Marriage Builders
I am in separation mode with a divorce that is heading for trial instead of settlement. I showed the attorneys the exposure letters and draft of the affair story and she advises me not to expose the affair because it will get me in trouble in court and court will interpret me as a scumbag and I will lose my case. It means losing kids, custody and probably unfavorable split on our 4 story multi-family house.

It will be taken on court as 3rd Party Contact leading to a restraining order against me and therefore affecting my child custody rights and will lose kids.

The senior lawyer informed the junior lawyer that I should not do it.

I tried to explain to the junior lawyer why I needed to expose - all reasons why exposure should be done. She also said why would you want to be with someone who has done all these very bad things. She suggested that I could write to the senior lawyer who will not be happy but may rewrite the letters and story for me.

Things just entered the ugly phase in divorce proceedings and we will all appear in court on Tuesday. My WS/STBX has lawyers who get money through trials and not settlements. They do not care about the well being of my WS and our family or any clients. They will milk every drop of wealth. My WS/STBX is in another world and pushing for this too. She does not see what they are doing and does not see that this will leave us poor. I think she wants to control and she is in spite mode. Kids and future grandchildren will be poor. Kids are about 10 and below.

What I know for sure is that I want to expose the affair that led to the demise of our marriage before the divorce is finalized.

WS/STBX and I are not allowed to talk as per the court order. Only text and emails concerning kids.

I am torn between what my lawyer told me and exposing to try to save the marriage. Any advice?
Many lawyers advise against exposure, but that doesn't make it the correct advice. You need the support of your family and friends.

Who have you already exposed to? Does her family know? Do her friends know? Have you told your friends and children about your wife's affair? Children often blame themselves for the divorce.

Have you followed the template in the Notable Posts section? Exposure isn't meant to be vindictive or to punish; exposure is to gain much-needed support in a time of crisis and to shine the light of day on the wayward.

Sorry for the reason you are here.
I have told my sister, and 3 friends. Her friends and family do not know. I have not told my children.

Here is what I have done to the template. Below is my draft exposure letter. 2 issues - should I make it not look like 3rd party contact and if yes how can I do so? I added more than what MB�s letter says in an effort to try to educate recipients that I am not being vindictive.

Dear friends and family,

I am writing you this message because you are an important person in the lives of Xxxx and I. As some of you know, Xxxxx has recently asked me for a separation/divorce, which has shattered my heart. To my shock, I am saddened to have discovered that the reason is because she had an affair with a coworker named xxxx xxxx who now resides in xxxx, foreign country 1 and also still lives in City1X(near xxxxx and xxxx), foreign country 2 near 1 in the pacific region. He is also married and has a young child. His wife was living in City1X(near xxxxx and xxxx), foreign country 2 while he was lIving in city2X, foreign country 2.The purpose of the separation is so that she can carry on her affair and other relationships without interference. She betrayed me with him in 2012/2013 when I reluctantly agreed that she goes to city2X to work with him for 7 months at xxxxx and this heavily affected our marriage for 3 years because she was lying and denying everything. 3.5 years on she finally admitted to it. She was in city2X, from xxx 2012 till xxx 2013 nearly 7 months while I was alone with very young kids aged 2 and 5, and at the same time I had a full time job in countryX in Europe

While she was living cityX, foreign country 2 OM also had picked her up by car early on a Saturday morning from her apartment in xxx to his place in xxx which is an hour away. He dropped her back at her apartment the following morning (Sunday) around 7am. She refuses to end the affair with him. I want our marriage to recover from this affair and what it has caused. If you have any influence on my wife, please do what you can to get her to stop this dangerous affair. I want to stay married, but the affair must end. I do love my wife.

For more about the story go to this link xxxxxxxxxxxx(still to come).

As our friends and family, I am asking that you use your influence with xxxx to persuade her to end her affair and try to work on our marriage. Our marriage can be salvaged if she would only end the affair. Please support her in doing the right thing. Please support our marriage. I love her.

I am working to make the marriage better than what it was before and put in practice things she has found objectionable in our marriage, all what she says I have done wrong. I am correcting that. I am doing my part to make that happen. I want more than a romantic relationship. A stronger marriage. I want us to be committed to each other and want us to be in love.

I do care about her in the most profound way and my motive for telling you is healing the marriage, not vengeance, not to hurt and or disrespect her. It is a terribly painful thing for me to do in my life. The focus is to support the kids and us.

While this may lead to unintended consequences of some people thinking I am humiliating myself, losing respect, or I am hurting her it is important to realize that these are not my goals. These kind of consequences are not long lasting. What is long lasting is our marriage, our kids and all our families and extended families. The bigger things and values. The actions are from values and not anger. Make no mistake on how much I love her.

I would so appreciate your support and prayers.

Warmest regards, I love her so much.

xxxx xxxxx
Originally Posted by WierdSituation
I have told my sister, and 3 friends. Her friends and family do not know. I have not told my children.

Here is what I have done to the template. Below is my draft exposure letter. 2 issues - should I make it not look like 3rd party contact and if yes how can I do so? I added more than what MB�s letter says in an effort to try to educate recipients that I am not being vindictive.

I would add the OM's name and contact information. Of course you should tell them about 3rd party contact, that is the whole point of exposure. I would DELETE the last few paragraphs because it is too long. People are not going to read a novel.

You need to stop being obsessed with "looking vindictive." You will be accused of being vindictive by some people no matter what. You can't avoid that.

Did you expose to the OM's wife and family? What about her employer? What about your children?

How long has the affair gone on? When did you find out? When did you separate?



Dear friends and family,

I am writing you this message because you are an important person in the lives of Xxxx and I. As some of you know, Xxxxx has recently asked me for a separation/divorce, which has shattered my heart. To my shock, I am saddened to have discovered that the reason is because she had an affair with a coworker named xxxx xxxx who now resides in xxxx, foreign country 1 and also still lives in City1X(near xxxxx and xxxx), foreign country 2 near 1 in the pacific region. He is also married and has a young child. His wife was living in City1X(near xxxxx and xxxx), foreign country 2 while he was lIving in city2X, foreign country 2.The purpose of the separation is so that she can carry on her affair and other relationships without interference. She betrayed me with him in 2012/2013 when I reluctantly agreed that she goes to city2X to work with him for 7 months at xxxxx and this heavily affected our marriage for 3 years because she was lying and denying everything. 3.5 years on she finally admitted to it. She was in city2X, from xxx 2012 till xxx 2013 nearly 7 months while I was alone with very young kids aged 2 and 5, and at the same time I had a full time job in countryX in Europe

While she was living cityX, foreign country 2 OM also had picked her up by car early on a Saturday morning from her apartment in xxx to his place in xxx which is an hour away. He dropped her back at her apartment the following morning (Sunday) around 7am. She refuses to end the affair with him. I want our marriage to recover from this affair and what it has caused. If you have any influence on my wife, please do what you can to get her to stop this dangerous affair. I want to stay married, but the affair must end. I do love my wife.

For more about the story go to this link xxxxxxxxxxxx(still to come).

As our friends and family, I am asking that you use your influence with xxxx to persuade her to end her affair and try to work on our marriage. Our marriage can be salvaged if she would only end the affair. Please support her in doing the right thing. Please support our marriage. I love her.

I am working to make the marriage better than what it was before and put in practice things she has found objectionable in our marriage, all what she says I have done wrong. I am correcting that. I am doing my part to make that happen. I want more than a romantic relationship. A stronger marriage. I want us to be committed to each other and want us to be in love.

I do care about her in the most profound way and my motive for telling you is healing the marriage, not vengeance, not to hurt and or disrespect her. It is a terribly painful thing for me to do in my life. The focus is to support the kids and us.

While this may lead to unintended consequences of some people thinking I am humiliating myself, losing respect, or I am hurting her it is important to realize that these are not my goals. These kind of consequences are not long lasting. What is long lasting is our marriage, our kids and all our families and extended families. The bigger things and values. The actions are from values and not anger. Make no mistake on how much I love her.

I would so appreciate your support and prayers.

Warmest regards, I love her so much.

xxxx xxxxx
[/quote]
Thank you so much. I added in Italics the sentence for OM� name and contact information and one sentence that says �A few days before I was served the papers she told me out of the blue that she wanted to find an Italian boyfriend.� Is this sentence needed? Does the letter look OK now?

OM�s wife and family do not know. My children do not know. The affair started when she left us and went to work Australia in November 2012 - to April 2013. They are still in touch. We are in NY now and she works at a different company. He is in New Zealand. The old employer in Australia does not know. None of her employers know.

I kind of suspected since she was always denying, lying and making up stories for the since she was there. I found out in around early April.

Currently I have TOR on me that says no harassment, menacing, disorderly conduct intimidation, coercion and physical stuff. It expires in mid March after 6 months. The TOR scares me because it is said to be the final. If I violate it I will get a restraining order. 3rd party contact maybe a violation. I am just wondering if I should wait to expose till mid March. On Tuesday the court may remove the TOR.

She did get this TOR this because she did not want me to see her mother who was visiting from a foreign country because I would talk to her and also wanted the mother to have more time with the kids since her parenting time is not much. My lawyer suggested that I pick the kids from school then. She refused because her mother would see the kids on Monday, Tuesday and Thursday only. The judge then said we have to exchange kids at the police precinct. We are both not happy about this. It was done to punish her.

On first court date in February she demanded to my lawyer that I should not talk to anyone except a lawyer and a therapist though it was not written on court papers. The reason being for her own PR. I did as instructed. After one week she moved kids and me into a tiny room with a tiny room(worse than a slum)in a 3 Bedroom ground floor apartment where the 2 bedrooms were occupied by 2 couples who rented month by month. Kids were on weekend visitation. The apartment had one electric stove plate.

I moved back into the neighborhood to be near the kids� school and it had been agreed in court that we will share kids into equal parenting time. Instead she proposed that I have the kids for three weekends(Friday evening to Monday morning when they return to school and every Wednesday evening till Thursday morning when they go to school, and that she has the kids one weekend in every four and Monday, Tuesday and Thursday nights. I accepted but wondered why she would not want to spend time with kids on weekends on a lovely summer.

She hardly sees the kids because of work. She comes home late and they are already sleeping or about to sleep.

Dear friends and family,

I am writing you this message because you are an important person in the lives of Xxxx and I. As some of you know, Xxxxx has recently asked me for a separation/divorce, which has shattered my heart. To my shock, I am saddened to have discovered that the reason is because she had an affair with a coworker named xxxx xxxx who now resides in xxxx, foreign country 1 and also still lives in City1X(near xxxxx and xxxx), foreign country 2 near 1 in the pacific region. He is also married and has a young child. His wife was living in City1X(near xxxxx and xxxx), foreign country 2 while he was lIving in city2X, foreign country 2.The purpose of the separation is so that she can carry on her affair and other relationships without interference. A few days before I was served the papers she told me out of the blue that she wanted to find an Italian boyfriend. She betrayed me with him in 2012/2013 when I reluctantly agreed that she goes to city2X to work with him for 7 months at xxxxx and this heavily affected our marriage for 3 years because she was lying and denying everything. 3.5 years on she finally admitted to it. She was in city2X, from xxx 2012 till xxx 2013 nearly 7 months while I was alone with very young kids aged 2 and 5, and at the same time I had a full time job in countryX in Europe

While she was living cityX, foreign country 2 OM also had picked her up by car early on a Saturday morning from her apartment in xxx to his place in xxx which is an hour away. He dropped her back at her apartment the following morning (Sunday) around 7am. She refuses to end the affair with him. I want our marriage to recover from this affair and what it has caused. If you have any influence on my wife, please do what you can to get her to stop this dangerous affair. I want to stay married, but the affair must end. I do love my wife.

For more about the story go to this link xxxxxxxxxxxx(still to come).

As our friends and family, I am asking that you use your influence with xxxx to persuade her to end her affair and try to work on our marriage. Our marriage can be salvaged if she would only end the affair. Please support her in doing the right thing. Please support our marriage. I love her.

The man is xxxx and his contact info is +x xxxx xxxxx xx(country here).
Since you have a court order against you, it might be better that you wait. This seems way too far advanced to effectively break up the affair. When did you separate? When did she file for divorce?
Originally Posted by WierdSituation
After one week she moved kids and me into a tiny room with a tiny room(worse than a slum)in a 3 Bedroom ground floor apartment where the 2 bedrooms were occupied by 2 couples who rented month by month. Kids were on weekend visitation. The apartment had one electric stove plate.

Does she support you?
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by WierdSituation
After one week she moved kids and me into a tiny room with a tiny room(worse than a slum)in a 3 Bedroom ground floor apartment where the 2 bedrooms were occupied by 2 couples who rented month by month. Kids were on weekend visitation. The apartment had one electric stove plate.

Does she support you?

No. She is not supporting me. She does not support me at the moment. She will likely have to do that after Tuesday(court)because my contract ended. We get rental income from the house and she has kept it away from me. She will have to support me with that and a little of her income.
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Since you have a court order against you, it might be better that you wait. This seems way too far advanced to effectively break up the affair. When did you separate? When did she file for divorce?

Yes. Good idea to wait. Thank you. We separated in February. She filed for divorce in February. The affair/denying/lying about her relationship and what she had with him led to the demise of the marriage. They are in touch though they are far away from each other and are keeping it simmering.
Originally Posted by WierdSituation
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Since you have a court order against you, it might be better that you wait. This seems way too far advanced to effectively break up the affair. When did you separate? When did she file for divorce?

Yes. Good idea to wait. Thank you. We separated in February. She filed for divorce in February. The affair/denying/lying about her relationship and what she had with him led to the demise of the marriage. They are in touch though they are far away from each other and are keeping it simmering.
But as soon as you are done with the court issues you must expose to the OM's BW.
Thank you BrainHurts.
For OM (and WS/WW) I think it will be good if I post to all their Linkedin contacts since this was work related affair and all the coworkers they had in Europe and Foreign country 2 will know. He only had 194 friends on Facebook(FB). They both do not use FB much.

Last time he was on FB was in 2014. I think these friends especially his are outdated. They are both very active on Linkedin. Maybe I could take their contacts� names and look for them in FB and send the letters or should I just send on Linkedin? Or should I post to Linkedin contacts?
Some background. My wife kicked me out last February. She did it through court order. It was a shock divorce. She took all the money. Left me with nothing. Took my personal and bank cards. She left me with a personal credit card only. The brother came to take the kids while the court people took me out. It was a shock. I lots weight. I could not eat. She is telling all her friends and relatives lies. I want to reveal all that has happened till now so they know the truth. Any advice? Has anyone done this? I have an appointment with with a psychiatrist for children's forensics on Wednesday. He has to decided who gets child custody. Any experience, ideas or advice on this?
Originally Posted by WierdSituation
I have an appointment with with a psychiatrist for children's forensics on Wednesday. He has to decided who gets child custody.
What does this mean?
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Originally Posted by WierdSituation
I have an appointment with with a psychiatrist for children's forensics on Wednesday. He has to decided who gets child custody.
What does this mean?

The judge appointed a psychiatrist to have separate sessions with her, kids, and me. He will hand over his evaluation to the judge after having looked at our parenting times, domestic violence, etc. He has to tell the judge who should get custody of kids. An attorney has been appointed for the kids.
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Originally Posted by WierdSituation
I have an appointment with with a psychiatrist for children's forensics on Wednesday. He has to decided who gets child custody.
What does this mean?

The mental health professional will interview us, any extended family members or persons affiliated with either party�s household addressing the following issues:

physical custody/parenting time
decision making
domestic violence
substance abuse
mental illness

He shall recommend which parent should ultimately have custody of the children and further make a recommendations as to the other specific issues to be addressed in the evaluation.
Was there domestic violence? Mental health? Substance abuse? In the marriage?
No. I suspect she has mental health issues but I am no way qualified to say she has.
People, I really want to expose the affair. Ha, the courts. I want to do it so badly.
I am wondering if you could share the aftermath after you exposed the affair.
...the soon after aftermath and the longterm aftermath.
What were the replies from people?
What did you say in response?
What did the OM or OW do? Any relationship?
What did your WW or WM do? What is your relationship now?
Your in-laws?
Threats?
Where are you now with relationships with all people you exposed to?
And anything please.

It would be good to hear your story. I am planning to exposing soon.
I do not know what to expect and I want to prepare for it.
Your sharing will help other people on the forum too.
Thank you.
This is a great question! My exposure is coming soon as well and I would love to hear other people's experiences.
I personally received zero replies from people I did not know. My in-laws were extremely supportive at first (until they gave up). My WW filed for divorce. My relationship with friends that I exposed to is great; we're closer now than ever before. They were a great support as I was going through the most difficult time of my life. As Dr. Harley says, exposure speeds up the inevitable. In my case, it resulted in a faster divorce. It saved me from years of heartache. I am now happily remarried, and I would have it no other way. I thank God for leading me to Marriage Builders and giving me the strength to expose against my instincts.

When I was going through it all, I did weeks of research. My own personal research showed that exposure was my best bet. Even on sites that discourage exposure, if you look at the ones who actually saved their marriages, in most of the cases, the affairs were exposed (sometimes unintentionally).
Originally Posted by Montgomery
This is a great question! My exposure is coming soon as well and I would love to hear other people's experiences.
I am following your updates. Looking forward to your exposure updates. Wishing you all the best.
Originally Posted by nmwb77
I personally received zero replies from people I did not know. My in-laws were extremely supportive at first (until they gave up). My WW filed for divorce. My relationship with friends that I exposed to is great; we're closer now than ever before. They were a great support as I was going through the most difficult time of my life. As Dr. Harley says, exposure speeds up the inevitable. In my case, it resulted in a faster divorce. It saved me from years of heartache. I am now happily remarried, and I would have it no other way. I thank God for leading me to Marriage Builders and giving me the strength to expose against my instincts.

When I was going through it all, I did weeks of research. My own personal research showed that exposure was my best bet. Even on sites that discourage exposure, if you look at the ones who actually saved their marriages, in most of the cases, the affairs were exposed (sometimes unintentionally).
Thank you very much. What do you think made the people you did not know reply? Not wanting to be involved, supported her or they thought it was just none of their business? What is the situation of your WW now? Any contact? Is she still with the OW/M? Do people still talk to you about it? Did any people outcast you? What do you do if comes up in conversations? Too many unknowns for me. Thanks again.
I think you need to provide more information about the nature of the court order against you. Is it is a restraining order? Is it a temporary ex parte 30-day order with a further hearing or a 1-year/permanent order? Etc etc.

It would be extremely unwise of you to contact anyone you are forbidden by the order to contact, even if for exposure, such as possibly your in-laws. Also consider that your attorneys are probably giving you the MOST cautious advice. They are trying to CYA, it's sort of their job.

In my situation, I exposed very quickly and my inlaws were split on supportive/not supportive. It's impossible to know for sure but the impression I get is that they did not apply much or any pressure on my ex-wife to do the right thing.

I didn't get many people directly responding to my FB message I sent out, other than someone in OMs family asking me not to contact them.

I confronted OM at his workplace as well.

I did receive a lot of support from friends and family and I do not regret for one second exposing and following a solid Plan A, even 2+ years out from the events.

You cannot know how people will respond in terms of what they say to your WW, and for those that do, you never know who will get through to her (if anyone).

Exposing will at best apply pressure to the affair and at worst help those close to you understand what is almost certainly the worst event of your life up to this point. You need that support right now, so at the least, if you are legally restrained from doing a wide exposure (we need more facts on your court order to advise further there), you should be certain to tell the truth about what has happened to YOUR family and friends.

Divorces are ugly things and people's natural tendency is to distance themselves from the facts of the situation because it makes them uncomfortable. Also most people still consider adultery to be reprehensible so it makes them uncomfortable imagining someone close to them being capable of it.

But these things happen and people who haven't been betrayed have no idea how painful of an experience that is. It is critical that you expose to whatever extent you are legally able to, for your own sake if not for your wife's.

If you're like a lot of BHs you're here with a lot of regrets about your marriage, maybe because you made mistakes and/or maybe because your WW is a bully who is gaslighting you. Usually there's both involved.

But this wasn't your idea, and it wasn't your choice. This is on her. You need to expose, you will feel so much better down the road having done it, because you will have stood your ground instead of wishing you could go back and correct the record.

FWIW court orders can be fought, and defeated. Been there, done that. But it depends on the details, so please explain more about your court order.
Originally Posted by WierdSituation
Thank you very much. What do you think made the people you did not know reply? Not wanting to be involved, supported her or they thought it was just none of their business? What is the situation of your WW now? Any contact? Is she still with the OW/M? Do people still talk to you about it? Did any people outcast you? What do you do if comes up in conversations? Too many unknowns for me. Thanks again.

I don't know why they didn't reply. I think they probably felt more loyalty to my ex or to her AP. Not necessarily that they supported them, but that they didn't want to offend their friend (which I was not). Mutual friends all sided with me, and she cut off contact with them, so they don't hear from her, either. I have absolutely no contact with my ex now. I don't even know where she is unless she's still with her AP. We did not have any children, so it was easy to cut off contact completely. I don't know if she is still with her AP or not, but I doubt it. Statistically they have probably broken up by now. If the affair comes up in conversations I just talk about it. It's not my shame. Two years out, it never comes up anymore, though.

I didn't know you had any legal orders that you were dealing with. Make sure you do not violate any court orders.
Originally Posted by axslinger85
I think you need to provide more information about the nature of the court order against you. Is it is a restraining order? Is it a temporary ex parte 30-day order with a further hearing or a 1-year/permanent order? Etc etc.

It would be extremely unwise of you to contact anyone you are forbidden by the order to contact, even if for exposure, such as possibly your in-laws. Also consider that your attorneys are probably giving you the MOST cautious advice. They are trying to CYA, it's sort of their job.

Thank you so much.

It is not a restraining order. It is called a 6 month Temporary Order of Protection that expires in mid March.

The Temporary Order of Protection stipulates that I refrain from assault, stalking, harassment, aggravated harassment, menacing, reckless endangerment, strangulation, criminal obstruction of breathing or circulation, disorderly conduct, criminal mischief, sexual abuse, sexual misconduct, forcible touching, intimidation, threats, identity theft, grand larceny, coercion or any criminal offense.

It does not say do not contact anyone. One of the lawyers in the office said that it is forbidden to not let anyone talk to anyone. Yes I can contact her friends her family. Last February the OW had asked my lawyer to tell me not to tell anyone. Now my lawyer says I can talk to anyone.

Unfortunately the OW applied for this order to get full child custody and therefore control.

My lawyers have warned me that 3rd party contact is not good. 3rd party contact means telling other people to tell her something / passing information through other people. This is what exposure does.
That said I really think I need to change these two sentences to some language that does not look like it is 3rd contact but that is 3rd party what I would like but I am not asking you to do so.

1. If you have any influence on my wife, please do what you can to get her to stop this dangerous affair.
2. As our friends and family, I am asking that you use your influence with xxxx to persuade her to end her affair and try to work on our marriage.
to
1. I am not allowed by court to ask you something like: If you have any influence on my wife, please do what you can to get her to stop this dangerous affair.
2. or as our friends and family, I am asking that you use your influence with xxxx to persuade her to end her affair and try to work on our marriage.
You cannot say I asked you to say that. Of course if you do it I would appreciate it.

The junior lawyer says now I am half a step ahead of OW in court and that exposure may get the judge angrier because he is already angry with OW and the case. She thinks exposure will throw my case away. Maybe I have 3 options 1. expose before expiry of order, 2. after expiration 3. after divorce settlement or 4. after signing the final papers. I prefer 2 because it is before divorce ends.
I don't know why they didn't reply. I think they probably felt more loyalty to my ex or to her AP. Not necessarily that they supported them, but that they didn't want to offend their friend (which I was not). Mutual friends all sided with me, and she cut off contact with them, so they don't hear from her, either. I have absolutely no contact with my ex now. I don't even know where she is unless she's still with her AP. We did not have any children, so it was easy to cut off contact completely. I don't know if she is still with her AP or not, but I doubt it. Statistically they have probably broken up by now. If the affair comes up in conversations I just talk about it. It's not my shame. Two years out, it never comes up anymore, though.

I didn't know you had any legal orders that you were dealing with. Make sure you do not violate any court orders. [/quote] Thank you for sharing. What an experience. You sound like you have completely recovered from it. On the post above I have just spelled out the legal part. I am not sure what to do.
In my jurisdiction (and I think most others) an order of protection and a restraining order are basically the same thing. Keeps one person away from another with the force of law.

I would not ask anyone to contact your WW in your exposure, because that could certainly be construed as harassment and create a paper trail (so to speak) she could use against you in court.

Legally, this could result in further OPs, it could absolutely harm your custody outcome, and it could possibly even harm how the judge awards property. I would consider the best possible custody arrangement more important than a strong plan A right now if I were you.

My $.02: Still expose but simply inform people of what is happening. There is no law against telling the truth. Do not ask them to contact your WW, do not contact anyone yourself whom you are forbidden to contact/harass by the OP. It sucks, but unfortunately an OP constrains what you can do somewhat.

Also, ask your lawyers about getting the OP thrown out. A 6 month OP should require some justification (usually a hearing) and if nothing has happened you may be able to request one. You make it sound as if there would be no grounds for such an order. There's nothing we should know about here, is there?
Originally Posted by axslinger85
In my situation, I exposed very quickly and my inlaws were split on supportive/not supportive. It's impossible to know for sure but the impression I get is that they did not apply much or any pressure on my ex-wife to do the right thing.

I didn't get many people directly responding to my FB message I sent out, other than someone in OMs family asking me not to contact them.

I confronted OM at his workplace as well.

I did receive a lot of support from friends and family and I do not regret for one second exposing and following a solid Plan A, even 2+ years out from the events.

You cannot know how people will respond in terms of what they say to your WW, and for those that do, you never know who will get through to her (if anyone).

Exposing will at best apply pressure to the affair and at worst help those close to you understand what is almost certainly the worst event of your life up to this point. You need that support right now, so at the least, if you are legally restrained from doing a wide exposure (we need more facts on your court order to advise further there), you should be certain to tell the truth about what has happened to YOUR family and friends.

Divorces are ugly things and people's natural tendency is to distance themselves from the facts of the situation because it makes them uncomfortable. Also most people still consider adultery to be reprehensible so it makes them uncomfortable imagining someone close to them being capable of it.

But these things happen and people who haven't been betrayed have no idea how painful of an experience that is. It is critical that you expose to whatever extent you are legally able to, for your own sake if not for your wife's.

If you're like a lot of BHs you're here with a lot of regrets about your marriage, maybe because you made mistakes and/or maybe because your WW is a bully who is gaslighting you. Usually there's both involved.

But this wasn't your idea, and it wasn't your choice. This is on her. You need to expose, you will feel so much better down the road having done it, because you will have stood your ground instead of wishing you could go back and correct the record.

FWIW court orders can be fought, and defeated. Been there, done that. But it depends on the details, so please explain more about your court order.
Thanks for sharing your story axslinger.

It must have been painful to be asked not contact the OM�s family. Some consequences of exposure seem to concern me.

What is the situation of your WW now?
Is she still with the OM?
Any contact?
What is your relationship with her like now?
Can you expound on the confrontation with OM? What did you?
Sorry to ask all this. I am nervous to expose.

I am thinking to expose to whatever extent I am legally able to as you advised. Unfortunately this will reach to people on my side and will not reach people on her side.

She is definitely gas lighting me. Of course I reacted poorly to denials and her lies during the last 3 years since she went to the foreign country where the A happened. I was not aware of MB. I could have done better. My reaction included resentment and feeling disrespected. The lies took a toll on me and the marriage(and her too I would think) which finally destroyed the marriage. So, yes it is both of us involved.
Originally Posted by WierdSituation
What is the situation of your WW now?
Is she still with the OM?
Any contact?
What is your relationship with her like now?
Can you expound on the confrontation with OM? What did you?
I just want to point out that you can research anyone's stories by clicking on their name, which is a link. Choose "Show User's Posts" from the menu that appears, and then "topics created" when the list of all their posts appears. You can usually work out which thread contains their story.

In addition, axslinger has a link in his signature, entitled "my story" (go back to his post, and look). If you click that, you will be taken straight to his main thread.

Originally Posted by axslinger85
In my jurisdiction (and I think most others) an order of protection and a restraining order are basically the same thing. Keeps one person away from another with the force of law.

I would not ask anyone to contact your WW in your exposure, because that could certainly be construed as harassment and create a paper trail (so to speak) she could use against you in court.

Legally, this could result in further OPs, it could absolutely harm your custody outcome, and it could possibly even harm how the judge awards property. I would consider the best possible custody arrangement more important than a strong plan A right now if I were you.

My $.02: Still expose but simply inform people of what is happening. There is no law against telling the truth. Do not ask them to contact your WW, do not contact anyone yourself whom you are forbidden to contact/harass by the OP. It sucks, but unfortunately an OP constrains what you can do somewhat.

Also, ask your lawyers about getting the OP thrown out. A 6 month OP should require some justification (usually a hearing) and if nothing has happened you may be able to request one. You make it sound as if there would be no grounds for such an order. There's nothing we should know about here, is there?
I am really grateful for your advice. I cannot explain how much this means to me. So helpful. And thanks for clarifying OPs and restraining orders. Yes there are the same.

I am not going to ask anyone to ask my WW. What you mentioned about paper trail and harming the custody outcome is exactly what my junior lawyer told me. Further OPs and judge�s reactions are of major concern also.

The current OP does not ask me not to contact anyone.

The lawyers are trying to get the OP thrown out. She applied for OP because her mom was visiting from a far foreign country and she wanted her mom to be with the kids. With the current kids sharing time her mom would have seen the kids only 3 afternoons per week. Instead of asking me for me that she wants her mom to se the kids she wanted to take the kids away through a frivolous motion. She made up accusations and she got the OP.

I agree.
1. I will consider the best possible custody arrangement than a string plan A

Would the letter be like this the?

You mentioned �Still expose but simply inform people of what is happening�. I am trying to understand this sentence especially the "Still expose" part. I am now confused. How should I expose? By letters, phone calls or by mouth? "simply inform what is happening = telling about the affair and the legal proceedings. If by letter would it be like this then?

Dear friends and family,

I am writing you this message because you are an important person in the lives of Xxxx and I. As some of you know, Xxxxx has recently asked me for a separation/divorce, which has shattered my heart. To my shock, I am saddened to have discovered that the reason is because she had an affair with a coworker named xxxx xxxx who now resides in xxxx, foreign country 1 and also still lives in City1X(near xxxxx and xxxx), foreign country 2 near 1 in the pacific region. He is also married and has a young child. His wife was living in City1X(near xxxxx and xxxx), foreign country 2 while he was lIving in city2X, foreign country 2.The purpose of the separation is so that she can carry on her affair and other relationships without interference. A few days before I was served the papers she told me out of the blue that she wanted to find an Italian boyfriend. She betrayed me with him in 2012/2013 when I reluctantly agreed that she goes to city2X to work with him for 7 months at xxxxx and this heavily affected our marriage for 3 years because she was lying and denying everything. 3.5 years on she finally admitted to it. She was in city2X, from xxx 2012 till xxx 2013 nearly 7 months while I was alone with very young kids aged 2 and 5, and at the same time I had a full time job in countryX in Europe

While she was living cityX, foreign country 2 OM also had picked her up by car early on a Saturday morning from her apartment in xxx to his place in xxx which is an hour away. He dropped her back at her apartment the following morning (Sunday) around 7am. She refuses to end the affair with him. I want our marriage to recover from this affair and what it has caused. If you have any influence on my wife, please do what you can to get her to stop this dangerous affair. I want to stay married, but the affair must end. I do love my wife.

For more about the story go to this link xxxxxxxxxxxx(still to come).

As our friends and family, I am asking that you use your influence with xxxx to persuade her to end her affair and try to work on our marriage. Our marriage can be salvaged if she would only end the affair. Please support her in doing the right thing. Please support our marriage. I love her.

The man is xxxx and his contact info is +x xxxx xxxxx xx(country here).
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Originally Posted by WierdSituation
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Since you have a court order against you, it might be better that you wait. This seems way too far advanced to effectively break up the affair. When did you separate? When did she file for divorce?

Yes. Good idea to wait. Thank you. We separated in February. She filed for divorce in February. The affair/denying/lying about her relationship and what she had with him led to the demise of the marriage. They are in touch though they are far away from each other and are keeping it simmering.
But as soon as you are done with the court issues you must expose to the OM's BW.
Thank you BrainHurts.
That is solid advice. My question is does �done with court issues� mean when a settlement is done or when you sign the divorce papers? Settlement is when you agree on child custody and splitting the assets. Signing the divorce papers means the case is done you are now divorced. I think I am correct regarding the definitions. Correct me if I am wrong. After which of the two should I expose?
Originally Posted by SugarCane
Originally Posted by WierdSituation
What is the situation of your WW now?
Is she still with the OM?
Any contact?
What is your relationship with her like now?
Can you expound on the confrontation with OM? What did you?
I just want to point out that you can research anyone's stories by clicking on their name, which is a link. Choose "Show User's Posts" from the menu that appears, and then "topics created" when the list of all their posts appears. You can usually work out which thread contains their story.

In addition, axslinger has a link in his signature, entitled "my story" (go back to his post, and look). If you click that, you will be taken straight to his main thread.

Thank you SugarCane.
Back in 2013 WW had told me that she was moving out her apartment and was going to stay at an apartment of her coworker's dad who was not in the apartment that time because he comes once to the city once in a while. WW had said she was having issues with the owner of the apartment she had been staying. She moved out 4 nights before her end of stay in the city where she working. She was coming back. Yesterday I called the coworker to ask if WW had stayed at her father's place. The coworker said she does not remember, she might have stayed. I asked if WW had stayed at her place instead and she said No. I asked again if she had stayed at her father's place and she said she does not remember. My guess is that WW did not stay at her father's place and instead stayed with the OM before she flew out. What do you make of coworker's reply and the whole think?
Oh my affair is getting exposed in court by the lawyers. It has already been exposed through a motion. The problem is now she will start telling her friends and OM before I expose it. Any ideas please?
Originally Posted by WierdSituation
Oh my affair is getting exposed in court by the lawyers. It has already been exposed through a motion. The problem is now she will start telling her friends and OM before I expose it. Any ideas please?
Don't you have a court order that keeps you from contacting her?
Have you written Dr. Harley?
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Originally Posted by WierdSituation
Oh my affair is getting exposed in court by the lawyers. It has already been exposed through a motion. The problem is now she will start telling her friends and OM before I expose it. Any ideas please?
Don't you have a court order that keeps you from contacting her?

Yes.

The lawyers brought it up in court. I did not contact her.
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Have you written Dr. Harley?

How does that work? Any email I can use? Thanks.
Originally Posted by WierdSituation
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Have you written Dr. Harley?

How does that work? Any email I can use? Thanks.

