Marriage Builders
Posted By: cardsonly Question for/about men being "in love" - 07/23/08 03:09 PM
Can a man "choose" to be in love? Does it make sense that a man can get caught up with the endorphins of a new relationship and become enamored but then pull back and make a conscious decision to slow things down? If so, then this may be an emotionally unavailable man fearing commitment, correct? And if that is the case, then why would this man continue in the relationship, claiming to want to be in a relationship but fearing the closeness?

I have been dating this man for about 14 months. I have been divorced about 2 years from an "unavailable" man suffering from considerable mental illnesses (bi-polar, severe anxiety, depression, etc). He was certainly unavaible to love me and participate in a marital relationship. After divorcing I dated a man for about 6 months who I later beleived to have a narcissistic personality disorder. He was TOTALLY unable to emote. The relationship was extremely painful and unbalanced. He had many of the surface qualities I was looking for, but yet he was certainly unable/unwilling to emotionally attach.

I was married 20 yrs to the mentally ill man and read many books to learn about why I stayed in the marriage that long. I learned much about myself and searched for answers as to why I chose "unavailable" men. AFter the 6 month relationship, I began dating my current BF. I was hyper-sensitive to NOT repeating my pattern. I watched his every move and my every move, constantly observing how the relationship was playing out. I did not want to be hurt yet again caring for someone who was unable to care for me.

I kept myself distant from him initially, although he pursued me with a vengeance. After a month or so of his calling & texting me daily, I went out with him. I knew from the start to be leary based on his long work hours (he owns restaurants and is either working or "on-call" much of the time). We began dating and I allowed him to continue to pursue me. I had vowed to never again be the one to do the chasing. After about 2 months of dating, much to my surprise I began to really like him and trust him. I saw many traits that were deeply important to me...more important than the type of work or education or family background someone had. He showed me a strong religious faith, honesty, integrity, and a positive outlook. We began to fall for each other.....

Then....I sensed his pulling away. Classic commit issues rooted in fear, according to my books. I discussed it with him and he denied it was about commitment, claiming it was about being busy and having work problems on his mind. He professed over and over that he wants to be with me, is not interested in anyone else, is working towards us being together.

I began to trust him and the relationship even though I had my own insecurities and fears which were rooted in my past relationships with men unable to love me. I was open and honest about my fears and he was a rock for me. He didn't leave the relationship even when I felt clingy and needy. I worked through a LOT during the course of our dating as our friendship grew and solidified.

BUT, I am at a point where I still do not understand his feelings for me. He says he is not "in love" with me because for him that means making a long term commitment. I believe he believes that loving me and allowing himself to be "in love" with me is only an option when he is ready to make long term plans. This is confusing and troubling to me. I can love him NOW even though I know that neither of us is ready/able to get married or commit to anything else right now. Is it possible he thinks he should not love me because it means he would be ogligated? We have already agreed that we are committed to the relationship in terms of dating exclusively and being open with each other about problems that arise, but I really don't understand this about not being able to love me.

I am so confused about what to do with this relationship. I want it to work, yet to some degree I feel he is not emotionally with me because of his keeping a distance from "love". It almost feels like we are now just "friends with benefits", and I feel like the relationship is at a standstill. We spend no more time together now than we did at the outset of the relationship (usually once a week due to our busy lives), although we talk at least once a day.

So...is it possible that he is aware of all of this and is able to choose the degree of feeling he has for me? Or is he simply unable to emotionally attach to me, in which case I should move on to a relationship where the feelings can be reciprocated? HOw do I know if he is ABLE to go further with his feelings, or if this is it? I am willing to address this issue, and I feel like I have broached these areas in gentle ways to see how much understanding he has. Should I keep discussing about this, or cut my losses and go? He has ALWAYS engaged in "relationship" talk with me, and I TRULY believe he cares about me and WANTS a meaningful relationship. I am just concerned that he has a significant problem in this area. He has told me over and over that I am everything he wants. If I want to continue with this, how would I facilitate his ability to open up and trust me with his feelings and emotions? Or how do I tell if it's a hopeless cause?

I'm really at a point where I need to decide if I should keep investing in him and the relationship. I am 46 and he is 49, so I don't want to invest any more years in something that is never going to be fulfilling. If this is as far as he can love, I know that it is not enough for me. I do not want to be "stuck" in a relationship that is destined to always be painful because he cannot love me on a deeper level. Any thoughts, opinions, or ideas would be very helpful. Thanks for reading!!
Hello, Cards.

It's good that you are so aware of your history, and you are wise to approach this relationship carefully. Hope you have a good therapist. He/she can help you evaluate your approach to this relationship, measuring against your previous ones to see whether you're really playing it differently. If he's 49, odds are that he's been married before. What do you know about that marriage? If the story you've gotten paints the ex-wife as the sole reason for the split, beware. Talk to people who've known your BF for years...history is the best predictor of the future.

Does a man "choose" to be in love? During the initial stages, it isn't much of a decision. Brain chemicals make it happen for both of you. Intellect kicks in later, and that's when real love can take root--when it isn't biochemically driven. You both make decisions to ACT love. It changes from a feeling to a verb. When we act love to each other, the feelings follow. (I say that with conviction from having lived it the past two years, long after our "feelings" of love had morphed into the typical American marriage where each partner "does his own thing" and finds themselves alienated. From there, it's a short slide to an affair, which brings the whole thing under a microscope. After that, you make it or you don't, but the plan Dr. Harley has put together for making any marriage work gives mutual, mature love the best recipe for longevity. If it works after infidelity, it should be even easier for you two.)

Why not order Dr. Harley's books, "His Needs, Her Needs," "Love Busters," and the workbook that goes with them (find them all on this website). If your BF is willing to work through the course with you, you will learn more about what each of you needs to do to give your relationship its best shot at success.

You have to decide if he's able to meet your most important emotional needs ("ENs" on this board). To do that, you need to clearly identify them, and discuss them together. The book will help you do that in a very concrete way. You seem to be meeting his needs, but it's got to be a two-way street. You're the one with the concerns, so don't jump in too deep without getting them addressed.

Best of luck to you.
Posted By: Seabird Re: Question for/about men being "in love" - 07/23/08 03:53 PM
I have a theory that I have expressed here a number of times based on one of the statistics that Harley includes in his Basic Concepts. I can't recall it exactly now (and I'm too lazy to go digging), but he states that women leave men far more often than men leave women. The ratio was something like 3 or 4 to 1. Maybe someone else can chime in with the exact numbers. The point is though, that there is a huge disparity in the ratio.

Given that his numbers are accurate, I suspect that as men get left over and over, we eventually become conditioned to it. Gun shy if you will... Men get a bad rap for being unable to commit. Really cynical women accuse us of acting like "dogs", or always just waiting for "something better to come along".

I don't think this is accurate, though it's understandable to see it that way. I think instead that men who don't commit do so out of fear of being left, yet again. It begins to seem to us that women are quicker to jump into a relationship, but they're also quicker to jump right back out.

I can obviously in no way know the mind of your BF, and I can't guess as to what is holding him back. Fourteen months certainly qualifies as reasonably long term relationship though and I personally find it odd that he can't or won't allow himself to commit to an ILY.

To answer your question more directly, I don't know if it's possible to choose to actually fall in love consciously (some here say that it is). Instead, I think that we can choose to allow ourselves to fall in love. If that makes sense. In other words, we can consciously choose to lower our barriers, to trust in ourselves and in our SOs, to accept our SO's love, and allow ourselves the freedom to reciprocate it.

In a way, it sounds a bit like your BF is in a kind of withdrawal. He's not allowing you to make enough deposits in his bank to allow himself to fall in love with you. I suspect one culprit is your limited time together. One day a week of face to face time just isn't enough.

There might be other external factors distracting him. No offense, but is it possible he's got another woman on the side?
Posted By: Tabby1 Re: Question for/about men being "in love" - 07/23/08 03:54 PM
Wow, if you find the answer, write the book and make millions!

People (both men and women) cool off after the newness of the relationship dies down. Then you can get a better idea what they will be like down the road. They will never revert back to the early days and likely anything that isn't looking great now (eg emotional availability) will only get worse. This is important to keep in mind. But something more disturbing in your story is this:

[/quote]BUT, I am at a point where I still do not understand his feelings for me. He says he is not "in love" with me because for him that means making a long term commitment. I believe he believes that loving me and allowing himself to be "in love" with me is only an option when he is ready to make long term plans. This is confusing and troubling to me. I can love him NOW even though I know that neither of us is ready/able to get married or commit to anything else right now. Is it possible he thinks he should not love me because it means he would be ogligated? We have already agreed that we are committed to the relationship in terms of dating exclusively and being open with each other about problems that arise, but I really don't understand this about not being able to love me. [quote]

Can you ask him what his definition of "in love" is? Because for me, this would be the dealbreaker right here. You have been together 14 months. This means you have both cooled off and are past the endorphins. It also means that you like each other enough to continue the relationship. But maybe on his side, this is all he needs. You clearly need more. I would need more.

The way I view it is that the relationship should always progress forward, as if it was destined to long term, until it hits a point like this where it stalls or your needs diverge. Even the first date fits this pattern - you wouldn't even go if you knew for certain there would be a second date and so on. He seems to have hit the point where he wants to go no further.
Posted By: cardsonly Re: Question for/about men being "in love" - 07/23/08 04:23 PM
Thank you so much for responding. Yes, bf was married for 17 years. She had affairs which ultimately led to the divorce, but I am sure the underlying problems had to do with his business commitments and his possible lack of "availability" for her. He most likely was not attentive to her needs. He had lots of anger following their divorce and proceeded to bury himself into his work. He had not dated or had any relationships until he met me (not sure if this is a good thing or a bad thing!...). I also see where his behaviors mirror his father's lifestyle, and although his dad did have a fling or tow, my bf never cheated on his wife. At some point following his divorce he became more heavily involved with church and a men's group, and then established a genuine relationship with God.

My bf and his family attend the same church as me our kids attend the same affiliated parochial school. I did not know him more than an acquaintance, but had mutual friends who attested to his character. He is an awesome man who works tirelessly and has been a devoted father and dedicated church and school volunteer.

I hear what you say about love and the requirements to keep it active. We talked at the beginning of our dating about relationships and what it will take to build a healthy relationship. We both agreed about honesty and expressing needs. And I actually had HN, HN when I was attempting to save my marriage. My (now) xh and I worked through the worksheets before realizing the severity of his issues and problems. For us it was impossible for him to meet any needs of mine. Anyway, that's a good suggestion to get the book again and see if he would be willing to work through it. Thanks!
Cards,
He sounds like a good man. Do the work and keep the faith. And don't worry about time running out. You're only 46. My H of nearly 40 years and I didn't get it right till AFTER his A two years ago. He was nearly 60 at the time!
Right Here
Posted By: cardsonly Re: Question for/about men being "in love" - 07/23/08 04:38 PM
Thanks,Seabird...Interesting statistic, and I am certain that much of Bf's fear is rooted in how his marriage ended. I am sure trust is a HUGE factor for him. I think I am sensitive to that and knew from the beginning that it would possibly be a bit of time before he would trust me enough to let down some of his walls. I have been by his side and supported him during some pretty tough business times in the past few months. I have expressed my desires and needs for time for this relationship, and I have also been forgiving and patient when he has had to break plans due to work issues. IMO I have demonstrated that I am trustworthy and that I don't run at the first sign of challenge or problem.

I think you hit the nail on the head when you said that people can CHOOSE to allow their needs to be met and CHOOSE to allow themselves to be loved. I think this is exactly what is happening. I think he is still fearful and is not ALLOWING me to love him.....I actually told him that exact thing the other night. Which is when he basically said that he can't love because he can't make any long term plans at this point.

External factors....yes, work. OTher women, absolutely not. I agree with you that the only way to continue to build on a relationship is by putting into it with time and meeting each others' needs. As far as time together, we do have a standing date for Wednesday, and then try to spend time together on the weekends, especially the weekends when we don't have kids. It's really a tough time in our lives to find time with kids and jobs and houses. I believe he is putting in to the best of his ability, yet I fear that his "block" to further his feelings could be the death of this relationship. How do I get him to acknowledge and work on this?

Posted By: cardsonly Re: Question for/about men being "in love" - 07/23/08 04:49 PM
Tabby, I agree with your response, and I do think his emotional needs are less. I am so torn because I do think I can love this man....yet he is not allowing me. I guess it could be that some people need less, but don't you think every human being inherently wants and needs to be loved? I suspect that early in our relationship when he began to maybe feel he was falling in love, that it became painful on some level.....that he was starting to feel the joy of love, but then became scared because of the fear of maybe having to feel the pain as well....

I don't know....

I'd like to think we can get threw this, but I don't know that I can endure the pain of once again trying to love someone that cannot love me back. That's my dilemma....and maybe only until I leave the relationships can he be able to decide if he should push himself to explore his feelings on this...

Thanks again for writing!
Posted By: Stellakat Re: Question for/about men being "in love" - 07/23/08 04:58 PM
Maybe this man is just not into you....

