Marriage Builders
Posted By: FanPalm Preventing divorce - 06/16/20 07:00 AM
My wife asked me for a divorce this weekend. I don't want a divorce. We've been having difficulties for 6.5 years, and we've been separated for 7 months.

I realize that I've contributed to the situation. I wonder if anyone has any advice on a plan that might give me the best chance of saving the marriage.

My understanding of where I've gone wrong is that I continue to do things that cause her pain, and that I have a problem with blaming her or accusing her. I also have a problem with lying. I know that I can't afford to be unpleasant, yet I continue to do things that anyone would find unpleasant.

Her complaints are that I am sadistic, she thinks I'm not integrated, that I say I want to treat her well but then I treat her badly, that she thinks I'm to blame for the problems in the relationship and she thinks she behaved wonderfully, that she would need to complete forgiveness, complete love, and complete absolution from me.

I'm guilty of many things over the years: independent behavior, not meeting her needs, threatening to leave her over sex, lying, using porn, anger and resentment, and not fixing these problems in a timely manner. The most recent errors I've made that have upset her most strongly are: (1) after moving out, she emailed me to invite me to a dinner with her, and I didn't respond; after 24 hours she called me and asked me about it and I said I hadn't seen the email to avoid answering, when in fact I had seen it; (2) when we got together, at the end she offered me some blueberries (which she knows I like) and I said "no" and when she asked why I said "they're your blueberries" in an unpleasant tone; (3) recently she expressed concern she might lose her job and suggested we minimize spending and I agreed, and then when we got a bill in the mail from a tree trimming company I sent her an email essentially insinuating that she was spending money without getting agreement first, when it turned out this was something we had agreed to months before and I had forgotten (argh, how stupid is that); (4) recently she mentioned that I should expect a large charge on the credit card bill but not to worry as she would be returning most of it, and when I asked for more information and she didn't respond I asked again, and when she responded I kept pushing for information. My understanding is that she says views this as me trying to take it out on her, and me filtering reality through a lens where she is to blame and seeking to find ways that she is in the wrong, when she is actually acting in good faith. She also says that I've had a long time to fix the problems and I haven't fixed them and I'm moving so slowly and she has given me time and she can't wait any longer.

I'm frustrated that I keep making mistakes that get in the way of recovery. I know I can't do this, yet I still do. My interpretation is that I have a problem with lovebusters, particularly blame and dishonesty.

Does anyone have any advice about how to change my thinking and actions to match what I'm trying to achieve? I assume my chances of saving the marriage are slim, but I'm frustrated that I keep going wrong. Ideally, I'd like to find a solution that could enable us to recover, but even if I can't prevent divorce, I'd like to learn these skills and act in a way consistent with my values. Maybe the problem is that I'm not taking things seriously enough, and need to make it a higher priority, and so I'm just reaping the consequences of my actions.. but I'm writing in case anyone has any advice for me or anything to say that you think might help me stay on a better path.

I bought a galvanic skin response meter to practice relaxation before I moved out, but didn't bring it with me. Maybe I need to ask her for access to the house to find it, or to order a new one.

Thank you in advance for any thoughts. I apologize if this is too detailed or not actionable enough.
Posted By: FanPalm Should I probe further, and how? - 06/16/20 08:49 AM
My wife recently advised me that she was talking to an old ex-boyfriend (B) of hers on the phone, and that B's wife heard my wife talking to B and accused B of cheating with my wife and threatened to post everywhere about it. My wife says B's wife is delusional and they've had a difficult relationship for some time (which is consistent with what she has mentioned to me years ago, so this is not coming out of the blue). My wife said this past week B sent her a copy of some communications between B and B's wife that are apparently consistent with this. Overall I trust my wife in this respect and don't think she would cheat on me, and I assume that in all likelihood it's nothing, but I have a small part of me that wonders what the situation is.

Question: Would you recommend investigating more, and if so, do you have any advice on how to approach this? Would you recommend contacting B's wife? I have contact information for B but not B's wife, but I think I might have found a phone number for B's wife online. If I contacted B's wife I'm not sure whether that would reach back to my wife.

Question: Would you advise me to ask my wife for a copy of the communications she mentioned so I can understand the situation better? I am not sure this is advisable? Argument in favor: Her answer might provide me useful information. Argument against: My wife might find this annoying and take it as a sign of distrust or an implicit accusation. Some more context is that she told me this past weekend she wants a divorce. While it might be a lost cause at this point, I'm not ready to give up on the marriage, I'm trying to avoid doing things that will be lovebusters or be unpleasant, and raising this subject sounds like it could have that affect.

I apologize if these are obvious questions. I would welcome any thoughts anyone might have.
Posted By: goody2shoes Re: Should I probe further, and how? - 06/16/20 09:22 AM
Your wife has separated from you and wants a divorce. Another man's wife sees her man is having an affair with your wife.
Maybe 1+1=2

Get the info directly from your wife's ex-boyfriends wife and snoop without informing your wife. Either you find out she's having an affair and wants to divorce you because of it, or you find nothing.

Clue: people don't divorce for no reason.
Posted By: SugarCane Re: Preventing divorce - 06/16/20 11:56 AM
Originally Posted by FanPalm
Maybe the problem is that I'm not taking things seriously enough, and need to make it a higher priority
Bingo
Originally Posted by FanPalm
I bought a galvanic skin response meter to practice relaxation before I moved out, but didn't bring it with me.
Exhibit A, m'lud.
Posted By: Prisca Re: Should I probe further, and how? - 06/16/20 03:25 PM
Why is your wife talking to an ex on the phone?
That is not normal behavior for a married woman.
Yes, you should investigate further.
No, you should not talk to your wife about this.

Snoop, but quietly.
Posted By: Prisca Re: Preventing divorce - 06/16/20 03:36 PM
I see you started posting in August -- 10 months ago.
You moved out 7 months ago WITHOUT your meter.

What have you been doing all this time to save your marriage??


Posted By: FanPalm Re: Preventing divorce - 06/16/20 06:56 PM
Thank you for the independent perspective. Maybe that's what I need to hear. What I've been doing has not been effective.

It's not all that I haven't been doing. I signed up for the online Marriage Builders program and then I haven't been doing it, for 7 or 8 months.

Thank you for your response, and for holding me accountable.
Posted By: markos Re: Preventing divorce - 06/16/20 07:02 PM
FP, have you contacted Dr. Harley?

7-8 months... it's time to light a fire under yourself and get moving!
Posted By: markos Re: Preventing divorce - 06/16/20 07:04 PM
You have got to aim and fire and have life long follow through.

You can't just do a little marriage stuff here and there till things get quiet.
Posted By: markos Re: Preventing divorce - 06/16/20 07:10 PM
Originally Posted by FanPalm
My wife asked me for a divorce this weekend. I don't want a divorce.

Why not?

What do you get out of your marriage?

What would you lose if you lost your marriage?

How serious is this?

How motivated do your answers make you? Motivated enough to change you, for life?
Posted By: SugarCane Re: Preventing divorce - 06/16/20 07:35 PM
Originally Posted by FanPalm
I'm guilty of many things over the years: independent behavior, not meeting her needs, threatening to leave her over sex, lying, using porn, anger and resentment, and not fixing these problems in a timely manner. The most recent errors I've made that have upset her most strongly are: (1) after moving out, she emailed me to invite me to a dinner with her, and I didn't respond; after 24 hours she called me and asked me about it and I said I hadn't seen the email to avoid answering, when in fact I had seen it; (2) when we got together, at the end she offered me some blueberries (which she knows I like) and I said "no" and when she asked why I said "they're your blueberries" in an unpleasant tone; (3) recently she expressed concern she might lose her job and suggested we minimize spending and I agreed, and then when we got a bill in the mail from a tree trimming company I sent her an email essentially insinuating that she was spending money without getting agreement first, when it turned out this was something we had agreed to months before and I had forgotten (argh, how stupid is that); (4) recently she mentioned that I should expect a large charge on the credit card bill but not to worry as she would be returning most of it, and when I asked for more information and she didn't respond I asked again, and when she responded I kept pushing for information. My understanding is that she says views this as me trying to take it out on her, and me filtering reality through a lens where she is to blame and seeking to find ways that she is in the wrong, when she is actually acting in good faith. She also says that I've had a long time to fix the problems and I haven't fixed them and I'm moving so slowly and she has given me time and she can't wait any longer.

