Oh boy, check out this website!! Dr Harley mentioned this on the radio show yesterday. Sounds like a great idea!

http://shesahomewrecker.com/expose-homewrecker

Radio show #1 [1-27-14] http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=5736#

Radio show #2 [1-29-14] http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=5748#

I missed the radio show.
Did Harley encourage people to use it?

There is a companion website: www.hesahomewrecker.com

I've seen it

I just caught the tail end of his comments but the general gist was that he felt it was a great idea to publicize the names of infidels. He said that when they publicized the names of "johns" in areas that had prostitution, the prostitution went way down.

Great counterweight to some of the cheater type sites, which I won't mention

I used to live in Portland, Oregon and the prostitution got so bad the city started publishing the names of men arrested in the "prostitute free zones" and began to immediately impound their vehicles for sale.
I think it made a difference

Somebody had a letter read on the radio show today, about this site. Somehow, this writer got the bizarre idea that the point of this site was to lay all of the blame for infidelity on women.

Of course, that couldn't be further from the truth. The point is to expose infidelity! Nobody, least of all Dr. Harley, is saying that the blame should all be laid at the feet of cheating women. I'm sorry that the writer has probably encountered such an attitude before, somewhere, but that's no reason to read it into other situations like this.

The fact is, there is a companion site: www.hesahomewrecker.com.

So they are apparently trying to offer means to expose both men and women that cheat

I just listened to the show.
He discussed this website quite a bit and it is worth listening to if anyone is interested.
Broadcast date 1-29-14

Ohhh brainy girl...can you post link when you get a chance?

Thanks

I found it very, very interesting that the writer thought Dr Harley should focus on the "pain" felt by the OW or OM. Wonder who would ever be worried about that?? Dr. Harley said something along the lines that they knew what they are getting into when they embarked on the affair so he doesn't' have much sympathy.

I made some notes:

The writer of the email: "I understand the BW is hurt terribly, but so is the OW who is left alone and hurt when the affair ends!" "Why is the WH left alone when he is actually the one cheating?!"

Who thinks like except the actual OW?

Dr H addressed her comments with:

"That has a been brought to my attention on numerous occasions. They want me to write something in Surviving an Affair that will help the other person. My argument has always been that it is a life lesson to be learned. When you have an affair with someone who is married the chances of it working out is extremely small."

"If I ran that website, I would tell them if they want to get off this website, I would insist on them giving me evidence they had repented"

There are a few hos living near me. Mental notes taken...should I run into any of them!!

A similar registration database for cheaters:
www.Cheaterville.com

I follow the Homewrecker site on FB and some of their posts are sad. The website is useful, but the FB not so much.

Very true, a lot of the comments make the BS feel bad about taking the wayward back. But they are under the delusion that everything is swept under the rug.

If they only knew the real work and how much harder recovery is than just walking away, they wouldn't say such things.

I'm wondering who exposes on these sites. I think it makes sense for a BS to use the site.

A stranger or some person down the road who doesn't even know the couple?

Yeah, that's getting into.......interesting territory.

Although I know a few people who could have a whole new hobby with this site

I agree. I looked at it and got the impression they only published stories that came from the betrayed wife. Have no idea how they verify that, but if you look at their application, they do ask for your full name. From the application screen:

here

I think it's highly overdue. Of course the website needs to be responsibile about validating with proper evidence but I should imagine the danger of being sued means they would be.

I work as a reporter and every day I expose the bad behaviour of criminals and fraudsters online and in the newspaper. I suppose this is why I find hesitancy about exposure a bit mystifying because I do it all the time. If you live in my newspatch and want to know who the wrongdoers are in your neighbourhood all you have to do is Google or read the news.

Except for infidelity. A misdeed that does truly cause a whole lot more pain for a victim than a burglary or a financial con. Strangers hear about their misdeeds - so why not this?

I think it is highly laudable that this site is using the right to tell the truth to carry out naming and shaming in this way. Think of all the repentance they will inspire and the single men and women who will avoid dating known cheaters.



This too seems sensible. It is their ox being gored, so their decision.



Lol.

Sounds like an OW got a bit embarrassed. Too bad, so sad.

I'm a FWW, and when I saw this I quickly went and made sure I wasn't listed. I have repented (my affair was years ago), and everyone in my personal life knows what I did. I also tell anyone I seriously date, because I believe it's important information that a potential spouse should know about me.

However, this site scares me: if I were up there, and people from work saw me, it could ruin my career - even though it was years ago and I've made many changes in my life since. I'm not a public figure: just a single mom doing the best she can for her children. But I'd hate to lose my job because my xH feels I should be punished even more for what I did.

So, as a former Wayward, I guess I don't have the sense of rejoicing over this website that a Betrayed might have. I suppose that's the point: to scare people into behaving and punish them when they misbehave. I dunno: I feel like I've suffered enough - but maybe a Betrayed would disagree.

I had this same reaction Zhamila. But I couldn't find a way to search for my name on the site, other than scroll through all of the "Homewrecker" postings.

The site says this:

This is shesahomewrecker.com where the betrayed woman exposes the other woman who became involved with her husband/boyfriend.

It is a site to expose women who got involved with other women's husbands, and the BW is the person whose story will be accepted.

It is not a FWW name-and-shame site, unless the FWW intervened in a marriage.

My affair was indeed with a married man.

Does the BW know about your affair with her H?

Dr Harley mentioned that if he ran the website, he would take their name off if they PROVED to him that he repented, which I think would be a gracious move. I am sure it does scare those who have been guilty of this behavior.

However, if one lost their job or a relationship, that would be a result of the adultery and nothing else. Zhamila, thats fine to decide you have "suffered enough" but you are not the victim. It is not your ox that was gored. I am much more concerned with the victims of adultery than the perps. Like Dr Harley said about the "suffering" of the perp: "that is a life lesson to be learned."

I have been a recruiter for various companies over the years, and I know some who have purposely steered clear of those who commit adultery.

I hope the website gains notoriety so more people will think twice before they commit adultery. IF I knew my name was going to be published on a notorious website, I might think twice before having an affair.

Bottom line is if I do something cruel and reckless to someone, I am not entitled to secrecy about it. That person has the right to tell anyone and everyone what I did regardless of whether I feel I have "suffered enough" or not. My "suffering" was a direct result of my dumb choices, after all; the victims was not.

And I say this as a person who has a reckless past and has treated others horribly. I have been forgiven much, but I am not arrogant enough to ask my victims to shut up and protect me. I have no such entitlement.

Telling the world that your spouse has betrayed you in the most horrible way is NOT "punishment."

Very much agreed.
And, honestly, if one is truly repentant then I do not understand why that person would fear having their past exposed. The fear of exposure is a very wayward mindset.

Exposure is not about making the wayward "suffer." You understand that, right?

I think this is a completely terrible thing to post, and I am in disbelief that something so insensitive would be said here on this forum of all places.

Agree. This is a statement devoid of empathy.

Exposure was one of the hardest things I have ever done in my life. It still makes me sick to think of it today.

I remember thinking to myself, "How dare WxH put me through this hell again!" with each phone call and email I had to make.

It had NOTHING to do with wanting to "punish" anybody.

How do you define 'suffered enough'? What does that even mean?

Look, I am all about R after an A and focusing on the future. Living it now. I love the efforts my FWW is making.

But I can tell you that even though we are working to the future and my resentment is fading...if my W EVER made this comment to me or posted it on this board?..well..it would be a massive LB'er. Many LB units would be lost in her account.

Personally, I love the home wrecker sites! If it wouldn't be such a trigger for me, I would probably post the POSOM's info on it. But I know that would do more damage to myself and our R then the benefits it would bring.

If you think of your reputation as being your own property, you might feel that other people don't have the right to damage it.

If you think of your reputation as consisting of other people's opinions, and those opinions as being their property, not yours, then you would feel more likely to respect their right to their opinions.

I don't feel that my reputation is my property - I feel like it belongs to other people, because it is their opinions.

Zhamila, you interfered in someone else's marriage. You brought devastation not just to your own marriage but to someone else's too - your own mother-in-law, who was given no say in having her marriage destroyed by you. To paint yourself as "just a single mom doing the best she can for her children" after tearing two families apart is horribly insensitive and dishonest.

If you were on that website, you would not be the victim in this story. As someone whose marriage ended after the affair you are not the victim. There are many victims and none of them is you. You are the perpetrator of a vicious act on another woman, and a vicious act on your own children and your ex-husband.

You feel like you've suffered enough. At what point do you think that this woman, your mother-in-law, suffered enough?

Writer1,

I think you wrote about searching for yourself in that database, just type in something like homewrecker.com jane in google or jane doe, and it will give you a number of hits.

Oftentimes the google search is better than the local search on many websites.

God Bless
Gamma

Yes, she knows. And they are now divorced.

I think the concern I have about a site like this is that it does seem more slanted toward revenge than exposure. Exposure, as I understand it, is supposed to be directed at people who have some influence over the wayward - spouse, children, family members, friends, co-workers. This site seems more directed towards publicly shaming the wayward to mostly strangers who just happen across the site and see their name and photograph. Most of the strangers who read this information likely don't even know any of the parties involved and would therefor be of little help in ending the affair, which I believe is the main point of exposure.

The fact is, I have had no contact with my OM for 4 1/2 years. I am honestly mortified by my actions during that time. I destroyed someone else's family and there's nothing I can do to change that. It is something I will have to live with for the rest of my life.

The only thing I can do is work everyday at becoming a better person, wife, and mother. Maybe some of the other waywards on that site are trying to do that too, but if that's the case, it certainly isn't being included in the portrait of them that is being put out there. If someone gets put on this site because of a past affair, should their profile stay there indefinitely regardless of any and all efforts they make to change?

This website, in particular, is aimed at the OP, not the spouse, though. We can't possibly know who has influence over the OP.

And of course they are publicly "shamed." As they should be. When you do something shameful, you should feel ashamed.

I agree with that. And all of the "former" waywards I know do indeed feel a great deal of shame.

My question was, should the public shaming have no end? Should someone who has had an affair, ended it, cut off contact with their OP, and then changed their behavior have to have their picture and personal information displayed on a site like this forever?

