6 weeks ago my wife left me after one of many many arguments. After 3 days of texting her and begging her to come home and saying I would do anything to make her happy, she informed me of her affair with a coworker. I told her to just come home and we would work through it, so she agreed.

She said the affair started in January and they started having sex in October and November. She said she ended it at the end of November and told OM she wanted to work on her marriage. So it was three months between when she "ended" the affair and before she informed me of the affair around February 20.

We both cried some and agreed to work on our marriage. She informed her family of the affair and agreed to stop all contact with OM and to be a better wife. We both started individual counseling and talked about how to fix our marriage everyday all day. She was just as sad as me and couldnt eat, but it turned out she was in withdrawal from ending the affair and not from guilt like I thought at the time.

The first 2 days showed promise, but she eventually started being unsympathetic and eventually angry and resentful. After about 4 days she called home crying and sad she was sad because she saw how hurt and sad OM was and she wanted to make him feel better. This hurt me so much that I told her I was done and to go stay with her mom. After a couple days and some texting, we agreed to try again. She informed me that her and OM had

For the next month we fought and made up everyother day. She was still showing no remorse and stopped wanting to mention the affair. We finally decided to go to lawyers, I informed OM's wife (even though OM had already initiated divorce and seperation for irreconcilable diff. 3 months prior), and notified my family. Neither of us had actually paid for a lawyer at this point and we were still considering staying married.

About an hour after I informed OM's wife, my wife called me and was very angry. She said OM is the victim in all this and I was ruining his life. We decided to pay our lawyers in about a week when we both got our paychecks. It was completely over at this point. But then I stumbled across this site.

I told her to let us both stay at home while I found somewhere to stay and saved up some money. She was angry and said no. I said she coukd go about her business and I woukd leave her alone angry long as she let me stay home. She finally agreed. I started doing all the chores and helping out as much as I could and didnt mention the affair at all. I was planning to go about six months before trying plan b. This whole time she was being very mean to me, constantly saying she didn't want to be with me, and still texting and calling OM all day long. After about 4 days she broke down and told me she told OM she coukd no longer talk to him. She sent me the screen shot of the texts where she told him and his replies.

For the next 2 days, she was still being mean and telling me she was only working on our marriage for the kids sake and that she woukd never be happy. Eventually she said she couldn't do it anymore and had to talk to OM. We had had a big fight and she was getting her stuff together to go stay at her mom's. Right before she left I just sat down and quit talking and put on my saddest face. She yelled some more insults and then went to bed. About an hour later she came to bed with me, held my hand and said she told him again she couldn't talk to him anymore.
The next day was perfect. She acted like her old self, wore her wedding ring all day and was in a good mood. We went on a date and had fun. She still wouldn't return my attempts to hold hands or anything, but she seemed very happy. She stopped shutting the door when she would shower. Everything was looking better.
Today she was a little more back to being somewhat in less of a good mood but still seemed to be glad with her decision. She also alluded to the fact that she thinks OM does lie sometimes and try to manipulate. And also that they had had a fight over him texting another girl right before D-day. So it seems she is starting to see he isn't perfect like she swore he was the past month.

Does it sound like we even have a chance at fixing this, or should I just give up?

Should I keep with plan A since it seems to be working?

Will she ever likely show remorse and guilt?

Is it normal for her to be so angry at me sometimes?

Does she still see the OM every day at work? Do they still work together?

Forgot to add that: He left the job they shared about 2 weeks ago. Not because of the affair, but just for his own personal advancement.

That was part of my reason for holding on to a little hope. I figured we would have a better chance now that he is gone from the job.

That is great news! When was the last time she was in contact with him? How close does he live? How easy it is for them to hook up?

Yes good news. Everyday your WW saw the OM at work was causing your WW to be conflicted and back slide into the affair.

This is why when the AP's are co-workers the WW has to quit that job so there will be NC, no contact between the AP's.

Telling the OMW was the best thing that you could do. For the OM was probably lying to your WW that he and the OMW were getting a divorce so the affair would continue. OM are known to be big liars.

If OM lives close you should move far away to ensure that the affair does not restart again.

Affairs cause addictive reactions that is why they are hard to break.

She last contacted him about 3 days ago since we were fighting. Then an hour later she felt bad and told him she couldn't talk anymore. She has had all ways to communicate with him cut off except for Facebook.
I confronted her about Facebook last night but she said she needs to be able to let him contact her since his ex wife is trying to cause trouble for her too. She said she doesnt contact him but she needs him to be able to tell her if his wife is doing something crazy. My wife and OM arent friends on Facebook anymore, but she said he can still contact her thru thr messenger. I said we will never be able to reconcile as long as he can send messages for her to read. I said he will keep sending lies and stuff until he writes something that sticks and causes her to want to reconsider. She said she needs to end this her own way and not by how the internet says she should.
Something tells me this is not good, but considering she wanted a divorce a week ago, I think it may be heading in the right direction.
I assume I should just keep with the plan of being the perfect husband and quit mentioning her contacting him. When I confronted her last night she got mad and said I am always going to be jealous and suspicious for the rest of her life.
I can tell she is feeling a little guilt and that is keeping her from contacting him. It also appears she is starting to like him less and doesn't really want to be with him. But I'm still waiting for her to show real remorse and guilt for hurting me, and commit to a real plan on reconciliation.
He does live within 10 minutes of us, and is very willing to meet up with her anytime she wants to. So that is a problem too.

Even though we have being mostly friendly the past couple days, she still won't show any affection to me or try to touch me in anyway. She did quit shutting the door when she showers or changes clothes though. It's still weird though because I don't really want her to see me naked for some reason. Even though I am in good shape now and feeling attractive, I still feel weird letting her see me naked. It also feels weird trying to touch her or to hold hands.

It sounds like you are familiar with Plan A. I just want to point out that this is not Plan A behavior. Fighting with her and moping around will only make you less attractive, and will make the OM more attractive. You need to stop brawling with her. You can tell her the A hurts you terribly without fighting or moping.

You should consider moving. Are you going for a minimum of 15 hours/week of fun dates with no relationship discussion?

You shouldn't argue but you should not agree for her to continue Facebook or any other contact with OM.

Did you expose the affair or was she the one who told?

Good points. I was doing plan A perfectly for about a week and she came to me and said she cut off contact with OM. So that made me try to move a little quicker and I started "suggesting" boundaries, but that just caused us to fight more. It looks like as long as I completely stick to plan A, she starts making the correct decisions herself.

I just wish she would cut off all possible contact with OM and start seriously trying to reconcile. It sounds like he isn't contacting her much, except for an occasional question here and there. I'm scared he is going to eventually say something though that hooks her back in. She is a sucker for whenever he mentions that he is taking his divorce and ending the affair very badly.

We went on a date the other night and she enjoyed herself. I am also joining her jiu jitsu class (at her request) that she goes to two nights a week. I have always wanted to join in the past but never did, so it's not just a fake attempt on my part.

It is nearly impossible for us to move right now. We don't make a lot of money, and need to stay near our families to help with childcare.

What on this list has been done? What is left to do?

From Surviving an Affair, pg 66-67

The extraordinary precautions do more than end marriage-threatening affairs; they help a couple form the kind of relationship they always wanted.

These recommendations may seem rigid, unnecessarily confining, and even paranoid to those who have not been the victim of infidelity. But people like Sue and Jon, who have suffered unimaginable pain as a result of an affair that spun out of control, can easily see their value. For the inconvenience of following my advice, Sue would have spared herself and Jon the very worst experience of their lives.

Checklist for How Affairs Should End

_____The unfaithful spouse should reveal information about the affair to the betrayed spouse.

_____The unfaithful spouse should make a commitment to the betrayed spouse to never see or talk to the lover OP again.

_____The unfaithful spouse should write a letter to the lover OP ending the relationship and send it with the approval of the betrayed spouse.

_____The unfaithful spouse should take extraordinary precautions to guarantee total separation from the lover OP:

_____Block potential communication with the lover OP (change e-mail address and home and cell phone numbers, and close all social networking accounts; have voice messages and mail monitored by the betrayed spouse).

_____Account for time (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a twenty-four-hour daily schedule with locations and telephone numbers).

_____Account for money (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a complete account of all money spent).

_____Spend leisure time together.

_____Change jobs and relocate if necessary.

_____Avoid overnight separation.

_____Allow technical accountability.

_____Expose affair to family members, clergy, and/or friends.

You don't need to fight with her, but you do need to be clear that the affair is extremely painful for you. You need to clear that not only does all contact need to end, but all avenues of contact need to be eliminated. This include Facebook -- it needs to be shutdown and blocked.

If Facebook is not shutdown and blocked, you will have no hope of recovery.

Do not fight her over it. But do be very clear that you need this to happen.

YOU need to expose this affair. It doesn't matter if she has already told her family, YOU need to be the one who talks to them. Have you done so?


If you do not move, your chances of recovery are very slim. The OM will be a constant threat.

Things seem to be heading in the right direction right now, but from the things she said prior to this week I don't see how her feelings can ever return. She said she has no feelings for me. She said she doesn't think she ever loved me the way she loved OM. Since I was her only boyfriend and lover until OM came along, she said she thinks she can never be happy with me now that she knows how happy someone else can make her.
She also told me (at my insistence) sexual things that she did with OM that she never even came close to doing with me. She also says she can't remember any of the good memories from our past that I try to remind her of.

But after all that, she does seem to be getting better for the past week. I just wonder if anyone has ever recovered from such hostility and anger and saved their marriage?

She did tell her mom and sisters and one coworker, I exposed it to everyone else. OM's wife exposed it to her job.

Yes, all the time. What she is saying is very typical and no surprise. Just about every WW says the same thing. IF the plan is followed closely, with no cherry-picking, then none of what she says will matter. This can be saved, and your marriage can be better than it ever was. But the steps must be followed -- recovery is a very narrow road.

Can you go over that checklist and tell us what has been done, and what is left to do?

You need to talk to her family. They need to hear from you, and how painful this is for you.

Totally normal.

People like to pretend falling in love is a mysterious process. It isn't. If you follow the program, you both can be in love again.

I didn't know there was a checklist. I just read about plan A on the website and I thought all there was to it was to try to meet as many of her needs as possible while not mentioning the affair or anything negative.

I talked to her sister about the affair. She seems to be more into the tough love approach by telling WW that the affair is wrong, and by telling me I should just move on and will be better off eventually.

I tried to talk to her mom, but she is a hardcore enabler and will take my wife's side on anything. Even if my wife decides to start using heroin, her mom will be the one to buy it for her and try to supply her with clean needles.

I was debating telling her dad. He lives in another state, hasn't had much of a presence in her life, and also abuses drugs. I don't know what the effect of telling him would be and I am afraid to find out.

I posted it for you above.

The big missing piece here is exposure. You have not done a comprehensive exposure. Exposure is absolutely critical because it is the most likely to kill the affair and motivate them to end the affair. You should expose to your wife's family, your kids, and most especially the OMs family and friends. You should be reaching out to the OMs parents and family members and asking them to persuade this POS to leave your marriage alone. Are you in touch with the OM's wife comparing notes?

Please go read my exposure thread and come back and let's talk.

Not mentioning the affair comes across as complacence. Complacence reflects a lack of caring.

Have you confronted this dirtbag?

Things will not be headed in the right direction until you successfully run off the OM. You need to understand that recovery is IMPOSSIBLE until that happens. You are NOT in recovery.

Her affair is just like an alcohol addiction. She gets drunk on every contact. Every little phone call, PM or text, puts her back to day 1 of withdrawal. And the longer this goes on the harder it will be to bust up. So your main focus has to be running off the OM. Exposure to his family and Facebook contacts will be very impactful. OM are cowards who don't want trouble.

Her hostility comes from her affair. All of her feelings are being driven by her affair. So everything she says is about as meaningful as the words of a falling down drunk. Kill the affair, kill the affair, kill the affair.

Do your children know all about her affair?

Plan a *is* setting boundaries. I don't think you understand what Plan A means. OF COURSE, the addict is "nicer" if you ignore his drunken state, is that any surprise? Really? Our goal is to save your marriage, your goal seems to be to placate her destructive behavior with complacency and a** kissing. THAT IS NOT PLAN A. Complacency reflects a lack of caring that she won't soon forget if the affair ends.

You need to understand that you are facing divorce if you don't move. The affair will NEVER end as long as her feelings are perpetually triggered by the close proximity. What will happen to your finances if you are divorced? That is the true reality of what you face.

"us to fight more. It looks like as long as I completely stick to plan A, she starts making the correct decisions herself. "

She is still in touch so this is not true. Even so, what you have been doing is not really plan a. You have to focus on killing the affair; that is a huge part of plan a.

Ok, I may be confused about plan A.
I looked at the exposure checklist. When I notified OM's wife a couple weeks ago, me and her together notified their workplace, their friends and OM's parents. It started a huge fight and she said we were done and went to meet up with OM. For a week after that we barely spoke except about lawyer and kids. It pushed WW and OM closer together. I made the mistake of leaving the house though since my lawyer said to let her have it so i could get my other demands.

So after a week I talked her unto holding off on divorce while I stayed home to get my affairs in order. I followed the advice in one of the articles on this site about competing with the OM. After 4 days she cut off contact with him without me asking her too. She was angry for 2 days and fighting with me and ended up contacting him again. Then she cut off contact a day later and apologized to me. Now it has been a few more days and the latest she told me was she cut off all possible contact with him except for Facebook messenger. They aren't friends on Facebook anymore, but she said she needs him to have a way to contact her to warn her if OM's wife is planning something crazy to hurt her. I know this is bullshite, but I don't know how to get her to cut off that last bit of contact.

I did try confronting OM, but he said he is just going to call the cops. So I figured it woukd make me look like an idiot if I got arrested.

You keep bringing it up, on a regular basis. You don't argue or fight, but you do let her know you need it done.
"Your continued contact with OM hurts me horribly."
"You keeping your Facebook account hurts me terribly."

No, it did not "push them together," that is an irrational statement. She got angry because you were interfering her affair. Her anger effectively put you back in your place and now the affair is back on. You are not being strategis, you are being reactive.

And sure, enabling her affair by keeping quiet and pretending the affair is not happening will not piss her off, if that is your goal. Just like pretending a heroin addict is not shooting up will keep him quiet, but neither of those strategies are effective in saving your marriage.

See, we have different goals. Yours is to avoid angering your wife. Ours is to save your marriage. And you won't ever save your marriage by being complacent and enabling. That is NOT plan a and is NOT the approach of Marriage Builders.

You should be contacting the OMs family and friends and doing your best to run this man off.


You are cherry picking the advice and don't understand what you are doing. She contacts the OM because she is ADDICTED. Not because you made her mad on Tuesday. Your focus has to be on killing the affair - not only avoiding her anger. Otherwise she will continue to contact him for years. The way you kill the affair is to keep he pressure up.

Believe it or not, I have read one or two articles here and have listened to thousands of hours of the radio show. You need to apply more pressure to the affair and keep it up until you have run him off. Pretending like the affair is not active when it is is not Plan A.


And you are delusional if you imagine that the affair will end on its own just by being complacent on occasion. If that is the case, then she will be running back and forth on a regular basis whenever you upset her. That is not recovery.

I just want to remind you that her affair is STILL ACTIVE so your methods are not working. You will have to apply more pressure and change your goals. Our goal is to save your marriage - your Goal is to avoid her anger at all costs. That will not work.

Have you exposed to the OMs Facebook contacts? Have you personally spoken to his parents and asked to intervene?

What about your children? Her father? Did you expose to her mother?

" I made the mistake of leaving the house though since my lawyer said to let her have it so i could get my other demands."

When your lawyer gives you marriage wrecking advice like this, keep in mind that his goal is to facilitate an easy, amicable divorce. It is not to save your marriage.

You have moved back, right?

Yes. I am back in the house.
I wasn't sure how to tell the children or if I should, they are 2 and 5 years old.

Oh good! I am glad you are back. The 2 yr old wouldn't understand, but most 5 yr olds do understand the situation when it is explained to them.

Exposing to Children

Here;
"I encourage BHs to confront OM" Dr. Harley

Also:
"Don't put up with OM" per Dr. Harley

Last night I told her it is hurting me badly for her to keep communication open with OM. She tried all the usual excuses. I didn't argue. She ended up storming out at midnight to go stay at her mom's and said she was getting divorce today. She came back home 2 hours later and went to bed. This morning i noticed she had called OM last night after getting to her mom's house.
I asked her this morning what did she do at her mom's. She said she called him and told him not to speak to her anymore. I left for work and she went back to sleep.

This is about the 5th time we've been in this exact situation. Except this time I was more firm and didnt try to argue or convince her not to leave. She also calmed down a lot quicker than the times before. But I did tell her we are never going to have a chance to fix this as long as they are in contact. Before she went to her mom's she said she doesn't want to fix it and she doesn't really want to be with OM or me. This was also the first time she was mad enough to say she doesn't care if I ever get to see the kids or not. Up until last night she has maintained that she wanted me to share 50% custody.

I guess I will see what will happen today. Any advice on what else I should do? I'm going to expose to the rest of the people I didn't expose to yet.

She called me at work this morning and was very angry again. She said she blocked OM on all possible communications and told him not to speak to her again. But she was still fighting with me and saying she doesn't want me to ever mention him.

Look at the Document thread

Expose the affair and KILL IT. If you don't, this will be your future! Every time you look at her sideways,, she will threaten divorce and run to the OM. Do you want to live that way for the next 20 years?


Stop sitting around letting life happen to you and take your life back. Go after the OM with a vengeance and run him off. Stop making yourself at the mercy of the affairees!!

Move forward and do everything in your power to run this rat off. The affair is still active until you do.

And you will have to move if you want to have a marriage. I would start thinking about how you can do this.

This is NORMAL wayward behavior! TOTALLY out of the script that they all seem to play off of. She's mad you've interfered in the affair. Period. She's angry partially at herself because she knows what she did was immoral. Don't give up hope, but don't sit by and do nothing, either.

Agree.

Why is she so against me confronting OM? Anytime this past month that I mentioned trying to find his phone number or address she flies into a rage like she is scared I am going to hurt him or something.

Also, her biggest thing is saying how OM is such a kind and caring and good person, and I am a bad person for wanting to confront him or getting angry. It's so frustrating that she thinks I am the bad guy. This dude has cheated on his wife once before this time. He is also trying to break apart my family and take my kids' father (me) out of their lives,yet he is a good person. She says people change. Just because he had two affairs doesn't mean anything, but I am always going to be a bad person. I don't understand how an educated 30 year old woman can be so blind to logic.

If we go into recovery and have a perfect reconciliation, is it likely she will ever see logic and have remorse and guilt?

Also, 6 weeks ago when she first told me about the affair, we decided to reconcile and everything went perfect and she did everything right. We had sex a couple times and would shower together. This lasted a few days until we fought and started talking about divorce and seperated off and on. Now we are back to trying (me way more than her) and living together. But why is it now that we are both ashamed to see eachother naked? We spent the past 15 years together but now it just seems weird. Is that normal for us both to feel that way?

How is your exposure going? It is really unproductive to post about her wayward behavior. That is about as productive as posting the antics of a falling down drunk. What is critical right now is that you pay attention to the advice we have given you. We don't care about wayward antics, we care about saving your marriage.


I don't understand why a grown man would argue and debate with a falling down drunk. This is all a waste of time.

I get the feeling that we are taking this more seriously than you. Are you here to blog or are you here to follow a plan? just so you know, this is not a blogging forum. If we take our personal time to help you, it is expected that you will take it seriously. If you don't take it seriously, it isn't fair to ask for help.

I'm sorry. I have been taking the advice given. Yesterday I exposed to everyone. I even spoke again to the people I had already exposed to.
I called her job and made sure it was true that OM's wife had already exposed to them. I assured them it was true and OM's wife isn't just crazy. I also spoke to her parents and sisters, Facebook friends, martial arts class members and our neighbors. I told the daycare to be aware in case her or OM tries to do something crazy with the kids. I spoke to some supervisors at OM's new job. OM blocked me from Facebook since D-day, but I got with his wife and we were able to tell his friends and his mom who he now lives with.

I also got OM's number and asked him where I could meet him to talk. He wouldn't tell me. He said I didn't need to meet with him. He said he will no longer contact her. I told him that I will be monitoring all communication to make sure he doesn't.

She was angry all day yesterday and last night and was asking why I did that since she already stopped contact with OM. I simply told her it was because we can never reconcile as long as her and OM see a chance of a relationship. She said she hated me and some other mean things. She said if I mention OM again, she is going straight to him to have sex.

By bedtime she was calmed down a lot. She does seem to be sad like the withdrawal is starting now, but she also seems defeated like she sees no other option but to stay with me and try to make it work. She definitely doesn't seem like she is with me because she loves me.
What do I do now? If the affair is really ended and she is in withdrawal, am I supposed to be telling her I love her and trying to meet emotional needs, even though she ignores it? Or am I supposed to wait until withdrawal eases up?

You told him that you would be monitoring your wife?

How is that going to help you, exactly? What do you think they will do about their communications now?

Now you keep doing what you are doing and start following the rest of the plan to change how she feels about you. She doesn't love you, and this plan will change that.


Do you have the book Surviving an Affair? Do you have the Marriage Builders app, and are you listening to Dr. Harley's show daily?

Yeah, I wouldn't have told him that - I would tell him to stay away from my wife or there will be terrible, terrible consequences, and I would make it abundantly clear that I love my wife and that I want to stay married to her and that he must get out of the picture or else.

And I'd be sure to tell his mother and his boss and his preacher and his wife and his other girlfriends what a slimeball he is.

I was afraid to threaten him too much since he is a police officer now. I did insinuate there would be consequences though. I was hoping he would try to be agressive or something, but he just said ok and that he understands. My wife already told him I could see all of their communications when she told him not to speak to her anymore. I just made sure he knew not to talk to her even if she tries to contact him.

I am going to order the books when I get off work today. I keep forgetting about the radio show but I will look into that now.

I am worried that if I am too affectionate while she is in withdrawal and ignoring my affection or not returning it, that I will appear needy or scared or insincere. Is this not the case, or is there certain things I shouldn't do?

That was not wise to talk about the monitoring. The other posters are trying to tell you it will just drive their communications deeper underground.
It happened to me. My WW found out I installed a spyware on her phone and she got her Enabler friend to buy her a Secret Second Phone. I was doing a great Plan A but she was not responding truly to R. Turned out she was continuing to communicate with OM and at the same time plotting to file for Divorce. I couldn't figure out why she wasn't responding until a did I spent a lot of time searching our house and found the evidence.
Definitely also get a VAR and strategically deploy it.

I'm still confused about plan A. I just re-read the article. If plan A is to get the WS to stop contact with the OP, what do I do once that happens. Obviously this is only day one and they could already be talking again for all I know, but do I just keep reminding my WW everyday to not talk to OM, or do I just keep meeting her needs while she appears to be in withdrawal?

Would you care to answer my post?

I may be safe on what I told OM about monitoring their communication. I just told him that she is letting me see everytime he contacts her and that I can see texts and calls on the phone account. WW already knows everything shows up in the phone account and I'm sure she told him, that's why they had recently only been communicating through Facebook messenger.
So they can still talk on facebook messenger without me seeing. She told me her password the other day, but I don't know how to log in to look without her getting an email saying someone logged in from another device.

Surely you can see my point - you are not safe at all.

