New here. We are both 45, married "older" at 35. Together for 2 years prior to marriage. First marriage for both but we had both had previous LTRS. We have one 4 year old son with serious disabilities. His birth is when the problems started.

I just finished reading HNHN so I'm going to use it as a starting point.
My top 5 needs are probably more masculine than most but I've always been a tomboy so I guess it's not that surprising. In order for me: recreational companionship, family commitment, honesty and openness, sexual fulfillment, and physical attractiveness. I would say financial support would be a close 6th but it didn't used to be for reasons I will explain. Bottom of my list is admiration and intimate conversation (I get plenty of that from my sister and female friends).

My husband refuses to read the book so I'm just guessing his based on what I know of him: sexual fulfillment, admiration, domestic support, financial support although once again this is in an unusual way, and recreational companionship.

So it sounds like we ought to be mostly OK since we have a couple that overlap, right? Unfortunately, having read the book, I think that at least part of our problem is that neither one of us has a need for non sexual affection or intimate conversation. And I think both are important enough that we probably need them even if we don't think we do.

Ok, the issues -
1. recreational companionship #1 for me #5 for him. But I want to be out DOING things - hiking, skiing, traveling, adventuring. He used to like those things, but these days he is significantly overweight (will address later) and his idea of recreation is watching a baseball game or playing a video game together. Neither of which I want to do at all. I want to be outdoors!

2. Sexual fulfillment #4 me #1 him. Neither one of us cares much about emotional connection in sex. We both like our sex results driven. Unfortunately for me once he has achieved climax he could care less if I do or not. He very often finishes quickly and leaves me to finish alone or not at all. He's also a very rough lover and has hurt me more than once. There is NO love making to our sex. Which makes me not want to have sex much even though I have a strong need for it. He's also around 330 pounds these days which has mostly killed my physical attraction to him. And he doesn't care about his weight.

3. Family commitment: #2 for me, not even on his radar. He spends almost zero time with our son. Never bonded with him. Sometimes I truly believe he wishes he had never been born. We literally never go anywhere as a family except to visit family and even that is rare as I can't stand his parents and he can't stand mine. He can't be bothered learning how to relate to our son despite his disabilities. Has gone so far as to suggest that we have him institutionalized. Which I will NEVER agree to. If it comes to choosing between my husband and my son, my son will win.

4. Honesty and openness: #3 for me, once again, it's not even on his radar. In fact I sometimes think he is a pathological liar. He doesn't just lie to get out of trouble or to avoid unwanted consequences, he lies about things that are not even important. He also refuses to be open with me about how he spends his time when he is not at home. I can't begin to count the number of nights dinner has gone to waste because he's late coming home from work and doesn't bother to call and tell me, just gets fast food and eats it in his car.

5. Physical attractiveness: #5 for me at this time. I don't think it matters much to him. It wasn't a big deal for me either until he hit about 280 and just kept gaining. He's well over 300 pounds and it's neither attractive or healthy. It sounds horrible but it's disgusting. The thought of sex with him these days makes me ill. When we do have sex now we usually do it with him behind me.

6. Financial support: This didn't used to be a big deal for me because I had a good job. But our son needs full time care and although we have a home health aid who comes in a few times a week I still don't feel right working outside the home. I also don't drive anymore which is also an impediment to working outside the home. I do have a small home based business doing social media "ghosting" and web development. So financial support is very important to me now. But it's not an issue because he has a really good job. Which he loves BTW. For him, though, there is a problem with me not working. Even though we can afford it, he feels like I am lazy and taking advantage of him. Which leads into

7. Domestic support. Which is a big deal to him because his mother was June Cleaver. Little miss perfect homemaker. H and FIL and BIL never did ANYTHING around the house. If MIL got sick she still soldiered on. And if she was in the hospital, BIL's wife and I were expected to come over and take care of the house for FIL. My H expects me to be the same way. He does NOTHING to help out at home - not even the typical guy things like mowing the lawn shoveling the driveway or washing the car or taking the car for repairs when necessary. He says if I can't do it then hire someone. Which to me is hard because I grew up poor and spending money on mowing or plowing or whatever seems horribly wasteful. I am a good housekeeper, but there are days when I can't keep up with my son's needs AND keep the house to his standards AND put a meal worthy of his mother on the table. So he just eats out while I'm stuck at home eating alone while his dinner gets cold.

8. Admiration - this is a big deal to him that I'll admit means nothing to me. I am trying to work on it but lately I don't find much in him to admire other than he is a good provider. Which is sadly offset by the fact that he is grossly obese and a lousy father.

9. Non sexual affection - he likes back rubs once in a while. I like foot rubs once in a while. I wouldn't mind if he was a little more snugly sometimes especially when I am down (I suffer from anxiety on a regular basis. He doesn't believe anxiety is a real psychological and medical condition. Which pisses me off.) We very rarely touch each other outside the bedroom. We never have. I don't miss it and if he does he's never said so.

10. Intimate conversation - we are both quiet, introverted people. Yes, we used to talk more, about things like books and music and other topics of interest. We know each others' pasts pretty well. I know his first fianc� broke his heart by sleeping with his best friend. He knows I was date raped in college. Nowadays conversation consists of arguing about where to go for dinner (he prefers going out to eating at home) or how the Yankees and Bills are doing this season (lousy). The kind of things I talk about with my female friends (politics, celebrity gossip, the latest episode of GoT) he rolls his eyes and zones out. All he ever talks about is Call of Duty and World of Warcraft and Skyrim but at least I listen.

A couple of other things that don't fit above but do fit into the whole Joint Agreement thing I suppose:

Church is important to me. I'm very religious and it's also my only social outlet. All my family and friends are there. Not only does he not want to go with me, he wants me to stop going. And to not openly practice my Christian beliefs around him. This partly goes back to his lying. He actively pretended to be a Christian while we were dating to win me. He dumped it practically as soon as the ink was dry on the marriage license. He's actually an atheist with little use for organized religion.

The less important thing is music. I like Celtic and contemporary Christian. He likes metal and heavier alternative. There's not much common ground between Mercy Me and AC/DC. But he insists on listening to his music in our house when I'm there but won't let me listen to mine when he is at home.

