Hello, I'm new here but have been lurking for a few months reading posts, trying things I've learned, falling short and trying again. I recently have let go completely but had a slip up today which I'm not happy about.

Long story short, my husband left me 5 months ago, a week later came home and said he had an affair, lead me to believe we were on the path to reconciling and that he was coming home (we even flew down to his family's house for Thanksgiving), and then 5 min. after saying that, said he wasn't coming home and that we would eventually be getting a divorce. I spoke to him today and he again said that he thinks this is the right decision b/c this is "the wrong situation" and "not healthy." I honestly don't understand why he says this b/c there is no violence in our marriage, we don't even curse at each other. There are heated discussions and the usual relational issues but nothing I feel can't be reconciled.

We've been to only one counseling session and he said he doesn't want to do anymore and is not willing to try. I'm stumped and at a loss. We need a miracle at this point. I'm asking for prayers and intercessory prayer. Please help me pray for the restoration and reconciliation of our marriage. Please pray that the Lord soften my husband's heart toward me and our marriage. Pray for God's divine intervention in this situation, that He moves in our marriage and turns this entire thing around. I pray there will be no divorce in our future. I pray that this separation between H and I cease. Please pray the Lord remove all spirits of divorce, adultery, deceit, selfishness and hopelessness far away from our marriage. I truly believe God is faithful to restore and heal our marriage. H is a good man and I pray the Lord will help him love me again as his wife and that He will guide our hearts back to each other. I pray God works in our marriage and moves in a miraculous way to resurrect our marriage. In Jesus name I pray and give Him all the glory, Amen.

Please come into agreement with me and pray for us as I am also praying for all broken marriages here. Thank you.

Have you exposed the affair?

Hello Winning, welcome to Marriage Builders. I believe that God led you to this forum for a reason. Yes, we will pray for you, but more than that, we have a plan that might help you save your marriage. Can you follow a plan? There are no guarantees, but if you can follow a plan, you might have a chance.

How long married? Any kids? Do you know the identity of his affair partner?

Yes, everyone knows about the affair. We've been married 4 years, together 8. No kids and yes, I know who the OW is. He says he isn's seeing her anymore. But even more important, he hasn't reached out to me and we are just not communicating. I want my marriage to survive all of of this.

What exactly does everyone know about the affair? Who told them what?

What do you know about the OW? Married? Does he work with her?

Both he and I told our families about it. How it started months ago and he said they ended it. They know who it is. He still claims he's not seeing her and gets mad when I say something about it (although I try not to).

It was his younger assistant and they worked together. I know she doesn't live too far from me. He's since gotten a new job and they no longer work together but I know they still talk even though he keeps telling me and everyone else they don't. She is not married at all and she knows me. She's been to our home. At this point, there is nothing I can do to get my husband to wake up and work on this. I feel like we can work on this but he just doesn't want to. He told me he told me about the affair bc he thought I would leave him. He doesn't want to try and repair anything. We were moving toward trying to rebuild and then he just changed his mind. Its like someone stabbed me in the heart. He contacts me sometimes to see how I'm doing and talk about money stuff. That's it. I'm so sick of this. I still want to save our marriage but just feeling so discouraged.

Did you have a question for us?

What do you mean?

What can we do for you?

I don't know. I'm asking for prayers. I'm asking how I can bring my husband home. I'm working on myself. I want him to come to counseling and see that we can work through our issues. He refuses. I need help and hope. Will you please help me pray for us and our marriage.

The biggest obstacle in your marriage is the affair. As long as the affair is active, your husband will be high on his addiction. Therefore, counseling will be of no worth whatsoever. It would be like asking a falling down drunk to go to counseling and "work on his issues." In order for change to take place, the drunk has to stop drinking first. In order for your marriage to recover, the affair has to be killed first.

Killing the affair is the only thing that will motivate your husband to want to work on his marriage if it is not too late. It sounds like this affair has gone on for a long time, though.

Does he live with her? Are you sure she is not married? Who does she live with?

Has he ever had an affair before? Have you? Were you married before? Did you live together before marriage?

In 2007, my H and I were transferred to Houston, Texas. In 2008, he discovered he had throat cancer. We had just purchased a home 20 minutes from the front door of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center, one of the premier cancer treatment centers in the world. They had an entire floor of specialists that specialized in ear, nose and throat cancer. The typical treatment in the US for this type of cancer was to just remove the vocal cords. At MD Anderson, the highly trained cancer �geeks� used the latest technology and simply lasered off his cancerous tumor, saving his vocal cords. He has been fully recovered and cancer free for 8 years now. These doctors were gifted by the hand of God and we were blessed with the transfer the year before.

How do you think he would have fared if we simply sat in the lobby of MD Anderson and prayed but refused to get treatment? Do you think it would have helped us despite our stubborn REFUSAL to partake of God�s obvious gift?

The point is that God did not send you here to get prayers. He sent you here to get HELP for your marriage just as he sent thousands before you.

Who have you exposed to on her side?

So you think its too late huh?

No, he does not live with her and I am positive she is not married. I believe she rents a room somewhere. No, he's never had an affair before and says his unhappiness caused him to do alot of things he never thought he'd do and make mistakes that he isn't proud of. I have never had an affair. I was not married before either. And yes, we did live together before we got married.

There's really nothing else I can do to expose the affair bc he claims he isn't seeing her, they don't work together anymore and everyone already knows about it. And quite honestly, I wonder if exposing the affair will only have more of a negative affect on the situation. Please pray for us. Please help me pray for my husband. This is all very discouraging.

BrainHurts, I don't know anyone on her side to expose it to.

Did you read the thread on exposure? You can't miss it, it's in red in Melody's sig.

An affair is about fantasy, exposure destroys fantasy. Your husband will not like this, because now he can have his fantasy and you. After exposure, he cannot have both. It also will be the start of your recovery. When you expose, you ask the help of your close friends and relatives to kill the affair. Your support group will be bigger if people know you need help. Find out her name and expose to her family. Her (grand)parents won't be proud and will be able to influence her.

His unhappiness didn't cause him to have an affair. He had an affair because of poor boundaries, lack of honesty and lack of care for you.