All you've done is alerted him to the fact that he needs to communicate with her in a way that you do not know about. You've alerted her to that, too, which is why she is using FB messenger.

You need to become smarter about this, and not give away the fact that you are snooping.

You are nowhere near being in Recovery yet, and your wife has not agreed to end the affair and live a transparent life with you. Therefore you need to treat any passwords she gives you as useless, and find a proper way to spy on her communications. And here a tip: if you tell someone that you are spying on them, you are a rotten spy. Don't give up the day job, if that's what you understand by "spying".

I understand what you are saying about the spying and that I made a mistake by mentioning it to OM. But I'm missing something else here. Does plan A continue until WW agrees to live transparently and start recovery?

Usually Plan A for men continues for 6 months

And what happens right now if I spy and I find out they are still talking?. Do I confront WW about it or is it just so I will know she is still lying to me?

You continue to confront her - without giving up your sources - and raising hell with the OM. Is the OM back with his wife? What is his marriage status?

Once again, this will be your life forever if you don't move away. Are you ok with an on again, off again affair for years? She is very addicted to this man and will remain in a state of perpetual withdrawal until she is far away from the OM. The fog will never end. NEVER.

I think you believe you can skip this step, but it won't work.

OM is still seperated. Their divorce will be final in a week.

Right now I know they talk on facebook messenger. I can't see who she is talking to, but I can see she is on messenger and ignoring my phone texts. I can't prove who she is talking to until I find a way to look in her messenger. She has been responding to my texts all day until I see she is on messenger and then my texts start getting ignored.

Am I even really in a plan A if the only reason we are together is because she feels sorry for the kids not being able to see me much after we seperate? She hasn't agreed to be transparent or even to start working on the marriage. The closest I have come to beginning recovery is her saying she blocked OM from any contact and being fairly nice every other day or so. But everytime she blocks contact and seems to be in withdrawal, a day or two later she is back in a good mood and keeping her phone glued to her hip.

I don't see how I will get her to agree to move right now if she won't even agree to be transparent.

If I go into Facebook messenger and it says someone is "active now" or "active 5 minutes ago", does that mean they are using the messenger to talk to someone or does it say "active now" just because they are on facebook?

It just means they have been logged into FB for that amount of time, doesn't actually mean they used it 5 minutes ago.

Your wife's behavior is exactly the same as my WW after D-Day. She pretended to want to work on the M but was plotting D the whole time. My WW was doing the same thing, alternating between cold and warm. She also hid her phone and would not give me the passwords.

You are not in Recovery. You need to up your surveillance game. Did you get the VARs?

Where does this information come from? The OM's wife?


So if she is still in contact, then you should DEMAND that she end her affair and cut off all contact. Keep this on the front burner until she ends her affair.

And what EXACTLY did the OM's mother and father say about the affair? Are they helping you?


Plan A is not about HER but about you. IT means you a) work to kill the affair and b) do your best to present an attractive picture. She won't allow you to meet her needs, but let her know you will meet her needs if she ends her affair.


Then what is the plan?? What is her plan?


You should start making plans to move away. Not immediately, of course, but in the next 3 to 6 months. It doesn't matter if she agrees today. You can move away at some point and she can follow you. That is your ONLY hope. Your marriage will never recover living there with the OM. Never.

Plan A is the plan used to break up an affair and get your wife out the fog, by doing whatever you can to break up the affair (exposure, running off OM) and presenting yourself as the best option (not fighting, being your best self, doing nice things for her, etc.). It is separate than recovery. You seem to think you Plan A is a part of recovery and that is not the case.

If you successfully bust up the A, and your wife agrees to recover the marriage, at that point you will work toward a marriage that is better than it was pre-A and is safeguarded from future A's. That will include BOTH of you practicing a marriage of extraordinary care, not just you (such as it is with Plan A). You are no where near recovery yet, as you know.

I got the info about divorce from OM's wife. I'm trying not to talk to her much anymore, because she is trying to cause more damage than I am comfortable with (borderline illegal).

My wife doesn't really have a plan. Last we discussed, was just her stopping all contact with OM and getting over him and then figuring out a plan. A few days ago she was hanging on by a thread. Now she is a fraction more afraid to divorce me. She coukd still go either way really. And honestly, I am not sure I can ever be happy with her. I want her to get over OM and see if she returns to somewhere close to the girl I used to love. I still don't know if I can get over the affair. I had to quit thinking about it until I can figure out how to get her to stay.

I was able to get into her Facebook and messenger accounts since they stay open on the iPad. I don't know passwords if they get closed though. But it appears she was telling the truth about blocking OM from it. He doesn't appear in the search. Of course she deleted their prior conversation though. But they coukd still use kik messenger or something else.
I wish there was a way to reopen the cloud on the iPad. She used to have her phone texts linked to the iPad through the cloud. But I don't know the password or username.

Hi Dollarbob,

I'm praying for you. Don't waste valuable time trying to rationalize your WW behavior, my wife was saying exactly the same things. Affairs are like watching the same old movie, over and over again.

That's what's so weird about all this. She was always different than every other girl I ever met. But the way she is acting now is exactly following the script.

OM's father is dead, but his mom just said apologized for him and said he is just confused. She blamed it mostly on his ex wife though. She doesn't appear to be much help.

The person who could help the most is my wife's sister, but she thinks because we fought so much for the past year or two that we are unfixable. She doesn't understand that we fought so much because the affair was going on that whole time, even though I was unaware. Plus she is in med school and has very little time. But she has been good at getting my WW to feel a little guilt.

I thought my WW was unique too until she started saying the same exact words (in almost the same sequence) as most of the posts on this forum. It's almost like they memorized it when they went to Affair School!

So right now she claims to be in full no contact with OM. We are getting along pretty good. No fighting and no more angry outbursts from her. I even made her laugh once or twice. She doesn't seem to be in withdrawal though. So I assume they are having contact that I haven't discovered yet. Earlier, I asked her why isn't she sad any (she knows what I mean from me talking about withdrawal so much before I started plan A). She just stared at me for a few seconds and said "I thought I said I didn't want to talk about that?"

Sometimes while lying in bed I will rub the hair on her head or rub her shoulder. In the mornings I have been kissing her on the forehead when I leave for work and she is still laying in bed. Should I stop the physical attention and focus on just being friendly and helpful, or keep doing that?

Have you asked her on fun dates?

What was your intent by asking her this? You should keep the focus on you and her building a better marriage. If this was your idea of trying to get her to confess that's she's still in contact that's a bad idea. You need to spy and stop believing you can trust what she says. She's in an affair fog remember.

If she's continuing to communicate with him then you confront her.

Plan A helps in two ways. It, hopefully, helps your WW find feelings for you again and it leaves a remembrance of what kind of spouse you are should she decide to leave the M.

You need to do whatever you can to meet her needs while you spy. What you've explained here sounds like very nice things to do and so long as she isn't pushing you away I'd say keep doing them. Meet the needs she allows you to and work on the ones she's reluctant on.

What are you doing to become the happy, fun guy she would love to be around?

By some of your posts I get the impression you're too busy navel gazing trying to determine what she's thinking. Your job right now is to entice her while validating that she's stopped contact. Get busy.

Did I miss something? Is there a reason you can't put a keylogger or some other form of spyware on this iPad that she uses FB on?

I asked her on dates a little bit. We went to the movies a few days ago. I'm going to try to do something fun this weekend too. We have pretty much been spending all of our leisure time together. The only times we are apart really is when we are both at work. She used to leave a lot and go to the "store" for an hour or so, and that's when her phone activity woukd increase dramatically. But she hasn't been leaving to go anywhere by herself since supposedly going "no contact".

Hypothetically, if she really is following the no contact policy like she says, should she already be showing guilt and remorse and a willingness to repair the marriage, or would all that still take a while? A few other people told me their spouses took about 6 months AFTER ending the affair before they started to show remorse.

Also, I was able to get into all of her chat accounts that I could find. It looks like those are all clear. Any past communication has been deleted I'm sure, but there is nothing new going on.

She doesn't use the iPad anymore and hasn't used it in a while. Luckily the last time she did use it she didn't close facebook out.

By asking if she was sad, that was my attempt to remind her that it will still hurt me if she contacts OM. That was the only way I could think to bring it up without openly asking if she contacted him.

Don't ask her. Just find out by being a super sleuth. When you find out she's in contact THEN tell her how much it hurts you.

Suppose I find out she sends him a text. Do I tell her I know she contacted him, or do I just remind her that if she does it will hurt me? It looks like their only form of communication is instagram, so if I tell her I know they talked, she is going to figure out that I saw it on instagram.

When you find contact, you should DEMAND that she end her affair. but you should also accept that this will be your future if you don't move. Are you willing to accept that?

The purpose of spying is to end the affair so it is important that you use that Intel to persuade her to end her affair.

I'm looking into moving. I have a meeting with my boss later to see about positions open in other states. The company has jobs all over the country.

Great!

What do I do? Should I look into everything and get it set up before I tell her, or do I tell her now? I have a feeling she will be glad if I move, so she can keep the kids and have her affair without me interfering.
She holds most of the cards right now. The way everything was worked out when we were both seeing lawyers, she woukd keep house and give me the kids every other week. Something to do with the low equity in the house and the amount in my 401k, the lawyer said it would be better to let her have the house. She was going to get her mom to move in the house with her so she can help pay bills and basically replace me completely. So to her a divorce looks very attractive. It seems the only thing holding her is she has a little bit of feelings for me or maybe just feels sorry for me and the kids.

I think Melody was suggesting that your whole family move, not just you!

Just start looking into it and tell her that moving will be essential in the recovery of your marriage.


I would stop cooperating with her divorce ideas and tell her you would rather sell the house and move. The lawyers suggestion is based on his goal of your getting divorced. Your goal is to save your marriage. You could even rent it out and move.

Yeah. I did tell her I'm not getting divorced since it will be hard for me to see the kids with my job if they don't live with me. A few days ago she was mad and said she was going to the lawyer anyway and kicking me out, but I ignored her and she calmed down.

I logged into her snapchat account and I can see she sent OM a pic. It won't let me see what the pic is but I can imagine. What should I do now?

You take a photo of the contact and save it in a safe place. Let her know that you know she is still in touch with the OM and ask her to end her affair. Tell her this will lead to divorce if she doesn't end all contact.

What about when she says fine and then leaves? She has been saying she wants a divorce and is just staying with me because she feels sorry for me. Every so often she has a moment where it looks like she is changing her mind, but mostly we just don't discuss anything.

I tried to call OM a couple times but he just silenced them on the first ring. So I texted him to stop talking to my wife and to let it go. He just resent me my message but put his wife's name instead of mine.

WW texted me right afterwards to ask if I picked the kids up. Guess she didn't want to tell me that he told her I called him. I'm waiting for her to get home before I mention anything. If she comes home now.

Now I am not sure if he told my wife that I spoke to him or not. She got home and was acting fine. I didn't see any contact between them during any of my spying. I saw she did get a text at 9pm from an IP address instead of a phone number. That coukd have been OM trying to circumvent her having his number blocked on the phone or just trying to hide his number from showing up on the account. She didn't respond to it though.
I didn't mention to her or OM that I knew they were snap chatting yesterday. I still don't know how to confront her without giving away that I can see the account. But I did manage to see most of their conversation and pictures. It was just them sending silly pictures of themselves with painted on hair and makeup. Nothing sexual at this point, but still plenty enough to prevent recovery.

Sorry for the multiple posts, just trying to keep everyone updated in case there is some advice. Me and WW texted this morning. She asked why OM's number showed up on the phone account. I told her I talked to him. I also told her she needs to quit talking to him. She lied and said she hasn't talked to him and that I just don't trust her. She said we will never work because I don't trust her. I just said that her talking to him causes me great pain. She said, "then let us get divorced then." I told her I just want her to give us 1 good chance without talking to him for more than 2 days. She didn't respond. Probably discussing it with OM right now.

Tell her that YES, this will go to divorce if she doesn't end her affair. LEt her know you are watching her and that you know she is still in touch with the OM. Tell her if she wants you to trust her, she must a) end her affair and b) give her open access to all of her devices. Tell her "that is how yuo can EARN my trust."

Whether it was "sexual" or not completely misses the point. The point is that this was a CONTINUATION OF THE AFFAIR. They can be talking about bible scriptures and it would still be a CONTINUATION OF THE AFFAIR. Do you see? The subject matter does not matter, what matters is the continuation of the affair. ANY CONTACT IS A CONTINUATION OF THE AFFAIR.

WW: She said we will never work because I don't trust her.
DB: do you want me to trust you? I can show you how
DB: I learn can trust you if you will end your affair and make your life transparent to me

Just be a broken record when she plays the "you don't trust me" card. [it is a manipulation tactic] and say "would you like me to show you how I can trust you?"

Don't laugh in her face when she says such silly things. It would be a lovebuster. But know that she is just feeding you the typical WW script, and is probably just trying to get a rise out of you.

Be calm, cool, and collected. The suggestion Melody has given you is golden: "Would you like me to show you how I can trust you?"

She also says she is never going to trust me either. She keeps checking the phone account to see if I'm talking to OM's wife or having an affair of my own.
I did what y'all said and told her everything about trust and showing her I can trust her.
She said she is going to pay the lawyer today and wants me out of the house. I said I'm not leaving. She still maintains she didn't talk to OM yesterday. She even called me psychotic. But the last couple times she said she was going to the lawyer, I ignored her and she came home. Probably will be the case this time.
She has a girl friend at work that takes her side on everything and gives her advice and says I'm wrong in everything. So she messes her head up everyday that she goes to work.

If we do go to court eventually, will any of my evidence of them talking or her admitting to the affair in texts benefit me in anyway?

Nothing wrong with that. Is there something wrong with being in contact with the OM's wife? No, there is not.


Did you let her know that, yes, this will lead to divorce if she doesn't end her affair?


Admission of the affair is evidence. But whether or not that benefits you in court depends on your state.

I didn't say anything about divorce. I just said she needs to stop the affair because it is hurting me badly. She said she hasn't talked to him, but also that she wants to get divorced because I will never trust her.
She keeps saying I am holding her hostage by not agreeing to leave the house and not letting her get a divorce. I am afraid if I say "stop the affair or I am getting divorced", she will say "I did stop but go ahead, I want to be divorced." That's how she responded when I first attempted recovery a month ago. I don't know how I am supposed to respond to that though.
I also didn't tell her I have proof that they talked yesterday, because she will just change her snapchat password and I want to be able to get some more evidence.

Good!

Nothing is stopping her from getting a divorce if she wants one.
She is also free to leave the house. Although you should make it clear that you are willing to build a romantic marriage with her that is better than what you had before.

Don't say it that way. Say: "Our marriage will not survive if you continue contact with OM. It will end in divorce. I would prefer to build a loving, happy, romantic marriage with you, but I need you to end all contact with OM."

She may say "Fine! Get a divorce then!" Then just become a broken record -- "I would prefer to build a loving, happy, romantic marriage with you, but I need you to end all contact with OM."

She is perfectly free to get a divorce. She is not free to kick you out of your home. If she is truly being "held hostage" she should call the sheriff.


Stop being afraid and tell her the truth, if she doesn't end her affair this will lead to divorce. Just say it. Otherwise, she will continue to use it as leverage. So if she responds that she wants to be divorced, ask her what her plan is.


So let her know that you are watching her [you don't have to tell her how] and you know she is still in touch. The point of intel is stop the affair, NOT for voyeuristic purposes.

Is there a reason why she doesn't want you to contact the OM's wife? She seems pretty concerned about that for some reason.

Ok prisca. That sounds exactly like what I have been saying. I have slipped up up few times and argued a little bit, but not much and I haven't been mean or raised my voice.

Oh well. She got home from work and was being friendly. Then she asked what are we doing? I repeated all the same stuff about stopping the affair and quit lying. She told me she talked to OM today. She was still lying about talking to him yesterday though. Finally she said she doesn't want to fix things and that she is going to meet up with OM right now and have sex and will send me a video and she is getting divorced Monday. She said she is happy when she talks to him and not with me. So I showed her the proof I had. She laughed, said "i knew you were sneaky" and left. She left the kids with me.
I guess that is probably it for good this time. Should I move out and go no contact, or wait it out or just give up or what?

Update:
She left and kept calling me from her mom's house to ask a bunch of questions about me catching her lying. I just kept telling her it was painful for me and I didn't want to talk about it. After about 45 minutes she came home and was trying to talk. I kept telling her it was painful and I didn't want to talk about it. She asked what did I want to do? I said all I wanted was for a real chance with her not talking to OM for at least a few weeks to see if we could rebuild. She tried to talk some more but I said it was too painful and I didn't want to talk about it. Finally, she said "I guess I'm going to go stay at mom's and I'll be back in the morning. Maybe it will be better tomorrow but I doubt it."

You REALLY need to stop thinking of her as some rational logical person who has things all planned out. She is NONE of the above. She is the equivalent of a drug addict who will do or say anything to try and get you in line so she can get her fix and carry on her affair without disruption.

If she really wanted a divorce, she would have filed already. Until she does, if you want to fight for your marriage you need to just plug your ears to all her silly fogbabble.

Stay the course.

She is working very hard to get you to fight with her. The reason is because it is much easier for her to run to OM if you are being a terrible person. If you are being calm, cool and collected, and simply telling her you want to create a great marriage, it is much harder for her to reconcile her actions in her own head.

Don't take the bait.

I believe you are right.

Suppose WW decides to follow the plan for recovery and gives me passwords for everything, am I supposed to give her access to all my stuff too? Seems like she could trick me and pretend to be in recovery just to sabotage me, or if I dont, she can say she won't build my trust if I don't build hers.

No, you wouldn't give her access to any spy resources and certainly not access to your account with MB.

You don't give her ability to sabotage you.

Also, what if she goes Monday and files for divorce and I am forced to leave? Do I go plan B then or does that mean it's game over?

Why would you be forced to leave your home? You should not leave unless you are presented with a court order by an armed sheriff.

You might want to pick up a little pocket voice activated recorder at Walmart before you speak to her again. I would start recording your conversations in case she makes false allegations of "abuse." If she is that hell bent on getting you out [so she can carry on her affair] she may do that to get you removed by the police.

Here Men, Don't Leave your Home

Yeah. I told her I am not leaving unless the police make me leave. Unfortunately, due to the laws in our state and how the mortgage is set up, the lawyer said it would be better for me to leave if we end up getting divorced. But Today she has been back to acting un-hostile. We bought some new couches and it was almost like a pre-affair day. Maybe OM is with his kids today or something.
She has $2000 in our joint account that she is saving in case she decides to pay the lawyer (my mom is holding my money in case of a need to pay the lawyer). Should I withdraw that money and hold on to it, just to make a future divorce harder for her? Or is that bad?

Melody, suppose she does end up paying the lawyer Monday and filing for divorce. At what point could I be forced to leave by police? Would it be immediately or would it take a while?

But, you are not divorced, so I am confused why you said this. Are you divorced?


Honestly I don't understand why you post things like this. What does her mood have to do with the situation? The Titanic is sinking and you are posting about the weather. Please keep your focus on the AFFAIR and saving your marriage. Can you do this?



I would take half the money and stop your paychecks from going into this account so she doesn't wipe you out.

Ask your lawyer. However, I am not aware of any spouse who was able to kick a spouse out of his own home in the absence of extreme abuse. Typically, it takes the COMPLETION of the divorce, which can take months or years. And even then, she may end up being the one who has to leave.

I guess me and WW are both just ignorant on divorce. We both assume that as soon as one of us files, police come and force the other to leave. So everytime she gets mad she says she is going to file and that I need to have my stuff out of the house by the time she gets home. I have been assuming this is true. T

The house is in her name, but we closed on the house after our marriage. In our state, that makes it half mine but after a divorce I woukd have to refinance it to keep it. I don't have credit or income enough to keep it. Neither does she, unless her mom moves in with her as per her plan. There is more in my 401k then there is equity in the house. The lawyer said she is entitled to half of my 401k. But her lawyer said they will just keep the house and forfeit the portion of my 401k. All of this was was a month ago when we were both wanting to divorce. This was before I found this website. Neither of us have talked to lawyers since.

As of now, we are not getting divorced. But she is still thinking in her mind that we can stay married and her and OM will just be friends and as long as they don't have sex, everything will be ok.

I don't know why I focus on her mood so much. I guess I am hoping someone will recognize some of her behavior and say it's a sign that she is moving in the right direction.

You know that is ridiculous, right?


As long as she is in touch wtih the OM, she is not moving in the right direction. This is why you have to continually demand she end her affair.

We got along good yesterday. This morning I texted her and said she needs to cut contact with OM and give me all her passwords. She said she isn't living like that and doesn't want to work on things. What am I supposed to day to that? All I knew to do was just repeat myself. She said stop talking to her.

It's been less than a month of trying plan A and I already feel like I am losing my patience.

Don't have important conversation via text. Have you done anything fun with her in the last week?

Yeah. We do something fun together at least once per week.

We been getting along fairly well the past few days. I been telling her to stop the affair a couple times everyday. I told her again this morning and she got mad and said she can't live like this and that I will never trust her. Same thing that she said a few days ago.

Am I doing this right? We get along fairly well until I mention for her to stop the affair everyday. It seems like it sets us back everytime I do it.

What is setting you back is her AFFAIR. Keep in mind that the goal here is to save your marriage, not to placate a cheating wife.

When she says you "will never trust her" I would be a broken record and tell her you can show her HOW to earn your trust. "Do you want me to trust you? Let me show you how."

And once again, this situation will never change unless you move away from this area. I would start making plans to move out of the area. Your only hope is that she will eventually follow you.

This is like a passenger on the sinking Titanic saying "things have been smooth the past few days." Your wife is in an affair so things are NOT WELL.

Also, you should be going on fun dates at least 4 times per week.

I was doing some snooping looking for passwords a little while ago, and I found some old text messages from when the affair was still undiscovered. I found out WW lied to me about most of the details she told me on D-day. On D-day she was crying and doing everything right. So I trusted most of the details. But this stuff was so bad that I don't know if I can ever recover. And it was only texts from a 3 day period.
She knew I was snooping, because when I turned her computer on it logged into imessages and sent her a notice. She called me immediately and rushed home from work. I told her what I saw. She laughed and said she was going to her mom's because it's embarrassing. She texted me a few times and I just repeated the stuff about stopping the affair and showing me how to trust her. But I'm pretty hurt now and don't even know if I want to still be married to her. I plan to keep following plan A, but I don't know if I will ever get past this. And I don't know if I really want her or if I am just afraid of divorce.

Have you been to your doctor for some ADs?

Very sorry for your pain Bob. Neither of those look like good options I'm sure. The pain is too raw right now. Give yourself some time.

You are getting hammered with the trickle discovery. Who knows if and when that will end for you. Sounds like you're going to again have to ask her to give you the full story and if you feel strong enough about it let her know if you discover any more untold truths it will probably be the end of the M.

You have to get the whole story before you can recover. If you get that then you can move on and never talk about the affair again.

I did get on anti depressants and they have helped a lot. But it is hard because plan A was fairly easy to follow when i thought I knew all the details and had gotten over it for the most part. But now i dont feel like doing anything nice for her. She usually sneaks and contacts OM on snapchat or instagram, but everytime we fight she openly calls him on the phone and causes me more pain when I see it on the phone bill.

What details did you discover? Do they make a material difference in the facts, compared to what she told you on D Day?

