Marriage Builders
Posted By: IntuitionGMH am i really here? typing this? now? - 12/05/15 04:50 AM
I found MB while looking for answers on how to feel about the affair my husband finally admitted after 2 years of my suspicions. Long story short, it went on for about 3.5 yrs. with my so called best friend. I saw the signs, questioned him...After he finally admitted it he said "Did you think I would admit thing when you asked me if I was having an affair?" That was after he finally admitted to everything. Geez..yah! So now he has contacted her to say WE will no longer have contact with her. Now my WS is saying he is depressed...how nice...I have been depressed for 3 years as he has been unemotionally available...BUT...now that he has been exposed HE IS DEPResSED. He saw a counsellor. He is an alcoholic. He also was sending flirty texts to a mutual friend..thought it was cute. SO,,,how do I deal with his F,ing depression...Perhaps it is w/drawal from his former wonderful secret life that he no longer enjoys...Well..i have been going thru hell for the last 3 years..and I am NOT going to go thru one minute more. He has BEGGED me to stay...I said I would but, SO MANY THINGS NEED TO CHANGE...LIKE JUST ABOUT EVERYTHING WE do together and say together and think together...been married 15 years, together 17 years...he is 71, me 64 in a few weeks. Any SUPPORT would be so appreciated...this is the hardest thing i have ever done. My first husband had an affair with my best friend and i threw him out immediately...we were in our 20s,,,i had a career,,,Now I am retired and financially dependent on the WS. Tho...i would rather live my TRUTH and take a huge hit in lifestyle than continue with this farce....I guess I HAVE TO SAY I AM SORRY ..CAUSE IT WAS ALL MY FAULT HE CHEATED AND EVERY DAY FOR NEARLY 4 YEARS HE COULD HAVE WOKEN UP AND SAID..THIS IS WRONG...AND ENDED IT..BUT HE DID NOT.
Posted By: mrEureka Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 12/05/15 12:30 PM
Welcome to Marriage Builders, and I am sorry for the reasons that you find yourself here.

Marriage Builders is all about executing a proven plan that restores marriages like your own to the best state they have ever been in. We are not about providing emotional support while leaving you stuck in the mud. Sometimes, people do not want solutions; they just want to blog. We need to know what you want. Are you interested in a romantic, wonderful marriage with your present spouse, are have you simply had it and just want out? You need to make this decision, because your course of action depends on it. You are right that this will be the hardest thing you have ever done. That is why you can not just keep crossing the fence.

So, tell us what you want to do and we will help you put the plan together.
Posted By: apples123 Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 12/05/15 01:10 PM
Do you want to save the marriage? If not, just end it now.

But If you do want to save the marriage, there is a very specific plan to follow that would protect you and provide Just Compensation.



Can't we forgive and forget?

Posted By: IntuitionGMH Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 12/05/15 02:25 PM
Thank you. I do want to try my best to turn this around and have a better marriage cause we have always had issues about communicating. He has never understood my need to be treated the way I need to be treated...not the way he thinks I s/b treated..This plan has the Love Busters vs. Love Inputs which is what I was always trying to get him to understand. I am willing to go with the whole program that is $1000 for the year as I DO NOT want to be his accountability coach as he dwells in his depression and doesn't take responsibility for things. Is there a way to know how effective this program is? I am impressed that there are 68k members here so I think it must be effective. Thank you for your consideration.
The program is effective when both spouses stick to the program without taking any shortcuts.

Your husband is going through withdrawal. Have a look here at what Dr. Harley has to say about the problem, read down to the bottom of the page to read about withdrawal: Information on withdrawal
Posted By: IntuitionGMH Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 12/05/15 03:10 PM
thx. not sure how to start. d day was 27 Nov 15. WH gave up drinking and is going to counseling. now is depressed so i get he is in w/drawal. So..now what do i do? Just avoid talking about anything? wait til he recovers and then start the program? or start the program now? is he depressed due to no alcohol? he says he doesn't care about his BP.
i don't feel i should be comforting him after just learning the truth of a 3.5 yr affair.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 12/05/15 03:49 PM
Hi GMH, welcome to Marriage Builders. I am sorry for the reasons that have brought you here. The first steps he should be taking is affair proofing your marriage and following a plan of marriage recovery. If you sign up for the accountability program, they would assign you a coach and Dr. Harley would oversee the program. You wouldn't be holding him accountable. I would print off this list and start there this weekend. In the meantime, you would want to get the book Surviving an Affair. It explains the dynamics of an affair and the recovery plan.

We didn't all go through the MB coaching program; some used the materials and did it on their own. A couple can recover if they diligently implement the basic concepts on their own. MrEureka, for example, is in a fully recovered, romantic marriage and they did it without the coaching. My H and I were not successful on our own so we went through the program in 2007.

Quote
I do want to try my best to turn this around and have a better marriage cause we have always had issues about communicating.

I am going to suggest that your main issues are a) his alcoholism, b) his affair and c) the fact that you have both fallen out of love. This program can resolve b and c. Sure, communication might be a problem, but it not the driving factor in your marriage.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 12/05/15 03:50 PM
From Surviving an Affair, pg 66-67

The extraordinary precautions do more than end marriage-threatening affairs; they help a couple form the kind of relationship they always wanted.

These recommendations may seem rigid, unnecessarily confining, and even paranoid to those who have not been the victim of infidelity. But people like Sue and Jon, who have suffered unimaginable pain as a result of an affair that spun out of control, can easily see their value. For the inconvenience of following my advice, Sue would have spared herself and Jon the very worst experience of their lives.


Checklist for How Affairs Should End

_____The unfaithful spouse should reveal information about the affair to the betrayed spouse.

_____The unfaithful spouse should make a commitment to the betrayed spouse to never see or talk to the lover OP again.

_____The unfaithful spouse should write a letter to the lover OP ending the relationship and send it with the approval of the betrayed spouse.

_____The unfaithful spouse should take extraordinary precautions to guarantee total separation from the lover OP:

_____Block potential communication with the lover OP (change e-mail address and home and cell phone numbers, and close all social networking accounts; have voice messages and mail monitored by the betrayed spouse).

_____Account for time (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a twenty-four-hour daily schedule with locations and telephone numbers).

_____Account for money (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a complete account of all money spent).

_____Spend leisure time together.

_____Change jobs and relocate if necessary.

_____Avoid overnight separation.

_____Allow technical accountability.

_____ Expose affair to family members, clergy, and/or friends.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 12/05/15 03:51 PM
Originally Posted by IntuitionGMH
hank you. I do want to try my best to turn this around and have a better marriage cause we have always had issues about communicating. He has never understood my need to be treated the way I need to be treated...not the way he thinks I s/b treated.

Can you be more specific?

And would he sign up here and speak to us?
Posted By: apples123 Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 12/05/15 04:57 PM
Don't underestimate the power of changing environment (moving). This can help remove affair triggers and make other addictions easier to overcome. I see a lot of people resist this step but it is so helpful.
Posted By: IntuitionGMH Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 12/05/15 05:06 PM
not sure how this works. newbie here. i have had support from 2 members . can i reply to an individual or do i just reply and it gets posted on my "thread"...
i guess i would like to reply to the individual who responded to my post..not just a general reply...sorry, but could you please help me out with this. i have not been a blogger and i am over 12 so i have limited computer skills!! thx
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 12/05/15 05:26 PM
Originally Posted by IntuitionGMH
not sure how this works. newbie here. i have had support from 2 members . can i reply to an individual or do i just reply and it gets posted on my "thread"...
i guess i would like to reply to the individual who responded to my post..not just a general reply...sorry, but could you please help me out with this. i have not been a blogger and i am over 12 so i have limited computer skills!! thx
MB doesn't allow PMs so you would reply here on your thread.

Is the OW (other woman) married?

Who all have you exposed his affair to? Do you have children?
Posted By: IntuitionGMH Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 12/05/15 05:48 PM
The OW WAS my best friend. She and my WH carried on for 3.5 yrs. WH repeatedly denied my suspicions over the last 2 years. I have been unhappy and w/drawn during that time and felt I didn't know my husband any more. Having said that, our friendship has waned over this time period ..and I just felt I was keeping them together by maintaining contact with her...setting up their dates!!!!

At least now I know I wasn't crazy. The affair has not been exposed to anyone other than the OW. WH called her and said I knew and have blocked her contact to me and he wants to work on the marriage and she agreed to honor his request to not contact him any more.

I have confided only in my sister. All our friends are interconnected and we both have
homes in 2 countries in close proximity. The OW and WH are 71. I am 63. the OW's
husband is a good friend..they were our best friends... My WH and I decided not to tell
the OW's husband ( our mutual friend). If he asks me why his wife and i have had a falling out I have decided to tell him to ask his wife(OW). I am not going to be the one to tell him.
Posted By: IntuitionGMH Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 12/05/15 05:48 PM
WH has 3 adult children and 6 grandchildren.
Posted By: IntuitionGMH Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 12/05/15 06:07 PM
It sounds like we need to get started on the program as fast as we can. I am leaning towards the full deal for accountability as I will just get blamed for wanting things my way if I push WH to do his "homework". He is depressed right now and wasn't forthcoming with the counselling session he went to last week...his first one...So, after 3.5 yrs of an affair and 2 years of my suspicions being denied, I now am dealing with a depressed WH who took a month to spit out the details...I am still being left out in the dark. UNLESS I take the initiative to talk to him about things. He acts like I am the problem b/c I looked into things he was doing online. His whole life was secret...I don't feel like I want to be the "leader"..i feel I could use some compassion . I am sad..I don't want to be the FIXER.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 12/05/15 06:07 PM
Originally Posted by IntuitionGMH
not sure how this works. newbie here. i have had support from 2 members . can i reply to an individual or do i just reply and it gets posted on my "thread"...
i guess i would like to reply to the individual who responded to my post..not just a general reply...sorry, but could you please help me out with this. i have not been a blogger and i am over 12 so i have limited computer skills!! thx

GMH, all you do is click on the "quote" button at the bottom of the post to which you want to respond. Their post will appear in quotes and you can click below it and write your post.
Posted By: mrEureka Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 12/05/15 06:11 PM
Originally Posted by IntuitionGMH
i don't feel i should be comforting him after just learning the truth of a 3.5 yr affair.
And we don't blame you. Nobody feels like it, especially when under such circumstances, he should be comforting you! It is important to understand that a successful recovery involves doing things that don't feel right in the beginning. Feelings follow actions. That is why you need to follow a plan. You need something besides feelings to guide your actions.

The MB coaching program is an excellent investment when both spouses are not fully committed to follow the program. If you are both fully in, then you can do it with just the books. (Although to be honest, my wife and I got excellent guidance from Dr. Harley directly by being callers on the radio program. That helped a lot.) In your case, you are dealing with some heavy-weight secondary issues. You are going to need all the help you can get.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 12/05/15 06:12 PM
Originally Posted by IntuitionGMH
It sounds like we need to get started on the program as fast as we can. I am leaning towards the full deal for accountability as I will just get blamed for wanting things my way if I push WH to do his "homework". He is depressed right now and wasn't forthcoming with the counselling session he went to last week...his first one...So, after 3.5 yrs of an affair and 2 years of my suspicions being denied, I now am dealing with a depressed WH who took a month to spit out the details...I am still being left out in the dark. UNLESS I take the initiative to talk to him about things. He acts like I am the problem b/c I looked into things he was doing online. His whole life was secret...I don't feel like I want to be the "leader"..i feel I could use some compassion . I am sad..I don't want to be the FIXER.

GMH, I know how you feel, but you need to be the "leader" in your self protection. You can't count on your H to do that. I would print up that check list, take it to him and tell him this is what needs to happen. That is a NON NEGOTIABLE list of precautions because anything less will be harmful to you.

Take that list to him TODAY and tell him this what you need from his right now. Talk to him about joining the MB program and get signed up. Ask him to sign up on the forum and post to us.

And why is he wasting time in "counseling" at a time that your marriage is falling apart? That is a distraction that takes valuable time away from the most critical issue: HIS DAMAGED MARRIAGE. HE can attend men's only AA meetings to address his alcoholism, but attending "counseling" is not helpful.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 12/05/15 06:14 PM
Print up this article click here and the checklist below and take it to him today. Please tell us which of these items he has done so far.

From Surviving an Affair, pg 66-67

The extraordinary precautions do more than end marriage-threatening affairs; they help a couple form the kind of relationship they always wanted.

These recommendations may seem rigid, unnecessarily confining, and even paranoid to those who have not been the victim of infidelity. But people like Sue and Jon, who have suffered unimaginable pain as a result of an affair that spun out of control, can easily see their value. For the inconvenience of following my advice, Sue would have spared herself and Jon the very worst experience of their lives.


Checklist for How Affairs Should End

_____The unfaithful spouse should reveal information about the affair to the betrayed spouse.

_____The unfaithful spouse should make a commitment to the betrayed spouse to never see or talk to the lover OP again.

_____The unfaithful spouse should write a letter to the lover OP ending the relationship and send it with the approval of the betrayed spouse.

_____The unfaithful spouse should take extraordinary precautions to guarantee total separation from the lover OP:

_____Block potential communication with the lover OP (change e-mail address and home and cell phone numbers, and close all social networking accounts; have voice messages and mail monitored by the betrayed spouse).

_____Account for time (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a twenty-four-hour daily schedule with locations and telephone numbers).