To be able to recover your marriage, you have to understand an affair. It is an addiction. Your husband is an addict. There will be triggers to reconnect with OW. If you expose properly, it will be harder to cave in to the addiction again.

Unwillingly, I have been the affairpartner of a married man (didn't tell me he was married). I found out and cut off all contact, but there was this craving to contact him again. If this feeling was so strong with me, how strong will this be with a woman who willingly started a relationship with this man she knew was married?

Don't underestimate the importance of exposure. Read the thread and if you have questions on how to expose, please ask. I have read many threads of betrayed spouses who regretted not exposing sooner of incomplete. I have yet to read the first thread of a betrayed spouse who regretted exposure.

Your intuition tells you not to expose, but after you did it, you will very soon feel the benefits of having exposed this terrible affair.

You have a small chance to save this if you will take action. But if you do nothing, it is hopeless.

Ive taken so many actions. They've all pushed him away. What do you guys suggest?

You have been here for a while, so you must have studied this:
http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2695379#Post2695379

Did you read the exposure thread? That is an essential step. Read the thread, if you have questions after that, post again.

Without a plan, you get nowhere. The first step of the plan is proper exposure. On this forum people will help you with every step.

Can you specify? I read about counseling. In most cases, counseling doesn't help a bit. In fact, in most cases, counseling causes more damage to a marriage (unless the counselors last name is Harley).

The biggest step you could take would be exposure using the tactics on my exposure thread. That is the most effective weapon you have. Just saying that "people know" is not what we mean by exposure. An effective exposure is widespread and comprehensive; reaching out to family and friends and asking them to use their influence to kill the affair.

That is your best hope.

Thank you for your quick response. I've actually spoken with Dr. Harley and he says all I can really do is to wait out the affair since It's already exposed. Both of our families know.

Both of your families may no, but you've exposed to NO ONE on the OW's side. You need to do some research and find some info.

I dont know anyone on her side. I don't know who she socializes with, who are friends are, they no longer work together....Kinda stumped. And concerned that Plan B'ing will do more damage than good at this point...he gets upset when I ask if he is still seeing her and says he isn't and that he is alone and all he wants to do is focus on work.

You should find out who her family and friends are and expose to them. You should also do a proper exposure to his family. I seriously doubt that you did that.

You should also go into Plan B ASAP. You are ruining any chance of reconciliation by hanging around making yourself available as Option #2. It makes you much less attractive and will destroy your mental health.

Your husband is actively conducting His affair and you need to stop ASKING him about it and just get the evidence. Of course he will tell you no. Can you hire a PI? A PI will get you all the evidence you need in a couple of days.

My dear, you are being way too timid and inactive. You can't save a marriage sitting around doing nothing.

His family is well aware of the details. All of them. And when I bring it up, they simply tell me to move one and get over him at this point. But I still want our marriage. I have been in No Contact with him for a few weeks now. I have evidence also but no, I cant afford to hire a PI, i can barely afford to pay my rent at this point bc of all of this.

How wil all of this help if he has already left and stated he wants a D? And why Plan B vs Plan A?

Does he pay his part of the rent? I'm not from your side of the ocean and therefore not in a position to give legal advice, but I think you should get yourself protected legally asap.

You know at what company the OW works, you know her position. You know several of her friends. Investigate. Does the company have a website? Search for a list of employees. Use Facebook to find her identity (search for pictures of work-related events, like teambuilding or X-mas party, she will probably be tagged in one of the pictures). It cannot be that difficult to find out her name.

Did you inform her employer about the unethical behaviour of their employees?

edit: i read you know her identity, so finding who to expose to on her side should be easy. Facebook and google will help you find her friends and relatives.

You (women) should not be longer than 3 weeks in plan A, because it will be too hard on you. Plan B will protect you from the abuse. If you stay in plan A too long, it will be more difficult to recover.

Plan B will alow you to recover personally. Wether or not your marriage will recover is not certain, but plan B tends to upset the average WH, because he isn't in control anymore.

He says he will/still helping me out financially and is taking care of the bills but needs some time to get more money together for our larger responsibilities. Obviously, him paying for his room for rent is making it more difficult on our finances. He's just made all of these erratic moves and statements in such a short period of time and everyone is just being completely thrown for a loop every single time. And no one is talking to me, at all. I'm so hurt, lonely, missing him but angry.

They no longer work together so I'm trying to figure out how this will all make sense?

What exactly did you tell his family? Did you ask for their help? If you have evidence then you don't need to hire a PI.

Your husband is unlikely to want a divorce if his affair is over and that is what exposure can often achieve. Your marriage can survive his temporary anger over exposure, it can't survive an ongoing affair,

Yes, when he initially left, I told them everything he told me, timeframes, when/where, etc. and they were completely supportive, encouraging and helpful. In fact, he's been unhappy for over a year and they have been counseling him to stay in the marriage since then but we never got proper help. He came to his breaking point and gave up without talking to me about it and how I feel. Obviously the OW made him feel better than I did and feel like he was missing something being married. His family still thinks he is making a bad decision but they told me they've done all they can do and he has to make his own decisions and lie in his own bed.

A little background, we're both 31, have been together for over 8 years and married 4 with no kids. I love him dearly and I know he still loves me. But he's never used the D word before and the way he's been acting toward me is so unlike him. All of our friends and family are just shocked, hurt and mortified by the entire thing. He thinks we're growing apart and the relationship can't work. I agree it can't work the way it was but what I keep praying is that we have another chance to rebuild something new that does in fact, work.

What would further exposure to her friends do? Make me look desperate and pitiful? She's an idiot and I would only be showing that I am trying to take my husband back from her as she sits there and laughs bc apparently my husband has shared our life with her. I know my H is the one who made the decision to do what he did but I don't want to feed into her smugness.

What exposure would do is prevent her from bringing your cheating husband around her family. It would make her look like a desperate fool to be carrying on with a married man. Most parents wouldn't allow a married man to darken their doorstep. And while she may have a family who doesn't care, it would take all the fun out of their affair. Why would you want to allow her to parade around with your husband without telling everyone that she is just a pig wearing lipstick? I seriously doubt her family knows she is shagging a married man.