I guess it comes down to I feel like I am the one making all the compromises to make it work and he's not willing to compromise at all. I desperately want to change this dynamic, for our child's sake as well as my own. Having read the book, I see some changes I can make and I'm willing to try. But shouldn't he meet me halfway?

Sorry so long....

Welcome to MB.

Dr Harley's MB programme does not recommend compromising, if by that you mean doing some of the things that you like and he hates, and vice versa, or putting up with some behaviours that you hate that he wants to do, and vice versa. If you do that, it means that half the time you are unhappy, and the other half, he is.

Instead, Dr Harley recommends the Policy of Joint Agreement, where you do things together that you are both enthusiastic about, and leave aside the things that one of you dislikes. If you cannot find things to do that you are both enthusiastic about, you do nothing, while brainstorming until you find things that you both have enthusiasm for.

The "Love Busters" part of the programme means that you stop doing things that withdraw love units. If he does not like hearing your music, for example, then don't play it when he is around - and the same would go for him.

The problem, though, is that he seems unwilling to try to meet your emotional needs, or to avoid love busters, or to use POJA in decision making. He seems unwilling to change his behaviour at all; you can like him or leave him. Would you agree with that assessment?

I agree with your assessment that right at the moment he is unwilling. I am hoping that if I do better at meeting his needs and lowering my LB behavior, he might get on board the program with me. It's that whole POJA that is a problem for me. If one of the things he is not enthusiastic about is spending time with his own child, and one of the things neither one of us is enthusiastic about is spending time with the other's family - how do I accept that? I love my husband. But I also love my son. And my family. And he loves his family. I really feel sometimes like I am being asked to choose between them because my husband only wants to be with me alone and that's when he's home at all which is less and less as time goes on. On top of that our son has a limited life span - I can't bear the idea of sending him away when we only have maybe a decade more with him, as long as we can afford to get the care he needs at home. Surely your children fall outside the realm of the POJA?

What do you mean by his spending less and less time at home as time goes on? Where does he spend his time? Doesn't he come straight home after work?

Are you saying that he does not want to be around his son because of his disabilities? Does he want him to be put into care?

BMH, are you unwilling to follow the POJA? It sounds like you are also unwilling and believe certain things should not apply to the POJA. There are situations where the POJA would not apply and that is typically in marriages where there is abuse or adultery.

Dr Harley says that if a couple won't follow the policy of joint agreement the marriage is not likely to last because they will grow incompatible, which leads to a loss of love.


You negotiate solutions that suit you both. For example, my H and I don't spend much time with each others families because our marriage comes first. I don't much like some of his family and he doesn't like some of mine. SO, we only spend time with the family members we both like for the amount of time that suits us BOTH. Our marriage is strong and happy because we make decisions together.

i will tell you that I used to force reluctant agreements out of him and that always backfired, making us BOTH unhappy. I quickly learned that is a stupid strategy because sacrifice leads to resentment and eventually an unhappy marriage. That is how incompatibility is created.


Where does he go? Why is he home less and less?

Should the Policy of Joint Agreement Be Violated When Trying to Meet Your Spouse's Emotional Needs?

He works Monday through Saturday, 12 hours a day M-F and about 4 hours a day on Saturday. Sundays he usually spends at his parents house or with his brother. His commute is 2 hours per day and he travels overnight a few times a month sometimes for up to a week at a time.

And yes, he wants to have our son institutionalized. It was his mother's idea initially but he is totally on board with it. He is very uncomfortable around our son and can't seem to learn to interact with him. We have a state provided home health aide 20 hours per week but she is rarely there when he is and he blames our son for taking all my time. I'm his mother and the doctors have told me that I will probably lose him before he is 18 so it's really hard for me to be away from him. Especially since he has bad spells that could theoretically be fatal at any time so I have real anxiety about being away from him. Especially since all my husband ever wants to do is go to the bar or the ballpark or the arcade or the casino none of which I consider worth leaving our son for. I would much prefer it if we could go to family friendly places with good handicapped accessibility and take our son with us but H doesn't like taking him anywhere with us. I don't honestly know if he thinks it's too much hassle or if he is actually ashamed of him. When I actually try to give him the benefit of the doubt I wonder if he's afraid something will happen to son while he is with him and he won't know how to deal with it, so he avoids it out of fear. If he refuses to bond with him because he knows we are going to lose him. But he won't talk to me about it so I just don't know.

So I should just give up my #2 emotional need - for family connectedness - because he's not enthusiastic about spending time with our son? I've already compromised on my #5 so that he continues getting his #1.

I am very curious - how many people here would actually institutionalize a terminally ill child to save their marriage? How do you choose between the needs of the child and the needs of the parent? And would it save my marriage anyway, when I would spend the rest of my life resenting him for it?

I don't want to leave my husband. And I don't think he would ever force this issue. But I need to find a way to get us back on track from all the barriers our son's very existence seem to have built between us. It's very lonely, and it's breaking my heart.

Good grief - that's over 60 hours per week. That is not normal. Why does he have to work such hours? Is he doing overtime?

There cannot be a marriage in between all the hours spent like that. If your marriage is to improve and thrive, this all needs to end; the long hours, and the overnight travel. All of it.

One of the most important things that Dr Harley encourages us to do is to understand the issue from our spouse's perspective. Are you trying to do with this with your H, about your son?

Perhaps he is just embarrassed, and has failed to bond with your son, as you say. However, perhaps he considers that a great strain has been placed on your marriage, and perhaps he sees a caring institution as potentially good for all of you.

If you wish to rule out a care institution (and nobody would blame you for that), you still need to try and understand the problem that your husband is seeing. I suspect that he feels that there is no room left for the marriage because your son's needs dominate. What can you do to somewhat alleviate that situation? How can you have a marriage - which means romantic time alone together, preferably out of the house - and still know that your son is being well cared for, without feeling that you are neglecting him?

When does he get to go out on dates with you? It doesn't sound like you have time or space for your marriage and he has checked out. Most people don't want to go out with kids all the time. Marriage Builders recommends 4 4 hour dates per week, AWAY FROM CHILDREN, friends, etc. This program doesn't work without that step.

Harley recommends spending 15 hours per week with family and 15+ hours per week for your marriage, out on dates meeting the top 4 intimate emotional needs of conversation, affection, recreational companionship and sexual fulfillment. Are you even willing to do that?

Have you read this?
The Critical Importance of Undivided Attention

What a minute: when did anybody say any of this?

You posted this in reply to my asking whether your husband wants to put your son in care. That's all I asked.

How did you go from that to "So I should just give up my #2 emotional need - for family connectedness - because he's not enthusiastic about spending time with our son?"

Marriage Builders does not recommend that you give up your most important emotional needs. If you do that, the outcome will be that you fall out of love with your husband. The point about emotional needs is that, when they are met by your spouse, they build love units and help you fall in love with him. Therefore, for you to give up trying to get an important emotional need met would be counterproductive. The goal is to create love in your marriage. The solution is to negotiate and brainstorm with your husband about how you can get your FC need met by him in a way that he can be enthusiastic about meeting it.

"How do you choose between the needs of the child and the needs of the parent? And would it save my marriage anyway, when I would spend the rest of my life resenting him for it?"

Nobody would tell you to institutionalise a terminally ill child to save your marriage, if you are against this. And of course, the degree of resentment that the act would create would harm the marriage anyway. again, that would be counterproductive, so there is no point in doing it.

I think the problem is that you are looking at this from the outset in very either/or terms. You seem to see your marriage and your son as part of a zero sum game; if one benefits, the other loses.

I encourage you to try and understand your marital problems, and in particular, the issue of your son, from your husband's perspective, and encourage him to see them from yours. The aim is to find a way to care for your son at home, and to meet each other's needs in ways that you can be enthusiastic about.

I do think that, since this is a very unusual situation for this forum (many posters here have kids with special needs, but I have't come across any where it is known from the outset that the child's lifespan will be limited) you would benefit from writing directly to Dr Harley. he will give you advice for free, and follow up with you for as long as you need.

We on the forum would be very interested to know how he advises you, so that we can help other posters in the future.

He doesn't want to go on "dates" with me. He wants to go to the arcade and play video games for hours like a 16 year old. He wants to go to the casino and waste money on a pass time I consider a sin. I'm not 100% sure he's not using prostitutes at the casino since he's admitted to doing so in the years between his last LTR and our relationship. The only thing he really seems to want from me is a 5 minute long sexual encounter a few times a week that consistently leaves me either frustrated, sore, or both.

And as far as the job - he works closer to 80 hours a week when all is said and done, and has since before I met him. He's had this job for almost 20 years now and I'm fairly sure the job means more to him than ANY person ever has. He's on call 24/7/365 and ALWAYS volunteers to work holidays - get this - so that people WITH FAMILIES won't have to. He's never once taken a vacation since I've known him. He just cashes out his vacation pay at the end of every year. He didn't leave work for our son's birth and he hasn't been to one of his MANY drs appts since he was an infant. If he's checked out, I'm sorry to say it happened right about the moment we got the diagnosis which by the way is Krabbes which is what Jim Kelly's son had.

Oh and his hours and travel are because he's a district manager for one of the big box retail chains. And his local corporate headquarters which he has to check in with every morning is an hour away from where we live. His choice not to move closer, not mine.

I suspect that he checked out as the extent of your son's needs became apparent, and as they grew. I think it was possibly made worse by the way that you seem to want to put the boy first at all times; taking him out with you always, and not letting anybody else care for him, while he himself needs round the clock care. While it's admirable to do that for your son, there was no pace for you two as a couple in this scenario.

You seem to have been prepared to let the romantic side of your marriage go completely, in favour of total family commitment. Your husband hasn't been happy with this, but you prioritise your child's needs over his. That happens in most marriages while the kids are little, and that's why those years are so precarious. For you, though, the years of prioritising your child have gone on and on. Does he even go to a day school?

If you organise your life around the threat that your son could die at any time, and will certainly die young, then that will dominate your whole marriage. There will be no time for affection, or dates, and no scope for interesting (never mind intimate) conversation, because your entire head space is taken up with the needs of your son. And from what I can see, you are painting your husband as a bad person for not wanting that domination to continue.

The problem is that, if you go on neglecting the romantic side of the marriage, one day there will not be any marriage left. With your husband already working very long hours, and spending the rest of his free time with his family, I'd say that day is not far away. Would yo agree?

What are you prepared to do about that? Do you think it should be all up to your husband to put his need for a marriage on the back burner until your son is no longer with you?

What kinds of things did you when you were dating? You probably also want him to do things he doesn't want to do - such as take your son out - so the solution is to brainstorm and find things you will BOTH love.


Regardless of when he checked out, he can check back in if he chooses to do so. It sounds like he checked out when your son was born. The key will be motivating him to check back in by including him in your marriage.

This is really terrible, and nobody here would EVER say that you should live like this.

I suspect that he is having an affair or using prostitutes. The nights away give him the perfect opportunity to do this. So, as well as all the other things we have written to you about, you need to get spying to find out what he does when he is away overnight, or at the casino. If he is engaging with other women, then nothing you do will ever meet his emotional needs, because he is getting them met elsewhere; principally, the one for sex.

Please write to Dr Harley. I think you need his specialist advice. He will have seen this problem, including having a child with special needs, many times before.

Email your questions to Joyce Harley at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com. When your email question is chosen to be answered on the radio show, you will be notified by email directing you to listen to the rebroadcast. If you would like to consider being a caller, include your telephone number. You will be called by us to explain the procedure to you. Every caller will receive a complementary book by Dr. Harley that addresses their question.

No, the POJA protects your son, because it says you do nothing unless you are both enthusiastic. You aren't enthusiastic about institutionalizing your son, so your husband will have to come up with another option.

I think you need to snoop like a bloodhound and prove whether or not your husband is having an affair, for what it's worth.

Are emailed questions only answered via radio? I don't have high speed internet, only cellular service with a limited data plan, so I can't do streaming media or use apps that require full time internet access. Even our cellular service is still only 3G where we live, which is a real dead zone for internet still. That's part of the reason I don't want to put my son in full time care - there is no place we can put him near where we live, and since I don't drive, I wouldn't be able to visit him unless I had others who could take me. Which I don't.

Also, I don't think my husband would agree to airing our story that way, even anonymously. He is a very private person and would probably be very upset if he found out even that I am posting here. But since he won't let me talk to a counselor or my pastor, I don't know what else to do anymore.

I don't see how he could be having an affair. When he travels, he's in a different town or city every night, and often he doesn't know where he is going more than 24 hours in advance. Most of his work involves assisting with opening new stores, closing under performing stores, or "putting out fires" (crisis management). He's very good at what he does and he takes his job very seriously. But it would be difficult for an affair partner to join him. And there is only one casino in his region and he doesn't get out that way all that often. But even if he's not using prostitutes, he's blowing about $1000 a month gambling which to me is almost as bad as cheating. When he doesn't get to the casino, he spends his Saturday afternoons at the local Off Track Betting bar with his brother and their old high school buddies.

I know it's hard for him. I only deal with a stressful home environment. He has to deal with a stressful home and work environment. I just don't know how to make home less stressful. It might help to get a full time live in caregiver for our son but as long as he keeps gambling (and he ALWAYS loses) we can't afford it. The state aid we get for him only goes so far.

And even if we could somehow solve the issue with our son, we still have so many other issues to address. His weight. The lousy sex. Him thinking I am lazy because I don't work outside the home. Him never being home except to sleep. His constant disrespect in never telling me when he's going to be home late or not at all on any given night.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not going to leave him (unless he's cheating or tries to force the issue of institutionalizing our son). But I want to have a good marriage again - more like it used to be before our son was born and H checked out emotionally.

Missed this question last night. When we were dating - we went to sports bars and watched football. Had sex. Went out to eat at expensive restaurants. Had sex. Went to the beach. Had more sex. Went to museums, long road trips, camping, hiking, concerts, antiquing. Had even more sex. Went for rides on his motorcycle and went to every Renaissance Faire on the East Coast. And you guessed it, more sex.

I know this - our relationship would never have even gotten off the ground if we hadn't started sleeping together only 2 weeks after we met. And now? Of all the stuff on that list, the only things we still do are go out to eat and have sex. And it's not good sex like it used to be. It's just about him getting off.

Our son is too small to need a wheelchair yet. He rides in a specially equipped stroller. We don't even need a handicap van yet. There is no reason whatsoever that we couldn't still get out and do things as a family. Plenty of other people do it. But he won't. And he won't even tell me the reason why.

Ok I have what may be a strange question. It seems to me that you can manipulate the POJA just by the way you word it. I can say, I'm less than enthusiastic about working outside the home. My husband could retaliate by saying that he is less than enthusiastic about me being a SAHM. At this point, do you just maintain the status quo? So that since we weren't aware of POJA before I quit working last February, I would continue not working? This is just an example I chose to explain my question, since my H has no actual say in whether or not I go back to work since I no longer have a drivers license.

You might not see how he could be having an affair, but I can! In your description there's literally no end to opportunities. There's probably not just one affair partner. Have you considered that? I'd venture to say that every man I know of who lives the lifestyle your husband does has a partner in every city, prostitutes on the side, and possibly even partners that were willing to go out of their way to meet up with him trying to gain some advantage by doing so.
Why, given his history, do you trust him not to be doing it anywhere and everywhere? From my viewpoint you are putting your son at the huge risk of having a mother sick with STDs.
if you don't have the motivation or personal energy to snoop and find out if he is or is not having affairs then please for your own safety hire a PI to find out.

What happened to your Drivers license?

This is the kind of stuff you would plan for your dates. You would find things to do that you both enjoy. The reason you don't enjoy sex NOW is because you are not emotionally attached to him. Going out on dates will change that. Women need 2 things to desire sex: an emotional attachment and the prospect of enjoyment.


So you shouldn't try to force him to do that. Try to find things to do that you both like.

The default position is to do nothing, NOT to maintain the status quo.

I can't think of a more perfect environment to have an affair. He is free to do whatever he wants and you would never know.

See that's what I don't get. If you do nothing, nothing gets done. I don't want to do the dishes alone. He doesn't want to help. Therefore the dishes simply don't get done? Same could apply to any type of chore. He wants me to work. I don't want to work (this isn't actually the case but continuing the example). How can you do nothing in such a situation? I'm already not working so by default I'm getting my way if we do nothing.

It was revoked after I had an accident that was determined to have happened due to a depth perception issue that unfortunately can't be surgically corrected. However I don't qualify for disability because my home business brings in more than the minimum allowable income.

BUT, he is not enthusiastic about doing the dishes. You can't force him to do anything. If you don't want to do the dishes alone, then don't do the dishes. But you should not force your husband to do dishes.


The same answer applies. You are not enthusiastic about working and he should not force you to do something against your will.

That seems to me like making excuses to be lazy. I HATE doing housework. I do it because it needs to be done. My H refuses to help because his childhood upbringing taught him housework was women's work and only a single man living alone should ever have to do it. If we both got what we wanted, our house would be a pigsty! The only solution I can see is hiring a maid service and as long as he refuses to stop gambling that's just not something we can afford.

I learned very early in our relationship that if something needed to be done I would have to do it myself. Prior to our marriage, my husband was literally leaving his apartment a disaster area for weeks at a time until his mother came over and took care of it for him. He is an unrepentant slob - but I have to give him credit for doing a very good job of hiding it from me until we were married. I know Dr Harley doesn't think living together prior to marriage is a good idea, but I never would have married him if we had lived together first. I would have run after a matter of weeks.

I want so much for us to return to our good days. Unless he is cheating, I have no Biblical grounds for divorce. So I NEED to find some way to fix this before I have a nervous breakdown. I've already been in the hospital 3 times in the past year with panic attacks that had me thinking I was dying.

I will try to talk to him this weekend about finding things we can do together as a couple again. I can't guarantee he'll stay home long enough to have a decent conversation though. After all, the NFL playoffs start this weekend, and that's SO much more important than your wife and family.

No: Dr Harley will write you a personal reply.

Have a look at MrAlias' thread in this forum (MB101) - just the last few pages would do. He has written to Dr Harley a few times, and has posted the replies for us to see.

Is living in a pigsty what you both want?

If not, how could that result be "if we both got what we wanted"?

I won't argue with you about having no Biblical grounds for divorce, but please realise that you don't need to divorce. However, unless his behaviour turns around quickly, you DO need to separate.