_____Account for money (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a complete account of all money spent).

_____Spend leisure time together.

_____Change jobs and relocate if necessary.

_____Avoid overnight separation.

_____Allow technical accountability.

_____ Expose affair to family members, clergy, and/or friends.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 12/05/15 06:17 PM
]
Originally Posted by IntuitionGMH
UNLESS I take the initiative to talk to him about things. He acts like I am the problem b/c I looked into things he was doing online. His whole life was secret...I don't feel like I want to be the "leader"..i feel I could use some compassion . I am sad..I don't want to be the FIXER.

You can't "fix" him, but it is UP TO YOU to set your boundaries and make them very clear to him. If you don't do that, then you are in for more of the same. You can't expect a selfish drunk to take the lead in protecting you. THAT IS YOUR JOB.

Give him your conditions and tell him this is what you expect.
Posted By: IntuitionGMH Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 12/05/15 06:28 PM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by IntuitionGMH
not sure how this works. newbie here. i have had support from 2 members . can i reply to an individual or do i just reply and it gets posted on my "thread"...
i guess i would like to reply to the individual who responded to my post..not just a general reply...sorry, but could you please help me out with this. i have not been a blogger and i am over 12 so i have limited computer skills!! thx


GMH, all you do is click on the "quote" button at the bottom of the post to which you want to respond. Their post will appear in quotes and you can click below it and write your post.


ok...does this work..i have clicked on quote and am typing ..fingers crossed cause i am so needing to hear what you have to say to me.
Posted By: apples123 Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 12/05/15 06:44 PM
Well done. You are a smart lady. You can do this.

You REALLY need to expose this. Keep his dirty little secret enables him to continue the affair at a later date. It also prevents you from getting support during this time.
Posted By: apples123 Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 12/05/15 06:46 PM
what to do with an unfaithful husband
Posted By: IntuitionGMH Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 12/05/15 06:46 PM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by IntuitionGMH
It sounds like we need to get started on the program as fast as we can. I am leaning towards the full deal for accountability as I will just get blamed for wanting things my way if I push WH to do his "homework". He is depressed right now and wasn't forthcoming with the counselling session he went to last week...his first one...So, after 3.5 yrs of an affair and 2 years of my suspicions being denied, I now am dealing with a depressed WH who took a month to spit out the details...I am still being left out in the dark. UNLESS I take the initiative to talk to him about things. He acts like I am the problem b/c I looked into things he was doing online. His whole life was secret...I don't feel like I want to be the "leader"..i feel I could use some compassion . I am sad..I don't want to be the FIXER.

GMH, I know how you feel, but you need to be the "leader" in your self protection. You can't count on your H to do that. I would print up that check list, take it to him and tell him this is what needs to happen. That is a NON NEGOTIABLE list of precautions because anything less will be harmful to you.

Take that list to him TODAY and tell him this what you need from his right now. Talk to him about joining the MB program and get signed up. Ask him to sign up on the forum and post to us.

And why is he wasting time in "counseling" at a time that your marriage is falling apart? That is a distraction that takes valuable time away from the most critical issue: HIS DAMAGED MARRIAGE. HE can attend men's only AA meetings to address his alcoholism, but attending "counseling" is not helpful.
WH is going to counseling to talk about things that happened in his childhood that he needs to talk about. I think it is related to why he needs to drink every day. He has quit drinking now that he has "confessed" but I told him it would not stick unless he fixes WHY he is drinking. He says he can quit. He has done it before. He decides when he quits and he decides when to start again. We have been married 15 years BTW.

i have printed out the sheet, we have made a start on the list. He says I need to get a new phone cause his is now trashed but i want HIM to go and get a new phone ..i will not set things up "nice" for him so he can blame me for controlling him..he will have to do the leg work on being accountable...thx for your strong urgings...i need it.
Posted By: apples123 Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 12/05/15 06:48 PM
Can you go to get new phones together as an outing? Have a nice lunch or dinner and go to the store?
Posted By: apples123 Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 12/05/15 06:52 PM
Listen to Melody; she hasbeen sober for 30 years
Posted By: apples123 Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 12/05/15 06:54 PM
What is counseling supposed to fix about a childhood that ended 50 years ago? Counseling is usually an expensive time waster. He needs to take action about the problems of today.
Posted By: apples123 Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 12/05/15 06:57 PM
Exposure is when you ( not him) tell all your/his friends and family as well the affair partner's friends and family about the affair and ask for their support of your marriage. Please dont let a cheater talk you into keeping their secrets. Affairs thrive on secrecy. Exposure kills the fantasy.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 12/05/15 07:24 PM
Originally Posted by IntuitionGMH
[WH is going to counseling to talk about things that happened in his childhood that he needs to talk about. I think it is related to why he needs to drink every day. He has quit drinking now that he has "confessed" but I told him it would not stick unless he fixes WHY he is drinking. He says he can quit. He has done it before. He decides when he quits and he decides when to start again. We have been married 15 years BTW.

He won't be improving from sitting in a counseling office flapping his gums. The only person htat helps is the counselors bank account. It has nothing to do with his childhood, it has every thing to do with his adult choices. Talking about his "childhood" is a needless distraction that takes time away from resolving his drinking problems and his marriage problems.

He needs to go to a mens only AA group and get a sponsor to hold him accountable.

So please encourage him to stop this counseling nonsense and address his problems. If he doesn't, he won't have a marriage left by the time he is done wasting his time sitting in a counseling office.

Quote
i have printed out the sheet, we have made a start on the list. He says I need to get a new phone cause his is now trashed but i want HIM to go and get a new phone ..i will not set things up "nice" for him so he can blame me for controlling him..he will have to do the leg work on being accountable...thx for your strong urgings...i need it.

Hand him the checklist and tell him this needs to get done NOW if he wants to stay married.
Posted By: IntuitionGMH Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 12/05/15 08:01 PM


Hand him the checklist and tell him this needs to get done NOW if he wants to stay married. [/quote]

ok. i have the checklist in hand and as soon as he comes home from golf i will give it to him.

we have done everything on the checklist except expose the affair. i have confided in my sister only. i know the husband of the OW is a womanizer and has a reputation..his wife(my so called best friend and now known as the OW) told me that her husband slept with her friend several years ago.

my sister and i talked about telling the husband of the OW but we both figure he might not care as he is a cheater too. hey, it gets better, a few years ago the OW announced she had a son from an affair she had with a married man..she gave up the son but they found each other a few years ago.

AND, this is not my WH's first affair with a best friend. He was living with a gal for 14 years and had an affair with her best friend,,,but he figured it was ok cause she had affairs on him.

WTF is wrong with me..I have a moral code that apparently is out of date. I could have had affairs with most of my best friend's husbands..they certainly have hit on me...BUT...i have always thought how selfish it was and how many people would be hurt and never went there. There is love around every corner if you want it..but GAWD, one has to have some personal control don't they??????

At any rate, I am really struggling with the expose situation. He is afraid he will be the laughing stock of all his golf buddies and he won't be able to show his face with all his golf buddies....about 15 of them!!! which means we won't be coming to the USA in the winter any more from up north. I asked him how he could actually golf and be friends with the OW husband and he said he would have to think about that....Good question was what he said..tho he hasn't yet told me his conclusion.

This is so sick. The OW is not here in the USA right now but her husband is and we see him socially. The OW is planning to come down to the USA in the new year..Jan 1..but now that she knows I know and the BH has ended this, I don't know if she will still come down here. We live about 10 blocks apart and there is a lot of chance they will see each other. I told my WH if he sees her anywhere such as grocery store or on the street then he is to turn and walk away and not speak one word to her.

So,,,,I am so reluctant to expose to her husband. All 3 of them are serial adulterers and liars. Why the h... do I even want to stay in this situation??? My WH says he can't imagine life w/o me and has begged me to stay. I wonder if it is just because he doesn't want to look like the fool he has become and be embarrassed in front of his friends. I really can't believe anything he says any more. Should I even waste time on the program? And yes, he needs to go to AA, which he says he doesn't need either., He will just quit on his own. At a loss,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,so sad, so mad, so sorry,,,,I get it that we had issues but he was impossible to talk to and I always said if we didn't work things out as they came up there would be no hope for us and I guess i was right....And so ends my journal...thx for listening...I am so grateful for Marriage Builders..it really makes sense to ME....
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 12/05/15 08:15 PM
Originally Posted by IntuitionGMH
The affair has not been exposed to anyone other than the OW. WH called her and said I knew and have blocked her contact to me and he wants to work on the marriage and she agreed to honor his request to not contact him any more.

I have confided only in my sister. All our friends are interconnected and we both have
homes in 2 countries in close proximity. The OW and WH are 71. I am 63. the OW's
husband is a good friend..they were our best friends... My WH and I decided not to tell
the OW's husband ( our mutual friend).[\qThe affair has not been exposed to anyone other than the OW. WH called her and said I knew and have blocked her contact to me and he wants to work on the marriage and she agreed to honor his request to not contact him any more.

I have confided only in my sister. All our friends are interconnected and we both have
homes in 2 countries in close proximity. The OW and WH are 71. I am 63. the OW's
husband is a good friend..they were our best friends... My WH and I decided not to tell
the OW's husband ( our mutual friend).

When will you be telling the OW's BH???
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 12/05/15 08:22 PM
Have you read this? Exposure 101

The OW's BH is your most important exposure target and it needs to be done now.
Posted By: IntuitionGMH Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 12/05/15 08:24 PM
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Originally Posted by IntuitionGMH
The affair has not been exposed to anyone other than the OW. WH called her and said I knew and have blocked her contact to me and he wants to work on the marriage and she agreed to honor his request to not contact him any more.

I have confided only in my sister. All our friends are interconnected and we both have
homes in 2 countries in close proximity. The OW and WH are 71. I am 63. the OW's
husband is a good friend..they were our best friends... My WH and I decided not to tell
the OW's husband ( our mutual friend).[\qThe affair has not been exposed to anyone other than the OW. WH called her and said I knew and have blocked her contact to me and he wants to work on the marriage and she agreed to honor his request to not contact him any more.

I have confided only in my sister. All our friends are interconnected and we both have
homes in 2 countries in close proximity. The OW and WH are 71. I am 63. the OW's
husband is a good friend..they were our best friends... My WH and I decided not to tell
the OW's husband ( our mutual friend).

When will you be telling the OW's BH???

well. it sounds like the sooner the better. i am reading on this blog that there is a better chance of saving our marriage if the OW's BH knows. So, he is a friend of both of ours...THEY WERE OUR BEST FRIENDS....do I tell the OW's BH or does my WH tell him or do we both do it? I had agreed with my WH NOT to tell the OW's BH.... but maybe now i know better and have to go thru with this...I am shaking as i write this. I am sure my WH will threaten divorce if I say this needs to be done. He likes to throw that out every time i do something he doesn't like.
Posted By: apples123 Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 12/05/15 08:35 PM
Dont tell him. Just do it. Read the exposure 101 because you want to expose it to everyone at once.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 12/05/15 08:44 PM
Originally Posted by IntuitionGMH
ok. i have the checklist in hand and as soon as he comes home from golf i will give it to him.

we have done everything on the checklist except expose the affair. i have confided in my sister only. i know the husband of the OW is a womanizer and has a reputation..his wife(my so called best friend and now known as the OW) told me that her husband slept with her friend several years ago.

my sister and i talked about telling the husband of the OW but we both figure he might not care as he is a cheater too. hey, it gets better, a few years ago the OW announced she had a son from an affair she had with a married man..she gave up the son but they found each other a few years ago.

So there you go. The Ow's husband should be the FIRST person on your exposure list. Go to the OW's facebook page and see if you can find her parents and family members. They should also know all about the affair. You should expose the affair to your family and close friends. The more people who know, the more people to hold your husband accountable.

Go read the link in my signature Exposure 101. It will tell you how to expose.

Affairs thrive on secrecy, so keeping it a secret only helps it thrive and grow and keeps the fantasy alive. As long as the OW's H does not know, your H is free to continue pursuing the OW. He will RESENT that you didn't tell him, so you need to tell him right away, without forewarning your H.

Exposure is the most EFFECTIVE you can do to recover your marriage. It effectively kills the affair, and kills the fantasy.

Quote
At any rate, I am really struggling with the expose situation. He is afraid he will be the laughing stock of all his golf buddies and he won't be able to show his face with all his golf buddies....about 15 of them!!! which means we won't be coming to the USA in the winter any more from up north. I asked him how he could actually golf and be friends with the OW husband and he said he would have to think about that....Good question was what he said..tho he hasn't yet told me his conclusion.

Yeah, he is just afraid it will ruin his affair. Period. And he should be embarrassed. Nothing wrong with that. Maybe he will stop doing embarrassing things.

The OW husband needs to know NOW so he can protect himself from your hhusband. The OW H won't want to have anything to do with your husband when he knows.

Quote
This is so sick. The OW is not here in the USA right now but her husband is and we see him socially.

Yes, it is SICK. And cruel and manipulative. Don't be part of the cruelty and manipulation by keeping this dirty secret for the cheaters. Don't protect them, protect the OW husband.

Quote
The OW is planning to come down to the USA in the new year..Jan 1..but now that she knows I know and the BH has ended this, I don't know if she will still come down here. We live about 10 blocks apart and there is a lot of chance they will see each other. I told my WH if he sees her anywhere such as grocery store or on the street then he is to turn and walk away and not speak one word to her.