I'm frustrated that I keep making mistakes that get in the way of recovery. I know I can't do this, yet I still do. My interpretation is that I have a problem with lovebusters, particularly blame and dishonesty...

...I bought a galvanic skin response meter to practice relaxation before I moved out, but didn't bring it with me. Maybe I need to ask her for access to the house to find it, or to order a new one.
All these things are recent - in other words, since you separated. Is this how you would recommend to someone else that they woo their ill-treated and neglected wife back?

You interpret your love busters as "blame and dishonesty", but from what you've written here, you are a habitual liar, you issue disrespectful judgements at the drop of a hat, you are sneering and sarcastic, you don't appreciate the things she does for you, you use porn, you weaponise sex, and your anger and "resentment" (what the heck do you have to be resentful about?) are out of control. And despite her having already kicked you out, you don't give enough of a rat's behind to use the GSR machine we recommended to you, or to activate the MB course that we told you to sign up for. When you were last here, we told you what to do. Your response of doing nothing shows exactly the amount you care about your wife and your marriage: nothing.

Can you tell us what is in it for your wife? After the litany of failings that you've given here, why would she take you back, especially since she's been managing on her own for 7 months? Do you think her life has been richer, or poorer, for not having lived with you?
Posted By: FanPalm Re: Preventing divorce - 06/16/20 11:42 PM
Ouch. And thank you. I appreciate your taking the time to respond in such detail. I guess I needed that kick in the butt. I don't get that feedback from any of my other sources of feedback, so I appreciate getting this perspective. It sounds like I have an inflated sense of myself. Ouch.

I haven't contacted Dr Harley directly. I've finished the preliminary part of the online Marriage Builders program and it's my impression Dr Harley is going to review that part and suggest a path forward.

Why don't I want a divorce? Because of my belief that the Bible commands me to love my wife; because of my commitment to the marriage; because of a little bit of hope or belief that we could have a good marriage again; because of fear of the future.

What do I get out of my marriage? When it was good, I got a lot; safety, sex, love, companionship, acceptance, purpose, safe membership in something larger than myself, self-respect, self-acceptance, a social circle were among the big ones. Things have not been good for years, but on many days I can still find purpose, and there is financial stability.

What would I lose? A lot. It's the loss of hope for those good things, and more. I'd have the recognition that I've sinned against God and my wife. I'd have the regret that I could have had a good marriage, and failed, and the fact that I've hurt my wife. It would mean losing my chance to get this right and make this right.

How serious is it? The most serious thing in my lifetime. It's a defining fact of my life and my most serious failure.

How motivated does this make me? Right now the strongest motivation I can identify is to act according to what God would have me do and to a vision that strikes me as worthy. That's something I've really failed on. I think I'm motivated enough to change for life on that. In principle having a good marriage is a motivation, but it's been of declining effectiveness and is at war in my head with a demotivation -- it's a struggle to believe that I can do anything that will lead to a good marriage. That may be a faulty cognitive bias, maybe to justify avoiding effort or something new, and I need to get over that. I'd like to eliminate causing harm, whether or not it saves my marriage. I don't know what my problem is, I just know that I have one.

Typing this out shows me that I've screwed up and need to re-adjust my view of things. Thank you.
Posted By: FanPalm Re: Preventing divorce - 06/16/20 11:51 PM
SugarCane, thank you. No, I absolutely wouldn't recommend it. It's dumb, dumb, dumb is what it is.

I've gone down the wrong path in my life, and I keep doing it.

I can't tell you what is in it for my wife. Probably nothing but more pain. Perhaps a possibility of a really good marriage again, but that would require me to get my act together for it to even be possible. I imagine her life has been better after I moved out than it was before I moved out, and her life will be even better for her if she divorces me. Losing my marriage seems like a natural and just consequence for my treatment of her.

So it sounds like what I take away from your comment is that in addition to treating her badly, I don't own up to my failures, and don't take action on them. I need a lot more humility, and more action. Thank you for helping me see that perspective.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Should I probe further, and how? - 06/17/20 01:07 PM
Originally Posted by FanPalm
Question: Would you recommend investigating more, and if so, do you have any advice on how to approach this? Would you recommend contacting B's wife? I have contact information for B but not B's wife, but I think I might have found a phone number for B's wife online. If I contacted B's wife I'm not sure whether that would reach back to my wife.

Quietly contact B's wife.

Quote
Question: Would you advise me to ask my wife for a copy of the communications she mentioned so I can understand the situation better? I am not sure this is advisable? Argument in favor: Her answer might provide me useful information.

If she is having an affair, she won't provide useful information. It will only tip her off and cause her to go further underground.

I have a feeling she is telling you all this because she is scared B's wife is going to tell you something. This is CLASSIC wayward behavior to pre-empt an exposure. B's wife might have threatened to expose to you and she is setting you up with stories about "B's crazy, jealous wife who imagines he is having an affair." Then when B's wife does get through to you, hopefully you will believe she is just a nut job and won't believe her. See how that works?

It might be nothing and it might be something, but you should not ask your wife about it. You should ask B's wife. And if she feels there is an affair, you should get her evidence. Come back here before you speak to your wife and we will give you next steps.

Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Should I probe further, and how? - 06/17/20 01:12 PM
Originally Posted by FanPalm
My wife recently advised me that she was talking to an old ex-boyfriend (B) of hers on the phone, and that B's wife heard my wife talking to B and accused B of cheating with my wife and threatened to post everywhere about it. My wife says B's wife is delusional and they've had a difficult relationship for some time (which is consistent with what she has mentioned to me years ago, so this is not coming out of the blue).
.

B's wife threatened to expose. That is why your wife is framing the narrative to you. Most women don't appreciate their husbands talking to old girlfriends and not because they are "delusional;" but because it is highly INAPPROPRIATE! Your wife has poor boundaries around men.

And how does it help B's "difficult relationship" with his wife for your wife to be talking to him? crazy
Posted By: LongWayFromHome Re: Preventing divorce - 06/18/20 09:02 PM
Are you enrolled in the Online Home Study Course or in the Accountability Program?
Posted By: FanPalm Re: Preventing divorce - 06/19/20 06:02 AM
First off, SugarCane, Markos, thank you for showing me who and what I have done and have become. I have been reflecting on what you have said, and I accept it. I am in the wrong. I have failed to exercise care for my wife and my marriage, both through action and inaction. I have done extraordinary damage. I've resisted accepting responsibility.

I am going to change this. The ball is in my court. I'd like to put together an attempt at a plan and share it here, and I would welcome your feedback at that point.

LongWayFromHome, I am in the Accountability Program, but I've gone 8 months without doing a single thing. I spent a bunch of money on it and then did not take advantage of it. I watched Youtube videos instead of watching the Marriage Builder videos, practicing with my biofeedback sensor, or taking advantages of all of the resources in the program.
Posted By: goody2shoes Re: Preventing divorce - 06/19/20 07:44 AM
What is your plan? What actions are planned for today?
Posted By: Prisca Re: Preventing divorce - 06/19/20 02:30 PM
What about your other thread? Are you snooping? Have you contacted the other man's wife?
Posted By: Robert22205 Re: Should I probe further, and how? - 06/19/20 06:03 PM
B's wife may have solid evidence of the affair. That's why it's important to talk to her (without your wife knowing).

