Marriage Builders
Posted By: Fishracer Friends with Benefits - 09/16/05 12:04 AM
Recent posts and a new personal experience have compelled me to post a query about sex - without a "dating" type relationship. An actual "friend w/benefits" offer.

Pro's - cons - comments?

In other words: Can a man and a woman have a physical relationship - and remain "just friends"? At any age? Does age make a difference?

FR
Posted By: aislinn Re: Friends with Benefits - 09/16/05 12:53 AM
Fishracer, I have done it before and it was not a bad experience, but it's a slippery slope to walk. Although it didn't happen in my most memorable "friends with benefits" case, one person is bound to end up feeling more than the other. Even if they do not regret the relationship for the slight hurt it might cause, there can still be hurt.

Now, I was younger when I did this and it was between my two marriages. He was a wonderful friend, and a wonderful lover. I never felt "empty" like one might feel after casual sex. But he was not the kind of person I wanted to date. As far as I know, the same was true for him.

I've had several of these relationships...the one I describe above was the best. But then there was another guy--still just a friend...and another good lover but someone whom I would not wish to date. He didn't want to date me either. However he came around for "sex" a lot more than I was comfortable with and I stopped that part of the relatioship. We did remain friends, but we were never very close like I was with the first situation I described so it was a very casual friendship. I did feel "empty" after encounters with this person.

I'm in a situation now...I believe that both of us would like more than frienship with benefits, but it's not a probable situation. So I will distinguish here between a VERY special friend and friend.
Posted By: Greengables Re: Friends with Benefits - 09/16/05 01:20 AM
I did it long ago with one person. Okay, truth be told, he was an ex-boyfriend and I was still in love with him.

I dated one gentleman when I was younger and we had sex, but we were mainly really good friends. So, even when the romance ended, the friendship didn't really. To this day, he could call me up and we'd be friends with stuff to talk about.

My guess is that the FWB doesn't really work well.
Posted By: Karona Re: Friends with Benefits - 09/16/05 02:16 AM
Fish,

I really don't see how it could work, but maybe for some it does.

For me, my heart would have to be involved or would get involved.

But, I'm the extreme I guess. This is coming from someone who recently went on their first "official" date, and found out after that the guy wanted to hold my hand. To which I told him, I'm glad he didn't, because I'm not ready for that. [pretty pathetic]
So, maybe I shouldn't be posting to this topic!

As far as age, I can't imagine that it makes a difference. I still tend to think someones heart would get involved, and then what?

K!
Posted By: aislinn Re: Friends with Benefits - 09/16/05 02:35 AM
I just want to distinguish between casual sex and friends with benefits.

At this point in my life I am no longer interested in casual sex, though at one time I was.

To me, "friends with benefits" does not define casual sex. If you're friends with someone you care a great deal about them and your heart *is* involved. The level at which it is involved is the determining factor here.

First situation I described, not casual sex even though there was no romantic relationship.

Second situation I described, I would define more as casual sex. Yes, we were friends, but not *good* friends.

Current situation, not casual sex. But as I said, there would be more than friendship if it was a different situation.
Posted By: heartmending Re: Friends with Benefits - 09/16/05 06:59 AM
Interesting topic....and timing.

I have been divorced for 3 years. Did some dating, but stopped a year ago because I got tired of the getting to know yous over and over again...sorting out levels of relationship expectations, etc. It became easier for me to not date.

I am 50 years old. My exWS had an affair with a 21 year old when he was 47. Ouch! Anyhow, I recently met and started a friendship with the 34 year old nephew of a neighbor. We'd all get together at the neighbor's house and socialize. It was a casual, fun time with lots of laughter and conversation. I never thought of the nephew in terms of a dating prospect. He was humorous and great looking, but the age difference was too great...and most men want women their age or younger.

Well, one evening the nephew came over to my house and asked to come in and talk. He said that he was going to be upfront and honest and just tell me that he was attracted to me and would like to spend more time with me. I couldn't believe what I was hearing. He said he'd always liked older women. While I was attracted to him, I knew that we were very different in our life goals and values. We would never work as a long term couple. But, I was at the stage in my life where I just wanted to have fun...be that "rebel" teenager that I never was.

So, I said that I would like to spend time with him to have fun, but that I didn't see our relationship as anything long term. Additionally, I was moving out of the area in about one month, and he knew it. So, my "goal" was to push the edge...take more risks...rebel....have fun! And this 34 year old was great at having fun! (Not so good at being responsible!)

Our "fun" ended up including having sex based on mutual desire and agreement. I never had this type of experience before. I always saw myself as someone who had to be "in love" with someone to have a sexual relationship with them. I would see this as similar to aislinn's description of the second situation where the sex was more casual, and we were friends, but not "good" friends. The sex was great. It was actually almost refreshing to not have to worry about longterm emotional entanglement. I was just being in the moment doing something I missed, and enjoyed, with someone I was attracted to...period!

We seemed to both be comfortable with the arrangement. I do think that I would have been uncomfortable if he was having sex with others during this time. But, that had more to do with "comparison" and my self-esteem, not anything between the two of us. (And of course, increased risk for STDs!)

I would have never guessed in a million years that I would be involved in this type of experience. I was a 23 year old virgin when I married my first husband. I recognize that there were negatives as well as positives in this recent experience, but isn't that true of much of life and relationships?

I'm not going to go around advocating for this type of experience, but neither am I going to hide my head in shame. It met a need for me. It was a great ego boost...and nice to have sex again! I do think it's important, however, that you be as clear as possible with each other about the expectations and limits of the relationship. Yes, someone's feelings can change, but that's also true of a more traditional dating relationship.
Posted By: LostHusband Re: Friends with Benefits - 09/16/05 12:15 PM
I can only speak from my personal experience on this and not theorize too much. I will say that for me, like Korona, I don't think it's possible. I do believe that if I would have engaged in that type of relationship, I at minimum, would have been worse for the wear.

There was a time years ago when I was open to and probably seeking out this type of relationship. In hindsite, I see that it was at a time in my life when I was depressed and was looking for anything to fill that emptiness. That emptiness ended up being filled but it wasn't with friendship.

I would also say that for me, FWB, relationship go against my morals, values, and Christian beliefs.

So for me, I'm glad that didn't work out, it truly would have been like feeding a cracker to a starving man. Now I sit at the table and feast with a beautiful wife.
Posted By: nams Re: Friends with Benefits - 09/16/05 12:24 PM
Even if it can "work" is that really what you want from a relationship?

What are the pros beside the obvious satisfaction of your physical sexual needs?

Does this kind of relationship really satisfy your sexual needs or only a part?

I'm not pro or con, just wondering if when all is said & done, will you feel good about the experience & will she.