Start by sending an email that Joyce and Dr Harley will receive at

MBRadio@MarriageBuilders.com

WierdSituation:

The fact that you have a restraining order against you, and your lawyer is adamant that if you expose you could lose joint custody of your children and assets that would normally go to you after a divorce, I'd take your lawyer's advice. I don't know enough about your situation as I only have your side of the story. But from what I have read in this thread so far, I'm not sure that exposure at this time would save your marriage, and you risk losing joint custody and significant assets. After the divorce is over, exposure would no longer be a legal risk, and I would encourage you to do it then. You will have a chance to remarry if you don't date for about two years, and offer your help to your ex-wife as she struggles to make sense of what has just happened to her. She was expecting sole custody and plenty of child support plus additional assets, and when it never came through, and her affair partner isn't the help she thought he would be, she might come to her senses. By the, she would have nothing, not even her affair partner. You might then step in to save her from her huge mistake if you are still interested in saving your relationship with her.

Dr. Harley
Thank you very much.
Originally Posted by Dr. Harley
WierdSituation:

The fact that you have a restraining order against you, and your lawyer is adamant that if you expose you could lose joint custody of your children and assets that would normally go to you after a divorce, I'd take your lawyer's advice. I don't know enough about your situation as I only have your side of the story. But from what I have read in this thread so far, I'm not sure that exposure at this time would save your marriage, and you risk losing joint custody and significant assets. After the divorce is over, exposure would no longer be a legal risk, and I would encourage you to do it then. You will have a chance to remarry if you don't date for about two years, and offer your help to your ex-wife as she struggles to make sense of what has just happened to her. She was expecting sole custody and plenty of child support plus additional assets, and when it never came through, and her affair partner isn't the help she thought he would be, she might come to her senses. By the, she would have nothing, not even her affair partner. You might then step in to save her from her huge mistake if you are still interested in saving your relationship with her.

Dr. Harley
Dr. Harley, this is sound advice. I thought about it in the last couple of days and I decided to follow it. Thank you.
Hi All.

What should I do in the meantime? ENs?
Hello

How far and and wide is a far and and wide exposure? What are the limits?

Do you expose to friends and relatives of the spouse of the OW/OM?
My thinking is that the spouse may not put pressure on OW/OM and may try to hide it from other people. She may also have heard the OW/OM's story already before one exposes.

I have more questions and I will post them one by one as the thread progresses to get quality answers and avoid confusion.

Thank you.




Have you read this? It has all your answers in here.
Exposure 101
I have read your thread and have the feeling there is more to your story than you posted. Dr. Harley explicitly advised you not to expose until after the divorce. Is your divorce finalized?

Originally Posted by Dr. Harley
WierdSituation:

The fact that you have a restraining order against you, and your lawyer is adamant that if you expose you could lose joint custody of your children and assets that would normally go to you after a divorce, I'd take your lawyer's advice. I don't know enough about your situation as I only have your side of the story. But from what I have read in this thread so far, I'm not sure that exposure at this time would save your marriage, and you risk losing joint custody and significant assets. After the divorce is over, exposure would no longer be a legal risk, and I would encourage you to do it then. You will have a chance to remarry if you don't date for about two years, and offer your help to your ex-wife as she struggles to make sense of what has just happened to her. She was expecting sole custody and plenty of child support plus additional assets, and when it never came through, and her affair partner isn't the help she thought he would be, she might come to her senses. By the, she would have nothing, not even her affair partner. You might then step in to save her from her huge mistake if you are still interested in saving your relationship with her.

Dr. Harley
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Have you read this? It has all your answers in here.
Exposure 101

Yes, I have read it. I ask because I have seen in many posts that people have been advised to go beyond what is in the link?
Originally Posted by goody2shoes
I have read your thread and have the feeling there is more to your story than you posted. Dr. Harley explicitly advised you not to expose until after the divorce. Is your divorce finalized?

goody2shoes, the divorce is not finalized. I am preparing for exposure.
May you tell me what you think or suspect is needed to add. Or could you tell what makes you think so?

Threads merged. Please stick to one thread.
Originally Posted by Ariel
Threads merged. Please stick to one thread.

Thanks.
Originally Posted by WierdSituation
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Have you read this? It has all your answers in here.
Exposure 101

Yes, I have read it. I ask because I have seen in many posts that people have been advised to go beyond what is in the link?

Can you be specific?
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by WierdSituation
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Have you read this? It has all your answers in here.
Exposure 101

Yes, I have read it. I ask because I have seen in many posts that people have been advised to go beyond what is in the link?

Can you be specific?

I read who the exposure targets are supposed to be on exposure 101 link.
I feel my situation needs me to expand my exposure targets. I also have seen in some posts whereBH/BW had to widen their exposure targets specifically to friends and relatives of spouse of affair partner.

My WW�s friends are a click mostly in a country where clicks are the norm. These friends will support each other to death and this will deter their influence own her. They will also try to keep the affair a close guarded secret because they would not want other people to know. Because of this I was thinking of exposing to some friends of these friends and some friends of their husbands - maybe 2 friends of each friend on Facebook. That way the word can travel and will help shine the light on WW. It is a country where the word spreads fast. I do not want this affair to be under the wraps.

My WW has not allowed me to talk to her friends and family because she is afraid of shame and embarrassment on how she handled the divorce. What she did was very bad and violent. We do not live in that country but her aim will be to retire there I think and having people there know what happened will important. Should I do this?

I also thought that I should tell the friends' husbands first and then tell the friends about 5 hours later after they have heard from their husbands. This way they will be scared that one day she may sleep with their husbands. They will therefore look at holding her accountable for her affair and not trust her. Should I do this?

Concerning the spouse pf affair partner.. She may not want to tell her friends and relatives again because of embarrassment. I want the OM to feel the heat. I can do that by exposing to spouse� friends and relatives. Should I do this?

My WW has not added friends on FB since the divorce. She has friends on Linkedin whom I want to expose the affair to. Some of these friend are colleagues from workplace with OM. I can take their names and search on FB if they have accounts and expose. This way I avoid Linkedin for reasons associated with work/career damage for her or me. Should I do this?

Same with OM concerning Linkedin. Should I do this?

I also have time to plan since I have to wait for divorce to end. It is a pain to wait. The divorce may even take 2 more years. it has been one year and nothing has been achieved. No custody, financial and property. We are in one the largest cities in the US where divorce takes three years and even more to finalize. Who knows she may have another man at that time or will be with OM and relationships will have gone very deep. Because of this lengthy time I feel exposure may not be powerful. However I will still do it. I think the exposure will serve many good purposes. How do you deal with the pain to wait?
I am suspecting that WW is seeing someone else now with the other OM in a far away country. We are in separation mode. She goes out the nights I am with kids. I cannot hire a PI because I do not have money.
What should I do?
How can I find out?
Any investigative methods?
If she is seeing someone can it help in divorce and custody? I can inform my lawyers.
Thank you all.
Wierdsituation,

you have already exposed.
You already have a restraining order against you.
Further exposure to people, because you want to punish your WW is going to convince other people you are a creep and will not help bring your marriage together.
Further stalking with illegal methods will bring you only heartache.

If you cannot do plan A anymore, it is time to go to plan B.
You have to think of your sanity and of the children.

Dr Harley specifically advised against exposure in your case.
I have read your entire thread.

Stop your stalking behaviour, you have to take the high road here and help your children through this. They need a sane parent.
It is not worth it.
Rather become a better and more attractive version of you.
A version any woman would be happy to date.

Don't be so needy as to keep stalking her. You are giving her too much power in your mind.
Originally Posted by happyheart
Wierdsituation,

you have already exposed.
You already have a restraining order against you.
Further exposure to people, because you want to punish your WW is going to convince other people you are a creep and will not help bring your marriage together.
Further stalking with illegal methods will bring you only heartache.

If you cannot do plan A anymore, it is time to go to plan B.
You have to think of your sanity and of the children.

Dr Harley specifically advised against exposure in your case.
I have read your entire thread.

Stop your stalking behaviour, you have to take the high road here and help your children through this. They need a sane parent.
It is not worth it.
Rather become a better and more attractive version of you.
A version any woman would be happy to date.

Don't be so needy as to keep stalking her. You are giving her too much power in your mind.

Happy heart. I am not sure what makes you think I have exposed. All along I have seeking an advice on how to expose. I have not exposed and that is the reason I wrote to Dr. Harley and he said expose after divorce. That is when I will expose. I am just preparing to expose. For now Dr. has said do not do anything.

Temporary Order of Protection expires in a few hours.

I guess the question is what if she is seeing someone now who is not the original OM - what do I do?
Your situation is somewhat difficult.
Your wife moved out more than a year ago and you are divorced (if finalized).
Maybe you can talk to Dr H on the radio show to know how to best handle exposure in your situation.

Exposure is so effective because it shines the light of day on the affair. Most people will not oppose a relationship after there has been a divorce.
Did you have in-laws that were supportive of the marriage?
Given that she moved out a long time ago, you can take your time and ask Dr. Harley.
Originally Posted by happyheart
Your situation is somewhat difficult.
Your wife moved out more than a year ago and you are divorced (if finalized).
Maybe you can talk to Dr H on the radio show to know how to best handle exposure in your situation.

Exposure is so effective because it shines the light of day on the affair. Most people will not oppose a relationship after there has been a divorce.
Did you have in-laws that were supportive of the marriage?

Yes, it is difficult. Did you see Dr.'s reply in the thread? I will contact Dr. after the divorce is finalized or near finalization. It will take time - maybe 2 years more.The FIL was supportive. MIL is not mentally OK..
Originally Posted by happyheart
Given that she moved out a long time ago, you can take your time and ask Dr. Harley.

Yes, I agree. Thanks.
Originally Posted by happyheart
Wierdsituation,
You are giving her too much power in your mind.

Thank you so much. I have been giving her so much power in my mind. I am going to stop giving her so much power in my mind. High road has been always the route I have taken since the separation started and have been helping the children very well. All the lawyers have said she is not interested in the kids. This "woke" me up more than ever and I decided a long time ago to take the lead for my family in any ways I can. I do not know what her plans are. I am on my own and need to make sure the children are well loved and taken care of. If both parents go berserk then it is haywire.
Originally Posted by happyheart
Your situation is somewhat difficult.
Your wife moved out more than a year ago..
Not correct. She kicked me out through a blindsided method.
Hello all, after reading wifedivorcing and justthe3ofus I am going to try to save my marriage through MB. I will be posting looking for advice. Normal people do not know good advice.

The temporary order of protection has expired but we still have a divorce court date next month .. so I am still observing the order.

I also have feeling that wife filed for divorce because there maybe someone other than the overseas OM. From reading MB especially wifedivorcing and justthe3ofus's threads, her actions before and after serving me papers and even now fit exactly wayward profile. I have to say her affair with OM made me cause LBs during the marriage because I acted in such a way. It did not help. That was before I came across MB. What do I do next?
You need to find out who this new OM is. You might need the services of a private investigator, but it is worth the cost to know precisely what you are up against. You will then need to do an effective exposure of the affair(s).
Originally Posted by mrEureka
You need to find out who this new OM is. You might need the services of a private investigator, but it is worth the cost to know precisely what you are up against. You will then need to do an effective exposure of the affair(s).

Thank you mrEureka. That is the best and only way to go.
Originally Posted by WierdSituation
Originally Posted by mrEureka
You need to find out who this new OM is. You might need the services of a private investigator, but it is worth the cost to know precisely what you are up against. You will then need to do an effective exposure of the affair(s).

Thank you mrEureka. That is the best and only way to go.
Are you going to hire a PI?
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Originally Posted by WierdSituation
Originally Posted by mrEureka
You need to find out who this new OM is. You might need the services of a private investigator, but it is worth the cost to know precisely what you are up against. You will then need to do an effective exposure of the affair(s).

Thank you mrEureka. That is the best and only way to go.
Are you going to hire a PI?

I want to. Our devices may be taken for computer forensics because she has been accessing my Cloud content from her place - long story - maybe for another day. She can then see that I have been accessing MB so often and she will probably look to see if our story is here. Then if she finds the thread she can use it in court. I am scared! Not sure if I should say much now on thread.
I just found out that she rented our apartment twice when we went for a vacation overseas. We had gone for 1.5 months. I saw from reviews on her Airbnb profile. She rented it without telling me. I do not know where the money went. This happened in 2015 summer. It means she was preparing for divorce a long time ago. A lot of secrets keeping coming out. Should I show this to my lawyer and forensics psychiatrist who is doing child custody evaluation? Ha!
Originally Posted by WierdSituation
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Originally Posted by WierdSituation
Originally Posted by mrEureka
You need to find out who this new OM is. You might need the services of a private investigator, but it is worth the cost to know precisely what you are up against. You will then need to do an effective exposure of the affair(s).

Thank you mrEureka. That is the best and only way to go.
Are you going to hire a PI?

I want to. Our devices may be taken for computer forensics because she has been accessing my Cloud content from her place - long story - maybe for another day. She can then see that I have been accessing MB so often and she will probably look to see if our story is here. Then if she finds the thread she can use it in court. I am scared! Not sure if I should say much now on thread.

I will know towards the end of next month if the computer forensics will happen. It may not even happen.
Why do you think she removed me from her Linkedin profile?

She removed or blocked me from her Linkedin profile from around July till today. I am not sure why.

My thoughts:
1. I think she did not want me to prove to the court that she worked in the country where she had an affair. She left the employment on the paper she gave to court.

2. She also wanted to hide it to say she did not make money that year.

3. I also think she may have found another OM is on her Linkedin and may see me as connection on her Profile and would not like it.

Thank you.
Any advice on child custody evaluation forensics?
We are going through child custody evaluation with a forensics psychiatrist. I find it like torture because I always fell I left a lot of information when answering questions and as if I was not prepared enough.

Has anyone gone through this ordeal?
Have you changed your Cloud settings so she can't access it anymore?
Originally Posted by apples123
Have you changed your Cloud settings so she can't access it anymore?

Yes, I disconnected the computer she was using but after the court asked us not to delete any files on our devices. She can access the old files and even my case files.
They are images that were pouring into the cloud from Whatsapp group without me knowing. Someone had put my name in the group. The images are of all sorts and she has picked 4 images and videos out of hundreds of the them to try to paint picture of me that I am crazy and I am bad for kids. I never saw these images because I never opened them. In summary she is trying all sorts of ways to get me. When someone does this it is pretty scary especially when she knows I am not like the picture she wants to paint. This is the reason why my side wants to bring computer forensics. Spending money to counter lies gives me headaches. I hate it. It has made me broke..
I would personally make a short outline of your lives, preferrably with pictures. You lived alone with the children when thy were 2 and 5, so you may want to tell that as well (was this a time where you can proof beyond reasonable doubt that she was conducting an affair?).
Don't give the impression that you think she is a monster. You want to be seen as cooperative and doing everything so that the children will have a relationship with both parents.
Stress your own interest and ability to maintain a healthy and stable home environment. If she has to work you can offer to take the children.
Originally Posted by happyheart
I would personally make a short outline of your lives, preferrably with pictures. You lived alone with the children when thy were 2 and 5, so you may want to tell that as well (was this a time where you can proof beyond reasonable doubt that she was conducting an affair?).
Don't give the impression that you think she is a monster. You want to be seen as cooperative and doing everything so that the children will have a relationship with both parents.
Stress your own interest and ability to maintain a healthy and stable home environment. If she has to work you can offer to take the children.

Thank you happyheart. she admitted to the affair. Her lies summed it up also. She says they were going shopping for a friend with that friend. She said she went to his apartment with other people for 15 minutes only. She said she walked to her apartment from the city with an old lady from work. It is dangerous and too long a distance in wee wee hours. All these activities were in one day. It turns out that all was not true and she spent time with him in his apartment. There were many body signs that gave way including a knee jerk when I told her that she was cheating with him. The body signs are still livid in my mind and are so scary. I suffer from them. I do not have texts between them They made it hard to find evidence as the OM had infringed in our marriage before and I had emailed him not to. I also had told her not do that.

I will stress what you mentioned about forensics. Thank you once again.
What do you do with an Angry Wife?

My wife is very angry. The texts I get from her are crazy and show that.
As you know from the the court knows about the affair now. I am sure that has made her angrier. However she was still angry before this. We can only text or email about kids.

Is there a thread that says "What to do with an Angry Wife?" in the forum?

Like this one
What to do with an Angry Husband

I want to salvage this marriage.
What do I do?
What do I do when she writes angry texts?
What kind of texts should I write to her to make this marriage salvageable?
What else can I do to make it salvageable?
Any tactics/suggestions on applying ENs and avoid LBers, do POJA(this one if applicable)when you are separated and can only email or text about kids? Thank you.
Originally Posted by WierdSituation
What do you do with an Angry Wife?

You expose the affair and wait for it to die a natural death.
Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by WierdSituation
What do you do with an Angry Wife?

You expose the affair and wait for it to die a natural death.

Thank you so much. Your answer has given me so much energy and power for my life. I am getting out of bed! I amazed by you guys.
In your case, you stick to Dr Harley's advice.
Originally Posted by Dr. Harley
WierdSituation:

The fact that you have a restraining order against you, and your lawyer is adamant that if you expose you could lose joint custody of your children and assets that would normally go to you after a divorce, I'd take your lawyer's advice. I don't know enough about your situation as I only have your side of the story. But from what I have read in this thread so far, I'm not sure that exposure at this time would save your marriage, and you risk losing joint custody and significant assets. After the divorce is over, exposure would no longer be a legal risk, and I would encourage you to do it then. You will have a chance to remarry if you don't date for about two years, and offer your help to your ex-wife as she struggles to make sense of what has just happened to her. She was expecting sole custody and plenty of child support plus additional assets, and when it never came through, and her affair partner isn't the help she thought he would be, she might come to her senses. By the, she would have nothing, not even her affair partner. You might then step in to save her from her huge mistake if you are still interested in saving your relationship with her.

Dr. Harley
Originally Posted by goody2shoes
In your case, you stick to Dr Harley's advice.
Originally Posted by Dr. Harley
WierdSituation:

The fact that you have a restraining order against you, and your lawyer is adamant that if you expose you could lose joint custody of your children and assets that would normally go to you after a divorce, I'd take your lawyer's advice. I don't know enough about your situation as I only have your side of the story. But from what I have read in this thread so far, I'm not sure that exposure at this time would save your marriage, and you risk losing joint custody and significant assets. After the divorce is over, exposure would no longer be a legal risk, and I would encourage you to do it then. You will have a chance to remarry if you don't date for about two years, and offer your help to your ex-wife as she struggles to make sense of what has just happened to her. She was expecting sole custody and plenty of child support plus additional assets, and when it never came through, and her affair partner isn't the help she thought he would be, she might come to her senses. By the, she would have nothing, not even her affair partner. You might then step in to save her from her huge mistake if you are still interested in saving your relationship with her.

Dr. Harley

Thank you. The urge is too much. I will stick to the advice though. Patience. It reminds me of Yoda and Skywalker.
Weird Situation, you need to find something to do to occupy your time so you don't blow up your plan. You need to wait to expose until after the divorce is final. Turn over any crazy texts from WW to your attorney. You are not going to be able to POJA or meet her ENs.

The courts have effectively put you in Plan B. Continue that for now and find a hobby.
Originally Posted by WierdSituation
Thank you. The urge is too much. I will stick to the advice though. Patience. It reminds me of Yoda and Skywalker.
The urge will get you in trouble. Find a distraction, go for a walk. Do you have hobbies?
Have you read this article?
How to Deal with a Quarrelsome and Nagging Wife
Originally Posted by apples123
Weird Situation, you need to find something to do to occupy your time so you don't blow up your plan. You need to wait to expose until after the divorce is final. Turn over any crazy texts from WW to your attorney. You are not going to be able to POJA or meet her ENs.

The courts have effectively put you in Plan B. Continue that for now and find a hobby.

Thank you apples123. I will focus on personal and financial success. Multiple income streams and career goals. I will forward the texts and email to the attorney. I am feeling like I cannot find a hobby. This divorce shock has thrown me down a waterfall. Confused what hobby it is I have if any. I will find a hobby.
Originally Posted by goody2shoes
Originally Posted by WierdSituation
Thank you. The urge is too much. I will stick to the advice though. Patience. It reminds me of Yoda and Skywalker.
The urge will get you in trouble. Find a distraction, go for a walk. Do you have hobbies?

Thanks for putting me in a "straight line". Calm and patience I will be. I have seen how powerful and unforgiving urges can be. They totally lead to disaster. Hobbies - I like tennis, cycling. I feel I need more hobbies or at least more. Any suggestions on hobbies? I am thinking that I could learn how to swim well and sail.
Originally Posted by BrainHurts

Thank you BrainHurts. I read the article. It is very good and useful. I am armed with great knowledge. My wife never wanted to discuss and solve issues.
Originally Posted by happyheart
I would personally make a short outline of your lives, preferrably with pictures. You lived alone with the children when thy were 2 and 5, so you may want to tell that as well (was this a time where you can proof beyond reasonable doubt that she was conducting an affair?).
Don't give the impression that you think she is a monster. You want to be seen as cooperative and doing everything so that the children will have a relationship with both parents.
Stress your own interest and ability to maintain a healthy and stable home environment. If she has to work you can offer to take the children.

Yes this was the time.
What should I do?

Our S just told me WW's grandparents passed away in December.

I thought of writing an email to WW and pass it first to attorney and see what the attorney says.
Originally Posted by WierdSituation
What should I do?

Our S just told me WW's grandparents passed away in December.

I thought of writing an email to WW and pass it first to attorney and see what the attorney says.
Saying what?
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Originally Posted by WierdSituation
What should I do?

Our S just told me WW's grandparents passed away in December.

I thought of writing an email to WW and pass it first to attorney and see what the attorney says.
Saying what?

Saying "My condolences. I found out that grandparents passed away from our S. I am very sorry to hear that grandparents are no longer with us. They were great people to us. They will always be in mind. I loved them. I wish you and our families strength. "
Please remind me, are you allowed to contact her?
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Please remind me, are you allowed to contact her?

We are allowed to talk only about kids through text and email. She writes about other things but I have difficulty with that because it is not about kids. She can do that and not get in trouble.
She just wrote an email asking me to remove her name from our joint business bank account. She took money from it before serving me with divorce papers. She also has not disclosed to court the business credit cards she owned basically covering her trails. I passed the email to my attorney. Any other ideas?
Could you vets and child custody winners share what makes someone a winner? How did you win custody?

I met with the child custody forensics psychiatrist and he asked me to write concerns I have about her not getting custody. He said I can bring evidence if I want. I will only write the truth and all what she has done, and bring evidence and let him be the judge. I certainly do not want her to get custody for many legitimate reasons that have nothing to do with being vindictive but only for the kids. This is my chance. I have to submit this in a few days.
Update:

I do not understand. She stopped child custody forensics evaluation saying that there is no money for the child custody evaluation to continue. She did this by informing the forensics psychiatrist who then informed all the attorneys and the judge. He said he will pause the evalaution because he cannot continue without get paid. She is the one who pushed for it even though the judge said ask her not to.

Puzzling. Is she cutting her losses? What do you make of this?
Originally Posted by WierdSituation
Update:

I do not understand. She stopped child custody forensics evaluation saying that there is no money for the child custody evaluation to continue. She did this by informing the forensics psychiatrist who then informed all the attorneys and the judge. He said he will pause the evalaution because he cannot continue without get paid. She is the one who pushed for it even though the judge said ask her not to.

Puzzling. Is she cutting her losses? What do you make of this?
Assuming a rational cause, I suspect she has concluded that the evaluation is not likely to gain the advantage for her that she once expected. I doubt she views it as cutting losses. Rather, she views this as redeploying her limited resources. She intends to continue fighting for the best deal she can get.
[/quote]Assuming a rational cause, I suspect she has concluded that the evaluation is not likely to gain the advantage for her that she once expected. I doubt she views it as cutting losses. Rather, she views this as redeploying her limited resources. She intends to continue fighting for the best deal she can get. [/quote]

Thank you mrEureka. This keeps me on guard.
It does sound as though the initial question from ML was on target: Did/does your WW support you financially?

Many of your posts indicate that you are not financially supporting yourself. Don't worry about looking for fulfilling hobbies if you don't currently have gainful employment.

A husband not diligent in providing financial support for his wife and children, while the wife works full time, regardless of other circumstances in the marriage/children, is a HUGE LB (love buster) for any wife.

This could be the #1 thing you need to fix in your life, from the sound of what you have posted, reading your whole thread.

From a family court's standpoint, determining income/financial responsibility is weighed considerably as part of a parent's competency in custody and visitation rulings.

Originally Posted by TheLongRun
It does sound as though the initial question from ML was on target: Did/does your WW support you financially?

Many of your posts indicate that you are not financially supporting yourself. Don't worry about looking for fulfilling hobbies if you don't currently have gainful employment.

A husband not diligent in providing financial support for his wife and children, while the wife works full time, regardless of other circumstances in the marriage/children, is a HUGE LB (love buster) for any wife.

This could be the #1 thing you need to fix in your life, from the sound of what you have posted, reading your whole thread.

From a family court's standpoint, determining income/financial responsibility is weighed considerably as part of a parent's competency in custody and visitation rulings.

Thank you TheLongRun for the guidance. Your post builds my ambition. It is very helpful. It can only give me the drive. I am taking this as the #1 thing to fix. I am not going to worry about hobbies. All the time is focused on succeeding financially and with kids.

We supported each other. They were down moments job-wise for each of us. I can mention that she controlled our finances, never gave me a chance to do that, she is getting all the income from our multifamily house, and the lawyers and court have not done anything, I was a trailing spouse for her expat job, supported her for career growth and that I pay my fee for forensics but this does not help me grow. I do not want to be in the victim "mode." I want to succeed like you are saying.

I cannot say much or strategies as for now because I may ask for the thread to be taken down because the court is likely to take the devices for forensics and she has shown signs that she may have discovered this thread because this computer was setup with her password. The results from computer forensics will show that I am visiting this site.
Update:
She has violated custody order many times refusing to release the kids. She wants the kids when it is convenient for her. I filed police reports as per my lawyers' instructions. Her mom(MIL) was visiting from abroad and at one point WW refused to release our son to me on his graduation day when he was suppose to come with me according to court order. Mom left after one month without seeing the kids that much because of the current custody arrangement. Not sure what MIL thinks.

She performed drama in front of police refusing to take kids' school bags(with books and home work) while she and kids went to meet her friend was visiting from abroad ith her husband and kids. I guess she may have told her friend that she has custody of the kids and the friend would have been surprised that they have the bags when she was picking them up from me. She dragged the kids even when the police was saying she should let the kids take their bags. Police said she is being a diva, I should have married a man, blah. blah.

I do not know for how long I can take this drams. If it happens in the presence of police what will happen in the future?
Court ordered her to pay her part for the forensics to complete. She says she has no money. Her lawyers want to relieve themselves of their duties because she is not able to pay them.

I painted two rooms in the house we rent out. Kids told her this and she then went to change the locks saying by email that she was moving there because she could not afford rents. Turns out she was not moving. She just wanted to get tenants to get the money. She is a getting too much money from the house income.

I do not believe she does not have money.

Multiple times she asks for things from me that have already been delivered to her through her lawyer. Not sure why does this?
She has not shown me the school report cards. My nanny went to take kids on the last day of school. Instead WW went to pick up the kids and the report cards. She was not supposed to do that as it was my turn to take the kids from school as per court order. The nanny felt so uncomfortable.
My question: What do I do? How do you deal with such dysfunction? Even the lawyers cannot do anything they say. They say they cannot change her. She keeps getting away with all this. I am exhausted from all this. I want to straighten my family and its health. I fell so powerless when my family is getting destroyed by one person. The drama never ends. Kids are suffering. She is lying to kids too. Many times I just feel if she could be out of lives it would be better. Any advice?
Your lawyer needs to file a Motion for Contempt against her for violating the Court order.
Originally Posted by Brits_Brat
Your lawyer needs to file a Motion for Contempt against her for violating the Court order.
My lawyer is choosing a peaceful route. My lawyer wrote to the opposing lawyer mentioning all the events instead of filing a motion. The court here does not like motions. All this make her get away with many things.
I've been practicing law for 31 years in many jurisdictions and never once have I ever heard that a court doesn't like motions. AND if I remember correctly, you live in a state I'm licensed in.
Originally Posted by Brits_Brat
I've been practicing law for 31 years in many jurisdictions and never once have I ever heard that a court doesn't like motions. AND if I remember correctly, you live in a state I'm licensed in.

Thank you Brits_Brat. The judge does not like motions. OW has filed frivolous motions and the judge is very mad. He does not like her motion practice. He has warned us not to file motions and solve things with our lawyers because filing motions is expensive. Anyone(OW or me) who will file a motion will not look good to him. Hw wants the case done.
Originally Posted by WierdSituation
Court ordered her to pay her part for the forensics to complete. She says she has no money. Her lawyers want to relieve themselves of their duties because she is not able to pay them.

I painted two rooms in the house we rent out. Kids told her this and she then went to change the locks saying by email that she was moving there because she could not afford rents. Turns out she was not moving. She just wanted to get tenants to get the money. She is a getting too much money from the house income.

I do not believe she does not have money.

Multiple times she asks for things from me that have already been delivered to her through her lawyer. Not sure why does this?

OK. This is not fun. "Mistake". May get permanent TOP from her frivolous acts.

She moved to the floor above the ground floor instead. Kids inform me. She moved to the house that she had thrown me to and had said I should have kids because it is far from school. I moved back into the neighborhood and now she moved to the house.

I went to the house changed the locks she had changed for the ground floor (we use it for short term rentals. not her apartment) because I wanted to move to the ground floor and not pay exorbitant rent in the neighborhood I live. Kids had told me the 2 rooms had not been occupied and that only one tenant was in the 3rd room. In changing the locks I realized that one the 2 rooms had a tenant after the locksmith opened it. She had not told me that she had put a tenant. I wrote an apology not for the tenant and left my number. WW filed for TOP in the Family Court saying I broke into her apartment. She did not file it the Supreme Court where I was case is being handled. It not her apartment. She said I broke into her guest. It is a tenant. The apartments have separate entrances from the street.

We went to Family court and kids were removed from the TOP. my lawYers are trying to consolidate the case in one court. My lawyer say I am likely to get a permanent TOP even though the she got it frivolously because I went to the house. She also went to Family court because she knew the Supreme Court judge would not give it to her. Mind you she got the TOP in a frivolous way had expired in early this year.

Now: I may never be able to reveal the affair if I get a permanent OP which would last for 2 years. Revealing after 2 years may get me another OP. and maybe late for the affair.

Any advice or thoughts? How to proceed?
Originally Posted by WierdSituation
Originally Posted by Brits_Brat
I've been practicing law for 31 years in many jurisdictions and never once have I ever heard that a court doesn't like motions. AND if I remember correctly, you live in a state I'm licensed in.

Thank you Brits_Brat. The judge does not like motions. OW has filed frivolous motions and the judge is very mad. He does not like her motion practice. He has warned us not to file motions and solve things with our lawyers because filing motions is expensive. Anyone(OW or me) who will file a motion will not look good to him. Hw wants the case done.

Brits_Bats, the lawyers finally filed a motion today asking that the kids stay with me, that she gets supervised visitations based on many acts she has done including the frivolous -based TOP and alienating me from the kids. The lawyers said the judge will wait for the custody forensics first.
What is the best way to deal with friends or people who take the other(WW) side in a divorce?
Originally Posted by WierdSituation
What is the best way to deal with friends or people who take the other(WW) side in a divorce?


Cut them out of your life.
Originally Posted by living_well
Originally Posted by WierdSituation
What is the best way to deal with friends or people who take the other(WW) side in a divorce?


Cut them out of your life.
Thank you very much living_well. It is good to hear this because that is the path I was thinking but I was hesitant. I am game on. I am able to do this very well.
Update:

I cannot afford the divorce bills anymore. My lawyers just told me they will not be able to keep representing me because it's business and they need to pay their staff. They cannot wait for the judgement on the house to get paid. I do not know what to do.

OW's lawyer fired OW two months ago because she went to Family Court without telling her lawyer, judge and our Supreme Court where our case is being held. They gave an excuse that she was not able to pay. Both of us do not have lawyers anymore. I cannot trust that OW will not get another lawyer.
She just got a full time job. we both have jobs. For the last 13 months she has lied to both Family and Supreme Courts that she has not been working. I know she has been freelancing.

I know the companies. Lawyers had said there is nothing that can be done about it? Any ideas on what can be done to someone who is lying about working? Lying for child support and alimony. I was thinking these companies can be subpoenaed. is it ok to write to this companies saying what she is doing is not moral for the well-being of the kids.
Originally Posted by WierdSituation
She just got a full time job. we both have jobs. For the last 13 months she has lied to both Family and Supreme Courts that she has not been working. I know she has been freelancing.

I know the companies. Lawyers had said there is nothing that can be done about it? Any ideas on what can be done to someone who is lying about working? Lying for child support and alimony. I was thinking these companies can be subpoenaed. is it ok to write to this companies saying what she is doing is not moral for the well-being of the kids.
Is there anyway you can get another lawyer?
Originally Posted by WierdSituation
She just got a full time job. we both have jobs. For the last 13 months she has lied to both Family and Supreme Courts that she has not been working. I know she has been freelancing.

I know the companies. Lawyers had said there is nothing that can be done about it? Any ideas on what can be done to someone who is lying about working? Lying for child support and alimony. I was thinking these companies can be subpoenaed. is it ok to write to this companies saying what she is doing is not moral for the well-being of the kids.


Don't write to the company. That will just make you look crazy. But lying about income to collect child support and alimony is (in theory at least) fraud. You can subpoena the company for her 1099s but the judge will need to agree.
I am looking into these options:
1. cheaper lawyers - hard to pay them because I am negative
2. I heard from one person who went through divorce that if I have a lawyer and she does not have one the judge is going to think I have money to burn and she does not have and he will judge in her favor. Is this true?
3. Ask the court for a state(free) lawyer. I do not know if it is possible when we have a house and I am working.

I guess it is not advisable to present oneself. Right?
Originally Posted by living_well
Originally Posted by WierdSituation
She just got a full time job. we both have jobs. For the last 13 months she has lied to both Family and Supreme Courts that she has not been working. I know she has been freelancing.

I know the companies. Lawyers had said there is nothing that can be done about it? Any ideas on what can be done to someone who is lying about working? Lying for child support and alimony. I was thinking these companies can be subpoenaed. is it ok to write to this companies saying what she is doing is not moral for the well-being of the kids.


Don't write to the company. That will just make you look crazy. But lying about income to collect child support and alimony is (in theory at least) fraud. You can subpoena the company for her 1099s but the judge will need to agree.

Knowing her I believe she was paid under the table or had her brother/friend open a company. Definitely something unlawful.

