I saw this over on GQ. Pep posted some good stuff on Love Busters. I was thinking how it applies in dating.

Love Busters

How can/should we best apply these concepts to dating?

Of course we don't want to Love Bust in any relationship that we care about. But in early stages of dating, we don't need to walk on eggshells to the point of not being ourselves, right? Obviously, if we have a problem of doing some of these things in general, we need to work on eliminating them from our character. In dating, I think as the relationship grows, we learn each other better, and work at "keeping the debris clear", to use the same terminology as the parable in the link.

Any thoughts?

I don't think it applies to dating at all.

When we're married for a while and that initial burst of love and energy has died down to the complacent stage, that's normally when Lovebusters appear. As we feel more comfortable with our partners, we also feel more comfortable telling them what we REALLY think (in anger, mostly)...That's how LB's are born....

It's always been my theory that those lovebusters shouldn't appear AT ALL if two people are only dating. It wouldn't make sense, would it? If a new relationship that is full of love and energy suddenly degrades to the LB stage, how can you explain it? We have many reasons for WHY LB's happen after many years, but other than plain incompatibility, why would the relationhip degrade to that level during DATING? I wouldn't want to try and build a relationship like that. Without ever having experienced the *honeymoon* stage when LB's don't exist, how can you ever build that love?

I think lovebusters should be avoided at all costs, but if I suddenly felt myself FEELING the need to react with lovebusters before I even married my Husband, I would have really thought about my relationship. There would have been something VERY wrong. This would be equal to dating someone who didn't meet your emotional needs--would you try and WORK on the relationship and force the person to meet your needs or would you simply find someone who DID?

Avoiding LB's is always a good thing, but if you have to constantly TRY not to *remove* love from your relationship, then something MUST be very wrong...

Well, I think it applies to dating, but the question is how. Certainly not the same way as marriage. Just like your last statement: "Avoiding LB's is always a good thing, but if you have to constantly TRY not to *remove* love from your relationship, then something MUST be very wrong... ".

None of us are perfect, of course, and we all commit lovebusters, so the question is how much do we tolerate from our dates, and try to negotiate, and how much do we expect THEM to tolerate from US, before we call it quits... and when? There's different levels... and a lot of this has to do with "boundaries" as well. On the first date, 2nd date, 3rd date, you may be attracted/interested in each other. Someone may commit some Lovebusters "selfish demands" perhaps (pushing the relationship sexually?, demanding attention?, etc). We may see these as red flags, but hope that they'll go away, as we negotiate our preferences (clearing the debris from the nets). Well, you can either clear the debris from the nets, or bail out. It depends on the severity of the infractions, and your tendencies. If you tend to bail out on every little thing, perhaps you need to learn to be a little more tolerant, and learn some negotation/boundary skills. As the date #'s go higher, we learn that these red flags either go away or they don't.

Certainly at 6 months, 12 months, 2 years, the relationship is MORE like a marriage, and Lovebuster principles apply more and more, although the marriage commitment is not there, and bailing out is always an option.

As we've mentioned several times on this board, and as you mentioned, yes, we want someone who naturally meets our EN's and avoids LB's... but people aren't perfect, and DO carry baggage. I'm trying to figure out how to negotiate the waters when those imperfections surface.... some of us either bail out when the waters get rough, stay too long when the waters are rough, or tend to pick partners that don't know how to handle rough waters....

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None of us are perfect, of course, and we all commit lovebusters, so the question is how much do we tolerate from our dates, and try to negotiate, and how much do we expect THEM to tolerate from US, before we call it quits... and when?

I think you share this thought with many people. "No one is perfect" is a dangerous cliche in dating. It's true--none of us are perfect, but in order to carefully analyze any potential MATE, we have to be brutally honest with ourselves. While my need for a man who provides lots of recreational companionship is VERY important, someone else may advise me to give him a chance because, after all, NO ONE IS PERFECT. I believe someone is perfect for ME, though....I chose him and he met my standard of perfection. He may not meet YOUR standard of perfection, but it's ME who has to live with him.

How much we tolerate depends on how much a good relationship means to you. I wouldn't tolerate it for a minute. Why bother? If I know my emotional needs, why should I hang around, becoming more and more attached to the person, knowing that he doesn't meet my needs? The last thing *I* need is to draw out the relationship longer than it should be and then have a messy breakup--what's the point of that?

