Marriage Builders
You've been living under a rock if you haven't seen this one:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/joyce-mitchell-deep-husband-article-1.2267662

The funny thing (if there is anything funny about this situation, which there is not) is that she is STILL minimizing the affair--as though at this point that's what people really care about. I read in another article that she plotted to kill her husband with the murder.

Waywards do the darnedest things, indeed.
It's so hard to understand. I know we're all "wired for affairs," but I still can't understand how people can give up everything. I just don't think I would do that.
PW,

So what % of crimes are linked to infidelity, people acting in ways they would never have imagined acting before getting into an affair, I would have to imagine it is greater than 1%.

Frequently in the news all you hear is that a woman had her husband killed or something like that.

As for the % of people who have accidents while texting, I would have to guess 5% are texting an affair partner.

Gamma

Well, this woman is a serial cheater. Her current husband was actually the AP in her first marriage...so there is that.

I agree that we are all wired for affairs. However, it's not an inevitability in ANY circumstance. Character is defined as the proper exercise of the human will to do the right thing. When you have good character in a marriage, it means you have good boundaries, you think about other's feelings, you are able to delay gratification, etc.

I am starting to realize that people that continue affairs, even AFTER widespread exposure or are serial cheaters have really difficult character issues. They have huge boundary and entitlement issues. I don't believe that they are totally irredeemable, but the consequences of their actions have to be SO HIGH for them to change, it's incredible. And even then, their outrageous sense of entitlement means that they don't usually value what they are giving up enough to change.
I so agree with you, PW!
Originally Posted by Gamma
PW,

So what % of crimes are linked to infidelity, people acting in ways they would never have imagined acting before getting into an affair, I would have to imagine it is greater than 1%.

Frequently in the news all you hear is that a woman had her husband killed or something like that.

As for the % of people who have accidents while texting, I would have to guess 5% are texting an affair partner.

Gamma

Well, if you ever watch any of those investigation shows, there are a considerable number of people who off their spouses for affairs and/or to prevent exposure.

It's not a scientific sample by any means, but it's not an uncommon story by any means.
Originally Posted by PigletWiglet
Well, this woman is a serial cheater. Her current husband was actually the AP in her first marriage...so there is that.

I agree that we are all wired for affairs. However, it's not an inevitability in ANY circumstance. Character is defined as the proper exercise of the human will to do the right thing. When you have good character in a marriage, it means you have good boundaries, you think about other's feelings, you are able to delay gratification, etc.

I am starting to realize that people that continue affairs, even AFTER widespread exposure or are serial cheaters have really difficult character issues. They have huge boundary and entitlement issues. I don't believe that they are totally irredeemable, but the consequences of their actions have to be SO HIGH for them to change, it's incredible. And even then, their outrageous sense of entitlement means that they don't usually value what they are giving up enough to change.

You just described the exact characteristics of an alcoholic. They will give up everything in pursuit of alcohol. It is not a matter of character, but being at the mercy of an all consuming addiction. I knew a Catholic Monsignor who actually lived under a bridge because he lost everything in pursuit of alcohol. Addictions override morality.

That being said, the addict is always responsible and this is not being stated as an excuse. THERE ARE NO EXCUSES.
Most people who have affairs are historically very moral people and practice moral standards in other areas of their lives. People don't usually set out to have an affair or become an alcoholic. IT happens much like the frog in boiling water, it is slow and subtle. Once the person realizes what has happened, they are completely consumed with their addiction and can't seem to get themselves out.

They know deep down it is wrong but they are so deeply consumed that they rationalize and justify it. We call that the FOG. It is easier to change your beliefs than your behavior.
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Most people who have affairs are historically very moral people and practice moral standards in other areas of their lives. People don't usually set out to have an affair or become an alcoholic. IT happens much like the frog in boiling water, it is slow and subtle. Once the person realizes what has happened, they are completely consumed with their addiction and can't seem to get themselves out.

They know deep down it is wrong but they are so deeply consumed that they rationalize and justify it. We call that the FOG. It is easier to change your beliefs than your behavior.


I agree that once you are in it, it's hard to get out of. However, getting in it IS a character issue. It indicates lack of boundaries and a sense of entitlement. Getting to the point at which you are addicted starts from a series of choices--the decision to talk to this person, to keep talking, etc.

