I'll start from the beginning. We've been married for 18 yrs together for 20. About 5 yrs ago I had a PA with a co worker which never really got resolved between my wife and I. It kind of just went away so there have been pent up feelings since then. It was compounded by a couple of email contacts that wife found out about after I had told her we disconnected. We were in a different state so contact was impossible not that it matters to her. Since things were never resolved, I got off kind of easy so I never really had to show much remorse and things began to slide. I was wasn't very good in the support department either, as far her career and otherwise. We are both active duty military, she's been in 20 yrs and i've been in 23yrs. Anyway, our awesome marriage began to slide because of my sins. We used to have a text book happy marriage with an unbelievable sex life, no complaints. My affair was purely for male satisfaction and my need for attention not that I was missing this from her. I just needed more, like a teenager, midlife crisis I think. Our relationship began to sour a little but I never thought we were that bad. Sex was the main sticking point for us in the following yrs. She became unhappy because of my lack of support and jealousy. This jealousy and non-support grew afterward because of my decrease in affection from her, I was never a jealous man before. Like I said, I thought our relationship wasn't perfect but not even close to the edge in my mind. I've learned now that she says she was keeping things in and faking happiness to save the family. What a blow. Anyway, last year she deployed to the desert for 7 months, she returned 4 mos ago. We had email communication the whole time and other than the usual spat, I though things were normal. She was happy to be coming home, wanted to plan a vacation, said she missed me but in hindsight, i never noticed any affection toward me. She was different when she got home and I asked her about it. She unloaded everything on me. She's out of love, doesn't think it will ever come back. Too much pain and withholding, i hurt her too much and her time away allowed her to think things out and she wanted to be happy again. This would be without me. I asked her directly if there was someone she met while gone and she said no. Since she was in her moment of honesty, I figured she would've come clean if she needed to. For 3 mos, she was cold. No "i love yous" no touching, no sex. Actually we had 3 encounters that were nothing more than her giving me an outlet and it hasn't happened since. She went on a businees trip to the states (we live out of the US)for 2 weeks. We had talked and she said this would be a good time away to think about things and see if maybe things could start in a positive direction. After a week, she called me up and told me that the military had given her a "no contact" order and that she was to have no contact with this other man. She confessed to having a EA/PA with a man she met while in the desert. He is an military person too and he was in the class she was in, with her. They had planned it that way and he was married too (he lives in another country). They got caught because his wife found emails and called his boss to press charges. My wife and he will face disciplinary charges which are pending. His career is over since he was higher ranking. As soon as she told me about it, I asked her if she wanted our marriage to work and keep our family together or was this it, she said she wanted to stay together and work things out. She actually told me that the two of them had talked about ending their A and seeing about getting their marriages back on track, since they live in different countries, it was most likely the last time they'd see each other anyway. She said he wanted to continue things with her but said she never expressed the desire to leave her family for him. None of that matters anyway. I am totally committed to saving our marriage and have already forgiven her, i did on the spot. I've never had a doubt about loving her and still do despite the affair. I had a instant image of this being a chance to start over and get things back on track. I will say that mental images haunt me from time to time but nothing like i ever imagined, I think the last 3 months have gotten me so scared of losing her that even an affair has made little impact on me. Since she came back from the states, things have improved dramatically from what they were. We actually talk to each other, she says she loves me from time to time and she even snuggles with me once in awhile. Now when I ask, she is still hesitant to commit to saving the relationship. She still says she's unsure of what will happen. She hopes that her feelings will change but is doing nothing to try to change things. Her job is very demanding and since the day after she returned from the states, she has been working a minimum of 12-14 hr days and weekends sometime also. She's worried about her legal actions, she overworked and she is worried about the marriage but says she has little time to think about it much less do anything. I pretty much handle most things around the house because of her work hours and I'm happy to do so, I've been good as far as those kinds of thing go, for years. Plus I just finished being Mr mom for 7 mos. We have 3 kids. We haven't told the kids anything but they know something is different. So, here we are. Things are quiet. We never fight, it's pretty much pointless to fight, we both know that. But things are just...there. Nothing. We did go to dinner on the 31st for our anniversary, it went well. I want to pend time with her alone but don't want to push anything. She is still very distant. I've been doing what I can to give her space, I don't bring anything up. I'm working on myself although I've become somewhat of a codependent and it's really working on me. I've been applying my skills learned from MB and other sources. I think they all have good experience and apply to our situation. But things are just so stagnant. I mean, seldom is there any affection shown. Sometimes she doesn't even aknowledge me when I come in the house. There are many positive "static" things like our vacation that we're planning for the summer. She talks of our future together but sometimes mentions a future apart. I know some of you are thinking that our situation isn't so bad but it's killing me. We used to be so physical and affectionate, the rejection and lack of touch is just tearing me apart. I am showing my affection by hugging her and kissing her when appropriate. I definitely don't push her for anything, mostly good night and goodbye kisses. I haven't even come close to talking about sex at all. She tells me that I'm a perfect man, a perfect father, couldn't ask more from me around the house. Tells me that other people would think her crazy for doing what she's doing. Once in awhile a little mistrust will creep in on me. I keep reminding myself that her actions are hers and I can't do anything about them. Maybe I'm just being impatient. I'm just so optimistic that I'm itching to get going. This idleness is making me fearful of our marriage slipping into the same lull it was in before her deployment. I just want things to be better, not the same as when we were young, but better. She's not spiteful, she's not harassing, just distant and indifferent. Do i just continue as I am and hope for the best or are there things I can do to get things moving? Now that I've written things down, i feel as if I'm just whining and things aren't really that bad. I frequently feel depressed and hurt and cry alot. I try my hardest not to show it in front of her and never in front of the kids. She tells me that when she sees me hurt it makes it even harder on her, but harder how? I haven't cried in front of her in awhile. I slept on the couch a couple of times when I couldn't keep it in. Once she came down in the morning and laid on the couch with me. She actually asked me to come to bed with her once also. Last night I went down stairs till early morning because I couldn't hold it together. Laying next to her and not being able to touch her is a punishment worse than anything. She snuggles occasionally and I'm grateful. I just don't know where to go from here. She says that things may get better when she finds out what's going to happen with the legal things, it could be months from now. Sometimes she says she may never recover from all this. She still hasn't forgiven herself, I just tell her she is a beautiful person who made a terrible mistake just as i did. I've been seeing a counselor for a month and continue to. I've spoken with my chaplain a couple of times. I am constantly on the web looking for info to help. She has gone to the chaplain once. I'm concerned about her emotional health and have let her know that she is welcome to come with me to talk with my counselor if she feels up to it, she refuses, says she's not ready. I've asked her to talk with anyone, anyone, with or without me but she's not ready. I'm really concerned that she's killing herself, she's lost alot of weight, as have I. I just dont know, maybe I'm just looking for some reassurance or someone to tell me that I'm moving in the wrong direction. My counselor seems pretty optimistic but she doesn't get to see my wife and her reactions. I'm just wondering...

Dino69

Can't tell you what to do but be understanding as possible and let here know you're there. I'm in the same boat but for different reasons. I can connect with the struggle to sleep beside her and not make advances. It's counter to our nature and it's killing me.

Good luck bud.

It sounds like you are doing a lot of the right things. May I ask what you are doing to deal with your depression and how that's going? I am pretty new here myself, so I feel a little sheepish offering any advice, but for me personally, I think it would be hard to fall back in love with my husband while he is depressed. Do you think that your wife might be picking up on this at all?

I hope that things will get better soon for you. Be patient and take good care of yourself

Absolutely, and she tells me so. I just can't seem to get over feeling so down around her because of the situation. I try to be as cheery as possible but you can only mask your disappointment so much. I do ok much of the time but she tells me that she sees it and it adds to her already heavy burden. It's the lack of affection that gets me, we used to be so physical, I'm like an addict without a fix. She's been better after the A was found out, she surprises me sometimes with little things, but it makes it worse in a way. I guess I just get my hopes up so high that the fall is worse when I'm disappointed. I need to work on myself, I know that. I don't do the things I do with results as an expected outcome. I do them because I want to be better and get our marriage back but she's not in the right place to even try right now. She's told me that if I made her choose "right now" she would choose to split up. She's says that she can't say how she'll feel a month from now, 6 months? She says it would be hasty to make a decision with all the things weighing on her right now. She even tells me that she hates that feels the way she does and wishes she could flip a switch and change but she can't. I just need to find a way to be patient and to stay positive or I won't last to see a positive result if there winds up being one. I know what I want and am committed, I just need more tools and I'm constantly looking for them, if there is anything anyone has for me, please let me know.

Dino, you might get some better advice if you post this over in Infidelity. That's where all the people who've had experience like yours will be, and can offer you help. Plus, there's a LOT more traffic over there!

If you do, would you mind going through your post and breaking it up into paragraphs? It's really hard to read it this way.

I'm not sure this would be a tool, but for me what helps is watching out for negative thoughts and forcing myself to try and turn my thoughts into something positive. For example, if I caught myself feeling sad that my husband wasn't sure about staying in the marriage, I would say to myself, he's still here so we have a chance, yea me! Ok, you don't have to add the "yea me" if that's too girly for you But basically try to end on a positive note. I think you probably do this naturally at work since you are in the military, so I bet you'd quickly get the hang of it.

Kind of along the same vein, maybe it would help you if you remind yourself that you need to BE positive for your family, not just fake it. Focus on how much you love your wife and family. When you feel sad, you are kind of pulling a "poor me" which means you're not thinking about your family, but just of you.

Something else you could try is making lists of things you are happy for ... I do that when I'm really down in the dumps and it does help me.

Well that's all I can think to suggest for now. What do you think? Don't be too hard on yourself.

I really appreciate it. I guess I'm just on a down swings right now. I know all those things you told me but I slip into a rut and it seems like nothing helps. I keep thinking time will make it better but 4 months down now and I don't feel any better. The last couple of days have been pretty rough, I'm just concentrating on not doing anything to lose any of the little progress we've made. I'm seeing someone about my depression this week, if I could just get pass that part, I should be able to cope much better. Thanks again.

Dino, I'm sending you a big virtual hug ... {{{{{{{DINO}}}}}}}

Keep trying. You might not see results at first, but if you keep plugging away, it'll add up. I know you already know that, but hopefully it helps to hear someone else say it.

Before we got married, my husband (then bf) and I went through a period of separation because he wasn't sure he wanted to stay in the relationship. It's not exactly the same as your situation, but I think it is similar enough that I can understand how you are feeling right now. I remember that I too did not feel any less sad after 4 months. But looking back now, I realize I was getting better ... becoming a better person like you are doing now ... I think it was just such a painful experience it was hard to tell that there was less pain. At about 9 months is when I finally stopped feeling down and ironically that is when my husband decided that he did want us to be together.

One other thing I forgot to mention that helped me was talking to understanding friends. One of my good friends sat patiently through hours and hours of my trying to figure out what went wrong ... I'd feel bad, but she ended up meeting her future husband at the bar we would go to. You can always vent here if you need to.

You'll get past this, don't worry. Yea Dino!!

Snuggle

You have no idea how good it feels to hear you say that. I know my depression is one of our biggest sticking points right now. I'm really trying and can see the differences in her on my good days vs. my bad days. I'm doing alot of the things I need to do to feel better with myself. I'm not really wasting away, still working out and cooking dinner is one of the things we do together quite often. I'll keep you updated on progress, hope to have good news for you during the upcoming weeks.

thanks again...

Sorry Dino....I just need to jump in on your chat with snugglefresh!

Hey Snuggle...are you well? Haven't seen activity from you in a while.

Dino -- as a wife, I can say, keep trying. Just be the man you would want if you were in her shoes. Love her and be patient. It will probably be harder on her to let herself off the hook than it will for you. Hopefully you'll both find peace.

Hi Dino! Hi fiori!

Dino, how's your week going? Are you taking good care of yourself and doing things to keep your spirits up? Do you need chocolate (always works for me ...hee, hee!)?

fiori, I'm doing fine. I just got back from a conference in San Diego so that is why I haven't been here lately. Two of my friends who live right near where the conference was held are getting divorced, so I saw them and spent a lot of time catching up with the wife. I'm friends with the husband too, but being a guy I think it is harder for him to talk about what is going on with him. It made me a little sad I sent a link to this website to the wife, but I she has not really checked it out. I probably should have sent it to the husband because he is the betrayed spouse. She had an emotional affair so she is probably kind of foggy. But I feel like maybe that would be too pushy.

Snuggle
I have a specific question for you. By the way, things have been ok, nothing earthshattering, just moving along. We're still getting along well, I guess I can call it progress.

I get conflicted about something. Sometimes I feel the need to ask a question about something and I find myself getting real anxious because I try to weigh my need to know against the effect it will have on her. I'm already making sure that when I ask, it is during a time that is condusive to cordial talk so that emotins are less likely to effect the conversation. But I get real mixed up on whether it's important enough to risk a step back in our situation. I know I'm the only one who can say whether it's important enough, but is there a point in the recovery period that pointed questions should be avoided? It seems that depending on my mood, some of these questions are more important than when I'm in a better mood. I just want to avoid any unneccessary trouble. What do you think?

That is a really good question and I can definitely relate. The other day I was listening to the rebroadcast of Dr. Harley's radio show and he talked with a woman caller who asked a similar question and one thing he said that really hit home for me was that you should never bring up an issue when you are still mad about it and then he laughed and said he knew that what we are thinking is "but later it won't bother me and I might not bring it up." Which is exactly the point, right? OMG, I can't tell you how many times I fell into that trap!!

So similarly, when you realize that a question is only important when you are in a certain mood, then maybe it's not the question driving you, but your mood. I think you answered your own question when you said "I just want to avoid any unneccessary trouble"

I know mastering bad moods is easier said than done. I do think it's worth putting effort into though because it makes you a better person, especially for others. I've had a few bosses who were moody and they sucked! So when I need motivation I remind myself of what I don't want to be like ... LOL! And of course being moody at home is even more damaging, so that is a good motivator too. What about you? Any similar experiences?

Yea, I know what you mean.

The thing is, I'm very good at not letting moods get to me at work. It's this situation that's got me all out of whack. Most of us have never had to deal with anything like this so there's experience to fall back on. I'm starting to get my bearings though. Like I said, if I can fight through that initial "need" to know something, I can usually get by. I'm just making sure that I'm being true to myself also, that's where I hit the conflict. Can I or can I not live with the thing in question? I always used to ask my wife that. I'd say, "if you can live with it, why bring it up?". There may have been some fault in that logic though, it may have contributed to our current situation after all these years of "living with it".

Thanks again Snuggle

Dino,
Do yourself a favor...lean on Snuggle. I'm not quite sure how or why, but her words are comforting at just the right time. I'm quite sure she never went through what I did, but knowing that she would offer me a virtual hug and kind supportive words was enough to keep me coming back here and keep me sane.

Thanks Fiori

God knows I need some help right now. I just can't seem to come to grips with my baby of 20 yrs not loving me anymore. I can barely get through each day without a breakdown (on my own, not in front of her). I have an appt tomorrow to try and get a handle on my depression but I just can't see the light right now. The pain is tearing out my insides. The A is just an afterthought, not being able to touch or feel the love from my wife is unbearable. It's affecting everything I do, I can't keep my thoughts straight, why is it affecting me so bad and why can't I just get over it?

Dino I'm sorry you are still hurting so much. I know you can't see the light right now, but it IS there. Believe it! How are you managing your breakdowns right now? Do you have a strategy to get yourself back on track when you feel one coming on?

Please don't be so hard on yourself. It's obvious you love your wife very much so of course you're not just going to "get over" the fear that she no longer loves you. But recognize that it is fear. What do you do in the military to deal with fear? I've always been curious about this! Maybe that will help you reframe what you are feeling in a way that you can handle more easily.

Remember that you can reignite the spark in your marriage. This board is full of stories of people who have done and are doing that. The common denominator seems to be patience and selfless service to the marriage. It's been a lesson to me seeing how people (like fiori) put their ego aside (especially their anger and fear which are such powerful emotions) and focus on bettering their marriage and taking care of their spouse and how much stronger their marriages are for it. Are you following any of the other threads on here?

Fiori, thanks for the kind words. I don't think I deserve them, but I'm glad if I helped a little and even gladder that you and your husband are working things out.

Snuggle
I don't know where the breakdowns come from, but the last couple of days haven't been good. If I don't think about the situation, I manage well. But seeing her everyday is a reminder of how she doesn't love me and it is killing me. Bedtime is the worst, I get real anxious everynight because I want to lay with her so bad but there is no physical contact at all. I'm really trying but keeping my mind clear is easier said than done. I'm going to the states this weekend for 2 weeks and I'm not sure if it will be a good thing or not.

I know fear is the key. She just seems so convinced that our love is gone. She just doesn't comprehend that love and marriage need work to keep alive. She's still in the mindset that if you don't feel it, it isn't here and she wants to give it up. I am scared. I know I can't tell the future but the pain is real, and it's affecting my entire existence right now. I'm doing really good with the marriage building and all that but it's taking a toll. I'm trying to be strong. It was all so sudden that I don't think I've stopped spinning yet. How does someone change overnight like that? This is another one of the war "casualties" that never gets talked about in the news. Time away is a marriage killer for us military people. The stress of being in that dangerous place breeds an environment of need that gets fulfilled by the first person to fit the bill. Those of us at home are left to deal with the carnage that was once our marriage.

Hey Dino! How did your appointment go today? I hope it was helpful to you.

So what is your wife doing to make you think she is convinced love is gone? I am wondering if maybe you are reading too much into things. After all, she is still with you, so to me it indicates that at worst, she is not sure, and not at all that she is convinced love is gone. That would make no sense to me. If she was truly convinced, it would be easy for her to leave. So, is she saying this to you on a daily basis? Or are you assuming this is what she is thinking?

Is your wife not allowing any physical contact at all? No hugs even? What would she do if you just maybe patted her on the shoulder? Just in a comforting way, not in a way that would indicate you want more than just to be a friend. I mean, I know you want more, but right now it's a friend she needs and if you are what she needs that's how you get back to being her love too.

I'm not sure how you can lower your anxiety at bedtime. But here is something I see that maybe you can work with. I feel like I am hearing too much "I" on this topic. You see your wife and you start thinking about ... YOU ... how you really want to lay down with her. I know as always this is easier said than done, but can you turn to thinking about her? How is she feeling? Did she have a rough day? Is she lonely? Is she stressed out from work? What can you do to ease things for her or make her more comfortable? Does she need an extra blanket? The window open? If your mind is filled by thoughts of caring for her, it might keep your other thoughts at bay. I know if I were her and you started to do little things to care for me like that, it would make a difference in how I felt about you. Ok, at first I might be suspicious that you are faking it, but I'd be watching to see if it sticks. This is basically what they call Plan A on this board. You know your wife better than I of course and maybe you think she wouldn't respond the same way. Do you think she's different?

Ok, I'm rambling today so sorry about that! Last thing ... you are strong and you are going to make it through this. I'm pulling for you so you better

Snuggle
The appointment went great, I felt alot better after just talking. Funny thing is, she was saying all the same things I've read about here on MB. WW is just in a bad place right now, I know that. As for your question, there's no doubt all those things about love being gone are in my head. She tells me she loves me (but not in love) when we have our discussions, but I truly believe she does love me. I'm hoping it's the fog that's got her. The thing that worries me about her "still being here" is that since were in the UK, it's harder to split housing costs. She's told me that if we were in the states, she would've moved out. I've actually asked her if she wanted me to move out with friends and she said no, uses the kids as an excuse. I don't want to move out but I would do it if it would help in anyway. I do make alot of assumptions and I need to stop, luckily I keep those to myself so it doesn't hurt any progress, if there is any.

As for physical contact, I feel like such a s#@t because I probably have it alot better than some in my position. She does hug me sometimes and pats me on the head or leans over in the morning and puts her head on my shoulder. I get to kiss her on the cheek or forehead and sometimes she kisses me on top of the head. So I should be happy and I am. i just get impatient sometimes, I can't help it. I just know down deep that things can be great if we just get moving. But we are moving I guess, I should be satisfied.

As for the bedtime thing, I do take care of her. I have to be careful about smothering her though. There is a fine line between being thoughtful and being overbearing, you know? Once she goes up to bed, I wait for awhile, then I go up and give her a kiss on the cheek and tell her I love her and let her sleep. I'm trying to give her the space she says she needs. Her work is gringding her into the floor and all the events of the past few weeks are on top of all that. She is really in a tough spot and it tears at me to see her in all that pain, so I do what I can to ease that. She does say thank you all the time, but she's still seems a little stand offish. I don't think she feels that all of this is genuine. She's told me before she doesn't think I'll be able to change things, she doesn't think I'll be able to forgive her or look at her the same way again. She thinks I'll always mistrust her and smother her with questions and snooping and stuff like that. Time will tell I guess. I have told her that it's disrespectful towards me to try to tell me how I will act in the future and that she should let my actions dictate her feelings about me. I don't know if she'll ever let herself open up to me again but I can't help that.

Believe me Snuggle, I only have thoughts of caring for her, the guilt of all the things I've done in the past rips at my heart. I can't believe I treated her the way I've done in the past, I just want to care for her and make her healthy and happy again. I do get overwhelmed sometimes with the feeling of rejection but those times are getting farther apart. They do hurt but I'll manage.

Thanks for your thoughts, I hope to bring you goods news one day. Keep an eye out for me, I value your comments, they help more than you know.

Hi Dino!

Well if you ask me, you already have brought some good news. Your wife being open to hugs and kisses is great. It sounds like you kind of know this already. You can be patient. Your wife deserves your patience. Just keep being there for her during this tough time in her life.

I know that whenever I have a major problem at work, it's hard for me to get my mind off it and want more physical contact from my husband other than just spooning. Honestly the comfort of being spooned means so much to me. But at those times, my head is just too full of other thoughts and worries to allow me to get in the mood for more ... I just want to empty my head so I can fall asleep and don't stay up worrying all night. It's not you she's rejecting. It's just she's stuck in her head with her worries. Don't take it personally ... that is not how it's meant.

Snuggle
I really appreciate your support. I've been in a pretty dang good mood for the last couple of days. I can really tell the little bit of difference in her when I'm like that. Not that there's any significant change in how she is with me physically, but she seems a little more at ease, you know? It's still tough to live like a roommate but part of what I talked about during my appt, was finding ways to control my thoughts when the going gets tough. At least I'm making conscious decisions about it now and it works most of the time.

One thing that still bugs me though Snuggle. I had a talk with her a couple of weeks ago about NC. Basically I just voiced my opinion that contact with OM would have a detrimental effect on us if we're moving toward making things better. She basically told me that she wasn't contacting him but due to their situation with legal matters in the military, she said that she was concerned with his well being and that maybe in the future (months/years?) they may have contact just to see if things were ok with family and whatnot. I told her I understood the thing about her being friends with anyone she wants, but I also said she had crossed the line with this guy and that I wouldn't/couldn't support her having contact with him, period, if recovering our marriage is what she wants. I told her I wouldn't bring this subject up again and it was up to her to make the decision she feels is right for us. Now I felt good about telling her that, but it does still eat at me sometimes to think that she may be in contact. I've done all the snooping I can and have never come up with anything. If there is NC, I don't want to sabotage things by getting caught digging around in her business. Should I leave that subject alone and hope that she is being honest with me? Obviously I still have some trust issues but I'm definitely trying to be positive when it comes to things like this. The only reason it bugs me sometime, is that when she is in her rougher moods, I sometimes think it may be because of contact with OM, because of the things I read here on MB. You know how they say that contact can cause the WW/WH to digress in any progress? That's the only reason I have doubts. I've never seen anything other than that to prove otherwise. Am I just being to sensitive to things? Should I leave it alone? Afterall, I did tell her I wouldn't bring the subject up again and I don't want to come of as untrustworthy either. She also has trust issues with me because of things in our past. Just wanted to get your take on this situation.

Thanks again Snuggle, I'm looking forward to your reply.

ciao

Hi Dino! You sound so much better today. I am chuckling a little imagining you spotting the slight changes in your wife and reacting inside with hopeful anticipation a bit like my dog when he sees me in the vicinity of the treat jar. By the way, I think if you notice a slight change in the outward attitude of your wife that usually indicates a bigger change in feeling on the inside. So keep up whatever you're doing !!

Your question is an interesting one. If I read your post right, your wife wanted to leave open the possiblity of contacting the OM later just to make sure he is doing ok. I can kind of understand that. After all she did care about him and now they are both in trouble, so I understand the impulse to check. But if you think about the next steps she might realize that it is not a good idea ... if he's ok then she risks ruining both their progress past this episode for nothing. And if he's not ok, it's unlikely that she would really be in any position to fix it for him and she might make things worse. So you are totally right to insist on no contact.

You know your wife best ... what do you think her reaction would be if she caught you snooping? I hate to admit this, in fact I've only ever told one other person, but I have snooped in a past relationship. I didn't like how it made me feel about myself or the relationship. I've sinced decided never to stoop to that level again. I know there are others here who advocate it, but it's not for me. I certainly understand where the impulse comes from though.

So did your wife agree that she wouldn't contact the OM again? Or if she does contact him will she let you know, so it is out in the open? I think you have to gauge where your relationship is right now to know whether or not to bring it up. If it is possible for you to talk to your wife about the affair without it turning into a fight, you could say to her "I know I said I wouldn't bring this up again and if you don't want to answer you don't have to, but I sometimes find myself worrying you might contact OM again. I hope you won't. But if you do, please don't hide it from me. I want us to be able to tell each other everything from now on. Ok honey?" or something like that. That way you will know if she does contact him and no longer have to worry about it ... you can cross that bridge if it ever comes, right? If you're lucky she'll say that she's decided you were right and she's not going to contact him again ever, but she might not be ready to say that yet so be prepared to be supportive either way. I think you are very smart to consider how your words and actions will affect your trust issues. Snooping definitely won't help, but maybe practicing open and honest communication will get you moving in the right direction.

I do think you are probably being oversensitive thinking that when she is in a worse mood that it is because she has had contact with the OM. It sounds like there is a lot of stress going on right now at work for your wife, so it seems more likely that this is the source of her problems don't you think?

Anyway, I hope you have a good weekend. Do you have any plans? Hopefully you are getting in some of that 15 hours a week one-on-one time We will be doing yard work tomorrow together ... kills 2 birds with one stone for us ... one-on-one time AND housekeeping...LOL! So not romantic, but it does contribute to keeping me happy in the marraige

Snuggle
Funny how God puts people in your life, I just wanted to thank you for taking your time to chat with me. It really helps and it feels good to hear that, along with seeing the positive signs from my wife, I seem to be doing the right things. The best thing is, I'm enjoying doing what I do, it's not a burden to me and it's helping me accept the mistakes I've made in the past. This is how I should've been all along.

About the NC thing. She's told me that she will be honest and tell me upfront. That's one of the reasons why I don't want to bring it up again, unless there is an obvious sign. And you're right about another thing, I don't like snooping, as a matter of fact, I hate it. It makes me feel like crap and I don't want to do ever again. So I've decided to leave that as a dead subject, I'm tired of negativity and I'm not going to waste another ounce of my energy on things that aren't positive.

So Snuggle, unfortunately I'm in Texas for the next 2 weeks for an Air Force class so our 15 hrs will have to wait till I get home. Separation is something that we have dealt with over our 18 yrs although I think it isn't a very good thing at this time. It's also one of the reasons we're planning on retiring in the next yr or two. I have some really good news though, I think we've made somewhat of a break through, I'm not sure but I think she may have turned a corner. I left on saturday morning the 19th, on friday night when we went to bed, she climbed over and layed on my chest and cried and said she missed me and was worried about me traveling. She held my hands and caressed me and said she couldn't sleep. She broke down and told what a terrible mistake she made and how bad she feels. She said she didn't know if she could ever get over what she did and how dissappointed she was for letting herself be so weak. It felt so good to have her touch me like that again and really act like she cared about me. I haven't felt that in a year. I didn't say much, just held her and told her everything will be ok. I told her I really missed her too and that no matter what, I'd be here for her through everything. She drove me to the shuttle the next morning and kissed me on the cheek.

I'm in a good place right now but I'm sure you can understand my tentativeness. We're at least moving in the right direction and that's a good thing. I still get those negative feelings creeping in, it happens when all you've known for months is pain and dissappoinment, you expect more of the same. But I think she may be starting to come around. I'm starting to feel like a little kid who's parents told him they're going to Disneyland, don't know when they're going, but they're going. And when they get there, it's going to be wonderful.

Thanks again Snuggle, I'll keep you updated, good or bad.

Sounds much better, dino. Great work! Re the NC, MB says absolutely no contact, ever - once a feeling, always a feeling. Now, if you're leaving it up to her and she promises to inform you, add that you have to be with her when she makes the contact if by phone, and if by email, it will have to come to your own email address - and she will have to change her email so he can't find her.

For now, pay for the phone bill, and call her as many times a day as you can. She needs to keep focusing on you and coming to depend on you again. Send a real, live letter every day - tangible attention (and romantic). If it's not too much, pay for a plant to be delivered to her work, so her coworkers see you and her interacting - helps make straying hard to do.

Keep up the good work.

Hey Cat
I really appreciate you thoughts, you guys here at MB have been a blessing to me. A couple of months ago I was a basket case, I mean for real. And this was before I found out about the A. I had alot of work to do on myself before I could even begin to help "us" out. I'm still a long ways away from where I want to be but at least I'm getting better.

As for the NC thing. I know MB says no contact..period, but as with anything else, you have to interpret things to fit a situation. I agree with the concept and the effects it could have if they kept in contact, especially if they lived in the same city. But somehow, I've got to let her make her own decisions. Being a possessive, overbearing knucklehead is part of the reason we're in this situation now, doing that again will only reinforce the fact that she's been unhappy with our marriage for the last 5 yrs. She's a grown woman, she has accepted the fact that she made a terrible mistake with this affair, she will also have to face herself if she makes the mistake again of letting herself become weak once more. I'm lucky in the fact that they live in different countries. But I'm not going to treat her like a child, she does deserve more than that. I have to have faith that I can begin to have some trust in her once again. It has to start somewhere and it's going to start with me. If she proves me wrong then I'll go from there. But I'm just too tired of living because of what "might" happen. I can only do so much and she has to make some rational decisions sooner or later. She has to see daily what she will decide to give up if she chooses the other road. I have to live with the choice she makes, either way I'm going to be ok. I truly believe she will make the right choice, I have faith that the promises we made 18 yrs ago still hold true. We've now both broken those promises to protect each other and I believe we are at a crossroad. I've made it clear to her what my decision and goals are, now she has to make her decision. I think she has, she's still very skeptical of me as well though. I haven't been the husband she's needed, I carry that guilt. Don't get me wrong, I don't wallow in it. But I know my role in this nigthmare and I accept it. I can only prove myself through action that takes time. We will see, she knows I love her, she's scared of going back to how it was and I understand that fear, I don't want it that way again either. Cat, I do want her focus to be on me but I don't want it do be a negative one.

Wow Dino, I am blown away by the strength in your words. You've taken an honest look at yourself and you have such a solid sense of what is the right thing to do by your wife. The man you are today is one that your wife would be wise to hold on to. If she is anything like you, I think your marriage is going to heal and become just great.

Hey Snuggle

Those words are easy to write, we'll see how well I stick to them eh? So I'm really lonely here in Texas. It's the first time in awhile I've been away from my kids. They've been my anchor since all this craziness started and I really miss them right now. I'm still really scared Snuggle, even though I talk a good game. I say I'm going to be ok if my wife and I part ways and I will, eventually. But I don't want to be apart from her, I love her so much. I WILL be ok but not until after having my heart and soul ripped from me you know?

I talked with the family last night. They're 6 hrs ahead of me timewise, so it's going to be hard to talk with them before they go to sleep. Wife seemed in a good mood to talk but she didn't get home until 8:30 at night and she sounded tired. I can't wait till she's retired and done with that job, it's killing her.
We joked and laughed a little but she sometimes hurts my feelings with some of her "jokes". We were talking about how we would get along moneywise, once she retired. She thinks I'll do well once I retire and start in a new career, she says "hey, since I won't have a job anymore, you'll be able to pay me spousal support", she laughed about it but those kinds of things aren't in my laughter category quite yet. I still have a long way to go.

Again, thanks for the support Snuggle.

Snuggle, did you read my post from the 21st? What do think about that? Was there a defining moment for you in your situation? Was there a single moment that you said to yourself "I think we're going to be ok"? I want so bad to say that was it but, you can understand my wanting to protect myself also...

Have you followed the steps here at MB for surviving an A? It doesn't sound like it because (and this is not my area, so forgive if I get it wrong) I think one of the key tenets when you get 'back together' to work on the M is complete openness and honesty (transparency) on both your parts. Therefore, if you and she agree to follow these rules, she will let you know before she ever contacts him again so that you can have a say, and she will let you know immediately if he contacts her.

It's an agreement you two are supposed to make. If you spell it out, lay it on the table, that you will follow these steps, you have a better chance of it working. That is not, IMO, being overbearing - it's being logical and using proven methods for keeping your marriage whole, and not about you at all. Does that make sense?

Don't get me wrong Cat, I understand all of the MB methods and everything. As of right now, she is still in her foggy "I'm not sure" mode. She believes we have a chance to work things out but has yet to make that real commitment to start working on her end. She's still in the mindset that if it's meant to be, things will work out. I've talked to her about the "work" it will take but as you know, it's still a touchy situation we have here. Once she makes the conscious decision to work towards it, and I believe she will, then I can start to show her the things I've learned here and she will be more receptive to doing things on her part. She still isn't ready to talk with anyone or read any of my books yet. She's just not ready.

As for the NC thing. We've made our agreement on that subject. If she makes any contact with him, she's supposed to let me know. Part of the openness and honesty thing is to have trust also. Is there any REAL way to know if someone is being totally open and honest with you? Somewhere along the way you have to put some faith in the person you love. I realize trust has already been broken, but sooner or later, I'm going to have to make a decision myself to either trust, or not trust. I may be making a mistake, if I am, then we go from there. If I'm right and she is being open and honest with me, then I have that much of a head start for my own healing process and she may be able to see my support for her. I really appreciate your concern. None of these decisions come easy at all. Everyone here knows that this situation is the worst thing we ever have to deal with in our lives. Nothing is going to be easy and even as I write this, I'm dissecting every decision I make. I'm torn inside about everything still. But I have to do what I think is right for me and my marriage. Only time will tell if I'm right. So far things have been moving in the right direction. I'm hoping that one day I will be able to tell my story of success in recovering what I hold most dear, my marriage.

Hi Dino! How is the training going? Have you had a chance to talk with your family again?

I find myself feeling exactly the same way you do about what happened with your wife right before you left. I know it is a big breakthrough. It's huge really. She made herself vulnerable to you again and shared her true feelings with you. If nothing else, it says there is hope that your marriage can be saved. I can also understand not wanting to get your hopes up too high because that can inadvertently put too much pressure on the situation and cause disappointment when things don't quite meet expectations. So I guess I would encourage you to enjoy the renewed closeness ... it's wonderful news to me ... but try not to develop expectations ... that way you can enjoy even the smallest victories.

For me, I never had a single defining moment where I felt like my marriage "turned a corner" or anything like that. Sometimes we would have breakthroughs where I felt like one of us finally got something about the other person. For us anyway, there wasn't just one thing that needed to be fixed, so it has been more of a gradual improvement. I think the pattern that fits best is "two steps forward, one step back" because we are definitely getting better, but we also have days where we backslide a little ... old habits being so hard to break A big thing for me to learn has been to not overreact when my husband is not perfect and backslides a little. Cutting him some slack is what will get me to the long-term goal of having a happy marriage even though criticizing him might give me some short term satisfaction ... LOL!

I wouldn't worry about your wife not actively committing to working on the marriage or doing any of the things you're doing. My husband has barely read any of the things on this website. He did do the emotional needs questionnaire with me, but that's about it. He actually laughed out loud when I said we should spend 15 hours a week together and felt that was too much time! So even though he wasn't actively looking to change, I think he had to change when I started changing how I related to him. Or maybe it wasn't even that he changed ... I do think he has always wanted to be a good husband to me ... but maybe what it is, is that I learned how to communicate better what I wanted and to listen to what he wanted. I tell you, I am in shock today because he fixed the toilet in my bathroom without me even asking! A year ago, I would have had to call a plumber or my dad if I wanted it to ever get fixed. So without him even trying in the sense of reading books or getting counseling or even saying to me that he was going to change, our marriage has somehow gotten going in the right direction.

Snuggle
I'm lucky enough to be able to talk to wife and kids everyday so that's a good thing. It's been hard being away from them, even the wife, I just have this overwhelming feeling that I need to be around her. I'm not sure if that's so healthy for me but what can I do.

Thank's for giving me the pep talk after reading my post. I was really happy about what happened. It felt good. I hope you're right about inner changes being bigger than what she's showing outwardly. I am having to keep myself from getting to worked up about it though. I want to be normal and happy again so bad. I hate having to think about this thing everyday, it's draining.

Today was one of those bad days. Nothing happened but I just started thinking too much, you know? Worrying about the future and worrying about how she feels about me and worrying that she isn't being honest about what she wants, you know, the usual self-defeating thoughts. I have yet to find a fool-proof way of shutting those down when they start. What always seems to worry me the most is that there isn't a single problem that I can put my finger on that has been the cause of our marriage breakdown. When I look back honestly, I can say that I just wasn't the loving supporting husband I should have been. Her A was just a symptom of our sickness [she screwed up, that's for sure], but in the big picture it's the least of my worries. Because of all this, I always get overcome by feelings of failure and feelings that I've done to much damage and that she's just waiting for the right time. Like I said, today is just a bad day, but when I have them, it's always the same thoughts. I just want them to go away.

How did you cope when your brain started being "uncooperative"? What did you do to get through those yucky days? That's what my assignment from the psychologist is supposed to be, writing down how I diverted my depressing thoughts. So far I haven't nailed anything down. I have to go see her on the 5th. Today was the first "real bad" day I've had so I guess that's a good thing. Anyway, just thought I'd pick your brain.

Thanks Snug

Hmmmm, Dino ... I think the training you are getting must be too easy for you if you're having so much time to think!!

It takes a lot of practice to control our brains, doesn't it. Have you ever tried meditation? I have never been very successful at getting my mind to be quiet without falling asleep! I only try it every once in awhile. I think if I would stick to it and really practice, I'd have a lot more control over my mind, but I've just never been able to muster the self disciple. Maybe with your military background, you would be more successful than me !

The thing that has worked best for me is just getting super rational and analyzing from a problem solving point of view. A lot of my worrying is over things I can't control, like bad weather or other people's actions and opinions or especially the past, and I have to remind myself that no amount of worrying is going to change these externals, so just cut it out and get focused on things I can change. If there are things in my control, I find it does help me to feel more positive if I just get in action on those things. Sometimes there isn't anything to do, so then I just keep reminding myself that worrying does no good and really just thinking about the absurdity of expecting the world to care that I am so worried usually gives me a little internal laugh that helps snap me out of it.

What kind of hobbies do you enjoy? It is a bit escapist, but when I am feeling bad, that is basically what I need. So I might read, do crossword puzzles, watch TV, work on a craft, bake cookies, stuff like that. Basically mental comfort food. Things that take me back to better times or times when I was a kid amusing myself at home.

If I can't settle down to do something comforting then I will write. I do have a journal (which I sadly neglect when life is good ... if you read it for the past few years you'd think I was the most miserable person ever!) so I'll pull it out and just pour out my thoughts and feelings. When I write, it does help me clarify things or work stuff out if my thoughts are jumbled.

I hear a little bit of my husband when you say that you feel like you failed. One of the problems we had was that I had a hard time telling him when my needs weren't being met because instead of hearing me saying "I would like you to do X or be more Y with me" he heard it as "You are failing me" and would become either defensive or mopey. I wasn't saying it to make him feel bad, I just wanted him to change some of his behavior. Granted sometimes I could have found better ways to phrase it, but he also could have given me the benefit of the doubt and been less ready to hear it as all about him and been more concerned about me. It was so frustrating! So don't be like that!! That's not what your wife wants. I bet she wants to be normal and happy again as much as you do actually.

Snuggle
Thanks again, the dumb thing is, I know what I need to do but some days it's like I turn stupid and get myself all worked up about stuff. Did you ever think that maybe we let ourselves do that just to get it out, you know, just cry on our own to release some of the frustration? It's hard work putting on the happy face all the time, while inside I'm still torn. Don't get me wrong, I'm very happy with progress so far, but there's still that part of me that is devastated that my once happy marriage has become the source of pain instead of the safe haven.

About my training, you are very intuitive! It really has been easy and they are giving us alot of free time. I've been using the time to work out and do my college work. So it's not been all bad, yesterday was just one of those days. Thankfully those days seem to be getting farther apart.

I keep a journal of my own also, started it as soon as she dropped the bomb on me 4 months ago. Mine also reads like a psycho basketcase. I actually brought it with me but I haven't written in it since I've been here. I usually wait for something significant but lately I've just neglected it altogether.

It sounds like your husband and I have alot in common. I never ever wanted to do anything to hurt my wife. I love her as much today as the first day I realized I loved her in the first place. In hindsight, communication is what killed our marriage. We both say that we were telling each other what we wanted, but we were sending each oter the same vague messages everytime we had an arguement. Everything was text book. She shut herself down and held everything inside, I would get moody and mopey because I percieved it as her losing respect for me and not having that deep love for me. Instead of doing real things to get on the right track, we just kept getting farther and farther apart. We are both hardheaded people and we took the requests as criticism and pushed back instead of changing our outlook. We both wanted the same things with the same goal in mind, but we just didn't do the right things. How stupid could I have been not to see those things before, when now they seem so crystal clear and easy to understand for me! Don't worry Snug, I'll never be like that again, my constant worry is that maybe I'm too late. I know, I can't do anything but show her the new me and hope she realizes that real change can happen.

I have to work on that mind control thing. If I could just get that in check I could be better for me and her. I think I might look into some meditation techniques.

Thanks again

Hey Dino! I hope it's been another successful day of training down for you.

I'm glad to hear that it was just one bad day. You sound good today. I think we all have tough days that are hard to shake. It's not dumb, just being human. Probably just being emotionally tired which is understandable with all that has happened.

You will have to let me know if you do give meditation a try! Maybe I will give it another try myself. My friend recently gave me a funny book about meditating with your dog. Now that my dog is older, I think he's finally mellowed out enough that it could work ... LOL!

Hey Snuggle
Training has been good the last couple of days. It's harder to stay awake during class than anything else, not much has changed since highschool years in that respect.

Got another subject to get your opinion on. I know we talked about the meditation thing but I haven't pursued anything for that yet. Something concerns me a little, because, with all the ways I've been trying to get in the right frame of mind and keep myself from being depressed about things, the one way that works sometimes also seems like a very negative way of dealing with it. Anyway, once in awhile when I start to get those depressed feelings, I make myself angry by telling myself that I should just forget about her or that she's an idiot for acting the way she is. Sometimes I hurl some mental expletives her way. I don't know, it all seems a little childish but I never lash out at her...ever. It makes me feel better at times, but then I wonder if what I'm saying is more true than how I think I feel? I mean, I really feel that we have a real shot at recovering our marriage and I want that more than anything, but why does it make me feel good to think and internalize all the negative stuff? Just something I wonder about, you know?

The past couple of days have been fairly good. We talk everyday and she's been pretty cordial. She says she loves me when we hang up. I still have alot of work to do in not assigning meaning to the little things I "percieve" in our interactions. You know what I mean, "she sounds like she's forcing herself to say I love you", "why does she address me by my name in emails and on the phone instead of calling me babe?", "why doesn't she sound more enthusiastic when she gets on the phone?", stuff like that. I really think that's the hardest thing for me to endure. I hate that she treats me more like an aquaintance than her husband. Anyway, I'm starting to rant.

I hope you weekend was good. I'll be heading back to England thursday. I should post a couple more times before I leave.

thanks again

Hope you don't mind if I jump in for a moment... I just wanted to say that I really liked this post.

The pain of causing a huge rend in your marriage can feel tremendous at times. 2+ years and 22 thread pages later and I find myself feeling it at some point throughout every day. Sometimes a twinge or a sting, other times it can be a momentarily crushing weight. I'm told that self acceptance and forgiving oneself goes a long way toward helping the healing process... might help that mask become a permanent fixture and not so much a mask anymore. Those things are something that I've been working diligently toward, but am still having a hard time with. Seems my hang up is that I've been unable to find a way to completely stop making my feelings contingent on how my relationship with WW is going. She DJ's me, and I DJ myself. I'm sure there's a reason for that I haven't found yet, but that's what time is for.

I never wanted to hurt my family, or myself, but my downward sliding perspective led me to that. Long story, but it leads to a similar scenario, as do alot of stories... we lose track, change our focus, or start stockpiling our doubts and uncertainties and next thing you know you start seeing the fantasy you've created for yourself as the reality... I can only hope that more people end up here, or somewhere similar, armed ready with a deisre to make a fighting comeback.

If you figure that whole mind control thing out, I'd be interested in knowing how you did it. It's crazy how you can be standing there saying and doing things that feel right and good, then the next minute you aren't anymore... and at the time it still feels right... but when it's all done you have to ask yourself "What just happened?". When the poop finally hit the fan in my life, when I came to that screeching halt and saw just what I had wrought in my life... what a day. I've never been so afraid in my life. Over the last two years or so, there have been alot things that I can say "I've never been so..." about. Here I am though, living and learning... and I'm alot less afraid of... well, just about anything really. I take alot more chances, and do so much more for myself these days... and everything looks so much more clearer for me. I feel alive, and not just living now. Though... I still feel that sting, those twinges... and sometimes that crushing weight... and know that I'm still holding myself back from really knowing what it's like to be free. I'll get there in time... whether it's sooner or later. It's all good.

Inferno
Thanks for the post. I get scared just about everyday, some more than most, but everyday. I don't want it to go away. To me it tells me that there is something out there that I want to fight for. It tells me that there is something I value, more than things, more than money, more than a quick road to happiness. Something that will have meaning if I succeed. Something that will last a lifetime for us and our family. This fight is about more than me and my happiness, it's about living up to a promise I made 18 yrs ago. I ache thinking about the way I failed to protect and love the person I made that promise to.

Either way this whole thing ends up, I need her to know that I tried my best, that I really am the man she fell in love with, not the stranger she came to live with. Not the man who put her through those few years of pain and sorrow. I'm still the man she looked at and fell in love with, the man she decided to call family and start her own with. When I am at the point that I can look at myself and call me that man once again, I believe I can watch her walk away if that is her choice. I will be saddened, not because of what I have done, but because of the choice she made and she will have to carry that burden, alone.

I know exactly what you mean about attaching your feelings to how the relationship is going. Right now we're just kind of coasting. I can make a case for me feeling either way right now. Why do I do it though? Why do we do it? No matter what anyone says to me, I believe it's because they are part of us. We aren't separate entities, when we made the promise we became one. We got to this point because we let ourselves believe we were "separate"! I would never treat myself the way I treated her before and had I treated us as one, we wouldn't be here now. I could cut myself loose, darken my heart, paint her with the dark colors of hate and walk away. But I'm not going to do that, she deserves more, I deserve more and my kids deserve more. I will find a way to deal with this, time is the key as you said. Again I say, I hope it's not too late.

Thanks again

Snuggle
Back from training. Good to be home, I really missed the family. Not much to speak of though, glad I didn't get myself all worked up about the happenings of the night before I left. Things are just as I left, positive but still the same. Had a bad night sunday night, got myself pretty upset but I was alone so no damage. I'm doing good not to have expectations but it hurts real bad you know? She talks alot about the future as if we're going to be together but she doesn't show much physical affection at all. I'm just so starved for her touch right now it's almost unbearable. I'm not talking about sex either (none for 4 months), just a warm hug and a real look of love. When she picked me up saturday, I didn't get a hug, I got to kiss her forehead. That stings. Everyday I see her, I smell her, I talk with her but I don't get to touch, I'm withering away inside. I'm still on my plan with no desire to change, but I wonder how I will manage. I sometimes question my will power. Can I do it? Will I last? I plan to, but what will be left of me? I can honestly say I'm getting better as a person but where will it leave me? I know all the text book answers, life will go on and blah, blah, blah. I love her, she's part of me, nobody can tell me different. I guess I can be positive and say that I am fortunately enough to have felt love that would leave me in this sort of state. Man it hurts though. Why do us humans wait to learn lessons the hard way, why are we so eager to want more. Why do we put ourselves though hell to get to heaven when we were there all along, just blind to it.

Anyway, I have another appt tomorrow with the doctor. I'll be interested to see how it goes. I just need some good sleep.

Try to stay strong my friend. My WW isn't even talking like we have a future. Keep your eye on the fact that yours is talking positive about it. Whats left of us in the end who knows. I wonder that myself if I'll resemble anything of what I use to (positive things that is) and what I'll be like. Just have to be your (good)self. If we don't end up lasting then does that tell us something? We're both starved for the touch. It hurts bad but it's a frame of mind thing and hard to get to that frame where you don't crave. I'm starting to get there though and I have no idea whether it will hurt or help.

You know, I guess that is the common theme in everything here. Trying to come to grips with all the things we took for granted in our previous years with the person we claim to love. I, for one, can say with a clean soul that I love my wife with every fiber of my being. I was one who selfishly created a world in which my "taker" had wrought destruction on everything that was once wholesome and pure. There was the weaker "giver" inside me witnessing the fall of our once cherished love and standing there doing nothing to stop it. I saw the pain in her eyes for awhile, then she built her wall.

Pride, the deadliest of sins, was my personal favorite. Nothing would be allowed that affected my pride, nothing. Not her feelings, not our friendship, not our love. Pride has brought down nations, countries, civilizations. It also brought down my marriage. If I had to blame our situation on anything it would be my foolish pride (wasn't that in a song?). Don't get me wrong, pride can be good, I teach it to my kids everyday. As with all things, it must be taken in moderation. I was sick with it. To question my manhood was to ask for a death sentence.

I loved her, as much then as I do now, I assumed that she could weather my horrible storm. That after all my thunder and lightning, the clouds would clear and she'd be standing there waiting for me as she always did. This time all I saw was the barren ruins of a once plush landscape. Rubble and remnants of a relationship torn from it's foundation. Torn from the healthy soil that it once grew green and beautiful from. I can still see what I think is a foundation, can she still see it? I can only hope.

I stood there, unbelieving, seeing with a clarity I once thought impossible. Seeing the person I cared for, as a stranger I had made in the image of my love. I thought I knew her but I knew her as she was, not as who I had turned her into. Yes I said it, what I turned her into. She was/is beautiful. She stuns me with her beauty to this day. A beauty that mesmerized me then, mesmerizes me today. I am longer no priveledged to witness such beauty from close up, I can only admire from a distance. I can see it from where I am with such vivid detail, details that escaped me in the past. Details that I long to touch, to feel once more. I want to feel the cool tenderness of her touch once again. Can she see the foundation still?

I am not a spiritual person. But I beg for help from a higher being. Not to do my work for me, but to allow me the chance to work for myself. For another chance to do work, worthy of my love's admiration. Worthy of the chance to once again be brought into her warm and tender embrace. To show her what a fool I was to neglect our wonderful garden. I've always had the tools to cultivate our relationship, they sat, unused for so long. They feel cumbersome and unfamiliar in my hands now, but at the same time, they feel so good. They fit me, as if they were made just for me, for us, and our garden.

For now I will work, and build, and sweat. I'll work enough for two. I'll make up for the lost time, time of selfish endulgence. Without the knowledge of what will come, but with the hope of what can be, what once was. Not to recreate, but to reinvigorate. To start a fresh new life, with new hopes and new dreams. A new life with my love.

Can we get there with all of our broken and damaged souls? I don't know. But we have been stripped, to the core. There is nothing left to hide behind, nothing to tear down. We are naked once again, bare to each other. I could hide behind the flimsy excuses of past failure but why? Why would she? Can she still see me from where she is? Can she see the naked me? The me asking for forgiveness of sins unforgivable. I can only hope.

Wow my friend, if I could of thought of those words I could have wrote them also.

I see your sting is as deep as mine if not deeper. I'm much weaker right now though.

Stay strong my friend, keep your eye on the goal. Mine might be lost forever now.

Snuggle where are you? I need a shoulder bad! Had somewhat of a blowout tonight, nothing awful bad though, I didn't LB terribly. I'm actually kind of proud of myself. I still feel like s*%t but better than I would've felt before finding MB. WW is still in some thick fog, I was hoping not, but wow, she is in there deep. I wrote her another letter as I usually do. Since I've been having some notions, I mentioned about the NC with OM and how I felt about it.

When I came to bed, she said she had read my note, I asked her about contact. She was honest and told me about it, she even told me she says "I love you" sometimes still ( I asked, what a dummy). WTF? Of course the river began to flow about how all the text book things in our marriage were wrong, do I need to recount the list? I'm not being condescending because of alot of it is true, I wasn't as good as I should've been. But not near as bad as she makes it out to be. She just can't let go of the past, not right now, maybe never but that remains to be seen.

I finally stood up strong. Will it make a difference? Who knows? I finally told her flat out no contact, she couldn't answer me. I asked her point blank, is her supposed concern for his welfare and his friendship worth more than whatever chance we had at our marriage? She couldn't answer me. Jeez, she could get in alot of trouble, more than she already has! I don't even know if I got through to her. She says she knows she's doing wrong, says she struggles with it everyday. Says she knows she could get in trouble, says she knows it's disrespectful to me, says I just don't understand that she can't change her feelings over night. She says she just can't find the right path yet, I told her to just stop, she went off on me about how can I be so righteous now. I was good, I was pretty calm, no DJs and kept reminding her of that. She just can't let go, she's still angry about her situation. We're at square one again.

She finally said she wouldn't talk to him anymore, I don't believe, but she said it wasn't because of our marriage, she said she'd quit talking to him because it's the "right" thing to do. Said she'd stop so that they don't get into trouble. I don't know what to do Snug. I'm lost again. I thought I was onto something but I'm still out there. Actually, I do think I'm in the right vicinity hopefully.

I told her if she thought it was more important for her to continue contact with him than to respect me and whatever small chance we had, she should just go with a divorce. She couldn't say anything. I asked her Snuggle, "is contacting him more important than our having a chance at saving this marriage?" she couldn't answer me Snuggle, in a way I think it's a good thing but then again, is it just the fog? Why is it so hard for them to see? Will she ever see?

At the end of each outburst, she just kept saying "I can't change overnight", I've never been harsh enough to suggest that. The only concrete thing I've ever asked from her is that she stop contacting him. I even told her not to do it for me, do it because she could get into alot of trouble. I asked her to be honest with herself, why take the chance? What can she possibly be getting from it? She says she's concerned about him possibly going to jail! I asked her again, point blank, what's more important, the possibility of him going to jail or the chance of saving our marriage, she says sarcastically "of course our marriage is more important". How am I supposed to take that? Don't get me wrong, I understand where it comes from. She's still in serious withdrawal and she even says she can't shake those feelings overnight, I told her I understood. I asked her what he was giving her from across a continent that would justify jeopardizing an already tenuous career? She couldn't tell me! I hope for her sake, she stops, just for her own personal safety. What is she supposed to tell the kids if she ends up in jail for cripes sake? I honestly don't want her to have to go through anymore pain on the legal aspect of this whole rotten thing. I told her that. She just doesn't see me as me, I'm the monster that ruined everything. I wish you could hear her, everything is from then, instead of "what now?".

In some sick way I see this as progress. Progress I thought we had been making was all a sham really. She never really moved anywhere. She says her feelings toward the marriage and me have no relationship with what she has with the OM, says she'd be the same way if that hadn't happened. I said "really, he had nothing to do with how you all the sudden had this epiphany about our terrible marriage?" even had a small giggle about it. I asked her if she really thought we had more bad times than good, she says "I can only think of recent bad things" I asked again "do you really feel that there is more bad than good in our marriage?" she said no.

One last thing, everytime we get onto the divorce subject, she gets all defensive about what we're supposed to tell everyone. She swears that the "monster" (me), will tell everyone in the family that she screwed around and that she doesn't love me anymore and that everything is her fault. Says "go ahead, tell everyone that, I'll take the blame for all these years I kept this family together. You screwed up first and I saved us, now I'm going to pay the price for everything you did to us because of my one mistake!" Oh, and another favorite of hers, "The only reason you haven't killed me or left is because you know that you screwed up first and now you feel like taking me back is repaying your sins!" I have to be honest, it does make it easier to stomach, but it doesn't change my outlook on anything. I could've hit the ground runnin' and get the heck out of here and been perfectly justified. She knows it, I've told her that. I don't feel any different about what I want us to do for our future. I stressed it to her again, if this marraige is over it'll be because she walked, on her own.

She says she doesn't think she'll be able to let go of what I did in the past. Says she proved it tonight by bringing it up over and over again. I don't know what to think. I still I'm in a good plan A. I think. Last thing she said was "ok, I'll do the divorce because you told me to, you made the decision for me" of course she said this because I told her if she couldn't break contact, she should just divorce, if that thing she "thinks" she has is that important to her. I told her two things before I walked out. Since she was laying in bed, I crawled up to her, her eyes were closed. I told her again "you know what I want for our marriage, I love you and I'll never walk away from you" and "if you think our marriage is over, you will be the one to make that decision".

Long night tonight, not much sleep last night, not getting much tonight either. Plus I'm still jet-lagged from being in the states. Sorry for the novel, had a lot to talk about.

Dino,

It's a sad thing when you start to realize that if they really want to walk then we should just let them go. After reading everything you've wrote I truely think your doing the best you can and taking your stand on NC is the best thing you can do for your marriage, you and her.

I'm starting to take a different approach in mine also much like yours. You have to take that stand my friend at some point. It's her choice what she wants to do but realize you are doing the best for your marriage and to work on things and hold your head up. You can't worry about whether she realizes action is needed once and for all. If she doesn't realize that then it is her loss not yours. Your much like me in wanting to give all you can now and that has been and is the right thing to do but if it's not being accepted then at some point it only hurts us more and it only hurts the future of the marriage more if there is any future. At some point there has to be given something back other then crumbs just to keep us alive.