If your health has suffered this way already, you are well past the time to remove yourself from his behaviour. How did your husband respond to the hospitalisation - and by the way, who looked after your son at that time?

Did your husband see this in any way as a wake-up call, for him to support you instead of checking out of the marriage?

Dr Harley would NEVER allow a woman to wreck her health by putting up with her husband's marriage-destroying behaviour. Please write to him today. I am horrified by what I am reading.

Calling your husband lazy is very disrespectful. Trying to force him to do housework is controlling. However, we have a method that splits up domestic chores and the one who wants it done the most has to do the chore.

Even so, you have much bigger fish to fry so I wouldn't lose your focus on stuff like this. This is all part of recovery, but you need to work on the framework of your marriage before you can even tackle this type of stuff.

I can't afford to separate I only make about $8000/year and I can GUARANTEE you if we separated he would refuse support without a court order. He can be very vindictive and spiteful. I could never support our son by myself. And I've been told that the family court system would probably side with him on the idea of having our son institutionalized.

My parents came and stayed at our house for a few days after my panic attacks. All 3 were ER visits I was never admitted overnight. And luckily for me all 3 happened when our home health aide was at our house. She is a wonderful woman who has been a total blessing to us and I don't know what I would do without her. My H thinks I am too reliant on her and refuses to pay for her to come full time.

As far as his reaction to my panic attacks he basically told me I was being melodramatic and attention seeking and to grow up. He doesn't believe that mental illness exists. He thinks it's all just an excuse for bad behavior.

But, he is also correct that he is not responsible for my anxiety. That started after my accident which is not uncommon. Aside from no longer being able to drive, I now suffer from severe anxiety in certain situations including being in a car on bad roads (which is 6 months of the year here), being around crowds, being in loud places (the sports bars he loves so much).

I started reading Love Busters today. The story about Tom and Linda really struck a nerve. We are both disrespectful to each other. I complain far too much about his long hours, gambling (I've been pretty nasty about his losses), his weight problem (haven't exactly been nice there either), and lack of interest in our son. I HAVE deliberately held back on telling him how much I hate his current tendency to take his sexual fulfillment at the expense of mine. I know no man wants to hear he's a lousy lover. He tells me I'm lazy, overly concerned with our son's needs, I have no right to tell him what to do with his money when I don't work outside the home, I'm boring because I won't go to bars anymore, I'm a lousy cook and housekeeper who should take lessons from his mother. I'm willing to work on my disrespectful behavior. The question is whether or not it will prompt a positive response from him.

Well then, you get a court order. He won't be allowed to simply stop supporting you and his son.

You're not the first person that the courts have had to deal with when a man won't support his family. Find out, from a lawyer, how he would be made to to this.

And I don't live in the USA, but I simply don't believe that any judge would make any parent put her son into care just because her estranged husband wants it. You'd have to be an unfit parent for a judge to make any such order. If you live in the USA, I know that this is a civilised country with a civilised justice system. Disabled, well-loved kids are not taken from their mothers and put into institutions because their checked-out fathers demand this.

If you have the clinical condition known as anxiety, there is medical treatment available for that. Are you receiving it?

Your husband might not be responsible for your anxiety, but he is responsible for the obvious despair and depression that you display. Most women's depression is caused by their poor marriages, and that's what is happening to you.

You shouldn't be disrespectful, even when faced with terrible disrespect from your spouse, as you are.

However, I don't want to give you the impression that turning this marriage around can be done by you alone. Dr Harley is rather pessimistic when the wife tries to shoulder the burden of doing this, and the husband is not on board. He finds that the marriage can be rescued when it is the other way around, but he does not recommend that women should take on this task alone for long. You need to see results from your husband pretty soon, or you need to get him out. And I do not mean just his ending his disrespectful comments; I mean the long working hours, the possible affair or prostitutes, the gambling, the checked-out behaviour - all of it. You cannot rescue this simply by stopping your own DJs.

Why do you say this?

Are you familiar with the 1 Cor 7 Pauline exception for abandonment?

I, too, went to the hospital three times for panic attacks. There wasn't a fourth time; instead I incurred damage to my heart that I am still recovering from four years later.

It took a LOT of Bible studying to realize the wonderful clarity the Bible provides for separation and divorce in the event of unrepentant abuse.

Like you, I was conditioned to believe that divorce was only Biblical for adultery. Initially the Bible seems SO clear on that; however once I started researching it more deeply my initial error became very obvious.

I could hardly believe that the Bible would command a woman to submit to abuse until her destruction rather than divorce, and I'm thrilled to tell you that it doesn't! To understand, you need to question and look deeper into the verses that you have superficially interpreted your whole life.

Where would he go if you were hospitalized for a nervous breakdown? That is what you need to start thinking about. That is where you are headed. You would all survive a separation, it would be a disaster if you were hospitalized and unable to take care of your son. The court would force your husband to support you and your son and the state does not institutionalize children against the parents will.

Was reading another post where someone mentioned information on addiction intervention. I haven't been able to find it. Can someone please post the link?

Also, I have to ask - is it even ok for me to be posting here knowing he would be furious if he ever found out? He's a total "fixer" personality and if something is too broken for him to fix without the help of others, he'd rather just discard and replace it. I think that's why he's so good at his job. He has no qualms whatsoever, as most people do, about deciding to fire people or even close entire stores if they aren't performing up to his standards. I often wonder if this is his problem with our son. He can't fix him, so he avoids him because he can't accept it. Perhaps it's even why he's working so much lately - he hates my health issues because he can't fix them so he just avoids me.

Are you saying that he sometimes stays out all night?