I know you are in Ohio but don't remember where...contact Cleveland-Marshall College of Law, Case Western Reserve College of Law, Ohio State College of Law, etc. to see if their Legal Clinics will represent you. They are staffed by law students who are managed by practicing attorneys - these students will be more aggressive than any practicing attorney.
Originally Posted by Brits_Brat
I know you are in Ohio but don't remember where...contact Cleveland-Marshall College of Law, Case Western Reserve College of Law, Ohio State College of Law, etc. to see if their Legal Clinics will represent you. They are staffed by law students who are managed by practicing attorneys - these students will be more aggressive than any practicing attorney.

Sorry Brits_Brat. I just saw this posting. I am in NYC.
The child custody forensics evaluation will be sent to the court before Wednesday. We are appearing in court this Wednesday. Oh, trying to figure out about how to get legal aid. It looks like I will go to court without a lawyer. I am thinking to tell the judge that I need to find a lawyer before he makes any conclusion concerning the custody evaluation. The judge does not know that I do not have a lawyer because of financial reasons yet.

I am keeping my fingers crossed. I am very scared on what the outcome of the evaluation would be.

Last week WW's closest friend accepted my FB friend request that I had sent many years ago when WW and I were married. It is strange because she never accepted the friend request all these years and I am trying to figure out why she did this. WW is still connected to me on FB.

WW violated child custody again last week. I will explain the circumstances to the police and see if I they will take a police report.

WW has taken two floors in our house(duplex). On the lower floor she has put our daughter and a stranger(tenant). Our son is afraid to sleep down there. I am thinking that having a tenant in the same apartment she is living with kids deserves I file a motion.

Any thoughts on all the above? Thank you.

Originally Posted by WierdSituation
The child custody forensics evaluation will be sent to the court before Wednesday. We are appearing in court this Wednesday. Oh, trying to figure out about how to get legal aid. It looks like I will go to court without a lawyer. I am thinking to tell the judge that I need to find a lawyer before he makes any conclusion concerning the custody evaluation. The judge does not know that I do not have a lawyer because of financial reasons yet.

I am keeping my fingers crossed. I am very scared on what the outcome of the evaluation would be.

Last week WW's closest friend accepted my FB friend request that I had sent many years ago when WW and I were married. It is strange because she never accepted the friend request all these years and I am trying to figure out why she did this. WW is still connected to me on FB.

WW violated child custody again last week. I will explain the circumstances to the police and see if I they will take a police report.

WW has taken two floors in our house(duplex). On the lower floor she has put our daughter and a stranger(tenant). Our son is afraid to sleep down there. I am thinking that having a tenant in the same apartment she is living with kids deserves I file a motion.

Any thoughts on all the above? Thank you.

Hi WS,

I only have experience of forensic custody assessments in South Africa, but here it is normal for both parents to be involved in the assessment process and you can also contest the choice of assessor or their findings if you think they are biased. Normally, a copy of the report should be available to both parties before you go to court. Were you involved in the assessment? Was the assessor selected by the court or by your wife? Can you choose your own assessor for a counter-report?

"Violating" child custody is not normally a criminal offence unless the child is abducted, harmed or exposed to risk, so I don't think a police report is appropriate.

If you want to tackle these issues properly and recieve relevant information about the options that are available to you, you do really need to get a lawyer.


Originally Posted by chalkncheese
Hi WS,

I only have experience of forensic custody assessments in South Africa, but here it is normal for both parents to be involved in the assessment process and you can also contest the choice of assessor or their findings if you think they are biased. Normally, a copy of the report should be available to both parties before you go to court. Were you involved in the assessment? Was the assessor selected by the court or by your wife? Can you choose your own assessor for a counter-report?

"Violating" child custody is not normally a criminal offence unless the child is abducted, harmed or exposed to risk, so I don't think a police report is appropriate.

If you want to tackle these issues properly and recieve relevant information about the options that are available to you, you do really need to get a lawyer.

Thank you chalkcheese. Yes, I was involved in the assessment. The child custody forensic psychiatrist (assessor) was appointed by our lawyers at the time. I am not sure if I can get an assessor for a counter-report. True, child custody violation is not criminal. It can help win custody in court if one keeps repeating the violation. Maybe lawyers here can chime in. I filed a police report after talking with the police who advised me to file one. It is the ninth report I have filed on WW's custody violation. WW's actions are making me sick. As much as I do not want to file reports against my wife I still have to file. I will try to tell the judge that I need to find a lawyer before he makes any judgement.
Update:
Forensics evaluation report is out. I have not read it all. We are not allowed to reveal the results to the outside world. Its recommendations look balanced though. I will fight the lies in it. I will read it all at my lawyer's office and then counter it.

Lawyer issue: What do you think she is doing this for?
2 months ago the judge gave us 10 days to find lawyers. I went with a lawyer and she did not show up with one. Judge was mad. Next court date will at the end of next month to see if she will bring a lawyer. This means we have wasted 3 months because she has not engaged a lawyer. Though she is not forced to have one the judge has advise that without a lawyer she will be at a disadvantage. I wanted this case is over.It has been 2 years and 2 months.
Mental illness: Any thoughts and ideas? Our lives have been destroyed because of this.
Children� lawyer and my lawyer assert that she has a mental illness though not extreme. While I did not know it was mental illness during the time I have known I had thought it was just character flaw. This is painful to hear and I do not know how to deal with it. I am feeling sorry for her. I wish I had known during our relationship. My lawyer said one needs factual information like illness history, history of medication to prove in court. My lawyer says we should discuss if we should ask for diagnosis.

I was also thinking that I should talk to her parents and brother about this but I cannot while the case is going on. My lawyer has said the judge is just having the order of protection stay in place just to avoid conflicts till the case is settled.

PI: How do you find a good PI? Also one who lives in the neighborhood or near.
PI lost track of her when she got out of the train. I was very upset because it was a very key day I had been waiting for to get information. I am thinking that I should find a new PI. PI are expensive and I am trying to see how can I go about this.

GPS tracker:
How can someone do operation investigation when you are separated?
How can I put a car GPS tracker on her car? What can be done? No access to phone, computer. She has a car. The car is not registered in my name. Could I put aGPS Spot trace on her car? What part of the car is good to put it? It looks like it has to be outside on the bottom.

What do you suggest? More than 2 years and the case has not gone in anyway. How do you move on? Howdy you figure out the future? What do you do on the dating topic? I have not dated anyone. I see MB says do not date till the divorce is over. This case may even go for 4 years. From what I have seen on MB It looks like most cases are done under 2 years giving people a chance to figure out their future. What if she even dating another person already?
I am wondering why no one responded. I think it is because I posted 3 posts in a row. I am posting them one at a time now.

Update:
Forensics evaluation report is out. I have not read it all. We are not allowed to reveal the results to the outside world. Its recommendations look balanced though. I will fight the lies in it. I will read it all at my lawyer's office and then counter it.

Lawyer issue: What do you think she is doing this for?
2 months ago the judge gave us 10 days to find lawyers. I went with a lawyer and she did not show up with one. Judge was mad. Next court date will at the end of next month to see if she will bring a lawyer. This means we have wasted 3 months because she has not engaged a lawyer. Though she is not forced to have one the judge has advise that without a lawyer she will be at a disadvantage. I wanted this case is over.It has been 2 years and 2 months.
Hey, how are you doing generally? Eating, sleeping etc. I ask because your posts seem a bit scattergun and ADs/ending contact with the WS can help with stress.

Originally Posted by WierdSituation
What do you do on the dating topic? I have not dated anyone. I see MB says do not date till the divorce is over. This case may even go for 4 years. From what I have seen on MB It looks like most cases are done under 2 years giving people a chance to figure out their future. What if she even dating another person already?

Don't date! Fresh from my divorce I would not have dated someone who was still married. Don't go out there with the 'going through a stressful divorce' tag on you. Be dubious of anyone who is ok with that tag.

You said on another thread that you were going to expose her. Not exposing drags everything out. Throw a nuclear exposure at her and simultaneously push ahead on the legal stuff. She wont stand a chance. Focus on contacts who will support you personally too as I suspect you need it.
Your timeline (corect me if I'm wrong):

Wifes affair with coworker started in 2012
Feb 2016 - your wife filed for divorce and had you removed from your home by court order, emptied all bank accounts
2016 - both you and your wife were evaluated by a psychiatrist who will advise on custody - mental health issues are also evaluated
Jan 2017 - you had a restraining order against you that prevented you from contacting your wife, for anything other than texts ans e-mails about the kids
Jan 26 2017 - De Harley advises against immediate exposure an tells you to wait until the divorce is final
Sept 2017 - you changed the locks on a rented part of your house, wife filed for a TOP against you that might become a permanent OP,

Your situation is quite complicated and for me too complicated to respond to your latest questions. Your questions assume the posters on this forum understand your situation. Your complete story/timeline is not very clear to me and I read your posts again to try to get the facts. The feeling that I get from your postings is that you let your emotions get the better of you and that causes you not to act in your own interest (resulting in an order of protection against you).

You are not in plan A nor in plan B, you seem to be in an ugly plan D. Strategize to make the best of it.

Concerning mental health issues: is there something in the evaluation report that indicates mental illness or is there any other evidence of mental health problems?

Even though Dr. Harley explicitly advised you to wait with exposure until after finalizing the divorce, you seem obsessed with it (i am assuming you need a PI to gather evidence for exposure). Considering the order of protection against you, it seems wise to email Dr. Harley again for advice.

As long as you are married, don't date.
Thank you indiegirl. you are spot on. I am not doing well. I am stepping up on eating, sleeping. Planning for the future has been hard . A five hour commute everyday had not helped. I am thinking of finding another job where I can have time to execute my plans. What are ADs? WS and I are not in contact. I am going to avoid anything that triggers thoughts on her or makes it seem I know what is happening in her life.

Your post is already helping me. I have now made a concrete decision/ plan not to date while the divorce is going in.

The reason I ask is that here is someone who has unexpected triggered my feelings and I would say I am sure she has seen signs of them. She has recommended some recreational activities for me which I did. In my interactions with her I have applied MB principles. I have not gone out with her. She is on the vendor(consulting)side and on site at work four days a week. I see her everyday of these four days.

Could you suggest how to go about this - how to tell her in a way as to convey putting it off and suggesting after divorce is when I am ready at the same time not being classified in the "friend zone" if friend zone does not help with future pursuit? Would love to do things with her - maybe to know each more? Does friendship help create a future romantic relationship.

Do I say "I would like to share something that is happening in my personal life. I have been going through a divorce for more than two years. I decided not to date anyone while the divorce is going on which may take 1 or 2 more years. I am concentrating on creating good personal relationships, a future, healing, and removing the stressful divorce tag?

So true, not exposing the affair has really really killed me. I have grown impatient and have really failed to deal with this lack of patience. This is the elephant in the room. She has a frivolous temporary order of protection against me. Exposing now may get me a permanent order of protection. See reply to goody2shoes coming up after I post this. My former lawyer had said do not expose - I will lose everything. I have not asked my new lawyer. Dr. H has said do it after the divorce.

I also have to expose another 2 other "affairs". Not sure if anything sexual happened but everything in them is suscipicious. Not sure if they will be classified as affairs but they are things that one should not do.

Years ago while coming from work early around 4pm I found her and her ex boyfriend in front of our apartment putting our bikes back into the apartment. They had gone cycling together. He used my bike. Not sure what time he first came to the apartment or if they had sex. Early in the morning that her ex was visiting from Europe and she was going to meet him for coffee. I was so gaulible.

She also left for Puerto Rico with some girls I did not know. Right after she came back I saw a picture of two guys leaning on a car lying on our bed. I never asked her about it. Till today she does not know I saw this phito. She had packed her stuff on the bed. I came from outside the apartment and saw the pictures. She only told me about the trip the day before she left.

I also have to expose her stealing money from our accounts here and abroad and stashing it into the bank account of her brother and his wife. I am going to expose the brother and his wife too.

I am going to expose what she has done to the kids and me also including the extreme abuse during and after marriage. I will also have to the domestic violence her mother did on me.

In a nutshell there are many things to expose and I am trying to figure out how to be not handicapped by all these "waiting exposures" to move my life.
Thank you goody2shoes for the summarization, insights and recommendations.

Originally Posted by goody2shoes
Your timeline (corect me if I'm wrong):

Wifes affair with coworker started in 2012
Feb 2016 - your wife filed for divorce and had you removed from your home by court order, emptied all bank accounts
2016 - both you and your wife were evaluated by a psychiatrist who will advise on custody - mental health issues are also evaluated

The child custody forencis psychiatrist did point to mental illness. He recommends sharing the kids. Evaluation happened in 2017 and 2018. Results came two months ago.

Originally Posted by goody2shoes
Jan 2017 - you had a restraining order against you that prevented you from contacting your wife, for anything other than texts ans e-mails about the kids
Jan 26 2017 - De Harley advises against immediate exposure an tells you to wait until the divorce is final
Sept 2017 - you changed the locks on a rented part of your house, wife filed for a TOP against you that might become a permanent OP,

Your situation is quite complicated and for me too complicated to respond to your latest questions. Your questions assume the posters on this forum understand your situation. Your complete story/timeline is not very clear to me and I read your posts again to try to get the facts. The feeling that I get from your postings is that you let your emotions get the better of you and that causes you not to act in your own interest (resulting in an order of protection against you).

You are not in plan A nor in plan B, you seem to be in an ugly plan D. Strategize to make the best of it.

Concerning mental health issues: is there something in the evaluation report that indicates mental illness or is there any other evidence of mental health problems?

Even though Dr. Harley explicitly advised you to wait with exposure until after finalizing the divorce, you seem obsessed with it (i am assuming you need a PI to gather evidence for exposure). Considering the order of protection against you, it seems wise to email Dr. Harley again for advice.

As long as you are married, don't date.

The temporary order of protection - I cannot text, write or call her. Zero contact. She has gone o the police to report that I am not replying her texts, emails and calls. Police told her but you have a TOP agsinst me. They called me asking what is going on with her.

The TOP is frivolous in the sense that she is the one who changed the locks first saying she was moving into that apartment but had moved to an apartment above that. She also lied that I had broke into her apartment. She also lied that our son had soiled in his pants after seeing that I had broken into her apartment.

All has been proven wrong by the psychiatrist and the children's lawyer who have interviews the kids. Kids have been very honest. They have revealed that she has lied on many things. She also intentionally went to the Family Court(where it's criminal and civil cases) to get it without informing her lawyers, our judge in the Supreme court or my lawyers. For this reason she was fired by her lawyers.

You are so correct. The feelings got the best of me. I was tired that the lawyers and court were not doing anything about her actions and lying and with encouragement from friends I went and changed the locks. I should not have done it orvsourved advice from friends. My lawyer at that time told me exactly what you just said about feelings.

The fact that she kicked me out of the apartment we were renting that was two blocks from the school to our house that is far and said that I cannot see the kids while I am at the house because it is far, with my lawyer asking me to move back to the neighborhood near the school and now she moved to the house really upset and drove me into changing the locks to in order to move there and avoid astronomical school zone rent while she was leaving for free.

I felt played with like a toy. lesson learned: my lawyer said "let her do what she is doing and make mistakes. The court will get her. I should not do anything because she is doing this and that. Don't do anything without telling the lawyers"

Do you suggest that I start a new clean thread? I can.

PI is to check if there was another affair that led to divorce and what has happened, and if anything is going on before divorce and then expose. The main affair happened in Australia.

The evaluation does not point at mental illness. Her grandmother had and mother has mental illness but nothing I can provide as evidence. My lawyer said everything has to be factual in court - history of treatment, clinic attendance. He suggests we talk about subpoena to get her clinically diagnosed.

Even without anything factual I now know she has some mental illness. I thought it was just a character flaw. I did not know or want to accept but too many people who know her have told me this. The two lawyers finally sealed the confirmation by what they said even though it hurt me.

I will not date. Truly not difficult to implement. It is so unbelievable how people and friends all try force you with extreme confidence to starting dating.

Plan B seems appropriate. What do you think? After your answer - plan A, B or otherwise. I will strategize and layout action items for the plan and post to get feedback.

See advice from Dr. Harley below on next post. It seems to say act on Plan B and Plan A only if she reaches out. Could you help me make a plan please?

Advice from Dr. H
1. Jan last year:
Hi ...
Your lawyer may have concluded that your marriage is over, and you need to do everything in your power to maintain joint custody and preserve your assets.� If I knew more about your case, I might agree with your lawyer.� At this point, exposure might not really help you much. It's more valuable right after you find out about the affair.� After the divorce is over, and the custody and financial arrangements have been finalized, exposure of her affair would no longer be a threat to you, so I'd expose the affair then.� By then, your wife may have second thoughts about the affair especially when she loses the battle to take your children and all of your assets.� When she wakes up to realize that everyone now knows about the affair, and it didn't work out as she had hoped, you may have a chance to win her back again.� Don't date others for about two years after the divorce so that if she changes her mind, you will not be in an even more complicated situation.

Dr. Harley

2. Last November:
Hi ...

Your wife's order of protection gives you no choice but to stay silent.� If she reaches out to you, however, you should be in plan A, avoiding all Love Busters, and making your conversation with her as pleasant as possible.� If she were to divorce you, however, your best plan would be to avoid talking with her or seeing her for your own emotional protection.
3. January this year:
Hi ...

My general reaction to the information you have sent me now, and have sent me in the past, is that your wife isn't going to cooperate with you to develop a good marriage.� And she could get you into a lot of trouble if you try to force her to return to you.� As I have said in the past, you should follow the advice of your lawyer to get the best custody arrangement with the least child support.� There are just too many landmines in the path between you and her to� risk trying to reach out to her.

Dr. Harley

ADs are anti depressants. Get some.

.
Originally Posted by Dr Harley
I usually recommend that whether a spouse is in plan A or plan B, he or she ask a physician to prescribe anti-depressant medication to be taken throughout the crisis. This not only greatly reduces the suffering of the betrayed spouse, but it also helps keep a clear head at a time when patience and wise decisions are crucial. Anti-depressant medication does not numb the betrayed spouse to the crisis, it actually helps raise him or her above emotional reactions that would otherwise prevent clear-headed thinking. Why suffer and and make poor choices when anti-depressant medication can help ease your pain and improve your concentration in this time of unprecedented crisis?


Originally Posted by WierdSituation
The reason I ask is that here is someone who has unexpected triggered my feelings and I would say I am sure she has seen signs of them. She has recommended some recreational activities for me which I did. In my interactions with her I have applied MB principles. I have not gone out with her. She is on the vendor(consulting)side and on site at work four days a week. I see her everyday of these four days.

Could you suggest how to go about this - how to tell her in a way as to convey putting it off and suggesting after divorce is when I am ready at the same time not being classified in the "friend zone" if friend zone does not help with future pursuit? Would love to do things with her - maybe to know each more? Does friendship help create a future romantic relationship.
.

This is not someone you want to be in a future relationship with. She uses her job as a vendor to hit up still-married men? Men who are going though a crisis divorce and are clearly depressed and vulnerable? If you marry this woman in the future, then you're going to be dealing with another affair down the road.

Don't try to be her friend and don't try to navigate opposite sex friendships until you are both single and well.

Do the same thing with her that I did with my divorce vultures. Give her the deep freeze. Be professional but squelch any getting to know you bull. That's not her job, or yours.


Originally Posted by indiegirl
This is not someone you want to be in a future relationship with. She uses her job as a vendor to hit up still-married men? Men who are going though a crisis divorce and are clearly depressed and vulnerable? If you marry this woman in the future, then you're going to be dealing with another affair down the road.

Don't try to be her friend and don't try to navigate opposite sex friendships until you are both single and well.

Do the same thing with her that I did with my divorce vultures. Give her the deep freeze. Be professional but squelch any getting to know you bull. That's not her job, or yours.

Thank you indiegirl for the sound advice.

She has not tried to hit up on me. In fact I have not seen anything that has obviously suggested she is interested. I do not know if she is even interested. She is single. She may know what I am going through because when we first met she must have seen my ring which I do not wear anymore.

PI has had a hard time finding WS because he cannot figure out her daily/weekly pattern. She seem to be working per diem and different locations. She is all over the place hence hard to chase. So far he has not been able to nab her.

GPS Tracker: PI and I have been thinking of putting a GPS on her car but he says it is not legal. He says that GPS will show her pattern but he does not want to put it himself. He wants me to put it with his help. He suggests for a couple of weeks. Once he sees her pattern he can resume to follow her.
Any thought?
Any suggestions on spying?
How can you spy someone when you are separated?
Given that legally you're prevented from doing something as simple as exposing, I personally wouldn't take the risk of doing this which is dodgy as they come. This could spectacularly backfire.

You can't expose yet anyway, so just tell the PI to stand down. Revisit the situation when you have got your mind right. By then, who knows, her schedule may have settled or she may have exposed herself.

So tasks:
1) See a physician about anti depressants.
2) Do your best with eating and sleeping. Take naps and bites and build them up. Don't sleep on the couch. I will know.
3) Get some fun recreational things on the agenda. Every weekend. With MALE friends!
4) Time having fun with the kids
5) Don't dwell on this. Distract yourself with books and funny films.
6) Act for now like you're definitely going to get divorced. I'm not saying you will, I'm saying prepare for that.
7) Tell friends and family to chill. You have a self healing plan and none of it involves having your own mid-divorce affair.
Wow, indiegirl, you just gave me amazing advice and perfect plan.. It is very impressive. I will execute it.

I will drop GPS plans and ask PI to stop.

The only thing I may not do is taking ADs since the hardest part of depression is over. Talking with the physician may happen though.

I definitely need to better on 2 and 5.
3 is a new..
4 has been going really well. I can do better.
6 helps me in everything and execution of vision engineering for the future of my kids and I.
7 is a masterpiece advice - it just sealed the deal.

One last thing: I guess I will follow Plan A as described by Dr. Harley below. Right?
.. .
2. Last November:
Hi ...

Your wife's order of protection gives you no choice but to stay silent. If she reaches out to you, however, you should be in plan A, avoiding all Love Busters, and making your conversation with her as pleasant as possible. If she were to divorce you, however, your best plan would be to avoid talking with her or seeing her for your own emotional protection.
...

My lawyer says the judge is just letting the TOP stay till the case is settled (even though it expired 2 months ago) to avoid any conflicts while the case is going on.
Anti depressants may be needed temporarily to help with 2 and 5. Exercise is a good substitute.

As for continuing to plan A her...that comes with an emotional toll. I can't make that decision for you but unless 2 was achieved as a basic requirement I wouldn't attempt it. I wouldn't send a sleep deprived malnourished army into a war.

So focus on yourself first. If she does reach out, have a pleasant message prepared ' its so great to hear from you! Here's what the kids and I did this weekend! *attaches photo. And that's it. Don't knock your brains out.

At that point you could assess what effect contact with her has on you.
Originally Posted by WierdSituation
One last thing: I guess I will follow Plan A as described by Dr. Harley below. Right?
.. .
2. Last November:
Hi ...

Your wife's order of protection gives you no choice but to stay silent. If she reaches out to you, however, you should be in plan A, avoiding all Love Busters, and making your conversation with her as pleasant as possible. If she were to divorce you, however, your best plan would be to avoid talking with her or seeing her for your own emotional protection.
...
Only if she reaches out to you, then you follow plan A.
Quote
If she were to divorce you, however, your best plan would be to avoid talking with her or seeing her for your own emotional protection.
Goody, I meant to mention how useful your timeline was here. Thank goodness for your attention to detail or he'd be getting totally different advice.
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Anti depressants may be needed temporarily to help with 2 and 5. Exercise is a good substitute.

As for continuing to plan A her...that comes with an emotional toll. I can't make that decision for you but unless 2 was achieved as a basic requirement I wouldn't attempt it. I wouldn't send a sleep deprived malnourished army into a war.

So focus on yourself first. If she does reach out, have a pleasant message prepared ' its so great to hear from you! Here's what the kids and I did this weekend! *attaches photo. And that's it. Don't knock your brains out.

At that point you could assess what effect contact with her has on you.
2 and 5 in motion already. Funny movies are being effective. Exercising. Because of TOP I cannot respond to her. Responding to her is violating the TOO. It just looks like we will never talk to each again because the TOP will expire when the divorce is settled and Dr. H has advised not to talk to her after divorce.

Focusing on myself.
Originally Posted by goody2shoes
Only if she reaches out to you, then you follow plan A.
Responding to her is violating the TOP. She may use my response to get me in more trouble by the law. Dr. H advised not to talk to her if we get divorced. I really hate my situation.

What is awkward is that she went to try to report to the police that I was not responding to her.
Well if she wants your attention she will have to cancel the order.

I'm quite sure she expected you to ignore it and she could get you into trouble while getting attention, but that's not how this is going to go.

You're going to respect her wishes and she's going to get to enjoy both your respect and the boring result of her wishes.
You are spot on indiegirl. I do not know why I cannot see these things myself. When she got the first order of protection she violated it insanely. She had me go to her apartment many times to take care of the kids. She came into my apartment many times. We would be together in her home after the kids had gone to sleep. Hmmn.

My first lawyer told me that by getting TOP WS did not mean that she did not want to talk to me but she was just punishing me. I think my lawyer got this from WS' lawyer at the time or she may have figured it out herself. My lawyer was a woman hence using herself.

I can think of reasons she got the TOPs. Actually she wanted restraining orders.
1. The first frivolous TOP - she got it because her mom was visiting from abroad and parenting schedule would not have allowed her mom to see kids for very little time in a week and nothing in weekends. She might have lied to her parents that she had custody. She expected supervised visitation. That is when the judge to punish her by deciding to have custody exchange at the police precinct in the hope that she would not do anything silly again.
2. When she got the second frivolous TOP from the family court she thought the court would not allow me access to the children.
3. All to make her win custody, soousal support, child support and the house in court.
4. Her plan she had hatched by blindsiding me hoping to get everything had not worked.
I wouldn't even think about it if I were you. Her inconstancies and indecision are her problem.

Focus on yourself.
Originally Posted by indiegirl
I wouldn't even think about it if I were you. Her inconstancies and indecision are her problem.

Focus on yourself.
Thank you Indiegirl. Her activities have troubled me and taken so many resources from me. I am.getting to grips with your statement/advice and implementing it. I feel powerless that the law has not done anything about all this.

In addition to what we have discussed as part of the plan I am focusing on:
1. Figuring out my career direction
2. Figuring out ways for multiple income streams now that she left me bankrupt and I have massive loans for divorce fees. I am giving myself 2 weeks for 4 ideas.
3. Starting a core group of minimum 5 and maximum 10 successful male friends. As the saying goes - you are only as good as your friends.
4. Figuring out 2 core businesses
Originally Posted by WierdSituation
When she got the first order of protection she violated it insanely.

This tells me she has very poor impulse control. Which unfortunately is all too common and is one of the reasons so many marriages are poor and one of the reasons some people have so many fights. They make plans to never see or talk to someone again and then in the next breath they are engaging that person and fighting with them. They delude themselves into thinking they are on some sort of righteous crusade but actually they are just letting another person drive them nuts.
Originally Posted by markos
This tells me she has very poor impulse control. Which unfortunately is all too common and is one of the reasons so many marriages are poor and one of the reasons some people have so many fights. They make plans to never see or talk to someone again and then in the next breath they are engaging that person and fighting with them. They delude themselves into thinking they are on some sort of righteous crusade but actually they are just letting another person drive them nuts.

Wow, Bingo, Markos! This perfectly describes her and what our marriage was. Now after not talking to her for 1 year and 8 months I sometimes feel/think it is not right/worth it to ever talk to her again.
Hmn update:

I do not know what to make of all this. I am so confused and lost. We were in court.

1. Still she did not bring a lawyer. The judge was mad. She had been refusing to get a lawyer as advised by the judge.

2. Temporary Order of Protection Removed.
All of a sudden WW stopped pushing for the temporary order of protection to be extended. she always said she wanted it to be extended every time we were in court. It had expired in March but the court had not given the final. So when the children's lawyer was writing a court order with us WW said wanted me to respond to her emails. The lawyer asked if orders of protection have expired and WW said yes and wanted that to be written meaning she wanted them to be removed.

3. It looks like I have to email her first because I have to tell her what week I want vacation with kids. I am not sure how to write this since we have not talked or communicated for twenty months.

4. A big win for me. Time with kids is now equal. We agreed on a temporary 2-2-5-5 schedule. what this means is that it will be difficult for her to claim child support unless we have a large enough salary gap. My lawyer told me if she had a lawyer her lawyer would have explained this schedule to her and asked her not to agree. She thought she won because she finally got one more weekend. shifting from the schedule which she had proposed where I had them for three weekends to alternate weekends.

5. Our older son is allowed to go/walk alone to school from my place but not from her place because it is far. He is allowed to walk with friends or walk to a friend's place.

6. She was dramatic. My laywer was saying never talk to her again even if our kids have kids.

7. We will be back in court in a little more than two months.
Can you plan A her properly now? I guess she misses you!

Originally Posted by WierdSituation
6. She was dramatic. My laywer was saying never talk to her again even if our kids have kids.
.
rotflmao
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Can you plan A her properly now? I guess she misses you!

I am not sure. I am sorry for replying late. I was trying to come to terms with what happened in court.

My lawyer has said I should be careful with her, record everything when we exchange kids and email. The lawyer is afraid that she may put me in trouble again. Most of the time we will drop and pick up kids at school or camp unless there is a holiday where we will still do the exchange at the precinct.

I do not know if I should initiate any plan A actions. It would be easy if she starts reaching out.

She has written an email about the kids so far.
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Given that legally you're prevented from doing something as simple as exposing, I personally wouldn't take the risk of doing this which is dodgy as they come. This could spectacularly backfire.

You can't expose yet anyway, so just tell the PI to stand down. Revisit the situation when you have got your mind right. By then, who knows, her schedule may have settled or she may have exposed herself.

So tasks:
1) See a physician about anti depressants.
2) Do your best with eating and sleeping. Take naps and bites and build them up. Don't sleep on the couch. I will know.
3) Get some fun recreational things on the agenda. Every weekend. With MALE friends!
4) Time having fun with the kids
5) Don't dwell on this. Distract yourself with books and funny films.
6) Act for now like you're definitely going to get divorced. I'm not saying you will, I'm saying prepare for that.
7) Tell friends and family to chill. You have a self healing plan and none of it involves having your own mid-divorce affair.

How is the magnificent seven going? You can't plan A without being in good shape.

Does this mean you can expose now?
Quote
How is the magnificent seven going? You can't plan A without being in good shape.

Does this mean you can expose now?

1. I am exercising but need to do more. This is helping. Now that I have more weekend time cycling, swimming, running, athletic exercising, sauna, steam and a bit of freeweights and gymn are on the roll.
2. Sleeping and eating are not a problem and are at a scale of 90%.
3. This is really bad. I have to make new friends because divorce cut me off and many people do not have time.
4. Great. We do a lot of activities together outside home. I have to do more sports and board. games with them.
5. I am able not to dwell on it. Funny movies have been extremely helpful. I wish I had known about this a long time ago. Books: hmn, I have not read any.
6. Yes. Acting as if I am going to divorce.
7. This is magical. I am surprised by how many people respect this. My guess is that they are caught off guard by the statement. A friend asked someone for a blind date with me and I told him the numero 7 statement. He said he understood why I refused.

I cannot expose now because the divorce settlement on custody and financials is not done yet.
Originally Posted by WierdSituation
I cannot expose now because the divorce settlement on custody and financials is not done yet.

Ah yes, Dr H advised you to wait until those things were done didn't he? What kind of actions does your lawyer fear from her?

Just as a matter of interest, if you were the main character in your own story, how would you write the ending? Are you looking forward to getting for-real divorced and moving on? Or do you still hope for a reconciliation?

The reason I ask is because Dr H said not to date for two years post divorce to avoid complications if she were to return to you. I'm interested what point you're at; if that plan appeals to you.

Originally Posted by WierdSituation
1. I am exercising but need to do more. This is helping. Now that I have more weekend time cycling, swimming, running, athletic exercising, sauna, steam and a bit of freeweights and gymn are on the roll.
2. Sleeping and eating are not a problem and are at a scale of 90%.
3. This is really bad. I have to make new friends because divorce cut me off and many people do not have time.
4. Great. We do a lot of activities together outside home. I have to do more sports and board. games with them.
5. I am able not to dwell on it. Funny movies have been extremely helpful. I wish I had known about this a long time ago. Books: hmn, I have not read any.
6. Yes. Acting as if I am going to divorce.
7. This is magical. I am surprised by how many people respect this. My guess is that they are caught off guard by the statement. A friend asked someone for a blind date with me and I told him the numero 7 statement. He said he understood why I refused.

This is looking so good!

As for number three, what about volunteering? It is so hard to be mired down in your own stuff when helping others and it is a great way to meet people. If you combine it with a passion it's fun. Don't forget about stuff you can do solo, visiting new places and going to events.

Number 7 made me laugh, you just gotta be firm with people! Why don't you ask them to redirect their powers for good? Say "I cannot think of anything worse than dating but I am really suffering for things to put on my social calendar. Do you know any other guys who need a hangout partner/a good church group/book club/volunteer opportunities/would our friends be up for a monthly barbecue with all the kids?

You don't ask, you don't get.



Originally Posted by indiegirl
Ah yes, Dr H advised you to wait until those things were done didn't he? What kind of actions does your lawyer fear from her?

Just as a matter of interest, if you were the main character in your own story, how would you write the ending? Are you looking forward to getting for-real divorced and moving on? Or do you still hope for a reconciliation?

The reason I ask is because Dr H said not to date for two years post divorce to avoid complications if she were to return to you. I'm interested what point you're at; if that plan appeals to you.

Yes, he did. The two years are from the separation date. It is now two years and three months past that date. Here are his replies in course of one year.

Quote
�.
Your lawyer may have concluded that your marriage is over, and you need to do everything in your power to maintain joint custody and preserve your assets.� If I knew more about your case, I might agree with your lawyer.� At this point, exposure might not really help you much. It's more valuable right after you find out about the affair.� After the divorce is over, and the custody and financial arrangements have been finalized, exposure of her affair would no longer be a threat to you, so I'd expose the affair then.� By then, your wife may have second thoughts about the affair especially when she loses the battle to take your children and all of your assets.� When she wakes up to realize that everyone now knows about the affair, and it didn't work out as she had hoped, you may have a chance to win her back again.� Don't date others for about two years after the divorce so that if she changes her mind, you will not be in an even more complicated situation.

Dr. Harley

�.
I�d count the two years from the day you were separated, although if you see some softening in her relationship to you after two years, you might want to extend it for a few more months.

Dr. Harley


Your wife's order of protection gives you no choice but to stay silent.� If she reaches out to you, however, you should be in plan A, avoiding all Love Busters, and making your conversation with her as pleasant as possible.� If she were to divorce you, however, your best plan would be to avoid talking with her or seeing her for your own emotional protection.
Dr. Harley
�

Quote
�.
My general reaction to the information you have sent me now, and have sent me in the past, is that WW isn't going to cooperate with you to develop a good marriage.� And she could get you into a lot of trouble if you try to force her to return to you.� As I have said in the past, you should follow the advice of your lawyer to get the best custody arrangement with the least child support.� There are just too many landmines in the path between you and her to� risk trying to reach out to her.