I know in the past when I wanted to feel intimacy (all levels) my mind first went to the physical & that becomes a focus point. But for me, in the end, there was always something missing & the experiences never gave the satisfaction I really wanted.

But, I'm older & wiser (? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />) now so...
Posted By: CheckUrHeart Re: Friends with Benefits - 09/16/05 02:17 PM
I have a FWB and it is working well for us, so I know from experience that it is indeed possible. Yet Karona's point is valid. It definitely IS NOT for everyone and women have to be especially careful because sex changes the dynamics of any relationship.

FWB relationships are best reserved for people who are emotionally healthy and looking for alternatives to the usual way we approach relationships. It requires that both partners seek the relationship for the exact same reason and ground rule have to be clearly defined up front.

Of paramount importance is that you begin as friends - real friends. As in any other relationship, the biggest mistake is to allow sexual desire to cloud your judgement and reasoning. The other mistake is a lack of acknowledgement that the relationship may develop into something more than a friendship with benefits. So the partners have to be on the same page with this. If, for example, one partner would be pleased if the relationship went to the next lever, while the other doesn't want this, the only choice to forego a FWB relationship. Yes, this is a very slippery slope.

My FWB is a very good and dear friend. She's a few years younger than me and never been married, She was sick to death of the dating scene. When dating, you have two choices: casual sex or full-blown romantic relationships. Well, she isn't interested casual sex anymore and decided that the endless stream of romanitc relationships was costing her too much. but she still has sexual needs that she wants fulfilled. On my part, I am not ready for a romantic relationship, but also have needs I'd liked filled. So we discussed this for some time and very carefully before we decided to give it a try. There are ground rules, of course. The primary one is that the relationship MUST be sexually monogamous. Another is that while each of us are free to date and if either decides to pursue a romantic relationship with someone else, the FWB relationship must end first. The relationship cannot be just about sex, so we spend time together doing all the things that friends do together. Indeed, the sex is not the most important part of the relationship; the companionship is far more important. Either of us may decide to end the sexual relationship at anytime and the decision MUST be honored. While "falling in love" and taking the relationship to the next level is not off the table, should either of us find that our feelings are deepening, this must be discussed openly and honestly and decisions made based on the current context. The failsafe position for such a situation is to end the sexual activity until a decision is made. Any changes in the ground rules must be mutually agreed to, never unilaterally without discussion.

Does this approach sound familiar? It is actually a loose adaptation of MB principles. And you know what? It's working for us. This tells me that MB can work it both partners buy in. I find this aspect very encouraging. To be honest, the FWB approach, when done correctly has many advantages over traditional dating. In traditional dating, there is initial attraction, a getting to know you period, love develops (real or misidentified lust), sex happens, and maybe, though not always a REAL friendship develops. In the FWB approach I am using the friendship comes first and love comes last. Sex is relegated to an adjunct status. We never have to worry if the relationship is progressing as it should. We also never have to worry if we are deluding ourselves and really all there is between us is a sexual attraction that will never sustain the relationship.

Our FWB relationship has been going on for seven months now and we are both pleased and satisfied with it. Indeed, my friend says that she is more comfortable in this relationship than any romantic one she's had, since she's never waiting for the other shoe to fall. She says she know me better than the man with whom she had a six year relationship. Will this relationship develop into something more one day? I don't know. Neither of us are considering this at this point in time. I do know that if it does, it will have a much better chance for success because friendship and not romance is the most important part.
Posted By: Drita Re: Friends with Benefits - 09/16/05 03:36 PM
I can't do FWB, but that's just me and knowing myself.
I think of all my girlfriends who might SAY they can do it, but then get too involved in it all and before you know it, the friendship is over and feelings are hurt and egos wounded.
It's been my experience that deep down, we are ALL looking for that "one", and although Check, you seem to have it all worked out there, I know that isn't the norm, as I'm sure you do! Most people can't keep it all in perspective.

My other thought is, IF you DO meet someone that you are truly interested in, what will SHE/HE think of your friend that you are still friends with that you WERE having sex with? I think that would spark some insecurities. I'm pretty sure it would for me.
Posted By: Ryesmom Re: Friends with Benefits - 09/16/05 03:44 PM
It is possible.
Posted By: CheckUrHeart Re: Friends with Benefits - 09/16/05 04:03 PM
Yea`h, it's not the "norm." Yet, that is. FWB relationships are very popular with the 20-something crowd and is quickly becoming the preferred sexual outlet for educated people who aren't ready for marriage. When you think about it, this is really a good thing.

I gotta tell you, Drita. I have never once discussed my sexual relationship with one woman with another - not even my wife. That is always, alway, always private. It has to be this way, because I only own half of the relationship and have no right to unilaterally disclose the intimate details. Radical honesty DOES NOT include details of past sexual relationships. If some woman is going to be insecure over my past sexual relationships, she has no future with me. I've never been promiscuous and that will have to suffice. One must never allow themselves to be made responisble of another's insecurities.
Posted By: Fishracer Re: Friends with Benefits - 09/16/05 04:03 PM
WOW! I need to get out more! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Very interesting replies here and I appreciate the openness from all.

I have a few questions and comments:

Hi Aislinn:
Quote
To me, "friends with benefits" does not define casual sex. If you're friends with someone you care a great deal about them and your heart *is* involved. The level at which it is involved is the determining factor here.
I've always considered FWB to be more along the lines of casual sex - interesting that you feel otherwise. Based on your thoughts, is it safe to assume that your FWB relationship could eventually develop into a romantic relationship?

heartmending: Your sitch is more along the lines of how I envision a FWB relationship to work. Interesting though that you are able to keep your emotions from becoming involved. Do you have a fear that this experience may desensitize your emotions once you enter a truly romantic relationship?

nams: Good questions. I look forward to seeing the answers.

Check: Your story is compelling and I have to ask: Are you in love with your FWB? Do you feel that she is in love with you? It seems to me that you two have the relationship that the rest of us aspire to have. Your relationship is clearly founded in trust, she says that this relationship is better than a recent 6-year relationship, and whether you realize it or not - it sounds to me like you're "ga-ga" over this gal. Is there a chance that the only thing keeping the two of you from being together - is stating that you're together?

I am probably more like Lost Husband, Greengables and Karona in that for me - the emotional part of sex contributes to or defines the physical enjoyment. [I'm now waiting for the giant "Old Milwakuee" beer can to fall on top of me at any moment!] <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

FR
Posted By: AGoodGuy Re: Friends with Benefits - 09/16/05 04:06 PM
Maybe I'm too prudish, but I am curious about the details (nothing graphic <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />) of how this works...

When people do this FWB sex, is there anything else involved? I mean is there also hugging, kissing, "sweet nothings", and other things one might associate with sex? Or is it more of the kind of sex we see in porn movies, "wham bam thank you ma'am"?. Satisfy your needs and move on...