I believe your doing the right thing and I believe I will be also.

You have to emphasize NC, because you will never have your marriage back without it. Don't say divorce any more because they can't think rationally. That's like telling a heroin addict they have to lose their house if they want to keep getting the heroin - they'll take the heroin!

Keep taking the high road; if you feel like going off on her, just close your mouth and don't say anything. Let her. Don't try to rationalize anything except NC at this point; it's pointless.

You may want to print out some of the material that talks about the fog, about rewriting the past to seem so bad, all the stuff waywards do. Highlight those parts and hand it to her. Tell her that you know what she's doing, and you know it's not really her, she's under a spell right now, and you're going to wait until she comes out of it. May not work miracles, but it can't hurt.

I think this would help me also. Where do I find the fog material?

cat

where do I find all the stuff about "fog"? I can't seem to find it anywhere, I'm desperate now. It's like dday all over again. I'm trying to get my head settled down again, plus my session with the doc today didn't do much for me. I can feel the fear creeping in, what is happening?

I think finality can cause you to suddenly realize hard decisions are coming...leading to panic. I'm in the same boat, but about money. I try to make myself step back and see the bigger picture - no one is sick, no one is dead, we have a roof over our heads, that kind of thing. Try to find the positives. Such as even if you divorce, there's no law saying you can't remarry; many people do. In other words, the only true finality is death.

Honestly, I have no idea where to find the fog stuff. If you go over to Infidelity and start a thread there, they'll be able to send you right to it.

I found it, thanks.


And thanks for the support, I'll chalk this up to one of those "steps backward"

Every step backward is a learning experience.

That is the truth. I came home and she was kind of pissy. Says I stress her out, don't give her a chance to "heal". Last night was the first time in 4 weeks a brought up anything to do with out marriage, and just wanted to know about the NC! She likes turns any attempt to talk into a history lesson on our marriage. I should've recognized fog. I asked her about the healing, she says I don't give her a chance to get over anything? What does she need to get over? She had the A! I had mine 5 years ago and I think she's still not forgiven me. Granted, we didn't handle it well back then but I have made many attempts to reconcile it over the last five yrs. She always tells me she's over it, "I don't care about that anymore". At least that what she said post A and pre-dday. Yesterday she finally came clean and said she hasn't forgiven or gotten over anything I've done over the years. WOW, i didn't know what to say. She's still in the fog, i wish I could help her. Cat, I've really been doing a good job with my plan A, I haven't LB'd since starting this 2 months ago. Not long, I know, but I haven't made anything uncomfortable here. Actually, I have made her uncomfortable. She says that my little notes and letters I leave her once in awhile get her stressed out. She says it makes her feel even worse to hear how much I love her and care for her. Makes her feel bad about what she did, she should feel bad, but that's not my intention. I aim to make her feel safe here, let her know that with all thats happened, I'm still here for her and dedicated to our marriage. How does that translate to me stressing her out. She says she doesn't want me to leave them anymore. She says to talk to her if I want to say something. I told her the notes were a way for me to express my feelings without the pressure to respond. She's not taking it like that. Basically, she wants me to leave her alone. But she also wants me to be cheery and alive around the house. I'm not that bad, I have my moments but I'm not moping anymore. I guess I'll start from scratch again. What was the saying? Dumb=doing something that doesn't work, then doing it again to see if it works! Something like that. Anyway, I'll give you updates when they occur.

thanks again cat

Her 'real' self is inside her locked away, sending out little slivers of guilt, while the fog self is controlling her body and mouth. Just patronize her and keep doing what you're doing. Remind me, did you expose the affair?

ya cat

OMW blew the whole thing out in the open. Both are military and got into huge trouble. OM is still pending punishment. WW is "worried" about his well being. Our kids (14/16) know things are amiss but not aware of A.

It's a weird feeling I have, like all the positive stuff I thought I did for myself just disappeared. I need to refocus. Things are no different than yesterday or the day before. All this "worry" is in my head.

Step back and focus on what you DO have in life. You have your health, you have great kids, you have a career, a home, family, live in America (?), no one is dead. Death is the only finality. Anything else can be arranged. Even if you were to split up, even that's not permanent, and could change back once she sees what she lost. Or there could be someone even greater out there waiting for you. Not telling you to dump her, just to realize that this isn't the end of the world. Only death is.

Dino, welcome home! I'm sorry I haven't been around. Long story that has nothing to do with marriage or MB so I won't waste much space posting here -- just am having a major drama at work which I think I have finally figured out is due to the person at the center of said drama having borderline personality disorder. I hope you never meet someone w/ this because I seriously thought I was going insane for awhile as I couldn't figure out why this person was so angry at me and why I seemed to screw everything up in his eyes. But I'm over it. He can bite me. Well ok, maybe I'm still a little pissed ... LOL!

I'm so sorry this has been such a rough week for you too. It sounds like you are handling it pretty well ... not letting her knock you off your Plan A. It's going to take time for her to get her head back on straight. I do understand her when she says she can't change overnight. Her feelings for the OM can't just be turned off. The A started because he met needs for her that you hadn't been, maybe for years. I know you know this and I hope you know too that there's no point in beating yourself up about it. It is what it is. So when she's saying stuff that isn't what you want to hear, isn't encouraging, just remember that it is still a pretty fresh wound, it's going to take time for her to heal. If she was over it now, only a couple months later, I'd actually be a little worried that she might be some kind of sociopath ... I bet a big part of why you love her is that she is a caring person. Overall that is a big plus, but that's also why she's not going to be over it just like that.

I can't remember, did you get the Surviving an Affair book? I haven't read all the infidelity stuff on here, but here is something from Dr. Harley that seems pretty relevant:

"Over time, their resentment will fade, and a passionate desire to make love to their husbands will grow. Both husbands should be patient, and give their wives a chance to overcome the worst of their resentment, before expecting much from them sexually. But a woman in love is usually a great sex partner, and I doubt that either husband will be disappointed if they do their part in meeting their wives emotional needs. I predict that within a year from now, both of these wives will have almost completely recovered from their feelings of resentment." [From Coping With Infidelity: Resentment]

Keep the dialog going ... if she says talk to her, then talk to her! Maybe she wants to be able to respond. Intimacy happens when you share with each other ... 2 way communication.

Anyway, hope you are able to get a better night's sleep tonight. Take good care Dino!

How are things Dino?

Snuggle, so good to hear from you

Things are what they are. I'm doing my best to be patient, deal with the hurt still, support her, take care of the kids, cope with work.

I try to have dialog with her, she's still not ready. If I start any relationship talk it's like pushing the play button on an oral history of all the bad things I've done in our marriage. She keeps saying that she doesn't mean to throw these things in my face everytime but does it everytime. She hasn't progressed any I don't think. She's finally been able to say that she's never gotten over the things I've done in the past. I actually believe she's dredged it all up to justify her actions and feelings today. I'm still doing my plan. Still having a rough time keeping expectations out of my head. Still having a hard time dealing with the indifference she has towards me. Nothing much else to say about that

"husbands should be patient, and give their wives a chance to overcome the worst of their resentment, before expecting much from them sexually. But a woman in love is usually a great sex partner, and I doubt that either husband will be disappointed if they do their part in meeting their wives emotional needs"

I appreciate you sending me these words of encouragement but I'm not even close to thinking about sexual expectations. Snug, I'd be happy if she could give me a genuine hug. I'd be happy if she actually initiated a peck on the lips or looked me in the eyes and said that she loved me. I'd be happy if she called me during the day to say hi or ask how I was doing. She calls once in awhile but it's usually to vent about something with work. I'd be happy if she sounded happy when I called her. I'd be happy if she asked me to come to bed with her. I'd be happy if she held my hand when we walked or even tried to walk next to me. I'd be happy if she didn't do anything but tell me she wanted our marriage to work and that she was trying to make that happen. I'd be happy if she sat next to me watching TV and leaned on my shoulder. I'd be happy if she didn't close the door so I couldn't see her changing.

I'm a stranger in my own house Snuggle. Like a guy she allows to stay with her as a roommate. I'm someone she "puts up with" for now. I may very well be exaggerating but it's sure what I feel like.

I asked her about the night before I left for the states. I asked why she cried on me, why she said she missed me, why she said all those things. She said that was how she felt at the moment. She said she was scared of having to face her legal punishment without me there (her punishment wasn't near as severe as it could've been so we're happy about that). She had said that maybe once she wasn't worried about her punishment she could maybe move ahead and begin to heal some things. I foolishly put some hope into that and have been disappointed once again. Another foolish expectation. If anything, it seems that a burden has been lifted from her and now she can continue to treat me badly since she doesn't need me to lean on anymore. She also told me that while I was gone, she felt no stress, that she was under no pressure. She said that I stressing her out just being home. I do nothing, I say nothing, how do I cause stress? Can the mere sight of me cause so much trouble? How does someone who loved you a year ago now look at you with so much disdain?

She talks about things in the future as if we'll be together. Can a person really plan to be with someone but have no feelings for them? Is she just placating me? She said she made the mistake of staying with me these last few years for the childrens sake, for the family. She says she doesn't want to do that anymore, but why does she continue to talk as if we'll be together but at the same time show no interest in making things any better? I'm so confused.

Things are just things, nothing, no where, no change. I'm hanging in there, trying to put on the smiley face. My kids are doing ok, I talked to them about hearing us talk loudly. Told them their not part of our arguing, told them mom and I have troubles and were working on them. I like to set milestones, maybe not a healthy practice but it's a way of breaking down the time into manageable segments. We're going to Germany for my daughters softball tournament next weekend, hoping that some family time will make an impression, trying not to expect but it's hard. We going to Hawaii in August for her brothers wedding, both sides of the family wil be there, I'm hoping that will have some effect. We leave here in November and that's another milestone I'm looking forward to. She always tells me things like "maybe I'll be better after this, maybe I'll be better after that" She says that finally retiring and gettin away from her job will help, getting out of England may help. But why doesn't she do things to try to make things better instead of waiting around for "something" to make it better? I really think that's part of our reason for getting tho this point!

Anyway, sorry for the novel. Thanks again for not forgetting about me. I'm hanging in there. Not much else for me to do.

take care

LOL, of course she says that; you are the one person to whom she feels guilty. Don't let her lay that on you; that's HER problem.

Does her family know about the A? If not, are you going to tell them?

What have you done to follow Plan A? What have you changed on your end? For you?

cat, what I love about you is your brutal honesty and I wouldn't ask for anything else.

I do understand why she says the things she says. I truly believe she's still in withdrawal, she's even told me that she can't turn off those feelings overnight. But when she says them, they sting is no less.

As far as family goes, none of our family knows anything about my or her A. Actually, she did tell me that she told both our sisters about mine years ago but I don't think she's told anyone about hers. We said that we'd keep it to ourselves for now. If I thought that she was still in the A I would definitely expose but right now it's just us. The OM is in another time zone and we're getting ready to moveback to the states. Other than causing more grief, I just can't see the benefit of exposing to her family, or mine for that matter.

As for plan A, I've changed my total outlook on our life in general. After finding MB, I learned about my LBing ways and how my taker had ruled my part of the marriage. I've learned that the ways I thought I was "manipulating" her into my way of thinking were actually driving her further and further away. I canhonectly say cat, that I haven't dealt out a LB or DJ in the last 4 months. I have kept a cool head through all of this and have made great strides in her seeing that I refuse to resort to yelling at or disrespecting her in any way. I've come to realize that none of those things will ever get us anywhere. I've done my best to show her that I love her unconditionally even through this A. I believe that part of my willingness to accept the A as history is because of my past sin but it isn't easy either way. I have decided in myself that she is more important and that pedestal I had her on was much too high. She is human afterall, she can make mistakes as I know too well. Cat, the only demand I ever placed on her is the NC thing. I think we have that behind us but again, I can only have faith in her, i can only hope that she wouldn't risk an even greater punishment from the military and the possibility that our kids would find out because of it. I don't know, i can only hope. I've been here for her through the punishment without fail, i wrote character letters for her to the judge and stood by her and talked to her boss a professed my unwaivering support. I've taken up all the slack in the house due to her stress and workload (she works up to 16 hours a day and weekends most times) I bring food to her at work, I take care of most of the house work and still manage my college work and workout when I can. She tells me thank you all the time but thats about as far as she goes. She even tells me that I'm wonderful and that people would think she was crazy but she says she just can't get past things right now. I haven't changed because I'm trying to get her back, I've been doing most of it anyway since she was gone for 8 months. I have changed my outlook on the marriage though. I realize how terrible I really was about treating her and not coming close to fulfilling her ENs. I know that it's not fog talking when it come to that. That is something I have to forgive myself for. I don't pretend that her A is my fault, i do blame her for not stressing the importance of things, for not handling things a different way, but it's all past now. I want to start again, i believe she wants to but can't for some reason. I don't fear continuatino of the A, it's logistically impossible. Could they be in contact somehow? maybe,at great risk to them and our families. Time will heal us both but I want to keep the opportunity for us to remain intact. I don't want to do anything rash that would jeopardize that. Will there come a time that extreme measures need to be taken? Could be, but I think I'll recognize that time.

And as for me, I have some work to do on myself. I feel depressed alot. I've been seeing a doctor about it but haven't been prescribed medicine, she's says I'm dealing pretty well. I've been going to IC on my own. I've been doing better to keep a positive demeanor at home but am not always successful, she let's me know that. I realize that the hurt is on both sides. She deals with her pain alot better than I do. I could never handle the pressures she's under right now. I've asked her to talk to anyone but she refuses, even for health reasons. She is losing weight and is having nerve problems. I have been doing alot better though. I work out and have my school work. I think I've been showing her my best, i just think she's afraid. Afraid that things won't change, afraid that if she gives me another chance, I'll go back to my old ways and she'll get hurt again.

How can I get her to see me? How does someone open up again? I have so much to make up for cat, i want to start now!

I think one of the wisest things I've ever read here at MB is that, no matter how much you want something (or someone), if it is not in your control, you have to let go. Hope for it, sure, but let go. Learn how to stop making whether you attain that goal your only measure of success or happiness.

Because if you pin all your hopes on what someone else does, you are doomed to fail. I call it stepping back, or detaching. Pros and cons. List of gratefulness. Whatever. It's all about realigning your mind to see the bigger picture. You're alive. You're healthy. You didn't just lose everything - and everyone - in an earthquake or tsunami. You have enough food to eat, a job, a home, a car, a pet?, family members who love you, a God who's looking after you...what else can you come up with?

This is why I recommend volunteering to everyone. Everyone. Even if you've only got 2 hours a month, one Saturday afternoon a month, whatever, that one little piece of helping make someone else's life a little better is HUGE. In terms of how you feel about yourself and your problems.

Once you reach the point where you can say, 'man, I really want her to love me again, but you know what? I'll survive if she doesn't.' - that's where you can start making the right decisions for you and for winning her back. Get out of the desperation mode, where every action you take is bent on getting her to want you again. Because that way leads to madness.

You're doing really good, though. Keep it up. I would caution, however, to reconsider all you're doing for her. She is obviously filled with guilt and self-hatred. When the partner goes overboard on trying to be nice to that person who is hating herself for what she did (and subconsciously she most likely is), it only makes her hate herself more. She doesn't deserve for you to be so nice to her, you know? And that can cause them to leave or self-destruct just to get out of the guilt situation. So be careful that you're not doing more than you normally would in your relationship.

I agree with Cat. Yesterday I reached that point and no matter what happens from here, I have given it my all and I will survive this and I'll be able to be strong for DS too. Prior to this I was in full desperation mode. I did everything 150% to change things, to improve ME, but in the end H still admits to only giving me 50% effort towards recovery and still thinks constantly of OW. It's been 5 months of effort with me busting my a$$ but in the end it takes more than one to repair damage to a M and until he can choose which woman he wants in his life..I must go on for me.
This is a feeling of freedom. I recommend it to anyone! Until now I felt I was losing my mind but now it's in his ballpark if he wants our M to work it's up to him now.

Hey Dino! Keep hanging in there!! I know it is frustrating not to see things turning around more quickly now that the light switch has gone on for you but not your wife, but don't let your frustration get the best of you.

It sounds like you are continuing to do a lot of good things. I think there's probably a pack of women on this board who's husbands don't lift a finger who'd be drooling over you ... so if worse comes to worse ... LOL! Question though, what are YOUR wife's top emotional needs? You've got the domestic support one covered and I would guess you must be in good shape if you're in the Army so physical attractiveness shouldn't be an issue (unless you dress funny ... hee, hee!). But maybe other areas are more important to her?

If relationship talk is leading to her feeling stressed and dredging up bad memories, don't bring it up for now. Concentrate on meeting her top emotional needs only!! When she's ready to talk about it, if she needs to talk about it, she'll bring it up. Talking about it isn't going to heal it. You know you hurt her back then so unless there is some critical information you still need, I don't see how it can be productive to dialog about it. Dialog about your present and your future, not the past. Honestly, I don't like to talk about "us" that much with my husband. What I do appreciate is being able to talk to him about what is going on in other areas of my life in a much more honest way than I feel safe doing with other people. Or talking about plans for a trip or a party. Or just commenting on how dumb our local politicians are.

I almost want to suggest that you act from the assumption that you will be happy together in the future, once you get past this episode. You might be stirring up her doubts by trying to get reassurance from her that she forgives you or is feeling better. When she says "maybe I'll be better after ..." how do you respond?

You're probably right that setting milestones for this situation might not be the best method to get where you want to go. In a way, you're falling into the same trap you're worried your wife is in of thinking things will be better after X happens. So in your next post, tell me what's beautiful in your life and stay there ... meditate on it if you will I'm waiting for you to master that so you can help me with some tips!!

I'm working on that cat,

I think I've finally reached the point that I can say that I'll be ok if we part. I've said that to her already. I couldn't say that 4 months ago, not even lying. And I think about the things I do for her and try to gauge whether I'd be doing them if we start to get better and the answer right now is YES. I finally feel like I can say that I feel good about what I'm doing. Not that I didn't do things before, I did things because I felt forced. Now I actually enjoy doing these things, I enjoy them because I see how much of a difference they make, because I make her feel good.

I don't think I'm putting too much pressure on her, not doing more than she's done for me in the past. I think about those things alot. Most of what I do is to finally give her some support, not my strongest suit in the past. Now she needs it more than ever, I just make sure that she doesn't have to deal with anything on the homefront so she can concentrate on dealing with the job and stress of upcoming retirement. I made a promise to myself that whatever I'm doing now, I'll continue from now on. If we beging to repair our relationship, I don't want her to have a single doubt about me returning to my old ways.

You know, talking with you guys really makes me feel good because the things you advise me to do, I've thought of myself at one time or another. Kind of reinforces that fact that I may be on the right track.

With that said, it doesn't make anything hurt any less, I guess it makes it easier to deal with though. I'm so much better than I was. I love her so much, I wish I had learned some of these things earlier, could have prevented alot of pain.

Thanks again cat, I'll keep posting

Funny you mention that, I was just looking at the emotional needs checklist and trying to figure hers out from all the things she's told me in the past. She isn't willing to look at the checklist yet, another one of those things I won't press.

She wants me to be her friend, support her with career and family and anything else. Openness and Honesty is another one of her tops. She says that is one of the things that really hurt us, because of may lack of support and her feeling like she couldn't depend on me as a friend, she couldn't be open and honest with me and because my lack of enthusiasm for what she had to say , it made her shut down. Obviously affection and sexual fulfillment aren't on the scope at the moment so those are on the backburner. Domestic support was another that I've mastered. Admiration is one that I think is on her list. She seems to mention alot about when her people or leadership praise her about her work, I was not so good at that in the past, I defintely make sure I have good things to say about those things now. Snug, I think I'm doing well with meeting the ENs she allows me to for the time being. In our situation, its kinda tough for me to fill needs that I'm shut out of.

As far as relationship talk goes, I avoid it at all costs, right now anyway. The talks we have had always grown out of my enquiring about something else and were not productive. Until she approaches me to have some serious talk about it, and she can talk without looking back, I don't think that will be a topic of any of our conversations. I just don't want all of this to fade away and leave us with unresolved issues that will blow up the next time we have a disagreement. That's my biggest concern. We seem to talk and laugh pretty freely. I'm pretty happy about that.

I know what you say about the milestone thing, I try not to put much stock into those since I've already been disappointed. I think I use it more to break up the time, more to just say "ok, we made it another month". I think she may rely on these "events" to assume she will get better. When she says these things, I don't say anything about it. I just keep reassuring her that everything will be ok. I tell her we'll get through it. I wish she'd ask for help but she's being stubborn. I'm trying to keep a positive spin on my outlook for things. It's hard to look ahead and see positive things when the present hurts so much. I really believe that she's planning the future with me. I like to believe that I know her well enough to make that assumption, but with all that's happened, I can't help but feel a little hesitant to "trust" my feelings about her. I wish I could just hang myself out there but this thing hurt too much, I have to provide a little protection for myself but at the same time, I need to have faith. Faith that she will do the right thing.

After finding out about the A and learning of all the dirty dishonest things that she did and said to me, I've lost some respect and trust in her. That in itself is a blow to me, it disappoints me to no end. I've always believed that I could trust her about anything, she's only human I found out. So I can't help but feel these stings of mistrust when I think about things. I mean, she did this terrible thing, what else is she really capable of? Could she really live with me for the rest of the year coasting along and suddenly run out the door when the time is right for her, all the while smiling and just keeping the peace until that time comes? Those are the kinds of terrible thoughts I battle with sometime. They don't consume me, but they cross my mind from time to time. Another one of my hurdles is the NC thing, the last time we had a drag out it was the topic that started it all. She says she won't contact him anymore but the doubts still dig at me, I would've never guessed that she would risk the amount of trouble she'd get into if she got caught but she did. Somehow the importance of talking with him outweighed the concern for her own safety and the safety of our family. She said she struggled with that everyday but could not stop it. He was the one whose mistakes caused all the trouble in the first place and essentially cost her, her career. Even with that, she felt it necessary to be concerned with his welfare enough to risk further harm to herself and our family. That is something that hurts to my core and I won't get over soon. I have to say though, if this dumba%$ hadn't screwed up with letting his wife find out, who knows if my wife would've ever come clean with this and we could be very well on a much worse place than we are now. For that, I am thankful, even thought it's kind of a sick way to look at it.

I'm doing better though Snug, alot better, no doubt from the help and encouragement I get from you and cat. I've been meaning to write down all the good things in my life right now, so I can actually visualize them on paper, so with your request, I'll put that on my next post.

thanks again

Dino

Thank you so much. I really need to model the things your doing and I'm going to try to focus on your posts while focusing on my WAW top needs at this time and do my best. Your a good role model for me right now and I hope I can mimic the good things I'm reading.

Thanks again.

So glad to hear you are feeling better and looking forward to reading your list Dino

I think I know exactly how your wife feels about wanting you to be a friend. I've said the very same thing to my husband. He's a pretty typical guy so maybe it has to do with the way most guys think about friendship. I notice that when he and his guy friends talk, it's pretty much about sports, movies, something dumb they've seen on youtube, or retelling some story from a past adventure, interspersed with a lot of trash talk and ribbing. Ok, sometimes they have serious talks if one is asking the other for advice on how to do something. And occasionally there will be some meaning of life talk. What he doesn't do with his friends and thus doesn't do well with me, is talk like me and my friends talk ... which is more about sharing what is going on in our lives and supporting each other. Once, I was sharing something about work and I actually saw his eyes sort of roll up out of boredom! OMG, I was *SO* mad. He knows this is a need for me and I can see him trying ... like he now makes an effort to ask me about my day or what's going on, but it still feels like he's just checking a box. I can't even really explain why, but even though I know he is asking me to give me an opportunity to talk to him and open up to him, I don't really share as much as I could. I'm not purposely holding back, but it just doesn't flow out. Maybe because I don't believe he's really truly interested. I know he's interested in being a good husband to me, but I just wish he was interested in what I actually have to say. Obviously this isn't a horrible tragedy of a problem and I do realize it's not a big deal in comparison, but if I could have that girlfriend-like support from him it would take our marriage to the next level. What do you think? Anything like you and your wife? Is it possible to change? Or should I just get used to it?

ez, do you have a thread going? Why don't you post a list too?

Snuggle yes I do: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2057320

Dino's helped me with a lot of good words of encouragement and whereas the only real thing I can offer him is to stay strong and he's doing that the best he can I believe.

Snuggle

You know, I know exactly what she means about being a friend and I'm trying my best. She will be the only one to know if I'm doing it how she likes it. She's always been the type to have more male friends anyway, she thinks girls have too much drama. To tell you the truth, I'm still a little fuzzy about what eaxctly she needs from me as a friend. Basically I just want her to know that she can talk to me about anything without feeling judged and that I'm interested and that I'll support her with anything. That's all I can do really. I will ask her one day, when she's ready to talk, how exactly this guy fulfilled that need of a friend. I've always told her that guys will be the best friends in the world, especially to a good lookin woman, they'll bend over backward and tell you anything you want to hear. Most will stay in that zone as long as you keep the door shut, if you crack that door just a little bit, they will barge right in, and that's what happened to her.

Anyway, I almost got off track. As for your hubby, give him a chance. If he is anything like me, just asking you about your day and listening is a big step. He dang sure shouldn't be rolling his eyes but he is trying. If he's like me and he begins to see just how much it means to you, he'll get even better. Try telling him something that's really private to you, tell him noone but he knows, see how he reacts. Tell him you told him because you're starting to feel like you can do that again, he'll feel really good, i think. I know I would. You know Snug, I would do anything to be in that type of a relationship with my wife again, that's what I'm striving for. Whenever she gets happy or sad or mad, I want to be the first person she thinks about calling. I'm starting to tear up as I'm writing this because I want it so much. I miss being her friend, I miss her being mine. Men can change, they will never think like a girlfriend, but it doesn't mean they don't care as much as one. Guys still have that macho thing to deal with you know. I miss my wife Snuggle, I miss her so much. I'm getting pretty emotional right now so I better stop. I'll post my "good stuff" list later today.

Snuggle

So my list of positives:

First and foremost, my kids love me
we're all healthy
our families at home are healthy
we're all still together
we're going back to the states in 6 months
we're going to Hawaii in August, together (can't wait)
her retirement will be good for her
I'm a much better person that I was 5 months ago
I'm an awesome dad
my school work is going well
I'm in better shape (running more)
she hugs me
she kissed me good bye this morning (cheek)
we actually talk
we play tennis
we spent saturday together and had lunch (before she got called to work)
she's been touching me when we go to bed
we talk of the future, together
I'm not depressed as much
I'm treating her better
she's treating me better
the kids are happy
my job is good
softball is starting
going to Germany next weekend for daughters softball tourney (the whole family)

There's much more though, I know. I hate to feel so glum sometimes. I know things aren't as bad as I make them out to be, but there is still something missing. When you've spent this many years together, even when things aren't going perfect, you still share your joys and pains. I think we're headed in the right direction, I think. But right now, when I get excited about something, or I get sad about something, I have noone to turn to. I was so lonely while she was gone for 8 months, then she came home and this happened. This month will be a year ago when she left for her deployment, the last time I saw her before she left was in germany at the same tourney we're going to next week, she left to the desert from germany and me and the kids came home. So even though all this stuff is only really a little over 5 months old, I've been lonely for a year.

I concentrated on the kids while she was gone to stay busy, but at bed time I would get so lonely. It's still the same now and she's home. Not so bad these last few days, I'm grateful. I hope I'm not bringing you down, I'm just thinking out loud. Wife is upsatirs sleeping because she went to work at 0300 this morning and didn't get home till about 5 this afternoon. It's about 9:45 at night and I'm going to lay down on the couch, I don't want to disturb her sleep, I know the last 5 days have been hell on her. I have a lot to be thankful for Snuggle.

I'll be ok without my wife, I know that, but I don't want to be ok with it, not until she gone and doesn't come back. I'm in a good place right now, I'm trying to take notes to remember how to keep my mind in the same frame. Time heals everything, bad thoughts still come but further apart and not so intense. I still haven't got that meditation thing down, I'm still trying though. Wouldn't it be nice to never have a bad thought again, to never be hurt again? You could probably make yourself like that if you wanted to, but you'd never love anyone again. You can't love someone and not get hurt, it happens, maybe not purposely, but we're all human and we make mistakes. But we can also forgive, them and ourselves.

Wow, when I get on a roll I can keep going. If I knew how to type better you guys would be in trouble. Anyway, theres my list. It's a good list. Theres alot of positve things in my life and I need to concentrate on them, I know. But there is still something missing. I just need to get better at handling that and I am. We'll see how the next week goes, this one has been pretty dang good so far.

ciao

Last night was a good night
After laying on the couch awhile, I went up to bed. Wife was still sleeping. I was woken by her when she climbed over to lay her head on my chest. She was actually touching me with her hands and hugging and squeezing me. She had the alarm set for 0230, when it went off, she got up, got half dressed and layed back down with me, on my chest again. When she got up to finally go downstairs, she gave me a kiss on the cheek and she pinched me. Pinching is one of those "things" we have. You know, the little sign, one of our "you're so cute" signals. I'm so happy right now, what a good way to start the day. I just figured I'd share this since I've been on the positive subject the last couple of posts.

ciao

That's so great Dino! That says to me that she still loves you for sure. Wonderful list as well. You have so much to be thankful for, lucky you

I am unsure about one thing you said though. You said that you can't love someone and not get hurt. That if you could get to the point where you didn't have bad thoughts/couldn't be hurt again, that you wouldn't ever love anyone. My feeling is that hurt and anger aren't a part of love, but of our own egos. The hurt we feel comes from what we think the other person's actions or words say about us (i.e. you're not good enough, you're a fool, you're unlovable). Therefore the opposite would be true, if you could get rid of your bad thoughts, you'd be able to love at a deeper level because you wouldn't be blocked by the self-centeredness that results in angry feelings. Do you think you might be confusing mastering bad feelings with becoming a robot?

Anyway, I will try to break through my hesitancy and share more with my husband. I'll have to think of something that would fit the bill. I do give him a lot of credit for trying and I wish that would be all it takes to get me feeling close, but maybe I just need to fake it 'til I make it ...LOL!

Snuggle
I know what you're saying about the love/hurt thing. I guess what I'm trying to say is, when someone that you love makes a mistake, it hurts sometimes. You are right though, much of our hurt is the result of what we "attach" to the mistake. Now that I think about it, if you really know that something wasn't said or done out of malice, it really shouldn't hurt so bad. But then again, you can't help but think that a loved one wouldn't do certain things, they are supposed to protect you right? Basically what I'm saying is, to totally protect yourself from pain, you'd have to close youself off. To never provide the opportunity for pain. I never want to be like that. Hurt and anger aren't a part of love, but they do seem inseparable at times. And you are right about another thing, if you could control bad thoughts, the mistakes we make wouldn't be so life-altering. I was really bad at that. My wife would say the least little thing and I would morph it into something that would rock me to the core. Then after we talked about it, I'd realize that I was an idiot, but I developed a habit that kept making things worse. That's why we live and learn. I know if we get through this, our relationship is going to be even better than it ever was, and I'm excited about that.

As for hubby, do what makes you comfortable. Just like him, I may never be able to reach the level of intimacy she really wants in a friendship, not because I don't want to, but because I may not have the "capacity". I'm not really sure how to put it into words, but sometimes I think that "unattached" parties or "friends" have a certain outlet for people to "release" to. I hope to get to the point where she can be confident enough to tell me everything and anything. Like you said about your husband and his friends, our guy friends aren't connected to us near as deep as many women are connected to theirs. That doesn't mean we don't care as deeply for our friends, we just don't have that need. It's a hard thing to nail down.

Let me try an analogy, take my wifes "friend" for instance. While they were together over there, she shared alot of things with him, he was no doubt interested in everything she had to say. She probably felt that she could be herself with him, he had no preconceptions of what she shared with him, he made her feel comfortable. I'll bet that he didn't have that same relationship with any of his guy friends, why? because he doesn't need to, he didn't need that type of intimacy with my wife either but the chance that there could be something else made him act "interested". Did he care for her anymore than I do, no f*&#ng way. Would he ever sacrifice for her the things that I would, never. I'd be willing to bet that if he knew, absolutely, that he never had the chance for anything with her, he would've never became such an "intimate" friend. I'll be willing to bet that now they are separated, she'll just be a distant memory to him. Even if they do talk again, his only interest will be to flirt. I'd bet that if she started talking about intimate things over the phone to him, he'd be leaning back, rolling his eyes thinking, "ok, let's get back to the flirting". I'm not sure if I conveyed my idea like I wanted but I tried.

Snuggle, your husband loves you to death. He wants to be connected to you just as you do to him. I just don't know that we have that "thing". Don't get discouraged. You may need to force feed him. Does he ask you to share more with him? My wife is like you but in a much more magnified way, she feels she can't share anything at the moment. At least I think that's how she feels. You, on the other hand, are sharing with him, just not as deeply as you would like to. That's not a bad thing, he just needs some work. It comes from being a boy, we're not supposed to have feelings, that's what dad taught us. We're supposed to be strong, not let that girly stuff bother us. We learn better when we get older but some of it hangs on. Force feed him. Show him that you trust him with those things, he'll appreciate it.

Anyway, hope you have a good weekend. I hope to tell you more good stuff soon.

What a difference a day makes...

She's really mad at me right now. My son and I went to go pick her up from the hair dressers and when I got there she was in the chair talking on the phone. I asked her who she was talking to and she told me someone from her work. We were going to a bazaar to do some shopping and she got really mad that the first thing I did was ask her who she was talking to.

Anyway, we didn't talk much when we walked around. We left pretty early and when I got home. I apologized for getting her upset but I explained that I'm still pretty sensitive about the whole subject of her speakging to him on the phone. She said that she has already told me that she wouldn't talk to him anymore and that she didn't want to live feeling like she is going to be scrutinized for everything she does. She told me that she felt like junk after I asked her that. She said she is trying to regain our friendship and friends would've said hi first before anything and that I should've been happy to see her. She always manages to make me feel bad. I wasn't trying to ruin our day. It caught me off guard that she was on the phone, she said she saw me walk in and if she had been doing something wrong, she would've hung up before I got to her. I didn't yell or disrespect or anything like that. I didn't even talk about it until we got back home. I only wanted to tell her why I asked and that the whole subject is still a sore subject for me. She's still angry about our past, she said she knows exactly how I feel because I did it to her. She yells and once again says she doesn't know if she wants to live like this. I'm trying my best but seem to stumble into emptying my love bank of what little I manage to build up. I'm getting to where I don't want to bring anything up for fear of losing more units. I have been making a conscious effort not to even address relationship issues but to day I just kind of tripped into it. I don't like us feeling like this. We've been doing so well for the last week or so. I guess it's just another lesson I learned.

She just came down and asked me if I was hungry so I guess she isn't so mad anymore. I just want to kick myself in the head for not being more aware of what I'm doing. Not that I DJ'd but I sure LB'd without even realizing I was doing it. I guess that happens sometime. I feel good about how I handled it but I sure don't feel good about how she got angry and how little empathy she shows me about this whole thing. I think that's what hurt me the most. She really doesn't show me any remorse for what's happened. She says she does, but doesn't show it in the least. I guess it's her way of paying me back for my past. I know I shouldn't be expecting anything, but should she show me at least a little bit? It's hard not to get a little sour about that. Anyway, that's my day. A step back day I guess. Hope everyone is doing ok.

{{{{Dino}}}}

Buck up little camper

This is a little counter-intuitive, but I think her slight overreaction to your question shows remorse. Not in the traditional I'm-sorry-let-me-make-amends sense, but if you are just looking for a sign that she feels badly about what she did, there it is, almost in neon. That overreaction and anger are coming from the guilt she feels. I know you didn't mean to trigger it, but I'm pretty sure that as soon as you asked it, she went right back to the A and felt guilty as heck again. So much so that she couldn't just rationally tell herself that it was just an innocent question and not to overreact. Then she redirected the anger to you for making her feel guilty. It's human nature. I know I've done it. And then you feel even MORE guilty because you know now that you are just crabby and overreacting and that keeps you feeling mad a little longer. LOL! Man we humans are silly sometimes

Good job on not getting sucked in and DJing. But here's what I think you could have done better ... after you apologized, you went on to justify what you did which basically negates the apology because you are pretty much saying that you shouldn't have to be sorry and from personal experience, that is really annoying!! The time to explain is later when she's not mad. Waaaaaaaaaay later. Like the next day or week. When we're mad, we're not thinking as rationally, we're just emotional. So put that first. Give her space to calm down or if you think it helps, just say "that was a dumb thing for me to say, sorry" or something like that.

Don't be afraid Dino. If you hold things inside because you're scared to make the other person mad, you won't be able to create the intimacy you want in your marriage. That's what I did and it just made me feel alone and sometimes mad when I would think my husband is happy and thinks our marriage is great but he's really totally oblivious to how I feel. And that's how I ended up here ... LOL! When I changed my focus from not saying or doing the wrong thing to figuring out how to respond better when I do say or do something and get a reaction I'm not expecting, our communication really improved.

Anyway, hope she is fixing you something yummy to eat now

Thanks Snuggle

Man I feel like junk today. I really can't wait for the day that I can just wake up in the morning and not think about this stuff anymore. It's so draining on my soul. We're never going to get this time back. It hurts so much, I love her so much, I just can't shake these bad feelings. I don't care how it happens, I just want to get back to being "us" again. All this stuff we talk about on this forum is great and it's helped me immensely but I have yet to find anything that helps deal with the disappoinment and pain. I know it's all a perspective but if something hurts, it hurts.

Thank you for the pointers about apologies. I never thought of that before. I guess it does take away from the apology if you try to justify why you did that you did. And you know what, I still don't know if she was being truthful with me or not. I can't do anything about it but it digs at me still. She's always emphsizing how she refuses to lie to me anymore but at the same time, without her telling me where she stand at this point, I still believe she could be "withdrawing" and therefore capable of lying to me.

I'm really trying to improve our communication. I think she's just not ready to put any effort into improving us yet. I'm trying to steer clear of any trigger topics so we can be constructive when the time does come (if it comes). We seem to do just fine when we ignore the "elephant" in the room, but if we even glance in that direction, she gets really defensive. I'm really trying to maintain my boundary. The contact thing is my only thing right now, I just can't seem to shake it. I won't move from my position but I need to find the most productive way to address it. She doesn't do things that make me mad so it's not like I've been harboring anger or placating her to keep the peace. It all goes back to patience. I know she's hurting, I know she's feeling it too, she's just alot better than me at holding it all in. It's not a healthy thing, I would think that after realizing how that kind of behavior got us here, she would let that stuff out and not let it fester inside of her. I can't lie, it does get me a little annoyed when I think that all this stuff isn't affecting her as much as it is me. It bugs the crap out of me thinking that she doesn't have concern about how I feel. Poor me huh...lol.

Well, it's the end of another week, not exactly how I would've liked it to end but it could always be worse. She came down this morning and she said good morning. She went out for a run and came over so I could give her a kiss on the cheek before she left so I guess that's a good sign for the day. Next weekend we go to germany for three days. There's going to be alot of triggers there for me so wish me luck. They actually had their last physical contact 6 months ago there before coming home, it was their last stop on the return trip, I'm sure she'll be thinking about it too.

Thanks again Snuggle, we'll see how this week goes.

Stay strong Dino. You've got to be the strong one right now. It's not the fun job of the relationship, but somebody's got to do it right?

You're wife doesn't sound like she's feeling strong enough to support you, but from what you've said, she has been the strong one in the past for you. How do you think she did it back then?

Anyway, I have an overnight business trip tomorrow, but I'll be back Monday night. Hope you have a good start to your week!

I know, I'm trying to be strong. I think I'm doing ok, definitely not easy but it shouldn't be, right?

You're absolutely right. She has been strong for us in the past, probably the only reason I've been able to be this strong so far. I really don't know how she did it. I'd guess that any sane woman would've left me a long time ago. She let's me know that quite often. Says that was probably her biggest mistake, could've saved the both of us alot of pain. The truth hurts. I won't give up on her, I know she can see us together again, she just can't begin to let herself open up to me yet. I don't know if it's the pain of the past, the anger of what's happened to her, or the shame and guilt of what she did. Either way, she's closed off to me right now. I hope she can let me back in one day. We can have such a good life, why did I manage to screw it up so badly. How does someone look at such a good life and no recognize it? Why did I have to do the things I did? What was it that I expected to get out of acting the way I did? Now that I look back, I can't see it, I can't think of a single reason for doing the things I did. Hindsight 20/20.

Today was actually a pretty good day, we laughed and talked and made home made chicken soup. I had to go to a dinner for the bosses going away. It made me sad. Not that the boss is leaving, but because most of the other guys had their wives there. I felt really lonely. I miss my wife, I miss her dearly. I want to have her by my side again, I want to be by hers. Like I said, the day was pretty good. As good as they get nowadays. Even the good days are hollow though. We're not together. I don't have my wife. Until that day comes, there will be something missing. She's part of me, has been for 20 yrs. I can't think of a better reason to work hard.

Thanks Snuggle

Just keep improving yourself and learning, dino. I'm really impressed by how much you're helping other posters here; it shows you're learning and growing; she'll see it too, eventually. But she has to clear the fog first. Just continue to be the best thing to come home to, where she doesn't have to feel guilt all the time, and she'll see the truth.

it's good to hear from you again cat

I hope you're right about that, I'm really trying. I think I'm seeing some progress but it's hard work. If I told you I wasn't hurting much of the time I'd be lying. But thanks to you guys, I'm doing pretty well under the circumstances.

As for helping others, I think I owe a little something back. I was really lost before I came here. No matter what our outcome is, I now have an idea of how we got into this situation and know how to stay out of it from now on.

As for being the best thing to come home to, only she can answer that. I can honestly say that she won't find anyone who will love her or treat her better than I've been doing. The thing that bites me the most is that I could've been doing this all along. I'm not doing anything "unusual", I'm not making any backbreaking changes and I'm not doing anything I don't "want" to do. I guess sometimes it just takes a life altering event to finally blast you into reality. Essentially that's what happened. I had built a world of fantasy around what I wanted and what I thought was real and this event snapped me out of it. It brought everything into such amazing clarity that I'm just dumbfounded as to why I could never see this before. It's kind of like when I first started wearing glasses. I was so used to seeing the way I was, I never even thought that things could be better. I just assumed that this was it and I didn't mind. When I put on my first pair of glasses, I was like WHOA!! Look at all those details!! Since then I've had eye surgery but you get the idea.

I hope it's not too late cat. I think were moving along ok. I still fight with the bad thoughts but I'm becoming a better fighter. She shows flashes of clarity. I try not to get worked up about them. We're going to Germany this weekend, three days together, I can't wait.

thanks again cat

I'm in a rough spot again

I just can't help but feel bad that she doesn't show me any affection whatsoever, none. Gees, it makes me feel so down. How can she stand to be around me like this without feeling anything for me? If I didn't want anything to do with her or didn't want to touch her, I'd go somewhere else. It just doesn't make sense to me. Like I said we get along fine, she just doesn't treat me any different than a co-worker. She doesn't even say good night before she goes upstairs, she just dissappears. When I kiss her good night on the cheek, she doesn't aknowledge it, like she's trying to ignore it. It's getting tough. I'm tired of feeling like crap all the time. I feel like I'm not on her thought process at all, like I'm an annoyance. Thats how I feel alot and it's getting harder to deal with.

Hey Dino! I'm back from the lake and getting ready for bed. I guess you are already well into your day over there on the other side of the world.

Anyway, I hear you making a lot of assumptions in your last post ... did she say she feels nothing for you? That she wants nothing to do with you? That she never thinks of you? That you're an annoyance?

I know that's how you FEEL, but how you feel and what is real and what is real about how SHE feels are two different things (hey that kinda rhymes!). Stop assuming the worst. What has your wife actually said or done? Distinguish that from what you are making it mean.

When I get down like this and get mad at my husband he tells me that I am doing it to myself, and I hate admitting that he is right because it means that I can't make him make me feel better. But I'll tell you, he's right ... LOL!

Dino, the more you deal with this, the better it will get. You'll get a second wind if you just keep pushing on I bet.

P.S. I know I'm not in the military, but I'm pretty sure your wife's army coworkers do NOT kiss her on the cheek good night So don't tell me she treats you like a coworker!

thanks Snuggle

I do get wound up sometimes beween what is real and what I percieve. I'm getting better but man it's tough sometimes. There's no way for me to know exactly how she feels, so I shouldn't assume. But sometimes actions say so much. I know she's not in the right frame of mind so her actions may not necessarily reflect how she's really feeling. I just need a kick in the shin once in awhile to keep me on track. You know she's said that same thing to me before? That I'm doing it to myself. I guess the thing that leads me down that path is that she says and does nothing, NOTHING! It's like the only difference in our house right now from before she went on her trip a year ago, is that we don't kiss, we don't cuddle, we don't have sex and she doesn't say she loves me as often as she used to. And the general feeling of tension in the air. Also, she was alot nicer to me back then. We're just surviving in the same house, that's it. I look at the positive things, that we're still together, but this is no way to exist. We'll never last staying this way and it's not healthy for either of us. There's going to be a day of reckoning sometime, I guess I need to survive until that day comes.

I've got to stop expecting things from her. But when does it become too much? Obviously not a single one of my ENs are being considered at all right now, none. And Snuggle, I'm just thinking out loud right now so don't chastise me please . I mean, months have gone by. I'm just hanging on, surviving and trying to do my best. I guess it's a personal decision huh? Just thinking out loud.

And yes, coworkers don't kiss her good night on the cheek. At least not now that she's home (small bit of sarcasm).

welcome back, hope your trip was nice, we're off to Germany this weekend. Not by ourselves but at least work won't be a distracting factor for her, we'll see.

ciao

Dino, a lot of your worrying seems based on the assumption that how your marriage is today is how it is going to be going forward. But how your marriage was a year ago isn't how your marriage stayed. How your marriage was five years ago isn't how your marriage stayed. You're not going to stay the way you are today.

You have become aware that you want your marriage to be healthy and happy and that you are a huge contributing factor to that. The past 20 years, you've just floated along whichever way life takes you. Now you've realized you have a rudder and can influence where you go.

Don't live in the past worrying about how things were in the past. You're future is already going to be different now. Look where you're going

Hi Dino! I was on another board and came across this post and thought of you:

Wants and needs

You do not get what you want, or even what you need. You get what you are. When you want this or need that, you are supporting the reality that you do not have it. Instead of putting your energy into wanting or needing, put it into being.

By your thoughts and actions, with your words and feelings, you can choose how to be. Use that powerful choice to give energy, attention and the substance of your life to those things you value most.

Instead of working to convince the world that you need some particular thing, put your effort into expressing it through your own life. Give up the habit of wanting more, and put your energy into living exactly as you choose to live.

Through the miracle of your life in this moment right now, you already have access to all that is. Your challenge is not one of want or need, but of appreciating and making full use of all that is available to you.

Instead of pushing life's abundance away with your wants and needs, let that abundance freely flow through you. Always live according to the best you can envision, and know all the joyful treasures of life.

Thanks for the encouragement

I know that things will not remain the same. And I know that I have a very direct impact on how things go from here. Things have already taken a turn toward the positive even though they're not near as good as I'd like them to be. But then again, who doesn't want things to be even better, it's human nature.

I've been in a bad funk the last couple of days. I'm not doing so well with that meditation thing. I haven't found the magic mind control formula to get the bad thoughts off my mind. I've been letting myself get down by thinking about all the things that make me feel bad instead of the positive things. It's real easy to do you know.

I miss her Snuggle, I miss her real bad. I'd be lying to you if I said I wasn't scared still. I'm doing good and your help has been awesome. I don't think anything will make me feel "good" about the situation, but I'm getting better everyday at finding the new perspective. I've definitely come to grips with the reality of things and understanding the importance of taking care of myself. Doing all these things on my own is taking a toll though. I hope she joins me in the fight one day.

Dino, I just know she will join you one day. She must be pretty awesome for you to love her this much, so there's no way she can watch you fight this hard for your marriage and not be moved eventually.

I can sure sympathize with trying to keep from dwelling on bad things. It's a hard habit to break, isn't it? I'm trying to do it too. In my case I've got a real problem person at work that I'm starting to obsess over. I have to just let it go so I can focus on work again, but it is SO HARD! Especially when he sends nasty emails every day to people around me with total lies about me Today our lawyer (yes, it's so bad I had to consult with legal!) said the best thing to do was probably just ignore him, not respond to his emails, not return his calls and hopefully when he is no longer rewarded with attention he will go away. We'll see.

Anyway, tomorrow I'm just going to try and give myself a little mental smack when I catch myself thinking about him and force myself to do something else (like real work!). I'll let you know how it goes. I know I'm not disciplined enough to do meditation yet so I won't even go there

Found a little thing while poking around, I thought it was worth sharing.

my soul's journey:

To let go of the fear and anger which imprisons my heart,
To relinquish all childish expectations and live joyfully in the world as it is --
not as I wish or imagine it to be,
To be free of the always craven and ever-craving ego,
To be released from the endless hungers of the body,
To see God in others,
To see God in everything,
To die without death and merge my consciousness into the
cosmic sea of bliss from which I came,

This is my soul's journey.


Snuggle, don't give that guy any satisfaction. As long as people respond to his kiddy stuff, he'll keep doing it. Do not let him create an uncomfortable work environment for you though, that should be handled by his supervision if it affects your performance. Anyway, be strong, he's just being a pest. Hope your day goes good.

The Buddha taught that the first principle of existence is impermanence.

Absolutely everything in this universe is impermanent.

Impermanence creates uncertainty.

I don't know about you, but I have a very low tolerance for uncertainty.

Uncertainty causes me discomfort.

Discomfort causes me to think stupid things.

Stupid thoughts cause me to take stupid actions.

My stupid actions bring about unfortunate results.

Luckily, the unfortunate results are impermanent.

Is this a great universe or what?

LOL! I liked both your posts That first one would be a good mantra for when you are battling those bad thoughts.

I did pretty good today, but I can't take all the credit. About halfway through the day I developed a stabbing headache that kept me pretty distracted. I've really got to remember to restock my desk with some tylenol! A couple of my coworkers ran into Mr. Pest at lunch so when they came back and relayed the story it did trigger me a bit and I logged onto the BPD board I've been using a lot but I didn't let myself check anything else on the web (although now that I am thinking about it I do have the urge to check his websites and see if he has been up to anything new). It sounds like he's latched onto someone over at LAPD, so maybe he will stop his harassment campaign. My boss and upper management at my work have backed me up and realize that he is basically a nutjob, but since he hasn't broken any laws we haven't been able to do much to stop him from emailing or calling in his complaints. He did get banned from coming to my office though.

So how was your day? Are you all set for your Germany trip? I wish I was going to Germany! I love to travel, but just don't have the time or budget for much this year.

My day was ok. Not good not bad. I'm still in this funk though. I don't know why but I've really been feeling like junk. Don't know why it's been that way the last couple of days. I just look at her everyday and I want so much to touch her and have her pay some kind of attention to me. I'm just feeling so lonely for her I guess. She's so beautiful but I feel almost like a pervert when I look at her. I'm really trying to stay positive. I even laminated a little card to keep in my wallet that has a few of the positive things from my list. I want/need to detach myself from these feelings. I just don't know how to do it. I can feel the fearful thoughts trying to creep back in.

Yesterday she was talking to my son when we were buying some football equipment for him online. She was talking about what sizes to get him and she said, "just get the bigger sizes, that way you can still use them when we move to Arizona". I don't know where I'm moving to when I leave here yet. Arizona is where we want to go but she has said that if she doesn't like where they try to send me, she's going back to Arizona with the kids. I know there's no way to know what's going to happen when the time comes, but she's made a couple of comments the last few days about moving there with no mention of me included, just what she's going to do. Those little things really rip me apart. It would be one thing if she said them in anger or during an argument but when they are said in casual conversation, they seem to carry much more weight. I'm just reading into things so much, it's really taking a toll on my strength.

I've been Plan A for 3 months now, I can say there have been improvements. No commitment from her. No effort from her. Just a state of nonconfrontation. It a nutshell, that's basically what we have. I'm definitely better in how I deal with things with her. I'm providing the best possible environment for her. And I'm doing ok for myself. Not a bad situation but nowhere near a marriage or relationship between two people. How long do I continue Plan A? How do I know if Plan A is even working? She isn't leaving so am I really even in Plan A? I'm dang sure not in recovery, were not working toward anything as far as I can see. Nonconfrontation, that's about it. I just don't understand where we're at or where we're going. I hate just coasting along, that's how we got here in the first place.

Snuggle I have another question for you

The contact with OM topic still bugs the snot out of me. She's grudgefully told me that she won't contact him anymore. You know my situation, he lives in another country so I'm not worried about physical contact. She has yet to tell me anything close to wanting to direct any of her energy into making our marriage work yet she doesn't tell me it's the end. Although most of her comments are directed to the latter (fog???, who knows?). She still sticks by her statement that, even though she admits she made a terrible mistake by letting herself get weak, she still values him as a friend and the situation doesn't change that.

I guess what I'm telling you is that all these factors play into how I feel. I'm not yet strong enough to detach myself and say, it is what it is. I haven't seen anything that would suggest that she is still contacting him, but her lack of commitment to me in that matter makes it a thorn in my side. I keep thinking about what everyone here says about contact with OM will make recovery impossible, that we can't move forward unless there is absolutely no contact. Is that why we seem to be stuck here coasting along? Is that why she is seemlingly content with how things are right now? I can't believe she is content with this mess but she doesn't seem to want to improve anything either? Maybe her EN for domestic support is being fulfilled by me and her EN for openess and honesty is being filled by him long distance, I know that is one of her top ENs. I don't believe she is even open to any of her other ENs being met right now. Those are the only 2 I can think of that are even open for discussion. If she hasn't even shown me the commitment to NC, why should I believe it to be true? Should I keep pressing that issue? My gut feeling is no. She has made it crystal clear to me that my pressing her about things and making her feel "locked up" is a major factor in why we're here in the first place. She tells me that I made her feel suffocated by my past jealousy and that is the biggest hurdle she has to get over if we have any chance. She tells me that she never wants to feel smothered by anything ever again, tells me that at her age she shouldn't have to feel like that, that she should be able to make her own decisions without worrying about flak from me. Says I should support her with any thing she wants to do. (I did become pretty jealous and overbearing in the last few years, from lack of self esteem). Even if I did press it and she finally caved and said "you're right, I promise I won't contact him anymore" what meaning would it have? I'm just thinking out load again, I sure would like your opinion though, or anyone elses who happens to be reading.

Have patience with me Snuggle, I'm still struggling through all of this. Good days and bad days remember? Things may seem worse than they are when you read my posts but I'm doing as well as anyone could hope.

Dino,
I am with you in spirit in many ways.

My H has tried to convince me that any contact with OW is not harmful and does not affect our relationship. He admits the A was a mistake but that's it. But...he also ends a phone call with "I still love you" so where does that leave me? He is just coasting along without voicing any form of commitment to our M, not directing any energy towards recovery, and he acts content with this life. It seems easy for him to sit back, watch the W struggle thru the uncertainty of life in limbo between being married and facing divorce, and watching DS struggle to understand and deal too.

Is this USUAL WS behavior until they snap out of it??

I'm not sure but it is exhausting and I am not strong enough either to walk away. I hope you get your answers and because I feel the same, I hope you don't mind if I read the responses you receive and try to use the same advice.
Best wishes, and stay strong!

Dino,

Do you think you have been or are controlling? i didn't see I was in a lot of ways but have seen the light and effects of that.

Hearts

You know, the only thing that keeps me going is the thought that one day she is going to "snap" out of it. If she could only see how ridiculous all of this is, I believe she would. My wife has always been committed to our family and I'm not sure if she's really thought about the possibility of us really being divorced. She says she has thought all of that through and has come to grips with it. She tells me that she is willing to burden the blame with our families that her A was the reason for our failed marriage although she really blames everything on me and my past (I think thats the fog speaking when she says those things).

But she truly believes that she can continue a friendship with this guy and that he has nothing to do with our situation as it is. She says that she would've came to this point with or without that A (again I attribute these comments to fog). But she's always has friendship with males and she's never been the girly type. That's one of the things that attracted me in the first place. There are some circumstances surrounding the A that got them both in alot of legal trouble, my W has already been punished but OM hasn't yet, She says she is not in contact with him but says she is concerned with his well being because she still values him as a friend. I know she's contacted him prior to our agreement but I didn't ask if she said "I love you" to him, I don't want to know. Since my past of unfounded jealousy has caused much of our marriage problems, it's hard to take a hard stance on this because it triggers her fear of my jealousy again and she doesn't want to feel my controlling behavior ever again. She tells me she isn't contacting him but I'm not very confident of that and she doesn't care much if I am.

I don't really believe that this is easy for her, it seems that she's struggling too. She's always been better at keeping her feelings inside so I don't know. I'm sure that she's not content with how things are but what she intends to do about them is what my fears are based on. Fear is useless but it's there all the same. I'm just using my desire to save our marriage as my strength, I'm hoping that one day she recognizes it. I don't believe I can keep this up forever, neither her or I will survive this way. Something will have to give one day, either one of us will give up or we'll start REAL recovery. For all I know, she's already given up and hasn't been able to say so, i don't know. But until she walks away from me, I'll have to keep fighting, I owe it to her and my kids. I hope we can get some insight from those that have survived simliar situtions.

Good luck Hearts

ezb

In the beginning I wasn't controlling. But with the domino effect, the little things in our marriage that accumulated over time caused me to lose some self esteem little by little. I started to be controlling because of jealousy and because she started to withdraw from me as a result. It wasn't necessarily men that I was jealous about, I got jealous because I would see that she seemed to enjoy her time away from me more than the time she spent with me. It became a constant struggle with me and I always allowed my taker to win and I would LB and DJ all the time, which brings us to the present. I truly believe that my behavior in this area is the biggest downfall for our relationship. I won't do it again, I've made a promise to myself that I will never again allow that to happen, with or without her. So your answer is yes, I was controlling. I believe it will be the biggest barrier between her and I and the possibility of recovering our marriage. I'm not sure she'll be able to get past it. She is so afraid of feeling the stress of being controlled that I'm not sure she'll ever let me back in. Until that happens, until I can prove that I won't do it again, until she can let down her guard and give me a chance to prove myself, we won't get far. I hope it's not too late and I'm trying my best to make her feel safe with me. I really screwed up by being the source of pain instead of protecting her from it. I really don't know if she's ever going to get past it. I'm just trying to get by, day by day, until our paths split farther apart or until they join together again.