Also, you best ally is B's wife.
Posted By: FanPalm Re: Should I probe further, and how? - 06/20/20 06:36 AM
Thank you. I really appreciate the advice. This has been very helpful.

There are some specific questions I could use advice on, and oh boy could I use some help, but I am uncertain about how much information I should share here. My wife knows that I like Marriage Builders and I'm not sure whether she might check this website. Do you have any perspectives on that or any suggestions?
Posted By: FanPalm Re: Preventing divorce - 06/20/20 07:11 AM
My plan for the next 24 hours is (1) I will write a draft of a proposed plan for myself, (2) I will share my draft here, (3) I will email Sandy & Dr Harley to ask for their assistance with it, (4) I will practice with my biofeedback meter for 30 minutes tomorrow, (5) I will write my wife an email, and express affection and gratitude. I would like to call a member of my family to confess where I have gone wrong and ask him if he would be open to helping provide me accountability for following through on the commitments in my plan.

Actions taken today: I practiced with my biofeedback meter for a half an hour. Earlier this week I made arrangements with a friend to be accountable for practicing for 30 minutes for 3 times over the coming week. That's not enough; I think that needs to be 30 minutes every day. Do you have any thoughts on that? I did a bunch of reading on the forums today, read part of another book from Dr. Harley that I hadn't read before, and some other stuff. I wrote a draft email to Sandy & Dr Harley, but I'm planning to sleep on it overnight and look over it tomorrow before I send it. I prayed briefly.
Posted By: FanPalm Re: Preventing divorce - 06/21/20 06:08 AM
Here's my current plan:

1. I will practice with a bio-feedback meter for 30 minutes every morning, 8:00-8:30am. I've asked a friend to provide accountability for me for meeting this commitment.
2. I will write daily to my wife, with the goal of trying to provide affection, admiration, and build connection, describe my life, and describe the steps I'm taking to learn to be a
more caring husband; without expectation of response. I've asked a relative to provide accountability for writing daily.
3. I commit to radical honesty, except regarding snooping. I will use my daily email to reveal myself.
4. I will continue to abstain from porn and masturbation and participate in addiction recovery group (weekly) to help me address this and to hold myself accountable.
5. I will eliminate lovebusters and track any that occur. I will continue to attend anger management group (weekly) to hold myself accountable and individual therapy (twice weekly) to help me understand these and other faults and correct them.
6. I will snoop.
7. I will ask at work to have my workload at work reduced for the coming year, so that I can have more time for addressing these important issues.
8. I will talk to my family members about my failures and faults, so that I can't hide them.

I worry this might be lacking. Any feedback?
Posted By: FanPalm Re: Preventing divorce - 06/21/20 06:20 AM
Prisca, I replied on the other thread - would welcome your thoughts there.
Posted By: FanPalm Re: Should I probe further, and how? - 06/21/20 06:22 AM
I would welcome any creative ideas for how to snoop (a) for someone who is living separately, (b) in a two-party consent state, (c) given that physical contact seems less likely given the distance. I have one or two ideas but it's a pretty short list. I'm unsure whether it is wise to say more.
Posted By: TheRoad Re: Should I probe further, and how? - 06/21/20 07:18 AM
Originally Posted by FanPalm
I would welcome any creative ideas for how to snoop (a) for someone who is living separately, (b) in a two-party consent state, (c) given that physical contact seems less likely given the distance. I have one or two ideas but it's a pretty short list. I'm unsure whether it is wise to say more.

first thing to do is contact the OBS.
Posted By: IrishGreen Re: Should I probe further, and how? - 06/21/20 02:50 PM
Please stick to one thread.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Should I probe further, and how? - 06/21/20 03:14 PM
Did you send your email to Sandy or Dr. Harley?
Posted By: SugarCane Re: Should I probe further, and how? - 06/21/20 03:18 PM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by FanPalm
My wife recently advised me that she was talking to an old ex-boyfriend (B) of hers on the phone, and that B's wife heard my wife talking to B and accused B of cheating with my wife and threatened to post everywhere about it. My wife says B's wife is delusional and they've had a difficult relationship for some time (which is consistent with what she has mentioned to me years ago, so this is not coming out of the blue).
.

B's wife threatened to expose. That is why your wife is framing the narrative to you. Most women don't appreciate their husbands talking to old girlfriends and not because they are "delusional;" but because it is highly INAPPROPRIATE! Your wife has poor boundaries around men.

And how does it help B's "difficult relationship" with his wife for your wife to be talking to him? crazy

What did the OM's wife have to say about all this?
Posted By: FanPalm Re: Should I probe further, and how? - 06/21/20 05:13 PM
I sent my email to Sandy, for her and Dr Harley's use. I don't have a direct email address for Dr Harley.

I have obtained some information which suggests that you have raised valid concerns. I am not sure how much I should disclose here, especially about sources and methods, when I'm not sure whether who might be reading this. If you have any advice on that, I would welcome it.

My wife called me and told me she just got off the phone with OM. My wife told me that OM's wife had mentioned to OM about the date of me moving out, which my wife had not mentioned to OM. My wife asked how OM's wife knew that and expressed concern that someone has hacked one of our accounts, maybe our calendars. In the middle of the conversation she cuts me off and says OM is calling and takes OM's call. An hour later she called back to ask me if I have spoken with OM's wife. I said I don't want to answer that question. She asked why repeatedly. I said that I am confused and I don't understand what is happening and I'm starting to think maybe I need to talk to OM's wife and I want to be free to talk to OM's wife without setting a precedent that I'll answer that question. She asked some more and tried several variations of trying to get me to answer or told me that I'd lose her trust if I didn't answer (or something to that effect), I went back to repeating that I don't want to answer that question. I wish I had given a crisper answer that I'm not going to answer that question, a concise explanation, and left it at that without continuing that line of conversation. Did I do that right or wrong? Would you recommend that I reveal to my wife whether I have spoken to OM's wife, in response to her direct questions?

OM lives hundreds of miles away.

Shortly after that, I lost access to her calendar. I suspect she changed her password.

Regarding your statement about boundaries, I have reason to believe my wife spends time walking socially one-on-one with one or more other men. I asked her not to spend time alone with another man, and for a while she agreed not to, but after a while stated she would no longer follow that. She told me I have nothing to worry about; she mentioned that one is very old and the other is married.
Posted By: SugarCane Re: Should I probe further, and how? - 06/21/20 05:51 PM
We've asked a couple of times about talking to OM wife, and you haven't answered. Is there some reason why you're not speaking to her, or why you're not answering us?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Should I probe further, and how? - 06/21/20 06:28 PM
Originally Posted by FanPalm
I sent my email to Sandy, for her and Dr Harley's use. I don't have a direct email address for Dr Harley.

My wife called me and told me she just got off the phone with OM. My wife told me that OM's wife had mentioned to OM about the date of me moving out, which my wife had not mentioned to OM. My wife asked how OM's wife knew that and expressed concern that someone has hacked one of our accounts, maybe our calendars. In the middle of the conversation she cuts me off and says OM is calling and takes OM's call. An hour later she called back to ask me if I have spoken with OM's wife. I said I don't want to answer that question. She asked why repeatedly. I said that I am confused and I don't understand what is happening and I'm starting to think maybe I need to talk to OM's wife and I want to be free to talk to OM's wife without setting a precedent that I'll answer that question. She asked some more and tried several variations of trying to get me to answer or told me that I'd lose her trust if I didn't answer (or something to that effect), I went back to repeating that I don't want to answer that question. I wish I had given a crisper answer that I'm not going to answer that question, a concise explanation, and left it at that without continuing that line of conversation. Did I do that right or wrong? Would you recommend that I reveal to my wife whether I have spoken to OM's wife, in response to her direct questions?

Did you call the OMW??? Or not?
Posted By: FanPalm Re: Should I probe further, and how? - 06/21/20 07:32 PM
Yes - I have spoken to OMW. I recognize that it may be hard to help without full information. The reason is the one that I've listed above. I am unsure whether my wife may be reading these forums and how much it would be wise to discuss here. What would be your advice about that?
Posted By: SugarCane Re: Should I probe further, and how? - 06/21/20 08:25 PM
I think you should just stop being afraid and seek the help you need. What happened when you spoke to OMW?
Posted By: FanPalm Re: Should I probe further, and how? - 06/21/20 09:22 PM
Alright. I do need help, and you've called it, I am afraid. OMW told me that my wife and OM have been in regular daily contact by texts or emails or phone since around the time my wife asked me to move out; that OMW has asked it to stop but it apparently hasn't; and that the police have custody of OM's devices.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Should I probe further, and how? - 06/21/20 09:36 PM
Does she have reason to believe there is an affair taking place?
Posted By: FanPalm Re: Should I probe further, and how? - 06/21/20 09:45 PM
Oh dear. That is an obvious question that I didn't think to ask. Any others that it would be helpful for me to ask, while we're at it?
Posted By: SugarCane Re: Should I probe further, and how? - 06/21/20 09:51 PM
Originally Posted by FanPalm
the police have custody of OM's devices.
Why?
Posted By: FanPalm Re: Should I probe further, and how? - 06/21/20 10:01 PM
Good question. My understanding is that OMW had OM's devices seized for analysis, but I don't know whether I understood that correctly. Sounds like another one I need to get clearer on.
Posted By: SugarCane Re: Should I probe further, and how? - 06/21/20 10:03 PM
Originally Posted by FanPalm
Good question. My understanding is that OMW had OM's devices seized for analysis.
For analysis of what? Is he a criminal suspect?
Posted By: FanPalm Re: Should I probe further, and how? - 06/21/20 10:25 PM
I will see what I can find out. I'm realizing that I made assumptions without explicitly confirming them.
Posted By: SugarCane Re: Should I probe further, and how? - 06/21/20 10:42 PM
Originally Posted by FanPalm
I will see what I can find out. I'm realizing that I made assumptions without explicitly confirming them.
Well, what you've assumed so far doesn't make much sense. I don't understand how what OMW said makes sense to you, and why you didn't ask questions.

Posted By: FanPalm Re: Should I probe further, and how? - 06/22/20 01:08 AM
I asked OMW about whether she has reasons to believe an affair is taking place. She said she discovered OM and my wife having a conversation that was described as "very private" and that OM was not willing to allow OMW to hear that conversation. That may have included some discussions of our divorce and financials, based on information my wife sent me. OMW also reports that OM and my wife are in regular contact electronically. I am not aware of any reason to believe that any physical contact has taken place. She said she didn't know if there was something emotional, but she felt that kind of communication was inappropriate and she didn't want that kind of contact happening.

OMW says that OM is under police investigation in an unrelated investigation, and that is why the devices are in police custody. She was not prepared to share information about that. I don't understand that part and I found it murky.

In her initial email, my wife reports OM saying that OMW is convinced OM & my wife are having an affair. My wife is concerned that OMW is delusional and could possibly do us harm, either financially or by hacking us, and that OMW may post everywhere about what a horrible person my wife is.

I have no prior experience with OMW. I have decades of prior experience with my wife. I admire and respect my wife and think highly of her honesty and integrity and have always seen her to be honest in her dealings with others. I do not want to see my wife hurt or harmed. I love her and care about her. I want to support my wife. I worry that I am going about it all wrong.

You asked why I didn't ask more questions. I don't know. I suspect I'm not thinking clearly. I may have poor judgement as well. I'm confused.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Should I probe further, and how? - 06/22/20 03:08 AM
Originally Posted by FanPalm
I have no prior experience with OMW. I have decades of prior experience with my wife.


IF your wife is having an affair, you have NO experience with her because she will be a different person. WE have experience with cheaters. We know them. This is why it is so critical that you do some super snooping and get the facts.

Do you know why your wife would continue pursuing a married man if she knows his wife does not approve? That is very aggressive, predatory behavior that I find hard to comprehend.

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My wife is concerned that OMW is delusional and could possibly do us harm,

OK. Then why is she pursuing this "delusional" woman's [who could do you harm!] husband? That makes no sense. crazy

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I admire and respect my wife and think highly of her honesty and integrity and have always seen her to be honest in her dealings with others. I do not want to see my wife hurt or harmed. I love her and care about her. I want to support my wife. I worry that I am going about it all wrong.

If you want to be supportive, start snooping and find out why she is pursuing a married man, especially when she knows his wife doesn't like it. Does the OM come to your home and visit your wife? Do they meet up elsewhere?

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OMW also reports that OM and my wife are in regular contact electronically. I am not aware of any reason to believe that any physical contact has taken place.

How could you possibly know there has been no physical contact if you are checked out and not looking?


Posted By: SugarCane Re: Should I probe further, and how? - 06/22/20 03:53 PM
Originally Posted by FanPalm
I asked OMW about whether she has reasons to believe an affair is taking place. She said she discovered OM and my wife having a conversation that was described as "very private" and that OM was not willing to allow OMW to hear that conversation...

...You asked why I didn't ask more questions. I don't know. I suspect I'm not thinking clearly. I may have poor judgement as well. I'm confused.
It's not clear from this whether you've had another conversation with OMW in the last 24 hours since we probed you for these answers, or whether you've pieced together this information based on your recollection of the first and only conversation. Which is it?

How many times have you spoken to OMW?

Could you speak to her again and get a clear picture of what she thinks is going on, and what she plans to do about it? Obviously, she might not intend to do anything about it, and you can't make her. You'd simply be trying to get insight from her side.

Is she doing anything about her husband being "not willing" to allow her to hear that conversation? And what does "not willing" mean? Did he hide in a room and try and talk quietly, or did he go even further and refuse to let her in the room, and refuse to tell her afterwards what it was about? Could it have been to do with client confidentiality? Is he a lawyer or accountant?

If OM's devices are in police custody, what was he using to talk to your wife?

What is their marriage like? Again, she doesn't have to tell you, but she might. Does she think he is unfaithful and is she planning to do anything about it?

Originally Posted by FanPalm
That may have included some discussions of our divorce and financials, based on information my wife sent me.
This is unclear. Are you saying that your wife sent you information that showed she discussed your financials with OM? What was that information?
Posted By: FanPalm Re: Should I probe further, and how? - 06/22/20 09:11 PM
Thank you for suggesting all those questions, SugarCane. Yes, I spoke with OMW again after you two suggested it. I have answers for all but one of those questions. I don't feel comfortable providing all of the specifics here on a public forum -- I'll share about myself, but I have limits sharing about other people. I realize this may make for a difficult interaction here, and I understand if you don't want to engage on those terms.

I'm struggling to figure out how to get some facts that will give me the best shot at rebuilding a happy marriage with my wife. I've already read a lot of threads here. We're not living together, which eliminates a lot of avenues. I'm not willing to break the law. Do you have any suggestions? I'm not willing to take OMW's word or trust her over my wife.