I am just having trouble picturing how this works. To my (perhaps prudish) mind, it would seem that along with sex, one would get into the other stuff too... But if you do, are you not then having a romantic relationship?

Put another way, if you are having a FWB relationship as described above, you are monogamous, and are very emotionally close to the other person, how is that different from a romantic relationship? Perhaps not one that would lead to permanence or commitment, but romantic nonetheless? Or are there really no feelings whatsoever involved?

AGG
Posted By: CheckUrHeart Re: Friends with Benefits - 09/16/05 04:28 PM
No, I am not ga-ga, FR. I am very fond of this woman, but I was before the FWB. She's the only one of my friends who seems to understand what I was going through in my divorce. Everyone else was sympathetic the first week after the D, but then if quiclky turned into get off you can and get back out there, you must move on, don't sit and sulk, etc (we've all hear these well-meaning but emptry platitudes). But they really didn't care to see my pain and avoided me (familiar anyone?). She ddn't do this, but stuck by me through ups and downs and padded the walls when I was bouncing off them.

But I am not "in love" with her. Can I love her? I really don't know. Right now, I won't allow myself to go there. Yes, it is possible not to allow yourself to fall in love. No there is much more to this than just stating "we're together." People usually state "they're together" when they are so far apart it's a wonder they don't see it for themselves. Maybe one day we will be together in the way you mean, but not now.

BTW, the sex my friend and I have is not just physical release without emotion. There's plenty of emotion or I wouldn't be interested. I will say that it isn't the same as it was with the wife that I loved, but I don't expect that. That's a gift that is for some other time.
Posted By: CheckUrHeart Re: Friends with Benefits - 09/16/05 04:33 PM
"When people do this FWB sex, is there anything else involved?"

Yes.

"I mean is there also hugging, kissing, "sweet nothings", and other things one might associate with sex?

I've never been clear on what exactly a "sweet nothing" is (sounds like something lovers should never do -- how about "sweet somethings"), but to the rest, yes.

"Or is it more of the kind of sex we see in porn movies, "wham bam thank you ma'am"?. Satisfy your needs and move on..."

"Wham bam thank you ma'am" is what you do with prostitutes - or with other "non-pro" women if you are a complete cad and have no respect for a woman or her feelings. Porn movie sex? I think there is a tad of that in any healthy relationship.
Posted By: Drita Re: Friends with Benefits - 09/16/05 04:42 PM
Okay, how to say this...
I agree I don't go out talking about my sexual exploits, and I hope that you did not think I was calling you promiscuous, Check, and I certainly would NOT tell the "future SO" (when you meet her) that you were rollin' in the hay with current gal, but if current gal is still around and being a friend (now, without benefits!), and new gal comes on the scene and she has ANY ability to pick up things and read people, she will find out about you and current gal, and she will be hurt that you did not tell her that current gal at one time was a FWB.
Does that make sense?
Here's what I'm trying to say:
I currently have a FWB. (Not really, this is for instructional purposes only!) I'm dating others. I find someone I'm interested in and I decide I need to cool the sheets with FWB. FWB understands because we talked all about it and knew all of this upfront, because we are responsible, 20 something and/or educated people.
FWB one day meets new (because of my optimism, I'm going to marry me off!) H.
Me and new H one day go to a BBQ and FWB is there. FWB and I are, of course, still friends. SOMEHOW, SOMEONE, SOMEWHERE lets it slip and new H is terribly hurt because I never said anything about FWB. Now his trust in me is shattered and I have some real problems.
I'm only playing devil's advocate. But what will you do with FWB when you are done and moving on? Can you trust that nothing will ever be said? Can you take the chance of NOT telling new W?
I know I'm not like most people (and you all don't know me that well -yet- and will think I'm weird) but I'm very perceptive, and I'm PRETTY sure that if my BF and his former FWB ran into each other, I'd feel it. Hard to hide-and I'm not saying you should. I'm only raising the question!
I can't do the FWB, remember, I'm only thinking of what could happen and then how you will deal with it if/when it does!
Posted By: AGoodGuy Re: Friends with Benefits - 09/16/05 04:54 PM
Quote
"When people do this FWB sex, is there anything else involved?"

Yes.

Then how is it different from "regular" relationship sex? If you are emotionally connected, have deep respect for each other, have emotions for each other, are monogamous, and are sleeping together, how is that not a romantic relationship?

Or is it just the fact that you are not "in love" that makes it FWB sex?

AGG
Posted By: Drita Re: Friends with Benefits - 09/16/05 04:57 PM
Oh, and do you go eat and stuff like that? If so, who pays? Do you go dutch?
Do you have sleep overs? Is there breakfast? Who cooks? Is there a key involved, like if I wanted to come over after being out with friends...
Yes, GG, I'm curious too!
Posted By: CheckUrHeart Re: Friends with Benefits - 09/16/05 05:09 PM
No, I didn't think you were calling me promiscuous. My point is that I never have been. It would be important if I were, but since I'm not, my past sexual exploits are no one's business by my own.

BIG LESSON COMING: Whenever you marry, your relationship with any same-sex friend must change. It makes no difference if that is an FWB or not. You must put up boundries - the old windows and doors concept - and never risk betraying your marriage by having too intimate a relationship with your same-sex friend. For example, you never discuss marital or sexual problems with a same-sex friend.

"H is terribly hurt because I never said anything about FWB. Now his trust in me is shattered and I have some real problems. "

The answer here is that your H has a serious personal problem. You do not, nor should you ever be required to, give your mate a laundry list of the people with whom you have slept. Period. If they find out about it, your only reaction should be "that has nothing to do with our relationship. That's in the past and it's private." If your mate become jealous or develops trust issues, then it is a problem he need to work out with a psychotherapist, since this is not an appropriate or emotionally mature response. It only becomse your problem if you do not insure that you are not dealing with such a person before you say "I do."

"But what will you do with FWB when you are done and moving on?"

I will answer this question with another. How is this any different than what those here who advocate multple-partner dating have to do when they settle on one person? As I have said, we agreed on the ground rule about this up front. So really, it's very different than being suddenly and summarily dumped by someone you are dating and becoming attached to and then learn you didn't make the final cut.

I don't pretend to have all the answers, not do I think my FWB and I have thought of each and every possibility and have a contingency plan ready. But we've done better in this regard than most married couples do - I gaurantee that. And the lines of communication are always open and unclouded. Obviously there are risks involved. but are there any more risks than there are in a more traditional relationship? I think not.
Posted By: Greengables Re: Friends with Benefits - 09/16/05 05:21 PM
The thing is a close significant other, or a spouse, can tell if you've had a sexual relationship with someone. My STBX was amazed I knew he had had sex with two of the women he was friends with. That kind of intimacy cannot be easily destroyed. So you really need to be picky about it.