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We may see these as red flags, but hope that they'll go away, as we negotiate our preferences (clearing the debris from the nets). Well, you can either clear the debris from the nets, or bail out. It depends on the severity of the infractions, and your tendencies. If you tend to bail out on every little thing, perhaps you need to learn to be a little more tolerant, and learn some negotation/boundary skills. As the date #'s go higher, we learn that these red flags either go away or they don't.

How can someone "negotiate their preferences"? If I have an emotional need and it ranks high, there is no negotiation. That's the point of MB--realizing what your NEEDS are and making sure your mate meets them. If I had to negotiate so my partner would meet my needs, I'd know he wasn't right for me.

Hoping that a red flag "goes away" is just pie in the sky thinking that backfires once the novelty of the relationship wears off. Sure, it's a bit premature to view EVERYTHING as a red flag, but in keeping with the EN questionaire, nothing that is a top need should be negotiated--if the man you're seeing doesn't have your top 3 needs DOWN PAT, forget it! What's the point of trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear???

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Certainly at 6 months, 12 months, 2 years, the relationship is MORE like a marriage, and Lovebuster principles apply more and more, although the marriage commitment is not there, and bailing out is always an option.

Right---but the moment a relationship becomes more like a marriage, deeper feelings are involved and it becomes MUCH more difficult to get out of the relationship. Why put yourself in that situation? It almost seems as if we've come to the point where we're putting OURSELVES in peril, for the sake of not pre-judging someone when we're dating. It's OK for someone not to be right for you....there are LOTS of men in the world....It's not necessary to try and make every man you meet the "right" one.

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...but people aren't perfect, and DO carry baggage. I'm trying to figure out how to negotiate the waters when those imperfections surface.

If a man has an imperfection, you have to determine if it's something you can look beyond. My Husband has imperfections, but none of them are things that mean a lot to me. I'm sure I have TONS of imperfections, but they're not the type of imperfections that will lead my H to cheat because I'm not meeting his needs.

As far as I'm concerned, this is all about personal preference. You have to know EXACTLY what you want in a man and then find it. Giving people "chances" only cheats YOU...

ok. nevermind.

thanks for responding, aeri.

LOL Faith!!

As you and I have talked about "T" I know exactly what you mean Faith! I am soooooo guity of it as you know. Sometimes I act before clearly thinking things out and it's something I need to make a conscience effort to avoid.

Keep on with this thread....you do have a valid point you are making. Hopefully others will jump in.

HUGS

Faith --
I haven't fully developed my thoughts on this -- but I definitely think you're on to something here.

I definitely use all of the principals I have learned here -- in my dating relationships. Heck -- I've even Plan A and B'd some guys!

Just being more aware of what the pitfalls could be in our relationship makes me a better partner.

My BF has been guilty of the "independent behaviour" LB'er. And it DID drain my bank -- so these concepts are really important in dating. I can't even tell you how important it is to be able to recognize and identify what it was that was bothering me - plus having the tools to know how to deal with it! This is priceless!

I think this is a far cry from the original post regarding Love Busters. Yes, if someone does not meet your top needs during dating, there is not much sense in continuing to date.

But I feel that you are a bit overly unforgiving regarding Love Busters - to read your reply would imply that if a partner was perfect at fulfilling all EN's, but had any Love Busters (and was therefore not perfect), that there would be no need to negotiate, but that it'd be time to walk, otherwise we would be settling. While nice in the ideal world, I'd venture to say that that is silly, as everyone has some annoying habits that are basically Love Busters but that do not rise to the level of dealbreakers.

Love Busters are perfectly negotiable, both during dating and during marriage, IMO. Sure, if they rise to the level of AO's or worse, I'd run for the hills. But it is perfectly reasonable to be negotiating with an otherwise "perfect" dating partner such things as his eating habits, etc etc. IMO.

AGG

I agree. If there are LBs early on in a dating relationship, run far and fast. I'll never forget experiencing an angry outburst from a man on a second date. It wasn't aimed at me, but...RED FLAG! Woah! He was TOAST after that. AFTER I was a safe distance away, that is.