You have baggage, he has baggage. Maybe your baggage does not mesh with his!

A man is not going to fall in love with a woman he is not well matched with. He knows you are troubled now since you used him as a counselor to help you through.

Maybe it would have been better for you to have used a paid professional counselor and kept your troubles out of this new relationship. But at least the man knows who he is dealing with now....and what lurks inside your personality.

No one is perfect, but your flaws have to meld with his flaws for you both to fall in love. Otherwise he would be crazy to fall in love with you, he knows how difficult marriage is. I think he is seeing and observing you and you are not his cup of tea beyond a friend or a friend with benefits. Have you two talked marriage yet?
Posted By: Stellakat Re: Question for/about men being "in love" - 07/23/08 05:00 PM
I suspect that early in our relationship when he began to maybe feel he was falling in love, that it became painful on some level.....

Maybe he was in pain when you started using him as a free counselor for your problems. Perhaps he was dissapointed and in pain because he did not want a woman who needed a free counselor....and he was hoping for so much more from you!

Did he start pulling away as you were talking to him about how all the other men abused you, were crazy, were insane and mentally ill, were unavailable etc??? Yet, with these insane men, you married them and had children with them anyway!! You did not see thier insanity?

So, you are a newly healing human being and probably not yet ready to jump into a permanent relationship. If you break up with him try and get some help to heal. You are precious and deserve to dump some of your baggage before embarking on a permament relationship.
Posted By: Stellakat Re: Question for/about men being "in love" - 07/23/08 05:08 PM
I was open and honest about my fears and he was a rock for me. He didn't leave the relationship even when I felt clingy and needy. I worked through a LOT during the course of our dating as our friendship grew and solidified.

He may have seen this and wanted to run. But being a kind "father type" caring man he did not run. So, instead, he put you in the FRIEND category in his mine. Instead of the ROMANCE category. At this point, you are not one he wants to fall in love with or stay with forever or marry someday. He has ruled that out due to many things. he may not even know why he has ruled it out. Usually people know after a few months if they are in love, longer if you only see each other once a week.

What do you want from this man?

For him to be in love with you leading to a permanent relationship? Something leading to marriage so you dont have to date anymore>? A father for your children?
Posted By: Stellakat Re: Question for/about men being "in love" - 07/23/08 05:16 PM
He has told me over and over that I am everything he wants

I am sure you are everything he wants! RIGHT NOW!

He wants this friends with benefits lifestyle with you. Anything deeper or more serious he does not want WITH YOU. RIGHT NOW.

It sounds like you want a relationship that is loving and "going somewhere deep and permanent". If you did not want this, you would be fine with this WEEKEND, FRIENDS WITH BENEFITS thing that he is liking right now.

So, admit it, you want a permanent relationship, right? And he is saying he cannot give this to you, right? This is the bottom line as I see it.
Posted By: Stellakat Re: Question for/about men being "in love" - 07/23/08 05:18 PM
Did you tell him all about your troubled relationships? WEll, if you had to do that, it means to him, that you ARE NOT READY to be in relationship with him. If you picked bad men so far, even crazy men, to be married to most of your life, this normal man is wondering about you.

I think this man does not want to be linked permanently to a woman who has not had time alone enough to heal from previous relationships.
Posted By: Tabby1 Re: Question for/about men being "in love" - 07/23/08 05:44 PM
Originally Posted by cardsonly
I guess it could be that some people need less, but don't you think every human being inherently wants and needs to be loved? I suspect that early in our relationship when he began to maybe feel he was falling in love, that it became painful on some level.....that he was starting to feel the joy of love, but then became scared because of the fear of maybe having to feel the pain as well....

Probably most people inherently want to be loved, but everybody expresses and receives love in different ways. How you want to receive love may not be his natural way to express it and vice versa. Perhaps he became scared or perhaps he has come to realize that it is an effort for him to express love in the way you want to receive it. Or, perhaps you are reading too much into this? Have you actually spoken to him about this?

Posted By: cardsonly Re: Question for/about men being "in love" - 07/23/08 06:23 PM
Hmm...

I didn't use him as a free counsellor. I recognized my own issues and dealt with them on my own, but as they affected our relationship I was open and honest about how I was feeling and why. After having been in a loveless marriage for a long time it is a difficult thing to date and try to understand all the feelings associated with a new relationship. We were both new at all of this. He had not been in a relationship or had not even dated for the 7 or 8 years since his divorce. We both had hurts and fears to face.

No, I don't believe he pulled away due as a result of my marriage. We talked all about both of our marriages when first were dating. As far as my past...my xh did not exhibit signs of depression until a few years into our marriage. It was not until we had kids that it became apparent that there were more serious issues and disorders to deal with.

Yes, I admit to being a "work in progress"...we all are. And yes, I do want a permanent and healthy partnership with someone at some point. I readily admit that. Yes, it could be that all he wants is a "friendship", but then why wouldn't he simply admit to that when asked? That's why I am confused. When I have directly asked him what he wants from the relationship, he says he wants to be with me but that he doesn't know what the future will be. Why would he say he wants a committed relationship and to date exclusively if he only wants to be friends?
Posted By: cardsonly Re: Question for/about men being "in love" - 07/23/08 06:37 PM
Yes, Tabby. I do tend to analyze....I don't like gray very well, but I realize most things about life are gray.

I have the book "The 5 Languages of Love" where it discusses the different ways in which we give and receive love. It's an excellent book and I recognize that he gives me "love" by acts of service. I have tried to give him "love" in the way he can receive it.

Thanks for all your thoughts and ideas!
Originally Posted by cardsonly
Yes, it could be that all he wants is a "friendship", but then why wouldn't he simply admit to that when asked? That's why I am confused. When I have directly asked him what he wants from the relationship, he says he wants to be with me but that he doesn't know what the future will be. Why would he say he wants a committed relationship and to date exclusively if he only wants to be friends?

a lonely man is never going to tell you that all he wants is a friends with benefits arrangement. he knows that if he admitted that, you'd end the arrangement immediately. he knows you are husband hunting. the only guys who will admit to wanting friends with benefits are the man whores who don't care whether you go away or not

i say he is lonely because he didn't date anybody for seven years after a divorce caused by his xw's adultry. i'm sure he likes having a woman stroke his ego for the first time in years. it is also quite possible that he does want something long term with you but is not capable of expressing that in a way that meets your need for "connection"

this is pure speculation based on limited information but my guess is that he has trust issues... won't open up because he had been hurt too many times like seacoin touched on earlier in the thread

otoh, there something to be said about the facts that he has a good job, is a church man and is obviously not a "player"

i know your biological stopwatch is clicking but maybe if you spent more time together he would learn to trust you enough to let his guard down and express the feelings he is holding in?
Posted By: cardsonly Re: Question for/about men being "in love" - 07/29/08 04:45 PM
Thanks for the ideas Charlie..

Actually I'm not "husband hunting". I have 3 teenagers and it will be 4 years before all my kids are off to college. I have zero intentions of getting married and blending families with my kids before that time. Yes, I would like a stable, loving, healthy, monogomous relationship. Not bragging, but I am told I am beautiful, have a great figure, and am usually guessed at being 5-10 years younger. The point is, I am not young but I can and do attract dates.

The points you made were very insightful, and I agree that he has trust issues & is/was somewhat lonely, although he barely has time for a "relationship". He spent the last few years immersing himself into his work. I respect him in so many ways, and I think we have the basis of a great relationship, I just get fearful of my own vulnerabilities. I am sometimes concerned that after that long without dating that he should date many women to see what works for him (we have talked about this and he is not interested in dating others).

Yes, I think time together is imperative in which to build a relationship but he is dictating that with his work. I am having trouble discerning if he is "using" work as a way to avoid intimacy and closeness.

How does a person get beyond trust issues? Do you think that naturally over time and within a honest relationship the trust problems simply dissipate? Or, is additional work and counselling necessary in order to get beyond it? I am sure that every person is different and there are no cookie-cutter answers, but I am working on this relationship and simply need some positive signs.

Thanks!

Originally Posted by cardsonly
I am sometimes concerned that after that long without dating that he should date many women to see what works for him (we have talked about this and he is not interested in dating others).

Yes, I think time together is imperative in which to build a relationship but he is dictating that with his work. I am having trouble discerning if he is "using" work as a way to avoid intimacy and closeness.

How does a person get beyond trust issues? Do you think that naturally over time and within a honest relationship the trust problems simply dissipate? Or, is additional work and counselling necessary in order to get beyond it? I am sure that every person is different and there are no cookie-cutter answers, but I am working on this relationship and simply need some positive signs.

like i said earlier, i'm just making some guesses here, so take this all with a grain of salt but don't you think that if he could date many women he would? lonely guys are lonely because they don't have the ability to communicate

normal people get ego boosts from the opposite sex or friends or whatever... a lonely guy doesn't have those options but he can do well at work and boost his ego that way

this guy probably loves you more than he is capable of expressing

problem is, i don't know how to fix that. i am the same kind of guy. i'd imagine counseling to weed out some FOO issues may help but he'd have to be willing to work on it

since you aren't "husband hunting" you have time to work with him but please don't go on one of those female crusades to change your man... if he wants to change than you have the makings of a good relationship. if he doesn't and you don't want a LTR with a guy who can't communicate then...

EDIT: In reference to the trust issues, I don't think it's possible to even guess because you don't know what has caused him to be unable to communicate. If a counselor can figure what that issue is, you can work to tear down his wall as Pink Floyd likes to put it.
cardsonly, I am not sure I understand the basic issue, so maybe you could clarify a couple of things for me. You say that you suspect he only wants a "friend with benefits," which I agree with. That seems pretty obvious to me. He has made it clear he wants no more than that. But what I don't understand is that you admit you don't want a commitment either, so what is the issue? He is not committed, you are not committed. He has no desire for intimacy, only sex. If someone is in a relationship for the sex, that can often preclude their desire to be truly intimate, IMO.

You are both, admittedly, freeloaders [not a negative connotation when defining a dating situation, most daters ARE by definition] and not buyers, so it shouldn't be expected that you will do anything to maintain a house you don't own.

[sidebar: Dr Harley claims that he was a freeloader when he was dating Joyce. She DUMPED HIM. Suddenly, he became a BUYER when he realized the house was not for RENT, only for SALE. She raised the bar and said, no freeloaders need appply]

Now, if you did want a committment and a husband, I would point out that this man is not a buyer,[NOW] so if that was your goal, you would want to move on. He is a freeloader or renter, at best. And that is OK as long your house is for RENT and not for SALE. If you are FOR SALE and are only interested in buyers, then he is not your guy. [AS HE IS NOW, that is]

Have you told this man about your own infidelity in your past? Is he fully aware of your past?
Posted By: cardsonly Re: Question for/about men being "in love" - 07/30/08 07:50 PM
Thanks,Charlie..

IF there's anything I've learned, it's that one person cannot change another person! And therein lies the problem....I believe I may be approaching the point where I need to make a decision about this relationship. It is his choice to try and meet needs that I've expressed. IF he has no interest or any sincere attempts to do so, then I guess that is my answer about how he feels about me.

This is what I TRULY believe is going on....AFter 17 yrs of marriage, man is divorced after xw has affairs. HE is hurt and angry, plus xw steals money from the businesses they built together. He is financially and emotionally devastated. He decides to redirect his anger and finds a Higher Power in which to trust. He immerses himself into the businesses and his children. For 7 or 8 years all he does is work, kids, and sometimes golf....no women. He meets me and likes me. Finds himself dealing with all kinds of feelings and emotions that have been buried for years. HE is afraid to love and trust. We date and become close. Within the context of this relationship we help each other from our wounded pasts, all the while building a worthwhile friendship/relationship based on loyalty and honesty.

But...work gets in the way of progressing the relationship. OFten there is no time for us....which of course translates to me that I am not important enough for him to carve time out. He is in the restaurant business and hours are long. He still is recovering financially and I know he MUST work. But how do I discern when "work" is an excuse? Work was his only "friend" following his divorce. Work would not lie or steal or cheat on him. Work met his needs. It must be scary to think of trusting something else now, when work met his needs for so long....

He will say that he is committed to me, not interested in anyone else, and wants to be with me. But yet......I have no indication that "work" is improving or that he is willing to make any type of changes in order to not lose the relationship...other than to continue to profess how important I am to him, but that he can't do anything about his work commitments.

This cannot be a rare scenario, can it? But what now? Do I continue investing in the relationship, "proving" my trustworthiness, or do I tell him that I can't sit around waiting for him to have time for me? I waited and hoped for too long in my marriage, and it only served to cause me great pain....



don't bypass the advice mel gave

it does appear that he likes the status quo. if you don't, you have got to shake it up and be honest

i'd make it clear to him that you are not happy with the friends with benefits thing and tell him in no uncertain terms that unless he makes more time for the relationship, things can't proceed

i forget, have yall done those questionairs here?
Posted By: booka Re: Question for/about men being "in love" - 08/01/08 09:34 PM
Personally I feel you over-analyzing the whole thing and he might feel some pressure both from your analysis and critique of the relationship and your expectations for what you want it to be at this point. I feel that you have unmatched expectations.

