Hello,

I am a FOW. I behaved shamefully and selfishly and there is no excuse whatsoever for my actions. I am willing to take whatever 2x4s you dish out and I hope it isn't disrepectful to post this here but I have a question and I really want to do the right thing.

I had an affair with a married man starting in 1996, his wife found out, divorced him and we married in 1999. She has also remarried. We each had two children. My two lived with us and one of his eventually came to live with us as well. His former wife has hated me with a vengeance and done everything imaginable to try to keep us apart and her children away from me. Even to this day.

I thought during the early years she was crazy but now know that she was doing everything she should have done.

With that background in mind, here is my question... I am now a totally different person than I was at that time. I have a relationship with Jesus and could not possibly regret more having an affair. I have been dealt with spiritually on this matter and I know that I am forgiven by God but I have been a changed person for years now and I still have this nagging feeling that I should apologize to the wife. Is that the right thing to do?

I know that there are no words I could ever say and nothing I could ever do to erase the pain I caused. I do not really expect her to forgive me. I just feel like I owe her an apology because I wronged her greatly and have never acknowledged that to her. She was right. I was wrong. Period.

Would any one of you here want an apology? Would it upset you more to have it brought up and feel it disrespectful or would you have any peace knowing that your pain was acknowledged and that the person who caused it owned it?

I want to do what is right for her, not for me, and I don't know what that is now. I do not want to do this to ease my conscience, if it is going to make her feel worse I will not do anything! Just hoping that some one here who could see from her view point could tell me what you would like to have, if anything, from the OW after all these years.

Thanks for your time and consideration.
NewCreation

Nope.

Leave the woman alone.

I got an apology from the xOW. It did help a tiny bit because I have her child from her A with my H in my life. If she were not even remotely in my life, then NO I would not want to hear from her. You as the stepmother to her children (in my opinion) do owe her an apology but don't expect her to accept it.

So, if this is sincere and without expectations then I say yes.

Well considering that in all affair cases here there is NC EVER allowed I would have to say no .. If you didnt appologize then, you would only be triggering her and her hubby of the affair and causing more harm and a rehash of the events that took place when the affair started. You have your faith in Jesus .. and his forgiveness is really all that matters. I personally think you hsould leave it alone and let it be. But thats just me. Having not knowing of MB I would have most likely said YEs .. an appology would be nice but why bring up the past. Whats done is done.

No .. do not break NC. JMHO.

*shrugs*

MrNiceGuy.....there is no no-contact.
She is still married to the man she conspired to homewreck with.

Well I am married to her ex husband now so I don't think it is breaking NC unless she is to have NC with us? Is that how it is best?

Probably what is best is to divorce her ex husband and then apologize for getting involved with him and telling her she is free to try to mend her marriage to him.



Then, let her decide if she wants to give him a chance.

Meanwhile, you move far away and never have any contact with either of them ever again in this lifetime. You find an unattached fella and make a life with him way out yonder.

lol

Good Point Reading ... Then Yes .. maybe send her a letter. Since you are married to her ex ... This is a really tough one. I think you should pray about it and see what god puts in your heart. Ask him for direction and most likely (if not already) your heart will press one way or the other.

And for those of you who think I do owe an apology what would be the best way to offer it? A letter, a phone call, drive to her town and ask if she will have coffee with me? Any advice on what I could or should say? I don't want to rehash stuff, although I would honestly answer any question she wanted to ask. Somehow just "I am sorry" sounds lame considering what I did.

And no I do not expect her to accept it or for me to get anything out of it outside of doing the right thing.

How long has it been since you spoke directly to her?
What was said?

Reading, I actually did leave and almost divorce my husband because of my grief and guilt and shame. It took a lot of counseling with our pastor and his wife and also a professional Christian counselor to get me where I am today. The wife has also already remarried herself and is a Christian. She felt (rightly) relieved of her marraige vows to my now husband due to the adultery and I wouldn't think would feel divorcing her new husband without biblical cause would be okay.

BTW if anyone thinks it might be helpful or a wake up call to any of the Wayward spouses out there I would be willing to type a post of exactly what kind of heartache and consequences you and your "soul mate" will face if you continue and marry eachother. The fall out is not pretty, NOT happily ever after, and if you do grow as a person the guilt and shame are nearly unbearable.

Gack the last I spoke to her was about 7 years ago when her younger child came to live with us. I scanned and emailed her a school picture and her first report card at the new school and she did not appreciate hearing from me and we ended up having a horrible argument via email. I still did not realize the depth of my error at the time, thought I was being a big person sending her that stuff because husband and daughter would not themselves so when she let in to me I let her have it back. Very self-righteous and ugly. It is not one of my proud days for sure.

If you are truly sorry for what you did - which was have an affair with a married man, help destroy his family and then keep him for yourself - if you are sorry in the sense of "I wish I'd never done that," then you will divorce this man and get out of his life. He will be free to go back to his family and you will have done something to pay for the damage you have done.

If you do that, then you can send the Betrayed Wife a letter of apology.

But if you intend to keep your ill-gotten gains and only want to send the Betrayed Wife a letter that says, "Sorry you were hurt by this", then don't even think about it. The BW will only take this as you taking your Big Win and rubbing it in her face. Because you would be.

And yes, I am entirely serious about this.

ITA with faithy. Try it but do not expect a THING from her in return.

Your apology will not bring her family back together and it will not erase her pain. It MAY help her to realize you have changed, if you truly have.

Do NOT expect anything in return.

Then no.

And if you truly, truly, want to show you are sorry...
Do what Mulan says.
Otherwise suck it up and deal with the guilt.

Though she remarried another man.....leave her alone.

Continue trying to be a better person yourself and just leave her alone.

Mulan is that because you think she would actually want a chance back with him (because she is remarried)or just because we don't deserve to be together for any reason because of the affair? Do you think it will give her satisfaction just simply for us to have not worked out? Its been since 1996. Not trying to be smart at all. I am seriously asking because that was my original thinking when I first came to terms with what I had done a couple of years back. My pastor and my counselor didn't believe God would want two more divorces and that He forgives but I struggled hard on that one.

Mulan ~ the BW is now re-married. She probably wants nothing to do with POSWXH anyhow. If the BW had not re-married, maybe this would be a possibility. I, for one, am praying the BW found a much better husband, one who is and always will be, faithful.

NewCreation ~I would suggest an email. I doubt she wants to see you. You might post it here for feedback before you send it. If it has even ONE iota of self-pity or blame it will go over like a lead balloon.

P.S. and as if wasn't bad enough that you stole her H...you stole her child as well.

Good grief, the heartache that woman has gone through must have been near unbearable.

Why do you have her child?

It's looking like more votes to leave things be than to apologize. I am still open to hearing opinions on this but from what i see so far it appears it would come off as self-serving to contact her now. I do not want to do that.

Do you have children together with your affair partner/now H?

If no then I can't see how divorce would be any worse than what you are doing now ~ basically living in an illigit marriage.

If you do have children with him then I am not sure about the pain those children would go through...you sure made a mess out of things, didn't you?

I guess it really or possibly depends on how it all played out between Newcreations hubbies previous marriage and how the affair started?? Maybe NEw Creations HUbby should be the one to make the apology? If one needs to be sent at all??

I see what Mulan is getting at tho .. It may be considered cruel to bring up that erra of time in her life again. She could be happily married to her new hubby and then you come back into the picture after she thought you and her ex were gone living happily ever after in what was once a fantasy that turned into reality?? Its all really sour tasting tho ..

Like i said ... pray about it NewCreation ... ask god. If you are truely a follower of christ you would first ask what would jesus do? I am sure if you had asked that qustion prior to the affair .. he would have turned over your tables and had a tantrum like he did in the synagog .. however .. you were most likely not a follower then. But since you are now ... I would accept my forgivness in Jesus .. and leave it at that and not disturb their family. I think if you did contact them you would only reignite some strife and casue her hubby to be upset that his wife is in a form of contact with her ex.

Vets .. correct me if I am wrong here ...*shrugs*

Gack her younger child in her early teens didn't like Mom's rules and decided living with Dad would be more fun. They let kids decide for the most part after a certain age. She didn't find it more fun as we had rules too but she did stay. She doens't like me much and it was challenging. One of the many challenges I created for myself!

MarriedForever, yes I did make a big mess of things.

I am not an OW, but I am a FWW...so I definitely did a terrible thing and was in dire need of repentance and God's grace.

You are married. She is now married as well. It has been several years. I would just leave well enough alone. It sounds like you are feeling guilt...which is understandable. But most likely it would open more wounds than it would heal at this point.

Based on your screen name, I assume you have read II Cor. 5:17. So have I. What I did in 2006 was indefensible. I should never have done it. But based on I John 1:9, I have been forgiven and cleansed of all unrighteousness, and based on II Cor. 5:17 I am a new creation. The best way for me to show gratitude for that is to live my life in a way that pleases the One who died for me every single day.

Twan .... well said. If i could figure out how to do the clapping smily .. id post it.

1996 wasn't THAT long ago.

Yes it was ... lol ... in 1996 i was like .. 18 years old. IM 33 now. 1/2 my life since then has already gone by. (almost)

*shrugs*

I think the reason it nags at me whether to apologize is that unlike what Mr.NiceGuy said it wouldn't be bringing up something she had put behind her. It still is and always has been a constant issue. Her kids are grown now but get horribly chastised if they are polite to me in any way and really for getting along with their dad for that matter. It blows up multiple times a year.

It should be directed at me not the kids. I don't know. I have been and will continue to pray about it. I wish there was a way to get the message out that some mistakes are not worth making. You can't go back, you can't fix it, you are not going to be able to make it right ever again. Wish I knew then what I know now and I would gladly suffer the humiliation of being labeled publicly if my story would stop someone else.

Well, this is just in line with what Dr Harley says. BWs who have even recovered their marriages will say 10-15 years later their spouse's affair was the worst thing that has ever happened to them. You actually have done more damage than that scenario because you ended up marrying her H and fightiing with her, etc.

I only say this to show you that this isn't something that an apology could heal in any way. Just your mere presence in her life keeps ripping off the scab of her injury. I would say to leave her alone.

For your own piece of mind to help others you could do such a thing as a warning of some kind of the after effects if you thought that might help. May be a good idea? Possibly even better than appologizing if nothing more than to prevent others from doing it. Post your story and mishaps and hardships of your course of actions. Never know .. it may help others.

Thank you for the kind words Tawandabelle. I certainly didn't come here expecting any but it was comforting.

Since she is still with the WH, I would say this is not a good idea. For me it personally shows a lack of repentence...

Mr.NiceGuy do you mean post here? What forum do think appropriate? I have thought about speaking at church but I will be exposing my husband's past as well and I am certain embarassing my children who don't know how things happened. It's a hard call to make. Embarassing myself is my due but I have torn feelings about my children. Although I have been debating sitting them down and telling them recently. Just another thing on my heart lately.

If you open yourself up to it, God REALLY will deal with you.

SusieQ so if I divorce again, then my mistakes could be my testimony and possibly helpful to others? But if I do not divorce I just need to privately repent? Or you think that I can't be remorseful and stay married at the same time?

Hmm lots to pray about tonight. I appreciate the reponses and I hope my post did not hurt anyone.

You see .. God wants us to reveal the truth. There can be NO healing without truth. If you have not told your children how it went down .. Your lieing by omission to them and how can you have a healthy relationship with them without truth.

Neither of my parents to this day have told me the truth of how they split up .. its all a blurr to me and he did .. she did .. crap. All i seen was the violence and the yelling. It was all very confusing to me. I hear bits of this and that, but the story is so faded now its hard to know what the truth really is or the details i do get .. are distored from one story to another between them both. If either one of them could sit me down and explain their faults and own up to them I would have a TON more respect for them just for being honest with me. We are all human and make mistakes ... and for that i can forgive them as jesus forgives me for my faults and sins. ITs only a sin .. and no matter how big or small the sin is ... a sin is a sin to god and we are forgiven in his name.

I would say if you where to post your story here ... to post it in the divorced area .. or here in SAA. I can not say for sure if it is the right thing to do or not .. but I will say that revelaing the truth to your immediate family should certanly happen. Living with it inside you can only eat away at you and continually create guilt in you until the truth is revealed.

Let it go ... give it to god. Whats done is done. But truth be told for everyone to heal and have understanding.

Being remorseful does not correct the sin (offense). The sin as far as I am concerned continues as long as you are with the WH.

It doesn't make any sense at all to me for you to give your testimony. Maybe someone can help me understand. You would be explaining that you feel badly for the BW? But you are still continuing to be a source of pain in her life by still being married to the WH? Sorry, I don't get it.

NewCreation, you could always set up a blog online. Please don't contact the BW. It will accomplish nothing for her except bring up bad memories.

I think you might be able to post your story here and maybe some WS/FWS will get something out of it. It might also do good for any BS whose WS is planning on marrying the AP. <shrug> Maybe, maybe not.

You may get some lashings but it sounds like you understand that and accept it as part of the consequences of poor choices.

ITA with you susieQ.....and I would say dont apologize...it wont do the woman any good since you are still with the man...I know that if the OW apologized to me right now while she is still with my WH...It would just be hollow words, prolly more to help herself feel better than to help me....

SusieQ I respect your viewpoints and thank you for sharing them with me.

Mr.NiceGuy I was already divorced when I became involved in an affair. My children know why their father and I divorced. And all of the rest of both mine and my husbands family know we had an affair. The only people who didn't were my two children because they were very young and now that they are older, I still haven't told them. You are right though. I need to do that. It is the truth of who I was I will tell them.

MaritalBliss a blog is an idea I had not thought of but SusieQ has me rethinking the value of my experience if I remain married to my husband. I have had a lot of counsel that I have to leave to truly repent and even more counsel that I have been forgiven and divorcing again would be just another sin. See this is why I say I wish people could realize before it is too late the place they are putting themselves in, its all very confusing and painful to everyone. And, there is no way you can rightfully feel sorry for yourself or expect any sympathy so it is very scary and lonely.

I dont think that you should divorce or anything...the exBW is remarried, right? She has moved on... Everyone makes mistakes, your forgivness needs to be between you an God...and I agree you should tell your children and tell them what a bad choice it was and how you realize this now...Apologizing to the exBW would be moot now, IMHO...You are still with her ex...

Stillhere I will not contact the exBW. That point came across pretty strongly in the responses. Thanks for your words on forgiveness. It's hard to figure sometimes with so many conflicting opinions and your own guilt weighing on you. I will tell my children though.

Your "soul mate?" What is that exactly?

Contacting this BW would be like contacting a victim of arson and saying, "Hey, I'm sorry I burned down your house, but you have another house to live in now so it shouldn't matter anymore, right? I mean, it doesn't bother you that I built a new house on your burned-out property, does it?"

Again: This would just be rubbing it in her face that you burned down her house, you forced her out and you kept her property for yourself and there's nothing she can do about it now.

The only time to apologize is when you no longer have what you took from her - like her husband and her child.

Good Luck.

I think she meant to say "stolen mate"....

NewCreation, you, like me, have sinned in a terrible way. The question now is.....do you live honestly and with integrity from this day forward, or do you leave your now H, have your children go through another D, then your now H attempts to break up his exW's now marriage so he can get back with her?

I can understand why that convoluted solution might sound appealing to someone who is very very hurt by adultery....but I don't think it makes much sense.

If the God whose Son was put to death by all our sin has forgiven you because you have repented, I would say live as a new creation now. I would advise telling your children because they WILL find out one day. My kids were 10 and 8, and we told them.

I don't know that I would share a testimony at church in my case because of my kids (even though they know). But I do try to give some bits of my limited wisdom to other people on forums and IRL. I am doing a good bit of writing, and a dream of mine is to write a Bible-based book about the steps a WW should take toward repentance and redemption. If you think about it.....Jesus poured his life into just 12 men, 3 of them very closely. If only a handful of people can learn from my story.....that is something, some sort of impact.

NewCreation,

You ask more than one question, really.

1. "Should you apologize?"
2. "Is it too late to apologize?"
3. "Would a BS want an apology?"
4. "Would an apology make a difference to a BS?"

Among others.

Apologies might serve many purposes, one of which is to alleviate the guilty party's sense of wrong and help them set themselves on what they feel is a new path.

That is truly part of what you need, and part of your motivation. There is no shame in this, and your need to apologize is actually something you should be honored for. It shows that you do have a sense of shame for what you have done, and that you do want to do something to try to repair the damage, at least in whatever small way you might be able to do that.

IMHO, an apology is in order. You say you and the BW are both of the Christian faith. There are ways that within your faith you could do this. One might be for you to send her a letter. In that letter, you should take full responsibility, apologize, and express your remorse.

Another way might be to send the letter, but to also include in it an offer to meet with her in person, with her pastor present, so you can also offer this apology in person so that she can openly express to you whatever she might need to say. In that letter, let her know that you would NOT defend your actions, but you would be prepared to listen to her pain, her devastation, and that you would not offer any justification or explanation for your behavior - but would apologize again and be open to anything she might have to say to give you ideas for making restitution to her in a Christian way.

The second option takes courage.


She likely will not accept.


But you would have offered her something that she would not have expected, and most likely would see as a "real" apology - worth more than the first.


As a betrayed wife, the OW in my case apologized. It was over the telephone. She cried, because she heard my devastation - and only after that did she understand what pain SHE CAUSED to me (I was her former friend). While in the affair, she never gave it a second thought. She was, and is, married. I asked her why she could see MY pain, and not her own husband's pain????

She said "My husband can take it. He's been through it before."


That. Is. Not. Remorse.


I realized she had no idea.......


You do. I can see it in your post.


So yes. Apologize. Take the short route with a letter, or the longer letter with an offer to meet with the pastor and BW.

But yes, apologize. It is one step in your recovery. And one thing that the BW can look at and say, "At LEAST there is that. At LEAST she admitted she was wrong."


It won't fix anything. But there is a sense of some kind of setting things more on track - at least a little bit.

Schoolbus.

Hi there creation,

I think the problem is that you can't change what has happened and saying you are sorry just doesn't cut it when it comes to the pain the XW has felt, when she found out about your affair with her husband to losing him to you to live her life watching you live the life she thought was hers.............It won't make any difference, she can't think about you any other way........you destroyed her life..........
I am so glad you have come to a place in your life where you have matured and now understand what you have done.........I am glad you at least can see your error in judgement.........It's always the innocent that are hurt the worst........all you can do is honor her when the situations periodically happens where she shows anger..........she is entitled and just something that you are going to try to help fix for her family, what she has left.........you owe her for however long and whatever it takes with her children...........
I would leave the woman alone and just try to help where I could, I would tell my children when the time is right so they understand the real reasons, they will forgive you as well.......keep praying for everyone involved and say a special pray everyday for the XW, that's all you can do......don't hurt her again........

Here is my ....

Opinion:

Write an apology letter.
Put it in a "God box" .... and leave it there.

You cannot fix this.
Leave it to God.

NewCreation2011, you may be a born again Christian but to my way of thinking you are still an egotistical narcissist! You want to apologize for yourself, not for the other woman. You have learned NOTHING!!

I think your best bet is letting your family and children know the real version how you met their father.

Don't bother the BW help your children to affair proof their marriages.

We are commanded in scripture to ask for forgiveness for those we have offended, id at least go that far...

Can't help but comment. In fourteen years if OM shows up at my door, god help him.

As a BS I would never want an apology from you, TOO LATE!! the damage is done. Live your life and leave her alone. You made your mistakes, live with them. Enjoy your marriage.

As a BS who is currently in Plan B and dealing with an ACTIVE affair where my WH lives with OW, I am in too much of my own pain to answer you without my own prejudices. I do not know what the BW in your case would say to such an apology. The emotional side of me says, "NO WAY." The other side is torn. It really IS up to you.

Now, I have a question for you, why did you come HERE? What made you pick THIS site at THIS time to ask THIS question? It's more about curiosity than anything else.

I tend to go with what school bus said, and with the apology. Here are my reasons.

You can tell your kids someday, now whenever, how and why there is trouble between you and OW, and why it will allways be there. That they need to think before they act, and how you and your husband did not, and how devestating and selfish it was.

Going to a someone you have wronged and apologizing is part of spiritual restoration, it restores them. I am not fooled that you are doing this for any other reason than to appease your conscience, you are, but you are not gonna get forgiveness from BW, but from Christ. As long as you know this, and don't expect her to forgive you, you may help her see that the hens have come home to roost, and you are suffering. God help you if you expect this woman to forgive you, and God help her if she does. Get it over quickly, and have a pastor present. Then let it go forever.

Finnally, in my experience, when the OM called me one day and said he was sorry, after he had bought all the tripe my WW had fed him. It made me feel better a little. I still wanted to put a bullit in his stupid head for being the idiot he was, and how he helped my wife go deeper into denial and drugs, but it made me feel better to know the truth was revealed, and gave me confidance that God would be served.


Maybe you should get your pastor to talk to hers, and have them make the decision. Since it could be healing, or offending.

My biggest concern is for your children, and how they will deal with thier choices and how it effects thier future. You seem to be willing to take your lumps. You want to avoid them having to suffer the fallout, as you realize how damaging it is.

You can post your story, but I suggest you read here awhile before you do. Understand that most here absolutly hate affairs and/or are currently suffering from the devestating damage they cause. You will see and appreciate this as you read, and even learn as you do, so you can post effectivly.

Melodylane I put "soul mate" in quotation marks because I meant it sarcastically because just like script it is what we thought we were and it is poop.