The goal here is not to gain the approval of crapwits, but to cause trouble in their affair by exposing to everyone. If someone thinks you are "desperate and pitiful" for exposing 2 pigs in the pigpen, why would you care about the opinion of such a person? Who cares? Exposure will make it very hard for that skank to parade around like she won some prize. You will be warning other women to watch their marriages around her.

So everything you know is from his mouth. You don't know the real truth. You only know the story he told you.
If there is an affair, there's nothing you can do to save you marriage. I bet the affair started before he felt miserable. People having an affair tend to feel bad about their deceit every now and then. Later, they rewrite history and blame the bad marriage for their bad choices.
An adulterer is very much unlike the person he was. An affair is an addiction and people having an affair are not in their right mind. This is not the husband you know and love, but it's like an alien has taken over his body and you need to protect yourself from this man.
And describing an affair as growing apart is vey wayward. Don't believe a word from his mouth. This isn't the man you love, but a known liar who twists the truth.
And you know he still loves you.. You probably are a very lovable woman, or he wouldn't have married you in the first place. But it didn't stop him from having an affair, nor will it make him come to his senses and restore your marriage.

My married boyfriend was in love with me, but also loved his wife. None of his actions reflected loving care. If he cared for either one of us, he wouldn't have betrayed us both. His love for me was the worst thing that ever happened to me.
Don't think too much of his feelings for you, focus on his actions. If you are a nice person, it is easy to love you. But sadly, loving you doesn't mean he will end the affair.

Because of the crazy nature of an affair, following the MB plan is essential for recovery.

I am in fact dealing with an alien, you're right. But I still love him as my husband. I'm confused on why you say, "If there is an affair, there's nothing you can do to save you marriage," when most of the people on here are dealing with infidelity.

What MB plan are you referring to and for recovery of myself and/or the marriage?

The affair must end for the marriage to have any chance. Exposure is the first step in MB and your best chance of killing the affair so your marriage has a chance.

Is that clearer?

What artcles have you read?

If you work MB, you will recover, either within the marriage or without.

You can be the best spouse EVER and still be unable to create a happy marriage if your spouse is in an affair. Your efforts are severely downgraded or discounted in favor of the affair partner.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8001_affair.html

Ive mentioned that the affair is already exposed and out there. Everyone important knows. They no longer work together. Maybe I'm not seeing the next steps here b/c who else is there to expose to? Im currently in the midst of a somewhat of 180 and prepping for Plan A. I want my husband back. I want our marriage, obviously.

I'm also asking for prayers to be honest. The situation looks impossible but I know God is working in this somehow.

This affair hasn't been exposed to her family and friends. I would wager there are many more who don't know. Not sure what you mean by prepping for Plan A. It is the complete opposite of the 180. Even so, it is time for Plan B. But if you expect to have any hope at all you need to do a much more comprehensive exposure. That is the best advice we can give you.

That is why he sent you here. Unfortunately, you are not taking the advice.

This has gone on for months. The time for Plan A has passed. You need to Plan B. If you would like help with your letter, post it here. You should also see an attorney because you need good legal advice.

Did you ever investigate wether he told you the truth? Because what you call exposure, was telling his story to friends and relatives. Did you verify his story? If not, it is probably full of lies and omissions. Waywards have no idea what truth is.

As ML writes, her side hasn't been exposed to. Her parents don't know about the disappointing behaviour of their daughter. Parents can be very powerful allies on your side. Exposure on her side will speed up things. You will recover sooner if you expose on her side.

Have you established NC? Do you believe there is no contact because your liar husband told you? It is likely they are in contact, because of the addictive nature of an affair. It only takes a second of weakness to contact an affair partner. As long as they are in contact, your marriage doesn't stand a chance.

There's a big difference between 180 and MB. The MB program is designed to minimize your suffering. If you follow it to the letter, it is dummy-proof. Plan A is different for man and for women, because women cannot take the abuse for as long as men can take it.

180 doesn't minimize your suffering. It alows you to be in an abusive situation for a lenghth of time, and causes you a lot of suffering. If the affair eventully dies a natural death, you not only have to overcome the affair, but also the damage done during 180. Your chances of recovery will be significant smaller if you do 180.

If your marriage has a fighting chance, you will find out sooner when following MB, opposed to just waiting during 180. When you mix 180 with MB, I'm afraid you will do plan Doormat. That never saved any marriage.

You are in an emotional rollercoaster. These times, thinking logical is difficult because of the intense emotions and immense hurt. The beauty of MB is that you don't have to think about your own plan, but you get the best plan available. It is not designed to save a bad marriage at all cost. It is designed to save you from the immense suffering caused by the affair. It also gives you the best chance to improve your marriage, as soon as the affair is over and your spouse is willing to recover the marriage.

MB is not just a nice theory (like 180), MB was built on scientific research and translated to a dummy proof step by step plan, simple enough for everyone to follow.

MB really is the answer to your prayers.

I have established NC but he reaches out from time to time about financials and asks how I'm doing. I've searched around and haven't seen any success tories to come out of exposing the A to her family, especially since everyone already knows. If anything, I've seen this propel the wayward to move even quicker toward D. I've called off all advances and am doing my own thing but seeing little reward in randomly contact OWs family and being the crazy woman telling them about what their family member has done. She will deny it. She's not even from this country, her family lives overseas. I've done the doormat thing, now I've just given it to the Man upstairs. I don't want to rush him into something if there is any chance at all that he is reconsidering. Dr. H said I should just wait for the A to die a natural death since it's already exposed. His A was an excuse to not work on the issues in our marriage. I want to show him that we can work on these issues but he is just checked out.

All of our success stories on this forum attribute it to exposure. If you have read Dr. Harley's works, you would know that he calls exposure the "most important first step towards recovery."


That is because you don't know what you are doing. You are lecturing people who have saved their marriages using these tactics. Just think on that. What would you say if a fat person lectured skinny people on weight loss methods? Wouldn't that be ridiculous? Your track record so far is a big fat ZERO. The methods we are giving you are from Dr. Bill Harley, who has saved thousands of marriages using these tactics. Do you think you know more than him?

We know what Dr Harley's advice would be because he saved our marriages using these tactics. He would tell you to a) do a complete exposure and b) to go into Plan B.