Me too Dino, it has been our greatest source of pain (or I should say hers and now mine). Thats where my concentration is right now I just have to see the patterns before they develop and it will change.

Did you see my other thread on control and manipulation? Not sure if it can help you but it sure helps me. It's hard not to do the controlling things when your in our situation or at least it's hard not to make her feel like your controlling her.

Dino, what exactly is going on in your lives? There's no contact any more, right? Are you going to MC? Have you called the Harleys? Is she refusing to interact with you?

cat

There is no contact she tells me. We are not going to MC because she says she not ready for anything right now. She will not even go to a doctor for stress or any other problems. We have not called the Harleys because right now it would be useless. I've done IC on my own and even seen a doc about depression and have been here on MB on a regular basis. If by interaction you mean talking, doing things, living together then yes, she is interacting with me. But if you mean interacting by trying work out our marriage issues and move somewhere in our relationship, then NO, she is not interacting with me. Everything I find here says that i'm still early in my plan, that I need to Plan A still. As of now, whenever I start any dialog that involves anything about the A or our relationship, she starts the rewind of our past and all the things that have made her move away from me, she replays all my mistakes of the past, says she wishes I would've changed earlier, says it's too late, all the text book things. The last time that happened was about 3 weeks ago. She asks me to leave it alone and give her time to heal before we start into those things. She keeps telling me that she can't change overnight, but things aren't changing at all. She hasn't tried to pretend or paint any rosey pictures for me, she's been bluntly honest about that. She says she doesn't want to commit yet but doesn't want to call it quits yet either. She says it would be unfair for her to make a decision right now with all the pressures and stress she has from work, retirement, relationship etc. She says that she may "change her mind" about us once she gets past some of the stressors she has right now (what is that supposed to mean, kind of puts the priority of our marriage into perspective). So I'm taking advice I've recieved here and am avoiding "relationship" altogether. Those talks quickly drain what little I have in her love bank. Someone told me not to even engage in relationship talk until your love bank balance is way above full, or at least until you can make a withdrawal without bankrupting yourself. So thats what I'm doing for now. I'm thankful that she's not jumping the gun and calling it quits but it's not the other direction either. LIMBO.

Because of our current relationship, I sometimes think that she's "cake eating", contacting this guy and lying about it, how can I know? But then I ask myself, what can she possibly expect to get from OM on a long term basis from 5000 miles away? Can she really exist like this with me and be emotionally sustained by a guy in another country, by phone? Does she think that phone calls can really take the place of a good husband and family? I don't know cat, and I'm starting to get a little irritated. Am I doing the right thing by staying in Plan A? it's only been 3 months, were not fighting, were not uncivil. We're like roommates, who sleep in the same bed and pretend that this is the way things are supposed to be for now. She says I love you most of the time, not to my face much if at all. She does little to nothing for me. I try to engage her with invites to things, she declines. Asked her to come to my softball game last night, she said she didn't know if she could get out of work in time. I assumed that since she didn't show, she was still at work. After my game I came home and she was already there, that made me feel good. She's just not that nice to me, not really mean but not so pleasant either. She shows no interest or effort in doing anything for me, not even the courtesy of saying goodnight when she goes up to bed.

I've thought about Plan B. But it would be impossible with our situation. We live in England, no family, no friends close enough to take me and kids in. No way to afford another place and good luck finding one for 6 months. I'd move out on my own but theres no way she gets to stay in our house and enjoy my kids when she is the one fighting our recovery, or the very least, not participating. We're leaving in 6 months and my fear is that when we go back, she goes her way, I go mine. There will be a fight for the kids if that's the case. cat, I'm still dedicated to my goal but I do think about things. I can't help but try to provide myself a little protection, I have very little at the moment. So this is my life, what the heck am I supposed to do?

It might not be a bad idea for you to call the Harleys by yourself. Tell them your situation and see what the expert says. Remember, we're just normal people here, we only repeat what we've read. I guess if it were me, I'd save up the $185 and call.

Do you have a thread over on Infidelity? They have more experience with this, and they don't often come over here; maybe they'll have a better game plan.

Moneys not an issue, I may call them myself. I don't want to leave anything to chance you know? Thanks for looking out though. It may just be an over active imagination right now and my desire for results, but you never know. I've not been in the best positive frame of mind the last few days. We'll see how we do over the weekend in Germany, maybe my mindset will improve.

Thanks cat

Dino, maybe this is the Californian in me, but dude, chill ... LOL!

You are putting way too much pressure on yourself and your wife to get back to a certain standard. It took many years for you to get to this low point, please don't worry so much if you spend a few months climbing out of it. When I first started visiting this board, I read on one of the threads a great analogy for sticking to Plan A even when you see no results ... they said it was like throwing pebbles into a pond ... each pebble sinks into the water and it seems like it has no effect, but below the surface those pebbles are adding up and one day you'll toss a pebble and it won't sink. It might take awhile to throw in enough pebbles, but don't give up, ok?

Trust me, your wife is not content. She's TIRED! She isn't fighting right now because she's emotionally drained. You have to give her time to heal. Honestly I think it would take me at least 6 months to not feel numb from the trauma of ending an affair plus the added drama of almost losing my job over it. Yikes! She can't feel right now because her heart's been broken, but that doesn't mean she doesn't love you and doesn't want to fix your marriage. If it was her leg that was broken, you wouldn't expect her to get up and run a marathon with you right away. It's kind of like the emotional version of that.

Personally, I don't think you should press the NC issue. What would you gain versus what would it cost? Maybe you feel a little better, but at the cost of her feeling probably a lot worse. No one likes to be badgered or treated like a child or like they can't be trusted. Personally, I don't think contact with the OM makes recovery impossible for everyone. I think whether or not it does depends on the maturity level of the people involved. If your wife were typically a weak person (i.e. gives in to peer pressure, prone to making bad decisions, ego driven) then contact probably would keep her head screwed up. But for people who are fairly grounded and not so flighty, I can conceive of them having contact and it not holding them back from going on with their lives.

Plus with your history of jealousy, this is really an opportunity for you to show you've changed and are no longer the person who makes big love bank withdrawals. Maybe this is stereotyping, but if your wife is strong enough to have had a career in the Army, she's got to be at least as independent minded as I am and I would not put up with that from my husband. He does have a few issues with jealousy ... he hates that I am still friends with my ex-boyfriend from college for example ... but he doesn't push it. It would be a big LB if he did. From your post, I really think you already know what the right thing to do is. Fight that green-eyed monster, not your wife.

Hope today is a little better

Dino,

When an an addict first begins to try to recover after hitting the bottom of their life, they start to experience a series of emotional and physical symptoms know as withdrawal...

Guess what...Those symptoms can include lack of focus, a questioning of desire to go forward and continue the program, anger, frustration, sleeplessness, emotional outbursts (angry, sad, super happy)

Does any of this sound like what you are seeing in your wife?

Same symptoms. Same solution.

Be patient.

I know it stinks after fighting so hard to get her to even begin to converse about staying married, but now is not the time to demand any specific response from her. As she goes through withdrawal from OM (yeah, it sucks) you are going to have to help her. Imagine that, she ripped your heart out, you overcame your hurt and fought for her and now you have to hold her while she cries for OM.

Cat has already said that you need to give this time because you didn't get here overnight and won' recover overnight either.

How long have you been married? That is how long it took to get to right here. Recovery will take...2 years or so with both of you working at it. But by working at it I mean trying to rebuild your love for each other first. Unless you do that, you might as well call the lawyers now.

Push for NC? You can't demand it, but you can clearly state your boundary that you will not share her with anyone else. You have to monitor to ensure NC and if you find it has been broken you have to address it head on. You can't ignore it, but you also have to understand that just like that addict, she might fall off the wagon early on, maybe more than once.

Imagine if you would a tornado hitting your house. The walls are blown to pieces, the roof is gone entirely, maybe scattered over the yards of folks a mile or more away. Your furnishings are pretty much trashed and all you have left is the few little things you can find by picking through the rubble.

You can have new appliances delivered right away. You can get a crew and start framing the walls. You could have the roofers here on Tuesday morning to begin work.

And that big screen TV you wanted for so long? It's on sale right now, today only, for half off. You could be watching that sucker in your brand new living room by this time next week...

Except for a few minor details...

The house has been trashed, the debris has to be cleaned up first and then the foundation must be made secure or replaced completely before anything can be built on it. You might be able to throw a house up in a week, they do it on TV every Sunday night, but without a foundation, it will fall at the first sign of trouble.

Your marriage has been blown to smithereens. What once stood is gone. It isn't just damaged, it is damaged beyond repair...But I am not saying to scrap it. Take the important parts, the things you want to salvage from it (That would be you and her, BTW) and save them for the new marriage you are going to build.

And the first step toward building that new marriage is to get rid of the junk lying around. You know, those Love Busters, AO, DJ, lies, IB, AH, Selfish demands...

But you aren't ready to move in yet. First you need a solid foundation. That is your love for each other. Until you have that built up strong and ready to take on the load of the new construction on top of it, there is no point in building anything else. All the new stuff will just be wasted because the place just won't hold together in the long term.

Dr Harley states that what makes his method different is that he seeks to solve one problem first. That is, he wants to rebuild the love between husband and wife as the first step in the process. Fixing long standing issues, changing the dynamics of the relationship, better and more open communication all need to happen. But all of those things take time. They also exact a heavy price. Unless the foundation is good, nothing else matters.

Do MB stuff. Don't talk about it, do it...Spend 15 hours per week having fun and meeting each other's ENs. Help each other overcome the LBs, those things that rob each other's LB$. Give each other care and honesty and time above all else. Many of the problems with the old will become but a memory if you begin working on the new.

Yeah, all that other stuff has to be dealt with. The debris needs to be hauled away, but unless the foundation is fixed first, there is nothing that can be done with the rest of the house...

Mark

Hello all, Mark, Snuggle,

Thanks for the replies. We're back from Germany, the weekend went well. Daughter did well and they were runners up for the championship. We had a good time but it was way too short.

As for wife and I, things went fine. Nothing real dramatic to report. We got along fairly well by my standards. No issues or anything like that. She was very cordial as usual as was I. There was only one tense moment I think. She had gone to the restroom and for some reason, I always suspect that she uses that as an excuse to get off on her own to use her cell phone. I tried to fight it off but couldn't help myself and followed her into the building a few minutes later. The last time we had it out about NC I told her I suspected her of calling him while gone to the restroom or other times she gets off on her own so I think she's leery of it. Anyway, just as I walked by the rest room, she came out, I had paused by the entrance of the womens restroom and she walked out so pretended to be reading some wall bulletins, she saw me, said hi and walked out. I felt like an a$$. Back out by the field she seemed to be a little perterbed for awhile but things smoothed out. I didn't mention anything about it the whole weekend but it always bugs me whenever she gets off on her own. No other negative things though, so I guess thats good.

As for positive stuff. No earth shattering news. The first night there, we went to bed together tired and slept well. I was a little emotional because of being there and little things triggering thoughts about the A. Like I said, that was the place they had their last physical contact. I couldn't help but think about where they had been, what they were doing. Did they eat at the same places we were eating at, did they go to the same places we were going? Just stuff like that, but I kept it together.

She does show little signs of affection here and there. I think it helps her sometime to get away from home and just have the family around to think about. The things she does are so subtle though, I remember all of them vividly because I get so little.

She held my hand while she slept for a little bit the first night.
She leaned over and rubbed my shoulder the first night
She laid her hand on me the second night while we were in bed
She seems to be over on my side sometimes just to have a little contact
On the plane ride back she laid her head on my shoulder to sleep and held my arm
At home last night, we watched a movie and she laid on the couch next to me and put her head on my side (with a pillow underneath)

All these little things I see but I try to discount them for fear of setting myself up for pain. Sometimes I think she does these things just to keep me going, you know? Like shes just trying to keep me alive, like bread and water. They just feel so good but at the same time it hurts. She still doesn't say she loves me to my faec, just won't do it. When I say it to her, she just kind of smiles. I want to touch her so bad but it just doesn't seem like I should. I put my arm on her last night when we were on the couch but it was very tentative. I don't want to put any kind of pressure on her. Bob Pure said he cut off any physical contact and said he stopped saying "i love you" and it worked for him. I get confused. In bed I want to lay behind her and put my arm around her but I don't want her to be uncomfortable (it just doesn't make sense for me to fear that).

We're getting along good, I don't want to mess that up. I guess I'll just have to tough it out. I like the little signs but my gut just tells me that there so superficial. I don't know. 6 more months here and we'll see where we go. I hope things get better.

Thanks again for your advice. I'll keep you up to speed.

Hi Dino! I'm glad to hear overall Germany was a good weekend for you. Congrats on your daughter doing so well in her competition!

I don't know why, but I 've been thinking about the A alot lately and it's really been bugging me. Since I had gone through about 3 months of pain and wondering what had happened to our marriage prior to dday, when I finally found out about the A, it was almost a relief. Sounds kind of crazy but that's what I felt. The prior 3 months I was kind of in a daze of confusion wondering why she felt the way she did. I guess I talked myself out of thinking of an A, but there was a little voice telling me the truth. So, when I finally found out about the A, I felt a little relief that there was a REASON she was acting the way she was, that there was a CONDITION that was causing the turmoil. Which brings me to my next point and the reason for this post.

I never really got mad about the A. It never really had me reeling like maybe it should have. I was devastated of course, the thought of my loved one falling for another, the thought of her touching and being touched by another, the thought of her telling someone else she loved them. Of course I was, and am still reeling with pain and hurt, but not anger. When she told me over the phone, I immediately forgave her. I immediately told her I wanted to save our marriage and work things out. I sometimes think that was a mistake. I think that my condition of being devastated by her action of the time and her ILYBNILWY statement had me in a state of neediness that I didn't recognize. I was so starved for her love and attention that I would've dove at any reason to get things back on track. Other than her initial shock of being exposed by OMW and her initial fear of losing the family, she hasn't had to feel the fear of losing anything. I relieved that fear by immediately forgiving her and telling her she had my support and love. She never had to fear any repercussion other than the legal stuff from the military. I think that it may have an impact on her willingness to work our our marriage. The first thing I asked her after the exposure was whether or not she wanted to save our marriage and she said yes. 3 months after dday and a couple of talks, she has said in the heat of the moment that she's not sure if she wants it to work, that if she had to make a decision at that moment, she would say no. Of course she always leaves the door open, I'm not sure what to think about that.

So I guess I'm just asking for opinions. Did my actions on dday set me up for a longer chance at recovery? Did my "letting her off the hook" give her a free pass to act how she wants and not put more energy into repairing our marriage? Did my not taking a harder line give her the leverage to take me for granted and string this thing out? Those are the things weighing on my mind right now. Obviously my past had alot to do with how I reacted on dday. I may have acted differently had I been the model husband, but I wasn't. So just like most people, I took some blame for the situation, took alot of it actually and beat myself daily for letting her down over our lives.

Things are going ok I guess. I still have to fight the need to hear it from her. To hear that she "wants" things to work, that she is trying to make things better. I don't get that or feel it sometimes. We're getting along good, we don't fight, we don't argue. We do things together and we're sleeping in the same bed. She seems to touch me more lately but nothing anyone would consider intimate. She rubbed my back the other day when I was stretching, she did it without my asking. She laid on my chest this morning and held my hand before we got up. It feels so good for her to do those things, they bring me to tears everytime and I have to hide it from her. I'm getting better for myself but the pain and hurt I feel from not having her as my wife hasn't subsided in the least. I'm handling it much better than before but it doesn't hurt any less. I miss my wife and her love, I'll never get over that and I don't want to. If we part wasy I will survive, but I will be forever scarred by the loss of something special, something we had and lost. By our failure to keep our promises to each other and our children. I hang on to the slim chance that we can come back from all of this and regain what we once had. I want us to have a healthy happy marriage once again, I hope she can see that and realize that it is still possible, even with all the damage we have caused.

thanks for reading

I wish I could detach myself. Why is this whole thing making me so down. I've read everything, studied everything, tried every self control technique I can find and somehow I just can't keep myself from being depressed about this whole situation. I just can't find the way to be ok with how my wife and I relationship is right now.

I manage to keep the happy face on and portray the happy good husband but when I'm alone I'm a wreck. I'm still crying everyday to myself, not because of fear for the future anymore, but because of the utter loneliness and missing my wife. Thoughts of the A come once in awhile but they in no way consume me. I just miss her touch so much, I miss her companionship, her love. Does that go away? If it does, will I not love her anymore? Why would I want the feeling to go away other than the selfishness of wanting to "feel" better. Even if it did go away, where would that leave us? Without the feeling of want, how would you fuel your desire to repair your marriage and rebuild your love? How do you not hurt but still have the drive to save your marriage? Just questions.

Confusion is where I am right now. I know I'm supposed to take things at face value and not attach meaning to anything but I'm having trouble with that. There seems to be an increase in physical contact. Usually, basically all the time, the contact happens while in bed when she is half asleep. Like last night, during the night she rolled over and put her arm on me. About an hour before the alarm went off, she rolled over again and put her head on my shoulder, she kissed me on the cheek, we held hands and basic stuff like that. Don't get me wrong, I love every minute of that. But once we wake up and get out of bed, she's back to being standoffish. She tries not to touch me when we walk by each other, doesn't say much. She still goes off to bed without so much as a "goodnight or I'm going upstairs". She just kind of disappears and I find her already asleep or reading. No I love you before leaving, almost as if the things she did during the night were done by someone else. It's weird, I feel as if we need to talk about things but at the same time, I don't want to rock the boat at this time. I don't think we have enough in the love bank to afford a potential blow up, not on my part, but on her side of things. I'm pretty sure she still isn't in the right frame of mind to talk about things in a rational manner. As a matter of fact, I'm pretty sure that our love bank is still in the red. I honestly believe that I'm making some small deposits but it's slow going right now.

I just wish I knew where we stood. I know that goes against everything we talk about here on MB. It's killing me not knowing whats on her mind. I guess it is still fear that has me in it's jaws. I mean, I have come to terms with the potential of having to live a life without her in the future, I've accepted that, not happy about it, but accepted it. I'm a doer, I have the overwhelming need to know we are doing SOMETHING about our situation. I know I'm doing something, but is she? Is she trying to work things out inside herself? Is she even thinking about us? She has to be, it would be impossible to ignore the atmosphere that surrounds us in the house. I'd like to think were moving along. I keep telling myself that it's only been 3 months since dday, she's still in some withdrawal. Still in ALOT of withdrawal, but that makes me feel kind of bad too. If the separation from OM is killing her that bad, she was in deep. Hurts bad. I think alot has to do with her "reintegration" from deployment. It's been 6 months since she came home but alot of the complaints I hear from her have to do with her feeling "closed in" or "controlled". She's told me often about how happy she was to be able to do what she wanted, when she wanted and noone questioned her because she didn't have to answer to anyone. It's like that when deployed, all you have to worry about is getting to work on time and staying alive. I don't think she's dealt very well with reassuming the roles of being back home. Being a mom, stressful job and our situation along with the punishment aspect of her actions. She's got alot on her plate. We'll see soon enough. I feel a little better thinking about all the things she's dealing with.

Another day starts. I hope for little signs of improvement each day, just something to tell me that we're moving. I hate this weight on my chest, it makes it hard to breathe. I can't think of a healthy way to get rid of it. I guess is just part of my burden.

thanks for reading

Dino,

Thats what I constantly think about also. Crave for her feedback or to tell me what shes thinking now. It feels like every time i see or talk to her something changes for the worse. Take great solose in the fact you know where she lays at night, it should be a major comfort to you at this time and i know it's hard to see that in your position. I'm separated and have been for months and let me tell you bud it's 100 times worse. I haven't even tried to find out where she has been living or followed her and yet I'm still controlling and manipulating. I guess thats just in ways that she sees but yet can't see the improvements I've made for what they are and she has no idea how much words of affirmation, even little ones, on that would greatly improve everything else. But asking for that or even bringing that up is something I can't do because that would be making it about me and trying to manipulate things in her mind. Right now we're going nothing but backwards, just adding more problems to the list and she tells me tonight she doesn't think the pain and hurt will ever stop when thats all I want to do is stop the pain and hurt and repair things to even better then before. Thats all I care about is stopping her pain and making it go away forever and to love her again. I've been loving her even though she hasn't been loving me for so long now.

Snuggle

I read so many of these stories and they start to get me down. I just can't read another one of horror stories of how we humans let our most precious gift get away because of selfish behaviors. I'm as guilty as anyone but it doesn't make me feel any better. I miss my wife, I miss my marriage, I miss my friend and companion. I just miss us. I hope things can change but I'm not getting a good feeling from reading these stories. I hope you're doing well, I'll keep trudging along in hopes that my baby comes around.

Thanks again

Hey Dino! I am sending you a big virtual hug ... I was just thinking about you and thought I'd sneak on the board this morning (I'm at work ... hee, hee).

I know it doesn't help much to hear me say this, but in time the pain and hurt you are feeling right now is going to get better and go completely away. I promise!!!!!!! If it doesn't come true, I will give you $1million, my first born and the keys to my Porche. It's hard to see from your side of the pain fence, but having been there myself and having been there for friends and family in the same position, I know it is true.

Stop reading the other stories on here!! Read something that will help you feel more positive (my personal fave are comics ... I love, love, love "Mutts" ... omg, so cute ... and "Dilbert").

Oh and stop second guessing yourself. Personally I think your reaction to your wife when she first told you about the affair was perfect. Instant forgiveness ... that is true love. Getting blasted with anger ... well if you want your wife to pretend she wants to work on the marriage because she is scared of you or feels guilty, ok, but I know that is not who you are or what you want. She is coming back to you because you are the best thing there is in her life too. Those unsolicited backrubs and touches do mean something ... it means she feels loving towards you at that moment. ENJOY THE MOMENT! Don't add on all the baggage of what does it mean, or try and figure out what she is doing, etc. Her emotions and moods, just like yours are in flux, that's all Things will settle down, you just have to ride out the storm.

Hey do you know what lolcats are?

hey dino
sorry to butt into your conversation but i just need to talk to someone in a simmilar situation (and it helps that you alo are married to a milatary wife). first ill say that i completely understand the feeling of being killed by not knowing what my wife is thinking, and it is not getting better. but i appauld you for dealing with it for so long it gives me some hope. ive only really been experiencing it for a week, and i need some advise on what to do now. see my wife got deployed and ive been antisipating her return the intire time (woried about her), she is expected this friday. but last monday she told me that she didnot want to be with me anymore. i really dont want this marriage to end, she is the world to me and i really cant bare to be without her. but now i have no clue what to do when she comes back friday. so can you give me some advise on what to do and maybe how to handle this problem?? any thing would be helpful and really appreciated.
thanks

Sling

the best thing for you to do is to start yourself a thread and explain the whole story that way you'll get the best help possible. These people here on MB are great and they will help.

First thing, you're going to want to be all over her, don't. If she was gone for awhile, she has to go through a period called reintegration. Go to your family support center and get some info on it. Your wife has to adjust to civilzation at home again as well as adjust with you. She's going to have alot on her lap when she gets back, I know my wife did. Try the best you can not to looks depressed or sad around her, it sucks but you've got to put in her mind that you were ok when she was gone adn you'll be ok if she decides to go. You can tell her that you want to stay married to her, but don't portray yourself as needy. You'll have to wait to see how she acts when she gets back.

Start yourself a thread and tell your story, I'll keep an eye out for you.

I wish you the best

Snuggle

Sorry, but I don't know what lolcats are. I'm sure you'll tell me right?

Anyway, thanks for those refreshing words, I need that from time to time. I've really been in a rut, just can't seem to get on the up swing. I've been feeling so low lately and crying everyday wtf? Things seem like there going well, I think. I just can't shake this funk. I guess I'm just missing her extra huh? She treats me pretty good, still not very loving though, she can be rough at times but I need to quit being so sensitive too.

I'm going to try my darndest to get out of this today, think positive. I'm tired of feeling like this, i want it to go away. It's draining on my soul and I'm afraid some defense machanism will set in that isn't so productive. Nah, I won't let that happen.

Thanks again Snug for being such a big help

You've been in such a funk Dino, I've decided I'm going to have to pull out the big guns ... lolcats! Some people will have you believe they are a big time waste ... and that may be totally true ... but they also make me laugh and feel pretty good about a world that can produce such silliness ... so there

lolcats are basically silly pictures of cats (or other animals) with silly captions written in "lolspeak" which is sort of english, but like cat english. The most famous one is this one:
Cheezeburger #1

But there are tons of other ones on the icanhascheezburger.com website or on lolcats.com, etc. (you can just search lolcats).

Here are some of my other favorite ones:
Gunz
My Interest
+3 Cheezeburger

Sometimes just thinking about a particularly funny lolcat makes me smile, I hope it does you too

thanks for the insite dino i really needed that. i did start a post before i contacted you its the one called "spouse of a military member" but in new to posting anything and when i start i had only three days to look for help so thats why i was looking at others and found you. so thank you again.
i wish i could help you out to but me being new to all of this i cant offer much help. sorry. just dont give up hope that things will work out. wish you my best.

Thanks Snug
I appreciate the effort. I think I've just about saturated myself with "knowledge" about how all this stuff happens but there's no telling whats in someones mind. I can't shake it. I'm between a rock and a hard place. I feel as if she needs to get a glimpse of life without me and away from her kids. She has said before that she would follow me because she knows the best place for the kids is with me. Her decisions have placed her in an awkward position of retiring without a plan in place. I think she also knows that she's not in a good mental state right now and her "taker" is ruling her world right now. She has no idea what that is because she refuses to participate in our marriage still. I pretty sure she's thinking that her just being here is a sacrifice she is making, and I should be grateful. I know Snuggle, all in my head and I shouldn't attach meaning to what she does. I'm beginning to feel like the perverbial "doormat". I'm avoiding the NC issue, not that there is an evidence other than her snippiniess towards me. I maybe taking too much of this MB stuff to heart. NC = no progress, that's what everyone says and now it's etched into my brain, not healthy for me. I'm doing good right now with the snippiness but can feel by defenses beginning to build up. I understand all the issues surrounding our sitch, I do. It's even been awhile since the actual A has caused me any stress. But the little jabs and pokes I feel are taking their toll. Nothing too overt, stuff that seems harmless but things that I don't even do to people I don't like at work! For instance, if I call her on the phone, she says "what?" Today my daughter had a haircut appoinment for prom, i assumed I was taking her since I've been doing most of the domestic stuff. I asked W if she was going too, she snips "I'm taking her, what are you doing? Why would you take her to the hairdresser?" I just walked away. She allowed me the priviledge of kissing her forehead before she left. The few little affectionate things she had done over the last couple of weeks have come to a screeching halt, nothing has happened between us that has caused a rift...so? NC??? Eating at my soul...

We're going on 4 months since dday Snuggle, should something be happening? Should she at least have made her mind up about what direction she wants to go? I don't know ANYTHING! All I know; she's still here
I feel like dookie
I have few options because we're here in England

I'm doing things on my own to feel good. I'm not huddled in the corner crying. But the fact still remains that I love her and it hurts like &^%$ that she is removed from me, emotionally, and physically. I can't leave, she won't, and I'm not sure if what I'm doing is even having any effect on our sitch at all. Treading water is what it feels like, sooner or later my arms and legs will give out and I'll drown. I'd rather just take a bullet to the head than suffer until my lungs fill with dirty water. (all a metaphor, don't even think about it). I want to take my kids and run away, let her have the freedom she seems to crave, her want for the release from the prison she seems to feel when she's with me.

But I'm not ready to risk a premature explosion. Afterall, we still talk of the future together. We're still on our way to Hawaii in August. I guess we'll just be "buddies" even though I'd never talk to my buddies the way she sometimes talks to me. Suck it up as they say, i made my bed so I should lay in it. I feel a little better, just ran 2.5 miles, unloaded some mental baggage, that's what this place is for right?

thanks for reading...

Unloading those bad feelings is exactly what this place is for. You are doing good a great job not letting your taker take over. Just keep letting her snippiness roll off your back.

The one thing I would change is how you keep taking her snippiness to mean something about you. Dino, it's not about you!! Earth to Dino, you are not the center of the universe LOL ... you know I am giving you a hard time about it because I care.

So here's a different way to see her snip about taking your daughter to the hairdressers ... maybe she feels bad that you have been doing so much of the parenting. Prom is a big deal and can be a really special bonding time for moms and daughters. Maybe she is scared she is going to miss out on an important moment in her child's life. Your daughter is growing up and only going to be home for a few more years. That's scary to a mom! So see how maybe it is not a jab directed at you at all? And maybe the kiss on the forehead isn't her "allowing you the privilege" but her feeling like dookie for snapping at you.

In the past, has there been a time in your life where you felt lost about where you were going and maybe scared about the future? Did it ever cause you to be crabby? And didn't you feel lousy about unfairly snapping at your loved ones? I really think that is what is going on here. The rift you feel isn't a judgment of you or your marriage, not even a little bit.

When you feel like running away, think about how much it would hurt your wife. I know it would. She is not craving freedom from you and the kids. It would shatter her if you did that. Ok, this was just a really long winded way for me to try and say maybe what would help you is working on developing your empathy for your wife. Stop assuming the worst and start giving her the benefit of the doubt. What do you think?

I hope you keep an eye on my posts Snug and don't ever cut me off. I appreciate your comments so much, you have no idea what an inspiration you've been to me and how much you've helped me over the last couple of months


You're so funny, it's hard to keep that "me" thing in perspective. I think this is where that defense mechanism thing I mentioned comes in. I've always been big on treating people right even when discontent is involved. I haven't always practiced what I preached but that's all in the distant past. I understand where my wife is emotionally, I just don't understand why it's so easy for her to speak to me in thoe tones.


This is also something she's mentioned to me. She's frustrated that she isn't in control of her life right now. With all the things she's dealing with, I have been doing much of the parenting and domestic stuff. She feels "out of touch" as she puts it. She tells me she never knows whats going on with the kids but I think her time at work is the reason for that. As for the "priviledge" she allows me, it's just another vent for my frustration of having no affection from her. It's still my biggest hurdle. I'm really lonely and NEED to touch her snuggle. I want so bad for her to FEEL for me again. I want to kiss her again, it's been over a year now and it hurts.


I do have empathy Snug, I do. I feel for everything she's going through, especially for her career. She saved me from having to go through the same thing when my A was expsed 5 yrs ago, so I empathize BIG TIME. I just feel like she needs a shock, something to wake her up to what's going on! I feel like this our chance to finally DO something and stop letting our marriage erode to the point of no return. I don't want to lose my love for her. I still cry everyday Snug, everyday. I'm afraid that one day I will wake up and the crying will be over, and so will our marriage, I don't want that to happen. I fear that she KNOWS what's going on but it's exactly what she wants. That she wants to reamin distant and that she WANTS us to survive only until the time is right for HER. Thats my biggest fear. My empathy is my biggest motivating factor in surviving all of this to this point. I believe she will see the light, I believe we can come out of this better, I hope she can get through everything she's dealing with for her sake and ours. I fear that all of this is just a facade. Like I mentioned before, "bread and water", a person can survive on bread and water for years, maybe a lifetime, but who wants that?

Thanks again Snuggle, you're a blessing

Well Snuggle, we finally did it...

We actually had a decent conversation about everything that's going on. About 3 hrs worth. I was in such a rut as you know, I just couldn't keep it inside anymore. I had to ask her how WE were doing. I thought it would escalate into another one of her venting rages but I think my calmness kept that away, I'm pretty proud of myself. It was very hard to start out without being emotional but after we talked, it got easier even though I did have a couple of small breakdowns, just a little crying when I talked about something really touchy. Kept it together after a few sniffs, you know how it goes.

She hasn't changed her position. Still thinks that maybe we may need a separation when we get back to the states in 6 months. I was hoping that maybe I've made some progress in the last 3 months but no dice. She says all the hurt I've caused is still fresh since her epiphany. I asked her again if she talks to OM still, she told me she spoke with him a couple of weeks ago. I'll never be ok with it but without a willingness to work on us, it would be useless anyway. She's a grown woman, she's not disillusioned in anyway, I know her enough to know that. She knows she made a HUGE mistake, is genuinely sorry for her weakness but just as genuinely decided about our relationship. I drove her away, I know it in my soul, I knew it before she ever left, i just made my own fantasy world that she would never leave me. We talked about some old times, we laughed, cried. I told her about everything that happened here the day she called and told me about the A, it hurt her real bad but I told her that I just wanted everything from here on out to be open between us. She just kept saying that it is too late, wishes I would've done all these things before when she was trying so hard to keep our marriage together. We were laughing at my sudden attempts to buy all these books and become the "marriage" expert. It was funny how she knew all about the MB techniques I've been subtly trying to spring on her. She said I could've saved some money and asked her, we laughed about that too. I never knew she had also been reading alot of stuff back when I had my A. I wish she would've done something more drastic, just goes to show you how inaction can have just as much impact. I told her she was the one to blame for me becoming such a monster, she agreed and we laughed, she treated me like a king Snugggle, I took advantage of her.

She's spent. She says she is numb right now, doesn't feel anything for anyone. Doesn't trust anyone, won't let her guard down for anything, just wants to sleep and move away from here (her words). She says she held so much in for so long trying to make sure me and the kids are happy, now she doesn't want to do anything but take care of herself. She even thinks that the kids would choose to be with me instead of her (says it hurts that the kids are grown enough not to need her anymore) I was sure to tell her that I made it a point to talk to the kids about her and how much pressure she was under at work. She says the kids are negative towards her because shes at work so much now, says they mentioned something about her being gone when they got up, and coming home at night for a couple of hours before going to bed. I feel so bad for her, I told her I talk to the kids all the time about what mom is going through, tried to comfort her about the kids but she is pretty hurt. She says she's hoping that retiring and moving away from all of this will have a positive effect on all of us but doesn't promise anything. She said she can live as we are for another 5 months for the kids sake. Says she's been living a lie for yrs now so another 5 months won't bother her. I told her I didn't know if I could do it, we couldn't find any other solution because of living here in England. I can't think of another way either. Other than me moving out but I don't want to be away from my kids. She just wants to be by herself, to be able to empty her mind and not have anymore stress. I don't think we can stay like this for 6 more months but I'm willing to try to stick it out. I'm pretty much done with expectations. i think my hopes are a dead end. We agreed to end on a good note, we made dinner and ate with the kids. We agreed on what I already knew had to happen. We have no chance until we restart our relationship. As of now, she isn't willing to invest any energy. She says that she could have a change of heart but isn't promising anything. The only bright light I saw was the answer she gave me for this question, since she said that she just wants to finally be happy, without feeling the pressure of control or being locked up by work, or me or the triggers of being here.. I asked her "would you rather be happy by yourself, or be happy with me?", she said she would rather be happy with me. She of course had to put her own stipulation on it by saying, "happy with you because I want to be with you, not because I'm faking it for any reason." I told her I didn't want her to ever sacrifice anything for me again, from now on, we do things for each other because we want to make each other happy and no other reason.

It's so sad that we seem to see the light on our relationship now that it may be too late. I honestly don't know if I'll be able to live under these conditions for 6 more months Snuggle, I just can't be this close to her and not have a relationship with her. I'll try but we'll see. I told her that I was worried that conditions like this may damage my love for her and I didn't want that. I just don't know. She said again that seeing me hurt makes her want to run away even more so we're between a rock and a hard place. I guess I really do have to cut her loose and see what happens. It just sucks that cutting her loose in our situation just means emotionally, not physically since I have to sleep in the same bed everynight. I admire her strength but wonder about her motives, why would you want to put yourself throught this, she says it's for the kids. She thinks that a separation when we get to the states may generate the feelings of "longing" that we can't get being together under these circumstances. That we may be able to start dating and fall in love again. I told her that I didn't buy into that idea. Talked about the will to want to be happy together and that we have to work at being in love, she said she agreed but also said she didn't want to do the work the way she's feeling right now. She's wants to be emotionally healthy again, that's what she really wants. Right now that doesn't include me.

So I guess my work here is done. I'm a much better person than I was 6 months ago, nowhere near healthy but better. I told her I'd be ok without her, that I didn't need to be married to her nor her to I (duh). She asked me jokingly if I'd have sex with her if we divorced (???) something we joked about back in the day. I told her I wasn't sure, she was surprised, said I always said I would. But I told her that even though I said I'd be ok without her, I told her that since the day I asked her to marry me, I never had any doubts about spending the rest of my life with her, and that if we divorced, I'd go on and be happy, maybe with someone else even. But I told her that if she came by one day and wanted to have sex with me, I may have to refuse because it would hurt too much. Because even if I had moved on and become happy with a new life, I would never get over losing her, ever. I may be happy again, but would never get over losing her, and left it at that. I meant every word of it, I hope she took it in. I don't feel any better Snuggle, I do but I don't. Time is the only thing I have now.

Thanks for all the help, I'll keep you up on events as they come but don't see much of anything happening in the near future. Thanks again...

Wow, you handled the conversation really well. I think you kind of already knew where your wife was at right now, but I would imagine it feels better to confirm it all with her rather than keep wondering and imagining all the possibilities. She sounds so burnt out and tired. Honestly I don't think she could choose to work on the marriage right now even if she wanted ... she doesn't sound like she's got any emotional energy left at all.

So what are your plans now? Can find a way to make the best of the next 5 months? This is only tangentially related, but I find myself thinking about people like Nelson Mandela or Aung San Suu Kyi and what they did/do to get themselves through being imprisoned with such dignity. Maybe someone like that could be the example you need right now.

Don't spend too much time regretting the past and kicking yourself. The future is not written ... who knows where you will be 6-12-24 months from now. There is no way to know really so now you can stop worrying about it and just wait for it to happen. It will be what it will be regardless. You just keep being the great man you are right this minute. That's all you truly can control anyway. If you keep doing that you'll have nothing to regret.

I hope you treat yourself good tonight.

Maybe this would be a good time to spend some effort envisioning how you want to spend the next 20 years. Consider this a turning point, a chance to reinvent yourself - with or without the spouse. Include her in the discussion, without recrimination. Work on possible futures for both of you, both together and apart. If you approach it like adults, she may start feeling safer with you and consider spending the 20 years with you.

I think you're absolutely right cat. Our discussion the other day was the first time I really told her I'd be ok without her, she even acknowledged that.

I think my biggest hurdle right now is how to deal with the next 5 months or so. Like I've said, the living situation here is locked. Both of our housing allowance goes to paying the rent. the only way to split is to have someone let us live with them for free. Neither of us has anyone close enough to do that with. Neither of us wants to be without the kids and the stress of living here for the kids will only be compounded if the parents split. I truly believe she is just avoiding the whole situation, she doesn't want to deal with it. I offer options, she chooses none. She just wants to stay the way we are, hoping that our move will cause some kind of devine solution to everything. The stress of moving a family across the world is enough without marital problems. She's going with me she says, why? Even if we split, she says she will follow me because of the kids, why? She thinks the kids will choose to stay with me, but she'll follow anyway, why? If you want your freedom from this marriage, why follow the source of your discontent, why? She has the chance to move somewhere, start over, be free and away from me, why stress us both out by following me? Is it some kind of vindictive way of torturing me? I know she could live right next door to me and not feel an ounce of empathy for my pain, not one iota. But why would she want to? I just don't get it? Whatever, I just want the pain to go away.

I don't know how to deal with the emotional stress of living with her under these conditions. I still love her, I didn't have any kind of blow to my psyche that all the sudden changed my feelings for her. I never lost any love for her even before any of this happened, she knows it, that's why I can't get over the fact that I think she's still in some kind of daze (all irrelevant). I need to survive these next 5 months without ending up hating her. Right now it's the only way I know that I can live in the same house but not have a married relationship. I know everyone here says the BS should not move out of the "marital" bed but I've already done it, she doesn't know it yet, I've slept downstairs the last two nights but blame it on falling asleep. I'm going to tell her my decision tonight, she won't care either way, we've talked about it before. It's too hard for me. I can't lie next to her and have nothing, can't do it. Not because I don't want to lie with her but because it hurts too much, I can't sleep with her back to me physically and emotionally. I know the end is not here yet and I don't want to lose my love for her. I don't fear anymore what may happen in the future, i only fear that this situation will cause me to hate her as a defense mechanism from which I may never be able to come back from, or cause irreparable harm because of it. My only concern right now is to survive until we leave here without ruining any chance of hope. I don't believe it's impossible, many have survived much longer than that under worse circumstances. By the time we leave here it will have been a year since her return. A year out of a lifetime is peanuts, but it's still a year. One of four for a highschooler.

I just want to get through each day. We go to Hawaii in August, I hope we're still "cordial" by then. I'd hate to spend 18 hrs traveling and 12 days in paradise with someone you hate and hates you back. Who knows, i may not go, i'll suck up the 1400 dollars. Wouldn't be fair to brother though, we'll see.

I had a great day today, first one in a week I haven't cried like a B$*^! I feel as if my heart hardened ever so slightly though after our talk. I hope it isn't a sign of things to come. I'm not the nicest person in the world to people I don't care for. I can feel Taker getting revved up, at least I know he's there now. I never recognized him before, just thought it was me, and I needed him. I won't be duped by letting him get carried away, I think it may be time for him to show face for awhile though. Nothing bad, just a little self preservation.

hanks for the words cat!

And cat

We had those discussions about possible futures apart on sunday. We talked about it like adults, like we were buddies having chat. Turned my stomach though. I can feel my detachment growing by the minute. She asking when I'm coming up to bed, I haven't told her yet, no b%$ls. So I'll hang out down here until I fall asleep. I actually sleep until the alarm with a little help from my doctor prescribed nocturnal regeneration supplement (sleeping pills). I feel good, need to find more workout time in my schedule, it feels good too. She'll find out sooner than later, i just ordered a futon sofa bed for the downstairs room. I'll have to tell her then, especially if she's here when they deliver it. Wonder how she's going to react, doesn't matter. She's happy with the way things are right? What does it matter where I sleep, she doesn't touch me in bed anyway, maybe she likes to hear me breath. Nah, she doesn;t hear anything, she's always out old by the time I come up. Unless the kids pop in and she;ll be wide awake in a second. If I try to kiss her good night, just a small smile and a grunt. So she won;t be missing anything, other than her husband lying next to her with a dagger sticking out of my left ventrical curled up in the fetal position trying not to accidently touch her and make her flinch away. Wow, that pill is making me type slow. And my scren looklikes it swimming around a bit. Have the time I go up there and she got all our covers wrapped around her so got to yank them off her and then I get more grunts. Being apart won't be so bad. A couple of young girls at the club on base told me I looked like "The Rock" (I was working patrol, don't get ideas). So i'll be ok. Gotta get back in the groove. Dust off my disco outfits and roll out. 6'2" 210lb atheletic half filipino looking for fun. I used to be a smooth operator back when I had more hair. DO women really go for the shaved head look nowadays? Got my bachelors degree now, I'll have retirement pay and a new start on life. DO blondes really have more fun? This will all be after we split you know. I'm not like that anymore. I'm a chnaged man, a good man, a awesome dad and pretty dang good cook. I ride a Harley and have tattoos all over, what do you think? I wonder if all of this will be censored, I didn;t curse!

Anyway cat, We talked about all kind of scenarios. Only one is satisfactory to me but what can I do. Where are they sending me, that is the question of the day. I'll have about a month left before I get my options, another month for them to decide who gets what. I've been a convicted sinner for years now, so you know my luck is going to suck, I'll get the coldest joint in the states. Kids won't want to go, they can haul a$$ to Arizona where we belong and I'll be stuck by myself in some cold a$$ place by myself. It would be nice to have place with a lake nearby so I can ride my new waverunner I bought before I knew i was coming to this s%$t hole.

These pills they gave me got me all looopy. I'm going to couch (bed). I can't wait for my futon, it looks so nice and comfy, the couch is a little short for my 74" and size 12 feet. The I can fold it up and read my books. It doesn't sound so bad does it?

ciao

{{{Dino}}}

You sound like such a nice person, I have high hopes for your future. Have faith. A lot can happen in 5 months; and when you start improving yourself and being ok with yourself, you're going to start looking a lot more attractive to her. (or a lot of other women; you certainly sound attractive! )

I just want to throw out one thing: living in the cold is very attractive to a LOT of people! Do NOT make the mistake (or let your kids hear you doing it) of assuming that your kids won't want to live in a cold climate. Hockey, skiing, sledding, snowmobiling, ice castles, white Christmas...need I say more?

Wow cat

I just read my post and I must have been under the influence BIG time. I never reacted like that with one of those sleeping pills. I was laughing as I was reading it on how I'm describing myself like I was on some dating site.

Anyway, we talked this morning. She asked why I was sleeping downstairs, I told her everything. I just don't get it. She's rubbing my head and has her arm around me while were talking, WTF! I just told her it was too hard for me and I just want to get through the next 5 months without hating her. She asked me why would I hate her, "we just grew apart", I told her that was a cop out statement. She just won't let go of the past, bottom line. She sticks with the statement that she won't be able to heal while we're still here. She hasn't forgiven herself for what she did. All kinds of stuff. I told her I wouldn't hate her, but I have to start protecting myself. I don't discount anything she tells me, but I don't want to hear it anymore. I've heard it all a thousand times already. She's still trying to justify to me why she's acting or feeling the way she does, it's not going to make me feel better about any of this so I wish she would save her breath. I told her I couldn't turn off my feelings for her no matter how I tried. Told her I understood that she could just stay in this situation and be ok. Again she starts with the "all these yrs did this to me, I didn't change overnight, I just hid it well". I told her I didn't buy it, she's still copping out. Noone could hide that well for that long, no way. Her time away made her weak so she fell into a big mistake and this is her way of justifying distancing herself. Unfortunately it may cost us our marriage. I'm starting to accept it, sucks but WTF.

We talked more about possibilities. I asked her why she wants to move with me, why shes making her plans around me. I told her not to follow me because it's convient for her, since she won't be established. I told her I'd even help her money-wise until she got on her feet wherever it is she wants to go. I had to fight off my taker a couple of times during the discussion. She continutes to say it's for the good of the children to stay together at least another 4 yrs. I told her it was unacceptable, I'm tired of all this "sacrifice" bs. I told her i never wanted her to ever sacrifice another thing at all for me, ever. She says we have to make sacrifices in a relationship, I pulled out my MB knowledge and said it's not sacrificing, it's doing things you want to do to make your spouse happy (good huh?). I'm just fed up finally with all the rearview gabble. I'm not looking back again unless it to remember good things. If she can't let go, then we're done.

She asked what we're going to tell the kids about me sleeping downstairs, i told her I already talked with the kids about us having problems. She got upset because I didn't consult her first, she didn't consult me about her A or our marriage problems right? I told her to tell them whatever she wanted to, they know where they stand with me. She asked what we'd tell the family if we split up, I told her I'd tell everyone the truth, about what I did back then and what she did. She got upset, "why do they need to know our business, we can tell them we grew apart", i told her again that was a cop out. I'm not willing to be dishonest anymore to anyone, especially our family. They wouldn't believe "grew apart" anyway. I agree we grew apart but I also believe we can gorw back together, she doesn't believe it. She still lives in la la land where people look at each other and it just "happens". Too bad, we could have something as special or better than we had. What a shame.
I still believe she's going to see the light, but I'm not banking on it. She's got alot to deal with and soon she's going to be dealing with it on her own. i'm running out of energy to take care of myself and her at the same time.

I still hope we go somewhere warm cat. We're from Arizona, lived in cali, Hawaii. So cold isn't our thing. We could have fun in a cold place but it would be nice to have a warm summer, or sun at least. England is just dreary. it's June for christ sakes and the forecast is rain and 50s all week, same as last week. If there was mountains or something we could find something to do, but there isn't anything here to do besides sightsee. I'm a doer. Even just getting out to sight see costs a arm and leg. 8 bucks a gallon for gas downtown, so driving isn't any cheaper. No snow here either, just wet, muddy cold. I don't even ride my Harley because I'm a fair weather rider. Riding is supposed to be fun. Wearing a parka and rain gear and not being able to see because your helmet is covered in muck isn't fun. My skin is so pale I look like I've been on chemo. I ain't about to go to tannig booth like most of the brits do. My kids poke fun at them and say they look orange, like Oompa Loompas.

Anyway, I struggle with what to do with the kids when we leave. I know we'll end up in Az when I retire. I'm planning retiring a year after we get back. The kids will be a junior and freshman. We talked about her moving to Az with the kids and setting up and i'd follow a yr later but I don't want to be away from the kids for a yr of their highschool. I'd rather have them with me and we move together a yr later to Az. Plus I don't want to give her the satisfaction of having her cake and having the kids too. She wants to be out on her own, she can be out on her own, alone like she wants. It eats at me that I could be the one on my own when she's the one who wants to bail on the marriage (and family, although she says family is important to her). I don't know what to do. I'm done being a martyr. it's going to be hard to not be sour towards her. Right before we finished this morning, she says she knows I'm going to start being salty towards her, i asked her what did she expect, that I was going to ump and down with joy? I told her I wouldn't be that way, we'll see. I closed with this, "I'm not giving up, if it takes us yrs to grow back and become happy again, I'm willing to do that. If we end up married for 50 yrs, a couple of yrs of [censored] won't mean much." She agreed. She doesn't convince me. She needs to feel some heat, she's been coasting on the love boat for a few months now. I'm done placating. If She wants a roommate, she's got one.

thanks cat!

Another thought

Maybe I'll just take my Harley, waverunner and plasma and take my a$$ to Hawaii. Always wanted to live there anyway. i don't need much, a place for a tv, a couch/bed and lots of sun. Sounds pretty good huh? I would like to wait until the kids get out on their own but if they want to live with mom, wtf. i'll get a myspace account and talk to them that way, their on it enough, probably talk to them more that way. Find me a surfer girlfriend and die tan and smiling.

Dino, are you still on those new pills?!

I know you said before that you have empathy for your wife, but I am just not seeing it. You want to be a good husband, but you are not offering any patience to give your wife time to heal and get her head back on straight. In fact you make the presumptive judgment that she should be at a point that she keeps telling you she is not at yet.

Do you think maybe you have a problem with not being in control?

Snuggle
I don't think anybody likes NOT being in control. So yes, I have a problem with it.

As far as presuming that she should be at ANY point right now would be wrong for me. I thought that I could MAYBE presume that she still wanted to be my WIFE after all of this but if I did that, I would be WRONG again.

I'm just trying to survive 5 months, thats all.

Snuggle

Don't get me wrong and forgive me if I sound a little sour, I'm not. I feel better than I have a long time. I think I've finally smartened up a bit and am expecting absolutely nothing from her, nada. Probably just on the up swing of this rollercoaster from H^%$. Not sleeping in the same bed has done me wonders. She seems to make some comment everyday about how it would be better for me to sleep upstairs, she even volunteered to sleep downstairs herself, thanks anyway. My futon will be here next thursday and I'll be all set. All the sudden I'm getting a hug here and there, thanks again. I'm happy about it, but am unwilling to attach meaning, I hate this feeling. I don't like sharing my home and kids with someone who isn't my wife. There is a piece of paper that says so, but she's not here right now. We're still getting along great.

As far as patience goes, I've still got plenty. I just choose to deal with it in a different way, no more boohooing. I knew I'd have to harden myself just a little, didn't want to, but have to. I'm not making any judgments of her, as a matter of fact, I don't expect her to do anything, and that's exactly what she's doing. I'm not treating her any different than I have been. I'm definitely not looking for anything from her. I'm not even hoping for anything anymore. Whatever comes, comes. Like I said, she's gonna have to decide something, someday, it's inevitable, we won't last like this. Ok, "I" won't last like this. I told her that even if it tooks yrs to make our marriage better, I was willing and I am. But our situation the way it is now will not make it possible. This living situation is a breeding ground for poison and hate. We'll see soon enough.

I hope you haven given up hope for me snuggle, I'm still doing fine and I'm not turning into an A^%hole. I'm a little aggravated, I admit. I just get so frustrated about this whole male/female relationship thing. Look at this; for the last 3-4 months, I've been nothing but nice and considerate and everything, she's been nothing but distant. For the last few days I've been a little aloof and maybe a little snippy, and I start sleeping downstairs, all the sudden she's all nice and talkative and hugging me and tells me she loves me after I kiss her goodnight? I'm so stinkin twisted I don't know what to do. Don't get me wrong, she ain't all over me by no means or even close, but the last couple of days have been different. All in my head probably.

Anyway, life is a roadtrip, you can look at where you've been, or you can look at where you're going. As you're busy switching between the two, the blurry things you see passing beside you are the todays. Notice how they only come into focus when you turn your head and stay with them? The only REAL way to see today is to stop and look. Something to think about.

Hi Dino! Don't worry, I haven't given up hope for you. I know this is a rough time for you and it is only natural that your emotions will be up and down.

I'm glad you are feeling better and not boohooing anymore. I never want you to boo hoo!! Those are the times when you need to detach and let go of expectations. If you balance that with having empathy for your wife, then you can be kind without being weak ... you can be unaffected by her behavior and still be supportive.

I think it's probably normal for her to react to your changes. Just be careful that you don't confuse her more than she already is. Personally, I think she does still love you, you have been part of her life for 18 years after all. But while she was the perfect wife for you, she wasn't being true to herself. If she's going to stay your wife, she will want to be a wife that you are happy with, but what that was in the past she knows she can't do, so how can she be true to herself and a good wife to you? That's what she is trying to figure out right now. Not a very simple question to answer. You don't think she really wants to keep things the way they are right now do you? Remember when your kids were little and how sometimes it would take them awhile to figure out how to do something, but you had to be patient and let them figure it out? I think that is the kind of patience you need to have ... no pressure, not huffing and puffing in the background implying "you dumb kid why don't you figure it out" and of course not taking over and doing it for them, just being there and perhaps offering a loving suggestion when appropriate.

Hope today is in focus and really beautiful for you

thanks Snuggle

Everything you say makes so much sense. I know she's having a hard time. I really feel for her because her job is taking a heavy toll on her. She had to work both days again this weekend. I'm doing everything I can to support her but I feel a little helpless in that arena. She's only got a couple of months left but to her it seems an eternity. It's affecting her health and I ask her to see someone but she's so stubborn, she tries to handle all of this on her own. She does a good job of venting to me after work and I'm glad she can unload some of it.

What you said about her wanting to be a good wife but remaining true to herself is right on spot I think. She's so afraid of things going back to the way they were that she's remaining closed off to me. I'm doing everything I can to show her she's safe, time can only tell.

Overall this weekend was ok. After work she came out and watched me play in a softball tournament. It was so good for me to she her out there. It reminded me of past times. Sports are a big thing for us and we used to watch each others events and hang out and have fun. I actually cried when she showed up but had to hide my tears. The weather was nice. She's so beautiful Snuggle, I miss her so much. I just don't know how to handle all of this, I'm so weak emotionally. I told her she was the hottest woman at the fields and I meant it. I don't know how to hold it together. I just miss her so much, I miss her touch, I miss her looking at me and telling me she loves me. Why did this have to happen? I just want someone to tell me everything will be ok. That my wife will love me again. Gosh I'm so pathetic.

How can I feel so depressed even though it's been almost 7 months since she dropped the bomb on me? Why do I love her so much? How did I attach so much of my well being on one person? I hate feeling like this but I don't know what to do. It comes and goes, today was a bad morning, I don't know why. It just hits me like a truck some times. I can't see it coming. I cried in my truck and all the way to work. Luckily it's allergy season so I have an excuse when everyone sees my red eyes. I'm 42 yrs old for christ sakes and I'm blubbering like a teenager. It seems like the only way for me to be ok is when I keep myself kind of pissy at the whole situation. Anyway, I just have to wait for this spell to blow over I guess. Good days bad days right?

Have an appt with the "mental health" doctor in about an hour. I've seen her about 4 times now but nothing seems to be helping me. I'm not even sure about what to talk about today, I feel like [censored]. I have alot of homework to do and I can't get myself focused. I miss her so much. I miss her so much.

Almost 2 weeks of sleeping on the couch now. My futon gets delivered on thursday. She tells me to sleep in the bed so my back doesn't get so sore but I just can't. I asked her the other morning if she really understood why I'm sleeping down there and she said yes. It's killing me both wasy but sleeping away from her seems to be better for me. I hope it's not causing her any stress because that's not what I want. It doesn't seem to be.

Anyway, thanks again. I hope I get something out of this next appt. I need for the day to take a positve turn. It's draining my soul.

ciao

Meeting with the doc went well I guess. I'm not sure exactly what I'm supposed to get out of these visits. I guess it's just an outlet for talk which is good since I don't have any real confidants here. I'm trying to figure out what exactly she's supposed to do to help me, she's getting paid well I assume. I don't get to pick my doc so I don't have much choice. I guess you really have to be in a bad spot to get some Happy pills. What do anti-depressants do anyway? Do they really help you when you're down? If so, I sure would like about a 5 month supply. I figure that's about how long I need to survive. Anyway, feeling a little better now. Wife called asking for some info, she sounded in a good mood, I love to hear her voice. Every minute we spend like this is another minute we can't get back, you know? I wish she could see how much better things could be. Her job situation would be alot easier to tolerate if things were happy at home, IMHO. I could help if she'd let me in.

more to come...

Hi Dino!

Hope that today was a good one for you. It is really a big thing that your wife can come home and unload to you about what is going on at work. That is huge. You may not feel like you are helping much, but you are. Just your presence is a big deal. I am sure that there is nothing that could comfort her more than just you listening. Please give yourself more credit on that

Patience my friend ...

Thanks for the vote of confidence Snuggle

Yesterday wasn't so good for me, just a bad day personally. Nothing bad between the two of us, just a weak day emotionally. She came home late again on the verge of tears. I feel so helpless. I want so bad to hand out a couple of beatings to the people at her work that are making her feel so bad. My protective instincts are really at full swing right now but there is nothing I can do.

