Marriage Builders®
Posted By: anonymityplease any chance - 05/01/17 05:41 AM
So my marriage has been on the rocks for 2 full years now. It started when I got very depressed about some things. My wife & I have been married for 20+ years and have kids together in their late teens. Two years ago, she said, We're done. She's not a confrontational person and not very decisive. But every since that declaration, she has gradually built up stronger and stronger walls against me. We've been going to counseling for months. I'm doing absolutely everything possible to let her know I love her and want to be the husband she deserves. We still live in the same house together and she will act pleasant to me as friends and in public and in front of the kids, but she will not touch me or do anything loving towards me.

I've found out that she had an affair a few months ago. I read her texts. They didn't go all the way, but there was heavy kissing and petting and plans for intercourse. I confronted her about it with hopes that maybe (but unlikely) she would realize the error of her ways and choose to love me again, but I expected her to declare divorce.

Well, she did really neither. She wants space, freedom, and independence from me and the kids, but she's also not willing to end our marriage. She's very indecisive. And yet, she will not do anything that could be seen as a positive step for rebuilding our relationship. She did end the affair (physically, texting, everything). But she has not expressed much regret or remorse for it (which I can't understand because I wouldn't be able to live with myself for the guilt of having done something like that). And she makes no positive move towards me.

I keep hanging on to the fleeting optimistic hope that she will come to her senses and choose to love me again and not throw away our family and years of marriage and memories. I wish she would realize she has a good, decent man who absolutely wants to love her and enjoy life with her (and we used to do that).

Does anyone in this kind of situation ever come back around? I'm really afraid my marriage is a lost cause, but I'm not willing to give up. I keep fighting for our marriage in every possible way, but she does nothing recipricol. I've learned so much in the past 2 years about what I've done wrong (much of which I didn't even fully realize before). I could write a book about what I've learned about her, her needs, us, communication, relationships, my shortcomings, etc. And yet, she doesn't want to give us a chance.

Any chance or hope that someone like this might come back around? Or am I just wasting my time? Is it ever right for me to say, Enough. It's too painful the way she is treating me. She really has no good reason to reject me like she is, and yet she continually does.

I really hope, yes, there's hope. Thanks in advance.
Posted By: anonymityplease Re: any chance - 05/01/17 12:59 PM
I should add, what's tearing me up right now is that we've been in limbo for 2 years now. In other words, she isn't decisively leaving or divorcing me, but she is also not doing anything positive to rebuild our relationship. Even in counseling together, she is not opening up towards anything positive towards us and she keeps insisting on her needs and only her. And I am willing to meet her needs and love her and give her space to be herself, but she doesn't want me in the picture right now... and right now everything is one-sided... me making all the overtures and efforts, and her doing her own thing regardless of what it means to me or how much pain she is causing me.

The way I look at it, only 2 things are going to come from this. Either we are going to have a good, happy, honest, fun, loving marriage again, or we're going to divorce and part ways. She doesn't want to commit to either outcome. I am fully committed to us and a good life together the rest of our days. She's not willing to take even the slightest positive step in this direction because I imagine she thinks that that itself would inevitably be a decision... no chance at a single independent life on her own. But she's also not willing to take any big step towards splitting up either. It's like she's taking a thousand small steps in that direction by building walls over the past two years. But since she's not a decisive person and she doesn't want to regret making a wrong decision, she's only gradually moving in that direction.

All of this is ripping me to shreds. I don't want to waste the next 10, 15, 20 years of my life in this painful limbo, only to have her split from me. But I also don't want to divorce her right now because I still optimistically hope that she will come back around.

If we have any chance at a good marriage again, it's all in her hands right now because she is the only one holding back and I am making every effort for us to have a good life together. Part of me thinks I'm only prolonging the painful limbo because she is not going to make any decisive decision. But I also don't want to force the issue because I don't want her to make the wrong decision. Part of me says, enough of this. Move on. And when I'm out of the picture of her life maybe she will realize what a good thing she's throwing away. (Please don't think I'm arrogant or deluded by saying that. I'm a decent guy.)

Am I wasting my time? Or are there some stories out there in which the spouse who wanted independence and their own life came back around and realized the importance of a good life together with their original spouse? I hope so.
Posted By: markos Re: any chance - 05/01/17 01:23 PM
Hi, anonymityplease,

Welcome to Marriage Builders. I am sorry for what brings you here, but glad you are here, because many people here have been where you are and have ended up well.

YES there are plenty of cases here where a spouse had an affair and wanted independence and eventually came back around. But you should know that the path to recovery is very narrow. People who deviate from that path usually do not recover their marriages.

Have you looked at Dr. Harley's materials? He is our expert here and the plans here are based on his experience with thousands of couples, including many who have gone through infidelity. You should get his book Surviving an Affair right away because it contains a lot of information you need for recovery.

In Dr. Harley's experience the first step to recovery from an affair is usually when the betrayed spouse exposes the affair, telling family, friends, church, work, etc. about the affair and throwing the light of day on it. Have you done this?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: any chance - 05/01/17 01:31 PM
Hello AP, welcome to Marriage Builders. Yes, many of us have recovered our marriages using these concepts. Who is the OM? Does she still see him? Does she communicate with him in any way? Is he married? Does he live close by?
Posted By: anonymityplease Re: any chance - 05/01/17 01:38 PM
Yes, I've been working through some of Dr. Hartley's materials and like what I've seen. I agree with his values and perspectives. But there is a lot of material to sort through and since every situation is different, a lot of it doesn't apply to mine, even though I can learn important principals in the process.
Posted By: anonymityplease Re: any chance - 05/01/17 01:46 PM
The other man (is that "OM"?) lives 70 miles away. She met him while visiting there. They texted a lot and would meet up halfway between, probably to avoid accidental exposure to anyone they might know. And ever since I exposed the affair to her, she has not visited that city any more.

Another thing that makes this difficult to me is that I have no one to turn to in the midst of the most painful experience of my life. No one knows what she has done except me, her, and our counselor (which is getting expensive to maintain). I'm aching to talk to someone about all of this (when I'm not on a ticking clock having to pay)... but OTOH, I don't want to say anything to any friend or family because I'm afraid it will make the situation worse. I really want to move on from this to a happy marriage, and I'm afraid if anyone knows it will shame her and jeopardize any future we might have together.

Yet, I'm aching so bad and friends can sense something is not right. And I've tried to blow it off as work stress or sleep issues or other things without hinting that my marriage is on the rocks. That's why I'm turning to this forum for some free anonymous guidance. All of this and how to handle it is all so new to me. Thanks.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: any chance - 05/01/17 01:46 PM
Originally Posted By: anonymityplease
Yes, I've been working through some of Dr. Hartley's materials and like what I've seen. I agree with his values and perspectives. But there is a lot of material to sort through and since every situation is different, a lot of it doesn't apply to mine, even though I can learn important principals in the process.


We can help you get through this step by step by pointing you to the pertinent steps for your situation. It is not an easy process but the rewards are great..
Posted By: unwritten Re: any chance - 05/01/17 01:49 PM
Originally Posted By: anonymityplease
Yes, I've been working through some of Dr. Hartley's materials and like what I've seen. I agree with his values and perspectives. But there is a lot of material to sort through and since every situation is different, a lot of it doesn't apply to mine, even though I can learn important principals in the process.


Welcome to MB.

Actually, every situation is not different, and his materials all do apply to you. You might not be able to see that now, but it is true.

Dr Harley has brilliantly discovered the key to making a marriage successful, and maintaining romantic love throughout your marriage. The process on how to do this is the same for every couple, regardless of their situation.

Tell us which pieces of his program do not apply to your situation, and why you believe that?

What are your wife's complaints about you? What have you been doing to entice her back into the marriage?
Posted By: anonymityplease Re: any chance - 05/01/17 01:59 PM
I'm hesitant to say too much on this forum for fear of exposing myself or my wife. And I realize, once any of this is exposed, we can't unexpose it. So I'm very cautious about saying too much here on this forum and I haven't shared any of this with any close friend, co-worker, or family member. I looked at some of what MelodyLane posts about Exposure, but wow, that seems like the nuclear option right now.

My ultimate wish is for my wife to realize I'm a decent guy who loves her and I want us to have the good marriage we used to have, the one I neglected, and for us to move on. But that is a fleeting wish right now.
Posted By: armymama Re: any chance - 05/01/17 02:09 PM
This forum takes great care to preserve anonymity. I have seen moderators delete identifying information and/or posts. You don't and shouldn't need to post information that identifies you and your wife.

Marriage Builders has a plan to follow to recover a marriage after an affair. As already described, the steps are very specific.

"Wishing" for your wife to realize her mistakes will not make it happen. Having a plan and executing the plan is the path to marriage recovery.

I see you use the words fear and afraid several times. You can not steer recovery if you let your fears determine your actions/inactions.

Can you answer Unwritten's question about which parts of the program you believe do not apply to your situation? Also, Mel's question, "Is your wife still in contact with OM?"
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: any chance - 05/01/17 02:10 PM
Originally Posted By: anonymityplease


My ultimate wish is for my wife to realize I'm a decent guy who loves her and I want us to have the good marriage we used to have, the one I neglected, and for us to move on. But that is a fleeting wish right now.


But that will not happen if her lovebank is closed to you. If she is still seeing or communicating with the OM, her lovebank will never be open to you and you will never move forward. Never. Nothing we tell you to do will ever be of effect as long as she has any contact whatsoever with the OM.

The longer the affair stays hidden the more entrenched and the harder it will be to save your marriage.

Does she still see or communicate with the OM?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: any chance - 05/01/17 02:15 PM
Originally Posted By: anonymityplease


My ultimate wish is for my wife to realize I'm a decent guy who loves her and I want us to have the good marriage we used to have, the one I neglected, and for us to move on. But that is a fleeting wish right now.


It comes down to this simple question: do you want to save your marriage or do you want to continue to take the path of least resistance while the Titanic sinks? Those of us who saved our marriages did not do it by avoiding conflict and sitting on the sidelines "hoping" for the best. Hope is not a plan.
Posted By: markos Re: any chance - 05/01/17 02:16 PM
Originally Posted By: anonymityplease
I'm aching to talk to someone about all of this (when I'm not on a ticking clock having to pay)... but OTOH, I don't want to say anything to any friend or family because I'm afraid it will make the situation worse. I really want to move on from this to a happy marriage, and I'm afraid if anyone knows it will shame her and jeopardize any future we might have together.


Oh goodness, you shouldn't have to go through that - Dr. Harley really is serious that in his experience the marriages where the betrayed spouse exposes the affair are more likely to recover. By exposing the affair you're not going to make the situation worse - you are going to get the support you need and also make it more likely that you come out of this unscathed.

All kinds of family and friends know that my wife had an online affair several years ago. They do not shame her, and we have a great life together.
Posted By: markos Re: any chance - 05/01/17 02:18 PM
Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
Originally Posted By: anonymityplease
Yes, I've been working through some of Dr. Hartley's materials and like what I've seen. I agree with his values and perspectives. But there is a lot of material to sort through and since every situation is different, a lot of it doesn't apply to mine, even though I can learn important principals in the process.


We can help you get through this step by step by pointing you to the pertinent steps for your situation. It is not an easy process but the rewards are great..


Please notice how long MelodyLane has been here and how many posts she has made on this site.

Know also that she has listened to hundreds (thousands?) of hours of Dr. Harley's Marriage Builders Radio. She is well educated in hundreds of different marital scenarios and what works and what doesn't.

She is your best bet to finding your way out of this to a happy future.

90% of the people who post here say "my situation is different" (think about how silly that is). Then they ignore the suggestions and end up in disaster.
Posted By: markos Re: any chance - 05/01/17 02:20 PM
Originally Posted By: anonymityplease
So I'm very cautious about saying too much here on this forum and I haven't shared any of this with any close friend, co-worker, or family member.


Suffering in silence isn't a very good plan!
Posted By: anonymityplease Re: any chance - 05/01/17 04:23 PM
Many thanks for the many replies.

To unwritten:

(1) RE: Every situation is different.
What I meant is that when affairs happen, there are many different factors at play: newlyweds vs married 20+ years; kids vs no kids; other prior affairs vs none; alcohol in the picture vs no alcohol; abusive situation vs no abuse. FWIW, my wife & I have been married 20+ years, 3 kids that are late teens; no prior affairs. But another major factor is that I'm in Christian ministry as a vocation. There are some in my situation who might demand I be fired even if I have biblical grounds for divorcing my wife due to the affair. That makes this all the more complicated.

(2) RE: Which Dr Hartley materials.
I've read some of the things and it was addressing situations that are not like my situation. Maybe if you could tell me which of his materials apply to my situation, then I could start there.


To armymama:

(3) Yes, I need a plan to execute. Not a wish or fleeting hopes. Which materials of Dr Hartley's do you recommend that I read and consider first for my situation?


To MelodyLane:

(4) Yes, her lovebank is currently closed to me. Completely. No, I have no reason to think she is still communicating with the other man. It was a fling. A lot of sexting. Only met him 2x. She never thought it would hurt me if I didn't know (although I noticed that the affair changed her, even before I knew about the affair). This was not the kind of man she would ever marry or have a serious relationship with.