I used to have a traveling job (long before my husband's affair), in which I traveled internationally often. I was propositioned a couple of times and once had a very nice colleague who I would have dated had I not been married. I always kept the conversation professional and declined time a hotel bars, etc. I don't say this because I am super human, but because I had a sense of boundaries and I didn't even want to have the appearance of impropriety.

I believe that the fog is real--but it doesn't just land on people. The behavior that LEADS to the affair is conscience and is very much a character issue.
Originally Posted by PigletWiglet
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Most people who have affairs are historically very moral people and practice moral standards in other areas of their lives. People don't usually set out to have an affair or become an alcoholic. IT happens much like the frog in boiling water, it is slow and subtle. Once the person realizes what has happened, they are completely consumed with their addiction and can't seem to get themselves out.

They know deep down it is wrong but they are so deeply consumed that they rationalize and justify it. We call that the FOG. It is easier to change your beliefs than your behavior.


I agree that once you are in it, it's hard to get out of. However, getting in it IS a character issue. It indicates lack of boundaries and a sense of entitlement. Getting to the point at which you are addicted starts from a series of choices--the decision to talk to this person, to keep talking, etc.

I used to have a traveling job (long before my husband's affair), in which I traveled internationally often. I was propositioned a couple of times and once had a very nice colleague who I would have dated had I not been married. I always kept the conversation professional and declined time a hotel bars, etc. I don't say this because I am super human, but because I had a sense of boundaries and I didn't even want to have the appearance of impropriety.

I believe that the fog is real--but it doesn't just land on people. The behavior that LEADS to the affair is conscience and is very much a character issue.

I agree. I'm no Tom Cruise, but I had younger women hit on me numerous times (no jewelry allowed in martial arts/boxing practice). My ex was not meeting my emotional needs, especially when we were apart for several months during our international move, but it never occurred to me that cheating was an option. There were so many reasons not to! I wasn't just considering my own morals but also the inevitable consequences.
Originally Posted by nmwb77
Originally Posted by PigletWiglet
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Most people who have affairs are historically very moral people and practice moral standards in other areas of their lives. People don't usually set out to have an affair or become an alcoholic. IT happens much like the frog in boiling water, it is slow and subtle. Once the person realizes what has happened, they are completely consumed with their addiction and can't seem to get themselves out.

They know deep down it is wrong but they are so deeply consumed that they rationalize and justify it. We call that the FOG. It is easier to change your beliefs than your behavior.


I agree that once you are in it, it's hard to get out of. However, getting in it IS a character issue. It indicates lack of boundaries and a sense of entitlement. Getting to the point at which you are addicted starts from a series of choices--the decision to talk to this person, to keep talking, etc.

I used to have a traveling job (long before my husband's affair), in which I traveled internationally often. I was propositioned a couple of times and once had a very nice colleague who I would have dated had I not been married. I always kept the conversation professional and declined time a hotel bars, etc. I don't say this because I am super human, but because I had a sense of boundaries and I didn't even want to have the appearance of impropriety.

I believe that the fog is real--but it doesn't just land on people. The behavior that LEADS to the affair is conscience and is very much a character issue.

I agree. I'm no Tom Cruise, but I had younger women hit on me numerous times (no jewelry allowed in martial arts/boxing practice). My ex was not meeting my emotional needs, especially when we were apart for several months during our international move, but it never occurred to me that cheating was an option. There were so many reasons not to! I wasn't just considering my own morals but also the inevitable consequences.

Indeed, if it were not about lack of character/boundaries, then all betrayed spouses would be having affairs. I have been asked out a few times while separated and never gone, even tough at this point I don't see any hope of reconciliation AND I can see this divorce dragging out a long time. If the fog just landed on people, betrayed spouses would be the best targets.
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I agree that we are all wired for affairs. However, it's not an inevitability in ANY circumstance. Character is defined as the proper exercise of the human will to do the right thing. When you have good character in a marriage, it means you have good boundaries, you think about other's feelings, you are able to delay gratification, etc.

"Character" is defined as "moral excellence and firmness," which many waywards had before having affairs themselves. Most people who have affairs were very moral people and did not believe in affairs.

We get onto shaky ground when we start claiming waywards have affairs because of "bad character." It sets people up to believe that if they are good enough people, they will never have an affair -- a very dangerous assumption. It also sets up the belief that people who do not have affairs are somehow superior to those who do -- which, again, is a dangerous belief for those who wish to recover their marriages.