I'm hoping this week will do her some good. She's taking some transition classes till the end of the week so she won't be going to the office hopefully. I'm quite sure they'll be calling her to come save them from some emergency that they created because of their incompetence. She's going to end up doing 8 hrs of training and then have to go work office issues for another 4hrs.

Anyway, everyday is a struggle. I'm still not sure if I can keep up this thing for another 5 months, it's too demanding on the soul. If she has really been feeling this way for the last couple of years, I have to give her credit for being so strong, theres no way I can see that happening. Saving a marriage is one thing but killing your soul and living with someone just for the sake of it is just too much. How can this be fulfilling in anyway. If this is really how she's been feeling, I can understand how she would want to get out, I just wished she would've been more honest with me, we could've made things better or saved each other some heartache.

I went upstairs to the bedroom in the middle of the night last night because it was too hot downstairs (no AC in England). Didn't sleep well at all. As soon as I laid down I started having all those thought again, thats why I moved out of the bed in the first place. I won't do it again. If she doesn't invite me back into our bed, I'll never sleep in it again. My futon get here in 2 days, my back is killing me, I can't wait. Should be having lunch with her today, I hope everything goes well, no doubt it will, just like two "friends" grabbing a bite

Oh well, woudda, couldda, shouldda, eh? You can't change the past ... but maybe sometimes you should change how you think about it. Don't second guess so much. You've really been seeing things in that half-empty light lately. I give you big kudos for recognizing how painful it must have been on your wife emotionally in the past. How about also recognizing that the bond between you two must be strong for her to have stuck with you anyway, huh? Maybe that was what was fulfilling to her. Don't be so black and white ... life is gray ... there's good and bad ... it's not all one or the other.

I must be starting to sound like a broken record to you ... LOL!

Have a great lunch (what's on the menu? Ooh, I'm feeling a little peckish ). Don't knock the friends things!! What I love most about my husband is that I can call him my best friend and it is true. Nobody knows me better, nobody else is more aware of my faults and yet still loves me. It's the starting point for our marriage. If you still have your starting point, I think you still have hope.

Ya ya, I know. I hate that half-empty cup. It's like that sometimes though, it's the roller coaster we always talk about. Good days, bad days. I didn't even realize I was making references to the past, I said I wouldn't do that didn't I? I guess I'll need some time to be on the more positive side of the coin. I've been feeling so bad over the last few months that feeling good is kind of liek a new feeling for me. I hope she's having soem good moments herself, I hope I'm somewhere in there too.

I like having those talks with her. I like to be aware of whats around me and how she's thinking but at the same time, i don't want to press her, you know?

We're doing good Snuggle, thanks for reminding me about that. I guess I'm just impatient about things. I told her about my optimism and she wondered why I would be so optimistic. I just told her that I had this overwhelming feeling that we could have things so much better. That in the past I knew we had problems but had no ideas why or how to fix them. I told her my "research" over the last few months has brought all of our problems in to the light and I said I knew exactly what I did wrong and I know exactly how to prevent them from happening again, so theres where my optimism comes from. I hope she absorbs some of the things I tell her. Sometimes I can see this little glint of light in her eyes, like she sees something but isn't quite sure what to make of it. When I told her I was willing to work years to get our marriage back and that a couple of years out of a 50yr marriage is nothing, I saw her thinking. She was nodding her head and wondering about what I said. I hope she realizes I'm being genuine.

I do want her as my friend, i sure could use one right now. All we have is each other at the moment (at least i hope, I'm still unsure if she's contacing him via cell). But thats the least of my worries, if she values a phone realtionship over our marriage than thats her choice. I want her to see me as the friend I used to be, I failed miserably at that the last few yrs. I'm trying to rebuild that trust, it will take awhile but I think I'm doing pretty well.

Thanks again Snuggle, I can definitely use that cold slap to the head once in awhile. She just called me for lunch, I'm smiling. I miss her so bad.

i'm such a [censored], I haven't even asked you how things are going with the knucklehead at your office, is he still being a bonehead?

One of the things that scares me the most is that I feel as if I don't know her anymore. We did used to be very good friends but somewhere along the line we lost that. I do think we're friends and I feel as if we're working towards that again, slowly but it seems to be getting better. My fear that I don't know her is overwhelming. It's just that all the events of the past year and all of the things she's told me about how she's felt all of these yrs, how she feels now, they all reenforce how little I really knew and it's scary. My reality of the past is not what is here now.

Even when times were rough, she never treated me the way she does now. She seems so "hard" now, sometimes can be downright rude. She does tell me that alot of whats happened to her at work and the stress of her job has made her change her attitude to be alot more rough in her personality. But she seems to carry some of that home with her now.

Lunch was good yesterday. She looked so beautiful, she didn't have to wear her uniform so she was in business attire. I guess I could possibly be looking this all wrong. We are getting along better, but I seem to miss her even more the closer we get. It doesn't make sense to me but not alot does right now. She told me the other night that I didn't need to sleep downstairs, I told her I knew that. Like I said, I did go upstairs the other night but it made me feel like [censored] and I didn't sleep for crap so it's back downstairs for me.

It's so hard to keep up this plutonic relationship with my wife of 18 yrs. It's hard to wrap my mind around it. We were talking about after retirement stuff last night. Talking about money and whatnot, she says she can't count on my money for her well being, like were going to be separated. Then in the next breath, she says that we are going to have a house payment to worry about also, "we" as in both of us together. I know I shouldn't dissect such trivial info but it's really hard not to. Kind of goes along the lines of the Freudian theory.

Anyway, lunch with her again today. looking forward to it. My allergies are killing me this morning, too bad I haven't been crying because my eyes look like they have.

Hi Dino!

How was lunch? You know I bet your wife is feeling somewhat similar to you about getting her hopes up right now. You're scared to hope she will choose to stay married and she's probably scared to hope you've changed for real. And just like you, she wants it to be true but is scared to let herself want it. Only time can convince you it's safe to hope again.

You're such a sweetheart. Thanks for asking about my work thing. It got ugly for a week or so when the guy I was having problems with tried to make trouble by complaining to higher ups. But I'm like a Boy Scout ... LOL... always prepared I had all my documentation ready to go (the contradicting emails were priceless!) so it was easy for everyone to see that this guy was full of it and write him off. This last week I haven't heard a peep, so I am hoping he's gotten the message and taken his marbles to play elsewhere.

You know what,

I really envy her ability to handle all of this stuff. She really know show to handle pressure. I don't know of anyone who could take was she takes from her job and still be halfway sane. It must be getting bad though because she actually mentioned talking to someone about the effects on her health. Of course she came right back and said she didn't know what good it would do to talk to someone, she said talking to someone wouldn't change her work environment any, so I left it at that.

In all of this, you would never think she was having problems in the marriage department though. I guess all these years she honed that skill of pretending down to a science. I was at her office the other week and she was introducing me to everyone smiling "this is my husband Dino". Almost like she as proud to do so. It's funny, the way she acts used to be a reenforcer for me about how good things were, now it just confuses the crap out of me. I guess thats why I'm so jealous of her about that. Even at home she acts as if everything is "status quo" while I'm struggling to look like the happy husband. I wish I could master that way of controlling my emotions and actions. The only way you would be able to tell anything was wrong at our house is the utter lack of physcial contact and of course my sleeping downstairs. Even the kids seem used to it already, they actually come down to kiss me good night, it just crushes my heart for them to have to see all of this. They only know were having trouble, no specifics.

I'm glad things have shaken out at work for you. Maybe he'll find someting better to do with all that useless energy.

Going to have lunch with wife again today. We used to do lunch all the time before she got the job from H311. I always feel so needy when I know I'm about to see her. It consumes my thoughts, you know? Sometimes it keeps me from doing things and I know it's not healthy. Like I said, I just miss her soooo bad. Is it natural to feel a little awkward when we're alone together? I always feel unsure about how to act, kind of like a teenager out on a date. I try to act natural but that would involve kissing and touching her or making little comments that may be inappropriate right now. Gosh, I feel like I look like such a fool when I'm around her. I've got a serious self esteem issue, but it's only around her, is that natural also? I'm starting to ramble a bit.

Off to lunch, I'm feeling a little rumbling in the gut.

Thanks Snuggle

Wow, lunch together 2 days in a row! That seems like a good thing. I bet it is a nice lift to her day to see you too.

I do think it seems normal to feel awkward and to overthink things a bit after what has happened. Finding out about an affair is just about the biggest shakeup you can have in a marriage. You'll find your feet again eventually. I'm sure you don't seem at all foolish or silly to anyone else. You're just in your head about it is all. Like when I get up to speak in front of a big group, I always feel nervous and like I'm doing a million things wrong, but when I see video playback later, I look just fine. Nobody could tell.

You are really doing a great job at handling all this. You both are. Your kids are lucky to have you two. A lot of adults would not be so strong in the same situation.

I'd like to think she wants to see me too Snuggle. I have alot of work to do in choosing to have healthy thinking patterns. I'm not doing so well in that arena so any help you have for me would be much appreciated.

We're having lunch again today. I see it as a good thing although we're having to do some business stuff also. I love spending my time with her, I do. I need to work on the cup half-full thing. My feelings of loneliness and abandonment seem to rule over me. I'm working on moving from the pessimism to the optimism side but I have trouble seeing the brighter side of things. When I write them down it seems so clear but physical evidence seems to point the other direction. I don't want to ruin things. I just can't seem to shake the rejection. More and more I'm seeing affection as my most important emotional need and she is unwilling to fill that need right now.

I may be mistaken Snuggle, but from my perspective, her A is the last of our problems right now. I think we've both come to realize that it was only a byproduct of something that had gone sour already. Not that I'm discounting it and we will have to deal with it some time. But for now, just getting to a point that we are both on the same page for saving our marriage is the first priority. Unfortunately, we're not at the same crossroad quite yet. She's still dealing with her own issues and I believe our marriage is down the line a bit. Our marriage is my first priroty and that's whats causing all the stress from my standpoint. I'm trying not to let anything spoil my love for her. I think that if I can weather the storm, we may have a chance but I'm really having a hard time.

I'm still on the prowl for something that will change my outlook. I know it's all inside but I still haven't found my magic niche yet. I'm still trying, things are going well I suppose but I can't seem to allow myself to enjoy the little things. Day by day.

Thanks again Snuggle, you've been a lighthouse in a terrible storm for me.

You're a sweetheart Dino. I've got the easy job of just being here to listen. You're the one doing all the heavy lifting.

Just keep practicing thinking positive and eventually it will start to stick. It takes awhile to build a new habit. Like when I rearranged my kitchen, it took some time before I stopped going to where the mugs used to be instead of to their new location ... and I moved them there! LOL! I know you can do it if you keep at it.

Don't think of not getting your need for affection filled as rejection. It's not about you. It's about her and her inability to give affection right now because of all the stress from work and disappointment in herself for her screw ups. One way to look at it is if instead of affection you needed money but your wife didn't have any money, you couldn't really be upset with her for not giving you money since she didn't have it to give in the first place. Maybe she's giving you all she has with the lunches and the pats and the occasional hugs and kisses. From her perspective maybe she's giving you all she has to give.

Unfortunately I think you may be right, she IS giving all she can give. I feel as if it's all she WANTS to give. I know, I know, it's the negative way of thinking about it but I just think I know her well enough to tell the difference. Then again, I could be wrong about that too since I've been wrong about alot of things lately.

I'm trying Snuggle, I really am. I do really well when I'm around her, it's when I'm by myself that I'm a wreck. I can deal with everything but just can't bear the thought of losing her. Is what I'm feeling normal for being almost 4 months after dday and 7 months since the ILBINILWY? When I write it down it seems like it isn't a very long time but to me it seems like eternity. I guess the last 7 months coupled with the 6 months she was gone makes it over a year since I've had a wife.

Another day down. I would like to report progress but I don't know what constitutes progress. Is still being together progress? In our case it's just a "living" condition right now. No REAL progress within myself lately. I seem to slip back into the "woe is me" mindset alot. Our family is everything to me, our family isn't complete without her. I'm not complete without her.

Why do I care so much? She acts so selfish nowadays, even rude to a point. Is she still trying to justify herself? Is she using this as a shield from her guilt? She's never ever been selfish. Is she trying to making up for all her so called "sacrificing"? I emphathize with her so much. I know she's scared, I know she's confused. I knew this was going to be hard work but I never realized how hard. I'm going to support her all the way out the door if that's where she ends up going. I hope she realizes how much she is loved and missed and needed by me and our family. We could be so happy again.

Dino,

Are you still verifying NC is still in place?

LA

Can't confirm NC. She says there is NC. I'm between a rock and a hard place. My controlling behavior of the past is a major LB for her. If I ask her about NC, I cut my own throat. She hasn't committed to anything yet so she doesn't care either way. What can I do? I have 5 months to go here. Once we get back to the states, I'll have more options as will she. She'll have to make a choice, I've made very clear my conditions for recovering our marriage, I've told her that NC is the most important condition and why I need it (we need it). If she chooses a telephone relationship over our marriage, she can have it.

Hey Dino! Hope your weekend is going well. I've got a busy one and will be working both days with an alumni event on Saturday and graduation on Sunday. I'll have to treat myself to some early days off next week ...

So, you think you know your wife well enough to say that she is only giving you the minimum because that is what she WANTS to give? May I point out that you had no idea she was unhappy with you for years? I do believe you know her habits well, but I suspect you have a lot to learn about her true emotions and motivators. When you find yourself making assumptions about why she does things, stop yourself because so far you've been way off!

I do think it's pretty normal to still feel a lot of emotional pain after just 4 months. It seems like forever to you I know, but that's just pain distorting your sense of time. In reality it is not that long. It's not even a whole semester in college!

Definitely being together is progress. The more time you are together, the stronger the base you build. Every day you are kind and loving to her is progress. Maybe you can't see yet, but remember that you are adding stones to that pond ... one day that pile will get big enough to see from under the water.

Maybe you yourself are like that pond too. You don't think you see any real progress only because to you progress is that you stop having sad feelings. That's not progress, that's the whole end result! Progress is getting better at catching yourself and saying, "Dino, stop your bellyaching, it's not the end of the world." If you're recognizing it, you're making progress.

Anyway, I hope your wife realizes too how much she is loved by you. I think she will. She seems like a pretty smart woman. She's a little lost now, but she doesn't seem like the type to stay that way.

Snuggle,

you know I printed out that little saying about the pebbles and the pond you sent and laminated it and keep it in my wallet. I take it out and read it once in awhile, I've got some other things in there for inspiration.

I realize I don't know her as well as I thought, that in itself makes me sad. I guess I'm still not past the "mourning" period yet. I thought I was but it seems so fresh to me everyday. I'm working hard to get past all this depression but it is slow going. As far recognizing it, it's pretty blatant to me. I'm still on the lookout for my "magic" relief button. Remember that meditation thing we talked about? Not quite there yet. I had a panic moment when I got home from work yesterday. Broke down big time, I was alone, on the computer and found some pics of her deployment to the desert, nothing bad or with OM, just triggers. She looked so happy while in all those pics, all without me. I just broke down.

Had a good night though. We went out to dinner while kids were with friends. We had fun, walked around the village for a few minutes. Picked up the kids and came home. Sat together on the sofa and watched tv. We're like this pretty much as the time though, just not intimate. I love being with her. I've got to work on not being so needy though. She consumes my thoughts Snuggle, every minute, everyday. I'm doing the things for myself but can't break free of the neediness. All I think about is spending time with her, no matter how trivial, I just want to be around her. I do a good job of hiding it but eats at me. I have a hard time concentrating at work, doing my homework, everything.

I got my futon yesterday so finally got a decent nights sleep. She got up early this morning to go run and she came down to pat my head before she left. She asked me why I looked depressed? I had just oppened my eyes, could I look depressed that early in the AM? I do my best so that she never sees me down, I know it's not in my best interest or ours.

She seems to be doing good, her week of class away from the job did her good. She did get calls every evening asking for her help and getting her all stressed out. It's saturday morning right now and her boss already called about some kind of emergency. We let the answering machine answer all calls now, we never used to do that. She hides her emotion very well. I hope she's not feeling as bad I as do. Is it wrong for me to want her to be as sad about our marriage as I am?

We talk all the time about our finances for after retirement and stuff like that. I mentioned to her that we need to get her debt free so that she can afford to have her own place. She said "what do you mean? I'm not even thinking about that right now" I guess that's a good sign. One of the things that does bother me though is how she is always making comments about "my money, your money". If I pay for something, she'll say "I'll pay you back" or "let's split this bill", stuff like that. I hope she's not thinking that her retirement and move to the states is going to be some kind of magic moment of stress relief for her. Moves are always very stressful and pile her retirement on top of that and trying to find a job and everything else, it's going to be rough. At least I know that her finally being free from that dungeon she works in will be a big relief for her. I just hope it's enough to help her think clearly about us. We're going to need all the help we can get. I hope things work out. We'll see.

Have good weekend Snuggle, I'm going to make some breakfast and gather up a few pebbles to throw into the pond today.
Thanks again

Bad day today, not even a fathers day card snuggle.

I'm not doing well. I even wrote her a little thank you note for helping me be the father I am. She mentioned it in the car when we were driving and it ended up in a bad discussion and going home. We talked again and it didn't go well. No bad stuff just more reinforcement of how much she doesn't love me (she said so) and how she doesn't want to go on like this but we should stay living together for the kids until we leave here. I'm just rotting inside.

I foolishly mentioned the NC thing and that set her off about her being smothered and my history of that and how she doesn't want to live like that anymore. She just hates me Snuggle. She said that she hasn't spoke to him in weeks and when she does it's only for the legal stuff. She said she could stop talking to him and it wouldn't do me a bit of good, she still wouldn't be in love with me. She's on an island and wants to be there by herself. She told me to live my life. I think I'm finished. I don't know what to do, it's like day one all over again, I can't stop crying. She said she'd move out and I told her I didn't want her to. I'm so weak, What am I supposed to do? I don't have anyone to talk to, I have no where to go. I make her feel like crap, I feel like crap, maybe we should call it quits. I'm so afraid of losing her, I haven't made any progress at all like I thought, it was all bull. SHe's so angry, I don't recognize her, she's not the person I know. My wife would never be so uncaring, so harsh, so hurtful. But she's my baby, I'm so lost without her...

how do I last 5 more months without ruining the slim chance we have? After all the hurtful things she said, she said for me to quit acting stupid and see what happens, but nothings happening. I thought there may be some ever so slight changes but after talking her, nothings changed, why would the next few months be any different? If she's not trying to change anything or decide either way, what is there to wait and see? I'm so lost!!! I just want to go to sleep, for a long long time. I love my kids.

(((dino)))

Please find some sort of counselor where you are. There has to be someone you can go to, to talk to about this.

Dino,

I've been reading your thread. I'm not all the way through it, yet. I'm beginning my post because I keep thinking of things to address.

First, on the NC...I'm hearing you say you have no way to trust but verify. That doesn't play in my book. She has a cellphone...you check it in front of her for contact. You do this FOR your marriage. You both have a high EN for O&H. This is acting for O&H, see? Each time you check, you're standing for your marriage, acknowledging her emotions, her weaknesses, her quandry, if you will...and you're ascertaining the truth separate from her truth.

Breaks apart the facts from her stuff.

See, she made a promise to you to tell you immediately of each contact. That's transparency. She has broken that promise to herself, to you and your marriage again and again. You want to be of REAL support to her? Then help her fight for your marriage.

Then the feelings your both so fixated on will come back.

Each time there is contact, the recovery clock starts over. It really does. She is not in withdrawal...can't get to that stage until there is NC for real, for a long time.

You had the best way to ascertain NC...through the military. There was a NC order in place...and you didn't report all the contact. You didn't call OMW each time there was a call. Can feel like you're protecting your marriage...instead of sinking it.

You've read As are like addictions. You even experienced it a bit with your A...because you still made contact twice afterwards. Even though you KNEW each time, might be the last choice you made in your marriage.

You didn't get to the bottom of your reasons for your A. That in itself is what this whole power struggle with your WW right now is about, IMO. See, what you essentially told her five years ago was that it didn't mean anything...she was meeting your ENs just fine...so you were essentially throwing your family away for absolutely no reason. You wiped out her existence...her significance...because you chose not to get to the bottom of why you did it.

I think because you didn't see your own wayward fog you are lost in hers. You didn't require of yourself so you are not requiring of her...to unravel every step, justification, excuse it took in your own mind to do what you did.

Only thing we have as human beings to amend the past is to amend in the present. Means you own what you did, why you did it, and why and how you won't do it again. The how is important...acting transparently, not talking with members of the opposite sex intimately; in your case, heavy emphasis on physical connection...your A was about ENs...just not the one you think it was...and your two other contacts afterward are significant, too.

When WW speaks, I don't hear you listening and repeating; I don't hear you handing her her words back to confirm or clarify. She doesn't believe you will ever get over her A...because she didn't get through yours. You knew that right off the back...you are very O&H here...and I hear you choosing to be that way in conflict, not in comfort. You can do both.

Your children know your WW did something horrendous. They may even know what--yet without you both sitting down with your 14 and 16-year-old and being O&H, they get to spin in the wind and learn to avoid unnecessary trouble, even while that choice takes down their whole world.

Could this be what you and your WW experienced as children? Go around, not through, together? Just a guess and it comes from my own filter, too. You don't burden them with information...the tremendous fear, anger and guilt they feel comes from you guys.

Like Cat said...your WW is going to feel pressured, miserable, fearful and UNCOMFORTABLE around you. You represent your marriage because she isn't any longer. Not for who you are, for what you represent. Stand for your marriage, anyway. Uncomfortable is a signal we aren't addressing what we really want...signals we're in fantasy, not in reality. There's no acceptance in uncomfortable.

I think you really want her to be the bad guy here...you put your responsibilities onto her...her lack of affection, her words, her actions...that's where your focus is on...turn it toward you. See where you didn't really forgive yourself for your A, because you didn't seek redemption, understanding, or change your marital boundaries. Your WW had male friends...and that was okay with you...just her thing...not healthy at all...she got her ENs met by them in place of you. She's created a whole lot of drama in herself...swirled from it...so she wouldn't want female friends, who are a closer reflection of who she is and what she does.

You can still put into place healthy personal and marital boundaries. No friends of the opposite sex except for friends who are couples. Friends of your marriage. You already know well you cannot control others...you can control knowing the truth. You have ways and obligations. Take them. Do them.

Stop defining bad and good discussions. Choose to see any discussion as more information than you had before. Same for bad days and good days...they aren't roadmarkers...you're making them something they are not. We connect through conflict and through happiness. We just do. Both are essential.

As you nailed, everything in moderation. You focus on your listening, stop DJing your marriage and share your stuff. On page five you have two posts from 5/17 which are essential knowledge for your WW. Re-read them and see if you've really communicated your stuff well to her directly.

Healthy stuff you can do...check her phone, check the bill (and request from the same dept that has the NC order in for ways to ensure NC); schedule relationship talks once a week for 20 minutes...same date and time...to the best of your ability. Get those 20 hours of crisis-level UA time together no matter what...play together recreationally...go for walks...there's a whole lot of talking that's not R-related to talk about...sharing your stuff (your thoughts, perceptions, beliefs, feelings and perspective) and listening/repeating hers.

Demand of your counselor for healthy intimacy exercises...for communication (do them twice a week for a total of one hour...it can count towards your UA time); physical intimacy...where you do non-sexual touch exercises; work intimacy--share from your day for no more than ten minutes each something about your work; recreational intimacy...can include aesthetic, creative, emotional and intellectual intimacy. All these actions are commitment intimacy...and you've been in crisis intimacy since the beginning of the year.

Get to know reality from fantasy...if you find yourself wishful, know that's a signal you aren't in reality right then.

You are not foolish for talking about how important NC is...get that straight in your head. Your marriage may well end because of your conflict avoidance...which robs love bank deposits because it's the real LB...it's not O&H, is it?

She sets herself back to being in the A with each contact. Which prohibits her from having real loving feelings for you. HELP HER. If this were heroin, would you be avoiding talking about, checking up independently, trying to cut off her supply, or at least, stating you KNEW she was still shooting up?

Because she is...and it's not all on you...she has her part. You have the clarity right now...she doesn't. You are her husband, her partner, her real love. Bring reality for yourself, for her and your marriage. She has real power of choice...and each time she chooses, underscore you know she knows that she is attacking your marriage.

We also have the highest need for EN when we aren't meeting it in ourselves, or our half of the marriage...and when our partner isn't.

Consider depression as anger turned inward. I believe you already know what I'm saying here. You know it, fight it, don't want it to be this way. It is this way, right now. Not forever. Each day we are new again...because we can make different choices. You have no idea, Dino, how incredibly strong, true and courageous you really are...experience this in yourself and be radically honest.

You are not weak. You make choices you know are harming your marriage, getting to recovery. Stop making those choices.

You do NOT make her feel like crap. She feels like crap. RESPECT her stuff as hers...our emotions come from WITHIN, Dino. Did you read Surviving An Affair? Have you read Torn Asunder? You nailed you being codependent right now...stop and read "Codependent No More" even though it sounds like a temporary, understandable condition from infidelity crisis. Get to know why the affection is so important...hyper important right now...because it sounds to me like you want desperately for your WW to choose you.

Share that. Share what you find and forget how it makes you look. Act O&H and you will experience reality...confirm, "I hear you feel like crap right now." That's reality.

When you guys get through the mess, the healing, the repeated harming...then you'll get to where you do make one another happy...because of the skills you acquire right now...gotta go back to raw basics and rebuild.

Know that you fear her anger...and poke around inside yourself and find out if you fear your own. Anger is a signal, not a condition. Signals us that someone is crossing our boundaries--and it's usually us. I think you feel anger when you cross your boundary of respect...when you lie by omission about your stuff...when you put it away. And I think that's what you've seen again and again in people coping with infidelity...putting it away, out of sight, out of mind...and you know that's why you are where you are today, right now. Doesn't GO away when you put it away--still affects everything.

You don't deserve her infidelity anymore than she did yours. She HURT THIS MUCH...SHE SWIRLED AND FELT WEAK, WRONG, DONE WRONG and powerless...she experienced what you are experiencing--TALK ABOUT IT. You stopped contact. She hasn't. I think she had an exit affair from her own resentment and pain.

She's not exiting. She's right there.

Up to you to be clear on the truth...she cannot contact OM for any reason...legal or otherwise. Report her. Do what is necessary to bring reality--it's the only thing to break the stranglehold she has on fantasy.

You know you don't call it quits based on feeling like crap. You know why? Because that's what you've been fighting her for all this time...to NOT make her choices of action based on feelings. Feelings come back...not until you stop blocking them through lies, guilt, deception and shame, though.

You haven't made any progress like you thought? Turn that question into yourself, make it about you. Only you can gauge your own progress...base it on what you're doing you promised not to, and what you aren't doing you promised yourself to do.

Getting your own lines clear--you read here, study and have learned how to fight infidelity, recover from it and thrive in your marriage...or thrive without it. Act from those beliefs.

Your chance at a thriving marriage remains the same as it always was...up to you, right here and now...if you will stop doing what you said you knew was dumb...doing the same stuff and expecting different results.

When you hurt, state it, "I feel a lot of pain right now." Tag on the right now...it's honest. Do the same for all your emotions...did you tell her how your heart soared before you left for your training? Did you tell her you KNOW you guys can work all the way through this together? That you are half of the transparency...you've got your job to do...and she's got her's?

Have you read RockSolid's thread in Recovery? Please do and let me know what resonates or doesn't inside you, 'k?

Inform OMW...just as you wish she'd have informed you of each contact. Did your A damage another marriage? Is your WW holding a double-guilt load because she not only attacked your marriage, but also another one?

The damage she fears to her children, she did to their children...same stuff, doubled. That's a lot to share and work through...to own and amend...to find redemption for...even if she could convince herself it was okay to do so to her innocent children, because you deserved it; there really isn't a way to justify doing it to OMW's family, is there?

Please stop looking at "nothing changes" because your A changed everything...so does hers...and each day, she's new, different, because of the choices she makes. When you get the signal nothing is changing, look at your choices. That's where you have real power and limits.

You can do this...you can stop focusing over there, in her stuff, and listen to her stuff...repeat and hand back. Share your own. Know reality (NC) and act from it.

Until NC is really in place and verified, you won't see your real W again. Don't let that happen, 'k? Your half...your part.

You're not alone...you have yourself, us and others you can talk to...your family, her family...ask for others to help you stand for your marriage...and let the outcome go.

LA

{{{{{{{{{{{{Dino}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

Chin up. You don't need a card to know you are an awesome dad. You have been dad AND mom to your kids over the past 12-18 months many times. I know you know this.

This was about forcing a sign that you're making progress. But that zen principle applies ... the harder you try to grasp, the less you can hold. Think about water again, you can't grab at it, you have to cup your hands to hold on to it. Her emotions toward you are not fixed. They vary, day by day, hour by hour. Just like yours. Sometimes you feel good like you would do anything to support your wife and walk from heck and back for her. Other times you feel like you've had it and you're ready to let her walk out the door. What she says now is not necessarily what she will feel later. You have to step back and look at the big picture. Your wife doesn't even know what the big picture is yet, so how can you? Now is the time to observe and plan, but not to react. If you were in the field, you wouldn't necessarily shoot at everything you came across that might or might not be an enemy, right? You should be in scout mode. You have to have discipline. We don't want you or your wife to get taken out with friendly fire, so just observe and catalog your observations. Come here and we can analyze the data and talk and decide if there is danger or not. No more knee-jerk reactions.

I don't care what anybody else says. Don't bring up the no contact again. It is too closely connected to your wife's fears about the kind of husband you were in the past. I'm sure I'm in the minority here, but if I were you, I would apologize for bringing it up and tell her that the last thing you want is to keep being that guy who smothered her. Tell her that you're working on changing those things but you're human and not perfect and that you hope she will get to a place where she will give the improved you a chance. Note, no need for her to answer yes or no. That is just a statement of what you hope for.

Anyway, sorry if I am being hard on you. I really wish I could do something to cheer you up. I'm so bummed the lolcats don't work on you LOL!

Bottom line, the card doesn't mean anything. You are making it mean something. FYI, I did not give my husband a birthday card this year. It doesn't mean I don't love him or care about him or our marriage. I should have done more for his birthday, but I was just swamped at work the week of his birthday and didn't have time to do anything. Thank goodness a couple weeks before he asked me if he could order a really expensive jacket and it would be his bday present, because I'm sure I wouldn't have had a present either! I know ... bad Snuggle!! But do you see how it doesn't really mean anything?

Ok, I have to get dressed for graduation this afternoon. Take care Dino. Happy father's day ... you are a great dad and I wish there were more of you.

I hear everything you're saying Snuggle and I understand. This thing is such an emotional rollercoaster. We were doing really well yesterday adn somehow her mentioning my thank you note got her going on all the other stuff, and them I take the opportunity to talk about stuff and it's all downhill from there. I really believe that her guilt has slot to do with it. She says it does and says she hasn't yet forgiven herself for getting so weak. She's so angry about life in general and is scared about the future. Says she doesn't know herself or what she wants to do in life in general. I feel for her so much. The last thing I want to do is cause more stress.

I did apologize to her about talking about the NC thing. I explained that days are up and down for me too. I told her that the controlling thing is something that I'm working and won't be that way to her ever again. She said I had every right to be that way but said that it makes her feel smothered and she doesn't want that ever again. That will be the last time I ask about it. She's going to have to make that choice herself. I do fear for her safety though, if she gets caught she's going to be in alot of trouble. I won't lie, it hurts to know that it means that much to her that she's willing to risk her well being to do that. She tells me that she just get updates from him in case she gets called to testify against him. Says she hasn't talked to him in weeks, it hurts.

Yesterday ended up going pretty well after all. We had dinner and watched Juno. Everything I see gets me so sad though. It seems like theres always something that reminds me of marriage or growning old or raising kids. In the movie the girl said that she wanted to make sure that her baby would be with a couple that would love each other forever. She asked her dad if it was possible for a couple to stay in love with each other forever. I had to walk out, I'm so sensitive to everything, I can't figure out a way to stop doing that. It was tough yesterday talking to my family and in-laws. Noone knows we're having trouble. I love my mother-in-law so much. Everyone asked how we were doing and of course I said wveryone is doing well. My wife was witting next me the whole time.

Like I said, I didn't start this whole episode, I wanted the day to be good. I do have to stop holding on so tight. It's hard to find the right grip. I thought one thing she said was kind of funny. She was talking about how much we don't get along or don't conversate and stuff like that, how much we weren't friends. I kind of let everything slide since she was emotional at that moment, but she said "we don't even sleep together anymore". I thought that was kind of strange for her to say. She knows why I don't sleep with her. She even said she doesn't want to touch me. Am I making a mistake by sleeping downstairs? Am I sending the wrong message by doing that?

Anyway, she gave me a hug and kissed me on the cheek before she went upstairs. She said I smelled good, I asked her why, she said "you smell like a man". I'm trying Snuggle, I have to concentrate on the big picture. I don't think I did anything wrong yesterday, just bad timing I guess. I didn't do any DJ or LB type stuff so you can be proud of me there. I guess I just overreacted yesterday on my post. I was a wreck though, it just got to me really bad for some reason. I ended up fixing her car door locks and it took my mind off of things for a couple of hours.

About the card thing, it did kind of bother me. The kids didn't do anything either. I always make sure the kids don't forget b-days and stuff like that. It's just a care thing I guess. The kids are just kids but I thought that she would've at least kept them in line. It's over now, just another bad memory I have to flush.

One last thing, I asked her again about if she thought we'd be able to live under these conditions for another 5 months. Of course she said she would have no problem with it. Somehow we got on the subject of her moving out, she said she would and that I'm forcing her to make the decision now and she decided that it was finished. I told her that was not what I wanted, she says that it actually brought her peace now that she felt the decision was made. Of course we talked more after that and noone is going anywhere. It hurt when she said that, I know it's just talk until she takes action but man it hurt.

Thanks again Snuggle. Thanks for the support and kind words. Don't you ever worry about being hard on me. It took some hard love to get me on the right track so more can't hurt. I just hope it's not too late. I think I'm going to lay off all this reading and solution searching I've been doing. It may be hurting more than helping at this point. I catch myself attaching some kind of expected result from the things I read. I think I'll just concentrate on actions and taking care of myself. Of course you're going to be my rock, I hope I'm not putting too much pressure on you. You just have such a good way of painting the picture for me with words. I need to trade in my shotgun for a sniper rifle and take aim at the things that are real "threats".

thanks again Snuggle, have a good day

LA

I really appreciate your time in putting all of this together. I'm so glad there are people out there with enough compassion to help those in need (like myself).

I want to attack this NC issue and maybe shed more light on it. Please tell me if you think it's just more excuses but I really feel like I'm taking the best approach I can under the curent circumstances.

She hasn't committed anything to me right now LA, nothing. The only thing she has said is that with her life situation with retirement and the legal trouble and stress with her actions and our marriage and her guilt from failures as a mom and wife and everything else you can pile on top of that, she isn't in any position to make a rational decision about our marriage right now. Basically, if I press her to make a decision, she says in her current state of mind, it would be easier for her to go off and be on her own so she doesn't have to deal with anymore stress. She has told me on numerous occasions that right now she just wants to be on her own with no pressure, she just wants to sleep. I know it's a fantasy world but with the job she does, coping is a victory for her right now.

With that said, she has very little care about what I think or feel. NC subject is a HUGE LB for her right now. It has very little to do with NC, it's really just the subject of my past controlling and jealous behavior. She did tell me that she won't lie about it and she hasn't. We're not it any kind of recovery mode or anything that we would have some kind of agreement to sit down and talk about when she has contact or why she needed to or any of that. Basically, she doesn't really care. Yesterday she was very frank when she told me that my belief that NC with him would help us out would be a very big mistake. She wouldn't be in any other state of mind even this guy were to disappear off the face of the earth. So this is about choices in my opinion. Choices or pros and cons. My wife is very strong, her A was fueled by the 8 months of separation more than anything else I believe, a casualty of war. None of the MB principles work from 4000 miles away, no intimacy, no 15hrs, no nothing. She did make her choice and it was wrong and she's paying for it.

Here in the UK they don't have the traditional cell phone contracts like we do in the states. Everything here is pay as you go. Like the throwaway phones you get from Radioshack. When you run out of minutes, you go buy a voucher and call in to recharge your minutes, no bill, no record, nana. So there is no checking up. If she doesn't make an enthusiastic agreement to show me her phone, any attempts I make will just be taken as another attempt to manipulate and control her, not in our best interest, marriage or otherwise. If we survive this initial nuclear blast, we may be able to make agreements like that and talk about them as a couple. Right now, we aren't even close to being at that point. As far as that military NC thing goes, they are in separate countries. Unless there was some kind of FBI/CIA operation that was monitoring their cell phones, noone would ever know. I never had contact with OMW, nor will I. Like I said, they live in another country. If OMW or I decided to report any contact to the military, what evidence would I have? Like I said, no records, no bills. If they were ever approached, they could just throw away their phone. For all I know, they each have a phone just for calling each other. If they get caught for whatever reason, she would be demoted and probably sent to jail. For him, who knows. He's already gonna be kicked out, lose his officer commission and some kind of hugr fine and possible dishonorable discharge. I don't know if breaking the NC order could make it any worse. His punishment is still pending since it's such a, antrocious crime for an officer.

So where does that leave me? If I keep at it, she just gets farther and farther away, she knows exactly how I feel about it, knows it's a condition for our recovery. I've told her everytime the subject comes up, if we start on our recovery in the future, contact with him will not be tolerated at all. I won't live with it. She knows that, right now she doesn't care. Basically, we're kind of in a holding pattern, we don't like it here. It's a huge depressor for both of us and the kids. All the events of the past few yrs, being here, all the stress she's under from work, our marriage, the guilt, her retirement and our upcoming move to who knows where, all are factors in her saying she isn't in a healthy enough frame of mind to make a educated decision about us. She's emotional right now and angry. Most of her anger comes from the fact that she saved me from having to go through what she's going through right now with her career loss. Granted, that has alot to do with why we're in this situation now but that's all past. She's angry that she lost her career for a huge mistake, the same one I made and now she looks like the bad guy in everyones eyes, everyone that knows anyway.

So here we are. I have a choice to make. I've talked to her about my reasoning for insisting on NC, told her I believed it to be in the best interest of our marriage and not just for my well being. She insists that the only reason for contact is for the legal stuff, what should I do? I could raise a stink about them having contact for which I would have no proof. If the military did anything about it, she would be demoted, go to jail and where would we be then? Would that make her want to work on our marriage and reconnect with me? Would that kind of tough love draw her back to me because she would see how much I "care" about our marriage? I don't think so. I have a little more respect for her ability to make educated decisions. If she gets caught, she will suffer the consequences, at least she will own it. I could continue to press her into a corner and end up cutting my own throat. If there is any chance for us, I want to keep it open. Me letting go of the NC thing for now may prolong some of this but I don't believe it will kill us. Me continuing to press her will, I know this. We leave here in 5 months. We have a family reunion in August in Hawaii for my brothers wedding, it should be a good break and time to reconnect with family. She'll be done at her job in October so that will be one huge burden off her back. I want to wait for favorable conditions before we do anything. She agrees, it sucks but at least we agree. It won't be easy for me but it's better than the alternative. Our living situation here has a huge impact on our decisions. If we were in the states, she would've moved out, thats for sure. It may happen when we get back, we've talked about that too. A separation may be what she needs to help her decide. I know it's not the ideal thing to do but if she decides to leave, what can I do. I know in myself that I've acted admirably and that I've shown her the love and support that I can give, that she is safe to come back to our marriage If she chooses. I believe in my heart that she will make the right decision, now is just now the time. it hurts just the same, that's something I have to deal with, she can't help me with that.

Besides the NC thing, we do really well. We spend alot of time together, it may very well be because we have noone else to spend it with but I have believe that it is helping us reconnect on some level. We get along great and make plans every weekend. She just called me to let me know what she's doing with the kids and stuff. Her and the kids are off today, actually the kids are out of school now, she has the day off. She hasn't done that since I can remember. We don't go to counseling together. They don't have any "real" counseling here. Just people to talk to. She won't go anyway, still not committed enough. She still cites all the things I used to do, I wouldn't go to counseling back "then". I go to my mental health doctor once a week, more of an outlet to talk, no real counseling but it helps. Also got me some sleeping pills, don't need them all the time but it helps when I need it.

I really do understand the concept of the NC thing, I really do. It's something I struggle with alot. I'm just not sure if I'm at the point of sacrifice yet or not. If I believed we were at the point of no return, I would be more than willing to lay it all out at the sacrifice of her well being. If what she tells me holds any truth, I have to give her some credit and be willing give her the respect of making decisions she believes to be right and just. That's soemthing I haven't done for her in yrs. I've always tried to control her and her decisions, disrespecting her and pushing her away, I don't want to do that again. I'm not a fortune teller, it may come out in the end that I made a huge mistake. If I always knew what to do , I wouldn't be in the position I'm in now. I can only make an educated guess.

I'll read the thread you suggested and post some thoughts. LA, again, I appreciate you taking the time, I hope you can see my point. I may be apologizing to you one day, hopefully not.

LA

I just read through a bunch of Rocks thread and a couple of things jumped out at me.

First, it made me realize how good I actually have it. At least the problems we have are just the marriage and things related to it. Neither of us are having to cope with addictions or any substance problems. I feel for those that do, this marriage stuff is enough on it's own. Makes me feel like such a fool and emphasizes how weak I really am. I really need to do some work on me. Alot of people here on MB would probably love to be at the level were at right now. In retrospect, we're leaps and bounds better than we were 6 months ago, and that was prior to dday. So thank you for that LA.

The second thing was about waiting for her to get well. Well is a relative term. My wife isn't sick or addicted in anyway, but mentally she isn't well at all. I admire her so much for how she has been able to handle all the things she has gone through in the last 6 months. From the guilt of leading a second life, to dday, to her punishment and ending of her stellar career because of a stupid error in judgment. Now dealing with a job that treats her like $hit and works her to death and a retirement she isn't prepared for and me pressuring her about our marriage. All of this and she has still been able to do the outstanding work she has always done and making her shop run like nothing ever happened. Working ungodly hours without complaining and still managing to stay relatively positive at home with me and the kids. She could be justified in clamming up and shutting herself in the room and hiding from everything (which is what she says shes feels like doing). But no, she struggles through everything and keeps her head up. She's been doing it for years like she says (she's done it for everyone else, putting their needs in front of hers) Now she says she has to take care of herself, thats part of our dilemma, how can she believe that it is possible to take care of herself while at the same time staying in our marriage without going back to the same old routine. I'm making the changes on my part, we have to be around long enough for her to see them (my part). So thanks for that LA. I guess what I'm saying is, I have to be patient and wait for her to heal within herself before I can expect her to give any energy to us. She hasn't healed herself, so rebuilding efforts toward the marriage are kind of on hold in some aspects, not all. Maybe reminding myself of this will help for me.

I'd really like to know how you feel about this. I really need to be able to empathize with her. Snuggle has mentioned that to me alot. Don't get me wrong, I'll never take blame for the things she did but our marriage was broken before any of that. Had it not been for her A, I may have never have fully awakened to the state of our marriage. I knew I had work to do, but had no idea why I did the things I did or why I treated my most precious gift in such an unkind and disrespectful manner. I know my part in this and I'm trying to make amends. I wish things could move along more quickly and I miss her so badly. But like I've told her, a few yrs to make things right are nothing compared to a lifelong marriage to someone I love. She is going to need patience from me as I will need for my own well being. Please let me know your thoughts.

Thanks again LA

Thank you for this Snuggle

Dino,

Thank you for your replies. Would you do something for your peace of mind? Call the Harleys at the coaching center link at the top of the screen. It would be well worth the money and time, IMO, to be clear on your plan.

They are great for clarity.

Sounds to me like you know you're not in recovery right now. Knowing what phase we're in and when isn't as easy as it sounds.

As for her not being committed right now...again, I hear what you hear her saying...she did commit to informing you about NC and she lied by omission. I say this to help you to see not through her eyes...to know reality.

As for not making a decision about the marriage right now...I can't imagine without MC, some outside source of authority, while in contact, that she could make a decision for her marriage.

I could see her making the choice to not continue the A, however. You can stand by your belief...and if you believe contact continues the A, continues the fog and prohibits recovery right now, then stand by that.

When we are in crisis, it's understandable to believe that leaving everything will lessen stress...the stress comes from inside, lack of processing it, and she adds to her stress, reinjures you might say, through her choices. Easy to see from the outside; not from the inside. I believe our inner child is where that urge to leave comes from...to reduce one stress factor (in our minds)...not real. There is stress as a natural consequence of her actions.

Please talk to the Harleys about NC being a huge LB for her. I understand you wanting to get as many love bank deposits in...I know this affects your choices...for clarity, something which may resonate with you, I hope you will call them. And ask them about telling the children, also.

Reporting each contact as it happens wasn't a POJA decision...more of a requirement to get to requirement...can't begin one without having established the other. I'm so sorry that the UK is different in regards to cell phones. Does she repeatedly say "for legal reasons" or is that you recalling the one time she used that to justify contact?

I ask because I used to do that...stay in one frame of mind, one perspective, from me repeating in my head one response, over time. Not great for reality. What I get from you is that you are awaiting her decision whether to leave the marriage for OM, leave the marriage for her, or stay and work on the marriage, is that correct? When is the deadline for her decision? Is it October when you guys move? After the August family reconnect?

See, when I was in your shoes, awaiting my WH's decision...three months was horrific. Can you really go 8 or 9 months? What's a realistic time frame so you don't love all your loving feelings for her and NOT want to recovery yourself?

Are you sure she believes she made a seriously stupid mistake...that it was a mistake? I ask because she can believe the stupid part was in getting caught. Don't assume...better to know right now...because her continued contact, putting the OM before her family and your marriage says differently to me. Shoring you up to know reality instead of going into what she believes, which is dangerous to your marriage.

Can you see where her A has gone on for nearly a year, in the state of mind...with contact? Not one stupid mistake. Your own went from the ONS through two contacts...because your state of mind stayed in it, dwelled on it...otherwise, those two other contacts would not have taken place...when you really get it, you got it.

I worry you are mitigating to console, ease, soothe in some way yourself and her inside. To earn brownie points...which doesn't work at all. It continues what you didn't want to continue...subtle manipulation and control, though in a whole new way. We trick ourselves into continuing our habits...because for years we told our brains that's what we want...they keep handing us these manuevers...until we begin saying, "That's not what I want." It's how we keep re-experiencing the same stuff in different ways THINKING we're doing it differently.

I'm interested to know your reasons to not contact OMW. Do you, like your WW, see her as the reason for all of this pressure, mess?

I see a couple of things that strike me as parallels...one, your WW feels she gave everything (massive Giver) to the marriage and now it's time for her to give to herself, (something close); and her feeling added pressure from guilt failing as a wife and mother...big all or nothing POVs. At the same time.

I see you saying you couldn't prove contact, even if you were to report it to the military; and then I see you saying what good would it do your marriage if you reported contact and she went to jail.

She believes she saved you from going through what she is going through right now career-wise, is that correct? Do you mean your A was with someone in the military, also? Was this person also married? I thought I asked this before.

She can believe most of her anger comes from her past choices, like saving you...listen and repeat her words back because you act from respect..."You believe most of your anger right now is because of what you didn't do five years, not what you just did in the last year, is that correct?"

I see it as a reasonable fogged out statement...my As were about making my BH feel what I felt, go through what I went through...stupid stuff...I remember. Which is why I know the fog turns our reasoning process inside-out and upside-down...why our partners need to hand back our words, be our reasoning guides...not to convince us. To know reality while we do not.

I didn't understand your reasoning about if she gets caught at least she'll own it. She's not owning it now...she is violating the NC order...please don't go into her reasoning. Owning based on being found out is not ownership. Her actions would send her to jail, not you. Her actions got her here...yours did not get her here, 'k?

Maybe it's just my perception--I hope Snugglefresh and the others come back and post to you so you can hear their perceptions. Self-deception can become contagious when we want to agree our way back to feeling loved...that's my take...and if you go with her into her perceptions, then you have imbalance, disrespect and no one to be the lighthouse for your marriage.

It's like you believing that possibly she'll need a separation to make her decision in October, November or December...why? Why are you thinking this? How long can you live with her NOT choosing your marriage, the path to redemption...instead of pondering breaking apart her family and walking away, justifying her choice based on what you did and she didn't do five years ago? She chose not to recover back then...her half remains, too. No one is the bad guy in your marriage. You both made choices, from and for your half of the marriage.

You will not need to apologize to me, ever. I'm an anonymous poster who wants your marriage to recover and thrive. I'm a friend of your marriage. Know your reasons now (as you said you still don't know your reason for your A) because they are vital...you haven't gotten that compass set, your code made, nor are you choosing your actions from it...letting go the outcome. I understand...when in crisis, we swing one way and the other...reactivity at its highest.

Get your compass, your code and get on the phone to the Harleys...you've got your plan laid out well enough to impart it to them for their opinions. They are the experts. Dr. Bill Harley has many decades of experience in advising BH's right where you are now...'k?

You're not alone...thank you for reading Rock's thread and sharing your thoughts.

One last thought...can you see where you and your children are also suffering under the pressure of what wasn't your decision? You are all affected...natural consequences come and keep coming...isn't just her coping. You're in charge of the big picture...make sure you don't go into a BS fog, 'k?

LA

I'm working on that. The time difference makes it difficult. I have to take off from work to make an appt and I don't want anyone home when i call, you know what I mean? I've been in contact with oe of the counselors there by email, just have to make a time suitable for them and I


She won't talk to anyone, don't know if she ever will. I don't know what to say about that. She's very strong willed. I understand that her stubborness is what got us here but I have to work with what we have. It may not work out for us but I have to try with what I've got. I still believe that somewhere inside her she stills sees us as a family. Maybe after some of this shock and pain wears off she'll be willing to MC for both of us. She knows I've already been going on my own, she's just not ready, reasons why not don't matter to me.

Again an LB issue. I believe she doesn't come out and tell me because she believes sooner or later I'll back her into a corner and demand to know. I've told her that thats not what I'm trying to do, but thats her perception and perception is reality unless the perception is changed, correct? As for the "legal" reasoning, let me explain. He's still going through his court martial. Shes afraid she will get called to testify, she wants it to done and over, doesn't want to get caught unprepared. Uses the contact to remain "aware" of the situation over in that other country. She says the same thing the 2 times she told me she talk to him. Says she never made any promises to me about that, just that she would tell me if I asked, said she wouldn't lie to me, her way of justifying to herself her actions. I hope to talk to the Harleys about this whole thing.


I don't know what a realistic timeframe is. I do agree that I won't let it go long enough that I lose my love for her and begin to resent. I told her that on sunday, she doesn't grasp why I would begin to resent her. She's fogged out still. Believes that if we don't work out we could still be the best of friends for the kids sake. I never thought I'd last this long but I'm still here kicking and still upbeat. Like i said, I set milestones for survival. I'm usually a strong person, I do this for her and our family but maybe after I regaining my inner strength, either I'll walk myself or she'll see it and be attracted back. We'll see. As for a deadline, I think when we get back to the states, things will become pretty clear. We're not doing bad now. Like I said, we're doing as well as most marriages I see considering the bad shape were in. We're not going to continue like this forever, it would be physically and emotionally impossible. I'm not sure if you can put a deadline on something like this. A few years to repair is nothing compared to a lifelong marriage. If the time comes that I can no longer continue, I'll know. If the time comes for her, she'll let me know. Right now, neither of us wants to make hasty decisions based on emotion. I think we both value the marriage equally, I'm just more ready to work than she is. She carried me for years, worked for us alone, now it's my turn to carry her while she's weak. If she decides that she's ready to work with me, we'll repair and recoverm, if she decides not to, then we'll start new lives.


I struggle with that thought daily. She knows she made a stupid mistake, knows she threw away her career for something she believed made her happy at the time. Casualty of war as I said. It's easy to fall when you're away for so long, i've seen it a million times to people who thought their marriages were bullet proof. Most don't know the experience of being away from your loved one for months on end. Pile the loneliness with marriage problems and the first friendly face that comes along in a sea of turmoil is easy to latch onto, not that everyone does, but it happens often. She know she screwed up. My wife is not a flighty, girly girl with weak substance, it took alot to get her where she is. My taking blame is not just a BS fog thing, I was not a saint by any means, my A was just a small part of why I pushed her away, she treated me like a prince and I threw it away, I can say that with every fiber of my being, not because of some self-saving scheme to keep my wife here. I screwed up our marriage. My wife and her A were just another symptom of the poisonous marriage I created, her half was enduring for the sake of saving it. So I may be a little more willing to "sacrifice" than most, I owe her that much. I will, however, say that if we decide to try at recovering our marriage, I will insist on doing things the right way, with the things I've learned here on MB and all help from people here. There has to be a marriage to "apply" principles to, thats where I am, trying to salvage a marriage to "save" (sounds kind of weird huh?).


I think about this too. Should I be handling this differently? Should I have acted different on dday? Did I act as I did as a way to amipulate her into coming back to me? I asked myself all these things. DDay was almost a relief for me, I finally found out why she was treating me the way she was, shy she didn't love me anymore. Misplaced hope it was. What I've learned is that her A wasn't what took her away, her becoming "aware" of me is what drove her away. Her time away allowed her to "see" for the first time how I had "manipulated" our marriage into what I thought was good for us. She finally stood up for herself, I'm kind of proud of her, not the A mind you, that is something for me to deal with also. "us" to deal with, just not right now. I am doing some things for brownie points, I'll admit that. I need them, there is nothing in my love bank, nothing, I'm paying on a mortgage for a home I no longer live in. But, I am NOT doing anything I'm not prepared to continue. Make no mistake LA, if we get this thing turned around, it WILL NOT go back to how things were, no way, neither she or I will live with that.


Honestly, I've never even thought about the OMW other than I'm sure shes not doing so weel herself. I have to imagine that she suspected him of something or he had a history of these things or why would she be snooping in his email? Not sure if you knew, shes the one who found out everything and exposed to everyone. I found out because my wife had to tell me about the NC order. Wife says that in their last time physically together, they had talked about working at home on each others marriage since they knew it would be the last time they could actually see each other. I don't give it much thought because it doesn't really matter. The PA is over, there may be some emotional attachment still left but how long can it go on? Can she really continue with me and have her ENs filled over the phone? She may be able to, but I won't stand for life like this, won't happen. If she chooses a phone relationship over our marriage, she's weaker than I thought and I'll be good to be rid of her anyway.


What I said was, reporting it would do no good without proof. The only proof I have is of her telling me so. If I reported her, she went to jail after the burden of proof was supported, where would that leave me and my kids. Safe in the satisfaction that I did what was just and right? That I stood up for our marriage? Is what she doing a crime other than hurting my feelings? The only reason it's an actual crime is because we are in the military, adultery is only a crime in the military and in the eyes of God. In 5 months it won't even be a crime for her. Will she see that I acted in the interest of our marriage and come running back to me after she spends her time Leavenworth? I think not. She know she's doing wrong. She'll deal with it her way, like I said, she is not weak. I, on the other hand, am not so strong. So this is a test for me too. Allow her to make her own choices, something I never did. Do I reall think that this will make or break our marriage? I don't think so. It can if I allow it to. The time will reveal itself to me if I need to pack up and call it quits.


She believes she did at the time, knows now that it was self-defeating, at the time it was sacrifice, something she's battling with now. The OW was also military, worked with me, younger, not better looking, nothing to offer me other than attention, not that I was missing it from my wife. Our moving to another base saved us, only to be killed by contact. In retrospect, what I believed to be innocent contact, wasn't. There was no EA for me, just selfish self serving pride of knowing that someone else wanted me. Teenage cravings of a middle aged man. Never thought once of the effects it had on her. We both agreed that her inaction made me the monster I was, she owns her part in it.


Thats only part of it. Anger from her stupidity, anger from her loss, anger from her inaction. Lots of anger. I have to work on the repeating back to her. I think about doing it, but it good for me just to keep from the LBs and DJs when she starts in on the "reliving" the past again and again. It's getting better each talk. She apologizes when she does it, at least shes aware now, she wasn't months ago. I'll try to do the repeating back thing, it would probably do good to hear herself saying what she says.


I'm not saying she will need a separation. I've told her very clearly that a separation is just a cop out, a way of not dealing with our situation. But I also accept that a separation is not the end of things. Only the end is the end. I'm just aknowledging the possibilities. We haven't talked about it at all. She even says that she isn't thinkin about it. Just one of the many things said during our relationship talks. We try not to discount anything, leave everything on the table, things we never did before. This is progress for us no matter how twisted and strange it may sound. We let things sit in the shadows for so long, just talking about things no matter how unpleasant, it progress.


I understand this all too well. It is a delicate balancing act to remain truthful oneself while at the same time wanting to feel loved. I miss her so bad it seems that sometimes I will do anything. I know I won't, she wouldn't let me anyway, she'd see right through my deceptions, that may be another one of her fears. I'm not looking to decieve her or myself. I have no delusions of makgin "temporary" fixes for the sake of short term affection. For once in my life, I have a vision of long term health and happiness for our marriage. It's taken me 18 yrs to realize, unfortunately it took a nuclear bomb to wake me up. I can only hope it's not too late. Only she can decide that. Pressure from me and pushing her into choices won't do. No matter where her rationalization comes from, she will make her own choices without my influence. The only influence I can give her from my standpoint is for her to see that I am the safe place, that she can come back home to ssfety without fear of regression to the way it was. If she sees that, I have no doubt she will make the right choice. It the damage is too great and she doesn't see it, there is nothing I can do. Only regret what could've been. I do feel fear LA, i do. I don't want to lose her, I don't have my compass yet, you're right. At least I don't have my spiritual compass anyway. I am trapped by fear right now, I'll admit it. I don't think I'm doing anything irrational though, I feel like I'm still ok in that aspect.

I will get on the phone with the Harleys though, been wanting to do it for a couple of weeks now, time zones are a pain though, not an excuse, believe me, Im not afraid to talk to anyone anymore, I'll spill my guts to the first willing ear LOL! Money is not an issue, just a tool.

Thanks again LA

You are sounding much better today! Are you feeling a little more upbeat?