His job requires it. He is a district manager and currently also acting regional manager for a large chain store. Every morning he reports to the regional office to get his assignments for the day and to attend meetings. He spends the rest of the day primarily traveling to the stores he is responsible for. As acting regional (a position he hopes to be offered permanently) he is responsible for a very large area - his northernmost store is almost to Canada, his southernmost is on the PA border, and east to west goes from Syracuse to Buffalo. If you know upstate NY, you know that's a lot of space to cover. We live between Syracuse and Rochester but about an hour south of I-90 so if he has to go to Buffalo or even Watertown he's probably going to spend the night. Also if there is a crisis that can't be controlled in a day. For example he expected to be home nights this week but now he's stuck out of town unexpectedly because a store manager quit suddenly and he has to be there until they either promote the assistant manager or hire somebody new. This has been known to take 2-3 weeks. New store openings and store closings have had him gone for over a month at times. He does come home on weekends if at all possible. Not that he ever spends any of that time with us, he's usually at Tully's or O'Grady's Pub or someplace like that watching sports with his "bros." He's already told me not to plan anything the next few weekends because of the NFL playoffs. Then it will be March Madness. Then baseball season will start and he and his brother and their parents will be off to every Yankees home game they can possibly manage. When I complain, his response is usually along the lines of be grateful he's not into pro basketball or hockey or auto racing as well. And he takes it SOOOOO seriously! This year, when the Yankees sucked, and the Bills sucked, and it looks like Syracuse basketball might not even make it to the tournament - he's is such a bad mood all the time that it's almost a relief that he's NOT around more. Nothing quite like the mood of a man coming home drunk and pissed off that his team just got trounced again.

And when he has to spend the night somewhere he doesn't always let you know? Am I understanding you correctly?

I strongly think you need to have spyware put on his devices. Can you get this done ASAP?

It's not that he doesn't let me know it's that he doesn't always do it in what I would consider a respectful time frame. He knows I start supper at 5. He should know by 5 whether or not he will be home that night, in time to let me know not to bother making/waiting dinner for him.

As far as his mobile devices, his phone, tablet, and laptop are all provided by and the property of his employer. I'm guessing it would be illegal for me to install anything on them he's not even allowed to put apps on them without prior approval from his IT department. Since they foot the bill, we've never seen the need to pay for him to have a private phone. Because it is a work phone and he's a fairly high ranking manager he has pass codes on everything. As far as our home computer, he only uses it for video games. We don't have high speed internet at home so he doesn't do MMORPG. Although I guess he does play WoW sometimes from his hotels. He has no social media accounts that I am aware of unless he is using an alias. He's always told me he thinks FB is nothing more than a chat room for immature female gossip and he has no use for it.

What do you do if you simply can't come to an agreement and it's been something you've been arguing about for YEARS? I am so tired of him spending all his non working hours watching sports but he just refuses to stop spending all his free time at the bar. This issue has existed since long before our son was born so it's not an avoidance thing. I used to go to these kinds of things with him but with my anxiety issues I just can't handle sports bars anymore they are just too loud. Not to mention the second game won't be over until around midnight and there's no way I'm leaving my son with a sitter for 8 hours straight 2 days in a row every weekend for the next month. I've gone so far as to offer to host game nights at our home but he says he likes the crowds and the "camaraderie" of the bar environment. While I worry about him getting hurt or arrested in a bar fight or DWI. Both of which he has done in the past.

After 4 days away this week he got home about midnight last night and went straight to bed. In the guest room not our bedroom. By 8 am he was already gone again said he had to go into his main office to catch up on paperwork. Told me not to expect him home until late because they are planning on going to O'Gradys for the 2 wild card games today. Tomorrow they are doing the same thing. He suggested I call my parents and that son and I spend the weekend with them if I "can't handle" being alone. I've been crying for the past half hour. I don't know if I can do this anymore. I feel like a single parent. Not to mention unloved, unwanted, and unimportant from his point of view.

You are a single parent and what you are describing is not a marriage. I would read this article about when to call it quits and come back and we can help you with next steps. here

Ok so what do I do now? Am I already at the point where I should be separating from him, or should I implement the HNHN and LB and POJA as much as possible when he IS home and just set a deadline on how long I am willing to do it?

And since my husband seems to think I am too needy, should I consider implementing the 180 program and see if he is more attracted to me if he sees me seeming to have a perfectly good life without him? When we met I had been living on my own for 15 years and was very independent and self sufficient and that was a big part of what he liked about me. Having a disabled child and having me not be able to drive or hold a job outside the home seems to make him feel overwhelmed by home responsibility.

Did you read the article?

Yes I did. I just don't know if all my past attempts to change things before I found HNHN are already enough to justify leaving now. Especially since I really don't want a divorce. I was raised to believe that divorce was not an option other than for adultery or physical abuse. I KNOW my family and church community will not think I have grounds to leave him. It's a hard thing to get past.

I will admit that I think my Love Bank for him is not only empty but negative. I'm guessing from his behavior that he feels the same way about me.

But the article does not suggest you "leave now;" it recommends doing Plan A for 30 days. You would begin by sending him a letter asking him to join you in a marriage, outlining the things that need to change to make you happy. You should do your best Plan A for 30 days and then ask him to leave if he won't comply. You would probably want to file for legal separation to ensure you are protected financially. This is your best hope to achieve a happy marriage.

Have you written to Dr Harley yet?

What is this? Is is something that you have seen Dr Harley recommend?

During that 30 days you might want to think about using the POJA for your driving. I know that you said you had a depth perception problem but this is not required to pass your vision test. About 1 in 10 people have somewhere between impaired and zero depth perception. I'm as blind as a bat in one of my eyes as a result of a botched repair as a child and the only eye test I ever failed was the commercial pilot's test. Even for the private pilot's license this is not a requirement although you could argue that it should be.

Whatever agreement you come to, this might be a good way to reach out to your spouse since he is obviously troubled by the fact you do not drive. If you do this, remember to think outside the box!

My dr revoked my drivers license so unfortunately not an option. I got rear ended at a traffic light because I stopped WAY too soon and the other driver wasn't expecting it. I've also been falling lately when moving from one height to another because I misjudge the distances. I've had terrible dizzy spells since the accident as well which makes me worry that I probably shouldn't drive even if I could. The dr said the dizzy spells are probably due to the anxiety.

I've been talking to SIL (H's brother's wife) she is apparently having similar problems with his never being with her on weekends. We have agreed that we are going to leave the kids with MY (specially trained) sitter tomorrow and join the guys for their games. We just won't drink with them. I know H will call me a wet blanket for refusing to drink but I just don't like it anymore. Hopefully I won't have an anxiety attack. And maybe tomorrow morning I'll skip church and see if he wants a bedroom session before breakfast.

So what is the plan? Are you reading my posts?