I have no reason to think she is now continuing to contact him.
Part of the reason is because I ended it for them. When I first discovered the affair, I was afraid to expose it because we had a big family trip (a week for all 5 of us in Australia) coming up in 5 weeks. I didn't want to ruin everything for this trip for the kids, but I also didn't want the affair to continue. So without her knowing that I knew, I kept asking her not to do anything "destructive" towards our marriage. She didn't take the hints to think about what she was doing. She tried to meet up with the OM several times but their schedules didn't allow.

They were about to meet up before the big family trip and I did something quite risky to prevent it. I texted him from her phone without her knowing. I stated:

"This is xxx's husband. We've been married 20+ years and have 3 kids together. She probably didn't tell you she was married, or maybe she did. I know who you are. I know all about you from social media. I've read your texts. I know you're fooling around with my wife. I advise you to never contact her again. Ever. It's over."

And I sent it. And I deleted the text on my wife's phone so she didn't know. Then I added his number to her spam list so any return message was blocked as spam. Then I changed his contact number in her phone to a different # so any text she sent went to a slightly different number. So yeah, I temporarily interrupted contact between them as a stop-gap measure to avoid the affair going further before our big family trip. And my plan was to expose it all to her the day after we all got home.

It worked, until we were overseas and the OM realized what had happened and he texted her from his work phone and sent a pic of my text. And I saw this contact from the same city on our phone records and knew this had probably happened. Day after we got home, I drove us to a local park (away from the kids) and we sat in the car for 2 hours and talked about it all.

I have no reason to think she has contacted that man any since that trip. It sounds like he was pretty ticked at her for not being honest with him. So it does sound like it's over.


To markos:

(5) I'm in Christian ministry. Exposing this could have disastrous effects beyond my marriage. So I'm very hesitant to make a wrong decision about exposing this. (See #1 above) I'm not a hypocrite and don't act like I'm perfect or my marriage is perfect, but I also know that my wife & I are held to a higher standard than others. So yes, in many ways, my situation is different. And this is much the reason I feel trapped with no one I can share this with.
Posted By: markos Re: any chance - 05/01/17 04:41 PM
anon,

My wife and I are increasingly involved in Christian marriage ministry using Dr. Harley's materials - as a part of that ministry we tell our full marital history including her affair and my abuse.

People with good marriages aren't the ones who conceal things like this. We need more ministers like you to do the things that lead to good marriages.

As far as Dr. Harley's materials, do you have the book Surviving an Affair? And have you seen his free video about infidelity on this site? And do you have the Marriage Builders app for your phone so you can listen to the free Marriage Builders Radio show?
Posted By: markos Re: any chance - 05/01/17 04:42 PM
The way you confronted the OM is great! That probably impressed your wife that you were willing to fight for her.
Posted By: unwritten Re: any chance - 05/01/17 04:42 PM
I know what you meant by every situation is different. Most of us who have posted here for years have seen every situation imaginable. The main principles of Dr Harley's plan still apply to all of them.

In your situation, there is nothing that would lead us to tell you not to expose. In fact, I think it is one of the only chances you have. When a person is engaged in an affair, they are in an 'affair fog' mentally. The addiction of the affair takes over their mental state, they can no longer think rationally. Exposure works to wake them up from the fog. It also garners support for you, and support for your marriage as you try to rebuild, and keeps WW accountable making continuing the affair next to impossible.

I think it is very sad that as a Christian minister you think you have to pretend your life is better than it is and NOT ask for help from your Christian family. To me that is not holding yourself to a higher standard, but the opposite.
Posted By: unwritten Re: any chance - 05/01/17 04:44 PM
I agree with Markos that the world needs more people in ministry who are 'real' and willing to talk about how sin impacts their life.

I know as a parishioner I would have a great deal of respect for this in a minister.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: any chance - 05/01/17 04:44 PM
Originally Posted By: anonymityplease
Many thanks for the many replies.

To unwritten:

(1) RE: Every situation is different.
What I meant is that when affairs happen, there are many different factors at play: newlyweds vs married 20+ years; kids vs no kids; other prior affairs vs none; alcohol in the picture vs no alcohol; abusive situation vs no abuse. FWIW, my wife & I have been married 20+ years, 3 kids that are late teens; no prior affairs. But another major factor is that I'm in Christian ministry as a vocation. There are some in my situation who might demand I be fired even if I have biblical grounds for divorcing my wife due to the affair. That makes this all the more complicated.


anon, please be assured that 99% of affairs are all alike. Marriages may have different mitigating factors, but affairs are the same and the solution is the same. Your situation is not complicated at all. You are headed to divorce full steam now. Our goal is to save your marriage and stop your enabling actions that are leading to that outcome.

Yours is a garden variety affair that we see every day on this forum.

Quote:
To armymama:

(3) Yes, I need a plan to execute. Not a wish or fleeting hopes. Which materials of Dr Hartley's do you recommend that I read and consider first for my situation?


The plan would be Plan A. This would start with exposure. You must first bring the affair out into the open. Nothing that we tell you to do can overcome your enabling. Affairs thrive on secrecy, so keeping it a secret only serves to enable it. All of your efforts will fail until you kill the affair. Exposure 101

Where did she meet this OM? Does he live/work close by? Do you live in a small community where she would run into him?


Quote:


(4) Yes, her lovebank is currently closed to me. Completely. No, I have no reason to think she is still communicating with the other man. It was a fling. A lot of sexting. Only met him 2x. She never thought it would hurt me if I didn't know (although I noticed that the affair changed her, even before I knew about the affair). This was not the kind of man she would ever marry or have a serious relationship with.

I have no reason to think she is now continuing to contact him.


My suggestion would be to do some super snooping. When an affair partner is threatened, as you did, they typically go further underground. This is why making threats in the absence of exposure is not recommended. It is very ineffective because it is like giving your battle plan to the enemy. They both know how you detected their affair, so it would be so easy to find other ways to communicate.

Is this OM married? Do you know?

Quote:

(5) I'm in Christian ministry. Exposing this could have disastrous effects beyond my marriage. So I'm very hesitant to make a wrong decision about exposing this. (See #1 above) I'm not a hypocrite and don't act like I'm perfect or my marriage is perfect, but I also know that my wife & I are held to a higher standard than others. So yes, in many ways, my situation is different. And this is much the reason I feel trapped with no one I can share this with.


You don't help yourself or your marriage by keeping this a secret. An AFFAIR has disastrous effects on a marriage and secrecy only compounds that toxic effect, as you can see. Exposure is therapeutic. You are not holding to a "higher standard" by keeping this a secret, you are holding to a lower standard.

Originally Posted By: Dr Bill Harley
"Exposure is very likely to end the affair, lifting the fog that has overcome the unfaithful spouse, helping him or her become truly repentant and willing to put energy and effort into a full marital recovery. In my experience with thousands of couples who struggle with the fallout of infidelity, exposure has been the single most important first step toward recovery. It not only helps end the affair, but it also provides support to the betrayed spouse, giving him or her stamina to hold out for ultimate recovery."



Quote:
Originally Posted By: Dr Bill Harley
"The reason for the wide exposure is not to hurt the unfaithful spouse, but rather to end the fantasy. Your husband's secret second life made his affair possible, and the more you can to to make it public, the easier it is for him to see the damage he's doing. Keeping it secret does damage, but few know about it. Making it public helps everyone, including the unfaithful spouse and lover, see the affair for what it really is."
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: any chance - 05/01/17 04:50 PM
I wanted to emphasize Dr Harley's comments about the therapeutic benefits of exposure. He is a Christian theologian and clinical psychologist who has specialized in saving marriages from infidelity for 50 years.

Originally Posted By: Dr Bill Harley
"Exposure is very likely to end the affair,lifting the fog that has overcome the unfaithful spouse, helping him or her become truly repentant and willing to put energy and effort into a full marital recovery. In my experience with thousands of couples who struggle with the fallout of infidelity, exposure has been the single most important first step toward recovery. It not only helps end the affair,[size:20pt] but it also provides support to the betrayed spouse, giving him or her stamina to hold out for ultimate recovery."



Quote:
Originally Posted By: Dr Bill Harley
"The reason for the wide exposure is not to hurt the unfaithful spouse, but rather to end the fantasy. Your husband's secret second life made his affair possible, and the more you can to to make it public, the easier it is for him to see the damage he's doing. Keeping it secret does damage, but few know about it. Making it public helps everyone, including the unfaithful spouse and lover, see the affair for what it really is."
Posted By: markos Re: any chance - 05/01/17 05:00 PM
What does the Bible say to do about the fruitless works of darkness? The answer is in Ephesians 5:11

http://biblehub.com/ephesians/5-11.htm

MelodyLane taught me that, for what it's worth - she knows what she's talking about.
Posted By: markos Re: any chance - 05/01/17 05:01 PM
Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
You are headed to divorce full steam now. Our goal is to save your marriage and stop your enabling actions that are leading to that outcome.


How is divorce going to impact your ministry?
Posted By: anonymityplease Re: any chance - 05/01/17 05:25 PM
Many thanks again for the follow-up replies. Very grateful because I feel trapped right now.


To markos: thanks. I'll look at that Hartley book specifically.


To unwritten: thanks.

(6) "affair fog." Good way to put it. Yes, the affair really altered my wife's whole outlook on life and towards me. And I had expressed to her (before I discovered it) that I felt like she had changed and she denied it. And then when I discovered the affair, I could see in the weeks and weeks of texts how it matched up with exactly when I noticed her demeanor changing.

But now (as I already explained), the affair is over. So if I expose it further now, it feels like I'm digging up the past in a shameful hurtful kind of way towards her, not that I'm trying to prevent something that is current or ongoing.

I don't think she is trying to have another affair right now, but we're in limbo (as I explained on page 1). She doesn't want to decisively end our marriage and seek her own pursuits. Nor does she want to attempt to rebuild our marriage because she knows she just missed her best chance to have her own independent single life and seek her own pursuits.

(7) I have been quite open with my people in my ministry about my own sins, failures, and shortcomings. But I'm not comfortable at this moment of exposing those of my wife. I don't want to brand her publicly with the scarlet letter. I have always taken the approach to only say and post (on social media) positive things about my wife and kids. I think it would be ugly and out-of-place and hurtful to say or post any of their shortcomings about anything. They already live in a fish bowl more than any of them ever agreed to. But I am quite open about my own sins, failures, and shortcomings.


To MelodyLane: thanks.

(8) RE: Exposure 101.
I read your long post. That seems like the nuclear option in my situation. The affair is already over and in the past. So it feels like if I publicly expose this, it's hurtful and mean-spirited. I've take the approach that public sins should be confessed and exposed publicly. Private sins, privately. Personal sins, personally.

I must admit (and grantd, all of this is new to me... so please forgive me for still thinking through your advice critically), much of what you say in Exposure 101 almost sounds manipulative... publicly forcing her to do something against her will. I keep holding out hope that on her own she will realize the error of her ways and decide for herself to choose to love me. That's why I made the initial post here. Does that ever happen? Is there any chance that she might actually do this? Am I blinded by our past love and now myopic optimism and not in touch with reality with these hopes? (Again, please forgive me for thinking critically through what you are suggesting... I can't afford to make a bad choice with this... you can't really undo exposure.)

(9) Re: OM
She met him in another city 70 miles away. There is virtually no chance that she would accidentally come in contact with him again, unless she put herself intentionally in the position to do so. And now ever since I exposed the affair to her, when she has had to drive that direction, I noticed that she has avoided that whole area. And this used to be her absolute favorite place/city to visit (even before the affair ever started).

(10) Re: snooping.

That's why I asked on the other forum about how to search online dating websites. I would be surprised if she's actually doing that, but then again, almost nothing surprises me now.

Re: Christian ministry and exposure. See my remarks (#7) above.
Posted By: anonymityplease Re: any chance - 05/01/17 05:40 PM
To markos:

If you like the way I exposed the affair and texted the OM and then blocked contact between them, then you might appreciate this. On the way home from the airport after our big trip to Australia, our whole family was hungry after the long flight. I intentionally stopped at the restaurant in this other city far from home where my wife had met the OM. None of us except her had ever been there or stopped in this city. It was my subtle way of letting her know, I know what happened here.
Posted By: markos Re: any chance - 05/01/17 05:41 PM
Originally Posted By: anonymityplease
To markos:

If you like the way I exposed the affair and texted the OM and then blocked contact between them,


I thought you hadn't exposed the affair ... telling the OM about the affair is not exposure; he already knows he's having an affair.
Posted By: markos Re: any chance - 05/01/17 05:42 PM
Originally Posted By: anonymityplease
To markos:

If you like the way I exposed the affair and texted the OM and then blocked contact between them, then you might appreciate this. On the way home from the airport after our big trip to Australia, our whole family was hungry after the long flight. I intentionally stopped at the restaurant in this other city far from home where my wife had met the OM. None of us except her had ever been there or stopped in this city. It was my subtle way of letting her know, I know what happened here.


What I think is good is that you confronted the OM and told him to back off. That is usually a great idea and makes an impression with your wife.