I have been reading on here for a long, long time and have never posted. I found this site when the realization of what I had done really began to hit me, my marriage began to suffer, and I did not know what to do. God used the stories on this board to convict me and grow me in many ways.

I know a lot of how bad what I did was because of some of the stories here. I also know because surprise surprise my now husband cheated on me too. I know serves me right. Throw the darts. I know that even though I wanted to have a support place like this for my struggle I knew I had no right to it and wouldn't have dared to ask.

I have tried very hard not to look like I am defending myself in any way here because there is no defense but I am going to say for those who will automatically assume that I came here and felt sorry for what I did only after I got cheated on too that is not the case. I lived in a separate bedroom for nearly a year, going to counseling, and praying and reading and trying to figure out whether the biblical thing to do to correct my sin was to divorce or not. All this took place before I was cheated on too. And no I didn't really use any of the tools here in my case because I was hit so hard with feeling like I was getting what I deserved and feeling doubly miserable having to realize the depth of the pain I caused someone else. And no, I do not expect one soul here to feel a bit of sympathy for me! Seriously I do not.

I chose this place to ask this question now because I think the answers here are the right ones and the viewpoints here on marriage are the Godly ones. I wanted good and truthful answers. Not a sugar coated one and I knew no one here would care about my feelings at all but solely those of the BW and that is what I needed to know to try to make a decision about the apology. Scotland I hope that answers your questions.

I am going to think on the suggestion about going through the pastors. Unfortunately the answers here go back and forth just like I do in my thinking about to apologize or not apologize.

NewCreation,

I am a former bw, whose XH immediately married the pregnant ow with whom he had an affair.

He told me he was in love with her, that she was his "soul mate" and that she'd be the mother of their child and OUR child (my dear son). He conspired along with her to try to get more custody in the divorce process btw.

I ended up forgiving her, because I am a Christian, but sadly IF YOU DO NOT TRULY REPENT, you will not ever be truly changed.

My xh and the ow/wife ARE NOW DIVORCING after being married literally the next day after our divorce was final in Jan. of 2004.

More cheating. Both professed Christians. She is not yet legally divorced, but began dating (cheating) again 6 months ago. During their time as "soul mates", they stole precious time away from my time with my son, and that is how I see it now.

I finally have sole custody, after them having three days of the week with my son for about five years. The last two having my son ALL THE TIME with me is what I deserved long ago.

YOU conspired WITH her husband to BETRAY AND HARM HER (the betrayed wife). Yes you did. 100 percent. I have personally forgiven due to my faith, the xow, but will NEVER FORGET what she and my xh did to me.

And yes, it was the MOST PAINFUL thing I have ever gone through. Having your baby ripped from your arms, going to stay in the home of my former husband and the woman who destroyed my family, even if it were only for a few days a week here and there. YOU have STOLEN time away from HER CHILDREN and ripped apart her family.

Yes, I was freed by God from the chains of my marriage from my xh. My faith and the Bible tells me that, since he was and is 100 PERCENT UNREPENTANT, as YOU are and as YOUR HUSBAND is, as long as you both are married. You and also ripping apart the children from the original family unit and from their mother.

What's kinda funny, is that after my second year divorced, my xh realized the HUGE mistake he'd made by marrying the pregnant ow, and actually asked ME OUT. I turned him down as I don't date married men. When you're in an AFFAIRAGE (marriage as the result from a sleazy affair), how can you ever truly trust your "soul mate"? Seriously. If they'll do it with you, they'll do it to you.

He began cheating on her shortly after that, and she began cheating on him this summer. They have a child together, and my poor son hasn't seen his half sister since before Christmas, since the xow has moved on with her "new life" now. Funny now, but her having a relationship with her daughter and my son (and to think this woman wanted to be "like my son's mom too" was what I was told) she has not tried to ever see my son at all. She has dropped my son like a hot potato since she is moving on to another guy...and another. Like she really wanted to be "the mother" of my son like she said to my xh when she was trying to reel in a marrid man.

So I'm happy to tell the truth. No darts here, just simple, plain facts and the truth. I could even be the betrayed wife of your ex, you don't know.

My pastor told me I was freed and given the GO AHEAD BY GOD to remarry, due to the fact my xh was a reprobate (one who does not repent of their sin) and how he had cast me aside (what your husband DID TO HIS WIFE).

I remarried last year to an amazing man. Happier than ever. We are in love and he treats me 100 percent better and our lives are amazing. He is now the dad my son SHOULD have had all along. I have nothing to hide. Our friends and family all FULLY EMBRACED our marriage, because of the fact we didn't lie, cheat, or steal to be together. Our love story is REAL and it is the kind of healing and future I wish for all betrayed spouses who endure what I had to go through.

While I am happier now than I have ever been in my life, I will NEVER forget what my xh and his ow did to me. NEVER. It was more painful than you could imagine. I put it right up there to the pain I felt when my father died, when my grandparents died, and sometimes, during quiet, random, moments, some of those horrible memories will replay in your mind. yes, I would suppose that also happens to your wayward husband's betrayed ex wife.

You have in a way, sentenced her to a life of that replay of horrible pain and memories. While she may have forgiven you with faith and with God's help, it will still NEVER remove those memories and she will endure those replays for life.

Isn't your marriage romantic now? Isn't living a life with its' foundations built on lies and deceit the way to go? Unless you take a real hard look within, lose that damn ego, you will mostl ikely face what my xh and his soon to be ex other woman wife will too.

Honey, you will NEVER know how bad you hurt another living human being. Never ever know. Maybe when you face God at the end of your life, you will be granted that wisdom, but I truly hope that nobody has to experience the pain of what my child and I endured at the hand of a woman who COVETED MY LIFE AND HUSBAND AND CHILD, wanted to simply cut me out of the picture and paste herself into my life, and that is something that will never fade in time. And also experience the pain of betrayal from one that promised to love and honor you ALL the days of your life as your husband.

Isn't your marriage romantic now? Isn't living a life with its' foundations built on lies and deceit the way to go? Unless you take a real hard look within, lose that damn ego, you will mostl ikely face what my xh and his soon to be ex other woman wife will too.

No, my marriage is not romantic. No, the lies and deceit are a miserable foundation. I already stated he cheated on me too. I did not think I was exhibiting an ego now, I would NEVER repeat the behavior of my past and would give anything if I could undo it. I am sorry my posting upset you.

Unfortunatly, but realistically, this is going to upset some people here. That is why I suggest you bring this question to a pastor.

I imagine you know the statistics on affiarage marriges, and have thrown yourself on Gods grace and forgivness as a source for a new life, and to stop the cycle you set in motion when you had the affair at 18.

Praying for ya.

My opinion. Skip the apology letter. I think you really want it for you and not your husband's former wife. After all, you could slip in there somewhere that you understand her feelings since he cheated on you as well. The former wife has made it clear that she does not want to hear from you. Yet, you persist in wanting to apologize.

If you really want to do something potentially postive, post your experience and story on the website for other women. Address other people who are currently in affairs. It just MIGHT touch someone. One the other hand, it could be like convincing a fun-loving drunk that drinking is not a good idea.


AM

New Creation, I'm a BW but I'm not going to beat you up. I've read your thread and have thought hard about everything you've said.

Unlike some posters here, I'm not going to accuse you of being driven by ego, because while I'm sure there's a degree of that (like many humans) I also see a lot of remorse here. You have had to learn in the hardest way why it is such a terrible idea to insert yourself into someone's marriage. No one wins in an affair. It's a lose/lose. I don't think I would wish your place on my worst enemy. Many OPs never 'get' the devastation that is left in the wake of an A.

I don't know. Originally I would have come within an inch of killing the OW in my sitch. I would have flat-out killed her, but I would have been taken away from my children, AND if I killed her she wouldn't have felt any more pain. How's THAT for vindictive?

But I want to hope that time has dealt with her. Your post tells me that may be true. I hope so.

So in a weird way it's good to hear this. It confirms that there is a karma bus out there, and it's fully gassed up.

If OW came to me today to ask for forgiveness, I would not give it to her. Maybe I should. Maybe I need to work on that 'flaw' within me. But not today.

But I DO know I would tell her to go, and sin no more. That is what I'm telling you.

There is another poster on this site that I think the world of. I believe she has already posted to you. She is a former wayward. Her perspective has been valuable here and to me, personally. I would never consider beating her up. She's too valuable, as a person and as a poster.

You can't un-ring this bell and make the devastation un-happen, and you know that. But you CAN work every day to do good for someone else. You can be transparent to everyone around you and teach them about the dangers of infidelity from your own unique perspective. That's really about it.

I wish you good luck. And that's just me, two years out from D-Day.

Good morning NewCreation2011,

I can hear the hurt in your words, I think you now realize what damage you have caused because you are now in the same place as the rest of us BS's.
Look life is a long time to not make any mistakes, we all have our lists. I wish we could turn the hands of time back and just erase all the bad things in our lives.
All any of us can do at this point is try to learn from our mistakes and conduct ourselves in a better way............My husband cheated on me and it has changed who I am inside, I don't like it........but what I try to do is just live my life the right way, I always think of every decision and make sure that I do not hurt anyone else in the process, my needs don't come first when it comes to the ones I love.....................I will leave this world knowing I have done what I could, I know I can't control anyone else or make sense of anyone else's decisions.
We are all accountable to a higher power and when we meet our maker we will have to accept our outcome at that point................everyone deserves to be forgiven, but that doesn't mean we will forget what has happened in our lives. Every day try to just to live your life right, and know that this is your only job on this earth, live by God's word and have the faith in that.
I'm sorry you have hurt as well, no one deserves that pain.
(hugs)..........bs.........jessi

Just so you will know I am the FWW.

This may be harsh but...you can not apologize for something you are STILL involved in! Which you obviously don't get.

Let's say you stole a million dollars from her...for years you spend and spend her money. Finally, one day you think, "Hmmm, maybe I should apologize for stealing her money because I feel so bad about that." Now mind you, you are going to keep spending that money you stole, but hey, at least you apologized for stealing it, right?

Kinda makes that apology seem a little less sincere, doesn't it?

Divorce her cheating xh and then apologize...only then will it begin to be sincere and not about you.

When you marry a man who cheats on his wife, you get a man who cheats on his wife.

Sounds perfect accually, and probably why God say vengence is His. I have had occasion to ponder this many times before in my life, having lived under the threat of violence. Thank God for my Mom and her faith, and the part my Dad had in being a hardworking aggressive man, teaching me to have guts. I have never been afraid to fight, it was allways what the fight was about, and how to win it effectively.


I like MBs post too, and I believe the most effective way the BW can effect you is to never think of you as having any real power in her life, but then there is the children, so she has no choice.

I am assuming both you and her H are Christians also, and share the shame or pain of this. To be fair to the children, you need to be honest about what affairs do, and the lies that breed them, and feed the seed thoughts that get planted in our minds. Ever read "The battle for the mind" by Tim Lahaye? Now you know the damage humans can wreak upon others, and you are accoutable.

Ephesians 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

With God help you can stop the cycle, and help the children avoid the pain. Seek the Kingdom

I am a BS.

Too new a BS to know how I am going to feel Xnumber of years down the road. But from today's standpoint...

While I think you are sincere in your truly wanting to apologize I don't see how it would help HER (the xW).

If my WH & OW marry I would NOT want an apology from her, EVER. I don't think I will ever feel she is truly remorseful and any atempt at an apology from her would be dismissed as her trying ease a guilty conscience.

What I WOULD like from OW, and this goes whether WH & OW marry or not, is an apology to my CHILDREN. She ripped (THEY ripped, but that goes without saying that WH MUST at some point - hopefully sooner than later - apologize to his children) my childrens' foundation out right under them. Shaky foundation or not, it was THEIR foundation and a shaky foundation is better than NO foundation at all.

How could she (THEY) ever, ever sincerely apologize for the emotional damage that she (THEY) have caused ALL the children involved. Hers & ours?

Abandonment issues, Trust issues, Self esteem issues, Depression, Social interaction issues, Adjustment issues, Financial issues, Economic issues, self-loathing, addictions (not just drugs but a laundry list of addictions), TWO Christmases, TWO birthday, TWO Easters, TWO homes, Two sets of parents, perhaps FOUR sets of grandparents...the friggin' list goes on and on...

Turn on the T.V., read the covers of the magazines at the check-out stand, listen to the radio, watch a movie. We live in a society where divorce is: NO BIG DEAL and sleeping around is: NO BIG DEAL and adultry is: NO BIG DEAL.

AND

Everything is made okay by an "I'M SORRY" (Tiger Woods, Jesse James, Bill Clinton, A Rod, Kobe Bryant, ect...)

As if that makes it alright. A kiss on the boo boo of today's morals and ethics.

"Children are resiliant, they get over it" is what is heard over and over from people. Ask an adult child of divorce, or an adult child of a cheating parent if they 'GOT OVER IT'. It will never go away...

So go ahead and apologize, but do it to the one's who deserve an apology. The one's who have yet to learn how to forgive in the Christian sense. The one's who truly pay the price for adult's selfish behavior.

The children.

That is what Jesus said as well. He said it to a guilty woman whose sin was going to have to be paid for by his suffering on the cross.

I have apologized to the children. A no excuses full ownership apology. One accepted. One has not.

I am going to leave the exBW alone as that seems to be the majority opinon unless God puts the opportunity clearly in my face and I feel undoubtedly led to speak to her about this. I am going to try to be still and listen to His leading.

I have posted my warning story. I wish I had gotten someone to preview it first but I got emotional writing it and posted. If it helps one person it will be worthwhile.

After reading this entire thread I have come to a course of action you should take.

First, send the child back to her mother.
(How is there relationship now?)

Second, until you common children are out on there own you should stay in this marriage. You will give it 100% with no question about weather it is the right thing to do, either biblicaly or otherwise. You wanted it, you got it, live with it.

Third, once your children are out on there own, Then you should evaluate your situation and decide if God want's you to divorce this man. But do not neglect your marriage wile deciding, continue giving it 100%

What does your husband think of all this?
What does he think about his adultery on you?

Gack the child in question is now 21 and engaged to be married. I can't really send her back. I don't have her to send back! Her and her mother speak often I believe. She is the child who hasn't forgiven me and doesn't speak to me anymore. See and I got to live with her and try to be a mom to a troubled teen who hated me, doesn't God have a sense of humor?

There are no common children. I had two, he had two. Only one, my youngest is left at home still. She is 17 and going off to college in the fall.

My husband and I live in separate houses in the same neighborhood. For my daughters sake because she was so young she considers him her real dad. She spends time at whichever house she chooses. It is literally walking distance. This seemed the best way to handle separating for her sake at the time.

I have forgiven him for cheating on me. I am not 100% sure he understands his behavior yet but that isn't really what is keeping us apart. It is all the other stuff and the lingering doubt and fear in my heart that I can't be forgiven completely if I stay married to him. I haven't divorced him either though. Don't have a peace about either. We do talk and spend some time together but there is no physical intimacy. I feel like at least maybe that is refraining from sinning more if it is true that God would want us to divorce and will not bless our union. At the same time, I have also been counseled that once forgiven for the past mistakes, affair and divorce, that to divorce again would only be making another sin because God hates divorce and would be questioning his power to forgive all and heal. I wish Jesus could come sit down right in front of me and tell me what to do. I know it is in the Bible but my feeble mind can't make heads or tails of it. You can find support for both views.

NewCreation2011

Like you said, I created it. Now I live it.

Unfortunately, you have created possibly generations of sadness/hate for what you conspired and accomplished. You don't deserve to apologize to the innocent woman. Your actions (marrying your AP) aren't consistent with your desire to apologize. And the only thing that matters here is letting your actions define your honor, integrity, and self respect.

Because I was an adulterer myself 15 years ago, I have some empathy for you. Thank God I was shown the error of my ways before my selfishness destroyed two families.

I will never apologize to the father whose family I almost destroyed. I won't because I don't deserve to be given that opportunity. My actions spoke for me, and I failed myself and him. I simply must live with the guilt and try to live my life as good as I can for my wife and our two young kids.

Now that the tables have been turned, and I had to suffer through my wife's A last summer, I truly understand the bottomless pain and suffering that an A inflicts. It is as devastating as the death of a family member.

I have alot of hate and resentment for the POSOM because it is so recent. I may someday be able to forgive him as a man, but I truly believe I will never forgive him as a father. This man took my family to the brink of destruction, even though I talked to him personally, and pleaded with him as a father to a father. He said he would stop. Guess what? He lied. As far as I'm concerned, the POSOM is the devil incarnate. An apology from him would only make me think less of him. "I screwed your wife and now I want to say I'm sorry." Sorry. Too little. Too late. He should go back to his wife and kids and apologize to them. They are the ones who have to live with him.

You say that God has forgiven you. Sometimes I cringe when I hear someone announce this, as if it's supposed to make the victims feel better that the perpetrator is whole. If someone murdered your child, then on death row announced that he was saved, would it make you feel better? It would only infuriate me.

I sure hope God forgives me for what I have done wrong, but I know it won't be in this lifetime. You altered the course of the lives of many, many people. The best thing you can do is to keep the cancer of your choices as far away as possible from this mother. Nothing you can say will be good enough. Regardless of where you are at with God, your apology is too little. Too late.

Try to live an honorable life from this day forward. That is all you can do.

Separate houses?
No intimacy?

Your married only in name as it is.

You need to MAKE a CHOICE!

Flip a coin if you have to.

Either devote yourself 100% to your marriage, or file for divorce. No more limbo, no more waiting, take action!

CHOOSE!

And choose soon.

I know I need to make a choice Gack. But after screwing up so royally I am nearly paralyzed with fear of doing the wrong thing yet again. Honestly before posting here I thought I was going to move back home soon, but a lot of the post here are of the opinion I HAVE to divorce to be truly sorry and after struggling so hard with this question it is now all stirred up again.

I am not asking for sympathy. I do not expect an answer to this question. My original question about apologizing to the BW came out pretty heavily on the no side and I appreciate that input. The rest is my mess to figure out somehow!

Well, if the statute of limitations is expired on your own affair with this guy as a credible reason why you should divorce him...then why not use his most recent affair as the reason.

You keep saying that you don't want to sin by divorcing him...according to the bible, you can use his recent affair as a reason to divorce him...letting you off the hook.

It's really hard to sound sincere when you are still doing the crime.

NewCreation ... I am not sure if this will help you heal, but I found this about adultery and its relation to the bible on the teachings of forgiveness of adultery.

http://www.allaboutlifechallenges.org/forgiving-adultery-faq.htm

There is a link at the bottom of that link that goes to a story about a lady that is in your predicament. Maybe some of it will strike a chord for you.

God BLess

I don't know if another divorce will make you whole. This is my initial reaction. The fact that your A destroyed a family, you married into this, and now your H had another A.....I just don't know how you repair the damages.

My wife and I both survived each other's affairs. My AP's marriage is still intact. My wife's AP's M appears to be headed for D. Our M has lasted 20 years, and we have made a vow to never do this to each other again. We are taking extraordinary precautions to make our M last a lifetime. So, we are living proof that a M can survive two A's.

I wish I knew the answer for you. It is a tough path you have deliberately chosen to take. It appears to be quite a character building lesson. I will be very interested to hear the outcome of your situation. I do wish you well.

IIRC, Dr Harley advocates attempting to save a marriage, even if it is the product of an affair.

Thank you for the link Mr.NiceGuy. I read all of it.

I understand why you might feel this way....but there is no Biblically sound basis for this idea. And yes, because His Word says so, if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. I didn't write those words. God inspired them.

Yes, repent, yes change your life, yes see what you did honestly.....but to stay there after The Christ who died for you has forgiven....is a misuse of His grace.

Honor the vows to your husband.

Call me hardheaded...call me a b*tch...call me narrow minded...but how can she truly repent and be forgiven and still remain married to her AP which also means to still remain (directly or indirectly) in the lives of the other people who she helped destroy...the xBW and her children...who at least 2 of the 3, if I'm reading this correctly, still hurt...which I believe continues because she continues to be a part of their lives by remaining in her AP's life.

As to the apology, it isn't surprising that you have gotten so many viewpoints. People are individuals (profound, I know), and will have their own individual preferences, and responses to being betrayed, wounded, and nearly killed.

Scripture does counsel us to go to our brother when we have wronged him (or her), so that is what I will stick to for advise. Still, I fully recognize the irony that I would not want to hear from OW at this point for anything.

I do believe that an apology should wait until such time as you are not continuing to have relations with this woman's XH, who was sacredly joined to her before God.

Can a marriage which is legal in the eyes of the land be illegitimate in the eyes of God? According to the Bible, the answer is yes.


There is the answer, from Jesus' own mouth, and from someone Jesus said was the greatest of all the prophets. Considering that in OT times, when God led the people directly so there was never a miscarriage of justice, that adulterers were to be stoned, I don't think Jesus' words can be interpreted as a covering for sin. "Well, my H/W did indeed leave their M because of adultery...their own!"

Since a M sanctioned by the state can be seen as adultery by God, it behooves us to be very cautious in offering merely our own opinions as to whether it's ok or not. (And a little note on David and Bathsheba, whose example is often used to sanction affairages: Bathsheba wasn't David's 2nd wife, or even his 3rd. I kind of lost count, but she was somewhere around 7 or 8. So unless you're going to take the position that the story's inclusion in the Bible means that God approves of polygamy, you're left with the realization that the Bible records what happened, whether it was ideal or not. Clearly God disapproves of polygamy, even though it was a common practice in David's time. David, being ignorant of his sin in multiple wives, did not have it held against him, any more than God holds our ignorant sins against us today - Acts 17:30. It doesn't make wrong right.)