Once again, you have no earthly idea what you are doing. Why don't you test your Plan Winning11 right now? Call him up right now and say "I want to show you we can work on these issues. I know you are checked out."


No you have not. He sent you here to get help and you are stubbornly refusing it.

Keeping the secret from her family and friends only serves to enable the affair. Why in the world would you want to do that?

Which day were you on the show?

Melody, I really appreciate everything you're saying. I don't mean to come off as lecturing. I'm just very hurt and at a loss. Like I said, I spoke with Dr. Harley and he said to allow the A to die a natural death - that's all I can do at this point. I have no plan at all right now but to physically move from my apt. The other thing is that the affair is not the main issue here, its the issues my H has been having with me that propelled him. I'm not condoning his actions and the terrible decisions he chose to make, I'm just saying that his A is a symptom if the larger issues at hand. Doesn't Plan B push the WS further away and help me move one? And I don't want to give up on us.

How would you recommend I go about approaching her family/friends?

I was not on the show, I had a private session.

]
I have been on this forum every day for 15 years and this is false. What propels the WS to divorce is the AFFAIR. As such, protecting and enabling the affair is more likely to lead to divorce. Exposure, while not a guarantee, is the most likely thing to ruin the affair the fastest. Your H keeps his affair a big secret for a good reason: it THRIVES on secrecy and cannot survive the light of day. Why do you think he tells you it is over?

WE cannot help you if you refuse to listen to the advice. I view this as hopeless if you continue to ignore the advice we give here. Dr. Harley is not aware that you did not completely expose the affair. You told it was exposed but when we questioned you, that was not entirely accurate. There are huge gaps in your exposure, making it very ineffective.


This tells me you do not understand the dynamics of an affair and have no clue what you are dealing with. Your marriage broke up over the affair. There is no bigger problem than that because you do not have a marriage unless and until you bust up this affair. When the Titanic was sinking was there a "bigger issue" than the boat sinking? That is what you are trying to tell me. Your H has told you about these "issues" to throw you off balance so you won't focus on the real CAUSE: his affair.

And more importantly, none of those other "issues" can ever be resolved unless the affair is killed. This is why it is so critical that you do everything in your power to bust it up.

IT is irrational to say that "Plan B" will push him farther away when he is already long gone. The AFFAIR has pushed him away. And by hanging around making yourself available, you only harm your mental health and make yourself look less attractive to him. Dr Harley recommends Plan B after 3 weeks because:

1. Plan A does not work for women - it makes them less attractive
2. it causes mental health issues such as nervous breakdowns
3. it causes serious health issues
4. even if the marriage does reconcile, the woman suffers post traumatic stress disorder'

But I am certain that Dr Harley told you this, didn't he?

With Steve Harley or Dr. Harley?

The best way to approach them is via her facebook page by sending a private message to them. Does she have a facebook page?

Not ignoring, I'm trying to drill down and assess this possible plan. And yes, Dr. Harley explained why the timeframe of Plan A stands in regards to health. Although exposed to our family/friends, he still can continue to say what he wants about it and skew the picture to work in his favor. Yes, we are actually "friends" on FB from along time ago.

BUT, if you have shared the facts he won't be successful in that regard. Sure, you will always have the occasional enabler fool, that is to be expected. But exposing the facts to his family and friends typically prevents them from believing his fogged out "story." Its a lot like a falling down drunk blaming his poor state on his spouse. Most rational people don't accept that justification.


Is there a reason why you would protect her at your expense? Especially since you claim to be a Christian. I feel like there is something you are not telling me. Most women are not this meek around a mistress. You are "friends" with the woman who wrecked your marriage?

Have you ever had an affair? Did your marriage start as an affair? Were you and your H swingers? I just feel like there is a backstory you are not telling.

His family has spoken to him nonstop about it and he continues to dodge everyone. They have stated how disappointed they are and that he needs to go back home. He will not listen. I think thats why he attempted to come home a few weeks ago, b/c he felt extreme guilt and shame. But something prevented him from sticking to his word. He knows he is wrong and seems to not care. He knows all of this.

I am by no means protecting her. We are "friends" on FB bc I knew her before all of this went down as H's coworker and nothing more. I used to have conversations with her when I went to visit my H at work however, she is obviously not a friend of mine. I've never had an affair, our marriage did not begin as an affair and we are not swingers. I am reacting this way b/c I don't want to push him further to D. I have nothing to hide or lie about. No one is perfect, we all make mistakes so please do not attack my faith.

The "something" is a powerful addiction. It is much like an alcohol or narcotics addiction. This is why he is impossible to reason with. He is not using any reason because he is high on the fog of his addiction.


I am not attacking your faith. I am trying very hard to understand your motivations because we don't typically see such a high degree of enabling from a woman. His affair is what will push you to divorce. THAT, and your keeping his affair a secret. Your best chance comes at doing everything you can to bust up this affair, because sitting back being quiet will not work.

By exposing the affair to her side of the fence, you will cause conflict in the affair. They are hopeful that they can pretend that your marriage is long over and they are starting a new relationship. In actuality, he left his marriage to pursue his affair. There will be enablers, sure, but there will be people who will come out against the OW and your H. That will prevent him from EVER integrating himself into many circles of her family.

Your marriage can survive his temporary anger over exposure, it CAN'T survive an ongoing affair.

If I were you, I would do a nuclear exposure and then go completely DARK in an air-tight Plan B in a couple of weeks. OR, another method Dr Harley has recommended is going into a dark Plan B and THEN exposing.

Plan B has a very strange effect on waywards. In almost every instance, when the BS goes completely dark, the WS goes CRAZY to get through to her. [and I mean waywards who had moved out and not been in touch for some time] I think the reason is because as long as the wayward has full access to the BS, he feels in control and likes having her around as an option. When he loses that control, he gets very upset. A recent example of this is the poster bellachaos. I have been helping her intermediaries and almost every day her WS comes up with a NEW PLOY about how can get access to his wife. IT is downright hilarious. He finally resorted to just walking into her house a couple of weeks ago.

Would his mother call up this skank and tell her she will never darken her doorstep? I would do that if I were your MIL..