If you like and trusty this guy, why not lighten up for a bit and see what happens. Is it possibility in any fashion that you're being detected or interpreting as being just a bit needy and that's causing him to back off a bit?

I suggest that you reduce your expectations slightly and enjoy what you have. If he doesn't respond and continues to work more and more, then you can conclude that his interest has waned from any number of issues, not just commitment.

I do wish you good luck.
I would only say look at the actions of the person.

I could care less if my GF never said she loved me. It is all in how she treats me. Does she act like she loves me? Does she make compromises and sacrifice? Do I do the same?

Only look at the actions in the relationship. Classify them accordingly and decipher his love based on that.

One thing I would broach is if he is open to marriage in the future, assuming this is your desire. There is no sense proceeding if he has no interest in marriage and you require it long term.
"have been dating this man for about 14 months. I have been divorced about 2 years from an "unavailable" man"

"After divorcing I dated a man for about 6 months who I later beleived to have a narcissistic personality disorder."

"I was married 20 yrs to the mentally ill man and read many books to learn about why I stayed in the marriage that long. I learned much about myself and searched for answers as to why I chose "unavailable" men. AFter the 6 month relationship, I began dating my current BF."

Since you realize you seem to get involved with men who share this same trait, and since you haven't given yourself much time between relationships, why not spend some time NOT in a relationship?

You were married 20 years, and in the 2 years since your divorce you've been in two relationships, one for 6 months, and the current one for 14 months? That only leaves 4 months spending time alone recovering and re-evaluating after the end of a 20 year marriage plus another relationship. How soon after the divorce did you start dating? I've read that for every 5 years of marriage, it typically takes 1 year for recovery before you're ready to invest in another relationship. The longer you've been in a marriage or relationship, the more restraint is called for to avoid getting into an unsound 'rebound' relationship.

"AFter 17 yrs of marriage, man is divorced after xw has affairs. HE is hurt and angry, plus xw steals money from the businesses they built together. He is financially and emotionally devastated. He decides to redirect his anger and finds a Higher Power in which to trust. He immerses himself into the businesses and his children. For 7 or 8 years all he does is work, kids, and sometimes golf....no women. He meets me and likes me. Finds himself dealing with all kinds of feelings and emotions that have been buried for years. HE is afraid to love and trust. We date and become close. Within the context of this relationship we help each other from our wounded pasts, all the while building a worthwhile friendship/relationship based on loyalty and honesty."

I can probably relate much easier to his POV (even though I'm a woman) in this situation. He has spent at least 1 year per every 5 years he was married alone and not dating. He is probably ready for committment again but may worry if YOU are since you were so recently divorced and have only spent a few months since your divorce NOT in a relationship. Maybe he's worried that he is just a rebound for you, from both your marriage and the man you dated just before him?
"I have 3 teenagers and it will be 4 years before all my kids are off to college."

How are your children doing in the aftermath of the divorce and their family breaking up? How did they react to your dating so soon after divorcing their father?

And how is your XH doing? How has your divorcing him affected him?
"I didn't use him as a free counsellor. I recognized my own issues and dealt with them on my own"

When?

In the 4 months since divorcing your XH that you were between relationships?

How long did you know the man you dated for 6 months before you started dating him? When did you meet him?

How long have you known the man you are dating now?

cardsonly, did you see my question? Did you tell this bf about your affair in your marriage? Did your marriage end because of your affair?
After reading some of the posts in her previous threads here, it looks like her marriage ended because she couldn't get over her infatuation with the married OM she had an internet affair with.

She rarely even mentioned her BH in her first thread here, compared to her going on and on about her withdrawal feelings for the OM and how she was holding onto mementos from their affair behind her BH's back.

The relatively few references to her BH sounded very different than her description of him now, the sort of negative re-writing of history she posted when she posted about divorcing him...

Her first thread

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2103098&fpart=1

said things like this about her BH:

"My H is trying his hardest to help and understand, too. I think he is trying to downplay it in his mind, though. I'm glad for that if it causes him less pain, but it makes me need more outlets (like this). We have gone through the "emotional needs" survey and he is trying hard to work on himself."

"In my last phone call with my OM I told him I needed to talk to him because there is no one else to talk to. That must be how you're feeling, too, right now. I have the advantage that my H knows about the EA & has been willing to talk about it. He doesn't know the depth of it, but at least he has given me space when I've been really down."

"As I told my H & OM, I didn't even realize my needs weren't being met until OM was meeting them! I had pushed them aside for such a long time while raising kids, working, and running the household!"

"He's not as handsome as my H, and has more character flaws than I want to deal with. BUT, that didn't matter. You see, I FELT myself getting caught up in it but I couldn't stop it. I was addicted! It was a drug to me, a chemical reaction in my body when he contacted me and "fed" me the attention, etc. It was as if he controlled me, he signed on at will when I was at home or work. True, I had to be signed on to IM in order to receive his IM's, and I WILLINGLY was."

"I would say my H is very proud of himself as a father, but has felt inadequate as a H at times. Haven't we all felt that? I have felt that about myself. We've spent our energies raising fine children for the last 14 years! He is working hard on himself right now, but I sense he's not sure which things to work on first. We have a couple good books, and I will look for the one you recommended. We have done the EN worksheets, but now we need to act on them. We have taken small steps"

Apparently her BH didn't become too crazy to live with until she decided to divorce him...

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubb...in=135742&Number=1706439#Post1706439

hmmm... so when DID she MEET that guy she was dating for 6 months 'after' her divorce?



So to bring us up to date:

You divorced your husband after your online affair with a married man, supposedly because you realized (um AFTER your husband had forgiven you and WAS putting in efforts for recovery) that your husband was crazy and not doing enough to meet your needs.

This is your description of the sort of efforts your BH was putting in to try to meet your EN's and to work on recovery (an example of what you deemed 'not enough':

"I apologized to my H again today for the pain & hurt I caused him. He is so forgiving, but almost too forgiving. He doesn't seem to want to go over it again. He keeps telling me to not worry about it, as he feels he has put me through a lot, too (not A's, other stresses & hardships). I am thankful that he is still trusting me."

"Sorry everyone, didn't mean to compare bad M's! Obviously something isn't right if there are A's, but I couldn't help but wonder if those people that are falling back in love, were actually "in love" not long before the A's. My H & I have been "drifting" through marriage since having kids. Too much revolving around them, "us" getting lost and disconnected from each other. It's been years since we've been really happy together. No horrible fighting or anything, just not working to make each other happy. OWL, like you said, I can see that since this has happened the talks that we've had have helped us to start that re-connecting. Just talking about our feelings as much as we've done lately is about 1000% improvement to what it was!"

"My H drew me a bath last night (just for me alone) with candles and music. I asked him to stay and talk with me. We talked about a lot of things-his stresses, too. Maybe that's why I'm feeling so overwhelmed. I so appreciate his forgiveness and his efforts. But now I see all the underlying issues that we have never addressed. I guess one step at a time."


Then you ended a 6 month relationship with another man (was he married too) because he supposedly had the same mental health issues your husband had?

Then you started another relationship with a man who owns restaurants, and are complaining that he doesn't spend enough time meeting your needs?

I certainly understand the importance of having your most important EN's met, but have you done an honest evaluation of your EN's to determine whether or not they ARE meetable by any one meremortal male? And you did realize when you started dating a man who owns more than one restaurant that the amount of time he could spend with you would be limited, right?
wow yall are good (mel and meremortal)

i sure hope the OP's current BF doesn't get hurt again... too bad we can't warn him somehow
Posted By: cardsonly Re: Question for/about men being "in love" - 08/04/08 03:24 PM
Thanks for the "help"...

Obviously I came to MB in the first place in order to SAVE my marriage. I had no clue what had happened to me at that time...how or WHY I would become infatuated with chatting with a man 2000 miles away that I was never to meet. I never met him or talked to him again. That small little connection to the outside "emotional" world is what woke me up to what was really happening. It was an emotional connection that I had no idea I was starving for. I was clueless as to how I got to the state I was in.

What transpired after I stopped posting here, was months of counselling for both my xh and myself...together and individually. My xh was diagnosed as bi-p and anxiety disorders. It came out in counselling that he had been sexually abused as a pre-teen. If you can add all of that together or have any experience in these matters, you will know that a person dealing with all of that is totally "unavailable" for a marriage or much of anything or anyone else. He was able to function through life and his job if I raised the kids, took care of the finances, worked, and basically run everything. And, no, I wasn't the cause for his mental health issues. He has a family history of a variety of mental health disorders. It also came out that he was depressed in high school before I had ever even met him, and began taking anti-d's 2 years into our marriage.

So, my life and marriage gradually fell appart while I was not even realizing it. I knew things didn't seem right for several years, but when you're living and just trying to survive working and raising 3 small kids, sometimes you really don't know HOW wrong it all is. Plus, I made my bed and I would lie in it. I would observe other families and wonder if they lived like us. Life with my xh was a rollercoaster.....I can't even begin to describe it...... And, no, not re-writing history. I was numb to life and the reality I was living. I was becoming numb to my kids, and increasingly unhealthy as my emotional state suffered under all of it. I was finding no joy in life at all. I wasn't expecting it for myself, but I finally realized that my ability to mother to my kids was being compromised. I had kept it all together, and kept our life going.

I described all of this in my posts, and talked about the years of my trying to get us help, trying to seek more professional help for my xh.....and always being told to stay out of it. I did everything I could for my marriage and my xh, yet no one on this site could seem to see the severity of the issues.....but I understand, the focus here was on saving marriage not diagnosing mental health problems. The issues in my marriage were beyond anyone's help here, and not once did anyone suggest to me that he needed REAL help. There were/are serious mental health issues with my xh, and I was emotionally, mentally, and physically abandoned by him (my xh withheld SF for the last years of our marriage).

And as I said, following my posts here, I looked for more answers with couples and individual counselling. Issues of co-dependency and enabling played into it. My xh was ultimately the one who wanted to leave the marriage. He told me he never loved me, and he only wanted to stay married because I "took care" of everything (his words). He suggested separating but told me he didn't know when he'd have time to work on the marriage. He was the one that decided on divorce. Irrespective of our family and marriage needs, he decided to enroll in a schooling program requiring lots of financial resources and time......instead of trying to help himself and us.

My kids are thriving and happy, now that we are no longer co-dependents to his bi-p moods on a daily basis. Unless you have lived it, you have no idea......He loves them and I wish him the best and hope he can find happiness someday. But my chit-chatting with someone for 3 months had next to nothing to do with our marriage. And actually, that little event woke me up to the severity of the problems. Had we continued on in the dysfunctional relationship we were in, the cycle would have continued and my kids would have suffered greatly. My xh brought sexual abuse and a history of mental disorders into our marriage unbeknownst to me. This marriage was not saveable, and I had 3 phd's tell me they are amazed I kept it together for as long as I did.

I am trying to move on with my life and pick up the pieces. I have continued counselling and have read everything under the sun about relationships and mental health, and finally am beginning to feel like a person. And to whoever asked, the man I am currently dating is a man whose children attend the same parochial school as mine. We attend church together and we became friends when he coached my daughters' soccer team.

Yes, I agree that taking time for myself to heal is important. The relationship I am in has progressed at a snail's pace due to our work and family constraints. Usually we see each other only once a week, and never when we each have our respective kids.

I appreciate the genuine suggestions and only very recently began reading here again. But now I realize yet again just how judgmental and short-sighted so many people can be.



"Obviously I came to MB in the first place in order to SAVE my marriage."

Actually, that is not at all the impression I got from reading your original thread. In your posts you went on and on about your feelings for the OM, you admitted you were secretly holding onto momentos from the affair, said how upset you were that the OM had chosen his wife over you. You barely mentioned your BH compared to how much you talked about the OM, and the online affair with him, how much you wanted to call or e-mail him.

What you did say about your husband was that he WAS forgiving and working on recovery BUT that you expected him to listen to more details of the affair, and you talking about your feelings for the OM, than he was comfortable with. The sort of (um adultery-enabling) 'support' and 'understanding' that you got from some of the posters was actually keeping you STUCK in obsession over the OM. You weren't kicking the addiction to the OM because you were staying so focused on the OM and how good he made you feel. The worst stage of withdrawal was being needlessly prolonged, preventing recovery. Your BH was 'neglecting' to help you to continue to obsess over the OM and he didn't want to listen to you describe how much you still craved the OM...


"I had no clue what had happened to me at that time...how or WHY I would become infatuated with chatting with a man 2000 miles away that I was never to meet. I never met him or talked to him again. That small little connection to the outside "emotional" world is what woke me up to what was really happening. It was an emotional connection that I had no idea I was starving for. I was clueless as to how I got to the state I was in."

You did't sound clueless to me when you posted this:

"my H & I are most definitely NOT spending enough time together, but we do know that this is a problem. We are spending most of our time running kids to & from school, soccer, and other activities. We both recognize that we have failed in the area of prioritizing our M. Way back when I was in the Twins Club we were told to make sure you go on dates with your H. We didn't, as we had no one capable enough to watch our 3 babies. I will take both of your advice on this and make sure that we START by doing things together on a regular basis. We are almost to the point of leaving the kids home alone for small blocks of time - and we are so looking forward to that!"

or this:

"My focus HAS been my H and M and how to repair and restore it. We are taking it slowly. I am still putting a "face" on the "why's" of what I did. I am looking at the bigger picture of what my life was, and how my EA resulted from not just my H not meeting my EN's, but how I allowed myself to get lost in life and all its demands. I recognize that it is my responsibility to see when giving and giving and giving is detrimental to myself. I, no one else, am ultimately responsible for the care of myself. I took a mental "vacation" from my normal life during the span of the EA. Not just from my H, but from my kids, friends, church, everything. I pulled myself out of the ratrace and lived in a fantasy, somehow still managing to get through the day to day life. This experience has given me pause to re-evaluate not only my M, but also my whole life. It's quite unsettling, but I think ultimately it could be beneficial for me and my whole family."







"What transpired after I stopped posting here, was months of counselling for both my xh and myself...together and individually. My xh was diagnosed as bi-p and anxiety disorders. It came out in counselling that he had been sexually abused as a pre-teen. If you can add all of that together or have any experience in these matters, you will know that a person dealing with all of that is totally "unavailable" for a marriage or much of anything or anyone else. He was able to function through life and his job if I raised the kids, took care of the finances, worked, and basically run everything. And, no, I wasn't the cause for his mental health issues. He has a family history of a variety of mental health disorders. It also came out that he was depressed in high school before I had ever even met him, and began taking anti-d's 2 years into our marriage."

Sounds like a great excuse to have an affair with a married man and destroy a marriage and family, doesn't it?

And YES I do have experience in these matters - I was married to a man with the same sort of problems for 25 years. (But in my case he was the one who destroyed our marriage and family because of his adultery.)

I have a daughter who (some of the) counselors say is bi-polar, and there is no doubt that she has anxiety issues. She had to take anti-D's for a while too and was even hospitalized in the adult psychiatric ward a couple of times for a few months. I pray that whomever marries her will not cheat on her and dump her because of her problems but will love her enough to stand by her as she heals. (BTW, her problems started because of her WF's adultery and divorce.)

Posted By: cardsonly Re: Question for/about men being "in love" - 08/04/08 04:31 PM
WHy else would I come to "Marriage Builders" if I didn't want to save my marriage? I was emotionally attached to someone I never met. I was scared and confused. I don't disagree with you regarding the withdrawl, etc. I was in such emotional pain and came to realize that the site and posting was counter-productive, which is why I had to move on to some professional help. My xh did have an immediate reaction to want to address the problems, but it was short-lived and he was truly unable to work on our relationship until he faced his own problems and demons on an individual. He has still not sought help for the childhood abuse. And, BTW, he filed for and was deemed disabled by the SSA after one application. I am not "making up" the severity of his problems.

What I did was not right, and I am not justifying it any way. My plea at that time was to find answers as to how and why I succumbed to such a thing. Now I know. This site was the first step in unveiling the iceberg.

I totally, TOTALLY agree with the principals this site endorses....meeting each others' needs is paramount to a successful relationship. If one person is "unavailable" for whatever reason, needs will not be met. And a person can slip into an emotional "coma" and become numb, believing they are fine without having needs met. But it will eventually surface and cause damage. For me, I knew I wasn't happy or satisfied in my marriage, but did not realize how damaging it was to really not have any needs met. Perhaps that is why I am analyzing about my current dating situation...I am learning that it is MY responsibility to have my needs met. Whether it is in the context of a marriage or a relationship, or simply on my own.

My story is probably much more about co-dependency than anything else and may have little value on this site, except as a warning to not ignore and stuff their needs.
"So, my life and marriage gradually fell appart while I was not even realizing it. I knew things didn't seem right for several years, but when you're living and just trying to survive working and raising 3 small kids, sometimes you really don't know HOW wrong it all is. Plus, I made my bed and I would lie in it. I would observe other families and wonder if they lived like us. Life with my xh was a rollercoaster.....I can't even begin to describe it...... And, no, not re-writing history. I was numb to life and the reality I was living. I was becoming numb to my kids, and increasingly unhealthy as my emotional state suffered under all of it. I was finding no joy in life at all. I wasn't expecting it for myself, but I finally realized that my ability to mother to my kids was being compromised. I had kept it all together, and kept our life going."

Not rewriting history?
Than why does it sound so different from what you wrote before?

"As far as getting back to my M, it will be a lot of work for us. My H & I have been disconnected for a long time. We hadn't been at odds with each other, we had just drifted apart with the whole raising the kids & life thing. We will have to find our way back to each other. The attention, the compliments, the being desired by another man is what totally reeled me in."

"Today, my H & I did errands together which was nice. My kids, (11, 11, & 13) are finally able to stay at home alone for awhile. We need to take advantage of that to do things together.
Winbin, like you,my OM & me KNEW we would NEVER leave our families to be together. We acknowledged that to each other on several occasions."

"Mary, I have to admit that I liked the flirting involved with my EA. Being desired by someone else is a wonderful feeling. He constantly told me he was "turned on" just by talking to me. who wouldn't melt? I would have to say my H & my relationship was a similar companionship-type relationship like yours. We were way past "desiring" each other. So that is another area we will have to work on. I have discovered so much about my needs in the last few weeks. I think so many of my needs were not being met, but I didn't realize it. Then when someone did meet them, then STOPPED meeting them - WOW withdrawal in a big way!"

"From what I've read on this site & from the posts of these experienced helpers, it sounds like the road to recovery starts with being honest with your H. I don't know if that's possible for you or not. I have to say that I know what I've done is wrong, but I have not felt tremendous guilt (yet). Maybe because I am too wrapped up in withdrawal and concentrating on trying to have NC. Maybe because my H does know about the EA. He doesn't know that I continued contact after he discovered. He doesn't know exactly when it started, and he certainly doesn't know the depth of my feelings for OM. He has been wonderfully supportive, and has taken some responsibility for the bad shape of our M."

"I would say my H is very proud of himself as a father, but has felt inadequate as a H at times. Haven't we all felt that? I have felt that about myself. We've spent our energies raising fine children for the last 14 years! He is working hard on himself right now, but I sense he's not sure which things to work on first. We have a couple good books, and I will look for the one you recommended. We have done the EN worksheets, but now we need to act on them. We have taken small steps."

"It gives me hope to hear that others doubted their love but later had the feelings coming back. I do love my H & I have gained some respect for him by the way he has been handling this whole situation. He has tried hard to be supportive of me and has tried to hear about my feelings. I guess that's a beginning and I should realize the importance of that. So much time has passed when we were disconnected, maybe that's why it's hard for me to imagine us closing the gap. I am trying though."

"my H & I are most definitely NOT spending enough time together, but we do know that this is a problem. We are spending most of our time running kids to & from school, soccer, and other activities. We both recognize that we have failed in the area of prioritizing our M. Way back when I was in the Twins Club we were told to make sure you go on dates with your H. We didn't, as we had no one capable enough to watch our 3 babies. I will take both of your advice on this and make sure that we START by doing things together on a regular basis. We are almost to the point of leaving the kids home alone for small blocks of time - and we are so looking forward to that!"

All that didn't exaclty sound as if you ALONE were shouldering all the parenting responsibilities minus your BH doing his share.

"WE are spending most of OUR time running kids to & from school, soccer, and other activities."

And it certainly didn't sound as if the "ability to mother [your] kids was being compromised"; it was more like the relationship between you and your husband was being compromised by so much focus on parenting instead.


Posted By: cardsonly Re: Question for/about men being "in love" - 08/04/08 05:13 PM
Mere...

I am sorry for your pain. Truly. But my xh was NOT interested in saving our marriage. That's the bottom line. I tried for the previous 10-12 YEARS to get him to doctors to address the problems, but he denied all the problems, always telling me things would get better if he had the "right" job. I did not even KNOW about the sexual abuse until we were in a joint counselling session and the dr was asking some basic family history questions.

If both parties don't want to fix it, it won't be fixed. For 2 years I told him that we need to address our marriage and he never had time "right now". He told me to tell my feelings to someone else.

I did NOT want my children to view our marriage as being what it is supposed to be. Truly, my daughters would never want to be married based on what they observed. We were ALL suffering in the dysfunction, and no amount of me "helping" someone to heal and recover would change that if he was not WILLING to be a part of the solution. "Standing by" someone and allowing the chaos to continue is not "helping" them in any way.

Meremortal, most truly bi-polar people are UNABLE to have healthy interpersonal relationships...and I have read that over 90% of marriages with a bi-polar partner fail. Of course you will say that I used that statistic to justify my behavior. On the contrary....my xh continually would attempt to diagnose his disorders over the years and it wasn't until AFTER we had divorced that he obtained a professional psychiatric diagnosis. None of this matters, and I am not interested in debating what ultimately transpired with our marriage, but I know that our marriage was unsalvageable and by dissolving it I was saved, my kids have a better chance at having healthy relationships, and my xh finally had the impetus to at least acknowledge he has some issues.

Everyone on this site is, or has experienced pain, but the end result is that we all must find a way to heal and move forward. None of us has lived each others' pain, and meremortal, just as you point out my being "supported" in my EA by posting about it....don't you think that BH's and BW's keep "stuck" in their recovery by continually being angry and projecting on to everyone else? By posting and writing for years on end? By criticizing and judging everyone else? Just a thought.

Whether your marriage remains intact or not, every person must face themselves and recognize their role in the relationship. If I had continued to "stand by" a person that had no desire to repair our marriage or find solutions to his problems, my entire family of 5 would still be suffering. Sometimes it's necessary to let go.













I have a question, something that just doesn't add up about your explanations and choices IMHO:

Why do you think it's not possible for your BH to get the help he needs while still being married to you, that HIS problems and issues can only be addressed effectively if you're divorced...

but you apparently believe your issues and those with your current boyfriend don't warrant you spending some time ALONE, not in a relationship with a man? Since your divorce you've only spent 4 months that you were not involved with another man?
How is that giving yourself enough time to work through your own issues, and to recover from the break up of a 20 year long marriage, before starting another relationship?!?

Also, THE common denominator in all your postings seems to be that since you've had a taste of the chemical high from adultery, your expectations are that you will not even temporarily settle for less than that high from a man/relationship. The cure to your addiction is not to demand the next fix ASAP or else. You will need to go through withdrawals and re-establish more realistic expectations. An addict's craving is NOT the same as a valid EN. Has it never occurred to you that NO mere mortal male can fill your EN's if what you expect is the illicit excitement and high of adultery?
No long-term relationship can really compete with that in the same way sobriety can't compete with the addict's love affair with a crack pipe.

If you don't give up your unealistic expectations then you may be on the way to becoming a serial adulterer, somebody who can't feel 'satisifed' unless you are constantly surfing the thrill of 'new love'.

Until you work this out with yourself perhaps it would be best for you to not get involved with anyone.

THE major complaint you had about your BH when you first came here is that he didn't want to listen to you go on and on about how good the OM made you FEEEEEEEEL, about how much the affair meant to you, about how addicted you were to the OM. That was NOT a valid complaint about your BH failing to meet an EN he was responsible for! It is NOT the responsibility of those who love an addict to provide them with just as strong and instant of a high as the addiction did - or else they supposedly are failing the addict in some way! YOU have to go through the withdrawals form YOUR addiction, nobody can do that for you. It was not POSSIBLE for your BH to do such a good job at meeting your EN's that your craving for the OM would have simply vanished (while you secretly kept your affair souvenirs, continued to hang out online where the OM could find you, and chatted with 'supporters' who 'understood' your cravings)!!!

You would have gotten over the OM a lot quicker and easier if you had told your BH the whole truth (NO NOT about how strong your feeeeeelings were for the OM) the truth about how you were holding onto suvenirs from the affair, how you kept copies of the e-mails you told BH you had deleted, how you still hoped OM would show up at the gaming site you still went to, how you were plotting to call OM when his wife was at work, how you had some contact with the OM after you todl your husband it was over.

There's a reason AA meetings don't involve a lot of talk about the joys of drinking... Your withdrawal was stalled by your obsessing over the OM, your continued dishonesty with your BH, your cruel desire to make your BH listen to you gush about how the OM made you feel, and your failure to destroy all links to the OM. My mother used to have a drinking problem, she didn't get over it by describing to us how great it felt to be drunk.

Hey, I'm not saying your BH is perfect or that I doubt your BH may have some serious issues. But that in no way excuses adultery.

BTW, you claim your BH divorced you.
Was it because he found out about your continued dishonesty?
Or did he become discouraged because your expectations of him were impossible?
Or did you make him listen to you talk about the OM until he finally had enough?



"If both parties don't want to fix it, it won't be fixed. For 2 years I told him that we need to address our marriage and he never had time "right now". He told me to tell my feelings to someone else."