So cautiously, here is my opinion, based on the teachings from Jesus.

Affairages are merely a continuation of adultery. However, I don't assume that a legal D must take place. After all, a legal M didn't make it ok in God's eyes. However, the sham of husband/wife should end. Most definitely, I believe they should stop sleeping together. As to whether they live in separate houses or just separate rooms, to D or not to D, ask God and be genuinely open to His leading.

In your case, since further adultery has been committed by your OM/WH, you do have an additional, very clear-cut option to D. That's up to you.

God hates D, but think how much He hates adultery, too. Out of all the object lessons on earth He could have picked, the raw, shredded pain of the BS is what He chose to best represent the agony He feels when we leave Him time and time again.

If you pray, STUDY the Bible, and genuinely open yourself to be led in any direction, God will not let you down. You will know what you need to do.

Welcome to MB.

Tawanda, in answer to your question, Romans 6:1-2 has guidance. The whole chapter is really good.


If we are repentant, with God's power we will LEAVE our sin, and never CONTINUE in it.

The murderer will stop murdering, the thief will stop stealing, the gossip will stop gossiping, the proud will be humble, the profane will become pure, the bank robber will stop robbing banks, and the adulterer will no longer commit adultery. They will each make restoration for their sins, to the greatest extent that they can.

Mary Magdalene struggled time and again to become pure. She would go to Jesus, have a demon cast out, gain forgiveness, and yet somehow go back to her old lifestyle of prostitution. Seven times it happened. Finally the last time she took hold of God in a grip that would never let go, and gained not *only* forgiveness, which was an essential first step, but the power to stop her life of sin.

After being forgiven - having our sins covered with Christ's blood, we need to give up the sins we have held on to, and no longer commit them. That can only ever happen by Christ's power.

[quote]Jude
24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

Originally Posted by Kenmoore14217

NewCreation2011, you may be a born again Christian but to my way of thinking you are still an egotistical narcissist! You want to apologize for yourself, not for the other woman. You have learned NOTHING!!

How very sad to view such a malicious post as this ...

C'mon. Really?

There are only two exemptions for the marriage contract. Adultery on the part of one spouse does free the other to remarry.

The other, if you're curious, is found in 1 Corinthians 7.

Each of us, Christians or no, will choose to either live by the Bible or not. It's right there in black and white, or maybe red, and to me it seems pretty plain.

The only question remaining is whether to accept and follow it...

Thankfully, the flying spaghetti monster makes no such demands...

This same passages are often interpreted to mean that NEITHER spouse can remarry. And then there are issues NOT addressed, like physical abuse, which some legalists dismiss and expect the abused spouse to "suck it up" and "submit." And what of the BW's present marriage? If SHE didn't commit adultery (and she didn't) is she now supposed to divorce her H so she can reconcile with this man?

I do believe the Bible, and I am assuming I am just being overly sensitive in reading into that an implication that I don't. And when I was in college I memorized Romans 6.....it is preceded by a verse in Romans 5 that says "Where sin abounded, grace abounded all the more." And before that...Romans 3:23, which all good EE trainees know by heart. And then the one that says if we keep all the Law and yet stumble at one point, we are guilty of breaking all of it.

See....God's Word isn't meant to be taken in convenient sections. It is all one revelation. The Law and justice.....AND the grace and mercy.

Any way, to the OP;

No, I don't want to hear a dang thing from the OM.

I hope, for myself, that I never see him again.

He has a special place with me forever; the use of the one, singular assault charge I can have on my legal record and maintain my nursing license in my home state.

It's like a kiss coupon, to kiss my fist.

With all due respect, you need to give some still hurting BSs some leeway. This type of issue is going to trigger some people. Adultery is what is sad & ugly...

As a BW this is the position I take. I don't want to hear my WXH and OW apolgize to me until they are broken up for a sufficient amount of time so I know they will never be together again. Until then the apologies ring hollow.

And as for whether or not she is still committing adultery...I do not believe scripture supports that notion. The marriage she broke up is just that--broken. The vows were broken with the adultery of this WH...and the BW has remarried CLEARLY stating she will not forgive the adultery and take him back even if he wanted that.

And of course God can forgive her.

However, that doesn't mean the BW wants to hear an apology from the OW while OW is still maintaining a life with the man she stole.

Sorry I tuned in late! I agree with Neak. You are married and you need to honour it. Rebuild your present marriage on the basis of your vow.

This marriage is a separate issue. Do not be part of its downfall. Speak to your husband using the Plan A method. Write a note to the Ex wife. She may never reply. Do not expect forgiveness. This is a matter between you and God. Pray for it. Trust me, he does change hearts, why he changed yours.

Divorce is permanent as is marriage. The Great news is that you are a New person whom God has forgiven. Take comfort in this!

New Creation,

As a BS that the OW recently made their affairage legal, I don't have to worry about the OW apologizing because in her eyes "she did nothing wrong -- the M was already broken. (He left the M for the OW).

So in a fantasy world if OW humbled herself to apologize I would do Ninja, judo, shoot firearms at her.

I think since are now walking a mile in a BS shoes you FINALLY understand the deep gripping pain that we have felt. You are in the sisterhood no one wants to belong. You want to make it up to her because you are feeling what she felt or may feel to this day.

They say time heals but such a betrayal may never heal. Triggers, life events, it is the death of a partner you are griefing but they are alive and well living their fantasty life with the OP while we are left to pick up the pieces of their carnage.

It changes you forever. Like some other posters I want the karma and to see history repeat itself that little voice inside me says what did you expect and wanting the same for my XH.

Work on yourself, your H is not a true believer because he would not have been cheating. Is he still with the OW?

Remember Cort. 14 Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?

New Creation2011
Your husbands affair is over, right?

No my husband is not currently in an affair.

I don't know how anyone could get "neither" out of "unless". I guess if you're determined enough you can twist anything.

'Suck it up and submit' just isn't an option for the Christian who believes their body is God's temple. If you're going to take the text at face value, separation and divorce would be permitted. Remarriage to another person would not.

Re the BXW who has now remarried, she was completely released from her wedding vows upon divorcing Mr. NewCreation, and permitted to remarry. She is as bound to her current H as if he was the first man she had ever married. It would be a terrible wrong for her to leave him and go back to her first (ex) husband.

I didn't assume you didn't believe the Bible, and was only trying to clarify a point. I'm sorry I came across that way.

Originally Posted by NewCreation2011

I am now a totally different person than I was at that time. I have a relationship with Jesus and could not possibly regret more having an affair. I have been dealt with spiritually on this matter and I know that I am forgiven by God but I have been a changed person for years now and I still have this nagging feeling that I should apologize to the wife. Is that the right thing to do?
NewCreation

Hello, NewCreation ~
I believe you are not the same person you were in 1996.
According to 2 Cor 5:17:
"Therefore if any man is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come."

Because we are Sisters In Christ, I am hoping you will share your testimony with me.

Love in Him ~

Sin really sucks. I think I should make that a Sunday School lesson one week. Because it really does....it just hurts everyone.

Where did you see this? The writing of his that I have seen does not say that he advocates it but states that he will try to help folks who come to him in an affairage but that despite his efforts he hasn't had much success.

I allways think of this, even being cheated on, and remember its the law, and that the law was asked for so we could usurp Gods place of judgement.

John 1:17
For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Wrong or right, we have all fallen short, we can divorce because of adultry, but it is a provision because of the hardness of our hearts. Has anyone bothered to mention that if we sin in any, we are guilty of all?

God wants repentance, that is change, but people want vengence, and that is supposed to be Gods job. I wouldn't want a child molester living in my nieborhood, and I wont forgive them either, rather I would want them strung up by thier privates. I have no respect for adulterers, and find them screwwed up and selfish beyond contempt, and would trust them around my kids either. So don't think I approve of this marriage, not in my eyes, but its not my eyes that matter, its Gods.

I find it troubling that people want this woman to give up her marriage now because of how it started, when many marriages have started when people have unprotected sex out of wedlock, and then go to God as they realize they have to grow up when pregnancy results. But I can understand she put a target on her back coming here. I wonder how many Christians who are here stepped over the line and had sex before marriage, and then realized it was wrong, and went to God for forgivness, and are still encouraged to have a full life and marriage, while getting thier head out of their butt. I wonder if someone like that would be helped, or turned away.

Her story is one nobody is surprised with, affairage marriages are ussually doomed from the start, based on the character of the people involved, but instead of helping her understand her mistakes, and helping her to teach others from them, we are telling her to make it right,(Which is impossible), she must undo what can't be undone,(Also impossible). Maybe it needs to be said that Moses, (The Law), and Paul,(Transformation thru Grace), were both murderers.

I think it took a lot of guts coming here, and I hope your post helps others to understand and avoid the foolishness of affairs, and the fallout that you now are experiencing. Seek what God leads you, and don't be dis-heartened. Stick around and read, learn how to help others, and know that is what God would want.

Just don't expect to much mercy here, as you shouldn't right?

CP, Jesus told the adulterous woman to go, and sin no more. He ABSOLVED HER. Because He knew her Heart. AND IT WAS ACCEPTABLE TO HIM.

As a BW, I am appalled at the vitriol displayed to this woman!!

We are not without sin! Throw the first stone, Constant.

You must have misread my post or misunderstood it. I accually wish to support her in her efforts. Maybe I was not clear Im sorry

Sorry the idea that a OW suddenly finds Christ AFTER they're done destroying a marriage and committing adultery has always rang hollow to me.

My dad married his OW, who conveniently found Jesus after my parents split.

My dad asked me if I would ever be ok with the OW visiting me or for me to come see him when she was there. My answer was that she could start floating in air, grow a halo, start performing miracles and I STILL wouldn't want anything to do with her.

Your finding of Christ AFTER you destroyed a marriage is nothing more than a "cover my [censored] so I don't go to hell where I belong".

Only God knows what's truly in your heart and can decide your eternal place that way.

Otherwise, as a child of a broken family and as a BS, I say assuage your guilt another way.

The BEST thing that could happen is that you get a taste of your own medicine so you can finally understand the he11 you put her through. No apology can ever compensate for what you destroyed. Let the woman be.

I read your other post and think it was a good warning, but an apology accomplishes nothing and might simply trigger her.

What I do know is that when my dad divorced the OW I got him back and rebuilt a new relationship with him. Wouldn't have been possible with OW in the picture since I was never going to let her into my life, see my kids, or be around me or my family in any way. Actually, I had fantasies of water boarding her before anyone even knew what that was.

My brother scratched up her car and yelled at her. My sister never saw her or was around her.

This went on for years.

I know you're seeking forgiveness. You'll trigger some of us here and I'm sure you are trying to calm that guilt, but the only real way to make things right is to divorce the man you married and disappear from his life forever.

It's the only way I was able to rebuild my relationship with my dad. Sounds harsh, but that's the truth.

You'll remove all of that stress in your H's life and his kid's life.

BUT, if you're not willing to D him, then I say you need to remove yourself from those functions where he's there with his biological kids and his family and the BW's family.

Do that out of respect and set your need to show your place as the new wife aside.

This allowed my dad to have some level of participation in our lives.

Granted, all of this stuff happened when we were grown (except for my brother, who was 15).

Grown kids can make life a bit more he11 for the AP than a kid with no options can by simply excluding them and demanding the AP not come to anything.

I'd say that may be in your future in terms of weddings and other celebrations.

Maybe, maybe not.

Huh. Jesus told His fellow sufferers on the cross that they endured that He would see them in Heaven. He didn't seem to have a BIG PROBLEM WITH THEIR SINS. OR THE FACT THAT THEY HADN'T QUITE COMMITTED TO A FAITH.

As it should, me too.

But these people have no respect for marraige, they don't even realize what it is, and they don't even respect God do they?

If I remember right, she was 18 when she had the affair resulting in this marraige. I don't think she even had squat together at that age, and who knows what she was raised in either.

At 18 you want a relationship but have no idea the most important one you should have first is with God. How many here can say they were so different. I was married at 18 to my GF since 16, and she was the one who had an affair when I was 20, we eventually divorced 3 years later, but by the time I was 40 I knew it was the hardness of my own heart why we did, even though adultry gave me a get-out-of-marriage-free card.

I wish I had marriage builders then, or had just had the guts to fight for the marriage, instead of run away in pain and anger. But I did not know God then either, as I do now.

Only God can judge if the sudden discovery of Jesus is genuine or if it's a "cover my a$$ so I don't go to he11 for adultery".

For me, a human, I'm skeptical.

Sorry if you don't agree.

To everyone, I came here fully aware that some people would not appreciate my posting or believe in my repentance or my forgiveness. That is okay.

Some of you have been unbelievably gracious and wonderful to me. Supporting me in my attempt to let my mistakes serve some small good by warning others. And welcoming me in Christ. To you I am so very grateful.

I have laid it all out there as truthfully as I can. These are not things I am proud to admit for sure!

One thing I really don't want is to cause any strife on the boards between those of you who already fellowship together here. Thank you to those attempting to defend me. I will not melt from the scorching remarks, I did come here braced for them.

Really? Due to the traumatic nature of infidelity, I can easily understand that there are some who will be angered/upset/triggered by someone in an affairage...no matter how remorseful they may seem...

NewCreation, it is a tough road. I have come to realize that there will always be people for whom bitterness holds more appeal than grace. And given the pain that adultery causes....I can as a human understand that.

That being said....I know whom I have believed. I know I belong to him. I know I have been fully forgiven, by God and by my DH. I realized a couple of months ago that trying to convince others of that fact was just going to keep me paralyzed in a guilt Christ already paid the price for....and thus harm the M that has recovered.

I am accountable to my God, My DH, and myself for what I did in the past and how I conduct my heart and life today and from this day forward. In the end, that is all that matters. Whatever you decide, keep your focus. I lost my focus on the one man whose opinion of me matters right before Christmas because I was so busy trying to convince the rest of the world of what he and I both know to be true. DH almost intervened. Now I have another boundary to enforce....the boundary of allowing others' bitterness to harm me, and by default, my M. I will not allow that to happen....ever.

Also, I am not sure where it came from that I was 18 but I was 24. I wish I could claim that I was only 18 as a defense but I am trying to be completely honest.

I married the first time at 16, I know it sounds strange but it was normal in my family. I got pregnant six months later and was divorced with 2 children by 24. Yes, I was divorced before I met my now husband. Unfortunately he wasn't, and here I am.

So trash an 18 year old, Constant. Now that she is a grown woman who has put her sins out her for us, a bunch of flawed humans, to scrutinize and belittle. Is that what you want? She has ALREADY DONE THIS VOLUNTARILY. What else would you like for her to do?

You wish you'd had MB in your sitch. This woman does.

What would you like to do with her now. With all of your knowledge.

Wow. Thanks Tawandabelle. Once again I find comfort and grace in your words. I needed that reminder of where my salvation comes from. You are right, though I may care as a human, others judgements of me do not matter in eternity. Deep breath! :-)

Constant, for some really weird reason, I believe that God has this woman in His arms. And I think she just might be one of His favored children right now.

This is uncalled for.

MB, this sounds like you are suggesting she get help for saving her affairage here...that is not what you are suggesting is it?

I think she is doing a great job of helping other's understand what a true repentant OW in an affairage looks like. THAT is the best help she can get here, IMHO.

Oh no, I hate to see posters that I love on here, fighting....I am gonna stop reading....Dont let it make you guys not like each other...its like watching family members fight...which is okay as long as it doesnt make you all dislike each other...You are all such good people...

Wow MB, I am supporting her, and my heart goes out to her, are you serious that you think I am bashing her?

Please re-read my posts and pull up quotes and show me how you came to the conclusion I was bashing her for being here.

It just goes to show that A's can cause discord in all things...

I agree more than you know MB.

I'm not meaning to fight. I hate adultery. I despise what I did to my DH in 2006. But I also know the undeserved joy of forgiveness and restoration...and I want people to be able to experience that. I have no idea how DH managed to forgive me and seem to love me today more than ever.....he is an amazing man. We are NOT perfect by any stretch, but God has done such a miracle for us, I guess I just wish I could spread it around.

Not everyone responds to adultery the same way. And there is no doubt in my mind that our story could have turned out very differently if there had not been real repentance and work and honesty. And I don't fault anyone who just cannot stay married to a person who would betray them in such an intimate way.

I have received unmerited favor. My prayer will always be that everyone on earth would receive it as well.

"Bitterness is a poison that destroys its container"

I heard a preacher quote that one time, and I also understand that is why it is important to forgive, and why we are asked to, for us.

Its OK, as Christians, I look at it "As Iron sharpening Iron". We are reasoning together are we not? None of us know anything as we should, and in the end, we can still agree to disagree. I hope I am big enough to not get upset when misunderstood.

NewCreation, I've been reading this thread with rapt attention.

I'm a BS who is now divorced from his WxW, who ran off to have an affair with a married man. As far as I know, the affair died before the ink was dry on the divorce papers.

Her behavior was part of a triple-whammy: I had health problems, and wound up losing my job because I couldn't focus on it after she demolished our marriage.

However, this led me to a greater understanding of, and relationship with God. One of the things that helped me tremendously was learning how to forgive her.

I have not seen or spoken with her in over a year. I have no intention of ever doing so (unless God plans otherwise). But I came to accept who and what she was, what she did, and know that she has to live with it every day, as do I.

I say this only because I am convinced of your contrition. I side with those who say Christ forgives your sins. One of my favorite scriptural verses is Ephesians 2:8,9:

I have not lived a life of saintly purity. But we are told in Romans 3:20

And I believe Romans 10:9,10:

Yes, the betrayal I and many others have suffered is severe and more painful than anything I've endured in my life. But if I live in hate then I too, am lost.

Thank you for sharing your story.

Newcreation, did my comments make you feel like I am against you in your present marriage? Because I am for restoration, just to be clear, even though others might not agree with that.

I thought the comments quoted above made that clear. But some have misread them, or I worded them wrong.

NC where is that thread you posted?

I really think you are just giving me a hard time MB, to be funny or something, IDK. But if not could you tell me you see that I am for her?

Ok long day, gnight guys

ConstantProcess, no I am not offended by your post nor do I feel picked on by you. Your thoughts were well stated and I believe well meaning. Thank you.

NewCreation

Oh, ugh, Constant. I read too fast and misunderstood you. I am so sorry.

Forgive me, please?

Should she get help here? Yes, I think she would be wise to contact the Harleys for some direction. I don't know how the issue of her affairage will be addressed, but I think they would be a good resource. I am not suggesting she should expect support. NewCreations affairage is, of course, not supportable.

That is not to say that you have no redeeming value, NewCreations. I don't mean to imply that at all. You have shown remarkable humility and contriteness which doesn't happen very often with OPs around here.

New Creation, I just read through this whole thread and tried to picture it in terms of how I would feel if either one of my DH's OW came to me and tried to apologize. I can't picture it because my DH and I restored our marriage and there was no affairage. I have forgiven OW, but I know me, and I could not have reached that point if there had been a marriage between them.

I believe your heart. It seems clear to me that you are truly repentant and want to do whatever is necessary to continue to grow the most important relationship in your life-- with God. You SHOULD divorce your husband, and in my opinion, you've been given a life raft out of this marriage because of his adultery.

Let me tell you about another couple I know who are in an affairage and have been for over 30 years.

Both the WH and WW are elders in a church I used to attend. This same couple was appointed to help counsel my DH and I when we first began recovery. Yikes! When I discovered how their marriage began, I lost any respect I had for them and felt strongly that they should not be in leadership. It really blew my mind when it was announced that they would be leading a course on marriages. You see, even though they were both repentant about the origin of their marriage, and God forgave them (?), their words are meaningless to me.

You have a great message to share. However, if you are still married to your WH, your message is flawed. I don't see how you could ever minister to a BS. You may be able to reach a WS, but because you are still married to your WH, you may give them unintentional affirmation that adultery works out in the end. You would then not only be responsible for the damage done to the lives of the people directly affected by your affairage, but also to other families out there who are directly affected by your indirect support to the people responsible for destroying their families. The cycle will continue.

Please... if you decide to stay married to your AP, don't do further damage by spreading your testimony. It would be so damaging. I can't imagine a pastor who would allow it. Well, I guess I can because the pastor in our old church did.

As far as your WH's 1st BS, your apology will be meaningless as long as you remain married to her WH. Sorry, it just will.

And think about this. Why?

Why do you want to apologize to her? How will it benefit her? Will it help her heal? What's in it for you?

Think long and hard about your motives.

I dunno, this is a tough one. I congratulate you on at least trying to do the right thing now.

OK, I am a BS from a long time ago. I am still married. Ironically I came back to process the OW's death which I found out about recently, so she has been on my mind.

It sounds as though the BS still harbors feelings that are affecting her, her children and probably her own marriage, as a result of the affair over 10 years ago and the fallout that continues to this day

You are only one of the two who hurt her, so I am unsure how effective your apology might be, but i I think I would do it, probably in a letter.

For one thing, she may be thinking, humfff (maybe spelled differently) she apologizes to my children, were is MY apology?

I think it would be a package, maybe not a gift, but a package that then she could do with it what she wanted, in her own time.

If at any time down the road, she could lessen her bitterness toward you, that would be good for her, and be good for her kids and even their own children way down the road.

Then you did what you could, without expectation, and she would be fee to react, sort out and act how she chooses.