That is not a solution. the solution is to MOVE AWAY. You are facing a long term affair. You won't be able to recover if he contirnually runs into his lover. If you don't expose and move away, THE AFFAIR WILL NEVER END becasue he will be perpetually triggered.

Do you want to recover your marriage? Or do you want to spend the next 10 years dealing with an active affair? The choice is yours today. If you don't take very strong action NOW, you are damning yourself to a life of hell.

Posted By: MelodyLane Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 12/05/15 08:48 PM
Originally Posted by IntuitionGMH
[
well. it sounds like the sooner the better. i am reading on this blog that there is a better chance of saving our marriage if the OW's BH knows. So, he is a friend of both of ours...THEY WERE OUR BEST FRIENDS....do I tell the OW's BH or does my WH tell him or do we both do it? I had agreed with my WH NOT to tell the OW's BH.... but maybe now i know better and have to go thru with this...I am shaking as i write this. I am sure my WH will threaten divorce if I say this needs to be done. He likes to throw that out every time i do something he doesn't like.

Of course your cheater husband does not want you to tell the OW's husband. IT WILL INTERFERE WITH HIS AFFAIR. You should call the man on your own without telling your husband and tell him all about the affair.

But don't stop there. The affair should be exposed to everyone, family, friends, children, the OW's family. Without warning the cheaters.

Your husband is NOT the best friend of this man. He is his ENEMY. And the sooner he knows, the faster he can protect himself.
Posted By: apples123 Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 12/05/15 09:32 PM
Also don't believe any thing she said about her H. Cheaters lie.
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
You should call the man on your own without telling your husband and tell him all about the affair.

But don't stop there. The affair should be exposed to everyone, family, friends, children, the OW's family. Without warning the cheaters.
Intuition, I hope that you will do this. Please take an hour or two and gather all of your exposure targets, and then get it done in one fell swoop. Do NOT be tempted to just do a couple and "see what happens". Do it ALL. At once.

Yes he may be very angry after exposure, and he may threaten divorce. He may even sound like you just lost the prize...he WAS going to stay and work it out with you, but he "can't live with someone who betrays him like this" <---do you see anything wrong with this picture?

If you read enough threads here, you will see that many WS threaten divorce and very few follow through. They are all talk and no action. Their affair high has caused them to be too lazy to do the work.

I read to catch up just now, and I'm so happy for you that you are posting to the forum and also obviously beginning to learn Marriage Builders. But I have to say that I about lost my dinner when I read that you were worried about what your husband's 15 golf friends will think of him. You NEED to be concentrating on exposure right now, but just in case you are wavering about doing exposure, please have a read here: Marriage Builders False Recovery Thread

You do NOT want that ^^ to be you in six months from now!
Posted By: IntuitionGMH Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 12/06/15 04:31 AM
okay, i need to ask you if you have heard of anything like this. D Day was Nov 21 and my WH called the OW Nov 27 (while I was there and listening) and said he admitted the affair and that neither he or I would have any contact with her. she agreed to respect that. It started about 3.5 yrs ago. Later that night, after the mid day call, i was up getting water and the WS phone was lit up with a text about a local [censored] UP site indicating people available w/in 10 miles with a half naked woman picture shown. I took the phone to him and asked him about it. He said he didn't know anything about that and threw the phone on the floor and broke it. He has had this phone for a month and it is prepay , recycled number so a private eye I called said it COULD be just a leftover from the prior phone holder. My WS had insisted he had nothing to do with it....Of course I was suspicious and reacted wildly to the text as I was reeling from the final A admission just days earlier. I had suspected the affair for 2 years and was lied to all that time when I questioned him. The OW was my best friend and her husband is our best friend too.

So, we had a few nice days between D day Nov 21 and the call to end the affair Nov 27. Since the [censored] Meet UP text came Nov 28...my WH has been depressed and barely talks to me. I finally asked him about things today...why is he behaving this way? Today I also got a lot of feedback from this blog about needing to do the exposure. I have only confided in my sister.

Here is his response, pretty much, as far as I understand things.

He is "depressed and sad" because of the way I responded to the [censored] MEEt up text that he had no idea about. He said I was over the top the way I reacted and I should have calmly asked him about it and not come in to challenge him about it in the middle of the night...(it was 3am). He just can't come to terms with my over the top reaction.

I suggested he is using this to deflect the 3.5 year affair thing...all of a sudden he has turned the tables on to me.

I told him I confided in my sister and he was disappointed that I didn't confide in a counsellor. I said he had his OW to confide in for 3.5 years and I just told her and based on the info i am getting from MB, i need to tell the OW's husband at a minimum.

Again, he said if everyone finds out he won't be able to come to the USA in the winter and golf with his buddies. It will affect us in both Canada and the USA. I said well maybe I should be part of that decision.

He said he ended the A in Sep 14 and there were just a couple of encounters after that..no big deal, let dead dogs lie..don't tell the OW's husband...who he golfs with.

He said there were problems in our marriage and he hung in for 10 years then strayed (now married 15 years)..and why didn't I...? He thinks I don't like men cause I basically said they are all the same . He said,,so what is wrong with you that you didn't have an affair,,cause of your high moral standards? your's are way up there while mine are way down here? You think you are better than i am?

He said not to follow the MB typical information as everyone is different and labels don't fit everyone the same. I guess he doesn't like being called the WS..he is just a man whose physical needs were not met and he did what anyone would do to ensure he was looked after.

so, friends, i don't really know if this is worth moving forward....i guess i will tell the OW's husband and let the chips fall where they may. My WH is 71 years old...can he change? He has given up drinking since the phone call to the OW as a lot of his phone sexting was done at night when he was alone and lonely. I was at Yoga working my [censored] off to look and feel good...

Heard any of this jibber jabber before??? He has admitted that early in the marriage he could have worked harder at things..I know I have made mistakes too and I am willing to work on this...I told him it will take at least 1-2 yrs and if I see another text like that or hear of him in contact with the OW, yes, I will go back to square one just like I did when I saw the [censored] MEEt up text.

I don't think he really gets the brevity of the situation. He really thinks cause it was over Sept 14 it s/b forgotten. Well it was NOT over and I saw the proof of that just a few weeks ago when the Ow was out with us....the LOOK OF LOVE.... ever since that I put my foot down and refused to be with him unless he told the truth..and here we are one month later dealing with the truth..finally....
Sorry for being so long winded but I hope it is clear anyway...wondering if you can give me some perspective on this. I am really not sure why i want to stay in the relationship..I always seem to be the one doing the work..initiating the discussions.figuring things out..FIXING FIXING FIXING....but...sooooooo darn tired out....
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 12/06/15 04:41 AM
Originally Posted by IntuitionGMH
He said not to follow the MB typical information as everyone is different and labels don't fit everyone the same. I guess he doesn't like being called the WS..he is just a man whose physical needs were not met and he did what anyone would do to ensure he was looked after.

GMH, your marriage can be saved if you will change your focus. Your focus is on the irrrational rantings of a wayward husband when it should be on recovery. The comment above is particularly insane given that your H has no earthly idea how to save marriages. He only knows how to wreck them.

You have a small chance at saving your marriage if you can follow the advice here. If you won't follow the advice, then I view this as a hopeless case.

Your best chance is to expose the affair wide and far just as we instructed. That is the only hope.

Quote
The OW was my best friend and her husband is our best friend too.

You are not his friends. Your husband has been stabbing him in the back for years. Dont' become an accessory to his crime by helping your H trick him.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 12/06/15 04:43 AM
Originally Posted by IntuitionGMH
I don't think he really gets the brevity of the situation.

And he never will as long as you protect his secret. You enable him by keeping the secret. He won't get the gravity of this situation until you bring it out into the open and hold him accountable. You harm him by keeping the secret.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 12/06/15 04:56 AM
Originally Posted by IntuitionGMH
So, we had a few nice days between D day Nov 21 and the call to end the affair Nov 27. Since the [censored] Meet UP text came Nov 28...my WH has been depressed and barely talks to me. I finally asked him about things today...why is he behaving this way? Today I also got a lot of feedback from this blog about needing to do the exposure. I have only confided in my sister.

He is depressed because he lost the 2 greatest loves of his life: the OW and alcohol.

And is he is lying about the Meet Up text. He has likely been hooking with women there. But you can make an appointment for a polygraoh and give him the opportunity to clear himself.

Are you having the PI tail him? Because it sounds like he has led a very, very secret 2nd life for years.
Posted By: IntuitionGMH Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 12/06/15 05:34 AM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by IntuitionGMH
He said not to follow the MB typical information as everyone is different and labels don't fit everyone the same. I guess he doesn't like being called the WS..he is just a man whose physical needs were not met and he did what anyone would do to ensure he was looked after.

GMH, your marriage can be saved if you will change your focus. Your focus is on the irrrational rantings of a wayward husband when it should be on recovery. The comment above is particularly insane given that your H has no earthly idea how to save marriages. He only knows how to wreck them.

You have a small chance at saving your marriage if you can follow the advice here. If you won't follow the advice, then I view this as a hopeless case.

Your best chance is to expose the affair wide and far just as we instructed. That is the only hope.

Quote
The OW was my best friend and her husband is our best friend too.

You are not his friends. Your husband has been stabbing him in the back for years. Dont' become an accessory to his crime by helping your H trick him.

Ok, I will do it. I will expose this to the OW husband. That is as far as I will go tho. Thank you...you are right that I am listening to useless rantings from a desperate man who only knows how to wreck a marriage. You are absolutely right. My WH and his OW have ruthlessly stabbed us in the back for years and now have to face the music. Thinking back over the last 15 years of our marriage, it really hasn't been great...Very little support from him on any issues... I do love him but perhaps it is time for me to fly...Thank you...I will post after it is done. He has a friend visiting for the week so I may wait til he goes home , then expose...just a few more days....I know he has been wondering why our relationship has cooled. I need to get back to my moral high ground...something my WH just scorned me for....GAWD....it is so necessary to have an objective observer. Thank you again.
Posted By: apples123 Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 12/06/15 05:48 AM
You need to tell everyone . then they can help him discover how awful he is. You can focus on the recovery.

he is right about 1 thing. You should not Wake him up to discuss problems. Nothing good happens after 10 pm
Posted By: indiegirl Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 12/06/15 12:05 PM
Originally Posted by apples123
You need to tell everyone . then they can help him discover how awful he is. You can focus on the recovery.

he is right about 1 thing. You should not Wake him up to discuss problems. m


I'd say he doesn't have time to discuss anything anyway. He does your conditions, he does not discuss them. He has an awful lot of making up to do and no time to flap his gums or have any opinions on the matter.

The best thing for his depression is to get going making a worthy life he isn't ashamed of.


Originally Posted by IntuitionGMH
. I guess he doesn't like being called the WS..he is just a man whose physical needs were not met and he did what anyone would do to ensure he was looked after.


This is why you don't discuss the affair. He has nothing to offer but very poor excuses which will only encourage you to believe him a hopeless case who will hump table legs if you so much as turn your back. Exhausting!

I would encourage him into more doing, less talking. More checklist, less excuses. More future, less past. More Former Wayward Spouse who is open and protects. Less WS who blameshifts.

"I'm not impressed when I hear the excuses you made to yourself back then brought into the present when all that should be over. I want to see a completed checklist giving me renewed hope for our future. Talk does not impress me"



Posted By: indiegirl Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 12/06/15 12:14 PM
Quote
Ok, I will do it. I will expose this to the OW husband. That is as far as I will go tho. .


Then your exposure will not work. Limited, timid exposure does not work.

Your husband needs to see you have a zero tolerance for his secret second life. That any time he attempts it, you will tell the world all about it. You will ask everyone to keep both eyes on him.

He is counting on you to take all the responsibility upon yourself, to tire yourself. That will give him plenty of opportunity to sneak back to his secret second life once you are worn out with holding him accountable all by yourself.

Your husband doesn't want you to get any help with this. He doesn't want to consider how very unacceptable everyone will find this (it's perfectly acceptable when no one knows).

But more than anything he wants you to behave embarrassed, and ashamed, like you are the guilty one. (His classic line was telling you only to confide in a therapist as though you are ill. You do not need therapy, you need a lot of watchfulness and for him to QUIT it!) A lot of his fantasy rests upon blaming you, and treating you like an unreasonable wife.

If you are unashamed, brave, proactive in asking for help and have zero tolerance for his secret, for the hidden evil world he moves in,you will cure that mind set forever.

There is no other way. You either approve and condone his secret life or you expose it.

One way continues it, the other way ends it.

Your husbands reaction to exposure is a very important sign of how recovery will go. If he has any conscience left he will be very ashamed and embarrassed. If he has any of the right stuff in him he will start working towards a better reputation.


Posted By: mrEureka Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 12/06/15 12:54 PM
Originally Posted by apples123
he is right about 1 thing. You should not Wake him up to discuss problems. Nothing good happens after 10 pm
Limiting discussion in night time is not MB advice, but a personal opinion. While one should avoid love busters, that doesn't mean giving waywards free passes to use for stonewalling. I know people are functioning just fine after 10 pm. It is not beyond this guy to use any excuse, so I would not call waking him up a mistake without better understanding the full context.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 12/06/15 01:25 PM
Is there some reason you feel duty bound to help your husband do scuzzy things by automatically covering it up for him?

