In another thread my buddy aussie and I were going back and forth. I didn't want to hijact that thread which was a nice, welcome home kind of thread. But it raised an issue and I am real interested in what the group will say about it.

I am a BS whose marriage didn't recover. Divorced 5 years now. And I was talking about how the involvement with the WS can still be foggy, unclear and annoying. I made the comment that I am dreading the weddings, etc. of our children where I am forced to be in the same room.

Aussie replied back, a normal-type reply, essentially that I should make it about the children. Hey, makes sense, good advice. Here is my question.....

WHY?

And I mean in the sense of affairs/children get "special" consideration.

Consider the recent attempt of an Islamic group to build a mosque near ground zero of the WTC bombing. The country was in an uproar. They wanted the government to step in and stop it.

Here's the thing:
1) This IS America. We HAVE freedom of religion. If the group could legally pay for the ground, they legally can build it there according to zoning laws, etc., etc. We should celebrate the fact that we live in a country where our freedoms are protected to the extent that that CAN happen.
2) Unless we are willing to round up all Muslims and categorically lump them in with a fringe element, one cannot say Islam is bad as a whole. (Be careful my Christian friends, the Inquisition weren't that long ago....)

So to me, having the government PREVENT this construction is ridiculous. In no way is that in the spirit of this country. BUT it WAS in very bad taste. It is the kind of thing a selfish person would propose. And it should NOT happen, but only out of reasons of common decency, not out of violation of some sort of right. It was in very bad taste, but well within the rights of the people trying to build it. I think most everyone would agree on that. Very bad taste like......

.... wearing a Nazi uniform into a synagogue.
.... having a Klan rally on MLK's birthday.

and I could go on, throughout history, but you get the point. I dang sure CAN hold a Klan rally on MLK's birthday and have every right to do so according to the 1st Amendment. And thank God my rights to do so are protected. But it's a RESPECT thing. It's just in very bad taste.

You don't make child molesting jokes at a middle school assembly. You don't make "going postal" jokes to someone who has suffered workplace violence. You don't have a murderer attend a victim's funeral. You don't shout "baby killer" during a veteran's parade. YES you have the RIGHT to do all those things, but it is in bad taste to do so.

Well what about having an unrepentant WS attend a wedding?

WHY is THAT not in bad taste?

"Hey kids, take these vows seriously, by the way, there's your wayward mom over there, and she thinks you should too ..."

That's the collective advice - make it about the kids and suck that up. Sweep that crap under the rug, don't make waves. Appease everyone and your moral beliefs be damned for the sake of the kids.

Why?

What are we teaching them THEN? There were a lot of whites during the freedom rides sparked by Rosa Parks. And that added a lot of credibility to the movement. Is our advice to them, those bold, bold folks who stood for what is right and noble "you really shouldn't make waves, you'll just upset your kids."

You think the children of those folks didn't get teased in school? You daddy/mommy is a [censored] lover? Sure that happened. But THOSE people said "Kids, there are times you have to make a STAND even when it isn't popular or comfortable."

We want our kids to learn WHAT exactly? That they should be sheep and roll over because they have strong beliefs? That the world will work to make everything OK?

Just don't get it. My feelings? A WS who hasn't repented attending a wedding is like a devil worshipper attending a baptism. Hey, if your life choice is devil worship, more power too ya. It's a free country and I hope that works out for you. But don't go to a baptism. That's just bad taste.

And if you want to run off with another man/woman and don't care and urinate on the institution of marriage, more power too ya. It's a free country. But don't go to a wedding.

The board here get's upset when a wayward comes on and defends affairs. We lock the threads and say this is in bad taste.

Someone tell my why I should not look at my sons and say "If your mom is invited to your wedding, count me out....."

That's a very common thing for BSs to do. Why don't you do it?

Have you discussed this with your son at all, on any level?
I mean, without the "Count me out" remark?

Have you had a man-to-man about the marriage vows and had the commitment discussion with your son?

I'd advise you to focus the interactions with your son towards the meaning of marriage. His marriage. Explore what your son thinks about marriage.

Eventually, you can discuss what (who) the enemies of marriage are.
You might ask him how he feels about inviting enemies of marriage to his wedding.

In other words, work your way into that discussion.

Sound do-able?

Yes, you should make it about the children.
If you go to these events, and a wayward ex tries to mingle with you or sit near you...you say "I'd appreciate if you don't sit with me"
Just don't engage and deal with the angst after the event from seeing them as best as you can.
The kids know the wayward did something heinous. They know it.
You don't need to go to every little event nor mingle with the wayward while there.

If you say count you out if the wayward is attending.......make sure you mention that if you go.....you will be a basket case so very long due to the pain being too upsetting still. Then, they will understand you are not doing it due to bitterness but due to current emotional reasons.

Gosh...I just reread my reply and its a bit convoluted in structure....hope you can make sense of it!

What I don't like about this is .... it seems to me, there are some important and meaningful heart-to-heart discussions you ought to have with your son before you declare (and never in anger) your intentions.

The only thing that bothers me about this, and I am just a newbie, is the idea of making the kids choose between parents.

When is this wedding?
You probably have time (months) to express and explore your views/beliefs with carefully prepared finesse.
And, you can spend time with your son in such a way that will be beneficial to your son as he prepares to get married.

Approaching him as a believer in marriage will feel better (for you) than approaching your son as an enemy of your ExWW.

You can always opt out with style and class.

WHOAAA!!!

Slow down. I would never do this in a threatening way with the kids. And I would of COURSE discuss it fully with the DS.

This is hypothetical. (Though the day IS coming, not soon, where it won't be hypothetical).

My curiosity is more:

MOST people would agree that the Mosque near the WTC is in bad taste. No way, no how should it be built.

But MANY would be OK with the WS attending the wedding. When it sends the SAME message of bad taste.

Why is it that affairs seem to get "special treatment" with society?

If my spouse drives me nuts through verbal abuse and I crawl in the bottom of a bottle, most everyone will brand me a no good alcoholic. But if I crawl in bed with another partner, a surprising number will say I deserved to because of how I was treated. (Not here, I would think. )

BOTH are escaping the marriage with behavior that has very destructive results to the family (were one to choose to apply that definition).

But in large part, affairs are "brushed under the rug" as a part of life. Other things are not.

AAA you make my point. The KIDS are involved. And that bothers you. Having the kids choose.

THAT's the question. Are we shielding them from hard choices for their protection? Or are we preventing them from learning how to make them in a protected way and robbing them of the skills to be adults.

And let's say the "kid" is 26. I would definitely see my 26 year old as "my kid." But they're HARDLY a kid at that point ....

My bad.
Hypothesize without me.
Have fun!
Over & out!

And Pep, you are also making an excellent point.

It would not be hatred of the ex as the motivator. (And I DO NOT hate my ex, I am indifferent towards her). It would be standing up for what is right.

Is not a WS at a wedding a mockery of marriage? Then why not stand up for what is right?

Turn the logic around.... Suppose I say nothing and the wayward ex comes with my blessing. Then suppose 5 years after the marriage my son attends the clan rally on the MLK birthday. And I say "Son, I am very disappointed in you. Regardless of your beliefs that was in bad taste to do that on Dr. King's birthday." And he comes back argumentatively with "Dad, it's no different than you being OK with mom at my wedding." What do I say to him then?

At least you told me to operate with "style and class." That's always good advice.

A dear friend of mine faced this question not that long ago. My recommendation was that the friend not go, especially since the kid was a bit in-your-face about having the wayward parent and OP there.

Ultimately my friend chose to attend the wedding, and I am fine with that choice and with the reasoning that went behind it.

My recommendation will still just about always be to not go, if aliens are certain to be present. Which is why I LOVED Pep's suggestion of how to work around into that conversation, which never even occurred to me before.