It was inappropriate and harmful to your BH and your marriage to expect him to want to listen to your feelings about the OM.


Posted By: cardsonly Re: Question for/about men being "in love" - 08/04/08 05:23 PM
Mere..

I have obviously struck a nerve with you, but am not interested in debating my life with you and am done responding to your posts. I'm not perfect, made lots of mistakes, but I have owned them and am moving forward in my life. Perhaps you should focus on your own healing and recovery.
I don't understand, you go to great detail justifying why you cheated on and divorced your BH, but you also claim your BH divorced you, not the other way around?

When you came back and posted that you were getting a divorce you didn't make it sound as if you still wanted to stay married and work things out, but your BH was going to divorce you anyway.

You posted a list of complaints about his problems and how he supposedly didn't contribute anything to the marriage and family (in direct contrast to what you'd previously posted about what an involved father he was, how he did things like run a bubble bath for you, and how BOTH of you had let the marriage relationship take second place to raising a family).
"Mere..

I have obviously struck a nerve with you, but am not interested in debating my life with you and am done responding to your posts. I'm not perfect, made lots of mistakes, but I have owned them and am moving forward in my life. Perhaps you should focus on your own healing and recovery."

Hey no problem - I'm just confused by the things you post, the inconsistencies.

"My H & I talked again last night and he listened to me honestly talk about how I am feeling at this point. We talked about how important it is we start working on our M. He still seems to think he has to deal with himself first, but I tried to explain that there are some things we need to work on together NOW! We talked about ENā€™s but are putting them on the back burner for now. We started the 20 Simple Rules like you suggested"

I think you somehow got the false impression that your BH owed it to you to listen to you talk about your feelings for the OM. Your frequent complaints about your BH not wanting to do that indicated that you felt it was an EN your BH was neglecting.

Also, you later accused your BH of not wanting to deal with his own issues and that was your justification for thinking about divorcing him. But previously you had complained about him wanting to deal with his own problems first, that being a higher priority to him, something he believed would be better for the marriage than listening to you talk about how good the OM made you feel.

So in all fairness you'd have to admit that your complaint about your husband wanting to work on his own problems first (and that was preventing recovery) conflicts with your later complaint that he supposedly refused to work on his own problems first (and that is why a divorce was necessary).

Also, you'd said you were vulnerable to adultery because BOTH you and your husband had focused so much on the children and put the relationship with each other second and that the children were doing quite well; but then you later claimed that you shouldered all the parenting responsibilities alone, your BH was no more like a 4th child, and you and the children were suffering so much because of this strain that divorce was justified.

The only consistency is your false assumption that your BH owed it to you to listen to you gush about your feelings for OM.

Cardsonly:

I know how frustrating it is to get a 2x4 from a total stranger but you have to remember that: A) the total strangers giving you free advice are basing everything from your own words and how they are interpreted; and B) you asked for our advice by starting this thread

7/19/2006: ā€œYou have been where? Done what? Have you been married for 20 years to a chronically depressed person or a person with mental illnesses? Do you know ANYTHING about co-dependency? Were you abused in your marriage? Unless you have walked in THESE shoes, you cannot speak to the situation. Minimizing the pain and suffering of these marriages is both insensitive AND destructive.ā€

I donā€™t know what the technical definition of co-dependency is but staying with an abusive man for 20 years may fall into that category as would, I think, having two long term relationships within the first two years of the divorceā€¦ plus a ā€œheatedā€ affair sprinkled in for taste.

Question for/about all men being ā€œin loveā€

Maybe you are asking the wrong question? Maybe instead of asking why your current boyfriend wonā€™t take the next step you should be asking yourself, ā€˜Am I ready if he did.ā€™
You now I could be reading more into it... that is a possibility.
I will repost some for your first thread here and see what impression other posters get:

"My H & I talked again last night and he listened to me honestly talk about how I am feeling at this point. We talked about how important it is we start working on our M. He still seems to think he has to deal with himself first, but I tried to explain that there are some things we need to work on together NOW! We talked about ENā€™s but are putting them on the back burner for now. We started the 20 Simple Rules like you suggested

hate to admit, though, that part of my problem is I'm still feeling unsure of my feelings for my H. I want to BELIEVE that we can both have loving feelings towards each other, but I just don't know.

It gives me hope to hear that others doubted their love but later had the feelings coming back. I do love my H & I have gained some respect for him by the way he has been handling this whole situation. He has tried hard to be supportive of me and has tried to hear about my feelings. I guess that's a beginning and I should realize the importance of that. So much time has passed when we were disconnected, maybe that's why it's hard for me to imagine us closing the gap. I am trying though.

For both of us, our OM made the decision to protect their W as much as they could. Speaking only for myself, I'm sure I felt some rejection that W was "chosen" over me (even though I had no intention of leaving H for OM). That's the irony-wanting OM to want me more than anything, but having no intention of leaving my world for his.

my H & I are most definitely NOT spending enough time together, but we do know that this is a problem. We are spending most of our time running kids to & from school, soccer, and other activities. We both recognize that we have failed in the area of prioritizing our M. Way back when I was in the Twins Club we were told to make sure you go on dates with your H. We didn't, as we had no one capable enough to watch our 3 babies. I will take both of your advice on this and make sure that we START by doing things together on a regular basis. We are almost to the point of leaving the kids home alone for small blocks of time - and we are so looking forward to that!

I sometimes feel guilty for all the time and energy my EA has sucked out of me, my H, and even all of you who give to help us. Even though we focus on these marital crises here, we all have other problems and issues in our lives. I hope you're not feeling bad about taking anti-d, this is a fact of life with my H and his family history.

My focus HAS been my H and M and how to repair and restore it. We are taking it slowly. I am still putting a "face" on the "why's" of what I did. I am looking at the bigger picture of what my life was, and how my EA resulted from not just my H not meeting my EN's, but how I allowed myself to get lost in life and all its demands. I recognize that it is my responsibility to see when giving and giving and giving is detrimental to myself. I, no one else, am ultimately responsible for the care of myself. I took a mental "vacation" from my normal life during the span of the EA. Not just from my H, but from my kids, friends, church, everything. I pulled myself out of the ratrace and lived in a fantasy, somehow still managing to get through the day to day life. This experience has given me pause to re-evaluate not only my M, but also my whole life. It's quite unsettling, but I think ultimately it could be beneficial for me and my whole family.

When I have my games pulled up, my H pauses at the pc to see if OM is on. Of course at some point I did wish that he would show up, but I'm glad he didn't otherwise we would have had to ban that too!

Why will I not allow myself to accept those reasons and move forward? I'm guessing it has to do with my R with my H. Unlike 2BN, my EA was relatively short. My H doesn't view the situation as a "serious" A, or that he was lied to and deceived. There is some but he simply has moved on from it. I think this is partly where my problem is. I have viewed this experience as much "larger" than he has. I have tried to explain this, but I don't know that he understands it (or wants to). Maybe he is in denial. So, whereas I think our M is in a crisis, he may believe it to be less urgent to repair. I see where things are returning to where they were before. Where Beavis, & Owl, & 2BN's H saw the wake-up call, my H is not.

I DO think our M is in a somewhat better place than it was before the EA. We have had some good communication, so I do see some improvement with relating to each other. I do believe we are BOTH trying in this area, and we are taking the time to be together and talk. Maybe I'm just being impatient and need to give it time.

I somewhat feel like a complainer - on the one hand happy that my H is able to let the EA go & not dwell on it; but then whining that he doesn't realize how big a deal it is. More thought needed on this!!!

I've been thinking lots about whether or not to share more about the EA with H. In one sense I WANT to tell ALL the details so H understands the depth of it and I would be free of them (the details), but I can't believe that "forcing" him to hear all the details would really be productive. I also wonder, as time goes on, if I will have less and less of a need to cleanse myself of the details anyway. Maybe that's just another way of "self-medicating" by bringing up OM? What do you think? I know that if things were reversed, I would want to hear it all, but he's just not interested.

early on we did talk about the fact that I felt that new "in-love" feeling. In fact, every time he questioned why I was still in withdrawal I would have to point out the strong feelings I had. I never said, either, that I loved OM, but I did say it felt like falling in love. Maybe he is just not "hearing" me, or, realizing the seriousness. I just don't know.

We had another busy weekend, but my H shocked me this morning when HE asked that we start back up with talking every night (we had made a concerted effort a while back, but since soccer season has started our evenings have been crazy!). This coming from the guy who I practically had to tie down to a chair to have more than a 5 minute conversation with. Oh, did I ever mention that my H is ADD? Anyway, I looked at him questioningly and he said he feels like we need to keep going forward and that we haven't been talking enough. I asked him if it feels like it did before the EA and he said it's not as bad as that, but wants it to be better. I have ALWAYS initiated these types of discussions, so I am pleasantly surprised to even hear this from him.

I just read Sys post from today. I can identify with him in that we, too, are working towards "liking" each other. We had gotten too far apart, and there wasn't much connection at all. I mentioned the ADD. My H has many wonderful qualities, but there has been quite a bit of chaos in our lives, too, in part due to some of his traits. I know that he feels responsible for causing a lot of it in the past, and my EA makes me more "human" to him. I think he sees it that my "mistake" has somehow made us more "equal" in our humanness. Isn't that strange?

He initially DID want to know the details, but since January when he discovered the EA he has not wanted to know more. Here's what happened in our case. For whatever reason, I saved all our IM conversations. My H had begun to suspect something was up. 2BN, my kids were aware I was chatting with "a friend" over Christmas vacation when I was home with them. This came up once or twice in conversations. I explained it away as my card partner and laughed it off to the whole family. At some point my H had heard the name once too often and put two and two together one night when I was up at 4 am chatting. At the time he didn't push me or look at what I was doing, but the following week he asked to check my email because he said he had given mine out for job hunting purposes. I gave it to him & he found an email where we had arranged to meet at a certain time. Immediately my H assumed this was a PA and we were meeting somewhere. He confronted me a couple days later & I explained it was an online friend. He said a few things that made me think he had read the conversations I had saved, so I asked him about that. It turns out he hadn't then, but it tipped him off to do a thorough pc search. He saw the conversations and read only a couple before I walked in one day. I know he read one where we were mildly flirting, but this is also how he found out about the webcams. He was outraged (naturally) and left the house, which is when I copied off the conversations and deleted them off the hard drive. He later asked about the conversations and when I told him I had deleted them he seemed somewhat relieved.

I think some BS would want to know every detail so that they could try to understand their WS and what was going on in their heads. But I think for my H it was enough to know that I was emotionally & physically attracted to someone else. I think that was enough information for him - that was bad enough.

I have found myself continuing to work through my issues, understanding what I need, trying to put other things in my life to fill those needs. Yet, still, OM is there. Despite all this time and CLARITY of what was, and what is, and what would ever be, OM 'shadows' me. For those of us who cannot seem to emotionally break the ties, I think the only solution is time & no contact. But how much time?

(posted on 12/06/05):
The other factor that could be helping with all this is our H's/M's, of course. For whatever reason, they are not getting to us. Maybe we are not allowing it, maybe they are not trying......As long as we feel that loss of what OM gave us, we will probably revert back to how they made us feel. The key is defining & filling that loss.
IMHO your refusal to get rid of the reminders of the OM kept you addicted to him longer.

Did you ever confess to your BH that you had printed off and kept the messages from the OM when you told him you'd deleted them?

Did you stop going to that game site that you secretly hoped OM would show up at?

Did you finally tear up and throw away that slip of paper with the OM's phone number on it?

Did you get another eyeglass case or do you still cherish the one that smells like the scent the OM wore?
Dr. Harley has some compelling thoughts on the co-dependency movement. He is very co-dependent and I am too!

Quote
How the Co-dependency Movement
Is Ruining Marriages
by Willard F. Harley, Jr.


Those of us in the business of trying to save marriages struggle daily with cultural beliefs and practices that make our job difficult. The sudden surge of divorces in the 1970's, that has made America the country with the highest divorce rate, has a great deal to do with changes in our basic beliefs. More to the point, it has to do with a major shift toward self-centeredness. Beliefs that encourage self-centeredness destroy marriage.

One of these is the belief that co-dependent behavior is self-defeating and that we should rid ourselves of it. It's a wolf in sheep's clothing and a marriage wrecker. I'll try to explain why I feel so strongly about this issue.

First, let me define what co-dependency is. I'll use a quotes from an article by Edmund J. Bourne. (The internet link to the original article is no longer available. But the quotes I use are so typical of co-dependency thinking that I still find it useful. And there are very few in the movement who would refute the gist of his position).

According to Bourne,


"Co-dependency can be defined as the tendency to put others needs before your own. You accommodate to others to such a degree that you tend to discount or ignore your own feelings, desires and basic needs. Your self-esteem depends largely on how well you please, take care of and/or solve problems for someone else (or many others)."

I look at that definition and think of Mother Teresa, how co-dependent she must have been. Not that I'm a Mother Teresa, but I certainly feel that I aspire to those objectives. If I find my self-esteem in the way I care for others, what's wrong with that? If we were all co-dependent, wouldn't this be a wonderful world?