Sending her a subtle message letting her know - not sure that's effective.
Posted By: markos Re: any chance - 05/01/17 05:43 PM
Originally Posted By: anonymityplease
So it feels like if I publicly expose this, it's hurtful and mean-spirited. I've take the approach that public sins should be confessed and exposed publicly. Private sins, privately. Personal sins, personally.


So your kids should be told, right?
Posted By: unwritten Re: any chance - 05/01/17 05:56 PM
Is the OM married?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: any chance - 05/01/17 05:59 PM
Originally Posted By: anonymityplease

To MelodyLane: thanks.

(8) RE: Exposure 101.
I read your long post. That seems like the nuclear option in my situation. The affair is already over and in the past. So it feels like if I publicly expose this, it's hurtful and mean-spirited. I've take the approach that public sins should be confessed and exposed publicly. Private sins, privately. Personal sins, personally.


I would not suggest being "hurtful" and "meanspirited" but being loving and therapeutic to your marriage and your wife's outlook. The fact that the affair is supposedly over [which you don't really know] does not change that. Exspoure is the first step towards recovery because it kills the fog that accompanies affairs and prevents a resumption. If the affair has truly ended, which you don't know, exposure will greatly help prevent a resumption.

Is the OM married?

Quote:
I must admit (and grantd, all of this is new to me... so please forgive me for still thinking through your advice critically), much of what you say in Exposure 101 almost sounds manipulative... publicly forcing her to do something against her will.


No, you can't force her to anything. Exposure is not "manipulating" but is simply exposing bad behavior and asking those around you to support your marriage.

This of it like this: An affair is an addiction much like heroin addiction. Is it manipulative to take steps to remove the heroin from your wife's life or is it what a loving a spouse would do? When marriages are restored using these principles, the wayward spouse often thanks her spouse for taking these steps because he/she recognizes the therapeutic effect.

Quote:
I keep holding out hope that on her own she will realize the error of her ways and decide for herself to choose to love me. That's why I made the initial post here. Does that ever happen?


No, that is an unrealistic hope.

Quote:
Is there any chance that she might actually do this? Am I blinded by our past love and now myopic optimism and not in touch with reality with these hopes? (Again, please forgive me for thinking critically through what you are suggesting... I can't afford to make a bad choice with this... you can't really undo exposure.)


I applaud you for asking questions, however, it does no good to ask questions if you are not open to the answers. Keep in mind that you are the least objective person on this thread.

I would not agree you have been thinking critically about this. You have been thinking EMOTIONALLY as evidenced by the frequent use of the word "FEAR" in your posts. You are obviously paralyzed by fear, which is why your situation is not improving. Hope is not a plan; conflict avoidance only creates more conflict.

Quote:
(9) Re: OM
She met him in another city 70 miles away. There is virtually no chance that she would accidentally come in contact with him again, unless she put herself intentionally in the position to do so. And now ever since I exposed the affair to her, when she has had to drive that direction, I noticed that she has avoided that whole area. And this used to be her absolute favorite place/city to visit (even before the affair ever started).


You do know he can drive to your area, right? He is also free to contact your wife anytime because his spouse has not been informed.

Quote:
(10) Re: snooping.

That's why I asked on the other forum about how to search online dating websites. I would be surprised if she's actually doing that, but then again, almost nothing surprises me now.


A good way to find out is to put spyware on her phone, a VAR and a GPS on her car.

Quote:
(7) I have been quite open with my people in my ministry about my own sins, failures, and shortcomings. But I'm not comfortable at this moment of exposing those of my wife.


Our goal is not to make you "comfortable" but to save your marriage. Once again, exposure is the most effective first step towards recovery. Affairs thrive on secrecy, so keeping her secret only helps the affair or the fantasy thrive and grow. Since you have told them how you were snooping, finding a new way would be simple, such as an affair phone, etc.
Posted By: unwritten Re: any chance - 05/01/17 06:02 PM
The problem with the affair fog, is that it doesn't lift until no contact with the affair partner occurs. Many people come here and say the affair is over, but the fog behavior continues...usually this is because the affair is NOT over and has just gone further underground, or there is some other kind of casual contact that makes the affair fog continue.

Unless you have snooping methods in place to confirm, you don't know the affair is over. And even if she has OM on facebook or other social media, or is still hearing about him from mutual friends....ANY contact will keep her mind in that perpetual state of affair fog and will prohibit you from recovering. Again, if you don't have any snooping methods in place, you won't be able to confirm this.
Posted By: markos Re: any chance - 05/01/17 06:02 PM
Exposure is not vindictive toward your wife - exposure is an intervention designed to save your wife from this affair, a repeat affair, and ultimately from a bad marriage - exposure is the beginning of a new life.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: any chance - 05/01/17 06:07 PM
I want to add another important point. At my job, when my director asks me how I intend to achieve a specific goal, I can't tell him my plan is to "hope." I have to produce a step by step plan that is likely to lead to the desired outcome.

Marriage is the same. Not having a plan is a plan to fail. As you can see, your plan has not worked.

Most of us posting to you have experienced infidelity in our marriages and are in fully recovered marriages today. We didn't get here by doing nothing.
Posted By: unwritten Re: any chance - 05/01/17 06:13 PM
I also want to say that it seems your ministry and image come before your marriage. You have an opportunity to save your marriage and keep your family together, but you don't want to take that step because it will tarnish your image. You will have a great image all the way to divorce court...

If you say that it is about protecting your wife's image, you are not really in control of her image and reputation. Any damage done to her reputation is done by having an affair, not by you telling the truth about your life. Do you see that distinction? Her image and reputation is based on her behavior, not you telling friends and family you need help.
Posted By: unwritten Re: any chance - 05/01/17 06:18 PM
You said in your first post that she disengaged from you 2 years ago, but you just discovered she had an affair a few months ago. That makes me suspect this affair was going on for far longer, or there was another one prior to this. The timelines don't add up as she was exhibiting affair behavior long before this current affair.

How did you discover this current affair? What spyware do you have in place?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: any chance - 05/01/17 06:48 PM
p.s. we have many couples from this forum who survived affairs who are active in the ministry. They teach Marriage Builders classes and are role models for other couples in their churches who are experiencing marriage problems. They are great assets to their churches because they effectively recovered their marriages. They have helped many people. That would never be the case if they had taken your route of secrecy and denial. One of those couples is posting to you on this thread, Markos.

You can be a great asset to your church if you don the shroud of secrecy and take open measures to save your marriage.
Posted By: anonymityplease Re: any chance - 05/01/17 06:50 PM
Thanks for the continued replies. Helpful advices, questions, and comments. This is all so new to me. It's hard for me to decide what to say or do because I don't know these kinds of situations well enough to know what to expect as intentional or unintentional outcomes.


To markos:

(11) RE: Exposing the affair and the restaurant.
I was exposing to him that I knew about the affair. And I delayed exposing my knowledge of it to my wife until after the big overseas family trip. Going to that restaurant was to let my wife know I knew details, not that I just had suspicions. I knew the next morning was when I would confront her. And I did.

(12) RE: kids knowing of the affair.
I'm still trying to figure out if the kids should know about the affair. If we don't split up nor divorce, I doubt I would want the kids to know. If we do split up, I probably do want them to know otherwise they might think the divorce was all my fault.


To unwritten:
(13) The OM is not married. He evidently was and has a daughter from his first wife. He sounds like someone who enjoys "playing the field" so to speak.

(14) Yes, she declared her disengagement from me 2 years ago. And she gradually put up more and more walls. I can see from our texts 18 months ago when she would still express in minor ways some love and concern for me (heart smiley every once a while). Call me dense, but I honestly didn't realize 2 years ago that she was so determined to end it all. I honestly thought she would realize she had a good thing with me and not destroy it. But as the months rolled on, the distance between us became greater. Finally, in October we got to counseling (stupid mistake on my part not going sooner... but I foolishly thought I could fix our marriage ourselves).

After going to counseling, things got worse. As she expressed her disappointments and frustrations with me, it helped her build more walls. In the process of verbalizing it in counseling, she became more determined to distance herself.

I can track in our phone records exactly when the OM first contacted my wife. And I can see that he tried texting her 13 different times for 2.5 months and she never once responded... until in December, she texted him. Then there was a flurry of texts back and forth throughout January and February (over 900). The physical affair happened in mid-January, but they tried to hook up again in February and March but their schedules never allowed. Our big Australia trip was the end of March, and the day after is when I confronted her.

So I know exactly when, where, and how the affair started. I really have no reason to think there was any prior affair. I can trace the changes in my wife's demeanor and it chronicles exactly with the time stamps from the texts.



To MelodyLane:
I really appreciate you typing out long detailed responses. And I realize you have far more experience with this subject than I.

Please understand, I do respect what you're saying and I'm trying to think through the implications of your advice, because it still seems to me like the nuclear option and once I press that button, I can't undo any damage caused by publicly exposing this. So yes, I'm thinking through what you're saying... just hesitant to make an unretractable decision to do it at the moment.

(15) I am snooping on my wife in a way that she has no idea about. I can track the location of her phone so I know where she is at any time. And I can see the past history of it all. So yeah, I know when she was in that other city and where and everywhere she goes. How do I put spyware on her phone without her knowing? Or VAR? Is that illegal?

Due to our location, there is virtually no chance the OM will visit my wife in our city. And it sounds like he was ticked at her for putting him in a risky situation since he has no idea how I as the husband might react to him. He sounds like a playboy and that he has plenty of other women to pursue in his own area. They have zero mutual friends. Absolutely none, for sure, because I know how, where, & when they first met. And they have met in person only twice.

(16) RE: fears, hopes, wishes... and a plan
All of us have fears, hopes, and wishes. I'm simply try to express mine. No, I do not think any of those are a plan to execute. I'm doing everything possible to show my wife I love her and to wait for her to choose to love me. On the first page, some expressed hope that yes, spouses can turn around but the chances are narrow.

The plan in the back of my mind right now (and I'm still thinking through this), is to expose all of this to her parents when we visit them in June. They live in another state. They don't know of any of this. We will stay with them, and I would like to explain first to her father what all has happened, not just her affair, but also my failures that created a context for my wife to seek someone else. No, I do not think I am to blame for her poor choices, but I could have done a much better job with our marriage so that she would be less likely to seek someone else. I have a feeling that her father and her mother (who have a good marriage) will sit down with both of us and try to get us to work things out. (They did that to her brother in his marriage years ago.)
Posted By: markos Re: any chance - 05/01/17 06:51 PM
Have you installed the Marriage Builders app yet so you can listen to Dr. Harley himself? You can't really make it on your own. Trust me; I know from my own experience.
Posted By: markos Re: any chance - 05/01/17 06:53 PM
Originally Posted By: anonymityplease
(12) RE: kids knowing of the affair.
I'm still trying to figure out if the kids should know about the affair. If we don't split up nor divorce, I doubt I would want the kids to know. If we do split up, I probably do want them to know otherwise they might think the divorce was all my fault.


As a minister, do you intend to teach your children how to avoid infidelity?
Posted By: markos Re: any chance - 05/01/17 07:06 PM
Originally Posted By: anonymityplease
On the first page, some expressed hope that yes, spouses can turn around but the chances are narrow.


My whole point in expressing that is that if you don't follow the plan that actually works you will not be able to turn this around.

For the sake of your wife and children and church I'm begging you to listen to Dr. Harley's advice because he actually knows what works and what doesn't.

Have you listened to the show yet?
Posted By: unwritten Re: any chance - 05/01/17 07:10 PM
In addition to exposure, you should be in Plan A. Have you read about Plan A?

You have said multiple times you are doing everything you can to 'win your wife back' so to speak. What are you doing to accomplish this?
Posted By: unwritten Re: any chance - 05/01/17 07:13 PM
Originally Posted By: anonymityplease
Call me dense, but I honestly didn't realize 2 years ago that she was so determined to end it all.


If she was determined to end it all, she would have. The fact that she hasn't left yet, 2 full years later, means that you do have a chance to turn this around. But as ML stated, it will not happen with you being complacent and enabling. Even if she does end the affair and you stay married, if you don't do do this the right way, you will not recover your marriage. You are seeing right now that despite your best efforts, and seemingly years of ineffective counseling, you are worse off than you were 2 years ago.
Posted By: anonymityplease Re: any chance - 05/01/17 08:40 PM
To markos:

I need to get the app. And read that specific book by Hartley you mentioned.

Yes, teaching my kids about faithfulness is very important to me. Our daughter is in a serious relationship with a fine young man. Very happy for the two of them. He's from a good family with parents that have a healthy relationship. And they both have good values and a good relationship.

To which specific show of Dr. Hartley's are you referring?


To unwritten:
No, I haven't read Plan A yet.

Re: wife determined to end it all 2 years ago.

At that point 2 years ago, she made some decisive changes to shun me and pursue her own interests apart from me. The main reason she didn't end it all then was probably because we still had 2 kids living at home. They will be both be gone from the house to college at the beginning of September. So then there will be less reason in her mind for us to stay together.

The main thing that is ending our marriage was not her affair. That simply made it worse, and why I tried everything to thwart the affair from going further. She had gotten frustrated with me and had enough of me.

Long story short. One of the main reasons was the two different ways we approached disciplining one of our kids who is offtrack with his life. I'm more strict, confrontational, disciplinary, tough love. She doesn't like that at all, and she's more hands-off and hugs and kisses.

