An uninspiring title that doesn't begin to scratch the surface of my current state. This is very difficult to write because there is so much to write about.

Current status: Wife and I have are doing a live-in separation. Me 43, she 42 with 2 boys ages 10 and 12.

History: Acquaintances in high school, connected during college, dating after college. Lived together for a year before she moved out to buy her own home. Remained friends, eventually dating again, and several years later, married. We moved away from family and friends in 2009 (me following work). About a year later, we're struggling. Found draft text to an ex-bf (with whom she had an abortion with in college) with her in just bra and panties bragging about her 35-year old body. Later accidentally found out that while back in our home state she went out to dinner with an ex-fiance. Weeks later, she's contacted an attorney and sold her wedding band. Few months later and she indicates that she's here to stay, committed to working on the marriage and will not divorce me.

Issues: Me - early on and through the first several years of marriage it was anger. Angry outbursts, including road rage, raging at myself for perceived mistakes, physically hitting myself and verbally abusing myself, including suicidal talk, raging at her for perceived slights and mistakes. Raging here meaning yelling and aggressive tone of voice. Last several years the anger has receded (though not completely gone as I would lose patience and temper with my young children, including yelling at them and name-calling), but replaced with what I have recently found out to be depression that led to physical and emotional isolation and withdrawal lasting from a day to several days to several weeks. This manifested itself as not going to bed with my wife, not talking to or saying very little, not going on family activities, including holidays. Also a long history of passive aggressive behaviors, including snooping on her phone/internet and then coming at her sideways rather than talking directly about an issue.

Recent history - last 6 months: early part of 2019 characterized by me being isolated and withdrawn, frozen and unable to discuss problems I am having with her behavior or my personal issues (working with IC) or my feelings within the marriage. I initiate marriage counseling in March/April. No romantic intimacy since late 2018; sporadic "I love you's" and kissing/hugging through May.

Father's Day this year she informs me that she wants to separate following an instance the night before where, again, I don't handle my 10 year old's behavior well, including raising my voice and her stepping in but me not walking away (consistent theme the last 2 years). We agree to hold off telling our boys until after our summer trip to home state in July. Sleep in same bed, doing family activities, etc. No hugging, kissing. Doing MC with talk about possible reconciliation and the marriage counselor summarizing that my wife just doesn't have any emotional trust, that my wife can't be vulnerable with me and won't be without that trust. While on vacation back in our home state, she did indicate that she hoped that we could work this out and even thanked me for the kindness I was showing to her (her sisters are in rough relationships and she was contrasting me to their spouses).

Early August, discover huge volume of texting between wife and family friend's husband, ie., hours per day. We're still in counseling. 2x in one week, we have appointments and both time we talk about this "friendship". Day after second appointment, discover I love you text to him along with another text expressing that she cant wait to take showers with him after their runs. I immediately confront both of them, very tumultuous evening at home as I try to explain to kids what's happening. Understand now that what she explained in those 2 sessions was just a lie. Both claim to have just developed feelings for each other. HIs wife is battling alcoholism and between me and her, they started leaning on each other very heavily as they confided in each other about the state of their marriages. Odd thing is that the week before I found these two texts to him, she was actively assisting him with finding treatment centers for his wife and understanding what their insurance would cover. Concurrently, she is telling me through March, April into July and August that she's hoping they repair their marriage. In fact, a week before finding the texts, we were both visiting him the night before his wife left for a treatment center intake session and my wife would later remark two different times how excited and happy he was when explaining how he came home from work the night before and his wife had not been drinking (and he was).

She went no contact and notified several of her friends about an inappropriate relationship. I believe that her father and his wife knows and perhaps one of her sisters. Recently, there has been some low-level contact with him that I know of as their children and our visit each other's households on a daily basis. I think there's more, but it's through email and hidden. I did see an email exchange where she indicated that she would like updates on their family and he replied wanting the same and after having asked my wife when it was safe to email my wife explained any time and that she would handle whatever problem I had with it with me.

She has been writing a lot, including a letter to me indicating that she doesn't want to married to me and that I should continue changing to ensure that I am a good father to our children. I have seen some of her writing wherein she expresses a lot of hurt and frustration that she has to give up some a great friendship with him and for wrecking the relationship between our families (families were very close with similar-aged children, family outings, and camping trips together). She's angry that while she's losing some of her friends due to this relationship, he doesn't seem to be.

Currently, my wife has zero interest in working on the marriage. Period. She has indicated that she would like to work a divorce through a mediator and has explained that her resentment toward me grows as I resist the divorce and she feels that I will force a very difficult and adversarial divorce process. She has explained that she has suffered too long in this marriage and wants the chance to be happy by herself or with someone else. She describes our relationship, in part, as abusive, but also that she has felt unsafe and uncared for.

She has said that she sees the changes I am making, but recognizes this as yet another one of my cycles wherein after she expresses frustration with the marriage or the want to separate I turn my act around until...and then revert to similar behavioral patterns. She firmly believes that she cannot trust that the changes I am making can be or will be lasting and will not put herself into a vulnerable position to be hurt again.

This past weekend, we talked again about mediation. She asked, for the first time, why I was resisting mediation and divorce. I shared several different reasons. She and I both have divorced parents, though very different experiences. Whereas my father became highly introverted and didn't even date much, my mom remarried a physically and abusive alcoholic who just wrecked my mom, bother, and I for 15 years. My wife, otoh, her mother and father remained very cordial seeing one another at family events and interacting positively. They both went on to marry others and have successful relationships. I simply explained that I want a different marriage with her that is loving, joyful, intimate, and caring and that I think what's best for our children is having two loving parents in a loving, intimate marriage. She can't get herself on board with that.

My wife's emotional affair is a result of me leaving a huge, gaping emotional hole open and she intentionally allowed another man to fill it. She also believes that I could never forgive her for that which is another reason not to try to repair the marriage. Further, she has expressed, in moments of anger or emotional stress, that my resistance to divorce just means that I am holding her hostage.

I truly do love my wife. I am working on myself and making permanent changes (though, I could always have a relapse, I am far more conscious and present with my emotions). This live-in separation is a killer.

There are so many other details and bits and pieces, but I think I have exhausted myself typing this much out at this moment.

I would love some insight, advice, tough love, etc. I have broken my marriage, but while my wife is ready to divorce, I am not.

Hi DD, welcome to Marriage Builders. I am sorry for the reasons that have brought you here. Your marriage is salvageable, but only if you directly address the problems. The biggest problems are a) your anger issues and b) her serial cheating. Your wife has poor boundaries around men and as such, has become a serial cheater. You could have been the perfect husband and she still would have had affairs because she allows other men to meet her needs. While a bad marriage might make an affair more tempting, there is nothing you could have ever done that would overcome her poor boundaries. It is really important you understand this if you move forward in this marriage.

There is a chance to save your marriage if you follow certain steps and she ends all contact with this OM for life. The most important step is to expose her affair. I would encourage you to snoop on her and find out the depth of her affair. But everyone should know about it, your kids, family, close friends, the OM’s wife and family. I would demand that she end all contact and that your kids stop playing with theirs. Affairs thrive on secrecy, so exposure is like bringing in a crowd of onlookers to watch the crackheads get high. Exposure is the most important first step towards recovery; go read the link in my signature.

Exposure is part of what we call Plan A. The objective of Plan A is to bust up the affair while presenting yourself as the most attractive spouse. You should convey to her that you would be willing to meet her needs and be a great husband if she ends ALL contact with the OM.

And before I go any further, I would encourage you to stop saying you are “separated.” You are not. That is a pretend status concocted by wayward spouses to justify pursuit of an affair. They move into the guest room, declare themselves “separated,” and then carry on an affair. Sometimes right in front of their family. Don’t give credence to that silly game. You are not “separated.” You are married and live at the same address.

“ Also a long history of passive aggressive behaviors, including snooping on her phone/internet and then coming at her sideways rather than talking directly about an issue.”

Snooping is not “passive aggressive.” If you suspect your spouse is hiding something from you, it is a necessity. Snooping allows you to see problems in your marriage early on that are being hidden. You have a right to know everything she does since her actions directly affect you and your children. In your case, you already know she has hidden much in the past and has engaged in destructive, secretive behavior. Your spouse does not have a right to privacy to destroy your marriage behind your back. So I would encourage you to put aside your negative views of snooping.

Thank you, Melody.

I have asked her to stop all contact and not just because I am asking, but because the OM and his wife are attempting to mend their marriage as his wife goes through treatment for alcoholism. What more can I do here? I don't even know how to think about this let alone identify possible approaches.

As for the kids and demanding that they stop playing together, that seems too harsh. If we can keep the children and contact regarding the children to just me and the OMs wife, while stopping contact between my wife and the OM, is that sufficient?

I don't believe that my wife will even want to hear that I will meet her needs and be a great husband. In fact, I think it may cause her to resent me more. This has been a long time coming and she has indicated that shes been thinking about this for a while. I'm thinking along the lines of avoiding giving her signals that I am pursuing here and potentially pushing her further away. Then again, absent moving out, can I push her even further away than she already is?

She wants to use mediation rather than attorneys and I am resisting,but she is not initiating it and seems to be putting it all on me to start the divorce even though that's not what I want.

I continue to poke around, but have limited my snooping. The pain and the suffering that I feel after reading what she writes and texts to others is very hard to cope with.

I have hurt my wife tremendously in this marriage whether by causing her emotional pain, leaving her feel unsafe and uncared for, and her loneliness in this marriage.

Does his wife know all about the affair? Has the affair been exposed to everyone? The approach is to demand she end all contact with him. One thing you can do is approach the OM and ask him to leave your family alone.


The success of your marriage depends on complete and total no contact. Your children can get new playmates, they can't replace their parent's marriage. Your marriage is the most important thing to your children. If you get divorced, their lives will be irreparably harmed. Your children will understand and see the reasons if you explain the WHY. And yes, they should be told all about your wife's affair and why it is wrong.


AS long as she is still in touch with her OM, it will be hard to meet her needs, but you should still try because she will be more open to you as her affair dies. You need to tell her that you don't want to be divorced and that you don't want the old marriage back, but a great marriage where you are both happy. You need to paint this picture. She may reject it at first, but if you are a broken record, you will plant the seed.


Just don't cooperate at all. Tell her you are interested in recovery, not divorce.

Your main focus should be on 2 things, being the best husband possible and running off the OM. The best way to run him off is exposure and constant pressure. OM are cowards who don't like trouble.

I would step this up immensely. She has been very destructive and you need to know what is going on. I understand it is tough, but it is tougher not knowing because you don't have an opportunity to address the problems.


I understand. And she has done far worse. But if she will end her affair, you can create a marriage where you are both safe from the harmful behavior of each other. We can help you with this.

I would suggest telling her that you want to have a passionate, romantic SAFE marriage with her where you don’t hurt each other any more. Tell her you won’t go along with “separation” game anymore; you are very married and live at the same address. Ask her to end all contact with the OM and move back into your bedroom.

She will tell you to go to hell at first, but you need to plant these seeds. Be a broken record with all of the above while you work to expose the affair and run off the OM.

I wonder what telling her that I won't go along with separation means in practice, though?

One important detail that I left out and didn't remember until just now, when she told me on fathers day that she wanted to separate, she also indicated that she wanted to move out. And that was plan going forward. We all would go back to our home state for summer vacation, I would stay a week, her two and half weeks, and the boys going to camp for a week and change and then when she came home, she'd be moving out.

When she did come home from vacation, we went to a MC session and she explained that she changed her mind, that she didn't trust leaving the boys with me while she moved out. It was weird because she was looking at places, talking to her friend about living together. I suspect it was mostly because she couldn't afford it. But, that's what happened.

I suppose I were to tell her that I am no longer willing to go along with a separation that she would just move out.

One of the key reasons that waywards do this pretend "separation" is so they can pursue other people from the guest room. You don't want that to happen. You need to be loud and clear that you are very married and nothing has changed. So, in practice you are telling her she is very married and not free to pursue new relationships. It is also a reality check for her. She is lost in the fog, which is why she even came up with this pretense.


She is not serious about "separating" so she decided to do a pretend separation and hope you would go along. You shouldn't do so.


She would have already moved out if she was serious. She is not serious.

A key trait of wayward spouses is talking about doing things but never doing them. They are very double minded and confused.

A warning about marriage counselors. They are typically little more than divorce counselors and do not know how to save marriages. They are downright destructive when there is an affair involved because they don't understand the FOG, which is the high that comes with affairs. They give marriage wrecking advice and validation to the wayward spouse's foggy ideas that harms the marriage. Many advocate "trial separations" which are devastating to marriages. MC's have a higher divorce rate than the general population, so I would keep this in mind if you are going to see a "marriage counselor."

The advice we give here comes from Dr Bill Harley, a clinical psychologist who specializes in saving marriages after an affair. He has written a book Surviving an Affair, that many of us here have used to save our marriages. Just know that the advice you get here will be dramatically different from what you would get from a marriage counselor.

Okay. I can only imagine the response that would result if I asked her to return to our bedroom. She has unsolicited twice now said that she would not be returning to the marital bed or our bedroom. But I see what you're saying. Basically, we are married and the expectation is that you're not free to pursue other relationships. That's establishing a boundary, but what happens if she violates that boundary? I guess I'm in a position to make a choice and change my mind about not divorcing her.


Without anger or confrontation, how do I not go along with it?

Just let her know that you are not separated and won't pretend any more. You are both very married and still live at the same address. Tell her you love her and would like her to move back into the bedroom.


Without anger or confrontation, how do I not go along with it?[/quote]

Tell her what I said above. Don't be angry about it.


Did you read the rest of my posts? I don't see any response to them, especially the post about exposure.

The OMs wife knows. The OMs wife and OM were having a very difficult time in their marriage which is how the OM and my wife started connecting. The OMs wife suffered a brain injury years ago and over the last year developed a bad drinking problem. Just before I found out about my wife and the OM's "feelings for each other", he had told me that he'd given his wife an ultimatum that she clean up the drinking or they were done and he was trying to get her into rehab (with my wife's help!).

The OM told his wife two days after I confronted the OM and my wife. I have been in touch with the OM's wife (these are very close family friends of ours) and while I told her initially only about the I love you texts, I didn't say anything about the showering text. I stupidly assumed that he would be honest and that my wife would be honest. The OMs wife wrote a letter to my wife wherein she encouraged my wife not to abandon the friendship with the OM because they worked so hard on developing it. I was beside myself, wtf?

In the meantime, the OMs wife and I have discussed our situations and I have stated more than once that if the OM and my wife can't keep in contact if she hopes to mend her marriage. That the "feelings" will reignite every time they interact. Finally, a week ago I told her about the showering text. I reiterated that I didn't want a divorce and that if her husband and she wanted to mend their marriage then there shouldn't be contact. She responded by saying that she didn't care if my wife and her husband were talking 'cuz she could only control herself...can you believe it?

So the OMs wife knows. Some of my wife's friends know of her "inappropriate relationship" with the OM. Some of her family knows that we are "separated" but I don't know if they know about her "feelings" for the OM. To be honest, based on other reading, including Divorce Busters, I haven't been inclined to explicitly expose this to her family or other friends.


They knew the night I found out. I told them that their mother was choosing another man. Boy was she mad about that, she thinks I traumatized the kids by exposing her affair to them so clearly.


I have planted that seed and when any talk of divorce or the marriage comes up I reiterate that I don't want a divorce.


I have thought the last 2 days about contacting the OM and getting together with him to talk. First, to tell him to end contact so he can focus on his own marriage; and second, if he's really working on that, then to help me repair mine. He has a lot of influence with her.

So this is where you should start. Exposure is the most effective weapon you have against an affair. Affairs thrive on secrecy, so exposing it, using the steps outlined in my Exposure 101 thread will inflict a blow to the affair. It sounds to me like the affair has been somewhat normalized with all of you, and I would change that if you want to save this. I would reach out to her family and friends and tell them about the affair and ask them to use their influence to persuade her to end her affair. I would also stop your kids from being around her kids. An affair and a divorce is "traumatic" to kids, not losing friends because the parents have behaved inappropriately. Your kids are being taught that adultery is no big deal. That is the wrong lesson to teach them.

Marriage Builders is a radically different program from DB. Keeping an affair secret is about the worst thing you can do since affairs thrive on secrecy. You will never save a marriage if you are an enabler. Dr Harley is a trained psychologist with 45 yrs experience and he calls exposure the "most important first step towards recovery." You won't get DB advice here and that is why so many DB refugees end up here.


Her AFFAIR has traumatized them, not the truth. Kids can handle the truth, they can't handle lies and affairs.


I would expose his affair to his family and friends on facebook [use the steps outlined in the exposure 101 thread in my signature] and then reach out to him and tell him to never contact your wife again. I wouldn't address his marriage at all, he is not your friend. He is the enemy of your marriage and your children's family. I would take a more serious approach to running this dirty rat OFF. He is not a friend and he is not a person who uses reason.

This is bad advice. Here is what Dr Bill Harley says about exposure. I will add that those of us here in recovered marriages attribute that in part to exposure:



In your situation, the affair has been almost normalized and you and the other betrayed spouse are very foggy. You are playing along with a pretend "separation," your kids still play with his, and the OM's W is all in favor of their affair. Every adult in this situation is fogged out and in dire need of a dose of reality. Exposure will help you all see the affair for what it really is when you see yourselves through the eyes of others. It is like bringing in a crowd of people to the crack house to watch the crack heads get high. It ruins the high!

The interaction they have now is via email, though I don't know the frequency. I caught one email (she deleted them all) yesterday wherein she email the OM to tell him about a panic attack she had the night before. He thanked her for sharing and then asked how far she ran.