Why not? Shouldn't they feel ashamed for life? Is there a statute of limitations on the shaming of people who do shameful things? I feel ashamed of my bad deeds even after 30 years. I have changed myself dramatically too. Does that entitle me to anything? No, it does not. If there is any kind of "limit" shouldn't it be applied to the suffering of their victims?

Public shaming is a job hazard of having an affair. When you have an affair you take the risk of having your behavior publicly exposed forever.

In the case of infidelity, the suffering of the cheaters victims usually has no end.. My 31 year old son still suffers to this day from his dad's affair in 1999. He didn't ask for that. Think I care one whit if my XH's skank is publicly shamed years later? The answer would be no.

I don't get this defensive posture, writer. As someone who did horrible things in my 20's, if I were exposed on that site [not for an affair but for other things] what would I have to defend? My behavior was indefensible.

I would say, "yes, that is true. I did a despicable thing and I am deeply sorry."

If the story is true, why object?

Additionally, you can search by state with: "homewreckers in ______enter state___" in their search engine and the homewreckers in that state should come up.

Radio show #1 [1-27-14] http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=5736#

Radio show #2 [1-29-14] http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=5748#

I guess I thought that's what repentance and grace are for: a fresh start, learning from mistakes of the past and doing better in the future. Dr. Harley even talks about not 'dwelling on mistakes of the past' in conversation, when the person has repented and changed their behavior. I wonder where this site fits into that thinking?

Maybe I'll go read the Scarlet Letter again.

Except you are not that person you were in your 20's anymore. You have grown, changed, matured, and learned from your mistakes. I don't see how it serves anyone to keep throwing them back in your face forever if you no longer do those things.

If something like this could indeed cost someone their job or prevent them from being able to secure employment, for a mistake they might have made 5, 10, even 20 years ago, but have made amends for, that seems counterproductive to everyone involved. My BH would also continue to suffer indefinitely if my profile were listed on such a site and it prevented me from working, not to mention the constant reminder it would be to him of the affair to have something like this out there for the rest of our lives.

There is a way to expose an affair that doesn't involve plastering someone's face all over the internet and then labeling them as a homewrecker for the rest of their lives. I refuse to be eternally defined by my mistakes, mistakes I have learned from and am no longer making.

Exactly.

That is good. They should embrace that shame, not run from it. Shame is a signal that one has a conscience.


I guess I thought that's what repentance and grace are for: a fresh start, learning from mistakes of the past and doing better in the future. Dr. Harley even talks about not 'dwelling on mistakes of the past' in conversation, when the person has repented and changed their behavior. I wonder where this site fits into that thinking?
[/quote]

Do you feel that grace is an entitlement program for wayward wives? Do you feel entitled to something from your victims?

I don't think anyone is saying they are entitled to grace. It is something that has to be earned, not merely given.

And I would certainly never ask for anything from my OM's BxW. I don't expect her to forgive me. I don't expect anything from her at all. But it wouldn't change anything if she decided to plaster my face all over homewreckers.com. It wouldn't accomplish anything at all at this point. I am no longer a danger to her marriage (which has been over for 5 years) and I'm not a danger to anyone else's either, since I no longer engage in that sort of horrible behavior. So who would benefit from something like that occurring at this point?

I would have no problem with it because it is the truth. How can a truly repentant person argue with the truth? That makes no sense. The truth is the truth.

If someone says "ML was a rotten stinking drunk who went drunk driving" what would be wrong with that? It is simply stating truth. I can't blame anyone for stating truth.


But that is a consequence of bad behavior. Bad behavior can cause people problems throughout their lives. I know people who have done LESS than commit adultery who have paid for 30+ years.


I think the more people who know, the better. The more people who know, the more people to hold you accountable. Accountability is a good thing, not a bad thing.

If you knew your name was going up on such a website, wouldn't you think twice about committing adultery? I know I would!!

Dr Harley felt it was very beneficial and so do I. He mentioned how when the photos of "johns" who visited prostitutes in Oregon had their photos published that prostitution went way down.

Writer1 et al,

One point though, is that this site is the exception and not what betrayed spouses/sos' typically do. I suspect their are 200x as many postings on sites like Ashley Madison etc.

More commonly the betrayed spouse hides away, weighed down by their failure to keep their wayward spouse faithful to them.

I don't think the short stories on that website even add up to 1% of the horrible things the waywards tell their affair partners about their BSs'

God Bless
Gamma

Certainly, but I already did, years before this site existed. Not much that can be done about that.

It was my understanding that the site existed to let people know about "homewreckers" who are actively involved in affairs with married men, sort of a warning to other married women to watch out for these people if they happen to know them, since they might be a danger to someone else's marriage as well.

But a truly repentant wayward is not a danger to anyone's marriage. They aren't actively involved in an affair. They have learned their lesson and because of the damage their actions caused, they are very unlikely to ever repeat the behavior again.

So my question is still, what would be accomplished by posting the name and picture of a repentant wayward to a site like this and then leaving that posting there forever?

I believe someone also posted that Dr. Harley was in favor of taking down the profiles on these sites of waywards who have repented and are no longer committing adultery. But I don't know if sites like homewrecker.com actually do that.

I haven't checked it out, but my perception is that they do post current and past homewreckers. I read something to the effect that the cheaters are not removed so that would mean, once the story goes up it stays long after the affair dies.

And I don't believe a repentant wayward would mind his/her name being on there. Why would he? Unless he was actively denying his past.

He said if the wayward could PROVE to him he/she had repented he would consider taking their name down.

I wonder how many betrayed spouses here on the MB forum will post their wayward spouses and affair partners on this site. And if it will somehow compensate them for their suffering.

If I could turn back time, I would undo what I've done. But I cannot. If there were a way to take away the pain of my actions, I would do it. Unfortunately, public shaming won't make up for it either.

The only thing I can do is continue learning and growing and becoming a better person. Make my children's lives as smooth as possible under the circumstances, and teach them not to follow in my footsteps. I'm not sure public shaming would enhance my children's lives, or my ability to mother them. In fact, I suspect it would make the situation even worse: which is what my original comment was alluding to.

Just don't think the public shaming thing will help either my xH, my xMIL, or my kiddos at this point. Hey, if it did, I'd support it all the way.

I think there are a lot of people who would object to having every one of their past mistakes, no matter how long ago they occurred or what they have done to change and become a better person, plastered all over the internet for everyone to see forever.

The fact is, we don't broadcast every single mistake anyone has ever made forever for all the world to see. So why should we do that in the case of adultery?

I think that making one's crimes public makes you a safer person, so that helps others. If others know what you are capable of in your most private moments, that makes you a safer person because others are watching. Wouldn't you agree that you should be ashamed of what you did? I know I would be. I am very ashamed of my own behavior back in my 20's. That is a sign of decency. Not something to flee from.

Keep in mind, it is bad to commit adultery and destroy families. It is not bad to expose such despicable behavior. It is just stating the truth.

Talk about defining deviancy down. We are not talking about garden variety "mistakes." I made a "mistake" when I ordered the wrong color rug from Macy's.

We are talking the devastating crime of adultery. People kill themselves, commit homicide. Families are destroyed. Marriages are destroyed. Children's families are broken up.. Lives are never the same.

We do publish the pictures of sexual predators and other criminals for a reason: so society can watch out for them. That is a good thing, not a bad thing.

x2

Unless the "benefit" is revenge exacted against the wayward: then the site is perfect!

An eye for an eye...

In that case, shouldn't we create a site exposing ALL past bad behavior? Shouldn't every alcoholic, drug abuser, shop lifter, cheater, etc., etc. have their mistakes posted on similar sites dedicated to each and every possible act of wrong-doing imaginable?

You seem to be advocating a position that says everyone should be eternally punished for every wrong-doing they have ever committed. There should be no repentance, no second-chances, no opportunity for redemption. A person should rightfully be punished and suffer unlimited consequences for every wrong act they have ever committed regardless of whatever else they may or may not accomplish.

I can't speak to the reasons that betrayed spouses expose their rapists, but I think it is a good idea to get it out there regardless of the reason. Just like we post photos of sexual predators, rapists and other criminals, I see this as a way to keep society safer.

I view this as a service to society.

The difference between you and me is that you view the TRUTH as a "punishment." It is not. I do not view the truth about me as "punishment." It is simply the truth. And a truth of MY OWN MAKING. Almost everyone in my life knows I am a recovering alcoholic. I don't try to deny my past.

I have nothing to hide.

I am baffled why anyone who claims to be repentant would object to the truth being spoken about them? Why fight it? Why not just say "yep, I did that!!"

True, with the important difference that these are people who have been tried in a court of law, found guilty by a jury of their peers beyond a reasonable doubt, and sentenced by a judge, who then orders them to be added to the registry.

I seriously doubt anyone posting things on sites like homewrecker.com have gone through a similar process.

We aren't talking about someone who has been tried and convicted in a court of law of a crime here.

"Everyone in your life." That's the difference.

Everyone in my life knows about my affair as well, and I'm fine with that. I don't deny it or try to make excuses for anything that I have done. I own up to my mistakes - to everyone in my life.

But the internet can be accessed by literally everyone on the face of the planet. I doubt seriously that you broadcast your status as an alcoholic to every single person on the planet. What would even be the point of that?

I do agree that adultery should be treated as a crime!! And so does Dr Harley. That would be great if that were the case. Have you ever read his book, Defending Traditional Marriage? In that book, he makes the case that there should be criminal and civil penalties against adultery. Wouldn't that be great?

The reason sexual predators are published is because they continue to be a danger to society - studies have shown that these people continue to sexually assault, even after extensive intervention.

This is not the case with adultery: we see marriages recover from adultery on this forum all the time! If adulterers were a continual menace to society and to their spouses, then MB would not exist and Dr. Harley would not have spent his career helping marriages survive and thrive after affairs.

BTW, other types of criminals are NOT published because the devastation wrought by a lifetime of public shaming far outweighs the risk to the public. This is a choice on the part of our criminal justice system: to help offenders become productive members of society once more.

Has anyone read Les Miserables? It's quite an amazing story about crime, repentance, continued punishment by society, and ultimately - redemption wrought by grace.