Do you think he expects/takes for granted your help in keeping his SSL secret?

It's not part of any vows I ever heard. I would blow up this SSL and assure your husband he should have known you would never help keep such things secret.

Dr H says affairs would never happen if people expected exposure immediately afterwards.

Posted By: TheRoad Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 12/06/15 01:58 PM
First big mistake is you did not read melody's guide to exposure.

If you did you would of not warned your WH that you are going to expose the affair.

Second big mistake is that you are not doing the exposure today. To delay exposing is only going to comeback to hurt you.
Posted By: apples123 Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 12/06/15 02:23 PM
Originally Posted by mrEureka
Originally Posted by apples123
he is right about 1 thing. You should not Wake him up to discuss problems. Nothing good happens after 10 pm
Limiting discussion in night time is not MB advice, but a personal opinion. While one should avoid love busters, that doesn't mean giving waywards free passes to use for stonewalling. I know people are functioning just fine after 10 pm. It is not beyond this guy to use any excuse, so I would not call waking him up a mistake without better understanding the full context.

At 3am to tell at him?
Posted By: IntuitionGMH Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 12/06/15 02:54 PM
Originally Posted by apples123
Also don't believe any thing she said about her H. Cheaters lie.
hmmmm...yes, the OW told me her husband slept with her best friend...maybe that was just a "decoy" so if I ever found out about her affair with my WH, i would have empathy...interesting ....thanks.i will consider that statement a LIE cause yes, she is full of them!!
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 12/06/15 03:13 PM
Originally Posted by IntuitionGMH
Ok, I will do it. I will expose this to the OW husband. That is as far as I will go tho.

That is a good first step! But you can't stop there. Don't be an enabler by keeping the affair a secret because your marriage won't survive. This is a very long term affair and it will take a major exposure to kill it. You must also make sure that they never run into each other again unless you want to deal with an on again, off again affair for years to come. Do you?

Exposure is the most therapeutic thing you can do for them and for your marriage. Here are the words of Dr Bill Harley, clinical psychologist and founder of Marriage Builders:

Originally Posted by Dr. Bill Harley, clinical psychologist and founder of Marriage Builders
"Exposure is very likely to end the affair, lifting the fog that has overcome the unfaithful spouse, helping him or her become truly repentant and willing to put energy and effort into a full marital recovery. In my experience with thousands of couples who struggle with the fallout of infidelity, exposure has been the single most important first step toward recovery. It not only helps end the affair, but it also provides support to the betrayed spouse, giving him or her stamina to hold out for ultimate recovery."

Originally Posted by Dr Bill Harley
"The reason for the wide exposure is not to hurt the unfaithful spouse, but rather to end the fantasy. Your husband's secret second life made his affair possible, and the more you can to to make it public, the easier it is for him to see the damage he's doing. Keeping it secret does damage, but few know about it. Making it public helps everyone, including the unfaithful spouse and lover, see the affair for what it really is."
here
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 12/06/15 03:33 PM
Originally Posted by IntuitionGMH
Thinking back over the last 15 years of our marriage, it really hasn't been great...Very little support from him on any issues... I do love him but perhaps it is time for me to fly..

Time to fly?? I am not suggesting that you leave! Your plan will result in the death of your marriage because your H will not change by enabling him and sweeping this under the rug. The plan I am suggesting is designed to give you the best chance to SAVE your marriage.

Do you want to save your marriage?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 12/06/15 03:38 PM
Originally Posted by IntuitionGMH
He has a friend visiting for the week so I may wait til he goes home , then expose...just a few more days....I know he has been wondering why our relationship has cooled.

Today would be an IDEAL time to expose. The OW husband has a friend visisting and this friend can give him support.
Posted By: thndrnltng Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 12/06/15 03:46 PM
She asked herself, on the previous page, if she really wanted to save the marriage. Either "yes" or "no" is a reasonable answer to that. I believe Dr. Hartley would say the same. But from a 67-year-old woman to a 64-year-old, let me ask you to think about this: How do you want to spend the rest of your life? Maybe it's just those 3 extra years I have on you, but I would not have it in me to be the enforcer, the shepherd, the investigator, the one at fault (not true, but it's a hard label to live with)...and if you don't have it in you, either, it's not because there's something wrong with YOU!

tl
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 12/06/15 04:05 PM
Quote
She asked herself, on the previous page, if she really wanted to save the marriage. Either "yes" or "no" is a reasonable answer to that. I believe Dr. Hartley would say the same. But from a 67-year-old woman to a 64-year-old, let me ask you to think about this: How do you want to spend the rest of your life? Maybe it's just those 3 extra years I have on you, but I would not have it in me to be the enforcer, the shepherd, the investigator, the one at fault (not true, but it's a hard label to live with)...and if you don't have it in you, either, it's not because there's something wrong with YOU!

The reason she is suggesting "flying" is because she is under the false impression that exposure will end her marriage when it is the opposite.

No one would fault her if she left the marriage, but she clearly stated she WANTED to save this marriage on the previous page; that is why she is here:
Originally Posted by IntuitionGMH
Thank you. I do want to try my best to turn this around and have a better marriage cause we have always had issues about communicating.
Dr. Harley [not "Hartley"] would certainly want to help her if she chose to save the marriage and she has expressed her desire to save it.

This program does not require her to become an "enforcer, the shepherd, the investigator, the one at fault;" it offers a program that creates a great marriage if done together. If the WS does not get on board, then separation is advised. Within 3 weeks!

Even so, whether or not she decides to save it, the exposure steps are the same. The affair is still exposed.
Posted By: IntuitionGMH Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 12/06/15 04:18 PM
Good morning friends,

I have slept on my conversation with WH yesterday where he told me what was wrong with me that i didn't have an affair cause my needs were not met.
he hadn't been talking to me since i confronted him about the hook up text record at 3am..he thought i was over the top
he has quit drinking and needs my support
he said he is so depressed he thinks about killing himself
he said he will start working on the marriage when he is ready but needs more time
he said he doesn't know why we should be together

sooooo.this is where i am at this morning:

i will do the exposure to the OWH
i am going to reiterate to him that he needs inpatient treatment...(he reminds me of my friend's husband who went to jail for child molestation and continued to say it was the child's fault..that is when my friend finally divorced him)


my question to you is:

our 15 year marriage has never been great....it is always my fault tho he is seeing his part of the problems early on now...he has left 2 wives and cheated on a long term girlfriend before me. he is 71 yrs old and figures he has 10 good years left and wants to be happy.


before outing him to his 3 adult kids (one of whom is a serial cheater)just like good old dad,

i assume the exposure will kill any chance of us staying together soo....with that in mind
do i just tell him i want a divorce now and let him keep his dirty little secret.....that way he is happy and maintains his illusion of being a great upstanding guy.

quite frankly, i don;t think our marriage has a hope in HELL....and I don't need to expose him to get back at him.....for revenge or anything. at this point in his life i really don't think he wants to change. he just wants to be happy,this rebuild takes minimum 2 years from what i can tell on this MB site!! (BTW, during this time he had another gal on the hook on FB......her husband is sick with cancer right now but he managed to send her a message saying the only thing missing from his hike a few weeks ago was Her.....not a word about her sick husband...I have banned him from seeing her as well....)

i am going golfing now and i am looking forward to hearing your very excellent comments. this forum is absolutely amazing....your comments are becoming my guide and keeping me sane.

thank you for your support...i am beginning to see the light.
Posted By: armymama Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 12/06/15 04:45 PM
Exposure has nothing to do with revenge. If you want to be married, you will need to follow the steps outlined previously. If you want to divorce him, then do so. But there still needs to be exposure of the infidelity, significantly to OWH and the adult children.

Why are you having such a problem in recognizing this? Were either of you married to other people when you met? Is this a 15 year affairage? Just asking....
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 12/06/15 05:02 PM
Originally Posted by IntuitionGMH
i assume the exposure will kill any chance of us staying together soo....with that in mind
do i just tell him i want a divorce now and let him keep his dirty little secret.....that way he is happy and maintains his illusion of being a great upstanding guy.

No, it is the opposite, NOT EXPOSING will kill any chance of you staying together. You WILL end up divorced if you help hide his secrets. Keeping his secret for him and his OW only serves to enable the affair because it fuels his fantasy and makes it easier for the affair to resume.

Even if you decide to divorce now, you should proceed with widespread exposure as an act of kindness unless you want to go through divorce with a fogged out wayward. Exposing the affair bursts his fantasy and makes it much likely he will remain fogged out. Exposure is like chemotherapy for cancer, it is therapeutic.

And honestly, we don't CARE if you are doing it for "revenge." What matters is that you expose and reap the benefits. Your feelings of "revenge" are irrelevant.

And I agree your marriage probably does not have a hope in hell. You have so much going against you, alcoholism and a history of cheating. He is also probably picking up prostitutes on the website you mentioned.

I would strongly urge you to get STD testing. Do not have sex with this man.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 12/06/15 05:03 PM
Originally Posted by IntuitionGMH
i assume the exposure will kill any chance of us staying together soo....with that in mind
do i just tell him i want a divorce now and let him keep his dirty little secret.....that way he is happy and maintains his illusion of being a great upstanding guy.
.


Personally I think it would be very uncaring to leave his poison bottles undisturbed and to close a curtain of secrecy around him and his destructiveness with no intervention or exposure targets to help him free himself. I think that would be the best revenge, actually.

But it's his problem if you don't want the marriage. In that case I would just tell as many people in your own circle as possible so they can support you through a personal recovery. Leave him to his own secret hell with no help getting out if that's what you want.

Most recovered former wayward spouses count exposure as their rescue ship. But you are under no obligation to rescue him.

Nor could you recover without it.

Posted By: MelodyLane Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 12/06/15 05:47 PM
The main reason to expose even if she has chosen divorce, is to a) help him and b) lessen the chance that she has to go through divorce with a fogged out wayward.

Keeping the secret also places her in awkward social situations where the OW is invited. If people know about the affairs, they won't make that mistake.

There are NO PROS to keeping an affair secret. None.
Posted By: living_well Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 12/06/15 06:03 PM
Originally Posted by IntuitionGMH
i assume the exposure will kill any chance of us staying together soo....with that in mind
do i just tell him i want a divorce now and let him keep his dirty little secret.....that way he is happy and maintains his illusion of being a great upstanding guy.
.


I only did a limited exposure of my serial cheating XH. Back at that time MB exposure was not emphasised the way it is now. However, it is my greatest regret that I did not expose far and wide even though I knew I could not continue to be married to him. Not doing so allowed him to spin his version of events leading to the divorce. Any subsequent attempt by me to give the true version of events would have been considered vindictive.

For example, after my mother died, my XH gate crashed the funeral and played the bereaved ex son in law. He would not have dared had he thought that people might tell him he was not welcome.

The most important of all are the spouse of the affair partner and children. With children exposure is life changing. Essential to tell the children that the behavior they are is seeing is not acceptable. If you do not spell this out, how will they know?
Posted By: thndrnltng Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 12/06/15 06:13 PM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Dr. Harley [not "Hartley"]

Everyone makes an occasional typo.

tl
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 12/06/15 06:24 PM
Originally Posted by living_well
Originally Posted by IntuitionGMH
i assume the exposure will kill any chance of us staying together soo....with that in mind
do i just tell him i want a divorce now and let him keep his dirty little secret.....that way he is happy and maintains his illusion of being a great upstanding guy.
.


I only did a limited exposure of my serial cheating XH. Back at that time MB exposure was not emphasised the way it is now. However, it is my greatest regret that I did not expose far and wide even though I knew I could not continue to be married to him. Not doing so allowed him to spin his version of events leading to the divorce. Any subsequent attempt by me to give the true version of events would have been considered vindictive.

For example, after my mother died, my XH gate crashed the funeral and played the bereaved ex son in law. He would not have dared had he thought that people might tell him he was not welcome.

The most important of all are the spouse of the affair partner and children. With children exposure is life changing. Essential to tell the children that the behavior they are is seeing is not acceptable. If you do not spell this out, how will they know?

Thank you for explaining this better than I did. You make a great point about looking "vindictive" after the fact. That is exactly what happened to me in my last marriage. Many people would not CHOOSE to include the wayward in events if they knew the truth.
Posted By: reading Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 12/06/15 06:35 PM
Expose.
Deal with the reactions of people, WH will be scary all over the place and threaten you with misc. things (text book).

You do not have to decide about whether to instigate divorce or if he does, go along with it. Move forward into the best outcome here......an honest approach to what is happening in your life presently and a strong footing for whatever happens into the future.

If you expose and deal with the toxic responses.....you will come out as a survivor of an affair. Married or not in the end. Being betrayed and brave dealing with it is a prize in itself.

Posted By: apples123 Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 12/06/15 06:49 PM
If he says he is suicidal, call 911. That is not something you can or should try to handle.

If they ask what is going on, tell them. He just confessed and possibly ended a long-term affair, stopped drinking alcohol and has been very depressed. Now he is talking about suicude and you are scared.
Posted By: TheRoad Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 12/06/15 10:28 PM
OP, lets not forget the OWH needs the truth. Even if your marriage is to end the OWH deserves and needs to know there is a fox in his hen house.

The OWH needs to know that his friend is not his friend and that he needs to know what his wife did with his friend.