As to is there anything more than like wham bam, there'd better be. After all FWB implies both parties get benefits, not just the men. Personally, I enjoy the seduction.

As to your question, AGG, it's one I asked myself each time. My first case, I was still in love with the man. It took me years of heart ache to get over him simply because we remained friends with occassional benefits. So, that doesn't count.

In the second place, I'm sure we had a relationship even though we never fell in love or were even infatuated. Funny thing is, he knew me better and liked the real me better than others I had dated and been infatuated with.
Posted By: AGoodGuy Re: Friends with Benefits - 09/16/05 05:27 PM
Quote
Obviously there are risks involved. but are there any more risks than there are in a more traditional relationship? I think not.

Check,

I hope I am wrong, but I get the impression that you perceive my questions as criticism or an attack. If so, I want to assure you that they are not - I am just truly curious about the distinction between FWB and a BF/GF. I had the same questions as Drita - who pays for "dates", do you have keys to each other's places, etc?

What you are describing in your FWB relationship really sounds to me like a normal BF/GF relationship.

What is different?

AGG
Posted By: Drita Re: Friends with Benefits - 09/16/05 05:37 PM
Again, I will say that you and your FWB seem to have a good arrangement that works well for you. I only throw my thoughts in because, like I said, if you and I hooked up and I saw FWB at a BBQ and you had never told me and I figured it out, I would feel...not so much jealousy, but I guess the word would be betrayal. This is just me. And I guess, with that *I* would need the psychological counseling, right? No, I don't think so, but I am a very strong, self assured woman, and I would still be hurt by my H for not being upfront about the relationship.
I don't want the laundry list, or the list of names, but if there is a possibility that I'm going to run into someone he's um, uh, "done", I'd like to know. (Again, just me!)

Dumping Dating vs FWB-BIG difference to me! Are you saying that cutting off the FWB with your dear friend would be the same as someone you dated 3 or 4 times?

And I'm with ya on the same-sex friend thing! That ain't no lesson! Teach me something else!

Now, without being too informative, can you answer my questions about din-din, sleep overs, a key to your place, etc.?
Inquiring minds want to know!
Posted By: LostHusband Re: Friends with Benefits - 09/16/05 06:11 PM
Quote
I have never once discussed my sexual relationship with one woman with another - not even my wife. That is always, alway, always private. It has to be this way, because I only own half of the relationship and have no right to unilaterally disclose the intimate details. Radical honesty DOES NOT include details of past sexual relationships.

Radical Honesty, as defined by the creators of this site, does include details of all past relationships and a complete sexual history. It's done for a reason, so that one partner can intimately know their partner. One person in life who knows everything about you, armed with that knowledge of each other, you become interwoven each with a great understanding of each other.....

Secrets are nothing more than premeditated stumbling blocks to a marriage....
Posted By: Drita Re: Friends with Benefits - 09/16/05 06:14 PM
Good heavens, I'm in trouble then! My younger years were very busy!
Thanks Lost! I'm with ya!
Posted By: Karona Re: Friends with Benefits - 09/16/05 06:34 PM
LostHusband wrote:
"I'm glad that didn't work out, it truly would have been like feeding a cracker to a starving man. Now I sit at the table and feast with a beautiful wife".

Outstanding!!! What a wonderful statement!

Karona
Posted By: CheckUrHeart Re: Friends with Benefits - 09/16/05 07:13 PM
Oh, AGG, I didn't think you were criticizing. About the who pays thing. We both do. I make like three times the money she does and this isn't a cheap city to live in and she has to budget her money carefully. So usually, I pick up the tab, especially at an expensive restaurant.

I know what the creators of this site say, LH. While I think the Harley's have some excellent stuff here, they are not 100% correct in some of their ideas. This is one where every martial an psychotherapist I've ever met or read is in complete disagreement with them. Not talking about past sexual experiences is not a betrayal, it is not keeping secrets, and it will not have an adverse affect on a marriage. On the other hand, going into too much detail about your past sexual experiences most assuredly can. Were my wife to ask me if I'd had sex with a given woman I would answer honestly. I have nothing to hide, but the details my past sexual experiences are none of her business, just as hers are none of mine. To demand these details is disrespectful. If I had sex with Sarah last week and didn't tell my wife, I'm keeping a secret. If I had sex with ASarah four years before my marriage and I don't mention it to my wife, I am not keeping a secret. ItSomeone will have to come up with something a lot more substantive than "Harley says so" to convince me that full disclosures of past sexual relationsips will increase intimacy. Long experience shows it has just the opposite effect.

This isn't about having a good relationship, where the partners are open and honest. This is about insecurity. I, and everyone else here, knows that any SO we connect with is not going to be a virgin. They have had sex, probably with several people thoughout their lives. We know this, so we don't need the details, nor should be want them. If you cannot handle finding out that a same-sex friend of your SO was at one time a lover, if this makes you feel jealous, insecure or betrayed, so have no business getting into a relationship until such time as you can get an handle on why you respond this way and learn to put it into perspective. I do not want the details of my SO's past sexual experiences. It's none of my concern and it has nothing to do with my relationship with her. The only sex life I need concern myself with is ours.

Now, AGG, let me see if I can tackle your "difference" question. There are similarities. Perhaps the biggest distinction is one of perception. To me, a BF/GF relationship is a kid's game. After all I'm not a boy and she's not a girl. We're not knocking on 50's door yet, but we are walkin up the path to it. Besides, my opinion of BF/GF relationships is that they are somewhat silly in that people tend to treat them like "marriage lite." We are grown, middle-aged people. So alot of the touch-feely, romantic behaviors, much of which is little more than stylized, of younger couples have no appeal to us. We don't spend most of our time naked and in bed. We aren't constantly making gestures of love and affection, though there are expressions of affection and tenderness - especially in the bedroom. We don't walk round holding hands and hugging and kissing. We greet one another with a kiss, but when we watch a movie, we don't snuggle up on the sofa together. etc., etc., etc.

So you're scratching your head and thinking "what's the point?" Well, the answer to that is that if you are asking this question, a FWB relationship is not for you. If what you want is a romantic, traditional BF/GF relationship, that's what you should go for. An FWB relationship is an alternative for those who want companionship and SF, but without the deeper emotional entanglements. It should be noted that many FWB relationships eventually become romantic or even progress to marriage.