Dr. Harley
But this last reply really confuses me. I do not know if he is saying I should give up and move on or I should not do anything till after settlement.

Originally Posted by indiegirl
What kind of actions does your lawyer fear from her?
I did not ask what actions my lawyer fear from her. He told me to go to a spy shop and buy a record device that is discreet and use it to record every meeting/exchange I will have with WW or her mother. I just assumed that he did not want me to get an restraining order, get me arrested or anything that may hinder getting custody and settlement . He told me not to call her and just to email only.

Originally Posted by indiegirl
This is looking so good!

As for number three, what about volunteering? It is so hard to be mired down in your own stuff when helping others and it is a great way to meet people. If you combine it with a passion it's fun. Don't forget about stuff you can do solo, visiting new places and going to events.

Number 7 made me laugh, you just gotta be firm with people! Why don't you ask them to redirect their powers for good? Say "I cannot think of anything worse than dating but I am really suffering for things to put on my social calendar. Do you know any other guys who need a hangout partner/a good church group/book club/volunteer opportunities/would our friends be up for a monthly barbecue with all the kids?

You don't ask, you don't get.
My commute is five hours a day and unbearable. I am thinking of changing jobs. This would give me more time to do other things such as volunteering and my own projects.

I never thought of the combination of volunteering and passion. It just gave me an experience of sudden and striking realization.

Great suggestions for number 7. I will apply them.

Originally Posted by indiegirl
Just as a matter of interest, if you were the main character in your own story, how would you write the ending? Are you looking forward to getting for-real divorced and moving on? Or do you still hope for a reconciliation?
Please give me one more day to answer this. The question hits to the bone marrow. It is very incisive and great. The mental illness that the lawyers mention... Her grandmother was like that. Her mum is like that. Her father has had a hard time living with her mum. In WW's words they do not love each other. They could have divorced if it was not for the reason that they did not want to set a bad example for their kids. When I knew she had done something and she was denying I got angry too. I suffered abuse from her.

Originally Posted by indiegirl
Just as a matter of interest, if you were the main character in your own story, how would you write the ending? Are you looking forward to getting for-real divorced and moving on? Or do you still hope for a reconciliation?

The ending of the story would be - Happy together again and ever after, with a strong, successful, and flourishing marriage and family.
I am still hoping for reconciliation.

The reason I delayed to answer is that
1. her actions are making her unattractive, We are trying to schedule a summer program for kids and she is making it impossible on every turn. She has been writing emails that are spinning my mind because they are so disagreeable for the sake of making things hard. One email came when I was wrting the last post.
2. slowly she had started fading in my mind and I think it is because of plan "B" we had for 1 year and 8 months. Fading means that I had not been thinking of her every minute as before.
Indiegirl. I spoke with my lawyer about exposing and he turned out to describe vividly two worst affairs one would ever imagine that his ex wife(WW) had. In the second affair while pregnant WW was already flirting and fell in love. The affair was discovered 5 months after birth. The affair also produced pregnancy during divorce and a marriage. He wants me to send him information about exposing an affair to be able to make a decision as to whether I should expose or not - why I should expose, how, etc.

I have come to realize that people never understand why an affair should be exposed even if you tell them. The inclination always is to say there is no benefit, you will be OK. He told me that many people go through this and I am not alone. He showed me piles of cases that he said that are worse than mine. He said you will be alright. But nothing swayed me. I still want to expose.

He mentioned that we could get away( from the judge) by asking someone to do expose. I thought of sending him this: https://forum.marriagebuilders.com//ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2566583

What package of information do you recommend I send the lawyer? Dr. Harley's email, exposure 101 thread.. I need to write a letter to him explaining why exposure is useful.
I do not know how to deal with this anymore...

WW has made friends with my new friends. I have next door neighbors and we have become good friends. Next door means the houses are attached. Their kids are in the same grades as my kids at same schools. Their kids come to my place to play, eat and see movies. I take all the kids out for movies, etc. The vice versa happens too.

WW took my neighbor's kids to the beach last Friday for the whole day. WW and kids' mom even made plans to take kids to the beach for the whole of the July 4th though the mom and kids ended up not going. WW ended up not taking our kids to the beach.

WW is a person who has cut me off from her family and friends. I am trying to make quality friends to start a new life. Now she infiltrates my new realationships. It is not that my neighbor did an effort to reach out. I guess my neighbors do not know what to do.

On another Saturday she had our son have a playdate at my neighbor's apartment. She came to pick him up. I am in my apartment and my son is next door on WW's custody time.

Has WW gone more mad?
Why is she doing all this?
Is this stalking?
Does she want to get information to use in court?
Should I be worried?

I am trying to have a life that has nothing to do with her. I have not approached my neighbors about this and I do not intend to.

These are extremely high quality friends and it takes an effort to make these kinds of relationships. How do I make this not happen again with new friends I will make in the future?
Wierd, I would tell your friends why you are separated from your wife. Let them know you are trying to build a new life without her. This is part of building your Plan B walls high enough that the wife can't get over them. Look how she sets you into turmoil and worry.
You need to let those people understand the dynamics and that she is detrimental to your mental health.

I know you want to keep reconciliation as an option but allowing her to play happy divorce won't help anyone.

Originally Posted by WierdSituation
. WW and kids' mom even made plans to take kids to the beach for the whole of the July 4th though the mom and kids ended up not going.

She's being pushy with them and they don't know why so they give polite dodges and no shows. If you let them know why she is targeting them they can give her a more direct freeze out.

As for your lawyer, he doesn't need convincing about exposure; he's an employee who needs to answer a straight question.

Being unable to expose her is subjecting you to stalking and harassment. All you need in answer to the question 'is there any remaining loophole preventing me from speaking the truth (and never mind why I want to)' - is a 'yes' or a 'no'.

True, most people keep quiet and suck it up but you're not most people.

Originally Posted by indiegirl
As for your lawyer, he doesn't need convincing about exposure; he's an employee who needs to answer a straight question.

Being unable to expose her is subjecting you to stalking and harassment. All you need in answer to the question 'is there any remaining loophole preventing me from speaking the truth (and never mind why I want to)' - is a 'yes' or a 'no'.

True, most people keep quiet and suck it up but you're not most people.
I asked my lawyer. His answer - "Yes, there is risk. Exposure for the sake of just exposure, could backfire. You never know how it affects a judge when considering your ability to co-parent. We can talk more about this."
Markos and indiegirl - thank you. I will tell my friends. I have not had a chance to meet them.
Originally Posted by WierdSituation
.


I asked my lawyer. His answer - "Yes, there is risk. Exposure for the sake of just exposure, could backfire. You never know how it affects a judge when considering your ability to co-parent. We can talk more about this."


Co-parent??!!

So, I am now wondering if you should sack him completely and get someone with some knowledge and experience of contentious divorce; and, you know, the logistics of parallel parenting. Co-parenting is a cute idea if you're in a made-for-television film shot during the 1990s for daytime viewing, but real life shouldn't be quite so vomit inducing.

If you want to stick with him:

- I'm not interested in hearing 'what you never know' as much as I am hearing actual legal facts. Namely, is my right to tell third parties the truth the same as everyone else's right? If not, why not?

If he doesn't give you any reason other than vague fears that people may not like it, then there isn't one.

- If I cannot protect myself from my wife's stalking and falsely insinuating herself in my social circles using the simplest method; intervention and seeking support with exposures, what methods are available?

- co-parenting is not an option under any circumstances. I will require a parallel parenting set up which seeks to protect me from harmful and abusive contact with my wife and which will minimise conflict.
Originally Posted by WierdSituation
[I asked my lawyer. His answer - "Yes, there is risk. Exposure for the sake of just exposure, could backfire. You never know how it affects a judge when considering your ability to co-parent. We can talk more about this."

This is not exposure for the sake of just exposure, though. You aren't doing it for funsies. Yes, there is risk to everything. That is called life. The last person I would ask would be a lawyer, who would prefer you never do anything. But it is not his ox getting gored here. You have no legitimate reason not to expose.
Originally Posted by WierdSituation
Originally Posted by indiegirl
As for your lawyer, he doesn't need convincing about exposure; he's an employee who needs to answer a straight question.

Being unable to expose her is subjecting you to stalking and harassment. All you need in answer to the question 'is there any remaining loophole preventing me from speaking the truth (and never mind why I want to)' - is a 'yes' or a 'no'.

True, most people keep quiet and suck it up but you're not most people.
I asked my lawyer. His answer - "Yes, there is risk. Exposure for the sake of just exposure, could backfire. You never know how it affects a judge when considering your ability to co-parent. We can talk more about this."

There is no ability to co-parent. If your wife could co-parent with you you would not need to get a divorce.
Originally Posted by indiegirl
- I'm not interested in hearing 'what you never know' as much as I am hearing actual legal facts. Namely, is my right to tell third parties the truth the same as everyone else's right? If not, why not?

- If I cannot protect myself from my wife's stalking and falsely insinuating herself in my social circles using the simplest method; intervention and seeking support with exposures, what methods are available?

- co-parenting is not an option under any circumstances. I will require a parallel parenting set up which seeks to protect me from harmful and abusive contact with my wife and which will minimise conflict.

Perfect!

I sent this to my lawyer. I am waiting for his reply.
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
This is not exposure for the sake of just exposure, though. You aren't doing it for funsies.
I sent this to the lawyer.

Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Yes, there is risk to everything. That is called life. The last person I would ask would be a lawyer, who would prefer you never do anything. But it is not his ox getting gored here. You have no legitimate reason not to expose.
This is very encouraging. The destruction has been going on forever. The system cannot stop it. The lawyers, judges, and everyone involved in the divorce is not stopping her. I have lost a lot. Kids have lost a lot.
Update from the lawyer:

"Understood and thanks for your feedback. Divorcing is hard and she is not of the compromising sort. I want you to compromise but not to the point of being pushed out of parenting. That is not fair or right for you or the kids. So, I am prepared to discuss motion practice but it must be organized and have a reasonable chance. If you cannot co-parent then so be it. So far, she has made it impossible. That puts us into a trial which is fine. We just need to be prepared with every document and factoid in chronological order for your anticipated testimony.

Also, if she interfering with your personal life, that too is a problem. But there is no such motion to prevent her friendships. The angle is parental alienation. Will explain when we speak."

He wants to speak. He is out of the country. We will speak when he gets back
Ok, so it sounds like there is no reason to not expose and managing your relationships (with the truth) is outside the remit of lawyers. So far, so standard.

It also sounds like he might now actually have to do something more involved than bleating 'play nice!' at you while you get pummelled by a bully.
Yes, the lawyer got the message. It looks like he wants to act. I was hesitant to send him your content thinking I was going to make him angry. I will wait to see how the conversation will go with him first.
Well, he's paid to do your bidding, not be your guru and he's vastly overstepped in his meddling by telling you how to parent and manage personal relationships. A bit of sternness won't go amiss at all; though I admit I wasn't expecting you to cut and paste my disbelief at his cheek exactly, it may be as well that you did!

Once he is a bit more aware of his place you can be as pleasant as you please, IF you decide to keep him on at all.
I started saying I do not mean to be forceful but the destruction has been massive, and the system and all professionals involved in the case have not helped stop it Bear with me....Then I did the copy and paste thing, and also mentioned that exposures will let everyone know, make her accountable and hopefully stop her behavior...

It is good he got the idea. I really believe exposures are the only things that will put her in check.

He has excellent experience with contentious cases.
OK. The lawyer said roll the dice and we will deal with it later. He means go ahead and expose, and we will deal with it later. It was hard for him to understand but I told him all what she has done has destroyed my family and I will tell the judge that. His main question was what will you tell the judge why you did that?
Originally Posted by WierdSituation
OK. The lawyer said roll the dice and we will deal with it later. He means go ahead and expose, and we will deal with it later. It was hard for him to understand but I told him all what she has done has destroyed my family and I will tell the judge that. His main question was what will you tell the judge why you did that?

"Because I needed support, Your Honor. There was no way I could bear this burden alone."

You could also tell the judge how she's tried to insinuate herself into the lives of your friends and that they needed to know.
I've never met a judge who seriously expects people to be secretive and participate in cover ups. Their whole lives are about drilling down to the rockbed of truth so their minds simply don't bend this way. (Strangely, many lawyers take the polar opposite approach and they expect everyone in the world to maintain 'client confidentiality' and they themselves are at the centre of most cover ups!)

I have been present at murder trials, where the murderer's lawyer has been very keen to point out that their client is quiet and non dramatic (instead of, you know, wearing a sandwich board which said 'murderer') and they seem personally dedicated to pointing the finger at anyone who had an assertive conflict within the vicinity of their client. One dreadful old hack, who had the victim's daughter on the stand dredged up 'and you told friends that the defendant was a dreadful boyfriend and a thief to boot. With such proof of your dislike, how can we call your testimony objective?'

The judge interrupted with: "If you wished for an objective witness, you should have sought one. We don't expect the victim's daughter to be objective about her boyfriends or the defendant in her father's murder; that is our job. You may expect her to be objective about the weather."

Of course there are terrible judges out there, but if your lawyer is constantly expecting one, the common denominator may be him.

How often do we hear of betrayed spouses here being told 'loose lips sink ships' but when it actually comes to court, no one cares? It's almost as though people of sense expect others to share their lives with people in their circle.

Pardon me for not being here for the last two days. It has been sinking in me that I am going to expose. I did not expect it to come early.

I like what the lawyer said "Lets roll the dice." It shows that he is prepared to defend.
Originally Posted by markos
"Because I needed support, Your Honor. There was no way I could bear this burden alone."

You could also tell the judge how she's tried to insinuate herself into the lives of your friends and that they needed to know.

Thank you markos. This is a great concise answer. I was struggling to come up with a good summary because there are too many things that she has done which will take forever to explain to the judge.
I did not expect it to happen earlier than expected. Now, I am feeling the fear of exposure.

I am thinking of exposing over this coming weekend because I will have the kids from Friday at 3pm till Wednesday morning.
It means she will drop them at the camp on Friday morning and she will pick them up on Wednesday after 3pm.
That means she will not see the kids for five days while feeling the exposure.
A very long time indeed.
I do not know how this will go.
At this point I expect her to do anything but I am ready to face the risks and I am not worried.

I also have the kids this Monday afternoon till Wednesday morning but I need more time to work on the exposure plan.
Could you please post any exposure techniques and tactics?

Since this affair is entrenched (It started in 2012/2013) the exposure will need all the techniques and tactics that can be used. I am going to start working on an exposure strategy / plan.
Where is Jedi_Knight?
I have not seen any new post from him in a very long time.
A call for Jedi_Knight.

He has some "GRASSROOTS", "NEVER DO IT AGAIN" and "OUT OF THE WILD WORLD" techniques and tactics for exposure that paralyze OMs (and WWs) to the core, and in an amazing and blitzkrieg fashion.
Any Kiwis and Aussies here who can help or have ideas?

OM is a Kiwi and an Aussie(not exactly sure if he has a passport but has lived in Australia forever and did his MBA in there. Australia became for the family many decades ago - Father, mother and brother. Brother lives in Sydney and is alcoholic).

Any exposure ideas and tactics that you suggest?
Or any ideas that can work in New Zealand and Australia context?
The affair is entrenched.

Any sites for exposing adulterers?
Any billboards to buy?
Any PIs that I can work with to torment him for 1 week e.g. put sticker on his car, office door, etc. or I can send to confront him and tell him to stop?
Any police I can send to confront him and tell him to stop?
Any police, organizations / people / groups / grassroots I can send to confront him and tell him to stop?
Any organizations / people / groups / sites that can help?
Any organizations / people who can volunteer:
- I can pay to call him
- make it difficult for him
- leave flyers on his home and office
- protest at his home or office.

I have the registration details of the company and the registered address I believe is his residence. This means it is easy to know addresses of neighbors. Flyers can be send, put in their mailboxes or taped on their gates on both streets in Lennox Head and Auckland.

OM and his family are living in Auckland, New Zealand.
He has a company now and works in New Zealand and Australia for his company clients.
They are 3 partners/workers.
OM is a serial adulterer.
Another Kiwi who worked with OM and WW in Germany once said to work colleagues in the presence of WW "How does OM's wife deal with this when OM sleeps with many women?" That was before OM and WW started the affair.


They have a house in Lennox Head, Australia.
OM's wife and son were living in Lennox Head when the affair was happening.
He was living and working in Sydney.
OM's wife was a stay home mom for a very long time.
She now works at a recruiting company in Auckland.
Son is about 14 years old.
He has contacts in Lennox Head, Byron Bay, Melbourne, Perth, Brisbane and Sydney. Good exposure geo targets.
Affair happened in Sydney Australia while they worked at a big bank.

Lennox Head has a small community.

I know the school, university in NZ and another one in Australia he went to.
I know a non profit he does give some marketing help.
He has given a small talk at a small organization in Auckland.
I have his Linkedin and Facebook contacts

I do not know where he hangs out - recreational club, bars, communities, etc.
Kiwis and Aussiies - in summary what would you do if you were the betrayed spouse and this had happened in Australia or New Zealand?
Originally Posted by WierdSituation
Any PIs that I can work with to torment him for 1 week e.g. put sticker on his car, office door, etc. or I can send to confront him and tell him to stop?
[..]
Any organizations / people who can volunteer:
- I can pay to call him
- make it difficult for him
- leave flyers on his home and office
- protest at his home or office.
Do you want to expose or do you want to harass?
I want to expose. I want him to stay away and never talk to her again.
Exposure only gives you control on how you out the truth. You cannot control OM.
Originally Posted by indiegirl
I've never met a judge who seriously expects people to be secretive and participate in cover ups. Their whole lives are about drilling down to the rockbed of truth so their minds simply don't bend this way. (Strangely, many lawyers take the polar opposite approach and they expect everyone in the world to maintain 'client confidentiality' and they themselves are at the centre of most cover ups!)

I have been present at murder trials, where the murderer's lawyer has been very keen to point out that their client is quiet and non dramatic (instead of, you know, wearing a sandwich board which said 'murderer') and they seem personally dedicated to pointing the finger at anyone who had an assertive conflict within the vicinity of their client. One dreadful old hack, who had the victim's daughter on the stand dredged up 'and you told friends that the defendant was a dreadful boyfriend and a thief to boot. With such proof of your dislike, how can we call your testimony objective?'

The judge interrupted with: "If you wished for an objective witness, you should have sought one. We don't expect the victim's daughter to be objective about her boyfriends or the defendant in her father's murder; that is our job. You may expect her to be objective about the weather."

Of course there are terrible judges out there, but if your lawyer is constantly expecting one, the common denominator may be him.

How often do we hear of betrayed spouses here being told 'loose lips sink ships' but when it actually comes to court, no one cares? It's almost as though people of sense expect others to share their lives with people in their circle.
Thank you indiegirl. This is helpful. Truth is one of the highest morale value. The judge knows that she is lying a lot as my former lawyer once told me. The children's lawyer knows too. The evaluator also proved that she was lying a lot in the motions as children did not agree with what she had written and said.

I will also say to the judge I cannot be secretive and participate in cover ups.
Originally Posted by goody2shoes
Exposure only gives you control on how you out the truth. You cannot control OM.
good2shoes: I have seen a lot of these actions(not exactly hiring the PI for it but the actions.) suggested and even acted upon by others on this forum. AN example Jedi_Knight has written some of this here. That is why I was thinking of them.
I have read suggestions on contacting services in Phillipines or other countries that one can pay to get calls made to OM. Does anyone have the name and contact info?
Originally Posted by WierdSituation
Any billboards to buy?
Any PIs that I can work with to torment him for 1 week e.g. put sticker on his car, office door, etc. or I can send to confront him and tell him to stop?
Any police I can send to confront him and tell him to stop?
Any police, organizations / people / groups / grassroots I can send to confront him and tell him to stop?
Any organizations / people / groups / sites that can help?
Any organizations / people who can volunteer:
- I can pay to call him
- make it difficult for him
- leave flyers on his home and office
- protest at his home or office.

I have the registration details of the company and the registered address I believe is his residence. This means it is easy to know addresses of neighbors. Flyers can be send, put in their mailboxes or taped on their gates on both streets in Lennox Head and Auckland.
Nothing you have read on this site tells you to do anything this extreme - unless it was written lightheartedly.

In your state, is it likely that the police would knock at someone's door and tell them to stop having an affair?

In your state, what is likely to happen to you if you pay people to "make it difficult for him"? In fact, what does this even mean?

Originally Posted by WierdSituation
I have read suggestions on contacting services in Phillipines or other countries that one can pay to get calls made to OM. Does anyone have the name and contact info?
You did not read that here.

All the sane, rational and legal information you need from Marriage Builders about how to expose was posted to you by BrainHurts, in the Exposure101 thread in the early section of this thread. If you've read about anything that wasn't in that thread, then it wasn't there for a reason - which is that we know which actions are legal and safe, but we cannot speak for the outcomes of extreme measures such as paying foreign strangers to make constant phone calls. We wouldn't even say that this is morally justifiable, much less legal. Isn't phone harassment against the law in your state?

Weren't you subject to a restraining order? Are you looking to get that changed into a custodial sentence?

For heaven's sake; dial it back, and do the exposure we recommend to family and friends on both sides, plus employers if the affair is workplace based.
Originally Posted by SugarCane
Originally Posted by WierdSituation
Any billboards to buy?
Any PIs that I can work with to torment him for 1 week e.g. put sticker on his car, office door, etc. or I can send to confront him and tell him to stop?
Any police I can send to confront him and tell him to stop?
Any police, organizations / people / groups / grassroots I can send to confront him and tell him to stop?
Any organizations / people / groups / sites that can help?
Any organizations / people who can volunteer:
- I can pay to call him
- make it difficult for him
- leave flyers on his home and office
- protest at his home or office.

I have the registration details of the company and the registered address I believe is his residence. This means it is easy to know addresses of neighbors. Flyers can be send, put in their mailboxes or taped on their gates on both streets in Lennox Head and Auckland.
Nothing you have read on this site tells you to do anything this extreme - unless it was written lightheartedly.

This is one example I had seen:
Jedi_Knight's advice on wifedivorcing thread is very interesting. I thought this was along the thought.
Originally Posted by Jedi_Knight
Also, if it's a mom and pop store I would consider even picketing in front of the store with a sign "This store employs adulterers" (with a friend always) (I'm a former union organizer and familiar with picketing to get a message across - business owners hate picketers)

Originally Posted by SugarCane
In your state, is it likely that the police would knock at someone's door and tell them to stop having an affair?

I thought it would make OM feel overwhelmed. OK, I understand what you are saying.

Originally Posted by SugarCane
In your state, what is likely to happen to you if you pay people to "make it difficult for him"? In fact, what does this even mean?
It means they just call him to say stop the affair and not contact WW ever.

Thanks for keeping me in check.
Wierd, just read and follow the exposure 101 thread. Don't get yourself arrested. Just tell people the truth and ask for their support.
Originally Posted by SugarCane
Originally Posted by WierdSituation
I have read suggestions on contacting services in Phillipines or other countries that one can pay to get calls made to OM. Does anyone have the name and contact info?
You did not read that here.

All the sane, rational and legal information you need from Marriage Builders about how to expose was posted to you by BrainHurts, in the Exposure101 thread in the early section of this thread. If you've read about anything that wasn't in that thread, then it wasn't there for a reason - which is that we know which actions are legal and safe, but we cannot speak for the outcomes of extreme measures such as paying foreign strangers to make constant phone calls. We wouldn't even say that this is morally justifiable, much less legal. Isn't phone harassment against the law in your state?

Weren't you subject to a restraining order? Are you looking to get that changed into a custodial sentence?

For heaven's sake; dial it back, and do the exposure we recommend to family and friends on both sides, plus employers if the affair is workplace based.
It was just one suggestion by one of the readers/writers on the forum in one thread. Anyways I will not do that.
The restraining order expired. I am no longer under a restraining order. Do you think they will give me another one if I expose?
I will dial it back.
Originally Posted by markos
Wierd, just read and follow the exposure 101 thread. Don't get yourself arrested. Just tell people the truth and ask for their support.
Thanks.
Originally Posted by WierdSituation
It was just one suggestion by one of the readers/writers on the forum in one thread. Anyways I will not do that.
The restraining order expired. I am no longer under a restraining order. Do you think they will give me another one if I expose?

If you hire people from out of the country to make harassing phone calls I imagine you are likely to end up in prison.
Yeah, the laws here in the UK would only allow one time contact between strangers, harassment is usually punishable. I imagine it's the same in most places.

Weird, I applaud your enthusiasm though! In addition to the great advice everyone else has given you, I would just add that the simple truth is more powerful than you think.

You dont have to put sparklers on it. Just follow the advice on the thread and speak your truth.

Glad you're feeling empowered.
Originally Posted by SugarCane
Originally Posted by WierdSituation
I have read suggestions on contacting services in Phillipines or other countries that one can pay to get calls made to OM. Does anyone have the name and contact info?
You did not read that here.

Oh, I was getting this idea from wifedivorcing thread which I found to be intriguing. Wiferdivorcing got a lot of ideas from the forum on how to get his WW out of the mess and tactics OM and his business. This quote was just part of a bigger story of advice he was getting. OM in my case has a business.

Originally Posted by Jedi_Knight
Originally Posted by wifedivorcing
I just checked it appears he is the owner of this place, according to the home page on the internet..

This is how we dealt with problem business when I was an organizer:

1. picketing

2. call a pest exterminator, tell them you have rats and need them removed...give them business address.

3. file code complaints..workers smoking near doors, fire code complaints, health department complaints, etc.

4. Call the business often. Workers in India and China will call a business 100 times a day for around $5.

5. Dig into business records/ news articles/ complaints filed against the business. Set up a website to "expose" the business with links to the articles.

6. leave negative ratings on business review sites. Every internet phone listing has a place for customer comments...post Om on cheaterville and leave links to the cheaterville post on all the customer review pages.

7. Find out if he is a member of the Chamber of Commerce or a local trade/ industry association. If so, write an exposure letter to the groups directors.

This is just outright war. Use every legal means at your disposal to ruin this cockroach

Anyways, your point is taken. I was just trying to get this cockroach out of my family.
I have to do 2 types of Exposures and they are both of extreme importance:
1. The affair
2. What she has done to the kids and me

I am torn on how to expose this,
a. write the affair exposure letter with a link website that has all that happened about the affair and what she has do the kids and me. Letter will be short.
b. combine the two exposures with all that happened about the affair included and what she has done to the kids and me without a link to website. Letter will be long.
c. combine the two exposures in one letter and details in a link to website. Letter will be short.

I cannot leave all that has happened. These exposures have to tell it all.

BTW Lawyer had also mentioned that "there should be emphasis on how everything has affected/is affecting they kids which anyway is true. It will look better to the judge/court."
Here is my draft letter.

Dear friends and family,

I am writing you this message because you are an important person in the lives of WW(maiden name: WW) and I. As some of you know, WW has asked me for a separation/divorce, which has shattered my heart. To my shock, I am saddened to have discovered that the reason is because she had an affair with a coworker/her boss named OM (OM with middle name), a serial adulterer who now resides in Auckland, New Zealand and also still lives in Lennox Head(near Brisbane and Byron Bay), Australia. He is also married and has a young child. His wife was living in Lennox Head as a stay home mom, while he was living in Sydney where my wife lived also. The purpose of the separation is so that she can carry on her affair and other relationships without interference. A few days before I was served the papers she told me out of the blue that she wanted to find an Italian boyfriend. She betrayed me with OM in 2012/2013 when she left us to work under him for 7 months at Company Xxx (Xxx Group), Sydney and this heavily affected our marriage for 3 years because she was lying and denying everything. 3.5 years on she finally admitted to it. Upon confessing I asked her if that is what a good wife does and she said no. She was in Sydney, from November 2012 till April 2013 nearly 7 months while I was alone with very young kids aged 2 and 5, and at the same time I had a full time job in Germany.

While she was living Sydney, OM also had picked her up by car early on a Saturday morning in April from her apartment in Bondi Beach to his place in Manly, Sydney which is an hour away. When he picked her up I was on Skype and our children had just gotten up and she hung up when our son just said Hi. Children were so unhappy with this. She said she had to go with OM to help Bbbb shop. We tried to call her several times hours later but she never called us back.

He dropped her back at her apartment the following morning (Sunday) around 7am when she told me she had walked with an old woman from work form the city center to Bondi a distance that takes 1hr and 40 minutes. She did not work with an old woman who live in Bondi. It is dangerous to walk at that time there. It is a shock for Sydneysiders to hear she walked. She had told me that he had came to pick him up to shop for Bbbb Bbbb to furnish his apartment which turned out to be a lie. She told me that she had gone to OM�s apartment with Bbbb. It turns out it was a lie and Bbbb was never with them. She attests Bbbb had moved from the US in December and did not need any more shopping. WW would tell me that she does not remember what she did with OM that whole night. For 3.5 years I endured many different versions of the stories and lies: From that day and night she said �I never went to where OM lives.� �We just went shopping to I never went into OM�s apartment, we were just in the are he lived.� �I went into his apartment with Bbbb alone, ask Bbbb to I went into his apartment with other people.� �I do not remember what I did with OM that day and the whole night.�

Also for the 7 months she was in Sydney she said she never hung out or did anything with OM.

On her last 4 days in Sydney she mentioned that she was leaving her apartment because her landlord was giving her troubles. On these last nights we communicated on Skype at night and she never turned on her video to show herself and surroundings. She had told me that she was staying at the apartment of her friend and coworker Qqq Qqqq. I called Sophie and she said she does not remember.


WW is telling authorities, friends and family that she only stayed in Australia for two months when it is exactly seven months. Tickets and passport are also proof for this. So are friends who lived In Germany, Company Xxx and her coworkers there.

She refuses to end the affair with him. I want our marriage to recover from this affair and what it has caused. If you have any influence on my wife, please do what you can to get her to stop this dangerous affair. I want to stay married, but the affair must end. I do love my wife.

So far we have lost $250 000.00(yes, quarter of a million) already because of this affair.

For more about the story go to this link xxxxxxxxxxxx(still to come).

As our friends and family, I am asking that you use your influence with xxxx to persuade her to end her affair and try to work on our marriage. Our marriage can be salvaged if she would only end the affair. Please support her in doing the right thing. Please support our marriage, family and children. I love her.

The man is OM and his contact info is +xxxxxxx or +xxxxxxx � Mobile country name.

OM�s Linkedin: xxxxxx
OM�s Facebook:xxxxx

OM hired her to leave the children and I in Germany to go join him in Australia.
When she left us all our fellow American and European friends, and common friends with OM were utterly shocked and kept on telling me that WW was sleeping with OM in Sydney and that she should never left us. I did not head the warning.
OM�s wife was my friend. OM and his wife were no longer my friends following OM�s infringement in our marriage that led me to ask OM to stay away from my wife and that led WW to separate from me briefly in 2010.
He write to her asking her to leaves us in New York to come work under him at Ssss, New Zealand and Aaaa, New Zealand where he worked.
At the time she kicked me out OM was working with her on some work that was solicited through questionable and unethical means.
OM also seduced my wife telling her that he had access to private islands his friends own and that she should come with him.
While working Sydney she flew to OM�s house without telling me. OM had flown earlier. I only got her once on the phone because the kids desperately wanted to see her because they had not seen/talked to her for a long time ultimately forcing her to call us from Skype and we realized that she had gone to visit OM when the Skype opened. We saw OM�s wife. After the wife left WW thanked me so much for calling her because she was afraid of the wife�s suspicions. It freed her from what the wife might have suspected between her and her husband.
OM has given WW rosy recommendations to all companies that she has worked for since Sydney. These include company 1, company 2 , company 3 to mention a few.
BTW in 2008 WW informed me that Fffff Ffff a Kiwi also and coworker of OM and her at Dddd asked all colleagues in the team that �How does Yyyy(OM�s wife) put up with OM when he sleeps with many women? OM�s wife had always been a stay home mom for a very long time while OM travelled all over Europe through work.

OM had once infringed our marriages in inappropriate manners. Back in City A, Germany OM had my wife come to his family apartment for dinner while I was in New York for work and his wife and son were in Australia for months. I found out that about this only after it happened. When I called my wife the following day OM3 mentioned below was at our apartment with her and she told me that we talk later. I tried to call her the following day and she said she could not talk because she was meeting OM3 again. I reached out to OM and OM3 separately and they never showed their wives these email exchanges yet told their wives different stories. OM and OM3 ended up colluding and spun the stories to their wives which led to OM�s wife being manipulated.

In 2004/2005 while coming from work earlier than usual around 4pm I found WW and her ex-boyfriend OM2 in front of our apartment putting our bikes back into the apartment. They had gone cycling together. He used my bike. She had told me early in the morning that she was going to meet him for coffee but I was shocked that he had been in our apartment whilst I had been at work the whole day. At that I was supporting us when she could not find work. He was visiting from Greece, his home country. I was shocked. He is also married.

WW also once left for Puerto Rico with some girls I did not know for a girls �vacation�. She only told me about the trip the day before she left. I was shocked. Right after she came back I saw a picture of two guys leaning on a car lying on our bed. I never asked her about it. Till today she does not know I saw these photos. She had unpacked her stuff on the bed. I came from outside the apartment and saw the photos.

Also when we were in Germany she kept having OM3 to our apartment when I was away at work or consulting abroad and his wife and daughter were in Colombia or Spain for months too. Again OM3�s wife is a friend of WW. He would bring her stuff and she would tell me that he had brought gifts for me when he and I did not have a relationship. Our friendship had been damaged because of his constant visits to my wife while I was away that I even saw a Skype message to him by WW saying �BS, se fue� indicating I was gone, OM3 was free to visit her home when I left for work to New York. This played a role in destabilizing our marriage.

As you all know and also what WW to me WW�s maternal grandfather had a work extramarital affair with his assistant at the company he owned where WW� father worked at also. Upon his death WW�s father had to convince WW� mom and mom�s sister to allow the affair partner to attend the funeral. Please help me this not to happen to my children so they do not think this is what life is.

I would so appreciate your support and prayers.

Warmest regards,

Xxxxxx Xxxxxx(my full name)

Workplace exposure letter. Is there something you think should be changed or added? Any thoughts?

To Whom It May Concern:

This letter is to bring a matter to your attention that may be a violation of your Company's Code of Conduct and/or other policies, procedures and business ethics.

WS and WS were in an extramarital affair that took place, primarily, in the workplace from November 2012 and continued after OM left. The affair still continues. Aside from the potential sexual harassment claims this situation presents, it also involves the inappropriate use of company resources and assets. WS and WS were using company time and company resources to further their affair. If you check the call histories on their office and cell phones along with their workstation computers, you will find the two of them are spending an inordinate amount of what should be productive work time to further their sexual relationship.