I'll read through the exposure thread....thanks!

Follow-up...does the exposure work even when the wayward spouse believes that they're done and/or that there was not or is not a strong foundation to the marriage?

Of course. The affair thrives on secrecy, getting it out into the open is ruinous. Exposure will hasten its death. However, another problem I see is your complacence. Your wife is still having an affair and it seems not to bother you at all. Your complacence comes across as a lack of caring. If you really care about your marriage, it is important that you start taking action. I would expose the affair, using the tips in my exposure thread and then DEMAND that she cut off all contact with this man. I would then confront him and tell him to stay away.

Have you read the Exposure 101 thread yet?

Tonight was simply maddening, though. Had my car at the auto shop that needed to be picked up and she offers to give me a ride...cool. On the way over, I get the, well, we have a moment without the kids and I'd like to talk about mediation. She then goes down the road of starting mediation now so that by next summer we can dissolve the marriage and the kids don't have to adjust while they're in school. According to her, we need to keep the kids interests and their stability in mind. I exercised some restraint and didn't tell her that she could have kept that in mind before screwing around with the OM.

I basically just let her talk and didn't reply. She kept on trying to persuade me that mediation was the best approach so that we could avoid the expense of attorneys and avoid a bitter, drawn out divorce fight...unless, she says, that is what I want.

I reiterated, again, that I want neither mediation or a divorce. That I'm not going to divorce her right now and would prefer remaining married. So she took me down the road asking why I would want this marriage (this being our crappy marriage where I had anger problems and would isolate and withdraw). I explained I wanted a different marriage and she banged me with, well, why, why do you want to stay married to me. She further went to say that, well, thats right, you wouldn't want to divorce me because I haven't abused you for years as you did to me (she characterizes my anger problems and withdrawing as forms of abuse). I suggest that we both have unresolved resentment and have both done some ****ty things.

Here's the real kicker...As she was talking about wanting to move on with mediation, she said that she wanted a chance to be happy with someone who wants her as a companion. I took a few moments and let her go on before telling her that I want to be and would be that companion. She smirked and sniffed and told me that that's not what I have been showing her recently because while she's been in crisis mode about her job, finding a new job and having panic attacks, I haven't been a kind friend. When I told her that I know her job has been ****ty and she responded that yeah, I knew, but that I wasn't doing anything about it. I finally had it at that moment. I told her that she's the one who wants to be separated, she's the one who keeps pushing and pushing to divorce and that for my well-being I was detaching to protect myself. Of course, her reply now is well, why wait to divorce, why not end it since we're both detaching. **** her. That was bull****, man.

Somewhere in this conversation she asked if I wanted her to find a mediator or if we should find one together. I told her that this is her thing and if she wants to pursue then move and at some point I'll have to become a participant, until then, I'm not initiating a divorce.

For our entire relationship I was the giving her the pep talks, encouraging her, supporting her and she was grateful for that. Now, because I am 180'ing her she's complaining that I'm not someone she can ask for help or for support since I'm detaching. Well, tough ****, this is what separation looks like.

It's funny, though, her implication being that recently I haven't been showing her that I care or would be a companion because I haven't been offering her a shoulder to cry on or coddling her as she's sitting at the dining room table crying while my boys and I are playing a game in the living room or offering her support when she's having a panic attack after spending all evening crying in front of me and boys. I'm not going to emotionally invest myself just so she can turn it on me the next day with another demand that I start divorce proceedings and telling that she wants to move forward with dissolving the marriage

I don't see exposure having an upside here. The OMs wife knows and my wife's closest friends know of their feelings (but likely not the shower bs). My only angle I want to play on exposure is to contact her dad (three marriages),her mom (two marriages), two sisters (both divorced), and one or two of her closest friends to expose not just that her and the OM developed feelings for each other, but also the texting and sexting in order to request their help in influencing my wife to go no contact and reconsider busting up our family.

The interactions with OM is currently only via email and of the email traffic I have seen they are discussing her recent panic attack and goings on of the families. But WTF do I know, right?

This live in separation is incredibly hard and is totally sapping me. If she wants out of this marriage, then she should own it and GTFO. Unfortunately, my fear is that she'd have the opportunity to act single and,as she says she wants, find that other person (any person, just not me) to be happy with and have companionship.

DrDetroit, It is incredibly frustrating when someone comes here and asks for help and completely ignores the advice. You said you "don't see exposure having an upside here." Do you have experience at this? FRom reading your thread, your best thinking has got you in this mess, so I am confused how you feel you are the best judge of what will or won't work.


The 180 doesnt work and we don't advocate it. It is an ineffective plan that only PROVES to the wayward spouse that the betrayed spouse doesn't care. AS YOU CAN SEE. It makes the OM look better because I assure you he is not giving her the cold shoulder. We are not in favor of tactics that make the OM look better and don't help you at all. Women are not attracted to men they have to chase. They like men that chase them.

If you are not going to follow the suggestions here, I don't see the point of posting here.

This is not a blogging forum. It is an action forum. And if you aren't going to take the action steps suggested, I don't see the point of this.

I want to assure you that people here want to help you. But we can't help if you refuse to take action. It is my experience that people who come here and BLOG, instead of taking action, are conflict avoiders and enablers. You can't save a marriage if you are an enabler. You will never save your marriage if you are a conflict avoider.

All good points. And you're right, I don't know what I am talking about, I am merely feeling.

And you're also right about the effect of the 180, as recorded in my blog post above, she thinks that I don't care about her. But I also confused why that even matters to her? She's the one pushing to divorce me.

It's counter-intuitive to chase the woman who told another man she loves him and told him she couldn't wait to shower with him. Why would I do that? Or am I thinking about the concept of chasing wrongly?

I want to follow suggestions, but emotions are getting in the way and I have to check that.

What are your thoughts on exposing to her immediate family?

Understood.

I appreciate your attention and suggestions so far. I want to follow the advice, but haven't mustered the courage to do so.

Your wife is very confused and fogged out. She doesn't really know what she wants. Her affair is doomed and if it starts crumbling [from exposure] she will start drawing more and more to you IF YOU ARE AN ATTRACTIVE PLACE TO LAND. As it is now, you are not. You are giving her the cold shoulder, which in effect makes the OM [or anyone else] more appealing.


You need to look at her like you would a falling down drunk. Sure, the falling down drunk does stupid things, but if you act strategically, the drunk will sober up and come to her senses. Your instincts are misleading you because you have no experience at this. It would be like me "following my instincts" about doing a root canal when I don't know a damn thing about dentistry. Following the instincts of a person with no practical experience makes no sense at all.


I understand. People who can't follow a plan don't make it. I think you have the ability to follow a plan, though, because I think you are perfectly capable of putting aside your emotions. I may be wrong but I don't think I am.


If it is ONLY her immediate family, that is a waste of time. That is like giving someone with pneumonia a "tiny dose" of medicine. You need to do it right or not at all. A little trickle exposure is just enough to piss off the affairees but not enough to damage the affair. Do it right. Expose to her family, your family, close friends, the OM's family and facebook friends. Do it right.

We get it completely. We have all been there and it is terrifying. Courage is a choice. You can make that choice today. But you have to act. We were all afraid but the difference between those who made it and those who didn't was the DECISION TO ACT.

I finally decided to pursue mediation with my wife to "dissolve" the marriage. Two nights ago I found out that she was taking the day off of work to meet the OM for a picnic lunch. When I confronted her she lied and said she was seeking his help to look at her resume. I'm a 20-year HR guy and she has friends in her field that she could have sought out, but didn't. I let the OMs wife know and her response the next morning was that she'd talk to him that evening, after they would have met. Ultimately, they didn't meet and my wife sent me several nasty texts essentially saying that I am the bane of her existence.

Saw a divorce attorney yesterday just to make sure I am covering bases and have an attorney available should I need one.

You have to make up your mind what you want for you and for your children first. Then you hack out a plan and follow it. Don‘t waver back and forth. What she says and what she wants is irrelevant

I am getting all sorts of conflicting advice, all of it, though, sounds reasonable. My wife has me convinced that she is done, no more tries, no more chances. My hopium says that she's in a fog, but I don't know. Advice to expose, advice not to expose.

This is hard. Currently, I am just not interacting with her. Can't bring myself to do it. I am behaving "as if" I'm already divorced. I don't tell her where I am going, how long I'll be, or what I am doing and I don't ask her what she is doing.

I can't bring myself to do the things that would amount to me chasing her, pursuing her by giving myself to her emotionally while she continues to communicate with the OM and continues to tell me that she is done. Is my pride in the way?

Your feelings are in your way. It has been my experience that the ability to put aside one's feelings is critical to success. Your posts are so irrational that I doubt your ability to follow a plan. Instead you are following your FEELINGS. And that is fine. It is your life.

Irrational? Perhaps. I'd appreciate some insight on what a plan might look like. I know you've indicated go full exposure and to chase my wife who continues to remain in contact with the OM. Is that it?

I don't even know where to begin putting a plan together.

It makes me feel sick and delegitimized to chase my wife and pursue her. What's worse, is the dilemma having looked at Divorce Busters and having read their rationale for detaching and 180s.

I'm so conflicted which makes me feel frozen.

MarriageBuilders is designed to give the best possible chance on your desired outcome with the least amount of damage to your marriage and yourself.

Divorcebusters damages your marriage and makes it more difficult to recover if that is the path you choose.

This is not a marriage at all costs program. This is a step by step plan to recover your marriage, or for personal recovery. So if you choose the goal, you will get help here to implement the plan.

If that is how you feel, then you should end your marriage. The tactics you are using won't save your marriage, they will make it worse. There is no crime in just filing for divorce and moving on. Just know that if you want to save your marriage, these tactics won't work, they only make the OM look better and drag out your suffering. You are perfectly within your rights to end your marriage.

The plan looks like this:

1.) A proper exposure as outlined in MelodyLane's linked thread entitled Exposure 101. This isn't done in anger or in retribution, but rather to gain a bit of needed support for yourself in an incredibly stressful time. It also shines the light of day on the affair and makes it more difficult for the couple to carry out their affair in the needed secrecy.

2.) You decide whether you want to try and save your marriage. If you want to proceed to divorce, go ahead and do it. MarriageBuilders isn't about marriage at all costs.

3.) If you want to try and save your marriage, then read up on Plan A. It's not about chasing your wife; it's more about being a really great husband and partner. No anger or threats. Be kind. Don't cooperate with your wife's plans to separate in house. Eliminate all love busters.

Of course, I don't want to end the marriage. And you're right, I'm worse off by 180ing her, not taking to her, and generally, feeling like crap.

You had me until not cooperating with wife's plans to separate in house. We are already separated, ie she's sleeping on couch and moved out of our bedroom.

I've just read the whole exposure 101 thread, though couldn't listen to the radio clips cuz I didn't sign up to pay.

Would you, or anyone else, be willing to read my exposure letter once I draft it?

I'm going the full exposure route. I'm not going to tolerate this continuing affair, even if it is only via email (though they were making plans to be together). I'm not doing this to punish, but to get some support from her family and friends. I've talked to one of her former friends who now says that knowing the whole story that she would have stepped up sooner.

Even if we don't end up reconciled, I will know that I took steps to save the marriage.

Also, I'm no longer doing the 180 part of ignoring her and not starting conversations. I will not emotionally invest myself or be her crying shoulder, but I'm going to interact with her. Not doing so is making me feel worse. I will continue to get a life, be the best dad I can, and continue working on myself as an individual.

Lastly, I will talk to my sons and theirs to explain that my sons are not allowed to be over at the OMs house and their children are not allowed at my house. They may still play together, but outside, at the park, at another friends house, etc. I will explain that this is because their mother and their father will not stop their affair and that when the kids are together in each other's homes their mother and father don't only have an excuse to communicate, but it maintains their relationship.

Your cooperation with this makes no sense to a rational person. Do you understand what "separation" means? Let's say I am falling down drunk and I declare myself to be Santa Claus. Would you feel it is a virtue to enable my delusion? Because that is what you are doing. I understand your wife is fogged out, but you should not be.

A married couple who lives at the same address is not "separated," that is just silly. You don't help the situation by enabling her delusion. Your kids must be so very confused.


That is a good idea. Hopefully, you keep it short, sweet and to the point. To whom are you exposing? Can you list out all the relationships?

Your kids probably have alot more logic about this situation and will understand completely why they shouldn't play with these kids. Don't drag this out, just cut the cord. If she does end her affair, you aren't going to be able to recover with the constant reminder of the OM's children.

Kids usually are smart as hell and have more logic and common sense than parents who are dealing with an affair.

Do you have a good friend who has logic and common sense who can support you in these steps?

Ok, but how do I not cooperate? What specific actions do I take? You've mentioned before that I ask her to return to the bedroom. Do I just repeat myself?

I've just read the whole exposure 101 thread, though couldn't listen to the radio clips cuz I didn't sign up to pay.

Would you, or anyone else, be willing to read my exposure letter once I draft it?
[/quote]


My mother and brother
Her mother, father and spouse, sisters, brother
Our friends which is roughly 7 - 10
Her teacher friends that she has worked with and continues to spend time with.

The REASON a wayward spouse moves into the guest room and pretends to be "separated" is so they can justify carrying on their affair. It is a STUNT. Living in the same house is not "separation." You are a sane, sober person who can see that you are not really "separated" and shouldn't go along with a delusion.

You make it clear to her and your children that you are - OBVIOUSLY - not "separated." You are married and live at the same address. Sleeping on the couch is not a "separation." The point here is to not go along with her RUSE.


My mother and brother
Her mother, father and spouse, sisters, brother
Our friends which is roughly 7 - 10
Her teacher friends that she has worked with and continues to spend time with.
[/quote]

I would ADD the OM's wife and his family and friends from his facebook page by sending them private messages. The objective is to a) garner support from people who will - hopefully - persuade her to end her affair, b) get support for you and your marriage and c) run off the OM. OM don't like trouble. In his case, he has an enabler wife so you have to reach out to other family members to apply pressure.

Yes, you're right. We are still married and continue to live in the same house.

Is not cooperating with her delusion just mean that I don't believe it or are they specific things that I can do to frustrate the delusion?

For example, move her dresser and clothes back to our bedroom?

I wouldn't bother to do that. Just let her know that this is NOT a separation. When you speak to your kids about not playing with the OM's kids anymore, I would explain this so they are not so confused. And be SURE AND HAVE THAT DISCUSSION ALONE WITH THEM. You don't need your fogged out wayward wife along to confuse them even more.

OMs wife already know, but will include her. I'll try to locate his family and friends via Facebook.

I'm also going to retain, formally, an attorney to file for D and try to time exposure and filing.

How should I be interacting with her now?

I would expose this week and THEN reach out to an attorney if the affair does not die off. That will give it all time to die down and - hopefully - penetrate her fog.

And even if you have decided not to save this and want to divorce, which is your right, you will want to let the effects of the exposure to die down before filing.

Is this Plan A time or Plan B?

Plan A. Did you read the exposure templates on my Exposure 101 thread?

I am getting some other advice that exposure should be pursued if there's a real shot at reconciliation. Specifically, a friend has suggested that it takes two willing participants to reconcile and my wife has told me that she wants out, and since she is still communicating with the OM, therefore at this point in time it leaves me nothing to work with.

What are your thoughts here?

Yes.

You are kidding, right?

So, you are out opinion shopping and not taking this seriously. I would first decide if you are even serious so you are not wasting time. But opinion shopping your friends - who have no experience, expertise and certainly no comprehension of a wayward mind is a waste of my time and yours. The advice we give here comes from Dr Bill Harley, a clinical psychologist with 17 books on marriage. He specializes in saving marriages from infidelity.

What is your buddy's background?

No. And I'm not out opinion shopping. I really do appreciate your advice and feedback.

I'm also looking to friends who have had a comparable experience, ie wife who was done or was in an emotional affair. Seems prudent and not unreasonable.

I'm really smart when it comes to solving labor relations and human resources management problems and troubleshooting and repairing car problems, but I don't know crap in this space. I shared what a years-long friend suggested to me not to be ridiculed but to understand what might be wrong or otherwise unsound in his reasoning.

Again, appreciate your continued advice.

I will address this but would really appreciate it if you would stop opinion shopping with people who have no expertise on this subject.It is not fair to me or the other posters to expect us to debate - by proxy - people who don't know what they are talking about.

Dr Bill Harley, clinical psychologist and author of Surviving an Affair wrote this:


Dr Harley has counseled thousands of couples using these tactics over the years. Most of here in recovered marriages used these tactics.


What your friend doesn't understand is that your wife's state of mind is temporary and is due to her affair. Busting up the affair will change her state of mind. Your wife doesn't know what she wants, she is about as decisive as a falling down drunk. Would you take the ranting of a falling down drunk as gospel? Any person who would take seriously the words of a person in an affair does not understand the mind of a wayward. Your friend does not understand this.

" at this point in time it leaves me nothing to work with" = translation, your friend doesn't know HOW to work with that.

Anyway, I don't really have the personal time to debate with all your friends but would be happy to help you with this program if you are serious.

Thank you. I do appreciate your time and help. I don't know how to evaluate the varying advice and support that I am receiving which is why I wanted to run that by you.

I don't think I know my wife's state of mind and sometimes think that shes in the fog, but then believe that she's just done. But what I understand from MB is that she may not even know what she wants and that it is the affair that is clouding her thinking.

But damn she appears so dead set on divorce.

Anyway, I want to stand up for my marriage and my family. I don't want to go down knowing that I didn't do what I could to improve myself and build a new marriage with the women I intended to spend my life with.