But there are other issues that put us at odds with each other. We're both very opposite in personality types (Myers-Briggs) and what we emphasize and find important in decision-making, etc. All of this piled up far more than I ever realized. Since my wife is not confrontational, she suppressed a lot of her hurt feelings over the years that I never knew she had. It's all like a beach ball that can no longer be kept under water. And it's all popped up to the surface and so much of it I never knew. I never realized how much she had been hurt through the years and I hate it and it's my biggest regret in life and most certainly the main reason she's turned to other things and other people to have her needs met. And it's not merely her fault for suppressing it... I wasn't a good listener. I thought I was, but I now understand that I really wasn't. (I would anticipate what she was saying and interpret her words in ways that she wasn't saying... but I didn't even realize that I was doing that.) I now understand much better what she was thinking and feeling that I never realized. And she's not willing to give me another chance. She doesn't think "new me 2.0" is really any different than "old me 1.0"... but she's also not willing to try and see.

So yeah, the affair happened, but we had serious problems before it and still after. But the affair takes our problems to a whole new level of difficulty to overcome.
Posted By: markos Re: any chance - 05/01/17 08:59 PM
Originally Posted By: anonymityplease
To markos:

I need to get the app. And read that specific book by Hartley you mentioned.

Yes, teaching my kids about faithfulness is very important to me. Our daughter is in a serious relationship with a fine young man. Very happy for the two of them. He's from a good family with parents that have a healthy relationship. And they both have good values and a good relationship.

To which specific show of Dr. Hartley's are you referring?


I am referring to the Marriage Builders Radio show by Dr. Harley (not Hartley - that's Bob Newhart). I encourage you to install it immediately and start listening because you are going to need a lot of expert help.
Posted By: markos Re: any chance - 05/01/17 08:59 PM
So after posting that you didn't have the app yet, did you go install it? Have you listened?
Posted By: anonymityplease Re: any chance - 05/01/17 09:35 PM
To markos:

I have the app now. But I can only pull up 1 program from Jan 30. I tried logging in, but that's still all I get.
Posted By: anonymityplease Re: any chance - 05/01/17 10:07 PM
Where is this book called "Plan A"? I don't see it in the bookstore or catalog.
Posted By: SusieQ Re: any chance - 05/01/17 10:25 PM
Rookie mistake to think because after confrontation that the affair is "over" because the affairees aren't texting each other any more.

All that happened was that they are communicating in a new way (taken the affair underground) that you don't have access to (burner phone, secret email account, etc). That's why we NEVER advise confrontation without exposure. It only backfires on you.

Posted By: MelodyLane Re: any chance - 05/01/17 10:26 PM
Originally Posted By: anonymityplease


(12) RE: kids knowing of the affair.
I'm still trying to figure out if the kids should know about the affair. If we don't split up nor divorce, I doubt I would want the kids to know. If we do split up, I probably do want them to know otherwise they might think the divorce was all my fault.



Yes, of course they would want to know. They need to know regardless of whether your marriage makes it not. Lying to your children about the source of tension in your marriage just teaches them that dishonesty is sometimes acceptable. Your kids know something is wrong, and not telling them is confusing and harmful to them. Children are not made happy or secure by believing illusions.

Read Dr. Harley's comments about exposure to children on the Exposure 101 thread in my link.


Quote:
To unwritten:
(13) The OM is not married. He evidently was and has a daughter from his first wife. He sounds like someone who enjoys "playing the field" so to speak.


Do you know this for a fact? Or is this what you have been told?

Quote:
(14) Yes, she declared her disengagement from me 2 years ago. And she gradually put up more and more walls. I can see from our texts 18 months ago when she would still express in minor ways some love and concern for me (heart smiley every once a while). Call me dense, but I honestly didn't realize 2 years ago that she was so determined to end it all. I honestly thought she would realize she had a good thing with me and not destroy it. But as the months rolled on, the distance between us became greater. Finally, in October we got to counseling (stupid mistake on my part not going sooner... but I foolishly thought I could fix our marriage ourselves).[quote]

I am sorry to see you are wasting your time in marriage counseling now. It is a needless distraction from your marriage problems. As you can see, it has helped nothing. Counseling is very desrtructive to marriages in crisis and almost every saved marriage on this forum can attest to this. Marriage counselor's have a higher personal divorce rate than the general population.

[quote]After going to counseling, things got worse. As she expressed her disappointments and frustrations with me, it helped her build more walls. In the process of verbalizing it in counseling, she became more determined to distance herself.


Typical marriage counseling causes more harm than good, because they are little more [censored] sessions where the couple leave more angry than before they went in. This is why Dr. Harley does not use this approach.


Quote:
Please understand, I do respect what you're saying and I'm trying to think through the implications of your advice, because it still seems to me like the nuclear option and once I press that button, I can't undo any damage caused by publicly exposing this. So yes, I'm thinking through what you're saying... just hesitant to make an unretractable decision to do it at the moment.


Thanks for thinking it through. Keep in mind, though, that I am not asking you to {"damage" your marriage. That is a false paradigm. You are still in the mindset that making your wife angry = bad. I am asking you to question the validity of your opinion that exposure is "damage." It is not damaging, it is therapeutic.

You are talking to many people whose marriages were saved due to exposure. You have read the Dr Harley, clinical psychologist and author of Surviving an Affair, opinion that "exposure is the most important first step towards recovery." Can it save every marriage? No. But it gives your marriage the best chance possible.

Quote:
(15) I am snooping on my wife in a way that she has no idea about. I can track the location of her phone so I know where she is at any time. And I can see the past history of it all. So yeah, I know when she was in that other city and where and everywhere she goes. How do I put spyware on her phone without her knowing? Or VAR? Is that illegal?


But she knew you were tracking her before and can easily leave her phone somewhere. You can place spyware on her phone without her knowing. It is suggested that you place a VAR under the drivers seat in her car.

Quote:
Due to our location, there is virtually no chance the OM will visit my wife in our city.


But you don't know that. Our goal is to help you make decisions based on facts.

Does she invite the OM to come to your home when you are gone? Is she home during the day? .

Quote:
(16) RE: fears, hopes, wishes... and a plan
All of us have fears, hopes, and wishes. I'm simply try to express mine. No, I do not think any of those are a plan to execute. I'm doing everything possible to show my wife I love her and to wait for her to choose to love me. On the first page, some expressed hope that yes, spouses can turn around but the chances are narrow.


The person on the first page said spouses can turn it around IF THEY FOLLOW THIS PLAN. If you won't follow this plan, there is no hope. The path is very narrow, IF YOU FOLLOW THIS PLAN.

We all had FEAR, but the difference between those who make it and those that dont is the ability to act despite the fear. By allowing your fear to dictate your actions, you can't win.

Quote:
The plan in the back of my mind right now (and I'm still thinking through this), is to expose all of this to her parents when we visit them in June. They live in another state. They don't know of any of this. We will stay with them, and I would like to explain first to her father what all has happened, not just her affair, but also my failures that created a context for my wife to seek someone else.


This is a waste of time. And a clear plan of conflict avoidance. You can't save a marriage in crisis by avoiding the conflict.

If you are serious about savig your marriage, you must put aside your own failed ideas and take objective advice. Your own best thinking has led you to make many strategic mistakes. We can't help you if won't put those aside.
Posted By: SusieQ Re: any chance - 05/01/17 10:28 PM
Originally Posted By: anonymityplease
Well, she did really neither. She wants space, freedom, and independence from me and the kids, but she's also not willing to end our marriage. She's very indecisive. And yet, she will not do anything that could be seen as a positive step for rebuilding our relationship.


Of course. She's cake eating which is very NORMAL for a wayward spouse. She is getting some needs met by the OM (currently - and I assure you of this) and some needs met by you.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: any chance - 05/01/17 10:33 PM
Dr. Harley on telling the children:

Originally Posted By: Dr Bill Harley
The same can be said about telling children about an affair. My experience with the positive outcomes of hundreds of families where an affair has been exposed to children has led me to encourage a betrayed spouse not to fear such exposure. In fact, to mislead children, giving other false explanations as to why their parents are not getting along, causes children to be very confused. When they finally discover the truth, it sets an example to children that dishonesty is sometimes acceptable, making them the judge of when that might occur.

An affair is an attack on children as well as the betrayed spouse. And it's true that children are deeply affected by this form of irresponsible behavior. But it's the act of infidelity that causes children to suffer, not the exposure of it. Facts point us toward solutions. Illusion leads us astray. That's true for children as well as adults.
here

Originally Posted By: Dr Bill Harley
Q: So, you do suggest telling our 10 year old son? Is this more than he can handle? He never saw any real unhappiness as my husband and I had a very low conflict marriage. I have been protecting our son from this truth. He still has hope that his dad is going to come home.
___________________________________
A: As for your son, the truth will come out eventually, even if you get back together again. And your son won't be emotionally crippled if he hears the truth. It's lies and deception that cripple children. He should know that your husband is choosing his lover over his son's mother. It's a fact. He's willing to ruin a family unit all for what.

When I first started recommending openness about an affair, I wasn't sure what would happen. But I did it because I knew it was the right thing to do. Now I know that for most couples it marks the beginning of recovery.



Originally Posted By: Dr Bill Harley
The reason that children should know about an affair is that exposing it to the light of day (letting everyone know), helps give the unfaithful spouse a dose of reality. An affair thrives on illusion, and whatever a betrayed spouse can do to eliminate the illusion is justifiable. Mold doesn't grow well in sunlight.
here

Originally Posted By: Dr Bill Harley
Q. How honest should I be about the A? (they are 7 and under)

A. Tell your children as much as you can about their father's affair, and how it affects you. There are some counselors and lawyers that strongly disagree with me on this issue, but I have maintained that position for over 35 years without any evidence that children are hurt by it. They're hurt by the affair, not by accurate information regarding the affair. Just make sure that you don't combine accurate information with disrespectful judgments. For example, you can say that the OW has taken their father away from you, but you should not say that she is home-wrecker (or worse).
here

Originally Posted By: Dr Bill Harley
My basic approach to life is that radical honesty is valuable on many different dimensions. It keeps us out of trouble, it helps others understand us, and it helps others avoid the same mistakes we have made. Letting your children know the details of your husband's affair would help them in all three areas.

The more your children know about your husband's affair, the more careful he will be to avoid them in the future.

The more your children know about his affair, the more they will understand what you are going through in your recovery (by the way, you are doing very well -- keep up the good work!).

Being radically honest about your husband's affair with your children would also help them avoid affairs themselves. How it happened and how could it have been prevented is a great object lesson for children. I learned that I was vulnerable for an affair when I learned about my grandfather's affairs. The extraordinary precautions I've taken were directly related to what I learned about him.

It's the approach I've always taken, and while it's difficult, especially for the WS, there's much more upside to it than downside.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: any chance - 05/01/17 10:38 PM
Originally Posted By: Dr Bill Harley,, clinical psychologist and founder of Marriage Builders
The plan I recommend for recovery after an affair is very specific. That's because I've found that even small deviations from that plan are usually disastrous. But when it's followed, it always works. The plan has two parts that must be implemented sequentially. The first part of the plan is for the unfaithful spouse to completely separate from the lover and eliminate the conditions that made the affair possible. The second part is for the couple to create a romantic relationship, using my Basic Concepts as a guide.

I'll describe these two parts to you in a little more detail.

The first step, complete separation from the lover and eliminating the conditions that made the affair possible, requires a complete understanding of the affair. All information regarding the affair must be revealed to the betrayed spouse, including the name of the lover, the conditions that made the affair possible (travel, internet, etc.), the details of what took place during the affair, all correspondence, and anything else that would shed light on the tragedy.

This information is important for two reasons: (1) it creates accountability and transparency, making it essentially impossible for the unfaithful spouse to continue the affair or begin a new one unnoticed, and (2) it creates trust for the betrayed spouse, providing evidence that the affair is over and a new one is unlikely to take its place. The nightmares you experience are likely to continue until you have the facts that
will lead to your assurance that your husband can be trusted.

An analysis of the wayward spouse's childhood or emotional state of mind in an effort to discover why he or she would have an affair is distracting and unnecessary. It takes precious time away from finding the real solutions. I know why people have affairs: We are all wired for it. Given certain conditions, we would all do it. Given other conditions, however, none of us would do it. So the goal of the first step is to discover the conditions that made the affair possible and eliminate them.

After the first step is completed, the second step is to create a romantic relationship between you and your husband using my 10 Basic Concepts here
as your guide. While your relationship may be improving, it won't lead to a romantic relationship because you are not being transparent toward each other. Unspoken issues in a marital relationship lead to a superficiality that ruins romance.

<snip unrelated>

Infidelity is not something that can be swept under the rug. While those who have affairs want to forget about it and move on, those who are betrayed must take very specific steps before they can fully recover. In your case, those steps have not been taken, and as a result, your fear persists. I will send you a complimentary copy of my book, "Surviving an Affair," if you send me your address. It will describe these two steps to you and provide you with a roadmap toward full recovery. But the path will require full disclosure of all details.

Best wishes,

Willard F. Harley, Jr.
here
Posted By: anonymityplease Re: any chance - 05/01/17 11:39 PM
I'm not sure why this whole thread has diverted to the subject of publicly exposing my wife for an affair that is over. It is over. I've checked up on it without her knowing or even suspecting. I could go on but it would beat a dead horse. We've talked through the circumstances and causes of the affair. It's over. The advice to publicly expose this is treating a symptom, not the main problem, and would currently be like throwing gas on a fire.

The main problem is what MelodyLane copied and pasted as Step 2 (beyond Step 1 of complete separation form the lover and eliminating the conditions that made the affair possible). Step 1 is done. I need Step 2... how to create (or re-create) a romantic relationship between my wife & me.

That's what I came on this forum asking. Is there a chance this can return?

Thanks.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: any chance - 05/02/17 12:24 AM
Originally Posted By: anonymityplease
I'm not sure why this whole thread has diverted to the subject of publicly exposing my wife for an affair that is over.


The reason why is because you asked this:

Quote:
Does anyone in this kind of situation ever come back around?
I'm really afraid my marriage is a lost cause, but I'm not willing to give up.
I keep fighting for our marriage in every possible way, but she does nothing recipricol.

Any chance or hope that someone like this might come back around?

I really hope, yes, there's hope.


You told us you wanted to save your marriage so we gave the best advice to achieve that objective. Thanks.

Posted By: MelodyLane Re: any chance - 05/02/17 12:28 AM
Originally Posted By: Dr Bill Harley, clinical psychologist and founder of Marriage Builders

What about exposure of an affair that took place years earlier and is now ended but recently revealed? I feel that the children, close relatives, close friends, and the lover's spouse should be informed. Granted, it's embarrassing to admit an affair, but publicly admitting failure is usually the first step toward redemption.

As you probably already know, I'm a strong advocate of honesty and openness in marriage. I call it transparency -- letting your spouse know everything about you, especially your faults. But should that level of openness carry into the public arena? I believe that it should in cases of extreme irresponsibility, and that certainly includes infidelity. When you have done something very hurtful to someone else, others should know about it. Such exposure helps prevent a recurrence of the offense. Your closest friends and relatives will be keeping an eye on you -- holding you accountable.


and

Originally Posted By: Dr Bill Harley
In my experience with thousands of couples who struggle with the fallout of infidelity, exposure has been the single most important first step toward recovery. It not only helps end the affair, but it also provides support to the betrayed spouse, giving him or her stamina to hold out for ultimate marital recovery.
here
Posted By: Prisca Re: any chance - 05/02/17 01:23 AM
Quote:
need Step 2... how to create (or re-create) a romantic relationship between my wife & me.

That's what I came on this forum asking. Is there a chance this can return?

If you don't expose, then very likely no.

Exposure is the first step. It is where healing starts. It gives you support you need, and it gives your wife accountability. Without it, there is very little hope for your marriage. IF you stay married (and you'll likely end up divorced), your marriage will limp along as an empty shell of what it was before the affair.
Posted By: markos Re: any chance - 05/02/17 01:57 AM
Originally Posted By: anonymityplease
To markos:

I have the app now. But I can only pull up 1 program from Jan 30. I tried logging in, but that's still all I get.


That's today's show. It's a repeat. Have you listened to it, yet?

Tomorrow there will be another show, probably a new one rather than a repeat. Either way it will be new to you. Be sure to listen.

Get the book Surviving an Affair by Dr. Willard Harley. It tells you all about Plan A. You can buy it as an ebook from Amazon and read through the whole thing tonight or tomorrow.

Then send Dr. Harley an email on his radio show at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com and see what he says about your situation. This is his website you are on - tell him we sent you.

Have you read the Basic Concepts section of the website? What parts of the website have you read? Have you watched Dr. Harley's video on infidelity in the videos section of the website?
Posted By: markos Re: any chance - 05/02/17 02:39 AM
Originally Posted By: SusieQ
Originally Posted By: anonymityplease
Well, she did really neither. She wants space, freedom, and independence from me and the kids, but she's also not willing to end our marriage. She's very indecisive. And yet, she will not do anything that could be seen as a positive step for rebuilding our relationship.


Of course. She's cake eating which is very NORMAL for a wayward spouse. She is getting some needs met by the OM (currently - and I assure you of this) and some needs met by you.


Later you're going to realize that this is correct.

If you address it soon enough there's a better chance of turning this around.
Posted By: anonymityplease Re: any chance - 05/02/17 03:34 AM
Thanks again for taking the time with all the responses.

The reason I question doing the nuclear option as MelodyLane explains in Exposure 101 is that ML is describing a situation in which a spouse *is* having an affair (quoting her signature line). This would have been great advice 2 months ago when I discovered it.

But now, my situation is that my wife *had* an affair. It ended. I ended it by confronting the OM in a text from her phone and confronting her in person with pics of all the text messages in which she was sexting and mentioned the hook-up in her own words. It ended. I have no reason to think it has gone underground. The OM was not happy with her. I ruined it for them.

I do agree the reason a WS seeks another person is that they feel they're not getting their needs met in their marriage. And my wife is still in that position. In fact, she does not want me to even try to meet her needs. She's told me that. So even though she is not currently in an affair, she is not getting her needs met in our marriage. I'm fighting for our marriage, but she is doing nothing in return. I think she is waiting for our son to leave for college in September, and then she'll move out.

That's why I'm asking for advice. I think it may be best to serve her divorce papers sooner than September. She cheated on me. She has shown no interest in having her needs met in our marriage (before or after the affair). I feel like I'm fooling myself to think she's going to come to her senses and decide not to throw away our marriage. It's a lost cause unless she decides to rebuild our marriage. I'm willing to do so, but it takes two to rebuild a marriage, not just one. And she has given no hint that she's interested.
Posted By: markos Re: any chance - 05/02/17 03:42 AM
Have you listened to the Marriage Builders Radio show, yet?
Posted By: markos Re: any chance - 05/02/17 03:44 AM
Originally Posted By: anonymityplease
I think it may be best to serve her divorce papers sooner than September. She cheated on me. She has shown no interest in having her needs met in our marriage (before or after the affair). I feel like I'm fooling myself to think she's going to come to her senses and decide not to throw away our marriage. It's a lost cause unless she decides to rebuild our marriage. I'm willing to do so, but it takes two to rebuild a marriage, not just one. And she has given no hint that she's interested.


Serving divorce papers isn't going to motivate her to save your marriage.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: any chance - 05/02/17 04:11 AM
Originally Posted By: anonymityplease
Thanks again for taking the time with all the responses.

The reason I question doing the nuclear option as MelodyLane explains in Exposure 101 is that ML is describing a situation in which a spouse *is* having an affair (quoting her signature line). This would have been great advice 2 months ago when I discovered it.


No, it is applicable now as indicated by the quotes I posted. Please read my posts. Exposure applies to affairs that have ended as stated in Dr. Harley's quote. [did you read my posts? I addressed this] I am not recommending a "nuclear option," but standard exposure.

Quote:
That's why I'm asking for advice. I think it may be best to serve her divorce papers sooner than September. She cheated on me. She has shown no interest in having her needs met in our marriage (before or after the affair). I feel like I'm fooling myself to think she's going to come to her senses and decide not to throw away our marriage. It's a lost cause unless she decides to rebuild our marriage. I'm willing to do so, but it takes two to rebuild a marriage, not just one. And she has given no hint that she's interested.


You are fooling yourself by imagining she will come to her senses. And yes it is a lost cause unless you expose the affair. You are headed to divorce, but you might be able to pull this out. I would try other things first.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: any chance - 05/02/17 04:14 AM
Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
Originally Posted By: Dr Bill Harley, clinical psychologist and founder of Marriage Builders

What about exposure of an affair that took place years earlier and is now ended but recently revealed? I feel that the children, close relatives, close friends, and the lover's spouse should be informed. Granted, it's embarrassing to admit an affair, but publicly admitting failure is usually the first step toward redemption.

As you probably already know, I'm a strong advocate of honesty and openness in marriage. I call it transparency -- letting your spouse know everything about you, especially your faults. But should that level of openness carry into the public arena? I believe that it should in cases of extreme irresponsibility, and that certainly includes infidelity. When you have done something very hurtful to someone else, others should know about it. Such exposure helps prevent a recurrence of the offense. Your closest friends and relatives will be keeping an eye on you -- holding you accountable.


and

Originally Posted By: Dr Bill Harley
In my experience with thousands of couples who struggle with the fallout of infidelity, exposure has been the single most important first step toward recovery. It not only helps end the affair, but it also provides support to the betrayed spouse, giving him or her stamina to hold out for ultimate marital recovery.
here
Posted By: abrrba Re: any chance - 05/02/17 04:21 AM
Originally Posted By: anonymityplease
But now, my situation is that my wife *had* an affair. It ended. I ended it by confronting the OM in a text from her phone and confronting her in person with pics of all the text messages in which she was sexting and mentioned the hook-up in her own words. It ended. I have no reason to think it has gone underground. The OM was not happy with her. I ruined it for them.


Please listen to the experienced folks giving you great advice, like MelodyLane, markos, and others. I understand why you felt the need to confront OM & WW, it's a natural reaction. But even using your surveillance techniques, the A may still be in progress, because once you confronted them, they took the A further underground.

After I discovered my WW was in what I thought to be an EA (she claimed it was only a friendship), my WW swore that should would stop texting and talking to the OM (a coworker). I wanted to believe her but her behavior changes continued, and actually got a bit worse, so I was suspicious. It took me 3 weeks of investigating before I discovered the truth, that it was both an EA & PA and that the A was ongoing. Even with the methods you have been using, you may need to be more creative to discover the truth. Is this a workplace affair? If so, most of the time the A is conducted in the workplace itself. Don't think they can't find a way to do that.

Please don't think that because WW or OM have told you they will stop, that they will actually stop. One or both of them are in an addiction, and without exposure, sending a NC letter, and other precautions, they will continue to conduct their affair underground and out of sight.

I was unaware of Marriage Builders when I discovered the EA, so I mistakenly confronted WW immediately, and she hid the A more effectively. Had I known about MB and why exposure is the single most effective tool to kill affairs and recover marriages, I would have not even attempted to find more proof (I had originally discovered hundreds of texts being sent per month, though not the content), I would have exposed.

Yes, exposure is a scary notion. But your marriage might survive your WW's anger at exposure, but it will not survive on ongoing affair. Please listen to Dr. Harley's advice. Please listen to MelodyLane and others who have experience with thousands of marriages. You can choose to try your own plan, but read some of the threads in this forum. When a betrayed spouse avoids the tried & true methods advised here, it only gets worse.

Reading your first post, your situation has many similarities to mine. Also married 20+ years, three teenagers, a wife who has been been getting more & more distant the last 2 years, and many of the some complaints that your WW describes. Don't shoulder all the blame for the M yourself, it is a normal reaction for betrayed spouses. Yes, you are partly to blame for the state of the M, but so is your wife. These may be contributing *reasons* for the A, but they are NOT an excuse. She *chose* to go outside of the M, not you.
Posted By: anonymityplease Re: any chance - 05/02/17 05:16 AM
I understand why everyone says to expose an ongoing affair. I completely understand that and agree with it.

But in my situation since the affair is over, I would feel foolish to suddenly announce publicly to our families, to our friends, to our church, to everyone: "My wife had an affair 2 months ago. It's over, but I just want everyone to know what she did." How is that therapeutic?

The main problem with our marriage is still the same now as it was before the affair, she is done with me and does not want me to meet her needs. To quote her, "I want a buddy, not a husband." In other words, she doesn't mind if I go biking or hiking with her, but she doesn't want to share a normal married relationship with me.

I've tolerated this for 2 years now only because I know it was my depression and grumpiness while depressed that drove her to reject me. And I hate that I was ever that way and I want to show her I'm not that way. But she seems completely unimpressed. And it's not an act that I'm putting on. Trying to save our marriage and impress her with my love is what dug me out of depression in every area of my life (work, ministry, kids, etc). Depression (for me at least) was wallowing in self-absorbed self-pity. I realized I was about to lose the best thing that ever happened to me, and trying to win her back was what got me out of that depression.
Posted By: living_well Re: any chance - 05/02/17 10:18 AM
Originally Posted By: anonymityplease
I understand why everyone says to expose an ongoing affair. I completely understand that and agree with it.

But in my situation since the affair is over, I would feel foolish to suddenly announce publicly to our families, to our friends, to our church, to everyone: "My wife had an affair 2 months ago. It's over, but I just want everyone to know what she did." How is that therapeutic?


When I found Marriage Builders my (now ex) husband had already dumped the OW months earlier. At that time exposure was recommended for on-going affairs so I did not expose other than to my children and immediate family. I still regret that decision 10 years later.

1. The OW reappeared months later (they always do). So there was a second round of discovery. Sadly my teenage son had to witness that.

2. XH was able to spin his version of the divorce and told family and friends that I 'abandoned the family'.

3. Had we found a way to avoid divorce, he would have inevitably had another affair because there were no negative consequences to his behaviour.

Originally Posted By: anonymityplease
The main problem with our marriage is still the same now as it was before the affair, she is done with me and does not want me to meet her needs. To quote her, "I want a buddy, not a husband." In other words, she doesn't mind if I go biking or hiking with her, but she doesn't want to share a normal married relationship with me.