I have to say, I found this statement REALLY interesting:



Do you think sometimes she misses the physical affection between you two? Since I don't know her, I don't really know what is normal conversation for you guys. However if *I* said that, that would definitely be a come on. Otherwise, the only time I would notice how my husband smelled is if it was bad ... LOL!

I'm glad you were able to keep busy with things to get your mind calmed down. That is huge progress. It's too bad you are in England and not California, because I have enough projects to keep you really busy the next five months

Yes Snuggle, doing much better today.

Yesterday was a good day too. I was in a pretty good dang mood and she was in a good mood too. She actually called me at work twice yesterday to say hi and ask me about some things, sounded cheery also, it made me feel good. She had the day off so she was running around with the kids.

I wish I could put my finger on the differences between my good days and bad days. That's the elusive key to me stayin sane throughout the weeks. It seems to be getting better for me as the days go by. This morning was good too, she fixed me some leftovers for lunch while she got ready for work also. Gave me a kiss on the cheek before I left. I think I found another LB for her though, I pretty much already knew it was an LB, but never put much thought into it until this morning. You see, I chew Skoal, been doing it since we started dating. She's always said she didn't like it much, but it's one of those things you over look when you're "in love". In the last few years, she's used it as an excuse for why she didn't kiss me much, I know it to be partly true, I also know it's mostly to do with the state of our relationship. Anyway, this morning when she kissed me on the cheek she says "eww, you're chewing already this morning? It smells nasty...". That struck a chord with me, I really need to quit and I'm going to get in to the tobacco cessation class today. I've tried before but it's a tough addiction, especially when I enjoy it so much. Just thought I'd share that tidbit of news with you.

As for mention of the physical affection thing. I surely hope she misses it as much as I do. She says she doesn't think about it at all right now, with anyone. I know she loves physical affection, we were a very physical couple, always were. Sex was a HUGE part of our relationship, HUGE. We were about as open an crazy as anyone could be in that arena (not open to other people). That was one of the reasons that really hurt her with my A. I could never hope to find another woman that could satisfy me like she can, so when I got caught she was devastated not knowing what she did wrong to mkae me want to stray. I think about today and still can't find a REAL answer. Anyway, her comment surprised the heck out of me, made me feel good but kind of stunned me. I'm pretty dang sure it wasn't a come on. If she wanted me to come upstairs she would've asked me. I appreciate you telling me that though. I take it to be another sign of progress I hope. She does give me plenty of compliments so i just assume that it's another. She tells me how good a shape I'm in, how good I look for my age, tells me how all the soccer moms love me. I try not to read into it too much. Sometimes I think it's her way of helping me with my self-esteem, her way of helping distance herself from be by thinkin that if I was confident enough, I'd move on. See how twisted my mind can get? That's why I can't think into things, I can be self-defeating as good as anyone.

Today is good, day by day. Comments like the one she made help them be good but I have to find a way of making them good on my own. As far as how our normal conversation is, I hope it to be like that again. We were so good together. Not long ago either, sometimes all this stuff makes it feel like we never had a good marriage but I know that not to be true. We had a great marriage, one anyone could envy. Goes to show you that even an oak willwith whither without proper care and love.

Thanks again for the support. Keeping busy is definitely a helper. Can't wait to buy a house when I get back to the states. Then I'll have all kinds of projects to keep busy with.

I'll talk to you later Snuggle! More updates to come!

Dino, I fully support 1000% your decision to quit chewing!!!!! OMG, that is a totally gross habit ...

Just out of curiosity, what do you enjoy about it? I've never tried it, but I've smelled and it does NOT smell tasty. It even looks yucky. Plus the constant need to spit would totally bug me. I really don't get why guys like it. The only bad habit I like in a man, is pipe smoking. Pipes do smell pretty nice. Otherwise, I am anti all other tobacco products.

When do you find out where you're next job in the states is going to be? That will be pretty exciting. Hope today is another good one

Thanks Snuggle,

Not sure what I like about chewing anymore. I guess it's more habit than anything. I just like the taste I guess, I chew mint.

The day is good so far. I did have panic attack a little while ago though. All the sudden I just had this overwhelming feeling about the A. It was like a truckload of bricks on my chest all of the sudden. I couldn't breathe, like I couldn't fathom a way of getting over this whole thing. It felt like all the sudden I just coudn't figure anything out. Kind of weird, since this whole thing started, it was the first time I felt like I wouldn't be able to handle getting past the affair. I'm still feeling a little short of breath right now as a matter of fact. We haven't dealt with any of it now that I think about it. I've been so wrapped up in trying to figure out if she wants to stay married that I haven't really given any thought to whether I can get past the A or not, I thought I had but I don't think I really have! I don't need this right now. I feel like I've gotten into a decent mindset about things. My appt with the doc yesterday went pretty well and I felt good when I left. This morning went well with the wife. She gave me a hug and I kissed her on the cheek. It's so hard not to get overly happy about those things. I came in to wake her up so I gave her a kiss on the cheek and then I laid down next to her with my back to her and she put her arms around me and rubbed my back. I try so hard not to let myself get caught up with the touching but I miss her so bad I just kill myself with the thoughts. She tells me she has no problem touching me but doesn't want me to get any ideas that all the sudden things are going good.

Anyway, I don't want to get myself down. I hope I don't get another one of those panic attacks, that was really heart wrenching. I sure can't wait to get some real counseling, I really needs some professional help for this thing.

hope your day is well

Had a pretty good day today. A couple of moments that I fought off. That attack this morning was something else, dang it hurt. Anyway, emailed back and forth a couple of times with the wife talking about daily happenings. How do you get by without making yourself crazy with trying to define each little action or word or email? I'm still having trouble with that and it sucks. Some days are better, but today was a good day and I still managed to get myself worked up...a little.

Today it was just email, innocent stuff. We were talking about my tobacco quitting. It started by me telling her I had an appt with the hosp, she asked why I have so many dr appts (not many, just seem to be in bunches and I just had the mental health appt yesterday)I told her it was to get the free nicotine gum and patches and whatnot. She say "good on you", your kids will be happy. Then she says she remembers the kids asking me to quit years ago, glad you're finally starting to listen to your loved ones. ??? Why the jab? Or is it one? Why can't she tell me she's happy for me? Is it that hard? These are just questions that get manufactured in my head when I start down that stupid road. I didn't respond back to the last one.

It seems that anything that triggers the thought that she isn't in love me gets me going and I'll be honest, it depresses me big time. The only thing that has seemed to work for me with any consistency is for me to make myself mad and disinterested. When I do that she notices and it turns her off. She even mentioned that she noticed it after the last time we had our GOOD talk. I knew eactly what she was talking about too! the day after we had that good talk, I was thinking about some stuff and got a little pissy inside. Tried not to show it and was nice but I knew I acted different for a couple of days. (The day after the good talk was actually the day I started sleeping downstairs). She said she noticed it and was kind of surprised because we had just had the GOOD talk. Fathers day when we had a BAD talk, she said she wondered why I was acting "weird" the couple days afterward.

So, if I act in a way that makes things a little better for me, she notices and it makes things actually worse. Again I'm in a quandry. But I have been for awhile.

I still need some thoughts on whether my sleeping downstairs is a good or bad thing. It's not like I'm out of the house but I've heard things about leaving the marital bed. What kind of signal does this send to her, any ideas? I tried to get into our bed one night after I woke up downstairs feeling hot and after I laid down, my brain started thinking again and I yanked myself out of bed and went back downstairs. Since then I haven't been in our bed. For the first couple of weeks she made little comments about me coming back upstairs because of my back, or how she didn't ask me to sleep downstairs but now she doesn't mention it anymore. I guess she's used to it. She seems more receptive to hugging me now in the AM so I guess thats a nice side effect but I could see how it would be easier to hug me in the moring than sleep with me all night, I don't know. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Anyway, off to the house. If anything, going home everynight is an adventure, or any other time I have to see her or talk to her or interact with her in anyway. It shouldn't be like that with my wife. Life like this sucks. 5 months can't go by fast enough. At least when we get back to the states the excuses and waiting and lack of options will be gone. Then again, who knows what will happen, maybe things will works themselves out before we leave???? I'm not counting on it.

I think if you have trouble sleeping with her, there's nothing wrong with the extra bed. Let her think whatever she wants - it's all because of her, anyway.

I wish you could find some ways to get out of your rut, to start thinking about other things, doing other things, to kind of get your life back. In other words, try to stop focusing on marriage so much right now, and find other outlets. Did we discuss volunteering yet? It's a great way to make you feel better and you're helping someone out, too.

Thank you so much for your reply to me, Dino...I appreciate your time in pondering and sharing--hits my boundary of consideration. Thank you very much (and now, I'm repeating).

Great to know you're working on getting an appointment set with Steve Harley. I hadn't read that. I really did read your thread, too...still, I missed that part. I'm glad you're making it a priority, too. The time-difference would be daunting...good to know you're going ahead, anyway.


She isn't talking to anyone right now. I'm rephrasing so you can see reality. Your choice to consider if she ever will is fantasy. Might be the reason you have nothing to say about that right now.

Not criticizing you...clarity is really tough when you're in crisis...'cuz you're in it...I'm not. Which is one of the great things about MB...we are all in different stages of what you are going through. I found the more I focused on clarity instead of resolution, the better I felt.

Would you consider that all humans are strong-willed? I ask this, seriously, because we all have free-will...it's our own. Sometimes, hard to see; remains true. Her choices and yours have gotten you to here...to right now...I don't believe in just one thing...we are complex humans, living complex lives with thousands of variables...and in our marriages, both our halves bring us to right now. You are strong-willed, as well, IMO.

More big kudos on going to MC and continuing, even on your own. This once was usually advised here on MB. Just realized, I haven't seen it for awhile. Dropped off my scope. This is really important...active commitment. Thanks for bringing that back for me.


You still choose to define NC as an LB issue not an affair buster. I respect your choice...I chose differently. Also, it was clear to me at the time that WH would tell me of each contact...and yes, my snooping revealed contact before he chose to tell me...and other times, he told me first. Didn't contradict that he agreed to tell me. Broke our old habit of me having to back him into a corner to confront an issue--that was our CA pattern. It was ours because I hid my stuff within my confrontation (making it his stuff), so I say both of our CA pattern, one dance.

Helped us to see our power...each our halves. Mine to verify, his to divulge. Both of us had problems in this area before...mine to make him divulge and him to verify I was making him. LOL. I like our parts now.

I hear you say that your WW didn't agree to divulge, report, act transparently, is that correct?

You know that we can't really prepare for the unknown...contact is not needed to prepare ourselves to reveal the truth. Sure is if we are preparing to skirt, shade or misconstrue it. We need contact to deceive. Again, clarity here...not judgment.

When you tell her that's not what you're trying to do...would you consider stating it's your belief that the affair does not end until all contact ends? No exceptions? Not you trying...you believing? (This becomes important in recovery, I believe, separately identifying your beliefs from your actions...so beginning this in the affair-busting stage helped me.)

She did tell you she talked to him (using that excuse)...was this her voluntarily telling you of contact those two times, or you asking? I'm confused...not you doing it, 'k? You're saying she remembers her promise differently...agreeing only to being honest about contact IF you asked? Can you see how this perception enabled her to then manipulate you into not asking, using your fear of conflict against your marriage?

These are just infidelity patterns--though I think they become more obvious, striking when infidelity is the crisis--good to know patterns so you can change your half. That's what I'm going for here. So now, when you make agreements, clarify in summary what is being promised..."I promise to not ask you about contact daily because you are agreeing to be transparent, is that correct?" Do you believe she agreed to transparency before, was that your understanding?

Thank you for talking about it here, too. I support your choice of making NC the primary question and discussion with the Harleys.


She doesn't have to grasp your resentment...your half is to inform her you resent her choice to have and continue her A...that you're minding your love bank and a part of standing for your marriage may require she leaves before moving back to the states...you don't know. And being clear that you will not be best friends when she is attacking your marriage...you are best friends with your union. So if she chooses divorce, you will be a co-parent, not a friend or best friend. Let go her response...focus on your half of communicating this...knowing you did.

Again, listen and repeat really helps in handing her back her beliefs..."I hear you think we will continue to be act like best friends if we divorce. That's what I hear you telling yourself, is that correct?"

I like how you failed to meet your expectation and survive and grow, anyway. I see you as strong, standing for your marriage...stronger than you expected to be right now. I understand you don't, at times, see yourself in the same light...and that sometimes, you do. Of course, I believe you aren't doing this for her and your family...I see you as doing this for you, your marriage and your family.

I think you're in a really healthy state of mind, not basing your choices on your emotions...so I don't doubt you can reach that goal of getting back to the states.

I'm curious, though, as to what predetermined, progressive boundary enforcements you made in regards to NC in yourself...because when we don't enforce, we create and maintain resentment. We don't enforce based on our emotions...they just signal us when our boundaries are being crossed...same signal whether we are crossing them or others.

Also, I can see your POV about her carrying the marriage and now you carrying it while she is weak. I'm pondering that...because it really helped me to see contact as my WH attacking the marriage...no weakness in his choice--yet, the addiction continues, so the weakness for the fantasy fix continues...I'm striving to see this from your eyes.


I feel like I'm probing an abcessed tooth going back to this...and I think I found something...she knew she was throwing away her career and had justified already throwing away her marriage and family as well as attacking and aiding in the destruction of another marriage and family...is a complete package in her circumstance. Now she isn't facing the loss of her career--she will retire as scheduled--nor the loss of her marriage or family...possibly struggling with how she could possibly be forgiven so much, when she didn't forgive before? I dunno. And she hasn't been forgiven by OMW and kids, either. Nor really by you...I believe forgiveness is a long process...so when we stand for our marriage, we promise to work on forgiveness...that to forgive too fast is to not heal, only pretend to heal. Like promising we will heal, not acting like we already are.

I hope you've seen in my sigline that I am FWW...so I do understand your casualty of war POV. Only too well. Which is why I probe the tooth...I probed my own. You can tell me to stop, really. Posting is healing...and you're correct...there is so much to heal from in infidelity...in my case, a literal lifetime of it. I appreciate your contribution to my own healing in your posts. I'm seeing this as you explaining, not excusing her choice, is that correct?

See, I used my infidelity to fight for my marriage, too. I don't see you as saint, bad guy--just in between, like me. Like the rest of the world, actually. I used the same reasons you have...because I saw where he carried me, when I acted atrociously...and no, we didn't recover from my infidelities or his before...we just went on...repeating...until MB...then we really got to NC and recovery. Together. I hear you.

Not a sacrifice at all...steps for redemption, my part. For me. About me. I'm now allergic to the word sacrifice, can you tell? Even in quotation marks. LOL.

That was a key element in my infidelity.

And why I bought into DH's infidelity, too.

About salvaging, saving, fight for your marriage...I use the term standing for it because you can salvage, save and fight for your half of the marriage...not the whole...in my book. This helped me out when WH chose to recommit...wasn't me saving; really it was me standing for our marriage, my half. Got to see his choices more clearly from this POV. Helped with my resentment, my not creating it or maintaining it. I got that part down well, I think!

Doesn't sound weird to me...what's normal in infidelity, really?

I do hear negative self-talk from you at times. I can relate to that.

I like your phrase that you're paying the mortgage on a home you don't live in right now...you're not making your choice dependent on her choice...nor on outcome or immediate reward. Would you say that's different from your previous choices?

Here's you response to my worry about you mitigating (which was mine, all about me, btw):

Can't tell you what you should have done...makes no sense to me except understanding the urge to have done differently in the past. I even use the word "should" or "shouldn't" as a signal I'm not in my adult thinking when I say it...so does my DH...we highlight when we hear/say it to each other.

What you are doing now is what matters, what's real. Not misplaced hope...you felt relief from finally knowing...which is terrific. There was a cause, you found out, to her behavior (and you weren't it...only used as a justification for a cause). Hope isn't a plan...sure is as necessary to recovery and thriving all the other ingredients. I believe hope comes from us humans being new every day...why it springs eternal...so when you feel hope, know it's not someone else giving it to you, 'k? How can it be misplaced then?

I want to challenge you to rethink your beliefs you shared in your post that I italicized. Doesn't mean you're thinking wrong...means I hear you taking in her foggy reasoning as your own. It's where you got a foothold for standing for your marriage...when your choice to stand didn't require a foothold...it's a choice we make or don't. Doesn't mean you really are taking in her stuff as yours here...that's my perception.

(About those who thought their marriage was bullet proof...separate from your use of that belief...did you read where Dr. Harley emphasizes that this blind trust is one of the causes of A's?)

You cannot drive her away from her desire, her focus, what she prizes and prioritizes. You already know this...I'm bringing it back. For you to be unfaitful, you had to convince yourself your BW wouldn't mind, wouldn't notice, wouldn't matter to her for you to take the action you did...would take you to believe something not real, and depends on you not stating your beliefs to her before you took the action, too. We sure can experience infidelity as if they drove us or we drove them to it.

Your A did make a huge withdrawal in her love bank...and you know that her staying right now added love to yours...so can you see where she blocked your deposits over the last five years, not that you weren't making any? Part of being wayward is re-writing marital history from resentment...don't buy into it. The more you see what you did since your A, the better you can see what she is and isn't doing right now...choosing your own healthy honest perspective...for you. Right now.

Do you really believe you are powerful enough to have manipulated her into having the marriage you had? I ask because if you believe that, you'll believe you can salvage or save your marriage, too...which isn't reality. Maybe you want to be seen as the destroyer so you can now be the creator/healer? What do you think?

During this same period of my life that you're in right now, I got a good hold on my constant all or nothing perspective...what I chose as my perception and perspective from habit (a life-long one). That's what I'm asking you about, from my own filter. Some of the statements you make trigger that in my mind. Doesn't mean you're doing it, 'k?

Would you say part of the relief of DDay also came in the form of honesty? Why you see her as finally standing up for herself--because she was finally honest with you about her thoughts, beliefs, feelings, perceptions--her experience in the marriage?

You know what you have in your love bank? Your choice to love and all the deposits she ever made...remembering them, what you may have blocked out or not realized enough to allow the deposit...you have healthy memories of loving and being loved...and right now, you have love bank deposits from yourself for acting from love. Remember, she can't take those away...you made them, 'k?

Please know when to give yourself brownie points...self-congratulate, support, encourage...very important. You may have used her for this, meeting all of this EN, and now, you meet part of it, reasonably, for yourself. In recovery, keep it that way, too.



I support you in your commitment to a new marriage when NC is established and held to (to get to recovery). A lot of my questions are about the new habits you are forming now...during her A time...because we don't magically change when the opportunity comes...we prepare by changing ahead of time...our stuff, our half...so our desire meets the opportunity.

Like the prior CA you both have chosen in the past. It's tough to see when you are in a lifetime habit of defining, seeing and avoiding conflict to see the process...we act from it in a compact instant...breaking it down, finding its parts is part of changing...as well as choosing to slow down our reaction time...choosing to act not react. Prepares you for recovery...your half, IMO.

Your belief that she will not want what your marriage was like for her pre-A, to me, is an assumption. You don't know. It's okay not to know right now. I hear you speaking for your commitment, your goals and your steps. Not hers in the future.

Or are you forming some future marital boundaries involving her?


To reiterate...I'm not going for shaming or guilting you when I ask you to consider, ponder...what you don't consider/ponder may be part of your own CA tendency (habitual reaction) or mine. I ask what occurs to me...for part of healing entirely from the infidelity in your marriage is to see the far ripples...to actively consider, ponder, probe and resolve within ourselves. Assumptions will cut you off from seeing the ripples, and therefore, not healing entirely (you'll miss steps of redemption and ownership). In Alanon, we learn to ask what is our part...to focus and see it, the whole of it, instead of being responsible for the whole of it. Our part is sometimes small or large or medium...instead of focusing on the size, we just determine our part...so we can see our real power and limits in each situation, event or relationship.

I share this to share my filter...how Alanon helped me to bust my own fantasy game (the all or nothing) and establish my new belief that reality is not what I fear...it's where my real comfort, joy and thriving lives. So I live in it.

I hear you saying your DDay only occurred because your WW had to inform you of it because of the military NC order. So in essence, the OMW, through her exposure, did expose to you (because your WW chose to inform you...still didn't have to). And you chose to not see OMW as a partner in your A busting. That's what I'm perceiving, am I correct? You don't know what she thought, felt, believed or perceived--you just know her actions discovered the A and she chose to expose and report it. She snooped. You did not. She discovered, you did not. So your half of trusting and verifying wasn't in place at that time...and it is now, as part of your acts of love, am I understanding this correctly? Do you plan to trust and verify in your new marriage?

I also perceived you separate her A into PA portion and EA portion, as if they are separate...and they may be very separate to you, is that correct? Would make it tough to believe, then that contact continues the A, because you're separating it into physical contact from emotional contact...like continuing half of the A, maybe?

I wonder, also, if this is reality...because realistically (they are humans, too) he could have flown into town and part of the long hours you believe she puts in at work are actually continuing the PA...because you wouldn't know, would you? Not that I assume this is happening...I have no way of verifying no PA activities...and don't know if you have. Given the severity of his situation, the court martial, seems not likely. Then again, given the severity of the consequences, may not have seemed likely either.

The emotional attachment you ask about how long it can go on...for as long as there is contact. Think about those marriages which suffer from EAs with past boyfriends, who only have contact once every five or ten years...and the WW says, "Oh, he's not a factor" when he HAS been the third-party in their marriage the whole time...because he is the fantasy she went into, in her own mind, and compared to her H's actions or non-action...the fantasy guy in her head...was in her marriage, too.

Reading Harley, you know that we act to create and maintain emotional connection and have resulting feelings...we do this through conversation, admiration, attention, appreciation...so yes, contact means connection...continues the A. You can emotionally, even recalling in your own mind the connection, continue it. How we learn to cherish, honor and love our partners. We do it actively. Contact is action. You yourself are feeding yourself love deposits through memory right now...and through your contact with her.

Which is why developing healthy marital and personal boundaries protects your marriage...as to your thoughts, beliefs, perceptions and actions.

As to your belief that reporting her saying she has had continued contact would require proof, I'm not so sure. I don't make that assumption. Seems to me you reporting her violation of the NC order would then spur them to inquire further for proof, and if they found it themselves, then would possibly imprison her. Her actions having consequences...not you doing to her. Again, for clarity not condemnation. And I hear you saying your reason to not report contact is because you cannot see how her imprisoned would help your marriage, is that correct?


I ask for your limits...where your final boundary is set...and if contact continues through to October, to when you both retire from the military (do I have that correct?), then reporting her will no longer be an option, will it? I hear you don't believe in this policy and therefore, do not report it...or that you don't believe in the consequences of this policy in regards to saving your marriage, or both? I believe the military is well aware of the grave consequences of adultery, and a rule in support of marriage. I also believe that the consequences are not a detriment and may not fit the act, either. Part of it...the exposure part, I agree with. Makes sense to me, though, that prison would be a final boundary, however long the internment. One that isn't taken until many crossings of it previously. Might even reflect that the A (the crime) continues until there really is NC as ordered.

Not pontificating here...sharing my stuff with you and hearing yours...you are in this position as the BH...I'm not. Wasn't. Have one son in the military right now and one who served four years.

Coming back to something I already quoted from your post:

I didn't respond to this directly, more indirectly. I still don't have a way I'm satisfied with, the words I want to address this directly right now. Will you consider this further so we can return to it later?

Another re-quoting from above:

You seem to have a solid handle now on your limits...what you cannot control. I wondered if this retrospective belief comes from when you didn't have a solid handle...that you never did allow her to make her own choices before?

I hear you saying you don't believe that contact can make or break your marriage unless you allow it to for your half, your choices...and you will know in time if you have a final boundary for it by seeing if you call it quits as an enforcement?


Are you implying then that now you will not do the same, that your inaction will not be what you choose? (I see you as acting for your marriage...and believe she saw herself do the same...that this is a mutual belief, which made YOU into the monster you were, scares me.)

Can you follow the trail...think of the ways she could have taken action to guide you in your actions today?


Anger is a part of grieving...the second stage. We can become stuck in one phase. Good to know, I think. I understand that eliminating AOs, DJs (all LBs) and listening and repeating are not your habit yet...good to know they are your goal. Can definitely feel like an overwhelming all-at-once requirement. Helped me to see that listening and repeating gave me MORE time to NOT LB...eased my way into practicing my new choices of response into habit...which lessened my experience of feeling overwhelmed, as well. I encourage you to put it first...and then you can see where doing it aids you in lessening your reactivity (which is our permission to LB). Good to know your marital communication is improving with each talk. Listen and repeat is mutually aiding...her in hearing, as you said, what she's saying; and you in not taking in what she's saying in relation to yourself. To confirm or clarify.

Which is really listening and not just thinking we are (an assumption cut out right there).


Thank you for clarifying for me. I agree with your belief about separation and it not being the end...that the end is the end. I really needed to hear that. You caught me reactive to my own assumption. Which helps me. Thank you for that, too. Great to hear the new steps you're doing which you know you didn't do before. Sounds like you're feeling relief, too, as a consequence of not conflict avoiding. O&H has so many rewards...lap them up, 'k? Real pride versus your previous self-image pride...learning the difference protects you and grows you into thriving.


I bolded the first part because it's so profound to me I wanted to find it easily whenever I needed to re-read it. You equate honesty with losing the feeling of being loved, is that correct? As if one precludes the other, rather than ensures it?

I think you encapsulated the base premise I had for having A's...that being radically honest with myself was not possible and feeling loved at the same time. I'm a bit stunned. I now live in radical honesty and feel greatly loved...even when my DH is not acting from love overtly when he withdraws. Wow. I didn't realize this until you wrote that. Thank you for sharing. I did the balancing thing (which is CA) inside myself for decades...going all the way back to childhood.

As for the missing...I believe you are missing your real wife and we all have felt this part of living with the wayward partner, remembering the real one. Do you think that's a good signal you do understand they are different, maybe? Or do you mean you miss all the loving actions your real W used to take that the WW doesn't? Seems like your real W comes to the table for talks, sometimes...and she's new, too, in that she's making different choicees now in regards to CA.

Sometimes, I would miss the known because I was living in the present, full of the unknown...all my own changes...even the old known DH was better than the WH...my perception from fear and fear of newness, changing choices.

I came to realize I took a lot of comfort in my DH's pre-A image that I'd made up...wasn't really him...was who I had made him in my mind. Letting that go, seeing him new every day, resulted in my not missing him at all...took time...and a deep awareness of presence and the non-overt ways he acted from love. Was a very challenging goal. Still is, at times.

The portion of my post that your quote is replying to was in regard to your own self-deception...catching it, if you will, from her...and I hear you saying you believe your WW would catch your self-deception and call you on it? I hope you meant you will catch your own...though I do believe in partnering, this is healthy for us to do for our partners and ourselves. Enmeshment means we rely on our partners to do it and not ourselves. I think I'm hearing you correctly...you mean in partnering.

Kudo yourself greatly for waking up, even if it took a nuclear bomb going off...because you woke up. Healthy admiration and appreciation for this...please don't discount it (what you may be saying with the nuclear part) in any way...or you will discount what others do by judging how much it took for them to do it. I believe as humans, that it takes what it takes for us to understand. And I see you striving to understand, then be understood. Self-mercy and forgiveness begins with you, as a process. Please process this in healthy way for you will be working on forgiving and showing true mercy for others, too.

I appreciate how you're viewing this as the long-haul, not shortcutting. Again, your post helped me to see in retrospect, some choices I've forgotten...and that was another one. Changed my shortcutting pattern consciously, with intent. Thank you.

I see you as actively forging your own compass, right now, emotionally, mentally and spiritually. Thank you for sharing the process, the journey. You are forging, crafting, examining and creating even while you fear, from love. That's true courage. Way to go.

LA

Good to hear from you again cat.

And thanks for the support. I was just wondering what some of you thought about the extra bed thing. I really don't care much about what she thinks, but it would be nice if she asked me back into our bed. But even if she did, there's be at least a small condition of "some" snuggling or touching or something. The whole reason for me not sleeping there is because it makes me feel so bad. I'm not getting back into our bed to make HER feel good about sleeping. Does that sound a little selfish? It isn't really, it's protecting myself.

You did mention volunteerig cat. I'm staying busy really. Softball season is on which is 2 nights a week (when england isn't raining out our games, had a double header tonight which was cool, but it was really windy). I try to stay involved in some squadron stuff too. Plus the kids keep me busy and I like to cook dinner. Me and D16 are leaving sunday for 5 days in Italy for the highschool girls volleyball camp. Me and a couple of the other parents are chaperoning the girls. Weather is supposed to be nice but raining a couple of days, europe is green for a reason you know. It will be nice to get away, I will miss her anyway, terribly. Like I said, we get along pretty darn good, just missing the physical and emotional affection. We usually spend a couple of hours everynight sitting together watching tv or cooking together, so all is not bad. Most is all in my own mind, some in my position would be grateful, I guess I am but miss alot of things. Hope that we get that back is a positive but negative at the same time.

Is there a way to let go but hold on at the same time (without going crazy)? I like to think I'm getting better at it, but at times feel like I'm still at dday. I guess when I look back, I've made big strides. Wow, I was a mess 6 months ago, and she wouldn't give me the time of day. Now at least we actually talk to each other and she kisses me on the head and hugs me, even says "I love you" fairly often. So I guess you can call that progress. As for progress in myself, I think I'm doing ok. I still have some trouble "standing up" for myself. At least it feels that way sometime. It may just be my pride trying to rear it's ugly head. Sometimes it feels like I'm somewhat of a door mat. I guess its a matter of opinion depending on how you're looking at things.

Thanks again cat, don't be such a stranger

Thanks again for your time LA. You make me use my head and that helps immensely. I will try to define some of my responses a little more clearly, that way you can give me even better ideas to ponder.

Our NC agreement (if you can call it that) was this; when I first broached the subject this was her response "I won't promise you anything, I don't want to hurt you like you hurt me if we end up contacting each other in the future to see how the other is doing. I still value him as a friend but I will only talk to him if we need to discuss something dealing with the case." I was still kind of new to the whole concept of NC and it's effects so I was ill prepared in stating my expectations and boundaries. Her using my past violations as justification to not promise anything also caught me off guard, I was very new to this, I still am. This causes somewhat of a problem because each time I asked about NC, I also told her it would be the last time I mentioned it (because of the LB factor). I guess you can call what I'm doing is granting somewhat of a "grace" period. It may sound a little off, but I guess I'm trying to test my own ability to trust her judgment while at the same time seeing if she will make the right choices without me badgering her as I did in the past. I don't quite know if this healthy or not. I know she has been in the fog, it's obvious, but I also believe that she has come out of it alot and I'm hoping that she can see her violation of her own boundaries and choose the right path on her own. Like I said before, she is very clear on what my boundary is for our future recovery if we get there. So if she really believes she can continue contact, remain true to herself, and recover our marriage at the same time, she may be fooling herself.
This is a subject that will be revisited in future R talks. She says that she knows I'll be a real pain if we ever split. I won't, but I'm not going to pretend that we BFF either. My view is that if we are such good friends, why aren't we still married? That's MHO. Of course I'll be cordial, but unless it involves the kids, I don't think spending time with her alone will happen. It wouldn't be healthy for me because unlike her, I still want to be married. We'll talk more about this subject for sure, I think she's got some rosy picture of us hanging out and laughing going to the movies and visiting each others homes, just not being married, not gonna happen.
LA, she did throw away her career, she is retiring as a way of mitigating punishment. She wasn't ready, she still had a very good path in front of her and her goal of reaching the top rank of Chief is gone. She is a much better professional than I have been in the military, now it's gone. Her 20 yrs of hard work are gone and replaced by the results of a decision to be "happy" for a short time in fantasy. I feel bad for her on that point, I really do. Thats why I supported her so much on the professional front. I was a witness to her 20 yrs of dedication. Her mistake was horrendous but it doesn't erase 20 yrs of dedication to the country in my eyes. Her retirement will be a very small, quiet and lonely ceremony just to cover the leaglities, she doesn't want anything thing more because of her guilt. It should have been a huge celebration of moving on to a new life but will instead be a solemn reminder of everything she sacrificed for her indiscretion. If this isn't a clear indicatin of how As blind you to the truth, I don't know what is. This is again why I use the term "casualty of war". Emotions involved in times of terrible stress can be overwhelming. Your life being in danger daily can have a profonud effect on your view of reality. Not justifying her, just airing some environmental factors. We all chose on how to react to them, she happen to choose wrong.
My hope is mine. She doesn't see any from what she tells me. It's what I hold onto to keep me strong, the days that hope seems weak are the days I feel weak. Hope is something that reaches into the future, involves things yet to come that are larger than today. When I said misplaced hope, I foolishly thought that we would suddenly be back in each others arms wondering why we did all the bad things to each other.
That's part of the new me. I don't to be reactionary anymore. Many of the reasons for our current reality were because of reacting vs acting. I'm doing what I believe to be right and what I want. If she chooses to walk away from us, I want to be able to tell myself I "stood up" for my marriage. I want her to be able to tell herself "he stood up for our marriage but I still chose to walk away". This won't be over soon, if I was looking for immediate reward, I would've failed myself a long time ago. I can say that I did do that in the beginning, it killed me, that helped me change my perspective.
Definitely...as much as it hurt, it helped me see our reality, not the fantasy I had manufactured. It helped me see my shortcomings, my mistakes. I saw what I needed to be doing vs what I was doing. Showcased how I thought the things she was doing were helping us when in reality they were killing us all along. With this knowledge, my hope grows. I voiced this optimism to her many times, maybe it's contageous. I told her I wished she had done this 5 yrs ago, maybe we would've had a 5 yr headstart on what were doing now. She says she should've left me then, what can I say about that? She didn't, here we are, what now?
I thought I did, but she made those choices. Chose to accept my actions, believing that it was for the greater good. I don't believe in anyway I can save this marriage by myself. No way. Even if she makes the decision to recommit, we'll have alot of work to do, together. I do catch myself believing me the destoyer. I know I didn't do it by myself, but if I'm being honest, It was about 80 me, 20 her. Like I said before, I don't give her A that much credit. It does get the golden star for my awakening though. I can't see any other way that would've shook me into reality.
Again, a delicate balance LA. I'm still learning how to approach conflict in healthy way. Like you said, a lifetime habit of CA is hard to break. I hate conflict, one of my worst attributes. Do it at work, do it at home, do it at the restaurant. I'm trying though, at least I'm aware. I keep all these issues I need to address in my head. Looking for the opportune time. Now is not the time for some, an unwilling participant has no interest in conflict resolution. Preparing a clean safe work area goes a long way in doing productive, healthy work. It may that some conflicts never get addressed because we never get to that point, remains to be seen.
I'm not quite sure how to answer this one LA. She told me that she was planning on coming clean when she returned from her trip, doesn't matter now. As far as choosing to have OMW as a partner, i guess I never did, didn't think about it, part of my selfishness I guess. Oh, she didn't have a choice but to tell me. My commander called me in the next day to tell me about the NC order. Commanders talk to each other. Luckily she had told me and I didn't hear it from my commander. As far as trust and verify, I'm not sure if I believe in that concept just yet. I'm hoping that a future healthy marriage won't need it. By this, I'm saying that O&H should preclude this. Verifying, by nature, conveys mistrust in my opinion. You would hope that in a healthy marriage, it can be talked about without conflict, in that sense yes, I would say that I will trust but verify.
Never thought of it quite like that but I would say you're right. In a sense I don't believe they are separate, that's why I talk about the NC thing so much. It gives me security to know that the PA is almost an impossibility, almost. She did bring him here once right after she got home, they hung out for a day, he told wife it was an official thing, it works on civilian wives sometime. The EA part is what I'm trying to give her some leeway for. I'm under no misconception that she cared/cares very much for OM, thats what happens. I'm hoping that she will see that, that she will cut it off herself, we'll see.
Don't think I haven't thought of this myself. Have found myself driving by her work on a few occasions to see if her car is there. Even popped in or made lame excuses to come by. I guess that proves your case about verifying. But everytime I do it I feel like crap. This snooping around is part of what got me here in the first place. I never had reason to snoop and pry and mistrust before but I did it regularly, it drove her away, she told me it was doing it while it was happening and i didn't listen. No that I have reason to snoop, I catch myself saying, "don't do that crap, trust her for once, this is what got you in trouble in the first place". How can I display my new self and make her feel safe to come back while at the same time I LB by mistrusting and disrespecting her? Kind of a catch 22 huh? I know the text book answer, she deserves it. But at the same time, how do I hope to have a marriage to rebuild if I cut it off at the knees before we ever get started? Why would she want to risk herself with me again if I'm displaying the very traits she found so disgusting in the first place? Someones got to change something, i choose it to be me. I'm going to have to trust, if she proves me wrong, I'll cross that bridge when I get to it. They call it the 180 in some circles. If you're doing something that doesn't work, do something else, right?
Putting her well being in my hands with the knowledge that she contacted him is a huge risk for her. Especially since I'm the one who is hurt most by this information. It shows me at the very least that she trusts me with her safety in some small way. I'm not sure that most waywards would risk that kind of info with their BS, not with the potential consequences of reporting it. Maybe she feels safe because she believes I'd never do it, maybe she still believes we are close enough to protect each other, I don't know. I choose to believe otherwise. Maybe I'm not reporting because it gives me brownie points? I'm not so sure about that either. I guess that if I believed it would help our marriage, I would do it. I think I know my wife, most of her anyway. If she's gone, she's gone. Again, I choose to try and hold onto a marriage to save. I'm not saving it myself, I'm just keeping it afloat until either she helps me, or she abandons us and I have to jump in a liferaft.
I'm getting alot better recognizing what I can't control, doesn't make it feel any better yet, but that's getting better too. Contact will not make or break our marriage in and of itself I don't think. It will be a combination of both our choices. My final boundary will be no contact. Again, unless she is committed to saving our marriage (she's not yet, at least hasn't said so) my boundaries don't mean a whole lot. For now, I'm trusting that she is making the right choices. For all I know, she hsan't talked to him since the last time she told me she did. Do I believe that to be true? I have to right now, just to reinforce my decision to trust. She may very well prove me wrong, we'll see.
We are not both retiring, only her. I'm still going for another yr or so, we'll see. She is choosing to go with me, or is it the kids? The kids are going with me regardless of what she does, I think she's resigned herself to that. I won't let her have them, another consequence of her actions. I've asked her why she doesn't move on and start her new life somewhere without me, she says she isn't ready to decide that yet. There could be a number of reasons, I choose to believe she still holds hope for us too. She could be staying for finacial reasons, the kids, who knows. I have to believe that if this life altering epiphany she had is really real to her, she would take this opportunity to jump ship and start anew. I think she's keeping herself fogged in on purpose in some way. If she really believed that our life was so unbearable, why plan to make another move to an unknown state where she knows noone, no connections, nothing only to continue with the source of all your misery? As for the reporting thing, I don't believe in the confinement thing on the grounds of adultery but thats not what the confinement would be for. Confinement would be for disobeying a direct order. The NC order is directed by the commander and is legally binding under military law. NC orders are given for numerous reasons, adultery is just one. So my reporting her is like me saying "hey, she's not listening to you, she's still doing it!" Once she's out of the military, the NC order means nothing. Thats part of my reasoning when it comes to my boundary. Even if she did maintain NC right now. I couldn't be sure of her motives, she could just be holding out until she retired. If she commits and really has NC, then I can put more faith in her. But if she continues when we come back and still hasn't committed, I think that will do it for me. Plus we'll have more options, I can ask her to leave and she can get her own place if she wants, here it's impossible. Alot of constraints here. I can make her leave in the states if need be. Obviously the law will be on my side regardless of our past. Just some clarification as to my thought processes at this time.
I have the LB, DJ and AO thing down pat. I haven't lost it in any of our past talks, I'm quite proud of that, not my strong suit in the past (if it doesn't work, do soemthing else
I think I was more intending to say that sometimes you lie to yourself in order to get loved. In other words, you may be tempted in some instances to be dishonest to yourself in order to keep that "loved" feeling. A balancing act as I said. A healthy relationship can tread the boundary without crossing it, can't it? I'm not really conveying my thought well. I'll try again later.
Thats a hard concept to grasp, makes me think I never really knew her but I know better. I know she's new, fear of not liking the new her is also an issue. It may come to pass that the new her is not for me, we'll see. But I do miss her, the wife I knew. Most of her is buried under yrs of anger from past and present. Buried under guilt and remorse, I know that. I do miss the loving actions too, miss them terribly, she loved me well, even recently. I hope to get there again.

I want to thank you LA. I've never really taken an indepth look at why I had my A. You've got me curious now. I alwasy thought it was just a "man" thing but I believe that in order for me to be truly honest with her and myself, there had to be underlying reasons and I'm going to investigate myself. I'll do some soul searching and post my findings. I hope to continue this exchange with you. You're helping me more than you'll ever know.

Thanks LA

My day was good, thanks for asking We bought a new lawn mower and I slightly pressured my husband to go w/ the corded electric mower (better for the environment, easier to maintain), but secretly I was a little worried it would not mow as good or be a pain to use and it would be all my fault we wasted $$ on the thing, so I was relived when he used it today and said it worked great. He even said he felt good about it being more environment-friendly when our neighbors stopped by to check out the new mower ... hee, hee!

I hope you don't have any more panic attacks too. However, on a positive note, it sounds like the one you did have didn't last very long. To me that is the key take away. You overcame it, rather than it overcoming you. A lot of other people get stuck there and you didn't, so bravo! I give you an A+ !!

Snuggle, congrats on the "green" mower! Sounds like you and hubby are negotiating healthily. I'm glad for you.

Thanks for the A+. Not sure if I deserve it though. Is it ok to have these little breakdowns? Sometimes they last a little longer than others, sometimes they're just a fleeting thought, like a cold slap in the face, then you press on. I count close to 4 months now since dday. I'm not sure how much these things have changed since then. When I'm alone and crying (I allow myself to occasionally) it feels just as bad each time. I can tear up in the middle of a meeting from the smallest trigger. Last night wife and I were watching "America's got talent", there was an opera singer and suddenly I started crying silently. Pretty sure wife saw me but she was crying a little too (don't know why) but he was good. I usually try to let it all out when I'm alone, it helps but I feel disappointed with myself sometimes for being weak. Is that ok? I think they are getting further apart, I don't want them to totally go away. For some reason I believe that if I don't cry, it will signal that I've lost my love for her, I don't want that, not anytime soon anyway.

I feel pretty good today, she told me she loved me too, before I left for work. I felt good even before she told me that so it was a good morning. Not much sleep last night. Stayed up posting too late, lost track of time but slept well. She looked so beautiful this morning, even in uniform. She's always been my one love, never doubted that for a second.

Hope everyone is doing well, thanks again Snuggle and LA.

Dino,

I just read this thread and it pains me so. I hope you are doing in the right thing. It seems to me that contact is contact and that there really isn't a difference between an EA and a PA (okay, maybe with a PA, the BS triggers on different things and SF between the WS and the BS might not be as affected if there is only an EA). Now your WW is putting you in a position of keeping a secret, the best fertilizer for an A.

This kind of contact has been upsetting me so much with my WH. Every time they saw/talked to each other it was 1) a fix to both of their addictions 2) a delay in recovery of our marriage and 3) a direct insult to me, the BW. Of course, I am so early in this that I probably should not be talking. With us, the longest period of NC is 12 days and right now it is NC for the past six days. But I really think total NC is the first and primary recovery element.

AM

AM

I appreciate your empathy. This situation won't be forever, it is only temporary, where it goes from here is the mystery. For now I have to retain my faith in her, it may be a foolish errand but that is my choice for the time being. Sooner or later reality will come crashing down on her, I just hope I'm still around to want to save us. Only time will tell. I know my actions on this subject go against one of the MB principles but I'm the one here and I think I'm thinking clearly enough to judge what would be in "our" best interest considering the circumstances.

These situations work out on different timelines for different people. I'm so happy hear that you guys are already on the road to working things out, at least you're trying. I hope that one day soon we will also be working together to save ours. But for now, I'll be the rock for us, giving up would be easier, i figure I shoud start fighting for something.

thanks and good luck

Good luck to you too. I hope this plan works for you and your family.

H admitted last night that there was contact on Tues and that he had lied about it to me. Rather than getting better, I am inching towards plan B. I may have already spent too long in Plan A now. I have a couple of more mental milepost checks before I start a Plan B. If/when i do it, H will have lost just about everything.

AM

AM

Remember the big picture. Don't react to hastily especially after hearing news like that. Step back and see everything. Remember like I have to, they are still in sort of an addiction. I have been in somewhat of a Plan A for almost 4 months and as far as I can see, just now seeing some kind of result. I may be a very bad example of what to do but at least were still here and as far as I can see, still have a chance. As of now I still want to save "us".

Also, be sure of plan B and plan accordingly, that will mean no contact, AT ALL. Going dark is what they call it. Not a very feasable option for me right now, but I haven't ruled that out for after we get back to the states. Actually, our time here and me showing my new self and taking care what few ENs she allows me to should improve my chances should I decide to Plan B when we get back.

Believe me, I know how you felt when he told you about the contact, it sucks. I think about it every minute she's not around and I'm not absolutely sure about what she's doing. I'm dreading being gone this week with my daughter because it's a whole week not being able to know what she's doing. The thing is, I'm actually going to be at the base that the OM is at. I know what he looks like and I know his name, i hope I don't accidently run into him, I may do something stupid...The only thing that eases my mind a little is that my son is staying here and she'll at least have to take care of him, so in a sense, she can't just run off somewhere. I'm just thinking stupid right now but thats what happens when you get turned inside out.

Anyway, think about it, don't be hasty. When you get antsy, remember, I've been at this for 6 months+.

Take care

LA

So I was thinking about the past and what could have possibly drove me to choose breaking marriage promises by having an A. Obviously there are no justifiable reasons for doing so, it was a choice I made however horrible it was. I used to think it was strictly a selfish act of childishness that wasn't driven by any other need than my desire to act like a teenager. After thinking on it a couple of days, I looked back at some of the feelings I believe I had and I'll try to convey them based on ENs as good as I can.

My wife has always been somewhat of a "tomboy" in the sense that she is very atheltic and loves to compete. This was one of the things that we shared as together time. Playing sports was one of the ways we socialized. This was also one of the reasons she has always got along better with males than females. She grew up in Hawaii surfing and beach activities. One of the things I remember bugging me was that she was a sweats and t-shirt kind of girl. She is beautiful, don't get me wrong, perfect body everything. But I remember beig upset that she didn't dress a little more feminine back then. I didn't expect her to prance around in lingerie at home or wear mini shirts and dresses all the time, but seeing her in sweats and t-shirts all the time used to bug. So I guess this would equate to my EN of attractiveness. It sounds so weak because she really is beautiful and has always pushed the right buttons for me.

She's always been very strong. This used to manifest itself by her having to have a say in the details of every minute action of our day. We kind of laugh about it now because she knows how she was and has since changed dramatically. She would yell at me about where I parked, how I drove, everything from how I cut the grass to which brrom to use and how to do laundry. Much of the same things that most men complain about. The best example of this is when we would go on vacation and go to an amusment park. She would run our visit to the amusement park like a guided tour. She was the only one allowed to hold the map and would direct our schedule like a prison warden, we laugh alot about that now, but back then it used to drive me nuts and I do remember building up a resentment towards that. One of the things I remember wanting was her to at least let me "feel" like the man of the house sometimes. I did do what I wanted, when I wanted but I remember somehwat disrespected when she would act so controlling in a sense. I would do things she asked and then she would tell me how to do it, I used to get so mad. I sometimes wished she were a bit "meeker" or more feminine in a sense. Not so strong headed and stubborn.

After about 10 yrs of being married, she started to be a little more homebound. She started to have less and less enthusiasm about going out and having get togethers or going to peoples houses to bbq and drink or socialize. She tells me now that it was a product of how I treated her but I don't believe that. I used to throw DJs at her like "you're the oldest acting 28 yr old I know", "you act like a grandma already". By the time we were married 13 yrs, we did little as far as dancing or partying or anything like that. It started the trend of my going out on my own and the downhill slide began.

Thats as much as I can come up with. She was as perfect to me as I could ask, in hindsight, but I can remember vividly how I saw things back then. I guess when you're younger, little things have so much more impact.

The OW in my case was about 10 yrs younger than me and single. She worked with me and had given me attention from the day I first met her. She was very cute and very much a girly girl. After knowing her awhile, I knew she would never be the type of girl I could be with or have a "real" relationship with because she was kind of oppsite of how my wife was. Its weird to say I was attracted to this but it's also the reason why I say that my A wasn't caused by anything that my wife did! Does that make any sense? We didn't have a real physical relationship. Never slept together but had dangerous little physical contact episodes at work of all places. To tell you the truth, I had thought that one day we would find a way to hook up but I always seemed to find excuses not to take it all the way. Even when my friends and I would go out, I would flirt and talk to girls but whenever it got to crunch time, I would always look for a way out. I over stepped my bounds no doubt, but I never went all the way. I guess the danger aspect of it had me hooked. We would talk on the phone and write dirty emails to each other and it would really get me going. It was so exciting, but never once did I think I was unhappy with my marriage or even come close to wanting to get together with the OW in anyway. None of this matters to BW though. I might as well have because the effect it had on her is the same either way. The following 2 times of being caught breaking the NC rule just made things worse. We never reconciled my A so the refresh of each contact just tore her apart. She said the last one just broke her down. Of course she held it in like she does everything and we were back to normal within weeks. The steady decline in her affection told me that things weren't normal. I knew the reasons but chose to believe that it was just her being an old woman and not taking care of me, deep inside I knew the truth but my taker just kept at it.

So, I know I'm not the same man I used to be. i know I'm a much better person and look at many things in a much better light and actually despise the things I would do back then. Not just because of me now being a BS, but I think my morality finally took a positive turn about 3 yrs ago and I haven't looked back. Unfortunately my change in attitude didn't carry over to all aspects of me, I believed my changes should have been noticed by my wife and when they weren't, my taker let loose on the jealousy and controlling behavior that has gotten us to this point. I didn't cover all of my shortcomings because there were many. But I believe these were the back breakers. I think in the moral sense, I'm finally where I'd like to be and believe myself to be a pretty honest and righteous person. I hope that my wife will see this someday and give me a final chance.

Thanks for spurring this effort to look inside myself LA. I never really gave it much thought. I guess if the subject ever comes up again between my wife and I, I'll know what to say and maybe it will help bring us a little closer on the O&H part of our lives. If we ever do get to the healing part, I will do my best to get to the root causes for her A so that her and I will never again have the poison inside us breeding that contempt and resentment that has eaten away at us for so long. Hope your weekend was good. Daughter and I are off to Italy in the AM. Worries on my mind but I hope the don't rule my week. I will be sure to look in on you guys when I return.

Thanks again LA

Well, back from Italy. Had a great trip with the girls and v-ball. Weather was a nice change from cold gloomy England. 80 degrees everyday and sunny. Great food and had some fun.

Talk to wife each day, things seemed pretty good. She took thursday and friday off which kind of pissed me off a little since she never takes off when I'm home, oh well. Makes me wonder why but then again, my mind can manufacture all kinds of stuff. Son was home with her and had some friends stay the night.

I'm pretty sure I ran into OM the day I got there. He is stationed there in Italy. Kind of weird how it happened. We had just pulled up to check into our rooms and this car pulls up as we're walking in. I look in the car and I was dumbfounded. Now, I can't be absolutely sure but I've seen a couple of pitures of him but they weren't his full face. But his features are pretty recognizable, curly brown hair, green eyes, kind of skinny face. I'm almost positive. I walked up to the car and asked if him if he was Captain &^%%#*, the guy said it wasn't him but he seemed a little nervous. I walked away and looked back to see and he looked over at me a couple of times. He had a little boy with him and he was parked in front of the office stealing internet service cause he was just sitting in the car using his laptop, probably emailing my wife. (anyone got a good keylogger for me? it will be for a MAC). Probably doing that since they confiscated all his home computers for the case and his wife probably had the internet service cut. Needless to say, I was pretty upset after that for awhile. I had a little self consciousness about the guy being better looking than me but if that was him, I have even less respect for my wife. I guess love is blind huh? I haven't said anything to the wife about it yet, she may already know, does it matter?

Anyway, hope everyone is well.

Well, from everything I've read here, people usually trade down when they have an affair, i.e., pick someone less attractive or appealing than their wife. I wouldn't worry about it.

Sounds like you're doing a good job of handling it; I wish I had better advice.

I guess, just keep trucking, keep your integrity. That's what it's all about, right?

WELCOME HOME DINO!!!



Glad you had a nice time in Italy. I am so jealous!! I would love to have a week in Italy. I would have gelato every day ... hee, hee!

Anyway, you know yourself better than I, are you being at all paranoid? How many people are stationed at the place you went to? Brown hair, green eyes and a skinny face ... not quite as defining a trait as say, a tattoo of a tiger on his left buttock, is it? I'm guessing since his name wasn't visible, he wasn't wearing a uniform, so do you even know the man's rank or if he was army? Don't let yourself get caught up in pointless anger and suspicion, because I have 2 words for you ... Love Buster.

Ok, now go and have yourself a great week!

Snuggle

Don't worry about LBs, I don't do that. But yes, I do know about him, he's a Captain in the Air Force, (the 3 of us are in the the Air Force by the way, not the Army, but I still love my Army brothers). I know where he works, obivously he does the same job my wife does, thats how they ended up working and sleeping together. I know it was him, like I said, I've seen pictures that I've since gotten rid of. there aren't that many people stationed there and the public places are pretty small, everyone visits the stores and commissary so it's not uncommon to run into people. I had a feeling I'd run into him sometime. The Air Force is not as big as you think. I run into people I know everywhere around the world.

I am going to mention it to her though, not in any kind of confrontational way, just to let her kow I've seen the enemy and that I'm disappointed again. Didn't want to ruin the weekend, you know? She came down and laid with me last night even though she was a little standoffish yesterday, says she couldn't sleep. Nothing other than that, no hugging or anything, just laid next to me and slept. I cried alot this weekend, I think I let some expectations creep in. Thought that maybe she would've missed me while I was gone and, well, you know.

I'm afraid I'm starting to create more distance between us. It's tiring to hurt everyday, the body has a defense mechanism against pain. I don't want to lose my love for her but it's getting harder everyday. I seriously think she's just cruising right now because she's under no pressure to do anything. I'm going to give her an ultimatum before we leave. I don't want to move to my new base in the same situation we're in now. If she hasn't given me a commitment by then, I'm going to tell her to plan her move without me and the kids, get her own life started without us.

Anyway, here's to a good week. I hope everyone has one.

Snuggle

I need some advice bad. I talked with my best friend, he says I need to give her an ultimatum. He knows everything about whats happened and has known my wife and I since we got married. He wants the best for both of us but he thinks she should make some kind of commitment by now. I really value his opinion and now I'm just boiling inside. He says I need to have some respect for myself and make her make a decision. What the heck am I supposed to do? Please give me some sane advice, help me get my mind right. Everytime I think I'm doing ok, I get sideswiped by something. This week is not off to a good start.

Dino, that's kind of what I've been thinking, too - that you guys should have reached a decision by now, if it's true you're not doing MB stuff. If you ARE doing MB stuff and think you can get somewhere with her by doing it, I guess it wouldn't hurt to just let it ride - see if things get better before the move.

But if it's pretty obvious she's leaving, you might as well work on that premise. I know you have housing issues, but if you did have an 'answer' it might make it easier to co-inhabit the same house, rather than wishing for something she's never going to give. Like you said, you hate to be in pain every day.

Did you guys ever do counseling together? She really sounds like it would help her.

That's my dilemma cat.

Things do seem to be doing better, I think. I mean, we get along great, no fighting, we hang out, we do things, just not as a married couple I guess (no affection other than the occasional hug or goodby/goodnight kiss on the forehead or cheek if I'm lucky). I struggle with wondering about where this is all going. She acts as if she's staying with me. She never says she's leaving. I wonder if I'm just being impatient? I know that 4 months since dday is not all that long, but she isn't willing to talk with anyone or work on anything with me yet, I just don't understand. Why can't she make a commitment? She acts as if she has, but will not say it, as if she's scared that I'll change my ways. I don't know. If I knew she was committed, i could handle all this pain alot better. I could handle knowing that things aren't well right now but we're working on it. I could handle being in pain for a worthy cause, I could do it. I know she is an internalizer so she keeps everything inside so I never know anything. I try to talk to her once in awhile, every few weeks but so far it's the same story. She's not ready, she thinks I expect her to change overnight, she hates feeling like I'm trying to cage her up like I did before. I understand it all but I struggle with it all. I'm just venting really, frustrated and lonely. She cares not for my pain.

1 month and 7 days until Hawaii and family, I can't wait. Just another milestone to shoot for. 9 days until my base options come out, I'm not optimistic about what te choices are going to be. She says she's going with me but makes no promises about how it's going to be 4 months from now. I'm giving her the ultimatum before we leave here. Like I said, I'm not dragging this pain with me to the new place where we have the chance to start from a fresh perspective. I just need to last until then.

Thanks cat

{{{{{Dino}}}}}

I hope you are back below boiling point now. Giving an ultimatum is not something you should ever do from a position of anger ... that will only make you ask for too much and give too little.

I very much respect that your friend knows you and your wife well. I am sure he has an excellent grasp of the facts of your situation. So how much to heart should you take his advice? Well, how wise do you think he is? When you look at the decisions he has made for himself, how has he done? Is he happily married? Do people admire him for a reason that would make you value his marriage advice over your own instincts (i.e. is it for being a good boss or for being good at sports)?

Friends are such great emotional supports during difficult times. They are safe harbors to let your guard down and show your hurt. Sometimes they can help you see your situation from a different perspective. However a different perspective isn't always a better perspective. You still have to put it all together to get the big picture. And you still have to chart your own path through that picture.

You're still doing ok Dino. It's only your state of mind that has changed. Nothing real about your situation has changed. Don't lose yourself in the mental turbulence.

Dino, is your wife still at that awful job? Are you factoring in how much of her mental energy that is taking up? Do you really want her committing to you in that state of mind? I think it would be better to allow her to at least get out of that bad work situation and have some time to clear her mind so that she can truly decide for herself to commit to you and the marriage and not just do it because she's tired and wants you to get off her back. Know what I mean?