Dr. Bourne offers us a questionnaire to complete to see if we are "dealing with co-dependency issues." Lets look at them one at a time:


1. If someone important to me expects me to do something, I should do it.
I don't hop whenever someone says hop. But if, say, God expects something of me (and he's certainly important), I believe I should do it. Okay, I'll leave God out of it. What about my wife, Joyce. Should I meet her every expectation? For starters, I can't do it. But on the other hand, I care about her. I want to do what I can to meet her needs, and avoid doing things that make her unhappy. She's not a princess and I'm not a slave, but she's important to me and I try to do what she expects of me. So if the person is as important as Joyce, I guess my answer to the first question is, "yes," with the qualifier, "try to do it."


2. I should not be irritable or unpleasant.
I know how people affect me when they're irritable or unpleasant. I want to head for the hills. So if I am concerned about how I affect other people, particularly Joyce, who has to live with me, I should protect her from my unpleasant tendencies, particularly my angry outbursts, disrespectful judgments and selfish demands. Those Love Busters can wreck our relationship in no time if I let them run amok. So my answer to this statement is "yes."


3. I shouldn't do anything to make others angry at me.
Well, let's see. What are some of the things I do that make others angry with me. I show them disrespect by interrupting them when they are talking, I point out their faults and failures, I get angry with them ... Yes, there are many things I've done that make others angry at me. When I am counseling, I can do some of them without my client feeling anger. They seem to expect me to point out their short-comings. In my years of counseling, very few clients have ever reported feeling angry with me.

But in my marriage, it's a different story. I firmly believe that when Joyce is angry with me, I had something to do with her experience. Because I don't want to do things that hurt her or upset her, I regret doing it.

Don't get me wrong. I don't believe that my mistakes justify an angry outburst on Joyce's part. She needs to protect me from her abusive behavior just as I need to protect her from mine. But if she feels anger toward me, I have done something that has annoyed or offended her, and should try to avoid it if I can. Another "yes" if it applies to Joyce, and a qualified "yes" regarding most other people.


4. I should keep people I love happy.
This gets to the core of what life in general, and marriage in particular, is all about. Why am I here, anyway? I chose psychology as a career partly because I wanted to make a difference in the lives of others. I specialized in marriage counseling because I found so many people in miserable marriages, and I thought I could help.

When I married Joyce, I wanted to make her happy. I know, we can't "make" anyone happy. Everyone has a huge role to play in their own happiness. But at least I wanted to try to meet her emotional needs, and I expected her to meet mine. And I wanted to avoid hurting her, just as I expected her to avoid hurting me. We both believed that we had a responsibility to each other to try to make each other happy, and avoid making each other unhappy.

I'm aware of the downside of trying to make people happy. If they turn all responsibility for their happiness over to us, we end up carrying a crushing load. But most people don't do that. It's only in unhealthy relationships that one person sucks the life out of the other. I'll get into that subject after we're done with the questionnaire, but with that qualification, my answer to this statement is, "yes."


5. It's usually my fault if someone I care about is upset with me.
This goes back to statement #3, that has to do with how I affect people. From a philosophical level, I think we can all agree that if someone is upset with us, we had at least something to do with their reaction. Whether or not we could have avoided it depends on all sorts of things, but even if we couldn't avoid it, it's still partially our fault. The word "usually" helps me answer this one with a "yes."


6. I obtain self-esteem out of helping others solve their problems.
What is self-esteem, anyway? It's feeling good about ourselves, feeling that we're okay. Getting back to my earlier question about the meaning of life, what do I have to feel good about? That I exist? No. I don't give myself any credit for my existence. I feel good about the choices I make and what I can do -- primarily for others. If I can't do anything for someone else, I'm certain I'd have no reason to have self-esteem.

Self-esteem is not something that I need in order to be productive. It's being productive that gives me self-esteem. It's what comes after we do something, not before. And what we do for self-esteem can't be just anything. It must be what we value. Of the things I do, what do I value the most? I'm afraid I fail the co-dependency test again. I value most what I do for others. So that means that the more I help others solve their problems, the better I feel about myself. I'm afraid this statements gets a "yes."


7. I tend to overextend myself in taking care of others.
Definitely, "yes."



8. If necessary, I put my own values or needs aside in order to preserve my relationship with my significant other.
We're talking about Joyce. This is a trick question because one of my values is to preserve my relationship with her at all costs. It is impossible to put that value aside, and still try to preserve my relationship with her. But I will assume that this statement refers to other values, and again I answer "yes."


9. I have a hard time receiving things from others.
I'd rather give than receive, if that's what the question is getting at. But I don't mind it when Joyce meets my needs. In fact, I expect her to meet my needs. So for the very first time, I will answer one of these statements with a "no."


10. Fear of someone else's anger has a lot of influence on what I say or do."
I'm one of those odd ducks that don't experience fear very often, so my answer to this one is also, "no." But I should add that people's anger does influence me, especially when it's Joyce's anger. But it is not fear that I experience, rather sadness that I did something to disappoint her.

After completing all these questions, I'm told by Dr. Bourne that if I answered three or more of these statements with a "yes," I am likely to be dealing with chemical dependency issues. What does eight "yes" responses mean? I must be a basket case!

As I read on in his article, I discover that:


"The consequences of maintaining a co-dependent approach to life is a lot of resentment, frustration and unmet personal needs. When these feelings and needs remain unconscious, they often resurface as anxiety -- especially chronic, generalized anxiety. The long-term effects of co-dependency are enduring stress, fatigue, burnout and eventually serious physical illness."
Is it too late? Have I been co-dependent too long to avoid these terrible consequences? Reading these predictions would put most people into a panic, but, remember, I don't experience fear or anxiety very often.

Wait just a minute! If I'm co-dependent, why don't I experience fear very often. Why is anxiety one of my least-felt emotions. After all, since I am so very co-dependent, you'd think that I would be a bundle of jangled nerves. But I'm not. I'm none of those things that Dr. Bourne says co-dependent people are.

I'm clearly co-dependent (most of those who know me well would attest to that), but I have no anxiety problems whatsoever. And no problems with depression, either. In fact, I am inexplicably happy. And neither my wife nor I have any chemical dependency issues, either. We are in love with each other, and have a great marriage.

Pity the poor person who has an anxiety disorder. Or more to the point, pity that person's spouse. The solution to "chronic, generalized anxiety" is to


not do what others's expect,

be as irritable and unpleasant as you wish,

make people angry with you,

don't try to make the people you love happy,

don't blame yourself when someone you care for is upset with you,

gain self-esteem from what you do for yourself, rather than what you do for others,

don't ever care about others so much that you overextend yourself,

maintain your values and needs even if it means ruining your marriage,

take from others whenever you can, and

don't let someone else's anger deter you from your objectives.

A formula for sociopathic behavior if I've ever seen one. You go in with anxiety and come out a terrorist!


If you want to know the truth, co-dependent beliefs and behavior do not lead to anxiety. They lead to healthy, happy marriages. Joyce and I am living proof.

You may be thinking, But how can that be? We've all been taught not to be co-dependent. It's blasphemy to challenge such a well-established belief system. Dr. Harley, now that I know how you feel about co-dependency, I'm not sure I can accept any of your concepts. You have really disappointed me.

Give me a chance to redeem myself. I, of all people, understand how the concepts of co-dependency started. I had a one-year internship in a treatment center for chemical dependency, and I owned and operated ten such centers myself. Co-dependency was something all of us addressed in marriages where one or both spouses were addicted to drugs or alcohol.

When an alcoholic is married to a loving and caring spouse, the spouse's love and care is sucked in like a black hole. It drains the caring spouse of everything they have, leaving him or her not only exhausted, but also having failed to meet their sick spouse's needs. In these cases, the non-alcoholic spouse must emotionally detach themselves or becomes emotionally destroyed.

When the 10 statements that we just considered are applied to care of an alcoholic, the answers are very different than the ones I gave. Consider them in the context of living with an alcoholic:


If the "important" person is an alcoholic, what they expect is often totally unrealistic and should not be done. Their addiction causes them to suffer very negative consequences, and they expect their spouses to shield them from those consequences. It can't, and shouldn't be done. If I were married to an alcoholic, my answer to this statement would be "no."

Anyone living with an alcoholic is going to be irritable and unpleasant. It can't be avoided, because the environment is so incredibly sick -- "no".

If you deny an alcoholic's unrealistic request, he or she will become angry. So it's impossible to avoid their anger. Again, "no."

You can't keep an alcoholic happy, because their emotional needs are sacrificed for whatever it takes to get their next drink. "No."

An alcoholic is upset because his addiction is ruining him, not because of something his spouse did. It's not the spouse's fault that he's upset. "No."

If you think you will gain self-esteem helping an alcoholic solve his problems, short of helping him overcome his addiction, you're not going to have any self-esteem. That's because he can't solve his problems as long as he's addicted. "No" is the answer.

Talk about overextension! If you want to be really overextended and get nothing for your effort, try to take care of an alcoholic. "No."

The spouses of alcoholics often try to make excuses for the alcoholism. It's called "enabling." It makes it possible to continue the addiction without suffering some of the consequences. In fact, many spouses become alcoholic themselves, just to preserve their relationship. They set aside their healthy values and ignore their normal needs just to be close to someone in the process of self-destruction. Left to their own devices they are then both destroyed. "No."

When you are used to giving until it hurts, like you do in a relationship with an alcoholic, you forget about the fact that you need something in return. Answer this one "no."

Alcoholics are often angry, and in order to avoid physical and verbal abuse, an alcoholic's spouse develops anxiety from the very real risk of physical and emotional harm. Unless you want to go down in flames, answer, "no."

Now it all makes sense in the context of an alcoholic marriage, and that's the context for which it was originally created. It made sense to me then, and it still does as long as it is limited to spouses of alcoholics. The problem arose when the alcoholic spouse was left out of the equation, and it was applied to all of us.

I attended a workshop on co-dependency a few years ago where we were told that co-dependency was wrong in any relationship. As those of us in the audience questioned the proposal, we all began to realize that we were all co-dependent, as defined by the workshop leader. Many of us complained that the very definition was so broad as to include most of humanity (excluding sociopathic people, of course). They felt that their co-dependent tendencies didn't seem to be a problem for them, so why should they try to overcome it. The workshop leader himself was at a loss to explain why they should change, except to express the warning that it leads to "stress, fatigue, burnout and eventually serious physical illness."

Since most in the room were skeptics, I doubt that any of them adopted the change to "save their sanity." But there are many people who are not so well-protected. When they see a therapist for anxiety and he gives them this list of dos and don'ts, they are in no position to be analytic. They accept it as truth, and in a futile effort to overcome anxiety, they destroy their marriage.

It is a most alarming scenario, both from a mental health standpoint, and from a marital standpoint. I have found that ridding someone of "co-dependent tendencies" does not rid them of anxiety. There are many effective methods that achieve that important objective, but this is not one of them.

But it is more than an ineffective way to treat anxiety. It also undermines one of the most important aspects of a person's life, their marriage. I have witnessed many who have been "treated" for anxiety and depression only to learn how to become impossible to live with. After driving their spouse out of their lives with their newly acquired selfish and destructive behavior, they are left feeling more anxious and depressed than ever, and divorced as well.

The care and consideration of our spouse does not leave us emotionally disabled -- unless our spouse turns out to be an addict. When it comes to addiction in marriage, my advice is to run for cover! But in marriages that do not suffer from addiction, care and consideration is not the problem, but rather the solution to problems.

In my judgment, the co-dependency movement, which began with such valuable insight, has become a monster. In over-reaching, it has subjected healthy people to the same norms as unhealthy people, and in so doing, has caused much more harm than good. Married couples should be on guard from the ruinous effects of the co-dependency movement on marriage, especially if one of them suffers from anxiety or depression.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8110_cod.html
my definition of codependency must be WAAAAAAY off then

i always thought it meant that you needed somebody else to make you happy
Posted By: Stellakat Re: Question for/about men being "in love" - 08/04/08 06:54 PM
WOW, I just now saw all this;

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1314539#Post1314539


I am stunned. You ruined your own marriage and now you are trying to LURE a divorced Christian man who had been cheated on by his wife!

**EDIT**
Posted By: Stellakat Re: Question for/about men being "in love" - 08/04/08 07:07 PM
One of the first things I asked my husband when we were dating was if he had cheated on anyone. If he had, I would have dumped him right away.

Who wants a spouse who has cheated in thier previous marriage!!!?

* No one!

If I were you I would leave the man alone, his wife cheated on him and he does not want nor does he need... another cheater in his life.
Posted By: Owl Re: Question for/about men being "in love" - 08/04/08 07:15 PM
Cards-

WOW...its been a long time, friend.

I've pretty much stopped posting to this site anymore...but happened to stop by today and saw that someone had resurrected your thread from ages ago...and mentioned this thread here.

I've not read through your current situation yet...I'll do so now, and will post whatever advice comes to mind if you like.

I've often wondered about you, 2BN, and others.
Posted By: Owl Re: Question for/about men being "in love" - 08/04/08 07:24 PM
**EDIT**
"One of the first things I asked my husband when we were dating was if he had cheated on anyone. If he had, I would have dumped him right away.

Who wants a spouse who has cheated in thier previous marriage!!!?"

Not me. She hasn't answered Melody's question yet about whether or not she's told her current boyfriend about her internet affair. She probably just told him her BH was too messed up to be married to, and so was the guy she dated for 6 months between her divorce and the current BF.

I worry that she's chasing that 'new love' feeling, still craving that high from her affair, changing lovers in pursuit of that. She has consistently commented about HER NEEDS not being met. I think it would help if she took some time off from dating and honestly looked at whether or not her desire for that initial 'in love' feeling qualifies as an EN that can be maintained by any one man (versus a string of men).


**edit**

For real?
Is that a site that 'supports' adultery?
If so the name is certainly appropriate LOL.
Posted By: Owl Re: Question for/about men being "in love" - 08/04/08 07:56 PM
Its for real. The site itself has forums for virtually every relationship and/or situation that normally comes up.

It doesn't "support" affairs...in itself, its agnostic on the subject, but the vast majority of the posters do not support infidelity in any fashion (although, there are exceptions).

I started posting there originally, and then came to MB when I heard about it from there. There are a couple of posters there that post here on LS, and many that used to post on this site but no longer tend to do so.

And I've got to say...I'm not overly fond of the name either!!!! smile smile smile

But its a good forum that's well moderated and very active. Hopefully I'm not violating TOS here by making the suggestion that she visit that site.
"The care and consideration of our spouse does not leave us emotionally disabled -- unless our spouse turns out to be an addict. When it comes to addiction in marriage, my advice is to run for cover! But in marriages that do not suffer from addiction, care and consideration is not the problem, but rather the solution to problems."

I agree. And when the addiction is to selfishness and wanting another hit of that affair high, the BS has the deck stacked against them.

Taking care of your own children, loving and being faithful to your spouse even though they have problems, doesn't render you emotionally disabled, so supposedly in danger of being (I don't know - whatever she was whining about) that you have to cheat and divorce as some sort of self-preservation.

Her BH, the father of her children, still has to work through his problems, the divorce didn't eliminate any problems and probably made them much worse.

It's not the same as dumping the guy she dated for 6 months, who had the same issues as her BH, but they weren't married and didn't have children together.
(And how did THAT make sense anyway? She HAD TO get out of the marriage to her BH because of his problems so she could pursue a relationship with a new man with the SAME problems?)

Ah but a new man could give her that 'in love' high she was craving... for a little while anyway...


Posted By: Owl Re: Question for/about men being "in love" - 08/04/08 08:37 PM
So...the real question at this point is, what advice can we give her to help her in the situation she's in right NOW?

She's been divorced quite a while...there's nothing we can say or do on THAT front to fix things.


My suggestion is this:

Your BF clearly has placed his business as his primary need/goal/focus in his life. You've mentioned that this was potentially a contributing factor in the demise of his marriage.

Why would you want to become involved with someone in this kind of position?

At 49, you know he's not going to change.

Therefore, your only choices are to accept him, and the relationship as it stands...as it is. OR...you don't accept it...and you move on.

At the end of the day...is this the relationship that you want??? A "FWB" situation with someone who's not willing to open to you emotionally???

I'd doubt it.

I'd suggest that you end the relationship...

My thoughts at least.
"So...the real question at this point is, what advice can we give her to help her in the situation she's in right NOW?"

Well since she keeps getting herself into the same situation:

She left her BH who was 'emotionally unavailable' because he was 'severely mentally ill' (and she only realized he was so mentally ill after she went to an IC for a while... her previous posts clearly demonstrated that her BH was putting in valiant recovery efforts, was 'emotionally available' enough to draw her a candlelit bubble bath, and was a very involved parent...
but then he got re-written-off as too worthless to stay married to...)

She left her BH for a man she dated for 6 months that just happened to have the same problems as her BH, so she dumped him too, and now she's dating another man who guess what, is 'emotionally unavailable' too!

What exaclty IS her definition of 'emotional availablity'?
It's: give me that 'new love' high that I got addicted to when involved with the married man I met online, and give it to me RIGHT NOW, and when it starts to wear off I will dump you for another man who is more 'emotionally available'.

She needs to accept the fact that the high she got from the married OM she met online was just a chemical high that she needs to go through complete withdrawal from. You don't kick an addiction by switching drug dealers. By her own description her BH was doing a really good job of trying to meet her EN's and trying to help her through withdrawal.

She sabotaged that by keeping her focus on the OM, sniffing his scent throughout the day, and making contact with OM again after she'd assured her BH it was over, hanging out at the gaming site she met the oM at and hopong he'd stop by there, and expecting her BH to listen to her talk about the OM when he didn't want to. So now she needs to go through withdrawal by herself, without her BH's support (unless he's still willing to help her - he may be open to reconciliation for all we know and is waiting for her to defog).

Her problem is her problem - her addiction that she is trying to KEEP going, using new OM to get her next fix. NO one particular man can keep that high going for her non-stop forever.
Unless she plans on changing sex partners every few months or so she's going to just have to learn to live without that 'we just fell in love for the first time' feeling, learn to do the work of creating a more mature love. She needs to put down that crack pipe.

Rebound relationships only delay recovery. It's advised to wait one year for every 5 years you're married before dating. Since she's been involved with 4 different men in the past few years (her BH, the married man shemet online, the guy she dated for 6 months, and this latest guy) she has not given herself any time to go through withdrawal and recovery.

If she would stop chasing that high, using new OM to achieve it temporarily, and get through withdrawal, she could then respond to any reconciliation offer her BH might still be making (meet his Plan B requirements). If her BH is no longer interested in marital recovery then she could go on to maybe someday start a new relationship with a man she will not make unrealsitic demands of.

And since she won't answer whether or not the man she's with now knows about her affair with the married man she met online, and his XW cheated on him, it's not fair to him to help her continue her relationship with him. I want no part of helping her do that to him.

"She's been divorced quite a while...there's nothing we can say or do on THAT front to fix things."

For all we know her BH could be working on himself, hoping for marital recovery, in a Plan B waiting for his WXW to unfog. WHY would anyone take the word of a WS that there's "nothing" that can be said or done on that front?!?!? Especially here at MB's?!?!? So as soon as the WS starts telling others that the marriage is over, that the divorce is final, then we should all just beleive that, write off the BS, and focus on helping the WS make their new relationship work? You realize that would pretty much write off every BS posting here at MB's, right? I mean are there many WS's who do NOT claim that their marriage is over with no chance of reconciliation? And isn't it common knowledge that WS's lie, and even sometimes claim they're no longer married before the divorce really is final? And even when the divorce is final sometimes the BS is still hoping and working on possible reconciliation. We have no idea what her BH and BC want - just what she wants.

I was still open to reconciliation with my WH after the divorce was final. If he had come here asking for help in one of his new relationships would you have helped him? You would have just assumed that because he said the divorce was final that my daughters and I deserved no consideration, that what WE were hoping and praying for didn't count anymore? BTW, he was telling people he was divorced long before we really were. He was calling me his ex-wife from the moment he moved out to pursue OW, a couple years before the divorce was final, when I was doing Plan A.

BTW, he told the OW and his co-workers I was 'crazy' too.
Isn't that part of the typical fog-babble?
And of course he was the one who supposedly put all the effort into the marriage and the false recoveries... not me...

Sheesh - how is it that some posters here at MB's still fall for fog-babble?

Amazing IMHO.

Posted By: Owl Re: Question for/about men being "in love" - 08/05/08 04:44 PM
I'm not sure who's "falling for fog-babble" here...because my friend, I'm not.

Does Cards still need some help? Obviously...no question about that.

As far as her BH still waiting on her...that may or may not be. We have no way to know that from here. Unlike many here, I'm of the opinion that the marriage ends when the divorce is final. She's no longer married to him...she's no longer required to 'wait' for him or otherwise plan around him in her life.

So she's divorced...and there's nothing left to do about the marriage, UNLESS SHE CHOOSES OTHERWISE. (perhaps I should have inlcuded that the first time?)

Blunt question...what direct, practical advice do you have for her? What ACTIONS does she need to take to sort things out? HOW do you suggest she solve her problems?

As much as you're amazed by people "falling for fog-babble", I'm just as amazed by long term posters who are equally unable to provide advice and guidance to a poster without first attempting to shame them into submission.
Posted By: Owl Re: Question for/about men being "in love" - 08/05/08 05:08 PM
Quote
I was still open to reconciliation with my WH after the divorce was final. If he had come here asking for help in one of his new relationships would you have helped him? You would have just assumed that because he said the divorce was final that my daughters and I deserved no consideration, that what WE were hoping and praying for didn't count anymore? BTW, he was telling people he was divorced long before we really were. He was calling me his ex-wife from the moment he moved out to pursue OW, a couple years before the divorce was final, when I was doing Plan A.

If your H had posted here...we would have ALL had to rely on him telling the truth of your situation. You've already indicated he probably wouldn't have.

So we would have provided advice based on whatever lie he told in the first place.

All we can provide advice on is what's in front of us. Had he come here and not stated that you were open to reconciliation...I would have had no input one way or another on whether or not your marriage was recoverable or not.

Let me ask you this...if a BS came to this site telling us that they were divorced from their WS...would you recommend to them that they try to reconcile with their WS as the first course of action? If they said nothing about wanting to reconcile with that WS?
"As far as her BH still waiting on her...that may or may not be."

Yes, it MAY BE. Why ignore that possibility?
What if her BH IS still waiting for her and her BC are praying their WM will get back together with their BF?

"We have no way to know that from here."

No we don't, so why believe the word of a WS?
You are aware that WS's are not very honest, right?
You have heard of fog-babble, re-writing history, and the flat out lying that WS's do, right?
Even if it were a 50/50 chance that she's telling the truth (it it weren't a fact that WS's lie), why believe her and ignore her what her BH might want?

"Unlike many here, I'm of the opinion that the marriage ends when the divorce is final."

But you admit you have no idea whether the divorce is really final! And even if it is, are you really saying to the BS's who post at MB's that are still hoping and working towards reconciliation, even though their divorce is final, that you choose to support the relationship their WXS is in with whatever new OP instead of helping them?!?

So if my WXH had posted here, after the divorce, when I was still open to reconciliation, waiting for him to defog and meet my Plan B requirements, asking for help in trying to salvage one of his shack-up relationships, you WOULD HAVE defended/supported/assisted that relationship with no regard for what my daughters and I wanted?!?!? WOW!

"She's no longer married to him..."

You do NOT know that.
Again, my WH was telling people we were divorced before he even filed for divorce, calling me his XW.
You can't possibly be that gullible.
Sometimes WS tell the OP they're single and never even were married, others claim they're separated when they really aren't, and some even say they're divorced before the divorce is final.

"she's no longer required to 'wait' for him or otherwise plan around him in her life."

She never did give her BH a chance, she didn't 'wait' for him.
She got involved with a married man, then made sure the recovery was only a false recovery by persisting to obsess over the OM and cruelly expecting her BH to listen to her whine about how much the OM/affiar meant to her, while her BH put in lots of effort trying to meet her EN's to no avail. Her BH was VERY forgiving and understanding but she wanted him to validate her feelings for the OM, to pretend that the affair meant more than it really was - just a selfish irresponsible crush on another woman's husband. So she re-wrote history changing her description of her BH so he would sound so awful that her affair and a divorce would sound justifiable (to anyone who doesn't know better because it's just fog-babble).

And then she was right away involved with another OM, and then another.

WHEN did she 'wait' for her BH or give him a real chance?

What if her BH is still waiting for her?
Does the BH matter at all to you?
Weren't you a BS?

Since when is what the WS claims and wants the only thing that matters?
Posted By: Owl Re: Question for/about men being "in love" - 08/05/08 05:27 PM
I was a BS.

I'm currently in a VERY happy marriage that's been recovered for four years now.

Quote
Since when is what the WS claims and wants the only thing that matters?

Quote
No we don't, so why believe the word of a WS?
You are aware that WS's are not very honest, right?
You have heard of fog-babble, re-writing history, and the flat out lying that WS's do, right?
Even if it were a 50/50 chance that she's telling the truth (it it weren't a fact that WS's lie), why believe her and ignore her what her BH might want?

Given that...what's the value of posting to this thread at all? In any fashion? Aren't you wasting your valuable time doing so?

I get where you're coming from...but I don't share your viewpoint about WS as a whole. Anyone who comes here does deserve the chance to be helped in some fashion.

Does a BS matter to me at all? CERTAINLY...I've BEEN ONE.

But he's not here, she's indicated that she's divorced, and unless I have some kind of evidence to the contrary I work with the information I've got.

Therefore, I'll post advice as I see fit, as long as I'm not violating TOS.

Is the BS the ONLY person who matters in all of this?
"Blunt question...what direct, practical advice do you have for her? What ACTIONS does she need to take to sort things out? HOW do you suggest she solve her problems?"

What I've already stated:

Stop trying to keep/get that next fix of addictive 'new love' by starting new relationships.

Spend some time alone or with her BH (if he is still willing to help her through recovery) long enough to get over her addiction.

This chasing after the an unsustainable elusive high, using new OM to get her next fix, can't possibly be good for her children.

Addictions end one of two ways:

withdrawal or crash and burn

I will not participate in 'supporting' her further along the crash and burn path even if by doing so it might win the approval of some of the posters here.
Posted By: Owl Re: Question for/about men being "in love" - 08/05/08 05:32 PM
Quote
I will not participate in 'supporting' her further along the crash and burn path even if by doing so it might win the approval of some of the posters here.

Fair enough. I won't support her crash and burn either...which is why I recommend that she get the help she needs.

Nor will I change to win approval of some of the posters here either. Nice to know we can agree on something.
Posted By: Stellakat Re: Question for/about men being "in love" - 08/05/08 06:02 PM
**EDIT**
"But he's not here, she's indicated that she's divorced, and unless I have some kind of evidence to the contrary I work with the information I've got."

That must have been the POV of all those who failed to confront my WH and his OW when he was committing adultery, their co-workers. I guess they just figured since they didn't really know me and my daughters, and the adulterers were telling them my marriage was 'over', and referring to me as the 'ex-wife', then their relationship was real and worthy of support?

And believing anything a WS claims, unless you somehow get some kind of evidence contrary, is gullibility IMHO.

I guess you didn't notice her lack of honesty with her BH, her dishonesty by omission when she came back without informing posters she destroyed her marriage because of an online affair with a married man, and her failure to answer our questions, eh?
None of that hurt her credibility at all in your eyes?
Posted By: Owl Re: Question for/about men being "in love" - 08/05/08 08:17 PM
So what do you recommend we do...beat her with a stick?
Originally Posted by Owl
So what do you recommend we do...beat her with a stick?

Owl, my recommendation is that you admit that you don't know what is helpful for waywards, most especially Cardsonly. We can see the result of your "help." You posted to her 2 years ago and she still has a wayward mind, that should tell you something.

While you are very intolerant of meremortals posts, you were VERY TOLERANT of the sickening, enabling, affair glorifying posts written by members of your so called "support" group back in 2005. This is the kind of "support" she received back then and you never said a word against it:

IWRA wrote:

Quote
I know you know that Cardsonly and 2BNormal and I share
emailing. We have become wonderful friends. We have been
able to share inner struggles that are too personal for MB.

We write our feelings without fear of rebuke;yet we give encouragement
to always do what is right.

BlessedTime:
Quote
Your life with your husband reading the messages, did
not have this dramatic happening, true?
So if the OM wanted, he could email or call you, is that right also?

I am sure he is WONDERING about how you are doing but evidently he
thinks it best for his marriage to not have you be a part of his life.

And yeah, after 3 months of emails saying how wonderful, pretty, fun and
sexy you are, this is a hard DRUG to be without even though you know in
your mind it is for the best.

(Your heart, the place that has false reasoning, says differently, and
yes you absolutely will have severe withdrawal from his loving
attention, it is understandable.)

Quote
BlessedTime:You and the OM were both filling emotional needs for
one another; it is hard for you to accept that part of your life is
over.

If it makes you feel any better, your NOT contacting him is making
him WONDER about you, think of and miss you more than if you were
'chasing him'with continual emails and calls.
You are remaining a MYSTERY to him
although I am sure he knows how
you feel by that phone conversation 2 weeks ago.

Cardsonly replied:
Quote
BlessedTime, thank you for saying what I
needed to hear about OM probably missing me. Whether it's true or not,
it lessens the pain. The song touched me and started the tears. Maybe
the crying is a sign that I am accepting the loss finally.

Quote
IWRA: We willingly walked into this TRAP for the thrill and
excitement of this secret romance.
We soaked up the compliments, attention and affection like a sponge,
didn't we?

I bet today I have checked my email 50 times, hoping for a message from
him.
Do you guys still do that? I last heard from him Wednesday night, but I
can tell it is ending.
I guess I am just wanting him to throw me a crumb of attention.
He was a widow man for a year and sure liked me a lot and has been so
wonderful to me.

I just really really miss him as I know you that have had online
romances do also.


Quote
IWRA: So of course we have NEVER kissed. (But we have discussed
how wonderful touches and kisses would be.)


Dreamers, just a couple of foolish dreamers!
A fantasy world as we should know, all online affairs eventually end. We
live hundreds and hundreds of miles apart.
There must have been a big void in our hearts or it would have never
happened.

Maybe we just wanted and needed this attention from another man to make
us feel more like feminine and desirable women.

I do wish him happiness, YET, even so, I WILL MISS HIS KIND WORDS AND
ATTENTION. frown

Quote
IWRA: OM and I have had several phone conversations, I love his
voice. I did see him at the alumni but didn't talk to him.
I will see him in June of this year at the alumni. (Scary) (But there
will be hundreds of people there.)

We have emailed pictures and I will admit I emailed one of my bare
bosoms! He NEVER asked me to, I wanted to. I was the aggressor I think.

I can't believe I did that. UNREAL really!

I guess it is like women that write Romance novels, use their sexual
imagination and that is similar to what I did with my OM. I took him on
a little adventure! I was on an exciting secret adventure also. He
certainly unleashed MY sexually. WHEW!

My husband sees me more as a companion than a lover. Oh well.~sigh~ I
know I should try harder, for him to see this sexual side of me.
But so many years together, it is just kinda ho hum.


This is the kind of "SUPPORT" Cardsonly recieved on Marriage Builders back in 2005. The kind of support to which OWL participated in and advocated. I am SAD, SO SAD, that Cardsonly never recieved any REAL SUPPORT on Marriage Builders in the past. She only received enablement. I am ASHAMED that this went on on Marriage Builders. With your support, OWL.







Posted By: Owl Re: Question for/about men being "in love" - 08/05/08 09:04 PM
Interesting that you seek to enforce how/what I post, Mel. I thought that was something you were dead set against?

Please...if you feel my post violates TOS on this site...ensure the mods are aware of it. Otherwise, please feel free to NOT to tell me what I can or cannot, should or should not post.

Thanks.
Owl, read my post again. I have never told you how to post or who to post to. Yet you do this to meremortal.

But I have a question for you, Owl. I ask this very sincerely:

Can you show me one post on that thread where you told one of your affair supporting sycophants that their pro-affair posts were "not helpful?"

You have told meremortal that her posts are "not helpful." Can you show me a post where you said the same thing in response to the affair enabling posts on that thread?

Can you point me to them?



Quote
I have been divorced about 2 years


That is "about" 24 months since your divorce


Quote
After divorcing I dated a man for about 6 months


That took up 6 month's of your time after your divorce

Quote
I have been dating this man for about 14 months.

You've been dating this current guy 14 months ... add that to the 6 months you dated the first post-divorce guy = 20 months of dating in the 24 months you've been divorced

What's you hurry?

When did you grieve the loss and failure of your 20 year marriage?

There is something very strange and unsettling here. Yes, I've read this thread, and also re-read parts of your old thread - and it seems to me you have learned very little, if anything, about your failures, your weaknesses ... you've been very busy dating inappropriate men ....

BUT the one thing that frosts my cake is this:

Quote
Or is he simply unable to emotionally attach to me, in which case I should move on to a relationship where the feelings can be reciprocated?


.... here you are .... already contemplating "moving on" .... WHY? What's the point? What's your hurry?

Do you not see how you are doomed to continually seeking the next relationship?

Are you blind to the fact that it is YOU who has been emotionally unattached & unavailable in relationships?
You were unattached in your marriage. And you are unattached with these men as well.

It's you. It's not "them".

slow down
don't date anyone for 2 years
YOU are not ready to date.
You haven't learned much.

Pep







"You have told meremortal that her posts are "not helpful."

Actually since I most certainly do not intend to help adulterers destroy marriages/families, not even inadvertantly (um because some posters lie to us here), I take it as a compliment when adultery anablers point out that I am "not helpful".

I certainly wish some of the people my WXH crossed paths with would have been "not helpful" while he and the OW had destroying my marriage/family as their agenda.

OWL seems to be one of the posters here at MB's who isn't REALLY opposed to adultery. I've met lots of people like her IRL (one of the reasons why MB is needed - a place where BS's can escape from the stench of our adultery-excusing culture). They might not like it if somebody cheated on THEM, or one of their close friends or relatives... BUT if they themselves want to cheat (or one of their close friends or relatives is an adulterer) then it's OK. They just want to 'support' whatever it is their friends/relatives want to do.

(I do wonder though how they decide who to support when they are friends with both the WS and the BS?)

If my WXH had come here to MB's before I did, asking for help in trying to save his crumbling adulterous relationship, OWL admits she would have been more than happy to help him. She has admitted that she would believe whatever he might tell her, would have no qualms about relegating me, my daughters, my marriage, our family to the garbage heap of 'over', too late, so let's focus on helping him save his new relationship with the OW... based on whatever lies he might feed her!

She seems unable to grasp the concept that ADULTERERS TELL LIES in order to justify what they are doing.

I don't particularly like to be lied to and played for a fool, especially when the liar's agenda is something as evil as adultery. OWL doesn't seem to mind being used that way I guess.
This is probably because she isn't really anti-adultery so much as she's pro-whatever-my-friend-wants-help-with (even if her 'friend' is a philanderer that she just happened to meet before or instead of meeting the BS). My guess is that OWL excuses the dishonesty by blaming it on us, that the philanderers 'have to' lie here in order to con the posters into giving them help, because we won't willingly help adulterers pursue adultery.

If cardsonly was addicted to a street drug (instead of the chemical her own body produces when she's 'in love'), and for whatever reason her current drug dealer just wasn't satisfying her anymore, for sure she'd want 'help' in finding a way to get her current drug dealer to get better at meeting her 'need'.. or 'help' in justifying dumping him for a new drug dealer. Somebody like me would be "not helpful" with that agenda.

Cardsonly is afraid of going through withdrawal.
I understand her desire to avoid that unpleasantness.
She wants a way to keep the fixes coming.
I understand that too.
But I refuse to "help" her get what she wants for the same reason I don't give cash to an alcoholic or drug addicted homeless person. (I'll give them food, toiletries, volunteer at the soup kitchen, but I will not support them getting their next addictive high.)

I know what carsonly wants. But I doubt seriously that what cardsonly wants is the same thing that her BH and BC want.
I will not pretend they don't exist or that she is telling the truth about them. I know better than to believe the lies of an active adulterer.



Originally Posted by Owl
So what do you recommend we do...beat her with a stick?

Telling her to put down the crack pipe for starters.

Telling her that her problem is not that her current partner (drug dealer) is not the problem, and that a new partner (drug dealer) isn't going to solve her problem.

She needs to withdraw.

She needs to face the fact that what she wanted to pretend was something special was just a married man getting some cheap thrills online with a married woman.

She got a chemical high from that.
She made the false assumption that artificial temporary high was 'real love'.

She expected her BH to get/keep her just as high ASAP or else he was supposedly not meeting her EN's. (Plus she cruelly expected her BH to listen to her fog-babble about how wonderful and real her affair feelings were - she pretended THAT was a valid part of recovery, an EN he owed it to her to fill.) She thought recovery meant she wouldn't have to go through withdrawal - she could juts stay high. Her BH 'failed' to meet that 'need' for her.

So she got her next fix from OM#2.
That high wore off fast - it took 6 months for her to realize he was 'emotionally unavailable' too... (as in couldn't KEEP her high forever)

So then she turned to OM#3.
The 'new love' high he gave her is wearing off now too...
They guy owns restaurants and simply doesn't have the time to dote over her and keep her thrilled and giddily 'in love'.
(BTW I work in food service - your spouse pretty much has to work in the restaurant with you to make both the marriage and the business successful.)

Withdrawal will be painful for her.
But not as ultimately painful as wasting even more years jumping from one man to the next.

You want to encourage her in seeking her next high.
I want to take the crack pipe away from her.

You can call my approach 'blunt' or 'hitting her with a stick'...
IMHO your approach is called 'killing her with kindness'.

Also, from the perspective of her BC, whose approach do you think they are praying somebody will present to her? EVEN if all bridges to reconciliaton with her BH have been burned, it is not in the best interest of their children for her to be dating so soon and with so many different men. It doesn't give them enough time to heal from the break-up of their family, sets a horrible example, adds to their embarrassment and humiliation, and could even endanger them.




An interesting message. You are asking about him, but most of the information you gave us is about you. What is his background?


But, both men and women get a bit gun shy after one or two divorces. Having endured the pain of divorce once, one is not anxious to go through it again.

Unfortunately, when it comes to relationships, marriage guarantees nothing. If you live in a no-fault state like I do, your spouse can leave for any reason, behave miserably towards you, lie, cheat and steal, and IT DOESN'T MATTER. Thus, many men and women view marriage with suspicion and want a very high degree of certainty before they commit to it.

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