The fact that your wife is behaving like this strongly indicates that the affair is not over. This is not the normal behaviour of a wife in a situation where her husband is trying to win her back. Active conflict yes, passive rejection no. You need to be Sherlock Holmes my friend.
Posted By: anonymityplease Re: any chance - 05/02/17 11:34 AM
To living_well:

I'm not sure which you mean by your opening paragraph. You regret that you exposed the past affair to your children and family? Or you regret that you didn't expose the past affair further to more people and more publicly?

When the affair reappeared months later, did you publicly expose the affair to everyone at that point? If not, why not? If so, why did it not work well? The affair would have been current and ongoing at that point.

My apologies for not fully understanding what you're trying to say. Your situation sounds more similar to mine at this point. Thanks.
Posted By: Messy Re: any chance - 05/02/17 11:41 AM
Originally Posted By: anonymityplease

The main problem with our marriage is still the same now as it was before the affair, she is done with me and does not want me to meet her needs. To quote her, "I want a buddy, not a husband." In other words, she doesn't mind if I go biking or hiking with her, but she doesn't want to share a normal married relationship with me.


You need to accept the fact that the A is still going on, you may not have caught them yet, but your WW is still in love with OM, exposure gives that fantasy world a strong dose of reality.

Like arrba posted, I too had a very similar situation and mine played out exactly like the folks here say it ALWAYS does. Before I found MB, I confronted WW with the affair, and confronted OM and told him to stay away (thinking he would cause he was a close friend). All that did was make things go underground. Meanwhile, WW then put every thing on me, as she re-wrote history to justify the affair, sending me into a deep anxious depression. 1 month later I confirmed the affair was even stronger and had hard evidence, AGAIN I confronted WW and OM, did a mini-exposure to OM wife, and family. EVEN that wasn't enough, 2 weeks later I caught WW at OM house, then did full exposure. It wasn't until full exposure that WW finally started to snap out of it. Sure she resented me for months, and actually still does, we are barely on the road to recovery, BUT the affair is dead. Now the only options for WW are to fix the marriage or leave for the unknown, there is no other option with OM at this time.

Listen to the folks here, I'd be willing to bet money that your wife is still contacting OM.
Posted By: living_well Re: any chance - 05/02/17 12:01 PM
Originally Posted By: anonymityplease
To living_well:

I'm not sure which you mean by your opening paragraph. You regret that you exposed the past affair to your children and family? Or you regret that you didn't expose the past affair further to more people and more publicly?


Sorry that I was not clear. Yes I told immediate family right away but there was no broad exposure. For example, friends and neighbours were not told. He showed up at my mother's funeral as the bereaved son in law. Indeed he even spoke to the priest before the service and said I was a wicked woman for abandoning my family and should not be put in the front row. Fortunately the priest ignored him.

Maybe I should add that the divorce took six years as he fought it every step of the way.

Originally Posted By: anonymityplease
When the affair reappeared months later, did you publicly expose the affair to everyone at that point? If not, why not? If so, why did it not work well? The affair would have been current and ongoing at that point.


No I did not although I should have. It is exactly what I should have done. I just filed for divorce citing her as his adultery partner. There was no 'no fault' divorce in my state at that time.

Originally Posted By: anonymityplease
My apologies for not fully understanding what you're trying to say. Your situation sounds more similar to mine at this point. Thanks.


Affairs are addictions. How is the snooping going?
Posted By: Allan_Tweed Re: any chance - 05/02/17 12:53 PM
AP,
Please listen to them - I am in a similar situation as you - but not through a lack of desire. I want to expose, but have no proof, and cannot locate the POSOMs Wife ***EDIT*** to expose to. My wife claims there is no contact, but as I have no way of verifying calls or emails she makes at work I cannot verify this. Heck the POSOM used to work for her, and was a big part of her office, his name is mentioned once every few weeks - this brings back the fog. I can plot the days on a calendar when his name is mentioned just by how she reacts to me. She gets closer, and closer, we seem to make progress, then someone brings up his name. Guess what? That night she is withdrawn, and her Love Bank is not receiving. And we start again, lucky that my deposits are still there - the balance is growing, but slowly.

Next - I haven't seen anyone here mention it, but do not bring up this site. Don't invite her here, and don't talk directly about MB or Dr. Harley. If you wish to share some information from the site, I recommend copy the text to a word program and print it out without the URLs or names etc. At least until the Affair is dead, crushed and you are in fully recovery a football team protects it play book, this site is your play book, and you have the best offensive, and defensive line your could every hope to find.

Next - you need to expose - your children are adults, and have the right and a need to know. They can be your allies in this.

This will also help them see that every person - no matter faith, education, or how it seems on the outside can be tempted. I think MB would be best taught to teens, before they start serious dating, but hey too late for us, failing that it should be mandatory pre-marriage learning.

Your exposure doesn't have to be nuclear as you see it, you, I am sure have a gift for words, and can present this as a call for assistance. Start with your children, tell them the truth, and nothing but the truth, tell them (if this is your goal) that you want to save your marriage, and that you would like their support.

How close is your wife to her family? Parents? Siblings? Who has the greatest influence in her life? These people can help you, but they need to know about the affair.

Yes she will be mad - I know that is daunting, but what is she mad about? Her actions? Or her actions being revealed to people she cares for? If she doesn't / didn't want people to know what she did, then she needs to ask herself why would she do it?

You have basically said that there is a timeline - August of this year. You have until then to win her back. I have a feeling that about two years ago your oldest left for school, correct? I make this guess as I am thinking that her changes towards you, are a combination of your depression, and some empty nest type reactions on her part.

How much time are you spending together? Your depression makes me think that you might not spend as much time with her as you did when you were younger. Good news, she is looking for you as a buddy - not great, but this gives you an open door to start making deposits - if the bank can be re-opened. (hint to re-open the bank you need to eliminate the other depositor). In the meantime that is a great way to Plan A. I know that you have been told to get and read SAA - do it. Also while waiting read up on the Emotional Needs (EN) start here:http://marriagebuilders.com//graphic/mbi3550_summary.html

What are your wifes biggest ENs? Can you fill any of them? There are some that you might not be able to - until the other depositor - or fantasy of him - is gone, but start with what you can.

I used to tell my kids that before telling a joke I want them to consider would they be willing to tell their grandparents sitting at the front of a church? This works pretty well for judging any action. If I (your wife, my wife...) consider would we do this, or say this in that situation it may have an impact on if we would do it.

In short, when she expresses anger, you tell her you are sorry that her affair is causing her so much pain. As it isn't your request for support that causes her pain, but that the affair itself is no longer a secret - which is what she wants.

***EDIT***
Posted By: anonymityplease Re: any chance - 05/02/17 12:58 PM
Thanks for the clarification.

I have snooped and not found any evidence of any contact for an affair. I have looked on her laptop, her phone, and tracked her every movement with her phone. She has it with her 24/7 and has no idea I can track her phone. The OM was ticked at her when he found out she had lied to him and risked facing an angry husband who could've been violent. I ruined the affair for them by texting him from her phone. She had met him in a bar in another city that she used to visit. I know she has not been near that city ever since I confronted her about the affair. And I have no reason to think he has made any effort to come to our city or anywhere nearby.

If affairs are as addicting as crack cocaine as everyone is saying, if my wife is currently having an affair, it would be with someone else. She was just going to use this original OM for sex and only sex. I read all the texts and can tell. She had zero interest in him other than as a boy toy.

Another problem in our marriage is that my wife reads lots of erotic books on her phone. Probably 2-3 hours a day she reads this stuff, and I've seen what books she reads. It's 50 Shades of Gray kind of stuff, not merely Hallmark movie sweet romances. She started doing this when she declared 2 years ago that we were done. I didn't realize until the affair and started snooping what she had been reading. Also, I discovered that she had started drinking a good bit, not merely wine, but margaritas and martinis. Of course, with me in my position in Christian ministry, she couldn't do this locally, so she would go to this other city and do it there. That's how she met this guy in a bar.

Her brother (with whom she's close) flies for the airlines and every now and then when he would fly into a city near us. She would use that as a cover to go to that city and stay with her brother over night. But then try to hook up with this other man. It never worked out, but she tried. I read all the texts. She even tried to go to a resort city further away to meet her brother there, a city this OM frequented (which I know from reading the texts and his social media pages). But that's when I ruined the affair and so she never did.

She is embarrassed that I found out about it all. And now she has cleaned up her act, at least temporarily. She no longer reads books on her phone (something that I never confronted her about, but I've noticed the change). She no longer visits her brother in other cities. She hasn't gone out drinking (I have other ways I've tracked this). I hope these are permanent changes, but I suspect she simply cleaned up her act so that when she leaves me in September (when our youngest goes off to college), she won't look like the bad person in this divorce, because despite all these changes, she has made no positive step to rebuild our relationship, and any time I try to talk about us in loving positive ways, she gets irritated and builds walls. Every indication is that she is just delaying and postponing til she pulls the plug on our marriage in September.

So I do not think any affair has gone underground. Every possible way I can check, I'm finding nothing. Two months ago, when I checked on anything, nearly every single time I found evidence of her double life. And I never revealed what all I knew about her double life or how I knew. There were ways I was snooping that she doesn't even suspect.

So yeah, I think she has cleaned up her act temporarily until she leaves me in September. That's what I fully expect. And that's why the bigger problem I'm facing is not that she had an affair, but that she has built walls against me. That was true before the brief affair and is still true afterward. The affair made it worse and gave her more strength and reason to shun me.

Nothing will improve for our marriage until these walls come down.
Posted By: Allan_Tweed Re: any chance - 05/02/17 01:10 PM
Originally Posted By: anonymityplease
...

Nothing will improve for our marriage until these walls come down.

So how can you tear down the walls - sorry Pink Floyd just ran through my head?
Is SF a big EN for her? This could be sensitive, but before she built the walls were you meeting her EN for SF? Does she have specific desires? Is pornography and issue? http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8122_Pornography.html

During the Plan A - what can you do to start meeting her ENs? Which can you meet without her even noticing?

Who was she going to the bar with to drink? Alone, or always to meet her brother? Or someone else? Why did this start?
The answer to these questions may help you tear down the walls.
Posted By: anonymityplease Re: any chance - 05/02/17 01:12 PM
Thanks, Allan Tweed. That's kind of the position I'm in. If there was a current ongoing affair, I would expose it (knowing what I do now from this site). But I have no indication or evidence that my wife is having an affair. Every indication is that she has cleaned up her act (at least temporarily) so that she doesn't look like the bad person when she splits from me when our youngest goes off to college in September.

So the reason I keep resisting the advice to expose her now is simply because I already missed my chance with the past affair.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: any chance - 05/02/17 01:15 PM
If you are not going to take the advice, what can we do for you?
Posted By: Allan_Tweed Re: any chance - 05/02/17 01:32 PM
Originally Posted By: anonymityplease
Thanks, Allan Tweed. ..snip.. Every indication is that she has cleaned up her act (at least temporarily) so that she doesn't look like the bad person when she splits from me when our youngest goes off to college in September.

So the reason I keep resisting the advice to expose her now is simply because I already missed my chance with the past affair.

You don't need to have a current affair to expose, you have proof of the past affair, that is enough for your children, and family. If as you believe she is just pretending to be nice until she divorces you, and you do nothing then she will look like an angel, and this will be blamed on you - she will spin it. This act that you describe is what she is doing, laying the ground work. Take the proof that you have already from her phone - her texts etc, and tell your children, tell her family, her closest friends, then ask them for their support in saving your marriage. Or, as ML's post below is - if you don't start there, what is your next step? I wish I could expose, but I truly have no proof (My ww confessed her feelings) and I have no one to expose to - she told my parents herself.
Posted By: markos Re: any chance - 05/02/17 01:36 PM
Originally Posted By: anonymityplease
I understand why everyone says to expose an ongoing affair. I completely understand that and agree with it.

But in my situation since the affair is over, I would feel foolish to suddenly announce publicly to our families, to our friends, to our church, to everyone: "My wife had an affair 2 months ago. It's over, but I just want everyone to know what she did." How is that therapeutic?

The main problem with our marriage is still the same now as it was before the affair, she is done with me and does not want me to meet her needs. To quote her, "I want a buddy, not a husband." In other words, she doesn't mind if I go biking or hiking with her, but she doesn't want to share a normal married relationship with me.

I've tolerated this for 2 years now only because I know it was my depression and grumpiness while depressed that drove her to reject me. And I hate that I was ever that way and I want to show her I'm not that way. But she seems completely unimpressed. And it's not an act that I'm putting on. Trying to save our marriage and impress her with my love is what dug me out of depression in every area of my life (work, ministry, kids, etc). Depression (for me at least) was wallowing in self-absorbed self-pity. I realized I was about to lose the best thing that ever happened to me, and trying to win her back was what got me out of that depression.


ap,

I see that we're not going to be able to convince you that this affair is ongoing.

What you're going to find is that your efforts to make love bank deposits and change your wife's feelings are ineffective.

Exposure would bring that to an end.