Excellent point.

Snuggle/cat

This is why I come here, for a calm voice of reason and understanding.

My friend is great, he doesn't offer me random advice and he loves my wife as much as he loves me. He wants us together as much as I do, maybe not that much. But you're right, he doesn't see everything. It just hit me because it's the first time he's ever said I should do it. Anyway, I'm not ready for that yet.

And yes, she is still at her awful job, she will be until the middle of october. Actually, she won't be committig to me in this state of mind, so far everytime we've talked, she says she'd be gone if she had to make the choice. So, other than that, those are my choices.

Things are ok so I'm just going to cruise for now. I still cry just about everyday but it seems like I know less and less what I cry about. More of a sad crying rather than thinking about specific things. Anyway, thanks again.

Last night was a good night. We talked and laughed had dinner with the kids. Got some good news about the president signing the new GI bill. It means that my kids college education will be paid for, one less thing for me to worry about.

Hope you day is good

Dino,

I've started two replies to you in the last three days and didn't finish or post either of them. I'm sorry.

Last we left...you were going to call the Harleys and work out some bizarre time to talk to them...they begin at 6am Central Standard American time (can you tell I'm technical?)...so I'm thinking connecting with them is important and maybe worth missing lunch for.

Next, I take it they have contact on the office/base phones? Has she changed her cell number? Her email addresses (I know it won't prohibit her professional email address...but I'm thinking that would be risky for her, wouldn't it?).

Ultimatums are Selfish Demands...you can't make her make a decision...up to YOU to know you are committed (and you know you are); up to you to know your own limits...when your love is draining...and speak of it. State your stuff, about affection, non-verbal connection, and may I nag once again to get those crucial 20 hours of UA in as RC asap?

Since you're AF, thought I'd throw a bunch of acronyms out in a row for you. Rather homey, I think.

Don't focus on her, Dino...do not DJ in your head about her just staying with you...what she never says...those kick your own love bank in the gut and then you're left pointing at her. She's not doing it...you are. That's your half, and you're worth minding your stuff...don't LB on the inside, 'k?

I know you can do that.

Were you boiling from feeling powerless? That's a signal your best bro took you into her stuff. You can respect yourself more right now than any other time in your life, really. You're standing for your marriage after a crisis. Really, one that isn't over. When is OM's court martial scheduled to be finished? I would think about composing a Plan B letter for after the verdict...which is like a drawn-out conclusion to the A.

You desperately want some O&H in your life...so do O&H drive-bys, 'k? That's where you share your stuff in a couple of sentences, interjected with everyday questions or actions. Like, "I've been focused on you and reading your mind lately. My love bank is really drained from me doing that. Did you want this butter to saute the mushrooms?"

"Here's your coffee. I still feel tender inside when I remember how much you enjoyed me making and bringing it to you."

You remember loving actions you've taken and experienced...and lean into those you remember from her...giving you a loving experience right now. Your brain doesn't know the difference, 'k?

We aren't born internalizers, 'k? We are made to know and be known. Think about when you first met and connected...what was it she lauded you for being back then? That's usually what she has in herself she has disowned...see if you can relate that back to her...

And no R talk except for 20 minutes a week, at an agreed scheduled time...to check in on both of your thoughts about the marriage, 'k? Make sure you hold yourself to doing it and not going over. Have something fun planned afterwards. And cut way back on the tv and movies, if this has been your usual RC time together. Go new.

LA

I just saw this--


What a great O&H statement to drive-by. When you act O&H, you experience honesty, lowers your experience of being deprived, lied to by omission. Doesn't make her anything. Holds you to your code to speak, to share, to be known, 'k?

Intimacy is knowing and sharing your own stuff. Up your own intimacy, 'k?

Give yourself kudos for the ENs of Family Commitment, too. And thank her for each time she listens when you guys talk. Thank her for choosing to be present. Because hers is a lie that if she had to choose, she'd be gone.

She chooses to be with you. Don't buy into her justifications...they aren't the truth, got it?

LA

Military monitors everyting, I hope she's not stupid enough to do that.
I know, it's just frustrating sometimes not to know things. I do need to up my honesty and communication. I work very hard on my non-verbals, I'm doing well I think. Also, i know I'm in the AF but I'm not sure what UA and RC are?
Thanks LA, I do that all the time, LB in my head and i know it's not good. Sometimes I scream and yell obscenities while I'm driving. I shouldn't do it and I'll stop. it builds resentment and I can feel it, fortunately I don't act on it.
I actually talked to my bro gaain after that, he actually apologized for telling me that advice. He said he was looking at it from an offensive point of view and that he was a little short sighted, that's why I love him.

To tell you the truth, I don't know, the only way for me to know is to ask her if she knows, and I don't really want to do that. It shouldn't really matter to me and it doesn't. The only ones affected by his court martial are his wife and kids, and him of course. For all I know it's already over, part of me letting go and trusting her to make the right choice. I've been thinking about my plan B letter for awhile. I guess I used the word "ultimatum" bu that's what I meant. I actually want to read it out loud to her if the time comes to do that. Plan B means nothing while we're here. We have to much to do together to make the move happen since we came here as a couple. I've thought about that too. Mostly, my plan is to tell her that I don't want her moving with me to my new duty station if she hasn't committed to me which includes NC and MC (I know some acronyms). She'll scream about her being able to go where ever she wants, she's already expressed the desire to follow the kids, because she knows I won't let them go with her. She also knows that if she tried to fight for them in court, she lose because of what she chose to do. So I'm glad I'm thinking along the same lines as you. If you have some advice about how to implement a good plan in that arena, I'd be grateful to hear it.
I do, I want it so bad. I just wish she'd open a little to me. We talk quite well LA. She actually does alot of the reminiscing of part good things. Brings up instances of good things and funny things in our past, it makes me feel good. I need to work on that. I feel myself getting ready to share some of my feelings at times but then I pull back, I don't know why, like I'm waiting for the right time. I just need to let it flow out huh? Good advice, I'll work on it.
I've been trying to save up R talks for every couple of weeks. Things seem to move slow for us so I'm not sure if every week would be a good idea. Of course if something comes up, I'd like to address it but we seem to be on a pretty decent track right now. We'll see. Like I said many times before, I'm not real confindent in her commitment to things right now. She may be testing my resolve or something, waiting to see if I crack and fall back into the LB/DJ master that I used to be. I'd like to approach her with tools that I've learned but I just don't think she's ready to embrace any sort of "mechanical" plan right now. I think she's feeling me out and feeling herself out. I think I may be able to judge the proper time to present those kinds of things, again, we'll see.

Overall we're doing ok. She actually asked me to massage a kink out of her back this morning. Thats the first time she's asked me to "touch" her since I can remember. Gosh it felt so good, i had to fight the feeling of just wrapping my arms around her and just holding her, I started tearing up and had to compose myself, it hurts so bad. She came down to my "room" the other morning because she said she couldn't sleep. Just a couple of things that have happened in the positive over the last couple of weeks. It still amazes me that I count these seemingly innocent actions. These are things that used to happen as a normal course of our days, what a shame.

Anyway, thanks again LA. I know how much time these posts take and you really put thought and sincerity into your posts, i appreciate that.

Hey Dino!

I'm glad you talked to your friend again and that he changed his outlook. Hopefully things are going better now. Sounds like it might be

Snuggle

It's a struggle everyday. Inside I'm fighting a voice that is telling me that there is no way I should be putting up with any of this. The voice tells me that I have to stand up for myself and protect my pride. At the same time, pride has gotten me into more trouble than anything else. I know in my heart that I shouldn't be treated like this, but at the same time, I don't want to give up. I will snap one day, just don't know what kind of outcome it will be.

Try to look at it as only 6 months out of the rest of your life. Six months, and then you'll know where you stand. Tell yourself that, whichever way it goes, you'll survive. You may not have the life you had planned on, but you can make a good life out of whatever you do end up with. Try to breathe. Marriage or not is not death. I'm sorry if that sounds callous, I'm just trying to get you to step back and realize that, as hard as this is, it's not as bad nor as permanent as death. Even if you do separate, you'll have some sort of life with her because of the kids, even if it's just visiting. And you can make yourself as big a part of their life as you want, if you do divorce.

I second what Cat said! You've said it yourself that going through a year of difficulty is nothing out of the many years of happy marriage you could have.

Maybe it will help if you review the article on The Giver and the Taker (under Dr. Harley's Basic Concepts).



Remember, your wife must have felt this exact same way in the past. How long did you not treat her right? I don't want you to beat yourself up about the past ... it's gone and you can't do anything about it. But I want you to use it to remind yourself how strong you will have to be to equal your wife.

Thanks cat

I think I sounded alot worse in that last post than I really feel. I'm not doing so bad really, I just get real frustrated sometimes. And cat, if we divorce, the kids will be with me, she can be the parttime parent since she chose the path, just one of my things.

I know I'll be fine, but right now I really love her still and I want things to work out. I may be fooling myself, but I really believe she has it in her still, that desire to make our family whole again. Our family and marriage was once her center, I think she'll find that again, only this time she'll have me there with her, as support.

Who knows whats going to happen. I do know one thing though, ever so slowly my resolve and love is being chipped away, not hardly even enough to notice but I can feel it. I don't want it to, but I'm only a human being, I can't take the rejection. I'm not the person that can live with my "wife" and pretend we're just friends. I'm doing it now because it's the only thing saving us at the moment.

4 months, our lives are going to change drastically in 4 months. There are so many things that can happen, it hurts my head to think about them. I just hope for the best.

Snuggle

I can always count on you to give me a smack huh? I have said that haven't I. I just vent sometimes Snug. Like I said, I get frustrated sometimes but I'm still treating her very well and supporting and understanding and everything. Nothing over the top, just so she knows I'm here and I'm not just putting on the "please come back act". She's scared of me, not me but how I used to act about things. I understand, it takes awhile to earn trust like that back.

Don't worry about me beating myself up anymore. I'm done with that. I was a good husband Snuggle, very good. I made some mistakes, I did some dumb things, but I still treated her well, I never treated her like dirt. I always loved her. We had a great marriage and I'd challenge her to look me in the eye and say otherwise. I bet she couldn't do it. We weren't perfect, noone is. We could've handled our problems better but here we are. I'm done with the past, i want to move on. I'm going to help her see her way, either way I'll help her. She will have to make a choice one day, living like this is too draining on the soul, for both of us.

Part of my confusion comes from exactly that, she says she doesn't want to live with the tension and fakeness we had before, but here we are doing the exact same thing, only without the physical love. I ask her how she can take this and she says she's used to it??? Now I'm starting to ramble. I just want to get this train moving.

Thanks again Snuggle

Well, they say here that if you find yourself losing your love for your WS that you need to move on to Plan B, to preserve what love you do have left. Do you have a thread over on Infidelity? Maybe you should post there and see what some of the affair vets tell you.

Here's a band-aid for the boo boo I gave you with that smacking:
_ _
(_::_)

LOL!

Dino, you know she is going to make that choice at some point. My guess is that she wants to make that choice when she is not emotionally drained and can see clearly whether or not you and she have a chance at happiness. This is her being O&H with you. I was thinking about you and thought if it was me, I might consider telling you that I'm committed just to keep you happy and so I could make my real decision in peace!

Your wife is not being fake with you. She cares for you deeply. She just doesn't know if she wants to stay married to you. Living like roommates as you call it, is the reality of your status. I wonder if you are subconsciously looking for reasons to be angry. That pride of yours probably doesn't like being put on the back burner too much I know mine never does!

Why don't you get back to developing patience? It is a virtue

I'm being patient Snuggle.

I guess I just don't understand. It's depressing that it seems we look at things from such different points of view, my wife and I. Gosh we used to be so good together, now it's so awkward.

I'm starting to feel like crap so I'll stop for now. Thanks for the input. 35 days till Hawaii. 128 days till we're out of here. I hope "something" happens before we leave. Moving is too stressful to not have support form each other, we'll see.

I'm so freakin lonely.

When she doesn't say I love you I feel like crap, I can't help it.

When she's not around I'm a wreck.

I don't trust her and it feels like crap.

She doesn't trust me and it feels like crap.

We're not sleeping together and it feels like crap.

I can't remember what it feels like to kiss her, she's my wife for cripes sake.

I would never want her to feel like I do, I hope she didn't.

My kids are taking notice, I failed them.

I'm so freakin lonely.

I think I'll go run...

Dino,

Would you look for a book called "Facing Love Addiction" by Pia Mellody? I read this when I was where you are right now...no affection, reflection of me from my WH, in the middle of his A. Really helped me a lot, so I'm suggesting it for you.

Running is awesome...good healthy choice there, Dino. Congrats on the self-care and thinking of it.

The book goes to why you want her to see things the way you do, have the same perspective, beliefs...and how you can have your own and still be safe.

Because you are.

You're in the hard pain time...which drags. I remember it well. I'm so sorry. It will pass. Passes faster when you stop with all the wishing...wishing it was different; wishing she didn't, you hadn't; wishing she would or would not...wishing intensifies, prolongs pain and fear...and it isn't real. It's the antithesis of acceptance...which makes you crave that even more...affection represents acceptance, connection is acceptance...SF is acceptance...find what's underneath your desires, not just the representations...and see where you aren't giving those to yourself right now, 'k?

You've got your goal, your general plan to act from. I think now is the time to fine-tune some details for daily living and your personal recovery. What do you think?

LA

Thank you LA

I need some help. I know what I need to do, I just can't get my brain to act the way I want it to. I'll get the book, I'll do anything to help this go away, I'm so tired of crying and feeling so bad and lonely. I just hate it.
I'm just so lonely LA. I'm trying so hard to accept everything the way it is, I'm trying. I'm doing the self-care things, I run, I workout, I play softball and I stay pretty busy with my online college work. But I still miss her so bad. It hurts so bad. I take care of the kids, the house, she does too. I just can't find they way to flip that switch. I want to accept with an understanding of openness for what may come. There are things that I fear, the fear is real to me, although I know it's not real right now, so why fear? I know that in time things will pass, I want to be able to pass time without losing my love. I don't want to not love her. It's a delicate balance isn't it? If I could have one super power, I would choose the ability to read minds. If I could just know what she's thinking, good or bad.

Today I talked with the kids about what they're feeling from what they see around the house. D16 asked why we weren't sleeping together, I explained about that mom isn't feeling like hugging and kissing and that I don't want to pressure her, but I can't sleep with her without loving her so I chose to sleep downstairs. She just started bawling. I didn't know what to do. They don't know why everything is happening, just that we're having problems, thats what I told them. S14 just shrugs his shoulders. I asked them if they believed we should be together forever, they're already brainwashed by the military life and society in general, while she was crying she says "as long as you guys are happy" I got so upset. I explained that when 2 people make a promise of marriage it's supposed to be forever.
I'm not quite sure what you're saying here LA, what am I not giving myself? Are you talking about the acceptance? I know I'm beating myself up, I just can't get ahold of it. It's almost as if I talk myself into feeling sad, I feel it sometime. I quit my tobacco use and I've been taking Zyban which is supposed to be a small dose anti-depressant, not working so much. I mean, I know whats going on, I just can't find the right way FOR ME, to deal with it in a healthy way. I know I have to accept things they are what they are. No matter how I look at it, it is what it is. The only thing that is for sure is that time will go by, and SOMETHING is going to happen.

I'll get the book, I like reading anyway. Again, I admire your advice LA. Fine tuning myself is a bit far off still, I think I've got all my eggs in one basket, I think I may someone elses too. I need to figure out which are mine.

Thanks again

Dino,

The thing about loneliness...you have the belief you are alone, cut off from the other half of yourself (so you feel a constant rejection).

You are not alone. You are not cut off from any part of yourself. Hold that thought when you run, meditate, watch your children interact, see your WW right there.

I thought we had talked about you both speaking honestly with your kids. I might be confused about that. Where you both sit down and your WW explains what she did, why she did it and why it was wrong in the eyes of God, your marriage, them and what the military did and the consequences right now are.

You do it together...your presence matters. You don't speak, you listen. If she won't do this, then ask for her to be present while you explain. This is part of parenting...where you parent (not separate). Because your kids know enough to feel wiped out and upset and not know enough to understand and grip what has and is happening.

Don't do that to your kids. You have taught them honesty and they see you putting it aside to protect them. Is that not what your WW did, justified doing so as not to hurt you and the kids? Didn't you still hurt? Your kids are hurting. Let them know the facts.

What is it you think you need to do other than that right now? Your brain is handing you at crisis-speed what it thinks you want. See the love in that, 'k? Even if it isn't what you want right now. Your tears are relieving this constant stress as crisis doesn't pass, as it lasts. It's healthy.

Your feeling bad needs more distinction...identify exactly what feelings you're having and trace them to the belief they are coming from right then.

Hating your stuff is very close to hating your self. Understand there is no real solace in not wanting what has happened to have happened...no acceptance (which is NOT approval) in that. Embrace yourself and hold our wishes...know them as wishes...and pull yourself back into the present. Like holding the child within you who wanted to wish away bad stuff, being held by the adult you who knows terrible stuff happens.

I did this repeatedly...and I love physical touch as my biggest symbol of acceptance and love. So after I worked out, I'd sit in the hot tub and massage my feet...with intent and concentration...sort like a reflexology thing...to each foot, thanking them for being part of me, doing their part for my work out, and I'd do my ankles and calves, too. I also didn't want to seize up two days later...and this really helped.

I hugged myself (took yoga and it's required); rubbed lotion on my hands and arms, not distractedly...again focused on this touch, and gratitude for being part of me.

I have written of this many times on MB and feared sounding crazy. I stroked my own hair, caressed my own cheek. I went through my day at work, crying at my desk, outside on my break. I said "I am" five times aloud a day, at different times. I was breaking a deep enmeshment with my WH. Felt like surgery with a paperclip; long, painful and poorly done.

Was done, though. See as long as I looked to my partner to complete me, I wouldn't have healthy boundaries, experience equal and be in reality. And yes, I yearned, as you do now, to be touched (then I existed), be told I was loved (so I was), acknowledged and to matter to him. So I would matter.

Hear anything in this that resonates? Picture your DS thinking the same...that he didn't exist, wasn't loved, didn't matter unless someone else said he did...let me know.

Learning to be companionable to yourself is really important...it's part of knowing where you end and others begin as the separate beings they really are--you learn when you touch, you are being touched...when you speak, you already are being heard; when you acknowledge your stuff, you know you're already worth it all.

Stay present...right now. May seem unbearable--trust me, it's truly bearable. It's this moment. That's all any of us has no matter the circumstances.

I'm glad you spoke with your kids. Do it again. When you act from honesty, you will experience reality as it truly is...I believe it will help you and them. I believe they feel isolated, abandoned and lonely, too.

Fear does that.

When you talk with them with your WW, be sure hold one of their hands in yours...shows physical connection and your commitment to remain connected. We teach our children how to grieve, to mourn, to celebrate, to know and thrive. All parts we share. We can only share what we know now...and share more when we learn more. Keep sharing.

Know that you are not alone, have never been alone, nor will you be.

LA

Thank you LA, i just did this (stroking my cheek and neck) and I can't exlain it, but I felt better.
Thank you

Dino,


So much for my acronymic acrobatics, eh? UA...Undivided Attention...Dr. Harley says get 15 hours of it with your spouse per week when there isn't a crisis (healthy maintenance) and 20 hours or more of it when there is crisis...can't be tv, movies, either.

RC...Recreational Companionship...again Dr. Harley lists it as one of the ENs...where we play together...experience each other recreationally...He even made a Recreational Inventory to widen up all those choices we have...and use the UA time to RC.

As for knowing how the OM's court martial is going...I'm still confused. Infidelity is in the domain of the military (affects performance) and in the family domain. I don't understand why they wouldn't be informing you, the partner (and OM'sW) about each other's cases. I guess I'm thinking that these two families are downright important...and the military would be informing you directly and OMW directly, because they hid the affair, so why would the military depend on them to be honest with you?

Seems to me that if this is a violation of the Code of Conduct...then it's public within the military...have access. Just me wondering...not knowing. So I wasn't thinking of you getting anything out of WW, 'k? I'm a big proponent of obtaining the truth independently.


How do you know she'll scream? What she'll say? You already know she has sole autonomy over herself...she chooses moment by moment, just as you do.

That's me kicking some DJs around that we do...because we've already experienced it with our spouses...so brain says, "Oh, she'll do that again later, given the same subject, same response." Is that real in your experience of humans?

Sure can be a comforting thought--if I can just get one good experience with her, admitting she's lonely, loves me, misses me...then that will be her response forever.

Up to you in your personal recovery to see where you falsely comfort (choose where your thoughts dwell) and where you really heal (in the present, in reality). We have thousands of these in us...predicting, mindreading, estimating and projecting. All to make us feel better right now when we're where we have no control--in the future.

I think I feel a lot of frustration when I do this to myself...start that trippy loop with no end.

Your marital plan is NC for life. Half her responsiblity and half yours. Know your half. When you know what is within your power, your limits, then the predicting, mindreading, estimating and projecting drop off. Unnecessary.

Reality is a welcome relief to emotional torment and injury.

Share your tools, Dino. You fear wrong time, place, tone, words...share, anyway. Seriously. Your self-negation is hurting you tremendously...and you see her doing it to you. Please affirm and connect...that's within your province of choice...for you, about you, half your marriage and marital recovery.

I remember "grasping" when I was in this stage of recovery...my mother used to say that phrase a lot "you're grasping at straws" to build my case. I was stunned at how I felt when WH allowed me to massage his feet one night. And when he didn't curl his lips one time that I expected him to...and I flipped that signal over in myself...I had discounted a lot of tiny stuff he did throughout our marriage...I lost the wonderment of him, new every day, and blocked his tiny deposits for me looking for the big ones.

When I acted in the tiniest ways with clarity and awareness, all these ways I was already being loved opened up...I didn't argue them away...I listened to MYSELF and heard the ways I was starving myself, seemingly of love, when really, it was reality.

Doesn't mean I was a crumb-clencher...wasn't about setting boundaries or requirements...was true amazement at the privilege, not the right, I had to see my DH, for him to be present. All parts...which means I could see my own preciousness in staying present, too.

Comes from me saying, "What do I do next?" and MC saying, "Are you a human doing or a human being?" See, the way I treated myself was how I treated DH..."Yeah, but what is he gonna do next?"

We often say, "I love being with you" and there's no real doing, is there? Yet when conflict comes, suddenly we gotta do work, do awareness, research, know and study what we didn't do to stop doing or not doing...and it's a mad sprint of a thousand legs in our minds at once.

We are beings, Dino. We be. Doesn't mean we don't do...means reality is we be no matter what, and who we are being with matters. Tiny choices of love going on here, Dino. Get to see your own, do not criticize or mock yourself for seeing minutely what you overlooked, possibly for years. Everything matters because everyone matters. Cherish and know what you did not before. It's okay. Only thing...speak of it...speak of what your experience is right now.

"What a shame" triggers me...it's a judgment. What isn't right now, isn't right now. It was, can be again. Isn't right now. This was how I missed my own grieving process and kept reliving that which I DID NOT WANT to experience.

I hid behind these judgments...labeling them, not understanding.

You are grieving loss...from your expectations, your dreams, your self and your marriage. Each action isn't loss...because you can do it yourself until she chooses or not.

The more aware you are of yourself, what you really do inside (for if you're judging others', you are certainly judging yourself...which hurts, btw...adds to your pain and ups your urge to stop feeling pain NOW! Hey, look...your feelings are coming from you...check 'em out. They're valid and real...and trying again and again like desperate messengers to deliver the information they are.)

Answering our own doors, sorta. Amazing. Some of those are deliveries from when you were a boy and a teen, even. I think you got some intense tipping to do, Dino.



LA

Lildoggie,

Thank you for reading and trying something new. That's good self-care, too. I know you're hurting a lot, over a long period...be good to yourself in healthy ways and you will find more about yourself you didn't know.

Trust in advance you are already stronger, smarter, more dedicated and braver than you think you are today. It's true.

LA

Hey LA, and please just call me Lil
thank you for the response with my name in it, or I might have missed it. It reminded me that I havent done it yet today.
Aaah, I feel better now.

Having several epithanies today. I feel good.
Hope you do too.

LA
Thanks... we seem to get plenty of RC. Really do enjoy the time together. UA is another story. We've done a few things alone but both parties have to be willing. She is not. As of now, we don't have a marriage from my POV. I'm hoping that some of the interaction between us is having a positive impact on her but everytime we sit to have a R talk, I am once again hit with reality.
There isn't any regulation saying they have to inform anyone. The results of any legal procedings are posted on a monthly blotter for each base but since he's at a different base, i don't see it. Truthfully, what happens with him has no bearing on me or us. I could really care less. He could disappear and it wouldn't change our situation a bit.
Any sure fire way to handle this? If I knew how to do it, this wouldn't be a problem. I understand the concept, just have a huge problem being consistent. I'm banking that it gets better with time and effort. LA, I can't seem to find the right place for me. I think I'm still in the denial stage, not accepting what is reality. Probably why I'm in such turmoil. Like someone who is told they won't walk again, there's always hope, but reality is there in that wheelchair.
It's hard to define what my reality is but I'll try. I'm living with a person who used to be my wife. I don't know if she wants to stay married to me because she doesn't know if she wants to stay married to me. I do not know her, I thought I did but I was sorely mistaken. We are still together, she is here. She has no other option right now, neither do I. I want to stay married to her. I feel like crap everyday. I am obssessed with her and our marriage, i can think of nothing else. I'm doing better than I give myself credit for. She tells me I'm the perfect husband/father, still doesn't know if she wants to stay with me. We have no physical relationship, at all. I'm not ready to give up. Much of what you've said is a little over my head LA. Very deep. I do know this, I torture myself but I can't help it. I think I'm getting better and then I fall apart again. I want to kiss her sometimes and I do, then I feel like crap because she doesn't recip. I convey this to her, she says to do what I feel. I try not to expect anything but it all hurts, I've not progressed as much as I thought. She never says she loves me, no matter how I try to accept that as reality, I can't and it hurts like heck. I read into everything, every act, every breath, every step. I recognize it but am powerless it seems, sometimes. I know the power of hatred and I'm afraid of it. Afraid that my strength will wane and hatred will protect me from pain as it has done so many times. Feels good to speak of it, keeps me aware.

We had a talk this weekend. Seems we are in no different a place than we were a month ago. She is uncommitted, says I have no idea what she is going through. Talks of her guilt, anger, she believes I'll never get past what's happened. Doesn't think she'll ever be able to accept what she's become, may never forgive herslef as she has never forgiven me. I ask her to talk to someone, she finally said she may, but doesn't see how it will help her. Says noone can make her heal inside. Keeps saying she needs to be by herself, wants to stay asleep and have no thoughts, period. She just doesn't understand, think things will work out naturally and if we fall back in love, then we do. She knows I won't be able to live like this forever but makes no concession to try. It's as if we're in a waiting game to see who will give up and end it. I tell her I will work at it until she walks away, she tells me she doesn't need that pressure, tell me not to try to do anything, just be myself, act normal. What does act normal mean? Be happy she says, my sadness puts presure on her she says and I'm the one saying sorry. She's much stronger than me and it scares me. She says she can live like this forever, says she's done it for years. Even says she's stay with me just to make sure I didn't fall apart, would stay with me if I asked her to, but wouldn't be the wife I want. Talked about our move, options, kids, school etc. Living arrangements, she still plans on living together until ??? I don't know what the trigger point is. I want to buy a house when I get back but now I can't commit to it. Reality is that we're still moving together as of now, depending on my assignment, her and the kids may go home to Arizona, we'll see. I say we should have a pretty good idea where our relationship is by the time we're leaving here, she gets upset because she says that just being here with her job and all the triggers of this place and that I shouldn't ask her to make a choice while she's still under emotional distress, like some magic wand is supposed to wave over us when we leave here. I explained to her that even if we hugged and kissed and vowed together to save our marriage, it would still take years, nothing magic is going to happen when we leave here. She seemed to take it in but who knows. I share all I've learned here on MB with her, she says she understands but none of it has effect on someone who is uncommitted. Told her i spoke with the kids about my sleeping separately, she was unaffected. I asked her if she has told anyone in her family about what she did, she said no, I asked if it would do us good to come clean to the family, she said they don't need to be stressed about our business. She believes everyone has the right to their own privacy. Very protective of hers, I believe this to be leftover post deployment stress. I really believe she hasn't reintegrated into her home reality yet. She was used to worrying only of herself for almost 8 months, the burdens of home and her A are too much for her, she isn't coping well. Neither am I. My only concern is to make it out of here emotionally intact, with our marriage still in a reparable state. That is now my only goal. This is going to be stressful.

I rambling so much right now. Not quite sure what we even discussed or if anything came of it. I share everything, she shares nothing, I don't know what she's going through and she won't tell me. She can have no doubt about my intentions and my reasoning for them. There is nothing I can do. I can only go day to day, my actions speak for themselves. I have to get a grip on my thoughts, they will be my downfall.
You're right about this, at times I just tell myself that I want the hurt to go away, no matter what it takes. How do you control feelings? Hurt, pain, anger? Are these really conscious choices we make? Do I hurt because I choose to? It makes sense but at the same time, why would anyone WANT to hurt? I think I understand but valid feelings are hard to counteract, as humans we feel. Judging others is easy to do but not easy to stop, especially in a situation like this. And yes, judging others does add to my pain, manufactures feelings out of something that is not there, not really. 20 yrs of routine are hard to counteract.
Please expand on this LA, I'm not quite sure where this leads...

It sounds to me like the only thing that's going to make a difference is for her to see a therapist, and possibly get on some anti-depressants. Everything is stagnant until she gets moving beyond this wall she's facing.

Cat

I think I have to agree with you. Our last talk was the first time she even mentioned the possibility of talking to ayone so that in itself is some kind of progress. Never mind that she bellyached about how it won't do any good. She doesn't believe that anyone can make her change how she feels, she's right on tha aspect, noone can "make" her do anything. But at least she's talking about it. Maybe after she talks about it for awhile she'll actually do it.

The picture is slowly coming into focus for me though. I'm a good husband and a great father. Our marriage wasn't that bad no matter what she says. I'm friggen devastated and don't know exactly how I'll get through all of this but I will. If she decides to walk away, she will be the loser but our whole family will pay the price. I don't believe she is ready to do that but it seems I didn't know her as well as I thought. Novemeber will be a telling month for our family. We'll see...

thanks cat

I speak to the kids on my own. Wife doesn't want to tell, wants to keep it from them. I just reassure them and let them know we're working on problems. She is not onboard with anything, don't kow if she ever will be. I'm slowly sharing my knowledge and thoughts with her. I'm hoping that she takes it in, processes it in a positive way. We'll see. If not, I will tell the kids myself, will have to if we split. I WILL do this everytime. Most times when I think about it, I can talk sense into myself. There are times that the feeling is just overwhelming, nothing specific, just a sadness. I know what you're saying LA, I miss it so much. I miss her. I know she doesn't make me. I know I'll be ok but I haven't gotten past the "want" yet. I'll get there, and I know I'm prolonging the pain but I have to find a healthy way to let it go. I don't want to lose my love for her LA, I don't. IWILL get to a healthy place that I can keep a balance between loving and waiting. Good analogy for DS, kind of puts things in perspective. I would beg my kids never to put themselves in the same position I've put myself into. But we never do it on purpose do we? We just kind of mutate into this needy, self-loathing form we used to call "me" and don't recognize it until it's too late. It's never too late though right? Just a difference in recovery time. I WILL FIND THE BOUNDARY BETWEEN US, WE ARE ONE MADE UP OF TWO, TOGETHER, YET SEPARATE. She was so much a part of everything I did. I waited 7 months for her return and someone else showed up. I miss my wife. She's been gone for 14 months now, 7 away, 7 here. 20 yrs of habit has to be dealt with. I'm GOING TO BREAK FREE OF THIS BY CONSCIOUS THOUGHT I AM TAKING CARE of MY kids the best I can. They know they can come to me about anything. They also know mom is in a different place. I ask them to be patient. As parents, we are not changed in behavior. We still act as a team and would never undermine the others efforts for anything. One day they will know the truth, hopefully it's under good circumstances with a happy ending.

LA, I can't begin to express my gratitude for the time you take to help me. I look forward to your words more than you know. I'm caught in a storm right now and you're helping to keep me afloat. Hope hurts, wishing stings, expecting is just plain painful. Reality can be a tough pill but I guess it can help too can't it.

Thanks again LA

Dino,

You said you're having difficult with reality. Totally understandable. Our brains really do not know the difference. That's focus and limits, I think, to get there when you're in pain time.

So...here's your plan for right now...

First, do Yoda (no, you don't have to breathe and stretch)..."There is no try" is the truth. Humans do and don't do. Or, if you prefer another way, "To try is to lie." And that's lying to yourself, btw.

So, go back over your last post and each "try" say "I do" or "I don't." It's a wonderful exercise of getting into a reality mindset. Tells your brain that you know you do and don't do. You are doing. You are being. You really are. That's reality. Not just yours.

After revising your last post to yourself (and if you wanna summarize in another post to solidify this truth, feel free to do so. Our brains pay attention to what we repeat...which is why when crisis hits, we tell our brains "Think A-related stuff all the time." And for that initial DDay comprehension time, which to our fears feels life threatening, that's essential. You are many months past that, in a chosen limbo for right now...don't stay in crisis state--we aren't built for it.

So tell your brain, "I want awareness, right now, in the present. I want to be alert and highly aware of right now...not the past or the future." Again, takes repetition.

Next, state your choices aloud. "I am choosing to not tell my kids the truth." That's ownership, not a condemnation. Again, that hugs the truth and differentiates it from her truth...her choice to not tell. To protect...like she kept the truth from you and everyone about her choice to have an affair. Your choices are fine as long as you own them for what they are...and not open-ended (which is fantasy-minded). "I will tell the kids the truth on November 25th at 5pm and I will explain why I withheld the truth from them at that time, as well."

See, that's not living in the future. That's goal setting...solid choice as to what you're doing right now or not. And that explanation you already have because you're already making the choice. Write it down...read it and see it. I think this will relieve some of your obsessing and looping...gripping reality does that.

Use this truth of do and not do. "My wife is married to me." She is. "I am married to my wife." You are. "Our union remains a union." It does.

When you indulge your obsessive thoughts with DJs like "This isn't a marriage" catch yourself and say, "That's not reality. We are married. Our marriage is real." Then go further to capture what you really mean underneath the fantasy "I miss our old marriage, the way we were with each other before my A." If that's what you're saying, then state it that way. Your experience right now is valid...it's real. Up to you to not hide within DJs what you're really experiencing and what you're not.

Or it might be, "I think I am hurting right now from knowing more and believing we can have this awesome marriage, which we haven't even experienced yet and fearing it won't happen. No redemption possibility for you or for me."

Again...statements...knowing you isn't scary. You're not. You sure may treat your stuff like you are...afraid of more pain, more fear, more anger...heck, your signals are already on tilt, how much more can there really be?

Dig in and feast on who you are, where your signals are coming from (find those DJs and state them...catch them red-handed and say to brain, See? This isn't what I want. This is not who I am).

Since you've consciously chosen this hang-time, then I urge you again to take your focus off of expected/desired response of others. Period. Nobody else but you. "I'm choosing to kiss my wife goodbye." Be fully present and aware...and you will experience affection and attention from your choice to kiss her...not based on her possible response.

Same for all your acts of love..."I choose to love my wife and act from it right now." You can catch yourself straying when you hear in your thoughts, "You"...any "You" statements towards her. Let that be your signal to catch the straying focus and rope it back.

From another thread, I recently discovered that my focus really doesn't escape me...it gets pushed into it's old stomping grounds (on others) by resentment. Resentment actually pushes it over without me feeling it...so I can nurture my own resentment. How 'bout that?

I am deeply grateful for MB, for all posters sharing their stuff, acting from their honesty and acting bravely. Enhances my life, continues my healing and helping my marriage. What I shared with you I can spiral into even today...from DH doing/not doing something...that's how fast my focus can shift...might be menopause.



Okay...it's my own habit of a lifetime telling myself "Others cause me pain. Others control my pain. Others cure my pain." Then who the heck's pain is it, really?

LOL

LA

LA, this was a quote off of another thread I was reading. Couldn't fit us any better, just thought I'd share it with you. Sometimes I feel very ashamed for not telling my kids the "brutal" truth but I also want to protect my wife. I'm not quite sure how to put it. The quote was accurate except the recovery part, I would like that part to be prophecy for us. I shame myself with statements like that, childish rantings really. I know we're still married, i know reality is that it's no where near over yet, much is left to do no matter what direction we go. Wishful, foolish thinking bring on those statements, crying and regret, self-pity and anger all rolled into one brain. I do own that decision, for myself. I will tell my kids the full truth if we decide to split, I will also share with them my transgressions of the past, I will do that anyway. I'll use this everyday, thank you. Another good tool for me, I can use all the tools I can get. This is my main downfall, expectations are like snakes in the grass, the grass looks so nice so you take your shoes off and walk on bare feet, BAM!! Snakebite, only difference is that the snake belongs to you and you knew it was there and chose to walk bare footed anyway. I choose to love my wife, whether she likes it or not. I choose not to let her reaction to that love matter to me.How appropriate. How very poignant for what I experience everyday. Pain, generated by me, blamed on someone else? Emotional pain is just brainwaves right? Even physical pain can be controlled, although I'm much better at that.

Once again LA, you've managed to help my next few days a be little easier. Like much of the things I've learned from MB, I know what needs to be done, just had to read it to be able to see it. Kind of like putting a bike together, I'm pretty sure I can recognize all the parts, but now that I have the manual, I feel really confident about doing it. I'll update that last post, I'm curious about what I wrote because I can't seem to remember. I'll also keep my head straight thanks to you.

Thanks LA

Nothing big, just a good quote I wanted to have on my thread and to share with those who read it.

ciao

Dino,


Got it. In my prayers for you both to get to thriving through NC so Recovery can begin. Absolutely.

Brutal truth...is in the details. I wasn't recommending any details. Just ownership, "Five years ago I had an A. I harmed your mother, you guys and my marriage. I harmed myself. Last year, your mother had an A. We are both committed to recovering our marriage and working through all the pain, destruction and disconnection resulting from both of our choices."

No details. I didn't think to say that until you quoted it. See, teens already know she's had A, btw. I don't know why you assume they don't know...like you, they don't know if she's continuing it, saving money to leave them, going to the other guy or finding a new guy. They just know something really big has happened...their mother was in trouble with her work, you're hurting a whole lot...and maybe they did something to drive her away from the family. Children have emotional sonar with their parents. They know in detail what your frustration, helplessness, hurt, fears and joy look like. They've studied you...for you were the first to name these things, demonstrate and example them so they knew them in themselves.

I understand you want to protect the image of your wife as their mother in their eyes. Do you fear they will change in their love for their mother? For you? Do you think less of them than you do of yourself...for you know and you choose to love her, anyway. They don't really have a choice...that's my experience in this life...the parental bond is unbreakable, even when it is terribly destructive and repeatedly abusive. God's design, not mine. Not true for partnering, is true for our parents...and our children. They may go through growing times when we don't even want to know them...we love them, anyway.

Amazing how we think we're protecting (controlling) one image and don't see where we are negating active, real forgiveness because we're looking at it one way, not all ways. We can cause more harm when we try to protect others of a certain age...and your two teens can know and forgive, anyway. Why? Because of God's design.

Your WW can not only be not divorced, not lose everything, split up her family...she can be loved, anyway, by her BH and her children. Tremendous grace in our lives, unless you want to cut it out.

You have to process your own grief...you can process family grief as a family, marital grief as a team...or you can protect others from the truth of actions, and later they will find out anyway, as you have told them--the truth always comes to light. Not our truth...the truth does.

This is for you to ponder--not me forcing my POV. I understand you've decided to only tell them the truth if you divorce. I accept your choices right now...they can change as you know more, have more clarity, less reactivity and not choose from a feeling. You can choose to know where that feeling is coming from, what beliefs you have, and if they are valid and in line with what you've already taught your children or not.

We teach our kids a lot of which we don't do ourselves, when push comes to shove. Makes a world of difference to be shown, not told, too. We grow as a family by each growing individually from our code.

We don't do it overnight, either.

When I learned how destructive DJs were to relationships, I saw where they were also destructive to my children...assuming who they are, what they wanted to know, didn't want to know...showed me how disrespectful I was of them, often treating them reactively as if they were younger than they are today...and I still fight my assumptions from experiencing them before, routinely. I fight that in myself with my DH. We have two decades...living with my kids and husband longer than I lived with my family of origin (FOO).

What is your payoff in shaming yourself and is it a real payoff? I found I regularly lived in shame and so I shamed others, too. I did it through comparison, judgment and DJs. Breaking the shame was essential and only possible for me from my DH's infidelity. Like the ultimate shame for me, somehow. Had to see the bludgeon of shame in my hand, though, in my head...another snake in my grass as you say...to understand and free myself of a shame habit, which wasn't really mine to begin with.

Feels awesome, Dino.


Are you saying that you are at times wishful of not being married, hence the statement? That would make a world of sense, wouldn't it? Reasonable even. "I wish this wasn't real." That's good to know...no shame in that...it's a comforting fantasy kicking your heart. Take its shoes off. Foolish? What is foolish to you? And are you saying from that thinking comes those emotions--self-pity, anger...or that they cause you to think those things?


When you're in Recovery, building a new, thriving marriage, her feelings of love and being loved will matter. They are half your marriage. And your partner matters. Won't affect for a second your choice to love her not. Will definitely affect your love bank. Two separate things. It's like you're getting practice hearing and knowing her stuff as hers...fantasy or reality based doesn't matter...it's her stuff. In Recovery, that respect continues...only with recommitment, you get to dialogue and POJA. Right now, big acceptance that her feelings really are coming from her, about her, from her own thinking.

Ahhh...just like yours are yours. Which is great to know...your actions aren't dependent on her beliefs, mood, or perceptions...for you cannot control, ever, where her thoughts dwell.

How was it for you when your thoughts dwelled outside your marriage? And then when they dwelled on your guilt, or when they do on your shame right now? Where your thoughts dwell, there is your treasure...tells your brain where you want to dwell, your highest priority. It's how we really can put resentment, entitlement, anger, anything ahead of our marriage...look out for those snakes in your grass. They've been there all along...time to tame them...say, "I know you're a part of me. I'm just not going to use you to bite others or myself anymore, 'k?"

Tools with fangs.

Think about them as tools with fangs for a moment...tools of false manipulation, control, cause, cure, getting love from, out of, changing others...have you used those tools? And now, you're laying them down...for what you used on others, you've been using on yourself. Adding to your pain. Lay them down...they weren't real...you created those tools, took them on, when you were like...I dunno...four years old? You want desperately for your WW to get out of fantasy...see where your own is, too...use this time for seeing really what tool you reach for automatically. And smile, then lay it down.

We love ourselves to healing from knowing more about ourselves, how marriages work, how relationships work. We guard our weaknesses as an act of love and honor...not so we won't be bad or wrong. We learn to trust ourselves from repeatedly acting with awareness from love and respect...and we make new automatics...even making doing the right thing an automatic. We won't get to blind trust...for blindness is what we did when we self-deceived (like thinking DJs were the truth, were reality)...we know self-deception (denial) in small, limited qualities is healthy...when facing deep crisis (death, divorce)...saying, "This can't be" for a short time is essential to grieving...first step...we just kept using that tool a lot longer.

I look forward to you redoing your previous post with "I do/I don'ts" instead of try. I found it very healing and affirming...lemme know your experience, 'k?


Our pain comes from us, generated from our beliefs...it's real, and it really hurts. We believe in the sanctity of marriage, so betrayal hurts when we discover it, and continues as it continues. No fresh wound can heal when it's continually reinjured. Doesn't mean we'll die of it...though that may look tempting at times. Means we didn't see the wound's first strike...we can protect it from the next and next through our own choices. I believe we double our pain through our wishfulness...not foolish...just a tool, again, used against us and others to an extreme. So I believe we can halve our pain right now by getting the signal, tracing it to the beliefs its coming from and know it's not forever, just right now, and often, there's a belief sitting there from before we had any adult experiences.

Beliefs are not our wishfulness...we don't wish we believed, really...we choose to a belief and live from it. They are powerful...have flip sides...a belief cannot be true for us only one-way...both sides must be what we believe.

When we see others as at fault for what is within us, we negate we are...and feel even more abandoned, powerless, done to...what your WW was attack your marriage, your union. Step out and see her not doing to you right now...or not doing for you...see her as breaking her vows to the union daily. And know what she does to the union, she also does to herself. She isn't loving, understanding, acting from either in herself, either.

Hope that helps. And look to see where, if you're into blame (it's fantasy), you're taking too much so you can feel more weight in your existence, more false power. You're only responsible for you...honestly, God's design...and ownership is real, blame is false. I believe believing you can control your emotions brought you to right here, right now...and I would borrow Dr. Phil's famous phrase, "How's that working for you?"

If we attempt to control, change and not feel...then we are actively thwarting our signals to our own selves...letting us know what we're really thinking and believing, choosing to perceive and view. How in the world would that be in God's design and purpose to have an intimate relationship with us? What, we amp up loving feelings for him and squelch the ones we don't want to feel? Real relationships have real feelings...as information. Our own gauge of, "How's that thinking working for me?" That's our responsibility, getting that information...what it means...what its signalling us...like a filled love bank...when you feel a lot of loving feelings...it's YOUR bank...you let the deposits in and made some yourself. Says, "Hey, I'm made of love and loving"...and then you KNOW you're already loved fully and well. Those feelings drop off, love bank falls...look first to what you're doing, if you're robbing yourself, stopped acting from love and began acting to GET love (which tells self you aren't loved, doesn't it?)...great reality check.

Physical pain can be from emotional pain, too...and mental anguish...and spiritual disownment. When we separate ourselves, we feel it in all of us...if you separate Affection into just physical touch, you lose affection within words (audible), taste (an act of service), sight (a smile), even a smell (the phermones of your loved ones...I'm thinking of my sweaty sons when they bumped my shoulder and smiled)...see where you may be cutting out when your wishfulness thinks cutting off is safe.

And no wonder we look for quick-fixes and overnight cures...Ibruprofen can mask your sore shoulder, your arthritic knee...know it only relieves the sympton, does not cure the cause...which what you're looking at right now. To truly understand and know where you cause, control and cure within yourself...so you don't mask.

LA

I never thought of this, I still see both of them as my little babies. My heart is breaking right now. My wife and I will sit them down sometime and speak with them. The kids are one of the few things that we have a POJA on. No LA, I've never wished I wasn't married. I was just commenting on why I make those childish remarks. Saying that this isn't a marriage is just a selfish justification to think bad things. i never feel foolish for having the feelings, they are real. What's foolish is reacting to them because of what is not real. It's ok to feel sad, hurt, regret. But I need to use them as you said, to find the cause and act on that. True, but we are NOT in recovery yet. I'm just showing her my stuff. Letting her see my commitment, that I am not acting on reward. If we were in recovery, she would care about the effect her actions have on me. I just DJ'd didn't I? Actually, she does care about the effects she has on me. She has told me that she's afraid that any physical contact on her part may be miscontrued by me as a signal of recovery, that everything is now ok and she says she doesn't want to give me false security. I respect that. I WILL take her actions at face value. She has been a little more affectionate the last 2 days, why? Does it matter? She has hugged me and last night she came downstairs and slept with me, she was gone when I woke but she let me put my arm around her and lay next to her. I felt so good this morning. Why better today than any other day? Our sitch is the same from my POV. These are all questions I need to answer. Wow, like a slap in the face. This is what happened to me! I kept acting to get love and not from love. My self esteem plummeted, I became bitter because I felt I wasn't loved, but I wasn't loving myself either. I became jealous, couldn't understand how she couldn't love me better. I was disrespecting myself by feeling that only her love could make me worthy of love....wow. She loved me then as she loves me now. I pushed her away from me with my disrespect not only for her but for myself. I believe this is where she says that I have "lost" myself and that I don't know who I am anymore. Says that my confidence is one of the things that attracted her to me in the first place. I have alot of work to do. I have backed myself into a dark corner on my own.

I believe I have deciphered the underlying theme of many of your posts LA. I've read them over and over and it's always been just at my finger tips, but the cryptic and stylish way you present things baited my mind not to jump to conclusions.

No one person anywhere is strong enough to control my thoughts, emotions, feelings, beliefs or anything else that is mine. Some can affect (I choose who), but none can control.

My actions are mine. I choose what I do, what I accept. Alot of old filth and grime to dig through though. Habitual use of those fanged tools is hard to break, awareness was my first step. I took that first step when I first read the MB principles. Many things are lumped together right now for me. Slowly they are being grouped into manageable sections with your help and others here. Gosh it seems so simple. Recognize the bad thoughts as a signal to defend myself from their destructive ways. Do I have that right? Know that they're there but don't allow them to affect my actions? Sounds like a good exercise for me, more work, less thinking.

Thanks again LA

You know what you sound like you would benefit from? Finding a master of meditation who will train you to redirect your thoughts to find 'the truth.' You're in London, right? There must be a lot of people who deal with that there. You sound like you're right on the verge of that kind of breakthrough you get with meditation; trying it just might help you reach your epiphany.

I have a book someone here recommended called Emotional Alchemy, which is really good about that kind of thing. I highly recommend it.

cat

What exactly is the "truth" that I'm missing? I'm not being sarcastic, I'm truly intersted in your thoughts. Is there something I haven't thought about?

The only thing that I am absolutely sure of is that for the next 4 months, my hands are tied. My truth is that I am an emotional wreck and I have yet to find the way to make my mind right. I have this overwhelming feeling that my life is going to come crashing down in november. We'll see.

Well, in more ethereal terms, the truth would be your core essence, the truth about you that has nothing to do with any earthly goings on - the truth that you are human being, as valued as any other human being who has ever been born, and that your truth is amazing and miraculous. Oy, LA says this stuff much better!

When I'm having a bad time, I use this philosophy to step back from 'me' and all its trouble and baggage, and look at 'real me' in perspective to the whole world, and my issues don't seem so bad. Kind of like counting your blessings. I'm alive; I'm not sick; I have the capacity to make a difference in this world somehow (just have to figure what it is); I HAVE made a difference for some people; I live in a great country; I have the option to move anywhere in the world and start over if I want; I could go back to school and learn to be a landscape designer like I really want, if I choose to; etc.

Kind of like when I say divorce isn't death. Yes, it hurts you to the core. It may make you want to die. But it isn't death. Death is the ultimate punishment/result, so anything short of that is you getting another chance to wake up the next day and find a new future for yourself.

That's what meditation can help you find - that peace of mind, the truth of you in this world, taking you out of the emotion you're in and moving you over to the thoughts. Hope that makes sense.

The book I recommended is all about mindfulness, which is what I think you could benefit from. Here's some info on mindfulness and meditation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mindfulness

I spend most of my days wondering how we got to this point. Dissecting, poking, investigating. Maybe I'm just pig headed but no matter how subjectively I look at things, I still can't figure that our marriage got this bad. Bad enough to do something as horrible as she did. I think about it alot and I keep coming to the same conclusion, IT DIDN'T GET THAT BAD!

I really enjoyed my 23 yrs in the military but now I can't stand it. My WW affair is the biggest reason. The war that's going on and the family separation it causes, it's like a cancer. It's not an excuse to do wrong and she has no excuse for what she did, but if she had not been forced to be away for so long, this wouldn't have happened. Actually, I don't know that, but that's what I believe so that is my reality. If she had been home with me, we could have done something different, more civil, more constructive. She's different now. Like a shadow is over her, she is dying inside and I can't help. She made some choices in a different environment, not a reality now, but a reality for her at the time. Me and the kids were on the other side of the world, we were just voices on the phone, email readings, easy to be dishonest when you don't have to look into anyones eyes, when you don't have to see what you are hurting, what you are giving up, what you are losing. Easy to justify doing wrong when reality isn't staring you in the face.

My wife is a casualty of war. It remains to be seen if our marriage suffers the same fate, if my kids join the many that have lost because of this war and wars past. I can hardly stand to watch the news, about Afganistan or any other thing that happens over there. I am not proud to wear this uniform anymore, just me of course, but it feels dirty. I used to be so proud of her, actually I still am, she made a terrible mistake, one that I hope to forgive over time. I'm proud of the things she's accomplished over the years. I am saddened that when she leaves, there will be no celebration, no looking back at a stellar career. We will see only heartache. There will be no laughing and crying and smiling for all the good memories. Only the memories of what slammed the door on a heroes goodbye.

Humans are crazy creatures. Very self centered and self serving if given the chance. I used to not think that of my wife, she only gave, would never break. She is human after all, flawed as I am. Selfish as I was. Why do I attach so much of my value to her? What has happened over the last few years that has me doing that? I never used to be like that. I honestly didn't used to give a damn what she thought about anything, and she loved me for it. Such conflicting signals for a young man. As I grew older, I became more attuned to her needs, changed my behaviors, helped more, stayed home more. Became attached, enmeshed, one. Now I can't break free of it, not yet anyway. I'm working on it, getting better.

After everything I've learned and everything I have to work on yet, I've still not come up with the answer to one thing; how do I keep from being so sad about this whole thing? All the circumstances surrounding what has happened mean little to me really, think about them sometimes, I think about the A sometimes, even manage to picture in my head the way her face looked when she was with him, how she smelled or laughed or touched him. I picture her looking at him the way she used to look at me years ago. It hurts deeply when I do that, but it goes away fast. But the sadness never goes away. Like a low hum that vibrates my soul, all day, everyday. From the time I wake until the minute I slip into sleep. I sleep fine now. Still not enough but I never have gotten enough sleep. Sadness that clings to me. Sadness that something wrong has happened and needs to be righted. It's hard to explain, I was sad when I had to put my dog to sleep and nothing could prevent that, same feeling about this. It will get better with time I think. It has already gotten better over the last few months, mostly because I can keep my mind occupied easier than before. I still cry everyday, everyday. She knows it, it hurts her but I cry anyway, it hurts but it feels good at the same time. Feels good because I like knowing that I care that much about her. I would hate to find out that after 20 yrs, I could find it easy to walk away. Sometimes I cry for things that aren't real. I'll admit that I still find myself expecting, foretelling, reminiscing. All of which make me sad but at least I recognize when I'm doing it now. Like most people, I get triggered by alot of things, radio songs mostly. I wonder if she listens to the same song about the girl leaving her man because he hurt her so, and I wonder if she sings it out while she drives, thinking about how she's leaving me. Stupid, but I do it. I am so emotional now, it's like we swtiched bodies and minds. She's so hard and I'm such a wuss. I cry at everything, she makes fun of me but we laugh. It's like I finally see all the wonderful things I've missed and it makes me sad, but happy at the same time.

I hold hope for my baby though. I believe she will make the right choices, I think she will choose in favor of the family and for us. Maybe I'm in the BS fog. I don't know. Sometimes I picture her as this sneaky , coniving, lying woman whos spends every minute trying to talk to him, to sneak a minute on the phone, or a minute on the email. Those kinds of thoughts drain me, make me sick, I wish I would never have them again. I feel myself wanting to snoop around but I stop and think to myself, why? Why? Has she done anything to bring this action on? Have you caught her lying? No to all, she could be doing all these things, but in the end, they are her choices and I truly believe that it comes around. Kharma is around us. It happened to me, it happened to her. Murphy's law reigns supreme.

I will never think of her A as a blessing, never. I'd cut both my legs off if I could save both of us from what's happened in the last year. We can move on and be better from this. I've told her and I hope she can see the light. I made my mistakes, we made more to get past them. She made her mistakes and I don't want to make the same ones we made before. I hope she doesn't compound her mistakes by making even more terrible ones by giving up our marriage for it. We can and should get through anything. We can do anything together, no matter how long it takes. But I can only do it by myself for so long, I cannot survive this marriage alone, it just doesn't work with only one person.

Fake it till you make it. Makes sense in ways only a BS can understand. She tells me she faked it for years, hurts real bad to hear that. Who knows whats real anymore. If I really did make her feel bad enough to have to fake it, I deserve to be punished, if she felt even half as bad as I feel because of me, I should be punished. Anyway, just a day of reflection, not a bad day. I cried my usual tears, nothing too bad, just an outlet. I wonder about her, what she's thinking, if she thinks of me like I think of her. Should a 42 yr old man still have these thoughts? That's how I feel about her, the same as I did in 1988 when I first kissed her. How did I let things get so messed up?

Nothing I can do about all that now. Where we go from here is all that's important. I have hopes and dreams. I'm not even sure if I really can get past what she did, but I'm down for a fight. I'll jump in and take some lumps. It's worth it. She's worth it. My kids and I are worth it, we as a family are worth it.

Ciao

Hi Dino!

I am just checking in to let you know that I am thinking of you and hoping you are doing well. From reading your last stream-of-consciousness post, I honestly do think you sound better now than you did even a few weeks ago. You seem more aware of your thoughts and feelings. Anyway, be good to yourself. It will still be months before your feelings settle down and you really know what's what. I agree that it is silly to ever call an affair a blessing ... it's a horrible event. It's a metaphorical massacre of your marriage. It's right and proper that you feel as sad as you do, but it's also right and proper that you accept what's happened (not accepting isn't going to make it go away, it'll just sap your energy) and learn what lessons you need to in order to prevent it from happening again. I don't know ... maybe you need a little more time to give you perspective before you're really able to make an accurate survey and can see what mistakes were made and what you could have done better.

Sometimes the wisest thing you can do is admit what you don't know ... LOL!

So, I got this book "Facing love addiction", LA suggested it to me. I'm about 3/4 through it and much of it is very interesting. There is alot that rings true for me, things that I already knew. It helps sometimes to actually read what you feel, kind of solidifies things you maybe thought were true but were unsure of because of the turmoil you've been going through since all this stuff began. I always treat my books as sort of research projects, I read and highlight and go back to reread the things that are important to me.

