I haven't updated or posted about my situation in awhile.
I was just giving it some time.

We are approaching the one year mark (about 3 weeks from now). This is when I said I would make a decision about continuing or not continuing my relationship with L.

We have a different end-goal in mind. I want to eventually get married. That might be in 3 years, 5 years, whenever the time seems right.

He wants to NEVER get married. He can see himself with me forever, eventually living together but **never** getting married.

I can't live with that. I am just not wired to "date" someone permanently.

On our first date, we talked for over 6 hours about our beliefs on everything. He said marriage was a possibility.

Over time, he made various comments about the **never** part, so at about the 6 - 7 month mark we discussed it in more detail. His philosophy is that all marriages end up bad, can list numerous friends and family with failed marriages, doesn't think he'd be any good at it, etc.

I decided to just let it go at that point. To just spend more time together and maybe he would overcome his objections. (gosh -- Plan A I guess!!)

Seriously this is the best relationship I've ever had. He is a wonderful man. He treats me so well -- and I treat him well in return. We're both givers. (I've never been with a giver before -- gosh is it nice!!)

So now the subject has come up twice in the past month. His position has not changed.

We have planned time on Friday to talk about it.

But, bottom line -- I might understand his point of view but its highly unlikely I'm going to change it. And its highly unlikely (ok -- impossible...) that he is going to change mine. (I think I deserve the respect of marriage...I can expound more on that later).

So, I guess we wish each other luck and move on. Makes me very sad, but it will only get sadder if we keep on for another year or two. Its inevitable that this will end. Better now than when its even harder later, right?

I find this a curious statement b/c even though you say this you imply w/ the former that unless it ends in marriage, he's not being respectful? I may be reading too much into your statement, so please feel free to explain more.

I have some thoughts (I'll call it my light bulb moment) I'd like to share on a similar issue that came up b/w BF and I, but I'll wait for your answer

I know how hard Fri will be <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> HUGS!!

I also would like to hear the reasons why you would actually consider breaking up a wonderful relationship over this issue. Is it the "living in sin" aspect, having more kids, security, or what?

Believe me, I too would not expect myself to want to "date" forever, but then again, I am a fellow spouse-hunter, so I am biased I guess.

I can see the dilemma - wonderful relationship on the one hand, but if it is destined to go "nowhere" in your eyes, why waste time in it when you could be pursuing one that would lead somewhere... I know many here advocate the "one day at a time", "que sera sera" attitude, but you know me, I also think that spending time in a relationship that is not destined to go where you want to eventually be is sort of like spinning your slicks, er, wheels...

Ugh, tough one.

AGG

Lexxy ~ I truly feel for you. I too am facing the end after 14 months of a great relationship.

But non-negotiables are just that!!

In your case, there is something inherently flawed about wanting to continue indefinitely without a commitment. Marriage is all about commitment. We are meant for that. We each one need that very much.

Don't settle. Don't move your boundaries. You are correct on this. He is not.

In my opinion, there is something there with him that is a RED FLAG & you may not know all of the story. But back in there somewhere is the reason for his stand. It's not just about others around him have failed. Because we can point to numerous ones that suceed!!

Hang in there & keep praying for wisdom in your situation.

Best,
High Flight

DW -- my thoughts about the respect issue center around this: I find long term live in situations where one person wants marriage and the other is virually married anyway but can't "commit" really disrespectful.

So he can live with me, share finances and assets, enjoy all the benefits of marriage -- but not commit?? No thanks. I have too much respect for myself to live in a situation like that. And if that is the only place we are headed I feel like it is better ended now than later.

AGG -- I know a few couples in those long term live-in situation, and in most of those cases it is the men that just can't commit to marriage. And I don't get that mindset. They are faithful to each other, share all the responsibilities, what is the hang-up????
I'm going to listen to what he has to say about it. I'd really like to understand better. I feel like the answers I've gotten so far have been kinda superficial.
Remember, this is the guy who also had a big hang up about the "LOVE" word too. We managed to overcome that one. But he is just adament about marriage.

HF -- there is a bit of a red flag there. I am hoping Friday will give me a deeper understanding of his position. He had a couple of really bad relationships in his past that resulted in GF's cheating on him and getting pregnant (that happened twice to him...) So he dated no one (not one single date) in twelve years.
So maybe he's just really really set in his ways. He's had twelve years to develop the thought that he'd never get married. But for a guy who's experience has been limited and negative -- he is a GREAT boyfriend.
But the other side of that is that I am a GREAT girlfriend. And I deserve someone who would be enthusiastic about being with me. I shouldn't have to nag or beg about this issue -- I refuse to.

Have you considered reading Freeloaders, Renters and Buyers, it may describe your BF very well? I think it does a great job explaining the difference between being married and not. The latter makes for a Renter, the former for a Buyer.

I totally disagree with the concept that marriage is just a piece of paper, there is way more that goes with it than a piece of paper. Like I said, the book explains the fundamental difference very well.

By all means, go and talk to him on Fri - but my guess is that you already know the answer, as you said it above - he is a great BF, and you are a great GF - but that is not what you are looking for. If he is so insistent on staying on those terms, he is telling you something - and my guess it that he is telling you that he wants to have to option to change the rental agreement at a future date, something that he knows he can't do if he became a buyer. Put another way, I think he likes having one foot out the door, in case things ever change. It is not meant to be pessimistic, it just means that he is not interested in taking a chance and losing control. I suspect if you push things on Fri, that is what it will be all about - control. Renters can have control, Buyers can't.

AGG

I've not given a lot of thought to remarriage at this point. I haven't clarified what I want but I'm getting closer & AGG's word really hit a cord. This does let me know I should be clearer about what I want for myself before I start down the relationship road.

You're ahead of me lexxxy because you already know you want marriage, nothing less. His thinking is a HUGE barrier.

The words that hit home the most are "...he wants the option to change...he likes to have one foot out the door in case things ever change...he is not interested in taking a chance & losing control."