Please stop the opinion shopping. You will continue to be confused by conflicting advice and will get nowhere. You have been here now for almost 2 weeks and are still no further along. I have been here every day for 18 years and it is my observation that people who are opinion shopping are typically conflict avoiders. They rarely will take the necessary action to save their marriage. Rather, they "shop" for opinions that advocate doing nothing. The longer the person does nothing, the more entrenched the problem and the harder it is to resolve.

I am sorry to sound harsh, but I am concerned about your lack of action and really do want to help. I don't think your situation is hopeless but it will be if you won't take action.


We know your wife's state of mind, she is a fogged out wayward. They are all the same. She is not "done" until you are both divorced. We have heard "I am done" a million times. It is meaningless in relation to the outcome. I would wager that the majority of recovered marriages heard the same thing.

Thanks for hanging in here with me.

So exposure is the first step of my new plan. I will get to work reviewing and revising your templates and have something posted tomorrow.

Am I a plan a or plan b candidate? I am awaiting delivery of the SAA book. Until then, how do I interact with my wife?

Good man!


Plan A all the way! Plan B is for when you are separated and need to completely cut off all contact. You are not even close to that point. For now, be as pleasant as possible and look for opportunities to meet her needs. If the issue of the divorce comes up tell her that this wlll lead to divorce if she doesn't end all contact with the OM. Tell her that her continued contact with the OM is hurtful and disrespectful to you and your children.

Any advice to transition from what I have been doing (180 and detaching) to trying to meet her needs? It would be an abrupt change on my part and I'm afraid that she'll just see it as another instance where I withdrew and then came back...you know, the usual cycle.

Also, we have mediation scheduled for October 14th. Should I be thinking of cancelling it? Or let that move along?

I wouldn't be abrupt about it. Just start being friendly. She likely won't let you meet any of her needs anyway, but you can be friendly and inviting. Small talk is really good.

Interesting development last night - saw an email from my wife to the OM indicating that she would respect the request for no further communication. I didn't see what prompted that reply.

I suspect that getting together with the OMs wife and one of my wife's friends this past weekend may have played a role since we discussed what no contact would look like and getting over the OMs wife's thoughts that insisting on no contact was too controlling.

I do think that is interesting and I want to applaud you for snooping. I hope you are doing some in depth snooping to protect yourself. I would plan on doing your exposures and include a call to the OMW to find out what happened here.

Yeah, but I'm worried that she didn't break contact out of respect for me or our marriage, but at his request. Certainly doesn't signal anything good relative to my goals here.

It really doesn't matter why she broke contact. Just know that it probably won't last and don't get your hopes up. Exposure will help ensure it does last. I think you might be expecting remorse and a change of heart and I would not expect that from a fogged out wayward. Very, very few waywards wake up and suddenly see the error of their ways and change their behavior. Rather, they are much like alcoholics in that they have to hit bottom in order to change. If you go to AA and speak to successful sober people, most will tell you how they were FORCED in some way to get sober. Adulterers are the same way. They have to hit a bottom where it is harder to cheat than it is to not cheat. Exposure helps bring that about.

Have you read the Jon and Sue story, in Surviving and Affair?

Maybe and I may have forgotten...link?

I talked to my wife's sister last night. Found out that my wife's mom, both sisters, her dad's wife knew about the OM and knew that my wife had developed romantic feelings for him.

Also found out that they knew we were separating but also working on the marriage. I understand that the sister I talked to and her mother both explained that she couldn't work on the marriage with the OM in the picture. The sister I talked to wishes she had come down harder on her but didn't want to wreck the day they were having.

Concerned that none of them reached out to me.

Reminds me that while in marriage counseling (both pre-separation and until I found the I love you and shower texts) that my wife would talk about reconciliation and it being a possibility. The marriage counselor explicitly confirmed this with my wife. However, as soon as I confronted about the EA, reconciliation disappeared. I wonder how likely it is that reconciliation was never really an option for my wife and that it was a tactic to keep be blind, dumb, and compliant...

Maybe all of that doesn't matter at all?

BrainHurts is referring the book "Surviving an Affair" by Dr. Harley. Jon is the betrayed husband and his wife Sue had affair. Jon had become neglectful of his wife Sue, helping to create the conditions that made the marriage weak. Because his wife had poor boundaries around men, she and another man in her neighborhood became very friendly with each other, ultimately resulting in affair which was devastating to Jon. In time, the affair ended, but the entire process was very hard on Jon. By following the steps in Surviving an Affair, they were able to recover their marriage, creating a marriage that was better than it was before: passionate, loving, and safe.

How are you doing on correcting the problems you had in your marriage with your anger and being withdrawn? It's very important to become a much better husband to your wife. Plan A is about meeting any emotional needs she will let you meet AND eliminating all your love busters. Anger should not be a part of a marital relationship, because it's so destructive. Have you stopped this?

Ah, SSA is arriving this week.

Jon and Sue sound different than my wife and I in that this might be an exit affair, ie, she was done no matter what and the affair was just icing.

Re correcting problems... Angry outbursts have been dramatically reduced over the last several years and those that did arise in the last year were typically associated with my 10 year old at bed time...grrrrr. The withdrawal and isolation, well, that was a relatively new thing (compared to the anger which dominated the early years and midterm of our marriage) and was particularly bad the last 2 years. Once my wife told me on fathers day that she wanted a separation the isolation and withdrawal from the family has ended. She acknowledges my increased presence and attentiveness.

I'm active in IC directly addressing both the anger and withdrawal issues.



Of course, she has seen this all before. I have cycled many times through this.

Good news, Dr. Harley wanted to study mechanical engineering, but the university was not in a city his wife liked. So he studied psychology instead and engineered marriage builders. If you learn more about the program, you will understand how logic it is. Also, it is optimized to reduce your pain and maximize chance to recover your marriage. Also, if there is no hope, MB protects you from suffering unnecessary.

So either you trust "us" and start implementing MB advice now, or you will understand later and implement later.

Save your precious time and start now.
/commercial

That would be a great first start in your EXPOSURES. Have you contacted them yet? When are you planning your exposure? As you read from my thread, it should all happen on the same day,. What is your D-Day?


You are not separated, so talk of "reconciliation" makes no sense.

First off, there is no such thing as an "exit affair." An affair is an affair. Secondly, your wife is not "done." Jon and Sue were in a much, much worse situation than you. Sue was more than "done," she moved in with the OM and then she filed for divorce and got the betrayed husband LEGALLY KICKED OUT of his own house and moved in the OM. The OM essentally took Jon's place in the home. [yes they had children] Sue was "done." They are now happily reconciled in a fully recovered marriage for years.

Just a tip that will help you understand your wife better. Judge her by her ACTIONS, not her words. She is in a fantasy fog. You can see by her actions that she is not "separated;" therefore, does not to "reconcile." She is a married woman who lives with her husband. She has not filed for divorce.

This is why exposure is so critical and so very belated here. Your wife has been free to lie and spin the story to others when they could have been helping your marriage all this time. Rather, she was free to spin the story with some watered down version, "Dr Detroit and I have decided to get divorced and are 'separated.' In the meantime, I have been getting help and support from my good friend and his wife, OM and OM wife. DrDetroit is insanely jealous and doesn't want me to have any support."

I assure you they don't have any idea that she is having an affair and this is the REASON she wants to get a divorce.

When the family and friends know the truth, they can step in and try to use their influence to persuade her to end all contact. That is what the objective is here. But you need to hustle up here and get this done. Will the sister talk to your wife?

Seriously??? DrDetroit24?

Not to be harsh but just trying to help here...

But you have not exposed and you are expecting this from them?
You are the one who has not reached out to them.
If you can blame(for lack of a better word, many words/phrases can describe what you just said above in quote) them like this don't you think you should be the one to get blamed for not reaching out?
Have you ever thought that they are thinking why is our son-in-law not reaching out to us.... Oh, he does not care?
If you have not asked for help you expect them to get the courage to reach out to you?

Aren't you getting advice to reach out to them and more people?
Do you expect people to help you when you are not helping yourself?
At this point you have to look into yourself and be responsible and take action.

My observation from the thread: Instead of writing and writing expose right away and you will get the fruits of the advice from the experts on this forum. If you expose it will not be another day wasted like yesterday and two weeks. Are you going to have another day where you are just going to write and write(blog) and NO ACTION? If you had exposed you probably would have had a better chance of saving your marriage considering that no contact has been initiated.

Sorry veterans, I could not resist to let my thoughts skip this.

Melody, I tried to PM you to share some of my wife's writing, but the site tells me that private topics are not available. It includes names, hence, not posting in this thread.

Are we able to private message here?

DrDetroit, private messaging is turned off for this forum. Can you remove the names and post it here?

Maybe I shouldn't worry about it. Only first names and if she ever found this forum it wouldn't be hard to recognize the story or the other info I have posted.

PLEASE remove the names and post it here. It is really important that you get objective feedback.

*EDIT**

Thanks. Now, back to your plan. What is the game plan for exposure?

**EDIT**

??? I am confused. Why did you want me to read your wife's journal?

May I have some help with that?

Plan exposure for this weekend.

Parents, siblings, and close friends. This is not work related, so no employers. No clergy.

Can't meet face to face with them all or even some, only a couple.

Parents: phone calls.
Siblings: phone calls.
Close friends: texts.

Message: Wife and I separated on Fathers Day. Wife and I talked about reconciliation and continued to attend marriage counseling. Following return from trip back home, I found out that wife was involved with another man, including expressing her "love" for him and describing a desire to be sexually intimate with him. Following me confronting both wife and OM together, reconciliation was replaced with divorce.

As wife has likely expressed to you, our marriage has been really hard for her given my issues around anger and withdrawing and isolating myself from her and our boys. She has described that my anger and withdrawals left her feeling lonely, uncared for, and unsafe in our marriage. I see and agree that these feelings are perfectly reasonable and I would likely feel similarly if confronted with the same behaviors.

Wife has also likely described to you that although I have made promises in the past to seek counseling to get help for anger and depression, I have let her down by not following through and remaining committed to the work and improvements that I started. Wife has been through several cycled where I have sought help, started making changes, and then stopped attending to counseling. I own that. I thought that I was over the hump and that counseling had worked and didn't need to attend. However, over time, wife and the boys would see the behaviors creeping back before I would revert to old behaviors.

Wife has told some of you about an inappropriate relationship with OM, however, this was not merely overstepping a boundary to share intimate details of the condition of their marriages. Rather, wife chose to engage in an extramarital affair with a married man that included expressing love for one another and sending sexually explicit messages to one another. This affair has been going on since at least March. And despite my confronting both wife and OM in August has continued albeit hidden while wife insisted that communication has stopped.

I am exposing this affair to you because I want to repair this marriage and keep my family together. I love your daughter, sister, friend. I married her and she is my wife and I continue to love her and am making changes to be a more caring, attentive husband and companion. This is not a naked request for your support. I am and have been seeing my individual counselor for 9 months. Wife and many of you have observed and acknowledged some of the changes I have made. I have and continue to confront then root cause of my anger and withdrawals which is a depression.

I appreciate your time and consideration of this message and request.

I had posted that I wanted to share some of my wife's writing and you suggested that I remove names and post here so I could get objective feedback.

I am confused now.

She is writing in a variety of places across several notebooks and email, etc. I saw this writing as I was snooping (again, continuing an activity that you encouraged me to engage in).

Gotcha! I misunderstood and thought you wanted feedback on your exposure letters. Good job snooping!

You do mean HER parents and siblings too, right? I would add the OM's parents and close friends.


Perfect. I like that you are being thoughtful about your delivery method. That means alot.


This is mostly good, but strike out the part about separation and reconcilation. That makes no sense to objective observers since you are not separated. The idea that you are "separated" is a delusion that others can't see.


Strike this whole paragraph. The objective is to expose the affair and ask for help, not to air your life story.


Remove this unrelated paragraph.


Here is what I would send:

Dear friend,

I am writing to ask for your help. Wife recently asked me for a separation. Upon investigation, I found out that wife is having an affair with a married man named Joe Blow, expressing her "love" for him and describing a desire to be sexually intimate with him. I confronted wife and OM together and she then asked for a divorce.

Wife has told some of you about an "inappropriate relationship" with OM, however, this was not merely overstepping a boundary to share intimate details of the condition of their marriages. Rather, wife chose to engage in an extramarital affair with a married man that included expressing love for one another and sending sexually explicit messages to one another. This affair has been going on since at least March. And despite my confronting both wife and OM in August has secretly continued contact.

I am exposing this affair to you because I want to repair this marriage and keep my family together. I am asking that you use your influence to persuade her to end her affair with this married man and to support our marriage. I love your daughter, sister, friend. I married her and she is my wife and I continue to love her and am making changes to be a more caring, attentive husband and companion. I appreciate your time and consideration of this message and request. DrDetroit

Try to get the phone # of the OM's PARENTS and give them a call. If you can't find their #, then see if you can find them on facebook and send them a message.

Dear OM's friends and family. I am reaching out to you because you are a friend or family member of Joe Blow. Joe Blow has been been having an affair with my wife since last April. I have the evidence and they both admitted it when confronted. We have been married for XX years and have 3 children. My children and I are heartbroken.

I have confronted Joe and my wife and asked them to end their affair in August. They have continued contact ever since. I am asking that you use your influence to persuade him to stay away from my wife and work on his own marriage. Thank you for your assistance.

It seems that you are connecting the affair with your anger issues, and they are not connected. I want to make sure you understand this. Sure, anger makes a marriage very hard to endure, but affairs are caused by poor boundaries. If you don't understand and correct this, she will have more affairs. You could have been the perfect husband but as long as she has poor boundaries around men, she would still have an affair.

OM's FULL NAME needs to be on the letter.

ALSO, did you read through my posts in the Exposure thread? Your wife will be furious when you do this so you need to be prepared. It is a very expected reaction.

I have and have read into other experiences related to exposure.

I know I dropped my wife's writing on you and you're weren't expecting it.

I know when I read it and combine with her words to me, well, I see no hope.

I do see hope. It is understandable you would feel this way because you haven't seen situations much worse than this take a dramatic turn. While there are no guarantees, your situation is hopeful. I promise I would tell you if it wasn't.

I need to read up more in Plan A and what it looks like in everyday practice.

Here is a good article on Plan A and Plan B Plan A and Plan B

Can you tell me what typically triggered your angry outbursts?

A range of things, but as I have learned through IC this year, it was fear. Fear that I made a mistake, fear that I failed, fear that I wasn't the man, husband, father I should or could be.

For example, if I tried to repair something and failed, rather than chalking it up to a learning experience and being okay with not fixing the thing, I'd get bent because I thought I was letting my wife down, embarrassed by the failure, then believe that my wife found me worthless. I'd get angry and then knowing that I for angry I would withdraw and isolate believing that no way wife would want me around or want to interact with me.

Can you be very specific and give me examples of your angry outbursts? Would you get angry at your wife? Angry at the postman? What? What did they do they triggered it in you.

I was all over the place.

One example was earlier this year when I was moving a wire so I could shift the thermostat from one wall to another. I was in our crawlspace working and I messed something up. My wife was directly above me on the first floor. I started verbally berating myself and out loud said something like, "I'm not like the OM or an ex boyfriend of hers, so why am I trying to do stuff like this."

Another time was a few years ago when I had planned a date night for us at a local comedy club. When we got to the club and checked in, the host explained that we were late and besides there were no more seats. I replied that there announcement stated a start time and we arrived before that time and we had reserved our seats. There was nothing he could do he said. In that moment I lost my temper and loudly said f this, we arrived on time and have tickets and proceeded to turn around and walk out. I thought my wife followed but she stayed behind. As I crossed the lobby of the club I was talking our loud that I shouldn't even be planning this kind of stuff. I waited outside for my wife and when she came out I loudly and angrily restated my case and frustration. She was upset not just at the outburst, but that I walked out without her. On the drive home I verbally berated myself as a tool for thinking I could plan a date night.

In both instances, I felt embarrassed and humiliated and shame. I couldn't imagine that although this was a minor mistake moving an electrical line or a misunderstanding about times and tickets, that each events was not a disaster. Yeah, I used to catastrophize everything.

Gotcha. The reason I asked is that, while there is no excuse for angry outbursts, it is not uncommon for a spouse to actively and purposely do things to trigger anger in the other spouse. For example, my H used to have angry outbursts. He eliminated his angry outbursts but I had to stop doing the things that triggered it. I had pretty extreme independent behavior. For example, I went out and bought a new Jeep once and called him from the dealership just as I was signing the papers. He was very angry and asked me to leave the dealership immediately. I would do things like this on a regular basis and then accuse him of being "controlling" when he objected to my thoughtless behavior.

I used to have angry outbursts just like you [so did Dr Harley] and the key was to retrain my brain to not feel rage when I was frustrated. it is not enough to "not act out;" the solution is to not go there in the first place. Because when I felt rage, I was insane. The key is not feel the rage anymore. Did you learn this in your anger management? Because some don't teach this lesson.

Nope. In neither IC or anger mgmt therapy did I learn how to not rage. I was provided tools and techniques to cope with that anger which, I now know, was simply masking or covering up the anger. Hence, the cycles I described earlier. I'd go to counseling or anger mgmt for several sessions and my behaviors wouldnchange. Is suppress the anger, rage so it didn't show, but inevitably it would build and build and having no way to process it out, ultimately, I'd relapse into first passive aggressive behavior and then to angry outbursts or withdrawal and isolation. I am now learning how to process events without getting to anger. But all of this seems to be rooted in depression which I am also actively addressing.