Since you're asking for a clearer picture, let me try to re-summarize, based on the additional information I've gathered and the questions you're asking:

OMW's perspective, as I understand it: She thinks OM and my wife have been in regular communication for months via emails/texts/messages. She reports that she recently discovered OM and my wife on the phone and OM wouldn't continue the conversation until OMW left the room, and OM called it "very private". She thinks they discussed financials, divorce, and kids. She thinks they remain in contact via chat on their computers. She wants it to stop. She tells me she texted my wife to ask her to stop communicating with OM, and the communications haven't stopped. She's doesn't know whether it's anything more than that and is not willing to say that she thinks there is an ongoing affair, but she wants the communication to stop. She doesn't think there has been physical contact, because OM hasn't left the house for any duration (and they live hundreds of miles away). I don't understand the "police custody" part of the story, despite asking OMW multiple questions about that. I've gotten some partial information about her intentions and formed some impression of her perspective on what their marriage is like, but I don't feel comfortable sharing details of that. I appreciate that may be frustrating and make it harder to provide advice.

My wife's perspective, as I understand it: OM is an old friend. My wife hadn't been in touch with OM for years before the call that OMW discovered. OMW is delusional and not to be trusted. My wife is letting me know that OMW is threatening to post that she is a horrible person, and that there's a possibility that OMW could think of some way to do us some harm, either financially or by trying to hack our accounts. My wife shared a transcript of some messages between OM and OMW with me. My wife thinks I am acting very suspiciously for not answering whether I've been in contact with OMW and called it a major violation of her trust in me.

OM is not a lawyer or accountant and I can't think of any way that client confidentiality would be involved, but it's a good thought. OM and my wife stayed friends after their relationship ended and have stayed in occasional contact through their lives. It would not be out of the usual for them to have a periodic call or email. My wife hasn't said anything about OMW texting her asking her to cease communications. I have not asked my wife questions about the situation. In retrospect I wish I had asked her what she would like us to do about the situation and what she's thinking of doing and how I can support her. I still could. I might be handling this poorly. I suspect my declining to state whether I've been in contact with OMW has made her even less interested in engaging with me than she already was, and there's the potential for me to make things a lot worse.

I realize it's very reasonable for you to ask for as many specifics as possible. In places where I'm not comfortable with that, might you be willing to teach me anything about what inferences you're looking to draw from them and how it might affect my actions?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Should I probe further, and how? - 06/22/20 09:25 PM
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. OMW is delusional and not to be trusted. My wife is letting me know that OMW is threatening to post that she is a horrible person, and that there's a possibility that OMW could think of some way to do us some harm,

Your wife is just asking for trouble by pursuing another woman's husband. That is terrible thing to interfere in a marriage. if your wife doesn't want to be exposed, obviously she should stop doing things she doesn't want exposed. Your wife is not to be trusted if she is pursuing a married man. That is very inappropriate behavior for a grown woman. What is your wife's excuse for this disgraceful behavior?

The reason we are so intent on getting the facts here is because it is very likely that your wife kicked you out because of an affair. It is very, very rare that a couple breaks up without an affair being the cause. She is certainly having a very inappropriate relationship with this married man and clearly has no respect for his marriage.

She doubles down by saying nasty things about the wife rather than doing the decent thing and leaving this married man's marriage alone. This man's wife has every right to be very upset about your wife's interference in her marriage and seems to be bracing you for a grand exposure to run off your wife. Exposure is a good thing, not a bad thing. If some woman were pursuing my husband like this, I would certainly run her off.

As far as your marriage goes, if she is having an affair it will completely prevent your marriage from recovering. Everything you do will be a waste of time if her lovebank is open to this married man. If she is having an affair, her lovebank is closed to you. If she is having an affair we would be use that intel to guide you in killing off the affair. Once the affair is killed, you would have a chance to win her back.

But please stop calling the OMW "delusional." What your wife is doing to her is far worse than being "delusional." Your wife is playing with fire.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Should I probe further, and how? - 06/22/20 09:31 PM
Originally Posted by FanPalm
She doesn't think there has been physical contact, because OM hasn't left the house for any duration (and they live hundreds of miles away).

Has your wife left town to go there?
Posted By: FanPalm Re: Should I probe further, and how? - 06/22/20 09:57 PM
Thank you for your detailed message. I appreciate you explaining your reasoning and talking through this. That helps.

I support getting the facts, and would welcome your thoughts about how to approach that.

You ask what my wife's excuse is. I have not asked my wife about this. Are you recommending that I ask her about this? What kind of conversation would you recommend?

I apologize if I'm being pedantic here, but I want to be clear that I don't know for a fact whether my wife is pursuing this man or not: that is based on OMW's description of the situation, which is not something I know how to verify right now. If things are as OMW describes I can entirely understand OMW's reaction, and I agree with you about that being a good thing; I share your perspective about exposure. Right now this appears to be a he-said-she-said situation, so I wish I had independently verifiable facts. That's what I'm working on now, and am struggling with.

There might be a misunderstanding on one point: I am not calling OMW delusional. It is my wife who called her delusional. I'm describing my wife's words.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Should I probe further, and how? - 06/23/20 12:06 AM
Originally Posted by FanPalm
Thank you for your detailed message. I appreciate you explaining your reasoning and talking through this. That helps.

I support getting the facts, and would welcome your thoughts about how to approach that.

You ask what my wife's excuse is. I have not asked my wife about this. Are you recommending that I ask her about this? What kind of conversation would you recommend?

I would be curious to know why she has not left this man alone if she knows his wife doesn't like it. Don't you find that very puzzling?

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I apologize if I'm being pedantic here, but I want to be clear that I don't know for a fact whether my wife is pursuing this man or not: that is based on OMW's description of the situation, which is not something I know how to verify right now.

Your wife is pursuing this man if they are still in touch and she has been asked by his wife to leave him alone. That is very aggressive behavior on your wife's part. She knows this man's wife is upset about it.

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If things are as OMW describes I can entirely understand OMW's reaction, and I agree with you about that being a good thing; I share your perspective about exposure. Right now this appears to be a he-said-she-said situation, so I wish I had independently verifiable facts. That's what I'm working on now, and am struggling with.

Can you think of any way to get some intel? Has your wife traveled there? Do you have any access to her bank records, email, etc?


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There might be a misunderstanding on one point: I am not calling OMW delusional. It is my wife who called her delusional. I'm describing my wife's words.

Ok, but you stated this as fact, giving the impression you believed this. Thanks for clarifying.
Posted By: FanPalm Re: Should I probe further, and how? - 06/23/20 06:15 AM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Has your wife left town to go there?

Not that I'm aware of. Thanks for the idea of looking at bank records etc., that's a good idea. I'll see what I can dig up. I don't have access to her email.
Posted By: FanPalm Re: Should I probe further, and how? - 06/23/20 10:30 PM
How do I draw the boundaries of what I do and don't tell my wife? Do you have any advice on how much information I should provide in response to questions she has, and principles for how to think about that?

My wife continues to ask whether I've spoken to OMW. I'd like to answer her. Is that a mistake?
Posted By: SugarCane Re: Should I probe further, and how? - 06/24/20 11:28 AM
Dr Harley does not recommend radical honesty when it comes to snooping to detect an affair. Radical honesty would rather defeat the concept of snooping, wouldn't you agree?

Therefore, you need to find a form of words that tell her you are not going to give her details, but that do not sound silly ("I'm not going to tell you whether I've spoken to her"). How about "yes, I have spoken with her. She is very upset about the fact that you are having private conversations with her husband, as am I. What are you talking to him about? Why are you communicating with him when she has asked you to stop?"

This isn't rocket science. You actually don't have to tell your wife anything, but when she asks you about contact, this could be a useful way for you to ask her what the heck she thinks she's doing.
Posted By: FanPalm Re: Should I probe further, and how? - 06/25/20 06:05 PM
Thank you for your help, for suggesting how to think about this, and modelling an example of what such a communication might look like.