I understand people's confusion about this. It seems new and odd. But acutally it isn't new at all. Couples have been having similar relationships for thousands of years. Remember, until very recently, marriange had nothing whatsoever to do with love. The romantic marriage concept is only about 200 years old. Even today in Hindu society, many marriages are arranged by a couple's parents when the couple are still children. These couples must approach the development of their relationship in a manner almost exactly like I describe for my own experience. They move from friendship to marriage to sex and love is something that grows over time. And think about this: divorce is almost unheard of in Hindu society. They don't see the point.
Posted By: Drita Re: Friends with Benefits - 09/16/05 07:31 PM
Check! I wondered where you were, you must have been writing this book!
And what about keys, do you have keys? What other similarities are there? Maaayyybe I need to make some new friends!
You are obviously very learned and book smart, I've noticed that in posts past, and that's great. Hindus rock!
Maybe, just maybe, if you find someone you are interested in for LTR, you could see what SHE thinks, because you ARE right about one thing-it's about perception. Just because you perceive it not to be an issue doesn't mean that others don't. I, for one, DO want to know if I'm going to be exposed to a past partner. I'd rather hear it from him than guess it, see it, or hear it from someone else. My guessing/finding out=feeling of betrayal. His telling me=respectful honesty.
Yeah, I'm all grown up and have been with several partners. However, when I think of someone I love being with someone before me, for some reason I want to be the only one they have ever loved. I know I'm not, I'm not fooling myself, but hey, I live in my own world and the sky is purple!
I'm just scared for you and others that have the FWB and it backfiring and someone getting needlessly hurt and well, maybe damaging something good. Take it for what it's worth! It's a tough one, and probably why I couldn't do it!
Posted By: AGoodGuy Re: Friends with Benefits - 09/16/05 09:07 PM
Quote
Oh, AGG, I didn't think you were criticizing.

Whew <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. Good <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

Quote
So you're scratching your head and thinking "what's the point?" Well, the answer to that is that if you are asking this question, a FWB relationship is not for you.

...

It should be noted that many FWB relationships eventually become romantic or even progress to marriage.

Actually, I am not scratching my head at all <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. What you described is exactly what I look for in my relationships these days anyway, so I don't have a problem with that approach - I think it is mature and rewarding.

It's just that aside from the label, I perceive what you describe to be a normal healthy BF/GF relationship. You and your friend have common ground and interests, you are attracted to each other, you respect each other, you spend time together, you meet each other's EN's, you are emotionally connected, and you sleep together.

I think this is a great relationship, but it is not what I personally would consider FWB. I think when most here talk about FWB, they are referring to someone also known as a f***buddy, someone who is a friend who is available for the occasional romp <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />. In contrast, you are clearly (to me, at least) describing a normal, healthy, stable, and good romantic relationship. Especially since you say that you can see the possibility of a deeper and more loving relationship developing down the line.

I think of a true FWB relationship as a placeholder relationship, giving you someone to "take care of you" while you do not have a real partner. Which is far from what you are describing in your situation. What do you think?

AGG
Posted By: CheckUrHeart Re: Friends with Benefits - 09/16/05 10:09 PM
Drita, no we don't have keys to one another's places. Neither of us have any expectation that they other will be available for them and only them at any given time. All our time together is scheduled, just as it is with any other friend. I stick by my ideas about past relationships. You need to work on this, because from this point on, you can only be the lastest (an maybe the last), not the first (nor would you really want to be if you are older than about 22). So if these things bug you badly, you will unconciously poison any relationship you get into. I gaurantee that.

There's big difference between a f**k buddy and a FWB, AGG. The term f**k buddy originated in the gay/bisexual community. Forgays it's something very much like a FWB, but gays are rarely sexually monogamous. In the bisexual community, the term most often refers to a man with whom a married man hooks up with on the side for gay sex. (I have several gay friends and, oh! the things they have taught me! Most of it quite sad....) The term has been adopted by heterosexuals. But what a f**k buddy is to them is someone the have nothing to do with but sex. The way it usually works is a guy goes out with his buds and the pickings are slim at the singles bars. But he's horny, so he make a booty call to his f**k buddy. This really is a wham bam, thank you ma'am deal and friendship never enters the picture.

I will accept your charaterization of a FWB relationship, but only warn you that romance is not a part of it. When romance becomes a part of it, then it ceases to be an FWB and the relationship's boundries have to be revisited. It certainly is a different approach. I mentioned that our romantic marriage model is only about 200 years old. Doesn't seem to work very well anymore does it? I believe that this is because it is a failed social experiment, just like so many others we've tried in modern society. It may be time for us to try something different. As they say, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different outcome.

A bit OT....

I want to mention something about love itself. Our basic concepts of love were devised by the acient Greeks. Oversimplifying here, but they believed in different kinds of love. There was self love, familial love (this is the kind you would have for your wife and children), fraternal love (much touted by Plato, and hence platonic love), ergos (sexual love) and agapE, or spiritual love. To the Greeks, fraternal love was the highest form, since it insured peace and social cohesion. Early Christianity, drawing on the teachings of Christ, adopted agapE (now known as agape) as the highest and purest form. There was no notion of romantic love as we kjnow it today. To the Greeks, for a man to be crazy in love with his wife, as we are expected to be today, was considered evidence of imbalance and immaturity. Romantic love is a product of the Middle Ages and conceptually is only about 800 years old. This isn't to say that no one felt this kind of love before then, but it didn't become revered until then.

Oh, Drita, given that you appreciate Hindus, you really like this. I have a Hindu who works for me. Another employee, who knows nothing about religion beside Catholicism ask him the other day about practice and worship. I could tell the Hindu was struggling to adapt Eastern spiritual ideas into somethig a Westerner could comprehentd. The Catholic asked the Hindu "where to you go to church?" The Hindu looked at him as if he'd just dropped out of the sky and replied "Church? Go? I carry my church within my heart. Your "church" is my eternal soul and it is always with me. I cannot go there, but must always be there.I can read books or consult a guru for enlightenment, but I must go inside myself to find truth" I've often said that the best Christians I know are Hindus.
Posted By: AGoodGuy Re: Friends with Benefits - 09/16/05 10:30 PM
Check,

I enjoy reading your responses, thanks.

Quote
romance is not a part of it. When romance becomes a part of it, then it ceases to be an FWB and the relationship's boundries have to be revisited.

So what do you mean by romance? Do mean feelings (love, desire, whatever else), or do you mean romantic gestures like flowers? Put another way, what do you not have in your current "FWB" relationship that you would expect to have in a romantic relationship?

AGG
Posted By: aislinn Re: Friends with Benefits - 09/16/05 10:30 PM
Quote
Hi Aislinn:

To me, "friends with benefits" does not define casual sex. If you're friends with someone you care a great deal about them and your heart *is* involved. The level at which it is involved is the determining factor here.


I've always considered FWB to be more along the lines of casual sex - interesting that you feel otherwise. Based on your thoughts, is it safe to assume that your FWB relationship could eventually develop into a romantic relationship?