The rage can be managed outside of your depression by using relaxation techniques. Once you learn to relax, your brain will essentially be “rewired” so you don’t even FEEL the rage anymore. When I encounter frustrating situations now, I go right to the part of my brain that works on solutions. I will see if I can find Dr Harley’s comments on this.

Dr Harley warns that if your anger management coach is not starting with relaxation techniques you need to move on.

https://www.marriagebuilders.com/angry-outbursts.htm

Are you taking anti depressants for your depression?

Yes

I've been working some emdr and somatic techniques with my IC and also relaxation.

Perfect. I am amazed at how using relaxation techniques completely changed the way I respond to frustration. It is been a real game changer.

Interacted with my wife last night. Came home from work in a cherry good mood. Was present. Unlike prior 2 weeks where I was basically dark.

I asked how her day was and had a positive conversation about some changes at work. She also asked me about mine and I was positive about it (doing best not to be so down about work), but no follow up. Her asking me is very unusual in the last couple of months. She also said good night to me which hasn't happened in more than a week or so.

Going to work hard on validating her feelings, being present during conversations, etc. But don't understand how to get into fulfilling her needs cuz I haven't identified those, yet.

I kinda wish I could do the plan b letter now. I've seen some versions which I respond to like, yeah, that's what I want to say to my wife right now.

She doesn't know, explicitly, that I know of the no contact request from the OM. She might suspect because she knows I can see her emails, she just doesn't know how I am getting to them. She hasn't told me that the OM requested no contact.

The OMs wife volunteered that the OM requested no contact and during a later call, OMW stated that she had talked to OM about going no contact as a way forward to their recovery and he followed that up by scheduling marriage counseling.

What's weird is, while only a day, my wife and the OM have gone no contact, so I'm confused about exposure now. I think exposure is still viable because it is supposed to shut down the affair in the present, but also harm the chances that it reignites later.

So I'm still on the exposure path and the reasoning is that it gets my side of the story out, requests support, and has the chances that it rekindles...

Do I still hit the OMs friends and family even though he has initiated no contact?

Do I contact the OM?

I read this article this morning - https://www.marriagebuilders.com/when-to-call-it-quits-part-1.htm

My wife could have been Plan A'ing me but went to separation, affair, and now divorce. I'm struggling how I can apply this to my situation. In each case, the other spouse wasn't on their way out, just (not to minimize it) neglecting the marriage.

Or maybe this article doesn't have a lesson for my current situation.

Very good!! This is what you need to do. Just be positive.


She likely will not allow you to meet her needs because she is checked out. The needs you should focus on are her intimate emotional needs, conversation and affection. Conversation is a GREAT WAY to open the door.



Plan B is only for separations after you have tried Plan A for a long time. You can't do Plan B unless you live apart.


This is good news,but you need to get exposures done. You need to get them done so you can move onto next steps.


Yep!

That article doesn't apply here.

And let's say it DID apply, the solution is the same. YOU would go into Plan A.

Oh, I know Plan B doesn't apply, yet. I just liked some of the letters. But I understand that the letter only works after doing Plan A.

Thanks for clarifying the applicability of that article. I've been looking for some Plan A experiences or situations similar to my own just to get some practical ideas on how to meet emotional needs when the other spouse is checked out.

You id'd 2 above, conversation and affection.

The conversation part...easy.

The affection part...uh, what? I think of that and think about physical touch, loving words like I love you, I appreciate you stuff. I'm anxious just thinking about it afraid that she'd recoil or verbally respond in a strong way. What would affection look like with a checked out spouse or in my scenario?

Affection is also doing things like preparing a meal, smiling at her, little favors of kindness that you are pretty sure she would appreciate. Might be calling her or texting once or twice to see how she's doing. Beyond the emotional need for affection: Look great, smell nice. Tell her she looks pretty and other genuine complements every so often.

Interesting text exchange this afternoon. We bought our home about 18 months ago. Our loan servicer called two months to talk about reducing interest rate. They called today and offered a half percent reduction and that would save about $120 month. It's a no brainier with no cost to us.

Now, my wife isn't on the mortgage. So I texted her about the offer and that I'd be accepting it tonight unless she saw a real problem with it or thought of something I missed.

I started my text to her by noting the awkwardness of bringing it up. Her reply to me:

"It is an awkward time, I'm not sure how to respond. i want to trust that you are doing this in good faith but it doesn't feel like you are. i know you want to stay in the house and and have full custody of the boys, at least that is what you have stated. With this change are you taking my name off everything? it feels like you are paving the road to put me out and take the boys away. The deal looks amazing and would be better financially for the family".

Embedded in the offer is an option to skip a payment in December. And she texts back...
"what do you intend to do with the skip payment in December? can we use it for mediation fees?"

Followed by...
"do the deal since it's a no brainer, is there something you need from me to finalize the transaction?"

I replied back:
"I have no intention with the skip payment. I ran this by you to get feedback. I don't need anything from you for complete the transaction."

To which she replied:
"thanks for asking me and running it by me even though it seems like you can do it without me sounds like you know what you are doing".

Hell yes I know what I am doing. Restructuring the mortgage on our house ain't a small thing so I wanted to ensure I at least have her a heads up.

But hell no the skip payment doesn't pay for mediation. She'll pay her part from her check and I'll pay my part.

Well, I did do the dishes last night after supper (she gets home at 330, so she's been prepping meals during the week. I've been on duty during the weekends.

Thank you for the suggestions.

You will look for opportunities to be affectionate as you warm her up with conversation. Conversation is a great way to build back an emotional attachment. I will post the thread of a police officer who won his wife back after he did a great job of busting up her affair and then meeting her needs. [she was "done" and wanted a divorce too] They are happily recovered now. here This man's case was one of the most extreme, but he did a stellar job in Plan A. And there is no such as a perfect Plan A. Most WS's will not allow you to meet her needs, so you just have to be creative.

You will find more and more opportunities to become emotionally attached after you expose the affair. Exposing the affair will have the effect of shutting down any future hopes for her and OM. That will turn her mind back to YOU. She will be furious at first, but as her hopes for the affair die off, you will be the more attractive option.

Do you have opposing shifts?

If I follow, yes. She cooks during the week and I get the dishes. Weekends, I generally cook and she gets the dishes.

Oh, btw, last night I took my oldest for a drive around the neighborhood to talk about whats going on in the house and see if had any questions.

We talked about what his mom has told him about the relationship and what he brought up was broken promises. So I talked to him about my various cycles of getting help, improving, and then reverting. I connected those cycles to him in experiences that he would remember so he could understand what I was referring to.

We also talked about his mom talking to him during a recent camping trip he was on with his mom and brother. He described his mom telling him that she liked the OM and had feelings for him. I asked if she used the word "love" when talking about the OM and he said yes, but he used "like" because he was worried how Id feel if he used the word "love". I told him not to worry about upsetting me that telling the truth is more important than being temporarily upset.

I then talked to him about marriage, marriage vows, and speaking those vows in front of God, family, and friends. I explained that when people exchange vows they are doing as a promise and commitment to each other. I then talked to him about being faithful and fidelity. He's 12. And when you break that promise and commitment to your spouse you're doing something grave.

I talked some more about affairs and that even when one or both spouses are not happy that an affair is not the answer and is completely wrong. Further that no matter how his mom felt about my role or behaviors in the marriage, that was not an excuse to have an affair.

Lastly, I explained to him that I wasn't having this conversation with him so that he liked me more or mom less or believed me more than his mom, but so that he would know the truth and that when he grows up he'll likely face similar challenges if he gets married and that an affair is never the answer or appropriate. Rather, that he needs to confront behaviors he doesn't like and set boundaries so that others in his life knows what he will tolerate or not.

I wanted to be more heavy-handed on the affair part, but didn't. He's a sweet boy who's always thinking about how to make his surroundings calmer, fun, and harmonious.

What I meant is, do you have opposing work shifts? Does she work out side of the home? What are your work schedules?

You handled this very well and I applaud you. It sounds like you did a good job of being forthright while gauging his reactions. Boys tend to defend their mothers and you did this in a way that did not elicit a defense mode from him. I can't begin to tell you how important it is for betrayed spouses to have this discussion with their children. Many don't, which leaves them wide open to the spin of the wayward spouse. If the BS does not tell them the truth, the WS always tells them lies, leaving the children hopelessly confused. Kids know that adultery is wrong, and when the BS does not validate this, they learn not to trust their instincts. It only causes moral confusion.

Oh, she's a part-time (meaning only during school year) teachers asst - she works as a parapro in a k-3 emotional growth classroom at a local elementary school. So we work about the same hours.

F^&*, another fail this evening. Tried talking to my wife about a refi option on the house just to make sure I wasnt missing something. She observed that with $9k closing costs and $125/month savings that it would take 6 years to break even. She had a look and I asked her about it and she remarked, well, it's your house. I got sucked into a relationship conversation. Baited, really.

She said something along the lines of me not choosing to show in the marriage and, bang, marriage talk. Didn't go well, either, because I get her pity party how I make all the money and the house is mine and she's just trying to get out of this marriage.

In these moments, it's like why the hell bother with any plan except divorce.

But I'm going to stick with it because I'm dumb. Well, no, because I want something and I'll regret not having attempted something but also protecting myself.

I wish I wasn't so dumb in this space.

Oh, and I wasn't just defending myself, I had to doubt what world she was living in as I reacted to her f#$king rewrite of our marital history.

Love buster, love buster, love buster....

Was she trying to tell you something about the marriage that makes her unhappy? It sounds like she doesn't feel she has equal decision making authority in your marriage. I am unclear what happened here.



What do you mean? What did you do?

I don't know.

We bought our home about 18 months ago. Our loan servicer called two months to talk about reducing interest rate. They called today and offered a half percent reduction and that would save about $120 month. It's a no brainier with no cost to us.

Now, my wife isn't on the mortgage. So I texted her about the offer and that I'd be accepting it tonight unless she saw a real problem with it or thought of something I missed.

I started my text to her by noting the awkwardness of bringing it up. Her reply to me:

"It is an awkward time, I'm not sure how to respond. i want to trust that you are doing this in good faith but it doesn't feel like you are. i know you want to stay in the house and and have full custody of the boys, at least that is what you have stated. With this change are you taking my name off everything? it feels like you are paving the road to put me out and take the boys away. The deal looks amazing and would be better financially for the family".

Embedded in the offer is an option to skip a payment in December. And she texts back...
"what do you intend to do with the skip payment in December? can we use it for mediation fees?"

Followed by...
"do the deal since it's a no brainer, is there something you need from me to finalize the transaction?"

I replied back:
"I have no intention with the skip payment. I ran this by you to get feedback. I don't need anything from you for complete the transaction."

To which she replied:
"thanks for asking me and running it by me even though it seems like you can do it without me sounds like you know what you are doing".

So, tonight, to involve her, I asked her to take a look at the offer. She did and asked how long it would take to make up the closing costs? I ran the match and said, 6 years. She had this look like she wanted to say something and I asked her about and she just well, "it's your house". I said, no, its our house to which she replied that, "well, you said you wanted to keep the house". I said, yeah, i want to keep the house, I don't want to give up the house just like I don't want to give up this marriage. Her reply, you mean the marriage you didn't show up in? And off we went. At some point she just said that she's just trying to get out of this marriage.

I dropped a few choice lines about how she is rewriting history to insist that I was 100% bad and chose not show up for the entire marriage and then told I just couldn't understand the reality she thought she was living in. Ugh.


Not asking her to tell me more. Not finding out what she really meant. Not asking her to clarify. I just launched into being defensive and arguing.

Not a good evening.

Ok, I got it. And this is probably a big reason why she checked out. When you are defensive and argumentative when she expresses her concerns you are telling her nothing has changed and giving her more ammunition. She said you had not “showed up for the marriage.” Sure that might be some rewriting of history, but you need to be open to change.

When she says things like that, don’t get into an argument. Tell her, “I don’t want that old marriage back. I want a new marriage where we are both happy. I want to do better and I am willing to do that.”

Just so you know (and I really need you to take this to heart), a complaint is an opportunity for change in a good marriage and an irritation in a bad marriage. When I tell my husband something is wrong, he fixes it that day. And vice versa. We don’t fight or get defensive. Let that soak in: a complaint is an opportunity for improvement.

Can you refresh my memory? Have either of you filed for divorce?

I read that whole thread and did not see any recovery. The thread ended abruptly with a mutual restraining order and her and him living together in separate rooms. Did his story continue in another thread?

It seems he suffered from constantly talking about the marriage and the relationship and kept getting back a wall of I don't love you, I'm done, it's too late, and a spouse who continued to cheat. That's not an inspiring thread about the success of Plan A.

A complaint is an opportunity for improvement. Got it.

I have said multiple times in the past 3 months that I don't want that old marriage back. It usually comes up when she asks why I want to stay in this marriage and I reply that I don't, that I want a different marriage where we are committed to each other, feel love, care, and safety together.

But that leads to a question - when she asks why do I want to stay married to her or why do I want to stay in this marriage - does she really want an answer? She's asked several times and I have provided a lengthy reply to both questions. In fact, now I just reply that I've already answered that or those questions

No, however, she has scheduled a mediation appointment and signed herself up for the required parenting classes and is waiting for me to do the same.

Re: Exposure - should I call her parents and siblings or send an email? I'm going to text or Facebook PM her close friends and teacher friends.

Also, since the OM has initiated no contact with my wife, why am I exposing to his family and friends? His wife is already well aware and I understand that she asked him to go no contact and he responded by telling my wife no contact and scheduled counseling for he and his wife.

Oh duh, I gave you the wrong thread. Sorry about that! It is here https://forum.marriagebuilders.com/...91622/wife-wont-admit-to-the-affair.html

What you described above was an argumentative response to her complaint. That is a huge problem. I would address that with her today. Tell her that you are sorry you argued about her concerns and tell her you will take her complaints seriously in the future.


If my husband blew me off with "I have already answered that" I would be very upset. Don't blow her off. Tell her why but don't be lengthy and avoid any psychobabble talk.

What is your answer? Can you give me an elevator speech of your answer?

I would not cooperate with this at all. If she wants to tear apart your marriage, she should do it all alone, not with your help. Don't contribute to your own demise. I would tell her this:

"I have been thinking about all this divorce business and have had a change of heart. I don't want a divorce because I love you and want to have a happy marriage. I am willing to work on that with you but I am not willing to go along with mediation. I know I can't stop you from divorcing me but that doesn't mean I have to go along with this. "

What you are doing is buying time. She is going forward with all this because she is still fogged out. The affair is already crumbling and your exposure will - hopefully - be the nail in the coffin. But she won't be fogged out after awhile. Why go through this completely unnecessary exercise? It is not a virtue to help your wife tear up your marriage. I would back out of this entirely.


It is best to call close family members. And BE SURE and ask them for their help. I can't tell you how imporatnt that is. You WANT them to call her up and people are more likely to help and respond positively if you start off by ASKING FOR HELP. Your line about not needing their help in your first exposure letter was counterproductve for that reason. [and because counselors are worthless in these situations, family members CAN HELP]


Just because he asked for no contact, at the request of his wife, doesn't mean he won't contact her if the spirit moves him. Rarely do 1st requests for no contact actually work. You want to keep him away forever. The more people who know, the more people to hold him accountable. The more people who know, the more people will watch their marriages around this guy. Interestingly, in several past facebook exposures of the OP, it was discovered the OP was having affairs with wives of other friends. Exposing him helps ensure he stays away forever. OM are punks and don't like trouble.

Let me explain this another way. She is the falling down drunk who has decided to get divorced because you interfered with her drinking. She won't feel the same way after she sobers up, though. That is why you don't ROLL OVER for a divorce. Make her work for every step of it if she really wants a divorce. I don't think she really wants one or she would have already separated and filed.

I would also think that if she really wanted to she would have ,except that she can't afford to retain a lawyer and file, hence the mediation route.

But I will, this weekend after exposure, tell her I will not be attending the mediation session that she scheduled. I will,though, attend the parenting classes with her and our kids. Those classes may generally be helpful anyway.

In Plan A, should I be letting her know that my expectations are? In other words, success in Plan A for me include her drafting a NC letter to the OM; displaying remorse for the pain and suffering she's caused me and the boys through her affair; and a door open toward R.

Does she need to know these things before I start Plan A?

Noooooo. Don't ever speak to her about Plan A. Plan A is not about any expectations other than her ending the affair forever. She should never know about it. Once she agrees to recovery, you can ask her to send a no contact letter to the OM. The NC letter is part of recovery.


You are already in Plan A, right? You are following the suggestions to be as attractive as possible eliminating lovebusters.

I have been here for many years and have seen spouses in the worst of circumstances find a way to file when they were serious. There are many ways to do this, a) take out a credit card, b) find an attorney that will take it out of the settlement, c) get a loan from family or friends. In many states, you don't even need an attorney, you just download the papers and file yourself. I don't believe your wife is too serious about this.


Do you know what this is about? Is this a "class" to prepare your kids for something that may never happen, divorce? Do you otherwise need help with your parenting? It seems to me like this would be very confusing to your children if there is no divorce.

What makes you describe this as her "pity party"?

Do you realise what a disrespectful judgement that is? Even though you didn't say it out loud, if that's how you see her perspective on how your marriage has been, how can you hope to meet her emotional needs?

Ah, I get it. Dismissive and disrespectful. You're right.

I feel, though, that she is being manipulative rather than acting in good faith. And I shouldn't perceive it that way.

You're still doing it. You need to stop.