For you to let the OWH to stay in the dark will only allow this poor man to continue to be abused by your WH and his WW. Do not doubt that affair is over or will not start up once you file for divorce.
Posted By: IntuitionGMH Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 12/06/15 10:47 PM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Quote
Ok, I will do it. I will expose this to the OW husband. That is as far as I will go tho. .


Then your exposure will not work. Limited, timid exposure does not work.

Your husband needs to see you have a zero tolerance for his secret second life. That any time he attempts it, you will tell the world all about it. You will ask everyone to keep both eyes on him.

He is counting on you to take all the responsibility upon yourself, to tire yourself. That will give him plenty of opportunity to sneak back to his secret second life once you are worn out with holding him accountable all by yourself.

Your husband doesn't want you to get any help with this. He doesn't want to consider how very unacceptable everyone will find this (it's perfectly acceptable when no one knows).

But more than anything he wants you to behave embarrassed, and ashamed, like you are the guilty one. (His classic line was telling you only to confide in a therapist as though you are ill. You do not need therapy, you need a lot of watchfulness and for him to QUIT it!) A lot of his fantasy rests upon blaming you, and treating you like an unreasonable wife.

If you are unashamed, brave, proactive in asking for help and have zero tolerance for his secret, for the hidden evil world he moves in,you will cure that mind set forever.

There is no other way. You either approve and condone his secret life or you expose it.

One way continues it, the other way ends it.

Your husbands reaction to exposure is a very important sign of how recovery will go. If he has any conscience left he will be very ashamed and embarrassed. If he has any of the right stuff in him he will start working towards a better reputation.
this is very helpful and i am getting to understand what he is trying to do. i go from being strong to being weak but you are helping me become strong again. i am going to do this today. i expect we will head to divorce but i really think that is better now. thank you. i feel calm and in control.
Posted By: IntuitionGMH Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 12/06/15 10:59 PM
Originally Posted by thndrnltng
She asked herself, on the previous page, if she really wanted to save the marriage. Either "yes" or "no" is a reasonable answer to that. I believe Dr. Hartley would say the same. But from a 67-year-old woman to a 64-year-old, let me ask you to think about this: How do you want to spend the rest of your life? Maybe it's just those 3 extra years I have on you, but I would not have it in me to be the enforcer, the shepherd, the investigator, the one at fault (not true, but it's a hard label to live with)...and if you don't have it in you, either, it's not because there's something wrong with YOU!

tl
thank you. i have told him i WILL NOT be the leader in this recovery...we will sign up for the program with an accountability coach ...it is time for just about everything to change here..I have been the brunt of all his problems for our married life. i will not FIX this for him..i am a strong, independent, smart, healthy woman who takes responsibility for her behavior and to be looked down upon because i did Not have an affair cause my needs weren't met is just too much to fathom at this point in the marriage. thank you for your thoughts.
Posted By: IntuitionGMH Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 12/06/15 11:02 PM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by IntuitionGMH
Thinking back over the last 15 years of our marriage, it really hasn't been great...Very little support from him on any issues... I do love him but perhaps it is time for me to fly..

Time to fly?? I am not suggesting that you leave! Your plan will result in the death of your marriage because your H will not change by enabling him and sweeping this under the rug. The plan I am suggesting is designed to give you the best chance to SAVE your marriage.

Do you want to save your marriage?
only if he does. i do not want to continue unless he understands that this is a serious matter and just b/c he thinks he ended it a year ago but it didn't end..he thinks it is old news and should just go away. it was alive and well just a few weeks ago.
Posted By: IntuitionGMH Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 12/06/15 11:06 PM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Quote
She asked herself, on the previous page, if she really wanted to save the marriage. Either "yes" or "no" is a reasonable answer to that. I believe Dr. Hartley would say the same. But from a 67-year-old woman to a 64-year-old, let me ask you to think about this: How do you want to spend the rest of your life? Maybe it's just those 3 extra years I have on you, but I would not have it in me to be the enforcer, the shepherd, the investigator, the one at fault (not true, but it's a hard label to live with)...and if you don't have it in you, either, it's not because there's something wrong with YOU!

The reason she is suggesting "flying" is because she is under the false impression that exposure will end her marriage when it is the opposite.

No one would fault her if she left the marriage, but she clearly stated she WANTED to save this marriage on the previous page; that is why she is here:
Originally Posted by IntuitionGMH
Thank you. I do want to try my best to turn this around and have a better marriage cause we have always had issues about communicating.
Dr. Harley [not "Hartley"] would certainly want to help her if she chose to save the marriage and she has expressed her desire to save it.

This program does not require her to become an "enforcer, the shepherd, the investigator, the one at fault;" it offers a program that creates a great marriage if done together. If the WS does not get on board, then separation is advised. Within 3 weeks!

Even so, whether or not she decides to save it, the exposure steps are the same. The affair is still exposed.
thank you for the clarification. i am going to expose today..going over very soon. am not alerting WH. i know now how to understand his reaction. i have no attachment to the outcome..either we work it out or we divorce and separation is just fine with me. I have a strong group of friends and family to fall back on. I would not be doing this w/o your comments based on your experience. Thank you.
Posted By: apples123 Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 12/06/15 11:10 PM
Btw,there is more than one place to golf in the US. You mentioned that several times, but the US is huge with numerous gorgeous golf courses. (Though it may need to go if it has come before the marriage.)
Posted By: IntuitionGMH Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 12/06/15 11:13 PM
Originally Posted by armymama
Exposure has nothing to do with revenge. If you want to be married, you will need to follow the steps outlined previously. If you want to divorce him, then do so. But there still needs to be exposure of the infidelity, significantly to OWH and the adult children.

Why are you having such a problem in recognizing this? Were either of you married to other people when you met? Is this a 15 year affairage? Just asking....
i don't know why i am having such problems with this. no, we both met a couple of years after we ended previous live in relationships. i guess it might be because i have always been a strong person and i can handle things..i don't have children...i have run my own business, traveled around the world, etc etc..i am capable and stand strong on my own...i guess i don't want him to be embarrassed by exposing to his kids,,,..i am protecting him i guess. why,??? i guess i don't have a need to put myself first..i am ALWAYS OKAY... I AM A survivor and i have never had the need to have an affair due to the number of people who would be hurt...i just keep busy with projects like decorating, painting, golfing, etc etc etc...and don't put my emotional needs as first priority and being past menopause..my sexual needs are diminished....
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 12/06/15 11:18 PM
Originally Posted by IntuitionGMH
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by IntuitionGMH
Thinking back over the last 15 years of our marriage, it really hasn't been great...Very little support from him on any issues... I do love him but perhaps it is time for me to fly..

Time to fly?? I am not suggesting that you leave! Your plan will result in the death of your marriage because your H will not change by enabling him and sweeping this under the rug. The plan I am suggesting is designed to give you the best chance to SAVE your marriage.

Do you want to save your marriage?
only if he does. i do not want to continue unless he understands that this is a serious matter and just b/c he thinks he ended it a year ago but it didn't end..he thinks it is old news and should just go away. it was alive and well just a few weeks ago.

Like I told you earlier, we will only advocate that you even try *IF* and only *IF* he fully meets all the conditions in the checklist commits 100% to a program of recovery. We are not interested in marriage at all cost. If he won't do those things, then separation would be recommended. Just so you know, we don't advocate staying in a bad marriage just to be staying married.

However, about the only thing that will motivate him to try is exposure. Exposure motivates him to try among the many benefits.
Posted By: IntuitionGMH Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 12/06/15 11:19 PM
Originally Posted by living_well
Originally Posted by IntuitionGMH
i assume the exposure will kill any chance of us staying together soo....with that in mind
do i just tell him i want a divorce now and let him keep his dirty little secret.....that way he is happy and maintains his illusion of being a great upstanding guy.
.


I only did a limited exposure of my serial cheating XH. Back at that time MB exposure was not emphasised the way it is now. However, it is my greatest regret that I did not expose far and wide even though I knew I could not continue to be married to him. Not doing so allowed him to spin his version of events leading to the divorce. Any subsequent attempt by me to give the true version of events would have been considered vindictive.

For example, after my mother died, my XH gate crashed the funeral and played the bereaved ex son in law. He would not have dared had he thought that people might tell him he was not welcome.

The most important of all are the spouse of the affair partner and children. With children exposure is life changing. Essential to tell the children that the behavior they are is seeing is not acceptable. If you do not spell this out, how will they know?
his daughters are married in their 30s with children. his son is in his 40s and is a serial cheater...he is having marital problems right now...are you talking children who live at home or older adults....what about his sisters who are in their 70s?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 12/06/15 11:20 PM
Originally Posted by IntuitionGMH
[i guess i don't want him to be embarrassed by exposing to his kids,,,..i am protecting him i guess. why,???


That is not "protecting him;" it is ENABLING him. There is a huge difference. You don't protect him by hiding his secrets for him, you become an accessory to the crime.

Your concern should go to his victims, not him. He is not the victim here. He is a very destructive person and the more people that know what he does in secret, the more people to hold him accountable.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 12/06/15 11:21 PM
Originally Posted by IntuitionGMH
[
his daughters are married in their 30s with children. his son is in his 40s and is a serial cheater...he is having marital problems right now...are you talking children who live at home or older adults....what about his sisters who are in their 70s?

They should all be told.
Posted By: IntuitionGMH Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 12/07/15 12:22 AM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by IntuitionGMH
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by IntuitionGMH
Thinking back over the last 15 years of our marriage, it really hasn't been great...Very little support from him on any issues... I do love him but perhaps it is time for me to fly..

Time to fly?? I am not suggesting that you leave! Your plan will result in the death of your marriage because your H will not change by enabling him and sweeping this under the rug. The plan I am suggesting is designed to give you the best chance to SAVE your marriage.

Do you want to save your marriage?
only if he does. i do not want to continue unless he understands that this is a serious matter and just b/c he thinks he ended it a year ago but it didn't end..he thinks it is old news and should just go away. it was alive and well just a few weeks ago.

Like I told you earlier, we will only advocate that you even try *IF* and only *IF* he fully meets all the conditions in the checklist commits 100% to a program of recovery. We are not interested in marriage at all cost. If he won't do those things, then separation would be recommended. Just so you know, we don't advocate staying in a bad marriage just to be staying married.

However, about the only thing that will motivate him to try is exposure. Exposure motivates him to try among the many benefits.
Melody, i really appreciate your insight. He has done all of the items on the checklist except for the exposure. Is it appropriate for HIM the WH to write a letter to the OWH and to his children and email them telling them of the affair and his SSL. I would approve the letter before it was sent. This is how we handled the OW. Although, he DID NOT PUT ANYTHING IN WRITING....he called the OW and read from a script and I was there listening and had approved the script. He doesn't want anything in writing as it might come back to haunt him...or be used against him in a divorce... OR IS IT ME WHO DOES THE EXPOSURE....IT SEEMS ODD THAT THE ENTIRE LIST YOU GAVE ME IS DONE BY HIM EXCEPT FOR THE EXPOSURE...Would appreciate clarification...he is an ex-oil patch executive and he has his sense of pride that he is someone who is successful...I guess...I just want to know if there is any benefit in me telling him that he needs to out himself this way..to the OWH and to his 3 adult children.
Thx so much
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 12/07/15 12:40 AM
Originally Posted by IntuitionGMH
[
Melody, i really appreciate your insight. He has done all of the items on the checklist except for the exposure. Is it appropriate for HIM the WH to write a letter to the OWH and to his children and email them telling them of the affair and his SSL.

No, you should do all the exposures on your own without forewarning him. He doesn't do the exposures, YOU DO. The check list applies to you too and that is one thing you must do. NOT HIM.

That is the affair proofing part of recovery.

The next step is marital recovery. He needs to commit 100% to giving you just compensation and recoering the marriage. So far, he is sitting around doing nothing, but you can show him this program.

Your exposures need to be done NOW so you can move onto next steps.

Posted By: MelodyLane Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 12/07/15 12:48 AM
Read this: Can't We Just Forgive and Forget?

GMH, I am hoping that you can move forward and take action on the advice we are giving. It seems we are covering alot of the same ground over and over again with no forward movement. I know you are in shock, but you still have to take action. Please get all of your exposures done today and tomorrow so we can help you move onto next steps.
Posted By: IntuitionGMH Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 12/07/15 01:04 AM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by IntuitionGMH
[
Melody, i really appreciate your insight. He has done all of the items on the checklist except for the exposure. Is it appropriate for HIM the WH to write a letter to the OWH and to his children and email them telling them of the affair and his SSL.

No, you should do all the exposures on your own without forewarning him. He doesn't do the exposures, YOU DO. The check list applies to you too and that is one thing you must do. NOT HIM.

That is the affair proofing part of recovery.

The next step is marital recovery. He needs to commit 100% to giving you just compensation and recoering the marriage. So far, he is sitting around doing nothing, but you can show him this program.

Your exposures need to be done NOW so you can move onto next steps.
ok, thanks, i will DO IT. you are right , he is just sitting around thinking it was no big deal and it will all go away and he will let me know when he is ready to start marriage building rather than marriage wrecking...
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 12/07/15 01:10 AM
Originally Posted by IntuitionGMH
[
ok, thanks, i will DO IT. you are right , he is just sitting around thinking it was no big deal and it will all go away and he will let me know when he is ready to start marriage building rather than marriage wrecking...