There are reasons Dr. Harley focuses on boundaries rather than character.
Character is more like the exercise of the will to do what is right (like putting up boundaries). But it doesn't really matter if you call it boundaries or character. Character sounds more preachy, which puts people off. The fact is that it is a series of choices that leads to affairs. The fog doesn't just land.
Character is simply a pattern of behavior. Change your behavior, change your character
Dr. Harley doesn't usually focus on words like "character" because it's disrespectful. All of us would have an affair under the right circumstances.
Dr. Harley used to take an approach more like that to saving marriages, but it did not work.

Here's a great radio clip where he discusses this:

What Marriage Builders is all about
Originally Posted by markos
Dr. Harley doesn't usually focus on words like "character" because it's disrespectful. All of us would have an affair under the right circumstances.


That statement simply cannot be true. That is a totally fatalistic statement. It's like stating "all of us would commit murder (not self defense, but murder) under the right circumstances. Again, if that were true, betrayed spouses would always have affairs--especially those who have to go through lengthy divorces, etc.

All of us are capable of having affairs is more accurate. But it's not inevitable that all people would have affairs. Many people are celibate forever, etc. It assumes that people have no self-control if the stars align the right way. And that simply is not true.
Originally Posted by PigletWiglet
Originally Posted by markos
Dr. Harley doesn't usually focus on words like "character" because it's disrespectful. All of us would have an affair under the right circumstances.


That statement simply cannot be true.

Nevertheless it's the position Dr. Harley expresses over and over.
Ok. I have to believe the sentiment is one of being "capable" of having an affair, not that everyone would actually have one.

The pull of romantic love is very strong and having needs met is extremely tempting. I can believe that for most people there are circumstances that make affairs extremely tempting--just like there are circumstances that would make stealing extremely tempting (like starvation). But the fact remains that actually getting into it is a choice. It's an exercise, at the very core of boundaries, will, character or whatever you want to call it. It may be moralistic and disrespectful to say, but it remains the truth.

I don't believe that waywards are irredeemably horrible people at all. Just like I don't believe all robbers are irredeemably horrible, but I don't soften my language around their behavior either.

And I don't believe that faithful spouses are above them (you can be a totally crappy spouse and be faithful); however, we have to be careful no to absolve them of their choices. Sometimes, I fear that the language of fog and addiction does that. Once you are in, I get it. Sticking with Plan B for the first few months was the hardest thing I have ever done. I LOVED that man and felt like I was dying. But everyday I have been in Plan B has been an exercise of will over my feelings (character, boundaries, whatever). I wanted to see him and talk to him so badly. But I didn't and I haven't. It was a choice.

Anyway, again, I think we are generally talking about the same thing. So if saying boundaries instead of character is better, then I am fine with that. But the bottom line really is: No excuses. You're a grown up who made a vow. You broke that vow in an extremely hurtful (and frankly immoral) way. You have the responsibility to stop that even if it hurts you. The hope is that you then can build a romantic marriage with your spouse (MB), but you didn't have an uncontrollable disease. you made a choice to have poor boundaries.
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Character is more like the exercise of the will to do what is right (like putting up boundaries).
You are making up definitions.

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But it doesn't really matter if you call it boundaries or character.
Actually, it does ...

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Character sounds more preachy, which puts people off.
... and that's one of the reasons why ...
Originally Posted by PigletWiglet
however, we have to be careful no to absolve them of their choices.

I really don't think we need to be lectured about this.
Originally Posted by PigletWiglet
Ok. I have to believe the sentiment is one of being "capable" of having an affair, not that everyone would actually have one.
And you are wrong.

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The pull of romantic love is very strong and having needs met is extremely tempting. I can believe that for most people there are circumstances that make affairs extremely tempting--just like there are circumstances that would make stealing extremely tempting (like starvation). But the fact remains that actually getting into it is a choice.
And there are circumstances in which we would all make that choice.

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It's an exercise, at the very core of boundaries, will, character or whatever you want to call it. It may be moralistic and disrespectful to say, but it remains the truth.
Repeating yourself is not going to make it true.