The poster, noone773, had a similar situation in Plan B. Her H kept just barging in on her when she was in Plan B. He tried a few times to get back with her by getting her to relax her conditions and she stood her ground and said no. He called her up before Christmas and agreed to all her conditions. They reconciled and spent Christmas together.

My MIL would never call this OW and say that. I didn't realize I'm enabling by not being in contact with him. The alien that has taken over his mind is completely different from my best friend and the man I married. What do you make of affairs that are blatantly out in the open? Whats worse or rather whats the difference in how you treat either one?

His family has told me to move on b/c he is unhappy (and this is after everyone pleading with him to stay). He continues to tell them he loves me but in the same breath refuses to forgive me. He told me about that affair after the fact b/c he thought I would leave him. This is a classic exit/split self affair. The wayward has little regard for anyone but himself at this point.

He says all he wants to do is work and he is alone. He said that I wasn't there for him when he needed me and says he's emotionally all over the place and numb but he still loves and cares for me. Trying to make sense of how someone can be addicted to this OW to the point of going against his own family who know he's making a big mistake and messing up everyone's lives. How do I link to the user's you mentioned above stories?

If Dr. Harley told you to let the affair die, then do. Expose her side Go into Plan B. See a lawyer, protect yourself, send a Plan B letter, change locks, banks, etc., If needed

Typical wayward behavior. It doesn't make sense. You need to stop taking responsibility for the affair.

Stay NC. (earlier people were telling you HE needs to have NC with the OW before you can make any head way.)

We KNOW he is in contact with her because of the behavior you are describing.

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2315999

You don't understand an affair yet. I have been in one, not knowing he was married. Before this, I could not imagine myself having an affair.

NOW I CAN

I hate to admit it, but after the initial shock, disgust and nausea, the affair caught me. Some four months after I found out, to my disgust, I wanted it back again. I never gave in, but the grip of the addiction was so very strong. I was in my own fog. I didn't actively pursue him, but had he showed up on my doorstep, I don't know what I would have done.

One year after, I wanted to start dating. Then social media told me he had visited my linkedin profile several times. I was back at square one, the affair was pulling at me again.

I knew all I had to do to rekindle things, was to send him one message.

I am a christian and try to live my life accordingly. I have never wanted to be in an affair, but I have been without knowing. And it had its claws in me very deep. I understand how strong the addiction is. I have not contacted him, but if I had the same moral standards as your husbands OW has, I would have.

This is why I emphasise the need to expose on her side. Without it, the chance you have of killing the affair is not so good.

Once again: Was this with Dr Bill Harley, or with his son Steven Harley?

If you called the telephone coaching centre and paid about $200 for a phone consultation, then you were speaking to Dr Harley's son Steve. In that case, you did not receive advice directly from Dr Bill Harley.

I highly doubt that Dr Harley would have told you to let the affair die, but not to expose.

I am sorry to hear that. Many parents would do this when their son was having an affair.


When I refer to enabling, I mainly mean keeping the affair a secret from the OW's family and friends. You have protected her by your silence.

I fully understand and accept that your husband is an alien. We can ALL relate to that. There is no difference between an affair that is out in the open and one is not. However, your husband is HIDING his affair so it is not out in the open.


His family does not understand infidelity or they would know that it is a CLASSIC trait of cheaters to rewrite history to justify their affair. They have ALL been "unhappy for years" even though their spouse is usually never aware of this. ALL waywards have little regard for anyone other than themselves.


That is what falling down drunks say when they are confronted. Trh truth is that they want to be left alone to drink. Your husband wants to be left alone to carry on his affair.


Yes, yes, we know. It is all your fault!


Remember what I said about an adulterer being like an alcoholic or a crack head? Once you understand the powerful draw of crack cocaine, you will understand what your H is going through.

She told him [not sure if it was Steve or Dr Harley] that it had been exposed. She didn't elaborate apparently, so he didn't see the massive holes in her exposure.

Oh...what a pity!

That's like telling your GP you have taken all the recommended medication, when you have not! How is he supposed to give appropriate advice if he has been misled?

yep! That's why I am trying to persuade her to close that loophole.

I meant to ask if you verified WH and OW have no contact. The way he acts tells me they are in contact and that is what stands between your marriage and recovery.

Everyone knows the story he made up. You don't know the real story yourself. The affair started way earlier than he told you. You didn't expose, his story got "exposed".
Exposure speeds things up. The longer an affair lasts, the smaller the chance of your marriage recovering. If you don't do a proper exposure, chances of divorce are even bigger.

If I was fooling around with a married man, my mother (in her seventies) would grab me by the hair to keep me away from a married man. Is she from a country with strict moral values? That would be wonderful.

Did you tell Dr. Harley how you exposed and to who? Often people think they exposed, but if we pry a bit, we discover the definition of exposure is not the same for everyone. Did you specify your exposure to Dr Harley, or did you just tell him you exposed to everyone?

If there is something you can do to speed up the end of the affair, why wouldn't you use that tool?

You cannot resolve of the issues in your marriage, as long as the affair is active. It is pointless, because the affair has taken over your husbands brain.

The Man upstairs sent you here, i am sure of that.

I am reminded of a joke.
There was a flood. A God fearing man was sitting on his rooftop and prayed to God to rescue him. A fisherman floated by and offered him to get in the boat. The man said "No. God will rescue me."
Several days later, a rubberboat came by. Again he refused, "God will rescue me." Then a helicopter came by, the man refused again.
He died and arrived at the gates of heaven. He asked God "Why didn't you rescue me?" God answered: "I sent a fisherman, rubber boat and a helicopter. Why did you refuse?"

Get legal advice, get an IM and plan B. We will pray for you.

She said earlier she knows they are in contact. What she meant above was that SHE is not in contact with him.


So agree with this!!

Then you haven't happened upon my thread yet.

My H had a twelve YEAR affair right under my nose. He promised to end it on D-Day, he loved me, he'd do anything to fix things.

That lasted one week, until he caved the second time that she contacted him. I didn't find this out until six months later...during the time when we were wasting money going to "marriage counseling"....while my H sat and bold-face lied to me, the counselor, himself, and even his mother! Yep...I heard him on the phone with his mother back then, bragging to her about the huge compliment that our "marriage counselor" had given to us...that the counselor had never seen anyone work so hard to save their marriage, and that we WILL succeed. This was said WHILE HE WAS STILL HAVING HIS AFFAIR! Talk about addiction!