OM brought WS from Germany to work under him in Sydney. WS left me with children aged 2 and 5 while I had a fulltime job. OM�s wife was a stay home mom and lived in Lennox Head near Byron Bay.

If you have any questions, please call me at xxx-xxxx. Otherwise, I will anticipate a response from you once you have investigated these concerns and taken appropriate corrective action.

Regards,
___________
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Yeah, the laws here in the UK would only allow one time contact between strangers, harassment is usually punishable. I imagine it's the same in most places.

Weird, I applaud your enthusiasm though! In addition to the great advice everyone else has given you, I would just add that the simple truth is more powerful than you think.

You dont have to put sparklers on it. Just follow the advice on the thread and speak your truth.

Glad you're feeling empowered.

Thank you. I will follow the advice. Today I got goose pimples from exposure fear. After having read all threads for the last 2. 5 years I am convinced it is the right thing to do.
Here is the letter to OM contacts. I am wondering that there is useful information that will be beneficial for his contacts to know and avoid any doubts. Should I make the letter short and then provide a link to a website? Should this website be different from the one I will make for friends and family of WW.

Dear friend of OM:

It grieves me to write this letter but I believe all of his friends should know the kind of person he really is. OM had an affair with my wife, Xxxx Xxxx(maiden name Xxx Xxxx Xxx), from November 2012 until April 2013 in Sydney and it is still alive. I believe that his friends should know this, so you can protect your marriage from him. My wife and I have 1 small son and 1 small daughter and this affair has almost wrecked our marriage.

He is using her for sex. He has used and still uses companies� and clients� resources to lure women for work to then have sex with them.

My wife told me in 2008 that Xxxx Xxxx their coworker at Xxxx had revealed his concern to her and other co-workers that �How does John�s wife handle this that John always sleeps with many women?�

He once told me of one husband in the UK he said was jealous of his wife he was working with. Little did I know he was making me believe he was innocent and not a serial adulterer, that my wife and I were already targets of his strategy. He uses work and paints the husband jealousy as a camouflage for indulging into affairs. Be on alert with your wife when it comes to OM.

Please encourage all his ex-girlfriends, and affair partners and their betrayed husbands to come out and even contact me.

As some of you(some common friends between OM and I too) in Germany warned me that Mercedes and OM were having an affair In Sydney you were correct.

OM has taken work for sex and money behind the companies and their clients he has worked for - Aaa NZ, Xxx, NZ, Xxx, Xxx, Sydney and Xxx, Germany. He then assigns this work to a ring of people that include Mercedes. Please ask him to stop. Please ask Mercedes to stop working with him. My children do not need this money. He asked Mercedes many times to leave children and me to come work with for him at Xxxx, NZ where he would be close to her for the affair. He also was driving to invite her to some private islands his friends have. He also has wanted her to move to Australia especially Brisbane where he would have her close to his house.

The affair is known to the WW� lawyers, my lawyers, children�s lawyer, police, child custody forensics psychiatrist, the judge and the Xxx Supreme Court, Xxx Criminal Court. WW brought it up first.

OM picked my wife on a Saturday morning from the apartment she was staying in Bondi Beach, Sydney to Manly, Sydney and brought her back to the apartment on Sunday around 7am.

I would appreciate it if someone would notify his parents and ask them to call me at xxx -xxx xxx

Thank you,

Xxxx Xxxx
My advice would be to make things shorter and more factual. You risk looking like a rambler otherwise.

Originally Posted by WierdSituation
Here is my draft letter.

Dear friends and family,

I am writing you this message because you are an important person in the lives of WW(maiden name: WW) and I. As some of you know, WW has asked me for a separation/divorce, which has shattered my heart. To my shock, I am saddened to have discovered that the reason is because she had an affair with her boss named OM who is also married and has a young child.

Unfortunately they decieved myself and Mrs Boss, for three years and their affair has destroyed both families. It has involved her dropping all scheduled plans, even Skype, with the children whenever he was free, such is his professional power and influence over her. As well as recommending her to three companies, OM hired her to leave the children and I in Germany to go join him (near his family home?) in Australia for x months (Or other factual example) leaving me a single parent for extented periods and destroying the children's relationships with their mother.

So far we have lost $250 000.00; yes, quarter of a million, already because of this affair.

As our friends and family, I am asking that you use your influence with xxxx to persuade her to end her affair and try to work on our marriage. Our marriage can be salvaged if she would only end the affair. Please support her in doing the right thing. Please support our marriage, family and children. I love her.

I would so appreciate your support and prayers.

Warmest regards,

Xxxxxx Xxxxxx(my full name)
Originally Posted by WierdSituation
.

Dear friend of OM:

It grieves me to write this letter but I believe all of his friends should know the kind of person he really is. OM had an affair with my wife, Xxxx Xxxx(maiden name Xxx Xxxx Xxx), from November 2012 until April 2013 in Sydney and it is still alive. I believe that his friends should know this, so you can protect your marriage from him. My wife and I have 1 small son and 1 small daughter and this affair has almost wrecked our marriage.

As many of you warned me; he is using her for sex. Even my wife is aware he has used, and still uses, companies� and clients� resources to have sex with many of his employees.

My wife told me in 2008 that Xxxx Xxxx their coworker at Xxxx had revealed his concern to her and other co-workers that �How does John�s wife handle this that John always sleeps with many women?�

He once told me of one husband in the UK he said was jealous of his wife he was working with. Little did I know he was making me believe he was innocent and not a serial adulterer, but my wife and I were already targets of his strategy. He uses work and paints the husband jealousy as a camouflage for indulging into affairs. Be on alert with your wife when it comes to OM.

Please encourage all his ex-girlfriends, and affair partners and their betrayed husbands to come out and even contact me.

To those of you in Germany who warned me that Mercedes and OM were having an affair In Sydney you were correct; I pay this warning forward to others.

OM has taken work for sex and money behind the companies and their clients he has worked for - Aaa NZ, Xxx, NZ, Xxx, Xxx, Sydney and Xxx, Germany. He then assigns this work to a ring of people that include Mercedes. Please ask him to stop. Please ask Mercedes to stop working with him. My children do not need this type of money. He asked Mercedes many times to leave the children and me for money; to come work for him at Xxxx, NZ.

The affair is known to the WW� lawyers, my lawyers, children�s lawyer, police, child custody forensics psychiatrist, the judge and the Xxx Supreme Court, Xxx Criminal Court where WW has brought costly legal battles against me with his backing.

I would appreciate it if someone would notify his parents and ask them to call me at xxx -xxx xxx

Thank you,

Xxxx Xxxx
Actually the legal battles thing makes it sound like there's a valid complaint on her side...
Originally Posted by indiegirl
.

The affair is known to the WW� lawyers, my lawyers, children�s lawyer, police, child custody forensics psychiatrist, the judge and the Xxx Supreme Court, Xxx Criminal Court. Her continued attempts to attack me legally have simply led to her receiving supervised visitations based on the court's own recognition of them as frivolous attempts.
[/quote]

I think if you're going to mention legal battles, you should put in the outcome; possibly this paragraph is better used in the letter to your friends and family. His circle should be focused on his MO as a workplace predator.



Originally Posted by indiegirl
Dear friends and family,

I am writing you this message because you are an important person in the lives of WW(maiden name: WW) and I. As some of you know, WW has asked me for a separation/divorce, which has shattered my heart. To my shock, I am saddened to have discovered that the reason is because she had an affair with her boss named OM who is also married and has a young child.

Unfortunately they decieved myself and Mrs Boss, for three years and their affair has destroyed both families. It has involved her dropping all scheduled plans, even Skype, with the children whenever he was free, such is his professional power and influence over her. As well as recommending her to three companies, OM hired her to leave the children and I in Germany to go join him (near his family home?) in Australia for x months (Or other factual example) leaving me a single parent for extented periods and destroying the children's relationships with their mother.

So far we have lost $250 000.00; yes, quarter of a million, already because of this affair.

The affair is known to the WW� lawyers, my lawyers, children�s lawyer, police, child custody forensics psychiatrist, the judge and the Xxx Supreme Court, Xxx Criminal Court. Her continued attempts to attack me legally have simply led to her receiving supervised visitations based on the court's own recognition of them as frivolous attempts. For the sake of our children, please intervene with her before hostilities and expenses ruin us completely.

As our friends and family, I am asking that you use your influence with xxxx to persuade her to end her affair and try to work on our marriage. Our marriage can be salvaged if she would only end the affair. Please support her in doing the right thing. Please support our marriage, family and children. I love her.

I would so appreciate your support and prayers.

Warmest regards,

Xxxxxx Xxxxxx(my full name)
[/quote]

I've added your court paragraph to the family letter, because I think it's more compelling to the children's relatives than a professional circle.

Originally Posted by indiegirl
Actually the legal battles thing makes it sound like there's a valid complaint on her side...
Thank you indiegirl. She brought it up as a defence mechanism to try to out me first by saying I was accusing her of the affair.

Should I remove it?

I got confused. Are the two quotes above the edited versions of the two letters of my originals I should use? It looks like the edited versions are in quotes.
Here is the draft letter to the Spouse of affair partner. I am very overwhelmed with information that I do not know how to do this or start or what info to leave and to put. Nearly there though.

Hi Other BS, exposing it all in plain sight.

Sorry to email you, but there is something you need to know. Our spouses had a full blown extramarital affair in Sydney.

WW admitted to me that she had sex with OM in Manly, Sydney.

I was on Skype with WW and all of a sudden she said OM is here to pick her up and they were going shopping for Henrik. BTW Henrik had furnished his apartment already. He had also moved to Sydney in December. OM had come driving a car from Manly. She left Skype. This was on a Saturday morning Australian time. It was around 9:30 am and It was just before midnight in Germany. The kids and I were in Dusseldorf.

We tried to call her on Skype on her Saturday evening and night thinking she was back from shopping but we never got her. Saturday 5pm till 1 am(roughly German 7am till 3pm). We gave up. Kids wanted to speak with her badly. We made another call very late before the kids went to sleep and she answered. It was Sunday 7:am Sydney time(roughly around 9pm German time) and she had just got home. OM had just dropped her. Instead she said sorry she and that an old lady from work had just walked Sydney CBD very late(early morning). She lived in Bondi and it is pretty far from Sydney and it sounded fishy to walk from there at dawn. She had spent 22 hours(from 9:30 am Saturday to 7am Sunday) with OM in Manly.

When we agreed that she goes to Australia she promised that she will never hang out with OM alone. I gave her 100% trust that nothing bad will happen between her and OM. I had put the past behind. I even bought a Killer Pitsch bottle gift for OM that WW took to Australia. I took her word.

(By the way if you need the email exchange between OM and I about the past I can always send them to you. I am sick because I was misrepresented by him and William.)

3. 5 years letter she admitted to having slept with OM.
3 years of lying destroyed our relationship. I knew she was lying because nothing was adding up. It was the primary reason that led to our divorce.

Her denying:
First she said she never went to OM�s Manly area.
I found out that she had gone to Manly from credit card statements. The only thing she bought while with him there was coffee. Nothing else. She bought this exactly on the day that OM picked her up. That is when I knew she had been to Manly with OM and that she had eaten at his place since she never bought anything else or maybe OM paid everything in restaurant and bars. She did not use cash that much because she did not open a bank account in Australia. Still today I have not tell her that I found out from the credit card statement. By the way I found out this when we were still in Germany, 2013. I kept my mouth shut. I do not have access to the statement but if I find it I will be sure to send it to you. The card was in her name. This happened after the kids and I had left Australia and before she left Australia in 2013. OM had left the BT already.

Then I asked her if she had gone to Manly. She denied.

Months later:
I asked her if she had entered OM�s apartment, then she said they just passed by OM�s apartment for 15 minutes with Henrik and that I can even ask Henrik. How could I have asked Henrik?

Months later:
I asked her again and she said she went into OM�s apartment with a group of people for only 15 minutes. Before she had said that she had gone only with Henrik and OM.

Months later:
She said OM is not her kind of man and she is not attracted to him and that nothing had happened between the two of them. I said then why are you not telling me what happened / what you guys did.

Another time:
I said to her while I was tying my shoes that what she did in Australia was cheating and her whole body jerked from fear. This was a clear hint that she had done something not right with OM.

Months later:
I asked her what she and OM had done in Manly and she said she did not remember. For three and half years I did not know what they had done together. This was a very long time. She kept all the information from me. Till now I do not know the details of what they did on that whole Saturday and the whole night.

Another time:
2015
One day we were walking with the kids and I was saying let us buy a house in Sydney. She said those houses are not nice and that OM had driven her in and around Manly and she had seen the houses. That was the first time I knew she hung out with OM alone and she had always said she never hung out alone with him. The cat had slipped out of the bag. She did not mean it to be known. I kept quiet because I did not want her to be careful. I wanted her to reveal more in the future without fear of being caught.

2016. I said to her I know everything. Tell me or otherwise this it.
I told her that she had told the kids and us that OM had driven her showing things in Manly. She was very surprised and looked liked she was peeing on herself. She got really embarrassed and was overwhelmed with guilt of being caught with lies. She was sitting on a chair and her whole body moved off the chair and forward and she said nothing happened. I know when her body moves like that she is lying - It is a classic move she exhibits that I am very familiar with when she is lying. At that moment I knew they had had sex. I know her body movements when she lies. I mastered them on our time of marriage. Then I said now just tell me all. She said she had sex with him and that they had spent Saturday till Sunday wee wee hours and he dropped her very early in the morning at her place in Bondi. She then said it now does not matter anyway because we are getting divorced. I asked her if that is what a wife does and she said no. Kids and I left the room and she was crying.

When OM was at Deloitte NZ he kept on asking her to come to work in NZ and leave us the family in NY.

He also gives her rosy recommendations for every job she applies. He has given her recommendation at all companies she has worked since Xxxx, xxxxx, Xxxxxxe Inc. and possibly Xxx, Xxx, Xxx and Xxx.

She refused us to move to Australia. I did not know the reason that time why she did not want us to move. Now I know because of what happened.

Another note is that when she came to Byron Bay she had never told me about the trip She bought the ticket about a month before or so and only told me when she was about to fly. I called her on her mobile when she was at your place. You may have sensed it was not fun. She thanked me for calling her because in reality she did not want you suspect anything between OM and her.

Back in Germany WW once told me that Coworker Xxxx had told her and a group of co-workers that �how does OM�s wife(Other BS) deal with this when he is always cheating on her. How come she does not see it� It is one reason I always hesitated that WW and OM hang out together. You may want to talk to his coworkers at Vodafone and Sapient, and ask them you need to know the truth whether about OM�s infidelity history. They all know.

WW also thinks you are naive, gullible, dumb and not smart, and has no respect for you. She mentioned this back in Germany and she still thinks so.

When WW was in Australia I thought of leaving with kids and she woukd find the apartment empty when she was returning from Australia because I knew she was lying and she had cheated. I decided not to.

I do not know if OM ever told you that the two hung out together and that they spend all this long time together in Manly alone. I have never been to Manly. You should not break your marriage because of this. I am laying out this information out there so you know and you are careful, and you understand the whole situation. Sometimes it is better to lay the truth out there even though it hurts. I am not doing this to seek revenge. I want you and OM to be together. I do not want this thing to happen you again. As much as many people say she is a [censored], I still miss my wife and I love her..

Take care, stay calm and collected. Panic and emotions can get in the way. Be very careful how you approach OM about this. The best way is to do your own investigation and gather information without him suspecting, ask the right questions about that Saturday and Sunday morning. Find out on your own first before relying on me and believing what I am saying. That way you will know the truth without any doubt and it is more satisfying especially if you do it really well sometimes even using private investigators when necessary. And also adulterers always deny to having cheated. It is always to get the information first and then confront if you need to. Do not confront without any information or clues. It is important to ask questions that will show if they are trying to hide something or not. I can only tell you because I have been there. If he never told you about that these two days he spent with WW then it is not pretty at all. If he told you that he was with WW you may want to know more. Seeing a therapist may help you before to better see things in perspective and will help your relationship.

However, what I know is that this event led the destruction of our family and nothing else. It was my fault that I let her go to Australia. I have not met a single person anywhere(in Germany, here, etc.) who has not been shocked that she left her family for Australia for seven months. The kids were only 2 years old and 5 years old.

I am recovering from it. Time helps. I know that once OM knows that I told you he is going to be furious. The reality and the bottom line is that this is a result of their (OM and WW) actions and not of you or me ...we trusted them 100%. But please do me a favor, do not destroy your marriage. It is not pretty. Roberto needs you guys.

We are in divorce proceedings and now she is lying to the court and lawyers that she did not work in Australia. Strange things. She does not want to be with kids even on holidays except the xmas. I spent 3 weekends(Friday to Monday), 3 Wednesdays and 3 Thursday mornings with them and she has them for only one weekend and one Monday/Tuesday/Wednesday mornings. Kids are with nanny and she hardly sees them. She took money from kids� college money accounts, transferred our money in Germany to her brother and took our money here in cash and gave it to her brother. Now she wants to take the whole house. And she is lying in court. She is threatening to kill me through her father and brother. And there is much more�

She told OM about our divorce sometime in Feb / March before she even told her parents and friends.

if OM says he is done with WW. Ensure he'll say that immediately, but do not to believe it, the betrayers can't be trusted.

Wayward Spouses will try to minimize everything such as flirting, or just touching, contact...I know better now than to believe them

WW also wanted to have your family Skype name on our list as to make us not suspect anything.

1. Are you aware that OM removed his Facebook page after my lawyers exposed affair to the New York Supreme Court. He blocked me not to access his page and friends?

2. Are you aware OM and WW have talked intensively many times to tell people a tall tale and spin the story and say I am crazy and jealous?

3, Are you aware that WW stayed with OM in her last days in Sydney instead of staying at Sophie's dad as she says?

4. Are you aware that WW wanted us to put our Skype name to connect with yours because she wanted to hide the affair?
She asked to try to befriend OM on Skype because it would "make it easier on them to call us."

5. Are you aware that WW told me in 2008 that Coworker Xxxx expressed his major concerns about your marriage when he told the Vodafone work colleagues in his own words " I do not understand how Other BS puts up with OM when he sleeps with many women all over." Please call Malcolm and talk to him about this before OM reaches hm. You may want to reach out to some of OM's colleagues he has worked with especially in Europe and they can tell you all they know.

6. Are you aware that William and OM told a tall tale about me in Dusseldorf when I emailed about each of them being alone with WW.

7. Are you aware that William asked Astrid to have threesome and she refused? He said he was going to pursue it.

8. Are you aware that OM wanted and still wants to take WW to private islands that his friends own? He told her about the islands and asked her.

9. Are you aware that they talk through Google Hangouts, LinkedIn and possibly WhatsApp, phone calls, etc.

10. Are you aware that they use work as way to hide what they are doing in the affair

11. Are aware that when WW came to Byron Bay to visit you she had not told me? I had to call her multiple times and that is when we talked on Skype. She told me was very thankful that I called because she thinks thst it made you feel nothing was happening between her and OM.


Important things to do before OM beats you to it. He has probably done so already
1. make sure you do not give them a chance to communicate between the time you confront OM and WW. Confront OM and take his phone and computers and anything he can use to contact WW then call WW right away. You will be able to see if their facts align. They have anyways figured out to hide everything but you still may get where they are lying to you.

2. Once you confront OM he is going to hide everything, erase everything, and he and WW and the affair will go underground for a while. They will then resume it openly.

3. Take his computer and phones and do forensics.
4. Tell him to give you all access to his emails, LinkedIn and Google Hangouts.
5. Go to this site and read the forum, post and you will get the best advice on how to deal with this affair, marriage, OM and WW.

Stay well and collected, and be strong. I am available to talk if you have any questions. I offer to share all evidence that I find.

I offer to ensure that all contact is truly ended between her and OM when I can and I ask you to do the same. If you want to chat, here is my number and email address for follow up questions. I urge you to work it out with OM. It is truly heartbreaking that they did this.

My full name
Number: +xxxxxxxxx.
Email: xxxxxxxxx@....

In case you want to call WW her number is +xxxxxxxxx.

Please accept my sympathy as you deal with this latest blow �

Warm regards,

My full name






The time zone difference complicates the exposure. I have read from a number of posters that they do regret not finishing the exposure within 1 or 2 hours. Some have mentioned success from posting on FB walls for about hour and then removing. Knowing WW and OM are hot heads and have large egos I find this extremely tempting; This would seriously be effective. Remember when he infringed in our marriage and I told them to stop and then they did it again. They do not listen or care.

Another poster had a very effective exposure by exposing in 3 overnights over the weekend - Friday, Saturday and Sunday nights - less than 72 hours. I am thinking of following this strategy since I cannot finish the exposure within 1 or 2 hours. I do not have all emails addresses and I will have to use FB for most of WW friends.

The main challenge is when to send it to Spouse of affair partner/OM.

Friday Overnight EST 12:00AM - 8:00AM = Saturday Evening Auckland 4PM - 12:00 AM
Creates a surprise and tsunami effect in the morning of WW
1. Send to our very close friends and family. The problem is WW's father wakes up at 1:00PM. He will see this 5 hours after WW has been notified.
2. Spouse of affair partner/OM - she will see it before she and OM go to sleep with OM getting a tsunami effect the following morning but then she will have told OM already. I can tell her to call WW at 2AM her time which will 10AM WW time.
2. Workplace exposure - they will see it on Sunday 7PM EST/Monday 11AM Auckland

Saturday Morning EST 8AM - 4PM = Sunday Night Auckland 12:00AM to 8:00 AM
Creates a surprise and tsunami effect in the morning of OM
1. send to 1 Elderly of affair partner. OM's parents are dead.
2. Facebook exposure of OM

Saturday Overnight EST 12:00AM - 8:00AM = Sunday Evening Auckland 4PM - 12:00 AM
Send to the rest of close friends and family.

Sunday Overnight EST 12:00AM - 8:00AM = Monday Evening Auckland 4PM - 12:00 AM
Send to rest of OM friends and Family

Converting Auckland Time to EST:
https://www.worldtimebuddy.com/new-zealand-auckland-to-est

Any gaps you see or ideas?
Any suggestions for what could be the best Subject Line to put for the emails going to parents, close family, friends? I have come up with a few below. I was thinking the subject line needs to be powerful and also incite people to open email as opposed to ignore or trash it.

1. Please Save My Marriage/Family, Persuade WS to end Affair
2. Please Save My Marriage/Family
3. Persuade WS to end Affair
4. WS's Extramarital Affair
5. WS's Extramarital Affair - Please Save My Marriage/Kids/Family
6. Please Save My Marriage/Kids/Family - WS's Extramarital Affair
7. Any suggestions
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Dear friends and family,

I am writing you this message because you are an important person in the lives of WW(maiden name: WW) and I. As some of you know, WW has asked me for a separation/divorce, which has shattered my heart. To my shock, I am saddened to have discovered that the reason is because she had an affair with her boss named OM who is also married and has a young child.

Unfortunately they decieved myself and Mrs Boss, for three years and their affair has destroyed both families. It has involved her dropping all scheduled plans, even Skype, with the children whenever he was free, such is his professional power and influence over her. As well as recommending her to three companies, OM hired her to leave the children and I in Germany to go join him (near his family home?) in Australia for x months (Or other factual example) leaving me a single parent for extented periods and destroying the children's relationships with their mother.

So far we have lost $250 000.00; yes, quarter of a million, already because of this affair.

The affair is known to the WW� lawyers, my lawyers, children�s lawyer, police, child custody forensics psychiatrist, the judge and the Xxx Supreme Court, Xxx Criminal Court. Her continued attempts to attack me legally have simply led to her receiving supervised visitations based on the court's own recognition of them as frivolous attempts. For the sake of our children, please intervene with her before hostilities and expenses ruin us completely.

As our friends and family, I am asking that you use your influence with xxxx to persuade her to end her affair and try to work on our marriage. Our marriage can be salvaged if she would only end the affair. Please support her in doing the right thing. Please support our marriage, family and children. I love her.

I would so appreciate your support and prayers.

Warmest regards,

Xxxxxx Xxxxxx(my full name)

I've added your court paragraph to the family letter, because I think it's more compelling to the children's relatives than a professional circle.

[/quote]

Thank you very much Indiegirl. All brilliant! Oh, I think we had posted at the same time.

Here is the addition to the sentence...
OM hired her to leave the children and I in Germany to go join him in Sydney in Australia (a 9 hour drive from his family home where his wife and son lived) where she ended up working for 7 months leaving me a single parent for extended periods and destroying the children's relationships with their mother.

Court sentence - by saying child custody forensics psychiatrist I am wondering if the court may say I am revealing what is in the evaluation report. But I really like the paragraph. Finally, she did not end up getting supervised visitations or punished because the case is still pending. No outcome yet.
....
The affair is known to the WW� lawyers, my lawyers, children�s lawyer, police, child custody forensics psychiatrist, the judge and the Xxx Supreme Court, Xxx Criminal Court. Her continued attempts to attack me legally have simply led to massive suffering of our children. For the sake of our children, please intervene with her before hostilities and expenses ruin us completely.
I think we are nearly done. Should I remove the legal battles paragraph. I do not want people to think she has a valid reason when she brought it in court to try to make a move first as defense mechanism - pre-empting me - to make the court she think she is innocent - when she knew I would bring it in court. She had brought it up saying I had been accusing her of an affair.
I've written before, your situation is quite complicated and for me too complicated to be of good help. But you have the advantage of being in direct contact with Dr. Harley by email. Did you have contact after the last time you posted the email?
Originally Posted by goody2shoes
I've written before, your situation is quite complicated and for me too complicated to be of good help. But you have the advantage of being in direct contact with Dr. Harley by email. Did you have contact after the last time you posted the email?

No, I have not. It sounds like you are suggesting I should contact him to decide to expose now or after settlement. Right?
Originally Posted by goody2shoes
I've written before, your situation is quite complicated and for me too complicated to be of good help. But you have the advantage of being in direct contact with Dr. Harley by email. Did you have contact after the last time you posted the email?

Thank you goody2shoes. No, I have not. Yes, it is a high conflict divorce. It sounds like you are suggesting I should contact him to decide or get his opinion to expose now or after settlement. Right? You got me into thinking maybe I should not expose now. Here is the note I want to send to Dr. Harley. What do you think?

Hello Dr. Harley,

Following advice from the forum to contact you directly for advice on your thoughts on whether I should expose now or after the settlement since

The lawyer has told me that my wife is impossible to deal with. She is making life difficult for everyone and kids. I told my lawyer I want to tell people what she is doing and they can make her accountable and put her in check so she does not do what she is doing since the system, court, judge, children�s lawyer and my lawyer have not helped or make her accountable while watching everything being destroyed and so much has been destroyed already. I was thinking friends and family would put her in check. I have asked my lawyer about exposing. He was not for it in but on my insistence and explanation he ended up saying lets roll the dice(expose)and we will deal with it in court.

The case and separation has been going on for two and a half years. It may even take another year or so. The divorce is a very high conflict one.

WW does not have a lawyer. My lawyer has told me that she is harassing me in and out of the court through what she is doing.

What is your advice? I know last time we were in touch you advised me not expose till settlement is done. Should I stick with this advice or expose now? Would exposing now have any benefits? Should I stay calm, watch and let her do what she is doing and let the court deal with it? Maybe it is beneficial for me that I do nothing or shake anything and let her make mistakes?

Thank you,


If you are in the position to have an expert advise you, I think it is wise not to ignore that.

I get a feeling from some of your postings that make me wonder if your expectations of exposure are realistic. You also seem to be selective in what advise you follow and what actions to take. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I am drawing wrong conclusions from what I am reading. But it would certainly not harm to ask for directions again.
Originally Posted by goody2shoes
If you are in the position to have an expert advise you, I think it is wise not to ignore that.

I get a feeling from some of your postings that make me wonder if your expectations of exposure are realistic. You also seem to be selective in what advise you follow and what actions to take. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I am drawing wrong conclusions from what I am reading. But it would certainly not harm to ask for directions again.

I wrote to Dr. Harley. I will let you know once I hear from him.
Originally Posted by WierdSituation
Originally Posted by goody2shoes
If you are in the position to have an expert advise you, I think it is wise not to ignore that.

I get a feeling from some of your postings that make me wonder if your expectations of exposure are realistic. You also seem to be selective in what advise you follow and what actions to take. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I am drawing wrong conclusions from what I am reading. But it would certainly not harm to ask for directions again.

I wrote to Dr. Harley. I will let you know once I hear from him.

I got a response from Dr. Harley really quick. Here it is:

I'd follow the advice of your lawyer because he knows more about the risks of exposure in your case that I would. Your divorce should go to court as soon as possible, and he would know how the court would view your exposure. You may be better off without it before the divorce, especially if the divorce is soon and there is no hope for reconciliation. You can expose the affair after the divorce is over.
What are you going to do? Are you going to wait to expose?
Originally Posted by WierdSituation
Originally Posted by WierdSituation
Originally Posted by goody2shoes
If you are in the position to have an expert advise you, I think it is wise not to ignore that.

I get a feeling from some of your postings that make me wonder if your expectations of exposure are realistic. You also seem to be selective in what advise you follow and what actions to take. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I am drawing wrong conclusions from what I am reading. But it would certainly not harm to ask for directions again.

I wrote to Dr. Harley. I will let you know once I hear from him.

I got a response from Dr. Harley really quick. Here it is:

I'd follow the advice of your lawyer because he knows more about the risks of exposure in your case that I would. Your divorce should go to court as soon as possible, and he would know how the court would view your exposure. You may be better off without it before the divorce, especially if the divorce is soon and there is no hope for reconciliation. You can expose the affair after the divorce is over.


What are you going to do? Are you going to wait to expose?
I can see where Dr H is going with this one, since you've waited awhile already, there's no harm in waiting until all the court stuff is done with. What timescale are you looking at now until it's all done?



Originally Posted by WierdSituation
Originally Posted by WierdSituation
Originally Posted by goody2shoes
If you are in the position to have an expert advise you, I think it is wise not to ignore that.

I get a feeling from some of your postings that make me wonder if your expectations of exposure are realistic. You also seem to be selective in what advise you follow and what actions to take. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I am drawing wrong conclusions from what I am reading. But it would certainly not harm to ask for directions again.

I wrote to Dr. Harley. I will let you know once I hear from him.

I got a response from Dr. Harley really quick. Here it is:

I'd follow the advice of your lawyer because he knows more about the risks of exposure in your case that I would. Your divorce should go to court as soon as possible, and he would know how the court would view your exposure. You may be better off without it before the divorce, especially if the divorce is soon and there is no hope for reconciliation. You can expose the affair after the divorce is over.

I agree 100%. You have nothing to gain from exposing before the settlement and everything to lose. Typically, we don't suggest following the typical advise not to expose from an attorney [they always say don't expose] but in this case, you should follow that advice!
Originally Posted by WierdSituation
The time zone difference complicates the exposure. I have read from a number of posters that they do regret not finishing the exposure within 1 or 2 hours. Some have mentioned success from posting on FB walls for about hour and then removing. Knowing WW and OM are hot heads and have large egos I find this extremely tempting; This would seriously be effective. Remember when he infringed in our marriage and I told them to stop and then they did it again. They do not listen or care.

Another poster had a very effective exposure by exposing in 3 overnights over the weekend - Friday, Saturday and Sunday nights - less than 72 hours. I am thinking of following this strategy since I cannot finish the exposure within 1 or 2 hours. I do not have all emails addresses and I will have to use FB for most of WW friends.

The main challenge is when to send it to Spouse of affair partner/OM.

Friday Overnight EST 12:00AM - 8:00AM = Saturday Evening Auckland 4PM - 12:00 AM
Creates a surprise and tsunami effect in the morning of WW
1. Send to our very close friends and family. The problem is WW's father wakes up at 1:00PM. He will see this 5 hours after WW has been notified.
2. Spouse of affair partner/OM - she will see it before she and OM go to sleep with OM getting a tsunami effect the following morning but then she will have told OM already. I can tell her to call WW at 2AM her time which will 10AM WW time.
2. Workplace exposure - they will see it on Sunday 7PM EST/Monday 11AM Auckland

Saturday Morning EST 8AM - 4PM = Sunday Night Auckland 12:00AM to 8:00 AM
Creates a surprise and tsunami effect in the morning of OM
1. send to 1 Elderly of affair partner. OM's parents are dead.
2. Facebook exposure of OM

Saturday Overnight EST 12:00AM - 8:00AM = Sunday Evening Auckland 4PM - 12:00 AM
Send to the rest of close friends and family.

Sunday Overnight EST 12:00AM - 8:00AM = Monday Evening Auckland 4PM - 12:00 AM
Send to rest of OM friends and Family

Converting Auckland Time to EST:
https://www.worldtimebuddy.com/new-zealand-auckland-to-est

Any gaps you see or ideas?

So, when you do decide to complete exposures, I would just keep it really, really simple.

All you need to do is use civil language, avoid too many paragraphs and tell as many people as possible that they had an affair. That's pretty much it.

I would tell people, directly in messages (not a huge fan of Facebook walls*) and send those messages out within the space of a few hours. It doesn't matter when people read them. Just do it quickly on your end. If it's a group message, and people contacting the affairees are saying stuff like " OMG EVERYONE knows!" then great, but don't sweat that bit too much. That bit is the job of others.

*it's fine, I guess, but you are not really talking *to* anyone specific on Facebook walls, whereas in messages you are talking to a selected person who is 'important in our lives' or 'I thought you should know this' it's a bit like telling people from a soap box in the park; I'm not exactly opposed though..

Originally Posted by indiegirl
I can see where Dr H is going with this one, since you've waited awhile already, there's no harm in waiting until all the court stuff is done with. What timescale are you looking at now until it's all done?
I have no idea so is this lawyer because no one knows what WW is thinking. I just pinged my lawyer. I am waiting for the response. She has been asked to have a lawyer since January and she just comes to the court without one. We haven been to court 4 times. The judge has shouted and warned at her to get a lawyer and that things will not go in her favor if she does not have one.
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by WierdSituation
Originally Posted by WierdSituation
Originally Posted by goody2shoes
If you are in the position to have an expert advise you, I think it is wise not to ignore that.

I get a feeling from some of your postings that make me wonder if your expectations of exposure are realistic. You also seem to be selective in what advise you follow and what actions to take. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I am drawing wrong conclusions from what I am reading. But it would certainly not harm to ask for directions again.

I wrote to Dr. Harley. I will let you know once I hear from him.

I got a response from Dr. Harley really quick. Here it is:

I'd follow the advice of your lawyer because he knows more about the risks of exposure in your case that I would. Your divorce should go to court as soon as possible, and he would know how the court would view your exposure. You may be better off without it before the divorce, especially if the divorce is soon and there is no hope for reconciliation. You can expose the affair after the divorce is over.

I agree 100%. You have nothing to gain from exposing before the settlement and everything to lose. Typically, we don't suggest following the typical advise not to expose from an attorney [they always say don't expose] but in this case, you should follow that advice!