Good girl!! Get that part done and we will help you with next steps. smile
Posted By: IntuitionGMH Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 12/07/15 01:12 AM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by IntuitionGMH
[
ok, thanks, i will DO IT. you are right , he is just sitting around thinking it was no big deal and it will all go away and he will let me know when he is ready to start marriage building rather than marriage wrecking...


Good girl!! Get that part done and we will help you with next steps. smile
Okay...i will. thanks for your guidance..i am strong and will do it.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 12/07/15 03:31 AM
Originally Posted by IntuitionGMH
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by IntuitionGMH
[
ok, thanks, i will DO IT. you are right , he is just sitting around thinking it was no big deal and it will all go away and he will let me know when he is ready to start marriage building rather than marriage wrecking...


Good girl!! Get that part done and we will help you with next steps. smile
Okay...i will. thanks for your guidance..i am strong and will do it.
Good job. We will be here for you.
Posted By: IntuitionGMH Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 12/10/15 11:43 PM
I have spent the last 4 days waffling about exposure and who to expose to. Against your advice I have just today exposed my WH's 3.5 yr affair to the OW's husband (formerly known as our best friends...now known as the OW and OW'sH)

He laughed and said it wasn't possible. I gave him more details and told him my WH has called his wife to end it and my sister has emailed her to end their relationship as well. He came around and agreed this is a red flag wake up call for both our marriages. He will be talking to his WS next week when they are both in the same city...home for Christmas...how nice.
I am not going to expose this to my WH's adult children ..my step children. I know this is a weak exposure and I get that this could be a big problem in recovery. I think I am dealing with a narcissist really...he felt entitled to what he didn't get in the marriage so went outside for years...Now I feel he feels even more entitled. He is seeing a counselor and wasn't forthcoming after his first visit..Just feels like more secrets to me unless i PRY out the information. He is telling his side of the story..JUSTIFYING? He is at counseling session #2 right now. Will see how his attitude is after hearing I told the OW's H today...and told him about the exposure just before he went to the counseling session. Had to fit it all in around the golf game you know. I am reading the book Not Just Friends by Shirley Glass. It is like reading my story. One day at a time..D Day 27 Nov 15..
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 12/10/15 11:58 PM
GMH, there isn't anything we can do for you if you won't follow the advice. Good luck and best wishes!
Posted By: indiegirl Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 12/10/15 11:58 PM
Everyone in affair mode has behaviour in line with narcissism. When the affair goes away it does too. You enable him to face no consequences and then wonder why he doesn't experience any!

Originally Posted by IntuitionGMH
Just feels like more secrets to me unless i PRY out the information. He is telling his side of the story..JUSTIFYING? He is at counseling session #2 right now. Will see how his attitude is after hearing I told the OW's H today...


But you've decided to keep the A a secret, so why shouldn't he? You've decided the A is not a big enough deal to do anything differently for, so why should he? You've been told this behaviour us to be expected without exposure, so that's what you've chosen for yourself.

That's your call.

It's sad your children and his don't get any say in this though. How mistrusted they will feel when they find out you decided they wouldn't do as support. I wish them luck because theyll need it with no information to go on while more marital drama unfolds.



Posted By: IntuitionGMH Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 12/11/15 02:26 PM
Ok, thank you...i am proceeding very cautiously and am not a lost cause yet. My WH came back from counselling and we went out for dinner. Rather than pry out any info from him i waited til he told me something about the session. He said NOTHING. .i went to bed exhausted from the day...it took a lot out of me to expose him to the OW'sH yesterday and I had a huge headache.

I value everything you are telling me. I am reading and i am realizing clearly now that he has inappropriate boundaries with his daughter as well. She is hard on me and i have never felt supported by him and i now see that he must be sharing marital problems with her too about us. She was 17 when we met, now 34 , married w two kids. Just a day after D day she and he made plans for her to come here for a week holiday...they would have arrived today. When he told me after the fact that she had booked the flights which we paid for, i said No way...so the trip was cancelled. I need to give my head a shake..he does not get it.

He now tells me he is in a severe depression worse than ever in his life...he is 71. I guess he is in w.drawal based on the stages..so i am trying to be easy on him.......his 42 yr old son blames all his problems on his dad...he is unfaithful to his wife and spends time at strip clubs...his other daughter used to have anorexia...so his kids are all messed up......

I feel we are not moving forward in any way...so, if i expose this affair to his kids what do you see would be the benefit of it? I don,t have kids by the way....and his kids are from two different marriages. Don,t leave me just yet. I am trying hard here...

There is a financial component here. I quit working 15 years ago and am financially dependent on him. Splitting things will really FU our lives so perhaps that is a big part of my willingness to let things go. I know a lot of older couples who just live separate lives and i am not interested in finding another man so an option is just to emotionally detach and carry on with proper boundaries.

So, that last bit was me being completely honest with you....i would appreciate your thoughts on the financial bit....when my first husband had an affair i was working and all he saw was my dust..i did not stick around . 40 years later i am in the same situation but not as independent.

Thx...and please i need your comments..don,t write me off just yet.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 12/11/15 03:27 PM
Originally Posted by IntuitionGMH
There is a financial component here. I quit working 15 years ago and am financially dependent on him. Splitting things will really FU our lives so perhaps that is a big part of my willingness to let things go. I know a lot of older couples who just live separate lives and i am not interested in finding another man so an option is just to emotionally detach and carry on with proper boundaries.

GMH, to be honest, we have already given you the necessary advice. You are free to take it or leave it. I have already explained to you that your path of doing nothing will lead to divorce because the affair will be on again, off again. The only chance you have of saving your marriage is exposure and diligently following the extraordinary precautions checklist. That's it.

Affairs thrive on secrecy, so keeping the secret only enables the affair. When he divorces you, you will be competing with the OW for his income because you didn't kill the affair.

Quote
There is a financial component here. I quit working 15 years ago and am financially dependent on him. Splitting things will really FU our lives so perhaps that is a big part of my willingness to let things go.

Seems like you would want to avoid that. But that is ok, if you want to end up divorced. If you get serious about wanting to save your marriage, let us know and we can help. But we can't help if you refuse ot follow the advice.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 12/11/15 10:20 PM
Originally Posted by IntuitionGMH
Ok, thank you...i am proceeding very cautiously and am not a lost cause yet. My WH came back from counselling and we went out for dinner. Rather than pry out any info from him i waited til he told me something about the session. He said NOTHING. .i went to bed exhausted from the day...it took a lot out of me to expose him to the OW'sH yesterday and I had a huge headache.

I value everything you are telling me. I am reading and i am realizing clearly now that he has inappropriate boundaries with his daughter as well. She is hard on me and i have never felt supported by him and i now see that he must be sharing marital problems with her too about us. She was 17 when we met, now 34 , married w two kids. Just a day after D day she and he made plans for her to come here for a week holiday...they would have arrived today. When he told me after the fact that she had booked the flights which we paid for, i said No way...so the trip was cancelled. I need to give my head a shake..he does not get it.

He now tells me he is in a severe depression worse than ever in his life...he is 71. I guess he is in w.drawal based on the stages..so i am trying to be easy on him.......his 42 yr old son blames all his problems on his dad...he is unfaithful to his wife and spends time at strip clubs...his other daughter used to have anorexia...so his kids are all messed up......

I feel we are not moving forward in any way...so, if i expose this affair to his kids what do you see would be the benefit of it? I don,t have kids by the way....and his kids are from two different marriages. Don,t leave me just yet. I am trying hard here...

There is a financial component here. I quit working 15 years ago and am financially dependent on him. Splitting things will really FU our lives so perhaps that is a big part of my willingness to let things go. I know a lot of older couples who just live separate lives and i am not interested in finding another man so an option is just to emotionally detach and carry on with proper boundaries.

So, that last bit was me being completely honest with you....i would appreciate your thoughts on the financial bit....when my first husband had an affair i was working and all he saw was my dust..i did not stick around . 40 years later i am in the same situation but not as independent.

Thx...and please i need your comments..don,t write me off just yet.


Your call. Good luck.

Posted By: indiegirl Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 12/12/15 11:47 AM
One thing I would say is to see a lawyer. You don't have to take marriage saving advice if you don't want it, but you should get legal advice now, ahead of any divorce.
Posted By: IntuitionGMH Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 12/13/15 01:19 AM
I have just finished reading NOT Just Friends by Shirley Glass and she does NOT promote telling the adult kids. I have outed my WH to the OWH and my WH spoke with the OWH today as well. The OWH is shocked and understands this is a red flag for their marriage.
I am glad I did not out to my WH's adult kids. The affair is NOT secret to me or to the OWH. I appreciate all your help with this, however, I don't feel one size fits all. Many respected therapists do not condone outing to a lot of people.

So, I guess I will see what happens. Again, Thanks..I got a lot of strength from your comments.
Posted By: IntuitionGMH Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 12/13/15 01:21 AM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
One thing I would say is to see a lawyer. You don't have to take marriage saving advice if you don't want it, but you should get legal advice now, ahead of any divorce.
yes, i will. thanks.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 12/13/15 01:27 AM
Originally Posted by IntuitionGMH
I have just finished reading NOT Just Friends by Shirley Glass and she does NOT promote telling the adult kids.

Just so you know, Dr Bill Harley, clinical psychologist, author of Surviving an Affair and founder of Marriage Builders, recommends always telling the children and other family members. Lying to children and family members cannot be justified or defended.

The success of his program is based on wide spread exposure because it keeping it a secret hurts the wayward, the spouse and the family members. Expsure is most effective weapon against the affair. Affairs thrive on secrecy so keeping it a secret only serves to enable the affair.

Sorry, but you are getting bad advice that won't be supported here. If you don't want to follow the advice here, my suggestion would be to go to Shirley Glass's board.

Originally Posted by Dr Bill Harley
"The reason for the wide exposure is not to hurt the unfaithful spouse, but rather to end the fantasy. Your husband's secret second life made his affair possible, and the more you can to to make it public, the easier it is for him to see the damage he's doing. Keeping it secret does damage, but few know about it. Making it public helps everyone, including the unfaithful spouse and lover, see the affair for what it really is."

Dr. Harley on telling the children:

Originally Posted by Dr Bill Harley
My position on many aspects of marital therapy has been admittedly controversial when first expressed. His Needs, Her Needs was ripped by many therapists in 1986 when it was first published because they didn't believe that men and women's emotional needs were different. Today, there are very few that believe that anymore.

My position on conflict management (Policy of Joint Agreement) was also roundly criticized by some feminists as giving away women's right to independence. Of course, most of these critics were not in favor of marriage in the first place. But today, the idea of finding mutually adventageous solutions to problems in marriage is main-stream.

And, my position on radical honesty and transparency in marriage, which was definitely not in the tool box of most counselors when I first brought it up, is now becoming much more accepted by therapists working in the trenches.

At first, whenever I came up with a new idea, I'd try it out on the couples I counseled. My goal was always to "do no harm" in my effort to help. I was very concerned about unintended consequences. But as I created methods that were logical outcomes of my basic theory, I found that these methods worked amazingly well every time they were implemented. That's why I can speak with such confidence today. I've personally witnessed thousands of successful outcomes when couples learn to meet each other's emotional needs, learn to make decisions with mutual enthusiastic agreement, and learn to be radically honest with each other.

The same can be said about telling children about an affair. My experience with the positive outcomes of hundreds of families where an affair has been exposed to children has led me to encourage a betrayed spouse not to fear such exposure. In fact, to mislead children, giving other false explanations as to why their parents are not getting along, causes children to be very confused. When they finally discover the truth, it sets an example to children that dishonesty is sometimes acceptable, making them the judge of when that might occur.

An affair is an attack on children as well as the betrayed spouse. And it's true that children are deeply affected by this form of irresponsible behavior. But it's the act of infidelity that causes children to suffer, not the exposure of it. Facts point us toward solutions. Illusion leads us astray. That's true for children as well as adults.

Best wishes,
Dr. Harley
here

Originally Posted by Dr Bill Harley
Q: So, you do suggest telling our 10 year old son? Is this more than he can handle? He never saw any real unhappiness as my husband and I had a very low conflict marriage. I have been protecting our son from this truth. He still has hope that his dad is going to come home.
___________________________________
A: As for your son, the truth will come out eventually, even if you get back together again. And your son won't be emotionally crippled if he hears the truth. It's lies and deception that cripple children. He should know that your husband is choosing his lover over his son's mother. It's a fact. He's willing to ruin a family unit all for what.

When I first started recommending openness about an affair, I wasn't sure what would happen. But I did it because I knew it was the right thing to do. Now I know that for most couples it marks the beginning of recovery.


Originally Posted by Dr Bill Harley
The reason that children should know about an affair is that exposing it to the light of day (letting everyone know), helps give the unfaithful spouse a dose of reality. An affair thrives on illusion, and whatever a betrayed spouse can do to eliminate the illusion is justifiable. Mold doesn't grow well in sunlight.
here

Originally Posted by Dr Bill Harley
Q. How honest should I be about the A? (they are 7 and under)

A. Tell your children as much as you can about their father's affair, and how it affects you. There are some counselors and lawyers that strongly disagree with me on this issue, but I have maintained that position for over 35 years without any evidence that children are hurt by it. They're hurt by the affair, not by accurate information regarding the affair. Just make sure that you don't combine accurate information with disrespectful judgments. For example, you can say that the OW has taken their father away from you, but you should not say that she is home-wrecker (or worse).
here

Originally Posted by Dr Bill Harley
My basic approach to life is that radical honesty is valuable on many different dimensions. It keeps us out of trouble, it helps others understand us, and it helps others avoid the same mistakes we have made. Letting your children know the details of your husband's affair would help them in all three areas.