Fishracer, it really depends, read again my last sentence. For one person with whom I had a FWB relationship, it really was very casual sex. But my more memorable one which I described first...the sex was not casual. We were very good friends, did things together, talked on the phone, supported each other, etc etc. I was attracted to him but did not love him and I believe vice versa. There were too many red flags for me to consider a long-term relationship with him. We did not have the same life goals. It's not that I really did secretly love him but decided against trying to make it work...if you go by a love bank balance...I just saw enough to know that he was great as a friend but would not be great as a true partner. He kept my love bank in balance, you might say--never going in the red, but never really earning a high interest rate, ya know? We are not in touch anymore but I look back at that experience with fondness and smiles.

The situation I am currently in, yes, I could see it going far beyond friendship...all the way, in fact. But because of present circumstances, I am purposefully keeping somewhat of a wall up and not allowing my whole heart to be involved.

Couple of things I'd like to say...yes, the FWB can involve all kinds of things that are common to a regular dating relationship. Sometimes there is just something missing so you both know it won't become more emotionally intimate...sometimes you purposefully keep a wall up...you do it consciously. Casual sex does not interest me any more because it's just like masturbating, except there's a warm body there with you. I can get myself off, thank you very much, without having to worry about getting hurt. Casual sex is just too *EMPTY* at this point in my life. But if you have a TRUE FWB relationship...someone you indeed are very good friends with--it is not empty because you are still sharing YOURSELF with each other. Sure, you may be holding back--but there is some intimacy there that casual sex isn't likely to offer.

If I had a FWB relationship and became deeply involved with someone on a more intimate level, I would likely end my FWB relatioship altogether--as in not even friends anymore. I don't feel it would be fair to a partner to keep a friend around with whom I had a physically intimate relationship, even if I always felt that person was a friend. Because let's face it, that person was NOT "just a friend" on some level.

Hope that answered your questions, Fishracer. If not, let me know!
Posted By: lordslady Re: Friends with Benefits - 09/16/05 10:32 PM
While I have no intentions of posting my feelings or opinions about the main topic of this thread, I have found it interesting to read.

However, I must be really confused about how "older" people go about relationships or be doing something wrong (because I'm very, very close to the big 40 now, which makes me "older")...

Check, you said:

Quote
So alot of the touch-feely, romantic behaviors, much of which is little more than stylized, of younger couples have no appeal to us.

Uh, oh. Yes they do, to me. I still want that. I still want the hugs, the kisses, and all that touchy-feely stuff.

Quote
We don't walk round holding hands and hugging and kissing. We greet one another with a kiss, but when we watch a movie, we don't snuggle up on the sofa together. etc., etc., etc.

The guy I'm currently seeing does exactly this with me. He has commented many times about how he hopes I don't get tired of being close and cuddly, because it's something very much enjoys. My ex wasn't a touchy-feely type outside the bedroom (and for that matter, he didn't spend much time with me in the bedroom either), whereas this guy and I both have a very high need for affection. So when we walk somewhere, it is often with one of us having an arm around the other. If we sit on the couch, be it watching movies or football or whatever, there is cuddling and generally some kissing involved. It's great! I don't consider it a teenage thing at all. I just consider it a great way to show the other person you care, and I'm loving every minute of it!

LL
Posted By: CheckUrHeart Re: Friends with Benefits - 09/17/05 01:17 PM
LL, I can only say to you that over the next 10 years, you are going to change a lot. Much of what you think you cannot live without now, will be unimportant when you are 50. Conversely, things you don't give a second thought to now, will become very important. We change in somewhat predictable ways as we go through life, men in their ways, and women in their own. Consider Shakespeare's "All the world's a stage" speach from As You Like It:

All the world's a stage,
And all the men and women merely players:
They have their exits and their entrances;
And one man in his time plays many parts,
His acts being seven ages. At first the infant,
Mewling and puking in the nurse's arms.
And then the whining school-boy, with his satchel
And shining morning face, creeping like snail
Unwillingly to school. And then the lover,
Sighing like furnace, with a woeful ballad
Made to his mistress' eyebrow. Then a soldier,
Full of strange oaths and bearded like the pard,
Jealous in honour, sudden and quick in quarrel,
Seeking the bubble reputation
Even in the cannon's mouth. And then the justice,
In fair round belly with good capon lined,
With eyes severe and beard of formal cut,
Full of wise saws and modern instances;
And so he plays his part. The sixth age shifts
Into the lean and slipper'd pantaloon,
With spectacles on nose and pouch on side,
His youthful hose, well saved, a world too wide
For his shrunk shank; and his big manly voice,
Turning again toward childish treble, pipes
And whistles in his sound. Last scene of all,
That ends this strange eventful history,
Is second childishness and mere oblivion,
Sans teeth, sans eyes, sans taste, sans everything.

Shakespeare didn't make this up himself, he just adapted an idea from the Talmud (Old Testiment, Eccleseastes, if my memory serves me). the stages of life are also discussed in the Hindu Bhagavad Gita. There is much wisom in these ancient spiritual texts and psychologists know that they are pretty much dead-on right about how we change as we age.

Perhaps I should have been more careful in my selection of words. I did not mean to imply that the romantic trappings are not important to anyone my age or even that they aren't ever important to me. They simply aren't so much a part of our relationship.

My ex became completely unaffectionate about a year after we were married. She never hugged me, only kissed me goodbye as I was leaving, never snuggled with me, etc. This used to bother me a lot. But over the last four years or so, I've come not to care so much about such things. It isn't a case that I would never desire to give and receive affection, but it just isn't as important as it once was. When I speak of touchy-feely, I mean fake affection. Many younger people, especially men, enact these behaviors only because it is expected of them. It's only a part of the game. Before my ex turned into the Ice Queen, I would often take her in my arms just to hold her and smell her hair. At night as we were going to sleep, I would cuddle up to her just so I could feel her heartbeat. It comforted me. But do you see the difference? Mine were not stylized behaviors. I wasn't doing these things becaue they were expected and I'd better do them if I wanted to get some sex. Rather I did them as a reflexive outward expression of my emotion. Do you know where this desire to touch comes from and it's importance?

AGG, the answer to your question "what do you not have in your current "FWB" relationship that you would expect to have in a romantic relationship?" is simple. Love. I do not love this woman as I loved my wife. Nor does she love me. This may change one day, but neither of us want it now.