I'm sorry you're in this situation lexxxy. What's interesting to me is he can be a great BF. I wonder with the amount of hurt he carries around how he can detach from it to be a good BF but can't see his way to a commitment.

AGG -- great suggestion on that book. I've read some of the concepts and some excerpts -- it probably fits this situation ideally. Think I'll make a trip to the library today.

Nams -- he is a great boyfriend. He does all the right things instinctively. He calls me 3 - 4 times a day. He makes a point of finding time to see each other. He makes plans ahead of time with me. He is someone you can count on. His word is gold.
For someone like me that's been cheated on repeatedly -- I trust him completely (no small thing!)
He's friendly and nice to my kids, my family, and all my friends. Everyone who's met him loves him.
He is incredibly good to his family and friends. He is the most considerate person I've ever known.
And its so weird -- because he is committed to me anyway. We don't see other people (I have zero interest in dating anyone else.) I treasure what I have with him.

I have tried to talk myself into staying in this relationship. But I can't. Because it would slowly drain my self-esteem. I already question what faults I have that make me not worthy of marriage. Even though this is his hang-up, I would have expected that he could see the value in me to overcome it. I want to be with someone who will treasure me as much as I do them. Thats what I need to tell him tomorrow.

I wonder too if the prospect of losing you & the apparently great relationship you two have will give him pause...

I sure hope so.

I absolutely understand when you say you will feel de-valued, lose self esteem, if you were to simply live with him. I don't know that I would have had the forsight to understand this were I in your shoes but to see the words I think I would.

Best of luck {{{{lexxxy}}}} you're a strong woman!

Lexxy,

You are right. I'm not good at putting quotes from one post onto another, but he needs to know what it is doing to you to know that he never wants to marry again.

The two bad relationships are no excuse. I can see where he might have a lot of fear. I'm almost acared to death at the thought of marrying a man with kids again after what happened in my last marriage. But still I couldn't just live with a man for the rest of my life. It would do everything to me that it's doing to you. Plus in time resentment would kick in at some point down the road because I was willing to commit but the other person wasn't. That would not be a good thing either.

So, just go ahead and be radically honest with him. Let him know that you have to pull back to yourself because of what this is doing to you. That you aren't interested in dating anyone else, but that you can't live with yourself in a situation like that. Let him know how much this hurts you, how much you love him, but that you would lose respect for yourself at the thought of just living with someone for the rest of your life.

You can do it. We all believe in you!!

Best wishes and prayers

Becki

Lexxxy, It’s obviously not you. It’s the construct of marriage the man objects to. I bet he treasures you just as much as you treasure him. He just can’t demonstrate it in the way you need him to. That’s what makes this so sad.

I personally can understand how he feels. While I wouldn’t go so far as to say “I’d never remarry,” marriage doesn’t have the same meaning for me as it used to. My experience of marriage has been so negative that I see it as a human construct used to help keep societies organized. I agree it’s not just a piece of paper; it does change a relationship. In my experience, it often changes relationships for the worse. The number of “happy” marriages I know of is very small: maybe five. Most others I either can’t tell, or one or both spouses is miserable. Marriage is highly speculative.

That, of course, is just me. Obviously, most others aren’t as afraid of the risk as I am. I agree if you really want the structure of marriage, this man is not for you.

And, if he doesn’t give pause, as Nams said, I wouldn’t take that as he didn’t care enough. His limitations don’t mean he loves you less. It just means he can’t give you want you need. And those are two entirely different things.

Just when I start thinking marriage is what I want for my future GG writes the words I've said to myself & others confussing me all over again. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Does this mean I'm not ready for a man in my life? He'll ask me what I want for my future & I'll give him a blank, dear-in-the-head-lights stare. I'll stutter & stammer, ah, ah, I don't know... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Sorry lexxxy, I shouldn't make light of this.

That’s not making light of it, Nams. And, I don’t think being ambivalent about marriage means you’re not ready for a relationship. I might get remarried in time, but I think I’ll go in with far different expectations than I did the first time. I don’t think I’ll ever again equate “The Marriage” with “The Relationship” like I did the first time. I was so busy trying to save my marriage, I never saw my relationship with my spouse was dead and decomposing. Next time around, my focus will be on the relationship.

(sorry for threadjacking, Lexxy.) And big hugs to you. I know this stinks.

Green -- thanks. I think I logically understand that its his problem, not me. But I am anxious to hear more about his philosophy on the whole thing.

He's never been married, so maybe I am giving his opinion less credence than from someone who's actually had the experience and wants nothing to do with it.

Maybe this is something he could overcome in time. But I need to know that. If he can be open minded, and we can at least consider it, I'd hang in there. But he is so flat out adament. So if that is the case, I appreciate his honesty. I prefer not to linger and make this harder hnd harder.

He deserves to be heard, but I doubt there is much of a philosophy behind his position. How much of a philosophy is there behind the desire to get married? Not much - it's just something you want, which is fair. His philosophy is different, which is also fair. Unfortunately, they are incompatible.


Hmmm, that sounds like you view his position as an "illness" of sorts, which is not fair to him. You should not expect him to change or grow out of this outlook any more than he should expect you to grow out of yours. Not be judgemental, but it would be somewhat disrespectful to think that his position is something that he would "mature" out of - he may view yours the same way.

Having said all this, I am curious to hear how your chat goes - good luck!

AGG

I’m dittoing AG on that. Prior to marriage, I would have thought your boyfriend’s “no marriage” stance immature. Now, I know better. I also think it’s interesting that he said he wouldn’t be a good marriage partner. If there’s one thing I’ve learned, it’s that when a person tells you something bad about him/herself, you can believe it. B. used to tell me his emotional age was 17. Several other ex-boyfriends have said other things that turned out true. I myself just admitted to being compulsive about some things, like Christmas present wrapping.