Ask them a few questions, get a few answers, and then oh-so-gently move in to the Enemy of Marriage part. Brilliant!

In my hypothetical opinion, what makes any adulterer past, present, former or even so-called repentant worthy to be present at any celebration of the sacrament of marriage whatsoever? Ever?

Perhaps if they performed some sort of affirmation of the sanctity of marriage before all present? Nah, would not be believable. Repentance is generally just an act. Some better than others.

Since it�s hypothetical�how many additional unknown adulterers are hiding in the pews?

My poor kids will not be able to invite their Dad, my FWH, to their hypothetical wedding.

Married 30 years.
Adultery lasted 2 years.
Faithful other 28 years.
16 years after adultery.

I better prepare the kids now.
"Kids, your Dad will not be allowed to attend your sacrement of marriage because he violated his vows 16 years ago and his affirmation and faithfulness since then is not believable, is just an act, and means nothing.

Digging around.....

This place is such a mess during construction ....

Where DID I misplace that marriage scorecard????

Damn.

The analogy being used is, as are all analogies, imperfect.

Focus.

The bottom line: what are your beliefs about the specific issues?

About the sacrament of marriage?

About what do you want your children to believe about the sanctity of marriage?

Perhaps about forgiveness and letting go, earned or not?

And how do you want to communicate your beliefs?

No need to bring in political tactlessness.

It's up to you, not society.

eta: No need to keep a scorecard when the game is long over.

An even better hypothetical is:

What should a believer say to a minister who marries adulterers?

My 2cents.

It is because society places a "love scorecard" on the kids. I agree any repentant, remorseful, will do whatever it takes to make adultery the absolute "wrong" choice should be free to attend the wedding. There are two points I want to make.

1) It is just a wedding, and we do a horrible job as parents demonstrating "marriage" to them. If we parents showed our children how to "Do marriage", then the wedding ceremony would be a much differnt place. I am kind of out on weddings today only because adultery is so rampant. I would rather have the wedding be a marriage builder retreat with vows exchanged versus a wedding with food, alcohol, and usually some kind of sin.

2) I love my kids with all my heart and soul, and it is my job to raise them with morals, values, character, and honesty. If I lack any of those four, then I am likely doing my kids a huge disservice in life. My WH has committed adultery and has abandoned us. For society to tell me to "lie" to them and make their dad out to be someone he isn't is not my job. My job is to be honest with them. I will for the rest of my life explain to them how the annihilation of their family was caused by their father. It has nothing to do with revenge, vindictiveness, or anger, it has everything to do with teaching them "what not to do!"

Until their father comes to us and is fully repentant, remorseful, and hat in hand seeking forgiveness I will use him as an example to my children.

That doesn't mean my WH loves his children less, and I am not trying to pin one parent against the other. The simple reality is their father chose his happiness above their happiness. If we as a society are ever going to get a hold of this adultery crap, and how it annihilates everything in its path, then we must start to hold people accountable.

I agree a wayward at a wedding is kind of laughable. I hope I raise my children correctly to see how it is a mockery of the situation if they are there and unrepentant.

The key is repentant versus unrepentant. It will now be my job for the rest of my life to teach my children how they are prime to commit adultery themselves. I would do them a huge injustice if I pretend their dad is a swell guy while he remains wayward.

Tough

ncw,

All hypotheticals have their flaws. With that in mind, here are my thoughts.


My eldest daughter was married a few years ago. She faced a few interesting dilemmas on the invitation list, one of which was my sister. To make a long story short, my sister had sex with her very own son-in-law, which destroyed my niece's marriage and family. It destroyed my sister's family. It messed up my parent's relationship, and resulted in - basically a huge and ugly mess as you might imagine.

This sister of mine, well, has never been a terrific person anyway, and I had severed most contact many years ago. She pushes her way into my life as much as possible anyway.

She and some of her young wanted - no, pushed for - invitations to the wedding.

My daughter did not want them there. They are drama queens.