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I don't believe that waywards are irredeemably horrible people at all. Just like I don't believe all robbers are irredeemably horrible, but I don't soften my language around their behavior either.
When Dr. Harley tried that, it failed.

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And I don't believe that faithful spouses are above them (you can be a totally crappy spouse and be faithful); however, we have to be careful no to absolve them of their choices.
No one has.

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Sometimes, I fear that the language of fog and addiction does that.
But it doesn't.

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Anyway, again, I think we are generally talking about the same thing. So if saying boundaries instead of character is better, then I am fine with that. But the bottom line really is: No excuses. You're a grown up who made a vow. You broke that vow in an extremely hurtful (and frankly immoral) way. You have the responsibility to stop that even if it hurts you. The hope is that you then can build a romantic marriage with your spouse (MB), but you didn't have an uncontrollable disease. you made a choice to have poor boundaries.

Just like anybody else with good character would have made, given the same circumstances.
Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by PigletWiglet
however, we have to be careful no to absolve them of their choices.

I really don't think we need to be lectured about this.

Seriously.
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you made a choice to have poor boundaries.
It is either choices you make, or it is a character issue. It cannot be both.
This seems to be getting too emotional. PW isn't lecturing anyone.

If the discussion can remain civil, may I ask if having an affair is considered morally wrong? If it is, then the decision to have an affair was a moral choice.
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This seems to be getting too emotional. PW isn't lecturing anyone.
Yes, she is. smile

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If the discussion can remain civil, may I ask if having an affair is considered morally wrong? If it is, then the decision to have an affair was a moral choice.
As Melody has pointed out, there rarely is a time when someone actually makes the decision to have an affair.
Ok, this is getting nonsensical.

How can it not be a character issue and not a choice? My choices are a reflection of my character. Being a murder is a reflection on my character...it is also a poor choice. The same thing with adultery. Character is the exercise of the will. It is not immutable. It can change over time. At it can be great in some places and lacking in others. I would say that I would be hard pressed to have an affair (not impossible, but it would take ALOT--like being locked in a room with a man who likes everything I like and is really cute for a couple of weeks), but I have a character issue when it comes to anger. I felt ENTITLED to it. That was a character issue. I am changing that character issue--I'm not entitled to it-- and my behavior is changing accordingly.

Also, it is not true that everyone would have an affair under the right circumstances. It can't be. That is fatalistic and implies that people cannot control what they do. That is not true. Again, if that were true--EVERY betrayed spouse who goes through at two year divorce would have an affair.

Anyway, whatever guys. I am not sure why you are attacking me, when I largely agree with you. You seem to get mad at me for pointing out that people can have serious moral failures and make horrible choices that they simply self-justify (like adultery).

Originally Posted by Prisca
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This seems to be getting too emotional. PW isn't lecturing anyone.
Yes, she is. smile

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If the discussion can remain civil, may I ask if having an affair is considered morally wrong? If it is, then the decision to have an affair was a moral choice.
As Melody has pointed out, there rarely is a time when someone actually makes the decision to have an affair.

I think you're reading more into PW's posts than she intends.

I agree that there's probably not a one-time conscious decision of "Hey, I think I'll break my wedding vows and totally destroy my spouse." But what leads up to the affair are small choices that are at best morally questionable.
Poor boundaries and character are totally different Pigglet. Poor boundary you allow OS friend to get emotionally close without the intention of anything happening, maybe even thinking you have high moral values and nothing could ever happen and that you would never break your vows. You are making a bad choice due to poor boundaries. Many affairs start online and maybe they had high boundaries in person but thought, what is a one time reply for a message, then went to two and ended up a frequent chatting. You are totally responsible for your choice. You are responsible. No one says you arent.
After exposure, then I think it is about character. I don't know, maybe even not but thats how I see it and the boundary word is the best word that defines the start of an affair, or most. Saying poor boundary doesn't absolve your crime. Now after you know that low boundaries open you up for an affair and not having high boundaries, then it is about character. But many people have low boundaries not because of low moral standards pre-affair.
Your character and your choices are two different things.

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Also, it is not true that everyone would have an affair under the right circumstances. It can't be. That is fatalistic and implies that people cannot control what they do. That is not true. Again, if that were true--EVERY betrayed spouse who goes through at two year divorce would have an affair.
Your logic doesn't follow. Just because everybody would have an affair given the right circumstances does not mean that EVERY BS who goes through a two year divorce would have an affair. There is no logic in that line of reasoning.