The more your children know about your husband's affair, the more careful he will be to avoid them in the future.

The more your children know about his affair, the more they will understand what you are going through in your recovery (by the way, you are doing very well -- keep up the good work!).

Being radically honest about your husband's affair with your children would also help them avoid affairs themselves. How it happened and how could it have been prevented is a great object lesson for children. I learned that I was vulnerable for an affair when I learned about my grandfather's affairs. The extraordinary precautions I've taken were directly related to what I learned about him.

It's the approach I've always taken, and while it's difficult, especially for the WS, there's much more upside to it than downside.
Since I'd just posted this elsewhere, I can easily copy and paste: Voices of Experience - False Recovery

That's not a slam on you intuition, I just don't have much time online tonight due to UA time with hubby. smile I hope that you will read some of that thread (my post is at the end).
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 12/13/15 01:52 AM
There are some radio clips in here.
Exposing to Children
Posted By: apples123 Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 12/13/15 02:45 AM
Originally Posted by IntuitionGMH
I have just finished reading NOT Just Friends by Shirley Glass and she does NOT promote telling the adult kids. I have outed my WH to the OWH and my WH spoke with the OWH today as well. The OWH is shocked and understands this is a red flag for their marriage.
I am glad I did not out to my WH's adult kids. The affair is NOT secret to me or to the OWH. I appreciate all your help with this, however, I don't feel one size fits all. Many respected therapists do not condone outing to a lot of people.

So, I guess I will see what happens. Again, Thanks..I got a lot of strength from your comments.

Dr Glass's advice is internally inconsistent. On the one hand, she states Honesty is the only way through the affair. She then encourages spouses to keep the affair secret from the people who would hold them accountable. (This is an issue for a number of counselors.)
Posted By: mrEureka Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 12/13/15 12:31 PM
Originally Posted by IntuitionGMH
So, I guess I will see what happens. Again, Thanks..I got a lot of strength from your comments.
What is going to happen is that you are going to end up getting divorced.

At the very beginning of this thread, I asked you what you wanted to do. Recovering from an affair is extremely difficult. It requires doing lots of things that are counterintuitive. It requires laying your own misguided opinions aside along with those of self-proclaimed " experts", and following this successful and proven plan to the letter. You are now doing the worst thing, which is putting yourself through the grief of going halfway, and subsequently failing to build a romantic and affair-proof marriage. You would have been better off to just call it quits from the beginning.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 12/13/15 03:19 PM
Originally Posted by IntuitionGMH
He now tells me he is in a severe depression worse than ever in his life...he is 71. I guess he is in w.drawal based on the stages..so i am trying to be easy on him.......his 42 yr old son blames all his problems on his dad...he is unfaithful to his wife and spends time at strip clubs...his other daughter used to have anorexia...so his kids are all messed up......
.


It would be so nice if you did not believe lying to people is ok simply because they have troubles. Anorexia is no reason to treat someone like a Victorian insane asylum patient. She's ill, not crazy, or 'messed up'. How patronising of you to withhold information from her!

Does this glass person think it's ok to treat everyone, like well, glass? What if it had been the daughter who had found out and not you? Would glass advise her to lie to you?

I don't understand why his sons poor decisions in life is any reason to lie to him either, to be honest. He may be a liar, but you don't have to be. This son is still a grown up who can be given every opportunity to support his father. He either will or he won't: what is lost by trying? He may have copied infidelity habits from his father and so two families may depend on the light of exposure.

Overall you seem far too comfortable with secrets for an MB recovery which has zero tolerance for secrets.

Posted By: IntuitionGMH Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 12/16/15 03:36 PM
Originally Posted by mrEureka
Originally Posted by IntuitionGMH
So, I guess I will see what happens. Again, Thanks..I got a lot of strength from your comments.
What is going to happen is that you are going to end up getting divorced.

At the very beginning of this thread, I asked you what you wanted to do. Recovering from an affair is extremely difficult. It requires doing lots of things that are counterintuitive. It requires laying your own misguided opinions aside along with those of self-proclaimed " experts", and following this successful and proven plan to the letter. You are now doing the worst thing, which is putting yourself through the grief of going halfway, and subsequently failing to build a romantic and affair-proof marriage. You would have been better off to just call it quits from the beginning.
it appears to me that exposing to the children of the couple who are living with the couple should know about the affair. i don't see how exposing to three adult step children ( i don't have children) who don't live close, only one of which we are close to
can possibly be productive. they don't confide in us with their marital problems..
i just don't get it....they all live thousands of miles away...it is not like what i see described here..the 7 year olds etc.
Posted By: IntuitionGMH Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 12/16/15 03:40 PM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Originally Posted by IntuitionGMH
He now tells me he is in a severe depression worse than ever in his life...he is 71. I guess he is in w.drawal based on the stages..so i am trying to be easy on him.......his 42 yr old son blames all his problems on his dad...he is unfaithful to his wife and spends time at strip clubs...his other daughter used to have anorexia...so his kids are all messed up......
.


It would be so nice if you did not believe lying to people is ok simply because they have troubles. Anorexia is no reason to treat someone like a Victorian insane asylum patient. She's ill, not crazy, or 'messed up'. How patronising of you to withhold information from her!

Does this glass person think it's ok to treat everyone, like well, glass? What if it had been the daughter who had found out and not you? Would glass advise her to lie to you?

I don't understand why his sons poor decisions in life is any reason to lie to him either, to be honest. He may be a liar, but you don't have to be. This son is still a grown up who can be given every opportunity to support his father. He either will or he won't: what is lost by trying? He may have copied infidelity habits from his father and so two families may depend on the light of exposure.

Overall you seem far too comfortable with secrets for an MB recovery which has zero tolerance for secrets.

i have told my sister who supports me. I have told the OWH. It is not secret. His kids don't tell us all their marital woes...I don't get why we would? If they are told, I believe my BH should tell them...NOT ME! I will talk about this with the counselor on Thursday. Thx.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 12/16/15 03:41 PM
Originally Posted by IntuitionGMH
it appears to me that exposing to the children of the couple who are living with the couple should know about the affair. i don't see how exposing to three adult step children ( i don't have children) who don't live close, only one of which we are close to
can possibly be productive. they don't confide in us with their marital problems..
i just don't get it....they all live thousands of miles away...it is not like what i see described here..the 7 year olds etc.

Trust me, I have been here for 14 years and Dr. Harley NEVER says only expose to children who are in the home. He always says expose to close family and friends. Obviously, children are close family.

Exposure is always productive because it is therapeutic.

I just want to point out that you are arguing and lecturing people who have saved their marriages. Your marriage is a wreck that is on the verge of divorce.

I don't see the point in coming here to argue about the steps. Just reject them and move on to another forum.
Posted By: IntuitionGMH Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 12/16/15 03:47 PM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by IntuitionGMH
it appears to me that exposing to the children of the couple who are living with the couple should know about the affair. i don't see how exposing to three adult step children ( i don't have children) who don't live close, only one of which we are close to
can possibly be productive. they don't confide in us with their marital problems..
i just don't get it....they all live thousands of miles away...it is not like what i see described here..the 7 year olds etc.

Trust me, I have been here for 14 years and Dr. Harley NEVER says only expose to children who are in the home. He always says expose to close family and friends. Obviously, children are close family.

Exposure is always productive because it is therapeutic.

I just want to point out that you are arguing and lecturing people who have saved their marriages. Your marriage is a wreck that is on the verge of divorce.

I don't see the point in coming here to argue about the steps. Just reject them and move on to another forum.
you are right....i may come around after some counseling..but for now I just don't get it....i believe there is great value in the program and we NEED a structured program to get thru this. i never say never.....and i do feel that his kids should know..it is just that I am not going to tell them...his father, my WH, should tell them.. I will work to that end. I value everyone here. YEs, i am a bit angry but that is just because I am going thru so much and it is hard and i am doing my best every day...and coming here is about the best place I can go every day....otw it is HELL. Thx.
Posted By: IntuitionGMH Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 12/16/15 03:59 PM
Ok, i am going to suggest to WH that HE exposes to his three adult kids..What would be an example of what he would say?

We are letting you know that we are dealing with some issues in our marriage. I have been unfaithful in the marriage and we are taking steps to work it out. (do we tell them with who? she was my best friend and they have met her). Christmas is hard this year as we are not feeling in the Christmas spirit. In lieu of gifts and cards to you and the grandchildren we are donating to an animal rescue center. We are redirecting funds to counseling for our situation. We may not be able to have you visit during the next several months while we work on rebuilding trust and companionship as it will take our full time attention. I am sorry for the pain I have created to our family . I have quit drinking as I believe this has influenced my behavior. I am going to counseling and will for as long as it takes to resolve this situation.

any help would be appreciated..i am not sure just what should be said and i will have to coach my WH on this. he has told me he is depressed and doesn't want to send gifts or cards or anything this year...so , you are right, w/o the truth, they will think it is something THEY did wrong.....

again, thank you.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 12/16/15 04:08 PM
Originally Posted by IntuitionGMH
Ok, i am going to suggest to WH that HE exposes to his three adult kids..What would be an example of what he would say?
.

No, you should not ask him to expose himself. Don't make demands of him. Just do it yourself. There is no advantage in badgering him to expose himself. It will just lead to completely unnecessary conflict and will likely result in him spinning the truth.

The affair should be exposed by you. Don't make this so ridiculously difficult by pettifogging the issue. Just email the kids and tell them in a straightforward manner what has happened. You can tell your husband afterwards.

Dear kids, I am writing to ask you for your support of our marriage. To my great shock and disappointment, I recently discovered that your father has been having a long term affair with Sally Slut, a married woman whose husband plays golf with your father. I am devastated. Her husband has been informed and we are trying to save our marriage.

I am hoping to save this marriage and am asking that you use your influence with your father to persuade him to work on this marriage.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 12/16/15 04:59 PM
Originally Posted by IntuitionGMH
.

any help would be appreciated..i am not sure just what should be said and i will have to coach my WH on this. he has told me he is depressed and doesn't want to send gifts or cards or anything this year...so , you are right, w/o the truth, they will think it is something THEY did wrong.....

.


Right. They also need to know their father is not that responsible or reliable at the moment but that you are on it. You are doing a wonderful thing by offering him forgiveness, and you should take any credit or support you can get.

Also, if there any unsuppotive people who respond badly, you need to know that too.

Recovery is a long stint, a good few years, you need to know who your friends or enemies are while you the victim receive just compensation (you do, not him) so go find out directly yourself. It's also impossible to cover up, not just at Christmas time.

Originally Posted by indiegirl
Also, if there any unsuppotive people who respond badly, you need to know that too.

Recovery is a long stint, a good few years,
^^^ This. Absolutely!

intuition, none of us could know for certain what would pan out once we agreed to begin recovery. Recovery is long and arduous...constant tiny baby steps yes, but very tiring.

One of the biggest benefits of exposure (other than killing the affair dead) is seeing people the way that they really are. We've leaned on those who supported us when we needed a boost of energy to keep up the marathon of recovery.