Christians don't like harboring bitterness.

That said, I would guess she blames BOTH of you. If she feels your husband is not sincerely remorseful, then it may make little difference. But you can't control your husband feelings or actions.

As for your current marriage, if you do decide to stay married, I would seek very good counsel. You are still broken, although you are a wonderful work in progress. Your husband does not sound like he is in the same place. Given the circumstances, plus his infidelity, you should stay married for the sake of staying married. It may be more than can be fully repaired and healed. I wish you the best.

Creation 2011

Hi again, well what a post, I am a BS as well and have endured the very pain that you have inflicted on another family by having your affair with a married man I feel compassion for you.
I think you truly have remorse for the pain you have caused, it doesn't take away their pain in any way......and that is something you will have to live with the rest of your life.
I know you wished you had made better decisions for yourself and not just let yourself be consumed with selfishness.
I feel bad that the very man you degraded yourself for wasn't worth it in the end.
That must hurt, I know you must have thought you were special to him for him to leave his wife and family..........that man has a problem and I think you would be lucky to not have him in your life any longer.......
I'm glad that you posted here, told your story, it is going to help someone with their processing some day and that is a good thing........
It is so rare that someone like you comes to this board and just lays the good and bad about the whole adulltery thing, all the hurt from every angle the parts that the fantasy of the relationship just doesn't take into account.........the fall out is tremendous and long lasting..........no one is ever the same again after an affair............I think if you want to apologize to everyone you have hurt then go ahead and do it, the children, the Xwife............a letter to her I think would be okay.......none of us here know what that xwife really wants, I am in agreement it might not mean anything, but it might, we don't know this.............if it were me and the OW was trying to do the right thing after much self reflection I would at least read the apology and understand the transformation of a person with God's help..............I don't know about forgiving someone that has created that much havic in my life I'm still to early on in my recovery..........but I do believe that when one does something to harm someone else with intent then an apology is something that should be given..........it's the right thing to do.....
will it help, only she knows that..............even if you apologize to her I know it won't help you.........other than you will have done what you have been brought up to do when you hurt someone else..........
It takes a great deal of compassion for the BS's on here to understand your side of the story, me included........but that is why in an affair the BS's are the better choices, because they are just better people then the ones that are in an affair(sorry that includes who you used to be). BS's never ask for any of the pain they are forced to endure because of someone else's selfish decisions.........
But you my friend have decided yourself to make you a person that you can be proud of from now on...........today can be the first day of your new life and the new you......
Stick around and get the help you need for that, help others but telling your side and helping them understand what is happening and why............living through adultery is a very harmful thing to ones self esteem and self worth if you can help at all with that I say go and help someone else....
I think for you a complete start over free from anyone that can commit adultery is the first step..........no more..........move on..............to something better for yourself...........

Yes, I agree, if she wants support she should get it in private forom the Harleys ~ not on the public forum where so many are reeling from the pain of their spouse's affair.
That is like rubbing it in all the BS's faces who have just been hit with a gunshot wound to the head.

ITA. The betrayed spouses on this site are in many different stages of healing. I don't know that I would have been very accommodating to NC if I'd read her post two years ago. That was about the time when I was trying to figure out how to rip every strand of hair out of the OW's head and not go to jail for it.

I am a BS. WXH has been living with OW for 4 years. In Canada, common law offers the same privaledges and responsibilities as marriage, so consider their relationship to be an affairage. It's been a long time now and I've moved on with my life. I haven't seen or spoken to him in nearly a year and I haven't seen her in much longer than that. I have been rather successful in all aspects and I am very satisfied with my life right now. Consider me to be similar to your H's BW.

The very LAST thing I would want is for OW to appologize to me. As far as I'm concerned, OW is the lowest form of life around. She stole my H and tried to steal my house, my son, my friends - basically my life. She also cheated on her own husband and destroyed her little daughter's family. As far as I'm concerned, she has no redeaming features whatsoever. If she had the nerve to approach me by any means - in person, email, fax, text message, third party - whatever - I would assume her selfishness and sense of entitlement has led her to believe she somehow deserves my forgiveness, too. I would actually feel like she's trying to steal something else from me because, you know, that's what she does.

I don't believe I'll feel differently in 10 years or 20 years. Don't think I'm letting this eat me to the bone or anything. I actually don't think of her much at all if ever. I used to wonder if I'd swerve to miss her if she walked out in front of my car. Now I'm pretty sure I would, but that's because it would p*ss me off if she scratched the paint.

From Luke;


The second thief showed repentance for his sins, and mercy for Jesus - "this man has done nothing wrong."

A thief, facing the end of his own life, felt pity for the Son of God because of his innocence.

That is repentance; acknowledgment of our sins, and pity, empathy for those suffer unjustly.

I'd say NC is doing exactly that...

Mine apologized, and her parents apologized to me. So did her sister.

I don't know that it helped me or hurt me. I think the OW is in huge denial about her own role in it ( professional victim), and she has slept with another married man as well.

I hope talking to me made her understand that I am real, and not some fictional person. And that I wasn't as described by my husband.

I have no idea how she views me, or views herself. I know that her family came down very hard on her, so I am hoping that her apology to me and her accountability to her family keeps her from hurting someone else like this.

But if she had succeeded in marrying my husband, and had to serve a role in my children's lives?

I would never want to speak to her. I would have gone out of my way to avoid her on every level. The pain would be too great.

NewCreation --

I have a totally unrelated, but very sincere question for you:

Why did you get married ??

I truly don't get it. Why would getting married be important to 2 people who didn't respect the boundries that marriage represents? You had no respect for the institution of marriage -- nor did your affair-partner-now-husband.

So why get married?

NewCreation i have been reading this thread all along. I'm not sure if i have an answer from you 3 1/2 yrs out from my dday and my xh moving out, but it has got my interest what you are offering to the BW in your case.

My xh still lives with his OW the last 3 1/2 years they have been together for 4 years now and my 3 year old daughter sees her weekly. There is a lot to my sitch that would be to much to write here right now.

My xh wrote a letter to me once before and i acknowledged it but i did not respond to it. I think at this time if i saw senserity in another person as i do in you I would like that remorse to be shown. As it is the last i had talked to OW she still thinks she did nothing wrong as she wasn't the one married. So i'm not sure if my OW will ever get it, but again there is more my reason for that.

I will say that you did help with the fact that the OW who "won" so to speak can/may see their error. I see alot of FWS on here but they are buy in large are recovering with their spouses. I don't know if i am making sense but you did help me.

No problem MB

Originally Posted by ConstantProcess

Originally Posted by ConstantProcess

I find it troubling that people want this woman to give up her marriage now because of how it started, when many marriages have started when people have unprotected sex out of wedlock, and then go to God as they realize they have to grow up when pregnancy results. But I can understand she put a target on her back coming here. I wonder how many Christians who are here stepped over the line and had sex before marriage, and then realized it was wrong, and went to God for forgivness, and are still encouraged to have a full life and marriage, while getting thier head out of their butt. I wonder if someone like that would be helped, or turned away...

--Snip--

...I think it took a lot of guts coming here, and I hope your post helps others to understand and avoid the foolishness of affairs, and the fallout that you now are experiencing. Seek what God leads you, and don't be dis-heartened. Stick around and read, learn how to help others, and know that is what God would want.

Newcreation, did my comments make you feel like I am against you in your present marriage? Because I am for restoration, just to be clear, even though others might not agree with that.

I thought the comments quoted above made that clear. But some have misread them, or I worded them wrong.

CP ~
I've read EVERY post... When I read your initial post, I understood EXACTLY what you were saying...
(I heard love, mercy, grace, compassion in your post.)
AND, I agreed with everything you expressed!
Then, I saw some posters who somehow misinterpreted your post!
I decided that they must have either skim-read it without fully understanding it, because I knew if they HAD understood your post, they would not have said what they said!!!
Anyway, I'm just now reading your re-post and thought I'd put my 2-cents worth in...
You done good!
If I don't see you BEFORE ~ Well, I'll see you when we get there!

Well its all over now, my good friend MB corrected her misreading and apoligized. ((MB)). All I was afraid of really was this woman misunderstanding also, and because I am so longwinded and sometimes seem to beat around the bush making a point,(my kids hate this, and would rather have something taken away when they were young, than to make them think, and listen and reason with me when they had to listen to my lectures, Lol, sorry I knew that game.)...well anyways.. because I am so long winded in my posts, and was straddling the fence for the betrayed who are newly experiencing pain, and seeking retribution emotionally of course. I thought it was my fault anyways. I take that responsibility, its up to me to be clear.

This place above all is a healing site, and I look at it as a way God, truth and light can heal all. We have all fallen short. NewC knows this also, and I will support her learning and teaching, now that she has learned why those rules God gives us about life and marriage are so important.

May her children never have to know her pain and guilt, or be part of how people spread it to others. This was a problem with my late wife, when she could not show how sin had messed up her life, and she thought they should see her sacrifice for them, and to avoid it for them is the best gift they will never know. What she had given up, was crap, and for them to experiance that was the legacy her Mom left her.

Thank you for your kind words, it brought a tear to my eye. I'll see you at that great table on the other side.

Love ya, Constant! Hugs back to you! (Heck, big group hug for all of us! ) You're not allowed to take the rap for my fast-reading of your post, I'm not gonna let you!

We've all fallen short. Some of us know it, others...it takes them longer. NC, you get it. Your postings struck a chord with me, and that doesn't happen too often, that I feel compassion for someone who could be the OW in my sitch. I feel protective of you because I think your articulate postings contain a huge lesson of insight that we would be foolish to dismiss.

"Hate the sin. Love the sinner." I try to remember that but I don't always do very well with it, sigh. In this case, it's not so hard.

Wow. What an amazing group of people here! I am overwhelmed by the grace I have been shown in this of all places.

It does occur to me that it is sad that all these great people and all this amazing information doesn't usually come to anyone's attention until after they have been affected by adultery.

Happy weekend everyone!
NC

NC, have you told your children yet?

ITA with Tabby, POSOW coveted my life and subsequently stole it. She also betrayed her H and destroyed her 3 small kids lives. An apology now, 10 years, or 20 years can never erase the hurt and devastation caused by all of this.
NC, I do understand you want to "put things right" but the truth is YOU CAN NEVER MAKE THINGS RIGHT.

Also here is a little FYI, my parents divorced when I was in my early 20's due to an A. My dad married his AP and they have been married 20+ years now. I love my father and will spend time with him and my "stepmother"; BUT I WILL NEVER HAVE ANY RESPECT FOR EITHER OF THEM - EVER.
So please do not attempt to counsel other marriages, it just sends the wrong message.
JMHO

NC,

The only apology I know of that was ever wasted was an insincere one.

Your apology will not be wasted.


I also want you to know that the Apology Police are not coming. There are no deadlines that you have missed, and you won't be put in Apology Jail if your words are selected imperfectly.

Keep these ideas in mind when you write the letter:

1. In your first sentence, make sure you apologize. Do NOT say, "I WANT to apologize." Say, "I APOLOGIZE." By saying "I want" you place distance between you and the apology. Don't do that.

2. Make sure you apologize at least three times in the letter. Be specific about the apology: you apologize for the pain you caused, for breaking up the family, for failure to take the blame that you should have owned at the time, for viewing her as a non-person and an enemy who stood in the way of your selfish desires; whatever you are apologizing for, be specific.

3. Be careful with use of the words "but" or "however" or "although" in the letter. Make sure that these are NOT used to justify your behavior, or to place an excuse for yourself or your husband after one of these words, or to place blame on her either.

4. Do not say anything about your own pain. It minimizes hers, and the letter is not about your pain.

5. Do tell her that you recognize the destruction you caused.

6. Do tell her that you have remorse and regret. Tell her how this has caused you to change the way you see her, and that you have wanted to apologize for a long time, but did not feel worthy enough to do it, and that you know it does not even begin to restore any of the damage you have caused.

7. Do not ask her for anything. Not even forgiveness. You could tell her that you hope that someday when enough of her pain has moved into the past, that she might find it in her heart to consider a move toward forgiving you, and you understand that this day may never come, as healing may take her a very long time.

8. Do close the letter with a final word of apology, and a committment to her that you will not sin in this way again - against ANYONE. It is the lesson learned and the sincerity of this that can make the apology sincere.


Good luck.

And, for the record, keep a copy for yourself. So that down the line, you can show your kids, and her kids, that people who do the wrong thing can and should own it. And attempt a proper apology and restitution - even if it is "too late", even if it is hard, even if other people think it's for the "wrong reason", even if the color of the moon is in purple retrograde while the grass is blowing from the prairies.................you know.

@ SB ~
A perfectly worded post!
I agree with you...
NC's apology is simply a first step in her process of making amends with BW...
Unless BW is led to receive NC's apology, it may be the only step!
I am hoping that BW, as a Sister in Christ, will allow God to give her a measure of peace that surpasses all comprehension through NC's gesture.
In my understanding of seeking forgiveness from someone you have sinned against,it is more important for the person who is sinned against to be given the opportunity to share with the perpetrator how the sin against "them" made them "feel" than is is for the perpetrator to receive the words, "Yes, I forgive you."
Unless the perpetrator is willing to "hear" the victim's sadness, pain & ANGER regarding an offense, to me, the person seeking the apology/forgiveness is simply attempting to assuage their own guilty conscience!
If BW considers forgiving NC, I hope she will also be given the opportunity to vent ALL of her feelings of bitterness!
BW deserves to address the perpetrator (NC).
BW's xWH should follow NC's lead in this process.
However, it sounds like he is definitely NOT in the same place spiritually!
All NC can do is "her part"... She is NOT responsible/accountable for xWH's choices to have an adulterous relationship with her! (AND/OR his "new" AP!)
Ultimately, xWH is going to stand before Christ "ALONE" and give an account of his life!
We, God's precious children, will be watching from the sidelines!
That is not to say that the rest of us will not have to stand before Christ to give an accounting...
We will...
The question of which "judgment" each person must give an accounting before the throne of Christ is determined by each individual...
1. The Bema Seat of Christ
or
2. The Great White Throne Judgment

@ NC ~
The processes of seeking forgiveness / extending forgiveness are not easy.
Executing these processes causes one to demonstrate much "humility".
First things first:
Examine your "MOTIVES"!
They are either:
1. PURE
or
2. CORRUPT
Ask our Dad to examine your heart... If He says, "Go!"
Well, then,
" G O " ! ! ! ! ! ! !
When I offend (SIN) against someone, I must:
1. Apologize.
2. Ask for forgiveness.
3. Ask the person I sinned against to tell me how my sin made them feel.
When someone sins against me, apologizes and asks me for forgiveness, I must accept their apology and extend forgiveness IF I choose to "be" the person Jesus teaches me to be! Jesus expects me to say:
1. "Thank you for apologizing to me."
2. "Yes, I forgive you."
3. "When you _____________________, it made me feel ____________________... (Fill in the blank ie. sad, mad, frustrated, disappointed, guilty, frightened, hurt, lonely, surprised, disgusted, exasperated, idiotic, jealous, stupid, etc...)

Why is it so difficult to allow someone to tell us how our sin against them made them REALLY FEEL!!!
I think it is because we do NOT like having to suffer the consequences of our poor choices!

I know firsthand that when I encourage someone to "vent" their feelings toward me when I have sinned against them, it helps :
T H E M!!!!
And, helping T H E M is exactly what I should want!
My desire is for the offended person to have a measure of restoration / reconciliation with themselves AND with God!

Even if it means that I must humble myself to complete vulnerability!
Using "two" ears & "one" mouth proportionately is key!
Actually, I have found it better to pull out the duct tape! That really works better...

BW has had years to feel bitterness toward you and xWH to build up! I am truly sad for her...
She deserves an opportunity with you to get that out!

It doesn't have to be in person... Maybe she will reply to your letter in kind...
I hope so!
You are on the right track, girlfriend in Christ!
God Bless ~

SchoolBus and LoveIsAChoice, you have given good advice IMO.

SB is a lauguage expert of some kind, im sorry, I don't know what the title is of her talent, but it is obviuos in the posts.

I like what was said by both.

I agree, excellent posts!

I think it says quite a bit about this site, and Dr.H., that many have come here, and without advocating the adultry, have helped NC in her own personal recovery.

It speaks volumes about how hating adultry, does not mean hating people. How the tools will work, if they are submitted to. How each persons individual emotional maturity, is the first goal we seek when posting.

I hope this thread helps the BSs out there who are lost and hurt, understand in the end, it is not hate of the WS we preach here, but there actions.

This attitude, is the one that will build trust in restoration, and therefore with the vets here. Raining down fire and brimstone on a repentant, or in the process, repentant individual, must be balanced with guidance.

God, or whatever you call truth and light, freedom and justice, reality and accountability, will allways be served, regaurdless of whether people run away and hide or not.

He also gives a way out of Sin, you will never be tested beyond that point that there is not a way out.

We as humans, and accoutable to God, must be brave enough to tell the truth, but yet we are limited in our perspective.

1 Corinthians 13:12
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.


"Hate the sin, not the sinner" as another poster so aptley stated above, is the reason the vets here post, and lay out the ugly truth, and 2x4 both the betrayed and the betrayer. The wise ones show a light and a path back, they know nobody wants thier marriage condemed to a life of sadness and sorrow, and they will not follow a path of slavery. God doesn't want that either.

Galatians 2:21
I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.


Galatians 3:2
This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Romans 7:4
Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

This whole verse really talks a lot about the Law. But this post is long enough, so I'll end with.
Romans 7:21-25
I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

So to me that means we will never be or act perfect, and are still subject to our human frame, with all the mistakes, bad judgements, and selfish pursuits of what we call happiness.

Thank God for the death of his Son, the only perfect one in all areas of the law, that died because of our perceptions of what was right.

This has meant peace for me, and even more encouragement to follow God, trusting His wisdom over my experience.

That is what I see MB to represent also, that truth will set you free.

Any statement you begin which leads to one of these words should be thoroughly thought out before it is committed to writing.

Most things that would be modified with these words lack sincerity.

Originally Posted by ConstantProcess

That is what I see MB to represent also, that truth will set you free.

Well said, CP...

MB is the light that shines in the darkness!
I have approached our pastor and asked him if he will consider allowing a MB Sunday School class...
I need to collect as much information as possible from MB about a Sunday School curriculum for him to read...

How many of our precious brothers & sisters in Christ are in the throes of marital conflict?
How many of us put on our when we feel & & & & & & & & & & & & & & ????

And, there we sit:
Fat, Dumb & Happy in our Hypocrisy
The elephant is in the room and we pretend it's a lamp!
"Isn't that the most 'UGLY' lamp you've ever seen?"...

'Nuf said...
Hugs to all ~

Just a little question though.....Dont blast me but....How can she apologize for something that she is still doing....I would like an apology from my OW if she stopped screwing my WH...but how can she apologize if she is still perpetrating...." I am so sorry for helping to destroy yours and your childs family...I am still with your WH...but I am sorry for the pain I caused and continue to cause you an your family. I am gonna continue to do it but...I am sorry." This is what I would hear....

I am just confused how it will be a true apology...

Go to confession, make your peace with God....But I truly feel apologizing to exBW just makes no sense at this point...

How about the part where....You stop committing the sin!!!

I agree with you, still.

Am I attacking the OP? No. Do I think she SOUNDS sincere? Yes!

But if there is anything that I have learned here...talk is cheap and actions are what you need to look at.

The underpinings of Dr Harley's whole philosophy is that until there is NC in place...waywards stay "foggy". So even if NewCreation is 100% out of the fog (which I am not convinced of yet) just the fact that she is in her WH's life would mean HE most likely would remain foggy. Which as far as I am concerned she confirmed in the other thread. It does not sound like he is repentent and it doesn't sound like he is interested in making amends to his children or his xBW. And just her continued marriage to the WH still pains the xBW from what has been posted. This bothers me. Sorry.

Thank you, Susie....I am not attacking OP and I hope she doesnt feel that we are.....

I just think that her forgiveness at this point is between her and God... and as far as the exBW, well, the sin is still being done to her...just because she is remarried and so many years have past...doesnt erase that.

still, there is another thread in MB101 where Mrs Wondering talks about her suggestion that the partners in an affairage separate until both waywards are repentant for the sake of everyone involved. It really resonated with me.

Something about an apology to the xBW feels disingenous to me at this point as well.

As an aside, it's too bad that the ones who aren't in support of NewCreations are being written off as bitter or unforgiving. I don't think that's the case at all.

I mean I would hate to suggest that they separate...but for her to make a true apology to the exBW...well...I think it would make sense...Otherwise, I feel, the apology is a hollow one...

I am gonna check out that thread....




PS....Just another thought...maybe I am just being dumb (wouldnt be the first time)...When you marry an affair partner does that change your OW title to a FOW?..

StillHere .. i think if you read all her posts .. you will discover that she is seperated from her husband currently. At least I am pretty sure i read that somewhere ... too lazy to search for it.

Okay...but unless they are divorced, then they are married...(am I being dumb again?)...Or they still have an "affairage"...If she is going to completely dump this "person" and separate the affairage, when that is done, then and only then is it a good time for the "apology" to the exBS. JMHO....

So if that is the case and I missed it, then ...I apologize...otherwise I stand by my posts..

No, she did not say that they were officially "separated"...but only that they are living in separate households in the same neighborhood and that she was prepared to move back home until she started posting here.

Thats what I thought I read too.....