But it is true that everybody would have an affair given the RIGHT CIRCUMSTANCES. If you make the same choices that a wayward makes, and put yourself in the same position that a wayward is in, you WILL have an affair. You cannot put yourself in that circumstance and be immune.

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Anyway, whatever guys. I am not sure why you are attacking me, when I largely agree with you. You seem to get mad at me for pointing out that people can have serious moral failures and make horrible choices that they simply self-justify (like adultery).
Disagreeing with you is not attacking you.

And nobody has disagreed that people can make serious moral failures and horrible choices. Don't put words in our mouths, okay? smile

And the last thing I'd like to point out is that intention simply doesn't matter--

Most people don't intend to have affairs. So what? I also didn't intend to make love unit withdrawls with my anger either. I simply wanted to get my way. I made a series of choices--anger--based on my character (i am entitled to yell at my husband so he knows how upset I am does what I want). That is wrong. My entitlement led to bad behavior.

That is the same thing with an affair. So, your intention is to get your needs met, not to hurt your spouse. But in the process you do because your thought process is that you should get your needs met (which is legitimate), but that having this friendship is the way to do it (entitlement). I remember my husband telling me "you have no RIGHT to tell me that she can't be in my life." If that isn't entitlement, I don't know what is.

I actually remember feeling an attraction to that co-worker I mentioned before, and made a conscience choice to STAY AWAY from that guy. I have character failings in other places, though.

Anyway, If you feel lectured at, then I am sorry. I still don't think I am saying anything that that's controversial or even out of line with this program.
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But what leads up to the affair are small choices that are at best morally questionable.
A lot of people would take issue with that. A lot of people would see a difference between "I'm going to go have sex with that guy!" and "That man made me feel good when he talked to me at work."

A lot of people do not see a moral issue with having a friendly conversation with the opposite sex. The little steps are not necessarily seen as moral issues.

At Marriage Builders, we learn that they are certainly POOR BOUNDARIES. But they are not going to be seen as immoral by even your average church-goer.
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And the last thing I'd like to point out is that intention simply doesn't matter--
There's a huge difference in affairs that are intentional and those that are not.

Those that are intentional are far less likely to be recovered from. They tend to be the serial cheaters -- people who are addicted to affairs rather than to a person.

Originally Posted by Prisca
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And the last thing I'd like to point out is that intention simply doesn't matter--
There's a huge difference in affairs that are intentional and those that are not.

Those that are intentional are far less likely to be recovered from. They tend to be the serial cheaters -- people who are addicted to affairs rather than to a person.

Sure. If that person recognizes that an affair is not a legitimate way to get their needs met and changes their behavior around it--as well as their sense of entitlement about it, which I would argue is a character issue--changes. The thoughts can follow the actions, certainly.

But what I am saying is that intention doesn't matter in terms of getting involved in the first place. It is still a series of choices that leads to the affair. I would argue that those choices are largely conscience even if people think they are innocent to start. At least my husband, for instance, knew what he was doing--he just justified his actions at every step and even in a moment of clarity admitted to me. He said, "N, I didn't do this because you were a bad wife. I knew that I should have stopped talking to her so much and that it was hurting you. I just didn't want to. I didn't even make an effort to. I thought I deserved a little attention." Again--entitlement alert!

Whereas, I mentioned before, I did make that effort with my former co-worker. That may seem self-righteous, but it's true. It doesn't make me a better person. It means I don't have a sense of entitlement around getting my emotional needs met it that way.

Anyway--bottom line: I think Dr. Harley's approach works simply because he focuses on the behavior, not the thinking (entitlement), which clearly makes people upset because nobody wants to think of themselves as a bad person. it doesn't mean the thinking doesn't have to change. Feelings, thinking, character can most certainly follow after action.
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But what I am saying is that intention doesn't matter in terms of getting involved in the first place.
Yes, it does matter. It is an entirely different beast.
Do you listen to the radio show on a regular basis?
I agree that serial cheaters have a stronger sense of entitlement than one-timers, certainly. That doesn't mean the entitlement doesn't exist with one timers, at least in their thinking and actions leading up to and during an affair.