"She who has been forgiven much, loves much." - Jesus

That's a fair question. In Oregon, the state Labor Commissioner publishes the names of construction contractors that have repeatedly violated the state labor laws. Their names are pblished on his state website and they are banned from performing public works projects.
In Kentucky, the state tax department publishes the names of deadbeat taxpayers on a government website.
There are many such examples of government agencies publishing names of those who violate laws.

Adultery destroys the family. Who places more of a threat to the local community? A deadbeat taxpayer from KY, a cheating contractor from Oregon...or a homewrecker down the street?

Who is more of a threat to the local family?

I think it would be. But until it is, you can't really compare exposing adultery on a site like homewreckers.com to the National Sex Offender Registry, because it's just not the same.

There's really nothing stopping someone from posting an innocent woman's picture on that site simply because they don't like them. There has been no court case to prove the guilt of any of the people on that site. I'm sure most of them are true, but if even one false profile is listed on the site, it's likely to open a huge can of legal worms that could involve costly lawsuits. With the sex offender registry, the person being required to register has already been found guilty by a court of law, so that really isn't an issue.

Posted again, because I think some may have missed these.

And many adulterers do commit the crime again if they are not held accountable. This is a great way to hold them accountable. They are a danger to marriages and children's families. The more people who know, the safer she will be.


Being ashamed of being bad is a good thing, not a bad thing. You should be ashamed when you commit despicable acts! Since adultery is a crime that reaps so many victims, it is a great idea to publish their names.

I can't think of a better way to protect society.

On a recent radio show broadcast, Dr. Harley expressed frustration at the high number of adultery cases when military personnel are overseas and men are pursuing their wives at home....Harley suggested that the government should make examples of a few of these men and send them to prison for 20 years and a lot of the adultery would stop.....

Okay, but none of your examples involve someone who is merely being accused of something by another individual. They all involve people who have committed a verifiable crime that they have been convicted of.

What's to stop somebody from posting the profile and photos of somebody on homewrecker.com simply because they don't like them and want to harm their reputation?

I do compare it because it is exactly the same principle. Exposing people in a such a public way is helpful to all concerned: to the perp, her victims, her future victims, etc. An adulterer is just as dangerous to society as a sexual predator or any other criminal. Sadly, it is not against the law anymore.


The courts are not the arbiters of all truth, though. And of course, no one wants to see an innocent man/woman accused publicly of something they did not do. I hope the website is taking care to prevent that.

Z, writer, this is getting ridiculous. No one is advocating eternal punishment for the wayward or any other such nonsense.

It is not a punishment to have your affair (past or present) exposed. It does not harm you, except for maybe your pride. My affair was 3 years ago, and Markos is free to discuss it with anybody he sees as necessary.

Frankly, I tend to welcome the light of day into my life. It makes me a better person.

The fact is, they are online. If someone drives drunk and gets arrested or goes shoplifting and is caught, such information is easily found on the internet. Most city and county courts offer online access to court records as do many police departments.

Adultery is one of the few moral crimes that is legally sanctioned in our legal system so it is not found on most government websites....

Do you imagine that the courts are the arbiters of all truth? They are not, I assure you. People make false accusations against others every day. I would say that this website is not any more immune to that than our criminal justice system.

I so agree and am baffled by that perspective. How is the truth a "punishment?" I thought that committing adultery and destroying families was the "punishment!"

It is not a "punishment" to tell the truth about me. If someone says I was a turd and a bad guy, I would just agree with them!

I think that perspective comes from someone who is in denial.

I do think there's a huge difference between my husband discussing our situation with someone he knows, and having a story posted on the internet with my name and face on it for everyone in the world to read.

Nothing, but nobody owns their own reputation. If people lie about you, the best solution is to tell the truth. Everybody is entitled to make up their own mind.

Anyway, this is kind of a sidetrack from the main situation we would be concerned about here, which would be cases where it IS the truth.

I doubt the website has any type of verification process.
People come to this website daily and sometimes its hard to get any information out of them; and most waywards will lie about the nature of the affair anyways.

The fact is, the website owner is probably just a businessperson trying to make a profit in a niche area. There are ads on the website, which probably pay for the hosting and generate profit for the owner.

In the past, I operated a few websites and it's a lot of work to maintain; I dont think it would be possible for a website owner to verify adultery on a free website.
The person that owns this website may own 100 other ones...

Dr. Harley said he supports "the idea of exposure" and that was how he supports the concept of the homewrecker site.

I agree.. If I ended up on one of those websites I would have to put on my big girl panties and take it.

I messed up and I know "trying to hide" from it, means I haven't learned anything from my huge mistake.

It's part of my consequences.

Of course I don't think the courts are the arbiters of all truth, but I do think sites like this are a breeding ground for false accusations and potential lawsuits. Last I checked, libel and slander were still against the law too.

What's wrong with having your name and photo posted on the internet with the facts about your affair?

Don't use the site, then. Other people don't feel that way, and are happily using it.

We will see! However, I have seen thousands of exposures on this site over the years and there has not been ONE libel/slander lawsuit.

That's no reason not to post truth, though.


Yes, but we could debate ethically whether that should be in the law or not. I'm not sure if the moderators would let me post links to the material I've read on the subject, but I'd start with the position that I respect others having the right to have their own opinions: I don't have the right to control them. If people think ill of me and don't want to listen to my side of the story, I just don't deal with them, and we all move on.

Also, if something is truly a crime, ethically speaking, the response needs to be proportional. For example, we don't shoot people for ignoring a "keep off the grass" sign. "Libel" and "slander" laws don't seem to mandate a proportional response and so could be very reasonably described as unjust laws.

In a nation that has had laws like ours (assuming we all live in the U.S.) it would be very hard indeed to use the law as any sort of a standard for right and wrong.

It's a violation of my privacy. It would be the same as anyone posting anything else about me on the internet without my permission. I value my privacy a great deal.

Do you have a web site posting your status as an alcoholic? Do you wear a T-shirt everyday publicly stating that you are an alcoholic?

Yes, you may choose to divulge this information to people you know for a variety of reasons. But I seriously doubt you advertise the fact that you're an alcoholic all over the internet.

yep, yep, agree. Others love the sight and that is what counts!

I had a friend (probably deceased now, he was old when I knew him), that used to work for the utility company in Southern California.
He told me...that some women would call and complain about their pilot lights going out only to get men to their homes.
The men would get there and the woman would be barely clothed and want sex...

If this is happening down the street, and a betrayed wife angrily places the womans name and picture on an exposure website, it is good in the respect that other people in the neighborhood will know to keep their husbands away from her.

The book of proverbs is full of warnings to young men to stay away from adultresses

I don't believe it is against the law to state the truth. It is against the law to slander or libel, but the truth is a defense to that.

And even if you did, it still wouldn't be the same, because it would be YOU divulging this information about YOURSELF and not someone else doing it for you.

These OW are not advertising their whoredom. It is being done by their victims. The victims have every right to state the truth about them. My victims have every right to put my picture on the internet or take out a billboard! I have nothing to hide and I do not deny the truth.

Your right to privacy has nothing to do with exposing the truth. I would object to anyone posting my photo anywhere for any reason without my permission. And this is against the law. It's the reason why newspapers and such have to have you sign a waiver before they use your photograph.

You don't have any such right to privacy. We have freedom of speech in this country. But if you believe that this website is breaking the law, why not call the police on them? See how far you get?

But privacy is like education: it's up to you to secure that for yourself. It's not something we are entitled to at the expense of other people.


It does not follow from that that you have the right to restrict the behavior of others, though. If you value your privacy, shut your curtains - don't enforce your privacy by threatening people who happened to see inside when they walked past your home while the curtains were open.


Yes she does - it's called forum.marriagebuilders.com


It seems to have factored into many of the 50,000 posts she's written...

Have you watched the TV Show Cheaters?
They broadcast it on national TV.

Good point Jedi.

My guess is that these agencies and individuals are unrepentant: i.e. repeatedly violated the law, continually refused to pay taxes, and have made no effort at compensation or changing behavior. If one of these agencies in good faith made amends, then I daresay their name would be removed.

The benefit of government exposure is help others avoid that agency and to shame the perp into making amends/paying taxes, etc. But once the taxes have been paid, or the agency is again operating in an ethical manner, then I don't understand what benefit would be gained by putting a past-offender's name on the site.

I guess I'm talking about repentant, non-re-offending people who committed adultery in the past. Not those continuing to do so.

Is the general consensus, "Once a cheater, always a cheater?"

I have been so encouraged that I could learn and grow by following Dr. Harley's materials, and become a super-duper good spouse. I'm still working toward that, and I'm gonna keep it up, no matter what.

Your OM's BW has every right to post about you if she sees fit. You are in no position to deny her that right.

Your focus is too much on you instead of your victims. You are focusing on your shame instead of the trauma you caused in the life of another woman.

It does not harm you to have your deeds exposed to the light. It is not revenge for the BW to say "This woman destroyed my family." Did you do it? Then be gracious enough to not stomp your foot and whine that the BW is somehow harming YOU.

I really don't think that proves much of anything.

writer,
You seem very upset about this website.
It reminds me of when my dear late friend was upset about kenneth Starr investigating Bill Clinton. My friend was furious that Clinton was being held accountable for his affair with Monica Lewinski and all of the perjury and lies that followed as a result of it.

My friend felt that it was "nobody's business"...

People expose on media all the time, in fact one of our top generals was recently exposed for having an affair with a reporter. if these top people, including the former President, can't legally stop the exposure then why do you feel it's illegal slander and libel?

No, of course not! But the consensus IS that reformation involves becoming open to having your deeds examined in the light of day. The consensus IS that the most important thing to do to reform and recover is to expose yourself, reveal yourself to your victims, and accept whatever consequences result. If that means the person wants to go get support by telling the world, then a reformed former cheater respects their need.

In general, one of Dr. Harley's beliefs is that we would all be better people if we couldn't keep secrets. We would be less likely to do hurtful and wrong things if we knew that we would be found out. He talks about this often - are you listening to the radio show? There's lots of great wisdom there.

Oh no. No one cares if rapists, sexual predators and johns are repentant or not. That is not the point of publishing their photos and names. And who would judge that anyway? Anyone knows how to claim to be repentant; doesn't mean its true. The point is to alert others to someone who may be dangerous to them.

That is certainly the case with adulterers. If others know what you are capable of, they can help hold you accountable and protect themselves from you.

But why would a repentant person CARE if the truth was spoken about them? That is the puzzle here. The only possible explanation I can fathom is that the person is in denial. If my victims want to put my picture and name on a website, why would I care as long as it is the truth unless I am hiding something?

Well, I can answer that question. I was formerly involved with some of the names that went on the list and its governed by law. As I recall, its 3 years in Oregon of the Labor Commissioner list.
In Kentucky case, its until the tax is satisfied.
In Ohio, we have a Plumbing License board that will publish the names of suspended licenses indefinitely because that is what the law requires.

There is no law with what a website prints.
It is freedom of speech.

That's not what the site we're talking about is about, though, is it? Did you read Dr. Harley's comment that if he was running the site he'd have a policy of removing names after affairs were ended and amends made?

I think some of you guys are really jumping into an emotional reaction and not taking in all these details.

Z I know that you had an affair, and I also know that was TWO marriages ago. For goodness sake, Z, I don't think of you as a WW or even a FWW. That was eons ago. It has no bearing on your current posting here - and it has no bearing on the fact that people whose spouses are in an affair have a LOT of benefit to gain from exposing the affair. We all ought to support them and certainly ought not to bring our own feelings in to deny them the support they need.

EXACTLY.

That's the hard part, Markos. I still think of myself as a WW. Yes, I am emotional about it because I can never, ever undo what I've done. It sucks to know that I destroyed my family - me.

Anyway, homewreckers includes affairs that happened years ago. And it doesn't seek exposure for the sake of ending affairs, nor talk about repentance and reformation. The feeling I got from it was pure anger and salacious content. If I saw people getting support for their marriages, gathering help by exposure, that would be AWESOME! But this was just venom - completely understandable venom of course - but that was all I saw. Maybe they just wanted to express their anger and this helps their healing? I guess I can understand that.

It DID help me see - again - how much pain I caused. I will give it credit for that.

And I'd be grateful if my name were removed because of repentance. I did read that part from Dr. Harley.

I think you are seeing it through the prism of your own guilt, though. Anger about injustice is a sign of decency and is very therapeutic. Would you condemn rape victims for expressing "venom" towards their rapists? Would you judge and condemn them?

I would surely hope not.

I would try and view this as Dr Harley does: as a lesson to be learned by those who committed adultery. That is a good thing, not a bad thing.

And most importantly, I would remember that they are the victims. They did not ASK to be in that position in the first place. The adulterers in their lives forced that on them against their will.


A good thing!

Yep - the anger was perfectly understandable.

As to anger at injustice being therapeutic, that's a good point - I don't really get angry at injustices toward me (something I'm working on, actually) so when I come up against it, it sort of freaks me out a little bit. But I like your analogy, really drives it home.

Angry people do freak me out, though. Has nothing to do with guilt feelings in me...more about a scary childhood.

This is hard to explain, but I'll try. I would like to think that I am not defined entirely by this horrible thing I did. I would like people to see me as a person. Fully human, and flawed of course. But if the first - the only thing - anyone sees when they meet me is a big red A on my jacket, then I will miss out on so many friendships, relationships, on the joys of connection. Sure, some people might see past it, but most people cannot. Even though I am NOT an 'adulteress,' any longer, if I continue to be defined as such, then I will despair.

Prisca, you're still married to Markos. You're lucky. Some of us are alone - rightly so - and all we have is the hope that someone will find us worthy of loving someday. I tell everyone I seriously date about my affair - this is only fair to them. But should I put it on my dating profile too? Should everyone know the details of my most shameful actions before they decide whether they even want to meet me?

Maybe you guys think so. And maybe I should consider it.

I am not in denial. I do not hide what I've done. But this world can be a very cold, lonely place. And advertising my past shame just ensures continual rejection, forever.

Yes, people will judge you by your behavior as they should. That is a good thing. How else would they judge you? My alcoholic past is a part of who I am. So are my good aspects. How else will we sum up a person if not by their behavior? There are people in the world who will judge me for being an alcoholic. As they should. That is the truth about who I am. And every person has the right of discernment when they choose their friends. Some people HATE alcoholics and that is their right. How will they know to avoid me if I hide that fact?

Victims of adultery had no choice in the matter, but you did. Any judgment that you receive is a direct result of your own actions. People get to choose their friends based on whatever criteria they decide. They are supposed to use discernment. Many people won't want to be friends with you, but some will. That is their right.

Put another way, when you hurt people they have a right to tell everyone and anyone they choose. Being exposed is a job hazard of destructive behavior. No one but you put you in that position.

Z, it's my job to oversee 'public shaming'. That's what it is called sometimes, by a select few. Only what I call it is the truth.

We truly live in a free speech society where people who have truthful facts about us can tell whoever they please. For as long as they please.

I gently suggest you wrap your head around that, because it is a basic fact of life and of reputation.

I get calls from remorseful people who are in my newspaper and online news site all the time. One lady who shoplifted was distraught I had covered her court case. She said she had repented as soon as she had done it and asked how long her name would be on our website.

I didn't take Dr H's 'prove remorse' approach. I told her forever. Forever - and I still don't have much sympathy with her over that. That's what happens when we damage our reputations. A criminal penalty lasts for only a time but any damage to our reputations always lasts forever.

That's how I feel about a misdeed like shoplifting! Compare the damage of that crime - which comes automatically with public exposure - to a deed like infidelity in which people bizarrely expect lifelong secrecy. Or for just a select few to know. Why would anyone who has wrought such damage expect such extreme favour?

Reporters and news outlets expose petty and serious crime. We also expose things which aren't illegal at all - just plain old immoral.

We don't do it because we take glee in hurting people, or as financial vultures of shame either. Two things the exposees are quick to accuse us of.

People knowing the truth about each other is a key cog in how society works. It's why the courts and laws not just allow, but ENCOURAGE, such truth telling. This is the UK. Aren't the laws in the US even more adamant about free speech?

I've never done anything I'm seriously ashamed of and I can't really empathise with your pain over it, Z. It just reads very oddly to a BS that you are trying to pick over and cover up the truth simply because time has passed. So what?

Particularly since a BS feels shame at what was did to them yet has to face it down publicly every day. Some people will always wonder what I did to deserve it. I will always have a failed first marriage and will have to put up with people wondering why or I will have to explain why. She won't.

Cest la vie.

If I did do something that truly shamed me, I would hope I could accept the damage to my reputation with grace.

One colleague of mine got busted for DUI. Driving is integral to the job and his future career prospects. When he went to court, and the story went online he did not object to his colleagues covering it; he said: "Live by the sword, die by the sword". I think that's when our boss knew that he was going to be OK in the future.

One heroin addict I put into the newspaper regularly now goes in of his own accord. He works with the police and with young people to prevent his downfalls happening to others.

That's how public exposure helps motivate people to grasp back their reputation and never let go. I still have the proof of my XH's affair but I won't be exposing the OW online as I am not really interested in helping motivate her in that way. It could transform her life but I did enough to help her at the time.

I think the concept surprised you, but really the concept is as old as free speech itself.

You should have expected it and that's why I don't sympathise.

When I first came here I heard Pepperband say: "Never do anything you would be ashamed to have go in the newspapers".

How true that maxim is. There have been many times when I have written about personal, private moments which happened between two or three people. They were not doing anything illegal. However it ended up in the press because it was a
fact and it got out.

The truth does. It is like a starburst that cannot be kept under anyone's hat.

If you really would "do anything" to take away the BW's pain how about the basic grace of allowing her tell the truth however and whenever she wants?

The fact they would object is irrelevant. Why shouldn't 'every' immoral mistake be told publicly, anyway? If there were more reporters in the word, it would. We are doing the best we can and with the internet there are more reporters than ever before!





I find it alarming in the extreme that you can define HER marital tragedy as YOUR privacy. It happened inside the BW's marriage, in her private space, not yours. It was her ox being gored and it is totally up to her who she tells.

Being in someone else's marriage is like being in someone else's house. It's like breaking into someone's house and expecting them not to tell. You don't have any privacy there!

Additionally, as all reporters know; privacy is a myth. We allow it, like a drawn curtain in daily life for each other as a courtesy but when something goes wrong your life is subject to public scrutiny.

One time I wrote about a truly private thing - the mistake of a 17yo girl. She decided to have car sex with her ex bf, who had put them on speaker phone so her current bf could hear them.

I told the world about that young girl's mistake online. It was not even my own, or my newspaper's decision to do so. The law decreed it should be publicly told because it was evidence in a murder trail. She did not know there would be a murder. Do you think she expected her private life to be broadcast in such a way?

What we do in this life, the truth about ourselves, is public property. Never do anything you would be ashamed to have appear in the newspapers.




Would you want to live in a country where you needed court-ordered approval to tell the truth? You would be living in a fascist state if you did.

When someone has wrongdoing to expose through my newspaper, I say: "Do you have proof?" If they do; job done and we go to print. I don't need a court's approval to tell the truth.

Neither does this, or any other website and I am shocked any member of a free society would suggest such a thing just because they are ashamed of their own actions.

We BS's know how easy it is to prove adultery and expose it because we have done it ourselves. We don't need to go to court.



Lets say this happened to me - someone who has never been an OW. Lets say the OW from my marriage were to try it as revenge for the VAST public exposure I did to her. This is something that could really happen!

What would I do? I'd laugh long and merrily at such a pitiful and short-sighted move on her part. Then I would call up the website. If they didn't take it down I would sue both them and the OW for a very handsome amount of money and retire on the profits, still laughing.

It would also destroy the website and they would deserve it for not checking heir facts and ensuring proof.

However since that is a very easy thing for any cub reporter to do, I suspect they do ensure proof.


You may 'object'(!?) but it isn't against the law at all! Why do people think so?!

Newspapers may ask your permission out of courtesy for features etc but they won't if they want to expose you for wrongdoing. Nor should they.

I would not need to protect my marriage or alert others to be aware of an attack on their marriage from someone shoplifting at Target. Adultery is not 'every single mistake'.

There is a real possibility that these 2 sites have allowed others to protect their marriages against these posted on the sites. If the POSOM in my situation was up there and I would have seen the same person on my FWW's FB friends (former FB acct that is), that would have been a huge help to me!

On the extreme edge of the argument...I know this is extreme..but if Hitler would have repented for the sins of his life right before death, should the history books be sanitized of his atrocities? Of course not. The truth is just that..the truth. Once history is written, it is cemented in time.

Huh? The very first post that I pulled up was from a BW in a case where the OW was refusing to stop contacting her WH after being told that the A is over they are working on saving the M. It's the very first story in the "Recent Posts" section that runs along side the page. She is very much trying to end the affair and save her marriage.



Not only is this a misrepresentation of the site -- there most certainly are BW's posting in an effort to save their M, and in their stories, they are of course, expressing anguish, disgust, hurt and outrage over some of the things the OW has done in an effort to destroy their marriage..."venom" is the last word I would use to describe the stories I read -- but this is the kind of garbage that many BS's are faced with in the aftermath of exposure....being told they are "angry" or "bitter" and "dragging people through the mud won't help" etc.

This is basically a form of gaslighting.

Exactly.

Too bad. Should have thought about the ramifications before you made your choices.

It's called accepting responsibility for your actions. Sometimes the ramifications can not quite what you expected. In this case, Adultery is the most harmful thing anyone can do to a spouse known to man. People want to commit disgusting acts, I say let the full weight of the fallout land squarely on their shoulders.

Trust me, having a photo published on a website pales in comparison to the humiliation, shame and pain that adultery brings to the BS.

This. Is. Gaslighting.

x10000

To me, this is really the point of the website.

The problem with the argument that a FWS is not a threat to anyone is bogus. Here is why. You are judging yourself as being harmless based on your INTENTIONS. Others on the outside can only judge you by your ACTIONS. No one can climb into your head and judge your intentions.

This site protects folks from what others actions/choices were. Not their intentions.

I have briefly considered posting the OW3 on this site...I don't know....I have mixed thoughts and feelings on it.

And you know what?? Honestly, I don't care very much if she has worked on "improving" herself or is "repentant".

According to some on here, I would be spewing "venom" and "hate" and be "vengeful".

I am in disbelief over what I am reading on this thread!

I thought I'd made it pretty clear that this has nothing to do with time passing. It has to do with repentance, new behavior, 32 years before and 6 years after.

If we each had more empathy, this world would be a much better place. If we could feel each others' feelings, we would stop inflicting pain on each other - immediately. I can empathize with lots of people - whether or not I've committed their particular 'crime.' I consider this one of my better qualities, and I live my life looking for ways to improve the lives of the people around me. In fact, my 'crime' has made me more empathetic - so in a way I'm grateful to have left self-righteousness behind. It never served me well anyway And being knocked down a few pegs was likely necessary for my growth.

They certainly can! People can choose to do and say whatever they'd like to! For good, or ill. My point is, there's such a sinister motivation in focusing only on the shameful. I certainly am not raising my children that way. If I continually broadcast their failures, even after they'd proven they were different, what kind of parent would I be? A sh*tty one.

People - and newspapers and websites - certainly can tell whomever they choose. But what a stain on their character for doing so, when the motivation is to hurt and shame others. If the motivation were as a catalyst for change or to protect others - then I can see the benefit. Otherwise, destruction is the goal - and I cannot support it. I'd rather spend my life building people up rather than tearing them down.

True. And years of different actions are what I'm referring to.

I didn't "act" like a WW for 38 years. I "acted" like a WW for 2.

The sum total of my life is not acting like a WW. It's 4.87% of my total years (so far. it gets smaller every day).

Oh boy, a lot of fog in this post!

Isn't the "sinister motivation" to be found in having an affair with a married man? In your husband and children's safe home? I see that as a very sinister act. I see nothing "sinister" in exposing your bad behavior.

Hopefully you will raise your children to understand that there are consequences to be paid when you commit adultery. And that it is a horrendous crime to commit against others. You broke up 2 families! They should know what you did so they will learn a lesson from your mistakes.

Like Harley says this is a lesson to be learned.


The stain is on the person who committed the crime, not on the one who exposed it. Exposure is virtuous, adultery is evil. Your actions stained many people FOR LIFE. FOR LIFE. My son and I still feel the effects of his fathers affair 16 years ago.

I see a lot of blaming the victim going on here, Zhamila. The fog is thick!

This is the language of fogbabble...

Is the damage caused to your victims only 4.87% of their lives? I can see that you happily moved on, but it was not your ox getting gored.

You "acted" like a wayward long enough to destroy 2 families. The fact that you can minimize and justify it tells me that you don't get it. You demand empathy from others but you do not give it in return. There is no sign of empathy in your posts. Just the opposite.

Do you think your MIL feels this way about your adultery? Does your XH feel this way? Do your children minimize the fact that they lost their family over your selfish pursuits with their grandfather? You destroyed many lives with your "4.87%" of bad behavior. It will affect their lives for much longer than that.

How long does a murderer act like a murderer? Sometimes a few seconds. The fraction of your life that it encompasses has nothing to do with qualifying for this dubious status.

What I get most from the homewreckers site and this thread is that, if you have ever committed adultery, that will be the stain you will wear everyday for the rest of your life. It should dominate every single aspect of your existence and be what defines you until the day you die. Nothing you do will ever make up for it.

This does remind me very much of "The Scarlet Letter." I simply see no benefit to be gained from sewing that huge red "A" onto every single article of clothing I wear for the rest of my life, figuratively and literally. I'm pretty glad that, as a society, we did away with that practice in the literal sense long ago. Perhaps some on here would like to bring it back, but I hope that never happens.

I think I just have to accept the fact that MB isn't where I belong. I've long suspected that, but this topic confirms it. Here, I will always be defined by that one terrible thing I did. Doesn't matter if I own up to it, make amends for it, do everything in my power to turn away from it and never do it again. Unless I'm willing to wear that "A" for the rest of my life and agree that it is the most important aspect of my existence and the defining aspect of my character, I will never be accepted here. And I can't do that. And that's okay. I'm okay. Because I'm secure enough in who I really am to know that it doesn't define me.

I think it's time for me to move on now. I have so many other things that I need to focus on, and this has become a distraction for me over time. This site has kept me bogged down in the mistakes of the past and unable to move forward. Life is too short and far too precious to waste it on things that do not benefit us or help us grow as human beings.

I will continue to read Dr. Harley's words in his books and articles. He has a lot of wisdom and a lot of insight and I am very grateful to have those tools at my disposal. But this site is so different from the things I read and hear from Dr. Harley that I just can't see the point in participating any longer.

Really? I don't see that at all, but if you really think so, why don't you notify the moderators on the topics that you think are so divergent?

But that is completely not what anybody has said at all.

Then perhaps you should listen to him when he says that the exposure website is a GOOD thing.

You've got some more growing to do, writer, and I hope you will continue to do so. You are upset about the prospect of having to wear a scarlet letter, but you do not see that you are the only one forcing that on yourself. When you reach the point where you no longer hide in fear from your past, when you no longer need to keep your mistakes a secret, THEN you will be free from your affair. But as long as you insist on your right to secrecy, and vilify your victims for needing public support, YOU hold on to that scarlet letter with a death grip.

Wow, writer. I take personal exception to that remark. I have never posted to you like a WW or even a FWW. NEVER. I have spent many hours writing to you and discussing your situation with Prisca and trying to decide what I could say that would help you, not to mention praying for you.

To have all that dismissed as "here on MB I will always be defined by my affair" is really sad.

You decided to post on this thread and make your past affair an issue. Nobody else decided that for you. It was your decision, and I believe you should own it. Nobody put this thread out saying that you should be listed on such a site. This thread was not about you at all.

How have I ever done that, writer? I have been prompting you to move forward for years. I have been giving you the exact same advice Dr. Harley gives any wife in your situation, with no regard whatsoever to the mistake in your past.

Please do not misrepresent the support I have given you.

If you don't like the website that is mentioned on this thread, don't use it; it's as simple as that. There is no need to go vilify those of us who have given so much to help you for years, just to make yourself feel better about this subject.

Zhamila is another great example of a wife in a troubled marriage that I gave extensive help to NEVER once referencing her status as previously having had an affair. There were other people on the thread beating her up for an affair she had had - IN A PREVIOUS MARRIAGE. It wasn't even an issue and had nothing to do with her new marriage. I think I notified the moderators on dozens of inappropriate posts on her thread.

I stood up and made a stand for a woman who was being mistreated and who was not AT ALL getting the kind of advice Dr. Harley would give. There are other threads where I have done this as well.

I am completely floored that after giving this kind of effort and this much of my personal time I am now seeing people say that on MB they will be forever tagged as an adulterer.

If you want to leave Marriage Builders, leave Marriage Builders ... but don't tell yourself that everybody here wouldn't let you get past a tragic mistake of the past. That is the exact opposite of the advice that you've received for years.

And if you'd like me to keep trying to help people in the way I've been doing in the past, it might be nice to retract some of what you've said here and encourage me to keep going. It's really discouraging to think that everything I've done and said can be so completely dismissed and ignored.

Markos,

I certainly didn't mean to offend anyone. I do very much appreciate all of the support and help I have been given from various people on this site.

And really, this has nothing to do with this particular thread either. I think it just came to light for me while reading it. It's something I've been pondering for a long time.

I think the mere act of reading so many posts everyday dealing with adultery is what has kept me bogged down in the past, and on my past actions specifically. I just don't think it is doing me any good to continue reading posts about adultery anymore, and so many of the threads here deal with that very topic. I just feel like continuing to dwell in that world of infidelity is making me feel stuck inside of it. My affair ended almost 5 years ago. I think I'm ready to focus on more positive aspects of my life. I have a lot of things I want to accomplish, and I have neglected many of them since my affair.

For me, I think it's just time to move on.

Let me help you reach it..

A BS is not 'angry' or 'vengeful' when completing exposure.

Your hand shakes so much with fear. Your heart beats audibly faster. Your face is blood red and hot. You feel you are discussing your own rape. You ARE exposing your own rape.

I exposed and I exposed widely and well. But that wound still hurts and I don't have the bravery to do it all over again on this homewrecker website. I wish I did. It would be the selfless act for the OW and others.

Yet you do not empathise with their pain or bravery - how could you?

I am filled with awe at the bravery of those spouses who do use this site.



That is absolutely correct, yes. There isn't a way to make up for it!

You should know that by now.

Some Former waywards get that - others do not. The ones who still run from the facts bring their past behaviour into the present.

I think there is nothing braver than a former wayward who is brave enough to admit: "Yes I did that".

However denying and hiding the truth - telling others they cannot speak the truth about their pain - it is an extremely shameful stance which is nothing but wayward. This site tells us who DID in the past tense wreck a home once. However your attitude reveals waywardness today - present tense.

You can't read people's minds, though, so you can't really speak about their motivations.

That's really one of the fundamental lessons about here - when a behavior bothers you in a relationship, one of the hardest things to learn to do is to complain about the behavior, not ascribe ill motivations. Doing so is disrespectful. For example, a wife telling her husband "you don't love me" is disrespectful - she needs to learn to say "I'd like you to talk to me more, and it bothers me that you go out with your buddies every night."

Same thing here - you can't talk about people's motivations like that, because you just don't know. I will be the first to say that people should not have angry outbursts, that when they do so they are insane, and that people should NOT be punishing others for their behavior, especially if they want to recover a marriage with them. But that does not mean that they should not expose an affair. The light of day makes us all better people.

writer the biggest problem I see is that Dr. Harley advises a wife to go into Plan B when her husband will not do what it takes to recover their marriage, and you've entered the opposite situation, languishing for years. That has to take a terrible toll on your emotional health.

What happened to the initiative you guys had to get into the online program and finally get some help? Your situation should NEVER have focused on adultery for five years. Your thread has never in my memory been about adultery or your past affair. It's all been about moving forward. Move, my friend. MOVE.

Instead of dwelling on infidelity, follow the plan for recovering a broken marriage. That is a choice you make and has nothing to do with this exposure site. People writing and talking about this exposure website are not preventing you from choosing to follow the plan for fixing your marriage. I really think the biggest problem is that your husband has not gotten on board and has only given lip service for short time intervals.

Any time that we make poor decisions, there is always the chance that it can creep back up to haunt us. I was arrested for having an illegal substance when I was 22 and charged with a misdemeanor (thank God it wasn't a felony). That was 14 years ago. I wasn't a danger to anyone; I was only having a good time. However, it will always be on my record. It doesn't define who I am. Yes I made a mistake. And anyone with Google can find this out. It's something I have to live with. Am I a bad person? Nope. Did I behave wrecklessly? Yes.

Being a BS, I don't want my FWW to carry a scarlet letter around for the rest of her life. I want us to move to the future with lessons learned and to never repeat this horrible history again.

I get what you are saying. I can personally say I have taken extended breaks from MB not because there isn't great advice and insight, more that by reading all of the sad stories day in and day out it has (at times) influenced me to dwell on the past. It can plant seeds of reminders.

Nothing wrong with taking a break! I do believe it can trigger folks. It has me many times.

The moderators will remove posts that are not inline with MB principles. On this subject, it was Dr Harley that mentioned this website on his radio show.
He didnt endorse the website, per se. He said he endorsed insofar as he supports exposure.

Writer1: This is an interesting disclaimer from the home page of the site itself...

The content of all posts and comments on Shesahomewrecker.com represent the opinions of the original poster and are not endorsed, approved or representations of the opinions of Shesahomewrecker.com or its owners. This site may contain adult language and adult concepts. If you are offended by the content please do not visit Shesahomewrecker.com. Shesahomewrecker.com is all about gossip and satire. The content of the posts and comments published contain rumors, speculation, assumptions, factual information and opinions. Some posts or comments may contain inaccurate or erroneous information. Discerning the validity of information, whether found here or elsewhere, is the responsibility of the individual.

I'm glad you keep coming back. New posters need to see real life success stories and talk to people who have survived using MB. That's what keeps me here, knowing that I can help others see the light at the end of a very dark tunnel.

Todays episode of The Test on Fox Channel, had an affairage where the man left his wife and son for a woman 10 years younger.
The son became a drug addict.
The show host is trying to intervene and get him into treatment.

I know that drug use is a matter of personal responsibility HOWEVER if this selfish man had not left his family then maybe this young mans path would have taken different turns.

That is the only reason I come back. There is hope. People CAN R their marriages after an A.
Couples CAN fall back in love and move toward a better tomorrow!

But I my case, I really don't think that would have been possible for us without MB.

JK,

HOWEVER if this selfish man had not left his family then maybe this young mans path would have taken different turns.

I was in a choir awhile back and one of the other members was friends with a prison guard, the prison guard told him that his staying with his wife would almost certainly keep his children out of jail. "because ain't nobody in jail has two parents"

God Bless
Gamma

This might be part of the problem. The thing is, my marriage isn't really bad. My husband isn't abusive. He doesn't commit a whole lot of LB's. He isn't having an affair. There's nothing really to justify Plan B.

My marriage is just sort of so-so. In some ways, it's fine. We have UA time and when we go out, we have fun. Some needs are being met, some aren't. I think my H does a pretty good job with RC and DS, and sometimes the Conversation is fulfilling, sometimes, not so much. Some needs, mostly SF and FS, aren't being met adequately (with SF, it literally isn't being met at all, since we really haven't had any in years). There aren't enough needs being met for me to be passionately in love with my husband, but there isn't anything really terrible going on that would compel me to leave.

So, yes, I limp along in some land that exists between a happy marriage and Plan B/Divorce. And it does make me want to focus on other areas of my life, to look for something that will bring me a greater fulfillment. For me, that's always been my writing, which is the thing I've been neglecting for a long time. I would also like to get involved in some other causes - mostly involving nature and environmental activism - which I feel very strongly about. I'm feeling an urge to have more meaning in my life at this point, and I want to dedicate more time and energy to that.

I think this is a great site. I commend the people here who spend so much time helping others. I just don't know if I'm capable of being one of them at this point.

Writer - I am so saddened by this post. Your marriage sounds just shy of unbearable and you're just accepting it even knowing from this board how wonderful and possible a rewarding marriage is. Why would you or anyone want to live like that? Why would you show your kids day in and day out that this is what marriage is? Don't you want more for them? I ask without malice; I just don't understand.

That's the thing though, it isn't unbearable. It may not be ideal, but it isn't intolerable either.

And really, I can't imagine not being married to my H at this point. We've been together for a very long time. I've lost most of my family in the past year - my mother, my grandmother. My adult children are off doing their own thing and most of them don't live nearby, so while I talk to them on the phone a lot, I don't see them much. Other than my H, the only family I still see on a daily basis is my 5-year-old. I don't think I would be happier if I were to get a divorce and be a single mother to a 5-year-old. I have very few friends. I'm a writer, so my work is almost always done in isolation. It seems that getting a divorce would only make my loneliness worse.

Yeah I remember thinking like that. I'm actually really glad in some ways that my marriage went from so-so (the saddest description of marriage possible!) to intolerable because it forced me to do something.

Things don't limp along and stay the same forever. That isn't how anything in nature works. Things get better or they get worse. You either get the limp fixed or you will lose the leg.

It struck me that there is a lot of guilt in your posts about this homewrecker site, Writer. Instead of viewing it as a place where it might factually report the A, you turned it into a mental vision of public stocks for women in enforced clothes of scarlet. A vision of your own guilt. Instead of a palce where it might say 'Writer did x to my marriage on x date', you made it so much bigger and more insulting than that in your mind.

In your mind it 'forever distinguishes you', in your mind people see you with a scarlet letter. You see the A as something which clothes you, defines you in other people's eyes - it means you are not worthy of happiness.

You are. Of course you are. You are someone who is capable of admitting, owning and fully acknowledging the mistakes of the past and weaving the lessons into a brighter future. You do not have to stay trapped and stuck and you do not have to feel guilty and undeserving forever.

I wish you believed in your own worth.

writer,

I never saw an answer to markos's question.

Whatever happened to signing up for the online program?

What a thoughtful, insightful post, indiegirl.

Thank you Indie. A lot to mull over. For me, I think this sense of worthlessness goes much further back than my own affair. I think I've always felt this way. It goes with the territory of being raised by an unrepentant OW who saw herself as the victim in her affair right up until the day she died. I know it does no good to blame our childhoods for our current problems, intellectually I do know this, but emotionally, well that's another matter.

The entire time I was growing up, I was the closet skeleton, the dirty little secret. Whenever my mom brought me to see my dad - in bars or clubs where he played in a band, at the park during his lunch hour for his day job, when he'd show up in the middle of the night after playing a gig to see her - I was never allowed to ask questions. When my friends asked me about my dad, I wasn't allowed to tell them the truth. I always knew my very existence was a bad thing. It takes a toll on a person's psyche being raised in that type of environment. I grew up shy, quiet, introverted, lonely, ashamed.

I realize now that none of that was my fault. I realize it intellectually, at least. But I just can't figure out how to internalize it emotionally. I still feel like I have to hide my true self from the world, because that's what I was always told to do from the day I was born.

And then I had an affair too, and my mother's biggest threat, that I would grow up to be just like her, came true. I've spent five years trying to figure out how to deal with that. Some days, I think I'm making progress. Other days, I'm not so sure.

I'm sorry that you had such a terrible childhood.
The Bible promises that when we turn our life over to Christ, we are made new...that our sins which once were stained red scarlett are now white as snow.

The real reason you are lonely is that you have decided to be.

You do have friends - us. But we can't put our arms in your arms, our legs in your legs and MAKE you live.

Would you please answer this?

While it seems like this thread got a little off track, I wanted to post why I put kiss' AP on this website.

I had confronted and warned her a few times to stay away from my husband and causing problems for my family. Verbally and in person. She did not listen. She was exposed to her job, and continued. She had many chances to stop destroying lives and did not. To me, she is a dangerous person. I exposed her on this site so that other women know that. The next time she is messing with a married man (and she will, I'm sure) the BW will have that info.

Had she shown any remorse, regret, or anything beyond pure selfishness, had she EVER offered an apology for eternally damaging me, I MIGHT have thought twice about it. But she didn't. She is learning a life lesson.

Understandable, I don't think you need to explain yourself, at all, RQ. Good job!

We talked about it that one time and my husband didn't seem opposed to the idea. But he hasn't brought it up since and no action has been taken. I guess I'm just tired of always having to be the one who does everything. I think I'm getting to the point where I don't really care anymore.

This is why many of us have pushed you to separate. Neglect is traumatic, especially for women, and IS a reason for separation.

I guess what I'm trying to figure out is what constitutes neglect. I know according to MB standards, my H would be considered neglectful. But by other standards, we actually spend far more time together alone doing things than almost any other couple I know in real life. MB isn't the standard for most of the marriages I see, and yet, they don't end in divorce. My friends who only go out a date with their husbands once a month, or maybe even once a year, would consider me insane if I told them my husband was being neglectful because he only takes me out once or twice a week.

What you are going through constitutes neglect.

A marriage merely avoiding a divorce does not equal a successful marriage.

True. But a divorce doesn't equal a successful marriage either.

The truth is, I'm not sure why my feelings for my husband haven't improved. Even when we spend the necessary UA time together, when we go out, have fun, have good RC and good Conversation (two of my top EN's), my feelings just aren't there. I enjoy the time. I have fun. I like my husband. But I don't feel romantically towards him, and I don't know why.

I hesitate to say this, because it always screams "AFFAIR" but I honestly do feel the "I love my husband (as someone I've been married to for a long time and have children with), but I'm not in love with him." And I'm not having an affair. I have no contact with any other men at all, in real life or virtually. There is absolutely no one else.

I always thought once my affair was over and the OM was out of my life completely (as he has been for a long time) that my feelings for my husband would return. I remember how I used to feel about my H. I remember how I used to get excited when he'd come home from work just at the thought of seeing him. Now I don't really care. And the scary thing is, I've gone from not caring but wanting to care, to not caring and not even caring if I care.

We have told you why. You yourself have said why:


Your husband is neglecting you. That's why.

You don't HAVE to do anything about it. But he's not going to change if you don't raise the bar. Your choice.

Maybe I'm not even clear on what I want him to be doing that he isn't currently doing. I guess I need to figure out where the bar would be for me.

There's a place where you can set it that leads to a good marriage. Having it anywhere below there will lead to the same unhappiness you have had for years, and it will only get worse.

Don't pick a custom setting. Pick the one that works.

Marriage Builders is all about educating you where to set the bar to get a good marriage.

writer, this ^^^ doesn't even make sense...which kinda says a lot about your state of mind.

It makes sense if you understand my strange, quirky, sarcastic sense of humor, but don't worry, many people don't.

But divorce is the definition of success if it is to escape a bad marriage. We have many such success stories here. This is not a marriage at all cost program.

I consider my divorce a success story. My marriage was completely unsalvagable and once I recognized that, my definition of success changed dramatically. It's scary but sometimes leaving the marriage is the right answer.

I don't think my marriage has reached the point of being unsalvagable though. I'm not sure how to tell when that does happen. We certainly have our problems, but it isn't all bad.

Writer, I completely understand where you are. I feel the same way

I found this statement so alarming and hauntingly depressing that it kept me awake last night. I couldn't reply to you straight off because I was so freaked out that you believe this sort of marriage is normal and that everyone lives like this. (Together once a month!! I spend more one-on-one time with people I dislike!) Is this really what you think RL is like? It sounds to me to be more like ML - miserable life.

I know your mother and grandmother never gave you a great example of marital happiness. I suppose that also means there are not any people in the extended family who are happily married either. Your mother probably wouldn't have had any happily married female friends. I am however quite shocked that you have never met a single happily married person and that all your friends are neglectful spouses.

My mother and father, parents of three children, grandparents of five and working class people who sneer at psychology and marriage counselling, have always easily spent the 15 hours together. Without breaking a sweat. They married at 21 and would have considered giving up their entire romantic life at that age to be utter madness. They consider ignoring your spouse to be a very silly, modern and possibly made-up phenomena. In fact 15 hours together would have been a bad week. We probably spent more like 20 hours away from our parents as kids. They were always so passionately in love and still are today. That's what their adored grandchildren get to see.

My mother, a stay-at-home stalwart who is the epicentre of our world, quite frankly refuses to believe that people like you and your friends exist. My dad doesn't get why MB is needed. Why do people need buzzwords like UA and RH to care for their spouse and treat them like important people by 'having the time of day for them' he says. To them, Dr H is speaking such obvious common sense they cannot believe he is being paid to spell it out.

Mum: "What is this UA time, dear? It sounds rather complicated."
Indie: "No not at all. It just means Dr H says you should spend 15 hours alone together each week as a minimum."
Mum: "Do these people not like each other? Surely they must make plans to spend their weekends together or evenings? Two weekend days is about 16 hours surely? They cannot be always doing their work or caring for children. Who are they having their fun with, if not each other?"
Indie: "Some people just do not see the need to do it. You remember my WH never did and I wore my tongue out trying to convince him."
Mum: "Well, yes, dear but you never had children and you say many of these people do. At least you could get divorced, start over and find proper happiness. I can't believe people who have children would be so silly. They must have decided they enjoyed each other and would care for one another before having children".

She genuinely does not believe me when I say some married people do not want to date each other!

Dr H says that our upbringings can sometimes cause blind spots in our choice of companions. We are drawn towards people we are used to because their shortcomings feel comfortable. Do you think this might have happened to you? I can think of no other reason why you have chosen such joyless friends.

As my mother says: What DO you all do with the extra time? When you are not caring for kids and working, what are you all doing for fun at the end of the day/week?

There you go. The 'not caring' feelings you describe too, is withdrawal - you are already emotionally divorced.

I think you might actually go for one of those emotional divorce marriages rather than an actual split, quite simply because you care so much more about what other people think than about what you think.



It's your objection to the homewrecker site all over again.

It's the secretive, deceptive 'pretend all is well, little girl' upbringing all over again.

You would rather appear normal, lie and propagate cover ups to maintain a false image of perfection than face the truth of difficult situations.

You are deathly afraid of people finding out you are human, challenged, love starved, fallible and in need of help and support.

You know these lessons of your youth are flawed. So why do you, as Prisca so clearly phrased it, hold on to deception and cover ups "with a death grip". My motto throughout my D was "The truth will set you free". I have never met anyone who is as imprisoned by image and deception as you are.

I wish you were on this site. I am sure the OW on here will be more freed by the truth than you will be.


You are bright and special and you deserve better.

Indie, the thing with most of the married couples I know is that, while they certainly don't spend 15 hours alone with their spouses every week, and think such a thing is impossible when they have children, they all appear to be very much in love. They seem to have good marriages. They claim to be in love with their spouses. Of course, I can't really know how they feel inside, but certainly all of them aren't lying?

I know of three couples who have both adopted several special needs children, and have several biological children too, who literally almost never leave their children with a sitter due to their medical issues. Yet all three of these couples appear to be and claim to be madly in love with each other. I have no reason to doubt them. They certainly seem happier than I am in my marriage.

Yet, my husband and I go out alone together on a regular basis, and we aren't in love. We get at least 10 times more UA time than these couples, but they seem far happier than we are.

I come here and people say that isn't possible. But I see it. I've witnessed it.

The real world, as I've experienced it, is nothing like MB.

Most of the people I know have told me that I'm probably unhappy because I keep coming back here, keep having these unrealistic expectations of what a marriage should be like.

writer;

My 2 cents:

Would you say you feel cherished by your husband? Is it possible this is the missing ingredient?

If you don't, what do you think it would take for you to feel cherished?

Even in the unlikely situation they are happy to spend all their time caring for children with no respite, that's not the case with you. Children are exhausting so perhaps they are superhuman. We do know however that you aren't. You know that you are very unhappy and you and your H are the more human type of couple who requires a break from your work and cares and to have fun.

I've personally never met any superhuman people who never need rest or fun. (Can we hear more about the once a year lady!?) However I have met plenty of martyrs who claim that they do not.

Even if it was really hard to get a 'sitter', don't these children of your friends have anything else going on in their lives? It can't be healthy for any adult to spend 24 hours a day seven days a week caring for children without a break, but ignoring that - what about the poor kids?

It can't be healthy for them to have a worn out parent permanently hovering about them either. Don't they have play dates, or clubs or dance classes or societies? friends? family? sleepovers? I spent a great deal of my childhood with extended family but even children who don't have that need to develop social skills somehow, someway.

Special needs kids need outlets and friends just as much, if not more, than anybody.

Plus they are watching an example of their parents not socialising or having a life either. Which just means this cycle will go on and on. I just don't see the benefit in making life all work and no play and putting that blame on the children who are probably aching for a break themselves.

Translation: "Lets all stick our heads in the sand and it will all go away". This is not the kind of thing that happy people say.

Unhappiness is unhappiness. You are are not making it up.

I'm not sure. I think my husband does cherish me. I think he's certainly trying. He sent me a very in-depth, lovely email this morning for Valentine's Day, expressing a lot of feelings. But I just don't know how to reciprocate them right now. I feel myself pushing him away every time he tries to get too close. I don't even know why I do it. It's like I'm afraid of intimacy.

I know I've always been very stand-offish and introverted. Maybe a personality trait or maybe a product of my upbringing, I don't know. I spent a lot of time alone as a child. My mother said I never liked being touched, even when I was a baby. I cried every time someone tried to hold me. But there were many years in my marriage where I had no problems with affection, touch and intimacy. I don't know why I'm having such a hard time with it now.

Well, two of the families have at least one very seriously disabled child - basically wheelchair bound and unable to even feed themselves. So with them, I don't think playdates or classes or sleepovers would ever be possible. They also have kids with Down's Syndrome and other disorders. One family actually has six adopted children, all of them special needs. I honestly don't know how they do it, but they seem happy and they don't seem to regret the choices they made to bring these kids into their families.

But no, I don't think I could ever do that.

This website has a list of exposure websites:

http://www.ihatecheaters.com/resources/

I'm curious as to how your parents managed this?

Where did you go for that 15-20 hours a week they spent alone together when you were very young? Who provided the childcare?