So are we saying that if someone has an A at some point, marries the person, the BS's remarry, years pass, they repent and face what they did.....the only way to be honorable people is to divorce?

Would it make a difference if the couple gave birth to children during their M? For those who are Christians, does it make a difference if they became Christians AFTER all this happened? Is divorce the only convincing act of remorse?

I am not being sarcastic at all. I am genuinely asking if that is the position of posters. I would also like to know if that is the position of the founder of the site. Because I assume that whatever Dr. Harley would say would be what we would say as well.

My hope is that MelodyLane will come here and post a link from her speed-dial.

In the meantime, I believe that Dr. Harley would first look at the family situation. If there are children from the affairage, I think he would be in favor of treating it like a marriage. If not, no.

Thats not what I am saying.....I am just saying that the apology to the exBS would ring hollow to me otherwise, IMO...I am not saying that she is not remorseful for what she has done...and I believe she should make her peace with God...and I dont think that she needs to divorce her H....But I think at this point an apology to the exBW is not acceptable.

Good point, it can't be erased either, and I can't ever forgive the insult done to me by any OMs my wife might have seduced either.

I also agree it is going to have to be between her and God, and this isn't like a "do-over", where all is forgotten and forgiven, and I don't think God will let her off the hook either.

Just like MB teachs, and recovered marriages know, what they used to take for granted, the love of thier partner, or what they percieved at the time as love, has changed through adultry. That blissful state of entitlement is gone forever, and replaced with the knowledge that they must work to maintain a good relationship.

If she is attempting to "fix" everything and make it all better now, of course that can't be done, but if she is just attempting to be accountable to another to seek peace with God, and not expecting forgiveness from her, then she should do it.

The wisdom of the posters telling her that to them it would be an insult and like rubbing it in thier face I totally understand also, some will feel that way, but others might welcome the confession, we don't know.

She did something despicable and selfish and has been party to the destruction of Gods institution on earth, if she wants to own up to it and take her lumps, its the least she can do.

But I agree the issue mainly resides between her and God, and if the BW and the children will be harmed in any way, she should keep it there.

I don't think anyone who will not call wrong right here to be attacking her, rather helping her. I don't think she beleives she can do anything to fix it, or make it right somehow. I hope it will humble her the rest of her days. But I don't believe she should crawl under a rock and reject forgiveness from God, and she should do what he tells us, to be accountable to those we offend.

There is no fixing this..thats obvious right?

Its really not up to me as a Christian to lay judgement on this woman.....That is in Gods hands...If it were up to me and my bitterness...I dont even recognize this as a legit "marriage"...but it is not up to me....I am just speaking in terms of an apology to the exBS, the subject of the original post....

And self-serving, wishing to be forgiven, right? My take at first also, and maybe so, but everyone who wants anything can be called selfish, when it comes from God.

Maybe I am way off in this, but is not protecting your marriage a selfish pursuit? Are we all not in some way selfish? Don't we fight for what we want and need? Isn't that also for ourselves?

If all good things come from God, then he must be in charge of forgivness too. In this case He will be the only one who she can appeal to for it, us humans just don't have that place anyway, and I don't think we are supposed to either.

ITA.

Especially when the original sin is still being committed....

I mean if I had stolen a car from someone and ask that person for forgiveness while I still drive around in it what is the point...But there is nothing wrong with asking God for forgiveness....

I personally have already posted that I agree with what MrsW said on the other thread about the couple separating until they both are repentant. So far that is what has made the most sense to me. Maybe the OP should just contact the Harleys directly. I don't see really the value in hashing this out here on this forum...since we all obviously aren't going to agree...

I also feel badly for the people who were triggered by the thread but then labeled bitter or unforgiving by some. I have a very close family friend who went through the exact same scenario as the xBW in this thread, but the A happened in '01 or '02. They are D'd and the OW and her WH married. She is still not personally recovered and remains in counseling...I KNOW that this thread would upset her so that's the POV I am coming from...

I still have dreams of putting a .22cal pill in the OMs head, and I would feel justified. But for some reason God prevented this. I imagine because of the children.

LIke I said before, OM did call and opologize, and what was strange, all I could still think about was WW getting sober at the time. But wanting him dead never has gone away, to me hes a worthless piece of human pond-scum, the world will be better off when he dies.

Possibly I have a different perspective because my wife has passed on, and I don't have to know that she is still a messed up and hurtful Wayward out there living large at my expense.

I am about moving on, not about getting married again either, nor am I worried about it. I just come here to help.

At the core of everyone I believe they need to submit to a higher authority and seek understanding to have a good life.

I would never want to be in the place this woman is, and imagine her only comfort will be from God.

OK. posted enough on this thread TTYallL

Wise words SQ

Even before the A was over, I was seeing God's hand in meting out justice.

About two weeks after Dday, WxW informed me that OM was going in to the hospital for prostate cancer surgery (do I have to tell anyone what the side-effects of this are?). This was not a lie, as the GPS I planted showed her spending an entire day and night at the hospital.

OM is a smoker, to boot. One of the last pieces of information I got before going dark in Plan B (and that she had started smoking) was that doctors had spotted something "suspicious" on one of his lungs.

Gee, why do *I* need to plot revenge...?

I literally thank God that in the first few weeks after Dday I did not see OW (actually still havent to this day) because I honestly dont know what I would have done, run her over maybe...anyway, prolly something that would have me in jail to this day....Thank God for small favors...

But it isn't. She isn't sinning. The marriage she helped destroy is just that--DESTROYED-it is gone. That marriage no long exists. Now she is married to the man and THAT marriage DOES exist. As well as the BW has married someone else and THAT marriage DOES exist.

I do agree that doesn't make it anyless painful for BW....her pain doesn't care that her XWH and this OW are married....they are married at BWs expense and so the pain continues for a long time. However, she may have a very happy life now and not be pained daily about how her first husband (and child) were stolen from her. And in light of the fact that OW and XWH are still together an apology would ring hollow no matter how sincere it really is.

@ stillhere8126

I believe NC is a Christian.
As a Christian, I believe she needs to follow God's lead in her desire to make amends with BW.
Whether or not BW is "receptive" to God's leading NC to make amends to her, is between BW & God...
NC needs to simply be obedient to God's leading "her"...
As a Christian & in reading Scripture, I use "The Inductive Bible Study Method". :

1. Observation~
http://www.walkwiththeword.org/Aids/HowTo/Inductive_2-Observation.html

2. Interpretation~
http://www.walkwiththeword.org/Aids/HowTo/Inductive_3-Interpretation.html

3. Application~
http://www.walkwiththeword.org/Aids/HowTo/Inductive_4-Application.html

In reading Scripture regarding divorce & remarriage, I have come to the understanding that:

1.When a H / W divorces their spouse, as long as they "both" remain unmarried, it is possible for their marriage to be restored.
Therefore, "remarriage" is an option.
2. Both spouses should remain "single".
Therefore, "remarriage" is an option.
3. If the "one" who divorced his/her spouse marries someone other than their "spouse", the marriage vows are "broken".
Therefore, "remarriage" is not an option.
4. If the "one" who was divorced marries someone other than their "spouse", the marriage vows are "broken".
Therefore, "remarriage" is not an option.
5. If "both" marry someone other than their "spouse", the marriage vows are "broken".
Therefore, "remarriage" is not an option.

Because NC & FWH married, FWH & BW's marriage vows were "broken".
Therefore, "remarriage" is not an option.
Because BW married someone other than her "spouse", the marriage vows were broken.
Therefore, "remarriage" is not an option.

I do not know if NC & FWH married first, or if BW & her 2nd H married first.
That is a moot point.
What is important, IMHO, is that once the marriage vows are broken (by whomever / for whatever reason), the accountability that was between the formerly covenanted H & W, shifts "to" their being accountable to God.
He has the "last" word in dealing His discipline to the "perpetrator(s)" of the "broken marriage vows".

If you are interested in reading Scripture that speaks of divorce & marriage, here are three links that may help.

http://www.jeremiahproject.com/culture/divorce.html

http://atgrace.org/uploads/pdf/unsorted/divorce_and_remarriage_policy_07.pdf

http://www.gotquestions.org/divorce-remarriage.html

Quote

How about the part where....You stop committing the sin!!!

EXCELLENT STATEMENT!
The ONLY person I can tell to "stop committing the sin!" is ME! God has chosen NOT to allow me to be His "Holy Spirit" so that I can tell "anyone" to "stop committing the (whatever) sin(s) they are committing!"
Luke 6:42 (New American Standard Bible)
"Or how can you say to your brother, 'Brother, let me take out the speck that is in your eye,' when you yourself do not see the log that is in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take out the speck that is in your brother's eye."

I am confident that the "specks" in NC & FWH's eyes will be taken care of by God... In His time... In His way...

Therefore, I will not presume to be their "Judge"...
Matthew 7:2 (New American Standard Bible)
"For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you." (The "You" = LoveIsaChoice4Me!)

YIKES! That scares ME! I positively do NOT want to be on the receiving end of the "standard of measure" I use in judging others...

God Bless

Ummmmm, thank you for the scriptures using your bible study method....I also believe that NC should make amends with the exBW....and I believe to truly make amends with her that she should not be still with the AP....otherwise its not a true apology....Jmho...

I dont think I am judging NC at all....but thank you for the Bible lesson anyway...Judging NC is only in Gods hands, not mine...as I have already stated...

And I know that the Bible states that the BW should not remarry either...thank you for clarifying that my lonliness will last a lifetime because my WH decided he loved another....That is why it is still just my DS and I after almost 4 years...and my WH gets to live it up with his AP...but his judgement will be with God and so will mine....

But the BW remarrying has nothing to do with NC still being with her AP and wanting to apologize to the ex BW....

I am aware that my mention of bitterness bothered some. I do not believe that everyone who disagrees with me is bitter. I am not so arrogant to think that in order for someone to be right that they must agree with me.....I don't know everything, not even close.

So I say what has been said to me on countless occasions: if one is not bitter, then my mention of bitterness was not intended for them and should not be taken as such. There are a handful of posters who are very bitter. They have been through great pain, and I cannot imagine how I would feel in that situation.

Telling the truth and disagreeing with someone is not bitterness. It's just being honest. Outside of cloning or a cult, there is no such thing as a group of people who are exactly alike in every way. I learn a lot from people who have a different opinion from me because it causes me to think about mine and evaluate.

I am sorry you think that. I do not see that in the Bible AT ALL. Adultery breaks the marriage bond and you are scripturally free to remarry someone else.

Adultery breaks the marriage bond and I am free to divorce....but remarry?...no...Sad, but that is the way I read it...please I would love to be convinced otherwise, truly.

'Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.� However, I say to you that everyone divorcing his wife, except on account of fornication, makes her a subject for adultery, and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.� (Mt 5:31,�32


Also, after telling the Pharisees that the Mosaic concession of divorcing their wives was not the arrangement that had prevailed �from the beginning,� Jesus said: �I say to you that whoever divorces his wife, except on the ground of fornication, and marries another commits adultery.� (Mt 19:8,�9)

These scriptures indicate the adultery severs the bond and you are free to remarry.

I am gonna have to crack open my Bible....I havent in a while...I dont know what scriptures convinced me that I couldnt remarry...but, goodness, this would change a lot for me....Thank you SW....

Originally Posted by stillhere8126

thank you for clarifying that my lonliness will last a lifetime because my WH decided he loved another....That is why it is still just my DS and I after almost 4 years...and my WH gets to live it up with his AP...but his judgement will be with God and so will mine....

But the BW remarrying has nothing to do with NC still being with her AP and wanting to apologize to the ex BW....

@ Stillhere ~
I am so sad that you are going through this...
What your WH & his AP are doing to you is indefensible!
Period!
Four years ~ Oh, My Gosh!
I see that you & WH are still married because you are still in Plan B?
Please help me understand how/why you have been in Plan B since 2008...
Do you believe your WH may change his mind about stopping his A?
If he changes his mind and tells you he wants to reconcile/restore your marriage, how will you feel?
Does Dr. H recommend Plan B for an indefinite period of time?
I hope you will read the scriptures I linked.
Adultery IS considered a legitimate reason for divorce.
Even if you divorced your H, scripture teaches that unless/until your xWH marries, you should remain single.
So that, if he remains single after divorce & comes to you and asks you to remarry him, you both will be free to do so.
Your marriage vows will NOT have been broken...
My H & I have known two couples in 35 years who divorced.
Stayed single for a period of time.
Dated other people.
And, after a period of time, as long as two years, remarried.
We also know one couple who went through the same process.
EXCEPT, both spouses, after divorce, married someone else.
Divorced AND, YUP!!!
Remarried after 6 years!!!
Can't wait to ask God about that one when I get to Heaven!
Maybe, sometimes, when a BS divorces a WS, it will cause the WS to finally wake up & realize that they CANNOT force the BS to agree to let them live two lives:
1. As a "married" spouse
AND
2. As an "adulterer"!
You are on my prayer list, Girlfriend!

What do you mean by this? That she would be better off to remain single? She is still free to remarry. (after she legally divorces him of course)

Well....I am still in Plan B to protect myself against the pain of seeing and/or speaking to him....I dont have any belief at this point that that the marriage will be saved, Plan B is just for me right now, not my so called "marriage". WH is still with OW...I dont think he will ever change his mind....

I will divorce him when I am ready to go through with it, emotionally...I dont know when that will be.

Thanks...always need the prayers...

Originally Posted by SmilingWoman

Originally Posted by LoveIsaChoice4Me

Adultery IS considered a legitimate reason for divorce.
Even if you divorced your H, scripture teaches that unless/until your xWH marries, you should remain single.

What do you mean by this? That she would be better off to remain single? She is still free to remarry. (after she legally divorces him of course)

Hi, SW ~
I just saw your post...
I am going to dig up the scriptures I've read and share them...
Just need a little time...
I'll be back!
God Bless ~

I just wanted to weigh in on what DrH MAY feel about this topic. I have read most of the content on this site and(not being as good as ML to find it quickly) I remember reading that DrH would advise a man, who was married to his OW, that he would be happier to D his OW and remarry his xBW.

I know that DrH will try to help any marriage, he has stated that he hasn't had any success in saving an affairage though, due to the shaky foundation that the relationship started on.

I also had the same questions about an OW in an affairage being a FOW. Thanx for bringing it up Still.

I remember reading that too. However, I do not believe that is scriptural. If neither were remarried yet, then sure...restore the family if the BS is willing. But if either BS or WS has remarried all bets are off...it is a REAL marriage with REAL biblical rules applying.


I wondered about this too....I think the way this board works she would still be an OW. But I guess it is a small point.

SW, I wasn't talking about Biblical "thumbs up." I was touching on a point that was made about what DrH would believe, we would also believe(on this site). Although, I DO believe that we are entitled to our OWN opinions on this site, within reason of course.

I am NOT suggesting that NC D her WH to allow him to remarry his XBW. I doubt the XBW would want him back anyways. And seeing as NC's WH has committed adultery in THIS marriage, would it not stand to reason that NC would NOT be sinning if she were to D him?

NC, I haven't seen a response to my question, "Have you told your children about the A that YOU had?"

another thing...I recently heard dr h on his radio show stressing the importance of NC between a BH and the OM who was living w/ the xWW. I really would advise the OP to call the radio show or the coaching center befor making contact w the xBW despite all the advise to apologize...

Sorry for mistakes, this is a cell phone post.

another thing...I recently heard dr h on his radio show stressing the importance of NC between a BH and the OM who was living w/ the xWW. I really would advise the OP to call the radio show or the coaching center befor making contact w the xBW despite all the advise to apologize...

Sorry for mistakes, this is a cell phone post.

Hi Scotland,

No, I have not told my children yet of my affair. Honestly I have been avoiding posting here since I saw you asked the question because I wanted to be able to tell you truthfully that I had. I don't want you to think that I have started all this debate and then just walked away though so here I am.

My son is grown and lives on his own and I haven't been able to schedule a time to sit down with him yet and don't feel this is a phone conversation. My daughter has a friend in town that she has not seen in a long while and I don't think telling her in front of her friend would be a good idea. It may be a good lesson for her friend, but would likely humiliate my daughter as I am certain she is going to be very unhappy with me.

That said I do have every intention of telling them. I actually had a bad dream about it this weekend. Ugh. Price you pay when you mess up! Friend leaves to go home tomorrow, my daughter spends Tuesday nights with my husband so I will sit her down Wednesday evening after school to talk with her. With any luck I can get my son to join us so that I don't have to do this twice.

The anticipation of the conversation makes me naseous. But, I am trying really hard to take to heart what I am learning here and know you all are right that it must be done. I will update when I have had the conversation.

As far as whether to reconcile with my husband or divorce, I am as conflicted as the members on this board are so I have no update on that front.

I do believe that I will not post to anyone else's thread again. I have only done so a couple of times but it has been pointed out to me that I am too tainted to possibly be of help. I don't want to be a trigger or a hinderance so I will NOT be doing that again.

As for the question of whether an OW becomes a FOW if she marries her AP... in my opinion absolutely not. Deep down I have never felt like anything other than the OW. I think it is a title I will likely keep in most peoples eyes as long as I stay in my marriage. Again, price you pay.

NC

Thank you for taking the time to respond and I hope that you WILL talk to your children about what you did. There WILL be anger. There WILL be hurt. I believe that it is important for them to KNOW what has happened, they may already know though.

You were already D from your 1st H when you met your WH right?

Yes, I was. My divorce was final before I met my WH.

I don't remember reading the details of your current seperation....if he has committed adultery AGAIN, I would think you would be done with him--realizing that he is not husband material. especially as you feel he really has no true remorse for the damage he was part of.

I would not divorce your current husband in some sort of effort to 'right the wrong' you did years ago. That is a wrong you can never right unfortunately. However I do believe that if you end up divorcing your husnand you will be able to move on and find a peace by being out of that relationship that will never be 'right'.

I wish you peace either way.

One thought that came to me over the weekend that I feel the need to share is about exposure.

I do not know if the BW in my case knew about this site. Some of the stuff she did seems right on but a lot of it doesn't so I am unsure. She did however call my parents, and tell our coworkers, boss, and anyone she knew that WH knew in the state we were living. It did cause us both to lose our jobs. Me within a couple of months and him within a year.

My parents didn't really believe her, as I didn't at first, but the thought that occured to me this weekend is that if she had reached my grandma she would have blown us to kingdom come. My grandma was the sweetest, kindess, most wonderful woman in the world and also the most devout follower of Jesus I have ever seen.

If she had been told I was dating a married man I would have died a million times over for shame at her reaction. Her disappointment in me would have been unbearable. I have no good answer for why I didn't think of that then, or why knowing that didn't stop me then. I guess I just never thought she would know any of the sordid details.

My point is that exposure really could be powerful. I have read a lot of threads where the BS is afraid of exposure and unsure how far and wide it should go, but if anyone is interested in my perspective from the OW side, go three steps farther than you think you can or is necessary.

It just takes reaching that one right person, and you never know who that is going to be.

NC

Smiling Woman, thank you. And I apologize for posting on your thread about your son's visitation. I should have realized that would be offensive. I am sorry.

As far as divorcing my husband, I have forgiven him for his adultery in our marriage. Some have suggested that it is my biblical "out" of this marriage. Thing is I don't want to divorce him for the adultery. If I do, it is going to be because I can't reconcile the marriage with my attempt to "sin no more". I think that God would know the real reason so using his adultery as my excuse doesn't really feel like a good idea. And, like I said I am as conflicted as the posters here. I can see both sides, and both sides seem to have scripture to back them. Really, I just want to crawl under my bed and live there. :-) JK

NC

Originally Posted by SmilingWoman

Originally Posted by LoveIsaChoice4Me

Adultery IS considered a legitimate reason for divorce.
Even if you divorced your H, scripture teaches that unless/until your xWH marries, you should remain single.

What do you mean by this? That she would be better off to remain single? She is still free to remarry. (after she legally divorces him of course)

Hi, SW ~
Okay!
I'm Back...
In my absence, I shared with my H our discussion regarding this thread...
H reminded me that when we attended a church in the Dallas area many years ago, we studied this subject in our SS class...
What we learned was that YES! In regard to adultery, the BS has legitimate grounds to divorce AND remarry!
Any"Time" ~ Any"Where"
Period!

In our SS class at this particular church, we were told that:
1. When a WS commits adultery, the marriage vows are "broken"!
2. The broken marriage vows stand a "better chance" of being "restored" IF neither spouse remarries!
3. If a "member" of the church seeks divorce for adultery, the elders of the church "encourage" the BS to "consider" remaining single SO THAT the WS may be given an "opportunity" to change their mind (repent).
AND
4. If a WS repents, the elders encourage the BS to allow him/her to come back into the marriage.
5. This is where much counseling is required for both spouses.

The church we attended is a very Conservative, Biblically-Based, Fundamental, Evangelical Bible Church. The pastor & leadership at this church either teach @ or graduated from DTS. H & I trust their philosophy of ministry because of their adherence to scriptural principles.
More importantly, this church exudes & encourages "Grace"!

This is the process the church we attended uses in cases of divorce when adultery is the motivating factor.
NOT SCRIPTURE!

So, you are right! If,in the case of A, a BS chooses to divorce and remarry, the BS is well within their prerogative to do just that!

I STAND SOOOOOOOOOO CORRECTED!
Thank you for your gentle rebuke!
I needed that!!!!!
God Bless ~

Well, thank you....this makes everything different for me...As I was reading the Bible just now though...I still see some stuff that says I shouldnt remarry or at least that is how I interpret it...I guess I will just have to do a lot of praying, but right now I am not worried about it for me, because I know that I am not ready for a new relationship now anyway...but thank you for posting this Loveisachoice....

