Hello all,

I am in a marriage where my wife had two past, online indiscretions. I forgave as best as I could and we moved forward. However, I think that I have some form of ptsd that has given me trust issues. We have been married for almost 5 years.

Last summer, I had a high impact motorcycle accident and spent a month in the hospital. I became disabled as a result. I had to spend time in a nursing facility, and almost died from sepsis. These events have given me some mental and emotional issues.

Our marriage has been great, for,the most part. However, intimacy and sex was almost non-existent. This coupled with my post accident issues, I decided to separate. Our house used to be a duplex, and I suggested we each live on a side.

I found myself questioning my decision. My wife seemed upset about the split. I was bouncing between love, sadness, anger, and no emotion at all. I ended up saying mean things that are out of character, and sometimes I felt like a stranger to myself.

A month later, I asked her if she wanted to save our marriage. She became upset and asked me, "Why are you changing your mind now?" Something in the way she said that, triggered my trust issues. I asked her if something happened that would complicate things, and she said no. She left for work, and my anxiety was so bad that I checked her Facebook. I found a conversation that occurred around 2 weeks after we had separate conversation. It was with someone she dated before we got together, and who she had cut contact with because he was not respecting our relationship.

I confronted her, and she swears that they met at a bar with witnesses and just talked. She said she doesn't want to be with him because he is married, that she just needed to talk to someone. I don't know if I believe her. She did state that things talked about with him inspired her to move on.

I asked if she would go to marriage counseling. She agreed, and said that she would approach it with an open mind, but isn't making any promises. I feel that she has already made up her mind, even though our split was recent. The man is on her friend list, she changed her password, and I have no idea if they are talking or seeing each other. I have a copy of the conversation, and thought about sending it to the man's wife, but I don't know how my wife will react.

I feel lost and confused. We have been talking, but she said I am badgering her. She sometimes texts me, but said I was texting her too much. Sometimes she seems nice and open, sometimes short in speech and distant. She quipped the other morning that she wouldn't hug me while I'm shirtless, because "We aren't back there yet." I don't know if she had an indiscretion, is having an affair, or neither and just decided that she wants out now, or what is going on with her. We also have a child together.

Any insihhg6, please...

DamagedGuy

Welcome to MB and I'm sorry for what's brought you here.

You need to put spyware on her devices and see what's going on. We can help you repair your marriage from her past affairs.

Were any of the men that she had the affairs with married? Did you tell anyone about the affairs?

And I just want to caution you about marriage counselors. Read this and listen to the clips in here. Beware of Bad Counselors

Thank you for your reply. The 2nd indiscretion involved a married man, two states away. They also dated, when they were teenagers.

She uses her phone for most internet access. I could put it on her laptop. The Facebook conversation offered on 5/5, and if they are communicating, it is probably via text or some other phone app.

Did you tell the OM's BW (betrayed wife) that she had the affair with?

How did you meet your W?

Can you put spyware on her phone as well? And put VARs and GPS in her vehicle?

And did you save a copy of the Facebook conversation you found? And you need to move back into your marital bed.

I did inform the betrayed wife from the 2nd indiscretion. I did not inform the wife of the man she recently spoke to because I don't know what the consequences will be between my wife and me.

I don't have any access to her phone. She keeps it near. A GPS on the car may help, but I don't know where the guy lives, other than it may be along her normal route.

I want to move back to the marital bed, but I don't think she wants me to, and I don't know how to convince her right now.

I copied the conversation, but it didn't copy the name of who was saying what, though I know. I copied it as both a text and a word document. She said that she wanted to talk to a dear friend, that she felt hurt and lost. He wanted to meet for beers. She said she didn't trust herself, because "you know us." He convinced her to meet. The end of the convo, he asks if she is wearing panties, and says that he will always love and be attracted to her.

I want to show her the conversation and question her about it, but she is already saying that I am badgering her. I have read in places that pushing to talk can come off as needy, and can push people away.

We knew each other from childhood, and we reconnected on Facebook back in 2010.

Were either of you married when you reconnected on Facebook? How/why did your first marriage end? How/why did you W's first marriage end?

We were both legally separated. Mine was very long term, I just hadn't got around to divorcing. She left her husband of 6 years, before we got together. She dated the guy she contacted on Facebook. I question her ability to function in relationships, though things have been grnerally good between us.

She initiated conversation and says she feels emotionally drained because I flip-flopped on the separation. She said that the things I said hurt her deeply and she doesn't know when or if she can get past it, that maybe the marriage counselor can give insight. She said that she is willing to go to counseling to say that we tried.

I feel be at down and exhausted. She is not understanding or is ignoring that my behavior is related to complications from almost dying twice. I think that she just wants out. She admitted that she is being selfish, and that I need to suck it up.

We talked again before she went to bed. I pushed for it. She tried to assure me that the guy she spoke to is not an interest; that'd be has no desire to be with him at all. She said that U am pushing her away because I keep trying to talk about us. I think I need to try to detach until we see the counselor.

Welcome to MB.

Your WW seems to have a pattern of trolling for men on social media. I would not be surprised if there were more than the 3 you know about. It is how she met you afterall, while still legallly married to her first husband.

The problem with this is that she did not just fall into an affair like most people do. Most people simply have poor boundaries around the opposite sex and when someone gets too close emotionally, they end up in an affair. But in your case, your wife is actually looking for affairs. She is contacting ex lovers who are also married 'just to talk.' Well you saw for yourself that she did not just shoot the breeze about the weather, but discussed not trusting herself and not wearing panties. She is actively pursuing these men. She is looking for trouble and it seems like she is consistently finding it.

The first thing you will want to do is get enough information as you can about her current affair, and then expose it wide and far. If you have not read the exposure thread, please do so. I would make sure your first exposure target is the OM's wife. She deserves to know what is going on regardless of whether you and your wife stay together.

I know you have a child together, but 3 affairs in less than 5 years of marriage (that you know of) is a serial cheating pattern of behavior. It is possible to change this behavior, but that does not happen through blind trust. It happens through setting up extraordinary precautions that do not ever give her the opportunity to cheat again. If she is not willing to live this way ( or if you are not, I know I wouldn't be), I would cut your losses and move on.

Read this and listen to the radio clips in here Serial Cheaters

Stop talking to your WW about your relationship for now. Get the spyware put on all her devices and quitely snoop to get the evidence.

Also, read this Start here first-SAA

And notify the MODS to have your thread moved to SAA.

Do you have the books Surviving an Affair?

I'm trying not to talk about the relationship. I will try to check out the threat and listen to the clips later today.

She seems like she is open to fixing our marriage, but I can't truly tell if she is just go8my through the motions. She is now walking to make a bank deposit and supposedly meet with her mother and cousin for breakfast at the local diner, and then go shopping for the day. The problem with this, is that when I had the chance to snoop her facebook, I read the messages with one of her more recent female friends, and while my memory is clouded, it looked like they were joking about the friend introducing her to someone. My wife said that she would have to meet that person at the diner to not make me jealous. I'm trying not to take that to heart, because of the probability that she would be seen and it would get back to me, but I am so nervous that I feel sick.

I am having a difficult time handling this. I don't know if I should confront her about that, especially if she is truly with he4 mom today, or just wait for counseling.

Of course you are having a hard time. Infidelity is devastating. But confronting her would be the worst thing you could possibly do right now. Not only will she lie but she will take her activities further underground meaning that your spying will no longer work.

You need to be strategic. Even if you decide not to save the marriage, you need to know what she has been up to and with whom. Read the thread and listen to the clips.

I don't know that I will ever know for sure. I just want to stop feeling nervous, sick, and hopeless so that I can put on a front of strength and move forward, no matter what happens. I don't want to wallow in misery, so that I can be there for my kids.

I have a bike blessing this morning. I will check out the threat and clips when I get back home.

When can you get spyware put on her devices? You will always be wondering until you know the truth and you will not know until you put the spyware on all her devices. Stop talking to her about your relationship and quietly snoop. In the start here thread it explains about Plan A (being the best husband without making love busters). Read up on that.

With the conversation with her girlfriend, it definitely sounds like she's up to something and has many wayward tendencies. But don't ask her because she is going to just lie and and spin the story. So no use asking, just get the information. Also, Dr. Harley would recommend you talk to your doctor about getting some temporary ADs to get you through this tough time.

The only device I can put spyware on is her laptop. I do not ever have access to her phone.

I was on Cymbalta and trazadone because of the mess I was in as a result of the accident and becoming disabled. It was horrible for me, and I had a lot of negative side effects while trying to get off of them. They can cause suicidal ideations, and I'm feeling too dark to risk it.

I've been throwing myself into my music and lyric/poetry writing because I stop feeling like crap for a little while. I'm trying to get out and be with friends and go to concerts.

When can you put the spyware on it? Can you get her phone when she sleeps since you're still living together? What about the VAR and GPS?

Did you read about Plan A? Here What are Plan A and Plan B

We are sleeping in separate rooms. I will look into VAR and GPS.

How do I make myself stop thinking the worst?

Can you talk to your doctor about adjusting your ADs?

I don't know that AD's will help me with the constant barrage of "what if" thoughts.

They will help balance out your emotions and that's why Dr. Harley recommends them. With your disability are you able to do any exercising? How are you sleeping and eating? Once you know what she is really doing Dr. Harley has a MB plan for you to follow and that will help tremendously.

When will you be putting the spyware on her devices? What plan can you come up with to get spyware on her phone?

I am trying to exercise, but I have chronic back and leg pain. I am not eating or sleeping well at all. I try to force myself to eat. I was overweight when the accident occurred, at 220lbs. I'm probably down to 150-155. I was tortured over the choice I made to separate, and the stupid and mean things that I said. I hurt her deeply. I spoke with someone close to her who said that my wife was crying near the beginning. It pains me that I did this and that she is afraid that with my issues, I may leave again if we try to work it out.

I have to look into spyware, but it really will be impossible to get to her phone. I did locate a VAR, and it is set up and velcroed to the back-bottom her post on the side she sleeps. I,will review it tomorrow. I'm more paranoid, because of she isn't having an affair, and she finds it, she will be done with me, and people will think that I am a crazy stalker.

Read this Snooping: Is it wrong? Or, is it the right thing to do in marriage?

The thing is, she considers us separated (because I initiated it and said many hurtful things over a month's time.) We had an open book policy when together. She will not forgive me, even if there is no affair.

What, precisely, is an "open book policy"?

Before I said I wanted to separate, the policy was transparency so that if I wanted to check her phone, email, or facebook, or if she wanted to check mine, we could.

After a melancholic day, I felt better and my frame was stronger. She started texting me about her day, told me when she would be home, and sent me a pic of the event she was at. When she got home, she showed me what she bought and shared a piece of chocolate with me. I was feeling anxious and down while talking her her, but I think I kept it hidden.

Earlier I wrote her a 3 page letter, but I didn't give it to her. I find it to be therapeutic. She did glance at it, as it was on the coffee table, but she didn't read it or ask about it. I did not bring up our relationship, and neither did she. I did talk about wanting to practice driving, as my accident has added complications. I said that part of my issue was feeling like a burden, and that I would like to resume some responsibilities.

I'm still nervous, because I know that she wants to remain as friendly as we were as a couple, but I CANNOT do that if we aren't together. I have too much dignity for her to give up on our marriage, enter into a physical relationship with someone else, and then treat me like one of her girlfriends. It would be far too painful. I will have to cut her off and only speak about our son.

I am now barraged with thoughts that worst has happened. At one point, she wanted a legal separation. I was utterly sad for most of today, but these thoughts (unwarranted since I don't have proof,) have me feeling defensive and angry.

This might be a result of my issues I now have due to the trauma from the accident and the sepsis. I had a fever of 105.3, and was in a coma for a few hours. It was the 2nd time I almost died, the 1st being the accident itself. I don't know. Is it normal when your spouse is on the fence about reconciliation, and MAY have had an affair, to bounce between sadness, desperation and pain, anger, defensiveness, and the desire to go public?

I so very worried about what may be on the VAR tomorrow, if anything at all. This is maddening.

Hi DG, welcome to Marriage Builders. The others have given you good advice but I wanted to ask about what brought on the separation. Why did you separate? Did you separate because she wouldn't have sex with you? Is that what happened?

Both you and your wife have concepts about marriage that are very faulty. Do you want to try using Marriage Builders principles? Educate yourself. Explore the marriagebuilders.com website. Read the books. Start with "Surviving an Affair" and "Lovebusters", then "His Needs, Her Needs". We will be happy to walk you through the process.

Sex was infrequent as was intimacy. After talking with my wife, I understand that she was under a lot of stress with our business, and our son who is special needs.

I separated because of that, plus I was just not thinking clearly. The trauma I endured had me messed up, mentally. She is not seeing that, only the things that I said. I was trying to find my way back to her, and it took me a month to ask for another chance.

She just admitted to me that a man asked her out for coffee, and that she didn't give him a definitive answer, because she is torn.

I couldn't help but talk about us, this morning, because I am feeling insecure about where she is at as I am committed to getting us back on track and building a stronger marriage. I asked not to give up on us yet, and to please not go on that date, because I don't know if I could handle it enough to continue to fight for us.

I also said that I want our family back together and that I didn't want our son to be in a broken home situation.

She is here and I can't get to the VAR yet.

To add to my last post:

I have hope because of she is telling me the truth, she has not slept with anyone, and did not agree to the date yet. Saying that she is torn is good in that a part of her is holding on.

She went out to mow the lawn, and I was able to review the VAR. I am amazed at th3 clarity of what was recorded. All that was on there were our conversations. If she was communicating with anyone, it was via Facebook or text.

I may put it back, or try to put it in the car. She will not text and drive unless it is voice to text.

I'm not sure how to proceed. I made it clear that I don't know if I can fight for the marriage unless I know that she is willing to wait. I gave her an out by saying that if she wants to see if the grass is greener, she should tell me so that I can just focus on myself. I also said that it will be tragic if she decides to leave and date and decide later that she wants to be with me, because I have serious issues with someone being with other people after we have had a relationship.

She still wants to go to the counselor, but I don't think I can handle it if she chooses to go on that date.

This is exactly the opposite of what you have been advised to do. You are free to do what you wish but If you decide to use this site, I suggest you start at the beginning. Otherwise this is going to be a total mess and you might just as well give up now.

Hi Damaged Guy, you seem to be totally convinced that if you find evidence of your wife going on a date with another man then everything is over. But this site is all about how you can fix marriages after terrible betrayals - and even deliver a far better relationship than you had before. That is what Dr Harley's program for surviving an affair is all about.

We all get married believing that our partners won't cheat, or that we wouldn't accept that behaviour from them (as if anyone would if given the choice?!). But when you find yourself in this situation you suddenly realise that, contrary to what you might have believed before, betrayal does not make you suddenly want to give up on your marriage. Many people find that they are prepared to work really hard to get their spouses back, and fix the issues that might have contributed to marriage breakdown, even though their spouses have caused the kind of hurt that was previously unthinkable.

This forum is an amazing source of guidance if you really do want to try to fix your marriage - but you seem to be leaving that decision up to your wife who doesn't know what she wants. The best way to start getting yourself out of this depressing limbo you seem to be in is to decide what YOU want and then put in place a plan to achieve it. This forum will guide you on that plan every step of the way.

I know I am screwing this up. I trying to center myself and become focused. My desperation is on the cusp of madness.

I'm going to be starting at the beginning with this site when I have a chance to do so. Heavy reading is difficult on my phone, so I need to wait for a chance to use my laptop. Since there is no evidence of an affair just yet, and we are both living under the same roof, I am not in no contact mode.

After she is done with the lawn and what not, we are going out to eat together, and buying new mower blades. I will try my damnest not to bring up the separation or reconciling. We will spend time together, while I try to be the old me who I know she misses.

I am going to get help for my PTSD asap, so that she will see that I am serious about improving me. Initiating the separation and causing my wife so much pain shocked me and made me realize that I do not want to lose her. What I did to her is killing me inside.

The bbq that she was going to (and possibly stay over if she had too much to drive) got canceled, and that is a load off of my mind.

I can deal with the physical ramifications of my accident, but damn these internal ones. Until I can really delve into the site, is there any advice on how I should deal with her being on the fence about the date? I think that my wife mentioning it, while it stung really bad, might be a good sign that she is being honest and opening up. She also keeps using words like "we," and "us," referring to me and her. I need to learn to deal with it if she does stray. I want us to work, and it is going to be hard to know if there is an OM.

This is what I was afraid of, because separating from a female spouse over a lack of sexual fulfillment and intimacy will result in the exact OPPOSITE. It makes it much less likely you will ever get those things and are more likely to cause a sexual aversion. Women who have sex with their spouse when they have no desire often end up with a sexual aversion.

Has she felt pressured by you in the past to have sex with you? Does she feel like the separation was done to punish her?

I am bringing this up because this is likely a big issue in your marriage. If you separated over it I would wager she won't soon forget that you punished her over her lack of desire.

I would find out as much as you can about this guy and her relationship with him so you can put a stop to her affair. Can you ask her who this is?

I would also think very hard about how you can become a healthy, viable spouse for your wife. You have put her through hell and now is the time to be presenting an attractive front.

I didn't pressure her into sex. I respected her every time I was rejected. I did try talking to her about it on numerous occasions.

I asked her who asked her out on the date and won't tell me. She said that all he knows is that we are separated. I think that half of her heart is still in our marriage since she did not give him an answer. She said it would have been coffee and pie at the diner, but we all know that that is how it starts.

My issue is that since she has agreed to counseling yet goes on the date anyway, she is going to pull out completely, and I am going to be in tremendous pain.

I take responsibility for separating and saying hurtful things. I was not like this before and hate myself for it. Seeing her in pain is one of the worst things, and I did that to her. I am ashamed of myself. I am hoping for a second chance to be in her heart again, it is just that her dating while we go to counseling seems too much to bear.

Even though I screwed up and talked about us this morning, we have been having a good day, even though we aren't using words like "babe," and "love," and we are not touching. But we keep saying "we" and "us," throughout the day. She was working on making a fire pit, and I went out to look at it, and she said, "I thought it would be nice to have fires out here."

My fear is that since she still desires my close friendship, despite what I did and said, she may decide to date others which would more than likely lead to sex. I can't do that to myself. If there is no winning back her heart, I will have to detach.

But she would have felt very pressured if you talked to her about it - and punished - if you separated over it. What was the goal of the separation?


Is there a reason she feels entitled to go out with men? She does know she is married, right?

My suggestion would be to find out who this is and bust up her affair. Once you do that, you will have a chance to save your marriage and overcome the damage done.

I talked about it once in a while, I didn't badger her about it.

I stupidly said, "I release you from your vows." It is hard to explain, but I have been all over the olace, mentally and spiritually since the accident and the sepsis. I didn't mean it, and the damage is done, unless she can forgive me, and believe that I will not hurt her like that again, and that I am still in love with her. She reminded me that I said it. I had forgotten. I have not been myself, and my memory is messed up since the trauma, but it is slowly getting better.

We went out to dinner at a local place instead of the original plan to go out of town. It was nice and we talked about regular stuff, just not as much as we used to. Relationship stuff came up, but it was brief. Basically my wife and her friends are having a hard time understanding what changed, and why I want to reconcile. It is frustrating because I am damaged and was going through a crisis, realized that I made a mistake, and want my wife back.

Just now, somebody called her and she went outside with the phone...

What was the reason you gave her for wanting to separate? I still don't feel that I understand your situation. What exactly did you tell her when you decided you wanted to separate?

And who took care of you if you were disabled? When did you separate?

We separated around April 17th. I said that because of my disability and that our marriage was more like a platonic friendship that maybe she would be happier without me. I can't remember the exact words, but I regret them with all of my heart. She was helping me, I had an aid, and in home physical therapy.

For months I was on heavy opiates and other medications, slept either briefly or for up to 15 hours a day, and took many naps. I have had chronic back, wrist, and leg pain. I was bouncing between bouts of crushing depression, feeling normal for brief periods, feeling nothing, feeling anger, and my perceptions about my wife, how much she was doing for me and our family, were just messed up.

I'm losing hope. I am my worst enemy and I can't stop myself from talking about things. I'm pushing her away. I asked her to please set aside a timeframe before choosing to date. She left angry. But before, She said that she is willing to go to counseling to see if she can find a way to forgive me and see if we can work things out.
She also said that if she wanted to date, as far as she is concerned, she can because I said that I released her from her vows. On how I wish that I never did any of this.

I know that I need to stop talking to her about us. I am angry with myself that I can't get a grip.

This is confusing, because if a marriage is platonic, how does "separation" resolve this? Was separation supposed to change this? Or were you done with the marriage and if that is the case, why separate and why not get divorced?

You say the relationship was platonic, what were you doing to romance her and change that?


I read this and it is clear to me why your marriage was "platonic." How could it be otherwise when you were severely ill?

What was your strategy with this separation? What did you hope to achieve?


I agree you are your worst enemy but I think we can help you if you are very honest. I still don't understand your story.

I'm not sure what else I can say. I was feeling hopeless, felt like my wife loved me but wasn't in love. It wasn't just a lack of sex, but intimacy. Even before the accident, she couldn't take compliments. Leading up to the separation, she was angry a lot. While in the hospital, I became paranoid that I wouldn't be able to perform, and once home, we did try to have sex once, at I had trouble. I now know that it could have been the opiates. But she said that she didn't need sex. She might have been trying to make me feel better, but I couldn't perceive it at the time.

I was going through bouts where I was saying that I wished I had died in the accident, and that she deserved a man that was whole. I was just severely depressed and self-loathing. When I decided to separate, my mind was a mess, and I thought that we would both be happier.

I wrestled with it every day, and we tried to talk, but I kept coming off wrong while trying to explain what I was feeling, and it made her feel worthless. I went out with friends and went to a couple of concerts during this time, and played music with a buddy of mine, trying to get out of the house and try to live. But I would constantly feel sad and upset with myself that I left her and said things that I regret.

A month after, I tried talking to her about reconciling, and she cried and asked, "Why now? Why are you changing your mind?" And since, when we have talked, she often gets angry and yells, and beats me down. She will also sometimes cry and say that I hurt her deeply and rejected her.

She says that she is keeping an open mind about counseling, but I fear that she is just going through the motions. She told me about the guy asking her out, and I don't know if she is trying to be honest, or if a part of her wants to hurt me back. I'm scared that because of what I did, and that it was over month, that I may have lost her forever. It hurts to think that she wants to move on, relationship-wise, but still stay friends, and she is mad at me for the times that I said that for my own mental health, that I just cannot do that if she moves on. I know that I am being selfish, because a part of me thinks that if her love and our marriage was strong before, she would forgive me and work on our marriage together, plus go to counseling.

DG, what happened is that your wife fell out of love. Your language in this paragraph is very manipulative and I would caution you against using it against your wife. It will make the situation worse. Your marriage was not strong. She was not in love. You were right when you said that you felt she loved you but was not in love. That is because you weren't meeting her needs. That is understandable because you were ill. Also, If she had 2 emotional affairs, that would be a contributing factor. Separating from her would have been very destructive to your marriage.

You can turn this around by working to make her fall in love again. People fall in love according to how well their needs are met and you have a chance to do that.

I would strongly caution you against going to marriage counseling, though, because marriage counselors are little more than divorce facilitators. They have no idea how to save a marriage. Most don't believe in romantic love.

I would start first by sending her a love letter, apologizing for your past behavior and asking for another chance. You will have to fight for her if you want her back.

I would write her a letter and post it here so we can give you feedback. Here are some sample letters, just write it to suit your situation:

Dear WW,

I apologize to you for my part in creating an environment that helped make your affair with Sally possible. I understand that I did not do a good job of making you happy. I know the mistakes I made and we are now suffering from that.

You told me earlier that you do not want our marriage back. I agree with you. I don't want that old marriage back. I am not willing to remain in a loveless, unfulfilling marriage either. But I do know a way that we can turn that around if we are both willing. I would be willing to try under certain conditions. I know others who have turned marriages much worse than this into romantic, happy, fulfilling marriages. That is what I want.

And wouldn't the ideal solution be for us to be in love again? That would be my ideal. I want you to know I have a plan to turn this around if you are willing.

In the meantime, I have given much thought to our separation agreement and have decided against it. I can't think of any good reason to leave my home so I won't be going anywhere on Friday. I will cooperate with any plans that are good for our marriage, but not with a separation.

I want us to be able to rebuild our marriage someday. We need to build a new lifestyle in which everything we do makes us both happy. I want to be your best friend, someone who is always there for you when you need me. And I want you as my best friend.

All my love, tbs

Dear Husband,
I apologize to you for my part in creating an environment that has made our marriage so unhappy. I know that my demands have made you unhappy and I am committed to change.

I want us to have a happy fulfilling marriage but I do not believe that can happen until you address and resolve your angry outbursts. It causes me immense stress when my complaints are not addressed or they are addressed with anger.

The situation with your ex-wife has caused me enormous pain and suffering. I am asking that you cut off all contact with your ex-wife and get visitation rights with your children that can include me. It concerns me terribly when you go to her home and I cannot continue to live like that.

In the meantime, I don't feel safe living together under these circumstances and would like to separate. If you would resolve your anger, resolve the visitation issue to my satisfaction and go through a marriage recovery program, I would consider reconciliation. Until that happens, I will have to separate from you and maintain contact via email and phone calls.

I want us to be able to rebuild our marriage someday. We need to build a new lifestyle in which everything we do makes us both happy. I want to be your best friend, someone who is always there for you when you need me. And I want you as my best friend.

All my love,

Did you listen to the radio clips in here?

]
This is very repellent and won't inspire her to work on your marriage. If your "love and marriage" was strong before you wouldn't be separated in the first place. Your damaged marriage is not a reason for her to "forgive" you OR go to counseling.

She will want to work on the marriage if you give her a good reason to do so. Such as a commitment to create a happy, romantic marriage. Guilt manipulation and a pretense that your marriage was "strong" will backfire on you.

She claims that she was in love with me at the time I initiated the separation, but that she is not in love with me now. Just nine months ago, we were making plans for the future. I also think that because of the I treated her over the past month, her friends are influencing her, but I cannot be certain.

I wrote a three page letter, but she ignored it. I don't think that she will read another one that I write at this time. The only thing that she is agreeing with is the counseling, and I think that she needs to hear from a professional about how my PTSD played a factor and that I was in crisis.

I'm not trying to manipulate her. It is difficult to talk when feeling desperation. I did tell her that I wanted to rebuild our marriage and create a stronger one. However, if she decides against reconciliation and we continue to live in the same house and she starts dating other men, it is going to kill me. I don't know if I have the strength to fight for our marriage under those circumstances. I truly want to save it, but I am still dealing with random bouts of depression, insomnia, and irritability. That situation might be too much. My disability allotment is not enough for me to move out anyway, so I am fearing that a lot of suffering is coming my way.

I am so damn ashamed that I caused this, and I am paying dearly for it.

I am going to listen to the clips in a few. She left to go watch a movie with her girlfriend, and I am now using my laptop.

That will be a disaster. She doesn't need to hear about your PTSD, she needs to hear about what you will do to create a happy, romantic marriage. Reminding her of your past problems will only push her away. That is not a smart strategy.

Pandering sympathy will not attract her; it will repel her.

If you want to save your marriage, you need to focus on being pleasant and attracting her back. What will you do FOR HER? Will you love her and cherish and devote your life to making her happy? Talk of PTSD and the bad times won't help you.,


Your comment was very manipulative. I would drop that kind of language entirely.

Do you want help or not? I don't think you have good instincts about all this and if you are not here to listen to advice, I will move on.

What was in your three page letter? Can you post it?

I'm sorry, I am just down and exhausted. I do want help. I'm just trying to give as much information as possible.

Here is the letter. The 1st line, "As I write this letter, I don't know if I will give it (the letter) to you." This was because I was writing it for therapeutic purposes because I am trying not to badger her about the separation and my desire to reconcile. Much of it was rambling. I was just writing thoughts; pouring myself out, so to speak. It was three pages because it was handwritten.

Dear ****,

As I write this letter, I don't know if I will give it to you. I know that you want me to stop talking to you about us, and what I have done. I am trying to respect your wishes. I admit that it isn't easy. After a month of hell, for the both of us, I know that we are both emotional.

You keep asking me what changed my mind. You did, ****. As I spent time alone, or trying to be alone, wondering why I was doing what I was doing, I found myself missing you, terribly. I know that it is difficult for you to understand the internal things that I have been going through. I didn't understand them myself. I was trying to rationalize things, and I hurt you in the process. For this, I feel deep regret and I feel sick about it. Even through these darkest of days, I honestly was trying to find my way back to you, as well as a way back to myself, for I was feeling lost.

For a time, as I had been telling you, I felt like I had become a burden to you and our family. I went from being able to help with the shop, transporting (my son, her stepson,) taking care of (our son,) our yard and house; to being with you as I was everyday, to not being able to do any of those things. I felt horrible about it. Hopeless. I did for a time, wish that I had died. I am utterly sorry that I put that on you. I was not myself.

While I pressed through the last few weeks, bouncing between moments of high energy, exhaustion, numbness, and sadness, I never stopped thinking about you and us. I know that what I did upset you and made you cry. I was also suffering. I bowed my head and cried at the (concert,) and later told (my friend) that it was a (medication) reaction. I didn't know how to come back to you while I was going through this.

I ended up lashing out and saying those terrible things. I know that you are unsure if you can believe me, or even trust me now, though it is the truth that I didn't mean those things. I know that they hurt and cannot be unspoken. I am just hoping that your hurt dissipates, and that you can forgive me.

The month sleeping apart was a self-induced wake-up call that I indeed have internal issues as a result of the accident, and possibly the sepsis. I hope that you can find it in your heart to give us another chance. We have been through so much, and we always stayed on top of it all, against all odds. I know that we can do it again.

I cannot thank you enough for agreeing to go to marriage counseling. I appreciate it very much. I know that you think that I don't appreciate you. That cannot be further from the truth. I do appreciate you, ****, everything about you, and everything that you do. It was difficult for me to both remember and see that while I dealt with the aftermath of what happened. Things were cloudy for me, and the physical pain, the mental and emotional stress, everything became unbearably cloudy.

Reflecting on these things during the last few weeks, and hearing you reminded me of these things, while getting me to see how much I hurt you, has helped me to snap out of it. I know that I will need help while the old me continues to come back.

I do not like this version of myself. I am ashamed and feel guilt for the things that I said. It isn't who I am. ****, please know that I truly love you, and would never have done these things if my head was on straight.

I miss being with you. Sleeping next to you with my arm around you. I miss listening to your voice when you come home, or when we talk to each other on the phone. I am guilty of taking you for granted. I complained about going to the store all of the time. The truth is, I am missing our little trips. We always talked and never ran out of things to say. I miss you would reach over and hold my hand. I miss the kiss goodnight. Our daily hugs. Staring into your eyes... There was intimacy, yet I was blind to it. I am so sorry.

I want my (petname) wife, and I want to be your (petname) again. I want to hear your ****isms. I want us to raise (our son) together. I want to be not just the husband that I was, but a better one. We love each other. I have faith in us that we can build a better, stronger relationship and marriage.

I know that you need time. It is my hope that with forgiveness, patience, counseling, and love, we find our way back into each other's arms again. I suggested trying to save our marriage because I know we love each other, and I saw through the fog and want you in my life.

We have been married for almost 5 years, together for almost 7. I hope with all of my soul that the accident was not the death knell for our marriage. I would view that as a sorrowful tragedy. I know that together, we can overcome this.

I promise to do what it takes, and I ask the same. You have been telling me things that I needed to hear. I cannot change if I don't know what may be bothering you (this is because she brought some things up I wasn't aware of that stressed her out.)

I love you, ****. You are my (petname.) I regret being a total (expletive.) I am better than that, and I am focusing.

Love,

DamagedGuy (Your petname)

DG, that is a darn good letter! It is very positive and hopeful. I was concerned you had sent her a negative letter asking for sympathy.

What I would suggest is that you focus on winning her back. Don't bring up PTSD, illnesses, or anything negative, but do your best to present a very attractive front while you fight her affair.

When she brings up the "vow" thing, tell her that was crazy talk on your part and remind her you are still married and if she dates anyone it will be considered infidelity. You need to RUN OFF any man that she has anything to do with.

Are you able to hold down a job? Are you working?

Thank you, MelodyLane. She hasn't read the letter, and I'm not sure that she is going to. She said that she saw it on the table, and ignored it. If I tell her that seeing someone else is technically infidelity, she will become more angry as she doesn't see it that way, and I'm sure that her friends and family who support her won't see it that way either. She will also accuse me of trying to manipulate her. I agree with on this, I just don't know how to tell her this.

Plus, I still don't know how I will deal with the pain of who moving on so quickly with someone else. Even dating will make me a wreck, because I will assume that sex will follow. I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around it. She did say she wanted to date; past tense. I don't know if forgiving me an accepting my temporary insanity will be enough for her to reconcile. My gut tells me that she wants to see if the grass is greener.

I cannot work at this time. I can't stand for hours and my walking is limited, and I have chronic pain in my leg and knee which painkillers don't touch, and back pain. Even sitting in certain chairs is difficult right now. All of the jobs that I ever had involved me being on my feet and being active. I am on disability.

So give her the letter and ask her to read it. She may not have a positive response right now but it will plan seeds.


Our goal is to help you save your marriage, not to avoid making her angry. A married woman going out wiht men is INFIDELITY. If she sleeps with the man, it is considered ADULTERY in every court in this land.

It's ok if she doesn't see it that way, the point is that you make it clear it is infidelity and that you will fight for your marriage. She is your wife and dating other men is extremely hurtful.


I would focus on finding an occupation that you can do. There are things you can do and you need to find them. Not working is a life wrecker. Sitting at home on painkillers will ruin your life. It will cause severe depression which will lead to the end of your marriage.

]
Anyone who encourages a married woman to commit infidelity is not her "friend." And you should not care one whit about their opinions. After all, it is not their ox getting gored.

I will try to give her the letter. I will strongly consider telling her that sleeping with another man is infidelity. If I do, I will tell her that I will still fight for us, as difficult it will be to see her with someone else.

I just thought of something. If she dates (and has an affair,) plus with all of the hours she has to spend at the shop and the extra running around to do it, she is barely going to see our son. It is messed up.

There is a program that can help me find work. I told he about when we went out to eat.

No, don't tell her it is "difficult" to see her with someone else, tell her you won't tolerate it. Don't be complacent. If someone is dating your wife, you need to confront him and run him off. Complacence reflects a lack of caring. It is your job to run off any RAT who comes sniffing around.


It is best for your son to be with you more if she is going to commit adultery. You don't want your son exposed to that.


That's great!

How old is your son?

I won't tell her that it will be difficult. Right now, I have no way of knowing who it is that asked her out, if she goes to see him or anyone else, or if they sleep together.

Because of everything that has happened, what has been said, and what she has told others, I fear that telling her that I won't tolerate it and try to find the guy and chase him off will make it look like I am controlling and crazy, even though I want to do these things.

While on disability, I can be around my son during most of his waking hours. Another issue is that she often talks about wanting to be a good mother, and to be around our son, but she often watches TV in her room, and since the separation, has been going out with her new best girlfriend, who has no children and is 14 years younger than my wife (and I suspect to be a bad influence.)

Today at dinner, my wife said that she doesn't want to get in the way of his nurses (he was born at 24 weeks and has a trach, and is 18 months old. He is doing very well.) I told her that she should never worry about that, that the nurses have to work around us. This isn't to say that she never spends time with him, but she definitely could spend more time with him.

I think that since I am staying in the house, and if she has an affair, she will become guilt ridden for being selfish choosing choosing an affair over our son. Or at least, I hope that someone in her life points out to her what she is doing.

You have this backwards. She would be "controlling' you if she forced you to tolerate such disgraceful, hurtful behavior. That is like the wifebeater telling his wife she is "controlling" because she is telling him to stop beating her.

Asking you to endure infidelity is very controlling. Asking her to stop is NOT.

When your wife wakes up from her fog, she will appreciate that you fought for her. Complacence about infidelity does not reflect wisdom or stability, but a lack of caring. A caring spouse wouldn't sit there like a stump.

I want to add that any man who would date a married woman is a dirtball. A dirtball is easily run off. There aren't many decent men who would be interested in dating a married woman who lives with her husband and 18 month old child.

I agree with you. She just won't see it that way. We sleep in separate bedrooms. The house use to be a duplex and she is in the other half. However, there is no kitchen on that side, since we took it out. She thinks that I am going to put one in when I get my personal injury money, and I will refuse to do it. So we share a kitchen, though she avoids it when she can, and she occasionally sits in my living room. All she is focusing on is that I initiated the separation. The releasing of the vows comment wasn't brought up by her until she decided that she might date.

I feel that she is entering a have her cake and eat it too situation. If she starts sleeping with another man, she will do it at his place, with the only way of me knowing its happening is that our car will be gone all night.

The only way to delay her (and infuriate her and make her loathe me) is that I could take the car away since it is in my name, but she needs it to run our shop and take our son to appointments (I can't drive yet.) That would seem very controlling, however, and probably create all sorts of problems if she sued for a divorce.

Thats fine if she doesn't see it that way. You don't need her to agree with you. But the fact is that she is a married woman and she is not "dating," but committing infidelity. You need to be very clear that you won't tolerate it.

I agree it is not a good idea to take her car away.

I can tell her that I won't tolerate it, but she won't care and she will do it anyway, if she is going to. I don't know how to get past the pain to try to to a Plan A if she tells me it is over and she is having an affair. Even though we are married and not even legally separated, she would view the relationship as done if she starts sleeping with another man.

And then you can confront the man and cause him as much trouble as possible. Just let her know you will do whatever you can bust up her affair. What you should not do is act complacent.


She might also view herself as the queen of England but it does not mean it is true. Your marriage is not over until you are legally divorced.

I agree and want to do this, but people will think, after separating and saying the things I said, that I'm being a controlling freak. She said that the people in her life, as well as her, are wondering why I flip-flopped. It is almost as though they think I have some nefarious agenda, rather than recognizing my mistake and wanting to get my marriage back on track.

She left almost five hours ago and hasn't returned. She left angry. I will try to save our marriage, but something is telling me that she is done. I just couldn't keep my mouth shut about asking her not to date and give us some time.

But those other people do not have to live your life, do they? We are not asking you to do things to gain the approval of crapwits, but to do the things that will help your marriage.


I have never known of a caring husband who would keep his mouth shut when his wife was going on a date. that really sounds insane. Her reaction does not mean it was the wrong thing to do.

She was going with her girlfriend, and showed me the text from her asking if she wanted to go to the movies, because I became insecure. It was after that, that I asked her to not date and give us some time, and that is when she got angry and stormed out. She has never been this angry with me before, for this period of time.

I wish that I could go back to last month and stop myself from doing what I did. My heart aches at the thought that my marriage may not be salvageable, despite my best (right now worst) efforts.

I don't know when she came home. The car was back at 8:30 this morning when I got up, briefly. I haven't been sleeping well, so I went back to bed and got up at 11:30. She was not here, it looks like she went for a walk with the nurse and our son.

I checked the VAR, and there was no talking. I forgot to check the
time where it picked up sound from her going to bed, which would give me an idea when she came home. The batteries are at half charge and I don't have time to charge them, so I just put it back and I'm hoping for the best.

She sent me a text asking me if I was up. I replied "yes." She then text that they were on their way back. I said "ok. I don't know why she is bothering with communication like that if she wants out.

I was going to add this to my above post, but couldn't:

I don't know when she came home. The car was back at 8:30 this morning when I got up, briefly. I haven't been sleeping well, so I went back to bed and got up at 11:30. She was not here, it looks like she went for a walk with the nurse and our son.

I checked the VAR, and there was no talking. I forgot to check the
time where it picked up sound from her going to bed, which would give me an idea when she came home. The batteries are at half charge and I don't have time to charge them, so I just put it back and I'm hoping for the best.

She sent me a text asking me if I was up. I replied "yes." She then text that they were on their way back. I said "ok. I don't know why she is bothering with communication like that if she wants out.

EDIT: She is being friendly. I told her that I'm not putting a kitchen in her side of the house. It said that we already have a kitchen. I asked her how she felt about that. She it depends on what happens with our marriage; whether or not It can be fixed. I,said of we could talk briefly so that I could follow MelodyLane's advice.

I asked her if she wanted me to leave if we couldn't be fixed and she said no. I asked if thought that it would be healthy for me if I stayed ans said her dating others, and she said no.

I then said that I'm not giving up and that I'm fighting for us, no matter what. I then told her that we are not separated or divorced and that either one of us seeing other people infidelity, and asked if she really wanted to commit that, and she said no.

She began yelling at me. I told her that everything that I said was crazy talk and why (just briefly.) I said that because she said she was confused and didn't know what she wants. I said that I wanted to put all our stuff back to where it was, and she said no because she doesn't know what is going to happen.

I said that people need to stop influencing the break up. She didn't respond, but I assume that her friends are telling her that I am a jerk and,thay she should see other people.

She agreed to read the letter, but asked me to stop talking about us, which I am going to do.

Thats good! Now, you just need to do your best to be attractive. Look for opportunities to meet her needs and avoid any lovebusters. Are you familiar with the MB program? Have you been reading the material here? basic concepts

How is your appearance?

I wanted to point out that being "separated" is not the same as not being married. Oddly, some people believe that it is, but it is not. As such, younger ppl come on here quite often and report that one spouse pronounces themselves "separated," move into the guest room and then start dating! Calling oneself "separated" is not an entitlement to commit infidelity.

Dating other people while married is infidelity, period.

Thank you, MelodyLane. I have been. Reading the material. I'm trying to find things that will meet her needs. She is stretched thin and angry, and wants to see where counseling goes. I am cautious about the counseling, and will find a new one if I need to. People are saying a lot of positive things about this counselor.

While she was out, I took care of her laundry for her. Other than the stressful relationship talks, I am trying to have good, productive conversation with her. Before the separation, other than life stress, we got along great. I'm going to try to get is,to go on our store trips again, and point out things that she likes, and try to get us out to eat.

My appearance is good, I think. I keep my beard tidy, and my cheeks clean-shaven. I keep my hair buzzed short, because it is thin. I lost a lot of weigbt, and am beginning to exercise. My posture is good when my back pain isn't present. I'm trying to smile as much as is reasonable.

You should focus on meeting the needs of conversation and affection.

If the counseling is bad, the damage will be much greater than "finding a new one," the damage will be done. Marriage counselors are destructive to marriage and you are more likely than not to find yourself divorced. Marriage counseling has an 84% failure rate and MC's have a higher personal divorce rate than the general population.

Does this MC have a PLAN to restore your marriage? If so, what is the plan? Will she persuade your wife to follow a plan to create a romantic marriage?

OR will you sit in a room together and air past grievances and further deplete your already drained lovebanks?

The advice we give you here comes from Dr. Bill Harley, clinical psychologist and founder of Marriage Builders. He started Marriage Builders and developed this plan when he discovered how desrtuctive marriage counselors are to marriages.

Should I tell her about marriage builders? It seems that to my wife, marriage counseling is the only make it or break it option right now.

The counselor covers other types of counseling.
***EDIT***

We are grilling burgers later add a family. I put together the fairy garden that I made for her a couple of years ago. Should I tell her that I love her? Because I do.

I should also add that I will remain calm if we go to MC, and not argue, or attack her, or yell back if she tells at me.

To add to my above post:

She has a new diary that she is not hiding. I didn't have a chance to look through it all, but the entry from yesterday does not discuss another man, she discusses that I want to get back together, that she has had an intimacy problem for a while, and that I haven't turned her on as much as I used to in a while, and she doesn't know what changed.

She writes that she doesn't know if it is an excuse to get out of a marriage that she doesn't want to be in, or what. She says that she doesn't know why she is having such a hard time getting over this, or why she agreed to counseling. She writes asking why are,just doesn't split and leave or ask me to. She says that she has lost much of herself, and wants what is best for our family, whatever that is.

I'm still wondering about telling her about MB. I just want my wife back and my family intact, and to get help for our issues, both as a couple, and personal issues.

We had a good day as a family. She grilled burgers, we all watched TV together. I just don't know where she is at with her feelinhs, thoughts on reconciling, or dating someone else.

I don't know how to show her that I am truly sorry and that our marriage is worth saving.

I know that I keep posting, but I don't know what else to do.

We are texting. She asked where the concert is at today, which made me feel paranoid that she is trying to determine how much free time she will have after work. The VAR has not picked up any conversations, so it is all text and Facebook via her phone, which I have no access to, unless she forgets to take the phone.

Communication in person and via text is occurring rather normally. But the asking me about the concert location triggered more stupid stuff on my part. I am a smart man, but I am dealing with this like a fool.

I told her that I felt guilt, because when I went to the last two shows, she said that she perceived that I was happier since the separation. She said not to, and to go and have fun.

I tried ending the conversation by telling her that I am trying to give her space, find an IC to deal with my trauma related issues, and for her to have a good day. She replied that she is trying also. I said that I didn't know what that meant, but that I have hope and faith. She said she is trying to understand where I was coming from with the split, and let me express my feelings. She said that she is guarded right now, and that when I go on, it makes her anxious and smothered.

I replied that that was the last thing I want to do, and that she has every right to feel guarded after what I did, and that I understood. I said I will keep trying to give her some space while I also work on myself.

With that said, things seem fine when we are together, as long as I can keep the talk about the issues in check.

DG, what are these "trauma related issues?" I am very concerned about the message you are sending her, because going off to "counseling" when your marriage is crippled seems like a needless distraction at a time when you should be focused on your marriage. I can understand getting help for depression and rehabilitation for work, but what is this "trauma?" Do you think bringing that up to her is attractive in the least? It looks like you are chasng a lot of rabbits.

Secondly, "space" is the worst thing you can do for your marriage. Too much "space" is part of the problem since it contributes to the emotional detachment.

I am not sure you need our help here since it appears you are following your own "plan."

My mind has been all over the place since the accident. Sleep issues, apetite, detachment... My wife said she didn't know who I was anymore. She told people during the month I separated from her, is that she wanted the old me back.

I was hurt and confused and missed her. I felt guilt for what I did and for being disabled. I started researching my symptoms and knew that I didn't really want to be separated, and that's when I went to her to reconcile and seek help.

When I say space, I mean talking about the separation, reconciling, and my issues. I am trying to be with her as much as possible.

You've got to get a handle on your feelings and emotions. Can you be the guy who first attracted her? The guy she feel in love with? You have to be that guy.

You're not going to win her by trying to get sympathy over your accident. Or by offering her 'space' or by trying to get her into counseling.

Your only option is to present yourself as the best option for her. Can you charm her? Woo her? Be attractive and appealing? Confident and reassuring?

It may be that you cannot, based on the traumatic injury you've sustained. Think about whether you're up to the task of winning her back or not. If you can't get a handle on your insecurities and neediness, you're not going to make it.

I understand that I am my own worst enemy. I'm working hard to get it under control.

It is difficult because she told me about the man asking her out for coffee. She sent me a text saying she might stay the night at a girlfriend's house, and I replied that I'm trying not to be nervous or jealous, but I'm failing, obviously.

She made other arrangements where she will come home, but have to sit for two hours a the garage while the car is repaired. I told her that I'm not going to let my insecurities control me or anyone else, anymore. But she is angry.

Right now, I just don't know what to do or say in these, she is going to be gone overnight, situations.

Any normal person would be very concerned and alarmed if their spouse spent the night away. I am not sure why you imagine that is "insecure." Especially in light of the fact that your wife has already told you she is intending on committing infidelity.

Are you trying to act like it is NORMAL for a spouse to spend the night away from home? WHY?

If she is going to spend the night away, you have every right to know why and where and with whom. You have every reason to be very ALARMED. Who is she with?

She text that she will coming home, and not to try to talk to her when I get home. She was angry. She has never been angry with me like she has been, lately. When I came home it was late, but I saw her purse in the chair, and was gone whe, I got up, so I know she came home.

She sends me texts to let me know what is going on, such as that she is going out to dinner either her brother and stepmother on Friday. I don't know why she would bother if she plans on maintaining the separation.

I'm under so much stress. I'm having nightmares about her being hurtfully angry, which I deserve after what I did. I also had a dream where she was actually in a new relationship. Those wake me up and I feel anxious and awful.

I'm going to try to avoid relationship talk, which is difficult, though I am trying. I'm trying to meet emotional needs, though she is distant. I'm scared that I blew it with her, but I still retain some hope. I'm reading what I can on the site and trying to focus.

I talked to my mom, who called my wife last night. My wife told her that when she told me about staying at her girlfriend's to be closer to the garage (girlfriend was going to give her a ride,) that it seemed to upset me, so she made other arrangements, so that she would be home. My mom said that I'm feeling paranoid, because I really want to work on our marriage. She said that she knows.

Because of our time apart with the shop, I sent her texts asking how I could make her day better, and she said she appreciated what I am trying to do, but she is sitting there and I really couldn't do anything. I said that I deeply regret hurting her, that I care about her, that she means the world to me, and that I am here for her. I said I'm not wan5ing to talk about anything that she doesn't want to talk about right now, and that I just wanted to tell her that. She replied with "okay," and I sent a smile face, and left it alone.

With that, I am very sincere, and am trying to meet her emotional needs. I'm worried about trying, because she is distant and angry. I want her to be happy.

There hasn't been any communication all day, and I don't want to push her. I still have just the one VAR, and I'm thinking of putting it in the car tonight. It will be risky, especially if she is telling the truth about going to the garage. I'm afraid of it being discovered.

We kept the appointment for counseling, because that is what she is agreeing to. The batteries last for about 20-24 hours, so she should be back while it is still running. I don't know if I will have a chance to review before the appointment.

So all I know for sure is that she contacted a married man who she previously dated, and met him at least twice. She claims that a man asked her out for coffee and she answered, "I don't know." She won't tell me if she will wait to date, to see if we can fix us. She uses words like "we," "us," and "our(s)." I'm trying to meet her EN's as I can, right now through kind words and actions. I don't know what else to do.

I am feeling a little better today, but still down, and scared.

Does your mother understand that you are not paranoid? I guarantee you if I went and told my husband I was spending the night "with a girlfriend" he would be VERY ALARMED and it would not go over well. My H is not "paranoid" or "insecure." He is a normal healthy person who knows it is WRONG for a married person to spend the night with a friend.

And I have not had any emotional affairs and I am not chasing married men like your wife. So I would ask that you and your mother stop this inappropriate talk about "paranoia" and "insecurity." You are having a normal reaction to an alarming reaction.


It seems pretty obvious she is having an affair with someone so I would snoop like crazy and find out who and what she is doing.

That is wonderful. A married woman talking about dating a married man. This is why you need to find out WHO.


Please stop calling this "dating." That is not "dating," it is infidelity. And it is disgraceful. Ask her to not commit infidelity.

I'm trying to reach her on not having an affair, but she doesn't see it that way. I wish I could change her mind, but she is in the "my husband said lets separate and he released me from my vows" crap that I will never forgive myself for saying.

Unless the VAR picks up something, she forgets her phone, or she leaves her facebook logged on on her laptop, I may never find out her asked her out, if she has anything to do with married guy, or if she is actually sleeping with anyone.

She sends me texts about where she is going or what plans are (if they are true,) and decided to come home because of my reservations. I'm wanting to ask her what she is feeling, does she want to fix our marriage with me, and what she is hoping to get out of counseling. I also want to say that I hope that our son can grow up in an intact family. But I don't know if any of that will be detrimental.

That is cute and winsome so you need to find out if that married man's wife feels the same way. It doesn't matter if your W sees it that way, what matters is reality. She knows she is a married woman. You can chant "I break my vows" until the cows come home, she will still be a married woman. You need to remind her of that when she discusses committing infidelity. .


Your job is to find out who and what and where so I would not give up so easily. This married man's wife would be very happy to hear about this relationship.

I have to confirm if she is involved with the married guy. They may have actually just talked, which is still inappropriate. She is not talking to anyone on the phone when she is alone in her room. If she was involved with someone, I would think that they would talk over the phone, especially when I'm not at home. That is why I think that the car is the best bet, as she will either use speaker phone, or voice to text.

I can't access anything right now. I might try a phone GPS solution, as I have a spare android phone here. There is no guarantee that a GPS will help, as we have one vehicle right now, and I can't drive yet.

Should I avoid asking her the questions from the above post? Should I just have normal conversation? She will be home soon. I am hoping that she finds it in her to open her heart to me again. What I said to her is a betrayal, no matter what state of mind I was in.

I wouldnt ask any of this.


That is a good question since counseling is destructive.


Don't say that.

Ugh too late. I did mention these things. I asked her how I could win her heart again and she said that she didn't know if I could. She said that maybe She hopes for understanding on why I was going through crisis and being stupid.

She admitted that she is texting the guy that asked her out, that it is "how is your day" type stuff. She is adamant that she isn't seeing or sleeping with anyone. I said that communicating with him is influencing her decision, and compromising counseling.

I know that MC can be destructive, though I read an article by Dr.Harley that indicated some are good.

I am trying to keep faith, but it is difficult because I think that she is determined to eventually divorce, because she wasn't happy, under too much stress plus what was added by the accident and my depression, and that I hurt her with the separation nonsense.

I reminded her that it was crisis talk, and that we are married. I don't think that she cares.

Dr Harley is the one who has said for years that most are destructive. I wish you the best..

I don't know what else I can do to save my marriage without evidence of an affair, and other than trying to meet EN's and avoid Love Busters.

She sat down and opened up a bit. I listened, and also talked. She read an article from the counselor that we are seeing that talks about mothers that are stretched thin, which is exactly how she is feeling with all of the stress.

She says that she feels chipped away at because of was a lot worse off in the first couple of months after the accident, when I was in major pain, depressed, and on a lot of painkillers and other medication. Then I pulled the separation thing. I really put her through it. I feel terrible, and it cannot be taken back. She says she doesn't know how she feels anymore.

Her tone does seem a bit better. She seems more positive about the counseling. I hope it isn't destructive. I hope that my DW gets an understanding of what I was going through and can forgive me, and allow us to rebuild our marriage.

She is going to bed. I am going to stay up for a couple of hours and try to hide the VAR. I'm very worried about it being discovered, or picking up something awful, as I feel more optimistic and less pained after our last conversation.

I hid the VAR in the car. We just texted a bit and there is no indication of discovery. While I don't know who the OM is yet, I am trying to be in Plan A.

I'm trying to reverse the "I don't know if I feel the same way" situation. I think that she is feeling selfish right now, due t9 what I did and the thought being with someone else would be fresh, ne2lw, and maybe emotionally safe. She is not thinking about our marriage, the love we had or have, or our family. Because of our talks last night and her willingness to see what happens with MC tells me that she isn't completely checked out.

I did listen to some of them. I'm going to be vigilant when we see the counselor. I also hope that I find a chance to review the VAR before we go.

Have you figured out a way to get spyware on her phone? Or can you hire a PI? That will be the fastest way to get your Intel.

Without having the phone in my hands, I can't to anything with it. She takes it everywhere.

She is adamant that she isn't forming a relationship. I cannot detect any deceit, though I can't be completely sure. The car VAR did not pick up anything showing guilt.

Here is the MC report:

This counselor is very down to earth while being matter of fact. She is pro-marriage. While she said that we both have personal stuff to work out in addition to our issues as a married couple. She looked directly at my wife and asked her not to make any rash decisions for at least 6 months, to determine either way what is best.

She told my wife that my trauma is more than likely why I was acting the way that I was, especially given how I was before the accident, and how I'm fighting for our marriage now.

I mentioned the guy that asked her out and who she is texting. Counselor straight up told her that she is developing and EA and entering the slippery slope to infidelity. She asked her to cease all communication with OM since it will be detrimental, either way, to continue to be in contact.

Counselor seems to want to help us save our marriage. She said that since we have known each other for most of our lives, been married for almost 5, and been together for almost 7, and have a preemie son and a nice family, it would be a shame to throw it all away. This was after my wife said that she wasn't sure if she wanted to stay married to me.

She is trying to put us in Plan A. No talking about counseling, our issues, or the marriage for now. Just be around each other doing things like we would have been like a family, and being friendly with each other.

I think this counselor is psychic. She told my wife that if we divorce, friendship is not likely possibly for at least 2 years after, because of the pain that it will cause.

She said to journal and write down feelings to avoid communicating about the relationship since I am having trouble. When we left, my wife said that she really likes the counselor, and I agreed. It was an hour drive there and back. We ate at a diner on the way, and went shopping at a store before the appointment. We had good conversation like we did when all was well with us.

Has she stopped texting the OM?

That I cannot know without access to the phone. I really wish that I could know. Since the VAR didn't pick up anything in her room, I'm keeping it in the car for now.

She keeps saying "I don't know that I want to be in this marriage," instead of saying "I do not want to be in this marriage."

I think you should contact Dr Harley.

First, this M falls under the category of "affairage". You start your M while you were both still legally married, she has had past affairs, she is behaving this way now, and apparently she doesn't think it's a problem to date a married man(forget being married herself)...so it is going to be a real challenge to change the way she views marriage and IB overall, even if you end this affair. Dr Harley has said he has a very low success rate of fixing these marriages, so your best bet would be to get advice directly from him.

Second, since you are ignoring us about the counseling advice, it would be best for you to have Dr Harley advise you where to go from here. Every time we see BS's come here and want the counselor to help them "defog" a wayward, it never works out. I personally don't really want to help a couple on the SAA forum that is using a counselor because it usually derails any of our efforts and I see one of our best posters, MelodyLane, has abandoned this thread for that reason.

Please make sure if you write him on the radio show to be forthcoming about the way your M started, your WW's past affairs, and that you are using a counselor currently in order to get the best help from him.

Email your questions to Joyce Harley at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com. When your email question is chosen to be answered on the radio show, you will be notified by email directing you to listen to the rebroadcast. If you would like to consider being a caller, include your telephone number. You will be called by us to explain the procedure to you. Every caller will receive a complementary book by Dr. Harley that addresses their question.

I will do that. She agreed to the MC before I started posting here, and she wasn't open to anything else. I was at a loss as to what to do. The MC accepts our insurance, and I could not afford at this time to set up the phone counseling with Dr. Harley.

I'm also hurt and confused and doing the best that I can possibly do each day. I'm still dealing with my accident issues, plus the fact that I did what I did, hurt my wife, and our marriage is on the line. I know that she moved on from her previous marriage quickly. I was legally separated from a toxic serial cheater who put the lives of me and my son at risk. I divorced when the opportunity arose because of a free uncontested divorce clinic.

I sent the email. I'm still trying to follow what suggestions as I can. I'm just hurt and scared..

Great, let us know when you hear back from Dr. Harley.

I will be sure to do so.

Damaged,

SusieQ pretty much nailed it - best course for you is to consult with Dr. Harley. I sympathize with your health situation from the accident. However, that should not prevent you from firing your MC and consulting with Harley with full disclosure of your situation, including the fact that your M is based on adultery.

Tom

I found out that my wife was sexting an OM. They also met and kissed last night, after MC suggested that she cut off contact with OM. I know it doesn't mean much, but she swears that they have seen each other in person twice, that sexting (which she admitted to straight off) occurred, and that they kissed last night and it made her feel things that she hasn't felt in a long time.

I figured that I had enough evidence. OM has a girlfriend. I think OM is a scumbag just trying to add my wife to his plate.

I confronted her after she was asleep, because there was no way I was going to be able to sleep. Strangely, a lot of anxiety went away, but I was angrh, yet controlled.

After I got out of her all that I,was going to at that time, I asked her what she wanted. She said that she didn't know. She began weeping. I have never seen her cry that hard. She said that she truly thought that I didn't want her anymore, that I was never coming back, by the time she and OM began talking via Facebook and text.

She said when I approached her to reconcile, she was hurt, angry, and confused. She said that she reached out to OM because she didn't want to be alone. I told her that I don't blame her for that. I believe that I really damaged her, emotionally, and that people will do things like what she did. I have been reading about voice and rebounds after such breakups and pain. It still hurts, but I do understand.

While I don't blame her, I did say it hurt that she felt the need to try to move on so fast. I told her that I was upset that she agreed to MC but saw OM last night.

I asked her what she wanted. While a part of me wants us to heal, work on ourselves, and our marriage, I also felt like throwing in the towel. She kept saying that she didn't know, and that she was emotionally spent. She said she was leaning towards working on the marriage, especially given that I am truly remorseful for hurting her.

I could sleep for only 4 hours. She also slept for 4 hours. I approached her again. I said that if we agree to commit to saving us, that I could not tolerate any contact with any exes, or the OM. She is going to draft something to let OM know that they cannot be in contact and that she is going to work on our marriage. This is a major step for her, because she just ceased communication with OM from past indiscretion.

She feels angry and annoyed with me, which I know can be typical in these situations. While talking about the possibility of rebuilding our marriage, she asked if I could get past what happened with OM. I that it hurts, but with time and help, that I can. I asked her if she could get past what I did, and she said that she doesn't know.

I know that I crushed her, and that it will take time for her to heal from that. I wish that I coukd take it away. She is reluctantly agreeing to the transparency that I want, and that will include her phone. It is going to be rough start.

While a part of me wants to run, I still love her. I know that a part of her still loves me. I think that she feels very torn, and possibly some guilt because she thought she lost me as her husband.
Since she is willing to work on the possibility of recovering from all of this, I am giving it a chance. However, as much as I want us to succeed, it is hard at this time to imagine it.

I know that everyone is against the MC. Right now, my wife is going to see her for IC (and CC if I agree to continue,) no matter what. I will wait to hear from Dr. Harley, but I don't know what else to do in the meantime.

You are wasting your time and ours by following Plan DamagedGuy and coming here and blogging about it. This is not a blogging forum, it is a forum to discuss and implement Marriage Builders concepts. You have done none of that.

You ask "what else" you can do and that would be to stop blogging, stop following your own plan and start following this program. Otherwise you are wasting your time and ours.

Do you have a question about Marriage Builders?

So you finally got the evidence and you squandered it. This is what I am talking about when I say you are following your own plan. You completely squandered your ONLY opportunity to expose the affair with the benefit of surprise. Now she is free to spin the story to others and warn the OM.

I so agree. You've been here long enough to know we told you once you get evidence (which I don't think you tried hard enough to get spyware on her phone like we told you) to expose the affair. We knew she was having an affair and you need to expose it.

So now what are you going to do?

I should have just exposed last night when I had her phone. I have been panicky about all of this. I'm not making good decisions regarding the situation. I have been plagued with fear for the future.

How can I get this back on track? I honestly could not get her phone until I snatched it in the heat of the moment. I heard the evidence and reacted.

When will you be exposing and who is on your exposure list?

Did you read this and listen to the radio clips?

I don't know why I am having a hard time with this. I think she will leave for good if I do this.

I would expose to OM's girlfriend, mutual friends, maybe his relatives. I feel physically ill.

I read the article on serial cheaters, but I did not have a chance to hear the clip.

I'm still debating on trying to save this marriage or not. While trying to avoid talking to her about things, while trying to act like our life is normal, and while I wait for her to draft NC letter to OM, and trying to rid myself of the fear of exposure issues, I just don't know.

Exposing to her family will do nothing. Her immediate friends support her. The OM's mom lives with him and he takes care of her. His gf will probably just leave him. My wife will get more angry than she already is, and will probably not come around at this point.

FIRST, you need to expose the affair. Go read the thread in the link in my signature. You need to get off your butt and get this done before she pre-empts you. Put aside your own FAILED ideas about what works and what doesn't. Your best thinking has led your marriage in the ditch.

Get this done NOW-----> Exposure 101

You can't continue to make strategic mistakes by taking your own advice and get away with it. You got the intel on her affair, so USE IT. We didn't tell you to spy on her jsut for the purpose of being a sick voyeurWe told you to get the intel so you would have a chance at saving your marriage.

Completely squandered opportunities to save your marriage.

FOLLOW THE DAMN ADVICE!!

DM,
Trying to make a decision on whether you want to save this M is entirely your call. In the meantime - "while trying to act like our life is normal," - this is your problem because your life and your M are Not normal or even close to being loving. You can avoid the advice here and out of fear 'try to wait her out', but it won't work, and it hasn't so far. I have to say this. I think the reason for your fear as well as rejecting the advice here is that you have little respect for yourself. She is playing you and treading all over you! While I agree you hurt her by suggesting that she find someone else at the time you were depressed, it does NOT allow her to break her marital vows. That seemed to signal her that it was okay to continue to troll for men as she probably has been doing for years. And, you're fearful of losing her??

Tom

I am hurt and confused and am trying to follow the advice. I did screw up and jump the gun since my evidence does not ID the OM, but I know who he is because I snatched her phone, but I couldn't get get the evidence off of it. But now that I know, we both refer to him by name. I haven't heard from Dr. Harley yet.

I told her that there are two choices. Completely cut off OM and work on us, or I divorce. I can't live like this, any more. I have dignity and I am a man, and I will completely remove myself from her life, unless we talk concerning our son. I will no longer lower myself to being around her if an OM is in the picture, that I will work on self improvement and build a new future without her in my life if necessary.

I didn't let up on it while she sat, looking lost and spaced out.
She said I was the best friend she has ever had, and gave her a child when she never thought it was possible. A bit later, she told OM that that she is separated, and he has a girlfriend. He said that they know those won't last and that they have an attraction, but he supports her decision and what is best. She said contact with him is influencing her decisions, and that she needs to make an honest effort to save marriage and family. I viewed the exchange.

She removed offending parties from her facebook and agreed to letting me check her phone and facebook. It is still annoying her when I do. I want to believe, but obviously can't.

Because of everything that has transpired, I'm hiring an attorney to know what my rights and potential outcomes are concerning custody and divorce ramifications, in case I need to file. This, and evidence IDing OM, and the potential that she truly ended things with OM are causing me to pause on exposure. I have to think about a possible future without her, for both me and my children. That means protecting our living situation, or her moving out with our son. My children are the most important.

Since they are the most important, will you expose to your children?

They are 7 and 2.

Could you read this thread and listen to the radio fragments posted here?

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2779655

These are all EXCUSES not to expose. The affair should be exposed as we told you. It doesn't matter if she "truly ended the affair" because that makes no difference.

ONCE AGAIN, you are following your own advice, the advice of someone who ruined his marriage.

If you refuse to follow the advice, which you have so far, then you are wasting your time and ours on this forum.

here

When will you be exposing and to whom?

I have enough as far as I am concerned, and have had enough torment. I am preparing to expose.

My sister knows people involved, I am asking her to help with my exposure list, and I doing it, hopefully by tonight.

At age 7, your oldest child can understand an affair and should be told.

I am strongly considering it, as he is her stepson, and if there is a divorce, she will have to be phased out of his life.

I say divorce, because she is a serial cheater, and she will need an insurmountable amount of therapy. I am losing the will to fight this.

Friends of OM, his mom, his GF have been told. I posted it on a thread of mine on Facebook, but not my wall. Someone sent a screenshot to my wife.

She texted that she hates me right niw, and that we are done, to file papers.

We had big argument last night. This is the first time we yelled at each other, ever.

Because it seemed hopeless, I laid it all out about what I did, plus her behavior; the lies, and the deceit, and that her two girlfriends aided and abetted her in this. That even if I was removed from the equation, she started getting involved with a man who is in a LTR. That that behavior is dirty, immoral, and that I do not want our son to grow p thinking that acting in that way is acceptable.

I asked her why she does this. She finally stopped shouting back and looked despondent. She then put her face in her hands and began to weep, hard.

She basically realized the gravity of the situation and the pain and damage that others would feel, including her s tree pson, who she would lose. That our family would be shattered and that we would each see our son less. That I would go NC with her.

She said that she became confused, that she still loves me, and was scared. She said that I'm the only one who can hurt her, because I know her more than anyone, and I did hurt her, and that OM was at a distance and couldn't hurt her. She said she didn't want to be this kind of person who would do this, that she wants therapy to figure out why she behaves in this way because she doesn't want to do it again, that she doesn't want to be that kind of mother.

She said that she wants to fully commit to rebuilding our marriage. She is scared because she doesn't know how we can come back from this. I said that we need to learn to heal each other's pain that we caused.

I told our MC that I was,going to expose. She wasn't against it. She did say there was a risk of destroying any chance at reconciliation, but that the logic for trying was sound. She also agreed that I have a right to check on my wife to make sure that there is no infidelity. My wife said it will annoy her that I will check up on her, but that she understands why it must be done.

We have along road ahead. On another forum, it was suggested to contact the OM, kind of like what MelodyLane said about chasing him off.

I have to wait a bit, because OM works for the municipality that my sister lives in, and my sister applied for a variance, and we don't want OM to interfere.

If I didn't investigate, my wife would have been caught, because my sister goes to the one site they went to, and her municipality is practically my back yard with friends and family living there.

We have a journey to undertake...

Are you going to expose?

I did expose, last night. The last two posts are the result of the exposure.

Word is spreading through OM's town. GF has been told. People from our town also know. An employee who got involved in the deceit is going to be sanctioned. I would have fired her, but the business would fail to run, and we would have to shut down. DW's friends who backed her looking for some type of happiness with OM are shocked and are backing off. DW was humiliated, said she hates me and is done, but later broke down and said she still loves me, doesn't want too be the way she has been, and wants to work on the marriage with my conditions to check on her, in place. We need therapy.

DamagedGuy, Dr. Harley and Joyce received your email and have been trying to get back in touch with you via email and phone - they would love to hear back from you and see if they can help.

I received the messages and will try to call back tomorrow. My sleep schedule, or lack thereof, has been all over the place, and plus with the events of the last couple of days...

I do want to get in touch.

Did you tell the OM's GF yourself?

I did via message, along with a bunch of other people as word began to spread. I tried to get her phone number, but was unable to.

I think that my facebook post that I deleted was a miscalculation, a mistake. She is focusing on that today. I had a chance to look at some texts, and people are siding with her. I may be facing a backlash. She is still going to therapy to see if the marriage can be saved.

One person told her to get a lawyer and start journaling.

Hi DamagedGuy, exposure is scary and everyone finds a mixture of positive and negative reactions. But once you have done it you will realise it is the ONLY thing that can damage an affair and give you a chance of saving your marriage. Of course your partner is angry: you have revealled her marriage-wrecking behaviour to friends and family, and now it will be harder for her to continue to pursue it because people will be scrutinising her. Please believe the experienced posters here when they tell you that anger is transient but an affair will permanently destroy your marriage. You take a short-term hit on your lovebank account with her in order to achieve a longer-term goal.

I also experienced many negative responses from people who had the attitude that I shouldn't "wash my dirty linen in public" after exposure. However, I knew for sure that the embarrassment my WH was demonstrating through his anger was the strongest incentive for him to distance himself from OW. He didn't care about my hurt and pain, but he definitely cared that his work colleagues suddenly knew what their boss had been doing!! Embarrassment and public scrutiny are very strong motivators for behaviour change. Exposure helps you use those tools to save your marriage. Make sure if you speak to anyone about it that you explain you are doing it because you want to save your marriage and prevent your wife from destroying it, not because you want to hurt or punish your wife in any way. No one can fault that motivation even if they disagree with your approach (which of course some people will).

Didn't you just post it in a thread on Facebook? Did you actually send a personally message to OM's GF?

Thank you, chalkncheese. It is a bit scary, and people who are judging me do not have all of the facts. I'm truly worried how this could affect custody if she decides to divorce. Some people think that I am acting unstable because of the Facebook post. It was a post within another post I had made, which basically read that, unfortunately my wife is having an affair with OM, and provided a link to his page.


I personally sent a message to the GF. I sent a follow-up to make sure that she received it, and she replied that shd did, and thanked me for letting her know what is going on.

My wife said that she sent a text to OM, saying sorry for all of this, and that he didn't respond.

I seriously think that my wife is going to divorce over the post, as she feels that I tried to hurt her and humiliate her out of malice. She has a history of serial cheating. I just don't see how this marriage can be saved and made wholesome after all of this. People are telling her to leave, get a lawyer, journal everything that occurs, and prepare. Now I'm worried about my living situation, and custody/visitation.

I truly regret what I did with the separation insanity, though I don't know if this OM situation would have happened at some point, anyway.

DamagedGuy, I've been following your thread, and I'm sorry for the situation that brought you here. I completely understand a BS's reaction to blame himself/herself. The weeks/months following d-day floods you with a roller coaster of competing emotions, and guilt is one of them. "What did I do to cause WW to do this to me?" It happened to me, and after reading dozens of threads, I realize that it happens to all BS.

Your WW is acting like most waywards do, whether a serial or one-time cheater, and whether or not the BS asked for separation or not. Everyone thinks their situation is unique (me too), but it really isn't. Waywards ACT like addicts, because they ARE addicts. They gaslight their BS because it helps keep their fantasy A going, it keeps giving them a chance to get their "fix". They make as much sense as a falling down drunk.

We all do things that damage our marriages, I did, and so did you. But the scale of the damage you did with the "separation insanity" that you mention, completely pales in comparison to your WW's serial cheating. So please stop beating yourself up over it. WW was a serial cheater before you asked to separate. WW might have simply welcomed the separation as an opportunity to continue the A without interference. But you changed your mind about the separation, which threw a monkey wrench in WW's plans ("Why are you changing your mind now?"). WW's actions since then are typical A fog behavior.

You've received fantastic advice from the best posters on this forum. They've helped thousands of BS over the years, using Dr. Harley's proven plan and methods. The advice they give you is not always easy to accept or implement, but ignore them at your peril. Conflict avoidance, cherry picking, dragging your feet...it's a normal reaction to the stress you're under, but it will make things WORSE. Fortunately for you, the forum experts are objective and relentless. They know when you're waffling, and they will call you on it. The experts here CARE about you, they know you're hurting and what you're going through. Continue to listen to them, and follow their advice, even if it's scary.

Whether you choose to D or try to save your M is up to you. No one will fault you, regardless of which direction you choose. But whatever you choose to do, the experts here can help you.

God bless, and good luck.

I'm confused, why didn't you follow the advice in the exposure thread? Why did you expose the way you did?

Have you contacted the Harleys back?

Your only hope here IMO is to contact Dr Harley and follow his advice to a T. Your own relationship with your wife started on social media while you were both still legally married. She has had other relationships formed on social media since you've been married. This is a pattern for her. To hve a marriage that is affair proof with her will take you being strong, and being willing to follow the EPs and the rest of this program 100%. I have not seen a man willing to do that. You haven't taken our advice and have run amok with your own marriage wrecking behavior (like fighting with her, for instance) against our advice. You seem to want to cherry pick MB and do the majority of things your way. Your way is NOT going to work. Truly your only hope right now is speaking to Dr Harley and following his advice since you haven't seemed to want to follow ours.

Thank you, abrrba. This is the single most difficult thing that I have ever dealt with. I would take shattering my body in the accident all over again rather than what is happening now. I'm still trying to hold it together.


Part of me is weak, right now. I'm doing my best to have a clear head. The ongoing lies after she agreed to work on the marriage, how people who don't know about the OM are reacting, and fear about what will happen with my sons, has caused me to slip up.

I did expose the way it was suggested, using messages instead of letters. There are technical issues with my phone, so I couldn't do it 100%. The OM's family was notofied, his friends, some mutual friends, and especially his GF.

The facebook post was in the heat of the moment. I checked my business camera, and my wife, manager, and her toxic friend were absolutely slaying me about my post accident issues leading up to the separation, attacking the marriage, and making suggestions to my wife how to go underground.

Mutual friends that my wife and I have did not know about OM, and perceive that I'm being unstable because they view me as someone who flip-flopped in the separation and hurt my wife After all she has done for me.

I made the post with a combination of sadness, hurt, and anger. About an hour later, I felt guilt and regret over it, and deleted it. And now things are more scary than they were before.

I'm on hold with our internet/phone company because of a technical issue with our business. I'm hoping to call the Harleys before it's too late today. I have to get the technical issue fixed, or we lose business.

I spoke with Joyce Harley, and Dr. Harley will contact me soon.

Unwitten, I am do8my the best that I can. I am a human being who is broken right now, still dealing with PTSD and depression. Watching three women, one whom I am married to, completely destroy me and suggest ways for my wife to be secretive while in my place of business, triggered a fight.

It seems, at least on the surface, we have an understanding right now, about therapy and working on things, with NV with OM and that I will keep tabs, and I'm in plan A right now. We have been hanging out, laughing, and she is thinking about and mentioning things about the future as though we are going to make it. We are in agreement that I need to address my PTSD and depression, and that she needs therapy for her behavior. We both have a hope that there is a light at the end of the tunnel to keep our family together.

I am very much looking forward to talking with Dr. Harley.

I don't know if Dr. Harley tried to call. My phone bricked last night, and I'm trying to start using my wife's old phone, but before I factory reset the phone, I'm trying to recover deleted texts. I'm trying Dr Fone, but it keeps rebooting the device.

Damaged Guy,
I did a full out face book post sent openly to OW. I had to use a back door off someone else's page. OW had blocked me yrs earlier. I used the template provided here. It was very intense that day. It worked well, that was the end of the affair and the realization from my ws that he was out of control and addicted.
MY WS is a multi affair offender and pornography addict. married 37 yrs. Following MB online course. In recovery a little over 1 yr.

I am sorry that you had to go through all of that. Your recovery gives me hope. I heard that things can be more difficult with a WW, though I hope that that is not case. She keeps talking about things in the near and far future that include the both of us together.

Wayward's are very fogged out. Mine told me awful things one minute then tried to tell me wonderful things. Talk about long time commitments and plans for us at the same time as typig OW love notes on his cell phone. Don't be disheartened by your waywards words or actions. Just follow the plan as best you can. It took a long time for the fog to clear.
We are older of course and with one another 24/7 now. A complete and total change in life styles. We get up together go to bed together. WE are working with Dr. Harley and the online program.
The pain is still here and I have triggers, however our marriage is way way happier than it ever was.

I wish that I could be together more with my wife. Things have been nice over the last three or four days, with talk of future things. We are hugging (which I started doing, and which now does without me initiating.) I tell her that I love her, but I keep it sporadic while she works out of the fog.

I have utilized the Operation Investigate forum, and I'm relatively certain that I will know if my wife goes near OM. Text message recovery shows that it is highly likely that nothing happened with the married old fling, rather they actually talked. I can't confirm if OM was a PA.

Though things are looking up. Though there are people who were thinking that I was losing my mind and that she should leave me anyway. These people don't have all of the facts, or are fickle when it comes to marriage, but they can still influence my wife.

I will just keep doing Plan A and IC/MC until I can't talk to Dr. Harley.

DG, did you return Dr Harley's call?

Hi Lin62. Could you share how you did this, please? OM has blocked me too.

Have you tried this? Facebook: A backdoor to "see" more info

I asked my oldest daughter and son if they could get to her page. And they could and they could see her friends but they couldn't post.
However in her friends list was a close friend of my daughters. I asked the friend if she would post my letter. She knew exactly how to post it so it went straight to OW and all her friends and of course all my daughters friends as well. So I had to accept that everyone would be talking. It became a public post. Later that same day my husband wrote his letter to family and friends and posted it on his facebook page. So plenty of exposure and reality in one day.

I had a phone issue and I don't have a v.m. froM Dr. Harley, so I don't know if he tried to call me. I spoke with Joyce.

I have been doing plan A and staying off of forums due to anxiety. However, dw found the GPS unexpectedly. She didn't know what it was, and I to it and looked it over, didn't answer and brought it into the house.

So far it hasn't been an issue, but I'm Sur it is bothering her, and she probably feels like I'm going to spy on her forever.

Now I'm worried again, since plan A is going well. Now this. Our anniversary is next month, and I already planned it out.

We have been doing things together for days now, and she put her head on my shoulder when we hugged last night.

She said that she doesn't want me to give up time for myself or friends since we started the reconciliation process, that I need to think about me also.

But then the GPS discovery. I don't know how she is feeling or what she is thinking about it, since she doesn't know what it is. But my lack of answer wasn't good. I'm hoping that this event doesn't screw things up. I actually had my anxiety under control.

Well, we talked about it, and she knows it was a GPS tracker, because she looked it up. I wanted to remove it, but the unexpected discovery ruined that.

She is angry and said that I lied to her. She wants to talk about it with MC at our next appointment. She called it 'creepy,' which I was beginning to fellow like because I don't like the spying.

I'm very worried now, as she might just decide to divorce. I know everyone's stance on what she did, though she thought we were over because of my words. Unfortunately in this day and age, marriage no longer holds weight when people split.

I don't know if my marriage can come back from what is now deception from both sides.

Sure, it can. But you shouldn't look at this as "deception" from your side. Do you think the police are being "deceptive" when they spy on drug dealers? Of course not. Your wife does not have the right to the privacy to destroy you behind your back. You have a right to know everything she does because you are married to her.


Was she not aware she is married? In America, a married person is "over" when they are divorced. Does she think you divorced her?

Damaged Guy you are very confused. If I found a GPS tracker in my car I would go to my husband and ask if he put it there. If he did, I would sit him down and ask him what was troubling him and suggest ways to make him less anxious. I would enthusiastically agree to any device that would make him comfortable. It would of course need to be something invisible to me. Knowing of it would make it pointless.

If your wife is angry, that means she has something to hide.

She feels violated because of the agreement to a commitment to work on the marriage. The discovery triggered her anxiety, and the anger is due to the fact that she cut off OM and agreed to work on us.

She said she is still committed, though this snafu is a set back. She said that we will both talk to MC during our back to back IC sessions and go from there.