Second D-day, I went nuclear on exposure...thanks to this forum, I realized that my marriage as I had known it was gone. I was no longer afraid of "pushing him into her arms". He was already there! Whether I stayed with my husband or chose to leave, I was not willing to have my adult children be forced to live with this woman in their future without the best fight that I could fight.

I told everyone. (edited to add: yes, I contacted each of her children and all of her friends on FB...her family had KNOWN! But not the true story...they knew the story that the affairees had concocted, and it was a whopper!)

I even made up a flyer with mine and H's photo on it and mailed it to every single neighbor on the OW's street (36 unknown-to-me people), with a little blurb about the affair, I included my cell number and asked them to call me if they ever see H on their street again. I warned them to watch their own husbands around this woman who obviously is a danger to marriages.

That took care of that. Killed the affair dead...my extreme exposure apparently made it no longer fun for her to steal what is mine once I shined the light of day on them.

After two years of recovery, our marriage is better than it ever EVER was.

We did for a long while see our Pastor for help...but it wasn't marriage counseling...it was because we were both ready to turn our lives around WITH God in our marriage. We are both IN the marriage now. When we pray together each day, my husband asks God to stay the third strand in our marriage.

Again, I did in fact speak with Dr. Bill Harley, and not Steve. Not understanding why you don't get that. I told him that the A is exposed b/c I thought it was. As I mentioned when I first started, everyone knows. He didn't ask me if her family knows. He asked me if it was exposed, and to my knowledge it was.

My mother would call the OW but its not in my MIL's personality to do that.

Now you have new knowledge. What's your new plan? (we are all praying btw. But action on your part is necessary.)

That joke makes sense, and makes me think.

Another note, my H is a conflict avoider and this will just send him off with a poor taste in his mouth about me. I want to save any chance we have of R in the future.

Bindsighted2013, I just glanced at your thread. Were you guys at any point separated? Did your H ever mention D and seem steadfast in his resolve?

Dr. Harley does not typically give private sessions. That is the area that Steve covers. Many people come through here claiming to have talked to Dr. Harley when, in fact, they have had a private session with Steve Harley.

Typically, if you want to talk to Dr. Harley, you must email or call the radio show. It is not hard to get that people might be confused as to how you might have talked to Dr. Harley privately.

Then you will fully expose the affair now.

Hi, Winning. I have been reading with great interest about your struggles and your WH. I know you are in good hands with the wonderful folks on here who are helping you, but this sentence set me on my heels, and now I have to jump in!

My H, too is a HUGE "conflict avoider." In fact, when he left, I had NO clue there was OW, only found out the day he left, left me a note AND divorce papers in the mailbox! He wasn't about to go into a huge "knock-down, drag-out" over it. He was D-O-N-E, he wanted HER, and that was that!

As far as "exposure," sure - he did it! He told ALL his friends/family, etc. He was sure proud of himself! Got away from that "crazy [censored]..." They (mostly) thought he had lost his mind, only his closest family thought it was ok....typical family, right? Told me to "move on..."

I found this site, and honey, I read from sunup till I couldn't keep my eyes open anymore! If there was a degree I could take away from here, I earned a PhD in affairs! I urge you to read other people's stories. Especially read in some "Recovering" stories. If you start at the beginning of their "odysseys," you'll see that they all felt like you do. They all had to do Plan A, felt like doormats, were treated horribly, were scared to death to go to Plan B. Everyone (well, almost everyone) who goes to Plan B is sure this is the end of the marriage! It's a scary thing! Especially when the WS says they will proceed with divorce if you do it. In my case, my WH DID divorce me! We were divorced for 2 years, separated for 3. But God brought us back together again. Yes, it was painful, yes it was hard. But we now have a great marriage, AND a powerful testimony to others about what God can do.

One positive thing you can do now is understand ALL the concepts that are being given to you, and I have to add, it doesn't sound like you're grasping the concepts from this site. An affair NEEDS exposure. Exposure is like when you turn on the lights and all the roaches run! Exposure takes away the thrill. It takes away the excitement, the drama, the cute "little secret" the affair partners share. Then the cold, hard light of day can begin to seep into their little dream world.

OF COURSE your WS is going to be upset at you! Like a child who's favorite toy has just been ripped from his hands, he's going to blame you for spoiling all his fun. And you always have! That kind of talk goes with the territory, and the sooner you learn to ignore it, the sooner you will be on the mend.

See, affair partners can't really find it in themselves to be all-in to each other. They just want a part-time affair. As long as they can see each other when they want, and have their "normal lives" the rest of the time, it works just fine and is a little extra titillating, too! By doing total exposure - with the whole truth of the whole sordid affair - you are ruining their fun, and their fantasy that they are pulling the wool over every one's eyes! Do you see? Does that make sense?

Now, as far as his fog-speak..."you're pushing him into her arms, blah, blah..." he just wants you to back off so he can continue his fantasy. Don't worry, this isn't original with him. THEY ALL SAY IT! lol It means nothing. By going to Plan B, it forces the WS to depend on OW for all his needs. And chances are, she can't supply all his needs the way you can. Does she have his mother's recipes for his favorite soup you can make? Does she know just how to fix his favorite pie, etc? Or fold his socks the way he likes? Does she even want to? See?

There will come times and occasions when he'll remember the things you did for him, that she can't/won't, and that is the time he'll yearn for what he gave away. That can't happen without Plan B. Make sense?

Please, honey, get a grip on your emotions and pray for the strength to go through with this in order to find God's will for your marriage. **I** was ready to walk away! WH was gone. Divorce was in the works. I was walking...."If he wanted her, he could HAVE her..." I was "moving on." But God had a different plan. And He brought me here, and mended what we had managed to mangle pretty good! And he put it back even better than it had ever been!

God Bless you darling! You deserve a happy marriage. And MB can give you the tools for it.

Edit to add: Sorry this is so long! I just couldn't stop once I started addressing all your fears.