Thank you Melodylane. I agree. I will head that advice.
Originally Posted by indiegirl
So, when you do decide to complete exposures, I would just keep it really, really simple.

All you need to do is use civil language, avoid too many paragraphs and tell as many people as possible that they had an affair. That's pretty much it.

I would tell people, directly in messages (not a huge fan of Facebook walls*) and send those messages out within the space of a few hours. It doesn't matter when people read them. Just do it quickly on your end. If it's a group message, and people contacting the affairees are saying stuff like " OMG EVERYONE knows!" then great, but don't sweat that bit too much. That bit is the job of others.

*it's fine, I guess, but you are not really talking *to* anyone specific on Facebook walls, whereas in messages you are talking to a selected person who is 'important in our lives' or 'I thought you should know this' it's a bit like telling people from a soap box in the park; I'm not exactly opposed though.

Thank you very much indiegirl. Amazing advice. You are WUNDERBAR. I will wait and expose after settlement. Yes, I will use direct FB messages and direct emails - talking *to* specific people. As for the Facebook walls I was thinking of doing it as an addition to the FB messages and emails. I was thinking Facebook Walls scare the **** of out the affairees. I would be if it was me. I will aim to do it in a few hours. The devil is in the detail. The time zone is challenging in terms which slot of hours I should pick for maximum effect.
Again, I am in the realm of personal opinion on this one but I disagree that Facebook walls are the scariest way to go: if they only HEAR what you are doing but can't SEE, that is scarier than something visible. It also dilutes the message that you are only targeting people because they are important.

If they can see it, It also means they have contact with you via Facebook and are not blocked; I think this is a terrible opportunity for comments/defences/attacks from them or from cronies. It's much cleaner and graceful to not engage with the waywards at all.

Attack and retreat. Don't stand there like a nelly waving a flag of where to attack you.

Though it may have been done, and done well; I don't think the advantages are always equal to the potential drawbacks.

There is the little matter too, that exposure does not aim to scare. You are informing people firstly, and letting natural consequences for the affairees follow. They *Do* have to know that it was you who exposed, and that you stand behind and own the decision to do so, but I think there are other ways to achieve that (simply telling them so).
Originally Posted by WierdSituation
Originally Posted by indiegirl
So, when you do decide to complete exposures, I would just keep it really, really simple.

All you need to do is use civil language, avoid too many paragraphs and tell as many people as possible that they had an affair. That's pretty much it.

I would tell people, directly in messages (not a huge fan of Facebook walls*) and send those messages out within the space of a few hours. It doesn't matter when people read them. Just do it quickly on your end. If it's a group message, and people contacting the affairees are saying stuff like " OMG EVERYONE knows!" then great, but don't sweat that bit too much. That bit is the job of others.

*it's fine, I guess, but you are not really talking *to* anyone specific on Facebook walls, whereas in messages you are talking to a selected person who is 'important in our lives' or 'I thought you should know this' it's a bit like telling people from a soap box in the park; I'm not exactly opposed though.

Thank you very much indiegirl. Amazing advice. You are WUNDERBAR. I will wait and expose after settlement. Yes, I will use direct FB messages and direct emails - talking *to* specific people. As for the Facebook walls I was thinking of doing it as an addition to the FB messages and emails. I was thinking Facebook Walls scare the **** of out the affairees. I would be if it was me. I will aim to do it in a few hours. The devil is in the detail. The time zone is challenging in terms which slot of hours I should pick for maximum effect.

I exposed in the middle of the night when everyone was asleep and a great many people were likely to rush off to work without reading messages in the morning. It was still very effective!
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Again, I am in the realm of personal opinion on this one but I disagree that Facebook walls are the scariest way to go: if they only HEAR what you are doing but can't SEE, that is scarier than something visible. It also dilutes the message that you are only targeting people because they are important.

If they can see it, It also means they have contact with you via Facebook and are not blocked; I think this is a terrible opportunity for comments/defences/attacks from them or from cronies. It's much cleaner and graceful to not engage with the waywards at all.

Attack and retreat. Don't stand there like a nelly waving a flag of where to attack you.

Though it may have been done, and done well; I don't think the advantages are always equal to the potential drawbacks.

There is the little matter too, that exposure does not aim to scare. You are informing people firstly, and letting natural consequences for the affairees follow. They *Do* have to know that it was you who exposed, and that you stand behind and own the decision to do so, but I think there are other ways to achieve that (simply telling them so).
Great explanation. I got it. Thank you so much.
Originally Posted by indiegirl
I exposed in the middle of the night when everyone was asleep and a great many people were likely to rush off to work without reading messages in the morning. It was still very effective!

I see. Weekends seem to be effective in the sense that people have time to talk about it and contact her also. On the other hand they maybe busy with activities and they are not at work.

Since this was a workpkace affair I sometimes think it could be better to expose during the day on a weekday and it will get people at work to talk to each other about he affair especially the crew that is still at the company. Maybe I am overthinking. I guess it is a decision between weekend and weekday.
You are indeed over thinking:)

That is not surprising though. You've had lots of time to think about exposure.

I would avoid going down the rabbit hole of 'what other people will Do.' Focus on your part when the time comes.
Originally Posted by indiegirl
You are indeed over thinking:)

That is not surprising though. You've had lots of time to think about exposure.

I would avoid going down the rabbit hole of 'what other people will Do.' Focus on your part when the time comes.
Thanks Indiegirl. I will do so. Always great advice. I really appreciate it. I am focusing on other things to get my life going. I will not think of exposure for now. I do not why she is delaying the divorce. The last 12 months have gone without anything achieved. Even the whole 2.5 years really. The main tangible danger I can guess of is she wants to accumulate funds to buy me out of our multifamily house. In any case I cannot think of what she is thinking.
This summer: she continues opposing everything that the children, my lawyer and myself have been suggesting. She also does not want kids to take tutoring classes that prepare them for 4th and 7th grades. The grades from these upcoming two grades are extremely important to get into top middle and high schools as there are the only ones considered. Kids have so much extra time even after being enrolled in many camps.

She continues to shout at the children's lawyer and my lawyer on calls.
How do you deal with a female who is using the system that favors females?

One of my biggest hurdle if not the only one in this divorce process has been the system that favors females. I know the courts where we live have been too lenient towards her and yes towards females. So far she has got away with too many things that men would never get away with. I wonder many times what to do. Sometimes I think I cannot beat the system.

Interesting... She is of South American origin and she never wanted to be called white. All of a sudden in this whole divorce process she has been writing down on papers that she is white when she always had put Latina/Hispanic. She is doing everything that the system will favor.
Parenting

I have tried to push my lawyer for full custody but he has said that sharing custody lets you not to get involved in court battles which will be expensive. Now after realizing what WW is he wrote...

If you cannot co-parent then so be it. So far, she has made it impossible. That puts us into a trial which is fine. We just need to be prepared with every document and factoid in chronological order for your anticipated testimony.�

It looks like this is where we are heading. I will start preparing the following
1. Powerpoint with a slide/slides for factoid and explanation
2. Written journal
3. Calender of events

Any tips / ideas on
1. What how to prepare for a trial?
2. How to help the lawyer?

I will not be surprised if WW says let us settle and not go for trial and. She waste my time so much. But I will prepare all out trial now.
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
What are you going to do? Are you going to wait to expose?

Brainhurts, I am going to wait to expose. Sorry, I had missed your questions.
Originally Posted by WierdSituation
Any tips / ideas on
1. What how to prepare for a trial?
2. How to help the lawyer?

1. Keep it simple. Judges are human. They do not want a long litany of stuff to sort through. By all means have your journal/calendar etc to hand (make copies) but do not use them unless you are asked. So for example, you might state that you are currently the primary custodial parent. If your wife challenges this statement, you quietly hand out the document that you have prepared which lists which days they have been with you. Otherwise don't.

2. Only bring up things that matter. Judge care about the division of assets and the welfare of the children so keep to those issues.

3. Go through everything your wife has said and (especially) written over the last few months with respect to the divorce and her post divorce plans. That will tell you what she is going to use against you in the trial. List each issue, refute each in turn for your lawyer. Keep it short, keep it organized. Don't guess.

Originally Posted by living_well
Originally Posted by WierdSituation
Any tips / ideas on
1. What how to prepare for a trial?
2. How to help the lawyer?

1. Keep it simple. Judges are human. They do not want a long litany of stuff to sort through. By all means have your journal/calendar etc to hand (make copies) but do not use them unless you are asked. So for example, you might state that you are currently the primary custodial parent. If your wife challenges this statement, you quietly hand out the document that you have prepared which lists which days they have been with you. Otherwise don't.

2. Only bring up things that matter. Judge care about the division of assets and the welfare of the children so keep to those issues.

3. Go through everything your wife has said and (especially) written over the last few months with respect to the divorce and her post divorce plans. That will tell you what she is going to use against you in the trial. List each issue, refute each in turn for your lawyer. Keep it short, keep it organized. Don't guess.
Thank you living_well. Great advice. I am following it. So much has happened in the past and your advice helps me to focus on the important things.
Update:
I need to give things I need the lawyer to subpoena on OM asap. What things can be subpoena on OM? Any other ideas that my lawyer can use OM?
Lawyer wants to chase the OM away and stop the affair. He said we will subpoena OM. He is even also enthusiastic, super confident and positive about going to press to expose everything that has bad things that WW has caused in this divorce after we reach divorce settlement. He knows how to go about it. He is not doing this to rack my bills. He is sincere.

I was thinking of the following from my lack of experience
1. credit card and debit transactions for the 7 months when WW and OM were active in Sydney
2. Linkedin emails between WW and OM since 2012 till now
3. Gmail emails between WW and OM since 2012 till now
4. Texts and Calls between WW and OM since 2012 till now
5. Money transfers
6. work and clients that they have done.

I was thinking that if the subpoenas could contain language/ topics: money laundering, adultery, family destruction, children�s welfare, children abandonment, marriage infringement, immoral behavior.

Any other language that can be used?
Update 1: Too strange for my take.
A few weeks ago my wife called ACS - New York City Administration for Children's Services. They came to my apartment. hey said they did not see anything wrong. They said if they find something wrong on my side they will take the children away from both of us. If they find something wrong on her side they will take the children from both of us. The investigation will go for 2 months. T

Strange is that she called ACS and they can take the kids from us. Why would she call them?
Does she want to lose the kids?
My lawyer said it is her who called and she called because she is losing in court.
My wife told my neighbors(friends) she ended up befriending with that she called them. Remember those neighbors she started making friends with knowing they were my new friends. The neighbor(woman) told me. The neighbor was extremely disappointed and disgusted that she called.

Update 2: This one makes me sick, depressed and not able to sleep. Finding out more on the affair. Any advice on how to deal with finding more secrets.
We subpoenaed the credit care statements she was refusing to give the court for the 3 years. They came a week ago. Shocking is not a word to describe them. They show that she was going to the suburb that OW was living. 2 hours away. She would go there mostly on weekends. They show where she paid bills - restaurants, bars, ferry tickets. Bill amounts show it is definitely for two people. She had always said said she never hangout with him and had never gone to his hood, and in fact she hung out with him the moment she got to Australia. After 6 years, I find all this information.

Update 3: The wait to expose is unbearable and excruciating. Have you heard of anyone who has waited for more than 3 years to expose? It may even tale 4 years. Maybe it will never happen. The benefit is that more info is coming out. I am not sure if it will help in court. She lied to the forensics that she was only in Australia for 2 months when she was there for 7 months.
ACS - New York City Administration for Children's Services called to inform me that there was no evidence found against me and the case has been closed. WW has tried all sorts of ways. I am preparing for the trial. Only 3 weeks left. I have to put everything together to reduce costs - my lawyer's suggestions. He will then review. Meanwhile I will start making a list of points for the trial and documents to be referenced. It has to be the point because the judge does not like over litigation. Please help me as I get this done.

BTW. Ha! WW has told my friends(that neighboring couple she befriended) that I do not care about kids. Little did WW know that my friends knows very well that i care for my children.

BTW. Ha! WW had kids's for sleepover and they watched sexy/porn on smartphones while she was sleeping. Parents are furious. The word got to the school through one child. Principal, teachers, counselors and many parents know. I only got to know this about 2 weeks ago - this mean 8 months after it happened. Lawyer wants me call some of the parents to testify as long as they do not turn on me.
Stay focused. Three weeks to go. Take care of your health. Once you get some relief from all this stress, you could be susceptible to viruses and the like.
Thank you nmwb77. You just put me on the roll and I am focusing more than ever. Thanks for the health warning. It had not even crossed my mind.
Dear All,

Thank you all. You have all been wonderful in keeping me in straight line, giving me advice on my thoughts (wild or unheard of and over thinking) and avoiding blunders(driven by emotions or not) through this journey. Our trial starts on Wednesday. i am nervous because this is my first trial ever, I do not know if she has something she may pull against me, and I do not know what decision the judge will take. The judge said when things go to trial he can decide either way and each of us has to live with it no matter. Scary as hell but I have to be prepared for any outcome and not be affected by it.

We had a court meeting a week ago with judge wanting us not to go trial and settle. WW refused to settle. This means going for sole custody. The lawyer believes this judge maybe leaning for a 50/50 custody. The one thing that maybe a deal breaker according to my lawyer is the time she spent in with OM while I had the kids alone for 7 months.The judge asked her to find lawyer again. He said to her that "mum you are sick".

WW has tried to sought social organizations without the court to build a case against me. Another story based on frivolous things.

OM was subpoenaed for contract work(records) he is working with WW because WW is saying she is not earning any money. WW says she earned only 20K in 2017. I do not know if this has made OM feels some heat or is scared. OM has sent a letter through his lawyer not wanting to release the records. Made stupid excuses that it is cross border yada, yada. Basically trying to avoid the request. I will talk to my lawyer as to what is next. I am wondering if to pursue it further and also if WW should be subpoenaed for that too.

Other companies have been subpoenaed. One has replied showing she earned from them. WW asked one company not to hand over the info. My lawyer said this is very good because it will show the judge that she has been lying about finances and that she is hiding something - the implications are more powerful than the records.

Her brother and his wife have been subpoenaed separately and jointly for the records concerning our funds WW stole and send them. I am hoping this may scare them.

In addition to trying to prove that she is earning I believe the subpoenas are shining the light on her character to her peers. It will also help is she says wants to buy me out on the house and my lawyer will say you said you did not have money.

Your thoughts please or advice?
Update: we had 3 days of trial of which she brought 3 witnesses - nanny, children's therapist and her therapist. It backfired. There were lies and cross examination revealed her cruelty, lies and manipulation. My lawyer said we came out better than her and we did very well.

We will have 6 more days of trial in May/June. The trial should have been over within 3 days but she applying legal abuse for me to be to be poor. She does not have a lawyer.

For those who hav been bankrupted by divorce what strategies and actions did you employ to come out of this financial mess? What careers are high paying that can take me out of this. Sometimes I think of going back to school. At 50 it is scary.

What is happening here is domestic violence according to DV therapist who has been treating me b cause of WW' s many forms if DV on me.

What is hard: being affected by her constant abuse tactics that they get in the way if my life. Any tips to sway these out my life? Even now she a uses through her emails and texts. Sometimes I wish there was no contact.

House: a woman who has gone through divorce has informed me that I should have the court not sell the house and that I should give the house to the kids through a trust. She said that WW would be driven nuts by this. She said that is what her ex did to her though for her she did not care about the money. Do you think this strategy would work? Selling the house does not make financial sense.
Originally Posted by WierdSituation
For those who hav been bankrupted by divorce what strategies and actions did you employ to come out of this financial mess? What careers are high paying that can take me out of this. Sometimes I think of going back to school. At 50 it is scary.

Yes, always scary. No need to pay your lawyers until the end and even then they will settle for a smaller number. Don't worry about that, just concentrate on getting yourself and your children sorted out in the best possible way.

Originally Posted by WierdSituation
What is hard: being affected by her constant abuse tactics that they get in the way if my life. Any tips to sway these out my life? Even now she a uses through her emails and texts. Sometimes I wish there was no contact.

Find an intermediary. Ask them only to pass on what you need to know. She does not need to know you have a screener.

Originally Posted by WierdSituation
House: a woman who has gone through divorce has informed me that I should have the court not sell the house and that I should give the house to the kids through a trust. She said that WW would be driven nuts by this. She said that is what her ex did to her though for her she did not care about the money. Do you think this strategy would work? Selling the house does not make financial sense.

If not selling the house is the right thing, don't sell it. But it is illegal to dispose of a marital asset during the divorce proceedings. The court could void the transfer into a trust and you would look bad. Tell the judge that keeping the house is important for the children.
Thank you living_well. Pardon for not posting early enough. I will do so. I will be patient.


Very good point. I will start searching for an intermediary. In NYC it is very tough to find someone because people are always in transit and are too busy. I will also run this through my lawyer to avoid her accusing me in court that I do not want to co-parent.

Yes, I meant to give the kids through court and creating an iron clad trust that WW or I do not have power over it. I really like what you said I should tell the judge. Bravo. What I do not know is whether WW will agree to give to the kids.
Originally Posted by WierdSituation
Thank you living_well. Pardon for not posting early enough. I will do so. I will be patient.
smile


Originally Posted by WierdSituation
Very good point. I will start searching for an intermediary. In NYC it is very tough to find someone because people are always in transit and are too busy. I will also run this through my lawyer to avoid her accusing me in court that I do not want to co-parent.
No need for this to be someone local. What about a sibling or parent? They will read and filter back. If WW is using text messaging, auto forward them. If WW is phoning you don't pick up her calls. Set up Google Voice as your voice mail and forward the ones from her unopened.

I would not tell the lawyer. He or she will not understand and it will be seamless if you do it right. Nobody needs to know this is happening. Don't tell your children either in case they say something in front of WW.

Thank you. This sounds really good.Let me start the search.
Your thoughts please: She has been losing in court. Now she is caving in. She saw that she is going to lose and she wants 50-50 custody now. I also feel she wants to save face from relatives and friends she had lied to because she is likely to lose custody. My lawyer says she is not likely to get custody. The problem is the legal fees for are too high and I cannot afford anymore. This is the only reason I will not able to pursue for sole custody. It does not feel right not to pursue because of this reason.


The conversation that WW had with my lawyer resulted in the following broad strokes:
Regular Parenting Time: 2-2-5 remains in place
Child Support: Waived by both sides
Spousal Support: Waived by both sides
Custody: Joint Legal with the following spheres of influence: Education goes to father; recreation goes to mother; health and medical is joint with a parent coordinator. Each party is still obligated to inform the other party of all events and issues.
Holidays and vacations: Not discussed, but I think next summer should match this summer and the holidays can be alternated.
House: Sold
Assets, bank accounts, reimbursement of funds, legal fees: Not discussed
Liabilities: Mortgage is the only one and that is paid off
Insurance: Not discussed.

Lawyer said I am not obligated to settle but I should try. He also says he understands that it is impossible to coparent wit her and he knows it too. Issue is legal fees. She does not have a lawyer and she is also racking my bill by talking and emailing to my lawyer, and my lawyer having to educate her.
...in addition my lawyer wrote to me "I understand and do not doubt your concerns. I also understand not settling. I just want you to have the option. One aspect of the settlement does parse out education for you and puts health largely in the hands of a parent coordinator."
Originally Posted by WierdSituation
She does not have a lawyer and she is also racking my bill by talking and emailing to my lawyer, and my lawyer having to educate her.

Why are you allowing this? She is sucking you dry and your children and you will pay for it by your losing the full custody.
Originally Posted by Sunnytimes
Originally Posted by WierdSituation
She does not have a lawyer and she is also racking my bill by talking and emailing to my lawyer, and my lawyer having to educate her.

Why are you allowing this? She is sucking you dry and your children and you will pay for it by your losing the full custody.

Thank you Sunnytimes for responding.

The judge asked her to get a lawyer but she has not done so. This has been going on for 2 years. What can I do about this? The judge cannot force her to find a lawyer. Should I just settle for her proposal?

Yesterday I told my lawyer to disengage her "racking my bill by talking and emailing to my lawyer, and my lawyer having to educate her." and he said he will disengage. he said if I agree to the proposal he can try what is called bad faith litigation where we will ask her to pay for part of the fees.

Originally Posted by Sunnytimes
[quote=WierdSituation] ...your children and you will pay for it by your losing the full custody.
Could you explain this part "by your losing full custody?
Originally Posted by WierdSituation
because she is likely to lose custody. My lawyer says she is not likely to get custody. The problem is the legal fees for are too high and I cannot afford anymore. This is the only reason I will not able to pursue for sole custody. It does not feel right not to pursue because of this reason.

Originally Posted by Sunnytimes
Originally Posted by WierdSituation
She does not have a lawyer and she is also racking my bill by talking and emailing to my lawyer, and my lawyer having to educate her.

Why are you allowing this? She is sucking you dry and your children and you will pay for it by your losing the full custody.

Originally Posted by WierdSituation
Could you explain this part "by your losing full custody?

I was responding to your comments that are bolded, above.


Thank you Sunnytimes.

I have decided to continue with the trial. I have not informed my lawyer yet. My lawyer hinted that I should just finish off with the trail.
Your lawyer should NOT be educating her. He should be telling her that he represents you and, if she doesn't understand something or needs a lawyer to explain anything to her, she needs to hire her own lawyer. If she can't afford one, she can call legal aid, look for pro bono representation through the bar association, or find a legal clinic to represent her.
Please listen to Brits Brat, he is a corporate attorney.
Originally Posted by Brits_Brat
Your lawyer should NOT be educating her. He should be telling her that he represents you and, if she doesn't understand something or needs a lawyer to explain anything to her, she needs to hire her own lawyer. If she can't afford one, she can call legal aid, look for pro bono representation through the bar association, or find a legal clinic to represent her.

Thank you. My lawyer has disengaged from her. It has been very quiet which is good. My lawyer told me WW has been using a ghost lawyer and the judge is aware of it. He told me that whoever the ghost lawyer is he/she is very bad.

Effort to put our 4 story brownstone house in a trust:
WW also wrote a motion requesting the state to pay for her legal fees to the children's lawyer. The judge rejected it because we have property. The same reason he rejected to give her legal aid.

I proposed to the judge that we should put the house in a trust where she or me do not have any influence. The house would generate $4K per month and in 16 years after the mortgage is paid off it would generate $20K per month. This would be a good amount for children's college loans, our living expenses. The 4K would go to an escrow. WW would get half sent to her account. The other half would be sent to me. After our deaths the children would inherit the house putting them at a really great advantage.

The judge rejected this because of the motion she had written asking for the state to pay her legal fees. In addition my lawyer said the judge does not want any work on the trust. The case is already too long and complicated for the judge and he does not want any more work. He threatened to put the house in sherrif's hands to sell it. Lawyer told me the judge can do that and once done it is worst thing ever because the house price would be nothing. Now my lawyer has said we should not bring up the trust thing to the judge again.

I had proposed to WW to move out out of the house because I cannot trust her. She moved to the unilaterally and has cooked the expenses, never told me of any repairs, never gave me any income from the tenants and many other things. She said she wanted to stay in the house for free till the mortgage is paid off(16 years) in exchanged for maintenance( ha, bad news). if she had moved out the trust would have worked. In NYC people move into different apartments very easily. She was in an apartment before she moved into the house.
Originally Posted by happyheart
Please listen to Brits Brat, he is a corporate attorney.

Thanks. I will do so.
Originally Posted by WierdSituation
I proposed to the judge that we should put the house in a trust where she or me do not have any influence. The house would generate $4K per month and in 16 years after the mortgage is paid off it would generate $20K per month. This would be a good amount for children's college loans, our living expenses. The 4K would go to an escrow. WW would get half sent to her account. The other half would be sent to me. After our deaths the children would inherit the house putting them at a really great advantage.

Drop the house, you need to concentrate 100% on custody. You can replace a house but not time with your children. You should be pushing for full custody. The house will almost certainly need to be sold.

If your wife wants to settle without a trial, ask her to sit down with both you and your lawyer and hammer out a settlement to take to the judge. You will have the huge advantage of knowing her weaknesses and can really push this. Take careful notes at the meeting, let your lawyer do the talking (carefully briefed by you ahead of time of course). Then you draw up the agreement. If she backs out, the judge may give you this settlement anyway.

Lawyers have a horrible habit of running up bills by talking to the other side if you let them so don't let yours do that except when you are present.
Thank you living_well. Wow, great advice. I have told my lawyer that we should concentrate on custody. He keeps saying we need to send a stipulation that the house is going to be sold otherwise the house will be given to the sheriff to sell of which it wil have no value. I will tell him that we should not talk about the house unless the judge asks about it. Only custody.

Concerning settlement parenting with her is impossible. The settlement she wants now is 50/50 and no one pays child support. It is because she has been losing in court. At the same it is impossible to parent with her. She has made it very difficult to parent together.

Yes, my lawyer agreed that he wil not talk to her when I am not present. This piece of advice really really really helped. He even said she called and he did not answer. He will not call her back. He said he is not answering her emails. This is such a great relief. I am very happy.
Best of luck and let us know how it is going.
I will. The forum has been very helpful.
Update:

1. What should I do about the court case being dragged on forever and losing money and accumulating large debt? How do you survive this?
2. Should I give up on the marriage?
2. Also should I move on?
3. Also should I start dating?
4. I success the best revenge?

The court case is dragging. She has been dragging it. The trial started in Feb and since then it has not continued. she testified in Feb and has not done her testimony. She still has to continue. All the court dates since then have been taken by her bringing up useless stuff. I do not know why the judge, lawyers let this happen. December dates were cancelled because the father of the children's lawyer died. Now she will continue her testimony next year about a year after she paused.

What is this? Is this a way for lawyers to take money? The judge just shouts at her but does not do anything. It is horrible. I cannot take it. Why does the court let this happen when they see that I am suffering, the kids are suffering, etc.This system!!!! What can I do? My lawyer says it is gong fast but I do not see it that way. He says I am winning. In Feb it will be 4 years in court.

I do not feel like I do not want to be back with her after all what she has done in court and the lies she has brought in. She has bankrupted me and she wants to take me to death. How can I be with someone who has done and is doing this to me. 4 years of separation. There is no hope.

I have not dated anyone. Should I start dating? 4 years of holding someone's life is too long. Should I move on?

Should I work to succeed? Will she feel defeated or jealousy if I become successful after she has made me poor?

4 years of no affair exposure is also not helping me move on.

I also would like to expose the money stealing part, the violence abuse from her and the violence abuse from her mother, her brother and his wife acting as accomplices in the money theft receiving our funds from her into their bank accounts.

Quote
1. What should I do about the court case being dragged on forever and losing money and accumulating large debt? How do you survive this?
Cannot help with that one, no legal expertise here.
Quote
2. Should I give up on the marriage?
I remember dr Harley telling you that your chances of recovering the marriage were not so good anyway, even without an active affair. Do you still want recovery of the marriage?
Quote
2. Also should I move on?
What do you consider moving on? You should organize your life to make a good future for you and your children, wether or not she is in it. You can only control your part.
Quote
3. Also should I start dating?[quote]
Are you divorced? Do you want to date because it makes you feel better, or do you want to look for someone to possibly spend your life with? What do you have to offer if you are still in an ugly divorce? Finish this before moving on to another woman and consider what you have to offer, not just what you want.
[quote]4. I success the best revenge?
Do you want to expose because of revenge or because of recovery? Correct me if I'm wrong. My senses tell me you want revenge bad.
Better to focus on your life, carreer and how to be a good father and role model for your children. Focussing on revenge will not make you a pleasant person. Focussing on a good future might.
Do you ask when to start dating because you've met someone or because you feel lonely?
Thank you for the advice goody2shoes. This helps. I was not able to make decisions on my own.

Originally Posted by goody2shoes
I remember dr Harley telling you that your chances of recovering the marriage were not so good anyway, even without an active affair. Do you still want recovery of the marriage?
Yes, Dr. said so. I am not sure if I want to recover it. I feel conflicted because of what she has put the kids and I through. It does not seem to make sense to recover it.


Quote
What do you consider moving on? You should organize your life to make a good future for you and your children, wether or not she is in it. You can only control your part.
By moving on I meant to start thinking that there is no future with her - meaning no recovery of marriage. Thank you. Advice well taken. I will do so.


Quote
Are you divorced? Do you want to date because it makes you feel better, or do you want to look for someone to possibly spend your life with? What do you have to offer if you are still in an ugly divorce? Finish this before moving on to another woman and consider what you have to offer, not just what you want.

Not divorced. The court has not ended. To make myself feel better or spend life with - both or either. Really, financially I do not have something to offer. Any suggestions on what may qualify as something to offer? When people ask me and I tell them that I have not seen anyone since separation they get shocked. I have to say that I know who have dated before divorce has ended broke up, are breaking up or not having good relationships. I tell some the same advice I get here not to be involved with anyone before divorce has ended. Sometimes I feel like I am getting old or missing out.

OK, I will finish the divorce.

Quote
Do you want to expose because of revenge or because of recovery? Correct me if I'm wrong. My senses tell me you want revenge bad.
Better to focus on your life, carreer and how to be a good father and role model for your children. Focussing on revenge will not make you a pleasant person. Focussing on a good future might.

First it is to avoid isolation from friends as Dr, Harley had advised me. Right now I do not get calls or emails from friends or people I thought were good friends. I am isolated. Of course I want her to be accountable because she has lied to all friends, family, etc. Truly there is an element of wanting to stop her from lying and for the world to know the truth.

I will focus on the elements you mentioned.
Originally Posted by goody2shoes
Do you ask when to start dating because you've met someone or because you feel lonely?
I have not met anyone. I have not even looked for one. Sometimes I get a sex urge. Maybe I feel lonely - but I am not sure if I feel lonely. It is also feels like 4 years is too long.
Update:
I am having a hard time with this case because It is making me difficult to do any work or anything. It has held my life.
Any advice?

We are still in court. She keeps lying every time we appear in court. Some times they catch her. I have spent hundreds of thousands dollars.
I heard from an ex divorce attorney that NY divorce leaves people in hundreds of thousands of debt and that lawyers are there to take your money. At the same time she says stick to a lawyer since your case should be about to end. 4.5 years gone now. We do zoom court calls and she always brings lies. She still does not have a lawyer. I have told the my lawyer and the children's lawyer but they seem to be interested in money only but does not make her accountable and seem to be happy that the case is not ending. The court is not helping either.
Any advice?

WW and OM are commenting and liking each other's posts on Linkedin. OM is married.

Will exposure do anything to kill their affair after all these years and then I will be exposing after all these years(on divorce settlement? It is unsettling.



Hi WeirdSituation,

I read your original posts a couple of years ago and am sorry to hear this is still going on. After almost 4 years of these divorce proceedings and no change from her, this would seem to confirm Dr. Harley's earlier assessment that there is not much hope at this point. 4 years of separation does seem a long, long time, especially if the affair has also been going on for 4 years with the same OM during the separation.

Have you secured custody to the best of your ability? Can you ask your lawyer to wrap this entire proceeding up ASAP? You seem to be stuck and I do not see how you can move forward in your life until this is done and you are divorced. If there is any hope to rekindle your marriage, the same hope will there after divorce. But without finalizing the divorce you will remain stuck in limbo.

On exposing further at this late date, did you not already do a limited exposure to your/her family in the beginning? Do your kids know what is going on?

I have not secured custody yet. We are still in court. She keeps dragging the case with lies. I have asked my lawyer to wrap it up. He always says that "Cases in NYC take long, I have seen cases that go for 100 days. Our case is going fast." This is not what I see. This is sweet talk to rack up bills.

We also have a multifamily house and I do not know if the lawyer is after that for his benefit? Do you thunk lawyers are for selling houses to gain financially on their behalf?

I have told the children and my 2 siblings and 1 relative in talking but not with the exposure letter. This was before I discovered this forum. After I discovered it I put it on hold to follow the guidelines of exposure. I cannot wait to do the exposure. This wait is killing me. I do not know what exposure will do as she has been lying to all people in the last 4.5 years and has developed relationships with these people.

What will exposure to the truth do to her relationships?

What do you think exposure will accomplish at this point other than not being isolated further by friends who have already isolated me for these years?

Would I need these friends anyway?

It looks like there may not be any benefits for exposure. I do not know.
Any thoughts?

Anyone ever dealt or seen exposure after many years?

OM is married. His wife may not even care because she has been gas lighted all these years. What to do?

I have too many questions about my exposure because it is a unique situation.

I do not know what faith I should have in exposure at this point. Please help. My head is struggling massively with this.
...BTW, our son chipped his tooth again this week while he was in my custody. WW refused to give me the health insurance information of our son. I called the children's lawyer(she) who then called WW. WW refused to give the lawyer the info. The lawyer then wrote to the court stating that WW has refused to give father and her asking and asked for a conference call. We did the call the following day. The judge shouted at WW and there was a court order for her to give us the copies of insurance card but she has not. Instead she call our son to give him the insurance number only using him as an assistant

Basically she refuse to get our son treated by refusing to give us the info. After 3 days our son was finally treated.
WW also called for a conference call with the court saying that the daughter wants to spent more time with her. She told the judge she wanted to file a motion. She also said the children have said they do not want to be represented by the children's lawyer anymore. Ha! Manipulation, I think it is. She also said that the children do not want to live together. the judge shouted at her and dismissed her.

But who knows. She may file a motion for the daughter.
Originally Posted by WierdSituation
I have not secured custody yet. We are still in court. She keeps dragging the case with lies. I have asked my lawyer to wrap it up. He always says that "Cases in NYC take long, I have seen cases that go for 100 days. Our case is going fast." This is not what I see. This is sweet talk to rack up bills.

My divorce was in NY. It started in 2007 and was finalised in early 2012. NY is a 'family friendly' state meaning that the judges are not under pressure to complete cases. I found that it was very important to control the process, not let the lawyer make the decisions. In my case that meant I told him we should go for summary judgement which is something you might look into. Essentially you say that everything has been addressed so 'end it here'. If your soon to be ex does not have representation, on no account should she have contact with your lawyer unless you are present.

Originally Posted by WierdSituation
We also have a multifamily house and I do not know if the lawyer is after that for his benefit? Do you thunk lawyers are for selling houses to gain financially on their behalf?

Lawyers are paid by the hour. If the divorce requires the house be sold then you will have to comply with that but the divorce lawyer will not be involved.

Originally Posted by WierdSituation
What do you think exposure will accomplish at this point other than not being isolated further by friends who have already isolated me for these years?

Would I need these friends anyway?

It looks like there may not be any benefits for exposure. I do not know.
Any thoughts?

Didn't Dr Harley advise you to wait on exposure? If he did, maybe go back to him with this question.
Thank you. 5 years! NY. Wow! Somehow it was comforting hear that I am not the only one. Could you share or advice someone on what they can do during these five years or what you wish you could have done? Didn't it stop your life? How did you manage in life? Hobbies, career, etc. I am going to read your thread. Many people say you cannot move on with your life till divorce is done.