Anyway, little things happen along the path that open your eyes. Imagine that you're holding a flashlight in a dark room and the end is flat on the ground. There is very little light escaping the sides. As you progress, you begin to pull the light further and further away from the ground and the circle of light becomes bigger and bigger. As this light circle becomes bigger, you begin to see more and more as things come into your view, sometimes the things are good sometimes they are bad. Either way, you see things you didn't see before. Which brings me to my next point.

After reading through this book, some thoughts entered my mind that haven't been there since the beginning of this freakin nightmare. Slowly but surely I'm getting better, in my head and in my body. For the first time, i thought to myself, "what happens when I finally get my [censored] together and I figure out that I don't want to stay with her, that I don't want to forgive her". It kind of shocked me. I don't know if its just a feeling of revenge, or a defense mechanism, or it's a voice of reason finally speaking to me. I don't know. I already have enough on my mind, I really don't need anything else, but it was a little refreshing to tell you the truth. I guess it was a change from the usual depressing thoughts. I'm wondering if this is just a natural progression of feelings when someone goes through this situation? Don't get me wrong, I haven't changed my mind, I still want this to work out as bad as ever.

I am thinking about the actual A more than I ever have though. Not the physical aspect, but the emotional part of all of it. She stole something from us, something we can't get back. There will always be someone else out there that has part of something that was supposed to belong only to us. I'm not so sure I'll be ok with that. The way things are going, I'm not sure that her actions are going to help me be ok with that. I'm the only one that can say whether or not I'll get over it, but without her help, it will be impossible for me. The resentment I feel will be too much if she is unwilling to help. It may sound like I'm placing my burden on her but I'm not. I'm just being honest by saying that the resentment that is building up because of her lack of concern for my welfare will be stronger than my ability to get over this A. I can only do so much on my own and I have exceeded my own expectations really, I never would've thought I'd last this long. I'm not even close to giving up yet.

At the moment, I'm trying to detach myself from the relationship. In a healthy way. Just a way of stepping back and becoming an observer rather than an active part of the drama. It's helping me detach from the expectations and pain associated with all of that. It seems that the underlying theme for all of these "self help" books whether it's marriage, or addiction or self esteem, is that you have to see things from a healthy personal point of view before you can make any kind of decision or progress on anything. I'm starting to get there, things are falling into place I think, I'm not sure I like what I see but at least I'm getting somewhere. It kind of scares me, because all this time I've been screaming about how we can fix this and start over and save our marriage and become closer and all of that stuff, now the opposite thought is starting to creep in. "What if I finally get my head straight and figure out that she isn't what I want, that she won't make the grade, that I've been seeing something that really wasn't there?" Especially after reading about love addicts, I was never one before but I sure have turned myself into one with her. Snuggle, good to hear from you. I'm pretty sure I've accepted what's happened, I think that the acceptance is the source of my crying now. I still cry, most everyday I think. Just from the sense of sadness and loss of what we had. Nothing in particular. And I don't mind it really, helps me let things out.

Wife is doing well I think. I try not to decipher things with her, just observe. She is very nice to me most of the time. She is kind of rude sometimes but I think it's part of who she is now. I notice a fakeness in her I've only seen a couple of times before. Acting one way in public or with others and then being different when around me and the kids. Like I said, just observations. We get along good, still do things together with and without the kids. Still planning the move together, should find out where we might go on the 22nd. Still sleepig downstairs, I have no desire to go back upstairs although my back has been paying the price. It hasn't felt like this in months but it's tolerable. I'm not sure what would have to change for me to get back into our bed, I just know that the time for that isn't near. I sure would like to have some sex though, she's till sexy as heck. But I'm not sure I could deal with it really. I like to think I can separate sex from emotion but not this time, not that she's asked anyway, just talking. Anyway, 22 days until Hawaii, I can't wait.

Hope everyone is well, ciao....

Thank you, Dino, for reading the book and sharing your thoughts here.

Was a scary one for me to recommend. I remember well, though, the acceptance, confirmation and validation I felt reading it...and the parts where what I knew fit into other parts I didn't know, didn't recognize...didn't have words for to explain.

The flashlight analogy works very well for me, too. Has that observer position as other stuff is revealed by the light...so what I see (as you said, good or bad) is important because I can see it. Stuff which has been part of my periphery, affecting my experience.

I think it's totally reasonable to have thoughts to the opposite of your goal...for us to commit to recoverying our marriages, come what may, is extreme constant vulnerability (can seem like it)...and acknowledging you can choose differently is important, I think.

Would you consider it's part of your old self asserting for you to react to your feelings (the old way) again? If it doesn't feel good, make you happy, don't do it? That short-term fix not the long-term payoff? Again, we wouldn't seek instant gratification, protection, ending pain now if it didn't give us different feelings, would we?

Also a signal to share with your WW what you're thinking and feeling. I don't believe you can begin recovery (if she chooses, recommits, etc.) and suddenly switch gears...I believe we practice our O&H now, our acts of respect, predetermine our boundary enforcements and hold ourselves to them, practicing what we want most...and doing our acts of love with awareness...like obtaining and reading the book, talking about it...sharing and being shared with.

Otherwise, Recovery feels like getting hit by a truck.

I'm delighted you don't want to forgive her yet, actually. Working through forgiveness is like you working daily on your grief...it's a whole process, not an event. Forgiving her involves her owning what she did exactly (no longer excluding you by answering all your questions), why she did it (identifying her justifications and how she got into the fog); and why and how she won't do it again.

Then you gotta work on forgiving yourself, too.

Your head is already on straight...always has been. Where you dwell in your thoughts within your head, well, like your predilection for living in the future and the past...you might want to reconsider. When you are fully present, knowing what is happening now is truly now...would these thoughts be signals your fear is losing your love for your wife?

Thing for me about pain...I can take some intense physical pain...I have a healthy threshold...thing is, I can't take it for long...now, we both know we "take it" because we seriously don't have a choice...we survive and endure...I just find that something I handled well for three days at pain level 4, for instance, I flip out and refuse on Day 4 even at pain level 3. Duration matters to me...which is why I encourage posters to see where their thoughts dwell, to not extend or expand their own pain...see where they may be adding...because this isn't a four-day painfest...it's a marathon where we begin to run it already tired in 90-degree heat.

Staying present is essential...just for today, I will...I can...I believe...I perceive...I feel...

See if when you are fully present if you have those thoughts. If they come to mind, even then...or if they are silent. When you stand in the moment, look at your kids, your place, your feet in place, your smile, your sorrow, your life...for that one moment. And breathe.

LA

PS - After the book, you could stand in the moment and add these words, "I am" and "I am complete"...rinse. repeat.

I think you're right, it is my old self trying to resurface. A certain consciousness telling me she deserves to be punished, that she needs to feel losing everything. But even scarier, is the thought that MAYBE we really are unable to reconnect, unable to shed this load, not able to see each other as husband/wife anymore. I'm not quite sure but I'm very aware of feelings on both sides. I think it's good to see from an objective point of view. It seems like we're going somewhere, not quite sure right now but it feels as if we're feeling out how to treat each other with that respect you talk about. I keep that thought of suddenly "switching gears" in my head always. If the time comes that the commitment is verbalized, I want to be able to fend off the rush of feelings I know I'm going to get. I'd almost rather we slip into the recommitment nice and quiet so there isn't that sudden expectation. We're doing a good job at what were doing now, I think we're ok. We've got a long way to go on this subject, especially since is where we dropped the ball when I had my A 5 yrs ago. She never has forgiven me, she's been harboring this resentment for me all this time, it finally came to a head. I don't want to do that again no matter which way we go. And until she decides to come onboard, this will be a subject waiting in the wings. She's got alot of work to do on her own before we can work together. I don't know that she'll ever ask for that help or get it, but I'm hoping she realizes she can't do it on her own. She's mentioned it but has yet to do anything, if she has, she's kept it from me (which wouldn't surprise me). O&H is something I'm not real confident in right now. I chalk it up to my natural mistrust for her right now. I don't trust her, at all. I don't make it a point, or argue anything or even try to contend things I believe to be untrue, just sit back and observe. She makes no effort to change that perception so it's just what it is. I want to trust, I believe I will one day. Not sure where I'm at with this. I don't beat myself up like I was in the beginning. Actually, I think I'm almost there. I did accept all the blame for this situation at first, took it all. Now I accept none of it. I didn't do this to us, she did. We had issues as do all marriages, I had an A, many others too. We could've taken any number of options other than this but she chose, now we're here. I accept it. I'll forgive myself one day, for treating her bad, for not cherishing her like she deserved.

I'll get through the rest of the book in the next couple of days LA. I'm about to read about "healthy relationships". Should be a interesting read, I wonder if there is anything I can identify in this chapter. Thanks again though, another piece of the puzzle that fits. I'm getting better at staying in the "now". The sadness is still there but not overwhelming, like a companion.

Ciao

I'm glad you're making progress. I wish I had a magic pill for you.

Embrace your old self...it's your earliest. Don't harangue or reject him, 'k? He wants the magic pill because there really were magic pills when he was created...one to make him stop itching (you KNOW that's magic), one to make him not sick; one to stop his own heading from banging on itself. Those pills still exist...don't deprive yourself of them when your head bangs, 'k?

And the voice which justifies punishing her back to get her back...is reasonable, too, from that same age. Remember as boy how you would get into scuffles with your friends, when someone took something said wrong, or a gesture...and you'd beat on one other to get the other to stop hurting you? (My DH explained this to me, and yes, we girls did it emotionally, through abandonment, to one another, too). And then afterwards, you'd be even, clear, okay with each other? Each got your licks in? Made emotional pain real in physical pain, which could be dealt with.

Know you're already dealing with this pain...and you do NOT want back a mate you manipulated into coming back into the marriage. We think, in our earliest selves, that at least they'd be back...if we really could make others do what we want, we wouldn't want that life...there's no way to be chosen, loved for who we are really...which is why that signal in you says, "Hey, look at me in here!" meaning your focus is all over what you cannot control.

And this process teaches you that you were loved for who you really are all along, fully, completely...you were always chosen. May not feel like it right now...remains so, 'k?

See how faith is essential to our existence, to actually know reality? Quirky, I know. Still true in God's design...faith, what we choose to believe, determines how we experience our lives. Choose wisely.

Know when you cannot see, Dino...you ARE husband and wife. Right now, you are. You can't see, feel, reconnect right now in ways you are used to--so you have new ways to learn. Humans connect and disconnect all the time...it's amazing during crisis how you can see this most clearly. Disconnect validates you were connected...and connecting again means you are able...we all are able to do either. Both are necessary.

Usually, it's when we disconnect from ourselves we experience the most pain. Be mindful...embrace, not reject, what is within you. I see you doing that in your post...I'm kudo'ing you and highlighting, 'k?

Great to know you're practicing respect...which is KNOWING she's a whole, complete, separate and equal person, and that you are. That her choices, actions, stuff is about her, and always was...and so was yours. That's the resentment buster. Because you have eliminated your LBs, you are showing more of who you really are...which is stunning, I promise. Feel that spark and light...it's you. When you do, you see it more in her...and btw, you're not going, getting or arriving somewhere. We exist in this one moment continually...you're already there, 'k?


Take your focus off her forgiveness...and ponder this: When we don't forgive others, we don't forgive ourselves. Forgiveness (just as the rest of our stuff) goes both ways. Think about your own forgiveness...when you stopped back then to get hers...something was there...something said or done in you...which dropped it out of top priority. Use that knowledge of what it was right now and align to what you don't want to happen this time. Because it won't...you'll stay aware and work hard on your own forgiveness of her, and her of yours. Also, think of how forgiving she is or isn't of others, the kids, relatives, old friends. Gives you a better perspective, 'k?

Then flip it over onto yourself and see your own patterns in relation to forgiving, forgetting, distracting or reliving. Then share, Dino. Share what you find in yourself, about you, with her.


More kudos on choosing to not believe she's acting O&H. You act O&H, anyway. She hasn't recommitted to the marriage, through NC and transparency, so there is not trust rebuilding on her side. Mind yours...because you lost trust in yourself for not seeing, predicting, changing fast enough to have made her infidelity not happen (hear that little guy again?). And you betrayed yourself, for we all do, in many ways in the last year and half. Use your distrust of her to rebuild yours within yourself, step by step, 'k?

Your faith that you will choose to trust one day is terrific. Way to go...that's faith. It's real. It's just not right now.

Your personal recovery is as essential as your eventual marital one, 'k? You're working it well, stick with it...and you will be ready and aware for marital recovery.

This adult experience, btw, breaks an old belief..."Can't have a marriage where there is no trust." Uh, yeah you can. Temporarily. Too bad we didn't believe, "Can't have a marriage where there is blind trust." LOL. Well, we know now. It was really empowering and helpful to me to not trust my DH and know we were still married, still partners, equals in one union.


Oops, I jumped ahead on the self-forgiveness above. Sorry 'bout that. I repeat. I do. Thank you for your patience. Accepting what happened and what is--wow, quite a breakthrough. Pain isn't in acceptance, is it? Not TAKING responsibility away from your partner respects them. Think about your self-betrayal in doing so...and remember, forgiveness mirrors amends...you own what you did to yourself (wanted to take all the blame so you'd have all the control, be the cure, the magic pill); why you did what you did; and how and why you won't do it again. I think you are almost there because you have all of that...except the how. One of the factors in how you won't...you won't go into her stuff and make it your own (don't steal her stuff), including responsibility that cannot be yours because you're human.

You figure out the other how's...they are yours.

Might look to your permission to believe people deserve anything...we have inherent choice...whether we deserve it or not. I'm allergic to "deserve" can you tell? That's my thing.

We are worth everything; we don't deserve love or punishment...we ARE made of love and we choose to experience pain as punishment. We are valuable and worthy. No deserve in it. We are loved continuously, without ceasing. Doesn't mean we experience life being made from love itself. We still are.

Sadness is your slow-release magic pill, Dino. You're learning to accept it, lean into it a bit...let it find and mark the injuries, salve and cover them for a bit...and show you where you hurt in the light--sadness is healing. Depression is when you cannot stop your little guy from saying, "This shouldn't have happened" and living in fantasy. Sadness leads you to totality in acceptance, so you can thrive.

LA

LA

Thanks for the time once again. I read your posts and your words make me think, they make me use my thoughts in ways I maybe never would have before. I'm kind of tired right now so forgive me if I get a little unfocused. I didn't sleep well the last few nights, don't know why really, maybe a little to warm at night. We don't have A/C her in England so fans are the best we can do.

Anyway, little things change over the course of days, weeks, months. My ultimate goal is still the same, save our marriage, help it to be healthy and happy and a place we both want to be. Short term though, changes by day. Right now I want that pain pill. I just want the hurt to stop, I know it's going to take some time but it's draining me big time. Today has not started out as a very good day. You never know when those days come, they just do. I feel like crap today, I'm lonely, I want some companionship bad, from my wife. Not going to happen but i can want. Today will over soon enough so I have tomorrow to look forward to. First instincts were that I didn't care how we stayed together, just that she was still here, not anymore. I don't want her here if she's not really "here". I deserve better, she's disrespected me all these years, I could've made appropriate changes if I was not living up to expectations, if I had known if wasn't filling ENs, if I knew my account in her love bank was drained so bad. I could have, I would have, I want to make her happy, I want to promote a healthy place for both of us. But I was misled, so if she wants out, I want her out. I deserve better than to be satisfied with someone who has "settled". Forgiveness has so much to do with where we are right now. So much to get through. So much work to be done before any of this can even happen. We're just here, not really trying to do anything. I take that back, we're getting closer, in my opinion. Closer is relative in perspective, closer than 6 months ago means she actually talks to me. At least it's progress.

Sorry, but this is going to be half a post. Have to run. I did a phone session w/Steve Harley today, went well I think. We'll see how it goes over the next couple of weeks with his suggestions.

Ciao

How can it be a bad day when you talked with Steve H?

LOL

Just kidding.

Please know that there's no time limit on your response...I can keep track of you without response probably for 15 days in a row.



Yes, it's incremental change right now in your marital perspective; sounds like much larger, rapid changes in your personal recovery. Like watching two races at once...of turtles and dolphins. Tough to do.

As for sleep...can you get the herbs for melatonin over there? Sure helps me...or Valeria (a relaxer). I don't sleep as well in the summer, anyway, because I can't cuddle with DH--he's a furnace man. Great for winter, though.

LA

Hey Dino! I'm sorry to hear you are having a rough day today. I know you'll get through this too though. Have you noticed that your bad days are a lot less frequent? I have

So what did Steve Harley advise you to do? I am curious!

So here's what we came up with. She's is angry, upset and in no way ready to think about getting back into the marriage. She's too afraid of what may happen and doesn't think there is a way for us to fix things or make them better for us. Here's what he suggested: stay away from marriage talk, speak with her about things that can help her be happy again. Tell her that we can find things to help her be happy again and that there are ways (and he told me to say this by quote) "there is a way for you to be in love with the father of your children again". Let her know that I am more concerned with her happiness and health right now than anything else, and truthfully, I am. He asked me to tell her that he wanted to speak to her (I don't know how that will go over) he said present it in a very non-threatening or condecescending way. "I spoke with a guy who is a marriage coach, he has some very good ideas that I think we should look into. We aren't unique, our situation is repeated thousands of times a day. I feel like we have enough riding on this that we should explore everything we can and give it a shot. I really think he can help you see things from a diferent angle and maybe present you with some things that can help YOU be happy again."

I just don't know, she was so adamant about not needing to talk to anyone, at least she actually said that MAYBE she should, but still screamed about "what is that going to do for me, they can't make me feel better, they can't make these feelings go away" I don't know, I do know that if she doesn't get help from somewhere or someone, we don't stand a chance, there is too much junk on both of us. We're not even close to strong enough to wade through everything without outside help. I pray that she can see that some day. I doing my part, I really think I'm getting better about everything, but the more I see, the more discouraged I get about her. She's banking our entire relationship and life on what she feels will happen "naturally". I can only do so much.

All in all I think we had a good discussion. I feel a little disappointed that it really won't do much good without her participation. I already knew that. It's so depressing to know that there is a way, there is a path to happiness, there is a way to make things right, to help us be happy again and get us on the path to recovery, but one of us is just being so stubborn. Can't make a decision on whether this is important enough to make the effort, which is causing a little resentment on my part. If she doesn't feel our family and marriage and kids are important enough to do EVERYTHING humanly possible to make it right, then maybe I shouldn't waste my energy, energy I could use to heal and start on my own path. Just another oe of the million thoughts that go through my head everyday, we'll see.

Ciao
hope you weekend is good...

OMG, that is *SUCH* a good phrase!! Man, I wish *I* had thought of it ... LOL! It is a really subtle way to remind her why she should fight for the marriage. There is nothing more motivating to most women than their children. Genius.

Do you think maybe when you talk to your wife about getting counseling that you make her feel defensive? She might not like the idea that she NEEDS help or that there is only this one way to do things. I know I get my defenses up when it sounds like that. I would be more responsive if it was just something to try rather than something I must do. In my opinion, it IS possible for her to find her way back to you "naturally" ... I feel certain that that is what she would want if she could choose any outcome. I think she just can't see how to get there right now.

Please don't discount your wife's efforts to straighten out your lives. It might not seem like she is working on things to you, but remember, she has a lot of healing to do on herself ... herself being 50% of your marriage ... before she can go to the next level of working on the marriage. Indirectly she is working on the marriage if she is truly working on herself. In fact, all the work you are doing on yourself is indirectly working on making your marriage better too. Be more generous with yourselves ... you both should get more credit, I think

Anyway, hope you have a good weekend too!

I really appreciate everyones help. I'm stuck. My wife knows everything there is to know about relationships, we're going nowhere. I told her about speaking with Steve, she thinks I'm a friggen weakling. "Nothing anyones can say can teach me anything I don't already know about what I need to do for my marriage." Still hung up on the past, rehashes everything everytime we talk, it's been 7 months since she came home. She just wants to be alone, won't deal with anything. Everytime I want to talk it pushes her further away, she tells me so. She wants it all to go magically away and somehow things will happen naturally, I should be understanding and wait, or not she says. Of course when we go back to the states she gets to be with the kids since she's retiring and the kids want to go back to arizona. Why would they want to go with me to some other crap hole. So, she gets to be on her own, she gets the kids and I get $#@&^. If I raise a stink and take the kids with me, I'm the a$$ in the relationship and not looking out for the best for the kids. I lose all the way around. No have nowhere to turn, Every direction I go it sucks. This whole thing sucks and I don't think I can take it anymore. Of course I can't do anything about it either. I can smile and suck it up, or I can do something stupid and make SOMETHING happen, may not be good but at least we'll be headed somewhere. I'm in a impossible position. "Wait, until I decide, don't know how long, don't know why or when or anything. Oh, and I'll enjoy the kids while you're stuck in BFE, hope everything goes good for you. I do care for you and I know your guts and ripped out, and I know I have you bent over right now, but you need to figure out a way to deal with it. I hate to see you like this but I'm not going to do anything to make it better. Oh, why do you look so upset? I thought you had a good time at the gym? I just don't understand why you have to be so salty all the time. Whatever, you do whatever you have to do, haev a good day."

This sucks, I'm done.

LA, Snuggle, I really appreciate your help. Everything can work if both parties are willing. She's shut down, even time is doing nothing. She'd just as soon spit on me as she would give me a kiss, I'm her friggen husband for crists sakes. She's the one who screwed this up. I asked her to look me in the eye and tell me our marriage was bad enough to slpit apart, she couldn't give me a straight answer, her stinkin desire to be righteous about this whole thing is going to cost us a marriage and my kids a normal friggen home. I hate this crap, I'm still going to try but theres nothing to look forward to. She says she has to peal back layers and heal one part at a time. My layer doesn't hold much priority, even the friggen OM and his poor career hold more importance than me. More important than herself even, or the welfare of our family, she doesn't see it, she's lost her mind. I don't understand she says, I'll never understand, I'm so done with this.

Sorry, I don't even know why I bother trying to talk about our relationship. If I could find a way to be away from her, I would start a new life. I can't take this roommate stuff, she's fine with it, it's easy when you don't care for the other person. I wish I could change my feeling for her, I do it in a heartbeat. I don't want this feeling anymore, I'm sick of it. I think I'm starting to hate her and there is nothing I can do about it. I'm going to tell my older daughter and my brother in law when we go to Hawaii. I don't even know, I just need to get it off my chest, just to be spiteful. It's not going to do anything other than someone knowing why the families strongest couple is getting a divorce. I don't know anything. This not being able to curse is killing me. I need to write 6 pages of profanity real bad. How do I get so wound up. I'm just tired of this whole thing. Moving apart can't come soon. I'm going to miss my kids, she's a f'ing [censored].

Sorry guys, sorry if I disappoint you. I'm not as strong as I thought, I haven't made as much progress as I thought. I haven't made my self any better than day 1. I'm still a sniveling needy worm I was 7 months ago. I don't think I can do it. I just can't see things from her prospective, it just seems so eays to me. You either want it, or you don't. Make a friggen move. The only reason she's doing this is because she has the upper hand, were stuck with no options. She wants to get out of here without too much damage. As long as she can get back to the states, she's going to be good to go. I on the other hand, get the shaft, as I always do. I just want to forget all about her. I want to take down all pictures of us together, I'm turning into a psycho. I already got rid of my picture with her at work. I deleted all pictures I had with her after she came home from deployment. I just want her out of my mind. I'm tired of her infecting my every thought, I want her gone, out of my head. I don't know how to do that and still stay halfway, friendly. Of course I'm the bad guy in everything, I mentioned taking the kids with me, she freaked, called me names, said I'm selfish and spiteful. She's right though, Going with her is the best for the kids, no matter how you look at it. So, I'm screwed. My old lady slept with soemone else, she gets to move away from here with my kids, I haev no arguement, if I did, I'd be the selfish one who isn't looking out for the kids wishes. Whatever, I'm sick of thinking about it, all day everyday. My life sucks.

I just want to be friggen normal again, worry about my grass and gas prices and when I play golf next. Not thinking everyday about how my marriage and my kids lives are going to be ripped to shreds because of some self serving wench who had an "epiphany" about her life while she was sitting on some other guys lap. Hows that for friggen irony. "you're the perfect husband, the perfect dad, I'm so stupid for not wanting to love you, I can't help it, i hate it. So just hang in tiger, I may find some magic love potion one day."

eat #&&*! I still didn't LB or DJ during our talk, I sure I would have, it was right on the tip of my tongue. Why didn't I? If she's not wanting to save or marriage, why should I give a crap about anything she says or feels. She's just another one of the sorry weak females I've seen a million times who just can't fight off the "nice guys" who come out of the woodwork during deployments. with a 200 to 1 ratio guys to girls, they get alot of attention, they were soul mates though right? WHo am I to stand in the way of destiny. "He made me feel good, he cares for me" friggen pathetic. And I'm the jacka$$ stting here taking it all, waiting for what?

Not an ounce of change. Nada. I'd be gone if I could be.

Dino,

Thank you for spewing.

There are so many things you can take with you, for the rest of your life, from this experience. Please breathe and focus on this one right now...

"I will not take in what is not mine."

Fear has you by the tail...know it and don't move. I hear your fear of your children choosing to go with WW and not you. They don't know why their world is falling apart...they know of "troubles" not "choices." Fill them in on the choices. It's what you said you would do in the future, if you choose to divorce. Okay, since we're spiraling in the future...include the data. You both sit down and face your children and own the adultery. She explains what she lost career-wise for hers, how she chose to continue contact, knew how much pain that caused in you, that she refused to pursue any marital counseling because she already knew it all, chose not to research or understand forgiveness, and owns she is choosing to break apart her intact family.

Then you say what you chose...to work on recovery, learn how to have a marvelous marriage, an intact family, to forgive what seems unforgiveable, learned to communicate, connect, about great rules to relationships, sought out marital counseling, even without WW, the books you've read, the prayers you've said, and how very much you want your family intact, whole and together. See, it's one thing for her A (not yours) to be a casualty of war...she hasn't been in that war for seven months now and still feels entitled, full of resentment and lacks respect. The mindset continues...and it was there prior to her A, the war and everything.

We parent by example...we teach our children to ask for what they want most and let the outcome go...which is self-respect. You can ask for your children to come with you, in this future-placed event, and I believe they will. For to them, with knowledge of The Truth of actions and choices, they would not want to abandon the parent who fought for them, even within himself, and add to the family's betrayal. Without the truth, they will do so...and they will hate not knowing, acting selfishly because their parents lied to them, daily, for months and years. When they do know, you won't be able to touch that betrayal in them...how worthless, angry, fear-filled they will be when their choices in their own lives was manipulated so grievously.

Kids are casualties of the military life. You know they are. Hard enough to get a grip on reality while growing up; when you keep changing the scene, the environment, even through a four-year stay somewhere, they know they will leave...permanently mourning loss, place of being. In another way, it teaches them how much their parents will sacrifice for a higher cause...which is the protection of many, not just the family. And how they will even sacrifice the protection of the family, everything that they say matters, that they fight for...confusing as all get out. You know this. You both have taught your children that sacrifice is good, noble, highest calling...

And your WW sacrificed for years (in her mind) for the good of the family...built a trench of resentment, entitlement...do you not think your children will do this, as well? We parent by example.


Your answer "I hear you saying that you are choosing to not speak with Steve H because you believe you know what you need to do for your marriage. Would you be willing to share with me what you know?"


Is this her statement, like above that you quoted; or is this your assumption, perception?


Real fathers don't fear looking like an a$$. They know they are not. They know that raising a stink to have their children with them to end the cycle of sacrifice, resentment, entitlement which taints every relationship they will have as well as their careers, is imperative. Important. Big enough to be seen as the bad guy...many heroes are seen that way...and they do it, anyway. That's the way I look at it...and you said there was no other way. See how you cut out choices and then feel choiceless.

Did you really follow our advice on your thread to limit R talk to no more than 20 minutes a week at a set time? Did you use the other 19 hours and 40 minutes to play together, one on one? To listen to what may seem trivial in comparison, still shared to know and be known? Practice the self-affection techniques, share what you're doing and why with WW as O&H drivebys? Have you lost your focus on your half by striving to her to act from her half?

Have you lived most of your life anticipating something? Something to look forward to? This is worth because when...in relation to many facets and choices of your life? If so, stop. That's the fantasy of missing your whole life right there...the future cannot be present...and you don't have to endure, sacrifice right now to get to the good stuff. The good stuff only takes place right here, right now.

If you will bribe yourself to endure for the future, then that will be the place of your undoing, as well. Right now you have an intact family. Right now you aren't split across several states, alone, without your family. Right now you have everything you need to thrive, and you're depriving yourself of affection, admiration, appreciation, acceptance and care. You're doing that and you're blaming her. That's what I see.

Is she the one wanting this to magically go away or is that really you, Dino? To have a transformation, a do-over...because you can't recover if you don't stay present. Recovery happens, like the rest of your life, in the right now.

Rehashing the past...when she does, listen and repeat, "I hear you saying that you justify your affair because of mine five years ago. I get that. I understand that's your perspective." Validate and acknowledge...does not mean you agree. Tell her how you are uncovering your layers to heal from her A. Tell her the steps you are taking for the forgiveness process.

Won't deal with anything is a huge DJ that is the reason you're spiralling right now. She's present. She is there. She isn't doing what you want her to do, when you want her to do it or in the way you want it done right now. That hurts like crazy...and you're doing that. Could it be you tell yourself you're not dealing?

Dealing is choosing...tiniest choice to the huge ones. How are you making your tiny ones...like focusing on lack of affection versus acting affectionate? How are those non-verbal communication exercises coming? How about the verbal ones? Taking the walks, seeing new things together, daily? I don't believe any of these are happening and that she's the reason. I believe your fear of rejection, your self-image, is the way you are sabotaging yourself right now.

The "as soon as spit on me" was the clue, btw.


Both of you have to examine your layers to heal...and part of healing is acting from love when you don't have loving feelings. You take the action to HEAL inside what you ruptured, what tore at you...each time she reaches to take your hand is an act of healing; each time she listens and repeats what you share...listens...stays...stays present is an act of healing. For we do this when we feel numb, in an abyss or if we are raging...when we act from our belief, not react to our present feelings, then the loving feelings follow. And this finally breaks the enmeshment of giving to get, tit for tat...that earning love and punishment...so two whole people in one union know they exist, know where they begin and end, and prize each other equally, respectfully and experience real and enduring love.

Takes one person, Dino...and that's you. You have been betrayed and you can choose to end the marriage. What I'm seeing at times is that you go so far into her stuff, you are experiencing what she felt for five years, the back and forth, the DJ distortion, the feelings from those DJs, and the cutting out as if it stops the cutting.

Your pain comes from inside you--your own choices and beliefs. When we believe we can build walls, stop pain from eliminating others, we are in self-deception...which is required to do that which we most regret.

Snap out of it.

Your pain from minute-to-minute rejection is intense, it's real and it causes incredible pain in you. It always has...think about the ways you've experienced it before, going way back...when you felt annihilated, unjustly treated, wiped out by someone's rejection of you. Might have written 12 pages of profanity in an effort to express just how badly you hurt. How about writing one page where you trace that hurt to the belief inside of you? Your choice to believe her stuff as the truth is one I can see...she's having a terrible time with the ongoing, unending consequences to her choices...and so are you, IMO.

That would be fertile ground to talk about. Your fear and anger of not having seen years of consequences to your actions...acknowledging what she and OM did, equally, tore apart decades of relationships...with their spouses, their careers, their children...and how it will affect decades more...when they see their children's choices, too...and their future spouses.

Where her thoughts dwell is out of your control. The more you're present, sharing and committed to act from your own code, the less opportunity she has to dwell. You believe she puts OM and his destruction ahead of her own family. She isn't. She's putting her shame, like a false power, in the top notch...and she's refusing redemption just as she refused your acts of redemption. This remains about her, Dino.

She didn't see your choice of infidelity to be about you. And when you spiral like this, you're not seeing her choice of infidelity to about her, either. Don't go the same road, please. Doesn't lead to reality, to healing, understanding or acceptance. Continues to harm, reinjure and that very cycle is one of pain...keeps swinging the pendulum.

Be still.

She cannot replace you. You are irreplaceable. So is she.

When she says you don't understand...tell that's a disrespectful judgment and you don't do those anymore. "Are you saying you don't perceive I'm understanding what you believe because I believe differently?" Get to the issue behind the issue. Yes, we act to redeem...that's part of it...actual understanding, hearing how her own shame has run her entire life on the treadmill of earning love is worth hearing about.

You are not who you were seven months ago. You can experience being that person again when you go into that mindset again. It's not real...it's how DJs work...they work to regress, to control, to give you the experience of fantasy as reality. You know you're strong because you have acted bravely. You can act more bravely. What I see in your post is Plan FU...where first you lay out all your DJs before you, write them down...and what you truly don't know, you ask and hear her state her stuff.

You ask, is this true for you? And then you state your feelings, your experience from those DJs...and from hers...and you know a better way to live. She's welcome to it.

The damage is already all around you. You're adding to it in yourself. Stop it. You have made her your enemy, which is fantasy. She is your partner. Sure isn't your experience right now. Know that truth, anyway. Know that not exposing her A was your choice...now you hunger for others to know the truth...to know you're not the bad guy.

There are no bad guys in marriage. The blame-game chokes off true selves and lives solely from self-image. That's why folks can be married for years and say, "I don't even know you anymore." They never did. This is your chance to really know and be known for who you really are. You can take it or keep wrestling the old way. If you divorce, your next relationship will face the same issues, again and again.

No one wants that for you. When she calls you name, enforce your boundaries. You can notify the family in advance of Hawaii and ask them to help you save your marriage. That's what exposure is about...and you chose not to do so for a reason...get to the bottom of that reason.

Confess to WW that you are now attacking your marriage...about deleting her pictures, removing them from sight, making her your enemy, when you know in your heart, she was the enemy of your marriage, not you. You could have gone to Plan B to perserve your love...she could have left, stayed with friends, gone no contact except through an intermediary, even in England. You chose not to--look at the reason you refused to be responsible for your own love bank, and see if part of it is in still striving to get the symbol of love out of her so you could feel differently.


This is how you got here, Dino. You got to right now by anticipating, looking forward to when the life you wanted began...and that's how we all lose what we love. Everyone of us. You are not the perfect husband or dad...you are uniquely qualified because YOU ARE her husband and your children's father. She can help it so you hear her lying. Say so. "I hear you believe you can't help not acting from love. I know you can. I know I do. I don't feel any love for you and massive hate for you right now. I'm acting from knowing I choose to love you, so I'm listening, discussing, not reacting to my feelings right now. Feelings change based on our actions."

She is the potion. Up to you to know it. We all discover this after it takes what it takes for each of us.


You know the answer to this because it's why you're having these intense feelings: When you base your choices on someone's possible response, you are slashing self to bits. You are saying, "I am because she feels I am"...not real, total fantasy. She isn't acting to end or save your marriage right now. She's present. She's at home. You're choosing to fight for your marriage, even yourself, anyway. Because your code has honesty in it. You want to do the right thing in wrong circumstances. You want to be able to look BACK and say you did all you could and are better for what you learned, experienced and know now. You care because you choose to care, not based on her feelings. That's the enmeshment. That's the crux of why you spiral. Stop hurting yourself, Dino. It's not real.

Stop lying to yourself, too. You would be gone if you could be. That's fantasy. You could have removed yourself from the home many times...you could have filed for divorce already...finances or no, you'd find a way, even in a hostel. That's not who you are, though. You are choosing to not be gone. You are choosing to not react to your feelings and flee. You won't do that to your kids or yourself, or the marriage. That's why you aren't gone. Be honest with yourself.

In knowing this you know your power...what you don't allow yourself to do. Then you can see better your WW's choices in what she isn't and choosing to do. Cleans out the DJs. Reality does.

We often feel stuck...we aren't. Knowing that difference, between the experience and reality is what I see you most wanting to know. We feel stuck when our thoughts dwell on lack, on what we don't have. We feel stuck when our thoughts dwell on someone else's choices instead of our own. Truly, your power remains constant, inherent...so do your limits. You cannot make her do, feel, think, believe, perceive, view anything differently than she does right now. You can choose to hand back to her what isn't yours...her stuff. And focus on your own stuff...choices you are making and will make...hold them up to your code and see how much pain they may cause you or not.

See if they are acts of love from a man who is undeniably MADE from love. Who is whole, complete and beloved. See if he's loving through honesty, respect and acceptance himself or not.

Honesty is the antidote of shame, I believe. You have been keeping her secret with her...taints you, hurts you, and so you spiral. Your choice in acting from your honesty, asking for what you want and letting the consequences go is really important. You weren't meant to live in the dark and rail against it. You are light. Understand you are.

LA

Yikes! Is it safe for us to come out of hiding from behind the sofa? Cover me LA!! LOL ... just kidding

Sorry, I deal w/ stress by making jokes. Dino, I wish we could be there for you in real time so we could help you not get so wound up rather than seeing you totally wound up and hoping to say something to help you unwind later. Oh well. C'est la vie, eh?

I think LA covered all the main things in her post so I just want to add that I am not disappointed in you at all. I don't expect you to be perfect and never slide back into old habits. When you do, it is not a sign that you haven't made any progress, just a sign that you are human. Trust me, I think anyone who has been married can relate to your vent and has at one time or another felt like their spouse was the most evil being on earth with no other purpose than to kick you when you're down. It's just your anger talking. You are more than your anger and it will pass.

It's going to be OK. Whatever happens, you will find a way to cross the bridge safely. Just keep your head on straight so you can see where you're going

All my very best hopes and wishes,
SnuggleFresh

Why does she do that? This morning she hugs me before I leave and says "whats wrong? Why do you look so down and tired? Are you ok?"

Hmmmmm, my marriage sucks, my wife doesn't love me, I'm 4 months from being separated from my children. What could possibly be wrong? What on god's green earth could possibly be making me upset, why am I not smiling and planting flowers? Why in the F#&^% am I not skipping through the tulips?!!!

Stupid, stupid, stupid. I need to get my [censored] together. I may have overestimated my resolve, overestimated my strength. I'm not feeling too strong right now. I'd just as soon be done with it. I think we're both just waiting for the other to make the move to end it, neither of us strong enough to do it, but too weak to do anything about it. I ended my last marriage (highschool thing, 18 yrs old, stupid) so at least I know I can do it. I might as well be the one this time too. Then she can have the satisfaction of saying she didn't end it. In the end, it really doesn't matter anyway, just a crying shame that it went to waste.

Who am I kidding, I'm not going to do [censored].

Easy there Mr. Crabby! You KNOW you have a habit of negative thinking that is not good for you and right now you are letting your habit get waaaaaaay out of hand. For goodness sakes, put the brakes on!!!

Get rational ... you're a man, I know you guys like to think this is your forte First of all, you haven't even found out where you're going to get assigned next right? Isn't that coming up next week? So you could very well be working yourself up into a frenzy only to find out that you are going somewhere your kids would love to go. Even if it isn't AZ, you don't know what your kids are going to pick. They might rather live with you if it comes down to that.

Second of all you do not know that your wife doesn't love you. Your wife doesn't even know, so how can you? You are just being negative and presuming that she is ultimately going to decide that she doesn't love you which is silly because that just guarantees you're going to act in ways that push her towards thinking maybe that's what she feels. What you do NOW will influence the ultimate outcome. It's like turning in homework ... you're grade isn't a done deal... you can make it go up or down.

I know you're not feeling strong, but keep going Dino. Hang in there. Don't quit. Quitting is the weak thing to do. It's the easy way out. Not doing "poop" takes guts.

Take it easy on yourself today, k?

You actually made me giggle on that one. Mr Crabby? ha ha!

I get so frustrated. I know we're not anywhere different than we were 3 days ago when everything was going just fine. I hate those dang relationship talks, they just get me down. She's so negative about everything, everything is bad with her, we didn't do this, we didn't do that, we're not going to fix it, I can't see how it'll work, I can't get over this or that or whatever. It's draining. She gets me so mixed up.

Today we had to go to a meeting that helps for our move planning, something we have to go to. She sends me an email in the AM and it ends with "love, Jen", hardly ever does that. Then after the meeting we had lunch and after we walked out, she went to her car but gave me a peck on the lips, first time in months, WTF? I just don't get it. I'm not complaining but it is what it is, right?

And yes Snuggle, you're right again, I don't have any idea where I'm going yet. Won't know for sure until August 15th, my options come out tomorrow at which time I submit my preferences. The assignments will come out while we're in Hawaii. I'm a bit of a pessimist as you can tell, I prepare for the worst and I'm usually right. Maybe for the first time in my Air Force career I'll actually go somewhere I want to go. Prepare for the worst and you don't get disappointed, that's my motto. And you may be right, the kids might decide thay want to go where I'm going, that would be a blessing. Snuggle, i'm so depressed right now but I've been in this spot before, it goes away.

And I may rant and rave on here but I don't do that at home or in front of her, what a wimp right? Boy, I got no sleep last night either, sleep aids did nada.

Thanks for the lift Snuggle, i sure needed it. i knew this wasn't going to be easy and it isn't. I do miss her though, I miss her so much. She's in there somewhere, I hope things don't get out of hand, I'll do my part to keep everything sane. I feel this terrible ache in my heart, shouldn't it have eased a little in 7 months?

Maybe a good workout tonight and early bed will help some. I'll need to get my homework done early though.

Be good!

LA, Snuggle, I've been wondering if, since things aren't working this way, but she still seems to have some sort of affection for him still, whether Dino should stop walking on eggshells and just start being honest with her. What do you think?

It just seems like sometimes people don't get forced to look at themselves in the mirror, so they continue their destructive ways, kwim? I know I'm basing this off my own situation, where my H doesn't even know I'm unhappy, or doesn't WANT to know, and I say nothing, so he gets to continue doing all the things that make me miserable.

I know it's different in that MrsDino may not want to stay with Dino but my H does, but isn't it the same thing? She talks as if she doesn't understand what this is doing to him, he says nothing to try to keep her happy and keep her from running away from him, so in the end, she gets what she wants. And Dino suffers.

I think if they weren't in their living situation, they would have gone to Plan B by now.

So what do you think of him telling her the truth from now on? Making her aware of how miserable he is. I say this, because I really REALLY get the feeling that, since he's not overtly hurting all the time, she has told herself it's ok if she leaves him, because, after all, he's doing fine!

Cat, I agree...

In my last post to you, Dino, I mentioned Plan FU...only I think you can do this daily without LBs or cursing in it, as implied, rather than one big blow up.

"I miss my wife terribly. I hurt right now." would have been the answer to her question...as you soaked in her affection (not rebuffed it).

Whether it would a one-time Come-To-Jesus session or daily O&H statements, Cat, I think you're getting what I'm getting...that she's not getting this. All through Dino's filter, though, so we really don't know.

Snuggle, your way of dealing with stress through humor is terrific. And honest. And I got nothing to cover you with...except to charge out from behind the sofa with ya.

LA

Hey cat

I know this was directed at LA and Snuggle but I thought I'd chime in. you know cat, I think about that al the time. I hate pretending to be happy happy joy joy all the time and I don't. But there are alot of times I put on the smile when I don't feel it. She does know how bad this whole thing is making me feel, she tells me she does anyway but says she can do nothing for me, doesn't feel it. To tell you the truth, I guess I do walk on eggshells around her. I really don't know. I believe this to be true also. It's exactly why I didn't deal with my actions back when I screwed up, I was like a kid who got away with stealing. If there are no consequences, why should I take responsibility. I think about the same for her. I want her to feel the heat but at the same time, how do I do that but show her support and let her know that she can be forgiven and that she can forgive herself. Of course she paid a very hefty price for her actions, much more than I did. She lost her career, lost her chance at her ulitmate goal of making the highest rank and now has her awesome career tainted by the worst of mistakes. That is one of the biggest things she struggles with. She saved me from soemthing that she ended up paying the ultimate price for. Ironic like nothing you could have imagined, but I don't feel sorry for her. To tell you the truth, I'm glad she got caught and I'm glad she got punished, because I'm too friggen soft to do it myself. She had me as an example and she still screwed up, she deserves everything she got, I hope her boyfriend gets put through the ringer, I hope he does some jail time, I feel for his family, not an ounce for him. If I had known for sure that it was him that I confronted in Italy, I would've beat him until he was close to dead, i truly believe that. He is the worst of cowards, I'd gut him myself if DNA didn't exist, you can't get around that stuff anymore. I'd make him look into my kids eyes before I cut him though. She tells me that she is dealing with a whole host of emotions like guilt and anger. If I add to that then I'm cutting my own throat. Thats where some of this MB stuff is so confusing. It all makes sense, but only you can tailor it to fit your sitch. None of it works on someone who is not committed, almost like a marathon Plan A. I'm still trying to get her to want to stay married, much less do anything other than that. She on the verge of going, so any negative push I give hurts me and our kids too. Of course this isn't all my responsibility, she has to bear some too, but right now she's not here to fight for us, so I have to. Another accurate statement, at least it's my opinion. She would've moved out to an apartment, we may be at a better place if she had done that, who knows, it's all speculation. I just know that it's alot harder to do here. LA was right also though, had either of us really wanted to go, we could've done something, we would've found a way. Another MB perplexer. I thought if I looked and felt and acted like I was happy and good to go, she would come running back. I get compliments from her all the time, "your body is getting better everyday, you are so sexy, women all want you, you can get anyone you want" but nothing from her. I think cat is right by saying that she feels better about what she did because it looks like I'm doing just fine. Don't get me wrong cat, i'm not all that good at hiding my feelings. She says she hears me crying all the time and says it doesn't help her deal with things so again I'm a source of pain. I'm still not convinced she is going to leave me, not yet anyway. She's got the perfect out right now. All she has to do is make it until Nov and her and the kids get to go to arizona with no pressure from me. I know it's better for the kids to be back home with family. I would never be selfish enough to move the kids with me for only a year only to retire and move to arizona myself. That would be stupid on my part to move them both in the last 2 years in highschool, especially moving my daughter in the middle of her senior year! No matter how you look at it, I'd be the a$$. I even admit if I did that, it would be strictly for spite and not for the good of the kids. She knows this, so she just needs to last until we leave. Then she can get her time alone, without me, still have the kids and not feel pressure from me anymore, for awhile at least. Who knows, it may work out for our better marriage, I don't believe it but I'm open for anything. Look how much good our last separation did.

Bottom line, she says she just doesn't feel like loving me the way a wife should, just doesn't feel it and doesn't see that it will ever come back. Wishes that things were different but they aren't and she doesn't want to, or isn't willing to do what CAN be done to renew or regain those feelings. Just doesn't want to. There are no external forces working on her, no OM to sway her thinking, no fantasy she's chasing. Just doesn't want to be my WIFE anymore, or doesn't feel the feelings she should to remain my wife. These are all her words, not mine. Everytime I hear them, I ask her why she's still here and I get the same answer. "I can't go anywhere right now. Wait till we get to the states. I have all this stuff I'm dealing with Dino, why are you pressuring me to make a choice, I'm not in a healthy state right now, if I had to choose, i would leave you AT THIS MOMENT. That's her thing, "at this moment", that what she keeps saying to me. "i don't think it would be smart for me to make a rash decision while I'm in this state of mind. I need to peal back some layers, find out what I really want, who I am. I've lost myself. Maybe after some time, i'll get the desire back to work on us". That's what I hear from every talk we have, verbatum. I heard it in March, I'm hearing it in July. Here's the next step, "maybe after we go to hawaii, and we get some time to clear our heads and focus on family instead of whats here" or then it's, "I have to get out of England before I can be healthy at all, this place reminds me too much of all the bad stuff that has happened". Or "if the kids and I go to arizona, the time we have apart will do us good, maybe we'll be able to miss each other and start something good". I already miss her, I don't need friggen time apart, I need my dang wife back. Whoa, slipped a little there.

just some thoughts, it was supposed to be a quick one, sorry...

LA

I don't want to seem to dumb but I'm not sure what plan FU is? Is it what I think it is? The FU?

And you're right about one thing, she is not getting this, at all.

As for affection, I try to do that without giving her the GAG reflex. She says she doesn't want me touching her, it makes her uncomfortable. How do like that for your soul, my touching my wife makes her uncomfortable. But she was plenty comfortable being "touched" by scumbag.

I do understand that i may be skewing all of this to my viewpoint but I am trying my honest best to paint everything in an objective light. It would do me no good to get advice based on false data from you guys. I respect you all more than that. I'm a desperate man, my feelings can't be hurt anymore.

And LA, I haven't forgotten your long post, I'll be working on that one.

thanks again for all your support

This reminds me of the book The Dance of Anger. In it, you learn to pull away from your 'helpful' habits, your Giving, so that the other person can learn to hold up their side of the bargain. However, when you do that, that person might go into 'take back!' mode, where they get uncomfortable and try to guilt you or coerce you into supporting them again. In your case, it would be her telling you you're making her uncomfortable by being unhappy.

The book says the solution for that is to say, as you're explaining why you're pulling away (in your case, why you're finally being honest), you reassure her that you love her, and that you are doing this change specifically BECAUSE you love her. That you're not abandoning her or doing it out of spite, etc. Doing that, saying that extra point, shows her that no matter what is happening, no matter if you're suddenly seeming mean, you're doing what you think is best for your relationship BECAUSE of your love. That way they don't freak out and start trying to figure out ulterior motives, maybe even become reassured.

The reason for the Plan B is to preserve what feelings you have left for her, as you watch her not return those feelings. It's possible that if you stay with her that long with nothing in return, you may start hating her for it, or at least losing your love for her. So Plan B is to separate you from the pain; it's for you, not her.

Of course, that is her guilt trying to make you feel better; if YOU feel better, she's not such a bad person for what she's done to you.

Dino,


Do you repeat back what she's saying with reality?

"I hear you saying you are choosing to not love me as your husband, to act from your love, so you will have loving feelings for me. I agree with you. Because you are choosing this, you won't ever feel in love with me again. I know that feelings follow our actions."

Not combative...and not backing away, either. Humans do and don't do...BOTH are choices.

"When you say you wish things could be different, are you saying you wish you were in love with the father of your children again? And I'm hearing you know how to do this, to fulfill your own wish, and you're choosing not to, is that correct?"

She says that OM is not an external influence? Is she saying she has gone NC for life with him, put him out of her thoughts completely? I didn't get that from your other post, where she put her concern for his consequences greater than her concern for yours.


Don't ask "why" questions, 'k? Don't set yourself up for more pain. Listen and repeat affirms reality, which are her chosen actions/words...not her stuff. Your choice to repeat why questions is like beating someone...you don't like their answer and you ask again...like handing her a baseball bat and saying "Hit me." Drop the bat.

"I know you can move out and live with friends, rent a room, go to a hostel. I know you are not choosing to do so right now. I know you can deal with your stuff and you are choosing to do alone, without me, your partner. I hear what you're saying, that you feeling pressured by me, feel anger and shame, guilt and confusion, requiring you to really work on you; and I believe what I hear you saying at this moment is what you said exactly to me four months ago. I don't believe you. You made a rash decision to have an affair, so I understand your fear of making another rash decision. Four months is not rash, IMO. I know you are competent and capable. I know you're choosing to not do what it takes so that no matter what happens to our marriage you can say fully you tried everything."


"I understand losing who you are in an affair. Took a lot of lies to myself, justifications, resentment and entitlement to do what I did to our marriage. I know the formula. I know you know it, also. I had to make myself believe you wouldn't mind it, you wouldn't be devastated, and somehow, you deserved it for what you weren't doing to meet my ENs. Lots of lies involved. I had to choose our marriage afterwards, change my ways, and know it was a choice I made by myself, about me, not you. Only way for me to stop punishing, blaming, resenting you, which is what blocked up reality for me, stopped my loving feelings, my desire to be married to you. I know you know this; you're living it right now. I miss my real wife very much."

How honest you get...how you repeat back her stuff as hers is crucial to where you are right now. Each time you don't and you take in, you add to your own betrayal. That's you doing it, Dino. I can't tell you any other way.

When she writes, "Love, WW" then speak...say, "Ouch." That declaration is what you really hope for...not for her to feel love...for her to own her choice to love you as her husband and then act from it, anyway. Instead of backwards living from her feelings and non-feelings.

So many times I had to look DH in the eye and say "I love you" when I wasn't feeling loving...when I was feeling resentful and angry...my declaration of my choice...and then I do feel the loving feelings as a result...reminding myself to live forward.

I'm not saying this for your WW...I'm saying this for you, Dino. Maybe what I'm really asking as you repeat all of her words...tell us your words. One why question and then your internal responses...we see it. You want badly to act out your stuff...a signal you're not stating it.

It's not acting happy happy, joy, joy; it's acting respectful, very present, aware--all acts of commitment. It's stating, not demonstrating.

"When you say maybe after Hawaii you'll choose to either work on our marriage or leave it, based on how you might or might not feel then, I hear you saying you're okay with physically, mentally and emotionally torturing me with your rejection of me and our marriage."

"My intent is to bring you reality as you say you are confused right now. My goal is clarity, as well. I'm not blind to your acts of cruelty, deceit, discounting and rejection. Nor am I blind to your choice to be here with us, your family, choosing to be present in our marriage. I believe you are afraid, even as I am, of all the damage you have caused and have no control over the consequences of it. I know. I remember for myself. I'm not writing you a blank check of forgiveness. I'm offering to work on our marriage for two years, together, and then decide. I want a shot at having what we haven't experienced in years; a thriving partnership, with respect for what we can change in ourselves and acceptance we cannot change each other."

You don't add to her guilt, her anger, her stuff...she feels what she feels. Validate she feels, acknowledge it. It's hers. She feels guilt for not living up to the expectations of others (the military, her family); and shame for not living up to her own expectations. Lots of anger, as you well know, for self-inflicted wounds. She's got a lot, over five years worth in my reckoning. You reflecting the truth of her choices isn't going to push/pull/turn her. It's you bringing reality, so you can stand in it, too, and feel the relief.

You know, I do understand the fear of recommitment since you've been sharing, that I didn't before. I was asking my DH to act vulnerable to me, share his stuff with the person he had to make into his enemy a short time before. I was used as his justification to do what he did, including tearing down himself. That's like a mortal enemy, isn't it? And then, to "work on the marriage" this is the person I gotta share with, be radically honest to, spend a lot of time with? Whoa. That does sound kinda crazy, doesn't it?

Yet we do it, anyway. We do so because our best thinking/reasoning got us in this mess, this pit of pain. Why not rely on objective minds to get us out of it, until we can get clear and think clearly?

Isn't that the reversal of believing your feelings guide you to what you really want? Isn't that how we break the backward cycle of not basing our own choices on possible response? We hold to our code and act, anyway. All of it is practice.

I hear you saying she is unwilling to practice...what did she say when you asked for her to do communication exercises with you each week? How about those 15 hours of UA? Your plan remains...your goal is yours...when we don't make ourselves take the steps, we fail our plan...our plan doesn't fail us.

LA

LA

So much to take in. Did you really repeat back all this type of stuff to your DH? I just can't think that fast on my feet when we're having these talks. It's good for me just to stay away from the AO, DJ and LBs. I pride myself on that in itself. I'm nowhere near being able to think that fast in the middle of a talk. It all makes so much sense when I can stop and think about things and prepare a response but on the fly? I want to write all these things you say down on a letter and give it to her but I don't think it carries the weight of spoken words does it? She doesn't like my notes anyway, I think they make her feel reality too much. I think I'm going to write her anyway.

I have so much work to do to respond to your posts, I have so much to say but it is late right now, please forgive my tardiness. I would like to address a couple of things though. The plan is mine alone, there is no "we". One cannot Tango alone without a partner. 15 hrs of undivided attention, hmmm, we get 15 hrs together, more actually, doing everyday things trying to feel as normal as we can, I'm happy with that. UA and working on our marriage? I like to think that time together no matter what, is a plus for us. I think there is a misconception that me and WW have made a recovery agreement that just isn't working, that is not the case. There is no agreement to work on anything, the only thing that has been agreed upon is that we are here, for now, and that SOMETHING will happen SOMETIME. It's like being in a room full of fuel vapors, just the smallest spark can cause a huge explosion. But if we stay real still for awhile, small cracks will dissiate the fumes and it will be safe to move around and cause sparks, because nothing is going to explode. Thats me in a nutshell, I'm trying to be around when the fumes go away. Thats my master plan, to still have a marriage that I can maybe try to help salvage and resurrect into a marriage that can maybe be saved if there is one left to save. Do you follow me? I have nothing except the positive things I take from the now, as you put it. I have much to be happy for when i look at today. As long as I stare at the ground and look no further than my feet, I can find happy things. Any further out than that is where things get a little fuzzy.

I understand most of what you're telling me LA. It's just that much of it just doesn't matter to her. She isn't trying to save anything, she tells me that straight up. She is just here, waiting to start her new retired life away from here and maybe a spark may return. She says she feels dead, numb is the word she uses. NUMB, doesn't care about anything but herself and being alone and away from any stress, pressure thinking, period, her words not mine. I don't take those things in, I see and live it everyday, some days are good some suck. Some days she's really nice, even loving, how do I take that? How do I not get excited and set myself up for utter devastation and pain, again. If I act indifferent, she has no reason to continue the behavior. "Why act loving if it doesn't make him happy?" "if he's just going to be unhappy, why waste energy pretending to be loving, he acts the same when I'm not loving so whats the use. But if I get excited and respond to her loving, I get smacked in the soul by reality. She doesn't want me touching her, she doesn't even like me telling her I love her, she says it hurts, awww.

Should I write her a letter saying all these things? Will it have the same effect? I don't know. I'd really like to say these things to her but saying them outloud after the fact, when she has already forgotten what she's said is useless really. But if she read them and I presented them in a respectful and non-threatening tone, maybe she could take some in and reflect. I don't know, just wonder what you think. I alwyas thought letters were a good way to communicate without the pressure of response but she really got upset the last couple of times, not sure why, like I said, maybe reading it and seeing it in her face didn't make her feel good.

Thanks again LA, I need some time to process, I'll respond very soon.

I'm lost. I thought Steve Harley said to stay away from all relationship talk. Did I miss something?