I'm working on drafting an email. I'm still not sure about doing so because if my H found out I had contacted a counselor he would be furious. He would see it as a major betrayal. I don't think a forum would bother him so much.

The 180 is from the Divorce Busters program. It advocates distancing from your spouse hopefully to make yourself seem less needy and to find out if it bothers them. If it doesn't bother them you know you have a major problem. Of course considering he's never home he might not even notice. Either way, it's pretty obvious that I need to stop acting so needy when he is home. If he doesn't want to interact with or even see our son, so be it. I'll stop nagging him about it since from what I've been reading, nagging someone tends to make them want to do the exact opposite of what you are asking for.

Well, I can almost guarantee you he won't take the time to read a letter. I used to email him when he was out of town and he never answered. He finally admitted he wasn't even reading them. I stopped giving him holiday and birthday cards because he would just toss them in the trash without even opening them to read the messages. He is NOT a sentimental or romantic minded man. Which is fine with me because I'm not inclined that way either.

Really my first plan is to see how he reacts to my plans to spend tomorrow with him instead of at church or at home with our son. What I do from there depends at least partly on him.

I also hope to be able to discuss the MB system with him. Although since he refused to read HNHN I don't know what kind of reaction I will get. I know in the past I've tried The Love Dare and The Five Love Languages programs and he told me to knock off with the bull sh*t already.

I think you need to stick to one marriage programme. If you are doing this one, you need to be working along the path of the article that MelodyLane asked you to read. In this, Dr Harley recommends that you do Plan A for 30 days. That is the opposite of the "180". You cannot do MB and Divorce Busters at the same time.

Are you posting on the DB forum? Is there anything else from that programme that you re mixing in with MB?

Thats fine, you can still give it to him. He might choose not to read it now, but will later. When you ask him to leave you can refer to the letter. The letter should outline your feelings about the marriage and show him a path back. We can help you construct the letter. That is how this should all start.


You could read the letter with him and tell him what you need to stay in the marriage. You would then give him 30 days to get on board. If he doesn't get on board, it is at that point that you would ask him to leave.

The 180 is the complete and absolute opposite of MB. The problem with the 180 is that it promotes detachment in marriages where the main PROBLEM is detachment. The problem obviously can't be the solution. Your husband is already detached, so more detachment won't be the solution.

We are not asking you to "nag him" but to respectfully invite him into the marriage by painting a rosy picture and telling him what you need. He can then decide to join or not.

We do not advocate "nagging."

If you think there is any possibility he is using prostitutes, I would not have sex with him. That is very risky.

This sounds a lot more serious than just a depth perception issue. I hope it resolves for you

Well he's already gone again. Got home around 2 am, slept in the guest room again, told me over breakfast he was going over to his parents to snowblow the driveway and clear the snow off their roof. Then he's going to hang out there until the games start. I asked him if he wanted us to join him and he said no it was too much hassle to get "the kid" ready to go anywhere. I had no time to have a conversation with him because he grabbed his coat and keys and left while I was in the shower. Leaving me to clear our driveway which really gets me because he knows how hard it is for me. But he's willing to do it for his parents. Who have a snow blower. We only have a shovel but a longer driveway than them.

It's pretty obvious to me at this point that he is actively avoiding spending time with me. Never got a chance to talk to him about joining him for the games this afternoon wonder now if he would even want me to. Guess I'll call my SIL and see how BIL reacted to the idea.

Why don't you call his parents and see if he is there.

He's cheating. No question about it because we caught him. His brother is also cheating. Not affairs with just one woman but once or twice screws in the back rooms of bars with different women every weekend. So probably the same thing on the road. They've apparently been playing wingman for each other and who even knows how long it's been going on.

SIL and I will be scheduling STDs first thing tomorrow. She also intends to get a lawyer and file for divorce immediately. But she doesn't have my Christian belief system. I at least want to discuss this with my parents and my pastor first. I probably will divorce him though. I don't know how I can forgive this.

I've been crying since my SIL came over a few hours ago and dropped the bomb. I had decided not to go to the bar tonight but apparently our conversation this week got her red flag radar going and she decided she would go without me. Both of our husbands were there with other women and when she confronted one of the employees she got an earful. Apparently the bar has rooms upstairs you can rent for a couple of hours to betray your spouse with total strangers. I'm half tempted to call the cops and find out if what they are doing is legal. Not that it would do any good.

I'm so confused right now. Lost. Hurt. Furiously angry. Suffocating. I married late because I was hoping maturity would bring better judgement and a marriage more likely to survive! So much for that idea.

They know that SIL saw them so I doubt either one will come home tonight.

Where the hell am I supposed to go from here? He almost has to come home if only to get clothes. Do I confront him? Do I just throw him out?

First of all... I am sorry!

Let me help you here.
1. Go gather his clothes up in garbage bags, put them outside,
2. Change your locks.
3. Leave a note telling him goodbye, here is your clothes, anything else will be discussed through lawyers, if he wants to see his child he may at this and this time and if he needs to speak to you -email this address.
4. Get yourself an IM (intermediary) who will answer the email and block him from your phone so you won't have to see his anger and gas lighting.
5. Go file for divorce just for protection.
(Filing is not the same as completing but it will protect you financially etc.
If you don't and he realizes that you know about his secret second life-he could go crazy with money, legally come take your son, etc... there really is a lot you need protection from regardless of how this plays out)
6. Go take your money from any joint account and put it into your own secure account.
7. Get yourself STD testing.
8. EXPOSE like crazy. Let everyone (not out of vengeance) know what he has been up too. This brings you the needed support your are going to need and is a light shining in the dark so he can never spin this as anything that it wasn't.
9. Get the book Surviving an affair form Dr. Harley and read it.
10. Remember that it is not your fault. There are always reason's but not excuses. This isn't your typical opps affair, this is a serial cheat who goes looking for this which makes him almost impossible to recover with.

I am glad that you at least now know the truth. You can make better decisions based on this. I think once you talk to a lawyer you will feel better as he will have to support you in the interim and to help pay for your child. (And there is no way ever they will force you against your will to put your child in an institution!!! Trust me, but go talk to a lawyer and you will see!

I will especially pray for you as you start walking this path.
Blessings- I know its not easy!