OK, I realize that I'm operating off of a minimal amount of second-hand information, but...this resistance to marriage sounds fishy to me.

I haven't read the book mentioned, so what I have to say may be covering old ground, but I'll say it anyway.

I can understand someone saying they don't believe in marriage. It would make me want to look carefully into their values with regard to issues of love and commitment, but a philosophy which rejects marriage as an institution is not inherently incompatible with the values underlying marriage, in my opinion.

However, that doesn't seem to be what's going on here. The objections that L is raising are not philosophical, and they are not even experiential (in which case additional time to allow for healing/recovery might be warranted). Instead, his rationale is that "all marriages end up bad, can list numerous friends and family with failed marriages, doesn't think he'd be any good at it, etc." Speaking bluntly, that's all bogus. It's the kind of nonsense which gets presented as a smokescreen.

Lexxxy, you say that "its so weird -- because he is committed to me anyway." And yet, given what you've written in this thread, I see no evidence of that. If all you mean is that you "don't see other people," that's not a commitment. That just indicates that you adequately meet each other's needs at this time, so that the effort involved in looking elsewhere is contra-indicated.

You say he is a "great boyfriend." OK, fine, but...a boyfriend is not a husband. The behavior that you've described in this thread comes relatively cost-free. Thoughtfulness, integrity, charm...if these are aspects of his character, it is no great effort for him to act accordingly. And sure, no doubt he does put in effort, but it seems that he's getting pretty good reward for it.

But what happens when life isn't going so smoothly? What happens when circumstances arise where the cost goes up? That's when you want someone beside you who not only is committed, but who values that commitment.

Life, especially in the long-term, doesn't much resemble dating.

Very well said Gnome D P...

Yes, very well said GDP, and precisely the point of Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders. It's one thing to be a great boyfriend (Renter), but totally another to decide to become a husband (Buyer). There is the saying about "why buy the cow when..." but we won't go there.

The real point is that a great BF/GF relationship is nothing like a great marriage, and Lexxxy is smart enough to realize that. In the current relationship, neither one is committed, so it's easy to be independent and in control. But, if we buy into Harley stuff, neither of those can work in a marriage.

If the BF does not want to get married and Lexxxy does, there is much more of a difference than a piece of paper. It is the fundamental outlook on what they want in life, and without that being agreed on, I can see why resentment would build in time.

AGG

AGG -- I will respect his position, I just want to understand it.

I don't want to act prematurely if this is just something that he needs time to adjust to.

I don't know if you remember this about him, but the "L" word was a big huge deal for us too. It does not come naturally to him whatsoever (even now). It takes a lot of time and patience for him to get used to some ideas.
I totally pursued him last year. Getting him to go out for our first date took some coaxing!

Gnome -- great points. very interesting. I'll give you more background, and I would love to hear your thoughts.
Really intriguing about the low cost effort/reward ideas, and you're right about the commitment. Maybe its me that needs to think further about that -- I am not acting any differently in terms of commitment than if we were married, so maybe I am projecting that onto him and wondering what the big deal is?

So background: He always thought he would get married and have a family. Even after a couple bad relationships he still was open to marriage. After the last one, and sometime during his twelve year hiatus from relationships is when he decided that marriage is a "bad deal", which was solidified by watching lots of surrounding friends and families go through divorces and problems. His parents in particular have an interesting relationship. They've been married for over 50 years, but don't seem to enjoy each other much.

My ex-wife came from a background where virtually all of her examples of marriage were bad. When I met her, she was quite up-front about her intention to never get married. We developed a friendship anyway, and that relationship grew into something more...

I married a sweet and loving and wonderful girl. But she never got over her fears, and she chose not to confront them. In the end, her fears were stronger than her love and mine, and she fled.

Time does not heal all wounds. Love does not heal all wounds. Sometimes the wounded one has to do some very hard work in order to heal, and in order to that, he or she has to want it very badly.

Each person and each relationship is different, of course, but...frankly, Lexxxy, I'm not optimistic about your prospects with L.

This is nearly the same script I had to live out!! Married a sweet, young & awesome girl who had buried deep inside the scars of anorexia, mother abuse, boyfriend sex abuse, etc.

Same deal. She chose not to confront them. Our MT said "she plays her cards closer to her chest than any client I've seen in 20 years!!"

In the end, just as with you, my love, her love, MT and $$$ spent big time was not enough. She fled....

And not unexpectedly, she's still single. She is quite bitter, won't date, just keeps to herself. When I have to hear her voice on voice mail etc., she has a very harsh bitter tone to it. VERY angry sounding.

Gone is the sweet girl I once married. She dramatically changed as life went forward and she refused to confront her demons.

Being this afraid of commitment & marriage going in is clearly a HUGE RED FLAG!!! Lexxy, do this with your HEAD...not just your heart!! OK?

Of course, no problem. What I am saying is that you may hear the words, but still not "understand" him - sort of like a liberal explaining his views to a conservative. To you, there is no rhyme or reason why anyone who is in love would not eventually want to get married; to him, the reverse is true. I doubt you'll ever really get over that difference.


Oh, I remember that alright, and I am not sure if this is a good or bad thing. I guess the optimist might say "oh, ya, that's just him, it takes him a while to agree to a date, say 'ILY', or decide to get married". The pessimist (moi) would say "Yikes, this guy has deep issues - takes pursuit to get him to go on a date, takes him forever to utter the 'L' word, none of this normal stuff comes naturally to him, and oh ya, he does not ever want to get married".

I guess in my view, you have already stretched him to the very extreme of his comfort range - you may think that the next step is a small one, while I think that the next step would snap him back into his old habits. JMO.

AGG [/quote]

Lexxy

AGG is very perceptive, and keep in mind that using rational words to explain emotional reasons that may not be very well understood, given his background and his environmental learnings, may be pretty difficult.

i wouldn't rely much on the words as the final, absolute, reason, as his emotional perception may not be very good.

wiftty

AGG and wiftty -- you guys are the best. Thanks for your wisdom!