I don't think it was anything that makes a difference, just proves that she lied and seeing her words unedited, makes it more real.
She originally said the physical affair took place at their offices at work, but now I found out it actually happened at our house at least once, and possibly while the kids were there.
Everything else was just sex talk about how great it was.

Also, during our fight last night I just kept repeating that the affair hurts me and I want her to stop. She said she doesn't want to stop and that when she tried before it was too miserable.
I woukd think she would feel guilty and at least lie and say she is trying to stop. I would at least do that if I was in an affair.
Is plan A supposed to be this difficult? It's only been close to a month but I don't see any hope. I had hope before because when I started plan A it brought her from imminent divorce, to living back together while openly contacting OM and finally to her hiding contact with OM. So it was making a little progress in the right direction. I know she is crazy right now and nothing she does makes sense, but it is so hard to keep going. I want to go beat OM physically, but everytime I try he and WW both work against me and try to get me arrested. It feels like I am just stuck being her personal assistant and helping her continue the affair.
Is it normal to feel this way?

When are YOU going to stop fighting her?

You've tried to beat the OM up?

Yes. A million times yes. Plan A is not for the faint of heart.

I havent fought with her any. It's always her fighting with me and I just ignore it or repeat for her to stop the affair. Last night I was about to start arguing with her so I got in my car and left for 20 minutes to calm down.

Everytime I try to confront OM she tells him and he threatens to call the cops or get a restraining order. He won't answer my calls when I call. I do want to beat him up, but I don't want to do anything illegal and get in trouble and look like a fool.

And tomorrow is her birthday and I guess I should get her a present but I really really don't want to right now. I had been looking forward to her birthday so I could be extra nice, but now it's just too painful.

It's up to you to decide whether you want to keep going in Plan A, or whether a material difference like learning that they had sex in your home is a deal-breaker. I don't think anybody here, or Dr H, would fault you for saying that you cannot go on, given what you have learned.

However, you need to accept that she lied and minimised to you about what happened during the affair. If you are going to plough on with Plan A, you have to fight the urge to collapse emotionally each time you discover more details. Sadly, I have to tell you that you don't know half of what they did, and what you don't know is likely to be devastating if you ever find it out. There are likely to be gifts, vows, unprotected sex, and all manner off things that would shock you if you knew about them. But that's what people in affairs do - they trash the marriage and say vile things about the BSs, and profess undying love for each other. That's the nature of the beast.

If you are going to push on with Plan A, you have to rise above your hurt. You know she is still in her affair, so you know that you will be treated badly on a daily basis.

But yes, in Plan A you should buy her a nice gift for her birthday. If you can't do it, put an end to Plan A.

Confront him without her knowledge, then.
And if he gets a restraining order on you ... so? It's not like you want to be around him, anyway. Be confident and firm, but calm.

Thanks for the good advice Sugarcane and Prisca.
I feel better this evening after exercising earlier and I think I will continue with plan A. One question though: everytime I mention for her to end the affair, she gets madder and uses that as an excuse to sneak and contact OM. So it seems like it makes him look like the calm and reasonable guy and me the controling and aggravating one. Is it really helping for me to keep mentioning that she needs to stop the affair? I usually send her a message on the way to work in the morning to say I love her and that the affair has to end, and usually once more in the evenings around supper time.

Just keep asking her to end her affair. She is seeing the OM because she is addicted to him, not because you put pressure on her.

Do you want to give her the impression that she can shut you up by seeing the OM? Will seeing the OM put you in your place so you will shut up out of fear? Because that is what she is trying to do. That is not the kind of weak message you want to give to a manipulator because it will only embolden her.

Also, shutting up will not stop her from seeing the OM. She sees him because she is addicted to him. Wild horses could not force her to see him if she didn't want to see him.

Good points Melody. Thank you.

You are doing well. But Plan A is not for the faint of heart.

Yeah it is rough. I went to bed feeling ok and then woke up immediately thinking about things again. I looked at the phone account and seen that OM texted WW right at midnight last night since it is her birthday today. She was asleep though but I'm sure she saw it this morning and I imagine they are talking all morning since she is barely responding to my texts. And since she has lied so much, I have to assume they are still meeting up everyday. I've been keeping pretty good tabs on her but I can't account for all her time all the time.
I'm still looking into a GPS for her car and a camera for the house, it's just very expensive.

I'm about a month into Plan A. She got mad this morning about something trivial and was cursing me like a dog (in front of the kids) on our way to the grocery store. I just ignored it and told the kids a joke to make them laugh. After she finished venting for 20 minutes or so, her mood improved and the rest of the day was mostly incident free. She mostly just watched tv all day while I did chores and a couple other little things she asked me to do for her.
Am I still doing everything right? It was real hard to sit quietly and act unbothered while being cussed at, especially in front of the kids. It was also even harder to do chores for her after all of that. It seems like she will see me as weak and unmanly and make me look even less attractive.

What was she mad about?

She was mad that I left her Ipad at work instead of bringing it home. She has had a bad temper like that since her and OM became close friends about 2 years ago, which is really when the affair started (even though she maintains it didnt begin until they started flirting about a year ago). Before D day, I thought the temper was a result of the second child being born. Unless maybe its the child and the affair combined.
Also, should I have the 2nd child paternity tested? He looks just like me and from my snooping it looks like the sexual affair didnt begin until the child was already 2 years old. But I cant trust anything WW says.

That isn't a little thing.

She is only worried about the iPad because she thinks I am using it to spy (I was until she changed all her passwords). I'm trying to figure out how to jailbreak it and put a keylogger on it before I give it back, but I can't find a jailbreak for ios 9.0.2.

Or it is an expensive piece of equipment that is now exposed to theft. I would be upset if my husband took my tablet and left it somewhere. Get the jailbreak done today.

Calling this "trivial" is a disrespectful judgement. You are going to need to stop those. It's a lovebuster, and will damage your Plan A.

"Mind reading" is also a disrespectful judgement. Using the word "only" in this context is a disrespectful judgement as well.

I see what you guys mean. I didn't tell her it was trivial or anything like that. I told her the iPad was still in my locker at work and that I was sorry for forgetting it. Then I just ignored her while she called me worthless and stupid.

It doesn't matter if you told her it was trivial. If you think it, you can bet that she can tell.

You need to start training yourself NOW to value your wife's concerns. Yes, you had a valid reason for taking her iPad. But it wasn't trivial to her, and to devalue her concern over it is a lovebuster. She has a point of view about it that's different than yours -- do not put yourself in a position that is allowed to judge what is trivial and what is not.

Oh, ok. I see. Thanks for the info. That makes sense.

I havent mentioned the affair or reminded WW to end the affair in about 3 days since I haven't seen any evidence of contact during my limited snooping. It seems like last night the fog may have lifted some, at least temporarily. Of course she could be hiding it better, but her attitude was better and she seemed to be responding to plan A a little better.
Should I resume telling her to end the affair everyday, even if I have no proof, or wait until I see or suspect something? I'm pretty sure she hasn't ended it yet, because she doesn't seem to be in full on withdrawal. She does seem to be having a small bit of withdrawal, but nothing like that first week she tried no contact 2 months ago.
Also, I have a bunch of unanswered questions about the affair still. Can I try to ask some of those questions now or wait until we start recovery? And should I ask her if she ended contact yet or what?

Im pretty sure she talked to OM while at work today, because she barely responded to any of my texts today and she seemed to be a littke more energetic and careless when she got home. I still cant find any proof though so I havent mentioned anything as of yet. Today makes 3 whole days that I havent mentioned OM or told her to cut contact. We have been having nice long conversations (about random topics) and I have actually been able to make her smile and laugh sometimes--that hasnt happened in months.
Im still wondering if it is ok to skip a few days every so often and not mention anything to do with the affair? Or is that problematic? Of course I dont want her to think the affair is ok as long as im not mentioning it, but its also hard to find an opening to mention stopping contact while we are both in good moods.
Any advice please?

What can you do to confirm if she has contact with OM while she's at work?

How do you know he left the job?

You need to expose this affair to her employer, even if you have cast-iron proof that he has left the job. Tell them that they conducted their affair during company time, and ask for their help in ensuring they are not using workplace resources to contact each other now.

I see that you did notify at the workplace. What was their response? Contact them again, asking them for their help in making sure she is not using work time or resources to maintain contact during the day.

I did expose to the job. He tried to come back about a week after he quit, but he ended up not coming back. He is a police officer now and I have friends that work with him that confirm he is working his new job everyday. I have also intercepted text messages between him and WW during the day that confirms he is at his new job.

She could be talking on her work phone to him and I wouldn't know. But I found lots of texts and calls from her cell phone to him while she is at work, so maybe she isn't able to use the work phone too much for that for some reason. Of course I assume she is on the work phone talking to him non stop at work though.

I just went back and looked at the phone records as far back as I could see. It looks like they started texting very very heavily since early January 2015. I can't go back but a week before that though, so it could have started even earlier. This does fit with what she told me though--that the emotional affair started sometime around January 2015. She said they started talking sexually around April 2015 and had a physical affair during October and November 2015. Then she supposedly ended the physical part after november because he was wanting them both to get divorced from their spouses and be together. She said this scared her so she stopped the sex and started working on her marriage in December 2015 until D-day on February 27, 2016. They were still texting heavily and talking on the phone and working together during this time, and he did end up leaving his wife. But I find it very hard to believe that they haven't had sex since the end of last November.

When I exposed to her job, her boss and the owner didn't seem to be concerned very much about it. OM was off that day but they called him in to meet with them both to ask if they would be able to work together without problems. Her boss and the owner both had affairs before, so I guess that's why they weren't concerned as much as I thought they would be. It's also a laid back job. But since OM ended up quitting right after exposure, I guess that stopped the job from worrying too much about it.
WW was very angry about the job exposure and claimed I did it to try and get her fired. She was also embarrassed because OM's wife also exposed to the entire office and made a big scene. So all 15 or so coworkers know about it.
Her best work friend is a female and also seems to be an enabler. I haven't been able to get much help from her. Me and WW have been hanging out with her work friend and her husband recently, and have plans to hang out more. So I may be able to become friendlier with her and add her as an ally, maybe. Or if not an ally, maybe she will at least see I'm not as bad as WW complained about for so long and will give WW better and more fair advice in the future.

Is OM still married? Have you informed his BW they are still in contact?

I informed OM's wife about a month ago. OM had already left her a couple months before that though. I asked WW if OM left his wife to be with her. She said she doesn't know, but that she thinks she gave him the courage to leave his wife. I'm not sure how true that is though.
I found an em

I informed OM's wife about a month ago. OM had already left her a couple months before that though. I asked WW if OM left his wife to be with her. She said she doesn't know, but that she thinks she gave him the courage to leave his wife. I'm not sure how true that is though.
I found an email between OM and his therapist that he forwarded to my wife when he left his wife back in December. It showed how much of a liar he is. The therapist wrote an email complaining to him that he isn't making progress in marriage counseling and accusing him of having an affair. He responded with an angry email to the therapist saying how bad his wife is and complaining to the therapist for accusing him of having an affair. You would think WW would have seen that and realized how easy it is for him to lie.

Last night I was laying in bed playing on my phone while WW watched tv. Right before going to sleep, I turned my phone off and laid it on my chest and was just staring at the ceiling thinking for a minute. WW turned the tv off and rolled over to go to sleep. When she saw me she asked what was wrong.

...and? Why have you posted this?

You need to mention it everyday. Short and sweet: "Your affair hurts me terribly. I need it to stop." Don't fear her reaction.

Not sure why that post cut off like that. But when we were in bed and she asked what was wrong, I just said "you really need to stop." Then we turned off the lamp and laid down. After about a minute she said, "I haven't talked to him."
I didn't respond and we fell asleep.

I coukdnt really find a good time to mention the affair yesterday, so I took that opportunity of her asking what was wrong. The past few times I told her to stop, she either got mad or said she wasn't discussing it. But this time it was just the response that she hasn't talked to him. I have no proof that she has talked to him, but I think it's obvious since she isn't showing any withdrawal.

Prisca,

I read some of your first posts on MB, but I was wondering how the fog was for you? Were you kind of like my wife says she feels, as in thinking you would never be in love with your husband ever again?

How long did it take the fog to lift once he started Plan A? Were you still having the EA while he was in Plan A? Did you fluctuate some days between wanting to leave and wanting to stay?

Yes, I hated him. I only stayed because 1: I relied on his paycheck, and 2: the kids.

This is a typical feeling in WW. She DOESN'T love you -- your account in her lovebank is empty. You can refill that account, but she doesn't know that. Her emotions tell her that you never will be able to. But her emotions do not determine recovery.

No. He found out after it ended.
You will find that her fog will dissipate not too long after she ends contact with him. Continued contact is what keeps her foggy. This is a big reason why you need to bring this up every day -- recovery canNOT start until she ends contact.

You don't need to look for opportunities to slip it into the conversation. Be bold. Bring it up out of nowhere. Fix her a cup of her favorite coffee, and after you hand it to her say "Your affair hurts me terribly. I need you to end contact." Bring her flowers and say "I love you, but your affair is devastating to me. I need you to end your affair." (These are just examples -- tailor these to things your wife enjoys).

Be sure when you do bring it up that you mention the affect the affair is having on you. Don't be a drama queen about it, but use the examples that have been given. Be short and to the point, and then move on. It is THE problem in your marriage right now that is going to end your marriage unless it is resolved, so keep it on the front burner. Bring it up daily.

Thanks for the examples. That makes a lot more sense.

Last night and tonight she has been friendly, but still very distant and unaffectionate. For some reason I feel better when she is being mean and grouchy, because I imagine she is conflicted in her feelings. But when she is calm and somewhat friendly like she is now, it scares me and I think she may just be settling in to the routine of me meeting her practical needs while OM meets her romantic and emotional needs. Its almost like she is "friendzoning me" because I have been being so nice. I wish I coukd stop worrying about her behavior, but I'm scared to death.

Are you on ADs?

Ok. At bedtime again tonight I saw the phone bill and saw she called OM earlier tonight. I asked her if she talked to him today and she said no. I took the example and said, "look, I love you more than anything, but you have to stop talking to him because it is killing me and preventing our recovery."
She flew into a rage like I haven't seen in a couple weeks. I ignored it but she got I'm my face yelling and asking why was I just laying there. I repeated that I just wanted her to stop the affair.
She went into a speech saying how the past few days she told him we were getting along very good and she wanted to work on our marriage more. She also told me she realizes she doesn't want him but that because I keep telling her to quit talking to him that I am being controlling and she doesn't want that either. She said she has to spend more time with me being nice like i have been (plan A) and then she will stop talking to him in her own way. I said, "whenever i tell you everyday to cut contact, why dont you tell me you are trying?"
She cussed at me some more and said she hated to look at me. So I got up and went in the other bedroom to go to sleep. 5 minutes later, she sent me a screen shot where she had just messaged OM on Instagram and told him she has to quit talking to him because it causes a fight every time. She told him that they both ruined their lives and have to just live with it and never speak again.
Then she messaged me again and said "I stopped. You happy now? F$!k you.".
I don't know what to think about this. Her message to him stopping contact basically says she doesn't want to stop talking to him except I am making her. This will be about the 4th time she has cut contact in this way. It usually lasts a day or two and she stays angry at me the whole time until she finally calls him and we start all over.

Just keep DEMANDING that she end her affair. Don't let her bully you into submission. The banshee act is to get you to back off and stop interfering in her affair.

Should I call or text her this morning and tell her she needs to tell OM it's over properly? Because the way she told him basically says she doesn't want to stop but it causes me and her to fight so she is stopping for that reason. It's not really much closure for either of them.
Or should I just leave it alone and keep demanding she end it?

You do know what to think about this because we have told you several times. She is trying to manipulate you into letting her continue her affair without interference by telling you that YOU are causing her to continue contact.

Obviously any rational person knows that is hogwash. She is continuing her affair because she is addicted to the OM. She would continue to do it regardless of what you said, until she is ready to stop it. You just make it more uncomfortable and difficult when you continue to bring it up. That is the point, to put pressure on the affair, so keep it up.

I believe I told you several times that this will be your future if you don't move away. Your wife is severely addicted to the OM. Are you prepared to live like this?

We talked about moving last night because we passed OM on the road the other day. Well, she shouted "he is always going to be around. What are we supposed to do, move?"
I said yes we are going to have to move. She didn't respond.

She messes with my head so bad because up until last night, every time I mentioned stopping the affair she would get mad and say she doesn't want to or its not worth it to be in a bad marriage. But last night for the first time she said she doesn't want to be with him and is trying to stop contact but doesn't want to live the rest of her life with me constantly accusing her of talking to him. She also said she told him we have been getting along really good lately.
I trust the guidance on this forum, but it makes me worry because she plants that little seed of doubt and scares me.

Can you not see the logic in moving? You accuse her of talking to him BECAUSE SHE IS TALKING TO HIM and she can't stop talking to him because she is addicted and the source of her addiction is right there. She can't ever get over her addiction because she is triggered every day by his presence.


What worries you specifically?

What is the plan?

Yes, what little seed is she planting? Is she convincing you that the best course of action, what is best for your marriage, is for her to continue her affair? Of course that is silly. You are a rational man, you know that there is no way your marriage will survive with her continuing an affair.

What can she possibly scare you with? That she is going to end your marriage? She is currently having an affair, THAT is going to end your marriage. There is no 'scare' in that, it is fact. A marriage cannot survive with a third party involved. So there is nothing for her to scare you with. You are taking steps to end the affair, that really is the only option if you want to save your marriage.

Yes I am on an AD. I was on one before D-day but felt it wasn't working anymore. After D-day my doctor switched the AD and it has helped tremendously.

She causes me to doubt because she says she is working on ending it herself and me bringing it up causes us to fight and for her to not want to be around me. I know it sounds illogical, but there is still the little voice in my head saying what if she is right. Plus, it is misreable getting yelled at and put down and not fighting back, especially when I am the one that is in the right. Also, she said she called OM yesterday because she heard through second hand info that I called OM's boss yesterday (sheriffs office) and told him of the affair. I didn't do this and have no idea who it was. My only guess is that OM made it up so that the info would make its way to WW and cause us to fight, since they have been communicating less and less. She accused me of lying about it. She said she doesn't care if I did it, she says she is just mad that I am lying about it. I told her OM must have made it up, but of course she thinks that is not even a possibility. I did expose to his job about a month ago, but they were both already aware of this. This new exposure has to be a lie.
I want to talk to her this morning and tell her to end contact again to see what she says, but when we went to bed last night she was yelling and cussing and I feel like I should be quiet for a while today until I have a little more time to "plan a" her back into a good mood. Then I will demand it again tonight.

As far as plans on moving, I have applied to a bunch of jobs in an area about an hour from here. I guess that woukd be far enough to keep from accidentally bumping into OM, but it's also within a reasonable driving distance for both of them. I also found a couple transfer opportunities with my current job that are in different states. I've been researching the quality of schools around the area.

You are being silly and need to start employing some logic. Phrases like "working on ending it" are weasel words employed by an addict. It only means she is still in her affair and wants to shut you up. Stop allowing yourself to be manipulated. We have told you she is addicted so you can expect her to do everything in her power to get you off her back so she can continue her affair.

If you were my son, this is what I would do to you:

Refresh my memory, have you told your mother about this?

If your wife were serious about ending it, SHE WOULD END IT!!

Stop fearing your wife's anger. Stop waiting till she's in a good mood. Stop letting her control you, and just do what needs to be done.

Your marriage can survive her anger. It will not survive her continued contact.

Drive her mad on the issue, man. Be a broken record. Annoy the heck out of her by refusing to let it go. Don't back off just because she throws a hissy fit.

yup!!

Ok. I know. It just helps to have y'all snap me back into reality occassionally.
I'm definitely making a little progress I think, since her arguments have changed from "he's my best friend and I don't want to stop and I am going to the lawyer tomorrow" to "I don't want to be with him and I am going to end it my own way and you just need to quit aggravating me about it." So at least the threats of divorce have stopped.

I put a voice recorder in her car and a GPS tracker early this morning before she woke up. So I will check that this evening. I can also access the phone records to see who she is calling/texting. That's the extent of my snooping. I can no longer open her social media accounts. But I did notice that since she said she told him she can't talk anymore last night, OM's profile on instagram still says WW is following him. I was thinking of texting her a screen shot of that and asking why she is still following him.
Is that a bad idea or should I just be vague and tell her she needs to block him on all her social media?

And yes, I did expose to my mother and his mother. I have exposed to everyone I could think of.

She is going to need to get rid of social media altogether.

Ok

Please follow Prisca's suggestion and strenuously ask her to eliminate all social media. Send the screen shot of IG and tell her this means her affair is still active. She must cut off ALL contact with her OM.

Can your mother help you navigate your wife's manipulations? You seem very ill equipped to deal with manipulators. Can your mother help you?

I could try to ask my mom for advice, but she is very similar to me and is naive to bad behavior. She is also very old fashioned and fairly simple minded. But maybe she will have some wisdom in her old age.

Of all the friends and family I have exposed to, I haven't found anyone that gives the kind of advice I get on this forum. Everyone I speak to in person either says to divorce her, or just stay with her and never mention the affair again.

I have been following all the advice from this forum though, and I've definitely noticed a positive change. I can tell WW is confused and torn, because she expects me to have my normal reactions and fight with her. But I've been the perfect husband 99% of the time and it is moving her closer to wanting to reconcile I think.

Stick around here and listen to MB radio and you won't be naive to bad behavior.

Translation:

"I am figuring out how to hide it better from you so you won't know about it."

I just started listening to the radio show last week and it's already helping. I can't figure out how to listen to the archives though.

That's what I figured Mr Eureka.

In order to listen to the archives you pay about $50 per year. Best money we ever spent. The cost is less than one counseling session to hear the MB principles applied to real life marital situations. It is very helpful to listen by topic.

Suppose eventually she says she ended the affair and I keep snooping and don't see any contact. How do I know that she didn't just find another way to stay in contact?
Before I found MB, one of the other message boards I was on had a few people tell me it took 5 or 6 months AFTER the affair ended for their spouses to actually show remorse and a real willingness to reconcile.
I hear everyone say she has to stop all social media and read and follow Dr. Harley's books, but everytime I mention any of that stuff right now she wants nothing to do with any of that. From what I can tell, even when she ends the affair for good it may be a while before she agrees to do any of that stuff.
Does that sound about right?
It sounds like I should keep bugging her about ending the affair and once she finally does, keep snooping for a long time to make sure it's real. So at that point, do I stay in Plan A until she shows real remorse and a willingness to change? Or would I move to Plan B even if she ends the A but doesn't seem fully committed to reconciling?
I am wondering all this because I just read the thread about False Recovery and I am worried about that now. I guess once we move though, a false recovery would be less likely.

You have to continually snoop.


Don't expect her to show any remorse for years, if at all. Women don't typically show remorse and it isn't necessary for recovery.


Just let her know that will be a deal breaker if she doesn't do that. If she doesn't get on board with recovery, you should plan to go into Plan B after a few months.