You are correct that in terms of recovery it makes a difference. When someone cheats repeatedly, it means they aren't giving up their entitlement. They are picking their entitlement to their IB, SSL and affair addictions over you. Definitely.
Do you listen to the radio show on a regular basis?
Originally Posted by PigletWiglet
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Most people who have affairs are historically very moral people and practice moral standards in other areas of their lives. People don't usually set out to have an affair or become an alcoholic. IT happens much like the frog in boiling water, it is slow and subtle. Once the person realizes what has happened, they are completely consumed with their addiction and can't seem to get themselves out.

They know deep down it is wrong but they are so deeply consumed that they rationalize and justify it. We call that the FOG. It is easier to change your beliefs than your behavior.


I agree that once you are in it, it's hard to get out of. However, getting in it IS a character issue. It indicates lack of boundaries and a sense of entitlement. Getting to the point at which you are addicted starts from a series of choices--the decision to talk to this person, to keep talking, etc.

I disagree completely. Most people have poor boundaries out of ignorance, not out of poor character or a sense of entitlement. I am a recovering alcoholic [30 years sober in April] and I never made a decision to be an alcoholic. I drank and then one day I realized "OH MY GOD, I can't stop. I don't want to stop." And then the excuses and rationalizations set in. Was I am immoral person? No, I was not. I was ignorant of the risks. I was vulnerable to alcoholism and ignorant of the risks.

Is that an excuse? OH NO. There is no excuse.

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I used to have a traveling job (long before my husband's affair), in which I traveled internationally often. I was propositioned a couple of times and once had a very nice colleague who I would have dated had I not been married. I always kept the conversation professional and declined time a hotel bars, etc. I don't say this because I am super human, but because I had a sense of boundaries and I didn't even want to have the appearance of impropriety.

Because you are aware of the risks and behave appropriately. Most people are not aware of risks at all and believe they "should be trusted." They tend to be more vulnerable than others because they believe they are IMMUNE to it.

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believe that the fog is real--but it doesn't just land on people. The behavior that LEADS to the affair is conscience and is very much a character issue.

Conscience is a funny thing when you are facing an addiction. The conscience gets drowned out by rationalizations and lies and excuses that are fueled by an overwhelming addiction. IT's funny, but in the midst of my alcoholism I still remember the sense that "my conscience is SCREAMING to get out!!"
There is a massive difference between someone who is out actively trolling for action and one who sort of stumbles into an affair. We hear so many say that they "never ever intended on having an affair. I can't believe this is me." Whereas the serial cheater can believe it because he is actively looking for it.
Yes, I do. And I don't think anything I have said is at all incompatible with what Dr. Harley has said at all. He largely focuses on behaviors, which is the right thing to do because focusing on thoughts and feelings is too frought (that is the essence of behavior therapy vs. traditional therapy). I'll listen to that show.

I have heard him say that things like, "we are all wired to have affairs," etc. That circumstances matter, etc. And I AGREE with that. But that doesn't mean that people's sense of entitlement to what they are doing is not real. He has also said repeatedly that some people are more pre-disposed to affairs. I agree with that too. Some people have a stronger sense of entitlement to get their needs met in anyway they can. Some people have a stronger sense of entitlement to be heard through anger or disrespect and therefore use those tactics. Both are wrong in terms of thinking (even it it largely unconscious) and both take some exercise of will to stop (character) even if you don't feel like it.

Character is doing what is right even when it hurts, is hard, etc. It takes an extraordinary amount of character to end an affair the right way for example. I forget the name of the couple in SSA that he gave as an example--but that guy, even after starting to have those strong feelings actually stopped. Almost every person in Plan B exercises it as well. It is extraordinarily difficult to go into Plan B if you are in love with your spouse. I felt like I was dying.

And I am not saying that people who end affairs the wrong way--dying a natural death--don't exercise character later. I have seen former waywards on this board exercise it.

In both cases, in terms of recovery, emotions follow actions. That's why focusing on action is the right thing.

Now, I'll let this die (for reals this time), because we largely agree on the treatment. It's like saying we both agree with AA, while disagreeing about how alcoholics become alcoholics.
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Most people have poor boundaries out of ignorance, not out of poor character or a sense of entitlement...

Is that an excuse? OH NO. There is no excuse.

This is so true. Piglet, I was raised old way type person as in even was never alone with husband before marriage, and if I went out with him, I went "chaperoned". Married, I had instances were some men flirted and I felt attracted and I was dry and looked away as I saw smiling back as wrong. Nevertheless, FB appeared and I added every single person that sent friend request and responded to every single message, even from a guy, out of ignorance, not lack of character. I added my ex boyfriend out of ignorance and replied one message, then another, then I realized I was having an affair, no excuse... I chose it, and I have the consequences. It is called guilt. As a betrayed you know the pain of being betrayed by another but you have no idea the pain when you realize you lost your identity and you know you chose everything and I am thankful for this program for letting me stand up again.
I spent nearly a year and a half begging forgiveness after I had ended contact and hadnt chatted for already 4-5 years had no personal email no facebook for 4 years hearing DAILY I was immoral, an adulterous, thinking I deserved to hear that when I had been affair free 4 years. I wish with all my heart I had had higher boundaries in FB and I didn't not because of my character but but out of ignorance. And by the way, I think women that feel attracted to a man wont usually have an affair because they can sense a possible affair. It is not feeling attracted that starts it for women, its talking back and keep on talking back as friends, when your brain starts justifying. It is a brain wiring defense mechanism. You got yourself in the situation and your brain will defend you. No excuses, I know. I do believe its poor boundaries and not lack of character and I am thankful for this program, because I was a real mess out of guilt and now I have my life back and my marriage back.
a quote from the article: >>Up until then, Lyle Mitchell said, their marriage seemed �excellent.�

�We never fight,� he said. �We�re together, I�ll bet you, 95 percent of the time. We work together, we never leave the house unless we're together.�<<

So...it sounds like they could have used some UA time. Undivided Attention, focusing on each other. Not just being together out on errands or what-not. smile

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And I don't think anything I have said is at all incompatible with what Dr. Harley has said at all.

This is a pretty big one:
Originally Posted by PigletWiglet
Originally Posted by markos
Dr. Harley doesn't usually focus on words like "character" because it's disrespectful. All of us would have an affair under the right circumstances.


That statement simply cannot be true. That is a totally fatalistic statement. It's like stating "all of us would commit murder (not self defense, but murder) under the right circumstances. Again, if that were true, betrayed spouses would always have affairs--especially those who have to go through lengthy divorces, etc.

All of us are capable of having affairs is more accurate. But it's not inevitable that all people would have affairs. Many people are celibate forever, etc. It assumes that people have no self-control if the stars align the right way. And that simply is not true.


And so is this one:
Quote
I agree that once you are in it, it's hard to get out of. However, getting in it IS a character issue.

These are not compatible with what Dr. Harley teaches.
I'd be very curious to see what Dr. Harley would say about this, but since this is the Other Topics forum I'm going to chime in and say I think this is mostly a debate of semantics.

We all agree that a lack of boundaries is a prerequisite for an affair, what we're really arguing about is whether a lack of boundaries is a character issue/moral failing.

PW, the analogy you reference about betrayed spouses was originally posted by indiegirl on another thread a while back (I thought it was pretty brilliant, actually) but on slightly different terms. Her point was that unmet emotional needs do not cause affairs, they only make people vulnerable to them, and that boundaries were the real issue. I thought it was a very concise way of summing up the MB viewpoint on affairs and ENs.

I personally agree with PW about OS boundaries being a moral issue because that is how I was raised (by my father specifically, who's biological father was a serial cheater), but certainly I can see that most people do not view them that way and I don't know what good it would do to beat anyone over the head with my views on the topic. Saying that OS friendships are simply a bad idea I think works well enough. Discussions about pre-marital co-habitation here generally work the same way...not everyone agrees it is morally wrong, but we can all look at Dr. Harley's analysis on the topic and see it is certainly a poor idea.

To be perfectly honest, I also don't see what good it does for the BS to sit in moral judgement of the WS, whether you recover or divorce. If you're trying to recover, that is a DJ, so that doesn't work. If you divorce, I don't really know what the point of it is. Maybe I'm a bit thick skinned (or thick witted, take your pick), but judging my ex one way or the other doesn't help me with any of the problems I have as a divorced BS. It can hamper my progress towards eliminating lovebusting habits by tempting me to blameshift them onto the WS, it can make me less attractive to a new partner by making me bitter, and it can sour my attitude by triggering me about the A. I'd rather just leave their moral standing between them and God and worry about my own problems.

I don't have a lot of the problems someone with children would so maybe I'm being callous saying that, but I don't get it. The WS is off in the their own little world (caring not a whit about the BS) and once you either Plan B or divorce, I don't see how judging their character is helpful.
Well Ax, you've gone straight to the point with good wise wording, all true but as a FWW the concept of poor boundary vs character IS the concept that got me up and forward. That one concept IS important in recovery from guilt. The reason Piglets post got to me as a FWW is because I am still shaky over the messy past past year me and my husband, I had been hearing daily prior to posting in MB how bad of a person I was, and my husband felt morally superior to me for a long long long time. I thought I deserved that and I learned here all these concepts and I now have high expectations out of my marriage.
I think it is less than a month that I am actually starting to recover (from guilt) after more than 5 years after my affair had ended and starting to have high bar standards expectations set on my husband and the concept got to me as I still havent recovered my identity.
BS deal with recovery from pain from betrayal someone else did. FWW/FWH deal with recovery from guilt they brought up by their poor choices and recovery of their identity.
Dr. Harley's concepts have a basis out of experience and saying it IS because of character is not one of Dr Harley's concepts, period.
Pos affair my character hasn't changed, my boundaries have. I now don't have any male friends on my recent one month new FB.

Maybe some people that had affairs had character issues, but some didn't. They had poor choices over poor boundaries.

And my husband got involved emotionally with his ex out of entitlement and anger and I don't at all think he had poor character, because I don't and can't know how his brain was processing all after my betrayal and what circustances that were 4 years post my affair had ended enabled it. glad this is all over for us.

One of the issues here is what people think character is. It is not the same thing as morality. I keep mentioning and everyone keeps glossing over the fact that Character is "doing something that is right when it is hard to do", not "having good morals." I have no doubt in my mind that my husband thought cheating was wrong before he did it. I have no doubt in my mind that his boundaries were shaky mostly because of ignorance. However, he felt entitled to OSS friendships and even in the early stages of this when she had just started working with him, he defended his "right" to have a friendship with her (she started incessantly texting right away). There were also other signs like feeling entitled to not work until he got his dream job or to open credit cards without telling me. I think those actions demonstrated poor character (entitlement).

I mentioned the couple in SSA that ended the affair the right way. That guy was demonstrating good character when he did that even though he messed up in the first place. That guy did display better character than Sue--I'll make a judgement on that, because objectively it's true. I would say that any spouse who even after getting very involved in an affair, ends it even if it is painful, demonstrates good character. That doesn't mean that Sue didn't and could change her character later (ie giving up her entitlement), but she didn't display it at the time. That doesn't necessarily mean the marriage is not recoverable, I know--which is one of the reasons Dr. Harley doesn't focus on it.

And since character is simply "doing what is right when it is hard," I don't need to sit around condemning my soon to be ex or bitterness at all. He simply has not displayed good character by not ending his affair or trying to do anything at all to save his marriage. One doesn't need to editorialize on what he did to be "bitter" about it.

If ones spouse does continually condemns them after making the changes necessary to save the marriage (and the betrayed spouse wants to continue the marriage), then that's just as bad. It shows poor character by holding on to a sense of entitlement to anger. If you choose recovery, set the standard and the former wayward meets the standard it is abusive to use the affair to make one feel like he/she is a bad person.

Again, I don't think character is immutable or can change over time. Every time we choose to do right, consider others, etc we are demonstrating good character. apples said many posts ago, if you change your actions you change your character. That's true.

So really, last post. If using the words "actions" or "behavior" makes everyone feel better, then I won't argue this point anymore.


I have only briefly skim-read this thread.

My opinion is this: I think this kind of analyzing isn't really helpful and actually could be distracting and dangerous to a BS who is here with a WS in the throes of an affair, trying to decide whether to expose and break up the affair and whether they want to pursue a recovery.

This kind of speculation is going to lead some to decide whether their spouse has a character flaw that will make recovery impossible and some maybe will decide it's not worth it without trying.

I think that's why Dr Harley does not approach looking at a WS this way. Even if a WS has a personality or character flaw or is a serial cheat with major entitlement and dishonesty issues, if you change the conditions under which an affair/SSL can exist, recovery is still possible. That's all a BS needs to know.

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