I specifically want to address your statement about the giving of flowers as a romantic gesture. We do this all the time, don't we? We give her flowers for having sex with us, on special occasions, St. Valentine's day, etc. And what do we do? Order roses or something without giving it much more thought than what her favorite flower is? But where does this custom come from? If tou read Medieval romantic literature, you will find that the gallant knight would often present his lady with a flower as a token of his undying love. But what is important isn;t the presentation of the flower, but the flower itself. Different flowers carry different meanings. I'll invoke Shakespeare again. In his plays and sonnets there are many references to flowers. In each case, the flower carries a specific meaning, and Shakespere would often use this to describe an inner emotion, as foreshadowing, or to reveal a character's true motivation. The symbology of flowers is part of what we now know as semiotics. Some believe it's roots are in Jewish cabalism. So the next time you want to give your lady a flower, study up on the symbology of flowers and choose one that conveys the meaning or emotion you want.
Posted By: Karona Re: Friends with Benefits - 09/17/05 01:33 PM
Nah, I still couldn't do it. [in any interuptation of the words]

I have to have emotional attachment, which would involve my heart.

I want that someone to hold me like you mention Check, or kiss my forehead, the "special" moments that to me go with the whole act of intimacy.

I understand that this could work for you or others, but it just wouldn't for me.

Good thread here FR! very interesting topic.

K!
Posted By: CheckUrHeart Re: Friends with Benefits - 09/17/05 01:55 PM
"I have to have emotional attachment, which would involve my heart."

Exactly, Karona. This is why I warn people off from sexualizing a relationship too quickly. Men really do have the capacity to divorce sex from love, but women usually don't. There are biological and emotional reasons for this difference and men you don't understand this are playing a dangerous (not to mention selfish) game. Guys who are playing the love game just to get some sex, will end in hurting a woman more often than not.

Consider this, though. A real FWB relationship as I have described it does have emotional attachment. There is also committment. I understand how you feel about this, as I did myself at one time. There is every possibility that I will again. For now, this is a better approach for me.
Posted By: Karona Re: Friends with Benefits - 09/17/05 02:46 PM
Check,

"Men really do have the capacity to divorce sex from love"

I will keep that in mind!!

Karona
Posted By: CheckUrHeart Re: Friends with Benefits - 09/17/05 02:54 PM
Have you ever read Dr. Alex Comfort's The Joy of Sex? There's a cartoon in it that points up a fundamental difference between men and women that too often becomes contentious. In it there is a gisgruntled man and woman. Each is holding a sign. Hers says "No love, no sex!" His says " No sex, no love!"
Posted By: Karona Re: Friends with Benefits - 09/17/05 03:51 PM
And That, brings us to, His Needs, Her Needs.

And, no, I have not read the book, but maybe I should.

Thanks for sharing!

K
Posted By: AGoodGuy Re: Friends with Benefits - 09/17/05 04:54 PM
Nice to see someone familiar with Talmud <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

Quote
AGG, the answer to your question "what do you not have in your current "FWB" relationship that you would expect to have in a romantic relationship?" is simple. Love. I do not love this woman as I loved my wife. Nor does she love me. This may change one day, but neither of us want it now.

At the risk of sounding stupid, what is love? I am assuming you don't mean the giddy "in love" crap that you so consistently speak out against (I agree with you, BTW). So then is "love" not what you feel when your partner meets all your EN's, if we believe Harley? And if so, then it sounds to me like your FWB meets all your ENs, doesn't she?

Hmmm, maybe that's what it comes down - there are some key ENs that she doesn't meet for you, and so you don't feel the love for her?

Let me know if you feel that I am prying too much, I don't mean to.

AGG
Posted By: CheckUrHeart Re: Friends with Benefits - 09/17/05 09:26 PM
Oh, AGG, welcome to the pantheon of poets! Poets, philosopers ans scientists have asked this question and fumbled the answer for eons.

Let's look at Harley's ENs:

1 Affection
2 Sexual Fulfillment
3 Conversation
4 Recreational Companionship
5 Honesty and Openness
6 Physical Attractiveness
7 Financial Support
8 Domestic Support
9 Family Commitment
10 Admiration

Now, is it true that your lover meeting these needs constitutes love? If you think so, consider that my cats can meet only #1 and yet, IU still love them. Consider the man dying of cancer, completely debilitated, confined to bed and near death. He can't meet any of these needs and yet, his wife still love him. I think Harley's idea is a good first approximation of the conditions needed for love to bloom between two people and I think he's dead-on right that one must meet one's mate's ENs unselfishly in order to keep love alive, but we cannot use it by itself as a definition of love.

My FWB meets all but 7, 8 and 9 of Harley's ENs. It wouldn't be approriate for her to be meeting these anyway. After all, she isn't my wife, so even if ours were a romantic relationship, she still shouldn't be meeting these.

I don't think you are understanding something funamental about me, AGG. It isn't that I cannot love this woman, but rather I choose not to. I am not ready to love again and I know this to the bottom of my heart. So I will not allow myself to love. It most assuredly is possible to keep yourself from falling in love. You have to have a lot of self-knowledge and discipline, but it isn't that hard to do.
Posted By: sunnyva39 Re: Friends with Benefits - 09/19/05 03:08 PM
[color:"blue"] I had a FWB relationship once in my early 20's and once in my late 20's.

I was disappointed when my FWB in my early 20's found a love interest. I guess for a brief time I wondered what I was lacking because he chose someone else over me. So in retrospect, I guess I had begun to develop some feelings for him, but not strong ones. Perhaps attributable to the fact that we had sexual encounters maybe 3 times and saw each other even as friends infrequently during that time.

Then my second FWB relationship happened in my late 20's. The guy was like checkurheart - he told me up front that he didn't want or need love - never said or would say the words and had no intentions of remarrying. I took him at his word even though his actions for the year we were together were more like those of a boyfriend. Eventually I met the man that would become my husband and broke it off with my FWB. During the year that we saw each other I think I went through a process that allowed me to divorce myself from my feelings for him. A couple of times I remember being upset over something then forcing myself to realize that there were no real ties in this relationship and he could do what he wanted... Anyway, two weeks after the breakup, he called me and begged me to give him another chance. He told me that he had changed his mind about everything and was in love with me.

Must of have snuck up on him. :P

V.[/color]
Posted By: TheBigGuy Re: Friends with Benefits - 09/19/05 03:51 PM
I've never had a FWB, but from all the forums I've read and responses to this type of question, the most common answer is that most of these relationships end up with one person developing stronger feelings than those of just friendship.
Posted By: betrayedinjersey Re: Friends with Benefits - 09/20/05 04:47 PM
Quote
the most common answer is that most of these relationships end up with one person developing stronger feelings than those of just friendship


Although I've never posted on this board, I did want to share that it's not always the case stated above.

It's very possible, and actually can be a very rewarding experience.

It should never be entered into unless both partners are REALLY clear on boundaries and expectations.

You both have to be in a really good place emotionally.