And AGG -- I got the book, already 1/2 through it. I took their test, way extreme on the Buyer scale -- go figure! LOL

I'll be gone until Saturday -- thanks everyone for your thoughts and well wishes!

Be true to yourself, your answer is within that truth.

I do have a question though, how old is he?

Dr. Phil's words say it better than I tried to:

Nothing is resolved, but we did talk. Here are his points:

1. Marriage means growing up. He says he lives like a 20 year old.

2. Doesn't want to be responsible for another person.

3. He likes to "disappear" from time to time. This one is a little hard to describe. He has a very large circle of friends, but none of them is a daily part of his life. He might see them every few weeks. What he didn't really think about until we talked about it is that I am part of his daily life. He calls me an average of 3 times a day.

We had just an awesome time together this weekend.
So, while I realize that breaking up is inevitable -- I am having an impossible time doing it.

Didn't someone post that you should believe what someone says? So if BF believes he is 20 YO, then believe him.

I do better by considering my X as a 17 YO, it fits.

I'm so sorry. Be true to yourself. You deserve so much more.

Ok, so we're down to the real reasons here, not just the "oh, I've seen too many of my friends marriages fail" excuse......

What I don't get is why he would be ok living together given the above reasons. Would you not be sharing a home? Responsibilities? Building a life together? Or would it more like "roommates" in his mind, where he doesn't answer to you, b/c you are not a "wife"? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> Living together is no less a commitment in my mind, but I guess not having it officially on paper means he can bolt at will.....like AGG said, keeping that one foot out the door.

He is very much acting like a 20 year old <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I know it's must be soooo hard finding out that someone you enjoy, are compatible w/ and who is good to you, yet does not share your view on commitment.....I'm so sorry! ((((hugs))))

One thing I wanted to ask of you.....your desire for marriage......why is it important to YOU?

I only ask, b/c this came up fairly recently b/w BF and I....

BF and I have been on the same page 100% as far as marriage etc.....we both were opposed, big time! Obviously, it's carry over baggage for us both. For me, I was loving the freedom of my life and I was burned pretty badly, so no, had NO interest of some man coming on in and stinkin' up the joint, kwim? For him, his marriage was never a good one. They just weren't really compatible. He and his ex knew each other a mere 3 weeks before she got preggo and the rest is history.They made a go of it, but never had a good foundation. So his view of marriage is not so good.

Ok, so here we are 20 mo's later (w/ a 4 mo break in there) and things are good. I mean really good. We are IT for each other. No doubt. We speak in long terms, speak of a future together, etc etc.....

So all of a sudden, my mind gets a little swirly, and I start thinking, hey, I could see myself marrying this guy sometime in the future. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> Wha????? When did THAT happen???? Before I was like, nope, don't need or want that....I'll live w/ you, MAYBE, but marriage? No way. Well, my stance on living together changed too. I figured, I don't want to do that w/o marriage...main reason being the kids. I want my daughter to value commitment and marriage if she chooses that for herself. I think it would make her feel more secure in that this person is in her life for good and can't just walk out on a whim, kwim? Admittedly, that shouldn't be the only reason, but I'm being honest. So, if we are going to live together, we need to be married, otherwise, we keep going as is. So BF and I had this convo, he says, he'll never say never, but he's not sure about marriage right now. It's just a piece of paper blah blah why do we need it? Our commitment is no less to him, loves me still, I'm IT for him, we have a future together, but to him, marriage is like the end....the end of the journey. I reacted like I'd been punched and worse yet, FLOORED by my own reaction! I was so upset! Were'd that come from?? I mean, I felt the same way too about marriage right??

What I realized was that my head knew what he was saying, I understood what he was saying, that it was a byproduct of his failed marriage, but all that my heart could hear was that I don't want to marry YOU. Guys, it triggered all my baggage, all my feelings of rejection and abandonment and I was pissed! How dare he not want to marry ME!! How dare he not love me enough to conquer all his own fears and marry me! How dare he not want to PROVE to me how much he really loves me by WANTING to marry me! Never mind that I'm not a 100% on marriage myself AND blending families and all the inherent issues scare me to DEATH. That's not the point!

Well there was my light bulb moment....I realized this was about my past and about my ex-WH, who DID, in fact, reject me, who did abandon me. I realized I was equating a marriage commitment to validation that I was worthy. Ugh. Pretty difficult stuff to admit but there you have it. Once I admitted that to myself, I was able to let it go, and really hear what BF was saying, that he wasn't rejecting me, he's just not sure, as am I. I know we are in it for the long haul....what remains to be seen, is how it will play out and I'm perfectly comfy w/ that.

So my question really was more about why marriage equates respect to you? Did you feel disrepected in your marriage?

I'm not intending at all to pass any sort of judgment here. ONLY wanting to help all think through to the obvious...

Deeeep Breath...so here goes.

I have NO IDEA nor is it any of my business, but if in our relationships, there's already SF outside of marriage commitment; then there's the crux of our problems. It's more than SF too. It's the whole approach to relationship that says let's live like we are married committed, but really we're not.

For example:
So we expect undefined terms into the indefinite future....
So we spend inordinate amounts of time living together.
So we start to comingle funds & expectations of financial support.
So we begin to take up regular domestic chores & tasks for each other...not just favors & nice gestures.
Some begin to treat the other's kids like they are theirs to discipline & instruct, etc.

It goes on and on. Psuedo married life...but without the commitment.


It's a completely dead end street emotionally, psychologically, and above all spiritually.

Why?

Intimacy is the reward of commitment......

I think of it this way for me: Without commitment, I have no business opening myself up to the levels of intimacy that marriage brings. It just isn't safe. It isn't sound. It isn't healthy.

Hope this helps as we all think about our futures.

{{{Hugs}}} for the pain we all share as we wrestle with this VERY difficult post-divorce recovery period of dating and learning.