I showed her this evening how my instagram account shows she is still following OM. She said it was a mistake and she logged in with me watching, and showed that he is not one of her followers and how he actually is blocked. But she admitted that somehow he is still able to send her messages. She showed me the message he sent earlier saying how he hates her and she means nothing to him now, and all this stuff. Then like usual, she got very angry and started cursing and said how I am never going to trust her and life is going to be like this forever with me.
I responded with "then show me how to trust you." She said, "I'm not going to beg you to trust me. That's what you want me to do." I said, "I don't want you to beg. I just want you to never talk to OM again. That's all you have to do." She yelled, "I don't know why we have to talk about this everyday. I don't even want to look at you or be around you."
Then I went to lay down in the other bedroom. The kids came with me because they were afraid of her yelling.

While laying in here in the other bedroom, I'm thinking of texting her on the other side of the house to say she needs to get off instagram and other social media if he can still message her while blocked. I don't know if I should do that or just let her cool down or go tell her in person. I assume it will make me less attractive if I keep the argument going though.

Why are either of you still on Instagram? You need to get rid of social media.

Don't argue with her, but demand that she delete her instagram account. It is a simple fix if she is serious.

When the conversation stops being productive, end it. Dont re-start an argument. Also, avoid discussions late at night. They are generally unproductive, discouraging and exhausting.

Also, have you done anything fun in the past few days? You need to be offering a better alternative to the OM.

We have been doing fun stuff together, but not as much as I want. I have been doing as much as she will allow. We went to the movies a few times and I joined her martial arts class with her, we have fun doing that together.

She ended up coming back in the room where I was and started fighting with me. I didn't fight back, but I did say she needs to have no contact with OM so we can eventually start recovery. Finally, she texted him the pre-written letter I had given her that says basically "I want to work on my marriage. I will no longer respond to any emails or texts or phone calls." Once she sent that letter, she went from angry and yelling to down right crazy. She was standing up by the door shaking and crying. Then she ran in the bathroom and started puking. She repeated the stuff about hating me and being miserable that she ruined her life and has to live with me not trusting her for the rest of her life.
I calmly told her that all she has to do is have zero contact with OM and just simply tolerate me while getting over the affair so we can start to rebuild after that is passed. She yelled at me to shut up and we both went to bed.

When I said she needs to get off social media, she responded by saying I am taking her life away and she will never be happy. I do feel a little conflicted about that, because she can't be on social media if he can message her, but she is also a photographer and gets lots of enjoyment from putting pictures on social media.

But at least she seems to have finally went no contact for real now, if she can maintain it. Also, OM is finally being mean and hateful to her and isn't perfect like she used to maintain. But it worries me that if they are fighting, once he finds a way to sneak a message through and apologizes for being mean, they will make up and the affair will be back in effect and stronger than before.

We were supposed to go have fun today by going to the lake with her friend and her husband, but I'm not sure if she will still go after being so upset last night. Not sure if she will feel like it either, if she is really in withdrawal now.

Dont' agree to any "enjoyment" that is harmful to your marriage. She has already shown she should not be on social media. Don't cut corners, because you will just cut your chances of saving your marriage.

In the meantime, you should be selling her on the prospect of having a happy, passionate marriage. Tell her that is your goal, but she must first end her affair.

You should also get rid of social media.

Keep being pleasant. If the two you can take a get away trip, that would help a lot. Also change phone numbers and emails. Strongly consider moving.

Thanks for the advice.

Since she told OM it's over and seems to actually be in withdrawal, do I still keep mentioning for her to stop the affair or bringing it up in anyway? Or should I just keep spying and following plan A and telling her my plan for a happy and passionate marriage?

Melody, I see what you mean about not agreeing to any "enjoyment " that is harmful to the marriage. Now I remember hearing Dr. Harley saying the same thing on the radio show.

Also, it will be easy for me to quit social media, I never use it hardly now. Her on the other hand, that is going to be a battle I think.

If she has stopped the affair, then don't keep asking her to stop it.

What you can do now is tell her that you want to create a happy, passionate marriage. Tell her this, "you have said many times you want me to trust you. Let me show you how to build my trust." Then whip out the checklist and talk to her about moving and all the other items on the checklist. Do you have the book Surviving an Affair? Have you shown her the book?

From Surviving an Affair, pg 66-67

The extraordinary precautions do more than end marriage-threatening affairs; they help a couple form the kind of relationship they always wanted.

These recommendations may seem rigid, unnecessarily confining, and even paranoid to those who have not been the victim of infidelity. But people like Sue and Jon, who have suffered unimaginable pain as a result of an affair that spun out of control, can easily see their value. For the inconvenience of following my advice, Sue would have spared herself and Jon the very worst experience of their lives.


Checklist for How Affairs Should End

_____The unfaithful spouse should reveal information about the affair to the betrayed spouse.

_____The unfaithful spouse should make a commitment to the betrayed spouse to never see or talk to the lover OP again.

_____The unfaithful spouse should write a letter to the lover OP ending the relationship and send it with the approval of the betrayed spouse.

_____The unfaithful spouse should take extraordinary precautions to guarantee total separation from the lover OP:

_____Block potential communication with the lover OP (change e-mail address and home and cell phone numbers, and close all social networking accounts; have voice messages and mail monitored by the betrayed spouse).

_____Account for time (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a twenty-four-hour daily schedule with locations and telephone numbers).

_____Account for money (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a complete account of all money spent).

_____Spend leisure time together.

_____Change jobs and relocate if necessary.

_____Avoid overnight separation.

_____Allow technical accountability.

_____ Expose affair to family members, clergy, and/or friends.

I still haven't got the book. It's been on my list but I will definitely get it today or order it.

I doubt she is prepared to make many changes right now, but I'll keep trying until maybe the fog lifts enough and she is willing to try.

We have been getting along ok this morning. She left to go get some stuff at Walmart and called me 30 minutes later and seemed to be in a much better mood. Not sure if this means she contacted OM or not. I am going to check the GPS and voice recorder in her car when she gets home.
If she was telling the truth the past few days about not wanting to be with OM, plus him messaging that he hates her and is done with her, could that make her withdrawal less severe? I'm just wondering because I assume if she isn't sick and laying in the bed all day, that maybe she is lying and isn't in withdrawal. Or can the withdrawal fluctuate daily and her moods constantly change?

Another question I been wondering about: D-day was over 2 months ago and I was miserable and devastated and thought about the affair everyday. But since I have been doing Plan A, I haven't thought about the affair much at all. Could I really be over it already that quick or is it just because my focus has been on saving my marriage, and all that depression and resentment will eventually hit me again? I worry that once we get in recovery for a while and I finally started to relax a little, all of the affair thoughts will hit me and I will do or say something mean to her.

good!


So show her the plan and start planting the seed now. She will never be prepared if you never paint the picture.


Her words mean nothing. Absolutely nothing. You have to pay attention to her actions.


The affair is not over. You are just distracted because you have a plan now. Affair thoughts will continue to plague you unless and until you recover your marriage.

Thanks for the info and the quick response Melody. You have been very helpful.

Dollarbob,

Like you I am on the verge of recovery. When my wife came back home, it was short lived. I went through the steps listed by MelodyLane, yet before I could cut all communication, he seemed to have gotten to her and apologized for his actions. That was all it took. Yet I made a grave mistake. I tried to "force" my views of this program on her through lecturing for an hour or more each time we talked. It wasn't till I stopped myself from trying to force her into it, that she actually started to open up to me. My suggestion would be to back off. Show her, don't tell her! Get yourself on the program and start being the best husband you can be. Believe me, you still need to snoop, but every time you bring up the affair or trust, it withdraws Love Units. I learned this too late. I still have time to make my marriage great and so do you. But don't push her away. Try planting a seed in her head and let it grow. Keep your boundaries though, but there are ways to avoid Judgments and selfish demands. Allow her to have an input in the recovery of your marriage.

Last night she said she cut contact and she was miserable and definitely beginning withdrawal. Today she seemed fine for the most part. I haven't found anything to be concerned about during my snooping, but I am still worried. Is it OK if once per day I ask her if OM tried to contact her, even if she will probably lie about it? Or will that just cause her to pull away more and question her decision, even if that's the only time I mention the affair daily?

Continue to quietly snoop but otherwise, focus on Plan A.

Ok thanks

I'll have to start off slow I think, just casually mentioning the plan and getting off social media and all that. But how long do I keep up with that before changing tactics? Everytime I mention social media and changing emails, she is going to keep saying I am being controlling and she doesn't want to live like that. Also, what do I do about her work email? I have no way to stop them from using that, that I know of.

Also, if she ends up finding the GPS or voice recorder in her car, does that pretty much mean we are finished for good?

I suggest you finish reading Surviving an Affair. Normally plan A should be in effect for 3 months for men. 3 weeks for women. Do everything you can to keep from being controlling. I realize that you have to demand no contact... be nice about it. It will help if you quote the book and let her know that YOU are following the program. As stated before. You have to start working on you first.

Plan A is 6 months for men.

Just get the devices in the car. She is unlikely to find them.

The devices have been in the car for about a week or 5 days. The only problem is that instagram is their primary source of communication and she changed her password about a week ago. Do you think if she refuses to quit social media that I can compromise by asking for passwords, at east temporarily?

I was able to get the password to the phone account by putting a keylogger on my own phone and getting her to log in to the account on my phone. But I haven't figured out a non suspicious way to get her do the same with social media.

I expect maybe they will eventually get prepaid cell phones, and I will pick that up on the voice recorder in her car. So far I haven't found any contact though, unless they are using Snapchat or instagram. I just have to find a way to spy on those again.

Many people use the same password for several accounts. Have you tried that password?

NO, don't ever ask her about it. TELL her about it when you have found evidence.

STOP, It is not "controlling" to ask her to commit to extraordinary precautions. Don't "casually" ask her to commit to recovery. Pull out hte checklist and tell her this is what it will take to make me feel safe and is the first step in creating a great marriage. I am asking you to eliminate all social media accounts and give me access to your account... etc, etc..."

I don't think you understand what "controlling" means. SHE IS CONTROLLING YOU by subjecting you to her marriage wrecking behavior. Controlling means to FORCE her to do something. Asking her to stop doing something is not "controlling." Forcing her to DO something is controlling. For example, if you FORCED her to wear a black dress, that would controlling.


It means that spy method is finished and you need to find a better way to spy.

This completely misses the point. The purpose of eliminating social media is to stop contact with the OM. How will knowing the passwords achieve that?

Ok. Good info. Thanks

And Bob, we don't give ONE SINGLE CRAP if she catches you spying. You have a right and a need to know everything she does. It is WRONG to have an affair; it is NOT WRONG to catch her doing it. It is WRONG to hide her activities from you. If she would be open and transparent, you would not have a need to spy on her. No spouse has the right to the privacy to destroy her spouse behind his back.

If she catches you, then tell her "I am sorry you put me in that position. Do you think I want a spouse who hides things from me?"

Only a GUILTY spouse would object to her spouse spying on her. Just think about it for a minute. What would you do if you caught her spying on you? Wouldn't you respond by being MORE transparent so she would feel safe?

You are right melody.

Many years before we were married, the roles were reversed and she was wanting to snoop on me because I was lying and hanging out in bars with friends instead of with her. She offered to let me have all her passwords and read through her phone because she said she had nothing to hide. I said no and that couples needed to have some privacy. Now that we are married and she had an affair, it's the opposite. I want to be transparent and she doesnt.

Should I start by giving her all of my passwords and being completely transparent, to eventually coax her into doing the same? Because ever since the affair, she is constantly accusing me of doing something sneaky. She has accused me of talking to random girls, trying to have a relationship with OM's wife, and all kinds of things. I guess this is just to take attention off of her being sneaky.
My only fear with giving her access to my accounts (not including MB or my spy tools), is that if everything falls apart she coukd use that to sabotage me.

Don't do anything like this NOW because she is not safe. She would use them against you and you would lose this place as a resource.

She accuses you of "trying to have a relationship with the OMW" because she does not want you in contact with her. That should tell you that she is worried about that, so you should stay in touch iwth the OMW.

You can listen to the archives with the mobile app. You do this by selecting what you want to listen to ahead of time and building a playlist. The playlist then plays hands-free so you can listen on the go. The playlist is stored on the server, so you can select and change it from any device, including your desktop computer.

It used to be that the only way to listen to archives on your phone was to download the mp3 files on you computer and then sync through iTunes. This latest change is an attempt to improve from that.

This stage is harder than when I was telling her everyday to end the affair. At least then, I could gauge her reaction to me telling her to stop. But now, since she has supposedly stopped, I can't mention the affair and it drives me crazy thinking her and OM are supposedly still talking. Everything is all clear on the GPS and voice recorder in her car, but I can't see what she is doing on Instagram or Snapchat or work email.


Her mood is way more different than it has been since the beginning of the affair. Considering she emailed OM 2 nights ago and stopped all contact, she seems to be way too happy and energetic and friendly with me. She still shows me no affection, but isn't being mean or short tempered or anything. She also hasn't been keeping her phone glued to her hip at all times like before. But it's locked anyway, so I can't access it.
She showed me her and OM'S last few messages the other night where he was mad that she wouldn't divorce me and he told her he hated her and all this stuff. A week before that, she still said he was her best friend. So it seems like she should be depressed over all that and not acting so happy since cutting contact.

Can you check the phone bill records?

Yeah. I can check the phone records and think she is aware. That's why all of their contact has been instagram or Snapchat.

Ok, so get out the checklist and the MB material and tell her what it will take to recover your marriage.

Ask her for full access to her phone. Since she wants to be trusted so badly, this will help you trust her.

Until she proves she is not in contact by giving you passwords to all her accounts, then you can assume the affair is still on.

You are not in recovery until you have complete access to everything.

Show her the checklist. Work down it. Insist that it all must be followed, including giving you access to all her passwords.

Also insist that all social media be done away with (including instagram, facebook, etc).

Thanks Prisca and Melody.
I managed to get her to tell me her bank account password (we share the account but she had split our access when we went to talk to lawyers, and my online account had some kind of problem keeping me from logging in). It took me asking twice and reminding her that we always only had the one online account.
I have only mentioned the social media passwords once, two days ago.

How do I go about telling her to give me passwords or get off social media or both, without her thinking recovery is a mistake and running back to OM? Do I just keep mentioning it like I did with ending the affair?

You keep bringing it up. Show her the checklist and tell her "This is what I need to recover." Repeat it daily. She may blow up. She may contact OM. Don't be scared of her reaction, just calmly keep telling her what it's going to take to reconcile.

And don't forget 20 hours of fun dates each week with no relationship discussion.

It's been 3 days since WW angrily and reluctantly sent the NC letter. I discussed the plan/checklist with her after she sent the letter, but she was still angry and fighting so it didn't do much good yet. We have been getting along very good though since she sent the letter. There has been no fighting or angry outbursts on her part. We have been talking on the phone a good bit while driving, and texting a good bit while at work during the day. But no talk of the affair or relationship. She still doesn't respond when I say "I love you" and she doesn't return my physical affection. It's hard because there is still very little transparency, so I don't know if my efforts are depositing any love units.

I haven't seen any evidence of contact between her and OM, but she doesn't seem to be having any withdrawal at all. From the messages I intercepted in the week or so before she sent the NC letter, it looked like their relationship had been dying down. So I'm guessing maybe that's the reason for lack of withdrawal symptoms. Either that or she is still in contact. She still uses social media, so I can't tell if they are still chatting on Instagram while she is at work everyday. I'm working on trying to get her to give me the passwords. She has a strong addiction to social media, that started years before the affair. So I think it will be a while before she will even consider giving that up.

I bought "His needs, Her needs" and I started reading it yesterday. I have "Surviving and Affair" coming in the mail.

Question:
While I'm still doing Plan A to get her to start recovery, how do I keep from looking foolish while basically waiting on her hand and foot? She basically comes home from work and relaxes while I take care of the kids and cook and clean. Or is that how it's supposed to be? I assume if this keeps up, she will eventually start treating me like a waiter and asking me to do more and more.

Keep making love bank deposits. When your balance in her love bank exceeds the romantic love threshold, her behavior toward you will shift dramatically. It is a sudden change. It is not gradual. There will be no sign ahead of time that it is coming.

What if she is still secretly communicating with OM? Will I even be able to make deposits?

I am planning on waiting until we both get home from work today and make a few deposits and then ask if I can see her cell phone. I want her to show me her Instagram so I can see the message history. If she refuses, it will start an argument but I will also know she is hiding something.
Is this a bad idea, as long as I don't argue if she says I am invading her privacy or something like that?

It's just aggravating and worrisome, because I have been in Plan A for about a month and definitely made progress, but now that she supposedly started NC, I lost my reason to mention it everyday. Since I started Plan A, everytime I mentioned NC, it gradually progressed from her ignoring it to getting mad and lying saying she did stop contact, to saying I wasn't worth giving up contact with him, to her saying she was trying to stop, to her telling him she had to stop even though she didn't want to, to finally this last time she angrily sent him the NC letter I had typed for her. I assume if she was serious about NC, she would have agreed to send the letter without fighting me about it.

Now, since I still don't have transparency from her, when we are not together I worry all day that she is in contact with OM. And I'm afraid to tell her this in case she really hasn't spoken to him since sending the NC letter, I will be making her angry and withdrawing a lot of love units. I also think it would be better to get her passwords without her knowledge, so I can see if she is lying.

First, you need to stop being afraid of her and what she's doing.

If you don't have transparency, you can assume she's still in contact. Bring this up everyday -- it's part of the checklist we told you to show her. Bring it up everyday. Insist that you need transparency in order to recover.

Keep snooping, but also keep on insisting she follow the checklist.

I talked to her about the emotional needs quiz in "His Needs, Her Needs" last night and asked if she would follow that with me. She said she would.

This morning though, I checked the voice recorder and GPS in her car. Her and OM had a nice long conversation on her phone on the way to work. They were talking about how he has to go to counseling now since he is depressed over losing WW. Then they just talked about some random stuff.

I want to confront her right now, but I don't want her to get suspicious and start digging around her car looking for the recorder and GPS. And it will also keep her from giving any new info on the recorder this morning. So I guess I will wait until she gets home this evening before I say anything. Going to be a long day.

When was the last time you spoke to his wife?

About a week i think. She said they are still seperated and getting divorced. She said neither of them want eachother back.

I don't like talking to her though, because she gets really crazy and scares me. I don't trust her. I get the feeling she would try to hurt my kids to get revenge on my wife.

When I was listening to the recorder, it sounds like she must have finally gotten another secret cellphone. I heard her tell him to hold on while she called me to say she was running late, and I could hear them still talking while the phone was ringing to call me. Also, there is nothing on the phone showing her calling anyone but me. Unless she has some kind of app where she can talk to him and call me at the same time. I could tell they were on speaker phone and some kind of screen chat where they could see eachother. So I'm thinking if it was a secret cellphone, there woukd be no reason to use speaker phone and screen chat. I'm leaning toward FaceTime or Skype or something. I have more to listen to, but I can't listen straight through since I'm at work.

I listened to some more. It appears it is an app. I heard her call him and he asked what was she doing. She said "I downloaded the app again to see if you messaged me."

I called just now and said "I love you but you are killing me." She asked what was I talking about. I said "you didn't talk to anyone yesterday?". She hung up on me and texted a few minutes later to ask what kind of spy program do I have on her phone?

I'm not texting her back though. She will probably start thinking and eventually go look in her car.

Just tell her that you are "having her watched" and you know what is going on.

Now she is texting all the typical things like "tell me what you have on my phone right now or we aren't working on things anymore", "I was going to tell you I talked to him but I didn't want us to fight", "I only talked for a minute but it wasn't bad."

Should I keep ignoring it or say something back?

I hope that you are working very hard at getting out of that town because you see how it will be living there.

Remind me, did you expose to the OM's parents?

"I am having you watched and won't reveal my sources. I am asking you to end your affair so we can work on things. You are hurting me terribly."

"we can never work on things until you end your affair and stop all contact with OM."

She just called and was wanting to know how I knew she talked to him again. I didn't tell her anything. Then she blamed it all on me and said she isn't living like this anymore. She lied some more and said she only talked to him a minute before she got home, but I know it was the entire 30 minute drive to work and the 30 minute drive home.
I didn't argue on anything. She said something about us working on our marriage the past few days, I just responded that I was the only one working on things if she was in contact with him. She said I will never trust her and that we need to call it quits because that is best for everyone. Then she hung up and immediately started texting pretty much the same stuff about me being a liar and never trusting her.

just be a broken record:

"we can never work on things until you end your affair and stop all contact with OM."

"I can't even begin to trust you until you end your affair and stop all contact with the OM."

Did you expose to the OM's parents?

Do you have a VAR where you can listen in the moment? What type is it?

Yes I exposed to OM's mom. His dad is dead.

I just have a cheap smart phone with an auto recorder and GPS tracker on it. I have to take it out and charge it every night and transfer the files to my phone for inspection.

I'm still waiting to get a chance to install it permanently to the car's wiring and set it up where I can listen in live.

I coukdnt find a VAR anywhere. To order one I will have to get a PO Box to mail it to so WW doesn't see it

It looks like they had only been talking about once every 5 days or so recently. I guess that's why she hadn't been in withdrawal after sending the NC letter Saturday evening, since she knew she woukd talk to him again and was already used to long stretches without talking.

I've been ignoring her texts for the past few hours. Eventually I noticed her tone changed and she finally called and was talking about getting furniture for us this evening and acting like nothing ever happened this morning. When we got off the phone she told me to stop being mean. So I texted her saying "I need you to show me it is safe to trust you and that I won't keep getting hurt. And there has to be no contact between you and OM for the rest of our lives. If you can do that, I swear you will have a happy and loving marriage." She said "ok".

Also, I noticed from the recordings that it was WW that broke contact first. OM seems to have been respecting the NC letter.

This is the perfect time to ask for full transparency, and to insist that social media must be done away with. It's the perfect time to bring up the checklist again.

yup!!

Sounds like a plan. Thanks

I'm also wondering, if she keeps getting caught and the only penalty is me constantly telling her to end the affair, what stops her from eventually figuring that out and just settling with that? Like today, I caught her and told her it hurt me and that she has to stop and be transparent, but now I am back to treating hear nicely and acting like I'm not bothered.
My instinct tells me to mope around and show her how miserable I really feel inside.

Oh, that would be sexy. What woman wouldn't want to get a piece of that?

The OM isn't moping around. You don't want to make him more attractive than you by comparison. The point of Plan A is to show her how good it could be for her if she were to come back to you.

Your wording here concerns me. Penalty? Do you see yourself being in a position that can dole out punishment to her? You marriage will not survive that kind of attitude, even if she were to come back.

What is important is what YOU will settle for. If she doesn't end her affair, you should plan to separate. Six months is a good length of time for Plan A. But you need to be planning to move.

She kept me up until midnight asking to see my phone and trying to figure out how I was able to spy on her. I kept repeating the same thing about stopping the affair because it's causing me pain. She ended up texting OM right in front of me to tell him I was spying on them and she kept saying she doesn't care if I spy and will just start contacting him openly. She also said I can shove that "Surviving an Affair" checklist up my @$$. She also said I am a liar and shady for hiding the tracking apps on my phone. She said that we cant get past the affair and rebuild because I keep tracking her and keeping myself from getting over it. Finally after 2 hours of following me around the house and waking me up in the spare bed to yell and put me down, she sent OM another NC letter and laid by me and held my hand and went to sleep. I asked her how long was the no contact going to last this time,she said forever. I won't be holding my breath though.