So sorry to hear this but at least you now know the nature of your problem. Your husband and his brother were doing exactly what they saw their father do. Because his wife never left him, they had no idea that this kind of behavior would have consequences.

This is the beginning of your recovery. You will soon feel far better than you can ever imagine.

Well I came downstairs this morning to divorce papers which based on the date on them he started filling out months ago. Along with a note stating he was planning on waiting until spring to file but since the cat is out of the bag he figured there was no point in waiting. He's sorry he hurt me but he can't handle the stress of a disabled child and well he doesn't think he's capable of sexual monogamy and he probably should never have married to begin with. I haven't more than glanced at the divorce papers so far because I'm just not emotionally ready to deal with it. I already called my SIL and it looks like BIL did the same thing to her. She's coming over in a little while so we can commiserate and talk about how we are going to handle this. I do know if he's this sure he wants a divorce I'm not going to fight him. I just can't believe I was that blind to not see that he was that completely detached apparently months ago - it would appear he started the divorce papers way back in April.

Thanks for the support and advice but it would appear that it is too late for us.

See an attorney asap. You may wish to counterfile if cause is considered in your state.

Also, go to the bank and get your money. You need to secure finances right away.

And keep that note he wrote you. That may be useful later.

Based on the papers, he's offering me everything I would ask for. He just wants out. He says I can have 100% custody with no visitation on his part, I can keep the house but he'll keep paying the bills. He says he'll continue to support us until our son passes and then he'll expect me to find a way to support myself. It's really obvious that he put a lot of thought into this and that he either cares enough, feels guilty enough, or both, to want to do right by us financially.

I feel a lot worse for SIL. BIL is apparently being a jerk. But from what she says their marriage was a lot better than ours so she's really in shock. I can't honestly say that I'm surprised at all. About the cheating, yes - but not really that he wasn't happy and wanted out. I just thought he was unhappy because of our son, not because he felt trapped being in a monogamous relationship.

I don't get it. My in laws have a really good, over 50 year marriage. How on earth did they manage to raise not just one but two sons who would act this way?

BMH, I am sorry to hear about this. My suggestion would be to jump all over this so you have legal protection. The most important thing right now is securing financial protection for you and your son. I don't envision that your husband will change, but you can offer him that option. But FIRST, visit an attorney and TAKE THIS DEAL! Get that secured before he has second thoughts.

I'm so sorry. Do you know if any of these women are married?

Very sorry that you have to go through this BMH.
You deserve a spouse who stands behind you and supports you through thick and thin.

You have to be strong now and first abd foremost think about the financial security in your situation. You can think about what to do next after that.
And do order surviving an affair, to know hiw to protect your mental health.

I have no idea. I wasn't the one who made the discovery. It sounds like they have just been bar hopppng picking up random women. SIL said when she walked into the bar they both were making out with much younger (20-something) women in what SIL referred to as "skanky" clothing. I won't go into the details SIL went into with me it's too depressing. I must say I had no idea that any of the bars in our area were renting out short term "hookup" rooms. I have no intention of asking H for details because I honestly don't want to know. I already find myself wondering if H and BIL were have 4somes or doing other things I was never willing to do with him.

I have an appt to see my pastor tomorrow. Going in for STD testing on Friday. Will contact a lawyer probably Monday I want to ask around at my church for recommendations on Sunday. Actually if at all possible I'd like to use mediation or collaborative divorce if anyone in my area does it. Assuming my H is willing. I definitely want to keep this out of court I don't think I can handle that level of stress.

And in case anybody recommends exposure, his family, my family, and SIL's family have already been told. He doesn't attend my church or indeed any church so there's no point there. I don't want the resulting pity and gossip anyway. And I can't expose him to his employer I can't afford to have him lose his job my son's medical expenses are astronomical and losing our current health insurance would be a nightmare. Besides, if he's willing to continue supporting us 100%, why would I want him to lose a $200,000/year job?

BMH, exposure to workplace is only recommended when there is a workplace affair. No one has recommended you do that. You need to just stay focused on protecting you and your family. That is the most important thing right now.

I'm very sorry you have reached this outcome. However, there are some silver linings to this cloud, you just can't see them right now because the cloud is so thick at the moment.

For one, you don't have to make the very hard to choice of whether to divorce or not. I could see this was very difficult for you based on your religious beliefs. But now you know that he is a serial cheater and habitual liar, and has no intention of ever changing this behavior. When it comes to serial cheating where the wayward spouse is actively seeking multiple affairs, the wayward spouse HAS to be 100% on board and willing to do anything it takes to even consider recovery, and even then it is very very difficult. You don't have that at all. You have a serial cheater who is 0% on board and has no intention of change. So, you don't have to make a valiant effort here afterall. You can divorce and there is nobody who would judge you for divorcing in this situation. You can go on and create an amazing life for yourself.

You also know that he doesn't care about your son and considers him a burden only. As a mother this is very hard to know I'm sure, but it gives you the strength to protect him and create a better life for him away from this person.

He has offered you a very good divorce deal. The best part of this deal is full custody with no visitation. Although in some ways you are angry and insulted for your son, at the end of the day, there are many divorcing mothers who would LOVE to have this option. If he walks away it will save you years of constant contact and headache dealing with a wayward. And I think it is the best case scenario for your son here too.

You can move on with no questioning or regrets, knowing you could have done nothing to save this marriage. You can create a better life for you and your son.

Again, very sorry for the pain you are going through. From the outside looking in, every day you are not with this man who seems to have little or no character, is a good day. You deserve so much better than this.

I would also highly recommend getting this divorce as quickly as possible so that he doesn't have time to change his mind about the generosity of his agreement. I wager it WILL happen. I don't think he has guilt at all, fueling the agreement. I think he is so wayward minded he just wants you and your son to go away. He knows the quickest way to make that happen is to give you everything you want. I see this happen with people I know, they get to that point they just want to get out and they don't care what they lose in the process. But eventually they start to regret being so generous. You want to close this deal before he gets to that point.

And then I recommend going into a dark Plan B to protect yourself from ever having to hear about his wayward behavior or rambling.

Here How to Plan B Correctly

As heartbreaking as it is, you and your SIL's lives are going to be better after this. Im glad you have each other to commiserate. I hope both of your divorces go smoothly.