Also, exposure would save you from shouldering a silent burden. You tend toward depression and now you are quietly suffering the pain of your wife's affair with no support from anyone in your life. That's too much to ask of anybody, let alone someone who tends toward depression. Eventually you won't be able to sustain your efforts to continue to win back your wife. Exposure will make your efforts more effective and make it possible for you to keep them up longer.

Have you listened to Dr. Harley's radio show yet? I'm going to tell you what Steve Harley, Dr. Harley's son and a counselor himself, told me: embark on a program of education about Marriage Builders. There is a lot to learn and you need to get it firmly fixed in your mind if you are going to save your marriage.

Again, a divorce threat won't do it. You are well within your rights to a divorce, but if you are hoping that your wife will finally be motivated to do her part if she thinks she might lose you, I can tell you from my own personal experience with my wife that that does not work and makes her like you even less.

Please send Dr. Harley an email on his radio show at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com and describe your situation to him and get him to answer your questions on his show. Please start listening to the show daily - if you want to save your marriage you cannot afford to pass up a free hour of counseling help every day. Please watch the infidelity video here on this site. Please read the Basic Concepts, Q&A columns, and articles here on this site.

Do you want to stay married? The answers to how to do that are here, free of charge. Your present course isn't working. I've been there.
Posted By: Ariel Re: any chance - 05/02/17 01:57 PM
Please do not recommend non Harley resources to posters seeking help.
Posted By: anonymityplease Re: any chance - 05/02/17 02:01 PM
Thanks again for all the responses.

To Allan Tweed:
I don't know the code words here. EN is probably emotional needs. Is SF = sexual feelings? Not sure.

For months and months, I've been trying to meet her EN. I am working hard to become a good listener, an active listener, taking mental notes when she describes her work or friends that I don't know personally.


To MelodyLane:
I do appreciate your continued responses. I am willing to take advice if it applies to my situation. You're going to have to spell out in specific steps what you think I should do and say. Like I said above, I would feel foolish to suddenly announce publicly to our families, to our friends, to our church, to everyone: "My wife had an affair 2 months ago. It's over, but I just want everyone to know what she did." How is that therapeutic?


To markos:
I plan to listen to the show in the car today.


To all:
It's hard to convince me that the affair is ongoing because there is no evidence that it is. It's hard to convince me the Yankees won last night, because there is no evidence that they did.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: any chance - 05/02/17 02:04 PM
Originally Posted By: anonymityplease
TTo MelodyLane:
I do appreciate your continued responses. I am willing to take advice if it applies to my situation. You're going to have to spell out in specific steps what you think I should do and say. Like I said above, I would feel foolish to suddenly announce publicly to our families, to our friends, to our church, to everyone: "My wife had an affair 2 months ago. It's over, but I just want everyone to know what she did." How is that therapeutic?


WE gave you advice that applies to your situation but you have rejected it. Are you in a position to even KNOW what is therapeutic or not? How is that? I am looking at your marriage and it doesn't seem like you do.

Are you wasting our valuable free time here? Just so you know, we are all volunteers who have careers and marriages. We are posting to you out of our own free time.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: any chance - 05/02/17 02:07 PM
Quote:
You're going to have to spell out in specific steps what you think I should do and say.


I do not have to do anything for someone who is not serious about taking the advice he has been given. I would like to know why we should give you more advice when you haven't taken any of the advice provided?
Posted By: markos Re: any chance - 05/02/17 02:28 PM
Originally Posted By: anonymityplease
She is embarrassed that I found out about it all. And now she has cleaned up her act, at least temporarily. She no longer reads books on her phone (something that I never confronted her about, but I've noticed the change). She no longer visits her brother in other cities. She hasn't gone out drinking (I have other ways I've tracked this). I hope these are permanent changes, but I suspect she simply cleaned up her act so that when she leaves me in September (when our youngest goes off to college), she won't look like the bad person in this divorce, because despite all these changes, she has made no positive step to rebuild our relationship, and any time I try to talk about us in loving positive ways, she gets irritated and builds walls. Every indication is that she is just delaying and postponing til she pulls the plug on our marriage in September.


This is all the more reason to tell people what she did. This will dispel her fantasy of being able to divorce you and seem like she did nothing wrong. Then truly reconciling with you may start to seem like the more reasonable option to her.
Posted By: markos Re: any chance - 05/02/17 02:35 PM
Originally Posted By: anonymityplease
So the reason I keep resisting the advice to expose her now is simply because I already missed my chance with the past affair.


I don't think Dr. Harley says anywhere that you can't expose an affair after it is over, and I know he says family and children should definitely be told.

And I know that Dr. Harley is an expert in helping couples recover a romantic loving marriage they BOTH like after infidelity. And you don't look like an expert in recovery from an affair - so far you are failing. Maybe you should stop following your own instincts and start learning what the expert has to say?
Posted By: SusieQ Re: any chance - 05/02/17 02:51 PM
Originally Posted By: anonymityplease
I have snooped and not found any evidence of any contact for an affair. I have looked on her laptop, her phone, and tracked her every movement with her phone. She has it with her 24/7 and has no idea I can track her phone.

Snooping is not a 100% way to "know" the affair is over.

You gave your WW huge clues that you were spying on her (taking her to where the OM met her etc). Again, something we NEVER advise. It always backfires.

It is quickly becoming common knowledge that a snooping spouse can track you by your phone. I was just watching a TV show where one of the characters tracked where the other had been all day by checking their phone. There are webpages and websites designed to help waywards conceal their activities from their snooping spouses.

Any time I see a BS declare the affair is over without really following any of the steps, it throws up a lot of red flags:
* this is a BS that grossly underestimates a WS
* there are issues with denial
* this is a BS that wants to skip the uncomfortable parts of MB and this going to be A LOT harder to recover

Some signs that the affair is over?

You would want to see are WS is willing to work on marriage, WS is willing to be transparent with their phone, email, etc, WS spends most of free time with you, etc. If your WS is still clinging to their SSL and not working on the marriage, then, sorry, but no...they took their activities further underground.
Posted By: SusieQ Re: any chance - 05/02/17 02:52 PM
*Even if she DIDN'T know and wasn't being careful about being tracked via phone (you said she and the OM are miles and miles apart), all she would have to do is use a burner phoner and/or another device (work phone or computer) to contact the OM. Any type of contact would be a continuation of the affair and her lovebank will be closed to you.

**Even the affair has cooled between her and this OM, because you didn't expose it, it is likely to flare back up at some point, because that's what waywards like to do - it's like a hit off a crackpipe or a small high to have contact. It doesn't matter if she only viewed him as a "boy toy".

***Even if the affair has cooled down, your WW could very easily start a new affair. Again, it is something we often see when an affair is not exposed.
Posted By: markos Re: any chance - 05/02/17 02:55 PM
Originally Posted By: anonymityplease
To markos:
I plan to listen to the show in the car today.


Why pass up yesterday's show? It's going to be unavailable to you at noon Central time today, when a new show becomes available.

5 hours of free marriage counseling a week from Dr. Harley who has been a successful marriage counselor for nearly 4 decades and specializes in recovery from infidelity. Why pass this up?

By the way, a lot of my questions are rhetorical - I don't want to know why you are passing it up: I want to point out you are making a big mistake in passing it up.

I just got done teaching a Marriage Builders class at church - 13 weeks, and it was translated into Spanish by our bilingual minister. At the end of the class the last week he talked for a long time to the class in Spanish. I couldn't understand everything he was saying, but at one point I could tell he was saying "There are no excuses, brothers, for living in a bad marriage when all this free help is available."
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: any chance - 05/02/17 03:09 PM
Originally Posted By: anonymityplease
Well, she did really neither. She wants space, freedom, and independence from me and the kids, but she's also not willing to end our marriage.


There is probably a plan in place to leave you for the OM. She will have complete freedom to do this because no one knows she had an affair with this guy. She will be free to introduce this rat to your children and family as a result. Do you want to be facing this OM for years to come at family events?

You would wreck this plan in one fell swoop if you exposed the affair. Exposure will effectively ruin the future of an affair.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: any chance - 05/02/17 03:25 PM
Here is how it will play out, she leaves you ["marriage didn't work out and I was unhappy for years because anonymityplease is satan incarnate] and meets this new wonderful man that makes her so happy. She introduces new guy to family, friends and children. They are all so happy for her!! She has found true love and happiness!

And who is the NEW GUY? The OM. The rat that contributed to the demise of your marriage. So at that point when you object, you just look crazy, bitter and jealous. No one believes you when you talk about an affair. Your kids become friends with the RAT who helped destroy their family.

Have you ever watched those reality affair shows on TV? This is a very common scenario.
Posted By: anonymityplease Re: any chance - 05/02/17 06:43 PM
To MelodyLane:

I appreciate your continued responses, but you're not answering my questions. You copy & paste steps about exposing a current affair. I have asked for you to clarify specific steps about exposing a past affair. I've asked twice now. What am I to say to family members, friends, church members?... about a *past* affair? They will want to know why I'm airing all this dirty laundry in public. What am I to say? I can't say I have reason to think she's still having an affair because I have no reason to think so. None at all. And I've been looking. So help me out. How do I answer the question, Why am I exposing a past affair and shaming my wife for something in the past? Thanks.

I can guarantee that there is absolutely no plan in place to leave me for the OM. You're making wrong assumptions based on limited knowledge of the facts. My wife is a highly paid professional. The OM is a punk she agreed to meet only for sex. Nothing more. I read it in the texts in her own words. He is 20 years younger, lower educational standard, lower income, lower social class, etc. Essentially like having an affair with the pool boy. Just a pool boy in another city that she met in a bar who wanted to do it with her. I know all about him because like an idiot he has posted way too much personal information on social media for years. This was not an affair between equals or peers. It was a fling with a boy toy that she never thought would be discovered. All her friends and family would be horrified if she pursued an actual relationship with this guy.


To markos:

Yes, I listened to the show for January 30 on the app. Some good advice. But a lot of sales of books and coaching and stuff.


To the moderator Ariel:

Why no mention of non Harley resources? I understand this a forum on his website, but it seems if there is good advice in other materials, then it should be mentioned. No one has a monopoly on the truth, not even Harley. Otherwise, this all comes across as merely a high-pressure sales pitch that is manipulated only to effusively praise Harley and never honestly critique his teachings. I opened myself up on this forum because I thought I would get honest objective answers, not a one-sided sales pitch.


To SusieQ:

Maybe I need to go over to another forum and ask advice about snooping. But currently I have no reason to think the OM is in the picture at all.
Posted By: markos Re: any chance - 05/02/17 06:51 PM
Originally Posted By: anonymityplease
To MelodyLane:

I appreciate your continued responses, but you're not answering my questions. You copy & paste steps about exposing a current affair. I have asked for you to clarify specific steps about exposing a past affair. I've asked twice now. What am I to say to family members, friends, church members?... about a *past* affair? They will want to know why I'm airing all this dirty laundry in public. What am I to say?


You say that she had an affair, and who with, and that you are struggling to put your marriage back together, and ask for their support. It's that simple.

Tell your children about the affair and tell them that affairs are wrong because of how they hurt your spouse, and tell them that every married person needs to take steps to avoid falling in love with someone else so they do not have an affair and hurt their spouse and children.
Posted By: Prisca Re: any chance - 05/02/17 07:32 PM
Quote:
I appreciate your continued responses, but you're not answering my questions. You copy & paste steps about exposing a current affair. I have asked for you to clarify specific steps about exposing a past affair. I've asked twice now. What am I to say to family members, friends, church members?... about a *past* affair? They will want to know why I'm airing all this dirty laundry in public. What am I to say? I can't say I have reason to think she's still having an affair because I have no reason to think so. None at all. And I've been looking. So help me out.

I would hardly qualify an affair that took place 2 months ago as a "past affair." It is still very current -- the wounds and damage are current. Recovery has not occurred.

Quote:
How do I answer the question, Why am I exposing a past affair and shaming my wife for something in the past? Thanks.

It has been explained many times why exposure is not the same as shaming. Why do you insist that it is? Nobody is telling you to shame your wife.

Quote:
I can guarantee that there is absolutely no plan in place to leave me for the OM. You're making wrong assumptions based on limited knowledge of the facts. My wife is a highly paid professional. The OM is a punk she agreed to meet only for sex. Nothing more. I read it in the texts in her own words. He is 20 years younger, lower educational standard, lower income, lower social class, etc. Essentially like having an affair with the pool boy. Just a pool boy in another city that she met in a bar who wanted to do it with her. I know all about him because like an idiot he has posted way too much personal information on social media for years. This was not an affair between equals or peers. It was a fling with a boy toy that she never thought would be discovered. All her friends and family would be horrified if she pursued an actual relationship with this guy.

They always affair down.


Quote:
To markos:

Yes, I listened to the show for January 30 on the app. Some good advice. But a lot of sales of books and coaching and stuff.


To the moderator Ariel:

Why no mention of non Harley resources? I understand this a forum on his website, but it seems if there is good advice in other materials, then it should be mentioned. No one has a monopoly on the truth, not even Harley. Otherwise, this all comes across as merely a high-pressure sales pitch that is manipulated only to effusively praise Harley and never honestly critique his teachings. I opened myself up on this forum because I thought I would get honest objective answers, not a one-sided sales pitch.