Well, exposure did not happen this weekend. Called her mom and she was on a road trip to Mt Rushmore; called her dad and he was horseback riding, called her brother, but he wasn't available. So that was half her family and I stopped. I am taking a day from work tomorrow to do the exposure to family via phone and our friends via text and then FB for the OM.

Extremely anxious about doing so because I know that the OM has initiated no contact.

In the meantime, I am getting pressure from my wife about mediation (scheduled for the 14th) and this parenting class. Here's her email to me this morning:

There is so much we have to discuss about the future. You have told me that we cannot continue to live the way we are, although in my opinion it’s the best our family has ever functioned. This leaves me with 2 choices, return to the marriage or divorce. I have chosen divorce. We need to tell our kids and I would like to do it together. Do you want to do this after our mediation sessions have ironed out the details of custody? I signed them up to take the class on Saturday’s with me. I have tried to bring this up but it feels like you shut down when I do.

Right now, I am giving the love and affection that I feel safe giving. I understand that you desire more from this relationship but I can’t give you anything more than a kind and considerate co-parent. This is why I am pursuing a divorce. I know I can’t be the wife you desire me to be, I gave all I could to this relationship.

Hopefully we can find time to discuss this as loving co-parents who do not want to drag our children through a nasty divorce. When would be a good time to have this discussion?

What is "it"?

I did see an email to her dad and found it, well, interesting. She indicated that we're not working on the marriage and she mentions nothing about the OM.

Things around the house have been calm. DrD is working hard on changing his behavior and connecting with the boys. We aren't working on the marriage but it is nice to see the boys receiving positive interactions with DrD. He is capable of being a good dad to them. He started Prozac in July and is still working with a therapist. I have not started the EMDR therapy yet. Working and being the main support for the boys leaves very little time for counseling sessions for me. The basement is still unfinished, which means I am still sleeping on the couch at night. We eat dinner together as a family, which is a new change. In the past, DrD would either get home to late because he would sleep in and get to work late. Or he wouldn't eat with us at all and simply come home and get on his computer. I have noticed a positive changes in the boys behavior. They are enjoy the attention from both parents, finally!

Also, caught a text to her sister from late last week:
http://imgur.com/a/A0IGh9a

It is so hard to maintain the effort to work through this and maintain the desire to try to repair this marriage.

The constant drumbeat of "I'm done" and "it's over" is exhausting.

That's great. It sounds like you have a great plan. In the future if you can't reach those people by phone, send them a thoughtful email or a text asking them to call you. There is no such thing as a PERFECT TIME so you need to roll with it.

Did you change up your epxosure letter as I suggested? You will greatly confuse your exposure targets if you add in a bunch of garbage that is not related to her affair. For example your angry outbursts.That will muddy the waters.


Of course, she wants you to bend over and just - happily - cooperate with her intended destruction of your family. Don't do that. Don't do that to your kids. When she sobers up from the effects of the affair she will wonder why you never fought for your marriage. Your kids will wonder too. There is no virtue in cooperating with the destruction of your marriage and your children's family.

Write her back and tell her what I told you previously about this. "Co-parenting" is a MYTH created by uncaring, lazy court bureaucrats who want to make their job easy. 85% of divorces are not amicable [or they wouldn't be getting divorced!] and trying to FORCE them to be so only causes added stress on the parent. Most parents who "co-parent" end in horrible, emotionally charged fights that greatly impacts their ability to parent. More and more courts are waking up to this fact and using PARALLEL PARENTING where there is no direct contact.

I would add that to the letter I wrote for you above. Tell her: I have "no desire to participate in any divorce actions. If you feel obliged to file for divorce I fully understand that is your right and I will respond by getting my own attorney. I sure hope you don't drag our kids through a nasty divorce but I will be letting them know that I am not interested in divorce and won't be cooperating."

You need to make it clear to her - AND TO YOUR KIDS - that you are not going to cooperate with this. That will buy you some time for her to come out of the fog.

Calling her manipulative is a lovebuster.

Your positive changes are being noticed!! This is a very good thing. This is another reason why you need to not cooperate. This is a good sign!!

What does she mean when she says she is the main support? You do work, right?

Why is she considering having EMDR therapy?

Wow what a sad letter. I encourage you to download the marriage builder radio show app and start listening every day. You need a massive overhaul of what you think extraordinary care is. This will help you make a marriage where you find your greatest happiness and so does your wife. She sounds so in withdrawal in that letter. And I read in post after post that you use her attitude as an excuse to withdraw yourself too. Please take a listen to that show daily and let it show you a whole new way to enjoy life with your family.

I have rewritten it with your suggestions included, though I imagine during the call with her family and mine that I'll end up talking a bit about my side of the street. But the focus will be on that I don't want the divorce, that she's in an affair, and I want their support in ending the affair and repairing the marriage.


Thank you for the suggestions. I will.

I'm thinking that tomorrow after I expose, we'll have dinner together and I will engage her and our boys in a conversation about her wanting to divorce and that I do not. I'll let her and the boys know that I am not going to engage in any conversation about divorce, but a I will certainly talk about repairing the marriage and reconciliation as soon as she sends the OM a clear no contact forever letter.

If she hasn't already gone ballistic about the exposure then that's the plan. Oh, I will expose to family tomorrow. Have the dinner talk if she's not flipping out and follow that up with email and text to friends after bed time.

I can imagine at dinner that she will launch into her litany of reasons why we should divorce. She was lonely, felt uncared for, unsafe, it's been over for a long time, she wants a chance to be happy with someone else, etc. I will be a broken record. The affair is unjustified, you're being unfaithful not just to me, but our children, too, we are a family and I am committed to fighting for this marriage, to repairing it, and meeting her most important needs which is why I won't participate in divorce talk and will not cooperate with mediation or parenting classes.

Oh, I don't tell her I think she is being manipulative. But it is what I think of behavior at times. But, maybe I need to be more compassionate and know that she is hurting, too.

That is a PERFECT PLAN. I like the idea of saying this in front of your kids. I don’t think you will be able to have that discussion with HER there tomorrow, though. She will be furious at you for exposure. Expect her to blame you and demonize you for a few days. Expect to hear “I was going to work on our marriage but now i’m not.” That is CLASSIC. Just prepare yourself for the worst and don’t let her bait you into a fight. Have full control of your emotions no matter what.

If she launches into her reasons for wanting a divorce, just agree that you were doing a terrible job of being a husband but have changed. No arguing and no defensiveness no matter how tempting.

You are very much on the right track and I want to applaud you for thinking strategically.

Yeah, I know she noticed it, she just always smacks with that the changes are too little, too late for her, great for the kids, I'm only making them because I am losing her....


I'm not exactly sure. I think it means that she gets home earlier from work than I do, hence, rather than going to IC, she's taking care of the boys and supper and then I'm home at 530. Except, the boys are 10 and 12 and generally come home from school and then go out to play. So I'm not sure why she's using this as a rationale for not doing IC. Although, she has told me that her IC has and would continue to tell her to divorce me.

A theme she has brought up to me is that shes been the primary care giver as she's been a sahm and because I would withdraw and isolate.


My younger brother did it after his breakup with a live in girlfriend and I pursued it with my IC (and we ended up shifting to somatic work), so she was also looking into it.

Thank you, I didn't know about the radio app.

I don't think I use her attitude as an excuse. Rather, I would screw up somehow, eg, angry outburst, yell at the kids, yell at her and would then be ashamed and embarrassed and in my own kind conclude who would want to love a f'ed up person like me that can't control his emotions or reform his behavior and then withdraw until stuff died down.

I can imagine that she won't be furious about the exposure and I doubt that she will say anything like she was going to work on the marriage but now is not going to. I imagine that because that is my nature. In other words, it's easy for me to assume the worst outcome. In this case, that being she really is checked out regardless of the affair and really is done and totally closed off. It's hard to back my mind away from that, but I am comfortable in catastrophizing.

I appreciate the advice.

Melody, or anyone else reading...

I'm curious about something. The OM had initiated no contact. My wife may suspect I know, but hasn't told me about it.

When I finally indicate to her that I want to work on the marriage to reconcile but that requires a no contact forever letter from her to the OM, what do I do when she inevitably says that he's already stopped contact? How do I know, if she chooses to write a letter, that it's meaningful? How do ensure that she just isn't reinforcing the OMs wishes and keeping him in a dominant role?

The principle here with your plan A is that feelings follow actions. You aren’t trying to convince her to change her thinking. Let the changed behaviors change both of your thinking.

You feel like throwing in the towel all the time because you exercise a lack of care. Follow through on your plan tomorrow and you’ll find yourself feeling differently. More supported, more willing to protect your family from OM.

The reason I am assuming she will be furious is because I have been here for 18 years and every person is furious. She might be the first one to not be furious, though!


All affairees are "checked out" when they have an affair. She was checked out before the affair and she is checked out now. However, she did not want to leave the marraige until the affair came along. The REASON she wants to leave the marriage is due to the affair. As far as we know, she and the OM came up with a plan to leave their spouses after they put on a show of "I tried everything and it didn't work out." After that, the plan is to get together. Dr Harley has been in this business for 45 years and this is what he says:


This has been my exact observation in the 18 yrs I have been here. So, don't let her gaslight you that she is leaving the marriage because of the problems. She didn't want a divorce before the affair, after all.

You would ask her to write a letter that is approved by you BOTH and sent together. It is a good will gesture to you.

here


[from SAA, pg 58]

OW, I want you to know that out of respect and love for my wife and children, I have come to realize that I must never see or talk to you again. My relationship with you was a cruel indulgence that BS did not deserve. While I cannot completely repay BS for the pain I caused her, I will do my best to become the husband she has been missing. I care a great deal for my family and I would not want to do anything to risk their happiness. I will not make any further contact with you and I do not want you to make any contact with me. Please respect my desire to end our relationship.

Sincerely, XXXXX

I would also keep your eyes peeled for continued contact with her OM. What likely happened is the OM's wife probably woke up and told him to stop communicating with your W. So they just went further underground. The fact that she is not devastated about being dumped makes me suspect they are still in contact and they have a PLAN.

Does she act like someone who was just dumped by the man she "loves?" It doesn't sound like it to me.

I can't tell you how many affairees play this game of "the marriage just went bad" and quietly back out of their marriages when there is really an affair in the works. They try to make it look they "tried" by going to "counseling" a few times. Then when they are safely separated and the divorce filed, they start openly seeing the affair partner. They try to make it look like they left the marriage and then hooked up, when it is almost ALWAYS the other way around.

I want to know more about not exercising care. You referred to extraordinary care in a prior post. I'm missing something here.

The OMs wife and I discussed no contact a day or two before the OMW asked the OM to go no contact. He obliged and then set up an appointment for therapy (though OMW didn't characterize it as marriage counseling or other).

In my wife's writings, and I think I linked to this last week, she was exasperated that the OMW had only lasted a week without drinking and wrote further that she and the OM should starting planning the rest of their lives. This writing occurred before OM requested no contact.

I've been looking at her texts and her email that she was using to communicate with the OM and have seen nothing. While she deleted the email from him requesting no contact, she hasn't deleted her reply. This suggests that there have not been additional emails, but she was on top of deleting them before.

The OMs wife was out of town this weekend with their sons for a boy scout camping trip, so there was time for them to contact each other.

Typically they will use a NEW method the spouses don't know about. Some ways would be instagram messages, Facebook PM's, a secret second phone, land lines. There are many ways to go underground.

Also, do you have spyware on her phone? If you don't she could just be deleting the texts. Would you know if he is texting her?

Something I have not done in weeks, I sent her a text after lunch telling her that I hoped she was having a good day and asked if any craziness was happening at work.

I know she's read it, but no response.

No spyware on her phone. I'm paying attention to FB and Messenger. I've done a thorough search and haven't found a second device.

Not sure if the OMW is paying attention to his phone, but she's totally not saavy there and he is. He told my wife that he thinks I've bugged her phone, lol.

Instagram could be another avenue and I have checked that in a while.

What spyware should I consider? And how easily detected is something like that?

A good spyware is webwatcher. Can you get your hands on her phone? She could be sending private messages via instagram and facebook and you would be none the wiser.

The website is here: https://www.webwatcher.com/?gclid=C...jjrN4IhtriKYjFcxOok4cHjdm1RoCUIoQAvD_BwE

She replied: the day was chill foe the most part. I sent you an email. Hope you have time to read it and can respond

Yeah, I can get my hands on it for 10 to 15 minutes.

Was it the email you posted earlier?

Yeah

No exposure yesterday. I'm preparing now to start calling family.

Very anxious given that there's no contact (that I can detect) and that the OM initiated contact and that some of her family already know about the OM (that there's been a strong friendship and the relationship became inappropriate - and her mom knows about romantic feelings being present).

Ugh, and I though this would bebeasier.

Great! The exposure should be THOROUGH and quick. Get it all done today.


Her family only knows what she has told them. That is NOT what we mean by exposure. Wayward spin of the affair IS NOT exposure. The purpose of exposure is to inform them of the TRUTH and ask for their support.


It is not easy, but you will feel FANTASTIC in a few days when it all dies down.

There is not a "friendship." It is an AFFAIR. You need to be completely honest about this. Tell them why it is an affair. She has been spinning it as an friendship.

So this is the basic script I'm using:

Dear friend,

I am writing to ask for your help. On Fathers Day, wife asked for a separation. To that point in time, we were seeking marriage counseling and we were working on improving our marriage. When our family returned from our summer vacation to MI, I found out that wife is having an affair with a married man named Joe Blow, expressing her "love" for him and describing a desire to be sexually intimate with him. I confronted wife and OM together. Following this discovery and confrontation, wife then asked for a divorce.

Wife has told some of you about an "inappropriate relationship" with OM, however, this was not merely overstepping a boundary to share intimate details of the condition of their marriages. Rather, wife chose to engage in an extramarital affair with a married man that included expressing love for one another and sending sexually explicit messages to one another. This affair has been going on since at least March. And despite my confronting both wife and OM in August, this affair has secretly continued.

I am exposing this affair to you because I want to repair this marriage and keep my family together. I am asking that you use your influence to persuade her to end her affair with this married man and to support our marriage. I love your daughter, sister, friend. I married her and she is my wife and I continue to love her and am making changes to be a more caring, attentive husband and companion. I appreciate your time and consideration of this message and request. DrDetroit

A little different from your recommendation. I want to explicit that divorce came up following the discovery of the affair, ie, the affair discovery triggered the divorce talk.

Thanks for that reminder...

Hey, in wifedivorced's thread, you or another person gave him advice regarding how he talked about why he exposed when talking to his wife. He kept saying that he did the exposure because he loved his wife and to save the marriage, but you or another suggested that he stop saying that and say he did exposure for another reason. I can't find that despite looking.

When my wife inevitably asks why I exposed, I think I want to say because we can't repair this marriage while you're having an affair.

That letter and those talking points is PERFECT! You did a good job!

If I remember right, wifedivorcing was trying to SELL exposure to his wife which is a waste of time. It is like trying to reason with a falling down drunk. I wouldn't get bogged down in needless explanations because nothing will work. Rather, I would just say "I'm sorry you are upset, but I felt others should know." Leave it at that.

And remember, don't let her bait you into any fights! You will do great!

So nervous, lol.

I understand! Just suck it up and keep walking! You will be fine..

Oh my goodness ..

Talked to her mom and her dad's new wife, but they were not available at the moment to talk so they're calling me back.

I just texted my brother and three of her closest friends.

What about exposures to the OM's family and friends? DrD, please get this wrapped up. Just jump in with both feet. Have you sent out that email to your family and close friends?

Talked with one of three siblings with a call to another scheduled this evening. Haven't gotten a reply text from the other sibling.

Talked to her father. He's supportive of the marriage and had only heard some rumor of an affair in that it was emotional.

Texted my brother.

Texted two of her close friends. Gonna now text a friend of hers that I think was encouraging of her to wait for the OM. She's the one I think will immediately tell my wife I am exposing. Second thought, she'll be my last text tonight.

Gonna now text some close co-worker friends of hers. This may also result in immediate call to my wife, but not sure.

OM exposures a little later tonight.

Just texted her teacher friends.

Ooof, called her longest term friend and call was interrupted by dinner arriving on her side. Could tell from the beginning of the call that she was unsure why I was calling. We've never talked in the phone and she probably is the one friend who knows the most about my marriage. Definitely not a friendly contact. Didn't get to her requesting her help, just got to describing the affair and that before affair discovery it was marriage counseling and working on the marriage and then following discovery it was divorce talk.

I texted her when we hung to tell her I appreciated her taking the call and if she interested in doing so to give me a call back.

Misjudged this contact and probably should've left it for last. Oh well.

Good job! Please keep it up! Are you at home with your wife?

At home with wife and kids when I made the calls to her brother and sister.

Tried to find OM friends and family on Facebook. No go, there's a profile, but nothing else.

Weird. I saw that her longest term friend texted her just after I contacted her, but it was a pair of emojis and my wife as of last night hadn't replied to her.

So far, not a peep from my wife.

Couple of her friends texted me back with encouraging words though we're unsure how they could help.

First off, I am really surprised you didn't develop a list of his exposure targets before you started exposure, given how EXTREMELY IMPORTANT this is. What about his wife's facebook page? Can you glean a list of family and friends from that?

Somehow you have to get his family's contact information.

The way they can help is reaching out to your wife to try and persuade her to work on her marriage. Will they do that?

This is the most important exposure just behind the OM's wife. Don't skip your greatest weapon against a resumption of the affair.

Just finished talking to her mom who was very supportive of ending the affair and encouraging my wife to work on the marriage.

Her school teacher friends I texted, I haven't heard from them.