Actually, Stillhere, what scripture teaches is:
You ARE free to do whatever YOU choose!

IF you choose to divorce, that does NOT mean that you must seek out or enter into a new relationship!
It just means that you are "free" to choose for yourself what YOU want to do!
That's all...

God Bless ~

I know....I eventually, someday, would like to have a relationship....but i just cant seem to reconcile that with how I interpret the Bible readings....Maybe its Gods way of letting me know that I am just not ready yet and when the time comes he will let me know then too....

It's good that you recognize that you cannot imagine how you would feel in the same situation because truly, it often feels unbearable. You have NO IDEA.

IMHO it might be wise to not accuse others of being "bitter". Why not call them "hurt"? You seem to acknowledge that they are bitter because they are hurt ~ yet bitter has an ugly overtone while hurt does not.

You have no idea the continued pain BSs go through, even while in a great recovery...NONE. To accuse those who are hurting so badly that they come across as "bitter" is incredibly unempathetic. It's an unnecessary term, one that is used a lot in your posts. It's not helpful and only causes others to be defensive. And then in the next post there will be complaints about being "attacked" for calling others bitter.

Please think about this.

How can it be a "real marriage" when one or both of the spouse's were married when the A started? Doesn't that in and of itself prevent it from being a legitimate marriage at least in God's eyes?

Legally it may be "real" but in God's eyes ~ no way.

Yeah...I agree...

But I am bitter...so what do I know?

I think this makes the most sense to me from all of the suggestions I have heard so far. ITA.

Again, I am not calling any person bitter. And though bitterness has a negative connotation....I think most people who have gone through pain, especially pain that was inflicted on them for no good reason, struggle with it.

But I do agree that labeling people and calling names is never productive. I know that being called wayward and having my children's heritage questioned years after the fact did absolutely nothing to improve the state of my M. That's why I don't listen to it anymore.

And now it is time for me to remember what I learned so effectively over Christmas and step back.

ITA. I couldn't articulate it other than to say I felt the use of the term bitter was uncalled for but you nailed it...

Interesting that you always seem to run away when anyone points out that what you are saying to those who have been terribly HURT might be hurtful.
'
You are accusing others of being bitter and you admit it has a negative connotation. And now you run away because someone points that out to you?

Self-reflection is never a bad thing, luri...and running away isn't going to help as it's not going to change anything. You cannot run away from "you"....

I have spent much of my life, especially the past few years, self-reflecting, a fact that most people acknowledge....as long as I steer clear of certain things. I am not running away. I just know that after a certain point it no longer becomes about the statement I made. I am not bitter about that; it is a fact of life that people don't always agree and that different people handle disagreement differently.

It is possible that bitter was to loaded a word. I was reacting to the remorse I sensed in the OP that seemed very sincere and then reading some very harsh words that seemed to go beyond hurt and into more of a personal attack. I thought that NC was sincere in wanting help, and I wanted to encourage her to keep posting and listening, letting her know that she will encounter (not just on forums but in real life too) people who will assume that she is....forever failed because she chose to have an A. It's part of the fallout from such a choice. There are people who feel that way about me. And for a long time I took perfectly good time and energy away from my M to try to convince people that I was "really changed," people who really have no connection to my life or family.

When a WW comes to me IRL or on a forum and all they want to do is justify.....I have no patience for that. But if someone is really remorseful, really wanting advice about doing the right thing....I want to help. I want them to be able to find what DH and I have found....yes, both of us. Because his love for me eclipsed his anger at me long ago, and it is a wonderful feeling.

There is a true story about a former Jew who lost his family to the Nazis.

After the war he was hunting these people, and when he found one, hiding in the hills, he informed the officials who would bring him to justice and hang him, and told them where he was.

The Jewish man on the evening that the officials were coming to get the man posed as a reporter and went to the mans house to interview him. He wanted to see him squirm when they came, and make sure he was there.

The Nazi broke into tears, and the Reporter found the man so repentant after hours of questions and interview, he had a change of heart. He told the former Nazi about the men coming to take him away and hang him, and implored him to flee.

The Nazi said to him, "On one condition, forgive me". The Jewish reporter could not say the words, he could not do it, he had devoted his life and it was now his passion to seek justice. It was who he was now. The officials came and the took the Nazi away and hung the Man.

Heard the story from Dr. David Jerimiah, and it was pretty powerful to me. It also shows the damage sin has spread over many people, even the victims.

It seems to me that God would have more compassion on us feeble and weak people than we would, and that he can exact justice better and more unilateraly than we can also.

NCs sin has found her out, and the now two-time champ of Waywards her WH, who professes to be somekinda part-time Christian, has taken Gods Grace as a lisense to Sin again. as far as I can see, he lives in Hell on earth, with No God except one he makes up as he goes along. I wonder how that is working for him? We may think he is getting away with something, but it is probably more true that his selfish pursuits loses him the peace he would have if he submitted to Gods authority. He is his own God, and like in Shellys Frankenstien, when he looked at the Doctor and told him about the family he used to listen talk about God and pray and praise God, he wanted to die beacuse The Doctor was his creator.

I thank you for the courage you have shown coming here NC, and I am sorry if you don't feel like you can post. I for one do not believe God has less compassion than mankind, and according to the mosaic law, he made a concession for the hardness of mans heart in divorce, and wants us all to be reconciled unto him and each other, and I believe in that order also.

That doesn't mean we have to forgive or even that we have the ability to, or that it is wise to try and take on that mantle, if we learn anything in this life, we should know God is more loving and powerful than we are.

Niether do I think that he would promise us peace and restoration and not be allready planning to give us foolish sinners it.

On this board the plans to protect marriages are discussed simply and plainly, and I stand completly by them, and part of the restoration is the forgivness spouse show when a wayward humbly repents and come home to work on the marriage. I stand for that also, when it can be given, when the pain has been assuaged.

You are going where most people should have started, to God, to find out and search what love is, and how to apply it to your brothers and sisters. How many realize that the vows they took to love and cherish in front of God were more important to them than the love they were recieving from their spouse? How many of us knew what we were getting into, that God made this institution to further his plan to teach us his Grace? I can agree that I was not ready for the marriage I had, but I made my commitment to God more than to my wife, I think that is what has kept me sane and provided more than anything she could have done anyway. There is no perfect soulmate here, and everything we have together is because of God, he is first and foremost and should allways stay that way. In a marriage both should be agreed on that, and be willing to keep it that way, for the rest of our lives.

I hope you stick around and glean the knowledge of this board, and help with the mindgames Waywards are trying to sell the BSs, so you can be completly transparent with your Kids, and anyone else you want to spare pain. I think God would be happy with that.

Are you reading the old or new testement? The old was Gods law, which He/Christ fulfilled on the Cross. What did Jesus say about it?

I will have to look again...I am no Bible expert, by any means....but offhand one was Pauls letter to the Corinthians..according to Paul you can separate but not remarry. New Testament, Right?

You are right though I will read more....esp the Old Testament.

I seem to remember something about a man who marries the divorced woman commits adultery....was that Jesus....IDK....Back to the Bible....

Lol, "Back to the Bible" is a Christian radio show name too.

I will have to look up Pauls letter, and see if he was quoting the law for example, or supporting it. But yes it is New Testiment.

Paul said something that I can apply to myself now,..


I can't find the verse to quote, but I will do my best to paraphrase.

"It is better that a man not take a wife, because he will be consumed with the concerns for his wife if he takes one. but if he has no wife, he can be concerned then with the things of God"

Again it is not perfectly quoted, and much still be lost in translation even if it was.

I find I am in that place seeking Gods wisdom and guidance more than I was when I was married, where I was seeking his intervention, and desparetly holding on and staying as strong as I could. My ability to endure worked against me accually, as I had a marriage at any cost in my mind.

If I had come here then, the 2x4s would be worn down to toothpicks, as I was a great enabler, and allowed myself to be nuetered. But I wish I had come here long ago, for everyones sake.

I guess we will have to disagree on this point. It is real because it exists. The previous marriage no longer exists making the new marriage valid.

Yours is an intriguing question, and I hope you do right. I admit I have not read that much of your thread, but just wanted to offer you my view.

I know why you are asking this, but in my ho the answer lies in your relationship with your God. Period. A lot of bible references here, but they are meaningless in my opinion, unless you practice what is in your gut and your heart. I am catholic, okay, and yea I hear the Word, the Scripture, and that is a guide. You may think I am nuts, but what means more to me is Christ or Mary talking to me daily. Ya know, it is like a subtle voice deep down, and you can't get at peace umless you listen. So, if you have a doubt or uncertaintly in terms of spologizing to the OW, then listen to your heart and I think you will learn that you should apolosgize. It's call conscience - His voice.

*edit

You do what you want, but if you have the opportunity to face the pain of disclosure, and offer the offended party an explanation, then you have to look in your heart for the answer, and not put that qustion on a forum!

I wish you the best in making the right decision,

Tom

Oh Still, I forgot to mention two things.

1) If Jesus didn't say it, then I don't really put a lot of stock in it.

2) Your reading the Old testement, which is filled with Gods law, which is just, but God came to earth as a man and died to fufill that law which we cannot satisfy.(New testement)

The people asked for Gods law believing they could fufill it,(Ten commandments) and found out they couldn't, but still believe they are righteous if they keep a tab on how many they fill., (religion). Christ hated religion, because he wanted us to seek Him/God over the weak attempts of man to understand the beginning from the end.

Its interesting that when Mose brought the commandments down the first time to show them to the people, that he never made it to the bottom, because if man was to be judged right then by the Law of God, they would have all died. The second time Moses brought them down, he immediatly put them in the arc of the covenent, which was covered by the mercy seat.

Ok I am am not a scholar, and am not handing out this weeks lessons, and feel like I am being preachy here. I wish mans desire for relationship in the garden of Eden, (Blamed on the woman, but IMO the desire for relationship is present in both sexes, just stronger in woman), had not caused Man to eat of the tree of Knowledge of good and evil. But now we are stuck with it, and the judgements we must make.

May his mercy reign..

Hi Still,

t/j

Wow, I just want to say that this is the first time in like a long time that I have seen one of your posts.

It is sort of funny, but you do get impressions of people online. That is, the Internet can be misleading at times because anyone can post anything or represent themselves as anything on it. I think we are all aclimated to that.

But, on your behalf you simply come across as an honest and very sincere soul, and I wish so much the best for you.

I just had to sort of smile as I post this, because I remember way back almost like a year ago telling you about my interview with Lombardi way back when I was in college. I think at the time I gave you a website add that your son might enjoy about Lombardi, in terms of his values and philosophy. I hope that was of some value because I realize that it is so damned hard for any parent to raise their kids today (probably was true to a certain extent when I was a teen and used to try to sneak out of the house like at midnight to try to get with my 'wayward' friends and my gf....*s*... Oh so long ago.

Just best wishes Still...

Tom

Still,

by the way again, another reason I brought up Lombardi is of course because my team - Green Bay - won the Super Bowl. And would you believe my son is a Chicago Bears fan. Go figure, you try to raise them right and they go wrong...*s*

Tom

Me too Tom..

Thanks MF...well said.

Hi Constant,

another t/j

"Christ hated religion,..."

Mmm, I don't believe He hated 'religion'. Christ was not capable of hating. I believe He was and still is concerned about organized faith - whether Jewish, Christian, or any other faith - being misinterpreted or standing in the way of the intimate relationship that He wants with every soul! Organized faith - whether the Jewish code and faith, the Catholic Church, or any other, is intended to be a conduit to that intimate relationship.

It is sort of like the gift of marriage. Yes, marriage is defined in human terms - the code of laws regarding common property, parental rights, etc., but it is much more. It is the gift to realize a totally intimate relationship with another person (soul). I know this would sound pretty stupid if I were age 22 saying this...but I am age 68 saying this. This intimate relationship should have room for a third person - always. Of course that third is God, Christ, a higher power, or however you define. Thru that triad, we would realize the intimate realtionship that God wants from each of us. Marriage is a gift to us of that magical and wonderous intimate relationship that God wants each of us to have with One other person, as well as with Him.

Just my thoughts...

Tom

With ya Tom,

Two together with Christ,

Ecclesiastes 4:12
And if one prevail against him, two shall withstand him; and a threefold cord is not quickly broken.

Him=(Satan)

Of course that is Old Testament, but the promise of a deliverer was all through the Old testament.

I see all kinds of reference like you said about how he hated the the practice as you have described above clearly. As far as Him hating things, I know he never hates us, but I was talking about what you said, when I used the word Hate.

So off to find what he said about religion again, to refresh my memory.

Good post Tom

Hi again Still...

This is such a thought-provoking thread. I realize that I am thread-jacking here, and probably not offering much at all in way of comfort or encouragement to the author of the thread.

It is interesting tho Still, your reference to confession. Yes, I suppose confessing does ease some guilt, but, and this is just simply my view per my faith, true reconciliation with God and the restoration of the intimate relationship with Him cannot occur without first reconciling with the person harmed. I.e., the purest level of O&H should exist with God. If there is something held back, hidden, or minimized for the sake of our comfort or supposedly for the sake of 'protecting' another person the O&H is not restored. I can't qoute a new or old testament statement to specifically back that up, but it is just a general understanding based on my specific faith and my own personal feeling of a sort of emptiness over the lack of true reconciliation. I think as far as any kind of testament reference it would be Christ explaining to the Pharasees something like if you come to the altar with your gift, and you realize your brother (sister) has something against you, first go and reconcile with him (her), and then offer your gift.

And to Constant, all I can say is again you seem very wise, and I don't say that lightly. One thing I have realized from participating here over the last ten months or so is that so many people - here I am referring to the people who seem to come for help but just flit in and out of here, and even those people who never heard of this site but ones you read or hear about (celebreties, polititians, acqaintances etc.) - seem to take marriage so lightly and do not seem to realize the sanctity and permanence of their marital relationship! Again, this is my own personal and narrow opinion. And, believe me I have been one of those - one of the biggest offenders in terms of Char, short of me having an affair, but there are many other ways to transgress on this sacrad relationship, which I have been guilty of.

Awhile back I went to confession, and one of my sins that I stated to the priest was how I had avoided visiting Char or having her here for a short period of time last year. I just became selfish and tried to avoid the effort of dealing with her. She was complaining alot at that time, but that gave me no excuse to not go out of my way to comfort her for the sake of my own comfort. The priest talked with me for awhile and told me something that I honestly had never been told before and kind of flies in the face of social beliefs. I think deep down I did realize this, but he told me she is your wife forever! That honestly blew my socks off. He meant not just in this life, but in the next. When I was late teens I was in the seminary and studying for the priesthood. I knew damn well then that the vows a man takes upon ordination are forever. It is a sacrament in my faith. Again my own narrow view. I know now that the vows I made in marriage to Char are forever as well, not just here but eternity. I am speaking of the sacrad and intimate relationship. Yeah, I know, death, divorce, etc., can end the physical relationship, but those can never end the intended intimate spiritual relationship.

Well, long winded myself here..*s*

Tom

Originally Posted by Tom2010

Hi again Still...
...It is interesting tho Still, your reference to confession. Yes, I suppose confessing does ease some guilt, but, and this is just simply my view per my faith, true reconciliation with God and the restoration of the intimate relationship with Him cannot occur without first reconciling with the person harmed. I.e., the purest level of O&H should exist with God. If there is something held back, hidden, or minimized for the sake of our comfort or supposedly for the sake of 'protecting' another person the O&H is not restored. I can't qoute a new or old testament statement to specifically back that up, but it is just a general understanding based on my specific faith and my own personal feeling of a sort of emptiness over the lack of true reconciliation...
Tom

Wow!
Between you, Tom, & Constant ~
Well, let's just say that I am so very grateful to read your thoughts, feelings & beliefs!
When I read this part of your post, Tom, I remembered Jesus' words:

Matthew 5:37 (New King James Version)
"But let your �Yes� be �Yes,� and your �No,� �No.� For whatever is more than these is from the evil one."

When I confess my sins, I have two choices:
I must either
Acknowledge my sin (Agree with God)
OR
Deny it. (Disagree with God)
God does not allow me to be "lukewarm"!

Revelation 3:16 (New King James Version)
"So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot,[a] I will vomit you out of My mouth."

The same is true when I sin against someone with skin on!
When I "feel" that "twinge" of guilt in my gut, I know exactly what that means!!!!!
Humbling myself before God & those I have sinned against goes against every fiber of my being!
YUCK! I hate the taste of "Humble Pie"!!!
Yet, I KNOW what God "expects" of me...
A funny thing happens when I humble myself in my confession before God's throne of love, mercy, grace & compassion...
He restores me in my right relationship with Him...
Sadly, sometimes, the people with skin on, whom I seek forgiveness from, refuse to extend their forgiveness...
It is only then that I crawl up on my Daddy's lap and cry!
He assures me that He will take care of the person who withheld their forgiveness...
I have done what He expected of me...
My job is "done"...
The rest lies with Him...
I just love the fact that God has such a sweet sense of humor!
It's like, He's sitting up there on his throne with a big smile on His face, looking down @ me...
In my frustration of not receiving someone's forgiveness, He's just sitting there, knowing:
"LIAC4M" simply needs to "let go" of trying to be in control of other people!!! Goodness! Look how frustrated she is! But it's okay! Sooner or later, she'll 'get it'! I AM STILL IN CONTROL!"

Thanks & God bless

It seems like you believe in the Blue Eyed Breck Girl kind of Jesus that really didn't exist.

You say Christ was incapable of hate. Yet I believe that in many cases we are told that God hates sin, hates certain attitudes, etc. If you believe in the trinity and that Jesus is God incarnate, then your statement does not stand logically.

Jesus wasn't some sort of Lamb Carrying, smiling nice guy. Jesus was a very rough, no-nonsense guy.

Some examples:




So right there from Jesus, we learn that we are to Love God and Hate the ways of the world. Since Jesus would not tell us to sin, hate itself is not a sin. Now certain manifestations of hate would be sinful, such as hating good, loving evil. But hate itself is not necessarily a sin.


Seems pretty clear God hates sin and is willing to punish those who are engaged in unrepentant sin.

Jesus didn't always speak in a gentle fashion. Look at how he called the Pharisees whitewashed tombs and broods of vipers, etc. That's the example of hating religion. It's not that Jesus hated God, he hated how mankind has perverted religion.

See Zechariah 8:17, God clearly says he hates certain behaviors. Since God cannot sin, hate is valid in some circumstances.

I can't recall the scripture where God says he hates the way folks were practicing religion and how he hated how the Pharisees were oppressing the people with their rules and laws, missing out on what God wanted which was a people who loved Him.

We are not to hate people, and if you had said it's a sin to hate people, then I'd agree. However, your words said Jesus cannot hate (and I presume you mean that to mean hate is a sin), and clearly that is not true in all cases since God says He hates certain things.

Therefore, God and by extension Jesus can indeed hate and therefore, hate alone cannot be a sin.

Now I would agree that Jesus could not harbor a sinful hate, but is indeed capable of hate.

I think your priest gets it wrong with respect to being married forever. We are told that in the Kingdom of Heaven, there is no male, nor female, neither slave nor free. - Galatians 3, IIRC.

Since heaven is about worshiping God, it doesn't seem as if having a spouse is consistent with what I understand about heaven.

The wonderful thing about Jesus....He is perfect. The perfect balance of justice and mercy. The perfect balance of grace and holiness.

People, not so much....we have our bents in certain directions, and we generally don't tolerate those who bend a slightly different way. I'm not talking sin here....sin is sin. I'm talking the subtleties that makes US comfortable.

Jesus didn't mind making others uncomfortable....he also offered quite a bit of comfort. Jesus didn't cast a stone at the adulterous woman. He also told her to go and sin no more.

And as far as forgiveness goes, only Christ can wipe out the debt of our sin......and yet when he taught his disciples to pray, he said "forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors." Jesus isn't permissive, and He isn't legalistic. And since the term Christian means we are to be like Him.....we have quite a daunting task.

I don't remember that part; I remember that they freaked out when God started speaking from the mountain and begged not to hear His voice any more and begged Him to speak privately to Moses instead.

Sorry, I'm probably sidetracking majorly.

Jesus had a complete understanding of contrasts, and knew that he couldn't explain 'lightness' unless his listeners understood the concept of 'darkness.' Making his listeners uncomfortable was necessary, in order for them to understand the difference between that and comfort.

Just my thoughts.

You are right, bitter is too loaded of a word. It's not helpful.

NC doesn't seem to have a problem with being "attacked" ~ it appears to me that she knows she DESERVES it. She is ok with it and has never defended her actions. Why does it bother you so much?

The new M sure existed when the "new marriage" (ie, affairage) happened though...I bet the BW would sure argue that point.

The old marriage desisted ONLY by the law of the land ~ NOT in God's eyes. God did not sanction the ending of that M, IMO.

I will make sure not to use bitter again. I know it is a trigger, just as there are things that trigger me. I also know NC sincerely wants help in her situation, and I don't want to detract from that.

And I agree, maritalbliss. Jesus sees clearly as the Father sees. I look forward to the day we will (I John 3:2)

NC, I hope you will not lose your nerve about exposing your sin to your children.

Do your children know about the A that your WH committed against you?

I don't understand what you are saying. The new M existed when the new marriage happened?