High Flight

You bring up some interesting points HF. Definitely some food for thought. I appreciate your input......

Hmmmm, I don't agree w/ this. SF outside of marriage aside (b/c my views are different than yours) I think of couples who've been in long term relationships, we're talking decades here, who are not married, yet share a life together....I do not view their relationship as any less of a commitment. To me they just made a different choice. Person that comes to mind is Oprah. So, ok I don't know her personally nor her relationship intimately, but she's been w/ her SO for 20 years. 20 years! She seems to be thriving, emotionally and spiritually, seems like a woman who's shown tremendous growth personally (is it obvious I"m a fan?), and appears to be very successful (and I'm not talkign about just money and career). I listen to what she says, the types of shows she does, and she seems pretty with it. And she did all this w/o being married but in a committed relationship outside of marriage. I find it hard to believe that they lack the true intimacy you speak of....

*disclaimer* I realize we only see what she chooses to put out there, but i'm just sayin'..... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I also have 3 other very good friends who are in LTR of 10+ years (some w/ children) and I didn't think of them any less committed than I was when I was married. Interesting that their relationships have endured and mine didn't.

DW -- you can read my mind! When he says he doesn't want to get married he says it generically. Its all about the institution of marriage.

What I hear is he doesn't want to marry ME. Its all about my failure to overcome his objections.

A year ago, I remember saying to myself that I LOVE being single, and I should stay completely single for the next 10 to 15 years! I was having the time of my life! Then he comes along and changes my whole world.

HF -- I want to talk some more about the topic you brought up. I'll be back later today. Maybe it even deserves its own thread.

DW -- what you have made clear to me is that I have my own issues to battle too. I need to think more about why I need marriage.
And I need to really think about High Flights comments prior to considering any living together arrangement.

Thanks for being here for me!

I understand your frustration DW with the seeming failure rates of the marriage institution these days. It is dismal.

But can we blame the institution? Has "Marriage" somehow failed? I don't think so. Human beings have failed to live up to their commitments, the institution has not failed at all.

It would be very helpful for us in this discussion to re-visit exactly what Marriage is??? And isn't???

And then, what living together ala Oprah is??? And isn't???

When we begin to unpack these things, then I think we'll begin to find that the Oprah's of the world are not automatic heroic role models for us....and neither are those who've suffered through failed marriages automatic Zeros who should not be emulated.

This should be an important and helpful discussion!! I'll be back after I listen a bit to some others chime in.

Lexxxy,

Even though I am a married man, I must remind you that: MEN SELDOM MARRY THE WOMEN THEY HAVE BEEN COHABITATING WITH. Like my W says with regards to these men with benefis "why should they buy the cow when they alrady getting the milk for free?" So choose wisely.

Thanks TMCM -- I'm not contemplating any living together arrangement.
Sadly, I am more leaning towards ending the relationship entirely.
Right at the moment, I don't have the energy to start a dialogue about marriage or living together. I'm feeling very "checked out" of the whole process.
If/when this relationship ends, I'll probably just take a break from dating for awhile.

OK, got a few minutes to share a bit more of my thoughts on this.

Marriage as an institution hasn't failed. Human beings have failed to keep their commitments!! Marriage, like anything else can either be used by the fallen human ego, or it can be guided by a Higher Power! It is a living organism that continually reflects the constant daily choices of the 2 individuals involved.

Why is marriage a more profound commitment than other forms of relationship - such as living together? Because it's an agreement that when the "for worse", "in sickness", "for poorer", in essence - when the great negatives of human existence comes around, and there's a whole lot of shaking & screaming & anger & raw emotions going on --> Neither of the partners to the forever commitment is going to leave the room!!!

Both partners are safe to go through whatever emotion is called forth from deep within, to be true to one's self, to be upset & straight up about everything. No game playing. And all the while it is safe to do so because no one is leaving!!!

Marriage is a publically declared commitment before God and mankind. It invokes the presence & blessing of the Almighty Creator God. It honors His stated purpose for marriage by blending two lives into one. So that true synergy might occur and the two becomes better than what either could be alone.

~ High Flight

Living together is a form of "renting". It is great that Oprah and others have made a longterm rental out of it, but it is still a rental. As long as it works, they'll keep renting. But if it doesn't, well, the deal may well be off.

Of course, with the mockery that divorce has made out of marriage commitment, I don't know if marriage is the "purchase" that it used to be - people seem to be treating it in the same way as rentals nowadays - "for better or for worse or until I get bored".

But in principle, marriage creates a commitment that living together or "dating" do not. That is why someone who wants marriage, and someone who wants to only live together are actually miles apart in their outlooks.

AGG

I've vacilated between the idea of re-marriage or co-habitation & I think the reason comes down to fear. Fear of trusting someone again so I can count on them not running when things get tough. Perhaps the idea of divorce is less appealling given the devestation VS walking away with not much upheaval for the person doing the walking.

Maybe the pause I'd like to think one takes when contemplating D gives them some incentive to work harded.

The trick is finding the person with the behavior to back the commitment not just use the words. I'll bet most of us thought we had that in our spouses. Actually, that was the one thing I thought I could count on with ex & one of the first things I asked when he said he wanted to D; what about our commitment.

by the way AGG, I got the book "buyers, renters, freeloaders" and I took the quiz.
I am in the Buyer category (big-time) 10-1-1.

So now I'm going to try to find time to have him do it.

Personally, I'm afraid of being stuck back in the cage.

Well, if I ever make the break I'll probably go back to my freeloading ways.

This relationship works so well for me. I'm just lost on what to do, so I'm doing nothing.

Its so funny to come such a long way in one year. A year ago, Green, I would have said the same thing. Everything was on my terms -- I was quite elusive, and no way was anyone gonna pin me down. I was really happy being single and unattached.

So a big part of me knows that I could be that way again.

But another part of me just doesn't want to bother seeing anyone else. Maybe I just need some time alone.

But, I still don't know how to make the break.

Hey Lexxy,

Sorry you are feeling so confused. I was kind of funny about committment.

I lived with my ex before we were married, but told him up front that I would only do it for two years before I expected the relationship to move forward. I told him I wanted more children and didn't want to stay in a situation until I was too old. Two years later he proposed.

I think he might have intended to sit on the engagement, though, because he wasn't happy at all when I kind of fast forwarded wedding plans because of a custody hassle I was facing with my older daughter. (Her dad tried to use the living in sin legal argument for us being too immoral to raise her...)

My soon to be fiance mentioned living together a few times and I sent him the buyers renters and freeloaders information.

I also talked to him about some of the things discussed on this board as far as the intimacy and trust that exists in a commitment.

It didn't hurt that a time or two I looked at him and said "We're not married" when he tried to imply that I should be amenable to something that didn't concern me or my finances since I was totally independent of him - which I pointed out.

Only in a true partnership would both want the same goals and work toward them. An incomplete partnership leaves both with different goals sometimes and the differences don't have to be worked out - they can just fester.

I guess that I would ask you what he adds to your life. How much of himself he holds back.

I wanted a life partner, not someone who held back for whatever reason. The "renter" you do what you want and I'll do what I want kind of "freedom" just stunts intimacy imho.

good luck,

V.

Thanks Sunny...

I think you are so right about the lack of intimacy in the renter type relationship.

Being that I have teenage children who I am still trying to mold into good people, I don't think a living together arrangement is what I want. I still plan on setting an example to them.

Plus unless you put a deadline on it like you did, I think those tend to drag on for a very long time without the next level of commitment. Not for me.

What we have now suits me fine....but since we disagree on what should happen a few years from now, I don't want to invest a few more years in this. It will only get harder to make the break. (or maybe I'm wrong, and a couple years from now it'll be easy to make the break -- any thoughts??)

I know I'm dragging my feet, at least I'm not fooling myself!

I think it comes down to another element, and that is the person you're dating. With some people, you can see yourself being married to them, with others, there is something that makes your gut tell you that while they are great for dating, there is something missing from making it into a marriage. I sense that this is Lexxxy's discomfort - that it is she who is not good enough for her BF to want to marry. It may not be a rational fear, but I can see where it might come from.

I think that I see some of this in my relationship with G. I have always seen myself being married again, and have never deviated from that vision throughout my dating of the past five years. So when I met G, and saw so much promise in that relationship, I thought that marriage would be the logical result, assuming things continued the way they started.

Well, as I saw more and more differences between us, I started questioning our compatibility more and more. To the point that today, while I still love being with her, going on dates and vacations with her, and having her be a huge part of my life, I nonetheless see it less and less likely that I would be married to her.

So, to me this is an example of how who you date does influence your feelings about marriage - if I felt that G and I were more compatible, I would not hesitate to move to the Buyer status - as it is, I doubt I'd ever go beyond Renting. And yet with the right person, I'd be a Buyer in a heartbeat <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />.

AGG

I understand what you are saying, and you are right, but, at the end... it comes to the same - no married to you...


Unless you have quite different 'timing', he should feel the same... if he feels about you the same as you feel about him...

Also, I don't like his reason - not to grow up... (You didn't say his age?)
It means, IMO, I'm not taking responsibility, I just want to have fun, no obligations... I'm here today but just a bit of being serious about something I run and am free again...
Hope I'm wrong in his case...

And you are right.
One of the best advice I've got, so simple and so true, is:
If you don't know what to do (decide), don't do anything. Wait until you are ready.


I think you are wise to think this way. Where you want to be in the future.

You cannot know if it'll be harder to break up in a couple of years vs. now.
'The time would tell...'
Something for sure will happen to make all of it easy... this way or the other... It's just a question do we want risk that time and one day in the future consider it as wasted...
Well, being so happy with him is not 'waste', right?

I see some similarity, somehow... L. and AGG... ?

AGG said:
"I know many here advocate the "one day at a time", "que sera sera" attitude, but you know me, I also think that spending time in a relationship that is not destined to go where you want to eventually be is sort of like spinning your slicks, er, wheels..."

And also:
"I have always seen myself being married again, and have never deviated from that vision throughout my dating of the past five years.
---
So, to me this is an example of how who you date does influence your feelings about marriage - if I felt that G and I were more compatible, I would not hesitate to move to the Buyer status - as it is, I doubt I'd ever go beyond Renting. And yet with the right person, I'd be a Buyer in a heartbeat <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />."

You both know what you want yet.....
??

I.e. are you going to 'settle for less' for "it's so good otherwise", or you are waiting for some changes, or just too weak to leave and go again from the beginning to search for a person you can pursue your goals and reach desired destination with?

I do wonder this... for myself...
I do hope if I ever fall in love with someone again, I would not give up what I really want and need... would not waste again my time...
Or I might do the same (afraid so)...
Or it is better to do the same...
Huh, really tough one.

Lexxy ~ I want to say this gently & with care for you, but you're right in one sense -- at least you're not fooling yourself.

But you're also doing something else that isn't good IMHO: You are fooling WITH yourself!!

How can this be ULTIMATELY healthy for you to agonize back & forth, toying with your own heart & feelings for him? I can "hear it" in your words as you cycle up & down from about to can him to ... we had another terrific weekend!!

So where will this approach get you in the future?
How will this help you reach the best place for your life?
How can being with him help you meet a better person suited for you?

I'm going to say something plain & simple: You guys are on vastly differing tracks. And two cannot walk together forward except they are agreed!

Both of you have your own goals. They don't end at the same place. Mature marriageable commitment is all about both parties being willing to lay aside the single selfishness that says "my goals & needs alone are what need to be met"; and is willing to say "OUR goals & needsa are what we will meet together".

If it is not best for our common good (POJA), then we will not go there.

This is all fundamental MB stuff. A good question we should all ask ourselves continually is: How good does my current relationship meet the fundamental MB principles??!!

I mean, we're all here because MB principles didn't exist in our former failed marriages. And yet...(me too), we're so often continuing these same dead end patterns - ignoring plain & simple MB principles!!!!

Think about it...Me too!! I need to really think about it.

well -- BTM is right.

AGG -- you're in the same boat I am. You know you want to get married in the future, but you're spending time with someone who doesn't fit the criteria. What are you doing about it? Or are you still evaluating if G could be the one?


HF -- thank you for your post. You're right, except for one thing -- I'm not cycling between dumping him and having fun with him -- they are simultaneous. I enjoy all of my time with him, but with the realization that we're not going to end up together.

I like your question:

But help me to define the list of principles...

radical honesty
undivided attention
emotional needs
joint agreement

what else? and what if I come to the conclusion that we are doing great on every aspect listed above except he just doesn't want to get married?

Basically, yes. The one difference between you and me is that in your case, your BF has given you the fairly unequivocal answer that he will never want to get married, so basically, you have your answer and need to figure out what to do with it (e.g. accept a relationship without marriage, or seek out marriage with someone else).

In my case, I do not yet have the definitve answer that will not want to marry G. I am seeing more and more that this is what I will end up with, that she is a great match for me as a companion, but not something I want as a partner. But I am not completely sure of this yet, and I want to give it more time to see the forest and not just the trees. (I know some will say that I am simply raitonalizing and wasting time, but I don't see the need to hurry and make any decisions right now).

One of my good friends has made a funny comment - she said that ideally, G would buy a house right next to me, and we would be able to spend lots of time together in our relationship, without having to entangle our lives, which is where I see us as being incompatible. I know that G does not want that (she definitely wants to be married), but for me, I had to admit that this sounded like it would be a good option. Which again told me that the way I see G now is more of a companion than marriage material. Which is totally out of character for me. Weird. But it does go to show that your decision about marriage vs. dating is influenced by who you are with.

AGG

I think its wise to completely evaluate the situation and not act rashly.

You're right about my situation. Although I am not considering accepting the relationship without marriage. I have accepted that it will come to an end, I'm just trying to choose the time for that to happen (which I think will be sooner than later...)

And once that happens, I won't be seeking marriage with someone else. I'll probably return to my singlehood freeloading plan.

Hmmm, allow me to be the devil's advocate. If you won't be seeking marriage, and will return to your freeloading days, then, uh, why not do that with your current BF, with whom you have a great "no-marriage-potenital" relationship? i.e. why not be a freeloader with him - it sounds like he would love a freeloading relationship, and you two are very compatible that way?

AGG

I KNOW....I get myself into this circular argument all the time!

IKWYM... I got in the same boat with G when I tried to break up with her a couple of months ago, and she asked: "Why end such a great relationship now, why not give it time and see where it goes?" I had to admit that yes, the relationship was great, and even though it may not lead to marriage, why not continue it and see what happens? But yet I know that she wants marriage, and I am pessimistic that I will ever get there with her...

Like you said, circular argument <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

AGG

L and AGG, I think you both are hoping that maybe, given some time, that they'll change.....

The romantic in me sure hopes so, for both of you! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Holy smokes AGG, I think your optimism might be showing <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Hehe, not really, I have given up on that long ago <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />. I think that with 8 months under our belts, I know G pretty well, including her habits, patterns, etc. I don't expect her to change. What I do hope might change is my reaction to her habits. Some days I get frustrated to no end; other days, I don't let it bother me. I don't know if at some point I'll learn to accept all of it; I hope I might, but I don't expect that to happen.


Funny <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. If she were willing to accept my friend's joking idea of just being companions, that would be a possible approach. But I know full well that come December or a bit past that, and G will want to know where things are headed. If asked today, I'd have to say that I do not see myself being married to her - so I can be the companion, but not the husband. Unfortunately, just like Lexxxy does not want to accept that with her BF, G won't want to accept that either.

AGG

Hm, I'm not so sure...
Why wouldn't she continue R hoping you change your 'reaction to her habits' and you learn 'to accept all of it'...? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Could you truly be ok w/ that? It thought you said you were more wired for marriage....even though you've said this:
or is it more a matter of compromising what one really wants to fit who you are with?

I dunno.......all I know is there must be something wacky out there floatin' in the cosmos for AGG to be willing to contemplate a renters relationship and for me to have even *THOUGHT* about a buyers relationship w/ my BF! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

You are right, I was projecting my thoughts, I certainly cannot know for certain what G might or might not do <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

But, going by what she has always said, she wants to be married. And she does not want to date a person for many years, like she did with her previous BF. She has always said that a year is about the right amount of time to decide.

There is no way to know that at some point I might not learn to accept her as is. In fact, if I look at the future, when my kids have grown and moved out, I may very well be a different person with different needs. By that time (not to be morbid), her parents might no longer be around, and her niece/nephew will be teenagers and likely at an age where they won't care all that much about her visits back East. Between that and some other things, I can see the possibility that we might be more able to make a happy life for ourselves. But, that is 10 years from now - I doubt G will want to "date" for 10 years. But if pressed today, my answer would be "no" - we have way too many things on which we do not see eye to eye and which I know will cause us tremendous friction.

AGG

AGG, does she know what you think (of M with her)?

I somehow cannot understand that you didn't tell her what would you need from a woman in order to marry her...

DW -- when this topic came up for us last March, that is EXACTLY what I was hoping (that he would change his mind.) I dropped the subject and just went back to enjoying our time together.
I guess it was sorta Plan A with a deadline. My deadline was the one year mark. Which is now.
So I've brought up the subject again -- and nothing has changed.
So now its my choice to make.

And thankfully all of you here have brought up a lot for me to think about. I can't thank you all enough!

I understand his side of things. So I have accepted that I have the choice of continuing as is....or ending it.