Two of her close friends texted me back indicating they supported me, but weren't sure how to help. I'm wimping out in asking to directly contact my wife to encourage her to go no contact with the OM. I'm trying to work up the courage.

Her brother was supportive of me fighting for the marriage, but he isn't buying into getting involved.

Her two older sisters indicated that when they talk to her they'll encourage to go no contact and work on the marriage.

Her dad is supportive of the marriage and will continue to encourage her to work on the marriage.

So far no word from my wife about my calls and texts.

I have a text drafted to my wife about cancelling Mondays mediation and asking her to cancel her parenting class that she scheduled and paid for. I'm unsure whether to communicate that via text or wait until I get home. Although, I need to email the mediator today to cancel so she'll likely see the return email confirming cancelation so she'll know anyway.

yeah!! Good job.


C'mon! Get er done! Courage is a choice. You have made harder choices, Encourage them to support your marriage and persuade your wife to completely give up her affair with this married man.


Very good!


Good! I would get this out of the way.

More critically, you need to finish up your exposures and reach out to the OM's family. That will help ensure he stays away!

Re-texted the 2 friends and more clearly asked that when they talk to my wife to encourage and support her abandoning the affair with the OM and to work on the marriage.

I think one thing I missed in my messages to all of these people was the explicit ask to contact my wife directly.

Ok, sending the text now to my wife about the mediation and parenting classes and will tell her I'll talk to her about it tonight...I'll bring her a bottle of wine, lols.

OMs wife asked me to hold off contacting OM contacts as they have a counseling session scheduled for this afternoon. I'm going to respect that today. Tomorrow, I'll call her back and ask for OMs parents and siblings contact info. I know there's a risk that if my wife knows I am exposing that she may contact the OM and he may call his parents and siblings and feed them some B's about me being a crazy jealous husband.

My wife texted me this morning about working on our next 2 week budget and to let me know that she left it out for me to review.

This is my draft reply:
"I did see it and quickly looked at it. Thanks for working on it, I appreciate it.

Couple of things. I'm cancelling Mondays mediation. I'll email their office after I send this text. Also, please cancel the parenting session you've scheduled and request a refund. I will not be scheduling a parenting session."

Now, there is a LB here in that I should have worked up this budget myself and I didn't. I gotta get in there and start this. It would be a big change for me and I think greatly appreciated by her.

Ok, that makes no sense. Why would it need to be delayed if not to have the opportunity to pre-empt you? This is one of the main reasons it is not a good idea to tell the OM's W that you are going to expose. She doesn't understand the objective and wants to protect him. As such, she may give him a heads up so he can forewarn his family that you are "an insane, abusive, jealous husband that imagines his wife is having affairs."

I don't think you should hold off at all. I think you should expose before she has a chance to forewarn the family members. I would let the OM's wife know later that you had a change of heart.

Keep in mind that this woman does not have a plan to save her marriage, YOU DO. Don't let someone who has no plan, who does not have your best interest at heart, impede your plan to protect your marriage.

I get it, but I don't have access to contact information. Any tips on how to approach getting it without the OMW involved?

Tell me where you have looked for this information so far..

Facebook and other social media sites. LinkedIn for friends. General Google search.

What about the OM's wife facebook page? Do you know his parent's names and where they live?

Tried that, too, and, no, I don't know they're names.

Just keep searching. Try doing a search on facebook of his last name and town and see if you can find some of his relatives. So his wife's facebook has no visible friends or posts with likes?

The OMWs FB page has friends and family, but no parents are listed and it appears to be her family, aunt, cousin, etc. It appears that she hasn't actively used FB for a few years.

Ok, still digging...

Melody, can you check out a prior post just above with my draft text back to my wife re: canceling mediation, please?

Wondering if I should text that or if I should tell her face to face.

Do you see anyone with the same last name as the OM?

Can you soften it up a bit so it doesn't come across like you ordering her around? I made some suggested changes.

Sent the cancel email to mediator and sent the revised text to my wife. Whew...

Good job!

Also, just texted another of her girlfriends. This is the one I think who will let Sarah know that I am exposing. I followed the text by letting her know I'd rather talk on the phone and to give me a call when she has some time to.

This is the same girlfriend that my wife was texting to about not waiting for Lincoln forever. Ironically, several months ago, I saw a text from this lady telling my wife about talking to an old high school flame, him saying nice things about her, and I think, iirc, he sent her a flower or flowers. My wife's response was, "hot". Sheesh

Just reached out to another girlfriend of hers. I saw a text exchange between these two wherein the gf, who is married, refers to a lucky break because she found out that her crush had a history of abusive behaviors. The implication I drew was that she might be stepping out on her own husband who has some sort of disability.

Huh, she texted right back and said she'd call in a hour.

Reply from my wife to my text about canceling mediation:

i just saw the email about meditation. Does this mean that you think the best thing for our family is a divorce where we have seperate lawyers and we arent working to cooperate and find solutions that best support our boys?

So many ways to reply...

Of course, I don't think divorce is the best thing. There is and we can work toward what is best for the boys by working on our marriage and remain committed and in love with each other.

I feel so dumb writing this kind of stuff as she continues hammering me for a divorce.

"Divorce is devastating to kids. That is not something I want for them."

Send her this: https://www.verywellfamily.com/psychological-effects-of-divorce-on-kids-4140170

This is very manipulative of her to say. She wants to tear apart your marriage and your children's family and is acting like you are the CAUSE because you won't cooperate with her intended destruction. Do you see how manipulative that is?

She very much does not want to be blamed for her destructive behavior. Don't oblige her there. What she is doing will be DEVASTATING TO YOUR CHILDREN. Don't mince words about that. And your kids should know she wants to tear apart their family over nothing.

"If you want to rip apart our kid's family, you won't get my cooperation. I cannot stop you, but I won't help you do that. I care too much for my kids."

I wouldn't say over nothing. Our marriage has been tough for her.

This one is right up my alley. Seems harsh, but it shines the light right back on her choice.

The affair is "nothing." She is ending the marriage over the affair.

She needs that splash of reality. In her selfish fog she hasn't really thought about the kids. Affairees are notoriously self centered and have tunnel vision. Your kids WON'T be ok. They will never be the same.

Talked to another gf who acknowledged that my wife was not honest with her about the relationship with the OM. She also said she's supportive of ending the affair and said what I was doing was "bold". But she also said she's my wife's friend and would support what my wife wanted to do, although she didn't think divorce was the solution.

I'm gonna send your suggested text about ripping the family apart.

Here's my text reply:

A divorce is not the best thing for our family and is not a solution. And it isnt supportive of our boys.

If you want to rip apart our children's family, you won't get my cooperation. I cannot stop you, but I won't help you do that. I care too much for our children.

Surprisingly, no reaction from my wife, yet, on the calls and texts I have sent. Maybe she's still unaware?

Yeah! She sounds like a good friend.

Does the OM's wife know you want to expose to the OM's family?

Yes, I tipped that out. Thought I was being thoughtful and considerate. I don't think she is trying to protect him as much as protect their shot at a good marriage counseling session that they have this afternoon.

I will continue trying to find his contact info and will talk to the OMW tomorrow and request it.

So far, she has been persuaded by the approach I am taking with my wife and that encouraged her to request of him the NC with my wife.

We'll see how she responds in the morning.

Good deal. But I would not give up your search because she might not help you. The marriage counseling would not be a reason to delay it so I am concerned about her willingness to help.

My wife's reply to my text:

"Then we can live as roommates untilbthey are old enough to be out of the house. It is unfortunate that you treated our marriage and family they way you did over the last 16 years. i will not reengage in a relationship with you after all the fear anger hurtvand pain you have put me and the boys through. Our marriage is over but I am open to coparenting under one roof as long as you arecsafe safe person to be around."



This roommates thing she has...frustrating. Then we can live as roommates... Uh, no. We can live like husband and wife or we don't live together. I won't dent myself happiness to have a marriage at all costs here.

Man, when I get replies like this it just saps all the energy and thought that I could put into trying to meet her emotional needs. How do I try to meet emotional needs with a wall like this? Ugh...

You know what? There is nothing stopping your wife from getting a divorce. She doesn't need your cooperation to do so.


Ok, I don't want you to be discouraged. You are actually in a better position today than 2 weeks ago, the OM is gone [we hope!] and you have taken away your divorce . I know it is hard for you to see now but you are moving in a positive direction. She is still fogged out, but that won't be the case for long as she withdraws from the affair. AS she withdraws, you have to absolutely be on your BEST BEHAVIOR and draw her back to you. You cannot afford any lovebusters. No angry outbursts. The little opening will be through small talk, so just take it slow and really focus on being as pleasant as possible.

That doesn't mean you allow her to roll over you. It doesn't mean that you back down on your stance on divorce. Stay firm but always be polite, firm and LOVING.

I want you to respond to her text and call her bluff:

"I understand I can't stop you from getting a divorce but I want you to know I am so sorry I made you feel that way. Just know that I love you and our kids and am very committed to being the very best husband and father."

Just know that no one expects you live as roommates. If things don't change in a few months, you have other options. But I think you have a great chance of turning this around if you can avoid lovebusters and look for every opportunity to meet her needs. Focus on conversation!

Follow up text from my wife:

"I need some space from you this evening. I will be meeting Leti and Kathy later. i will prep dinner for 6."

I texted these two women last night.

Here's the funny thing... I know that they have been asking her to go out for happy hour tonight since last week.

Maybe she does need space from me this evening. But, I think that's a convenient excuse to do something that she was planning to do all along.

What bluff am I calling? Forgive me if this should be obvious to me...

The DIVORCE. She is acting like you are stopping her from getting a divorce. You aren't! So you need to send her the clear message that you are not stopping her.

When OM is not an option, divorce means she is on her own. That is not what she had in mind when she pictured 'her' divorce.

DrD, ask yourself WHY she is not getting a divorce now? It's not like she needs her husband's permission.

I submit that she was secretly RELIEVED you stopped cooperating so she can pretend like she can't get a divorce now. She didn't really want a divorce or she would have done it.

Well, again, I suppose that shes not pursuing a divorce because she can't afford it and believes that she can't support herself and the kids.

I just sent a version of the text that you proposed, Melody. Thanks for clarifying for me.

I want to text her to say have a nice evening out with her girlfriends and that I'll see here when she gets home.

She could find a way if she were serious. Everyone does. We have had many women manage to get divorced even though they were completely destitute. And how was she planning on supporting herself anyway?

Good idea!

Just got an email from her - youngest boy is using her phone.

"Youngest would like to go to the school dance from 6-8. He is with friend and has my phone. There is pesto, chicken and mozzarella in the fridge and noodle in the garage. Dinner is on you tonight.

I have the day off tomorrow and would like to take the boys on a day trip to the beach. I know this is last minute but I thought I had to work.

Thank you"

Are you asking my opinion on what your response should be?

Nah, just posting it.

So, she knows that I reached out to her family and friends.

Her brother texted her to say that I reached out to them and would be talking to her dad and sisters. He also said he thought I was getting help from a lawyer. Wanted to say good luck to my wife but didn't think that sounded right.

2 of her girlfriends reaches out to her. One just to say that I had texted her. The other shared what I texted and told my wife that she told she didn't feel comfortable trying to influence her. This one also noted to my wife that she had not seen someone make my wife happy like the OM. She lives in AZ and doesn't see my wife so she has heard what my wife has told her.

Her longest term friend also texted her. Told my wife that living under the same roof while in a relationship with the OM would not be safe for my wife. At least she discouraged the affair while living with me. But this friend is not a fan of mine. My wife told this friend that she was sleeping on the couch and it was better than choking down the vomit at the thought of me touching her. Ugh.

The last friend that I talked to today and who sounded supportive really isnt. She lied to me about having heard from me first. She texted my wife before calling me. In a follow up text she told my wife she was happy that she was finding someone who made her toes curl. My wife replied that the affair has ended and the OM is supporting his wife while she tries to get sober.

My wife has said nothing to me about my exposure and asking for help. She has indicated to those reaching out that I am contacting all of friends about the affair and asking for support to repair the marriage.

I feel horrible.

It doesn't feel like some I talked to, her girlfriends mainly, are willing to help end the affair or support fixing the marriage. At least 2 expressed support for her finding someone like the OM.

I'd like to reach back to them and ask why they are supporting divorce and an affair.

It feels rather hopeless. I have to resolve myself to being pleasant and trying to engage with her but wow that's gonna be hard. Seeing how she replies to her friends it just feels hopeless.

I know this is a marathon and not a sprint, but damn.

I am not surprised at some of this. Most cheaters have some enabler friends who don't really care about them. Her friends don't care about your children either. Don't let this bother you! Having to explain why she is having an affair with someone else's husband is not pleasant for cheaters. Maybe one of her "friends" will get through to her and have an influence. You can't ever know who that might be in advance though.

If your wife really ends her affair and comes out of the fog, she won't remember the enablers fondly. She will remember they kicked her under the bus at a time when she most needed support.

That's what I would expect. But I'm thinking my wife may not be in that fog and really is finished.

Thank you for all of your supportive words and encouragement to take this path.

But the way, it was interesting that her brother told her that they heard my side of the story. I didn't provide a side. I did provide the facts and my aspirations and intent.

Her actions say the opposite. Her actions say she is not done. Her actions say she is in the fog. All affairees are in the fog. My concern with her is that the affair is not really over because she does not seem like someone who has just ended an affair. Please keep your eyes peeled for more contact. They may have gone further underground. This makes me think there is a PLAN in place:


The plan might be to pretend like the affair is over, wrap things up in their "bad" marriages and then get back together once really separated.

What do you see from her that makes you believe contact has ended? Does she seem to be in withdrawal?

She exhibited the withdrawal in the weeks after I discovered the affair. Over the last two weeks she mentioned nothing about the OM requesting no communication and hasn't behaved as she did early on with the crying, the off handed remarks about losing a friend, etc.

Keep in mind that she was diagnosed with add recently and started Adderall last week.

But withdrawal doesn't happen until all contact ends. Wasn't she still in contact with him until very recently? She would have still been able to get her fix with that contact.

Also, I am concerned about the loose ends of your exposure. TYou posted:

I thought you had finished up her family? Are there others that are not completed in addition to the OM's family? If there are, I would get these knocked out quickly tomorrow so you can move onto next steps.

Yep. Initially, I think there was no contact for 2 weeks and then they started up again culminating with their attempt to have a picnic lunch together 2 weeks ago.

So she was an emotional wreck immediately following discovery and then when they got back in touch, those emotional outbursts went away.

Oh, I did wrap that up yesterday and got her mom today.

Her brother texted her last night after I talked to him but hadn't yet talked to her mom and sisters.

So you have spoken to her father and those other sisters?

Yes. Mom, dad, brother and two sisters and 8 of her friends.

Ok, so if they have truly ended contact now, wouldn't it stand to reason you would see signs of withdrawal again? I would expect to see that in a huge way.

Gotcha! Thanks for the clarification.

My point in all this to emphasize that you should really be creative in spying on her because I don't believe this is over. I suspect they have a PLAN to get together in the future and have either gone further underground OR have a plan to meet in the future. If they have decided to break up temporarily, they won't be able to stay apart for long.

So you need to make sure you have spyware on her phone and perhaps even a voice activated recorder in a key spot.

This is another reason why it is so critical for you to expose to the OM's family. It will ruin the future of their relationship if she can't show her face around his family. If they know she is a married woman who had an affair with the OM it will be harder to introduce her into his family, which will greatly impair future plans. This is why exposure to the OP's family is so effective.

Working from home today and wife and kids have the day off from school.

Wife is clearly distant this morning, even sensing a bit of irritation. We talked about the next 2 week budget and when I pointed out that we didn't need $300 for mediation, she commented that cancelling it was unfortunate and that we could have avoided getting our own lawyers, increasing the cost to the family, and not had a fighting divorce. She asked me if I really wanted to get separate lawyers and impose that cost on the family and have a battle rather than cooperating. I simply replied that no, I don't want to have to hire lawyers or get a divorce and I'm sorry that feels that way.

I really do need a better response to when she drops comments about hiring individual lawyers. I suppose I could have said that I am not the one imposing the various costs and consequences of divorce on the family and that rather than divorcing, I'd prefer to keep the family together and build a better marriage.

One weird thing I caught in her text exchange with one of her friends last night was her friend saying this exposure thing was weird, like it was out of a movie. My wife replied by noting that she felt sorry for the awkwardness I was creating among her family and friends. But she's still insisting to her friends that she has not seen the OM since August and they stopped contact 2 weeks ago. Of course, she's not telling them that she was actively planning a date with the OM 2 weeks ago, but maybe that doesn't count because they didn't successfully meet. Lol

There is not going to be any answer that she will like other than complete cooperation with her destructive objectives. I would just keep saying "I am not interested in getting a divorce. I can't stop you from doing anything, though." Just be consistent and don't get defensive.

It is a GOOD thing that your wife is put in a position to defend herself. That is what you want! Now, move forward and raise some hell with the dirtbag OM! You are doing great!

Even though your wife has some dirtbag fake friends, it helps that she knows that others know all about her affair.

She made a comment about me being on her phone a lot, ie snooping and I said no, not really. Her response was funny how you got all my contacts and then I reminded her that she let me use her Google login on my phone for Pokemon go so my youngest could play the account that he played on her phone. I also showed her how the contacts were absorbed into my contacts.

Unfortunately, she's doing this in front of the boys so I have to restrain myself.

But I'll keep being a broken record about not wanting to destroy the family with divorce and remind her that marriage is not about secrecy and hiding affairs.

Did you get spyware on her phone?

No chance, yet, should get a chance this weekend, though. I'm anxious about paying for such software.

What makes you anxious about that?

My wife emailed me this morning:

Dear DrD,

I believe the best solution to help us through a divorce is mediation. On Thursday, Oct 10 you cancelled our mediation appointment for Monday the 14th. You cancelled the appointment without my consent. I found out about the cancellation via email.

I am aware that you have contacted many of my friends, family, can co-workers about our relationship. I do not know how you got all their contact information. Many friends and co-works expressed how awkward your message made them feel which I had to apologize for.

I have offered several times to co-parent under one roof, as long as it is a safe and healthy place for all of us. You have stated that this is not an option for you. Which again leaves 2 options, connection in our marriage or divorce. I cannot reconnect with you. There is too much damage to our relationship due to the years of emotionally abusive behaviors on your part.

If you are unwilling to seek mediation and work together as loving parents to our boys and enter into a cooperative parenting relationship, then I will have to hire a lawyer. I don't want to put that strain, both financially and emotional, on our family. We can work together as parents to help our boys through this transition as thoughtfully and compassionately as possible.

The boys and I will be taking the "Kids First' classes together. I hope that you will join us, as it will show the boys that they are supported by both of us during this time.


Sincerely,

Wifes first and last name


I'm really starting to get frustrated about the money situation here. She wants to use our joint account to pay for this Kids First class, $280, and I am not interested in sending our kids to a class that prepares them for divorce.

Also, I texted her about the mediation cancellation before cancelling. I love how she's suggesting that I needed her consent to cancel a "joint" mediation session. Perhaps I should have sent the mediator an email indicating that I wouldn't be attending. Unfortunately, had I gone that route, I suspect that she would have attended and blown that $300.

Having to pay for it and not a small amount, either.

Gotcha. It looks like it is $129.

"Dear WW, thanks for sending me your views. As I explained yesterday, I am not interested in putting our kids through a divorce. Divorce is devastating to kids and that is not something I want to do to them. I have been reading articles about it and found this one: https://www.verywellfamily.com/psychological-effects-of-divorce-on-kids-4140170

I certainly can't stop you from filing for divorce, though. I hope we can work this out without going that route because I know we could have a great marriage if we both tried.

I am not agreeable to putting the kids in a "Kids First" class because that will just scare them and cause confusion. Maybe if the court ordered it, but we are not in such a position now."

Thanks for the suggestion.

I'd really like to zing her on the part she keeps suggesting and that is I am not choosing a safe and healthy environment for our children.

No zinging!! It is not "safe and healthy" to rip apart their family. Do you see how fogged out she is? She is ripping apart their family over her own selfish interests and lecturing you about a "safe and healthy" environment. I don't want you to say that to her but I want to point out foggy she is.

That article doesn't seem very helpful...it notes that many children seem to bounce back and goes on further to suggest that staying together for the sake of the kids isn't a healthy choice.

Here's a better one: https://www.divorcestatistics.info/some-devastating-effects-of-divorce-in-the-usa.html

My revised reply:
Thanks for sending me your views. As I explained yesterday, I am not interested in putting our kids through a divorce. Divorce is devastating to kids and that is not something I want to do to them. I have been reading articles about it and found this one: https://www.divorcestatistics.info/some-devastating-effects-of-divorce-in-the-usa.html

I am not agreeable to putting the kids in a "Kids First" class because that will just scare them and cause confusion. Maybe if the court ordered it, but we are not in such a position now.

I certainly can't stop you from filing for divorce, though. I hope we can work this out without going that route because I know we could have a great marriage if we both tried.

I can imagine that it was awkward for you to acknowledge the nature of your affair to your family and friends. Although, have you thought about how unpleasant it was for me to talk to talk to our family and friends about your continuing affair with the OM and request their support to stop the affair?

Very nice!!

Following her email to me she asked if we could talk about finishing the basement because if I expected her to live here as a roommate then she'd need her own room...

I wonder if I should just tell her that I am not expecting her to live here as a roommate and reiterate that while I can't stop her from divorcing me that I'd like to work on our marriage and be a loving husband.

Absolutely, I would just tell her you aren't expecting her to live like a roommate. I thought she wanted a divorce?

Is she suggesting that you all live in the same house while divorced?

Emailed here:
Thanks for sending me your views. As I explained yesterday, I am not interested in putting our kids through a divorce. Divorce is devastating to kids, as I have experienced it, and that is not something I want to do to them. I have been reading articles about it and found this one: https://www.divorcestatistics.info/some-devastating-effects-of-divorce-in-the-usa.html

I am not agreeable to putting the kids in a "Kids First" class because that will just scare them and cause confusion. Maybe if the court ordered it, but we are not in such a position now.

I don't have an expectation that you will live here as a roommate. I certainly can't stop you from filing for divorce, though. I hope we can work this out without going that route because I know we could have a great marriage if we both tried.

I can imagine that it was awkward for you to acknowledge the nature of your affair to your family and friends. Although, have you thought about how unpleasant it was for me to talk to talk to our family and friends about your continuing affair with OM and request their support to stop the affair?

Love

This is weird. She talks that she wants a divorce and even scheduled a mediation appointment. But then she says stuff like, "if you expect me to live here as a roommate, then I need my own room" which implies that she won't divorce me, although in her email this morning, she says she'll be forced to hire an attorney.

Is this the fog? Or is she running an angle I can't see, yet?

It is the FOG. She is very confused. She doesn't know what she wants. I think the roommate thing might be a ploy to scare you because she knows that upsets you. This is why I suggested you treat her like a falling down drunk until she sobers up. You can't reason with someone like that, but you CAN politely and lovingly hold your ground as she sobers up. You will see the fog wear off as the weeks go by *IF* contact has truly ended. I don't think she has given up the idea of the OM, though. I see no signs of withdrawal and that is why I want you to expose to his family! That will ruin the future hopes of an affair for a wayward wife.

Here's her response to my email yesterday including that article:

I have read the article and I agree that divorce is hard on children. However, I believe what leads up to the divorce is just as damaging. In our case, what has lead to the dissolve of this marriage is a history or emotional abusive behaviors from you along with my affair with OM. We have not demonstrated a healthy connected marriage for our boys. This has long term devastating effects on them as well. As I have stated several times, we do not need to have a traumatic divorce, we can go through mediation and communicate how best to dissolve our marriage in a way that best supports the boys. This marriage is over, it is just a matter of what route you we will take to finalize the legal end.

As for you reaching out to my friends, family and co-works, I believe I stated that it was an awkward text for them, not for me. Some of my friends have reached out to me with concern but not one has encouraged me to stay married to you. They have seen how lonely and miserable this marriage has made me feel.

Of course some her friends would not directly tell her to stay married to me. All they have gotten is Sarah's miserablness and rarely ever any good stuff.

I wonder if her family has contacted her and encouraged her to stay or divorce. Maybe I should follow up with her mom, dad, and sisters.

"Thanks for reading the article. Our marriage has not been happy for either of us recently, but I don't believe the solution is divorce. Rather, I think the solution is to work to turn things around, not to have an affair. That sends a terrible message to our boys. I am not planning on having any divorce, traumatic or otherwise. That is your idea. I would rather work to make our marriage a happy place for us all. I am committed to doing that."

I wouldn't bother unless you forgot to ask them to reach out to her.

What about the 2 follow ups: getting spyware on her phone and exposing to the OM's family?

Have you exposed to your children?

Yes. Both kids know that my wife was engaged in an appropriate relation ship with the father of their close friends. My 12 year old knows that it was an affair which means that she was cheating on me and our family.

Still trying to get OM family information. No go on the spyware, I'm just not feeling comfortable doing it.

Here's another email from her this morning:

Dear DrD,

We have ben married for more than 16 years and in a relationship for 20. The majority of this time has been an unhealthy and detrimental relationship for me. I have attempted several times to leave the relationship but you have always asked me to stay and give it one more try. You have made promises before about how you are committed to making things better, but those changes where never sustainable and you always reverted to your abusive behaviors. It is time to finally break the cycle and end this relationship.

This marriage has been abusive for so long that our marriage counselor suggested I get treated for PTSD with EMDR. You were in the session when she made this suggestion, isn't that alarming to you? Maybe you don't understand what marriage to you has been like. Maybe that is why you don't understand why I can't give it one more try. It is over, as it should been back in 1999, the first time I tried to get out from the abusive cycle.

As for the affair, OM has asked me not to have contact with him. OMW and OM are working on their marriage. I have not seen OM since August and I haven't had any communication since Sept 29.

The boys know about the classes starting next week. I fully intend to take them as it will help them develop some cooping strategies for the changes that are coming to our family structure. Again, I am asking that you reconsider mediation as I believe it is the most cooperative solution for the boys.

The objective here is not to make you "feel comfortable," it is to spy on her so you will know what she is doing. You KNOW she is hiding things from you that you have a RIGHT to know about. No spouse has the right to the privacy to destroy her spouse behind his back. Your spouse is under the spell of an affair and is doing everything in her power to destroy your marriage and your children's family. You should be VERY "uncomfortable" about that and should do what you can do protect your marriage and your children.

You need to get over your discomfort real quick, because you need to know what she is doing and saying for the sake of your self preservation.


What does she mean about a marriage counselor saying your marriage has been abusive?

DrD, you need to understand that your marriage is under assault. You need every weapon at your disposal. Half measures will avail you nothing. Spying is one of the most basic steps a betrayed spouse can take to win this war and protect himself. Keep in mind that you have a right to know what she is doing and saying because it directly affects you and your children. She has been incredibly destructive to you all. You can't afford to skip this step. NO ONE feels comfortable spying, but that is not the objective. You are in a situation where you don't have the luxury of feeling comfortable. You are at war.

I don't recall that our marriage counselor said it was abusive. The issue of EMDR I thought came up when I my wife and I told the marriage counselor that I was doing EMDR.

I think what my wife is saying is that in her mind the marriage has been abusive and the marriage counselor suggested EMDR. Maybe I should follow up with our marriage counselor to see if she recalls saying it was abusive or that the nature of our marriage suggested that PTSD could be present.

Ok, I'm on it. I wonder if I can get away with a 3-month pkg rather than purchasing an entire year.

She finally told me yesterday, verbally, that the OM requested NC and that they hadn't talked since late September. She told me this because the OM and his family had given us a table and yesterday my wife suggested that we ought to give it back and that sh'ed leave it up to me to do so. I replied that she should just email the OM or OMW to arrange for pickup/delivery and that's when she told me about the OMs request for NC. Probably a LB in there and I should've have either stayed quiet or suggested that they'd let us know if they wanted it back.

Good man! Just start off with a 3 month package and then you can decide.


Do you want to keep the table? If you don't, I would just donate it to Goodwill or sell it on craigslist. I sure wouldn't want that in my house.

"Dear W, I do remember the counselor suggesting that you might try EMDR because I was planning on doing so. I do know that you didn't want to separate or divorce until you started your affair with OMW's husband.. [insert OMW's name] If you want to leave the marriage, that is your prerogative, Just know that I want us to have a happy marriage and I believe I have a plan that can help us both if you will commit to ending your affair permanently. Your affair has the been the most painful thing that has ever happened to me. We have hurt each other so much and I am committed to making you happy in a relationship that is free from anger, judgement and dishonesty. But it has to be a 2 way street.

Like I said earlier, I am not open to taking the boys to a parenting class. If it ever gets to the mediation stage, I would prefer to let lawyers hammer that out and avoid conflict. That is the most cooperative solution in my opinion."

I checked in with our marriage counselor and asked about emdr coming up in our sessions. Her reponse:

Wife recalled it as abusive and felt herself becoming triggered, worrying about past events happening again, and feeling disconnected due to past events.
EMDR can unpack anxiety provoking situations so that it does not create the same somatic distress when there are reminders of it in the present. We can notice feelings of current anger, sadness, worry without it being exacerbated by every past time of feeling that same way. When there is current safety in a relationship, we can then remember that past events are “over” and we can move forward with less worry. I am not in a place to diagnose her with anything and am glad she connected with treatment. EMDR can help us process any past events, present triggers, and future worries related to control/choice (ie I am powerless, I have no choice), safety ( ie I am unsafe or something bad is going to happen), or responsibility (I am not enough/important/loveable/etc). I have had success with partners who utilized EMDR and found benefit from just the calming skills and resources alone and/or processing past events to bring in new information about themselves and the other person in order to lower the distress and change the belief about the event (ie believing they are important and ok).

I didn't think our counselor called my behavior abusive, but it appears that my wife is recalling it that way.

Rewriting history?

Thanks for the proposed response.

I don't know if she wanted or did not want a divorce until the affair started with the OM. I do know that up until I discovered the affair, we were doing counseling and talking about reconciling, in other words, that reconciliation was an option, a goal.

You don't know that she did because never brought it up. She can always rewrite history but the proof is in the pudding. Look at her actions, not her words.

Exactly! And I will add to this counselors information about EMDR. As we have seen over and over again on this forum over the years, a spouse does not need "counseling" to erase bad memories. They need a happy marriage. The mind does not wander to the past when it is happy in the present. I have personally experienced this phenomenon and have seen it played out over and over on this forum over the years. You can literally replace bad memories with a good PRESENT.

Then in my return email to her I should note exactly that. That we can make a new and better present to replace those bad memories.

Yeah, I know, but getting beat over the head with "I want to divorce" is tough.

If the affair isn't the reason for the divorce, why was it never brought up until after her affair began?

Classic affairee behavior: always blame bad behavior, affair, divorce, etc on the other spouse to keep him off balance. It is classic behavior to rewrite history to demonize the other spouse in an attempt to justify the affair. This is why you need to focus on her ACTIONS. She never brought up divorce until AFTER her affair began. Dr Harley has counseled thousands of couples over 45+ years in his professional career.

here

Wife says tonight that she called about the Kids First classes to postpone and said that the classes were non-refundable. She also said that she talked to the kids about the classes and I got snarky and said well, I'm glad you talked to them alone about it. Her reply was,well, I tried to get you to talk withbisball about it.

Once again, she said that 12 years of marriage was hard on her. I said I understood and that neither one of us wants that marriage.

Lastly, she said that she waiting to save enough money for an attorney since it looks like we're going that route rather than mediation.

It's so hard for me to engage in any conversation around this. I just sorta [censored] down.

Lol, was supposed to be "shut"...

Don't be snarky! I think this would be very confusing to your kids since you may never get divorced. That's a hard burden to put on them. This should happen if and when divorce is ever filed. She has been talking divorce for a long time but has never gone to the trouble of filing. I feel badly for your kids.

I need to learn how to meet her emotional needs even when she has closed herself off and keep talking up divorce. When she brings up how hurt she's been in the marriage or when she starts talking about divorcing, I just kind of [censored] down. I'm taking advantage of these opportunities to do something, to try to connect.

It's a good opportunity to have a conversation. Just don't be snarky and stay away from lovebusters. You DO understand the concept of lovebusters, right? One lovebuster will undo the effect of many lovebank deposits.

EVEN SO, you need get that spyware on her phone to find out what she is doing. I am not convinced at all that contact has ended.Even a wetbrain is clever enough to delete text messages and emails. She DOES NOT act like someone who is in withdrawal and has given up on her affair.

Did you read the book Surviving an Affair? I thought you told me you had ordered it. Will you read through this series of articles about the Basic Concepts? It's real important that you understand how romantic love is created, sustained and how it ruined. https://www.marriagebuilders.com/basic-concepts.htm

I understand the concept of love busters, like disrespectful judgments and angry outbursts, so I can avoid those. More important to me is how turn shift from a complaint, eg, this marriage has been so bad for me, to a conversation that might meet an emotional need. Maybe that complaint (and I'm not intending to minimize what she's experienced and expressing as a mere complaint) isn't a jumping off point.

I am a complete idiot in this space of intimate conversation.

Reading SAA now.

The problem I am having is in application. In other words, in SAA, both Sue and Kevin were in an ongoing affair and knew they were. My wife, as of now, considers the affair done since the OM requested no further communication. Neither my wife or the OM has written that no contact letter that Harley has in SAA. Hence, as I am reading SAA, I see Sue and Kevin taking that first step of a no contact letter which is really a step toward reconciliation. I don't see the equivalency here.

My wife, although not displaying signs of ending the affair, appears to be no contact (I'm working on confirming). Should I be requesting her to draft or do I draft a no contact letter like that in SAA? The no contact letter is really a first step toward reconciliation, but my wife has zero desire to move toward reconciliation. So I imagine she'd just say no to a request to send a no contact letter because the no contact letter indicated that she's turning back to the marriage.

I think I'll reach out to the OMW to encourage her to draft, with her husband, a no contact letter to my wife and encourage a very clear communication that the relationship for OM is over and he's turning to the marriage. I wonder if that changes my wife's calculus to receive that letter, in other words, the fantasy of him ultimately being available disappears, hence, reality intrudes and incentivizes reconciliation for her.

Oh, over the weekend I set up a new sole checking account. I'm prepping to have my direct deposit changed from our joint to my checking account.

Does this action fit in Plan A?

It IS meeting her emotional needs to listen to her complaints and take them seriously. You should address them as she brings them up. Don't debate or argue about it, but get her perspective so you can do better in the future. Remember, a complaint is an opportunity for improvement in a good marriage and an irritation in a bad marriage.

Who said every situation was the same? They are not. The objective of reading the book is to understand WHY affairs happen and to know how to recover your marriage. It will help you understand some of the advice we are giving. Just because you are in a different phase from Sue and Kevin does not mean the book does not apply.