I so hope that you will consider calling the adult children.
Posted By: IntuitionGMH Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 05/12/17 10:29 PM
It has been a year and a half since i first reached out when i found out my husband was having a long term affair with my best friend. you told me to expose this to friends and his kids. i just couldn't do it. you told me to go elsewhere. i did not. i am back now as i now understand why you told me to expose. we have 2 homes.. Canada and California and our friends are intertwined in both areas. the OW 's home is so close to mine in Canada i get her wifi signal. so, no exposure. my WH got cancer a few months after i left this blog and i put things aside until he was better. two months ago he was better and we went to California. i refused to go to a golf party at the home of the OW and everyone is now wondering what is wrong with ME since i don't like that nice person the OW. i have just said there has been a falling out. she sent me a letter asking me to be her friend again. i said NO, i would never be her friend again. my husband wanted to have the meeting but i said NO i will never be in the same room with them again. i spent years watching them together and i won't watch them for 1 second more. so folks. you were right. exposure was the right thing to do. I am now the problem, both of them have their secret intact except for my sister and friend who have to deal with my tirades and issues. i have triggers and have not been able to manage them with my WH. we are talking divorce now. i don't see any way other than to expose now. he went to a counsellor who told him i should "grow up and get over it" and stop acting like a child. so i don't have support from him, the counsellor. his cancer is in remission and he s/b okay for a couple of years. i am heartsick. i feel pain over my heart and i am not at all myself any longer. i cannot enjoy life any more. i have not handled this well. i should have listened to you . i STILL have issues about exposing as i guess i come from old school where you don't air your dirty laundry. so i waffle. so at this juncture. i am asking for your help once more. shall i just expose and divorce? OTW, i will be made out to be the 'bad guy.... my WH sure doesn't take any responsibility. he says he is sorry but he still wants to have his life return to the way it was before.. friends with her... so he can golf with her husband and go to the annual wrap up party etc. as far as i am concerned.. with 15 golfers, the wrap-up party could be at someone else home... if they had any shred of decency or concern for my feelings they would have not offered to have it at their home, knowing that is was NB for my husband to attend, particularly after he has recovered from cancer. I feel totally messed up in every possible way here. i don't trust my feelings any more. i am depressed and scared. if you wish to waste any more time of my issue here by responding, i will appreciate it. i just turned 65, he just turned 74...life is passing by and i really need to enjoy and not get myself sick over this... i nursed him with his cancer and so really even tho it is a year/and a half since i found out.. a year was set aside for the cancer.. so it is still fresh in my mind anyway. i suggested to him that we have another wedding ceremony and date as even this anniversary i was reminded of a time the OW even drove us to the restaurant we usually go to.. another trigger.!! triggers are everywhere. I want to move from our house that is so close the wifi registers here.. but my WH wants to stay as he can't handle the stress of a move as this disease is in the background..and i can't handle the stress of her house being so close,,,although she isn't there a whole lot..she spends time w here grandkids in another city much of the time...anyway i won't ramble on and on.. i am contemplating separation and divorce... what advice do you have, please?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 05/12/17 10:49 PM
My suggestion would be to read the thread again and take the advice. Expose the affair and then move out.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 05/12/17 11:03 PM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
My suggestion would be to read the thread again and take the advice. Expose the affair and then move out.
This ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Posted By: goody2shoes Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 05/12/17 11:23 PM
Does her husband know about the affair?
Posted By: IntuitionGMH Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 05/13/17 12:09 AM
yes her husband knows about it. i did tell him. he has not been loyal to her... i don't think either of them really care about loyalty to each other and obviously friends don't matter either. i have said hello to him when i have seen him but we have not spoken any more about it. so yes, he knows and they both planned this golf wind up party at their home... maybe they thought i would show up and all would be as before..but geesh..i watched the affair for years and i can't bear the thought of watching them look at each other one more time. maybe i should give me head a shake..they made a mistake now let's all move on.. that is what i wrestle with
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 05/13/17 12:13 AM
Originally Posted by IntuitionGMH
yes her husband knows about it. i did tell him. he has not been loyal to her... i don't think either of them really care about loyalty to each other and obviously friends don't matter either. i have said hello to him when i have seen him but we have not spoken any more about it. so yes, he knows and they both planned this golf wind up party at their home... maybe they thought i would show up and all would be as before..but geesh..i watched the affair for years and i can't bear the thought of watching them look at each other one more time. maybe i should give me head a shake..they made a mistake now let's all move on.. that is what i wrestle with
So what are you going to do? What is your plan?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 05/13/17 12:23 AM
Originally Posted by IntuitionGMH
.i watched the affair for years and i can't bear the thought of watching them look at each other one more time. maybe i should give me head a shake..they made a mistake now let's all move on.. that is what i wrestle with

I think you know the answer to that. The reason you are "wresting" is because you can't "move on." Your conflict avoidance and "sweep it under the carpet" approach doesn't work and won't ever work. Your emotions are telling you something is very wrong and you should pay attention.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 05/13/17 12:24 AM
Originally Posted by Dr Bill Harley, clinical psychologist and founder of Marriage Builders
"Infidelity is not something that can be swept under the rug. While those who have affairs want to forget about it and move on, those who are betrayed must take very specific steps before they can fully recover."
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 05/13/17 12:26 AM
Wouldn't you have "moved on" if you could do that? You have been trying to "move on" [ignore the problem] for years to no avail.

How is that working for you?
Hi, welcome back, but I'm sorry for the reason that brought you back. I am VERY HAPPY though that you did come back, and as I'm sure that you've seen, all of us are still willing to help. smile

A few select (easy) exposure targets will not work. If you do not plan to do a full exposure including exposing to your close golf friends, then there is not much that we can say to help. You will truly have to "pick your poison" for the rest of your life. frown

DO you plan to expose and move away? Because if you won't move, it's back to pick your poison. Plus you need to expose to the husband again. It is possible and highly likely that he thinks that all has ended between the two of them.

Can you please catch us up to date on a few things:

Has your husband quit drinking?

Is he totally transparent with you, and has he stopped sending flirty text messages to women?
Posted By: IntuitionGMH Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 05/13/17 03:04 AM
K, i am not sure what "pick your poison means".. help me with that please. He has started drinking again. Yes he has stopped sending flirty test messages to women. I am ready to leave him as I don't feel any love or support from him. I want to so badly as we have been married 17 years but it has always been about him and always will. I was always, what I thought, strong..hey..i can ignore this cause i know who i am..but i don't want to do that any more. I think of the song.. Neither one of us wants to be the first to say goodbye..but.. you know..I don't think he cares... I do...but I think I just keep waiting for a glimmer of hope..we did have some good years but basically he always blames any woman he has been with..(I am wife number 3)... I guess I feel like the loser here.. He has the love of his children and I have lost my parents.. and my family lives far away.. I feel like i have to start all over again..but.. hey..i guess i can do it.. age 65 and a new adventure.. Yah..if i had my career and a decent income i would not be hanging around.. that is an issue..finances.. But.. I guess I will have to trust that the universe has something better for me.. I feel so conflicted..depressed.. pathetic.. Not at all who i was when I married him for sure..
Posted By: IntuitionGMH Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 05/13/17 03:05 AM
does anyone suggest that i expose and stay, or should i expose and leave..? i can go to our other house until we work things out one way or the other... he will be so pissed that i exposed him..i don't think he will get over that and will use it against me in our divorce settlement.
Posted By: unwritten Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 05/13/17 03:08 AM
The only reason you should stay under any circumstances is if he goes NC with the OW, and implements all other EP's including moving, to protect your marriage and what is left of your mental health.

It does not sound like he has any interest in doing any of that, and doesn't seem to give a hoot about your mental health.

Expose and separate. You will feel so much better when you do.
Do you want to continue on knowing that your husband is not committed to you, but putting on the front of an in tact marriage?

That is what I mean by "pick your poison". It will be a slow agony of a thousand cuts (and besides, I'm sure that others in your circle already realize that your husband is cheating).
Originally Posted by IntuitionGMH
I am ready to leave him as I don't feel any love or support from him. I want to so badly as we have been married 17 years but it has always been about him and always will. I was always, what I thought, strong..hey..i can ignore this cause i know who i am..but i don't want to do that any more. I think of the song.. Neither one of us wants to be the first to say goodbye..but.. you know..I don't think he cares... I do...but I think I just keep waiting for a glimmer of hope..we did have some good years but basically he always blames any woman he has been with.
But we can see that he has been allowed to act like this. You have zero hope of ever seeing that glimmer that you wish for until you stop enabling his poor behavior. Can you see why we say this?
Posted By: unwritten Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 05/13/17 03:17 PM
Also, what is 'strong' about ignoring problems and sweeping them under the rug? What is strong about enabling a cheater?

Going to a party at OW's house does not make you strong. Get that out of your head.
Posted By: IntuitionGMH Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 05/13/17 05:38 PM
yes some of them know as they have put 2 and 2 together. the others keep asking me why i am no longer friends with the WS who they think is such a nice person..ie// what is wrong with me! i am protecting both of them by keeping their secret... but i keep thinking why should i air my dirty laundry. i am totally screwed up.. thx for your help.
Posted By: IntuitionGMH Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 05/13/17 05:41 PM
yes and he has a way of always turning things against me. i am the culprit skulking around checking his emails (which i no longer do). i am the jailer asking him to abide by the boundaries he agreed to but does not want to withhold as he wants to "apologize" to her... cause now that he has cancer he feels a need to apologize to the people he has hurt including her! WTF.. i no longer know what to think! i feel crazy.
Posted By: IntuitionGMH Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 05/13/17 05:48 PM
you r right. i did NOT go to the party as i did remain strong and maintained the boundary i set up at the beginning.. no contact with her. she has sent me a couple of emails asking to be friends and both times i have responded with the same message... NO Contact. she walks by our house but i never walk by hers. i feel that is an invasion and she is a predator. i am sick of thinking these things. i always have looked for the best in people. my husband feels he s/b able to say hi to her if she walks by and exchange niceties. i say NO.. he calls me the jailer and he wants out of prison. i guess i better give him the key. i have said i don't want to live almost next door to her.. so close i get her wifi signal.. he wants to stay here cause he doesn't want the stress of moving now that he has cancer. he is in remission but feels the stress would bring it back faster. i no longer have friends around me as they were all tied in with our friendship w the WS. i feel like all i do is complain.. i s/b figuring this out.. i am beyond help .. perhaps some counseling is in order .. we have talked divorce and i guess i didn't want to go that route but i am going to have to put my big girl panties on and just let it be done. i am talking out loud here.. thx for being a sounding board.
Posted By: TheRoad Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 05/13/17 05:57 PM
Originally Posted by IntuitionGMH
you r right. i did NOT go to the party as i did remain strong and maintained the boundary i set up at the beginning.. no contact with her. she has sent me a couple of emails asking to be friends and both times i have responded with the same message... NO Contact. she walks by our house but i never walk by hers. i feel that is an invasion and she is a predator. i am sick of thinking these things. i always have looked for the best in people. my husband feels he s/b able to say hi to her if she walks by and exchange niceties. i say NO.. he calls me the jailer and he wants out of prison. i guess i better give him the key. i have said i don't want to live almost next door to her.. so close i get her wifi signal.. he wants to stay here cause he doesn't want the stress of moving now that he has cancer. he is in remission but feels the stress would bring it back faster. i no longer have friends around me as they were all tied in with our friendship w the WS. i feel like all i do is complain.. i s/b figuring this out.. i am beyond help .. perhaps some counseling is in order .. we have talked divorce and i guess i didn't want to go that route but i am going to have to put my big girl panties on and just let it be done. i am talking out loud here.. thx for being a sounding board.

Big girl panties is not just for filing for divorce. They
also do a fabulous job doing a full exposure. And, it is never
to late for you to expose.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 05/13/17 06:17 PM
You keep repeating the same things. What is your plan? What are you going to do?
Posted By: unwritten Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 05/13/17 09:07 PM
The thing is, this forum is not set up to be a sounding board. We are not hear to blog or to read each other's blogs. We are here to help you either 1) have marital recovery or 2) have personal recovery. Either can be achieved if you follow Dr Harley's plan. NEITHER can be achieved if you follow your own illogical plan. You are living the results of ignoring our advice and following your own plan right now.

I am confused as to why you came back when you seem to want to continue to blog about your own illogical plan rather than seek help in following Dr Harley's plan finally. Your first post back was all about why you were wrong to not expose, yet you still seem reluctant to expose. You still refer to it as 'airing your dirty laundry,' when you know Dr Harley does not view it that way at all.

We would all love to see you recover from this one way or the other. But you need to be serious about taking action this time, and not enabling this affair.
Posted By: IntuitionGMH Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 05/14/17 09:58 AM
I know, i am such a waffler i can't stand it. the affair ended Nov 27 2015 and my husband says he has moved on. it is over. he is sorry. i have had angry outbursts. i did not deal with this for a year while he had chemo so it is fresh again as he is back in his life. so my plan is this, thanks to the guidance i received here.

I am going to stop the angry outbursts as they are a love bank killer.
I am going to expose the affair to friends and family.
I am going to maintain the requirement for a boundary around the OW.. absolutely no contact between her and my WH... ( i just saw her yesterday, she is in town).
Do you suggest I pay her a visit and tell her how I feel as she has reached out to me 3 times to be "friends again" which I will NOT. I feel I would like to tell her what this has done to me, her former "best friend". Or do you see no value in that?
I am going to believe what my WH is telling me and judge him only by his actions and not his words and "move on" appropriately from there. ie/ if he has contact with her and I feel unsafe, I leave. OTW I will stay. I want to stay for him due to his cancer bottom line but I also have to honor my needs.
So that is where I am at. Thank you for helping me to focus and get more real here.
Very much appreciated.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 05/14/17 02:20 PM
How can you maintain no contact if she lives right there? I don't think you are taking this seriously and if you won't take it seriously, neither will he.

Your list is just empty feel good measures that will achieve nothing because you still live right there close to the OW. You are still trying to take half measures, which is why you are still dealing with this years later. Half measures will avail you nothing. Don't waste your time.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 05/14/17 02:22 PM
Originally Posted by IntuitionGMH
Do you suggest I pay her a visit and tell her how I feel as she has reached out to me 3 times to be "friends again" which I will NOT. I feel I would like to tell her what this has done to me, her former "best friend". Or do you see no value in that?

She doesn't give one WHIT about your feelings so that would be a waste of time.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 05/14/17 03:39 PM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
How can you maintain no contact if she lives right there? I don't think you are taking this seriously and if you won't take it seriously, neither will he.

Your list is just empty feel good measures that will achieve nothing because you still live right there close to the OW. You are still trying to take half measures, which is why you are still dealing with this years later. Half measures will avail you nothing. Don't waste your time.
I agree. I think you need to do as MelodyLane told you to expose and go into Plan B because it is very obvious your WH has no intentions on protecting you or your marriage when he still wants to be able to "talk with" the OW.
Posted By: unwritten Re: am i really here? typing this? now? - 05/14/17 08:07 PM
Dr Harley already has a list and I am betting you were given that list the first go around. Why are you coming up with your own list when you know it will
not work?

If your WH will not agree to ALL of Dr Harley's EPs, including moving far away, you need to Plan B. You can keep blogging about your own ideas and it won't make a difference as this is the only plan that will work to help you recover.
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