My daughter and her husband invited exactly those people who met this description:

"We have invited those people to our wedding who have meant something in our lives, who have supported us in our times of need, who have given to us love or guidance, friendship or a sense of family, have been there in good times or bad. The people who will be with us as we exchange vows will also be taking vows to support our marriage, to help us be man and wife, to be a part of our 'marriage community', and so those who are there will become a larger family together. They may come into the wedding not knowing each other, but they will leave as a family. This wedding will join more than us - so the invitations are going to those people who can and will enter this community in a meaningful way."

That is essentially what they said to us, so when we were asked why "everybody" didn't get an invitation, we explained this.

During the ceremony - indeed - we ALL TOOK VOWS.

The entire wedding party - everyone in attendance - was asked to stand and vow to support the marriage, to listen to the vows, to understand that we were a part of this community of the marriage, and as such we carried a responsibility to support this couple as a family. As such, we were to help them with good advice, guidance, love; to model for them with our own marriages; to not support behavior that was unkind or detrimental to their marriage; and to be a family to them and to one another.


This was the single best ceremony I have ever heard!

The result?

I am friends on FB with most of the people at the wedding.
I know all of my son-in-law's relatives. We even know his uncles, aunts, grandparents, in-laws, cousins, etc., and their home locations and jobs. We know his nieces and nephews - even though only a couple of them live in our state, and none of them live within 600 miles of us.



As far as the wayward question goes, I would say that the married couple needs to handle who is invited.

If you feel that you personally cannot handle facing your wayward ex-spouse, meet with the couple ahead of time. Take them to a beautiful place for dinner and some alone time. Give them a glorious time with your best love and positive support. Give them a lovely gift, with a card that offers the most positive hope and guidance for the future. Offer your regrets for your not being able to attend their wedding, and your well-wishes. There is no reason to ruin what will be a wonderful memory day for them because you carry pain and anguish, and because they are not able to stand up against affairages.

Some people cannot be strong like that. They just cannot do it. It does not mean they are "for" segregation, "for" building a mosque at ground zero, "for" the wholesale slaughter of Jewish people, "for" child abuse, or "for" affairs. All it means is that they are not the people who are the kind who will be at the front of the walk-out, or leading the sit-in, or making the speech on MLK day, or being Sister Rosa Parks who finally got fed up that day on the bus. BUT

They might be the person who says something privately to the wayward spouse, that you never ever ever will know about.


SB

SB,

That was EXTREMELY well thought out. Very good reply.

Second to the last paragraph.... Some people cannot be strong like that.... Why? The only answer is it is inherent in our nature. Because if it is LEARNED behavior, everyone can be like that. If I continue your logic, well affairs are inherent in our nature. So they should be OK because we can't help it.

Sorry. Don't buy it. I have been all over the world and seen some pretty rough circumstances. I will never sell a human being short in their ability to overcome. If one is not, my opinion, one just does not want to. Maybe naive, admittedly. But I've been able to do most everything I have put my mind to. And the things I can't, I've learned to live with and not let them get me down.


Aph,

How are you? It has been a LONG time. I brought in the other topics for contrast. To illustrate the fact that we are pretty clear as a society on some issues, but not on others that (at least to me) are the same issue.

If my son died in combat and war protesters were making a ruckus at his funeral, few would think that acceptable. It dishonors the service. Hey, maybe you don't believe in the war, but honor the soldier and show some respect.

But a wayward? No way would they think like that. Why? Affairs are inherently extremely selfish. What wayward wouldn't want to be there to bask in the glory of their kids most beautiful day...... even though they sort of dishonor it.

But were they there when the kid is projectile vomiting, or when the err and you have to go meet the principal, or when it's time to plunk down the cash on the first car.... NOT.

But I like what 'bus said. There is a yin and yang to things.

Courage without the temperance of wisdom can turn into brutality, etc.

One more note to add ...

What gets me today is people do not put Adultery up there with stealing and murder. It is the exact same thing.