I've done some investigation to try to figure out whether my wife has travelled to see OM, and with the limited access I've got, I didn't find any sign of that. It'd be possible to travel there without leaving a trail visible to me, so it's not definitive, but if she went there without trying to hide it I think I'd know. My relationship with my wife started with a long-distance relationship with a lot of phone and electronic communication, so lack of physical contact is not terribly reassuring to me about where this could lead. I think now my next step is to consider my options for what other sources of information I can get.

I had a short conversation with my wife I mentioned that I'd spoken to OMW and what information I have shared with her and I briefly expressed that I was unhappy about communication with OM and that I wish I knew what they were discussing and why she's talking to him, if she is indeed talking to him. She didn't respond to the latter part. She asked me more questions. I interpret them as containing complaints that she doesn't like that I'm not answering her questions about this topic, she doesn't understand how this is radically honest, that she'd like to know who else I have told about this and what they've told me, and that she didn't like that I told OMW about when I moved out and that she has asked me for a divorce. I didn't find the lack of a response reassuring. I didn't press or ask directly and in retrospect I'm doubting myself on that, but maybe that wouldn't change anything.
Posted By: SugarCane Re: Should I probe further, and how? - 06/25/20 07:07 PM
I see that Dr Harley replied to you. Would you care to share his advice for those that can't read in that forum?
Posted By: FanPalm Re: Should I probe further, and how? - 06/26/20 08:37 AM
Good idea. I asked for him to explain how the policy of radical honesty applies in this context. Let me share the part he wrote that concerns me or might be useful to others:

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Since you are separated and your wife isn't willing to do anything to reconcile with you, my policies don't apply. But even if you were together and she seemed willing to reconcile, the point of snooping is to gather evidence that would "convince a jury" that your wife is having an affair. If you have that evidence, you can then decide to divorce or expose it in the hope that the light of day will cause it to break up. [...] my best advice is to see an attorney to understand your options.

In other news, my wife let me know that she would end all contact with OM.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Should I probe further, and how? - 06/26/20 12:00 PM
Thanks Fanpalm. We know what his position is on Radical honesty when it applies to an affair or abuse: it does not apply. But we told you that. Obviously, snooping would not be effective if you were honest about it. Honesty makes no sense in that situation.

I would strongly suggest you reach out to the OMW to tell her what your wife told you about ending contact. Ask her to keep you updated on any new developments.
Posted By: FanPalm Re: Should I probe further, and how? - 07/07/20 05:31 AM
I thought I'd update folks on my progress on the plan I outlined:

1. I've been practicing with the bio-feedback meter for 30 minutes/day. I think I've been making some progress in my ability to relax in the absence of any triggers. I'm finding it challenging to come up with reliable ways to trigger my anger response, so I haven't figured out a good way to practice relaxing while triggered. I might have to find a new brand of meter, as my current one seems a bit flaky.
2. I've been writing daily to my wife. I don't think I'm doing a good job at conveying affection. I don't know how I'm doing at admiration. I think I'm practicing honesty and openness.
3. I think I've made progress on radical honesty.
4. I continue to abstain from porn and masturbation and attend addiction recovery group.
5. Lovebusters: my wife is upset about me contacting OMW and upset that I shared with OMW the date when I moved out and that my wife has requested a divorce, and my wife is upset that I didn't tell my wife this promptly. My wife thinks that was an instance of dishonesty and independent behavior and considers it a major betrayal of trust and of her boundaries. I regret not telling her immediately that I had disclosed to OMW about when I moved out, particularly given circumstances that made it particularly relevant to her.
6. I've made little further progress in snooping.
7. Done... but I'm considering taking on a bit of extra work to make some extra money for safety in case my wife loses her job, which is potentially at odds with this.
8. Not done.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Should I probe further, and how? - 07/07/20 07:01 PM
Originally Posted by FanPalm
I thought I'd update folks on my progress on the plan I outlined:


5. Lovebusters: my wife is upset about me contacting OMW and upset that I shared with OMW the date when I moved out and that my wife has requested a divorce, and my wife is upset that I didn't tell my wife this promptly. My wife thinks that was an instance of dishonesty and independent behavior and considers it a major betrayal of trust and of her boundaries. I regret not telling her immediately that I had disclosed to OMW about when I moved out, particularly given circumstances that made it particularly relevant to her.
6. I've made little further progress in snooping.
.

Ok, that is not a lovebuster. You need to explain to her that you have a right to know what the OMW knows [and vice versa] and won't be sharing that information in the future. Like we have told you over and over again, RH does not apply to affairs or abuse. And it is silly to call it "independent behavior." She is manipulating you. Don't be so gullible. Being gullible and allowing your wife to misuse the concepts of MB will not save your marriage.

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6. I've made little further progress in snooping.

Because your wife has scared you off? Let me guess, you view this as some lovebuster?


Posted By: FanPalm Re: Should I probe further, and how? - 07/08/20 08:44 AM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Ok, that is not a lovebuster. You need to explain to her that you have a right to know what the OMW knows [and vice versa] and won't be sharing that information in the future. Like we have told you over and over again, RH does not apply to affairs or abuse. And it is silly to call it "independent behavior." She is manipulating you. Don't be so gullible. Being gullible and allowing your wife to misuse the concepts of MB will not save your marriage.

That was my reaction as well, but I wanted to include it in my report in case I'm missing something. I've already let her know that I don't believe talking to OMW violates any of the MB concepts. Thank you for explaining that it was not a problem to reveal when I moved out to OMW and that I shouldn't feel under an obligation to tell my wife that -- that wasn't obvious to me.

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Because your wife has scared you off? Let me guess, you view this as some lovebuster?

No, I don't view it as a lovebuster. It's primarily because my ability to do much is limited while living separately.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Should I probe further, and how? - 07/14/20 12:57 PM
Fanpalm hows it going with using the meter daily? That would probably be the most effective thing you can do to eliminate love busters
Posted By: FanPalm Re: Should I probe further, and how? - 07/15/20 06:37 AM
Thank you for checking in with me on this. I'm practicing for 30 minutes every day and I've done that successfully since starting the plan. I think I'm making progress but I'd be interested to hear your evaluation of that. When I'm on my own, I can get reliably make the reading on the meter drop at a steady rate, and within a few minutes of that I can get the meter reading down to a low value (about the lowest I've ever gotten it to), basically every time. So if I have a few minutes and I'm alone, I can get to a relaxed state. In a relative sense, that's a lot better than I could do when I started with the meter. I'm not sure if a few minutes is a long time or a short time in an absolute sense, compared to what should be achievable.

Dr. Harley recommends practicing with finding stressful thoughts that cause the meter to rise, and my success rate at that is low. Once I am relaxed, I am having trouble finding triggering thoughts that cause much of a response on the feedback meter. I relax and then I try to think of a painful experience or remember a scenario that was difficult and stressful, and occasionally I'll see a reaction on the meter, but mostly there is little or no impact on the meter reading. Sometimes when I'm trying to relax, the meter reading will randomly start going up a bit (probably I got distracted or something), and then I notice that and the meter reading starts shooting up more rapidly (probably I get anxious after seeing the meter reading going up or judge it as a failure), but now I've learned how to stop that within a second or two if I'm looking at the meter and see it happening.

Dr. Harley also recommends practicing relaxing while thinking stressful thoughts, but because I'm having difficulty finding stressful thoughts that cause a visible response on the meter, I don't know how to make progress on this right now. I might have an idea, though: I think I have a recording of an argument with my wife where she says some things that I found very stressful, and practicing relaxing with the meter while re-listening to that recording might be a challenging test.