Mrs. W8ing

[color:"green"] My BF has tons of independent behavior LBs. I wonder if I'm being too hopeful when I think that these might go away over time (some have already) as the relationship becomes more important and our time is more spent together and negotiated.

V. [/color]

What are the behaviours, specifically? How long have you been together? How long have you seen change for?

I have to say that I was in a relationship for 2.5 years that had a lot of independent behaviours, too. This was a breaking point for us. He liked to party. Without me. I wasn't a partier, but joined in sometimes. (Perhaps this was an RC issue, too.) I thought it was wrong and, on talking, it became obvious that the level of commitment I wanted was something he'd never be able to give me. Yes, I'd look seriously at any LBs that are going on now. From my experience things are most likely to go downhill after you are married.

Mrs. W8ing

I'm glad to see some more perspectives and discussion. THanks!

I read some of "Freeloaders, Renters, and Buyers" over the weekend. (does it have a different name now?)

I underlined some pertinent quotes to this discussion, and I don't have it with me.

But, Harley says we shouldn't be Buyers until we're married. We should be Renters while dating. To me, we should be practicing SOME of the MB principles, to SOME degree, but not ALL of them to FULL degree.

I think some of us approach dating as "buyers", and are looking for "buyers", when we need to behave more as "renters".

So, I agree with some of aeri's thoughts, based on this. We shouldn't expect our dates to be perfect, but we wouldnt' also work so hard to negotiate every little thing, as we would in marriage.

There is a middle ground though. Freeloaders refuse to work on anything. They think "accept me as I am", and also look for someone to fit the bill right away as well. Enjoy the ride, and no effort should be needed, is their philosophy.

Renters will put in a little more work and effort, and are more willing to put up with stuff.

Angry outbursts, selfish demands... I mean... we all do them from time to time... if a new dating prospect does it and it's BAD, yes it's a red flag, but mild-moderate love-busters... in general... I think... we watch for patterns. We can say "I don't like it when you do ___" "I don't understand when you did ___ " depending on the action. But running away from mild infractions is being a Freeloader, IMO. And tolerating patterns of LB's without speaking up or leaving the relationship is asking for trouble.

Just rambling... hope this makes some sense. Will be back later.

I completely agree. Clearly serious LB's are a red flag and should be a sign to bail out, but small, correctable LB's should be brought up for discussion to see if they can be addressed and resolved.

AGG

[color:"green"]W8,

He has a history of weekend long parties. The first summer we were together he did stuff alone when I had the children for the weekend then spent time with me when I didn't have the children. Some of that was with friends, some without. I complained about sharing what little time we had alone without the children with all of his friends around.

The second summer we were together he spent more time with the kids and also seemed to fall back into a pattern of having two to three social events at his place every weekend. I was exhausted.

He wants to please me, he is scrambling to think of things to do that are not grown up get togethers so that I don't burn out next summer.

I have to face the fact that I am just not as social as he is. I want a certain amount of time alone without feeling the need to entertain friends.

I am working on my own view of the situation as well. He doesn't consider this kind of get together as company and often has only peripheral interaction with his "guests". I wasn't brought up to be so casual about having people over and feel obligated to feed, beverage, and entertain guests.

He gave up his weekend long winter monthly events where his friends would come spend an entire weekend while he turned his house into a public venue. Although he claims he hasn't done it for me, he has slipped and said essentially that while he rationalized doing it for economic reasons, he did do it for me and he resents it at some level.

V.[/color]

yes they are applicable.

since I have been single, using them as a no no guide has led to no arguements at all with anybody I've dated (2xbf's)...at all.

good guidelines for relationships I think.

Wow. This is really interesting. I just I expect some independent behavior in the beginning, just as I expect it to decrease as time goes on.

I've got to say, annoying habits are something I'm on the lookout for. LOL. Can I live with them? Am I starting to find some of the habits endearing?

I'd say angry outbursts, conciously selfish demands, and disrespectful judgements would be deal breakers. Also, from the point of view of my LBing... While I try never to do it, I don't worry so much about how the other person preceives it. With B, every time I disagreed or told him I didn't like one of his behaviors, I was the one LBing in his mind. Even my being unhappy was seen as hurtful for him.

I won't walk on eggshells. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />