Marriage Builders
Posted By: Franciska WS wants separation- moving abroad - 06/25/17 01:34 PM
My husband disclosed his affair 2 months ago and told me our marriage is over. At that point the affair had been on for only 2 and a half months, but he is madly in love. For the last two months we have been going back and forth and he has been leaving and coming back home but now he claims he is sure he wants to end it with me.

We have two young children and live abroad. He insists the kids and I should go back home. This would mean us living on different continents and he would not be able to visit often. (He claims he will but it really isn't easily doable because of the cost and distance of the trip.) I don't want to go and am still hoping for a change of heart, although he is in the fog and says all the usual WS stuff. I could stay here and live separately but we are in an expat bubble where the kids and I have nothing going for us in this situation. I am at home with them and we homeschool. I can't get a job because of the visa issues. No family members are here and all the friends are in the same situation of living with their spouses and children and I can't really count on them to help me out. For that reason the kids and I would be better off at home since there we would have family, friends and a normal life where I could get a job and put the kids into school, among other things. They know things are not right and are frightened, and they need love and stability that family would provide.

I am terrified of going because I fear the distance will contribute to ending the marriage. I am currently in Plan A and WS is responding well, and he is still living at home. So on the other hand the distance could bring him to his senses, which is what I'm hoping for. No guarantees, I understand that.

Any advice on my situation? I'm feeling pretty desperate.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: WS wants separation- moving abroad - 06/25/17 02:22 PM
Originally Posted by Franciska
I am terrified of going because I fear the distance will contribute to ending the marriage. I am currently in Plan A and WS is responding well, and he is still living at home. So on the other hand the distance could bring him to his senses, which is what I'm hoping for. No guarantees, I understand that.

Hi Franciska, welcome to Marriage Builders. Sorry for the reasons that have brought you here. I agree you should move home. Plan A is only supposed to last 3 weeks anyway and then you should move to Plan B. If you move home, he can follow you there to reconcile if he ends his affair and meets your conditions.

In the meantime, I would ask him to leave and go into a dark Plan B. Staying in touch with him like this makes the situaiton worse, because a) it tears you down emotionally and b) makes you look less attractive to him.

Quote
I am currently in Plan A and WS is responding well,

Yes, because he is having his cake and eating it too. He is getting the best of both worlds so he has even less motivation to end his affair. I would ask him to leave, expose the affair wide and far and go into a dark Plan B while you make arrangements to move home.
Posted By: unwritten Re: WS wants separation- moving abroad - 06/25/17 03:06 PM
Have you exposed the affair to anyone? This is a part of Plan A. Read the exposure link in MelodyLanes signature to get the details on how to do a proper exposure.

This includes exposing to your kids. They sound very confused, as they should be. Tell them the truth about the reason for your family falling apart. If you do not, kids will often blame themselves.

How does he know the OW? Is she a coworker?
Posted By: Franciska Re: WS wants separation- moving abroad - 06/25/17 03:38 PM
I have told people, including a couple of his colleagues, and yes, she works with him.

He doesn't want to end the affair and unfortunately I have no conditions. My Plan A thus consists of putting deposits in the Love Bank and hoping that he will miss me and the kids when we are gone and eventually seek us. I don't know if his affair will last. The girl sounds a bit immature and all over the place emotionally, from what he told me. She will be dealing with his baggage, and he already feels guilty and ashamed. And he will miss the kids badly. I suspect the bubble will burst eventually. He also has a huge attraction to me and I doubt she knows about what has been going on between us in the last few weeks in terms of intimacy. We can't keep our hands off each other. I guess this is not uncommon from what I've read.

He expects me to leave before the end of July. I'm dreading it and have not picked the date yet.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: WS wants separation- moving abroad - 06/25/17 04:06 PM
Have you exposed to his workplace?
Posted By: apples123 Re: WS wants separation- moving abroad - 06/25/17 04:23 PM
Go now while your account in his love bank is high. If you are in the area due to his job, his company may be able to help you.

He should not be a part of the separation planning and you should not discuss it with him.If he can go ahead an d sign paperwork saying you can take the kids out if the country, get it done while he is foggy. (only do this if required, some places only require it if you have already filed custody agreements.) Type up the plan B letter and leave it on the table for him the day you leave.

See an attorney tomorrow because you will need spousal support and international divorce/separation and child support can be complicated. Start gathering financial records. If he is a high earner or you don't have accesses, you may need a forensic accountant to look at things.

Start looking for someone to act as IM.

And for heaven's sake, don't tell him about your strategy or this website.
Posted By: Franciska Re: WS wants separation- moving abroad - 06/25/17 08:35 PM
We haven't signed any paperwork. I get the kids, he will support us. He knows I'll take him to court if he doesn't. We have agreed on things.
He is the type who would not respond well to me doing things in a formal way. That would destroy everything. I also can't go no contact after I leave. He responds to me when I'm engaging him, always has. Not communicating would make things worse. I'll need to have some channels open.

I'm more concerned about the emotional aspect of things. All of this has happened over night, it's been such a shock to me. I'm still struggling to believe this is happening. Can a marriage recover in this situation? He is determined that we have no future. Whan on earth can I do, if anything?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: WS wants separation- moving abroad - 06/25/17 09:10 PM
Originally Posted by Franciska
We haven't signed any paperwork. I get the kids, he will support us. He knows I'll take him to court if he doesn't. We have agreed on things.
He is the type who would not respond well to me doing things in a formal way. That would destroy everything. I also can't go no contact after I leave. He responds to me when I'm engaging him, always has. Not communicating would make things worse. I'll need to have some channels open.

Communicating directly with him will make things much worse and make it less likely you will ever reconcile. You can't save your marriage if you enable him. First off, it makes you less attractive and secondly, it will tear you down emotionally and physically very quickly to be competing with another woman for him. Competing for him like that makes YOU less attractive. The OW is not competing for him, after all. His "type" is a wayward spouse and this is what works best in a bad situation. You might feel you know him, but we know waywards. check this out---->
What Are Plan A and Plan B?by Willard F. Harley, Jr., Ph.D


Quote
I'm more concerned about the emotional aspect of things. All of this has happened over night, it's been such a shock to me. I'm still struggling to believe this is happening. Can a marriage recover in this situation? He is determined that we have no future. Whan on earth can I do, if anything?

Separate and go into Plan B. It won't save your marriage but it will save your mental stability while his affair dies. If you remain in contact with him, he will have the best of both worlds and the affair could go on for years. Women do not fare well under such circumstances, as it often leads to nervous breakdowns and autoimmune diseases.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: WS wants separation- moving abroad - 06/25/17 09:28 PM
Another important point is that staying in direct contact gives him complete control of the situation. He is a fogged out wayward who is high on an affair. That is like getting into the back seat with drunk driving. He will surely drive you off the road and into the ditch.

Plan B puts you in complete control. Removing yourself from the scene places all the focus on his affair, which makes it collapse sooner. At the same time, it gives you the opportunity to regain your balance by escaping the trauma. We would recommend you expose to his workplace too. [read Exposure 101]
Posted By: Franciska Re: WS wants separation- moving abroad - 06/26/17 12:30 AM
Ok, so when I go and if I don't communicate but leave it to a third party, this would help? I can't go into Plan B while I'm here. I will be going home in about 3 weeks.
Posted By: Franciska Re: WS wants separation- moving abroad - 06/26/17 12:37 AM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Communicating directly with him will make things much worse and make it less likely you will ever reconcile. You can't save your marriage if you enable him.

Separate and go into Plan B. It won't save your marriage but it will save your mental stability while his affair dies. If you remain in contact with him, he will have the best of both worlds and the affair could go on for years.

Why will going into Plan B potentially help the affair to die, while remaining in contact can help it last longer? I have read the link about Plans A and B many times, but I don't understand why going no contact can help the affair die more quickly.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: WS wants separation- moving abroad - 06/26/17 12:52 AM
Originally Posted by Franciska
[

Why will going into Plan B potentially help the affair to die, while remaining in contact can help it last longer? I have read the link about Plans A and B many times, but I don't understand why going no contact can help the affair die more quickly.

Staying in contact with him has the effect of getting his needs met in both places so he has no motivation to end his affair. He can drag such a desirable set up out for years. However, when you leave the scene, all of the problems in the affair come to light much quicker, hastening the death of the affair. Affairs are based on deceit, thoughtless and selfishness, so those traits eventually emerge, killing the affair.

Also, you make it much less likely he will reconcile with you for the reasons I gave above. Hanging around waiting for crumbs makes you much less attractive and you become even less so once the affair begins taking a toll on your mental and physical health.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: WS wants separation- moving abroad - 06/26/17 12:55 AM
Originally Posted by Franciska
Ok, so when I go and if I don't communicate but leave it to a third party, this would help? I can't go into Plan B while I'm here. I will be going home in about 3 weeks.

Here is a good thread about Plan B:
Plan B
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: WS wants separation- moving abroad - 06/26/17 01:41 AM
How old are your children?

Have you told them?

Have you exposed to his workplace?
Posted By: Franciska Re: WS wants separation- moving abroad - 06/26/17 02:24 AM
Melody Lane,

thank you for the thread link. I will read it now.

Brain Hurts,
I have talked to a couple of his colleagues that I know, but have not exposed it in the workplace. But people know. The boss will find out in a matter of days.
The children are 5 and 7 and I am shielding them from the truth. I don't want to traumatise them. Shielding them is the most important thing right now. They will know the truth eventually, be it in a few months or years. But I don't want to tell them now. They are too young and fragile.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: WS wants separation- moving abroad - 06/26/17 02:28 AM
Here you go. Exposing to Children
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: WS wants separation- moving abroad - 06/26/17 02:28 AM
Have you read this Exposure 101
Posted By: Franciska Re: WS wants separation- moving abroad - 06/26/17 03:11 AM
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Have you read this Exposure 101

About to right now.
Posted By: Franciska Re: WS wants separation- moving abroad - 06/26/17 03:40 AM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
[quote=Franciska]

Here is a good thread about Plan B:
Plan B

This was a helpful thread, I understand better what it's all about.

However, he is madly in love and the affair is still fresh. Convinced we are finished and we were never really happy. The usual. There are no hints that he might be interested in even keeping me as an option, even though he is loving the attention and care from me and can't keep his hands off me. All of this is me going through hysterical bonding and using it as Plan A and depositing units in the bank. I suspect the OW has no clue, and that he is already keeping big secrets from her about the nature of our relationship.

So to get to the point: what is the purpose of me going dark if he has told me several times he is not going to end the affair and does not want to work on the marriage? Does making the offer to wait until they are done make me look stupid? Is there a chance that the reality of getting nothing from me will actually make an impact and make him rethink things at some point?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: WS wants separation- moving abroad - 06/26/17 03:45 AM
Originally Posted by Franciska
Melody Lane,

thank you for the thread link. I will read it now.

Brain Hurts,
I have talked to a couple of his colleagues that I know, but have not exposed it in the workplace. But people know. The boss will find out in a matter of days.

It is real important he finds it out from you and not from your H and his girlfriend. They will lie and spin the truth. i would move fast and get the truth to them asap. Use the suggestions in the exposure 101 thread.

Quote
The children are 5 and 7 and I am shielding them from the truth. I don't want to traumatise them. Shielding them is the most important thing right now. They will know the truth eventually, be it in a few months or years. But I don't want to tell them now. They are too young and fragile.

No, they are not. They are not little idiots who can't deal with truth. Kids can deal with the truth, they can't deal with lies.

Dr. Harley, clinical psychologist and founder of Marriage Builders, on telling the children:

Originally Posted by Dr Bill Harley
The same can be said about telling children about an affair. My experience with the positive outcomes of hundreds of families where an affair has been exposed to children has led me to encourage a betrayed spouse not to fear such exposure. In fact, to mislead children, giving other false explanations as to why their parents are not getting along, causes children to be very confused. When they finally discover the truth, it sets an example to children that dishonesty is sometimes acceptable, making them the judge of when that might occur.

An affair is an attack on children as well as the betrayed spouse. And it's true that children are deeply affected by this form of irresponsible behavior. But it's the act of infidelity that causes children to suffer, not the exposure of it. Facts point us toward solutions. Illusion leads us astray. That's true for children as well as adults.
here

Originally Posted by Dr Bill Harley
Q: So, you do suggest telling our 10 year old son? Is this more than he can handle? He never saw any real unhappiness as my husband and I had a very low conflict marriage. I have been protecting our son from this truth. He still has hope that his dad is going to come home.
___________________________________
A: As for your son, the truth will come out eventually, even if you get back together again. And your son won't be emotionally crippled if he hears the truth. It's lies and deception that cripple children. He should know that your husband is choosing his lover over his son's mother. It's a fact. He's willing to ruin a family unit all for what.

When I first started recommending openness about an affair, I wasn't sure what would happen. But I did it because I knew it was the right thing to do. Now I know that for most couples it marks the beginning of recovery.


Originally Posted by Dr Bill Harley
The reason that children should know about an affair is that exposing it to the light of day (letting everyone know), helps give the unfaithful spouse a dose of reality. An affair thrives on illusion, and whatever a betrayed spouse can do to eliminate the illusion is justifiable. Mold doesn't grow well in sunlight.
here

Originally Posted by Dr Bill Harley
Q. How honest should I be about the A? (they are 7 and under)

A. Tell your children as much as you can about their father's affair, and how it affects you. There are some counselors and lawyers that strongly disagree with me on this issue, but I have maintained that position for over 35 years without any evidence that children are hurt by it. They're hurt by the affair, not by accurate information regarding the affair. Just make sure that you don't combine accurate information with disrespectful judgments. For example, you can say that the OW has taken their father away from you, but you should not say that she is home-wrecker (or worse).
here

Originally Posted by Dr Bill Harley
My basic approach to life is that radical honesty is valuable on many different dimensions. It keeps us out of trouble, it helps others understand us, and it helps others avoid the same mistakes we have made. Letting your children know the details of your husband's affair would help them in all three areas.

The more your children know about your husband's affair, the more careful he will be to avoid them in the future.

The more your children know about his affair, the more they will understand what you are going through in your recovery (by the way, you are doing very well -- keep up the good work!).

Being radically honest about your husband's affair with your children would also help them avoid affairs themselves. How it happened and how could it have been prevented is a great object lesson for children. I learned that I was vulnerable for an affair when I learned about my grandfather's affairs. The extraordinary precautions I've taken were directly related to what I learned about him.

It's the approach I've always taken, and while it's difficult, especially for the WS, there's much more upside to it than downside.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: WS wants separation- moving abroad - 06/26/17 03:51 AM
Originally Posted by Franciska
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
[quote=Franciska]

Here is a good thread about Plan B:
Plan B

This was a helpful thread, I understand better what it's all about.

However, he is madly in love and the affair is still fresh. Convinced we are finished and we were never really happy. The usual. There are no hints that he might be interested in even keeping me as an option, even though he is loving the attention and care from me and can't keep his hands off me. All of this is me going through hysterical bonding and using it as Plan A and depositing units in the bank. I suspect the OW has no clue, and that he is already keeping big secrets from her about the nature of our relationship.

So to get to the point: what is the purpose of me going dark if he has told me several times he is not going to end the affair and does not want to work on the marriage? Does making the offer to wait until they are done make me look stupid? Is there a chance that the reality of getting nothing from me will actually make an impact and make him rethink things at some point?

Are you even reading my posts? I believe I have explained the reasons for Plan B about 3-4 times now. If you aren't going to take the advice, i will stop giving it and stop wasting my personal time here.

I already KNOW he is not ending the affair and does not want to work on the marriage. If he ended his affair and wanted to work on the marriage, then Plan B would not be necessary!
Posted By: apples123 Re: WS wants separation- moving abroad - 06/26/17 04:10 AM
1. Never lie to your children. It makes the world a place they can't trust. They dont need all the details but they do need the truth. Tell them something like Daddy has a girlfriend but that isn't something married people are allowed to do.

2. His affair gains support when you are there, taking care of all the domestic stuff plus extra nookie. You are they third leg of the affair stool. Remove yourself and the thing topples. They often dont want to end the affair until they know what's missing.

3. Plan B protects you so you aren't so hurt you cannot consider reconciliation when the affair ends. Dr. Harley recommends this lasts no more than 2 years of waiting, at which point you file for divorce. You only take him back under specific conditions.

4. See a lawyer anyway. You at least need legal counsel, even if things play out as planned. But what if they don't?
Posted By: Franciska Re: WS wants separation- moving abroad - 06/26/17 05:12 AM
Thanks Apples.

I will tell the kids a more gentle version of the truth, avoiding certain language that would hurt them.

Plan B definitely sounds like it would protect me. I am already taking anti-anxiety meds in order to cope. I need to get away from this situation and am now looking forward to going home in a way.

I got legal advice and will not only rely on his word and good will.

I know I keep repeating the same question, but I really don't understand why the affair is likely to topple once I remove myself from the situation. I'm new to all of this and have done some reading, but don't have as much insight as other posters on the forum. To me it seems that the two of them will then be free to enjoy their life together without my interference. Ideal scenario, right? I'm sure he'll miss the kids and maybe even miss me to a degree, but is that enough to fasten the end of an affair? Apparently, they are madly in love, and it can take a while for people to wake up to reality. Am I missing something here? Sorry for repeating myself, but I genuinely don't understand how this works.
Posted By: Franciska Re: WS wants separation- moving abroad - 06/26/17 05:21 AM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Are you even reading my posts? I believe I have explained the reasons for Plan B about 3-4 times now. If you aren't going to take the advice, i will stop giving it and stop wasting my personal time here.

I'm reading all of your posts. I'm sorry I have annoyed you but I am freshly betrayed, confused, and still trying to accept my new reality. I don't understand how all of this is supposed to work, even though I keep reading things over and over again.
Posted By: Franciska Re: WS wants separation- moving abroad - 06/26/17 06:17 AM
I have now read the whole thread about three times and things are starting to click. Thank you all for your patience and advice.

So basically I will be meeting some of his needs simply by being in contact about finances and kids? Simply by existing in his life and communicating about a few limited topics?

I'm niw thinking about getting out of here in two weeks time. I can't drag it out longer than that, I'll go crazy.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: WS wants separation- moving abroad - 06/26/17 07:23 AM
Hi Franciska, I am in a situation with some similar features to yours. We live abroad in an ex-pat bubble and I found out my husband was having an affair with a work colleague in January this year. I threw him out in February.

Somethings from my experience might help you:

1) Definitely expose at the work place, including directly to the head office if you can. Do you have evidence that they have used work time or company cell phones to conduct the affair? Do you know if they have spent the night together during company field trips/conferences/workshops etc? My WH's employer was VERY disapproving of my husband's behaviour and use of company time and equipment to conduct his affair and this disapproval had a big impact on him, even though I was not aware of the sanctions they took against him at the time. The employer was also very helpful in supporting me to leave the country with the children. If you are an expatriate spouse with children, the employer has a duty of care towards you, not just the person they employ directly. For US companies, this duty of care is a legally enforceable obligation.

2) No contact is crucial because otherwise your spouse still feels like his family is there. He is having his cake and eating it. Your WH will only feel the real effects of his marriage-wrecking behaviour if he actually experiences the loss of you and the children. Contact maintains the illusion he has his family. And contact that includes shouting/arguing/emotional discussions about the marriage or future (which NO ONE enjoys) just maintains the association between you and things that are not fun for him. For him to want to come back, he must associate you and the kids with good things. And since you can't really give that to him right now, no contact is the best option. No contact will also help you enormously to feel calm, in control and to focus on making yourself happy - which makes you much more attractive in general. I have done a terrible job of having no contact and it has taken its toll on me. Get an intermediary to communicate directly with him about the necessities, but otherwise try not to communicate with him at all.

3) Try to focus on the big picture rather than all the emotions swirling around at the moment. Look at the reality of the situation. If your husband is an ex-pat having an affair at his workplace in a foreign country, I presume that he has a limited contract period in this place. The relationship will be like a holiday romance. But at some point he will leave this location and move home or somewhere else. It is very unlikely this new relationship will survive that transition, even if it lasts until that point.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: WS wants separation- moving abroad - 06/26/17 07:31 AM
PS. I have found the more "formal" your approach to separating and moving with the kids, the more impact it can have on your spouse. Remember he knows you very well and he has been manipulating you and concealing things from you during his affair, so he feels as though he can control you. By going through formal processes involving lawyers, the employer, or any other relevant third parties, you take away his sense of control of the situation and make clear the severity of what is happening - and that will contribute to waking him up from the fog.

Do not be scared about damaging your chances for reconciliation by taking a tough stance on infidelity. You need to show him through your actions that infidelity is unacceptable to you. The marriage can recover, but you must demonstrate that you will not accept this behavior and cheating will lead to separation and divorce.
Posted By: goody2shoes Re: WS wants separation- moving abroad - 06/26/17 08:46 AM
Originally Posted by Franciska
I know I keep repeating the same question, but I really don't understand why the affair is likely to topple once I remove myself from the situation. I'm new to all of this and have done some reading, but don't have as much insight as other posters on the forum. To me it seems that the two of them will then be free to enjoy their life together without my interference. Ideal scenario, right? I'm sure he'll miss the kids and maybe even miss me to a degree, but is that enough to fasten the end of an affair? Apparently, they are madly in love, and it can take a while for people to wake up to reality. Am I missing something here? Sorry for repeating myself, but I genuinely don't understand how this works.
You pick his dirty laundry from next to the laundry basket, feed him, take care of the kids. She gets the guy in freshly cleaned (by you) clothes who is fed (by you) and taken care of (by you). With her, he is in fantasy land. She doesn't have to take care of the children and is not devastated by his betrayal.

In short, she has the long end of the straw and he has two women who meet his needs.

He is so used to you meeting some of his needs, he doesn't know you are meeting them. OW is not meeting all of his needs.

If you stop meeting those needs, not all of his needs will be met and he will be less content. The fantasy wears of and OW will see the less attractive version of your husband (who has to wash and iron his own clothes, or worse, expect her to do that).
She won't meet the needs you have met all those years as well as you did, so there will be trouble in paradise.

The beauty of MB is that it speeds up the inevitable (breaking up the affair or discovering WH will not commit to recovery), while minimizing the damage to the betrayed spouse.
The longer the affair lasts, the more it will effect you. You staying in this situation will not urge him to change anything. If you take yourself out of the equasion, the fantasy affair will change faster to not so fantasy reality.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: WS wants separation- moving abroad - 06/26/17 11:07 AM
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Did you read this?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: WS wants separation- moving abroad - 06/26/17 11:20 AM
Originally Posted by Franciska
I know I keep repeating the same question, but I really don't understand why the affair is likely to topple once I remove myself from the situation.

It won't topple the affair. Nothing will topple the affair except the natural course of events. Some things will help, such as exposure, but you can't topple the affair. What you can do is make the affair last much longer by continuing to stay in contact with him.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: WS wants separation- moving abroad - 06/26/17 11:24 AM
Originally Posted by Franciska
Thanks Apples.

I will tell the kids a more gentle version of the truth, avoiding certain language that would hurt them.

By "gentle" we hope you mean to tell them the TRUTH. They need to be told their father is committing adultery with another woman and you are very deeply hurt by this. Your kids are harmed by lies and infidelity, not the truth.
Posted By: living_well Re: WS wants separation- moving abroad - 06/26/17 11:40 AM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by Franciska
Thanks Apples.

I will tell the kids a more gentle version of the truth, avoiding certain language that would hurt them.

By "gentle" we hope you mean to tell them the TRUTH. They need to be told their father is committing adultery with another woman and you are very deeply hurt by this. Your kids are harmed by lies and infidelity, not the truth.


My own experience is that children usually know. Children are world class snoopers. Mine knew there was something wrong but did not know exactly what as my ex husband was incredibly secretive. They literally cried with relief when I told them. Wayward husband's sister told me that they knew all about their father's (my children's grandfather's) tomcatting and assumed that was normal behaviour because their mother said nothing. That is how it cascades down the generations.
Posted By: Franciska Re: WS wants separation- moving abroad - 06/26/17 12:35 PM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
[quote=Franciska]

It won't topple the affair. Nothing will topple the affair except the natural course of events. Some things will help, such as exposure, but you can't topple the affair. What you can do is make the affair last much longer by continuing to stay in contact with him.

Gotcha. Plan B it will be then. Thanks.
Posted By: Franciska Re: WS wants separation- moving abroad - 06/26/17 12:43 PM
Chalk and Cheese,

thank you for your imput as an expat BS. I think the expat bubble contributes to these things. Everything about our life here is completely detached from the reality of local people and their world. We've been here 5 years and I'm truly sick of it all.

Living Well,

how old were your kids?
Posted By: Franciska Re: WS wants separation- moving abroad - 06/26/17 12:51 PM
Finally some clarity. We went to see a marriage counselor earlier. He agreed to go because I asked nicely, but told me in advance his mind was made up. He had a 1on 1 with the counselor, who later told me in my private session that WS is not exactly sure as he claims and is emotionally all over the place. He thought that were it not for the pull of the OW the WH would be willing to work on our marriage.

When we got home I asked him why he never suggested marriage counseling to me since he was so deeply unhappy in our marriage, or addressed his problems in a mature way. He said he was not deeply unhappy, but his feelings for the OW woke him up. The story from a few days ago was different - us not being compatible, he felt lonely, the usual. So the kids and I are being dumped for an affair that has been going on for less than 4 months. This is why he is destroying our family.

I cannot wait to go into Plan B. He needs to taste what he has lost. What an immature, selfish jerk.
I am so angry with him right now.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: WS wants separation- moving abroad - 06/26/17 01:01 PM
Originally Posted by Franciska
He said he was not deeply unhappy, but his feelings for the OW woke him up. The story from a few days ago was different - us not being compatible, he felt lonely, the usual.

He doesn't know his feelings at all because he is high on an affair. It is an addiction very much like alcohol or narcotics so he will be all over the place. I wouldn't expect him to be rational about his feelings because he is very much like a falling down drunk right now.

Did you see our posts about exposing the affair at his workplace?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: WS wants separation- moving abroad - 06/26/17 01:03 PM
Instructions from Dr Harley here: here
Posted By: Franciska Re: WS wants separation- moving abroad - 06/26/17 01:27 PM
I've seen the exposure material and will take a few steps. I'm so furious now.
Posted By: living_well Re: WS wants separation- moving abroad - 06/26/17 02:11 PM
Originally Posted by Franciska
Living Well,

how old were your kids?

The youngest was 17. The affairs had been going on since she was born but it took that long for me to discover them. I'm not stupid and I work in CS but he was very, very careful. The first affair was with a work colleague who lived 3,000 miles away. The OWs got closer to home as he got bolder.

When Wayward Husband and his sister first found out about their father's infidelities, they were the age of your children. My life would have been so different if their mother had taken the action we are now recommending to you.
Posted By: Franciska Re: WS wants separation- moving abroad - 06/26/17 02:16 PM
Originally Posted by living_well
When Wayward Husband and his sister first found out about their father's infidelities, they were the age of your children. My life would have been so different if their mother had taken the action we are now recommending to you.

I understand what you're saying. These things are awful. My dad was also a cheater and I found out in my early 20s. I felt disgusted with him.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: WS wants separation- moving abroad - 06/26/17 02:43 PM
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Did you read this?
Posted By: Franciska Re: WS wants separation- moving abroad - 06/26/17 03:08 PM
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Did you read this?

I have. I'm reading everything. The more I read the more I'm convinced I have to be tough with WH. He has been manipulating me and playing power games. Time to end that and show him I am now making decisions about myself and the kids.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: WS wants separation- moving abroad - 06/26/17 03:58 PM
So what is your plan? When will you be exposing to the workplace and to your kids? Who is on your exposure list?
Posted By: unwritten Re: WS wants separation- moving abroad - 06/26/17 06:25 PM
While you can't do anything to end the affair, there are several things you can do to put pressure on it and bust up the fantasy.

Exposure is one of the greatest tools for this. Affairs are far less exciting when everyone is looking at you with judgement. It is easier to have fun and relish in the fantasy when you have no consequences, nobody knows, you have no personal or professional repercussions, and in your case your wife is even accepting it. When everybody knows and you are suffering consequences it puts true pressure on the affair. It is also far more difficult to carry it on in secret if the worlds eyes are on you. Many people credit exposure as the main thing that saved their marriages.

Exposure also helps you by giving you support. What is happening to you is very devastating, and nobody should have to go through it alone. If your house was robbed and you were beaten, would you keep it a secret? This is a similar thing, OW is robbing you of your spouse and marriage and family, you are left behind emotionally assaulted. Why is this something you should keep secret?

Plan B as you have been advised also puts pressure on the A. When the Ow is forced to meet all WH's needs including the ones you used to meet, and she is listening to him complain about not having control or missing his kids, these will be reality checks. Right now she is getting the best of him but then she will get all of him...

Let us know what your plan is for exposure and we can advise you.
Posted By: Franciska Re: WS wants separation- moving abroad - 06/27/17 01:49 AM
I will email his boss. Many people know and everyone who knows is disgusted because young children are being dumped for his infatuation. His family are outraged and will help me and the kids settle at home. I have full support. He has been avoiding contact with everyone at home because he is ashamed and afraid. So far so good.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: WS wants separation- moving abroad - 06/27/17 02:27 AM
Originally Posted by Franciska
I will email his boss. Many people know and everyone who knows is disgusted because young children are being dumped for his infatuation. His family are outraged and will help me and the kids settle at home. I have full support. He has been avoiding contact with everyone at home because he is ashamed and afraid. So far so good.
When will you be telling your kids?

Is the OW married?
Posted By: Franciska Re: WS wants separation- moving abroad - 06/27/17 11:57 AM
I'll tell the kids this weekend.

OW is not married.

It turns out the boss found out a couple of days ago.
Posted By: goody2shoes Re: WS wants separation- moving abroad - 06/27/17 12:15 PM
Originally Posted by Franciska
I'll tell the kids this weekend.

OW is not married.

It turns out the boss found out a couple of days ago.
Inform the boss anyway. That's the only way to be sure the boss has the correct info.
Posted By: unwritten Re: WS wants separation- moving abroad - 06/27/17 02:07 PM
How do you know the boss found out?

As has been advised, tell him again the proper way. If WH or OW told him they likely spun a story. And if WH is the one who told you the boss knows, that is him spinning a story to you! Unless and until the facts come from you, assume the boss does not know.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: WS wants separation- moving abroad - 06/27/17 03:35 PM
I agree with the others that you need to still expose to their work and inform his boss yourself.

Who else on OW's side is on your exposure list? Have you found her on social media to find her parents and siblings?

When will you be doing the exposure? It needs to be done all on the same day.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: WS wants separation- moving abroad - 06/27/17 11:08 PM
Originally Posted by Franciska
I'll tell the kids this weekend.

OW is not married.

It turns out the boss found out a couple of days ago.

i would strongly suggest you expose to the boss, HR Director and a key VP. You have no earthly idea what the boss knows and even if he does know, he might be tempted to sweep it all under the rug.
Posted By: Franciska Re: WS wants separation- moving abroad - 06/30/17 05:04 AM
The kids and I leaving in two weeks. I feel ready for it. He is all over the place. We had a long talk this morning. He admits his emotional issues that he has been dragging his whole life brought him to this mess. He admitted he is like an addict and doesn't see reality. He wants to sort himself out.

I need to work on myself and heal. I know it will be tough, but I will get there. No idea what will happen with the two of us. I suspect reality will hit him soon enough, and his romance won't make him happy. The guilt and the shame - already working their magic in him - will not help them. I still have hopes for us, but it will be good to have no contact and separate myself from the drama.

He is in such deep fog but there are moments of clarity and I hope he gets his head screwed back on. I can't wait to leave now. Distance will help me.
Posted By: Franciska A letter from WH to his ex OW? - 07/29/17 08:22 AM
Their affair went on for four months. It ended just over three weeks ago in the sense that he made the end official. But he was gradually coming to his senses over the previous few weeks. He has snapped out of it, claims there is no more fog left. He is remorseful, ashamed, disappointed in himself and keen to do everything to rebuild our marriage. There has been no contact with her since the breakup. He tells me when he sees her at work meetings, which is thankfully very rare. I believe he is genuine. So far so good.

I am past crazy meltdowns and rage and am now quietly grieving. I have a desire for the OW to know exactly how this affair impacted both me personally and my marriage, and to hear it from him. He has agreed to email her and to say that he bitterly regrets his actions, that it was a huge mistake, that he is deeply remorseful for hurting me and damaging our marriage, and that he is fully committed to recovery with me. The email would not be nasty, just a matter of fact kind of thing.

The reason why I am thinking about this is because she went after him, boldly made the first move and then followed with the second. Of course, he freely chose to not tell me about her seduction and to then get involved with her. So I am not at all excusing him, but it really makes me angry that she made that first and second move. She knows me and my children and she knew well what she was doing. I would like some kind of sense of restitution, an apology from my husband that she would read.

What do you think? Since he is willing to email her, should we do it? Is it worth it? I feel like I need closure of sorts.

Thanks.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: A letter from WH to his ex OW? - 07/29/17 01:04 PM
Who has the affair been exposed to? Is the OW married? Why not follow the NC letter template in here? Exposure 101

When is he quitting that job? If they see each other at work you can guarantee the affair is still active.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: A letter from WH to his ex OW? - 07/29/17 01:46 PM
Originally Posted by Franciska
. There has been no contact with her since the breakup. He tells me when he sees her at work meetings, which is thankfully very rare. I believe he is genuine. So far so good. .

The affair is not over and you are not in recovery. He will never withdraw under these conditions and neither will you. Telling you when he sees her misses the point. If an alcoholic tells you whenever he drinks is he any less drunk? No.

He should NEVER see her. NEVER. Which means he needs to quit his job immediately.
Posted By: Franciska Re: A letter from WH to his ex OW? - 07/29/17 07:19 PM
She is quitting the job but is still there for a couple of months. They don't work together and are on different floors.

Why are you both certain it is still going on? I don't think it is.

Posted By: MelodyLane Re: A letter from WH to his ex OW? - 07/29/17 07:47 PM
Originally Posted by Franciska
She is quitting the job but is still there for a couple of months. They don't work together and are on different floors.

Why are you both certain it is still going on? I don't think it is.

Of course it is. They see each other at work every day. This is like sending the alcoholic into the bar every day, pretending he is sober by calling his drinks "workplace drinks." Nothing has changed here. If they were shagging in the broom closet, he would certainly not tell you.

How would you even know she is quitting the job? And even if she is, how will you save your marriage with them being together every day at work?

He should never go back there. Have you read Dr Harley's recommendatiins about workplace affairs?
Originally Posted by Dr Bill Harley
"While I unhesitatingly recommend immediately exposing the affair to friends, family, clergy, children and the other person's spouse, I'm not so quick to suggest immediately exposing it to an employer. That's because such exposure could have unintended legal and economic consequences. For example, the affair might constitute grounds for a sexual harassment claim by the unfaithful spouse's lover. Or it might trigger the outright firing of the spouse, making it far more difficult for them to find another job.

If the unfaithful spouse has separated, in spite of my reservations I recommend immediate exposure to the employer. But if the unfaithful spouse has not separated, I advise the betrayed spouse to warn the unfaithful spouse that if he or she works there one more day, the affair will be exposed to the employer. That gives him or her an opportunity to use vacation time to look for another job and make a graceful exit. If a new job is not found by the time the vacation time is over, I recommend applying for an unpaid leave of absence or a resignation to avoid returning to work.
here
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: A letter from WH to his ex OW? - 07/29/17 07:47 PM
Has this affair been exposed? Does his employer know your husband is having a workplace affair?
Posted By: Franciska Re: A letter from WH to his ex OW? - 07/29/17 08:03 PM
Yes and yes.

Posted By: MelodyLane Re: A letter from WH to his ex OW? - 07/29/17 08:07 PM
Originally Posted by Franciska
Yes and yes.

What is the position of the person at work to whom you exposed and what EXACTLY was said? Does the HR Director and a key VP know? Do they approve of workplace adultery?
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