I have not tried using the meter while talking to my wife.

I haven't observed any obvious payoff in interactions with my wife yet. I had an interaction with her this weekend that was difficult and painful, where I failed to manage my stress in the moment. She asked what was different about my current plan compared to what I'd been trying before, and instead of answering I responded that I'd be happy to tell her about my current plan. She then repeated her question several times and I repeated my answer several times, without ever answering her question directly. Sigh. That was not good. She was very upset about my response. She said I was being passive aggressive, controlling, and engaging in a power play. Then things devolved and she said several things that I found painful. The interaction was one of the most painful experiences I can remember having in a while. I wish I had responded differently to her question; I'm frustrated and upset with myself that I responded in that way, and that I keep screwing up and our interactions keep ending so badly. I was stressed and scared and that's exactly the kind of situation I'm practicing for, yet I failed to successfully apply any of those skills in the moment and catch myself and respond in a reasonable way. I'm pretty down about that.

I'd welcome any thoughts or reactions you might have on this. And if you have any advice or see any adjustments that might be helpful, I'd be interested to hear that, too. Thank you for stopping by my thread.
Posted By: SugarCane Re: Should I probe further, and how? - 07/15/20 12:12 PM
Originally Posted by FanPalm
I haven't observed any obvious payoff in interactions with my wife yet. I had an interaction with her this weekend that was difficult and painful, where I failed to manage my stress in the moment. She asked what was different about my current plan compared to what I'd been trying before, and instead of answering I responded that I'd be happy to tell her about my current plan. She then repeated her question several times and I repeated my answer several times, without ever answering her question directly. Sigh. That was not good.
Why did you do this?

Originally Posted by FanPalm
She was very upset about my response. She said I was being passive aggressive, controlling, and engaging in a power play.
Do you agree with her assessment?

Originally Posted by FanPalm
Then things devolved and she said several things that I found painful. The interaction was one of the most painful experiences I can remember having in a while. I wish I had responded differently to her question; I'm frustrated and upset with myself that I responded in that way, and that I keep screwing up and our interactions keep ending so badly. I was stressed and scared and that's exactly the kind of situation I'm practicing for, yet I failed to successfully apply any of those skills in the moment and catch myself and respond in a reasonable way. I'm pretty down about that.
What were you stressed and scared about? What was there in her question that meant that you could not simply answer it?

Posted By: FanPalm Re: Should I probe further, and how? - 07/16/20 01:57 AM
Originally Posted by SugarCane
Why did you do this?

I'm not sure how to think about why I do these dumb things. I am not defending it. I wasn't thinking straight. I think I was afraid the discussion would lead to an argument. I somehow got it in my mind that it'd be better to offer to describe the plan and let her decide whether she considered it different or not. So, avoidance of pain? Arrogance? Selfishness? My brain shut off and I responded out of instinct rather than wisdom?

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Do you agree with her assessment?

Not really. But I don't have any great confidence in my judgement on these matters. I don't see it as passive aggressive (but I've been wrong about that many times before). It was an attempt to control the direction of the conversation, but I don't think it was an attempt to control her. I don't know if that's a meaningful distinction or just an attempt to let myself off. I can understand her view of it as a power play, as an attempt to control the framing of the conversation. I don't know if I'm fooling myself or blind to my own bad behavior. I could have answered in any number of ways that would have been constructive, but I didn't.

What's your assessment?

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What were you stressed and scared about?

It's not rational. I am frequently stressed and scared in my interactions with her. What I do feel pretty confident about is that my stress level was high; my thoughts at the cause for that are guessing and speculation. I think I was scared that things were going to go badly. I think I was scared that I would say the wrong thing. I think I was scared it was going to lead to an argument over what elements were truly different vs not. I've seen our interactions go south many times and I am skittish about that and I was not thinking clearly. The stakes are high -- I really want the marriage to succeed; when the interactions go badly I suffer a lot. Her comments immediately before asking the question seemed disparaging to me and I may have been scared they would escalate. I am sensitive to disrespectful judgements. The energy in the room is one that I associate with a precursor to painful experiences. I think I was scared of feeling hurt. I don't know, some or all of those.

In my fear I created a situation that was worse than what I had feared; a self-fulfilling prophecy.

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What was there in her question that meant that you could not simply answer it?

Absolutely nothing. There was nothing in the question preventing me from answering it. I simply didn't. That was not the right response.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Should I probe further, and how? - 07/17/20 03:12 AM
Fan I haven’t done the meter myself but it sounds like a great help. I encourage you to start listening to the radio show daily, it was really effective at helping me treat people thoughtfully. I also used to read that Conversation Is Boring article daily before my ex got home so I could remember my purpose in talking with him. It helps my relationships with my mom and my daughters too.
Posted By: SugarCane Re: Should I probe further, and how? - 07/17/20 12:11 PM
Originally Posted by FanPalm
What's your assessment?
As I understand it, your wife has made it clear that she wants a divorce and does not want to reconcile with you.

You are trying to prevent a divorce and to this end you've created a detailed plan to improve yourself while you continue to reach out to your wife, in the hope of changing her mind.

I've no idea whether your wife will ever change her mind, given the history of your own behaviour that you've described here, but she won't change it if your behaviour in her presence does not change. All the written plans in the world, and all the posting here for feedback on the plans, will have no effect if you continue to behave towards your wife in ways that upset her.

It's that simple.
Posted By: FanPalm Re: Should I probe further, and how? - 07/20/20 07:14 AM
Thank you for your analysis, SugarCane. That makes sense.
Posted By: FanPalm Re: Should I probe further, and how? - 08/14/20 10:04 AM
I thought I'd report on my progress on the plan:

1. I've been doing the bio-feedback daily for 30 minutes, until the past few days. I think it's time to change this to 15 minutes per day; I'm not seeing a clear benefit from this level of time on bio-feedback.
2. I've been writing daily to my wife. I think I'm doing ok at sharing information about myself and trying to seek connection, but struggling to provide affection or admiration.
3. I think I'm doing better at radical honesty and sharing what's going on with me during my daily email. I have one substantial email to write to her, to explain what I think has gone on with me in the past and try to put it all together in one place, which I haven't done yet.
4. I've continued to abstain from porn. I had a slip with masturbation.
5. I don't think I've committed any lovebusters, but we've had no contact.
6. I've hit a dead end on snooping. I assume there's no further contact but I have no way to verify it.
7. I've reduced my workload for the coming year, though I took on a modest consulting job to give us more income safety as my wife's job is at risk.
8. I've been talking to members of my family about my failures and history, and have completed that with 5 of 7 of them. 2 more to go.

I had a conversation with Dr Harley. He explained to me his hypothesis about what is going on with me; he suspects that I stopped liking my wife, and then my instincts try to do things to push her away and try to make me (my non-verbal signs, etc.) repulsive to her. He said my intellect is fighting my instincts and emotions. He asked why I wanted to remain married to her, and when I answered, said that's not a good enough reason. I'm not sure what to do about that. He said my focus needs to be on committing to care for my wife for the rest of my life, and that one can make the choice to care for someone even when you don't like them. He encouraged me to ask her if she'd be willing to speak to him; I did, and she refused and stated her strong opposition to speaking to Dr Harley.