Ok, so this is where the gap lies and that is what we are trying to help you with. We want you to have the best chance at reconciliation. What do you mean when you say "to my knowledge it was?" Do you mean to say that you felt like you had completed the job so you said yes? I just want to make sure I understand because you said some other things that concern me. You said his family believes his denials. Did YOU tell them the truth about the affair or did he spin the story to them? How did that play out?


Do you think your MIL would if you asked?

Your situation is EXACTLY like hers so stop trying to find insignificant differences. The point is that exposure helps EVERY situation. EVen though the adulterers wear different color clothes, work at different places and drive different cars, the method of recovery is the same.

You are the conflict avoider from what I have seen here; one of the worst I have ever seen. Your H already has a bad taste in his mouth about you because you are in competition with the OW.

So, if you are serious about saving your marriage, you need to grow some balls and kill the affair.

What you don't understand is that while you might know your husband, you don't know waywards. WE DO. Your husband is not there.

Prisca, call it a stroke of luck, and this is the last time I'm going to say this, I had a direct conversation with Dr. Harley. I emailed my story to the radio show w/ Joyce and Dr. Harley but preferred to share off-air. For some reason, he was unable to address my story on-air that day but I was able to speak with him anyway. I got very lucky, so choose to believe what you want.

It is important to have the facts right, it is not a personal attact if someone asks for more details. Thank you for clarifying.

I was merely trying to help you understand why some might be confused as to who you spoke to. It's important information for them to have, and a very common misunderstanding.

You have provided information in this post (for the first time) which cleared up the confusion. It could have been cleared up a lot quicker if you had provided it sooner instead of getting defensive.

I see a lot of defensiveness and rudeness in your thread, which isn't going to help you much. Snapping at those who are trying to help really isn't that wise of a thing to do.

Best wishes to you.

Winning, yes my H mentioned D whenever I would not comply with his gas lighting efforts. You see, while in the addiction, they NEED to shut us up, and the threat of divorce shuts us up, doesn't it?

Once I learned (through Marriage Builders material and this forum) to STOP AVOIDING CONFLICT, he never again mentioned D. He didn't want divorce all along, he just wanted to shut me up so that he could keep playing in the mud.

This conversation is for after you have exposed and killed the affair, because until the affair is DEAD, you could be Marilyn Monroe and meet him naked at the door each day, and it will.not.affect.him.

Right now what you CAN do is fight the biggest fight you're capable of. Yes pray first, but pray for the strength to do what you need to do to FIGHT for your marriage. Pray for God to give you the strength to do a genuine exposure. ASK for everyone's help in ending the affair. ASK your MIL (and your mother also) to call your husband and set him straight.

As much as I have had trouble with my own MIL being one of those "don't stir the pot" type of people, even SHE called my husband and told him that his skank would never darken a doorstep in HER house. And then she asked him what was he thinking, hehehe, I had showed MIL a horrible photo of the OW, and my MIL told my husband that the OW was ugly and an insult to her as his mother.

You simply will not know who will be the biggest support for your marriage until you expose and ask for help.

OlderWiser, the beginning of your story sounds very similar to mine. I don't know you ages but that may be playing a factor here as H tells me, "We're young, I'm faithful you can heal and find someone else to give you what you need." I've been told it could be an early MLC (even though I know thats not really a thing here). Oddly enough, my MIL gave us this site when this all first transpired. I've been reading up on the concepts, even talked about them earlier in our false recovery with H. I've only recently began combing through threads b/c I am so, I don't even know. At first, these threads kept me from being an emotional lump at night and on the weekends, and during the days, but at the advice I've been seeing here, I'm beginning to read others' stories.

I've spoken to trusted family members about this and everyone tells me not to expose to OW's people b/c then I'll be the crazy stalker. I'm not ready to walk away from H and WH is killing me slowly. On a daily basis, I battle with trying to remember H as right now I only know his evil twin. I miss H terribly. Family/friends also think he has lost his mind and have been with me on this since Day 1. But they're energies are exhausted, everyone's energies are. And H just lives in the little hole in the wall he carved out with all of his little toys, far removed from anything meaningful in his life. He avoids all talk about this with our family.

The fact that you mentioned my defensiveness and rudeness is one of my H's complaints about me. And its crazy that you gathered that without even knowing me, I apologize. That actually adds to why I'm afraid - b/c I'm working on a lot of the very things H couldn't stand and he will just tack this onto the list, "crazy b-ch." Again not condoning his behaviors but, I am totally not perfect and have made many mistakes. I've beaten myself up a lot around all of this and I'm not ashamed to admit I failed. But I'm willing to work on it for myself and for H and for our M.

Did you have an affair, beat him, ignore complaints?<---WOULD THAT JUSTIFY AN AFFAIR? Notice how YOU haven't had an affair despite his wicked cruelty?

Basically everyone is rude and defensive when they show up here.

I'm glad you posted because this man has done a number on you. Telling the truth does NOT make you a crazy B. How many marriages have these friends and family saved-zero?

When Dr. Harley recommend exposure on the radio, he refersthem to Melodylane's Exposure 101 thread because that is what he means by exposure.

He left you a list of beat-down complaints to get you to shut up and take the blame. So far, you have played his game. Please get off the crazy train, Tell the TRUTH (exposure) and start Plan B.

And read Ephesians 5 while you are at it.

Why do you care what OW's people think of you? And more importantly, why do your trusted family members care what OW's people think of you?

I bet that MelodyLane is getting ready to say something right now (if she hasn't already because it takes me too long to type lol)....here is what Melody told me a long while ago: "It's not their ox getting gored...it's YOURS".

Everyone will tell you not to expose, except for people who know MB.

Your trusted family and friends have no experience battling affairs. This forum has helped kill many affairs.

The MB plan is a wonderful dummy proof plan. If you study it well, you will find out for yourself. I read a lot and discovered all of it is backed by scientific research. I hate to do things that don't make sense to me. Everything about the MB plan makes sense.

It took me a while to realize that. I hope I can convince you to trust MB and take the advice given on this forum. You can study and reach the same conclusion I did, but it will cost time. It would be best for your situation to save this time and trust the forum to help you.

The moderators see to it that only MB principles are referenced. This is not just any place with random advice, it is a relative safe place online where you get the best advice, based on Dr. Harleys principles.