So, now I'm trying to understand MY side of this equation. Why do I want marriage?
Why do I feel like I have failed if he doesn't want to marry me?
Right now, I feel like I want marriage, but only to HIM. If not him, then no one. So what then?

I don't feel like I've processed everything yet -- so no actions or decisions made yet. But its not because I'm hopeful of him changing his mind....

Lexxxy, maybe he does need some more time... first to think of himself being married, get comfortable with that feeling <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />, then to want so...?

I dunno. I am more wired for marriage, which is why I don't know that I'd be OK with just companionship. Moreover, I don't think that G would be OK with it, so really, my main question to myself is more "can I see myself being married to G?" than "can I see myself being a companion with G?".

AGG

Nope. We haven't had relationship talks for a while.


What do you mean? I told her lots of things that I need from a woman in order to marry her, and she meets all those stated criteria. But, words are cheap, and this is why talking is not enough, and we resort to dating <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> - to see what the other person is really all about.

As I got to know G, I saw many many many things which were very different from what I was used to, as you know. Not a single one of them would be an automatic dealbreaker, which is why I kept seeing her trying to put together the forest from the trees. So now, I am close to seeing the forest, and although not any one tree is cause for a breakup, I don't think I like the forest. But it was not something that could have been addressed right upfront, it took time to get to know her.

AGG

Not to speak for Lexxxy, but it sure does not sound like it's a matter of time. Sure, maybe in 10-20 years he'll change his views, but he sounds clear in what he wants or doesn't want.

I think that waiting for a person to change in some fundamental ways is fraught with danger.

AGG

AGG, just curious...you said "can I see myself being married to G?" than "can I see myself being a companion with G?".
How do you see yourself without her?

:exxy,
You don't know me; been a lurker over 3 years and been following your thread with zest. I think you are me!!!
Ended a 2 year relationship with B in June and I think back to my thoughts and feelings and everything you write is nearly me. I miss him something awful and it ended badly. Apparantly a lot of issues I didn't want to face, but all came out in the wash. I know there is someone out there for me, but I am in pain now and hoping it gets better. Best wishes to you!!!

hi jasmine,
wow -- yeah we have a lot in common!
just wondering -- do you have any regrets about ending the relationship?

I'm having a quiet weekend at home. Kids are all off doing things, L is on a fishing trip with the guys. (which means he has to sneak in a phone call or two without them knowing it -- so he doesn't get teased by the rest of the alpha's...)

lots of time to think...

Not wanting to hijack Lexxy's thread, but she may find this useful.

AGG, can you tell us why you "don't like the forest"?? That's a very compelling statement.

Anxious to hear your reply.

Thanks!
High Flight

HF,

I'll be happy to try to explain my comment, it might be somewhat cathartic for me anyway - but you'll need to hang in there till Tue, as G is about to arrive here for the weekend, and I probably shouldn't be writing this with her looking over my shoulder <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />.

AGG

I suggest we look at our own fear of commitment, rather than just focusing on our partners' commitment issues. I'm in a new relationship and felt BF was pushing me away. I remembered I was the one who backed off initially, for good reasons, so he was honoring my request.

sigh....

I had a 90% wonderful day with my parents and aunt and uncle yesterday.

They all love L, and think he is just the greatest (me too).

So of course, my Aunt wants to know when we're getting married. And I kinda dance my way around it -- not ready blah blah blah -- just feel like I'm just a big liar. And yet don't really want to just blurt out the truth cuz it'll just make us all uncomfortable.

But it just left me feeling yucky.

And I'm getting this from other friends and family frequently. Anybody got a snappy comeback for me???

L~

Snappy comebacks can often hide the truth. You don't need snappy comebacks, you need truth telling!

You might be surprised where truth telling & stopping the game playing might get you!

Best,
High Flight

High --
where am I playing games???

Dear Lexxy. I don't think YOU are playing games with him. I think you are playing more with yourself. We all do it. Hope, dream, hope, dream, delay, procrastinate, avoid the pain, ignore hope it will go away, etc., etc., ... you get the idea.

You've said enough that I think you realize the game is really up. You just need to find the courage to move on & make a decision with your head vs your heart.

Now with your family members, I think that just doing a "snappy comeback" would be some gamesmanship. They cannot do anything good for you by way of wisdom, encouragement, sharing, etc., if they don't know the real deal.

What gain would you achieve if you were to share with trusted family the truth about this situation - much as you've done here? They know you & love you far more & better than any of us could. Their wisdom & support is worth alot. Don't you think?

I know it's hard Lexxy. Believe me, I know.....

High Flight

I took some time before responding cuz I wanted to think about what you've said.

I don't think I am playing games with myself. I am very realistic. There is no "hoping/dreaming" going on. If anything I am probably too coldly logical about the whole thing.

I'm not reacting quickly, because I really wanted to spend sometime pondering DW's advice and comments. It really resonated with me. Before I break up a really good relationship, I want to know why I'm doing it. What is it about marriage that makes it the end target??? I am very satisfied with our relationship right now, why and how do I think it needs to change?

About the "truth-telling"...hmmm....
I would confide in my parents (easily) but not so much the others who were present. My aunt is a WS who married her OM, after breaking up a 30+ year marriage. Not exactly someone I would seek relationship advice from.

I also seem to get these kind of comments from casual friends and acquiantences -- I think simply because L and I have been together for a while. Its almost like a chit-chat thing -- something to talk about. But I guess I have been unusually sensitive to this topic.

I think me blurting out "L never wants to marry me" might be a bit of a buzz-kill, ya know? People aren't asking to pry, or to get into a big drama-filled conversation.

Anyway....still thinking....

I think you are very very wise to do this Lexxxy....figure out what's going on w/ you FIRST, make sure that you are seeking/want marriage for the right reasons and not simply looking to heal old wounds w/ it.....

We sound like we are in very similar places <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

HUGS!