No, you are not at that point yet. The affair is very likely still in place. And of course, your marriage may never recover. But you can do everything in your power to bring it to that stage. If not, you would get a divorce.


Yes and no. It might help a little bit, but will be meaningless if there is a plan in place to meet up in the future. They may have taken a temporary time out and they may still be in contact. The fact that she is not in withdrawal makes me think something is still very active.

The fantasy of him being available will be ruined if you expose the affair to his family!

That's fine! It is a good idea to protect your finances if you have a spouse who is making divorce threats.

P.S. regarding her complaints, I do understand some complaints from a foggy spouse are often manufactured or exaggerated. They typically rewrite history. Some of her complaints might not be serious, but you should treat them as such and not turn it into an argument.

I'm working to get contact info from the OMW for the OMs family.

I'll ask her if the OM is displaying any signs of withdrawal or frustration related to going no contact.

Regarding her comments and complaints about the nature of our marriage... When she does express these, should I be asking for more information? For example, if she says that during the marriage I didn't demonstrate that I cared about her, rather than arguing that I did, should I ask her what I or am doing that causes her think that I don't care about her or the marriage?

Ask her to tell you what would have been the best ways to show you care. Was it a lack of affection? Are you very affectionate? Just say "I am sorry I made you feel that way and I want to learn from my mistakes. What could I have done better to demonstrate care?"

Thank you. This kind of stuff doesn't occur to me instinctively. That admission probably sheds some light on the troubles in my marriage.

Sent her this afternoon your proposed email response that you suggested yesterday with a small modification.

Would she be willing to fill out this questionnaire for you? You could say something like "It would help me if you could fill out this questionnaire so I can understand what I did wrong." https://www.marriagebuilders.com/file.htm?id=12-C20AD4D76FE97759AA27A0C99BFF6710

Unlikely. I imagine that she'd laugh at me.

Ok. Just see if you can get her talking so you have a better understanding about why she felt uncared for. Let her talk and you listen with no defensiveness.

Unfortunately, I'm not sure that's even a possibility now. Her email reply to me this evening:

"There is not postponing or cancelling the class. The affair is over per OMs request. I cannot do what you are asking me to do. I cannot be the wife you need me to be. There is too much damage. I have given you all I can and all the 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th ...chances to change so we could have a happy life together. Each time there has been change I have given myself fully to this relationship and every time you have reverted to your abusive ways, leaving me hurt and alone. I'm not going to be burned by you again.

I know the affair with OM hurt you and OMW. I am sorry for that. I should have ended our relationship before falling in love with another man. I wish I would have been stronger and done things the right way, divorce first.

I have wanted a divorce for a long time, it wasn't until the affair with OM that I realized how truly unhappy I was with you. Even though the relationship with OM is over, the feeling that I could be happy in a relationship lingers.

I have no idea how I'm going to hire a lawyer but I will figure out a way to be free from this relationship.

I am asking you, begging you, will you please work with me in a way that we can still co-parent together with kindness. We don't have to have a divorce like your parents. We can be parents that are divorced but still work together for the boys. One way or another this marriage will end, we have to decide how we will treat each other as we enter into co-parents. Do you want it to be a nasty fight or can we start communicating with a mediator to find solutions to manage the end of this marriage?"

Feeling sad and hopeless.

Until you are divorced, lots of things are possible.

DrD, just stick to your plan and stay in a perfect Plan A. No lovebusters, no snarkiness, no nothing! You are not suggesting a "nasty fight," it sounds like she is. Don't respond to this. You have already told her how you feel. If it comes up in discussion say: "I am not interested in divorce. If you are, then I can't stop you. "<-----be a broken record!

She wants you to do all the work for her. If she wants to get a divorce, there is nothing stopping her. Just don't help her. Not helping her gives you more time to change your behavior and attract her back. You have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

You can't afford ONE lovebuster, so please make sure you know what they are. Lovebusters

I saw in her browsing history that she was generally searching for divorce attorneys and searching for or about how to divorce a spouse who doesn't want to get divorced.

I hear you on perfect Plan A.

Time is on your side.....

She ADMITS what I have been telling you all along right here. She never wanted a divorce until she had an affair. THE AFFAIR IS THE REASON SHE WANTS A DIVORCE. I promise you there is a plan in place to hook up with him in the future. That is why she wants the divorce. She is very addicted to the OM and won't give him up so easily.

Making sure this affair is ended gives you a chance at saving this. That is why exposure to the OM's family, which you are dragging out, is so important. Dragging out an exposure makes it less impactful so I am unsure why you are doing this.

An affair is an addiction very much like an alcohol or narcotic addiction. When you are drunk the rest of your life looks boring and intolerable IN COMPARISON. This is why adulterers always rewrite history. Life pales in comparison to the HIGH that comes with an affair. This is why you need to hold out and make sure the affair is really over. If her affair is really over - which I doubt - she will sober up and the comparison to a fantasy won't be there. BUT, you need to be an attractive place to land as she sobers up from this fantasy,

It is real important that you spy on her and make sure this affair is really over, though. She is not in withdrawal which is very suspicious. And get your exposures done!!

I texted the OMW this morning to check in and say hi. She replied that she thinks we should stop communicating by text so she can focus on her family.

I was hoping to share with her some of my wife's writing, specifically, my wife being highly critical of her for going a week without drinking before relapsing and my wife's desire for her and the OM to plan out their next steps to be together. My wife and the OMW were very close and the OMW says she worries about my wife and still wants to be friendly. I want to shock her out of that but think this avenue of comms is closing.

I'm pretty sure my wife has looked at this website - https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.equitablemediation.com/blog/i-want-a-divorce-but-my-husband-doesnt%3fhs_amp=true - and is following some of the info provided.

Am I anywhere near this guy's zone - https://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php/topics/2515867/1.html

Absent being able to contact the OMs family, which appears unlikely at this point, it seems that the intent of Plan A is met, although, ofc, which is not at all interested in reconciliation.

Yes, you should do that!

The intent of Plan A has not been met at all since one of your most critical exposures has been skipped. It is not a cafeteria plan. It is not a check the box exercise for conflict avoiders. Exposure to the OM's family is one of the most critical exposures. You can't afford to skip that step. Please make it happen. I would take your free time and focus on getting contact information for OM's family instead of reading old threads. [that I have read myself! I have been here every day for 18 years.]

Struggling to find contact info for OMs family.

How did your WW find out about the OMBW relapsing?

Where do his parents live? Have you tried looking them up via whitepages.com? What about his family member's facebook pages? What about the OMW's facebook page? Surely she is friends with some inlaws.

This was in the past when she and the OM were still communicating.

About a week following Labor Day which is when regular electronic contact resumed.

Tries both their FB pages and his shows no friends at all and hers has 2 cousins and siblings from her own family.

I'm pretty sure that he's from WA state and while whitepages associated some names with both the OM and OMW, there's no clear link to parents. I ran those associated names through FB to see if they were linked to the OM, but that didn't reveal anything. Still grinding...

Keep at it!

Just getting ready to smash the submit button on changing my direct deposit.

My thought process is, in part, motivated by a desire to show her how I am supporting the family financially, but she's already well aware of this. Another motivation is avoid her using the family's money to pay for a lawyer or any other expenses to pay for a divorce - let her get a credit card or a loan of she's so intent on divorcing me. Another bit of motivation is her spending the family's money on stiff for her that helps her prepare herself for divorce or post divorce.

Am I just being punitive or spiteful?

What are their interests on FB? Did they like stupid games? Is a veterinarian liked by one of them? If you befriend a friend of theirs, you can probably see more info.

Create a blank FB acct, friend some people who play games and might be friends with them. Be creative.

The OMs FB page has zero posts to it and no info at all. The OMWs FB page has several posts, the last from 2016 and less than 8 friends linked. There are also less than 20 comments on those posts. These are not active FB pages.

Maybe a public records search...

Dr Harley has addressed this issue. When a wayward spouse is fogged out [she is!] and is talking about divorce, etc, the betrayed spouse needs to protect herself/himself financially. Your fogged out wife can wipe you out financially and cause enormous damage.You need to protect yourself from that. This is not out of spite,, but out of self preservation from a destructive spouse. Having an affair is about as destructive as it gets. She could cause damage to your finances that would be very hard to overcome even after her affair is really over and the fog wears off. Being financially disabled would also make you less attractive as a marriage partner! So, you are right to take steps to protect yourself and your kids financially.

Saw a text tonight from my wife to her longest and closest friend wherein my wife expresses to her friend that she is having trouble communicating to me that the marriage is over and explaining that I cancelled mediation. In other words, complaining to her friend why I just don't get that it's over. So my wife asked her friend if she'd look at the email chain that you guys are seeing here in these posts above.

Mediation isn’t necessary to avoid a difficult divorce. Both times I was the one that filed, while following the MB advice not to talk divorce, just to be consistent in saying there is a program that will bring us lasting happiness if we follow it. Some people don’t want to do things a proven way and have a sense of entitlement that they want what they want when they want it. Its really positive that your DW is recognizing and acknowledging your changes. In the love bank that’s still in withdrawal but getting closer to state of conflict which is trying but a really good sign that you’re doing the right things. Remember spending quality time with your kids teaching them thoughtfulness is a great way to make deposits. No man will love your kids like you will.

Listening to the MB radio show daily helped me change my attitude until now it’s pretty effortless to listen empathetically to complaints and figure out how I want to change my behavior. I hope it will also give you the motivation to finish the exposure up quickly and move on to the next steps.

Your wife is trying to control you. She does not have trouble communicating anything. She communicated just fine and you responded.

NED makes a good point about mediation. In fact, mediation usually causes conflict because the couple, who is IN CONFLICT, is forced to negotiate. Negotiating a settlement through lawyers avoids all that conflict unless one person wants to be difficult.

Is she planning on being difficult? Hopefully not!

A good article about affection. Affection is a demonstration of CARE. For future use: LEARNING THE SKILL OF AFFECTION

Thank you, NED. I appreciate the insights and advice.

She does acknowledge the changes I am making and continue to make, but quickly associates them with me being a good dad and that our kids deserve a better dad than I have been. Shortly after she explained on Fathers Day that she wanted a separation, she was acknowledging how kind I was to her and telling her friends and family and our marriage counselor how calm and easy things were in the house. But those haven't come back up since I found out about the affair.

Yeah, my wife is in this fantasyland wherein were going to have this friendly, amicable divorce that resembles what she thinks her divorced parents did (which itself is imagined). I'm not intending to make it nasty, but I'm not planning on being friends.

In her text to her friend yesterday asking for help in getting through to me, she noted to her friend that she was going to be kind to me and to do so for the kids.

Thanks. I read the one you linked to and briefly read through the others. Fascinating and gives me hope that I can be successful in repairing this marriage. I just need my wife to feel comfortable leaning in to start down that path.

In each or these articles, Harley describes couples who see him together, ie, both are willing to start the work to see what happens. I feel I'm a thousand miles away from that starting point.

But Plan A the hell out of this by finishing up exposure and start on the ENs while also protecting myself by separating finances and perhaps showing what divorce looks like for her. ENs to be affection and intimate conversation along with taking excellent care of the kids. Avoid LBs like a muthaf@#ka.

One thing that comes out very strongly from her communications is that she is lonely. I'm sure OM gave/gives her lots of undivided attention. That EN is going to be really easy for you to meet. Just stop what you are doing when she starts to talk to you and really engage. Mealtimes are perfect.

Obviously you are not going to say "I am meeting your EM of intimate conversation" If you do that she will immediately cotton on and stop talking to you. Keep this very casual. She needs you to find her fascinating.

Thanks, I really appreciate the advice. As I've noted before, I think I'm a dunce in this area of emotional needs and recognizing opportunities to meet ENs and to cultivate those opportunities as well.

You are not as far as you think.The stage is set for this to work, you just have to be patient, consistent, watching for opportunities to meet her needs. Those opportunities will usually come through small talk with her. Focus on being as pleasant as possible.


You got it!! Keep in mind that you have a great chance of turning this around. I know it doesn't seem that way to you, but I have seen much worse than this make a complete turnaround.

Some watchouts, of course, is any contact with the OM. You really need to be a super spy right now so you can knock down any contact between them. I am concerned there is still contact or WILL BE contact. Affairees are very sloppy so she will mess up eventually. You just have to be able to see it so you can address and KILL.

I know. But what a challenge, eh? Seeing how she writes about me and how she discusses this with her friends dampens the enthusiasm to pursue ENs and taking advantage of opportunities to engage.


Thanks for the encouragement.

This is interesting... My wife texted her longest term and best friend asking for some help in how to respond to my emails. In her text, my wife expressed that she was frustrated that I just wasn't getting it and that for her the marriage is completely over. So my wife sent her friend the emails that you've seen above. Here's her friend's response:


This is interesting because:

Her friend went to "domestic violence". Her friend acknowledges that my wife has never indicated that I have put a hand on her and I never have. When I think of domestic violence I also think of physical violence; but I can see how another person might consider non-physical abuse to be domestic violence, but her friend seems to be stretching mightily. My wife does consider that my angry outbursts and withdrawing/isolating as forms of "abuse" in our marriage.

Her friend wants to make my wife believe that I am making this all about me...wha-what? And that I am using the OM as a scapegoat for my own damaging behaviors...huh? I think what we're seeing here is a run-away imagination on her friend's part. No where in my emails to my wife am I scapegoating the OM or even making it about just me.

Lastly, her friend wants my wife to believe that I don't respect her or love her.

Wow.

My wife replied to her friend this way:

And her friend, in turn replied:

I'm working from home this afternoon. Wife just got home from work and boys are gone. After a little bit, I went upstairs to go say hi and got a very chilly reception, in other words, she didn't look at me and used very few rods to reply to me when I asked her how her day was, how the classroom was, etc.

Though, when she first walked in she was surprised I was here because I had told her last night that I had "an appointment" this afternoon without specifying what, who, or where. She brought that up twice last night asking me once about the appointment and then making a comment about my "mystery appointment".

How should respond to these chilly interactions? When confronted with them I just assume that she doesn't want me to talk to her, doesn't want me bothering her.

Just continue to be light and pleasant. If she gives you the cold shoulder, just continue being nice without being pushy.

If she accuses you of "domestic violence" just remind her that you have never touched her. You feel you did a terrible job of making her happy in the past and don't want that old marriage back. You don't want a divorce, you want the chance to make her happy. If she wants a divorce there is nothing stopping her, of course.

Don't get into a debate with her about it. It seems like she feels she needs to convince you of something and I find that puzzling. If she wants a divorce, she just has to file for it. I would remind her of that. There is no point in debating the issue.

TRUE, it is. IT is also a huge lovebuster that causes a spouse to fall out of love. That can be changed if you just hang in there.

Just saw on my wife's phone that she is soliciting suggestions for an attorney from her friends...I didn't realize how many of them are divorced. One name in particular came up...guess I'll be making a call tomorrow.

An email from ym wife tonight:

So, how to handle?

On one hand, I want to have the conversation together so that I can clearly explain that mom is going to destroy the family rather than work on the marriage and to also explain that before we all found out about her affair with their friend's dad we were working on the marriage.

On the other hand, I want to resist all divorce talk and put off this parenting class that she insists on going to on Saturday and to which I am refusing to go.

I don't think you can stop her from taking them to this class so you will want to be part of this discussion. I would have that discussion with her and tell the boys - VERY CALMLY - that you don't want a divorce and won't help her do this. Let them know that you will be fighting to keep their family together and won't help her destroy the family over her affair. Let them know you don't agree with the idea of taking them to a parenting class.

When you reply to her, be very polite and don't give her a heads up about what you plan on saying.

And keep in mind what Dr. H says about love busting, if he were to give you a million dollars to stop love busting immediately, you’d do it, so just remember what you’re working towards. What fun light family time do you have planned this weekend?

DrD, I would also tell the boys during this discussion how much their mom's affair hurt you. They need to know how this has affected you.

I'm wondering if I should go to the parenting class? I agree with you Melody that the it would be confusing for me to say I want to work on the marriage but then attend a class with the kids that is built on the premise that the parents are divorcing.

Further, as we are in her emails to me and the email to her friend, my wife is saying that the affair is not the reason for the divorce. That it is the years of a bad marriage and multiple times in the past that she has leaned in and I have failed to follow through that has led here. As soon as I mention the affair to the boys she'll dismiss it.

No plans, yet. I woke up this morning thinking about what we could do. Thinking of a hike Sunday after church,but it's supposed to be raining.

I sure wouldn't. That would give credence to her objective of busting up the family, which is not in their best interest.


ALL affairees say the affair is not the reason. They blame the demise of the marriage on the spouse to keep him off balance. You can dismiss it by saying that she never wanted a divorce UNTIL she had an affair. The proof is in the pudding. I would also add that you suspect the reason she wants out now is so she can hook up with "Sally's husband" in the future. A bad marriage can be fixed, after all. What other reason would a spouse need to get a divorce from a spouse who is perfectly willing to do what it takes to fix the marriage unless it is to be with her OM? They are willing to destroy 2 families so they can carry on their affair. <-----SAY THAT.

During this discussion I would refer to the OM as "Sally's husband." [insert her correct name] Keep it front and center that this is someone else's husband that she has been messing with.

ALSO, if she blames the affair on you, you need to be clear and say "there is no excuse for having an affair." Kids understand that. Your kids are not allowed to blame others for their bad behavior and they will not like seeing their mother do this.

And you can print this up and say this in front of your boys:

"This is from a noted clinical psychologist who specializes in saving marriages from infidelity" He said:


Here is the article: https://www.marriagebuilders.com/coping-with-infidelity-beginning-part-1.htm