I beg to differ here. Adultery is grounds for ending a marriage in God's eyes according to scripture.

In Gods eyes...NC and exWH marriage is not valid....They are the adulterers...

I do not believe that is back up by scripture. Yes, they WERE adulterers when they were sleeping with each other when he was married to someone else. THAT marriage is over. His first wife divorced him (with scriptural grounds). That marriage no longer exists and so therefore the WH and NC (OW) are no longer committing adultery. Do they still have to answer to God for their sin of previous adultery? Yes. But that is a seperate issue from their marriage being valid now.

David had Bathsheba's husband killed so he could be with her....does that mean his marriage to her was invalid?

The wayward cannot remarry...Bathshebas husband was dead...

In Gods eyes you cannot be a wayward then marry your AP...I mean you can legally, but that Affairage will not be valid, in Gods eyes....I mean would that really make any sense....I, at this point, dont even really believe that I can remarry....I absolutely believe that the AP's cannot....

The way I interpret the Bible....The BW and WH are bound together forever...and if there is infidelity then the betrayed can divorce the Wayward and not have to act as a spouse should, but cannot remarry....Both are not supposed to remarry. That is just my interpretation....Only death can be a reason to remarry.

That is just not backed up by scripture. If the marriage is over it is over. Whether by death or adultery the marriage is over.

Well that is the way you interpret the scriptures....I dont see them that way...

I don't understand your question.



Right ~ adultery is GROUNDS for D but it is not MANDATORY to D if adultery is involved.

So what if the BW did not want the D...what if she dragged her feet and begged her WH to change his mind, right up until the last minute. Would God sanction this D then? I believe not.

I believe that God HATES D, no matter what, even when there are "grounds" for D.


God DID join them together and no one has the "right" to un-join them, much less an affair partner. IMHO that is.

Not according to this website/biblical scholar: http://www.familyradio.com/graphical/literature/joined/joined_06.html

This is the "beauty" of scripture, LOL...it can be interpreted so many different ways.

Where does the bible say that a M is "over" if there is adultery?

In pauls letter to the Corinthian it states...

10 But to the married I give instructions, not I, but the Lord, that the wife should not leave her husband 11 (but if she does leave, she must remain unmarried, or else be reconciled to her husband), and that the husband should not divorce his wife. 12 But to the rest I say, not the Lord, that if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she consents to live with him, he must not divorce her. 13 And a woman who has an unbelieving husband, and he consents to live with her, she must not send her husband away. 14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified through her believing husband; for otherwise your children are unclean, but now they are holy. 15 Yet if the unbelieving one leaves, let him leave; the brother or the sister is not under bondage in such cases, but God has called us to peace. 16 For how do you know, O wife, whether you will save your husband? Or how do you know, O husband, whether you will save your wife?

My interpretation is that if the BH or BW does leave the M....They cannot remarry. JMHO

My question was 'Was David's marriage to Bathesheba invalid since their relationship began as adultery?' Yes, her BH was dead...because her adultery partner had him killed!

I seriously doubt that the theological questions being debated in this thread can come to a final resolution here in this thread. Some of this has been debated for centuries by hundreds of scholars.

Best to try to understand opposing points of view and be as well informed as possible as to the justification for those views, IMO.

Yes, but the above passage is not discussing adultery. In other passages in the Bible it offers that exception. Adultery CAN sever the bond of marriage. Breaks the vow.

Exactly...It doesnt...It does say the the BS can divorce...Only in the case of adultery...but never remarry...I believe that the divorce is only if the wayward is refusing to end the affair...this way the betrayed does not have to keep acting as the spouse to a continuing adulterer....not so they can remarry.

Scripture please? Or is this an interpretation?

Sigh. If I said it IS over I am sorry. The Bible says that adultery is GROUNDS for the marriage to end. Of course a BS can forgive the adultery and the marriage will still be valid.

Yes...But it does not clear the way for remarriage...

Matthew 5:32; 19:9

Matthew

19&#8194;Now when Jesus had finished these words, he departed from Gal&#8242;i&#8231;lee and came to the frontiers of Ju&#8231;de&#8242;a across the Jordan. 2�Also, great crowds followed him, and he cured them there.
3�And Pharisees came up to him, intent on tempting him and saying: �Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife on every sort of ground?� 4�In reply he said: �Did YOU not read that he who created them from [the] beginning made them male and female 5�and said, �For this reason a man will leave his father and his mother and will stick to his wife, and the two will be one flesh�? 6�So that they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore, what God has yoked together let no man put apart.� 7�They said to him: �Why, then, did Moses prescribe giving a certificate of dismissal and divorcing her?� 8�He said to them: �Moses, out of regard for YOUR hardheartedness, made the concession to YOU of divorcing YOUR wives, but such has not been the case from [the] beginning. 9�I say to YOU that whoever divorces his wife, except on the ground of fornication, and marries another commits adultery.�


(Red hilighting mine)

Divorce and remarriage is such a complex subject. I have a dear friend who married a man who turned out to be a terrible abuser. She went to her pastor a couple of times and was told to pray and submit. After a particularly bad round, she was "encouraged" down some stairs and a few days later had a D&C for a miscarriage while her H played golf. He didn't feel the need to go to the hospital because "he didn't want it anyway." Another dear friend of mine married a man who came out as a homosexual after their son was born. He refused to change his lifestyle and was arrested several times for picking up men and boys at a local park.

Both of these women left their husbands. Both have since remarried. And according to certain views of Scripture, both are adulteresses. Some may say: "but that's different." No it isn't. Not if we hold to the strict interpretation. My two godly, sweet, humble friends who have been through pain I cannot imagine......

are adulteresses.

I reposted your words....I didn't understand what you posted...

SW...Where does it say the adultery partners can remarry?...That might be a good one for the Betrayed to remarry....but doesnt even convince me of that

I think this part is key:

�Moses, out of regard for YOUR hardheartedness, made the concession to YOU of divorcing YOUR wives, but such has not been the case from [the] beginning.

Only out of our own hardheartedness has this been "permitted". Far from ideal.

In the case of the homosexual WH....adultery does not have to be with an opposite sex. She was freed by his adultery with other men.

The abused wife? She certainly would not be expected to stay with the man who abused her....but she would not be free to remarry until such time he freed her. And probably a man like that would free her.

Ha, funny...it was ME who was mistaken.

I meant "The OLD M sure existed when the "new marriage" (ie, affairage) happened [/color]though...I bet the BW would sure argue that point.

Correction in bold.

It is sad...Life is very unfair...but God did not promise us all perfect lives...My WH is an adulterer...Maybe it is my punishment for fornicating before my M with him...who knows...We all have our burdens to bear.

I agree, not ideal. Not what God intended and not what he wants. He does hate divorcing. And in the first part of the passage above the discussion was about divorcing a wife for 'any sort of grounds.' The exception of adultery was at the end of the passage.

Once the marriage is over (due to death or adultery) they are free. If a BS wanted to forgive and save the marriage then the WS would NOT be free. At that point the WS marrying ANYONE would be wrong.....but nonetheless that act of marrying would certainly sever the original betrayed marriage and create a new marriage.

I dont see where is says that at all...Not for the APs, esp...

Bad things are not from God. Bad consequences come from not following Divine instructions, but you aren't being 'punished' by God.

Maybe you think you need punishment though and that is why you've convinced yourself you can never divorce your adulterous husband and remarry another man.

I NEVER said that bad things were from God...sheesh!!!

God Hath Not Promised

God hath not promised skies always blue
Flower strewn pathways, all our lives through;
God hath not promised sun without rain,
Joy without sorrow, peace without pain.

But God hath promised strength for the day,
Rest for the labour, light for the way,
Grace for the trials, help from above,
Unfailing kindness, undying love.

God hath not promised we shall not know
Toil and temptations, trouble and woe;
He hath not told us we shall not bear
Many a burden, many a care.

But God hath promised strength for the day,
Rest for the labour, light for the way,
Grace for the trials, help from above,
Unfailing kindness, undying love.

God hath not promised smooth roads and wide,
Swift, easy travel, needing no guide;
Never a mountain, rocky and steep,
Never a river turbid and deep.

But God hath promised strength for the day,
Rest for the labour, light for the way,
Grace for the trials, help from above,
Unfailing kindness, undying love.



Love this Poem....

I do believe that we are punished for our sins....Dont you, SW?

There are stories of that in the Bible...

If the marriage is over why wouldn't both parties be allowed to remarry?

Me too. One of my favorites.

They can remarry....But in Gods eyes it will not be recognized.

Your WH's adultery is bad and you wondered if you were being punished by that adultery for your sins.

Yes, I do wonder that...I think we are punished for our sins....

God has at times punished people for specific acts. But those were clear cut....not I am letting you suffer adultery because you had premarital sex.

Ok, we have gone full circle and I doubt we are going to agree on this.

I do still wonder if you think that God didn't recognize David's marriage to Bathsheba. Or if you only think it was recognized because her husband was dead.

You are probably right about God not having me suffer from adultery as punishment for my premarital sex....

I was thinking.....since my friend A divorced because of physical abuse, which is not covered, and she remarried, which is not recognized, would that make her 4 kids, including the 28 week preemie who just came home from the hospital, illegitimate and therefore [censored]?

I am not being ugly, just following this it a logical conclusion. And if we are still under the law and believe in generational curses....what is to become of those products of adultery? Should they marry?

We are not under the law.

Did your friend's abusive husband not remarry? Does she believe he was not unfaithful to her after she left him?

I know several couples who divorced with no scriptural grounds and have remained single. One couple has been in that sort of limbo for over 20 years.

Doesn't really happen all that much though. Usually one or the other of them will fall into sin and that frees the other mate.

Easier all around to stay together! Sometimes there are issues that make that impossible. I know of one where the wife was mentally ill and felt her husband was out to get her. She later killed herself. Her husband did not remarry....not in the 15 years they were divorced or the 5 years since she killed herself.

The story has David repenting for his sins and God forgiving him...I wont go into all the details....but with that and Bathshebas H being dead...well then if he wasnt dead then I think it would have been dealt with differently...Yes, she couldnt go back to her H.

Well, true she couldn't go back to her husband since her affair partner had him killed. But that didn't mean she had to marry David. Or stay married once Nathan was sent to David to expose the treachery. Following the argument by some on this board, he should have sent her away and not had her be his wife since it was an affairage.

And that is my point....God forgave David and yet the marriage to Bathsheba remained.

But David repented for his sins and God forgave him....She couldnt go back to her H....so since her husband was dead then they could marry....

I guess my point of reasoning is yes, the marriage was over by reason of DEATH at the HANDS of David. How is that more tolerable than say if Bathsheba had just divorced her husband and then married David?

Because David repented for his sins.....The murder too...He was FORGIVEN!!! If Bathshebas H was alive there would be no other M....But he was DEAD!!!! She would be with her original H!

If your H dies...you can remarry....If David did not repent, then I believe there would not be a recognized new M....

So a WS who remarries and then repents has a recognized new M?

If her H was still alive...She would have to go back to him, the new M would not be recognized....That is true repentance...IMO

Or he could divorce her and stay unmarried....She would have to stay unmarried also...

If her husband was still alive it is true she would not have married David.

The question though is about whether David's marriage to Bathsheba was recognized by God. Are you saying that before David repented and was forgiven it was NOT recognized?

Yes...that is my belief...

So....you believe that the privilege of remarriage for a WS depends upon whether they are forgiven by God?

How would that be determined by us humans?

Repent with God...Full repentance....Go back to your original BS...

Bathshebas H was dead....She could not go back to him....if you are a widow you can remarry....

And since we are so far down the rabbit trail my brain is hurting, I'd like to get back to my original thought which was that once one marriage is severed the parties are free to remarry. The fact that there is a new marriage in no way indicates the guilty parties are now forgiven for their sins. That is a seperate issue.

Take NC and her husband. She seems sincerely sorry for the marriage she helped destroy. Her husband not so much---backed up by the fact he also had an affair on NC. They are two seperate people who God will deal with seperately.

What if you can't go back to your BS because they have married another?

She was a widow because her adultery partner kiilled her husband! By your line of reasoning if she was REALLY sorry she would have left David and remained single.

She does seem truly sorry....She should leave him, given his past and current waywardness and truly repent before God...He seems a lost cause right now...JMHO....

I wish you true peace...whatever your decision, NC...

She did not kill her H....David did....

I can't figure out though if he is currently having an affair. Seems like she said he had an affair and she already forgave him for that. Do you know why they are currently seperated?

No...I thought it was because of his waywardness....but I am prolly wrong...

And still.....if she was really sorry for her adultery with David she would have remained single. Instead, it appears God recognized their marriage as valid in spite of how they ended up married. (by treachery)

Then you remain single....

The risk you take when you cheat...

They couldnt bring him back from the dead...God forgives murderers too..He knows if they are truly repentent...

Why? What does that accomplish?

I think we are not going to agree on this. The core difference being, it seems, is that I believe scripture indicates a marriage can be severed and you do not believe that is true. You MIGHT be willing to conceded the marriage can be HALF severed allowing the BS to remarry...but the WS must remain in the original marriage (but without any benefits at all).

Now I must pause to go teach history to a ten year old. Be back later.

Originally Posted by stillhere8126

I do believe that we are punished for our sins....Dont you, SW?

There are stories of that in the Bible...

@ Still ~
Sweetheart, please read:

1 John 5:11-12 (NIV)
And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.
&
1 John 1:9 (NIV)
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
&
1 Corinthians 15:3-5 (NIV)
For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that He was buried, that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that He appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve.
&
Hebrews 4:14-16 (NIV)
Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has ascended into heaven, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess. For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are�yet he did not sin. Let us then approach God�s throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.

What Jesus Christ did FOR US by TAKING THE "PUNISHMENT" for OUR SINS is what "FREES" us from God's "condemnation/wrath"...


Remember this song?
"I hear the Savior say,
�Thy strength indeed is small;
Child of weakness, watch and pray,
Find in Me thine all in all.�
* Refrain:
Jesus paid it all,
All to Him I owe;
Sin had left a crimson stain,
He washed it white as snow.
For nothing good have I
Whereby Thy grace to claim;
I�ll wash my garments white
In the blood of Calv�ry�s Lamb.
And now complete in Him,
My robe, His righteousness,
Close sheltered �neath His side,
I am divinely blest.
Lord, now indeed I find
Thy pow�r, and Thine alone,
Can change the leper�s spots
And melt the heart of stone.
When from my dying bed
My ransomed soul shall rise,
�Jesus died my soul to save,�
Shall rend the vaulted skies.
And when before the throne
I stand in Him complete,
I�ll lay my trophies down,
All down at Jesus� feet.
Refrain:
Jesus paid it all,
All to Him I owe;
Sin had left a crimson stain,
He washed it white as snow."

Jesus did for us what we could not do for ourselves...
God bless ~

I know Christ died for our sins...But I believe you have to be truly repentent....I dont think I ever cared that I slept with my H before we were married and therfore I never asked for forgivness....Never thought about it until it was brought up to me on this forum by someone...

How could my sins be forgiven when I wasnt even sorry for them until now....

I now believe I am only sorry because something bad happened to me....otherwise I would have never thought about it again...

1 John 1:9 (NIV)
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness



I never confessed this sin....and if I do now....am I truly repentant....IDK...

Repentance for the sin of adultery....

The risk you take when you sin....

Repentence isn't yogurt... it doesn't have a shelf-life, or an expiration date. The thief on the cross KNEW he was going to die, and that he would die soon - like a cancer patient finding God in the last 6 months.

Repentance is in your heart, not in your datebook or on your pocket watch.

Originally Posted by stillhere8126

1 John 1:9 (NIV)
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness



I never confessed this sin....and if I do now....am I truly repentant....IDK...

Still ~
You are the ONLY person on this side of Heaven who knows if you are "truly repentant"...
It is NEVER too late to confess your sins...
NEVER!
It is NEVER too late to "repent" from your sins...
NEVER!
So, Sweetheart ~ It's time for you to climb up on your Daddy's lap and tell him what is in your heart...
Do you have sins that still need to be confessed?
Are you sorry for what you have done that causes you and God to be separated?
Do you want to "change your mind" about the direction you have gone in certain areas of your life? (Repentance)
You & God know YOUR heart when you confess your sins...
You & God know YOUR heart when you "repent"...
(BTW ~ The definition of repent is:
1. To feel remorse, contrition, or self-reproach for what one has done or failed to do; be contrite.
2. To feel such regret for past conduct as to change one's mind regarding it: repented of intemperate behavior.
3. To make a change for the better as a result of remorse or contrition for one's sins.
v.tr.
1. To feel regret or self-reproach for: repent one's sins.
2. To cause to feel remorse or regret.

Lastly, and this is very important ~
In 1 John 1:9, IMHO, the "key" word is:
ALL!
Think about it!
What if you confess the sins that you can "remember"?
What happens?
God forgives them, right?!?
Okay! (And, this is the BEST part!!!)
God is soooooo B I G that He takes care of the sins that you cannot "remember" by including this part:
"...and purify us from all unrighteousness."

So, now...
Let's look at this for a moment...
IF we confess our sins, (The ones we "remember")
He is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and
purify us from ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS." (Including all of those sins we can't even remember!)

Who has the Authority to cleanse & purify us from our sins?
There is ONLY one Person who is qualified because He is the ONLY person who has ever lived who NEVER SINNED!!! NEVER!!!
His Name Is Jesus...

Hugs ~

Thanks for that Loveisachoice....I tend to think too deeply about a lot of stuff....but truly, I do feel bad about sex before M with my WH....BUT....Do I feel repentent for the right reasons....If I think too deeply about it I dont think so...


I am sorry about it because I wonder if it had something to do with WHs waywardness.....but other than that, IDK....Who did it really hurt, me?....I know its a sin....I just dont know if i am sorry about it for the right reasons....I wont do it again...I know that...

Am I thinking too much into it?

Thanks...I didnt know I would get a response from the Devil ...(I am referring to your cute little icon)...

Now THAT was funny, Stilly!

Mrs. W

Teeheehee....

Thank you, thank you everyone. Especially thank you to LoveIsAChoice for posting that old hymm. I can hear my grandma singing it and it has brought me to tears.

I have been debating this issue with the heaviest of hearts for so long and I feel like through you all God has finally given me a peace today about what I can do. I believe I can reconcile with my husband and work on our marriage.

I know there are still going to be those of you who disagree but your input has been just as valuable to me as those who think I can have a restored marriage AND a restored relationship with Christ.

The things that have really stood out to me in these debates here have been the all powerful forgiving power of God. I have always believed in His power of forgiveness but could not reconcile staying with my husband because of the "go and sin no more" argument. Now, after reviewing the situation with David and Bathsheba I realize that God's forgiveness wipes the slate clean. How could Bethseba be any less "ill gotten" gains than my husband is to me. David KILLED her husband. That doesn't make their situation better or release someone's marriage contract. Sin is sin to God. We as humans classify which sins are worse. God does not.

Psalm 103:12
..as far as the east is from the west, so far has he removed our transgressions from us.

The above verse applies, even to me! Praise God!!!!! What a weight to finally realize this, even to me!!

Galatians 2:16
..know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.

I can spend the rest of my life wallowing in remorse for sins that God has already forgiven and taxing my brain and my soul in an attempt to follow the works of the law. Or, I can accept the grace and forgiveness that Jesus gave His own life for and be free. I think God's intention for me is the latter.

I can't believe after all this time, all the counseling, and pastoral sessions it has finally come to me here. Through you all!!!

I do realize that I will always have earthly consequences for my adultery. I know that to my human peers it still reeks. I am not trying to glamorize my sin, only the amazing power of God to heal and restore our soul.

I don't think I can be much of a witness considering the circumstances of my affair. Someone here, and forgive me for not remembering who, pointed out that it could inadvertently be seen as an endorsement for "affairage" because we would still be together. I DO NOT want to do that. I will leave it up to God where and how he uses me. My life is laid out before him. He knows me inside and out and I will wait on his leading as to where he uses me.

I will continue with my plan to confess to my children. I will be sharing all of this with my husband. I will also wait until God shows me the appropriate time and manner in which to repent to the BW. He will know when it is the right time and I am going to listen very carefully.

I never expected in coming here to be uplifted in this way. I know that at least some of you have been praying for me. Thank you so very much.

I would love to be able to stick around here. Maybe I can let you posters let me know when my thoughts might be helpful somewhere. Otherwise I will just stick to my own thread.

NewCreation

NC...how is your relationship with your AP's children? Will your continued presence in their father's life affect them negatively...continue to cause them hurt?

:p



Hey, everybody; let's just venture to guess that 11 years later that her WH probably isn't going to have a chance to reconcile w/ his former BW, who has remarried.

NC stated she was fully divorced when she became entangled in the A with what is now her H/WH.

11 years. I would say that is a tad beyond the high average lifespan of affairs/affairages.

She has been gracious enough to be completely honest where she is coming from, and she seems to want to make the best she can out of where she is.

Can we MB that?

Glad to hear this. (I hope he doesnt repeat his pattern)




This is true. As your other post (If you are thinking of marrying your affair partner) says so well....it didn't turn out like what you imagined.



I don't think of your story as an endorsement for affairages. To the contrary...who would want to go through the pain you have suffered (self inflicted though it is) I can assure you though that you will trigger BSs at times. I would think you would have valuable insight to share with WSs on the brink.


I assume his children are now grown. I think apologies to his children and to your own would go a long ways toward restoring your peace. To the BW....I'm unsure of that one either way.