I am returning the GPS and am not going to be spying on her. It does feel creepy and dirty. I don't like doing things if they trigger her anxiety. We also talked briefly about OM and she agreed in hindsight that he was not leaving his GF, and that no matter what happens to us, she is continuing therapy because of the choices she made.

If our marriage survived this, I will be happy, but also surprised. I'm assuming that a big part of her wants out because of my actions.

Did you read this?

While you may have contributed to the deterioration of the marriage, you did not cause her to have an affair and believing so is damaging for you. It's damaging because it means you are living in fear that one, tiny misstep will throw her into the arms of another man. It's a threat hanging over your head.

How are you supposed to heal when you are tiptoeing around her AND YOU HAVEN'T DONE ANYTHING WRONG?

She has you by the horns here and it's no good to let a wayward drive the recovery bus. She is not rational or focused enough to have any idea what to do here and I promise you, the therapist will be detrimental as well. Your WW will use the therapist to continue to paint you as an unstable, needy, paranoid weirdo. How will that draw your wife back to the marriage?

Forgive yourself for whatever you think you did to damage the marriage and pull yourself together. You need to be strong, attractive and confident now. Letting her have her way by throwing tantrums and issuing threats will not save your marriage.

I did read it. It was one of the reasons I snooped. I also forwarded the link to my wife.

Outside is the snooping issue, I have been confident, strong, and have taken many steps to be more attractive.

We are together right now. We went out to eat, and I chose the place since she hates it when I say "I don't know, where do you want to eat?" I have made her laugh, there hasn't been any awkward silences, and things are well today, despite her angel over the GPS.

It was a setback, though maybe we can move past it. I reminded her that she agreed to letting me check on her, but she thought I meant strictly phone access.

Damaged Guy, Her finding the GPS was not a set back. Sure it made her angry. It also showed her you were being serious and confident in building on truth and honesty. Don't let her guilt you out. Stay strong. Snooping also builds your in her as she begins to be affair free. You will feel less anxiety because you will know she is being faithful.

I'm trying to believe that, though I'm not sure that the snooping tactics work with all wayward spouses, especially if they are still thinking that they might want out of the marriage, even though the affair is over.

We still had a good day together, and are sitting in the living room. We had laughs, did lots of talking, got dessert before driving home, and even talked about buying a new home someday.

It does seem that part of her is still in, but a big part want's out.

Of course, she told a couple of people who think I'm losing my mind.

There is nothing wrong with snooping. The goal here is to save your marriage, not to avoid her anger at all cost. You need to do a better job of snooping. Right now she is most inclined to restart her affair and you need to be snooping. Quit acting like you did something wrong, that is silly.

And it is silly to try to sell her on the concept of snooping while she is wayward. People who have noting to hide, DON'T HIDE.


I am not sure how you know what works and what doesn't?? How would know?

I'm just not sure how provoking her and making her lean towards divorce, while trYong to meet her EN''s is going to work. Especially with people telling her that she should just file a legal separation and then divorce.

I wouldn't "provoke" her, I would SPY on her. The fact that she's angry you were spying should indicate to you she has something to hide. You need to be more careful in the future.

The GPS never showed her going anywhere near the OM's town, and her whereabouts along with time frames are accounted for. I think that the Facebook post and notifying the OM's GF truly put a stop to the affair. I think that the sheer humiliation of the way I exposed was enough to make it stop.

She admitted that in hindsight, OM will keep GF on the side, and that she and OM are not intellectually compatible. If I did not discover it, it would have burned out as my wife would have eventually been disgusted with OM.

Howeve, like Dr. Harley says, EA's and PA's are addicting. They had only two weeks of her oxytocin and dopamine firing before I created enough havoc to make it stop. She had said that the stress of going to MC while also talking to OM while I spied and interfered was far too stressful to continue to deal with. I told her I will no longer tolerate deceit.

Also, she has nothing to gain by stringing me along. She could continue IC and just divorce, unless her plan is to wait it out to give the appearance that she "tried" to save the marriage. If this is the case, the court of public opinion might be in her favor if she sais that I was acting crazy by spying. People in this age don't care about the circumstances.

Or, it could be the delay that I need for meeting EN's. Either way, I gave her a choice: stop seeing OM and work on our marriage, or do what she wants and I divorce and go NC since I will not sacrifice my dignity by hoping things work out, while she plays house with somebody else. Nope. The fear has subsided for the most part, and aside from slight anxiety when I wake up, and some ptsd, the old me is back.

She called it an ultimatum. I guess that maybe it was. So she chose to work on our marriage, and I'm working on a major self-improvement overhaul, to be a better man for her, or for my future if she divorces me. I'm hoping that she changes through therapy and we rebuild a stronger marriage, but I have to prepare for the possibility that she checks out and Plan A becomes Plan B. If she is unfaithful, I will know as she simply can't cover her tracks, and I see enough that I go full Jame's Bond. She has a history of this. If it happens again, I will personally divorce her because I will not suffer an incorrigible serial cheater in my life.

So I'm taking a break from spying, working on Plan A, with a Plan B backup plan to avoid as much pain and sorrow as I can.

I'm hoping for the absolute best outcome. I love her, and even though we are spending time together, I miss her since it is like a friendship rather than a marriage, right now.

Thank you. Is it recommended or not to post on OW or OM's Facebook wall the template letter? ..and if yes or no why?

Thank you. Congratulations for the successful exposure. Is it recommended or not to post on OW or OM's Facebook wall the template letter? ..and if yes or no why? Do you have a thread on your story?

Have you read the exposure thread? It's in there.

Yes, I did read it. Clarified. Thank you.

What do you mean by a "thread of mine" on FB? what is this? What part of FB is it in when it is not on your wall? Could you explain? Thanks.

I posted something about my marriage and received responses, and then posted that DW was having an affair, and,posted a link to OM''s FB. I deleted it after an hour, but people saw it and notified DW. She was humiliated.

This is why we don't recommend posting it to a wall. In the exposure 101 thread it states to send private messages through Facebook to your exposure targets.

Thank you DamagedGuy and Brainhurts. I was of the thinking that posting on the wall is very effective.

I had a very successful wall post of my letter to other woman. It was the only link I had to her. And yes it was embarrassing and humiliating for me to post such a letter for all of my daughters friends and parents to read.
OW actually called me at my home. Funny she had full access to my information and I had no access to her. No address no facebook. I was blocked. She worked for law enforcement.
Even with the wall post she called to tell e my husband was "HER BOYFRIEND" That i had no right to him he belonged to her.
And yes the people here told me to take down the letter which I did after about 1 hour and 500 views.
The phone conversation that took place is what ended the affair. And succeeded in getting the facebook page with yrs of pictures of ow and my wh off facebook completely.

I just had a discussion with my DW. She is still livid about the GPS tracker, and she said that she doesn't know if she can get over it.

I deeply regret the decision to use it. She said that things were going well until the discovery of it.

Only a wayward with an intention to continue their SSL (secret second life) would say something like this. Coupled with the fact that she already has had a few affairs, you should expect more affairs in the future anyway.

Her reaction should indicate that things WEREN'T going well at all. People who have nothing to hide, don't hide. Being upset about a GPS is a huge red flag.

here

In addition to what SusieQ and MelodyLane posted have you read this?
Please Explain Gaslighting

Hello, everyone. I am posting to let you all know what happened. Wife was sitting on the fence while we have been in MC/IC, and not treating me very well. I then found out that she told her 16 year old cousin that she made a mistake and had a one night stand. Her cousin told my 16 year old son, who of course told me. She is trying to get custody of her cousin, and had planned on stringing me along in MC until next June, when her cousin graduates from school.

I canceled MC/IC for myself, and told the MC what transpired. Wife would not tell me who she slept with, but maintain's it wasn't the two guys she was talking to. I eventually said, well, you are a serial cheater, you have a void which cannot be filled, and you are not permitted to yell at me or treat me this way. I will file.

The next day, she called me on her lunch breao, crying, and said she is very sorry, loves me, is willing to do whatever it takes for us to get past this, and doesn't want a divorce. I said that it would be impossible unless I knew the truth. She didn't want to tell me the truth because if I knew, I wouldn't want to give her another chance. I said that I didn't know if another chance was possible, but that without trust, it would never happen, and that telling me the truth would be the cornerstone to rebuilding trust.

She made me vow not to retaliate against the man, and I did so. She told me that she called her ex-H to apologize for leaving him, because my separation from her hurt her badly, and she now knows what he must of felt like. His wife was out of town, and be told her to come over so that they could talk. She did (duh) and they had some drinks, he came on to her, they had sex, and then she said that she told him that it was a horrible mistake and that she left.

This occured before I came back to her once,my head was clear and asked to work on the marriage. Now I'm facing the fact that my wife sext/cybersexed at least 3 men since we have been together and slept with her married ex-H.

She backtracked on working things out because I was angry and said some things after I heard the truth, and she said she realized that I would never forgive her or get past what she did, even if she got the help that she needed.

She said that no one ever lived her as much as me, or ever fought for her like I have, and that she ruined it. That she doesn't know how to be loved, and that she is damaged goods who isn't god for me or anyone else. She said that she doesn't deserve me, and that I deserve to find a woman who hasn't hurt me like she has.

I felt some despair and anger that she backtracked, because of the emototional. I told her that I am struggling with the fact tayt I know she had an affair with her married ex-H and that I want bis wife to know why happened. My wife is afraid of the fallout, and I said you or your ex-H can come clean, which is the right thing to do, and if I have verification that she has been told the truth, then I won't tell her. If I tell her, she will probably be more angry, even stewing on it since she will have some time before confronting them about it. So there have been arguments about it.

I also sent the Facebook transcript to the first guy's (swears they didn't sleep together, just talked) wife, and nuked his marriage. His sister was posting on my wife''s Facebook that she can't keep her own marriage together and that she is a homewrecker.

So I feel sad and angry. I keep wishing for a miracle to male it all better with her, and it is irrational. I believe that I have codependency issues, and white knight complex, because I have a history of being cheated on by broken women who "need fixing."

I am filing for divorce, but I keep putting myself in situations where I am around her, and she acts like everything is normal, unless I bring up the situation. It is making it difficult to detach, and I find that I still love her despite it all, whereas I never had positive feelings remain in past relationships when I was betrayed.

Since I believe that the situation is hopeless, I'm filing, establishing custody with myself as the primary caregiver since I will have him more than her because she got a new job, Sue for my equity in our house and for alimony, and once the legal separation part is official, I'm buying a house and moving out and limiting my contact with her so that I can fully detach, move oj, and someday find myself in a healthy relationship.

DamagedGuy, I am sorry it has come to you, but applaud you for using good judgement. I think you are doing the right thing.

This.

Many great posters have spent their own time giving you great advice and you don't seem to want to follow any of it. So how can we help you?

I agree with MelodyLane that in this situation divorce is the right answer.

I'm sorry for all of the typos in my last post, my phone is horrible and I was feeling emotional and didn't check before posting.

Thank you, MelodyLane. It hurts, badly, but I know that it must be done. I hope that someday, my feelings for her, the memories of what we had, her face, and her voice no longer haunt my thoughts and dreams, and that my feelings dissipate and go away.

Unwritten, I did my very best to follow advice. I tried to avoid LB's, meet EN's, and delve into the truth, which I now have.

My wife has serious issues which she claims to now recognize. I have been told by others that she needs serious therapy, that maybe 3-4 years she will have made,the changes she needs to be in a healthy relationship and the we could try to have a new relationship, but that in that time, I will probably meet a woman who doesn't cheat or has the other issues my wife has. She says she doesn't know what drives her to sabotage relationship's and target taken men for her sexting/cybersex EA's (and at lest one PA) and she said that she hates herself for it.

It is sad, because my wife's issues Wil prevent her from being happy, and this will affect our son. She has said, in addition to loving her and fighting for her more than anyone ever has, I also made her laugh more, and feel safe (the opiate, depression, and pain induced separation notwithstanding.) She regrets that she is broken and ruined it.