I am trying today to follow through with Plan A, but it's going to take a few days to recover after that mental abuse last night. She thinks she has it figured out how I am tracking her and believes I am actually tracking OM's phone instead of hers. I want to tell her I heard their entire conversation, because she thinks I was only able to see that she called OM and wasn't able to hear. I don't want her to figure out the recorder in her car, but I also want her to know I heard everything so she will be worried I am listening the next time she tries to speak to him.

Also, I took the tracking equipment out of her car until a few days from now in case she figures it out and starts searching her car.

Never reveal how you know.

Be careful to never say anything that will give her clues to her guess how you are getting info.

Keep bringing up transparency and the checklist. Annoy the heck out of her by bringing it up.

Ok. She's been ok so far this morning. She told me OM tried to send her a message and that she didn't respond and deleted the app. But she is usually ok for the first few days of NC. So I'll see what she does Monday or Tuesday when he tries to contact her another way.

Perfect time to bring up transparency and the checklist.

Also, this might be a good day to go buy her a new phone with a new number. And close out the old phone.

Good ideas Prisca and Apples. Thanks.

Things have been going the same until last night. She had still been ignoring my "I love you's" and not reacting or returning my physical affection, like putting my arm around her or rubbing her shoulders.
Until she made a huge improvement last night. We went to a wedding with all the people she works with. On the way to the wedding I noticed she called me "baby" once or twice. Once we made it to the wedding, she started acting like her old self and started holding my hand and telling me she loved me and kissing me and wanting to take pictures with me all night. It could have been just as show in front of her coworkers, but it continued on the way home and all the way until we went to sleep.

I guess I will see if it continues, and keep doing plan A. Hopefully it lasts, since it makes plan A much easier to follow through with. But I don't want to get excited just to be crushed again in a few days.

Expect to get crushed in a few days. Her feelings will fluctuate. She may even test you. Be steady like you have with your plan A and keep giving her positive, simple statements of your plans for a better future. She will go through times where she questions herself for allowing you back in. You will be waiting for the other shoe to drop for a while. This is where your snooping can bring comfort. Blind trust cannot ever provide that same type of peace of mind or direction.

Thanks. That's exactly what I'm expecting to happen. Usually she is good on the weekends, and then when we seperate to go to work during the week she eventually tries to contact OM. Last week she made it all the way until Wednesday before she contacted him. I heard her on the voice recorder tell him she re-installed the Tango app to see if he had messaged her. And since he did, she called him and they talked about random stuff for about 30 minutes.

Since I confronted her and she went No Contact again Thursday night, I haven't seen any evidence of her contacting him, but I saw he keeps trying to text her occasionally on the phone account. But she has his number blocked so she doesn't see the messages.

Are you filling in the gaps to stay connected during the day? Keep her mind on you with playful positivity. Ask her out, make plans, etc. Text her midmorning, invite her for lunch, or at least call. Throw affection and admiration her way as a daily habit which continues always.

Yeah, we pretty much text all through the day at work. She rarely has anything to do at work, so that is a big temptation for her I am sure. Idle hands are the devil's playground, as they say. On the good days where we are getting along good, she calls me on the way to work and on the way home and talks the whole way. We go to her martial arts class together twice per week, that's about our only recreation together during the week. We've been spending all of our time together though, besides work.

Oh, I've been getting her to send me a pic everyday while at work to show me how she looks and I've been telling her she looks pretty.

A couple questions I thought of:
1) From the communications I've intercepted the last couple times, OM is depressed and going to counseling and trying to make WW feel sorry for him. She tried to make him feel better by reminding him that he has a new job that he enjoys and that he will feel better once his divorce is finalized. Is that a typical tactic by OP's? It worked good for him right after D-day when they were still working together. He moped around and made her feel so guilty that she pushed me away to go comfort him. If I'm doing plan A flawlessly while he is playing the guilt game, is that good?

2) At the wedding last night, WW was very affectionate and told me she loved me many times. It was just like a pre-affair day. Already today she is a little less talkative, mildly depressed and not responding when I say I love her. Is it likely that she may have contacted OM today, or is it just typical fluctuations from the fog, or am I analyzing it too much and is there no way to tell?

3) I have a little journal app on my phone that I started writing my thoughts down in on my phone as a form of therapy. WW knows this is what I use it for since she has seen parts of it before. Occassionally I will be writing in it and she will ask me what I am doing on my phone and I will say "writing in my journal". Is it bad for her to see me writing in that while I'm on plan A? If she sees me doing it, then she knows I am worrying about the affair and marriage.

4) I was WW's first and only sexual partner before the affair. She told me of a couple things her and OM did that me and her have never done and I didn't think she would ever be able to do. If we manage to rebuild this marriage perfectly, is it possible me and her will ever do any of those things, or is that just something I will be expected to live with? Because I don't know if I can unless we experience that together too.

Bob,

My thoughts regarding:

#1 You have no control over how the OM may try to manipulate your WW by moping or soliciting her comfort. If you are implementing an excellent Plan A, then just trust in that, and don't be so distracted on what he might be doing.

#2 As Didn'tQuit said, expect fluctuations in her behavior to you and her emotions, but don't allow those to cause you to fluctuate as well. Stay even-keeled in your Plan A. Do monitor her possible contact with OM, and if you find evidence of current contact then confront based on that. She needs to know that No Contact is a condition of your willingness to work on recovery of your M.

#4 No one else but you and your WW would be able to answer this for you. Hopefully, if you two do reach and achieve recovery of your M (and you're not that close to this yet) you two will be building a new history and a closer relationship, which will make this question obsolete.

Best of luck,
Tom

This has happened to many BH's before you. WW refused to do certain things for them during the marriage. Yet did them with the OM.

Only to end the affair and refuse to do them with the BH after the affair.

So only you can say I did without before and was happy so I can do without after the affair and be happy. If you cannot then????

Comes down to which you want more, to recover your marriage or get what the OM got.

Maybe with time but do not hold your breath.

The policy of joint agreement would apply to all areas of your marriage, which is never do anything without the enthusiastic agreement of your spouse. I sure wouldn't use that logic with her [you did it with the OM therefore you should do it with me] unless you want to trigger her feelings about the OM and can't imagine why you would want to do that.

Keep in mind, that when in an affair, the spouse is high on the fumes of fog and is doing something completely out of character.

Moping and guilting is not attractive.

As I've said before, as long as you don't have transparency with her, assume they are in contact. There's no need to try to analyze her mood -- just assume she is. And keep bringing up the need for transparency. and annoy the heck out of her by bringing up the check list.

Don't journal. It's a good way to feed your lovebusters.


If you think you can't live without whatever she did with the OM, then you might as well file for divorce now. Chances are she'll never do it with you. OR, she will, but only because she feels coerced by you to do it. There are many, many reasons why she may not want to do it with you (it will remind her of the affair, the OM may have coerced her and she did it to keep him, she feels ashamed, she's disgusted by it, etc), and if you demand that she must do it with you to keep you it will only be detrimental to your marriage.

It's so frustrating that Saturday evening was so perfect and yesterday and today she is back to not responding when I say I love her or show physical affection.

My spying is very limited since we still don't have transparency. She has changed all her passwords but I managed to hear her talking about certain apps on the voice recorder, so she believes I can see anything she does on her phone since I catch her everytime she switches to a different app.

We usually text throughout the day since neither of us can really talk while at work. Is it OK if I just text the checklist to her once per day and say something like "I just wanted to remind you about the checklist and let you know that once we complete this we can start to have a relationship better than either of us could have ever imagined."

It's hard to find an opportunity to bring up the checklist and transparency. I feel like if I bring it up today it will just annoy her and make me less attractive. It's like it's easier to mention our marriage when we are getting along good. We had that peak Saturday night and it's been headed downward all the way to today. So it seems like I will be aggravating her if I mention the checklist now, before I have a day or two to try to deposit some love units.

Pick a time when there is NOT an opportunity, and bring it up during that time.

Also, we know she is going to be annoyed. You have to do it anyway even though it is annoying.

Did you read where my wife says to "annoy the heck out of her"? My wife is a woman that I annoyed the heck out of in the process of repairing our marriage, so she knows what she is talking about.

Don't be a wuss who has to wait till the stars align just right and hopes his wife will never be annoyed. Don't be a conflict avoider. Just follow the steps. Bring that check list up EVERY DAY.

Listen, the best thing markos ever said to me was "I am not willing to share you."

Insisting that you need her to end her affair is equal to pursuing her. It tells her you need her and that you want her.

If you do not make noise about her affair, it tells her you don't care.

ANNOY HER ABOUT IT. Make a lot of noise about it. Let her know IT MATTERS, and you're not going to share her.

What you are saying makes sense, but if I keep annoying her, isn't that a love buster and will make her want to leave or make OM look more attractive? I want to keep bugging her about the checklist and transparency, but it seems like it will keep us from ever having a happy conversation.

The goal here is to get her to end her affair, not to avoid conflict. The problem is not lovebusters, but her affair. You need to stay on it.

Did you read my post?
Continuing to bring up transparency and the checklist is showing that you care.

If you don't, if you just sit back and let her go about her affair with NO objection from you, you are then just showing her that she doesn't matter.

Telling her "I need transparency in our marriage. I need us to follow this checklist." Is NOT A LOVEBUSTER. There is nothing disrespectful in those statements. If you blow up at her when she says no, then THAT would be a lovebuster. If you make threats, THAT would be a lovebuster. But simply stating what you need in the marriage is not.

Your marriage can survive her annoyance.

You all make sense and I really appreciate the advice. Everything you've told me so far has worked perfectly.
I just need to make sure I understand and execute properly.

What do I say or do when I bring up transparency and she says "I can't live like that" or "I'm not letting you take my life away."? Won't I seem weak if I say anything other than "well pack your bags and get out"?

Shrug and repeat that this is what you need from her. Then drop the subject and WITHOUT FAIL bring it up again tomorrow.

Does Dr. Harley have a step in the program about not appearing weak?

Is that from the Basic Concepts?

Ok. We were having a great evening and getting along good. I calmly told her I need all her passwords. She flipped out instantly and said she is done and said she already told me from the beginning that she will never live like that. I said for her to show me a better way to rebuild trust. She said she isn't interested in rebuilding trust. She said either I trust her or I don't.

I didn't say anything else and tried to lay down, but she told me to go sleep in the other bed. So here I am. I guess I will see where it goes from here. If it's anything like it was when I kept bringing up NC, she will be in here in 30 minutes to tell me to get back in the bed.

We still haven't talked since last night. I got up to go to work and she was still asleep. Right now is the time of morning when she wakes up and starts getting ready for work.

Should I call her and be nice and act like nothing happened last night, or wait and see if she calls me first? Our last words to eachother was her telling me to sleep in the spare room last night.

You should always act nice, cool, calm and collected.

I'd send her something that sends a message that you need a relationship that is totally transparent. That you cannot live a life where your spouse needs to keep secrets from you. Then tell her you love her and that you hope you and her can live this transparent life together.

She called to ask if I knew where the kids booksack was at and that was it. I called back later to try to make small talk but she was not wanting to talk and was being mean. So I just told her I would talk to her later.

I'll try sending the message Mr.Alias suggested and see where that gets me.

I just sent the message like Mr Alias recommended. She responded that she isn't keeping secrets from me. I told her I'm not accusing her. Then she said she isn't talking about this anymore and for me to bring her IPad home.
I've been having her IPad since she never uses it. She thinks I am using the IPad to spy on her (I was until she changed the passwords, but she thinks I'm still using it). I don't want to bring it home and make her think I am giving up my ability to monitor her. But it is useless to me until I find her new passwords.
Should I just bring the iPad home, or keep the illusion that I can see everything she does on her IPhone with it? She doesn't want to use the Ipad, she just doesn't want me spying on her. All she will do if I bring it home is bring it to her job and lock it up so I can't spy.

Don't sleep in the spare bedroom. You are still married, so sleep in your bed. If she doesn't want to sleep with you, she can move herself to the spare bedroom (don't tell her that, let her figure it out on her own).

I wouldn't respond about the iPad. Don't worry about it right now. Spend the rest of the day sending her pleasant texts, and plan on trying to do something special for her this evening.

Ok prisca. Thanks

Have you installed spyware on her iPad? If you have to give it back then you'll have a way to check on her.

I tried to install spyware on the ipad, but it says I need to jailbreak it and there is no jailbreak for this particular operating system (ios 9.2)

Today she is pretty much acting the same as she did in the weeks before I started plan A. Everytime I try to text or call, she acts bothered and not in a mood to talk. My questions only get a yes or no response. It's depressing because it feels like we erased all the progress we made the past couple weeks.
Should I back off a little today and not contact her so much until her mood improves or until she contacts me first?

She is actually busy at work today, but she is never so busy that she can't talk for a few minutes or answer texts more often.

She commented this morning that she needed some windshield washer fluid in her car. So when I got off work I drove to her job and filled it up for her. She didn't say thanks or anything. She was still acting tired or mad or sad.
Can I ask her what's wrong if I do it in an attempt to be caring or comforting, or just ignore it and keep acting positive and happy and nice?
Another question:
If I don't find any evidence of contact today and she seems to be starting withdrawal, should I try to help her through it by making little comments like "I know it's hard but just stick with it and I promise we will build a great marriage when we get through this", or do I not say anything?

I also received "Surviving an Affair" today. I read the first 5 chapters immediately. It answered a lot of my questions. I would probably read the whole thing tonight, but my wife is about to be home.
Should I try to avoid reading books like that around her? I would love for her to read the first few chapters to show her that her affair is not unique and special. But I don't want her to see the parts about plan A and plan B.

Well, something felt fishy on her way home from work. She said she was stopping at Wal mart so I hurried and drove by there. Sure enough I see her and OM's vehicles. She came home in a quarrelsome mood too.

Should I confront her immediately or wait an hour or two until we both calm down?

I confronted her and she swears she didn't see or talk to OM. She was very convincing. I was certain I saw OM leaving walmart with WW driving right behind him. And on the voice recorder, as she was parking and getting out I heard her laugh and say "you weren't watching where you were going" as she shut the door.

So I could have been wrong. But she got mad and went to stay at her mom's tonight. She repeated the usual, that if we stay married her life will always be like this; constantly being accused. Hopefully I wasn't wrong though. I would hate to destroy all this progress and lose her because I mistakenly accused her.

Bob,

"I would hate to destroy all this progress and lose her because I mistakenly accused her."

Progress Bob? What progress? Because she threw you a few bones last weekend to get you off the scent from her very active affair, and you felt that because you two cuddled for a short while that's progress?? You have to soon realize that she is meeting with her OM and denying it to you because she does not respect you.

Look Bob, it seems to have come to the point way beyond soliciting hour by hour advice here that you need to assert yourself and tell (demand of) your WW at this time that 1) you have evidence of contact and continued affair (including today's observation, 2) that you desire to rebuild your M, but it will take her commitment to do the same and to no further contact with OM as a condition to stay in the M, 3)that she agrees to total transparency regarding contacts, passwords to enable you to monitor her social media contacts, and her whereabouts, and 4) that she willingly sends a no further contact letter (via FedEx) to the OM, this letter approved and sent by you. You have to stop with the constant accusations and state your love for her and your conditions for remaining in this M and leave it at that, besides of course with your doing as good a Plan A as you can. Your WW does not respect you, and she is trying to divert and manipulate you, so you need to listen to advice here and chance your approach.

Tom

I showed her the checklist last night instead of just mentioning it. She said it is ridiculous and that she will never follow it. She said the checklist only works for someone that wants to save their marriage and she does not. She said she is going to show it to everyone at work today and that they will agree with her. She said a couple people at work that had affairs told her they wish they would have gotten divorced because their spouse never trusts them and makes them miserable.

When I demand she stop contact she says she has, until I come up with proof. And when I demand we allow transparency she says no or that I just need to trust her. Then I usually say something like "that is the only way for us to get to the point of recovery and for me to feel safe." I feel like a weak fool unless I say something like "well get your stuff and leave. This cannot work otherwise." I don't know how else to respond.

She texted this morning and said "don't you think you owe me an apology? Don't talk to me until you come to understand that."

I don't know what to say. I thought I saw OM in his truck leaving walmart with her 2 cars behind him. I'm not certain it was him because he has a very common vehicle. And the time frame she was at wal mart didnt leave any room for anything other than a very short contact. I assumed they were meeting to get prepaid cell phones. She showed me the receipt though. So he could have bought it or I could really be mistaken. Every other time I caught her she admitted it, but this time she is adamant. I won't really know until I listen to the recorder for a couple days.

Even if I was mistaken, her reaction to me definitely warrants an apology. She should apologize to the kids for yelling and yanking the blanket off the bed with us in it too.

She also broke no contact last night because she called OM to ask if he was at wal mart, in an attempt to prove to me I was mistaken.

Assume she is in contact, until she gives transparency.

What is your goal? To save your marriage? Or to divorce?

If you want to save your marriage, then continue with Plan A. That means keep bringing up the requirements for recovery (the checklist that we've been hounding you about). At the same time, keep trying to make lovebank deposits and avoid all disrespect and angry outbursts.

If you want to divorce, then go with your instinct and try to "appear" strong by telling her to get out.

She's not going to. Don't ever expect an apology, you likely will never get it.

Just explain that she can earn your trust if she ends her affair and does the things on the checklist.

This will be your life until you move away. How is that coming along?

You keep posting what she says and does as if that might change what you should say or do. It doesn't. We know she's angry. We know she's mean and cruel. Her reaction doesn't change the fact that you need to keep bringing up the checklist and keep making lovebank deposits.

I also find it odd that you seem concerned that bringing up the checklist is a lovebuster, but you also keep mentioning your desire to tell her to pack her bags and leave. You're concerned about a potential lovebuster, but are considering making a seriously huge one. Your emotions and instincts are all over the map. Follow the plan so that your instincts don't flub this up.

She sent me about 20 angry texts this morning saying she is done and going to the lawyer and is never going to live transparently. I just responded with this text and we havent talked or texted since:

I love you very much but I can't share you with someone else. I need you to not have any contact with him for life and to have transparency to help resist the temptation and to help rebuild trust. If you do those 2 things, I can show you that we can build a great marriage that makes both us and the kids happy.

Great text!

Be prepared for her to blow up. Know that it's okay if she does.

The moving is coming along fairly well. I spoke with my boss and can have a job in several different cities pretty much when I'm ready. I will have to start with an apartment it looks like. I want to try to start recovery and make some love bank deposits so she will consider moving with me.

Have you told her yet that you will need to move?

You can't start recovery until the affair ends, though. It is very unlikely she will move with you at first. RAther, you can move, and she can follow you when her affair dies. Moving is the only chance you have or this affair can go on forever.

It will take you a few months to make all this happen, so you need to get moving. GEt your house on the market, contact an attorney to see how you can take the kids, etc.

I only mentioned it once in regards to recovery several weeks ago. She said it was ridiculous.
I've mentioned it casually several times, just saying we need a bigger house.

OM is supposed to be moving soon as well, according to his seperated wife, I just don't know where or if it will be far enough. He is temporarily staying with his mom.

You need to actually DO this. Don't just "casually" mention it, DO IT.

Just so you know, this won't be a solution. Even if he does move, he will keep coming back to visit his mother.

Well the house is entirely in her name, but we closed on it about a week after our marriage. So in our state it is half mine, but I don't think I can sell it without her approval. I think the only way is if I get an apartment or small house.

Good point on him visiting his mother, I didn't think of that.

In regards to transparency, she did remove the password lock on her phone last night while in the middle of yelling and cursing. She said "there, now you can look at my phone whenever you want." I informed her that only provided transparency while the phone was at home. I still can't see what she does online while at work or away from home. She didn't like that very much.

"There, now you can look at my phone whenever you want."

That's a very unusual thing for someone to do if they're not considering a possible future together. You need to keep up your Plan A. That looks like progress to me.

Incidentally, if that's an iPhone, you can plug that up to a computer and get a backup then use software to access deleted text messages.

Yes. Try to come at it from a perspective of you wanting to be reassured through verification. Try not to make it sound like a demand or you telling her what to do. Thank her for allowing phone access and let her know that you feel some comfort from that. Then tell her that you will feel even better when all potential methods of contact are accounted for. Explain that you want to be able to breathe; to put the past behind you, and focus on a better future with her.

Here is the thing, though. The whole point of transparency is to assure you the affair is over. The affair is not over. Keep asking her to end her affair and demonstrate that by giving you access to all her phones, emails, etc.

And the reason she gave you the password to this phone is because she bought a burner phone with OM last night.

Yep.

Exactly what I was thinking Melody and Prisca. I hope it's progress, but probably the burner phone. The voice recorder should pick that up unless they only text.

I listened to the recorder from yesterday. She was telling her girlfriend from work about the whole episode the night before. She told the entire story the exact same she told me. I was suprised that she actually told her about the times she messed up and contacted OM. She could be just repeating the same lie to her friend to get validation for being mean. But I am having doubts about seeing her and OM at wal mart. I may have jumped the gun but I guess I will never be certain.

I heard her tell her friend she doesn't want to live with me driving around to spy on her and that she is only here now because of the kids and I am making her not like me by spying.

Last night we went to exercise together and I executed plan A flawlessly. I got her back to laughing and talking.

I was thinking of sending a text today to say "I'm sorry for accusing you of meeting OM at wal mart. I thought I saw you both but I believe you that you didn't meet him. I am proud that you have been doing good without contacting him, but I still need transparency. Your affair and actions afterwards have caused me the worst pain of my life, and I need your passwords to be able to feel safe and start trusting again and to make this marriage wonderful for both of us."

How does that sound?

No! Never apologize for protecting your marriage. She is the liar here; she will need to prove she is no longer lying before you accept what she says at face value. Further, you have evry right to interfere with her affair. It is your marriage too.

Exposure and snooping are part of PlanA, dont apologize for doing the right thing.

NO!!! Do NOT send that! There was absolutely nothing wrong with you thinking that she had met up with OM. She's not giving you transparency, and as I've been saying all along, you must ASSUME she is in contact until you have evidence otherwise.

Do not apologize for that. Continue to insist on transparency. If she doesn't want you thinking she's meeting OM at Walmart, that's an easy thing for her to fix.

Nothing surprising there. I only stayed with markos because of the kids, too. You have a huge advantage over the OM by simply being the father of her children. There is more logic in her relationship with you because of this than there is with OM. And family commitment is HUGE for most women. Use that to your advantage.

Keep that up!

I want to say something this morning since I heard the recording of her telling everything to her friend. It bothers me a lot hearing that and her thinking she is justified in not being transparent because her friend agrees. Neither of them have ever been cheated on before so they don't know the pain.

I guess I will just repeat the same stuff about needing transparency. But I also feel I should put in a little more time of getting her to laugh and talk more before doing that, since yesterday she was adamant about wanting a divorce. Does that make sense, or should I bring it up again this morning even if it sends her to a lawyer?

Bob,

I understand you wanting to say something because you're hearing what we know to be an improper way to have a great marriage. However, you cannot educate her. Hopefully someday she'll educate herself but until then you're going to have suffer the burden and do the hard work for your M.

Your goal right now is to get her to agree to transparency. You do that by continuing to repeat the same message over and over until she has put in place all of the necessary EPs.

She's in the fog so any attempt to educate her will fall on deaf ears. It will just become an argument. You simply keep stating what you need in order for your relationship to move forward and you keep snooping.

As far as getting her to laugh and talk more before you state your repeated message I don't think it's a prerequisite.

Goal #1a: Calmly state what you need for EPs so that you can someday regain some level of trust.
Goal #1b: Plan A her. Fill her needs. Make her laugh and have fun with her.