I know some people have a lot of extended family support, but I have none. I have no family other than my adult children, and most of them live nowhere near me. One lives an hour away, but he works two jobs and is busy starting a business. My MIL and FIL live nearby, but they will only babysit a few times a year, at most. My MIL actually doesn't believe my H and I should leave DD5 as much as we do, even when she doesn't have to baby sit. She thinks we're neglecting her by trying to go out on dates every week.

Right now, the cheapest daycare we've been able to find is a drop-in place that charges $8/hr. for one child. Even teens in our area charge $8-$10/hr. and everyone on sites like Sitter City and Care.com charge at least that much or more. It's ridiculously expensive to find childcare when you have no free options. We've tried doing the childcare exchange thing, but most people think we're crazy for trying to find so much time alone and aren't really open to exchanging more than occasionally.

The expectations are not unrealistic, writer. It's just that a minority of people live in a happy marriage. Some people don't actually know ANYBODY in a truly happy marriage.

It's two totally different cultures. Some people don't know anybody at all in the good marriage culture.

Here are the statistics, as given by Dr. Harley:
40% of marriages end in divorce
20% of marriages end in permanent separation - they do not even live together because they can't even get along
20% of marriages stay together for life but are unhappy - they basically live independent lives in the same house. Most of the marriages I personally know are like this. Most people that I know in person urge people to accept this as the "realistic" expectation for marriage. For some people I know it is an item of their religious faith that marriage is supposed to be like this to test us. They try to find something else to fulfill them. (Many of them I know are major busybodies - their own lives aren't happy, so they interfere in other people's.)

Only 20% of marriages stay together for life and are actually happy.

Almost nobody knows how to have a happy marriage.

I used to make the mistake of looking to marriages I knew. I'd see things they were doing and think "They are making that work somehow." Now I know the truth - they AREN'T making it work. They are miserable! And enough years have gone by that I have seen plenty of them end in divorce.

They are trying to put a good face on it, but they are miserable, and they have no idea that it can be better. They believe they are supposed to just find happiness from within even though they are miserable. They believe they are supposed to find contentment by eliminating their desires - this is a tenet of eastern religious philosophies, although most of the people I know who believe this are actually Christians.

Writer, in the good marriage culture, people do not live like the people in the other culture. They complain to their spouse about the problems; the complaints are expected and welcomed, and the problems are resolved so that they don't pile up. The problems are kept on the front burner until resolved. They don't try to find a way to live with it and be happy.

You are not being unrealistic, writer. It's just that the people you are talking to are in bad marriages themselves and don't know that it can be better and think you are supposed to try to live like this. A lot of people bow to this pressure and their lives are wrecked: they get sick, they become mentally ill, they attempt suicide. They try to force themselves to feel different and it DOESN'T WORK.

And it never will.

I struggle to believe that parents of special needs can have a great marriage without respite. They might say this to your face, but I have a child with autism and behind closed doors, believe me, most of the women in my disabled children's groups are in complete limbo - the marriage is ignored - and they drown themselves in the child's care. I don't live in the US - we have 1 to 2 respite days per WEEK allotted to us as part of disability benefits, because the government recognizes the divorce rate for us is well at 80% (and of that 20%, many are just still married for reasons other than love).

How to pay for childcare?

For us, it's a matter of downsizing. We both make decent wages (over $100k total) and live like we make minimum wage. Used clothing, old cars, discount food. It's a choice.

I wish the U.S. offered the sort of services available elsewhere in the world, but it simply doesn't.

My husband earns right around $50K, I don't work, and we live in an area with a very high cost of living. Downgrading would be hard, since rent is going to be at least half of our income here no matter where we live, and if we want to live in a neighborhood that's safe, it will be more (it currently is). And it seems that my H has been looking for a job in a cheaper area our entire marriage, but in 20 years, we haven't managed to make it happen. I'm trying to think it still can, but it's hard to believe in something you've been trying to do for so long and made absolutely no progress in.

Whatever happened to you planning on moving out of state with the help of your money you received?

Writer, I don't know the exact details of your background but it seems either a relocation or for you to work seems to be the only realistic answer.

Is it realistic to say that one has put 100% into something if they cannot find employment in a lower COL area in 20 YEARS...?

It seems, and in seeing the other posts, that your marriage has gotten so comfortable with drudging along that you guys choose to remain in this limbo.

I don't feel safe moving without some kind of employment set up for when we get there.

The fact is, my H has had the same job with the same company for 15 years. He's applied for thousands of positions over the years and never been hired for a single one. He's very competent at his job, has a decent amount of education (BA and recently, MBA), but his job searches never seem to lead to an offer of employment. I have no idea how to believe that would change if we moved to another area with no job lined up, hoping he'd find something once we got there. What if that doesn't happen? I didn't get THAT much of an inheritance.

Has he been to an employment counseling centre? If he has done 1000's of applications without a single offer, then he has fundamental problems in the resume/search/interview process.

No, but I don't know what to do about this. My H says he's trying. I know he sends out a lot of resumes because I see him do it. He networks with a lot of people on sites like Linkedin. He has registered with job placement agencies. He's applied for promotions within his current company. He went back to school and got his MBA.

I don't know why nothing ever happens in spite of all this. And I don't know what else to do.

I'm not opposed to going to work, but I've been home for 5 years, and spent most of the marriage raising 5 kids. My H was always at work, gone 12 hours a day including commute time, so I had to do everything for the kids, all while working part-time and going to school myself. My skills are a little rusty, and my earning potential isn't great. I was trying to stay home until DD5 starts 1st grade. Right now, she only goes to K for 3 hours a day, so I'd have to pay for a lot of daycare. Most of the jobs I would be qualified for right now don't pay very well.

They did it the same way both their parents did it and everyone else they knew. From when we were newborns we spent evenings/days and overnights with extended family, or people we considered to be extended family like my godmother and god-sisters. Then there was dance class and girl scouts and brownies and karate etc. Our parents were friends with other married couples who were not just our 'sitters' they were like cousins or friends. Probably a huge part of your problem is that your friends have a very odd lifestyle that isn't compatible with this.

How does a kid have friends without sleepovers or spending time with them? I'd be a bit perturbed if your daughter does not have any time away from you with her friends or at activities at all? Even when we just had a regular sitter it was nice for us to order pizza and be witout our parents. Don't you ever worry about her ability to socialise without your being there if she isn't getting any practice?

Given that divorce is a lot more expensive than babysitting, I would not hesitate to pay out for sitters if need be. But I think creating a supportive circle of adult and child friendships around you is so important. The way it worked when I was a child is that it wasn't really 'tit for tat' exchanges.

Our aunts and godmothers missed us and wanted to see us. Just as I need to get a fix of my nieces and nephews sometimes. Our little friends wanted us to come over. Or we wanted to go to the majorette classes our friends were going to. It just sort of happened organically because that's the kind of sociable, help-out and marital culture my parents' families lived in.

One way to start off maybe is to take your daughter to activities she might enjoy. She will make friends and you might too among the parents. Even if you don't you and your H can go get a cup of coffee or something while she's busy enjoying some time away from you.

You know how nice all of this sounds? I bet it would be amazing to have that kind of love and support. And it's so far removed from anything I've ever experienced in my own life.

Because of my age, I don't have any friends nearby with kids the same age as my DD5. And all of the activities a 5-year-old can do here require parents to stay with them while they do them - dance classes, girl scouts, library story time - pretty much every thing I can think of we would have to stay while she did them. There aren't many things 5-year-olds can do, here at least, that don't require parental supervision.

I do realize how much it sounds like I'm fighting against all of this. That's not my intention at all.

I want it to work. I've tried so hard to make it work. You have no idea how much time and energy I have put into trying to solve all of these problems. I have spent so much time trying to arrange for daycare, trying to drum up support for our UA time, planning dates, etc., etc. I've done everything I could to support my H going back to school and searching for a new job. But I can't force the people in my life to be on-board with any of it, and that includes my H.

I'm at the point where I simply have to find a way to be happy with my life and accept the things I can't change while working on the ones that I can. And I can only control ME. Which is what I'm trying to do.

He's been applying out of state also?

Except for promotional opportunities within his company, all of the jobs he is applying for are out-of-state. They're pretty much all over the place. We aren't being too picky, since most places would have a lower COL than So-Cal.

Alone.

We know.


We know, that, too - which is why he needs to be given the chance, by you, to rise to the occasion.


But that won't work, as I described above.


Nobody is suggesting that you try to control anybody besides yourself.

Do you have a local YMCA?

Any local church youth groups?

Our youngest does a youth group twice a week from after school until 5:30 - on Thursdays she used to go to a second until 7:30 (that backed off - it's a looooong day for a 7 year old).

We do have a YMCA, but their website isn't great and I'm not sure what they offer. They appear to offer preschool and after-school daycare, but no drop-in child care for dates and such. They do have some classes - mostly karate and swimming - but I'm not sure if those are things we would have to remain with her while she does. I think it's easier to find drop-off activities as they get older.

I'm agnostic, so no interest in joining a church.

We had a 4-hour date last night, FC time today (took DD5 to the natural history museum in L.A.), and are planning on dropping her off at the drop-in childcare place for a few hours tomorrow for more UA time. At this point, I don't think the amount of UA we're getting is a problem and we do have a few childcare options we utilize on a regular basis.

The problem I'm having is that the UA time doesn't seem to be doing much to fill my LB, and I'm not sure why. I always have a good time when we go out. There's lots of things we enjoy doing together. RC, which is one of my top EN's, is being met. So why don't I have passionate, romantic feelings for my H?

Likely because your $LB is so tanked that it's going to take time and consistency. I would also suggest that to invoke passion and/or excitement, you share exciting activities. The whole idea of sharing RC as an EN is that the good feelings of RC are partially attributed to those we share it with.


As far as the youth group thing; neither my wife or I attend any church services. I'm a rationalist, she's a little more deistic. We can both appreciate the youth fellowship and structure from the groups. But, I am completely honest about my beliefs with my children.

YMCA websites in general are rather messy. I dug around enough on our local site to find out that a family membership would run about $200/month for full access. So, we could drop off DD7 with the youth activities, and go play raquetball or something while there. If finances permit.

That website that I posted to also does not require a username or anything - so its essentially an Anonymous post.