If you are getting married would you invite a known murderer to your wedding if they aren't sorry?

If you are getting married would you invite a known thief to your wedding if they aren't sorry?

Adultery is the same sin, it produces the same pain (maybe more), and it is a Commandment.

Society has lessoned the rules on adultery, and I am not sure why? If it is wrong to murder and one goes to jail, then why isn't adultery in the same category.

Adultery destroys the foundation of our society. How much money would the United States save if we didn't have a 50% divorce rate and kids living in two different households?

How different would a wedding be if you knew going into the marriage you would be arrested and thrown in jail if you committed adultery?

My ds11 had this exact conversation with his dad (my WXH) a few weeks ago. I was present for the conversation and it wasn't pretty....but ds was expressing his disgust at XH still being involved with OW and XH said something about forgiving and not judging and ds said, 'you aren't sorry or you wouldn't still be seeing her! What worse thing could you have done Dad? Besides Murder what worse thing could you have done?'

The look on XHs face. Out of the mouths of babes.

Dh and I were discussing a friend of ours whose marriage is blowing up....and we commented on how the marriage contract is a joke. If business contracts were broken in the same manner people would be sued and/or go to jail.

Hey ncw. Yes it has been a loooong time. Good to hear from you too. I go for long periods of time without posting or even reading here. But I seem to be in a paroxysm of posting this past couple of weeks. What, six? Anyway, I need to go away for a while again. This place makes me sad. And often mad.

Interesting thought experiment though. IMO, one reason adultery has almost no legal or societal consequences is because that is what adulterers themselves want. There are so many of them they tend to steer society in directions supporting their desires - from media and entertainment to laws and justice. And they squeal like stuck pigs until they get what they want. No fault divorce itself is an example. It was pushed mostly by male lawyers and politicians for their own continued adulterous benefit.

Oh, and I agree with you. I would not attend the hypothetical wedding either. I would make sure everyone knew why, too. But, I don�t think I would attend even if the adulterer said they are hypothetically sorry. That is almost always theater. Someone like your ex who did so much damage to so many lives and then says, �Well I wish I hadn�t done it.� should get away with it that easily?

Enough hypothetical hyperbole. I am doing great and DS is doing very well in college. I hope you and your children are also doing well and do better and better forever.

ncw,

Just because something is either inherent in our nature or learned behavior does not make it "right" or "wrong".

Being strong enough to stand up for something right, or stand against something wrong takes fortitude. It also takes a belief in your own values, such that you truly know that what you believe simply is a universal truth - and that you trust in this truth such that it would apply to all humans everywhere.

Some people do not have this much belief in their own convictions. Others do not have what it takes to take a stand in public against anything, even when they do believe strongly. What makes someone a Rosa Parks? Did she wake up that one morning an ordinary woman, and then her usual persona threw down the shackles of inhibition, and she just "had enough"? Was she always the kind of woman who took a stand, and did she plan this?

What of MLK? We know he was special, that he took a stand from the start. Abe Lincoln, too. Others were thrust into the position of leadership, and took it on as it was handed to them. Consider the Medal of Honor winners, who woke up as ordinary soldiers one day, and as the sun set found themselves to be heroes because they stood their ground against an enemy. These men never expected this, yet found it in themselves.

Other men, in the same situation, might have yielded to the enemy. Some men as POWs never gave up any information at all. Others cracked under the pressure.

Are those who cracked bad men? No. Just not as strong in the face of fire.


We are made of different mettle. You would not invite the wayward ex to the wedding. My oldest daughter wouldn't either.

In the case of my youngest daughter? She did. Oddly enough, for her husband's family, it actually turned out to be something of a miracle for them. I know that sounds very strange, but to them, it worked in a positive direction.


Goes to show you what hypotheticals are.


We never know what we would really do, or really get in the end.


After all, there are quite a few of us here who said, "If my spouse ever had an affair, I would divorce him/her."

Yeah. Right....