How do I catch her if she has a prepaid cellphone that she may keep at work? Her office only has a few employees and they are all allied with her. So they can't help.

Any ideas?

She just resumed her birth control for the first time since d-day. I assumed this was a good sign for me until I got to thinking it could be for OM. Is it OK to ask why she started that, even though it will probably start a fight?

Also, we are going to the beach this evening to spend the weekend (with the kids). Should I still mention the transparency this morning or just focus on having a good plan A this weekend? I want to tell her when she is on her way to work that I still need transparency.

***EDIT***

***EDIT***

They aren't in recovery and he does need to keep bringing up this problem.

Mentioning transparency IS a good Plan A.This is an active affair. You need to keep the problem on the front burner by bringing it up everyday.

No, just keep bringing up the need for transparency and the checklist. Let her know you're not willing to share her. Let her know you can build a great marriage together.

Ok. I sent a message about needing transparency and building a great marriage, same as always. She replied, "I'm not doing anything wrong. I gave you access to my phone. Stop sending me messages like this."
I replied that I need passwords so I can trust again and make sure there is no contact so we can build a great marriage. She replied "I don't have any passwords." I just ignored it and started talking about our trip this evening and we had a regular nice conversation. I assume I did the right thing. I assume I shouldn't keep going back and forth about transparency all at once and cause a fight and lose my chance at plan A on our weekend trip. I will make a few more comments about transparency during the weekend and then hit it hard again when we get back home. Does this sound like a good plan?

You are correct. You shouldn't argue about it with her at all.
If she wants to argue, just shrug and say "This is just what I need in our marriage." And move on to talking about something else.

Yes.

Also, I need some encouragement. I read the thread the other commenter posted (I recognized that the advice about not mentioning the affair was accidental). I saw a lot of similarities in the beginning of the thread. Some parts I seemed to have a better shot and some I seemed worse off.

I feel like I am on the right path, but still have a long way to go to start recovery.

Those of you who have followed this from the beginning, would you say I am winning the battle or just slowly losing?

From what I can tell, it seems like she went from originally wanting to be with OM and divorce me, to realising they can't be together in real life. I think she is still unsure about me, but she realizes her and OM can never have a normal relationship after the exposure and everything. She is just having a hard time letting go and wants to be friends with him.

You're right that you still have a long way to go, but you HAVE come a long way from where you were. You are making progress.

The ultimate decision to give up her drug of choice will have to be hers. What you are doing is showing her that you are the better option. She may choose not to take the better option, but that will all be on her.

You are giving your marriage the best chance it has to recover. And you're doing very well at it, so keep it up.

***EDIT***

***EDIT***

Ever2late, bringing up the affair IS PLAN A.

Please familiarize yourself with Marriage Builders principles, or refrain from posting.

Do not disrupt this thread again.

Thanks Prisca and Ever2late. I did write Dr. and Mrs. Harley a week or two ago and they answered my email on the radio show. I don't remember my exact question right now, but Dr. Harley did say something to the effect of it being a good idea to take a break from mentioning No Contact at that particular time. Since she finally agreed to NC (at least claims to be), I switched to mentioning transparency now. So it seems logical that taking a break from mentioning it would still be a good idea.

Bob, there's a fine distinction between two different scenarios:
1. An active affair situation, where you are trying to convince the wayward spouse to end the affair

and

2. a "No Contact has been established, and I need to Plan A her for awhile to try to convince her to recover with me, BUT the affair is in the PAST" situation.

In #1, you need to bring up the affair every day. It is the number 1 problem in your marriage, and you must not avoid talking about it. This is a big part of Plan A.

In #2, the affair is a thing of the past. This is when the principle of never bringing up mistakes of the past comes in to play. It is here when you must focus on recovery and the problems of the present, and never refer to the affair. You may also "Plan A" during this time, or sometimes it is referred to as "priming the pump." But the affair is no longer the problem in your marriage. You are in "Recovery."

Sometimes posters have trouble seeing the fine distinction here, but it is here.

Has she agreed to transparency?

Just passing through to say, Great post, Prisca. Well put.

I think I understand the distinctiin, but I am a little confused by one thing. Previously I was telling her to stop the affair everyday and she woukd say "no I don't want to" or "we are just friends now". Then she agreed to NC but I caught her a couple times and she started over. Now I haven't caught her in a while and she says she isn't talking to him, so I no longer mention ending the affair. Now all I mention is transparency and the rest of the checklist. But I assume they have some way of communicating while at work.

The last conversation I recorded, it was clear she did cut contact with him and stick with it for the 4 previous days. Those 4 days I assumed she was really in contact because she was not in withdrawal. But it turned out she was telling the truth that time. They had been off and on for several weeks.
I don't understand why she wasn't in withdrawal for those 4 days though. Could it be a delay and withdrawal won't really hit her until the NC sinks in for a few days? Or sometjing else? I'm wondering because everytime she agrees to NC, I keep waiting for the withdrawal so I will know it's for real, but it never comes.
Or does the withdrawal come after transparency when she knows it's done for good?

Yes. Right now, contact is still an option. She gets a high whenever she talks to him, and she can go a few days on that. Then, before withdrawal sets in, she contacts him to get another high.

It's like being a druggie.

DollarBob, please listen to today's marriage builders show. It will play all weekend. I would encourage you to listen daily

I usually listen everyday but didn't today. I will check it out.

It seems like I may be getting a little closer to transparency. I figured out her Facebook password yesterday and it sent her a text alert and locked her account so she had to change the password to log back in. Since she unlocked her phone i was able to sneak and see her note with saved passwords. I managed to find the instagram password and snapchat again.
She still won't agree to transparency, but she doesn't get so angry when she catches me snooping. Of course this could be due to her having a burner phone at work. Even if I do get full transparency, I don't know what to do about that possibility. The only thing I can imagine is to get her to recover and show me his last deleted messages to see if it mentions a burner. Of course they could have talked about it on her work phone.
I wrote her a nice long note yesterday that seemed to draw her closer to me. But she coukd have also been in a good mood from talking to OM after our weekend trip to the beach.

Bob,

I don't see this as being closer to transparency. She isn't volunteering anything. You are having to dig to find it.

Who knows why she isn't getting as angry as before. It's all speculation right now.

Any chance you could step up your snooping game plan? Many people hire PIs to find out what's going on.

I thought about hiring a P.I. but I doubt I can afford it. I have enough snooping in place to know exactly what she is doing at all times except for when she is at work. I expect she either has a burner phone at work or is using a seperate account on her work computer to text.
I need to find a way to get some kind of spyware on her work computer.
She thinks I have something on her cellphone to see everything she does. I heard her tell this to her friend on the voice recorder.

Is it too late to continue exposure at this point? It's been over a month since the exposure, and I just found there is a group of the family that still isn't aware. Will it do any good or possibly cause irreparable damage?
Also, she has a new group of girl friends she has started hanging out with. Do I expose to them too?

I sent her another message about transparency earlier. She called and was complaining and saying she is doing nothing wrong and all that. This time though she was crying and sounded stressed out instead of angry. She said she is done and doesn't love me and can't make herself love me. I kept on with the usual message and repeated that I love her and want to make the marriage great and all that stuff. She hung up on me. We texted once or twice and finally she said "fine" and texted me the passwords. She said "now you can look at whatever you want to. I am done".

Guess I will keep plan A going and see what this leads to next.

Great idea!! Good job.

Bring up the next item on the checklist.

She still has a seperate bank account she started about 3 weeks after D-day that her pay check goes into. I need to get her to close that. She also has 2 credit cards I need to be able to see.

How does this usually work? When a typical WW agrees to transparency, is it angrily and reluctantly like my wife seems to be doing? Or do they usually have sort of an epiphany and agree to full transparency all at once?

I believe that since she gave me the passwords, when I ask her to close the seperate bank account and let me have access to the credit card statements (unless they use the same password and everything else), she is going to say, "it's never going to end with you. I gave you my social media passwords and you keep wanting more. You will never trust me." I would be willing to bet my next 3 paychecks she is going to say something to that effect.

By the way, after she gave me the passwords and said she is done (trying to save the marriage), she eventually calmed down over the next hour and we calmly discussed or plan for the evening chores. She is still acting quiet and upset. It almost seems like withdrawal a little bit. But she definitely doesn't appear to be "done". I think with a few nice comments and some good plan A for the next day or maybe two, she will be back to a good mood.

I was just reading over the checklist. It looks like all we have left to do is account for money and change email addresses and phone numbers and close social media. We already have been spending all leisure time together and avoiding overnight seperation. As far as the 24 hour schedule, we spend all time together except when she is at work. Usually we talk at lunch time and I find out where she is going and with whom. Everything has been verified with the GPS and voice recorder thus far.

I think that will help me when I start asking for her to close social media and account for money. I can remind her that those are the last items on the checklist. Everything else is being followed wether intentionally or not. If she tries to stay somewhere overnight or go do something alone, I can remind her of the checklist and let her know we have done most of it without trying intentionally.

And relocating, I still need her to follow me when I move.

It's interesting that a month or two ago, whenever she would get angry she would say she is getting a divorce. Recently when she gets mad, instead of threatening divorce, she says she wishes I would just let her go. Like I am somehow forcing her to stay with me. She makes the same amount of money as me and has her mom willing to move in and take my place with the bills and chores, so there is nothing holding her back but herself.

Ok, the missing part of the checklist is that she has not ended her affair.

They have to be communicating at work somehow. When I get home today I'm going to try the passwords out that she gave me and see if I can access icloud on her apple desktop and see the last messages he sent.
She told me he sent her a message on Monday, 9 days ago and she said she didn't respond and that was supposedly their last communication. I wanna see what that says and if there are any other messages mentioning a burner phone or anything.

She got mad on that Monday because she told me she got weak and downloaded the app to see if he had messaged her, but she was proud that she told me about it and didn't respond. I told her thanks, but I also said that still counts as communication since she purposefully looked and read his message. I reiterated that we needed zero contact for life. She got mad and barely talked to me for a day after that.

Should I keep pressing for the remainder of the transparency today? She is still upset from giving me the passwords yesterday and probably thinking a relationship with me doesn't seem that attractive. I was going to wait a day or two for us to get back on friendly terms, but maybe I should keep pressing for changing her phone number and email and all that.

I was reading an old post that says exposure is supposed to kill the affair and lift the fog. If it has been a month or more since my exposure and the affair is still going on in secret, does that mean my exposure didn't work, or does it take a little time?

I almost wish I would catch her again. Everytime I have caught her lying, she gets really angry but eventually feels guilty. This part is hard where I am snooping and not finding anything, but I feel something is going on while she is at work. I just have a feeling.

I have 100 questions I want to ask her about her day to try to catch her lying, but that will just push her away if I don't have proof.

If by some small chance she has cut contact, today will make 7 days. Last time she made it 4 days before I caught her again. But the voice recorder confirmed she at least really did attempt it for 4 days.

Sorry, one more question:

Since she gave me the passwords to her social media accounts, should I offer her the same (not marriage builders or anything to do with spying) to keep her from getting resentful? Or should I wait for her to ask?

I spoke to OM's wife for the first time in a few weeks yesterday. It sounds like WW was probably informed of this by OM but WW can't tell me she is aware because then I will know she is still in contact with OM.

Last night WW got really angry at me for starting to cook supper without checking for all the ingredients first. She asked why have I been so distracted. Then she asked to look at my email.

She is acting exactly the same way she did before the supposed "no contact". She even said, "it's not fair that you aware spying on me and I can't see anything about you. You coukd be in cahoots with OM's wife and pretending to reconcile to get info to hurt me. You are the kind of person that would do that."

It's pretty obvious she is still in contact, but since I have no proof I can't accuse her.

She caught me doing a deleted text recovery on her phone early this morning. She got really angry. I explained to her that I needed to be sure and have 100% transparency so I coukd trust her again and so we can make our marriage great. She fought some more with me so I left for work. I was only able to find one message to OM though, and it was from about 2 weeks ago where she told him she couldn't talk anymore and legitimately wanted to work on our marriage.

I can't tell if I am going crazy or what. Through my snooping I keep confirming that WW seems to be telling the truth about no contact. But I can't figure out why she doesn't seem to be in withdrawal. She has a few hours here and there where she seems to be in withdrawal, but then it fades and she is back to normal. Also, it seems like I would find evidence of OM trying to contact her, but he seems to be leaving her alone.

You need to move!!! Take all this energy you use in blogging and get moved out of there. See an attorney about your rights in taking the kids, selling the house, etc and get out of there!

Also, I wouldn't discuss your sources of intel with her, even by fabricating a source (ie the neighbors). You can just tell her you know she saw him and that it hurts you. The less she knows about your sources of information, the more she will think you have eyes everywhere, and that is a good thing.

Do this.

Bob, your problem is that you are trying to "recover" while you stay in the bar. You will never recover that way. She will never withdraw while you are there. Move away. Hopefully she will follow you there. That is your only chance of recovery.

I pretty much have everything set up to be able to move. Just waiting to meet with lawyer this friday to figure out what to do with the kids. If everything goes to plan, I should be ready to leave within 3 weeks.

That is such good news. I think you will find out soon after that, your recovery will take leaps and bounds after you move.

I hope so. I'm not even worried that much if she comes or not. At least I know I am doing the right thing trying to save my family.

Have you talked with her about this? What did she say?

Ive only made little remarks to her here and there about moving. I havent yold her i am serious and very close to actually leaving. I'm planning to "Plan A" her a little while longer until it gets closer to time to leave, and then let her know and let her decide.

One thing I still don't understand. Once I move,if she comes or joins me later, how will I know once withdrawal ends and recovery starts? Right now, the only possible contact they have is on the phone or computer while she is at work. So technically that could continue for a while after we move.
After the withdrawal starts to fade, is she just supposed to come to me with a willingness to work on the marriage? Or will I have to keep trying to get her to make changes a little bit at a time?

That will depend entirely on where she is at and how full her lovebank is. If you have done a good job of filling her lovebank and eliminating lovebusters, you have a good chance she'll want to work on the marriage. If you're still throwing lovebusters around, or her lovebank is still deep in the red, she'll likely be more resistant.

Recovery does not start when withdrawal ends. Recovery starts when she proves that she has ended the affair, and agrees to work on the marriage, using the checklist that you have been given.

So, given that she's already separated from you, she isn't going to move with you if she is still continuing the affair. Why would she do that?

When she agrees to move with you, you ask for proof that the affair is over. You said that they contact each other at work, but I can't remember whether they actually work for the same company. Regardless of that, she may well have to leave that job and stay at home for a while, giving you access to her devices, to prove to you that contact is impossible.

If she wants to rebuild the marriage, she will understand why giving up her job is mandatory. If she baulks at giving up her job, it is a sign that you are nowhere near ready to rebuild. Just as we can see now that she is not willing to give up contact today, you will see after the move whether she is serious about the marriage or not.

You need to just move, and stop this analysis paralysis. Recovery cannot begin while you live in that area.

So once I move, if she comes but is still resistant to make drastic changes, do I just keep going with Plan A for the full 6 months to try to fill her love bank enough to get her to agree to full transparency?
And if she doesn't come, do I immediately go into plan B on the day I leave?

You do not need to go to Plan B before the 6 months. Keep up with Plan A.

Thanks for the info.

We just had an interesting text exchange. She texted and said she was about to have to contact OM (supposedly after 2 weeks of no contact) because he lied and got her in trouble at her job. I told her just to ignore it because she told me she was stopping contact and it's not fair to me or our family. She said she is too mad and we will just have to start over.

How do I handle a situation like that in the future? What if OM does something for revenge where WW needs to talk to him? I can't really imagine a scenario where she would need to, but I guess it could be possible since they worked together so long and the current employees are having to complete the work he left behind.

Last night I told her to let me talk to him and handle this situation or to ignore it. She ended up calling him though and fussing until he hung up on her. I heard it all on the voice recorder. She thinks it is all ok since she called him out of anger, but I've started over and am back to demanding no contact again.

Is it possible that this could be part of the affair ending, or is it more likely just a fight and they will eventually try to make up?

Your wife will never "need" to talk to him. She talked to him last night because she wanted to.

She isn't NC until she is NC. If she does this in the future, she isn't NC. If he can reach her in the future, then she has not instituted EPs, she has not made contact impossible, and she isn't being genuine about recovery.

Please stop coming up with these scenarios. Your wife hasn't ended contact, because she hasn't put herself out of his reach, and you will not be in recovery until she does.

She did not have to contact him about this. She only had to contact her employer about the lie.

She contacted him because she wanted to. Accept that, and stop making excuses for her.

Did you all forget about the little "no contact" clause? I don't understand why you are doing this?? Do you understand that no contact means no contact?

So what do I dd now? I told her again that I need her to promise to end all contact for good and never speak to him again no matter what. She is just ignoring that and acting like everything is ok. She is basically doing to me what I have been doing to her. I'm sure that since OM hung up on her last night, she is dying to speak to him again.
I feel like a fool though. She has to see that even though she openly talked to OM and is ignoring my demand for no contact, nothing has changed. I'm still being nice and friendly.
I feel like I want to get away and start plan B until I move in a couple weeks. Getting real tired of the pain and worry.

Move. Invite her to follow.

You are not ready for Plan B UNLESS you have decided you do not want to save your marriage.

I just about feel like I don't want to save it. I want to wait a couple days to make sure that's what I want.
I've been bugging her to death today saying stop contact, since she called him yesterday. I said if she can't cut contact for good, then I am going to have to leave. She started off ignoring me most of the day while still being very nice. Now though, she is saying the marriage will never be great because she will never stop thinking about him and that she doesn't care if I leave or not.

I can't keep doing this though. I am going to end up getting fired for poor job performance or stay sick from stress. It's been about 2 months in Plan A, but I don't see how I can last the whole 6.

Don't threaten that you'll leave. If you need to leave, just leave. It's counter-productive to Plan A to make threats.

Dr. Harley advises betrayed husbands to get on short-term anti-depressants.

I am on anti-depressants. They are helping a lot, but I'm just tired of this cycle of getting hurt, taking a few days to get over it, and then getting hurt again. I just know a divorce and not getting to see my kids everyday will hurt them very badly.
When we get along, I remember why I love her. But she is draining my love bank pretty low.

DB, you might want to see your doctor and see if the antidepressants can be adjusted at all.

If your kids need you to avoid divorce at all costs, you might consider staying on antidepressants until they are grown and then divorcing. Dr. Harley has advised men to do that in some very rare cases where the wife would not stop her affairs but the kids took a major turn for the worse when their father was out of the house. If so I think you'd want to get those ADs fined tuned perfectly, and you'd want to see if you can get some regular support from Dr. Harley.

Yeah. It's just the 5 year old that worries me. He has been attached to me more than his mother since he was 3 months old. It would destroy him I'm afraid. The 2 year old seems to like both parents equally.

I think I definitely will.check on getting the meds adjusted, but I don't think I could stay with her until the kids are grown if she is still having affairs. It woukd have to be some strong medicine.

I still have 4 months left in Plan A. So a lot could happen in that time I guess.

If I were you, I'd get my meds adjusted and stick it out 4 more months for the sake of my kids. No one will judge you if you don't. But you are right, a lot can happen in 4 months. ESPECIALLY if she follows you after you move.

I think that's what I am going to do Prisca. I feel a little better since I got home from work and ate supper and played with the kids.

Sugar Cane (and Bob),

At risk of intrusion I need to say the following.

SC, I've been looking in here and occasionally commenting over the last five years. I have been looking at Bob's story occasionally and have made a couple of comments. I admit that, as you posted in response to my comment on another story recently I tend to post from my emotions and reactions and not exactly from MB. However, I want to tell you that in my time looking in here I have not seen a more succinct and knowledgeable post as this one that you made the other day in response to Bob's perception of recovery. Very simply and not to embarrass you here - I feel you have a gift and, based on your knowledge of MB, but it's the way you express and use it. You seem to be able to get to the bottom like of a poster's problem after careful review, and with concern. All I can say it that those here who do encounter you are fortunate.

Bob, given what I've said above and I have been on here awhile, Sugar Cane has it pegged. Listen to her! I believe what she is saying is that the recovery of your M takes place WHEN your WW take visible action steps to end her affair and commit to your M. Visible and commit are the key words. I'e, commitment to no contact, a no-contact letter approved and sent by you, a sincere effort on her part to at least be open to MB as a resource, leaving her present job, and willing to move to a new location with you.

Tom

Thanks Tom. Your post reminded me of a question:

Once/if she ends the affair for good and is in withdrawal, won't it be a few weeks when the withdrawal starts to fade a little before she will be very likely to consider making any big changes and following the checklist further?

The changes on the checklist will initiate withdrawal but also moving out of withdrawal by recovering the marriage. Focus on the checklist/Plan A.

Hi Bob,

It may be a slow weekend here as it's a holiday weekend, but I hope that a few of the more knowledgeable members can address your last question, as Apples just did. The checklist reminder is a good example of visible actions steps. Since it is a long holiday weekend, have you thought of some Plan A efforts? E.g., grilling or preparing a nice dinner, a picnic for you guys or attending a community celebration - parade, cookout, etc. or some activity that you two enjoyed on past summer holidays. In other words, this is probably a good time for you to take a break from your concerns and questions and just try to offer your W some pleasant time together.

Tom

Yeah Tom. We have been spending 99% of our time together outside of work. We usually have the kids aggravating us, but sometimes we do stuff alone.

I brought up the checklist Saturday and she threw one of her temper tantrums and said she is done with the marriage and that OM is better than me and that her being at home and not talking to him should be enough for me. I just repeated the stuff about the checklist, ignored the verbal abuse and walked around singing and joking with the kids. She laid in the bed for about an hour and got up and started acting nice again, after she saw I wasn't going to fight with her or give up on the checklist.

I think I finally got my mental state straightened out for the most part. I see now that she is lucky to have me willing to give her a chance at a great marriage. If she doesn't take it in the end, then that is her loss and I will treat some other girl like a queen one day. I don't tell or show her any of this, of course, but it seems like she can tell I have changed.

I left a nice, short note for WW to find this morning. Then we texted a little this morning and had a nice little talk about the kids and other things. Then I brought up the checklist while things were going good and sent her into a temper tantrum. She said she will not give up her social media and that I am not worth it and if I keep asking then she is going to the lawyer. I just responded "show me I can trust you and I will show you how we can make this marriage great and I will make you the happiest girl in the world."

I logged in to her snapchat yesterday and got the notification text and verification code it sent to her phone and deleted them. And saved it to remember my phone everytime I log in. But today it sent another verification code to her, but right when I opened it I saw a message that it said a new friend added her, and that's when it logged me out and sent the code to her phone. As soon as I saw that and it sent her the message, I sent as message that simply said "dang 'her name'". That's when the tantrum started and she said I keep accusing her and she is doing nothing wrong and either I trust her or we are finished.

We are kind of at a stalemate right now because I am picking up nothing on my snooping, but she is showing no withdrawal and still refusing to do everything on the checklist.

I'm just continuing with Plan A and bringing up the checklist. Any other ideas or strategies?

I just found out that it's going to be another 5 weeks before I can move. Some stuff happened at work and they won't transfer me until it all gets straightened out. I've been throwing the idea out there to WW, but she says we can't move for various reasons.