I will look into the summary judgement. What is summary judgement?

My lawyer is suggesting we sell the house and then he puts the proceeds from the house sale into his escrow account. I am thinking that if he sees that there is money he will try not to stop case for me to keep paying him.

Yes, Dr. advised me to wait till the divorce settlement. I will ask him when the divorce settlement is done and it is time to expose. My plane us to expose on the day after settlement.
Originally Posted by WierdSituation
Thank you. 5 years! NY. Wow! Somehow it was comforting hear that I am not the only one. Could you share or advice someone on what they can do during these five years or what you wish you could have done? Didn't it stop your life? How did you manage in life? Hobbies, career, etc. I am going to read your thread. Many people say you cannot move on with your life till divorce is done.

I don't think there is anything about this on my thread but I can't remember. I did three things; a dog, volunteering and yoga. All three were equally important. I work freelance with computers. My ex husband did everything he could to prevent the divorce. He was a serial cheater and his line with the ladies was to say that he could not leave me because it would be too traumatic for me. So divorce would have rather spoiled his fun. Of course I found all that out afterwards.

Originally Posted by WierdSituation
I will look into the summary judgement. What is summary judgement?

You are saying to the judge that everything is sorted out, nothing more to discuss and therefore the case should be closed. The divorce should follow about 30 days later. Obviously this cannot happen until everything is sorted out!

Originally Posted by WierdSituation
My lawyer is suggesting we sell the house and then he puts the proceeds from the house sale into his escrow account. I am thinking that if he sees that there is money he will try not to stop case for me to keep paying him.

Presume lawyer is suggesting that the house be sold because it is a marital asset? If neither side can afford to buy the other's half share meaning that you know for sure that it has to be sold then the only issue is whether now is a good time to sell. If you sell, the idea of putting the money into an escrow is a good one. That way the proceeds can be divided in a way that gives each party a fair share. That may not be 50:50 because (for example) there may be other non retirement assets and liabilities.

The case will end when you take control. You need to know exactly what you are paying for and what the next step should be. You are employing him not the other way around. The fact that there are liquid assets makes no difference. He will get paid. You can generally negotiate your final settlement with your lawyer.

Originally Posted by WierdSituation
Yes, Dr. advised me to wait till the divorce settlement. I will ask him when the divorce settlement is done and it is time to expose. My plane us to expose on the day after settlement.

Then that is what you should do unless things have changed at your end.
Originally Posted by living_well
I don't think there is anything about this on my thread but I can't remember. I did three things; a dog, volunteering and yoga. All three were equally important. I work freelance with computers. My ex husband did everything he could to prevent the divorce. He was a serial cheater and his line with the ladies was to say that he could not leave me because it would be too traumatic for me. So divorce would have rather spoiled his fun. Of course I found all that out afterwards.

I just finished reading your thread. You chose three things that are really good because one can find energy to do them and is capable to deliver. I am worried because I feel I cannot seem to concentrate on career part and path. I do not why WW is dragging the divorce. I only suspect that she wants me to be bankrupt which I am now and she maybe doing this to save money since she has been staying at our house for free for 4.5 years. She will probably buy me out or buy something right away.

Originally Posted by living_well
You are saying to the judge that everything is sorted out, nothing more to discuss and therefore the case should be closed. The divorce should follow about 30 days later. Obviously this cannot happen until everything is sorted out!

The house, finances and custody are not yet sorted out. WW is dragging the trial. It is like she does not want the trial to end. Her testimony was 1. 5 years ago(February 2019) but she never finished because she brings up stupid things every time we go to court- basically postponing her testimony. We are stuck. Now with COVID we have had conference calls only. When the court opens that is when the trial could resume. 2 judges died because of COVID. The courts are terrified.

Originally Posted by living_well
Presume lawyer is suggesting that the house be sold because it is a marital asset? If neither side can afford to buy the other's half share meaning that you know for sure that it has to be sold then the only issue is whether now is a good time to sell. If you sell, the idea of putting the money into an escrow is a good one. That way the proceeds can be divided in a way that gives each party a fair share. That may not be 50:50 because (for example) there may be other non retirement assets and liabilities.

One ex divorce lawyer said there is no need to sell the house before the custody is done. I will try to get another opinion form another lawyer. Yes, because it is marital asset. Maybe. But he says so I can have money and pay him his bill. I can afford without the money for now. I can pay him after settlement. I do ot the hurry since we had agreed that I will pay after settlement.

Got it on the escrow part.

Originally Posted by living_well
The case will end when you take control. You need to know exactly what you are paying for and what the next step should be. You are employing him not the other way around. The fact that there are liquid assets makes no difference. He will get paid. You can generally negotiate your final settlement with your lawyer.

This hit home. The courts and the lawyers and her are in control. When the court opens I can push for this. I have pushed that she finishes her testimony but the court keeps giving her time to bring other stupid things and lies. My lawyer goes with it. What should I do now? Should I raise my hand and tell the judge to bring the case to end. The ex divorce told me not to do that because the judges do not like it. Let the lawyer do the talking: the client is emotional. But then my lawyer is not voicing my concern. I really do not know how to take control.

Originally Posted by living_well
Then that is what you should do unless things have changed at your end.
OK.

Of course follow Dr. Harley's advice on when/how to expose as he is the expert! If you have new questions, write him back. You could even appear on the radio show if willing, why not?

On your NY legal situation, living_well is giving you excellent advice. I am not an attorney, but have worked with and hired many dozens. In my own experience with lawyers I think it is important to keep in mind that they work for you and represent you as noted above. Has the lawyer gamed this out for you? What is the best case, worst case, and most reasonable expected outcome if you request settlement now (as soon as Covid allows)? Is that acceptable?

Sure the other side/your wife can play games and drag it out, but you said she has no representation. On your side there should be a clear legal road-map and an expected endpoint of any legal proceeding (unless your plan is to stall - which is also a valid strategy if you want to postpone a divorce - but you do not, although that may be your wife's strategy). Tell your attorney your concerns. Ask him to re-explain his strategy. Tell him you are exhausted and need this to close. Have him game out for you the outcomes so you are aware of the risks. Then tell him to execute and get it done as soon as the courts reopen.

Your wife seems to not be happy with the way the custody situation is going from what you wrote, but she seems happy with the free rent. I would also guess if the OM is still with his wife then her future with him is also uncertain in the back of her mind. She may be stalling because now all of it is better for her than what comes after this thing is done. She has nothing to lose by stalling.
Originally Posted by Blackhawk
there should be a clear legal road-map and an expected endpoint of any legal proceeding (unless your plan is to stall - which is also a valid strategy if you want to postpone a divorce - but you do not, although that may be your wife's strategy). Tell your attorney your concerns. Ask him to re-explain his strategy. Tell him you are exhausted and need this to close. Have him game out for you the outcomes so you are aware of the risks. Then tell him to execute and get it done as soon as the courts reopen.

Yes yes and yes! Use this interregnum to strategise with your lawyer. Make sure you are crystal clear that you are the one who will be making the decisions, not him.
Thank Blackhawk and living_well. I really appreciate it. I am sorry for the late reply. i have been thinking.

Great. I will contact Dr Harley. Radio? I will see. A little nervous.

The lawyers says there is no way she will get custody. He thinks we are a good position because WW is crazy and has been losing in court. The best case is I get sole custody. The worst case is that I lose custody. Since we are in trial these are the only options. Who knows, if the judge will give 50-50 custody.

I do not want to stall the divorce. I wanted it finished 3.5 years ago. Actually form day 1 I wanted it finished.

The legal road map is somehow clear:
1. Let her finish her testimony when the courts open.
2. My examines her. It will take 1 hour.
3. I testify for 1.5 hours
4. WW examines me.

Next: 5. Finances and house.

The process is interrupted by WW bringing lies and other things totaling the trial. I have told my lawyer to tell the judge what she is doing and that we need to wrap it up but he does not . Instead he and the children’s lawyer seems tone happy because they get money from a prolonged case. I am at the point where I just want to raise my hand and tell the judge that I have spent this much in legal fees, etc. and can you help us wra this case up. What do you think?

I will tell my lawyers my concerns. In fact I have told him many times but he ignores it saying it takes this long - some case have give for 100 days. He says our case is actually going well and fast.

I will write to the lawyer again and ask for the strategy. I am composing an email that will be more of a final ask.
The draft for the lawyer. Could you help me refine it? Too much emotions for me. After I will also ask the ex-divorce lawyer to look at it before I send it.

Hi Lawyer,


Can you re-explain your strategy? I am exhausted and need this to close. Please game it out for me so I am aware if the risks. Please execute and get it done as soon as the courts open. We go to court without strategy and WW has strategies and we just allow ourselves to follow and cannot sop her.

1. On our side there should be a clear legal road-map and an expected endpoint of any legal proceeding.
2. Nothing should be brought it up till she finished her testimony.
3. If she brings up anything please tell the judge that she has been doing this for ever and she has never finished her testimony she started 1.5 years. We have had enough. My clients has spent $360000.00 on legal fess and forensics and others included.
My concerns are:
1. Since we started working together you have kept saying if you want to get custody and finish the trial add another $20000. I have kept doing but we never are not getting to the end.
2. You have not been able to stop WWs frivolous tactics
3. You have not addressed to the judge that we need to get her to do finish the testimony though I have asked you many times.
4. You have not addressed to the judge that this has become expansive for me and I cannot afford to this anymore though I have asked you many times.
5. She is having fun saying she defeating you as lawyers and giving you a hard time.
6. She is staying at the house (4.5 years) not paying rent and you have not addressed it. I need the funds and I need to pay you.
7. She does not have a lawyer and is not paying legal fees.
8. Have her pay half the legal fees.
9. We deal with the house and after I have finished my testimony and I have been examined.

Please support me and address to the judge. HELP.
- For the next court session I want the session and you to specify pushing the court to come to a resolution. Please push for this because I cannot afford to lose any more penny. 
- I have never witnessed you challenge what WW is doing, WW’s tactics to the judge and call this to end.
- Is my money is going to the system or serving my best interests?

- The dragging of the case and her not finishing her testimony for 1.5 years is very grave and disturbing. Please stand up for this. It has got to a point where there is no care for the welfare of me and my children and my family. What am I going to do for the rest of my life?
- We cannot keep on going to court to defend, defend, defend, defend, defend and defend her lies. This is what we have been doing.
- As my lawyer I do not want to get to a point where I say all you have not done anything

- As of now I have lost $360 000 including fees for forensic, children's lawyer, computer forensics. I am not getting anything out of the house because the proceeds will be going to pay debt to banks and credits cards. In additionally I have lost an extra $750 000 in collateral damage.
- I have not had credit cards for the last 1 year.

- My credit score dropped massively. It is useless now. I have to build it.
- I need this case finished. I need to move on for my children and myself and not spend resources scrambling to prove she is lying.
- Let's end the sweet talk and finish it. Let's end entertaining WW’s tactics and finish. That is my ask and it is a simple ask.
So please help me.

Kind regards,
Last week the lawyer said if did not owe me funds we would have written a motion against WW because she refused to give health insurance info of our son who had chipped his tooth last week - an emergency. But we had previously agreed that I pay the bill after the house is sold. Should I tell him to file the motion and I will pay him after the house is sold as we had agreed months ago?
This is hard, I know. I have walked in your shoes.

Prioritise. That means custody above all else. You want full custody and child support. Don't get lost in the health insurance weeds. Make a list of the questions you want your lawyer to ask her at trial remembering that you never ask a question to which you do not already know the answer. Start simple, then trip her up. For example:

Q 'is this your handwriting' - A yes it is
Q 'would you care to explain to the court why you wrote this' . . .show a document that can be put into evidence that incriminates her. Remind her that perjury is a serious offence when she hesitates to answer.

Keep this up through all the issues you want the lawyer to bring up. 1-2-3-4 Everything should be typed up and ready for him with the linked documents. You will save a ton of money as well as keeping to the important stuff.

Do the same thing for your testimony. Keep that short and sweet. Pre-empt her by bringing up things she will try to pin on you so that they are already dealt with. Soon-to-be-ex will try to stretch it out. Discuss with your lawyer your plan to cut her off.

After custody you will do the finances. Have your full worksheet ready to go, written in the style the court expects to see. Your financial statement needs to address the division in a transparent way that is backed by documents. If you are missing documents, get them via subpoena now. That is not expensive and will prevent delays.

Your lawyer cannot 'tell the judge she is telling lies'. That goes nowhere because he cannot rule on that. You have to SHOW the lies in your cross examination. A judge can only rule on points of law. No matter how sorry he feels for you, there is nothing he can do unless you prove your case.
Excellent living_well. You just gave an amazing plan. I am on it. This is just amazing. I was meandering in the weeds. You also made me clearer to not stop using resources on the smaller things. I feel I have a plan now. Finally! Thank you so much.
Originally Posted by WierdSituation
Excellent living_well. You just gave an amazing plan. I am on it. This is just amazing. I was meandering in the weeds. You also made me clearer to not stop using resources on the smaller things. I feel I have a plan now. Finally! Thank you so much.

Best of luck to you
Thank you.
I dream of my wife nearly every night. What does this mean?
We parted ways with my lawyer today in court. We had agreed that I will pay him after the divorce is done. Now he wants his money now. He realized I do not have any money now and that the house may not be sold, and has decided not to continue after having milked me. He dragged the case and never accomplish anything - additional $90k gone for nothing when he said it was going to take him $18k to finish the case. Anyways, lesson learnt that lawyers in this case just loved dragging the case to get money. Lots of money wasted, nothing accomplished.

Now that I cannot afford a lawyer, and ex-divorce lawyer who is now a director of family justice center advised me just go to court and present yourself, and the court will make a judgement one day since the case has been going for long - nearly 5 years and the next court date is in its 6th year. WW wants full custody and is staying in a $3700.00/month dupleix in our house for free for the last 6 years and I have never got any income from the income it generates through 2 tenants living there. My lawyer never addressed it.

Questions:
1. Any advice or thoughts? What next now?
2. How do you deal with lawyers who behave like this?
3. Can you write somewhere that the world or population knows that he is not a good lawyer and do not hire him?
4. can the court make her pay me the half the income from the past 5 years?
5. should I continue fighting or go for mediation?
6. should i get the house sold and and I get my half and I do not have to deal with her anymore on the house?
7. does it make sense to say she stays in the house for free till the kids are done with college and then we sell the house?
8. does it make sense to say she stays in the house for free till the kids are 18 and then we sell the house?
9. does it make sense to say she stays in the house for free till the kids are done with college and then we sell the house?
10. does it make sense to say she stays in the house while paying me half of the income or x dollars per month till the kids are done with college and then we sell the house?
Originally Posted by WierdSituation
Questions:
1. Any advice or thoughts? What next now?

You can represent yourself and at the same time get advice from your friend behind the scenes. Ask him your questions about the division of assets.

If you are pro-bono, you have nothing to lose by continuing to fight for full custody.

Remember that if ex wife is allowed to continue to live in the house after the divorce, you will not be able to prevent her from moving a boyfriend in. How do you feel about that?


Thank you living_well.

The director is not a friend and age is just too busy to reach. I will give it a try.

I will aggressively look for a pro bono lawyer also. I heard from a friend that when the lawyers know you have an asset (house in our case) they will not want to do probono.

I never thought about the boyfriend moving part. Ha, I feel dumb. Too much going on. Some people saying keep the house and do not sell as it will aopreciatecun value. Others say sell it and I do not have to deal with her.

I do not like a boyfriend moving in. I would not feel good about. Thank you for lw.

In summary I will
1. keep getting advice from the director whenever she can provide
2. Find a probono lawyer
3. Get the house sold

Sounds good?
Originally Posted by WierdSituation
Thank you living_well.

In summary I will
1. keep getting advice from the director whenever she can provide

Make a list of questions so that you have one conversation. Ask her when it is essential

Originally Posted by WierdSituation
2. Find a probono lawyer

Going pro se works too. Judges in NY are very gentle with pro se litigants, especially someone in your position.

Originally Posted by WierdSituation
3. Get the house sold

Nobody here can know whether the house should be sold but you definitely do not want shared ownership. Either it is sold or one of you gets it with a refinance. Are you still fighting for custody?
Thank you so much lw. Your advice is just amazing.
I will make the list of questions.
I will go pro se.
On the house I wish I could buy her out. The judge does not want to out it in a trust and get it managed by it. It looks like the only options left are she buys me out or the house will be sold.
Yes, I am still fighting for custody.
Experts, It is 5 years now and the divorce is not finalized. The reason is that we have a brownstone and the lawyers/system were after this and are still after this. My wife, by dragging the divorce made me a prey for the predators.
My questions is 5 years and I have not dated anyone following the MB principle to date after divorce is finalized, I do not know if I should date or no anymore?
Originally Posted by WierdSituation
Experts, It is 5 years now and the divorce is not finalized. The reason is that we have a brownstone and the lawyers/system were after this and are still after this. My wife, by dragging the divorce made me a prey for the predators.
My questions is 5 years and I have not dated anyone following the MB principle to date after divorce is finalized, I do not know if I should date or no anymore?
Do you have a date that the divorce will be finalized?
No. The judge is not doing anything about it. It just keeps going and going forever. Clearly this is stopping me from performing my work and do things. This is my main concern. I need to build my assets and I am chained.

How can I get the judge to close this divorce. I was advised by en ex-divorce lawyer who is now Director of Family Justice that if I ask this to the judge he will get an angry. She advice me not to do it.
Originally Posted by WierdSituation
No. The judge is not doing anything about it. It just keeps going and going forever. Clearly this is stopping me from performing my work and do things. This is my main concern. I need to build my assets and I am chained.

How can I get the judge to close this divorce. I was advised by en ex-divorce lawyer who is now Director of Family Justice that if I ask this to the judge he will get an angry. She advice me not to do it.

If I remember you are in New York? My NY divorce took 5 years too. Eventually I got my decree by asking for Summary Judgement. The price I paid was that the assets were not divided and I am still waiting for that to happen 10 years later but I got my freedom. Never put your life on hold. You can only be chained if you allow yourself to be.

Compartmentalise the divorce and do your work. Slow makes this easier as you can do the legal stuff at the weekends.
Originally Posted by WierdSituation
No. The judge is not doing anything about it. It just keeps going and going forever...I was advised by en ex-divorce lawyer who is now Director of Family Justice that if I ask this to the judge he will get an angry...
And do what? Was she really saying that if you asked your judge to get the divorce finished s/he will...what? Ignore the law in your state and give all your assets to your wife, to spite you? Refuse ever to grant the divorce? What?

Do you live in a state that is governed by the rule of law, and by the application of judicial principles and precedents, or is there some state in the USA that I have not heard of, where judges have free rein to disregard the law and punish applicants at whim?

You have children that need a judicial ruling over their lives. You have assets that need to be divided. Divorce is legal where you live. Who is this judge that can simply refuse to deal with your divorce because you have a house between you? What divorcing couple doesn't have a house between them? And what legal system allows a judge to penalise someone for asking for the case to be closed?

This is one of the silliest things I have ever heard on this forum. 5 years in petition, money being poured down the drain, your own lawyer who does nothing about this, and another lawyer who tells you not to ask for the judge to make a judgement - in a simple divorce case?

What universe is this - and why are you letting this happen, for goodness sake?
Originally Posted by living_well
If I remember you are in New York? My NY divorce took 5 years too. Eventually I got my decree by asking for Summary Judgement. The price I paid was that the assets were not divided and I am still waiting for that to happen 10 years later but I got my freedom. Never put your life on hold. You can only be chained if you allow yourself to be.

Compartmentalise the divorce and do your work. Slow makes this easier as you can do the legal stuff at the weekends.

Thank you for the advice. Great, I will put it all on weekends. Great abd brilliant advice. I am executing on it from the moment I read your reply. My mind has totally changed. Many people I met and talk to were saying you cannot do this and that unless your divorce is done - finish your divorce first.

Yes, I am in New York City.

All this time I have not been mostly given a chance to say anything with my lawyers not addressing them what I wanted them to address to the judge.

I was thinking that I should write all these items and submit as a motion. I was thinking that doing this before asking for a Summary judgement be cause the judge does not have facts from my side. What are your thoughts?

What does a summary judgement mean or entail? What was it for you? I googled then I got confused.

Do assets accumulated after separation date get divided? I am thinking they divide from date of marriage till separation. Would they divide what has been accumulated after separation. in my case the last 5 years. 491k, IRA, business, etc.

One thing is that she has been living in our house for the last 5 years not paying rent in the dupleix apartment she occupies. This apartment used to bring $3700.00 per month. and this comes to $222 000.00, which is what she has saved. My lawyers never addressed this to the judge. What should I do? Should I ask the judge in written format(motion) to get compensation on this 1, by asking her to pay half of my rent in all these 5 years and have it subtracted from her proceeds from the division of assets?
Originally Posted by SugarCane
And do what? Was she really saying that if you asked your judge to get the divorce finished s/he will...what? Ignore the law in your state and give all your assets to your wife, to spite you? Refuse ever to grant the divorce? What?

Do you live in a state that is governed by the rule of law, and by the application of judicial principles and precedents, or is there some state in the USA that I have not heard of, where judges have free rein to disregard the law and punish applicants at whim?

You have children that need a judicial ruling over their lives. You have assets that need to be divided. Divorce is legal where you live. Who is this judge that can simply refuse to deal with your divorce because you have a house between you? What divorcing couple doesn't have a house between them? And what legal system allows a judge to penalise someone for asking for the case to be closed?

This is one of the silliest things I have ever heard on this forum. 5 years in petition, money being poured down the drain, your own lawyer who does nothing about this, and another lawyer who tells you not to ask for the judge to make a judgement - in a simple divorce case?

What universe is this - and why are you letting this happen, for goodness sake?

Thank you Sugarcane. She said the judges do not like it. She implied that he will rule in favor of WW for custody and then I have to pay child support. I live in NY but the system is very corrupt from what I have experienced.

I agree with you. I am thinking if writing to the judge as a motion and ask him to make a judgement. It will also be on record. The motion will have all the facts that my lawyers have not addressed too. What do you think? Our court date is March 1st and I cannot write before this date but I am thinking that I write to him.
Originally Posted by WierdSituation
Yes, I am in New York City.

NY State is notorious for their slow processing of contested divorces. I hate to scare you but a friend of mine spent 10 years getting hers. The state bills itself as 'family friendly' but it is not helpful to anyone to have a long dragged out process. Until 2011 there were no no-fault divorces, I think mine was the first.

Originally Posted by WierdSituation
All this time I have not been mostly given a chance to say anything with my lawyers not addressing them what I wanted them to address to the judge.

I was thinking that I should write all these items and submit as a motion. I was thinking that doing this before asking for a Summary judgement be cause the judge does not have facts from my side. What are your thoughts?

My suggestion is that you first write down exactly what you want from this; custody, assets etc. Keep it really, really simple. Number the items 1,2, 3 etc. Then take that to your lawyer and ask him to tell you how to make the list happen.

Originally Posted by WierdSituation
What does a summary judgement mean or entail? What was it for you? I googled then I got confused.

I don't think summary judgement would work in your case. My youngest child was 18 so there were no custody issues and I had a postnuptial agreement which I insisted on when I caught my XH 'having lunch' with the Fat Slag months after she had been supposedly dumped. So the postnup was incorporated into the decree. Summary judgement is a legal term meaning that all issues have been resolved so there is no reason not to grant the decree.

Originally Posted by WierdSituation
Do assets accumulated after separation date get divided? I am thinking they divide from date of marriage till separation. Would they divide what has been accumulated after separation. in my case the last 5 years. 491k, IRA, business, etc.

That is a question for your lawyer. It depends on the asset. The controlling law is 'equitable distribution'. Income earned by either party after divorce filing date remains the separate property of the earner. Inheritances and assets from before the marriage that are not co-mingled or spent are separate property. The uplift in a marital IRA would continue until division date but any new contributions would not. Illiquid assets such as a house or business are generally divided 'in kind' so if your wife was entitled to 1/3rd of your business, that would be what she would get rather than a specific dollar number unless you proposed something different and the judge accepted it.

Originally Posted by WierdSituation
One thing is that she has been living in our house for the last 5 years not paying rent in the dupleix apartment she occupies. This apartment used to bring $3700.00 per month. and this comes to $222 000.00, which is what she has saved. My lawyers never addressed this to the judge. What should I do? Should I ask the judge in written format(motion) to get compensation on this 1, by asking her to pay half of my rent in all these 5 years and have it subtracted from her proceeds from the division of assets?

This is a tough one. If you are paying your rent out of your income and she is living rent free in a marital rental property, she is (technically) paying her rent out of marital assets. The amount she receives from the in-kind division of the brownstone ought to be reduced by the after tax cost of her occupation. Whether it will be depends on a number of things such as whether she has an income and where the children are living. Judges generally side with the parent with custody in these matters.




Originally Posted by WierdSituation
I agree with you. I am thinking if writing to the judge as a motion and ask him to make a judgement. It will also be on record. The motion will have all the facts that my lawyers have not addressed too. What do you think?
I have no advice or thoughts on this. I live under a very different judicial system from yours, and I have no legal training in any system, and I have never been through a divorce. Also, I did not see living_well's post before I submitted my own. Had I read it, I would not have said what I did.

If New York divorces often take many years, they do and that's that. The only point I would reiterate is not understanding how a judge can penalise a person for asking for a case to be concluded. That does sound like corruption, and not the neutral application of the law.
Thank you living_well. NY is a he ache for me.

Sorry all. I could not reply because these has taken an emotional toll on me to deal with or respond. Avoidance.

Originally Posted by living_well
NY State is notorious for their slow processing of contested divorces. I hate to scare you but a friend of mine spent 10 years getting hers. The state bills itself as 'family friendly' but it is not helpful to anyone to have a long dragged out process. Until 2011 there were no no-fault divorces, I think mine was the first.

The 10 years thing really scared me. However it made me aware of what may happen. It helps me plan my life. Better told than not.

Originally Posted by living_well
My suggestion is that you first write down exactly what you want from this; custody, assets etc. Keep it really, really simple. Number the items 1,2, 3 etc. Then take that to your lawyer and ask him to tell you how to make the list happen.

I am writing down all though now I do not have a lawyer anymore. Bankrupted by case, lawyers and WW.


Originally Posted by living_well
I don't think summary judgement would work in your case. My youngest child was 18 so there were no custody issues and I had a postnuptial agreement which I insisted on when I caught my XH 'having lunch' with the Fat Slag months after she had been supposedly dumped. So the postnup was incorporated into the decree. Summary judgement is a legal term meaning that all issues have been resolved so there is no reason not to grant the decree.

What is a postnuptial agreement? What did it entail in your case. It is some thing I could apply in my case. Dr Harley is advising me to expose the affair it helps achieve some legal objectives.


Originally Posted by living_well
That is a question for your lawyer. It depends on the asset. The controlling law is 'equitable distribution'. Income earned by either party after divorce filing date remains the separate property of the earner. Inheritances and assets from before the marriage that are not co-mingled or spent are separate property. The uplift in a marital IRA would continue until division date but any new contributions would not. Illiquid assets such as a house or business are generally divided 'in kind' so if your wife was entitled to 1/3rd of your business, that would be what she would get rather than a specific dollar number unless you proposed something different and the judge accepted it.

Lawyer never answered this question throughout the time he was representing me though I asked him many times. I will have to find out somewhere.


Originally Posted by living_well
This is a tough one. If you are paying your rent out of your income and she is living rent free in a marital rental property, she is (technically) paying her rent out of marital assets. The amount she receives from the in-kind division of the brownstone ought to be reduced by the after tax cost of her occupation. Whether it will be depends on a number of things such as whether she has an income and where the children are living. Judges generally side with the parent with custody in these matters.

Sounds like a good plan. I will go with this.

Originally Posted by SugarCane
Originally Posted by WierdSituation
I agree with you. I am thinking if writing to the judge as a motion and ask him to make a judgement. It will also be on record. The motion will have all the facts that my lawyers have not addressed too. What do you think?
I have no advice or thoughts on this. I live under a very different judicial system from yours, and I have no legal training in any system, and I have never been through a divorce. Also, I did not see living_well's post before I submitted my own. Had I read it, I would not have said what I did.

If New York divorces often take many years, they do and that's that. The only point I would reiterate is not understanding how a judge can penalise a person for asking for a case to be concluded. That does sound like corruption, and not the neutral application of the law.

Thanks Sugarcane. Yes, the ex-divocre lawyer(director of family justice said dod not even do that, the judges in NYC do not like it. They get angry and hold that against you. Yes, NYC is an extremely corrupt city. Many dod not know even people who live here.
Update: I have been communicating with Dr Harley on the exposure through a series of emails.. His advice which came yesterday is as follows:

Everything hinges on what's legal, not what's moral. If exposure helps you achieve legal objectives, go for it. If it doesn't, if it actually hurts your case legally, you should avoid it. My general impression has been that exposure of her affair hurts your legal case. Money she sent to her family, on the other hand, is a legal issue, and should be exposed. Did she have a legal right to give away money from your joint account?

In all seriousness the lack of exposure has taken a heavy toll on me in all facets and WW has thrived by lying to everyone and the court. i agree with many of you of you who had said I should expose, lawyers do not know anything about exposure. I am also going to expose about the money issue.

Now, I am assembling things that can achieve legal objectives to be included in the exposure.

Question1.
What other things do you think can be help meet "achieve legal objectives". in the exposure? Maybe from experience and what you have seen on this forum and many cases? My aim is to expose on the weekend I have the children for 5 days straight which will be 11 days from now. She will not have time to gaslight them.

Question 2
Do you have any templates for exposing about money or should I just follow the affair exposure templates but tailored for the many part?

If so, who should be the WW and who should be the OM? The sender(my wife) - vs the recipients(her brother and his wife) - support in influencing them to return the money, etc. Not sure what to say about my wife as she is the "thief". Or is it just one letter only. BTW my wife's family has a history of stealing money from each other. Their whole relationships are so broken because of this. This the reason we never moved to Argentina because there is no family support. There, people support each other in business through family network. Uncle(brother of the father) stole from the father, and grand parents. The aunt(sister of mother)'s husband stole from her father. The story goes on. Now herself, brother and his wife want to get our brownstone house(4 floors) worth $2million from me.


She did not have a legal right to give away the money from the joint accounts.

Thank you all.
Originally Posted by WierdSituation
Update: I have been communicating with Dr Harley on the exposure through a series of emails.. His advice which came yesterday is as follows:

Everything hinges on what's legal, not what's moral. If exposure helps you achieve legal objectives, go for it. If it doesn't, if it actually hurts your case legally, you should avoid it. My general impression has been that exposure of her affair hurts your legal case. Money she sent to her family, on the other hand, is a legal issue, and should be exposed. Did she have a legal right to give away money from your joint account?

Originally Posted by WierdSituation
She did not have a legal right to give away the money from the joint accounts.

Thank you all.

Weird, you need to calm down and take some deep breaths. You are hurting your case and exhausting yourself. Dr Harley says you should expose on the money. That means you should explain to her family that she did not have the right to this money because taking it circumvented the automatic orders of the court which state: "Pending further order of this matter, neither party shall transfer, alienate, sell, mortgage, pledge or hypothecate any joint, marital, separate or business asset or property; neither party shall incur any debt except for ordinary and usual living expenses in the usual course of business of the parties." Send her relatives a copy of the preliminary conference order that she signed and dated. It uses exactly this language. She probably told them it was her money and you were trying to steal it. Explain to them that she will be in contempt of court if she does not return the money and that the penalty for that will be a fine or imprisonment.

In addition show them evidence in the form of a bank statement and wire transfer so that they can see exactly what she took and from where.

But before you do this, make a plan about how to keep the money safe until the trial. Generally your choices are to freeze it in situ or ask a lawyer to hold it in escrow. I have successfully done both. Either would work but cost money. There is absolutely no sense in asking them to return money to an account to which she has access because she will just take it straight out again. Depending on the relationship you have with her relatives, you could ask them to hold the money pending the outcome of the trial and send you regular statements.




Thank you for keeping me grounded. It is extremely hard. I am composing the money exposure letter and trying to reach the children's lawyer for escrow needs. I will show the draft here after I talk to the lawyer.

Question: Should this exposure go to family only? It would not make much sense because they are accomplices in the "crime" and there would be accountability or influence on them to act. I would not achieve anything. It is like sending this to a group of thieves. There is a long history of money stealing from each other in her family. I thought I should send it to family and friends just like the exposure letter. My family and friends and her fiends need to know because she has lied about it.

This is the latest reply form Dr Harley after I had replied to his advice above that I was thinking of exposing. Note that I sent him before I posted the above post from 2 days ago here asking for advice.

Make sure that whatever you expose is not interpreted as a form of vengeance. Do it with only legal objectives in mind. Don't try to add disrespect to the facts.
Originally Posted by WierdSituation
Thank you for keeping me grounded. It is extremely hard. I am composing the money exposure letter and trying to reach the children's lawyer for escrow needs. I will show the draft here after I talk to the lawyer.

Question: Should this exposure go to family only? It would not make much sense because they are accomplices in the "crime" and there would be accountability or influence on them to act. I would not achieve anything. It is like sending this to a group of thieves. There is a long history of money stealing from each other in her family. I thought I should send it to family and friends just like the exposure letter. My family and friends and her fiends need to know because she has lied about it.

This is the latest reply form Dr Harley after I had replied to his advice above that I was thinking of exposing. Note that I sent him before I posted the above post from 2 days ago here asking for advice.

Make sure that whatever you expose is not interpreted as a form of vengeance. Do it with only legal objectives in mind. Don't try to add disrespect to the facts.

Ask yourself, what would be the objective in sending this letter to anyone other than the people holding the money. If there is a good reason, go for it. Leave out the history of theft, your simple message is "she broke the law, if the money is not returned she will face a fine or imprisonment for contempt of court". That should wake her up.

Have you located those all important documents (her preliminary conference order and the wire transfers)? Without solid proof she will be able to deny everything which will make your position even worse than it already is.
Thank you living_well. I have most the wire transfer documents and I just need to put them together. I need to dig the preliminary conference papers. I should be able to find them.

My wife is very good with hiding and lying to our friends and relatives. They need to be told the truth. Years will go while they hold on to lies.
Hi All,

Tomorrow I start cross examining her. I do not have a lawyer.

Question 1:
What questions can I use to cross examine her on the affair?
When I was with my lawyer he told me that ‘Wait and see when he starts cross examining her about the affair?”

Question 2:
What questions can I use to examine her on her threats tp commit suicide?
She threatened this 3 times. One in person and 2 through phone calls. She said if you do not give me the house I will commit suicide. She said if I do not give her the house and custody I will call the police and you will go to prison. She then said again if you do not give me the house I will commit suicide.

The more questions I get the better. You can just list them if you have any.