Peace to you.

Yes....First she needs to decide if she wants to same the M....

Then I think some info...like about his A....and why they are now separated....

She might want to even try counseling with the Harleys, if she wants to try and save her M....I know for me, it might just be a little hard for me to be nonjudgemental...But others might be able to help her....

Bitter...thats the word I am looking for...I am bitter...

Considering your situation, I couldn't blame you.

So are you also saying that a bank robber can repent for stealing the money, while still SPENDING the money?

He needs to re-pay the bank in order to fully repent AND be forgiven, IMHO. This seems like common sense, no?

How can you fully repent when you are STILL COMMITTING THE CRIME?

Ahhhhhh, MarriedForever.....I needed you here earlier.....


EXACTLY!!!!!!!!

I believe he is currently wayward. They are living in separate houses.

My step-children are both grown now. I have apologized without conditions to them both. One I am on good terms with, the other I am not. The bad feelings though are not about the affair. We had a period of time while she lived with us that we got along great. The bad feelings are from discipline issues during the late teen years that she has not gotten over yet.(No one was physically punished or anything else cruel or unusual just to be clear.) I am currently trying to reconcile that relationship to an at least cordial place but have been firmly rejected so far.

Just this past hour I had the opportunity to sit down and confess my past to my 17 year old daughter. Scotland! I wanted to make sure you see I did it! It was very hard but you were right it was necessary. She wasn't nearly as upset with me as I feared. She was uncomfortable. She said she knew it was wrong and that at least I was trying to something about it. She also said she loved me just the same and always would. *sigh* What a wonderful child. I left the door open for questions if she has any later.

Now I have to speak with my son. That should be the last person left to confess to until such time as God see's fit to have me speak to BW. My son is engaged to be married. At first I was only going to talk to him, because it is humiliating mostly. But, the more I have thought about it I am going to speak to them together because if ever there is a lesson you need to hear before embarking on a marriage, this is it. I just hope that I will not be ruined forever in my future DIL's eyes.

Can we MB what exactly?

Some of the BSs here are only going to be able to view this from the BW in this situation's perspective. She continues to be hurt and offended by NewCreations presence in her life and wants nothing for her children or herself to do with the NC...and I can only say if I was in her position I would probably feel the same way.

No matter how many years they are married or how sincere NC seems, I can't seem to muster up more than that when I look at this thread other than to feel sad about how people were/may be triggered when they read it...

NC ~ PLEASE have the courtesy of NOT asking for help on these boards. There are far too many in terrible pain right now from a spouse's affair...this would be ridiculously cruel.

If you want help from MB, please do it in private, from the Harley's. I am sincerely asking you do not do this on these boards. You will not get the help you need on these boards, trust me.

x2

Point them to MB. Buy them some of the books on what to do to have a good M as well as what to do to protect a M from an A.

That would be an awesome gift. They do not have a good role model for M in real life. They can learn a lot from MB.

Well it sure was cursed..

Thank you EE for pointing out the scriptures I could not find yesterday, and the reference to the Blue-eyed Jesus, well your right there too.

A former Rabbi who had converted to Evangelistic Christianity cae to teach once at our church, he said Christ was a short guy with nappy hair and stocky, not the surfer dude with nice Abs we see in pictures.

The validity of this new marriage before God, well, in the absence of understanding a relationship with God is Gods most highest desire and priority, and understanding that God will use anything to get us to come to Him, why would he not use our lust patterns and the pain we suffer from them to bring us to Him? Why does God bless marriages? or should I say how? I would say only when He is the priority can we truly love another, and it is far beyond a business deal, at least it that is found out by the many who would seek to twist a marriage to their own gain, and neglect His other subject, whom he loves just as much.

Someone brought out the point that Hell was mentioned many times in the Bible, of course it is, most of us do not even open our eyes untill life, consequences, deemed by God IMO, for change,(repentance) hits us in the head with a 2x4. I can agree with that. I also think that if Christ remembers no more the sins of the past, it is only because we are hard-hearted and not capable of forgiveness that we keep bringing them up.

I am still struggling with forgivness, and am only human and limited, and maybe I will be scarred for the rest of my life here on earth as far as relationships, but the promise that I can seek the kingdom of God first, and all things will be added unto me, (Which I take as in the now and experientually also), keeps me going and gives me hope.

I believe that anything outside the will of God is evil, and everything we experience here is designed to draw us to Him. Its no surprise to me that NC had to experience what she did in her human weakness to come to that point, but I will let God deal with that, as he apparently has, or she would not be here.

God has pruned back the vine, and shook what things that can be shaken, so only He remains for her. What he cares about is that she sins no more, and not the details of her blindness. It is by Gods laws and our interpetations and judgements, of someone who did not even understand them much less trust them at one time, that we might tend to enslave her. She really screwed up, we would be reticent<sp>, to say differently, but to condemn her present life she may or may not be able to build with or without her WH. I pray she finds peace from the curse she has bought into, and that

Joel 2:24-26 (King James Version)

24 And the floors shall be full of wheat, and the vats shall overflow with wine and oil.

25 And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you.

26 And ye shall eat in plenty, and be satisfied, and praise the name of the LORD your God, that hath dealt wondrously with you: and my people shall never be ashamed.

We are separated currently but he is not in an active affair at this time.

Just to be clear, I do not plan to ask for help on restoring this marriage on these boards. We do have Harley's books, and a counselor who is on board with Harley's philosophy's. I will call the Harleys direct if needed. I think it would be disrepectful and too hurtful to BWs and BHs to expect help actually on these boards.

And so honesty and sincerity is met with condemnation by those who speak with their tongues about forgiveness, and their actions show what is truly in their hearts.

Thank you.

Originally Posted by HoldHerHand

Originally Posted by stillhere8126

Bitter...thats the word I am looking for...I am bitter...

Considering your situation, I couldn't blame you.

DITTO!

Still ~
My prayer for you is that God will show you how you can be "released" from this bitterness!
Life is too short ~
And ~
You are too precious to continue in this state!
IMHO...
God Bless ~

What if the bank robber spent the money on bubble gum that he chewed all up?

What then? Does he never get forgivness? What if he decides to pay the money back only to discover that a new government has taken over and his currency is worthless?

Then he gets a job and STILL has to RE-PAY THE MONEY.

That is part of the consequence. The bank isn't going to just let him skip on out of there with a "oh, the money's been chewed up? I guess we're just SOL then!". Noooo...he must find a way to re-pay the bank.

Originally Posted by MarriedForever

Originally Posted by stillhere8126

Yes....First she needs to decide if she wants to same the M....

Then I think some info...like about his A....and why they are now separated....

She might want to even try counseling with the Harleys, if she wants to try and save her M....I know for me, it might just be a little hard for me to be nonjudgemental...But others might be able to help her....

NC ~ PLEASE have the courtesy of NOT asking for help on these boards. There are far too many in terrible pain right now from a spouse's affair...this would be ridiculously cruel.

If you want help from MB, please do it in private, from the Harley's. I am sincerely asking you do not do this on these boards. You will not get the help you need on these boards, trust me.

@MarriedForever ~
I respectfully disagree with you...
I have yet to see/hear the Harley's admonish people who are in NC's shoes to "stay away".
From my limited knowledge, this forum is "open" to "all"...
Even NC...
I have a possible solution for the BS's who are members of this forum...
If NC's thread is too painful for you to read, please refrain...
There "may" be "some" who come to this forum who "may" benefit from NC's thread...
IMHO, that is...
God Bless ~

Love ~ you can disagree with me all you want. I've been around these boards long enough to know that a full-on board war WILL erupt if she tries posting here.

There will be tons of anguished words, lots of tears and a boatload of unnecessary hurt and triggering from the many BSs here who are hurting terribly. Trust me. This would be incredibly disrespectful. Every single time an affairage has tried to get help here the thread gets locked because it is so painful.

P.S. the problem, Love, for hurting BSs to just "stay away" is...the often don't know until it's TOO LATE that they are reading/helping out on a thread that is an AFFAIRAGE.

The same exact type of relationsh*t that their spouse is actively engaged in. How would you like it if your WH and his OW married and then came here, to MB, asking for help? Would you want to help them?

Insanity to even suggest such a thing. Truly heartless, Love.

I'll remind those of you who wish to quote scripture and define repentance and forgiveness, that it is His to give, and not yours, and I would also like to remind you of Matthew:



The sheep helped those in need, and did not wait to find if they were in some form acceptable, they did not weigh their own situation versus their charity - they simply helped another soul in need. No questions, no judgements; they simply rendered aid.

The goats? Well, they wanted to make sure anyone they might help would be Godly, and worthy of their charity. They wanted some type of reward or righteousness before they could possibly render any aid to anyone. We see where their righteousness led them.

The last one in 101 was a 1 day bickerfest.

Hey still, sorry to see you are sick,(your avatar)

I can't see that people who are not willing to submit to God first, can even understand what marriage is in the first place.

Again it is to take care of someone in the way which God does, and a challenge in that light also.

Agreed, that people learn as they go along, and that adultry is just one of the pitfalls possibly endured in a marriage, along with as we have all learned through DH Hs help, the many forms of selfishness we take on in the marriage.

I just don't agree with "marriage at any cost", and seperation or D is IMO a viable reason to leave someone who is abuseing you, adultry being the most painful, but certainly not the only abuse.

I want to encourage you to seek what is peaceable between you and God, and be blessed by His presence in your life.

Of course it is your choice whether to get married again, don't let mans interpretation of Old Testement Law take away form the Grace bestowed upon us from Christ. Like ML says, "The only thing worse than not keeping a promise is keeping a bad promise" You are free to find someone who will keep a good one at any time.

Exactly. It triggers lots of people and many here feel incredibly disrespected that an affairage like the one that's ripped their life apart, is getting help.

It's truly disrespectful and cruel.

I just want to be clear one more time...

I WILL NOT ASK FOR HELP FOR MY MARRIAGE ON THESE BOARDS.

If I post it will only be about my continuing efforts towards growing in Christ and warning others about what adultery causes. I may update on my sitch with the BW if an update happens, and I will gladly answer any questions asked of me. But... I WILL NOT ask for marriage advice here. I do understand why and how that would be offensive.

What if the bank robber has a stroke and is paralyzed and can't work?

What then? Oh but he really enjoyed all that bubble gum back in the day.

Seriously, some wrongs just cannot be righted in our imperfect state.

That is graceful, and at the same time, sad.

I am going to have to say that I can no longer participate in your thread, as I simply don't have the conscience to watch the suffering of the sick and dying and stand here with my hands on my hips.

I hope the books and articles from here lead you where you want to go.

SW, this argument is no longer about Christ, and is solely about the hardness of people's hearts. KK?

I don't understand. You think she should not be here?

Personally even though she triggered me on my own thread about my ds and his stupid father I STILL think she has value to add to the boards.

She isn't like the guy on 101 a few weeks ago who wanted help with his affairage...he said all sorts of wayward crap.

And as for the bank robber analogy, I have a couple of responses.

First you are talking about earthly law, the laws of man. Not the laws of God. If you murder someone you can't bring that person back to life and return them to the family you took them from. God can still forgive you. Yes, there would be jail time on earth but there are no earthly laws about remarriage or affairage so my concern is with Godly law.

Second again I think to the many scriptures reminding us that it is through our faith and not our works that we will enter into His Kingdom. Any attempt to return my husband to his BW whether she wanted him or not, or even to live the rest of my days alone would be my human efforts. My WORKS. My works are not what God requires. He requires my faith. And my faith is an exciting work in progress!!

But in her case the wrong CAN be righted. You are giving scenarios that are not pertinent to this situation. The situations you mention are different. This is not.

I also dont believe in M at any cost....but as for my interpretation of the Bible...We get one shot at it (unless your spouse dies)...I wish I could see it otherwise....

I have Gods gift of a gorgeous, wonderful little boy...So I am not alone in life...I can live with that...

James 2:20: "...that faith without works, is dead."

Personally I would not be willing to take chances. I would want to make sure all of my bases were covered and that I had repented to the fullness of possibility. I would sure hate to find out I didn't do enough, when it was too late.

ITA

Oh boy, here we go again. sigh.. What always happens with affairages is board members express their disgust and horror at the thought of being put in a position of helping an affair. They envision their OWN WS' coming on the board with his OW and asking for help with his affair. It is like asking the rape victims to render aide to the rapist.

Seriously, what kind of person does that to others? I will tell you who. An affairee who has very little empathy and lots and lots of selfishness.

What happens next is the BS's and recovered WS' object to this outrage and then THEY are pounced upon and called "hard hearted," etc, etc, etc. The tables are turned and they are suddenly the bad guys for objecting to the equivalent of the rapist seeking aide from rape victims.

All the while, the affairee sits back and watches the fist fight with a smug grin on her face.

Lets not go there. NewCreation, you seem like a nice, sincere person. I don't profess to have the answer to the question of sin, but I do know where this is going to go. It is a board distraction and very, very upsetting and galling to most posters here.

The result will be that you don't get any help but will upset and outrage many good folks who have had to deal with LOTS and LOTS of upset and heartbreak in their lives.

So why not show some empathy here and call the Harleys directly? Get help in a one on one setting. That is the best way to ensure you get help and avoids all this drama.

What do you say?

No, I just wish there were more here for her than her value to others. I do wish there was some hope and healing for her.

I think the full passage you quoted carries the weight even better;



Feelings follow action, right?

I think that God will use me and those will be my works. Works of His choosing. This is not a decision I have taken lightly. It is not a decision I came to out of convenience. I have been ready and resolved to follow through with divorce if that was the path God made clear to me. I do not feel that it is. I feel a peace in my heart today that I have not felt in years and I believe that is God giving my answer. That is God telling me I am forgiven.

I understand that may not make some people happy. I am sure that the human in us would prefer to think that those who have wronged us and caused us pain only get to suffer and pay. Thankfully God doesn't meet out justice the way we would. I for one am glad. I think we all should be. I think if we all got what we really deserved even the best of us would be in big trouble. I am thankful for grace.

Okay MelodyLane. You all here have helped me in my repentance and healing process. If my leaving returns the favor in any small way then I will go.

I am sorry to go, but I understand why.

Signing off!
NewCreation

I am extremely happy that you have peace in your heart....and I am only expressing my interpretations....I hope that you do not think I am condeming you....Your relationship with GOD is betw you and he...it has NOTHING to do with me or what I think....I was only trying to judge my sitch....I wish you continued peace...

NC, that would be a true demonstration of empathy and Christian compassion.

God Bless!

Agreed, then it because the hardness of our hearts that God gave us the right to D right?

Does that mean that we should remain in a awful marriage if there is no adultry? If someone is emotionally twisted or physically abusive and will not seek any help from anybody?

I am asking a question also, because my alcoholic wife, who was also a professing Christian, who knew the Bible dot and tittle way better than me, also used it against me with the Law of it.

I am reminded of the words from a Pastor I know, "The Bible, the only book that kills people"

So staying and covering her sins was the right thing to do? Or did I condemn her to a life of addiction and denial by staying around and being her doormat?

My spirit told me I was abused, but my legalism kept me there, as well as my love for the children, and the hope it would come to an end. But I assumed the rank of a marytr, and even though it might have saved the children from a worse fate, the sacfifice I am certain did not send them a positive message about God and marriage.

I did it to myself of course, on that point God is reaching me slowly. But it brings me back to my main question. What is more important, our relationship with God, and obedience to him, or our percieved sacrifices to him?

It has set me somewhat free, to realize Christ made the only pure and accepted sacrifice to God, and that mine would not satisfy the Law of God.

NC, I am not going to give you marriage advice.

But I hope that you know that God's Word explicitly states that we are saved by grace through faith, and that if you have repented of sin and places your faith in Christ as your Lord and savior based on what He did on the cross, you are NOT going to hell.

Once again I have "fallen out of favor" (big deal), but calling into question your salvation is a very personal attack and one that I assume would not be tolerated if it were known.

It's a very fine line. Sometimes one word can be enough to change a person's entire view. But the God who created me knows I have repented, and the man that I betrayed in the spring of 2006 knows I have repented and has fully forgiven me. People who do not have a myopic view of me know who I am. I pray that you can have that same confidence.

I didn't say you needed to GO...I simply said that it would be a disaster if you asked for help for your affairage here.

I think you have a lot to offer those who think that the grass is greener in affairages. You seem sincerely remorseful which is certainly a breath of fresh air.

You came up with the bank robber story not me.

This wrong CANNOT be righted! The BW has remarried and doesn't want him back. A new vow/marriage has been made with NC and her husband and that needs to be honoroed if possible.

I personally dont think that God wants anyone to stay in an abusive marriage...its tough to reconcile that with the Bible...Here is something I found interesting on that subject.


spousal abuse and divorce

Good grief luri, are you talking about us here? WE have a "myopic view" of you?

Do you realize that in just about every single post of yours, you somehow bring up how horribly you are treated here? Or maybe just in the world?

You could be a real asset to this board, luri, if you dropped the defensiveness. You seem truly remorseful but it gets old how every.single.one.of.your.posts complains about how poorly others see you.

Please think about this. Please just be an asset to the board and quit feeling so attacked. NO ONE is attacking you.

So the bank robber has made a vow to never rob another bank but is still spending the money from the first bank??? THAT is repentance?

We're going to have to agree to disagree, this is going nowhere. I do not agree with your interpretations of the bible and you don't agree with mine.

I mean abuse has many angles....I dont think that God would want you to stay married if your spouse was a believer in God and suddenly became a satan worshipper or murderer...etc...

You need to separate yourself from that evil...and that what I think that website and its Bible references are pointing out...again, just my opinion....

Oh my goodnes, Luri...I truly think you are a wonderful person...I mean from what I know of you on here (unless you are hiding an evil side from us)... ...

This reminded me of a situation over on the private forum where a BW received a letter from the OW so I went and looked up the post. I see the same callousness and lack of empathy being demonstrated in this situation:

HUH? With who? I am confused.

Mrs. W

I'm sorry. I didn't realize that 2221 posts had all been defensive. And I was a real asset (not my words, others') until 2 days ago when I used the word bitter. The thing is....I am not attacked by the world. Like I said, it just seems to happen every once in awhile in a very narrow realm. I'll never be perfect. Maybe I'm just a big picture person. If someone is generally on the right track and doing helpful things and has a slip up every now and then......it just doesn't radically shift my opinion of them. maybe it's from growing up in a house where I was only as valuable and worthy as I had been in their view in the last 24 hours....it was like being on constant probation.

Principles of MB saved our M, and there are people here who have given me valuable, yes even life-changing, insight. Maybe I just care too much about being "okay" in MB's eyes. So when I think I have "failed," I get.....really sad. These were the boundaries I spent a lot of time thinking about. Maybe I am just too......prone to humanness or something to be a consistent asset to message boards.

And whatever you do, please don't say "I'm sorry you feel that way."

Well, MF....If the robber made a "vow" to spend the stolen money that was already stolen, mind you....well then he can spend it, right? He must honor that "vow"...Just as long as he promises not to steal again...

I'm sorry, Mrs. Wondering. Just ignore me....I'm...weird. I tried something. It didn't work.

Luri....YOU ARE AN ASSET TO THESE BOARDS!!!..And I admit...I AM BITTER, I AM!!!!!...Getting better..but still a little bitter...

Just doesnt sound good when someone else calls me it, but it is true...and you already apologized for it...so I am over it...I have had to apologize to people myself...I am the same way...sometimes I take a little break from the board, cuz I am sensitive like that...(I am not saying YOU are sensitive, mind you)...But dont take anything too personally, I truly beleive that you are loved on here...and definitely by me...

Luri...

From me to you...You have been and ARE an asset to this forum...I wish very much that you would stay HERE and continue as such...You have been inspirational and healing to me more than you know...There is even a song on a CD that I play in my car all the time that makes me think of you -- I've almost posted the words to you before, and got busy and didn't do it...Luri, more people here than you know root for you and have respect for you...

Mrs. W

I guess it can't, obviously by the length of this thread, some things are to be left between God and each person.

Our interpretation of the Law falls short in this, I believe that is the point of giving ot to us. Its Gods Law, and we understand it is good. It guides us in life, and teaches us what we would not learn on our own, because we would stumble and fall constantly.

But because we agree with the law, we also use it to hold ourselves up over others, comparing and juddging whether others are deserving forgivness from God.

Makes me think of the scripture allready quoted about removing the speck from anothers eye, when we need the plank removed from our own, when it comes to the Law of God.

I think Markos mentioned that this debate is ageless, and that shcolars have done it for centuries. I am enjoying this thread though, and getting a lot of good things from it. Mostly the clear understanding that what God wants most, is for me to agree with Him,and to let him reign in my spirit.

I don't think anyone around here see you as a failure. Not hardly. The difference between your situation and this OP's situation is that the OP married her AP and is STILL married to him.

God gives us discernment. Some of us even have the gift of discernment. Now whether we have the ears to hear is another story. Your ears are hearing criticism against you where there is none. I LOVE reading your posts. You have a lot of wisdom to offer.

As someone who has been betrayed in the worst way, when I first read this OP's post I was moved. I believe her motives are pure. Now that she feels she has her "answer", however, she can't expect that everyone will see her in the same light. They won't. Not on this board. Not the newbies who come in here with fresh wounds. Not the ones who have lost their marriages to someone just like her.

The kind thing for this OP to do is to seek one-on-one counseling with Dr. H. I don't think other BSs will appreciate her offering "advice" on their threads. I wouldn't.