I'm still bringing up the checklist at least twice per day. Is it OK to add to the checklist? She is the accountant for her company, so she pays all the bills. I want to ask her to show me the phone bill for her job everyday and also bring her work computer home like once per week so I can look at it. She can delete her tracks on the computer, but I should be able to recover that somehow or at least make her think I can or put spyware on it.
Or should I give up on the checklist and wait to see if she is going to move with me or not?

Forgot to add:
She is still complaining about giving up social media. So I said delete everything but facebook and instagram and try that out a while. Then I will try to get her to give up those too. Is that bad, trying to get her to quit them gradually as long as I don't give up until all social media is gone?

Keep bringing it up.
"We can't recover our marriage unless we move."

This falls under the "Allow technical accountability" part of the checklist.

Keep bringing it up, once a day.



Don't try to get her to do it gradually. That's not how addiction withdrawal works.

You need to insist that she needs to give up all social media for your sake. Otherwise, you send the message that this is negotiable.

Will it be gradual in practice? Probably. But if you ask for "gradual" you will get "never." You have to ask for "immediate and total" to even get "gradual."

I complained about giving up social media, too. I was addicted to facebook. My complaining didn't hurt our recovery.

I been wondering, if running into OM can send WW back into the affair, suppose me and WW recover perfectly and everything is great and a year or two from now she accidentally bumps in to him. Is she likely to try to secretly contact him again, or start thinking about him for a month after that? It just seems like we can never really have a great relationship if seeing one person like that can instantly split us apart.

Have you read the book Surviving an Affair?
Yes, it says even seeing someone 20 years after the fact has caused a re-lapse. It is why its called "EXTRAORDINARY" precautions and not simple...

IF you have a good relationship, you won't think about that.

I don't know if it helps, but what if your wife was abused by someone? If seeing that person triggered her and could hurt her and your relationship every time she saw that person.... would it really effect your every day life? Would you think about ending things with her because this was true?

Go to great lengths to make sure she never see's or talks to him again and create a romantic relationship and the pain of the past will fade.
Dr. H has counseled many many many couples who it is true that seeing the OW/OM might break them apart, yet they have wonderful, romantic relationships anyways.

Which is why you need to make "bumping into him" an impossibility. Which is why you need to move.

She's an addict. He's her drug. You don't let an addict come anywhere near her drug if you expect her to stay sober.

I just worry that she is always going to be thinking OM is the greatest guy on Earth, since they didn't get to have have a real relationship and see eachother's flaws. So it seems like I will always be 2nd class.

It does help thinking about it as an abuse, like Elaina7 said.

I'm thinking though, if she moves with me, we recover perfectly, but 2 or 3 years from now we return to town to visit family and bump into OM on accident. Could all of this pain be for nothing? Is it a guarantee that an accidental run-in with OM will cause us problems for the rest of our lives, or does it all depend? I know alcoholics that quit drinking but after several years they were able to start going to parties and places with alcohol again and remain sober. Couldn't it be like that one day?

No.

You will need to make "accidentally bumping into him" an impossibility. Which means you will need to move, and never return.

You cannot "recover perfectly," as you say, and remain "2nd class." If you recover, she will be in love with you. The only reason she'll still be thinking about OM is IF YOU DON'T RECOVER.

We had a huge fight last night. It started yesterday morning when I brought up the checklist. She got mad and I ignored it and acted nice. She eventually calmed down that evening and I told her about showing me the work phone bill and computer. She threw a fit and told me to sleep in the spare bed. I said I am sleeping in MY bed. She got up to leave and take the kids but they were crying and wanting to go to sleep. So she ended up leaving.
I tried to go to sleep, but couldn't. I looked at the phone account and saw she texted OM as soon as she left. So I got up and drove around to look for her. She ended up calling me and I told her to tell OM to meet me somewhere so we could finish this. She called back and was crying so I eventually went home and she came home.
She cried and was saying she has been doing everything right and hasn't talked to OM in a couple weeks but because I keep spying and bringing up the checklist that it pushes her away. She also said she has no one to talk to because she cant call her mom or sisters because she is afraid i am listening in. I repeated the usual about needing the stuff done on the checklist so we can get past the affair and start to recover. She got up, yelling and throwing stuff around. Finally she said she will do everything on the checklist but said she is also going to be the worst wife possible and try to make me miserable forever.

Okay, great Run with this. She can start with the no contact letter that you approve and mail. She can then give you access to everything, and quit all social media. She can also join you in preparing for your move!

Ignore her comments about trying to be the worst wife possible and making you miserable. Seriously, try not to laugh in her face -- that would be a love buster.

Well this morning she is calmed down a little and saying we need to just end it. She says the checklist only works if both spouses are wanting to save the marriage and that she doesn't want to save it. She said she was just going to go live with her mom. I messed up a little and told her that she only feels that way because she is still in contact with OM. She got mad and said she hates when I try to tell her what she thinks and feels. Then she said to just leave her alone.

I walked away and sent her a text saying we owe it to the kids to give it 1 real chance with 100% effort. And I also said I am sorry for trying to tell her what she thinks and feels, and that I love her and will do whatever it takes to make her happy and make the marriage great for both of us, but that we have ro follow the checklist since it has helped many other couples.

Do you think I messed up badly by telling her last night to tell OM to face me like a man and stop sneaking around?

I saw messages between WW and her sister this morning. Her sister is telling her she needs to leave since she doesn't feel the same way about fixing the marriage. She also said it is not acceptable for me to threaten OM like that. And that she is calling the cops next time WW calls her and says I am doing that.

I think you did awesome and you provoked the situation that may save your marriage. Take her up on her offer and get her to go no contact like Prisca said. Then follow the rest of the plan to get her to fall back in love with you. Prisca was just like that all the time - like trying to make love to a porcupine. Then suddenly the love bank deposits I was making were enough to make her fall in love with me, and I had it made!

She's annoyed with you BECAUSE you are making progress. Keep opposing the affair, keep insisting you will not share her, and win her back.

Don't minimize your lovebusters by calling them little mistakes. This was a disrespectful judgement, and it was a huge lovebuster to her. When you say things like that, it only confirms in her mind that OM is her knight in shining armor. You only make him look better to her.

No, this was not a mistake.

Oh well. I told her this morning to start the checklist over and make a commitment to me to end the affair. She sent a big text saying I am suffocating her since I keep doing this and she cant take it anymore. She said she is done.
I just said "promise me you will never communicate with him again forever". She said "stop". Then she started talking about random stuff and acting like nothing happened.

Should I bring it up again today or wait till tomorrow? I really want her to at least promise she will never speak to him again. That would satisfy me for a day or two until we get further down the checklist again.

Are you repeating to her how much it hurts you when she contacts him? You need her to agree to stop contacting him in order to avoid the devastating emotional pain it causes you. She is causing you indescribable pain by refusing to go no contact with him. Don't let her try to paint this as you being controlling. She is the one being controlling trying to get you to accept her interactions with this interloper.

I'm also worried since I was telling OM to face me like a man and he responds by telling WW he will just call the cops if I do anything, that WW will see me as psychotic or something. She also has her sister telling her it is unacceptable for me to be threatening people. I feel like that makes OM look more calm and normal instead of weak or scared. And it makes me look like I am dangerous and not safe around the kids or something.

You need to STOP worrying about how WW is thinking, or how her sister is thinking, and just keep following the plan.

Of course it is totally irrational for someone to think a man is controlling and smothering his wife by asking her not to have a boyfriend. However, your wife is wayward and foggy and that makes her irrational. You cannot worry about or change your own RATIONAL course of action based on her irrational foggy wayward thoughts.

Thanks Unwritten. Hearing that helps a lot.

I am planning on going to OM's house today to tell him not to talk to her wether she calls him or he calls her. I feel kind of stupid though, because he has actually been leaving her alone. It's just when she fights with me and calls him, he is very eager to talk to her. I want to make him understand that is not acceptable.

Once WW finds out I went to his house, she is going to complain to her sister and her sister is going to tell her she needs to move out and get away from me. And that is probably what she will do.

Saturday night in asked her to promise me she wouldn't speak to OM ever again. She said "do you promise me you won't try to fight him again?" I said ok. But since then she has fought some more and got wild and crazy. And today she changes the subject when I ask her to promise no contact for life. So I guess my part of that deal is off as well.

I'm just trying to think about all possible outcomes before I go confront him again. If he is even home. Maybe I can talk to his mom again at least. But I am also trying to mentally prepare myself for when WW finds out and leaves me tonight or goes and calls OM again. Or if OM calls the police or anything else. I'm not going to do anything crazy that could get me in trouble

I just went to OMs house. His truck was there but the girl that answered the door said he wasn't home. She acted like she didn't know if he was home or not at first but then said he wasn't. So he was probably hiding or something. But I told the girl to tell him I was there.

Shoukd I tell WW I went there and he was hiding or just wait for him to make a move?

I sent him a message right after saying WW is off limits and don't talk to her while we are still together too.

OM responded to my message already, so I guess he was at home hiding since he found out so quick. He wrote back "I am not pursuing her in any way. I am leaving y'all to yalls business. Do not come to my house again."

So I said no problem. If we split up y'all can do what y'all want. But not before then.

Shola I let WW know this, or just hope that next time she tries to call him he doesn't answer?

Please don't tell him things that give him permission to have any relationship or future contact with her. That defeats the purpose! "If you split up?" What? "While we are still together" Really?

Read your last two posts and tell me if you see what I am seeing.

You married her till death do you part, remember? You are legally obligated to each other and you love your wife and he needs to stay away. Done. Period. End of sentence.

And if he really isn't talking or pursuing your WW why is he taking her calls?

Have you listened to the clips in here?
"I Encourage BHs to Confront OM" Dr Harley

"Don't Put up with OM" per Dr Harley

I havent said anything to WW yet. I am waiting to see if OM tells her I came to his house.
But I want to tell her, because I imagine she will immediately call OM. And I want to see if he takes her call or ignores her, so I can see if I need to confront him again. And I want her to know he is a coward and hid from me, and let her know I am going the distance for her. Not sure if I should tell her at this time or not though.

Thanks for reminding me of those radio clips, Brainhurts. I started listening but didn't finish.

Didntquit, I see what you mean. I thought about that too after I sent it, and it sounded stupid. I was thinking in my head "if I decide I don't want her, then you can have her." But I said it stupidly. If I find out he talks to her again, I will clarify a little better and tell him it's not over until I say it is.

I was trying to be real careful with my words since OM is a police officer and I don't want anything on record that could be used to make me look bad in court. He wouldn't face me in person so I had to message him, and I was imagining being in court one day with a judge reading my messages.

But I do regret saying what I did, and I realize it was stupid.

A couple questions:

Our 5 year old has never wet the bed before. Now he has done it twice already this week. I am pretty sure I read where Dr. Harley says an affair can affect children in this way. Is there a way that I can use that to help WW realize how she is hurting the kids? I would I mention it without being disrepectful or anything like that?

Whenever I refused to sleep in the spare bed the other night, WW actually tried to leave with the kids and told them they would never see their daddy again. I was laying there trying to read the kids a bed time story while she was yelling for me to get out the bed. The 5 year old actually told me, "daddy, let's just go in the other bed."

Of course all of that was my fault for making WW so angry and unable to control herself (she actually said that).

WW just called me at work. She just found out that I went to OM's house the other day to confront him. He emailed her to tell her.

She was furious, as expected. Saying since he lives with his mother and it's not his house, I'm not supposed to go over there. She said I am going to get arrested and somehow I am endangering our kids. According to her, it is illegal to go to a person's house that had an affair with your wife.

She asked why did I do it and I said because I am a man and I am going to fight for my wife and family everytime. She said she can't live like this and she is done.

She was mad too since I didn't tell her I went to his house. She said since I didn't tell her, that proves that I knew it was wrong. I told her I didn't tell her because I was waiting to see if he would tell her or not.

Well now you know for sure that they are still in contact. Has she changed all her contact information?

No. She gave me her passwords a couple weeks ago, but is still holding out on her work email and work laptop. I almost had her give me access to those until her sister told her that is unreasonable. So that emboldened her and set me back.

I am just about ready to give up. I'm to the point where I almost hate her. Sometimes when the fog lifts for a few hours and she acts like her old self, she isn't so bad. But I have 3 and a half months left on plan A and I am moving in a few weeks, so I may as well tuff it out a little longer.

Right after she called me yesterday complaining about me going to OM's house, she texted my mom complaining. She was threatening to tell my mom so I told her my mom and entire family and everyone else except her mom and sister support me confronting OM. So she texted my mom and said I am still drinking and have pointed guns at her in the past. My mom knows I haven't drank in a couple years and I have never pointed a gun at anyone.
My mom told her "well quit calling that lose and Bob won't have to confront him". I intercepted the texts and told my mom to just ignore her, so she did.
Today WW made her mom skip work to keep our sick child since she is angry at my mom.
WW ignored me for several hours after all this, but I stayed calm and when I got home she was calmed down too.
I did all the chores for her last night and sent her a text this morning saying I love her and to have have a good day. No response.
I'm going to just leave her alone all day unless she texts me, and keep plan A up when we get home.

Should I try to have physical relations with WW or just wait for her to initiate? I've been waiting to try so she doesn't think I'm only being nice for that reason.

She's still in the affair. She is in contact with him and refuses to end it. You are in Plan A, which is meeting her ENs as much as she will allow.

Is asking for her sex meeting her ENs, or yours? Do you think this would be a love bank deposit, or a love buster, given her current hostility to you?

Also, as she is in contact with him, she might be having sex with him. Do you want to risk getting an STI?

Ok, I was just worried she might be thinking I don't want her or something if I didn't at least try occassionally.

I'm 99% certain she is not meeting up with OM though. I have her tracked on the GPS, voice recorder in her car, notified our neighbors to tell me if any other vehicles are at our house and I talk to her most of the day and spend all of our non-work time together. So if they are still meeting up, they are way smarter than I am.

She seemed to be in withdrawal most of the evening yesterday. Either that or she is getting tired of me asking for transparency and is ready to take off again. But she actually did finally do a couple nice things for me.
All she has left is her work phone, work email and work laptop, which is still plenty. She will fight with me at night and reluctantly agree to share that, but the next day she refuses to do it.
I go through 3 or 4 day stretches where I am afraid to mention transparency, because she is in a combative mood and I feel like if I bring it up it will just push her away.

At the beginning of this thread he was a co-worker. Is he still? I don't have time to read this whole thing to find out.

No, he quit a month after D-day. Divorced his wife 3 months before D-day.

What keeps driving me crazy is that she can go 2 weeks with no contact (verified from their conversation on the VAR), and she didnt try to use her work phone or work computer that whole time to contact him. And he didnt try to contact her either. And she showed no withdrawal during that whole 2 weeks.

OM is really making me look bad. She told him not to contact her and he has done that, until she calls him and he is very willing to talk. But he is leaving her alone and here I am at home bugging her everyday to be transparent and give up social media.
She has to be thinking life will be better with OM instead of me. Even though I have been treating her like a queen and waiting on her hand and foot, she doesn't see it. It's very discouraging.

That's a very peculiar interpretation - that he is "making you look bad". There seems to be an underlying feeling that you feel our advice to keep requesting transparency is making your marriage worse than it otherwise would be.

I know the advice is good. It just scares me to death when I demand transparency and she says I am pushing her further away. But I am also afraid of being married and the affair going on forever.
Today is just a bad day I guess. She must have forgot she gave me her icloud password where I could see her text messages. Because I mentioned it yesterday and she said, "you wonder why I fight you on transparency, because I can't even vent to my sister without you reading my texts. That is an invasion of privacy."
I responded, "I am sorry you put us in this position. I don't like having to do this. But I will not share my wife with another man."
But the rest of the evening she was happy and in a good mood.
Now she is back to barely talking again. She had been calling me on her way to work and her way home, and texting all day at work. Not now. She is probably dying to call OM and complain to him. If she hasn't already.

She is mad too since I went to OM's house to confront him. She looks at it like I am threatening her, that if she calls him I am going to go beat him up. But I actually told him not to talk to her even if she calls him.

I'm wondering if I am doing a good Plan A sometimes. Should I add or change this? This is a typical day:

I text her every morning around the time she wakes up and say, "I love you. Have a good day at work."

I try to text or call throughout the day, if she is in a talkative mood I talk as long as she keeps responding. If she isn't talkative I usually leave her alone and don't keep texting or calling to get her to talk.

We go to our martial arts class at least two nights a week. On good days we talk on the phone the whole drive home (we meet at the class after work in seperate vehicles). Lately we have been skipping the class to do some projects on the house and yard.

At home I do all the chores and take care of the kids. I cook her supper and clean while she usually lays in bed watching TV. I do all i can to keep the kids from bothering her.

I try to make her laugh or tell her stories. Sometimes she responds positively.

At bedtime, I tell her "Good night. I love you." Sometimes she says it back, sometimes she ignores it.

We spend all our evenings and weekends together. Usually the kids are with us or we are doing a project together.

I had been texting her at work usually to talk about transparency. Lately I have been waiting to mention it at home after I have a chance to do something really nice for her. She gets mad and says no or says we have nothing worth saving or that she is done and getting a divorce the next day. I usually walk away at this point and go play with the kids and try to seem happy.

On days where she doesn't talk to me much, I usually text once or twice to ask her what she is doing. Should I just leave her alone on these days, or try to stimulate conversation? I don't want to appear to be accusing her of doing something or acting worried?

Also, I have no life and make no plans. All I do everyday is wait to see what she wants to do and then join her on that. Should I plan things and ask her to join me, or keep joining in on whatever she wants us to do?

She just called and was being very nice, but then she said I need to give her IPad back to her. I said the iPad is the only way I can see her messages and make sure she is not contacting OM. She blew up and said I shouldn't be able to read messages unless they are to OM. (We have 2 other iPads at home and Anda kindle. She has only ever used this iPad for reading, nothing else. She doesn't care about it another time except when she doesn't want me to see something.

Is it unreasonable for me to be able to read messages she sends to people other than OM? I just want to be sure in case she decides to throw a tantrum and run off tonight, I won't be worried that I am being unreasonable.

Since OM tried to contact WW after I went to confront him a second time, what kind of message can I send him to tell him his chance of me being nice is over with. He has my number blocked so I can't call. And he is a cop so I have to be careful in what I say so it can't be used against me in court or something.

bob, forgive my asking you to recap again, but I get you muddled up with the other long-running WW cases we have at the moment.

The affair is fully exposed, OM left the company, and he also divorced his wife some months ago. Your wife claims that the affair is over, but she keeps contacting OM whenever she likes. Is all of that correct?

Is she saying that she is committed to your marriage, or is she protesting that she is only there under sufferance/for the kids/while she looks for a place of her own/or under some other condition?

The fact that she refuses to give you access to her work stuff makes me think that she has never recommitted - is that correct?

Why, then, does she say that the affair is over (it's obviously not over, but I'm trying to see where she is on this). Did he dump her?

If he is divorced, why is he not with her?

Why hasn't she left you (or filed for divorce to kick you out), so that she can pursue him openly?

My questions are odd, but your thread is so long, and your habit of tweeting almost every interaction you have with her makes it so muddled, that I cannot work this out for myself.

They worked together. He was already thinking of leaving the job for a different career, so on D-day when she decided to first reconcile, he went ahead and left and said it was to do her and favor.

He divorced his wife several months before d-day. Looking back at old texts, WW planned to divorce me on several occasions but woukd change her mind right before every time.

WW claimed to have ended the affair but said her and OM are just friends now. OM still wants a relationship but WW said that is not her problem.

Me and OM's ex wife exposed to everyone. WW moved out and wanted divorce.

I started plan A around April 1st and told her to come home. Her and OM woukd communicate off and on, and WW finally stopped and reluctantly agreed to some transparency.

She still threatens divorce when I bring up the checklist, but I ignore it and she is back to normal usually the next day.

She started at the beginning of plan A saying she was only home for the kids. Now she says the fact that she is with me shoukd be enough to prove she wants to be married. She says she doesn't want to do anymore of the checklist and I should trust that she isn't talking to OM.

I am planning on moving and starting a new job in a few weeks, since OM lives about 10 minutes down the road from us. I have only briefly mentioned this to WW. Haven't told her it's already planned out.

From what I can tell, she thinks since they aren't having sex anymore, then it's not an affair. She wants to be married to me for the kids, but have OM as her best friend. OM is just sitting back going along with whatever she says, waiting for me to push her over the edge so she will run to him.

Did the forum know that he lives 10 minutes away? Didn't we ever tell you to move right now?

Did you ever openly tell her that recovery was not possible under these conditions, and you would have to move? Moving is on the checklist that Dr Harley prepared, that is circulated regularly on this forum. Did you ever raise this with her? You can't recover unless both parties volunteer to do the things on the checklist. How do you come to be planning a move in secret? Why is it a secret?

For that matter, have you ever told her that she will need to change jobs, and probably give up work for a while, since the fact that she works is facilitating her contact?

I'm moving when my job transfer starts in a few weeks. I mention the checklist daily and I say "we are going to end up having to move since you will not stop." She usually blows up at that point and says "I am not talking to him but you won't believe me." I walk away at those points and act as cheerful as I can.
She doesn't know I am serious about moving. She thinks I will eventually give up and just settle for a loveless marriage. When it gets about 3 weeks from the departure date, I plan to start showing her how serious I am.

I haven't been pushing it too hard though, because it causes a fight and she definitely won't come if we fight non stop, I think. At this point I don't care so much. I need to leave the area to recover myself. If she comes, great. If not, maybe she will join me later or I will move on without her.

And will you be taking the kids if she doesn't move with you?

Are you fighting with her? If you are, STOP!! She can't fight if you're not fighting back.

You have a way of not really answering the questions I asked. You did this with the previous post in which I asked why they are not together, since she is clearly still in love with him, and he is divorced.

In this post, I asked you what the forum knew about his living 10 minutes away from you. You should have moved before now, and not waited on a job transfer. No wonder your wife still communicates regularly with him; you haven't taken her out of the environment in which she had the affair.

And telling her "we are going to end up having to move since you will not stop" is not the point AT ALL.

Moving house is mandatory if the OP lives nearby. It does not matter whether the wife "will not stop" reaching out to him. Moving cannot be shelved if for some reason she DOES stop reaching out to him. Moving is compulsory because recovery is impossible if you could bump into OM at any time.

Dr Harley describes himself as "adamant" that a couple must move if there is any chance of contact with OM. We had a poster here, bigkahuna, who put his house up for letting and moved the whole family out within days of D Day. They only went back when OM moved, years later. That is the kind of action that you need to take to cut you wife out of the addictive atmosphere in which she still lives.

The other break that needs to be made is with her job. She cannot continue to work outside of the home if she insists on using company privileges to contact OM.

If you had ever seized the moment, since she claims the affair is over, and put the house up for rent and moved, and told her she must either choose transparency with her work situation, or give up working outside, at least she would have made a clear choice of either committing to recovery or being on her own. However, all you are getting now from "bringing up the checklist every day" is her refusal to cooperate, and the certain knowledge that she contacts OM as and when she pleases, at work.

I'm not sure why they aren't together. OM wants to be. WW says she stopped the affair and is trying to work on the marriage. But she gets mad every two weeks or so and uses that as an excuse to contact OM. She also feels guilty about getting a divorce and keeping the kids from seeing me everyday, because even she admits the kids are way, way more attached to me.

The forum has been aware that OM lives close and has advised me to move. I had to take my time moving. I am not rich and can't move my family with no money and no job. I was under the impression that I should keep up with Plan A while waiting for my new job to start and moving day to arrive.