BTW, I have not written the letter for money exposure yet. I got caught up on other things but I will get to it.

Thank you.
Quote
Make sure that whatever you expose is not interpreted as a form of vengeance. Do it with only legal objectives in mind. Don't try to add disrespect to the facts.
That is a good starting point.
I am by no means a legal expert, but you seem to be short of time.
Ask questions you know the answer (an preferably you have evidence to back up) and want document legally.
If you cannot proof she's not telling the truth, it might make you look bad. Again, I am no expert. Try to focus on the bigger picture, don't fall for details that don't get you to the main goal.
Goody gives you good advice. Presume this is a no-fault divorce and the legal proceedings are to decide on custody and the division of assets?. If so, stick with those subject areas. Do not bring up anything you cannot document with physical handouts in the courtroom.

For custody you need to show you are the better parent. Where are the children living now and what percentage of the time are they spending with you. Judges generally do not want to disturb existing arrangements unless there is a compelling reason to do so.

Make sure you have prepared a complete statement of all assets and liabilities. Remember to include the money she sent to her family as this is still marital.
Originally Posted by goody2shoes
Quote
Make sure that whatever you expose is not interpreted as a form of vengeance. Do it with only legal objectives in mind. Don't try to add disrespect to the facts.
That is a good starting point.
I am by no means a legal expert, but you seem to be short of time.
Ask questions you know the answer (an preferably you have evidence to back up) and want document legally.
If you cannot proof she's not telling the truth, it might make you look bad. Again, I am no expert. Try to focus on the bigger picture, don't fall for details that don't get you to the main goal.

Thank you so much. I will follow this great advice. This is where I was wondering. I got it now. Questions with proof. Big picture. Stay away from details especially non-main goal oriented. Great.

Today's court was cancelled. We have tomorrow which may end up being short and allow me time to sharpen my questions and answers/proof.
Originally Posted by living_well
Goody gives you good advice. Presume this is a no-fault divorce and the legal proceedings are to decide on custody and the division of assets?. If so, stick with those subject areas. Do not bring up anything you cannot document with physical handouts in the courtroom.

For custody you need to show you are the better parent. Where are the children living now and what percentage of the time are they spending with you. Judges generally do not want to disturb existing arrangements unless there is a compelling reason to do so.

Make sure you have prepared a complete statement of all assets and liabilities. Remember to include the money she sent to her family as this is still marital.

Great. Thank you very much. Yes, the areas are custody and division of assets, possibly alimony since I had moved abroad for her job but I am not sure how the judge may handle this one.

The children are spending exactly half of the time with me. 50/50 though in 2019 summer they spent most of the time(about 75/25) with me because she did not want to spent time with them. She said she did not have tome to take them for tutoring because of work.

Yes, the judge has said there is no way he will change the schedule. one issue is that from her place our son has to take 3 trains and a bus to get to his high school. It takes about 2 hours. That is 6 trains and 2 buses(4 hours per day on the days she will be with him.
We have been in court. When I was about to cross examine my wife the judge had agreed that I order the transcripts of my wife's testimony. After the cross examination he refused. This change really surprised me. I was lost.

WW told the court she had only 3 files(pages) for evidence for her testimony at the beginning of the cross examination. At the end she gave more evidence- many files). I asked the judge that is was not right that she gives only 2 pages at the beginning and then gives all the evidence at the end of cross examination and then I cannot cross examine the evidence. He rebuffed my request.

My cross examination of her did not go well. The judge intimidated me. Asked me to hire a lawyer. I said I do not have funds.

The judge was also shouting at my questions - frustration maybe but it looks like he did not want her to lose.

The judge proceeded to say that I will have to give my testimony in 1 day(2 hours) next week and no more while he had my wife present her testimony on many days in 3.5 years. When it comes to me it is only 2 hours.

I am at a loss.

Though I never want point these things - to me it looked it came out as corrupt, unfairness, racially biased and gender biased(I keep hearing that it is impossible for a woman to lose because she is not a drug addict - maybe the judge has no choice except make her win). WW is white passing and I am in the minority(considered black) and male. I am not sure what is at play here but it is totally unfair.

Because of privacy I was also not allowed to show the medical records to prove that i took the children to ER for emergency visits. My wife tried to paint me as irresponsible saying i took them ER( 3 visits) when the reasons are actually valid.


Children's lawyer wrote us (WW and I) an email proposing 50 -50 custody and a parent coordinator. She asked us to reply. I relied, "Yes, I would agree". I should have posted this here before I replied but I was shaking and all over. The only good things is that if she replies No also we may end the case/court. The one who replies NO usually is labelled by the court as the who is not agreeing. WW is difficult to co-parent. I do not know if I did the right thing by saying Yes. The worst case scenario is the judge gives her custody.
Once I give testimony I will be cross examined and we move to the finances. I am still going to write the letter to relatives about the money she took after my cross examination. Sometimes I do not have the strength to even do it. if we end up agreeing on the children's lawyer proposal I will write it after.

I asked the children's lawyer why she proposed this and she said 1. because many people use parent coordinators, 2. the forensic evaluator for our case recommended it
Questions:

1. Do you think the judge maybe playing something here? The behind the scenes and corridors of powers are at play?

2. Do you think it is good to go with the proposal? WW has messed up many times and she gett away with it. If it was me who had done that they would not let me get away.

3. Do you think I should push for custody? Judge says he is not going to change the current schedule which is at 50/50. The children's thinks the same too. Child support on the proposal would be dependent on our salaries.

4. I asked the children lawyer on if/then situations..
if WW does not show up with kids and does not stay with kids at her time, does not take them to doctors.m, etc she said:
1. Seek Enforcement through the parent coordinator and court
2. Hire a lawyer and get it done in court
3. Change of custody

I seriously do not what to do. Any thoughts?
Now that we all do not have lawyers (which no money for the court business network/lawyers)maybe the judge is frustrated and just wants to end it? When I had a lawyer he was happy to let it drag and waste time.
Originally Posted by WierdSituation
Now that we all do not have lawyers (which no money for the court business network/lawyers)maybe the judge is frustrated and just wants to end it? When I had a lawyer he was happy to let it drag and waste time.

I'm sure that is how it looked to you but the truth is that judges have more patience when people have legal representation because they do not want their decisions appealed.

How are you doing with deciding exactly what you are fighting for? You seem to still be wandering all over the place. You can only win if you focus on the most important issue.

On the division of assets, you need your paperwork that shows exactly what she sent overseas and when. Get that introduced into evidence. Automatic orders did not permit her to move funds whether the funds were separate or marital. Everything sent overseas goes into the total marital pot calculation. Then you get half of that number. Ask for your half out of what remains in the US otherwise that will be a whole new legal issue. Maybe you get the rental house?

If she wants to claim that those were her separate assets or that she was repaying a debt, she has to prove that in the court with documents. I bet she cannot.

Best of luck to you.
Thank you for keeping me straight. I get it now about the judges. Yes, I have been wandering all. I will now focus on the following most important issues for my testimony next week.(What I have done and what she has done wrong.)

1. health issues of the children
2. education of the children
3. welfare of the children
4. Her affair
5. abuse
6. house
7. finances

In the testimony I will present each and everything by word and back it by evidence.
Living_well, dir you see th other 3 posts above the one you replied?
Originally Posted by WierdSituation
Thank you for keeping me straight. I get it now about the judges. Yes, I have been wandering all. I will now focus on the following most important issues for my testimony next week.(What I have done and what she has done wrong.)

1. health issues of the children
2. education of the children
3. welfare of the children
4. Her affair
5. abuse
6. house
7. finances

In the testimony I will present each and everything by word and back it by evidence.


With respect to items 1, 2, 3 what are you asking for? I cheer you on if you want full custody but the only thing that matters in this regard is item 3. What evidence are you planning to present to support your claim? Generally judges look to whatever arrangements are in place and make them permanent.

For item 4 I presume you are using the 2011 no fault law? If so, her adultery is not relevant.

For item 5 domestic abuse is a criminal issue, not a civil one.

Item 6, the house is part of the finances. If the house is a marital asset, you will need an appraisal. Then it gets divided with all the other marital assets.
Originally Posted by living_well
Originally Posted by WierdSituation
Thank you for keeping me straight. I get it now about the judges. Yes, I have been wandering all. I will now focus on the following most important issues for my testimony next week.(What I have done and what she has done wrong.)

1. health issues of the children
2. education of the children
3. welfare of the children
4. Her affair
5. abuse
6. house
7. finances

In the testimony I will present each and everything by word and back it by evidence.


With respect to items 1, 2, 3 what are you asking for? I cheer you on if you want full custody but the only thing that matters in this regard is item 3. What evidence are you planning to present to support your claim? Generally judges look to whatever arrangements are in place and make them permanent.

For item 4 I presume you are using the 2011 no fault law? If so, her adultery is not relevant.

For item 5 domestic abuse is a criminal issue, not a civil one.

Item 6, the house is part of the finances. If the house is a marital asset, you will need an appraisal. Then it gets divided with all the other marital assets.


Thank you so much. This is very helpful.

For 1, 2 and 3, I was thinking of presenting what I have done and what she has not done( she did not take children to doctors for 2 years'18 to '20- only started taking them when I mentioned it to the judge). She is saying I am taking the children to doctors for nothing. I am asking that I becone responsible for those areas and make the final decisions.

OK, it looks like full custody is not something to fight for then. the current custody is at 50-50. Thank you for letting me know the judges usually keep the schedule permanent. I was not sure/did not know about this. It makes me sure. The judge has also said will not change that.

Evidence for item 3:
1. Her abandonment of son at the subway station. She says she panicked
2. Not picking up children at tennis camp when she gave me a TOP. she expected me to pick them up and get arrested because it was supposed to be my custody date but she knew that she had a TOP to keep me away from her and kids.
3. Police reports of her violating custody order
4. Defying court order for by not sending the kids for tutoring
5. Reporting that I take kids to ER for nothing when they are emergencies, and when the health issues have started in her custody time. one wrist sprain and one was a tick bite, one stomachace that made our sons cry and not sleep.
6. she did not get the kid's broken tooth treaetd on time after I had found a dentist who offered me a 50% discount. Thisxxv happebed when she was at the dentist place. Waited for 1 month - then the nerve got infected, now a consistent tooth problem
7. She changed the high school application list from the one that was agreed by court.
8. Audio on how she was disrespectful to the school counselor, scolding him during the meeting.
9. Defying court order that says the kids should not be in the subway alone. Texts between kids and her show this.
My mistake, I assumed item 3 was related to the way she was treating you. I have no expertise in presenting this kind of data to the court. Perhaps someone else can chime in on this.

Had you thought of hiring a child advocate?
No worries. I never thought of hiring a child advocate. I did not know there was such a thing. Could you expound on how this works? I would definitely consider it.
...also what do you think is the important issue I should focus on? I am all over.
Originally Posted by living_well
Originally Posted by WierdSituation
Update: I have been communicating with Dr Harley on the exposure through a series of emails.. His advice which came yesterday is as follows:

Everything hinges on what's legal, not what's moral. If exposure helps you achieve legal objectives, go for it. If it doesn't, if it actually hurts your case legally, you should avoid it. My general impression has been that exposure of her affair hurts your legal case. Money she sent to her family, on the other hand, is a legal issue, and should be exposed. Did she have a legal right to give away money from your joint account?

Originally Posted by WierdSituation
She did not have a legal right to give away the money from the joint accounts.

Thank you all.

Weird, you need to calm down and take some deep breaths. You are hurting your case and exhausting yourself. Dr Harley says you should expose on the money. That means you should explain to her family that she did not have the right to this money because taking it circumvented the automatic orders of the court which state: "Pending further order of this matter, neither party shall transfer, alienate, sell, mortgage, pledge or hypothecate any joint, marital, separate or business asset or property; neither party shall incur any debt except for ordinary and usual living expenses in the usual course of business of the parties." Send her relatives a copy of the preliminary conference order that she signed and dated. It uses exactly this language. She probably told them it was her money and you were trying to steal it. Explain to them that she will be in contempt of court if she does not return the money and that the penalty for that will be a fine or imprisonment.

In addition show them evidence in the form of a bank statement and wire transfer so that they can see exactly what she took and from where.

But before you do this, make a plan about how to keep the money safe until the trial. Generally your choices are to freeze it in situ or ask a lawyer to hold it in escrow. I have successfully done both. Either would work but cost money. There is absolutely no sense in asking them to return money to an account to which she has access because she will just take it straight out again. Depending on the relationship you have with her relatives, you could ask them to hold the money pending the outcome of the trial and send you regular statements.

Oh, finally I have managed to draft the exposure on the money. I seriously can't believe how long this took me to do. Divorce "kills". I just could not get myself to do it. Not because I did not want to do it but because of the emotional toll. I just could not get the energy or motivation to do it. I am not sure where I got the energy to do it - maybe because she has gotten away with many things or I want accountability or I am getting my life back and taking control(of my life and not being a doormat) back.

Quick question before I post the draft here for review. I need to talk to ask a lawyer to hold it in escrow. Now we have only the divorce left in our case. Is this the lawyer I ask or I have to find one? If I have to find one what is the procedure?

What is the other option - to freeze it in situ? How do I go about it?

Thank you.
Originally Posted by WierdSituation
Quick question before I post the draft here for review. I need to talk to ask a lawyer to hold it in escrow. Now we have only the divorce left in our case. Is this the lawyer I ask or I have to find one? If I have to find one what is the procedure?

What is the other option - to freeze it in situ? How do I go about it?

Thank you.

Where is the money now?
The money is with the brother and sister in law unless they did something with it. part if it she used to buy a car from them.
Originally Posted by WierdSituation
The money is with the brother and sister in law unless they did something with it. part if it she used to buy a car from them.

If you do not have control of the money you cannot put it into escrow. You could freeze it in situ using the current court action. If it is overseas you will need to get a court order in that country which is going to cost you money.

You might prefer to just offer the court your evidence of the movement of money in contravention of the automatic orders and ask your court for you to be compensated. If these are marital funds, she owes you half. Makes no difference whether she spent it or not, she owes you half of what she transferred out. If she bought a car with it, that vehicle is marital. Generally easier and simpler just to get compensation rather than half a car..
OK. I can provide evidence to the court.

I was thinking and hoping that the letter would help inform family and friends of what happened. This way they know and she does not get away with lying because her father and mother do not know. They had given us some money to keep but now they do not know that she sent it to her brother and his wife. Basically WW, her brother and wifeare in secret collaboration but the rest of her family does not know and has been lied to that I took the money.

Exposing to the parents and close relatives(is key) would know what happened and would see the evidence. This would ge a big blow to WW. It will catch her by surprise too.
Originally Posted by WierdSituation
OK. I can provide evidence to the court.

I was thinking and hoping that the letter would help inform family and friends of what happened. This way they know and she does not get away with lying because her father and mother do not know. They had given us some money to keep but now they do not know that she sent it to her brother and his wife. Basically WW, her brother and wifeare in secret collaboration but the rest of her family does not know and has been lied to that I took the money.

Exposing to the parents and close relatives(is key) would know what happened and would see the evidence. This would ge a big blow to WW. It will catch her by surprise too.

If I recall, Dr Harley already told you to expose the money issue. Here is what you posted on the subject from Dr Harley:

Everything hinges on what's legal, not what's moral. If exposure helps you achieve legal objectives, go for it. If it doesn't, if it actually hurts your case legally, you should avoid it. My general impression has been that exposure of her affair hurts your legal case. Money she sent to her family, on the other hand, is a legal issue, and should be exposed. Did she have a legal right to give away money from your joint account?


So what are you waiting for?
Thank you. I will post the draft here tomorrow. I am not waiting fur anything. The emotions or divorce toll got the better of me and I could not even sit down and write.
Originally Posted by WierdSituation
Thank you. I will post the draft here tomorrow. I am not waiting fur anything. The emotions or divorce toll got the better of me and I could not even sit down and write.
If you can't sit down and write yourself, could you hire someone to do it for you? A student could do that and spare you the stress, or even an agency that provides HR solutions.
Writing a simple letter can be extremely difficult, when emotions come into play. Get it done yourself, or have someone else do it.
Thank you. I will look into Upwork or find someone. Ha, it is hard to do it alone, I have to admit.
I am saddened. My FIL is not well. Not sure if these are his last days or not. I finally email him after 6 years. He was lied to and has said he does not the story between me and we when I asked him to hp with my marriage after separation. Therefore I had never contacted him again. I wished him a quick recovery and he wrote back nicely. Communication channel is now open with him. I really think he knows hi daughter did some wrong things. Every parent know their child.

MIL is crazy though. Do not even know if I should contact her. I may try.

I am saddened because he maybdie without knwing about the affair and money stolen. Also my grandparents-in-law died without knowing.

I cannot believe the divorce is entering its 7th year. No crime. Not rich Just a brownstone house and kids. My life is chained and I do not know what to do. I cannot start new things or projects. Hard to do.
Originally Posted by WierdSituation
I am saddened. My FIL is not well. Not sure if these are his last days or not. I finally email him after 6 years. He was lied to and has said he does not the story between me and we when I asked him to hp with my marriage after separation. Therefore I had never contacted him again. I wished him a quick recovery and he wrote back nicely. Communication channel is now open with him. I really think he knows hi daughter did some wrong things. Every parent know their child.

MIL is crazy though. Do not even know if I should contact her. I may try.

I am saddened because he maybdie without knwing about the affair and money stolen. Also my grandparents-in-law died without knowing.

So now you know how important exposure is. Be brief, keep to the facts of what she did with the money and tell everyone at the same time. Generally people believe the first version they hear. You do not want your soon-to-be-ex spinning another version of the story to people you have not yet told.

Originally Posted by WierdSituation
I cannot believe the divorce is entering its 7th year. No crime. Not rich Just a brownstone house and kids. My life is chained and I do not know what to do. I cannot start new things or projects. Hard to do.

I can. Although I was able to get my divorce through Summary Judgement, I am still waiting for the division of assets 11 years later. The important thing is not to let this stand in the way of moving on. You only have one life, so live it to the full.
Originally Posted by living_well
So now you know how important exposure is. Be brief, keep to the facts of what she did with the money and tell everyone at the same time. Generally people believe the first version they hear. You do not want your soon-to-be-ex spinning another version of the story to people you have not yet told.

Yes, indeed. Now I know. I will stick to the facts and be brief. The brother is visiting the parents and is checking the father's email. Also the father and mother got covid 4 days ago. Maybe I wait till he is done with the visit? I thnk I should just do it. Next court date is in February.

I am very sick troubled that he will not know about the affair. I really want people to know about this. Maybe I should expose to people saying, “Following all these years most of you did not know what ended my marriage…”, then I tell about the affair. I do not ask them i to influence her to get back with me.

A few days ago she told the kids that “I do not want her to see her father who is dying”. I was extremely shocked. The father is another country. She has not seen him for eight years. I wrote a short email with facts only to the core family what she said and that I whole heartedly want her to see her father, and that I have offered many times to stay with the kids when she is away and that she can go as many times as possible and as long as she wants. I also wrote another email to the family informing them she brought my clothes on Friday through the kids after 6 years of keeping them and that this maybe damage them pscyhologically. I also told them she still holds my degree certificates, photos of my parents’ wedding and other important items.

What I learnt from this mini exposures:
All what MB says is correct. Only the people who support her bad act reply who was her brother. He replied with WW speak. I definitely believe he was told what to write by her. He was saying do not send me court orders(for the money) and emails to him or his wife yet they are the ones whose accounts received our money. Basically trying to shut me up. He said he urges me to stop writing to a list of people who know WW. He said the illness of the father was a private matter of the family and some of the family embers I included did not know about it yet I only emailed to the core family - brother of the father and son, sister of the mother and daughter, himself and his wife.

The reply showed me that if one does not expose at the same time the "criminals" will hear from the recipients very fast. It took ONLY 19 minutes to receive the reply. The brother and WW had already talked, figured out what to say and write and send it. An exposure email send to individuals separately at the same time helps mitigate WW/OM story twisting and defense.

WW is going crazy and uncontrollable showing her insanity and irrational to the court, children’s lawyer, kids and me not about these mini exposures but just going nuts. These exposures really “killed” her. It took her and the brother(partner in crime) by surprise. I think she is not sleeping. She has not gone to see her father when she has been claiming he has terminal illness for the last two months. She may have even lied that the illness is terminal and now the parents know. I did not want to be blamed for her not going to see him. Now the can is open.

I love exposure! I am so relieved. It is helping me with healing too. i saw a big change in me since i did this. What a sense of relief? Fantastic. I love MB!


WW says it’s terminal yet she has not asked the court to take the children to see him.

Originally Posted by living_well
I can. Although I was able to get my divorce through Summary Judgement, I am still waiting for the division of assets 11 years later. The important thing is not to let this stand in the way of moving on. You only have one life, so live it to the full.

This! ...is life saving. You saved my life. This has energized and encouraged I can move on. I really thank you for this. You are my savior. Thank you for being there. The lion has just woken up. Every minute is going to be very useful for me to build my assets and life back. I will live my life to the fullest. May all the Gods bless you.
I reread Dr Gatley's replies and they gave me a possibilty to expose the affair based on legal. Now I have to find that "legal" thing.

Dr. Harkey's last replies on exposure of the affair and money.

Date 5/11/2021:
"Everything hinges on what's legal, not what's moral.  If exposure helps you achieve legal objectives, go for it.  If it doesn't, if it actually hurts your case legally, you should avoid it.  My general impression has been that exposure of her affair hurts your legal case.  Money she sent to her family, on the other hand, is a legal issue, and should be exposed.  Did she have a legal right to give away money from your joint account?"

The last one:
Date 5/23/2021:
"Make sure that whatever you expose is not interpreted as a form of vengeance. Do it with only legal objectives in mind.  Don't try to add disrespect to the facts."
....
I want to expose the affair. I cannot take it anymore. I need to heal. I need to tell her father. I will figure out how to expose meeting legal goals.

Any ideas on how I can do this? It can be even one tiny statement connecting affair with legal. What things connect an affair and legal?

Maybe it is that the kids are suffering,. House, She wants to get custody move to Australia/NZ? She hinted. He wants to come and live with her in a house and she wants to take our house? Something to do with divorce taking long, or something? I have a feeling I will get something. Dr. Harley is spot on - if there us legal part then it is good.

For money exposure I started gathering email addresses. I thought I was done but there are more people I did not have their emails addresses. I am realizing that it takes small steps. I am now encouraged by living_well's advice. I feel confident. If her father dies without knowing I will never have peace for the rest of my life! That I know.

The exposure if the affair will be a huge lift of my shoulder, stress and health
I reread Dr Gatley's replies and they gave me a possibilty to expose the affair based on legal. Now I have to find that "legal" thing.

Dr. Harkey's last replies on exposure of the affair and money.

Date 5/11/2021:
"Everything hinges on what's legal, not what's moral.  If exposure helps you achieve legal objectives, go for it.  If it doesn't, if it actually hurts your case legally, you should avoid it.  My general impression has been that exposure of her affair hurts your legal case.  Money she sent to her family, on the other hand, is a legal issue, and should be exposed.  Did she have a legal right to give away money from your joint account?"

The last one:
Date 5/23/2021:
"Make sure that whatever you expose is not interpreted as a form of vengeance. Do it with only legal objectives in mind.  Don't try to add disrespect to the facts."
....
I want to expose the affair. I cannot take it anymore. I need to heal. I need to tell her father. I will figure out how to expose meeting legal goals.

Any ideas on how I can do this? It can be even one tiny statement connecting affair with legal. What things connect an affair and legal?

Maybe it is that the kids are suffering,. House, She wants to get custody move to Australia/NZ? She hinted. He wants to come and live with her in a house and she wants to take our house? Something to do with divorce taking long, or something? I have a feeling I will get something. Dr. Harley is spot on - if there us legal part then it is good.

For money exposure I started gathering email addresses. I thought I was done but there are more people I did not have their emails addresses. I am realizing that it takes small steps. I am now encouraged by living_well's advice. I feel confident. If her father dies without knowing I will never have peace for the rest of my life! That I know.

The exposure if the affair will be a huge lift of my shoulder, stress and health
*Dr. Harley. Sorry for the typos.
Please focus on what is legally the smartest thing to do.

Do you have your evidence of her financial wrongdoings well organised and presentable?
Originally Posted by goody2shoes
Please focus on what is legally the smartest thing to do.

Do you have your evidence of her financial wrongdoings well organised and presentable?

Yes, I do have.
Update: We have settled for joint legal and physical custody(50/50). Judge forced us to make settlement with the children's lawyer.

It seems the judge did not want to make the decision for fear of an appeal especially after he supported the scam lawyer who represented and duped me.

WW wanted this 50/50 joint settlement to protect herself from all the bad things she had done in the last 6.5 years which made her not deserve full custody. If it had been me(as a minority male) who had done these things I certainly would have lost custody.

As for me I am a minority male and that certainly does not help and has proven not to help.

Next steps:
1. The judge asked us to come up with a decision on what we wanted to do with the house.
2. I am planning to expose about the funds she took this Monday. I have drafted the exposure but it is long. I could not find a lawyer to receive the funds from her relatives she the funds to in escrow. Children's lawyer said she is not authorized. I cannot figure out the freeze in situ. So, I do not know where I should say they should sent the funds to.
Originally Posted by WierdSituation
Update: We have settled for joint legal and physical custody(50/50).

That is generally the best for children. You can always quietly spend more time with them if that is what they wish, just don't bring attention to it so that they do not become a battle ground.

Originally Posted by WierdSituation
As for me I am a minority male and that certainly does not help and has proven not to help.

Can't imagine how that would make any difference to anything. Courts tend to favour mothers which is a pity as fathers make great single parents especially for boys.

Originally Posted by WierdSituation
Next steps:
1. The judge asked us to come up with a decision on what we wanted to do with the house.

So judge is asking you to come up with a proposal. Always ask for a bit more than you would be happy to settle for.

Originally Posted by WierdSituation
2. I am planning to expose about the funds she took this Monday. I have drafted the exposure but it is long. I could not find a lawyer to receive the funds from her relatives she the funds to in escrow. Children's lawyer said she is not authorized. I cannot figure out the freeze in situ. So, I do not know where I should say they should sent the funds to.

Not sure I understand this. Do you have a judgment against her for the money? Unless you have a judgement or the person holding the funds is willing to hand over the money, you will not be able to either escrow or freeze it. I don't think you can do this without legal help. Your local Bar Association should be able to help you find someone who will either work pro bono or cheaply and those lawyers are generally very honest.

In addition, if the money is overseas, you will need to get local legal help to enforce the judgement which will involve knowing exactly where the money now is (bank and account number).
Thank you so much re: about custody.

Thanks, good to know about male/female and that it has nothing to do with being a minority.

I had not thought about this. I will will say 60% of the house proceeds because she has been staying there for free. What she would have paid as rent would have been $320k. What do you think?

I do not have a judgement. the perkins are not willing to give back the money. I will seek legal help through BAR and look for any other proper channels. The money is in the USA.
Originally Posted by WierdSituation
Thank you so much re: about custody.

Thanks, good to know about male/female and that it has nothing to do with being a minority.

Your custody result is close to ideal; no payments mean no conflicts.


Originally Posted by WierdSituation
I had not thought about this. I will will say 60% of the house proceeds because she has been staying there for free. What she would have paid as rent would have been $320k. What do you think?

If she is living there now and the house cannot be divided, it will need to be sold. Then ask for the amount of 'free' rent to be deducted from the proceeds before dividing the remainder amount 50:50. You don't want to own 60% of the house your ex wife is living in, that would be a terrible mess. She would owe you rent that she would never pay.

Originally Posted by WierdSituation
I do not have a judgement. the perkins are not willing to give back the money. I will seek legal help through BAR and look for any other proper channels. The money is in the USA.

The fact that the money is in the US is very helpful. Find a lawyer through your local Bar - you are in NYC if I recall and they are excellent. In the meantime pull together all the records you have that show the movement of money out of marital savings and where it went. You will probably need to subpoena destination bank records, that is not expensive but if the money is in another state you may need a local lawyer.
Originally Posted by living_well
Your custody result is close to ideal; no payments mean no conflicts.

I am not sure about the payments. The children's lawyer said that has not been dealt with and it will be dealt with as part of assets. assets is what is left. it looks like one if us has to pay child support.

Originally Posted by living_well
If she is living there now and the house cannot be divided, it will need to be sold. Then ask for the amount of 'free' rent to be deducted from the proceeds before dividing the remainder amount 50:50. You don't want to own 60% of the house your ex wife is living in, that would be a terrible mess. She would owe you rent that she would never pay.

She wants to sell the house. Dividing the house will be hard consider how this divorce has been very acrimonious not that actually a good idea. I do not think she will want to divide considering how she has treated me.

Fantastic idea to ask the free rent from proceeds before division. I will be on it.

Originally Posted by living_well
The fact that the money is in the US is very helpful. Find a lawyer through your local Bar - you are in NYC if I recall and they are excellent. In the meantime pull together all the records you have that show the movement of money out of marital savings and where it went. You will probably need to subpoena destination bank records, that is not expensive but if the money is in another state you may need a local lawyer.

The money is in another state. Do I subpoena a bank or the brother and hiw wife(the receipients)? About 2.5 years ago my previous lawyer subpoenaed WW's brother and his wife. They did not respond which means they do not want to return the money back. Thecbrither even write to me saying I should not send him any more subpoenas but I have the records that they received the funds. I will still subpoena them anyway if that is what I have to do. That said I was thinking that I expose WW, her brother and wife - the later two are partners in crime with WW. Who should be the exposure targets? The exposure targets I had in mind are:
1. Friends and family of the brother and his wife.
2. Her friends and family of WW
3. the company her brother works for
4. the company her brother's wife works for
5. the company(and HR) WW works for
6. Letter asking her brother and wife to return the funds. 

What do you think?
...in addition since the brother and wife have collaborated on this "crime" should I worry that exppaing them would ruin any chance of them and me having a relationship(salvaging? They have destroyed my relationship with them by their action. Would they 3ven see that WW did the wrong thing? Maybe they even split the money.
Originally Posted by WierdSituation
...in addition since the brother and wife have collaborated on this "crime" should I worry that exppaing them would ruin any chance of them and me having a relationship(salvaging? They have destroyed my relationship with them by their action. Would they 3ven see that WW did the wrong thing? Maybe they even split the money.

If I recall, Dr Harley said you should expose what she did. No need to expose to them because they already know what they did. Expose to the rest of the family - her parents for example and anyone else who you think she might listen to.

But stick to the facts. On xxxxxx date my wife filed for divorce triggering automatic orders which prohibited any movement of funds whether separate or marital. On xxxx date she moved $xxxxx dollars from our account xxxxx to that of her brother and his wife (as much detail as you can of amounts and dates) violating the automatic orders of the court.

I would like your help in making her reverse this action which is hurting me and our children and which ultimately will hurt her too when the judge issues a contempt order against her.

By the way, there is no crime. Her offence is civil not criminal. Stick to the facts, don't get bogged down.
Living_well - thank you, thank you! Brilliant! I willl get to it ASAP.
I finally exposed about the money this weekend(Saturday morning). I used Yamm with Gmail to send email at once. It personalizes it. No response from her friends and family. I have not heard from her, her brother or his wife. I exposed to some from my side. Quiet. Only a few people replied. They said what she did was bad and that this gave a clear picture of what she did. 2 people said mpove on. Some said they will reach out to her. People ask other questions And do not focus on what is on the ask. A little bit annoying. I had to educate some. They all mean well.

I actualy feel great. I am a little concerned about the silence. It would be interesting to hear from her.

Exposure is great!
That’s awesome to get that clarity out there to replace the obfuscation. I’m glad some folks were brave enough to reach back out to support you.

Great work!
Thank you. Kids told me she was upset all weekend. This is the result of the exposure.
Better for her to get used to the truth being out there now than to fear when would it come out. Folks would judge her more harshly keeping this a secret for many many years. Or once your kids were grown wonder if your girls knew and taint them with that too. Your honesty was by far best for everyone so you and your kids can get the support you need and heal.
Thank you very much. Exposure is magic. It is working.

Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
Or once your kids were grown wonder if your girls knew and taint them with that too.
Do you mind expounding on this. I could not put the pieces together.
Thank you living_well, Brainhurts, goody2shoes and all. Thank you all. I just want to thank you all for helping me go through the exposure. Scary as hell at the beginning. Once I hit the first send button I felt such a relief in my whole body. Since exposure I feel very good My body, mind and spirit feel great. I feel healing for the first time since separation.

Thank you living_well. You are a magician! The letter you composed was so effective. I do not know how to thank you. Thank you for inspiring me to keep at the exposure.
Originally Posted by WierdSituation
Thank you living_well, Brainhurts, goody2shoes and all. Thank you all. I just want to thank you all for helping me go through the exposure. Scary as hell at the beginning. Once I hit the first send button I felt such a relief in my whole body. Since exposure I feel very good My body, mind and spirit feel great. I feel healing for the first time since separation.

Thank you living_well. You are a magician! The letter you composed was so effective. I do not know how to thank you. Thank you for inspiring me to keep at the exposure.
You’re very welcome. I’m so glad that you’re seeing the positive effects from it.

Dr. Harley makes it clear that is never about revenge, but mostly to get the support for the BS and of course bringing the truth to light.
I mean it is good you got it all out in the open now. The kids said their Mom was upset this weekend. Better to come to terms with it now. If it came to light decades later people may wonder when your kids found out. Or your kids could find out and worry how to talk to you about it. Now it it all in the open already.
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
I mean it is good you got it all out in the open now. The kids said their Mom was upset this weekend. Better to come to terms with it now. If it came to light decades later people may wonder when your kids found out. Or your kids could find out and worry how to talk to you about it. Now it it all in the open already.
Thank you. I uunderstand now.
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
You’re very welcome. I’m so glad that you’re seeing the positive effects from it.

Dr. Harley makes it clear that is never about revenge, but mostly to get the support for the BS and of course bringing the truth to light.

Someone wrote to her saying "I just wanted to give you adivise you mustn't divorce". I think that is funny and maybe wierd. No? I guess people will have their own take.

The sense l have of her.. is coming back is defeat for her...she would probably love for me to come back on my knees begging her to take me back. lol

She has not spoken with me since exposure...I think she is just going to make everything hard for me ...esp any negotiation on shared/marital things. She has never made it easy anyways.

She is a vengefull person...my feeling is she maybe thinking of ways to come back on me.
How do you know someone wrote to her about not divorcing?

Do you have an end date for when the divorce will be final?
A friend of mine who wrote this to her told me that us what she she wrote to WW.

We do not have an end date. We have been asked to submit the Follwing by November 25th.
1. Networth
2. Statement of disposition as to the asset(house)
3. Tax returns for the last 3 years

We will appear in court on Dec 1 and 20th for trial of asset/financial/child support. I do not know the end date. They do not tell you. I think it is coming to an end hopefully first or 2nd quarter next year.
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