Over the past month or so there's been little or no dialog or communication. She communicates briefly about logistical issues and to forward me articles and little else. She asked me once why I am emailing her; when I responded, she told me that she doesn't find my plan satisfactory and it doesn't address her concerns about safety. I'm discouraged. I go on, but I have little hope for success at saving the marriage. My wife asked for a phone call to tell me why she thinks I have bipolar disorder, and I've scheduled a time to listen to her about that. I don't think I have bipolar disorder, but I will hear her out, reflect on it, and write back to her with my perspective. We've selected a divorce mediator and I am gathering documents on our financial situation.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Should I probe further, and how? - 08/14/20 12:59 PM
Thanks for the update, FanPalm. What articles is she sending you?
Posted By: SugarCane Re: Should I probe further, and how? - 08/14/20 03:58 PM
Originally Posted by FanPalm
I had a conversation with Dr Harley. He explained to me his hypothesis about what is going on with me; he suspects that I stopped liking my wife, and then my instincts try to do things to push her away and try to make me (my non-verbal signs, etc.) repulsive to her. He said my intellect is fighting my instincts and emotions. He asked why I wanted to remain married to her, and when I answered, said that's not a good enough reason. I'm not sure what to do about that.
What Dr Harley apparently said confirms the impression I got when you first posted here and described how badly you had treated your wife. It seemed as if you actively disliked her and were never particularly bothered that you were making her unhappy. It was never clear why her filing for divorce made you want to save the marriage since you seemed to continue to dislike her. I can't see any reason why a woman who has already plucked up courage to separate and file for divorce would ever go back to a husband who treated her as you did.

Posted By: FanPalm Re: Should I probe further, and how? - 08/15/20 07:47 AM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Thanks for the update, FanPalm. What articles is she sending you?

These:

https://www.bphope.com/4-things-about-bipolar-anger-you-might-not-know/
https://www.bipolaruk.org/blog/seeing-red-a-look-at-bipolar-anger
https://www.bphope.com/bipolar-anger-unravel-your-wrath/
https://medicine.umich.edu/dept/prechter-program/bipolar-anger-unravel-your-wrath
https://scontent-sjc3-1.xx.fbcdn.ne...add29f9755abf64f42a8a2e3&oe=5F546C82
Posted By: FanPalm Re: Should I probe further, and how? - 08/16/20 12:12 AM
Originally Posted by SugarCane
What Dr Harley apparently said confirms the impression I got when you first posted here and described how badly you had treated your wife. It seemed as if you actively disliked her and were never particularly bothered that you were making her unhappy. It was never clear why her filing for divorce made you want to save the marriage since you seemed to continue to dislike her. I can't see any reason why a woman who has already plucked up courage to separate and file for divorce would ever go back to a husband who treated her as you did.

SugarCane, thank you for posting on this thread and sharing your impression of me, and letting me know that you also had the same impression. I find it painful to read what you've wrote. I hope all of this will help me change somehow. Perhaps reading your words will help me appreciate better what I've put my wife through and her perspective. I don't think of myself exactly that way, but that might mean it is what I need to hear.

I'm ashamed of how I've treated my wife and sick of myself. I come to this forum because I admire the Marriage Builders program, though I know I fall far short. I guess maybe I hope to get advice, get independent perspective, be accountable, be inspired, refresh my determination, learn, or something. If a rebuke is appropriate I will take that. Or maybe it's that I look up to folks here and wish I could get it right.

I know that you have a lot of experience and wisdom, and I appreciate your willingness to share it with folks here. If you have any advice for me in my position, or any advice on how to determine whether your description is accurate and what implications I ought to take away if it is, I would be glad to hear it.
Posted By: SugarCane Re: Should I probe further, and how? - 08/16/20 01:15 AM
Originally Posted by FanPalm
I know that you have a lot of experience and wisdom, and I appreciate your willingness to share it with folks here. If you have any advice for me in my position, or any advice on how to determine whether your description is accurate and what implications I ought to take away if it is, I would be glad to hear it.
I need to correct you: I don't have any wisdom at all about marriage, and the only experience I have is in my own marriage, and that is not a basis on which I would advise anybody else. The advice that I give is only ever based on what I have heard or read from Dr Harley.

When I read his concept of the love bank, it was the clearest and the only logical description I had ever read about love and marriage. It boils down to doing things that make the other person fall and stay in love with you, and not doing things that make the love disappear. The only way to "determine whether my description is accurate" is to do as I did and add up the things you described about your treatment of your wife, that led her to where she is now, separated from you and wanting a divorce. I could see a number of truly horrible things that you did over a sustained period of time that drained her love for you and made her close your account. Is there anything contrary to this that one could conclude from what you wrote? Have I missed something?

You say that you gave Dr Harley a reason why you wanted to be married, and he said that this wasn't a good enough reason. I might have forgotten where you wrote it, but I don't remember seeing anything about your loving your wife, really badly, as of now, and your wanting to be with her because you love her so much that you can't live without her. I would guess that if you felt like that, this would be coming across in the emails and updates that you send her daily. You'd be sending her love letters, not updates and accountability statements, and she wouldn't be asking what the point of the letters was. If you felt a passionate love for her, you wouldn't be failing to provide affection and admiration in your emails, as you say. Affection and admiration would be pouring out.

I'm not saying that you should now start to fake passionate love in your letters. I suppose I'm asking you the same question Dr Harley asked: why do you want to be married? Why do you want her to get back with you? If the reason isn't because of romantic love, then it isn't a good enough reason and you should leave the poor woman to sort out her life and have the chance find the love that she wants and needs.
Posted By: FanPalm Re: Should I probe further, and how? - 08/16/20 08:18 AM
Thank you, SugarCane. Why do I want to be married to her? I want to create a great marriage where we are romantically in love with each other. I want to do what I think is right, and be right with God. I want to make this marriage work. I think she's a pretty great person in a bunch of ways. I care about her and would like her to be happy. I'd like to make amends.

Dr. Harley's advice to me was to focus on a commitment to a lifetime of care to her. He reminded me that it is possible to act with care and love towards someone no matter how you feel about them. He also suggested I study his letter to couple #3 (I assume he was talking about this one: https://www.marriagebuilders.com/dating-is-not-always-a-good-idea.htm). He also recommended that I see if she would be willing to talk to him.

Yes, my assessment is that the things I've done have drained her love for me and made her close her account. It's a wonder that she's held on this long; it speaks to her strength or perserverance. Of the three states Dr. Harley mentions (Intimacy, Conflict, and Withdrawal), I assume she is in Withdrawal and her love bank is sharply in the negative. I'd guess that I am also in Withdrawal and my love bank is in the negative as well, to whatever extent that's relevant.

I hope that I am not being difficult. I had the impression of a somewhat different message from Dr. Harley than I perceive in your message. I don't know if that's a failure to understand on my part. I'm interested in understanding that better.
Posted By: FanPalm Re: Should I probe further, and how? - 08/17/20 06:35 AM
SugarCane, I realized I should have asked more questions. Can you elaborate on what concretely would be involved in leaving my wife to sort out her life? What actions would I take? Stop writing to her? Something else?
Posted By: SugarCane Re: Should I probe further, and how? - 08/17/20 04:51 PM
Surely nobody needs advice on how to leave someone alone. But the thing is, I'm not telling you to leave her alone. Rather, I was exploring Dr Harley's assessment that you have not cited a good reason for wanting to be married to her.

You're on the private forum, and therefore receiving advice directly from Dr Harley. I would never knowingly say anything to contradict his advice. Have you asked him how you can make Plan A deposits while you are separated, with sparse and reluctant communication from your wife who is pursuing a divorce?
Posted By: FanPalm Re: Should I probe further, and how? - 08/21/20 09:11 AM
That's a good idea. I will ask in the private forum.

I asked about that on my phone call with Dr. Harley and he gave me some advice. His advice was that I focus on a commitment to providing care to her and "planting a seed" of that in my communications with her. He talked to me about why my instincts may be leading me in the wrong direction. However, it wasn't the primary focus of what he talked about with me, so I will ask more specifically about that. I've also asked Sandy, my coach.
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