You are in good hands.

So, are you here to get to work and save your marriage? Or are you here to blog some more? If it is the latter, I will be moving on.

Winning:

I just want to say two more things:
First - STOP listening to the family members who don't know the first thing about saving your marriage. Yes, they hurt for you, and want you to stop hurting, too, so they are telling you the things the *world* would say. My own father was very upset at my WH leaving the way he did....he gave me the money to defend myself in the divorce. TRUST ME! THAT was a big deal (my dad doesn't part with his money for anything). I only say that to say it was a great big deal when I accepted, but told him that I wanted him to know - before he did it - that I was working to put my marriage back together - even tho my WH wanted the divorce (just so he wouldn't be too upset when after the divorce we might end up back together again - which we did). He was confused, but did it anyhow, and then had to tell me years later that I was right! (He didn't understand MB, then or now).

Second point - Once you've exposed the A, and gone dark is the time to work on YOU. That is YOUR time! Not to worry about what WH is doing....but to study all the concepts on here, find out what your LB'ers were and fix YOU. Determine what you can do to become a better wife for the future. It is a good way to spend your time and energy, and keeps you from getting too blue or despondent over what you don't know is happening! My own WH was gone....I mean G-O-N-E. We talked only three times in three years! I had NO idea what he was doing, were they married yet (once our divorce was finalized), was he really happy, yadda, yadda.

Listen: IT DOESN'T MATTER! What will matter during Plan B is strengthening YOU and getting healthy. Mind, soul, body and spirit.

Please utilize the concepts on this site as suggested. It is your best source for wholeness in your future. Lots of prayers for you!

God Bless,

I'm here to save my marriage. I came here for support. And the affair has already been exposed. Just having a hard time with the exposing to her family thing. Think it will only strengthen his resolve. Just looking for support while and coaching as I've been advised to let it die a natural death.

Exposing to her family is part of letting it die a natural death. The two do not exclude each other.

You let it die a natural death AFTER exposure. That has not been completed. We can support you in finishing the exposure and going into Plan B if you decide you want to save your marriage.

Support with how to react/not to react to things. As I look around on here, I see a lot different approaches. Does Plan Bing on its own do anything besides help me move on? Another thought is how does Plan B help if that's exactly what the WH wants?

The approach that we use would be the Marriage Builders program. That approach is exposure followed by Plan B. We don't deviate from that.



Our concern is not what your wayward husband wants, but what you NEED.


Yes, first off, it prevents you from looking desperate and needy, which is very unattractive to men. Hanging around as his option makes it less likely he will come back to you. Secondly, it protects your mental health. Many women have nervous breakdowns in this situation so Dr Harley recommends Plan B in 3 weeks.

Harley says to give it 2 years before you "move on."

I explained that to you in my first (very looong) post!

It forces WH and OW to meet ALL of each others' EN's. Their sordid affair is not based on real love and respect. It's based on lots of suppositions on both parties' parts about what the other person is, and how they will fulfill each other. All lies! They need to find that out to see that this whole thing is a big mistake. With spouses out of the way, they think they will be free to be happy, but once the scales start to fall off their eyes, the truth comes to light (remember what I said about his socks, etc.? lol).

I hear exactly what you're saying OlderWiser. I feel like reaching out to complete strangers that have nothing to do with my problems and my H's decision to do what he did in an effort to make him stop b/c he won't listen to me also makes me desperate and needy.

You're not "desperate and needy" to us, sweetie. We've all been there....

Do you think it is desperate and needy to get professional advice from someone who has saved thousands of marriages? The advice we are giving you comes from Dr. Bill Harley. I wouldn't call that "desperate and needy;" I would call that wise.

But you do not have to take the advice here. You can reject it and move on. I wish you the best.

I definitely don't want to just "move on" from my marriage, I love and miss my H. I'll continue to delve into all of this. I am dealing with a twenty-something year old OW who couldn't give zero about the damage caused. Thats why I keep feeling like its fruitless to bring her family into this. Who knows, they might be morally inept just like she is and say, "that's her problem, not yours."

Thank you all for your help. I will continue to post and seek guidance as I walk through this.

Dont confuse the advice given to women with that given to men (most of the posters around on the front page are men.) Women are encouraged to go into Plan B MUCH faster for two reasons - women tend to experience health problems sooner than men and women tend not to be able to "win" back a wayward spouse as men are.

You dont know this woman or her family. You assume no one will care, but studies show adults see affairs as extremely wrong and disgusting. Someone WILL talk to her about it; you should never expect to hear about it though. As you said, "who knows"

Can you tell exactly what and how you exposed? Exposure is critical as first step. There is a big difference between your friends and relatives knowing your husband is having an affair and proper exposure.

What information do you have on the affair and how much of that came directly from your husband? Did you investigate?

Surviving an affair without proper exposure is like driving a truck without power steering. It might be possible, but you need a great deal more strength and stamina to reach your goal. It will be more likely to fail.

Why don't you e-mail Dr Harley to clarify whether or not you need to expose to OW family?

I told his family what I know about it. He told his family. How/when it started (according to what I know) and he said they ended it. They know who it is. He still claims he's not seeing her and gets mad when I've said something about it. The family never supported it and never will. Friends know and they are hurt and disappointed in him - he avoids anyone/thing that reminds him of the damage he's done.

If I understand correctly, all you know about the affair is what WH told you. Do you have any evidence other than that? Did you for example find evidence in your financial records of affair related purchases, phone records, e-mails?

You might want to read this recent thread, I think it is a good read for anyone in your situation. You will find a lot of good info on exposure and plan B. It also includes an example letter for exposing to the employer.
http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/u...in=172347&Number=2870923#Post2870923

Yes, phone. And I've shared that also. They no longer work together.

My dilemma it's an Exit Affair. And now that we're separated, he's had the space to take it underground even though it's been exposed to family and friends and they have rallied around me in support of the M.

MB doesn't support the notion of exit affairs. That is simply an excuse.

Are you going to write the Plan B letter?

Yes, I am. I've been looking at letters all night and trying to decide what I want to say.

Feel free to post your letter here; we will help. Brevity is good (about a page, if typed and double spaced or 3-4 paragraphs)