How rude. Do you make it a habit of entering other peoples homes or places of business and making such baseless accusations, or do you just reserve that for Marriage Builders?

Dr. Harley provides most of his material for free. Most of what is printed in his books can be found and downloaded from his website. His radio show is free. You can call and email it, for free. You can talk to him, for free. He gives away his books, for free. He provides this forum for those of us who have been through his program to help people like you, for free. You're not going to find a lot of patience for accusations of money-grubbing here.

If you don't like what is being said to you, you can leave. For FREE! You are free to look elsewhere, and take other peoples advice. And we will wish you all the best.
Posted By: mrEureka Re: any chance - 05/02/17 07:48 PM
Originally Posted By: anonymityplease

To markos:

Yes, I listened to the show for January 30 on the app. Some good advice. But a lot of sales of books and coaching and stuff.
From where does your sense of entitlement originate?

"I was listening to radio, and they had the audacity to play a commercial!"

Nobody is forcing you to buy anything.
Posted By: apples123 Re: any chance - 05/02/17 07:53 PM
We know you haven't actually read the Exposure 101 thread because it contains a form letter that is very effective and direct and not at all vindictive.

Read the Exposure thread then return.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: any chance - 05/02/17 09:13 PM
Originally Posted By: anonymityplease
To MelodyLane:

I appreciate your continued responses, but you're not answering my questions. You copy & paste steps about exposing a current affair.


Obviously you are not even reading my posts. I have TWICE posted Dr Harley's comments about a PAST affair, even though an affair that ended supposedly 2 months ago is not considered a PAST affair. What is the point of posting to you if you won't read the post?

Quote:
I have asked for you to clarify specific steps about exposing a past affair. I've asked twice now. What am I to say to family members, friends, church members?... about a *past* affair? They will want to know why I'm airing all this dirty laundry in public. What am I to say? I can't say I have reason to think she's still having an affair because I have no reason to think so. None at all. And I've been looking. So help me out. How do I answer the question, Why am I exposing a past affair and shaming my wife for something in the past? Thanks.


See, this is not a sincere question, but a rhetorical question that represents your personal negative view about exposure because you feel you some how know what is therapeutic. [you don't] Those are your own hypothetical questions. So the issue is not about the words you should use [you seem like a bright fella and can figure that out] but that you don't AGREE it should be done. I have posted Dr Harleys quotes about why it should done MANY TIMES.

And if you need some talking points, you can read my Exposure 101 thread or figure it out yourself. IF you want the words to say, then stop being LAZY and read my thread. We have referred you to the thread many times. Have you read it?

Quote:
I can guarantee that there is absolutely no plan in place to leave me for the OM. You're making wrong assumptions based on limited knowledge of the facts.


You can "guarantee" no such thing. She has shut you out and you have no idea what her plan is. You have even less idea what is happening to your marriage beucase you have poor instincts about the situation. There is no crime in that, but it is a crime when you won't listen to objective advice.

Quote:
My wife is a highly paid professional. The OM is a punk she agreed to meet only for sex. Nothing more. I read it in the texts in her own words. He is 20 years younger, lower educational standard, lower income, lower social class, etc. Essentially like having an affair with the pool boy. Just a pool boy in another city that she met in a bar who wanted to do it with her. I know all about him because like an idiot he has posted way too much personal information on social media for years. This was not an affair between equals or peers. It was a fling with a boy toy that she never thought would be discovered. All her friends and family would be horrified if she pursued an actual relationship with this guy.


This is all meaningless fogbabble. It is the rule rather than the exception that cheaters "affair down." Nothing here would stop your wife from leaving for the OM. We have seen it a million times. You imagine that cheaters use reason in pursuit of affairs, and they do no such thing.

Quote:
Why no mention of non Harley resources? I understand this a forum on his website, but it seems if there is good advice in other materials, then it should be mentioned. No one has a monopoly on the truth, not even Harley. Otherwise, this all comes across as merely a high-pressure sales pitch that is manipulated only to effusively praise Harley and never honestly critique his teachings. I opened myself up on this forum because I thought I would get honest objective answers, not a one-sided sales pitch.



What an obnoxious, ungrateful thing to say especially since you are reaping the benefits of his FREE FORUM. crazy As a guest on Dr Harleys forum, I would expect a little more respect.
Posted By: markos Re: any chance - 05/02/17 09:19 PM
Quote:
Why no mention of non Harley resources?
Because we all tried them, and they don't work?
Posted By: anonymityplease Re: any chance - 05/02/17 09:56 PM
I apologize about the comment to the moderator asking why non-Hartley things are not allowed. May I delete the comment? I thought I could edit and delete a post.
Posted By: BlindSighted2013 Re: any chance - 05/02/17 10:51 PM
anonymity, if ONLY this site were so "restrictive" when my husband first began his affair, then I may have been spared OVER a decade of grief in my life.

Most of us have tried everything else before we came back here to truly save our marriages.

Dr. Harley (not Hartley) has a straight-forward plan that works, BUT it is certainly not simple. Dr. Harley gives out advice for FREE on his radio show, and he also corresponds via email for FREE with those who have been on his show.
Posted By: goody2shoes Re: any chance - 05/02/17 11:04 PM
The best thing would be if you trusted people who have been there themselves and expose the affair asap. That will give your marriage the best chance of recovery. And by recovery we mean restoring trust in your marriage and creating a romantic, affair-proof marriage.

The next best thing would be to read:
How Dr. Harley Learned to Save Marriages
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3100_how.html
How to Survive Infidelity
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5525_qa.html
When Should an Affair Be Exposed?
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8112_exposed.html

After reading all that, you probably will understand why exposure is so essential for recovery.

The alternative will be that you think the affair is over, but it will go underground or one of them will rekindle the affair in the near future. Affairs are like addictions. Nobody wants to have an affair, yet so many people do. Nobody wants to shoot up heroine, but too many will suffer withdrawal if it has been two months since their last shot.

You don't want to experience this again.
Posted By: anonymityplease Re: any chance - 05/02/17 11:25 PM
Thanks, goody2shoes, for the links. These words in the third link are especially important in my situation. As I mentioned in one of the early pages of this thread, there are some who might demand my immediate firing even though I wasn't the cheating spouse and I have biblical grounds for divorce. And my friends and family are all mostly connected to the source of my employment. If some of them know, those who can fire me will find out. They can be very intolerant towards anything regarding divorce.

Harley says:
"While I unhesitatingly recommend immediately exposing the affair to friends, family, clergy, children and the other person's spouse, I'm not so quick to suggest immediately exposing it to an employer. That's because such exposure could have unintended legal and economic consequences. For example, the affair might constitute grounds for a sexual harassment claim by the unfaithful spouse's lover. Or it might trigger the outright firing of the spouse, making it far more difficult for them to find another job."

That last statement is my situation.
Posted By: markos Re: any chance - 05/02/17 11:27 PM
Originally Posted By: goody2shoes
The best thing would be if you trusted people who have been there themselves and expose the affair asap. That will give your marriage the best chance of recovery. And by recovery we mean restoring trust in your marriage and creating a romantic, affair-proof marriage.

The next best thing would be to read:
How Dr. Harley Learned to Save Marriages
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3100_how.html
How to Survive Infidelity
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5525_qa.html
When Should an Affair Be Exposed?
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8112_exposed.html


This is an excellent set of reading material - I highly endorse all these for you.

Here's another couple good ones to check out:
How to Survive an Affair (this is chapter 13 from His Needs, Her Needs

Infidelity: What Every Couple Should Know:

This is a video, and it's completely free. In fact there's a whole video section.
Posted By: goody2shoes Re: any chance - 05/02/17 11:38 PM
Originally Posted By: anonymityplease
Thanks, goody2shoes, for the links. These words in the third link are especially important in my situation. As I mentioned in one of the early pages of this thread, there are some who might demand my immediate firing even though I wasn't the cheating spouse and I have biblical grounds for divorce. And my friends and family are all mostly connected to the source of my employment. If some of them know, those who can fire me will find out. They can be very intolerant towards anything regarding divorce.

Harley says:
"While I unhesitatingly recommend immediately exposing the affair to friends, family, clergy, children and the other person's spouse, I'm not so quick to suggest immediately exposing it to an employer. That's because such exposure could have unintended legal and economic consequences. For example, the affair might constitute grounds for a sexual harassment claim by the unfaithful spouse's lover. Or it might trigger the outright firing of the spouse, making it far more difficult for them to find another job."

That last statement is my situation.

If I read correctly, you say you can be fired if you divorce. We don't recommend divorce, we recommend to kill the affair and restore your marriage.

Would you listen to these radio fragments on affair/exposure and share your thoughts with us?
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=9698
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=9699
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: any chance - 05/02/17 11:46 PM
Originally Posted By: anonymityplease

Harley says:
"While I unhesitatingly recommend immediately exposing the affair to friends, family, clergy, children and the other person's spouse, I'm not so quick to suggest immediately exposing it to an employer. That's because such exposure could have unintended legal and economic consequences. For example, the affair might constitute grounds for a sexual harassment claim by the unfaithful spouse's lover. Or it might trigger the outright firing of the spouse, making it far more difficult for them to find another job."


First off, the last line only applies to workplace exposure for a workplace affair. It is not applicable to your situation. No one recommended you expose to the workplace.

As Dr Harley says, he recommends "exposing the affair to friends, family, clergy, children and the other person's spouse.."
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: any chance - 05/02/17 11:47 PM
]
Originally Posted By: anonymityplease
As I mentioned in one of the early pages of this thread, there are some who might demand my immediate firing even though I wasn't the cheating spouse and I have biblical grounds for divorce.


We are not recommending divorce. That is where you are headed now. We are trying to help you prevent that outcome.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: any chance - 05/02/17 11:53 PM
Other free resources would be to send Dr Harley an email asking for his advice. He will send you a free book if he reads your email on the air. I have been here for 16 years and I received all of my initial books free this way. You can obtain all of the worksheets and questionaires free at this link: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi4500_resource.html

If you don't want to do any of that, you can notify the moderators of your address and I will purchase a book for you. The book you need is Surviving an Affair [$13] and it is here here or on amazon at here
Posted By: goody2shoes Re: any chance - 05/03/17 12:11 AM
Originally Posted By: goody2shoes
Originally Posted By: anonymityplease
Thanks, goody2shoes, for the links. These words in the third link are especially important in my situation. As I mentioned in one of the early pages of this thread, there are some who might demand my immediate firing even though I wasn't the cheating spouse and I have biblical grounds for divorce. And my friends and family are all mostly connected to the source of my employment. If some of them know, those who can fire me will find out. They can be very intolerant towards anything regarding divorce.

Harley says:
"While I unhesitatingly recommend immediately exposing the affair to friends, family, clergy, children and the other person's spouse, I'm not so quick to suggest immediately exposing it to an employer. That's because such exposure could have unintended legal and economic consequences. For example, the affair might constitute grounds for a sexual harassment claim by the unfaithful spouse's lover. Or it might trigger the outright firing of the spouse, making it far more difficult for them to find another job."

That last statement is my situation.

If I read correctly, you say you can be fired if you divorce. We don't recommend divorce, we recommend to kill the affair and restore your marriage.

Would you listen to these radio fragments on affair/exposure and share your thoughts with us?
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=9698
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=9699

I left the third part out:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=9700
Posted By: Allan_Tweed Re: any chance - 05/03/17 05:01 PM
***EDIT***
Posted By: Ariel Re: any chance - 05/03/17 05:15 PM
From our Terms of Service:

9. If you are offering advice to person asking a question, you agree to refrain from posting material that is counter to the Marriage Builders program, whether that be in the form of a book reference or a personal philosophy

The purpose of this forum is to help others find solutions using Marriage Builders concepts. We ask that you keep this in mind when posting to others.
Posted By: Allan_Tweed Re: any chance - 05/03/17 05:23 PM
***EDIT***

Enough. Do not argue any more on another person's thread. If you have any questions about our policies, send an email to a Moderator or an Administrator.

arielmarriagebuilder@gmail.com
Posted By: goody2shoes Re: any chance - 05/04/17 10:21 AM
Originally Posted By: goody2shoes
Originally Posted By: anonymityplease
Thanks, goody2shoes, for the links. These words in the third link are especially important in my situation. As I mentioned in one of the early pages of this thread, there are some who might demand my immediate firing even though I wasn't the cheating spouse and I have biblical grounds for divorce. And my friends and family are all mostly connected to the source of my employment. If some of them know, those who can fire me will find out. They can be very intolerant towards anything regarding divorce.

Harley says:
"While I unhesitatingly recommend immediately exposing the affair to friends, family, clergy, children and the other person's spouse, I'm not so quick to suggest immediately exposing it to an employer. That's because such exposure could have unintended legal and economic consequences. For example, the affair might constitute grounds for a sexual harassment claim by the unfaithful spouse's lover. Or it might trigger the outright firing of the spouse, making it far more difficult for them to find another job."

That last statement is my situation.

If I read correctly, you say you can be fired if you divorce. We don't recommend divorce, we recommend to kill the affair and restore your marriage.

Would you listen to these radio fragments on affair/exposure and share your thoughts with us?
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=9698
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=9699
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=9700

Did you listen to the fragments? If so, do you want to share your thoughts with us?
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