Apparently, I'm in the minority here, but I disagree that telling your wife how much you are hurting, etc. is going to help. I firmly believe that your wife is not ready to work on the marriage right now and that is wrong to not accept this. I know you're hurting Dino, but I think if you want to have a future together, you just have to hang on until she gets to a place where she is ready to deal with the marriage. You can't demand things on your timeline. That doesn't mean that she always gets to control things or anything crazy like that. It just means that you have to go at the slowest person's pace. It could have been you that isn't ready and then I would be telling her to wait for you. It just happens to be that right now it's not.

Sorry, I'm editing my post because I just wanted to add that maybe a helpful way to look at this might be the way we heal our bodies. When you get hurt, your body puts a scab over the wound. If you keep picking at it, it will not heal. if you pick at it occasionally, it might eventually heal, but you leave an ugly scar. You pushing relationship talk is like picking the scab. The best way to heal and not leave as bad a scar is to NOT PICK THE SCAB DARN IT!!!! Just my 2 cents.

Snuggle,
Knowing you're still helping Dino makes me feel good for him. You're such a breath of fresh air. Miss talking to you but glad I don't need you all that much.
Fiori!!

fiori!!! I miss you too!! I wish there was a social area on here where we could interact more casually. You are a sweetie and I'm so glad you are doing well. If I were friends w/ anyone here in real life, it would be you for sure

Well then move to the East Coast and I'll look you up! It's amazing what a blessing and a curse this website can be. Sometimes I feel like it stirs me up and not necessarily in a good way, but most of the time I feel so lifted up by the encouragement from all. Oh, and the occassional whoopin'.

Snuggle, I completely understand your perspective, and it could be applicable. But he's saying that he's getting so distraught that he's starting to not like her any more. To be so upset that he can't see the forest for the trees any more. And it's been what, 8 or 9 months? With absolutely not one word of commitment from her? The only good thing I've ever heard her say (from his description) is that she sometimes talks about future plans. Aside from that, she steadfastly refuses to even meet him halfway.

I totally get the pressure and grief she's under. But he's sounding more and more like someone ready to cut and run. So I think a Plan B, if nothing else, would preserve what's left.

Dino,

I want to fully support Snuggle's suggestion...and to say why we limited it to 20 minutes a week...like a pressure valve for me...and I got a love deposit from WH because he agreed and stuck to it, also. So it wasn't all or nothing...we negotiated it. I then knew I had a place and time to ask questions (lots were A-related, of course, 'cuz he was still in it) and I wasn't looking at months ahead with nada.

What did Steve say about R talk?

In a much earlier post, I shared with you that I waited three months for my WH to decide whether he was leaving the marriage for OW, leaving for himself or staying to work on the marriage. Which is how I saw myself in your situation (and I couldn't comprehend doing so for seven plus months when three months was excruciating). During that waiting time, I did my plan...which included 15 hours of UA in the form of recreational time together...playing...and this was during his withdrawal, too; I did listen and repeat when he spoke, shared...I committed to it as a way for me to really learn to listen...to hear clearly, not take into myself what wasn't mine...and yes, it was really tough. Slowed down my response (I became seemingly ponderous wheretofore, he was the slow to speak one), made my goal clarity--not to control, cure or cause him anything...to really hear his statements and repeat back. Sounds odd writing it...sounds respectful speaking it. Going for clarification or confirmation changed everything for ME.

Including changing us from enemies back into allies...for to truly hear him new, without assuming he's saying the same phrases again, that act of respect and love was evident, different. Not responding to his stuff, truly hearing it. That's why I shared what held me together back then--strive first to understand, then be understood. All my life, gotta own it, I did that backwards. If only they would understand me, then they wouldn't think/feel/believe/react as they do.

Backwards living--Dino, I lived what I'm talking about.

Personal recovery requires you to do different; choose differently than before and where you chose from. Just does...that's ongoing even when your spouse hasn't recommitted to anything. And even when DH did so, on 12-15-04, he did it angrily, citing his love for his son (still at home) and his belief that ultimately, this would be the path to his happiness. He didn't want to, still worked with OW, and it was two more weeks before he transferred and NC really began. He told me that night that he had already made up his mind to commit to working on the marriage (for two years) weeks before that, but didn't see any point in telling me of his decision.

And I had previously thought this man, my spouse, was incapable of overt cruelty. I knew well my own to him...so understanding he was able and willing to act cruelly was a revelation. Didn't end anything--began seeing him as a whole, respecting all that he was, is and will be...knowing him anew. Two weeks after NC, I got more revelations about the A, and a few along the way straggled out for two months more.

Yet here we are married today...in a very different way...enjoying our grandbabies, our adult children (okay, so YS is borderline), and facing new challenges as a team, instead of enemies. I chose each day along the way to act differently than before, to break my patterns...and yeah, they come back in the form of struggling, bad-down days. I know. I remember. Same thing can happen today, even. Depends on where I spend my thoughts...investing them in his stuff or my own. Check myself or check him.

No, I'm not supposing you're anywhere near recovery. I don't believe she is in NC. I believe she calls him, still. Again, the anger, the cruelty didn't stop until WH went truly NC...and I verified for a long time. Now, about twice a year. The fog doesn't go away until contact is in place along with withdrawal. Both are necessary to really begin marital recovery. Not personal recovery.

The UA was essential for me, too...so I could pull myself into the present...and RC really helped me to do that...I could feel my DJs at work, pulling me into the past or the future while we played...and we shot pool, air hockey, darts; took walks around a big lake in our area, did our exercises, which we came to love and depend on...and yes, we were doing them before he recommitted. Why? Who doesn't want to become skilled at communication? Another partnering action we both took...and my DH gets huge kudos for doing all of that stuff, even though he didn't feel like doing it, firmly believed that I would never forgive him, would punish him if he stayed...and he stayed present, anyway. To this day, he tells me in tender moments how he remains blown away by my changes back then through now. And I tell him the same.

Last night we watched "The Diving Bell and the Butterfly" in subtitles, and I went downstairs afterwards, pretty shook up, and he followed...and I wasn't present and was scurrying around the kitchen for water, and he had to say, "Hey, turn around, please." And I did, and he held my face and looked in my eyes and he said, "I love you" and kissed me in this lovely, focused, connective way...and it was worth four years of anything. I promise you. For I looked in his eyes, thinking, "This is my husband, my blessing" and said, "I love you" and kissed him back. (The end of the movie was a bit of a shock to us.)

Allies, Dino. Partners. No, it isn't pretty, fair or guaranteed. I just know that after two years had he chosen to end the marriage, I would be okay. I'd broken my enmeshment, injected respect, learned a ton, and was okay with loving, anyway. No longer caught in the tit for tat, giving to get. I couldn't do "normal" back then...our normal wasn't healthy, respectful or connecting. I had to do Harley's advice, and as you can see, I'm really grateful for it and my choice to live it...not dependent on WH's response at the time. That was the hardest and best possible achievement, in my book.

I remember those vapors and fearing explosions, Dino. I do get where you are at, the eggshells and all. I remember having to pull my focus BACK onto what was within my control, my own explosions. Each time we interacted, with me listening and repeating, using my own "I" statements for my stuff, without AO'ing or DJing...my WH took another look at me. I earned back trust in myself and from my partner for ending my ways. Even though I remember blowing it twice in a big way in those two months. And when I blew it little...refuting instead of repeating back...reactive...I would catch myself and own it--hey, look at the old me popping up. Not what I want, DH. You were saying <blank>--because I wanted with all my heart to not fail my own code, not be who I was...and I'm not.

You may not have the desperate motivation I did, Dino. You may well believe that you have not LB'd as harshly, been as cruel or abominable as I know I was (taking inventory for six months and finding more throughout the years posting here in myself); maybe that is what is behind your craving for her to get on board or get off the ship. I do understand that...and I fought for the NC...verified when it happened to the best of my ability, and still found out more contact, more ILYs and was bold enough to set boundaries in our home...where he had to go outside in the 30-degree weather to do so. He abided those, even in the fog, btw. I had a deadline you don't have, Dino. Maybe that is another important difference. Because he agreed to go to MC together to make his decision, the MC required he give me a rough estimate of when he would make his decision by, which was by the first of the coming year. Then MC looked at me and said, "What's your choice, then?" And I answered, "I accept that."

No magic pill...knowing I signed up for the wait time, the unknown, my choice...helped a great deal. I truly wanted to have the opportunity to be the partner I believe I could be and hadn't been. Maybe you've been the great partner, Dino. So this unknown feels like a constant rub, put-down, torment. My perspective, my hunger for the opportunity was what I would focus on when the torment (non-affection, unkindness, reading the love letters he wrote to her, new pictures taken of her two days before recommitting) approached untenable. God wasn't finished with me yet. At any time I could have cried "Uncle!" and chosen differently. I didn't. I held on and began posting here on MB, and JustLearning and Pepperband posted to me...helped me see my DJs kicking my own heart, adding to the torment and disrespect of my DH.

So I do that for you, too. Passing it on.

I listed my transgressions throughout our marriage, and there were many; I picked the largest and studied them, then wrote them down, said what my stinkin' thinkin' was, and why and how I would not do them again. MC had us do a resentment timeline which cleared away a ton of what was weighing me down, adding to my spinning and pendulum of stay/go. That helped me stay focused on me, my goal...and find WH's very presence (for he had moved out for a month) a treasure, a chance...an opportunity. Each time he agreed to go play, I felt gratitude, blessed...might be the last time...turns out, it wasn't. Each exercise, each joint MC session, all blessings above what I could possibly deserve, given my own past actions.

Helped owning all of my choices to the MC, too...like an accountability partner...and MC began the SA treatment, too, with WH, even in the fog...I remember WH stating he was an SA and then telling me, before recommitment, of a secret from his childhood. 18 years I knew him and did not know that. Stunned me.

I'm not telling you what matters to her or doesn't...I'm speaking to you, for you, about you, Dino...neither of us really knows what matters to her...nor do I think does she right now...the fog persists with contact, with the maintaining resentment and thinking magically (that life just happens instead of owning our responsibility and limits). Others here can direct you to do this so she may think/feel/believe/perceive...I don't. I can't. Wasn't that way for me to recovery. It WAS that way throughout my marriage, which was a slingshot back and forth of abuse, bliss, and crushing pain into each other. That's my limit...I can't say, "If you say this, then she'll think this." I learned what you say is about YOU...means the world...is an act of intimacy you choose...not her.

I do understand you're repeating what she says...and I believe you're repeating it in your head, your focus being sucked into it...making you reactive. Stop repeating it in your head. It's hers...Facts are: She is there. She has not filed for divorce. She can leave. You can ask her to leave. All those are facts...the rest is stuff, Dino...not The Truth...stop making it The Truth. Her messed up stuff is hers...don't buy into it. When my WH said angrily to me, "If I do what MC and you say and stop thinking about OW, then I won't care about her by the first of the year if I decide to leave you and be with her!" Uh, yeah. That's the plan. Took another nine months after that for him to see FOW in his mind as half responsible for the A. Fog doesn't leave quickly...has tendrils in odd places, and you stumble across them. When WW acts loving, state what you're seeing and appreciate her choices aloud to her. Share your stuff as your own...informing. Right then. Commit to doing this...and you'll share when you feel rejected...and find out how much you're perceiving and how much is intended... Clearing your own decks, Dino.

This was the way through for me...and I read threads on MB, articles, books, but I had the MC to share with...my family...friends and coworkers. We make it through, together. I can't imagine anyone truly doing it alone. And my WH became FWH became DH...and we are new every day. And we live that way. I practiced, too, alone before WH became FWH and got on board. I just know it was his choice, every inch of his way...I couldn't manipulate or control his progress or actions...and at times, I railed at the slowness, spiraled from the rejection...and hit the surface again, treading for myself, recentering and kept going. I don't believe there was another way for me, for it was this way. For you, may be very different.

LA

Steve never said to stay away from R talks, he just told me to say a couple of specific things to her. She kind of laughed at what I said and said I should save my money if I'm paying for it. I think we just need to limit our time when we have them, they get long and drawn out adn after a while it starts to be unproductive. I purposely avoid talks no more than once a month, just so know we're both thinking about it. Each one has just been a repeat of the last for 4 months so it's useless for now. I just don't know what to do. It seems that all advice has at least a small element of involvement from 2 people and I don't have that, at least thats my perception from what she tells me.

I should be taking LA advice and using my energy to get my "stuff" together before I do anything else, period. So I do agree with you Snuggle. Last weekend was our monthly talk that didn't go so well again. Mostly because we just aren't able to communicate without emotion yet, everything still seems so fresh in our minds. Wife hasn't seemed to move ahead at all, i feel for her, I really do.

Ok, the relationship talks aren't working so cut them out for now. You don't need to take a monthly temperature. It's artificial and if you learn to truly listen to your wife and be her friend first, you will know what the temperature already is. Maybe take a break from judging so much whether or not your wife has moved ahead or backward or to the left. I think it makes it harder to listen to her when you do that because you get so busy trying to draw conclusions you don't see what's going on anymore. Right now it doesn't seem like you know her and you won't if you keep saying you won't.

Oh one last thing ... there is a big difference between preparing for the worst and expecting the worst. At work I prepare for the worst, but I *always* expect the best from my people. The managers who don't are the ones who consistently fail to get the most out of their people.

Snuggle, I don't like the talks and I want to avoid them but part of me and my change towards being completely O&H involves relating my feelings. These build up over weeks, I could choose to keep them inside but they start to rot, turn to poison and I don't want that, I am one who can hate rather easy, it doesn't take me long to turn pain into hatred, it's an easy transition and pretty satisfying. I don't want that and having everything out helps immensely. We don't scream and yell or do anythign like that when we talk, we just haven't gone anywhere. I'm beginning to get a clear picture of whats she's trying to tell me. I wish I could take things at face value but she isn't O&H with me so there is no level of trust for her. The very last thing I say everytime we have a talk is that "at the very least, I deserve for you to be honest with me, nothing you say can hurt me anymore than you already have. Give me the respect to be able to make my choices from accurate information. If want to be gone or want me to go, tell me, don't string me out" I try to trust her, but her actions speak otherwise and feel like that much more of a fool. I'm already ashamed of how I've handled this whoe situation. I've been a text book doormat. I'm embarrassed at my behavior and frankly, I don't have the stones to do anything about it yet. I'm still frozen with fear of the unknown but I'm getting out of it, I feel it everyday, a little closer. But a new fear grows, fear that I will throw things away. I don't know.

I'm still ok, I always said I would hang until I couldn't so I'm still true to my word on that. I think if I could do this whole thing again, I would do it different, damn the outcome. Hindsite 20/20 right?

As for being her friend, I don't know how I could make that anymore clear to her Snuggle. I stood by her through all this legal BS while it was fresh in my heart. Listened to the horrible things she did to me and wrote a character letter to help lessen the punishment. I held her when she cried about her career while she continued to [censored] on me the whole time. I cooked, cleaned, brought her dinner, listen to her vent about work. I stood next to her while they read the charges against her and held her hand. I held my tongue while she disregards me every minute of the day. I do know what the temperature is, cold. You are right about knowing her though, I get into that rut of expecting. It kind of sneaks up without you even knowing it. I'm really working on getting to know her, so far I'm not liking what I see. But things aren't good, so it's understandable.

And I totally agree with what you said about expecting from people. I always give everyone the good benefit of the doubt, especially my people. You have to prove to me you are a dirtbag before I label you one. Unfortunately, the title dirtbag fits right now. I'm not being nasty, just trying to be truthful about how I feel. I want to trust, to know, to expect the best from her. Right now though, she is failing at all the above. I've never put any expectations on her, no pressures to do anything. I'm just here and waiting. Actions speak volumes, I'm not assuming, attaching meaning, guessing. She is doing all these things openly and overtly being this way. Still usign our past as justification for everything but at the same time saying "I'm not trying to bring this up again or rub it in your face, but all this is because of blah blah blah blah". "I wouldn't have done this if you didn't blah blah blah blah" Like I said, I'm ashamed of how I've handled myself in all this. Ashamed for my lack of self respect and ashamed of what I stand by and watch how she treats me, our marriage and our family. Things are going to change, it is inevitable. I still have the same desires fro our future, but I am only half of this. I can hold it together for awhile, but it's all show. I can't do it alone, she will have to want it too. or it's all just time gone by.

Hi Dino and happy Friday (although I think you are half a day ahead of me so it's probably already Saturday now) ... I've been super busy with work this week and am glad to finally have a break although really I have to do some planning for next week, so I'll still be thinking about work even though I'm not actually there doing it ...

Anyway, I have been thinking about your post. I didn't mean to imply that you should not be O&H. I think there's a difference between being O&H and having relationship talks. Being O&H is saying "I'm feeling stressed about not knowing where we stand." I think you can say that, but I think you should say that w/o any follow up conversation trying to figure out where you stand. It's the follow up conversation that does the major LBing and the follow up conversation, I suspect, is not about being O&H, but about trying to regain control.

I am glad to hear that you are losing your fear of the unknown. That's powerful for all areas of life, not just marriage. Personally, not fearing the unknown is what keeps me out of jobs I hate and in jobs that I love. I wish my dad could lose his fear because then I think he would be more capable of letting go of his adult children. So here's the distinction I want to make sure you see ... not fearing the unknown means you see the entire spectrum of possibilities for the future equally ... from the very good to the very bad. If you feel you must weight the possibilities, be sure you do so accurately and not let your natural pessimism (or optimism as the case may be) skew your judgment. This is different from recognizing the worst outcome and being ok with it/feeling like you can survive it. That is not losing fear ... that's being ready to give up. I know that's not who you want to be. It's a fine line that I think can be hard to see.

Don't feel embarrassed. You are behaving just fine. There is no perfect way to act when something like this happens. It's ok to show some emotion when a crisis happens. For sure it's ok to FEEL a lot of emotion in a crisis. From what you've told me though, you have never lost your head and that's what counts. I have a few friends deployed in Iraq & Afghanistan now, so I'll tell you what I sometimes tell them ... just don't do anything crazy!!

Snuggle,
I sent out an SOS to you...I need some guidance. Can you go to my "can I trust my insticts now?" in GQ2? I know you'll say the right thing and help me out.

Sorry Dino...I hope all goes well with your day today.

Snuggle
Thanks for looking in on me. I've really been in a different mind set lately. I'm trying so hard not to let myself get away. I'm just so tired of feeling like this. I need to protect myself so I can feel me sliding to the other side of the spectrum. I find myself starting to demonize her, LB in secret, make her look bad so it doesn't hurt so much but it doesn't work either. It's just been so long and there is still nothing.

I'm moving to New Mexico. The kids and her are moving back to Arizona, I'll retire in about 9 months and move to Arizona too. I want to be away from her. It will kill me but this is worse than that. This is torture. I'm taking this day by day but it's now becoming a struggle, days last forever. I just want them to be over, to move to the next so that were another day closer to something else, I don't care what at the moment, just something different than this.

We had a good day in London yesterday. Weather was perfect. Last chance to see it I believe. The kids had a good time. Her and I occupy two different spaces, two different dimensions, like we pretend we're by ourselves, it's pathetic. Grown people acting like this. I thought I left this kind of stuff behind in highschool, I'm 42 yrs old and it's still the same, maybe it's me, I'm the common demoninator.

I'm still getting better, my desire to do it with her is shrinking by the day though. I hope there is a shred of want in me by the time we leave here. There is nothing left for me to do other than survive and get out of here.

So ... um ... what are you doing about this?!! Are you trying to tell me that it's ok to LB as long as nobody knows about it? C'mon Dino, I'm not going to let you off easy on this one!

Dr. Harley calls LBing a "stupid and abusive strategy." You need to be working so hard on erasing all stupid and abusive behavior right now that you don't even have time to think about what your wife is doing or not doing. What's that silly think my teacher used to say ... when you point the finger at someone else, four are pointing back at you.

Let's keep it simple. Get your brain back to focusing on YOU and what YOU need to do (which is stop LBing). That's it. When you completely stop ... then you may think about other things. Got it? Good.

Please listen to Snuggle, Dino...

You want more than a shred to leave with, then stop draining your own love bank with the LBs in your head.

One important step is to stop focusing on outcome. When you focus on outcome and not your actions, you do lose yourself...you abandon and harm yourself. Stop. Now.

You aren't in two different dimensions...you were right there, same space, place and time. Well, you weren't. Being present with your whole being, shepherding your own thoughts, that's where you're doubling your pain. You are giving yourself this experience...like you're self-punishing in some way is how I see it.

If you'll punish yourself, you'll punish her...please stop.

Right here, right now...revoke your permissions to go into the future or the past. Pain time is really slow...moves like "Slow glass" (you can distract and look up that marvelous short story on the internet). Being present cuts the pain time slowness in half. It's where we all live...unless we choose differently. Then we're in fantasy.

I think you've had enough fantasy intrude into your life...and what you post here would be GREAT to make into simple statements to your WW. "Here's what I discovered I do in my head and I'm working on it."

"Here's my fear that I won't have a shred of love for you left because I experience you as if you're in another dimension."

Take your eyes off outcome--no human can live from it, divine from it or choose well from it. Not in our control. Focus on your code, your stuff and live now, Dino.

It was reading MB which helped me realign time after time in doing this...my old thing...how much of my life was spent spiraling downward because of my choice to focus on outcome...way too much. You don't deserve this great harm you are doing to yourself--nor does your family, your life.

Our focus on our situations can take over the situation, distort and lock us in. Free yourself. Who you are right now is sufficient unto this day...it was never sufficient to take the past into now nor equipped to experience the future as now. Reality only holds this moment. You know that. I'm reminding.

LA

So...you guys are going to be in adjoining states? How awesome is that? You practically couldn't ask for a better situation! I see lots of weekends and long weekends with your kids and being able to Plan A your W. Don't you?

cat

Thank you for the positive reinforcement. It's about a 9 hr drive to Tucson from Clovis. I really am thankful. I hope for it to be a new beginning for all of us. It's going to be tough for all of us with the wife retiring and trying to keep up 2 households for awhile, but I'm hoping for the best. I just want the kids to be happy, they're going to be around grandma/grandpa and cousins so that's worth it all.

Ok, so it looks like I have my focus for the next couple of weeks, at least through our trip to Hawaii. The last couple of days have really been kind of different. I really went into a different state. I was cursing her under my breath big time. I'm starting to get a little short in the patience department. It's been 7 months since she's been home. I haven't had sex in almost 15 months and it's getting to me. Should I share this with her? I asked her when we had had our talk if she ever thought about sex, she said not in the least, and then she said, "I guess I don't have to ask you, do I?". So she knows what I need, she is choosing to ignore it or she really doesn't care.

Anyway, I have my project. It's not hard to keep my head straight about that kind of stuff. I pretty much just let myself go astray for awhile. It didn't do me any good so it shouldn't be hard to stop.

Thanks for the shake up!

Pain time really is slow. It seems like I'm in a constant state of pain LA. It never really goes away, like an ache, like how I'm used to my back hurting. It's always there, I just don't notice it when I'm distracted. That is so hard. Right, but hard. It's hard not to look at possible outcomes when there is so much at stake. I understand why you say it and it is the key. It used to be easy for me, when I didn't care what people think, I didn't care what My wife thought or anyone else. But I can't help but thinking that, that mentality is part of the reason I'm here now.

Anyway, things are going good I guess. She seems to be in a comfortable place, at least she looks like it. We'll be busy from here on out getting ready for the move. Hopefully there aill enough distractions to make the time go quick.

Hope your weekend was good

Dino, you silly knucklehead (and I say that with only the deepest affection for you) ... your wife is a woman and as such there are a lot more than TWO options for why she does or does not do something! LOL!! Seriously though, when you hear yourself making an either/or statement like that check yourself. Don't let yourself fall into black/white thinking ... that is how children and the immature think. You're an adult, you know the world is full of gray and you have to see that if you're going to make good decisions.

Man, you are going to be spending years breaking that half-empty habit of yours my friend. If we were talking about this over beers, this is where I lean over and pat your hand sympathetically

I will give you another possibility ... maybe she thinks you're taking care of your "needs" yourself ... especially now that you are sleeping downstairs where you get more privacy ... hee, hee! Ok, this topic is getting dangerous ...

Hope your Monday was good ... mine was manic ... just like that song ... LOL!

I know I know, things are never black white. That is killing me. I really like to know where I am, you know?

Snuggle, I've been thinking about this time thing alot lately. It's been awhile since all of this has come to light. Am I doing ok? I mean, time-wise am I (or we) proceeding at a pace that is pretty common in these situations? i don't read them anymore, but some of the stories I read here, it seems like people get started and progress more when compared to how we are doing. Granted that's because both people are participating but I can't believe that I'm in a "unique" situation. Can it really take this much time for her to make the decision whether or not she wants to try? I'm never going to be able to read her mind, but to me, stay or go is probably the easiest of all the million questions we're going to have to answer over the next year. What can she possibly be waiting for Snuggle? I mean, if I'm really making her as unhappy as she says, what is keeping her? I'm glad she hasn't left but I also don't wish her to stay for the wrong reasons, I've told her this.

I'm still sad and lonely. Just inside my heart though. I'm doing pretty well all in all. She still doesn't touch or kiss me, it's depressing. She doesn't tell me she loves me to my face. I get jealous when I hear her say it to my kids, is that wrong of me? I still miss her alot.

As far as the sex thing, I'm surprised I haven't gone off the deep end on that. Besides being a kid, I've never come close to going this long without. I don't think about it much. I miss the intimacy with her but I don't crave the physical act as much as I thought I would. The emotional thing is what hurts the most. Although it's not an issue right now, it could definitely be in the future. Would it be shallow to base the success of your marriage on sex? I sometimes think it would but I have also felt the pain of dealing with the lack of physical affection and it's not a healthy thing. Man there is so much conflicting information gonig through my head.

I want to stay married to my wife, I love her. I want us both to be happy, I want my kids to keep their parents together and I want to grow old with her. Thats all I want out of life. I can't see it being any simpler than that but it all seems so complicated. Everything else I do in life revolves around those wants. I don't know if that is a realistic thing or not but for the moment, there is nothing more important to me than that, nothing.

About thinking you know what your wife is thinking:

I have it on good authority that every human being suffers from doubt and self-recrimination and fear. Most actions that you see anyone take are usually based on one of those. Fear of being judged, rejected, ridiculed, blamed, disappointing... I hear in your W's words that she is acting through such thoughts. If you can readjust what you see from her, it might help you reach a better place with her. For instance, I used to think my H was very outgoing and sure of himself; after 30 years, I've realized he has an enormous sense of not being as good as everyone else, so he tries to overcome it with his work and words; but at the end, he's still shaking in his boots that someone will discover the 'ugly truth' - that he's not as worthy as everyone else.

I think your W suffers from the same ugly truth syndrome, especially after what's happened. I see her not being willing to give you another try as her fear and guilt not allowing her to put herself out there so you can crush her, as she so rightly deserves (in her mind). Perhaps the best thing you can do is make her feel safe.

I'm really doing all I can think of to make her feel safe cat, i really am. I think I go out of my way even, to help her realize that I am not out to get her or that she needs to think of me as an enemy. I don't want her to fear me for any reason but I think you're absolutely right, she is afraid. One of the reasons I moved out of the bed is so that she wouldn't feel the slightest pressure from me about physical touch or otherwise. I remove all pressure form her concerning house or kids, she is living a quite comfortable life right now. I try not to guess her thinking, I'd be a fool to try. I've never been right before, why would I start now?

You know, everything I need to do goes against every human instinct I know. I love her but I shouldn't feel bad if she doesn't love me back. I should make her feel safe while I am attacked daily. I should be patient while she takes the time she needs to figure out if I'm even in her future, but I'm also not supposed to think about the future. I should try to fulfill what emotional needs she allows me to fill while simultaneously existing without a single one of my emotional needs being filled by anyone.

I think she is haunted by some things cat,many things, but I've also told her that we don't have to sacrifice our whole way of life because of some mistakes. I made them, you made them, now lets learn and move on, she stuck. I'm deathly afraid that she may verywell let our marriage die to help her cope with the things she's done. She has, of course, rewritten our whole marriage. It was always been bad and she was always been unhappy. We've never been supportive of each other, I've never done anything that a husband should do. She's been faking it all these years and the only thing that kept her around was our kids but they are old enougt that they don't need her anymore so she has no reason to stay, so she says.

I just want to move ahead, i wish she could see that.

Please correct me if I'm wrong...are you saying you're overdoing now? That only leaves room for her to under-do. Which means she won't have FEELINGS as a result of her acts of love.

Acts of love aren't pressure...if you're excluding her because you DJ pressure, then you're breaking the connection which comes from her acts of DS, FC. I hope I'm wrong. Overdoing is NOT love...it's about control.

And it interferes with her relationship with her kids, too.

Now, she's half of allowing it, if this is the case. Seems to me you are doing her thinking for her in this regard, though you believe would be a fool to do so.

Gosh, so many shoulds in your second paragraph.

How are you attacked daily?

You chose this route, Dino...you chose to not go to Plan B when it was time...you chose to do this and your last post sounds to me like a victim without choice. Being done to rather than choosing.

That's what I hear.

About her faking it..."I hear you saying you chose to lie to me every day of our marriage, is that correct?"

Bring reality...really tough when you lose your grip on it. Treat her as the equally able, competent person she is...show her choices, not her viewpoint, 'k? Stop overdoing...and don't underdo...again, you remain living in lies as long as you do not tell your kids.

Hawaii is coming up...are you still choosing to expose then?

Listen to the fog...her kids don't need her anymore when this is the time they need their parents the most. The time when they are rebelling against the world to define who they are...very critical time...and no safe place to fall.

LA

Hey Dino! How was your day?

To answer your first question, I think you are doing just fine. I don't think your situation is unique in the sense that only one person in the relationship is actively applying MB techniques or wholeheartedly trying to save the marriage. I've read other threads here that seem to be in a similar situation. I think you are probably just noticing more the threads where it seems like the relationship is progressing quickly ... they are probably of more interest to you, so it just SEEMS like that, but if you read all the threads, you'd see it is just one small sliver of the relationship universe.

As an objective observer, I don't find it that strange that your wife has still not made a decision. This is mostly because of the stress she's been under at work and because of your upcoming move back to the U.S. I know for me, having big things like that hanging over my head make it hard to want to take on more big things (such as working on the marriage), so if I could I would delay it until I got one or more of the other big things off my plate. I think she's waiting for the move to be over. I don't think she'll stay for the wrong reasons. She's been through too much to do that now.



Ok, here's another great example of you falling into black/white thinking. In your statement here, either you make her unhappy or not. Actually though you make her unhappy sometimes ... happy other times. Wouldn't you agree that is closer to the truth? And if that is the truth, then you can see what is keeping her ... the weight of the happy times versus the weight of the unhappy times. So like Steve Harley told you, you're job is to make the happy times weigh more. Your wife's no dummy, if she thinks it's likely that she could have more happy times, she'll be there.

I've heard that a lot of dads sometimes feel jealous of their kids for taking away their wives' attention/love. It's probably not good, but I think as long as you don't act on it, it's ok to have negative feelings. It's something to examine and could lead to a better understanding of yourself.

Well with regard to the sex thing, I think you will survive just fine. I'm sure there must have been millions of men who have gone much longer without for various reasons. My grandparents were separated for 20 years, so it could be A LOT worse! And yes I personally do think it would be shallow to base the success of your marriage on sex. What if one of you were hurt in such a way that sex just wasn't even possible? Would you leave your wife over that? I know people do, but I can't help thinking they must never had had real love in their marriage to be so callous. It's just my opinion, so if you feel differently that is ok too.

Take it easy and take good care of yourself Dino!

Sorry LA, but I'm not comprehending what you're asking here. I don't know DS, FC, I'm sorry. I don't know what you mean by me excluding her? And I'm not quite sure of the acts of love you refer to. Are you saying that me staying in the bed with her is an act of love? Sorry LA, maybe I'm just a little slow today but I'm really confused right now. Not quite sure how this relates either. Her relationship with the kids seems perfectly fine. Obviously I don't know whats going through their minds but they seem healthy and happy. You're right about this part but I do have some questions. I assumed Plan B included the children correct? I'm kind of fuzzy on that, I could've moved out without the kids but that would only have punished myself and the kids. Regardless of any of that, I did choose my path and I am dealing with consequences and I accept that. That is a great line, I'll use it next time she uses her line. I am going to expose in Hawaii. I'm going to wait until after the wedding, it would be seflish of me to bring gloom to the family before we celebrate the wedding of my brother and sister. We'll see where it goes from there.
I hear you on this one, it's her "woe is me" statement and all fog about the marriage.

She's in a different place LA. I wish I could do better but I'm no expert and I can't help but be a little emotional about all of this. I really appreciate you guys being here to slap me around when I need it. I definitely haven't been doing my best work over the last week or so. It's really hard for me to communicate with her when she keeps me at arms length all the time. There is nothing LA, nothing right now. I don't know what to do because we aren't DOING anything but living day to day. I think there is an assumption that we are working together towards something but that is not the case, we haven't agreed to do anything but wait and SEE what happens.

I can't tell the future but I've decided to plan my future regardless of her intent. I'm getting ready to retire within 2 yrs, I have to get started now. I was going to postpose buying a house until we had US figured out but I'm not waiting. I'm going to buy my house for the kids and I since they are going to Arizona, I don't really mind if she stays there too especially until I retire and join them. I told her last night that I can qualify for the home own my own and that she didn't need to obligate herself to a mortgage is she didn't want to.

I'm trying. I hope I haven't sounded brash or unappreciative. I would be lost without your help LA. I have to take a little at a time, hopefully more steps forward than back.

thanks again

Here's where I heard you over-doing. Quite a comfortable life...through my filter, that means you the domestic service (DS), family commitment (FC)...which is interacting with the kids, problem-solving, playing, supervising chores, etc.

EN list...SF, FS, FC, DS, RC, etc.

Does thinking you would look like a fool (or be one) stop you from doing harm to others and yourself?

(I ask because it is a romanticized notion to be a fool for love, a fool to fight for your marriage, foolish to want, need, feel...etc.)

Would you say she's doing half the chores, meal preparations, housework, time connecting with the kids both in fun and structured work? You've mentioned family time together...an outing together in rare nice weather...so I guess I don't know what you mean that she's living very comfortably right now...I infer she wasn't before deployment, did the majority of DS and FC and worked, too. That's my mind at work.

What pressure do you really believe you can remove? Do you mean SD's...Selfish Demands? Ultimatums? Pressure to talk about R (you said this was at once a month roughly, is that correct?), to recommit, to stop her A? If the last, why would you stop asking for that and continuing exposure with each contact...to bust up the A? As long as their is contact, then she cannot get clear of the fog nor commit to the marriage. Committing to real NC is big, Dino. You already know this and you've chosen to not pursue that avenue.

It's gonna hurt and rile you...swing you back and forth to the extremes and you're going to feel your love bank plummet. That's what I see you doing right now.

Not faults...choices.

As for what I said about the kids' relationship...they are being lied to by her and you every day. They don't see her acting affectionately, bonding or committed. She isn't acting respectful of them or you...all tied together...and they, too, are in limbo land...don't know if you guys are going to work it out or not...so at times, they continue the lie to themselves...this is nothing...I'm seeing this wrong...when they hurt for you...for her...and fear as much as you do for their future as a family.

A's hurt everyone's relationship. You may see theirs as healthy...might be as healthy as you feel yours is...when they find out you both were actively lying to them for 18 months, it's gonna hurt a lot. I know you know this.

Just as you read here when the WH doesn't reveal his past A's for five, ten, 15 years...hurts more than it would have at the time...humans recognized they've been duped, manipulated and controlled through lies by omission as much as commission. They knew you had to choose not to include them in reality in their family; just as WS's choose not to in their marriage. To protect their spouses, though the damage is already there, felt and done...the explanation is not. The truth is obscured.

Plan B is where you have no contact with WW except filtered through an intermediary. Your kids still see WW...you arrange for pick ups and drop offs without visual or audible contact. The kids do not Plan B their mother. They may choose to not see her (your kids' ages) or not, when finally told the truth. Usually, they still want to visit the wayward parent.

They have separate means of contacting and being contacted by the WS--not through you. You tell your kids what you are doing and why...just like you write the way back letter, the Plan B letter, saying what you're doing, why you're doing it (to save your marriage) and the steps she can choose to do to come back to the marriage. It's a love letter.

Your kids will feel punished for a crime they didn't commit because of your WW's adultery. Those consequences continue...and you will feel punished, as well...up to KNOW what you're doing and why...I don't believe you ever asked your WW to leave, did you? First came the court proceedings, then OM's...now all over(?) and then the decision to wait until after returning to the US to decide...that's all my perception.

Are you saying you asked her to leave and she wouldn't...so your only choice would have been to move out and leave the kids? Hence, you guys feeling punished again for her choice to have an A? And that's why you did not go to Plan B?

I don't believe you can go to Plan B without telling your children the truth. You are planning exposure to extended family after the wedding, while on the family trip, correct? So you are asking your WW to move out while still in London, for September and October...to go to Plan B?

You are so powerful in your own mind...you gonna bring gloom and doom to a wedding because your wife committed adultery? I'm challenging you to hear yourself, because your brain constantly listens to you and believes you are that powerful, and in turn, so is she...all humans. They can pressure someone into a decision they will regret...we make many choices we regret...no one has the power to pressure us...we can definitely feel pressure on our decisions.

We can mourn this murder of your marriage when we hear about it, too...can feel fearful, gloomy, even...doesn't mean your honesty did that to us...means KNOWING the truth, which breaks our assumptions, our beliefs you had some great, strong marriage going does that.

An aside...your brother and sister are getting married????

LOL

Is this a double wedding...your brother marrying someone else, at the same time and place your sister is marrying someone else?

You chose to have one session with Steve Harley. How 'bout another one? Share your plans for Hawaii, for exposure, for Plan B, checking to see if you're over-doing or not, and how not informing your teenagers about their mother's infidelity, which may influence or not their choices of whom they choose to live with--run it all by him again and get his opinion...that way you will have expert information, too.

Why would you offer to your WW to allow her to live in a house you buy on your own as she continues to attack your marriage? Why would you do that? Seriously...trace your thought processes...you've already protected and kept secret her affair for eight months, you've funded their calls and continued contact, are you truly going to offer to support her wayward state of mind and acts against your marriage, too?

Or are you looking for a tenant...said you'd buy in Arizona for retirement preparation, while being stationed in NM, nine hours away, so is this using her to live with the kids at "your house" so that you're not renting it out? Or have I got the locations confused...you're going to buy a house in NM and are asking WW to come live with the kids and you there?


Do you hear you basing your ability on her response? You either share or you don't share...your choice. Even sharing, "Because I feel shut out, arm's length by you, my wife, I am choosing to add to my betrayal by not informing you of my thoughts, do not hold myself to respectfully communicating. I feel punished for your affair, rejected and excluded right now."

You do and you don't do...and you're not doing based on her rejection. Which doubles the rejection in you, doesn't it? She's doing it to you and you're doing it to yourself...tons of hurt in that. You're not safe for yourself, are you?

Not faults...choices. You are capable...not a thing wrong with you...you gaslighting yourself hurts...can be seen...your lines are all tangled up and that urges you to base your words and actions on possible response again...right back into the trap again you have broken free from more than once.

Break free again.

If you meant you don't communicate because your choice to see her keeping you at arm's length gets you really reactive, I understand. Stop thinking that. "She's not touching me right now." That's fact. The rest is your stab at your self.

You can focus on her staying present to hear you--won't happen if you don't speak. You can permit yourself to own your experience, "I experience you as purposefully disconnecting from me and shutting me out in this conversation right now, is that what you're doing?"

You state your appreciation and I believe you feel appreciative.

You can sound brash, rejecting, offended and angry. What has that to do with appreciation? You can feel all those things and it doesn't mean I'm sharing to make you feel any of those things or to obtain your appreciation. Clarity is HARD for me. This is great practice.

Have you seen on YouTube "The Last Lecture" by Randy Paush? I saw a thread about his passing last Friday and last night, a story about him on 20/20. Want to make a deal and watch it? Could make it a family thing together? I'm going to ask my DH to watch it with me tomorrow night.

I believe you don't want to appear brash, resistant, discounting or dismissive. I didn't want to appear so all the years I was actually provocative, resistant, discounting and dismissive of my DH, reality, The Marriage and myself, either.

Get your own signals, Dino. You're worth it. Only you can get yours...and I can share what they meant to me...my feelings of rejection mostly came from me rejecting my situation and myself, through DJs and not being present.

About the Plan B steps as a way back...keep in mind the overdoing/underdoing...for when a WS chooses to earn their F, if there are no steps back to the marriage, there is no redemption either. What you require in order for you to commit to recovery is equally important to the WS for their personal recovery (which you have no influence over).

Which is why you clear up your lines and do not offer to financially or emotionally support a WS in their A. Not by shelter, food, clothes, vehicles or cash. Don't do it. Don't sabotage her, 'k?

LA

LA, after I read your posts, I feel like an a$$ sometimes because your response makes me realize how much over-reacting I do. Or over analyzing. I have to apologize to you because i may have misled you with my whining and may have caused yu to believe I am suffering a terrible fate here when in truth, I can be thankful for how things are right now. I hope I'm not throwing you for a loop. It's just that when I get in that frame of mind, the "everything is terrible, black or white" type of mindset, I do feel terrible and I vent here and stomp around and tell you guys how horrible my life is. Then you guys post to me and give me your guidance and help and when I read what you have to say, I realize that things aren't as bad as I made them out to be. I feel like a heel for getting you guys all spun up. Don't get me wrong, I do feel terrible everyday, but not because of things she does, or specific things. I'm upset because of the whole thing, how our life is upsidedown right now. My wife is doing what she can, she is lost. I'm not over-doing anything I don't think, i may overreact to things, my patience fails me sometimes and I want things to be good NOW, but our house is not a war zone. That may have been a selfish comment. Our load in our house has always been fairly equal for the last few years. Obviously early in our marriage I was the same as most young husbands, but I got my act together. I think I'm doing more right now because of her work schedule, and I don't mid in the least nor does it cause any heartburn for me, I'd do it anyway. Nothing much different from before her deployment other than me not DJ, LB or AOing her. I don't know what I mean about pressure. I just want her to feel safe around me, I guess thats what I mean. I want her to feel like she is free to make a decision about us for herself. Not because of other reasons, like kids, or whatever. I know I don't control what she feels, but I do control me and my actions. That's pretty much it in a nutshell. I can't make her do anything, and I didn't want to leave my kids. I'm still not ready for Plan B anyway. I am planning to tell some family members but I'm not asking her to move out. I just don't want to do it before the wedding, our family is close, they will worry about us and I don't want to take anything away from the celebration. It has nothing to do with power. Do you mean to tell me it should be ok to tell everyone in our family that we are on the verge of divorce, that her and I did terrible things and lied to everyone right before a wedding for my brother-in-law when the whole family is getting together for the first time in years? It's ok for everyone to feel for our situation instead of focusing on the happiness and joy of the new couple? I shouldn't take that into account and wait for a better time? I don't get that at all. Sorry LA, I may use words in the wrong context sometimes. My wife doesn't do anything, therfore she doesn't attack our marriage, that I know of. When I said attack, I was being childish because I feel she attacks me by not showing me affection, stupid right? I couldn't afford to buy the house on my own, the only way were going to buy is if she is a co-borrower with me. If she isn't committed to being a partner with me on this, I won't have a choice but to wait. We've talked about it, I asked her if seh was willing to take this chance, she seems to be, so I have to take that as a positive sign. I don't think I'm ready for plan B yet. We're still feeling things out LA. I'm very reactive and I have to stop it. Your advice resonates with me so much. Like I said, when I read your posts, it makes me realize how bad it really ISN'T. I guess getting that is a good thing in itself. I wish I could send you some "big brother" style tapes of what happens around our house on a daily basis. You probably want to slap me LA, ask me what I'm whining about, telling me to be patient and take it slow. I've always been like that, if I want something, I want it now, no waiting, or I'll want something else if I can't get it. I have to be careful.

I just want more, faster. I don't know the future for us, if I think about it I get riled up, if I look at what happens day to day, it seems better. I wish the day to day things were better but right now they are not, I can accept that.

she's still here
we're planning together
we're going to buy a house
we're getting along
my kids still have their parents together

Thanks enough to be thankful for right now...

Thanks again LA

You're apologizing for supposedly misleading me, is that correct?

I relate from very much to your over-reaction/analyzation...I would use hyperbole as a louder, more visible-shocking signal when I wasn't paying attention to my more subtle signals. For me, it was like throwing a tantrum to get my own attention.

I believe whining is for manipulation with the intent to inform. Again, we want to ramp it up for resolution...get our pain stopped. And we can't get our own attention to change our CHOICE of perspective, our perception...until we do.

You are in a rough patch of life. No doubt. When you look to your gratitude, that's you choosing a different perspective...and experiencing thankfulness...which includes YOU.

Feeling like an a$$--does that mean you feel like others are sitting on you? Or are we back to the fool feeling again...because we go in and out of our healthy perspectives...we do spiral and we do stop our spirals. All practice. All necessary. You may definitely feel like an a$$ if you're choosing to see yourself as the cause of other poster's reactions, their stuff, their feelings...stealing their time.

You're just not that powerful.

Great signal, though, huh, if that's why you temporarily feel like a patootie.

Those who post to you RELATE to you...because we've been there, done-felt-experienced just what you described...and share what we learned. You were suffering. And now you're not. Nothing has changed except your choice of thoughts, expectations, perspective...your perception of your present, is that correct?


Things are as you experience them...you are the cause, control and cure for your own experience. I hear you saying you want to present a more balanced picture...believe you haven't over the last couple of weeks. Would you consider you are striving within yourself for balance?


This is a lie. Is she telling you this lie and so you are choosing to believe the lie and pass it on to us, or is this your lie to you tell yourself?

Do you want to know why you get so spun up in your pain you make yourself suffer? Do you want to see your own self-manipulation as much as you want to see how you manipulate others?

To know not to judge?

What is wrong with your I-statments?

"I don't want to be in this situation right now, and I am."
"I want things to be resolved right now, right away."
"I want to experience affection, love, recommitment and partnership with my wife again."
"I feel pain, frustration, rejection, helplessness right now."

No hyperbole or suffering. No a$$ in evidence. Sharing information you glean from yourself, about yourself, so you can see your stuff, know your stuff and trace it.

See, that's an act of self-love, taking responsibility for what is solely your responsibility.

Gotta tell you, I sure needed MBers to point out my lies to self and my WH when I heard or told them. Self-deception is tough to discern in ourselves for obvious reasons.


I didn't ask it to get you to judge yourself selfish. I asked for the reality so you understand where your belief comes from. Could it be your original perspective that you're making life comfortable for her, meeting her ENs and eliminating the LBs; keeping at meeting those DS, FC ENs...even though she doesn't deserve it right now? Hasn't for 18 months? Because while you did it all when she was deployed, she was having an A (a casualty of war, you said); and since her return, has continued contact, no matter what consequences have come, and not recommitted to the marriage...and still, you are acting from your choice to love, anyway.

Significant, not selfish. She's still acting from love, too, btw...she's doing her stuff, which does meet some of your ENs, too...and the loudest screaming one is the one not met. We get that. And I want you to thank and be grateful for your choice to act from love not based on possible response right now.

You're teaching yourself how humans REALLY love...not how you were taught. You're breaking really old stuff...so you're going to fear and rile up and feel deep anger and rejection...you're rejecting your old ways of loving (giving to get, earning security and love, and deserved punishment).

Think about it...the old you would be yelling "This isn't fair!" and the new you, the one you're choosing to be right now, says, "Hey, it's my choice to love...not in her control. I want my marriage. I want to recover. These are my choices, not hers, not based on her response." Heck, if they were, I think you would have moved out three months ago, wouldn't you have?

"I want her to feel safe around me and I'm only half of that reality." You keep your eye on your LBs, your own boundaries (around you) and you will be doing your half. Doesn't mean she'll feel safe...trace your desire to see if your perception of her not feeling safe is left over from pre-A you or not. For pete's sake (this is me acting out) she was in a real warzone while having her A...how unsafe are you, really?

Don't give yourself more power or less than you have, 'k?

Her own guilt, shame, justifications, resentment and entitlement can be used to see you as unsafe when you are safe; remember she can do to her and point at you. Not in your control.

She has been free, is and always will be free to make her own decisions. You are not that powerful. You do NOT have the power to pressure, to influence her beyond what she allows...she controls her door of influence...by whom and how much. So do you. Human design.

You may wish to have more influence, fear MAKING her feel anything...because you want to cause so you can cure. Get to know your own thoughts and wishes...they are yours---truly about you, signals, waiting for you to notice, receive, trace and understand. Do it for The Marriage, 'k?

I will say this again...if you believe judging yourself or her will bring you clarity, resolution, righteousness in the place of connection...protect you in some way...then you are lying to yourself. Judgment has the majority of our false payoffs built in...it is fantasy. We can only judge actions...see where you judged her lost, you an a$$, your posts/stuff as over-reactive...when you drop your tool of judgment and reach for discernment, you stop living in fantasy...which is part of the downward spiral spin. We make ourselves dizzy with it.

When we feel pressured and want to feel safe, we reach for judgment...which includes comparison, prediction, the past and the future...fantasy. Would you consider we can compare like objects and not people?

I believe much of what you're saying you want for your WW you mean for yourself, signalling you that you are pressuring yourself and feeling pressured, have a great desire to feel safe, and want to judge yourself safe, prove it, and the same for safe.

I'm glad your patience fails you sometimes...I'm hoping it's the unhealthy part of it breaking your self-deceptive grip.

It's okay for your WW to choose to recommit to The Marriage, go NC and end her A, for the sake of the kids right now. Because they are the last shred of reality she can grasp. You know that after NC is really in place, she'll finally go through withdrawal and then begin to see more reality---breaking the fog means breaking her previous justifications...and then you become real again...not a justification generator for her. Then she can see the man who was the lighthouse, who stood for The Marriage when she was bombing it with both hands.

Then you're real...and The Marriage becomes real...and recovery begins. Don't DJ her stuff--see her real choices...if she chooses the marriage or if she doesn't, 'k?

About her not moving out when you asked her to leave awhile ago...I'm going to question you on that so you can see wider options today (can't change one thing in the past), 'k? Per Harley, you were doing a great Plan A for three, four months, five months, before you felt yourself losing your final remnants of love in the face of her continued contact, is that correct? Reasonable enough time of Plan A to go to Plan B...ready or not.

So in asking her to do the decent thing and move out, whichever she could, and to use an intermediary to contact you through in regards to the kids...I know you're in England, different rules...you could have filed for a restraining order from the military or the local court to get her to move out...because she was in direct violation of THEIR NC rule and you knew she was. You chose not to do this because you didn't feel ready for Plan B and did not want to risk your WW going to prison (how would that help the marriage, you said). I push on this for two reasons...

When you keep reaching, wanting power you don't have it's usually because you're giving your real power away somewhere...in choosing to not see reality, in this case.

You chose not to act (still a choice) based on fear...based on your feelings instead of your beliefs. She had an A based on her feelings, not her beliefs. How's that working for y'all?

I'm still seeing it...you both buying into deception...and I'm yelling at you, Dino, because you're the one NOT on the drug, the only hero in sight. Do not deceive yourself. Your job is to see, hold and bring reality...even if you've used fantasy coping skills for all your life...I want you to do this, anyway.

Plan B is part of Plan Recovery...a necessary one. An essential one for BS's who are as self-deceptive as their WS. You do the Plans because you no longer want to live life backwards from your feelings...you believe if you allow your bank to be robbed daily by your WS, then it's up to you to protect your bank.

Not reacting to your feelings (hope you see the difference because in this regard, it's tough), acting from your beliefs. You believe you and your wife can recover from her A and from yours, heal fully and fall in love with each other from following Harley's rules of care, honesty, time and protection, correct? And that's you acting from your belief by staying, not leaving, not react to your feelings of hopelessness, despair or rejection.

How 'bout that?

So when you chose not to do, you were reacting to your feelings, not your beliefs. That's how we get in the way of the very consequences which may have saved our marriage...how we BLOCK reality instead of bringing it.

And then we rewrite our short history and say we couldn't...wasn't an option...which is what our brain hears and believes...so it doesn't present Plan B as an option.

Plan B saves marriages. Plans only work when you work them.

Your personal recovery is paramount. Which is why I post and repeat, remind--not because you're not acting like I want you to, nor making the choices I want you to...because I'm bringing you reality to the best of my ability...when you see your choices as they truly are, you see reality.

I'm standing for your marriage and your personal recovery. One is all yours...the others everyone on your thread is standing for, too. You're not alone.

Would you consider no one is ready for infidelity? You aren't ready for Plan A, for exposure, for this heartbreaking experience...and it comes, anyway...we don't get a choice...WS made the choice...our choices are in how we respond, if we recover personally, and half of our marital recovery. We aren't ready, really, for Plan B. It's a choice we make from our beliefs. We feel terrified even while we prepare for doing it, anyway.

All others who love you to worry--there's reason to. Your marriage is smashed to bits by infidelity. Excluding them from reality won't change those bits to unsmashed. Excluding them from knowledge means you want to be not told of their stuff, either...like when they get hit with cancer, car wrecks...when someon embezzles or cheats on their partner...which is all actually the opposite of the "close" family you say you have.

You want to control their reactions, change their feelings and thoughts...their stuff. That's what I hear. And you don't want to ask your WW to move out without the kids so you can protect the remaining love you have for her. Because every single day she is actively choosing the A and not her marriage. That's reality. She is not lost. She's making a choice...see her choice as it is...don't buy into her fog anymore.

It's okay for you to choose not to Plan B, limitedly expose, wait until after the wedding or after your divorce...or moving to the US...where you say you are separating, anyway (that's my perception). This is your life, your choices and power. My prayer is for you to choose from clarity, solid clarity (I know that's silly)...to change your life patterns and be free, so you can heal, no matter what she chooses...you choose to recover.

The better time to have told your family was in January when you found out. The better time was in June when you knew what the military decided as her consequences. The better time was always before and there were reasons you chose not to--I understand not stealing focus, thunder, etc...very understandable way to think...because of your previous decisions to not share, not expose, not include...this is now...and it feels like you're backed into a corner and it's one of your own choosing.

I want you to see clearly how you got yourself there, how it's one choice at a time, not one big choice at a time. Do you think maybe you fear them looking at you with disapproval for your choices, your timing if you did--and if you wait until awhile afterward, then they will view you more kindly, as a better person, for having waited eight, nine, ten months...never? An act of kindness?

I'm working this through with you...if you want to experience Openness and Honesty, connection, approval, acceptance...you gotta practice them. Period. No one can make you experience any of those, no matter what they do or when, until you do them yourself. Until you live from them, you won't live in them.


I'm hearing that you are positive, have proof that she is no longer in contact with OM in anyway, so she has chosen to truly end her A, is that correct? I'm the one who believes she attacks your real union every moment she's "lost" in fantasy...does harm...to you, the marriage and your family. Every moment she DOESN'T recommit to your marriage because that's the only right thing to do, her only way of amends and redemption...she attacks your union. You weren't being childish.

Every day she has not recommitted is an attack. She's choosing to attack...please see this clearly. She is teaching your children to react to their feelings, choose their life from temporary signals...the exact opposite of what you've taught them.

They don't get to beat Timmy senseless because Timmy hurt their feelings. They don't get to shoplift because they needed it and it was there. They don't get to hit you, their father, over the head with a frying pan because you said they couldn't stay out until 4am on a Thursday night. All are reactions to their feelings...so it's okay for Mommy to not choose the union she vowed to because she doesn't feel like it right now.

Unhealthy, harmful and destructive. I call that an attack.

We have to act bigger than we believe we are today; stronger, braver and truer...with our focus on our choices...to save our marriages and live from our beliefs. You've done that time and time again...and when you choose not to...you're choosing, too.

And you spiral, react, over-analyze (which is great if you're looking at you, and a downward spiral when your focus is on HER)...as signals. You chose not to act from your beliefs.

I don't know why you're talking about buying a house together before a recommitment. Would it be great, her being your co-borrower, getting that house...and her moving in her next OM? Huh? Wouldn't that be peachy? See, then you WOULD move out in NM, and she'd get the house to herself with you having to pay off...afterall, it's yours, too...right? Only they get the whole house, the kids and you're a visitor in your own dreams.

Don't do anything before she recommits to the marriage through NC for life, transparency and counseling. Make it a post-nuptial contract...and then, if you want to buy a house together (and you distinctly said you could afford one on your own...what's with the lying?), there's a clause that says either one of you will only be entitled to 1/4 of all family assets if either of you participate in infidelity in anyway (putting any third party into your marriage).

When you leave the door open to contact your AP "if things don't work out in your marriage" or "if BH really ticks me off" or "If I can't get OM out of my head...hence, must be real"...then you are attacking your marriage, are you not? The Marriage is real...a real union...affairs are fantasy.

Coming out of the fog. "I feel lost and confused. I know I'm choosing by not choosing our marriage."

"You're calling the shots--I'm going along to keep peace and be nice. I'm afraid you'll leave me behind because I'm worthless. I'm also afraid to recommit and do you more harm. I don't know what the right thing to do is." Fog statements.

Don't divine signs from her...get your own signals, to you, about you, from you. Know right now what is reality and what isn't...okay not to know her signs...she may change her mind 15 times on the house and back again. We don't know and cannot know...her word is no longer true, or honorable or real right now. She's lost, remember?


This is the very reason I post to you, Dino. That was me. I wanted what I wanted, when I wanted it and in the way I wanted...and to manipulate, connivive, distract to cope, and self-deceive to sustain. I get that. Let me ask you what I asked myself...

is that really who you are?

Was it ever? Or was it the only way you felt visible, significant, deserving, whole, real?

When you are in the present moment, every thing seems better.

That's true for every single human on the planet at any time. It's in our design. Not your flaw/fault you go where you have no control...the future/the past...your choice.

Thank you so much for pursuing, communicating, continuing, and sharing. It all matters...we all do. Every day.

LA

Hi Dino!

Just wanted to check in and see how your weekend was. Hope you are doing well and feeling good. I am breaking my diet right now with a little ice cream ... hee, hee! Don't worry, I ate a small dinner and I am going to burn it off walking the dog

What happened in Hawaii at the reunion?

What's now and how are you?

LA

Dino, how are things going? We're worried about you.

How are things going?