I had a FWB for quite awhile. It wasn't always like that, we actually dated exclusively at one point for a very brief time, but decided that just wasn't the way to go for us. I dated other people, he dated other people. It worked.

There was an emotional attachment, but not what I'd refer to as romantic. I think there's a clear difference there.

We're both M now, we're still best friends. We never had the would've, could've, should've and never regressed once we moved on to more serious relationships, are happily M to our spouses, and have no regrets.

Probably one of the best relationships I ever had.
Posted By: CheckUrHeart Re: Friends with Benefits - 09/20/05 07:38 PM
"We're both M now, we're still best friends. We never had the would've, could've, should've and never regressed once we moved on to more serious relationships, are happily M to our spouses, and have no regrets. "

You got it! If it's done right, by the right people and for the right reasons, and not simply used as a backdoor way into a romantic relationship, there will probably never be anything to regret, even if id doesn't. Can we say this about the other relationships we've failed at?

Of course, I've been told in another thread that I am immoral for having one of these relationships. So perhaps I should regret my profound lack of morality. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: faithhopelove04 Re: Friends with Benefits - 09/20/05 08:01 PM
"Of course, I've been told in another thread that I am immoral for having one of these relationships. So perhaps I should regret my profound lack of morality. " <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Check, you apparantly cannot stand the fact that someone would say that they believe your actions are immoral. So much for the tolerance of beliefs and opinions that you preach so passionately...

Funny how it's expected of others but not of yourself. I'm sure you cannot even see how very intolerant snd disrespectful YOU are.
Posted By: CheckUrHeart Re: Friends with Benefits - 09/20/05 10:04 PM
Yours is a completely false statment, FHL. I allow people to hold whatever beliefs they want to hold and I don't criticize them. However, I have found that fudamentalist Christians think they have some sort of right to prostyletize everywhere they go and interject their minority belief system on the rest of us. We are bombarded constantly by it. When you call them on it even politely, they go off on some rant filled with chapter and verse quote (usually taken completely out of context) and call down the fire and brimestone and evoke a wrathful God that Jesus came to tell us doesn't exist.

If someone wants to tell me that one of my actions is immoral and tell me why using something beyone "my Bible tells me so" I will happily and repectfully listen ande give their advice careful consideration.

No Christian will ever convince me that I am immoral simply because I will, under certain carefully considered circumstance, engage in mutually consentual sex outside of the confines of marriage. I do not try to force this belief system on anyone, or even attempt to get them to accept it. If others they consider it immoral because of the teaching of their particular faith, they are welcome to hold that view and I will support their right to do so. This is the essense of religious tolerance upon which this nation was built -- a tolerence that is waning in this day of conservative fundamentalism. By that same token, I demand that they repect my belief system and not try to force theirs on me. If I am wrong in my beliefs, then that is a private matter between God and me. That spiritual relationship is private and is not for you or anyone else ever to question.

I have striven all my life to be a good and moral man. I have never EVER deliberately done anything to hurt someone else, and when I have found that I have inadvertently done so, I have asked for their forgiveness. I have sought spiritual enlightenment and attempted to incorporate and reconcile valuable lessons from several religions. I allow others to seek their own paths and not demand they follow mine. Sio, Yes, FHL04, when someone who doesn't know the first thing about who I am beyond a few thousand words posted on the Internet calls me immoral because I don't happen to hold one of their beliefs, I'm not going to respond very well. I would not tolerate this from friends or family and certainly don't have to from total strangers.

None of you, I have noticed, have presented any reasoning behind your belief, but only fall back to the good old argumentum ad hominem. I note that you don't say HOW I have been disrespectful to anyone in this thread. You cannot, because I haven't.
Posted By: AGoodGuy Re: Friends with Benefits - 09/20/05 11:00 PM
Quote
Funny how it's expected of others but not of yourself.


FHL,

This is the fundamental issue I take with your and Bill's recent posting.

You two have stated that you engaged in behavior that you consider immoral. Check has not.

You may not agree with is choices, but at least he appears to act consistently with his (not your) beliefs. You don't.

I think given that, you should avoid throwing around the hypocrite label.

AGG
Posted By: faithhopelove04 Re: Friends with Benefits - 09/21/05 02:38 AM
"This is the fundamental issue I take with your and Bill's recent posting."

First of all, Bill and I are not one and the same, though I do support his intent and heart in this matter. I have only replies to things you guys have said.

"You two have stated that you engaged in behavior that you consider immoral. Check has not.

You may not agree with is choices, but at least he appears to act consistently with his (not your) beliefs. You don't."

OK, so let me get this straight. Just because someone does not think their behavior is immoral, thereby allowing them to live up to their own standards, they are automatically worthy of more respect than a person who has high standards of what he feels SHOULD be done, yet sometimes fails in trying to live up to those standards?

I am not arguing on whether Check's standards are low or high. I think it's safe to say that trying to NOT have sex for a long period of time (esp if it's indefinite) takes quite a bit more self-discipline than a more relaxed standard towards sex, whatever that may be. It is only sheer probablility that the person who has the more difficult task at hand has a greater chance of failing at that task, right?

Furthermore, if someone thinks its ok to commit adultery and lives up to their own standards - committing adultery and never feeling bad about it - is that more worthy of respect than someone who thinks it's wrong to commit
adultery and yet sadly goes against those beliefs only to then feel terrible about what they did, and seek healing, restoration and forgiveness? *Please note, I am NOT comparing Check's non-committed-sexual-relationship to adultery, it is simply an analogy in terms of a line of thinking.*

I just don't see how this line of thinking makes any logical sense.

It is good to have high standards to reach for. If you only aim as low as you think you can reach, you'll never touch the stars......

And btw, I NEVER called Check a hypocrite. I did point out that his statements/attitudes were inconsistent (or at least seem so to me), but I never typed the word hypocrite in that post you were referring to. Please don't put words in my mouth.
Posted By: betrayedinjersey Re: Friends with Benefits - 09/21/05 06:28 PM
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Can we say this about the other relationships we've failed at?


I for one, not really. Although it may sound contradicting, that whole FWB idea, takes a lot more care and consideration than casual sex or most friendships as a matter of fact.

That level of honesty, and intimacy is hard to come by.

There are very few people in my entire life I was ever more honest with than by former FWB. That still holds true to this day.

It's not like I ran out and had a handful of FWB. This particular person, kind of fit into that role, when all other definitions failed us. We weren't exclusive, we weren't "just friends", but didn't seek a romantic relationship with each other, while also not preventing one or the other in finding "the one".

I may go one step further and say it actually takes a greater level of mutual respect to maintain one of those types of relationships, especially when it comes to dating and all that jazz. I mean, I love and respect my H deeply, but he isn't allowed to date. KWIM?
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