BrainHurts,

I never fight with her. A couple times I messed up and argued back for a minute, but that is very rare.
I am taking the kids when I move.

When Dr. Harley talks about moving, how far does he mean? Is it just to make bumping into OM highly unlikely, or to make it where he and WW can't easily drive in a few hours and meet up? Where I am moving is about 5 hours away.

You should have seized the opportunity to hold her to her word that she is trying to work on the marriage, weeks ago. You should have rented out your house, and got her to leave her job. Since you didn't do that, but you will be moving in a while, you need to work on getting her to leave work. What is the plan for that once you move?

4 or 5 hours + away is a good idea.

Is this your email?
Radii Clip of Dollarbob's Email

Yeah. That was the 2nd email they discussed on the show so far. Dr. Harley emailed me once also.

I still haven't moved yet. My job keeps jerking me around. We had been getting along good in the meantime, until today. They have had no contact for a month and OM started showing up to her lunch exercise class. So she got mad and said I was controlling her and that it's not her fault that he is doing that. So she ended up texting him to see if he was going to keep going or if he could go somewhere else.
She showed me the conversation in an effort to not make a big deal of it. I told her she should quit or let me handle it. She didn't like either of those options. So I told her again that there has to be zero contact forever, no matter what. She fought with me some more and said the usual "I can't agree to that in case he does something like this again." Now she is trying to be friendly and get along again like we have been the past 2 weeks, but I feel like kicking her to the curb and going to confront OM again.

We leave in 2 days for a 9 day vacation. I was looking forward to it, but not now.

The past couple weeks, I have been thinking about going into plan B once we get back from our trip. I pretty much am ready to call it quits. There are moments here and there where I want to save it, but overall I am tired of this. If while I am in Plan B she eventually decides to contact me and follow the entire checklist, I may try again. But I win either way. If we never speak again,I can say I gave it my best and I can be proud, or if she comes back eventually and is willing to move and make the hard decisions, then that would be ok too.

This demonstrates why it is essential that you move if you are to recover. Every contact will set you back to square one.

Yeah. I definitely see that now Prisca. I discussed moving with her last night but she was still too upset to have a logical discussion. She said our 5 year old son told her to quit being mean to his daddy and yelling. So she was blaming me for turning the kids against her.

She gave me a half hearted apology this morning and is trying her hardest to be nice today since we leave tomorrow for a 9 day vacation, but I'm still a little mad. So it's hard to be nice right now.

I'm just going to continue Plan A during our vacation and when we get back I am going to do whatever I can to move, since I can't keep waiting while my job keeps postponing my transfer.

I was looking at WW's messages today since she gave me the passwords a few weeks ago, and it accidentally sent her a notification. She called immediately and asked what I was doing. I told her. She said "i told you snooping in my stuff is unacceptable and i wont live like that" (after she gave me the passwords herself a while back). She said we need to seperate and she is staying at her mom's tonight.

I had noticed she sent a message to a coworker to tell OM to be safe at work over a week ago (he's a cop). So I repeated the same old same old about she must have no contact like she already promised me before. She just said "whatever".

She has done this several times before, but usually she is yelling and saying we are getting a divorce.
This time she is more calm and talking about seperation. She also didn't deny talking to OM, so I assume there was more contact since the message I saw from over a week ago.

The past couple weeks I have been feeling good because I know I am putting up with all this pain to save my family, but now that she has done this I feel just like D-day again.

What shoukd I do? Obviously I have to continue to work on moving away, but I doubt she is going to come and it coukd take a little while longer still. Should I just continue plan A and if she feels bad eventually and wants to try again, use that opportunity to demand we move? Or should I cut the last 2 months of Plan A short and go to plan B and try to get her to move if she comes back after the plan B runs it's course?

Also, she has 2 life long friends that she hasn't really spoken to in the past year or two, so I forgot about them during my initial exposure. Should I go ahead and expose to them in case they can help, or is it too late for that?

This all just happened in the past hour or two, so I am feeling sad and afraid for the future right now. At least I have the kids at home with me tonight.

Hi DB,
She could be using this separation as a way to punish you so you will stop snooping and she can continue her affair. If she finds out that her tantrum won't work, she might forgo doing it.

She needs to be separated from him, what is the hold up on the move?

Plan B doesn't bring back Wayward Wives, it is just to save you. So if you plan B, your marriage is over. Keep up with Plan A as long as you can.

What kinds of things are you doing for plan A?

Tell your WW that those that have nothing to hide, hide nothing.

Also include that her affair has broken the trust. That the trust can never be repaired without verification that the affair is dead and their is NC.

My job was supposed to be transferring me but they keep pushing it back and jerking me around. So I am going to have to find a different job if I hope to move, and it is taking a little while.
I just started looking into joining the Air Force last night. It looks like they will provide housing for me and my family and i can learn a new career if I join. It looks like if I do leave though, she is going to fight me and try to keep the kids. Not sure how that will work.
For plan A I have been having conversations with her and listening and being interested in everything she says. I usually leave her a note or call her every morning to say I love her and to have a good day. I've been doing all the chores at home and everything she asks me to do for her. We have been spending all our leisure time together on the weekends.

She previously let me have her IPad and passwords to prove she wasn't contacting OM. Last night she said to give her IPad back to her. Shoukd I give it to her and just say she is going to have to give it back when she decides to be transparent again?

I don't think you should enable her to continue her affair.

I agree. But it technically is her IPad. Even though the speakers are broken and she rarely ever used it before.

Can you slip some spy wear onto it without her knowing?

If you plan to stay married, do not take on a job that has any risk of you being separated overnight. Military marriages suffer because of that separation -- Dr. Harley has not been able to successfully help them.

How many months have you been in Plan A now?

Plan A has been 3 and a half months. October 1st will make 6 months.

I was looking at the air force because it appears I woukd be home every night. I have to talk to the recruiter some more though to make sure. I agree about overnight seperation.

I was looking into putting spyware on the iPad. But it's not possible because of the operating system on it. I have to wait until someone comes up with a way to jailbreak the software that it has. One of the big problems is that all of her devices are from Apple. It seems those are very hard to put spyware on, according to my research.

I reached out to her 2 friends that I forgot to expose to in the initial exposure, but they haven't answered yet.

I don't understand why, but for some reason I feel better whenever she is furious and yelling and hateful. I guess it helps me to see she is being unreasonable and in the fog. But so far this time she is being relatively calm. That makes me a little more worried.

Any recruiter who tells you that without a doubt you will be home EVERY night as a military member is a liar and should NOT be trusted. There is NO job in any of the military branches that can guarantee you you'll be home every night and never go away. As a 7+ year military wife who also grew up in a military town, I can tell you that for a FACT. Its not possible. Period.

Thanks for telling me that Wounded.

We were supposed to take the kids to a birthday party today, but WW said she didn't want me to go and went without me. So I texted her sister to say, "I just wanted to let you know I am not coming to the party because WW doesn't want me to. She is mad that I found out she has been talking to OM using her mom's phone and has been talking the whole time we were on vacation and ever since. So that is the real reason. I didn't want her ro lie to you and say something else."
Her sister said "I understand".
15 minutes later, WW came home cursing and raising hell in front of the kids saying they are no longer invited to the party and that she is now going to have my phone disconnected and wants me to leave the house. I politely declined to leave. She got madder and said she really came home because they wanted her to come.get the baby from me because they didn't want me to drop him off at the party and cause a big scene.
I assume she is lying about that last part, because I had just told her sister I wasn't coming and WW had already told me she was going to come.pick the baby up.
She is furious though. And was crying and saying she had only been home because she feels sorry for me and because I have no where else to live.

Kudos to your sister-in-law for apparently calling her out!
The sooner you move, the better for everybody.

Stick it out the full 6 months. October will be here before you know it. In 3 months, if she's still in contact, you can go to Plan B knowing you did your best.

If I were you, I'd somehow "misplace" the ipad for good.

She changed all of her passwords yesterday and said she is getting a divorce monday. She was mad because her family found out about the resuming of the affair.

Today she came over for a little while and was clearly depressed and sad. She wasn't being mean or hostile though. I went about my business being nice and cleaning the house and playing with the kids. Then she said she was going back to her mom's to spend the night, I told her she was welcome to stay here. She said I am serious that I am going to the lawyer tomorrow. I just replied ok.

The teacher of our martial arts class, who is someone we both admire and respect greatly, is supposed to talk to her for me tomorrow. He said his goal is the same as mine, to save my marriage. We coukdnt decide if I shoukd tell WW yet, or just let him suprise her tomorrow. I still don't know. I think I shoukd tell her I talked to him, while she is still depressed, so that will compound the situation. But then she may refuse to speak to him tomorrow.

Anyway, if we make it thru all this and she comes back home, maybe that can be the catalyst to get her to agree to move with me finally.

Please keep praying for me and my wife and 2 kids.

She hasn't asked about the iPad anymore, but it's useless now that she changed her passwords. I will still keep it hidden in case I am eventually able to find spyware for it.

I overheard WW and OM talking on the VAR yesterday. She was complaining that she shoukd have divorced when she had the chance before trying to reconcile. She said now she feels bad because everyone sees her as the bad guy. So I guess that's good.
I had to take the VAR out to charge the batteries and I'm not sure when I can put it back.

Woukd it be a good idea to hint to WW that I can hear her conversations? She was paranoid before that I coukd do that but she forgot I guess. I think it woukd be good to have her worry that I'm listening everytime they talk. And I am tired of listening to the VAR. It's painful and it's fairly useless now that she is staying at her mom's and openly talking to OM.

She has been staying with her mom for a week now. She changed the password on the bank account so I can't see how much we have. I doubt she is going to put her check in there to help pay bills. Eventually I will run out of money since I can't afford to pay all the bills and feed the kids on just my income. What am I supposed to do? The house is in her name, but was bought after we married. So it's half my house.

Should I stop my direct deposit and cash my paycheck and just not pay the mortgage if that time comes? I can pay all the other bills, just not the mortgage. I can let her worry about that I guess.

1. Call or go into bank and get new password. Or just open your own account. Yes, its time to cut her out. Plan A doesn't say you can't protect yourself.

2. Time to talk to a lawyer-sorry.

3. I wouldn't pay mortgage and make sure you and kids have food etc first. Yes-let her worry about it.

And I would absolutely stop your direct deposit. GEt access to this account, but open a new account and start putting your money in it.

You can tell her you know she is still talking to OM. I wouldn't hint -- I'd out right tell her you know, and that it hurts you terribly and you need it to stop.

Listening to the VAR from yesterday, I heard her telling the whole story to her friend about why she resumed the affair and left home to stay with her mom. She justified it all very well, which makes me feel terrible. But she also said she is having trouble letting go of the marriage and filing for divorce, and she said she doesn't know why it is so hard. She said she doesn't want to hurt me and the kids any further (she cried as she said this), and she also said it's hard because I have become a much better husband since all this began. She said "he has been the perfect husband since finding out about the affair, except for the spying". And she said she feels bad because I am still trying to win her back and telling her everyday that I love her a lot and want to create a romantic marriage.

So it sounds like the Plan A is causing her a lot of turmoil and working like it's supposed to. But it's painful hearing her justify leaving her family at home to continue the affair uninterrupted.

She seemed depressed a little when I saw her for 10 minutes this evening. So I guess that's a good sign.

I guess if she comes home this time before my plan A is finished and decides to give the marriage a real chance, I can use that momentum to get her to move with me.

But I noticed it is a lot easier to do the plan A this time, since this is my second time going thru a seperation like this with her. But it's still very painful.

Man, last night and this morning when she called she was very depressed and stressed out. Last thing she mentioned was she was trying to get an apartment and the stress is making her want to kill herself.

She texted an hour ago and said her job approved her for the free apartment. She was being super nice asking if I wanted to just refinance the house in my name and keep it. And she woukd still help pay and help pick up kids and school and drop them off. I told her that it will still be hard on the kids not getting to see each parent for a week at a time. She just said that she is doing everything she can to make it easy on me and not take anything from me. And that I just need to accept it and be civil for the kids. I said me and the kids and her all lose, the only person who will benefit from this is OM, because he can move out from his mom's house and live with her in the apartment.
She said this is between me and her and has nothing to do with OM.

It makes me so mad how all of a sudden she is trying to act like she is such a generous person. After I did a nearly flawless plan A for 4 months while getting yelled at and called every name in the book. Now she wants to be civil.

It hurts so much more whenever she is calm and nice about splitting up. Like it doesn't bother her one bit. I actually feel better when she is trying to be mean and hurt me purposefully, because it makes her look crazy.

Is this typical for waywards, to be super nice and accommodating after being the most hateful person in the world just this morning?

Sorry for the long pointless rant, but I had to get this out there. I was feeling strong and honorable all day until she texted me and acted like she is such a great person for being willing to give up everything for the sake of not hurting me. Now I have to be sad and angry for a while until I am able to build myself back up again.

Question:

Since we had our little 3 month false recovery and she openly resumed the affair again, should I re-expose to everyone that I exposed to the first time, to let them know what is going on?

Also, since she somewhat tried to end the affair over the past 3 months before giving up on the marriage again, does it mean we are finished? She thinks since we tried to save the marriage the past 3 months and she didnt fall head over heels in love with me during that time, that it means we are incompatible and her and OM are meant to be with eachother.
Or does this exact same thing happen a lot in marriages that have successfully recovered?

What does Dr. Harley say in the book? If you look there, you can find your answer.

Try to not talk about divorce at all. Tell her that is what lawyers are for. Change the subject.

Do not re-finance or do anything other than get your own bank account without talking to legal counsel. (Have you taken care of this yet?)
*If you do re-finance she will be off the hook entirely... don't do this to yourself*

And yes, WW or WH dream of civil divorces to make it easier on their conscience. It is part of the fantasy.

They will swing to mad to happy just to see which tactic works to get what they want.
And of course she is depressed. She is having an affair. If she doesn't stop, she may never recover.

It wouldn't hurt to at least tell close friends and family again about what is going on now. She is going to try to spin this as we tried and they need to know she never stopped having her affair.

It's crazy how civil she is being. Her big plan is to get an apartment from her job, which would be free, and continue to have a joint account so she can help me pay for house and bills and stuff. I guess she is just so focused on having her own place to stay so her and OM can be together in peace like newlyweds or something.

I tested her earlier and said I would be moving out in a couple days so she can stay here and be able to bring kids to daycare and everything else. She reminded me that the kids will freak out if they dont see me everyday. Like its my fault if i hurt the kids by moving out. She also said she will probably just sell the house if I don't stay here. I told her I can't afford the house by myself. That was when she reminded me she was still going to help pay the mortgage and bills. I said "I appreciate that, but that won't last long before OM talks you out of it." She said "this has nothing to do with OM." I just replied "ok" and left it at that. But I'm guessing anything that I do to ruin her apartment idea will soon have her worked into a rage.

Would it be better to go ahead and move out, since that will put a strain on the affair by making it harder for her to get an apartment? And it will also make it harder to justify to her family why she wants an apartment so badly, whenever I am gone and she could easily stay at her house? I know it is always advised for a BH to never leave his house, but in this case it woukd be much better for her if I do stay. And her apartment will be free. So she will be under no extra financial strain. At least if I do leave she will have to pay the mortgage by herself until she can sell the house. And it will be hard for OM to live here since all the neighbors know of the affair, and her sister lives a few houses down the road and brings her kids over a lot to swim. At the apartment, her and OM would never be bothered by anyone.

She also wants me to keep the kids at home most of the time and she will just come visit them or keep them at the apartment on nights that OM is working. Since she will be too ashamed to have the 5 year old at the apartment while OM is there. OM works shift work. So he only works 2 nights at a time and then is off a few nights. So at least if I leave, she will be forced to keep the kids a whole week at a time.

The lawyer already told me a few months ago that I won't be able to take the house. I have more money in my 401k than equity in the house. And she is entitled to half the 401k.

It makes sense to me to go ahead and move out. Does anyone else see any reason why I shouldn't move it?

At this point- if I were you- i would write Dr Harley.

My bet is he would tell you not to leave because it gives you grounds to have main custody of the kids and your kids need one sane parent while the other is off being a wayward.
(Trust us, you don't want a wayward caring for your kids!!!!)

Ask your lawyer to go full bore against your W. Show how she left, she wanted you to be the care taker- and ask for full custody.
Keep your mind on what would be best for your kids/ etc and not on making it harder. You can sell the house after the divorce- stay put!

But again, ask Dr Harley.

Here Men Don't Leave your Home

I guess you are both right. I'm probably just more focused on trying to prevent her and OM from living together, than I am on what's best for kids or me

Today she is almost manic. Running around singing and playing, but still being mean and grouchy to me. I don't know what is coming, but she is about to try to hurt me in some kind of way. I have a feeling that the offer to stay in the house and have her give me money for bills is probably out the window by now.

I guess I will tell her that the guy I was moving in with, has to put it on hold a little while. So I can try to stay here and finish out my 2 months left of plan A.

Please remind me. Are you paying for anything that is allowing to continue her affair? Do yours and her parents and families know she is still in the affair? Have you confronted the OM?

What are you doing in your Plan A?

Yes Brainhurts. I exposed to everyone a few months ago and confronted OM, but he hid and told his sister to lie and say he wasn't home. So I called and he blocked my number and finally I emailed him and he responded that he wasn't perusing her anymore.
I went down the checklist with WW and reluctantly got a good bit of transparency.
But OM kept trying to show up at places where he knew WW would be, while I was at work. So she resisted the temptation a while, but started complaining more and more that I was controlling her. Finally, after 4 months of Plan A, she did like Sue in the book and waited for me to log into her account and threw a fit and said she was leaving. I then found out she had resumed contact a week prior to that.

She has been staying with her mom the past 8 days. Her mom is a great enabler. But I have been doing a flawless plan A since she left. I exposed to one new friend we made after the original exposurr, and that had her feeling bad for about 2 days.

She is supposed to be getting an apt. tomorrow, but she called a few minutes ago and said she may stay at home in the spare bed tonight. .

I thought you were going to move with the kids?

Trying to move but cant afford it unless she comes with me and continues to work. My job is supposed to transfer me but everytime the date comes near, something happens and they postpone it. But I can't figure out how I will pay for an apartment and daycare for kids and all that, unless I have a job making the same or more than I do now.

My plan is that if she comes back after this most recent seperation, I will tell her that the condition for coming home is that we have to move away. Do you think this will work, or she will probably just say, "oh well, it isn't going to work then."?

What do you say when a wayward asks why you exposed? I said, "Because I am doing whatever I can to end the affair and save our marriage." But is their a better response?

That is good.
I will not share you with another man.

There's no room for OM in our marriage.

I recently exposed to 2 new people who missed the original exposure, and reexposed to some of the people who didn't speak with WW the first time. Today she found out about the new exposure somehow. She just came home yelling and saying I am making myself look like an idiot. She said everyone thinks I am crazy and doesn't want me around our kids. And that I am just being hateful. And the classic, "I was trying to be nice and was thinking about trying to save the marriage again, but now I am going to the lawyer tomorrow first thing.

She is more angry this time than she was during the original exposure, so maybe it will have more of an effect this time.

I know she is saying the typical wayward things, but I can't help but think, what if people do think I am being crazy? Right now she is at her sisters, and I am certain her sister is agreeing with everything she says. I know I am doing the right thing, but I still feel bad like everyone is probably talking about how I should stop being crazy and just let go.

I'll be glad when all this is over. Hopefully it's with my family intact, and not with me alone and with a reputation for being psycho.

Tell me again if I am doing this right:

She blew up over the recent exposure number 2, yelled and cursed and went to stay at her sisters. She just texted a few minutes again and seems to have calmed down. She texted "you just have to accept that we aren't good together. You deserve better and will be better off. I know it hurts and is scary, but you will be happier. You will see".

So I told her "I am not stopping you from anything. We can make a marriage that is greater than either of us can imagine, but you have to stop the affair or it will never work. "

She said some more about the only thing stopping her from getting the divorce is that she can't afford it right now. So I didn't respond to anything else. I was thinking of just waiting a little longer and texting her "Good night. I love you."

Did I handle that correctly? We've had this same conversation before, but it's scary when she is acting calm like this.

Exposure speeds up the ending of the affair, but it is also a huge lovebuster and you want to avoid lovebusters in plan A. That is why you should only expose once and to all key targets at the same time, trickle exposure shpuld be avoided. Since you already have been in contact with Dr. Harley, it is best to ask his advice on your strategy.

Have you contacted Dr. Harley again?

You should only expose once. Finding minor players here and there after the initial exposure isn't going to have the same effect. If you have gotten to the point that you can no longer continue Plan A (it seems you may be looking for other things you can do to end the affair, perhaps because you're at your wit's end), it may be time to go into Plan B.

She's right on one thing, though. You will be happier. She can either wake up and share that happy life with you or you'll use the knowledge and tools you have acquired to create a happy life with someone else.

It appears the exposure backfired. I heard WW say on the VAR that the new person I exposed to was on my side, but when he found out I exposed to the second person he changed his perspective. Now they both think I am doing this to drag WW thru the mud and they said their loyalty lies with keeping WW and her children safe. Oh well.

Hopefully WW is still embarrassed and thinking twice about having a successful relationship with OM. I heard her explaining it all to OM and saying she feels bad that people are thinking I'm crazy. They were talking about custody and she told OM that I am a great father and much better parent than her. He got mad that she spoke positively of me and they started arguing. She said she will maintain that I am a great father until the day she dies.

The unfortunate reality is that exposure is simultaneously your best tool and your only tool to end the affair. Once you've completed that step (you have), there is nothing more that you can do but wait for the affair to end. During the wait you continue to engage in Plan A, but when you can no longer continue, you go into Plan B. That quote right up there is why you will be the one she goes back to when the affair ends.

I listened to some more on the VAR. She continued to say that she feels bad for people seeing me as crazy and that I am the nicest person she knows and that she has treated me terribly during our marriage. She said she also feels bad for treating me bad and also adding an affair on top of that. OM tried to tell her she did the right thing by getting out of the marriage, but she argued saying you don't have to try to justify my actions. It's ok for me to feel bad for hurting my husband and being a bad wife.

That all sounds good, but she still thinks the reason she treated me badly was because we weren't meant to be together. She thinks the fact that she treated me bad means she never really liked me. She doesn't realize she treated me bad because she was having an affair.

Let me just comment that marriages aren't saved by husbands persuading their wives to think differently. They are saved by husbands a) making an affair extremely unpleasant and b) winning their wives by filling their love banks. Afterward, the wife tends to think differently.

I was thinking back about the original exposure and the recent mini exposure and was wondering something: does the exposure still have some positive effect even if the people interpret it as the betrayed just trying to get revenge?
It sounds like that is what happened in my case, the majority of the people see WW as a victim. But she ended up coming home to sleep in the spare room tonight. And she seems very depressed.

I assume even if people think I exposed because I wanted to hurt my wife's reputation, she still has to feel bad that the affair is out in the open. And she has to be thinking people will eventually see her as bad if she pursues a relationship with OM. And according to what she told OM on the VAR, it sounds like she thinks I exposed because I believed it to be the right thing to save our marriage. She told him she thinks I am desperate because it is close to the end, and I am just scrambling to try everything I can. So I assume it doesn't matter so much that people think I am crazy, as long as I got the affair out in the open and WW sees it as me trying to save our marriage.