Marriage Builders
Posted By: NewEveryDay Letting go - 04/01/09 08:54 PM
I started a new thread, again because I can't change the title of the old one. I'm glad that y'all have still been so patient with me. DH is finishing up this project, he emailed me to tell me that his boss told him that the head guy is planning to extend him an offer, in the Northeast.

I'm relieved for him, because he was nervous that he had no open offers going. I'm not thinking that I want to move at this point, because while I'm working to keep an open mind, my long term plan is still to cut my losses, and I'm trying to be realistic instead of telling myself that it's going to change. But I would be willing to go on a trip up there with him or with the family to check it out if it's a good offer.

DH has worked for this guy at different companies on and off for over ten years now. This guy moved to this company in the Northeast solely to be closer to his daughter who lives there after living down here for many years away from her when he and his wife divorced and she moved away. So I think this guy would really understand DH wanting to be where his family is. DH has been working remotely for him for the last two years. Here was my response

"How would you feel about asking [him] how he would feel about hiring you as a remote employee?"

I'm a little nervous that DH may feel this as putting pressure, but I hope not.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 04/01/09 08:55 PM
Oh I forgot to say, I sent him an earlier response with a congratulations for the offer.
Posted By: catperson Re: Letting go - 04/01/09 08:56 PM
{{{ears}}}

That was very brave.
Posted By: SeekingWife Re: Letting go - 04/01/09 09:25 PM
Originally Posted by ears_open
I'm not thinking that I want to move at this point, because while I'm working to keep an open mind, my long term plan is still to cut my losses, and I'm trying to be realistic instead of telling myself that it's going to change. But I would be willing to go on a trip up there with him or with the family to check it out if it's a good offer. "How would you feel about asking [him] how he would feel about hiring you as a remote employee?"

I'm a little nervous that DH may feel this as putting pressure, but I hope not.

I rarely post to anyone else's thread as I feel so inept. However, it sounds as if you have really given up on your marriage. I wonder what is so bad about it that you feel that way? Would you, or anyone else mind offering me a summary of your situation the way someone did on my thread recently for a new reader? I'd like to understand your situation a bit more since you are always so nice and helpful on my thread.
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Letting go - 04/01/09 10:07 PM


I think your asking your husband about the remote arrangement is a great idea. If he's enthusiastic about that, and you're ok with the potential of more travel, then it could be a great solution. I guess though, I'm a bit confused because I thought there were other issues that were leading up to a separation. I wonder if you need to resolve those before tackling the move/remote issue?
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 04/02/09 02:09 PM
SW, my history in a nutshell...

Grew up in a happy home, with a brother two years younger, with a lot of family and friends. When I was 10, my Dad left my mom to marry his coworker. He says he was no longer attracted to her. My mom remarried and had four more kids, but my stepfather was very violent and abusive to my mom and to us kids. I met DH and married him at 21. I was already pregnant then, not really an accident, we'd both said we wanted kids right away and we took no precautions. We had a lot of fun together, but we also argued a lot and were very critical of each other. We had our older daughter, and I taught school, and then we both fell off a cliff with resentment. I hated him for putting massive hours into work and out with the boys and he hated me for not keeping the house clean and gaining weight.

I resigned from teaching because I was burnt out with sole responsibility of our baby and first year teaching in a difficult school. If I'd had more experience, or the baby was older, I probably would have handled that with more grace, but at that point I was very depressed and stressed out and didn't think I could do it for another year. I went to work at a business that was losing money he had bought into before we married with the intent to turn around, but I had no experience in it. I worked very hard, but it was still bleeding cash. We got an offer to sell at a huge loss and we took it. This was DH's life savings, pretty much wiped out, so it makes sense that he wanted to stay at work all the time, even though he was on salary. I went to IC but I was still totally in despair that I didn't know how to turn this around into a happy life again. The IC made suggestions to work harder and I did but it didn't help anything.

At H's insistence I went back to college; we thought if I earned a better salary that might somehow resolve our issues. I hoped he would respect me as an equal if I did that. So I did that, again it was very tough, H started travelling extensively, and we had another baby at that point. We both had very unrealistic expectations of ourselves, and I was still very full of despair that we would never turn this around. They say what we fear, we create. We had a lot of good times, too, though.

H lost his job, and didn't work for a year. We moved for a job I was offered in the Midwest, and he found a job there before we got there. I did an internship there, went back with the kids to our hometown to finish school, and then took a permanent job there, and along the way H left his job and went from enthusiastic to threatening to take the kids away from me. So he took our older daughter, then 7, to LA to see if she would get an agent to do acting there, the way she'd done in our hometown. Nothing panned out, so he sent her back to me. Again we did the long distance thing, him working in California, Washington, and here in our hometown in Florida. I found faith there, though, and that gave me a lot of hope. That there was a plan for me and my family. That we were going to be okay.

I was able to get a transfer back here to our hometown, and the consulting group H was and is working for had work for him here. It was a joint decision, but H was very dissappointed that it hadn't worked out for us to move to LA at that time. I found MB when we were back, and also Alanon, but things got a lot worse in my marriage before they got better. I learned that it was bad for my marriage when I did things I was not enthusiastic about, so I stopped doing that, and kicked a lifelong battle I've had with my temper. I was no longer the same kind of mad and hateful and resentful when I came to realize no one can make me do something I don't want to do. It was like freeing myself from a cage. My depression lifted a lot, too, though the weight loss still doesn't come naturally to me yet.

My H and I were growing together, making a lot of progress, for a while. Two steps forward, one step back. We were in MC, and our issues came to a head, and I put my foot down about the angry outbursts and the mocking. I wish that I had understood that I could have done that from the beginning. But I'm glad that I can do that today. We do have a very nice life today. No more angry outbursts. Lots of UA and FC time together, when H is in town. I'm grateful that we can enjoy these things today. But I don't have a partner, someone who has my back like I have his. But I like having his back in the meantime. Again I would have loved if we could have started out like this.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 04/02/09 02:24 PM
Originally Posted by ourhouse
I guess though, I'm a bit confused because I thought there were other issues that were leading up to a separation. I wonder if you need to resolve those before tackling the move/remote issue?

Yes, I do still have those concerns. I have been very O&H that I believe that other folks are successful addressing these concerns every day, and I would like to address these concerns together. But H believes that he has already addressed my concerns and is not willing to explore that further. A valid choice, too. But not one that I am enthusiastic about.

I am working on keeping an open mind on the job offer. I definitely think we don't have enough information today. The last time he was given an offer with this company, they said they would take us as a package deal, like jayne talks about. If DH does not get work here, there are benefits to the kids to living in the same place as their dad, even if it's not our hometown. On the other hand, there are also benefits to the kids to having the stability of staying in their community with their extended family and friends they've grown up with. I have a family-oriented perspective, so I would tend to think kids are better off with both parents close by, even if it meant transitions in where they live. I am working on keeping an open mind, doesn't mean that I am successful with that right now. My actual feelings that I really really don't want to do that.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 04/02/09 02:29 PM
And I forgot to say, H got home last night. He said that he will not inquire about a remote position. He didn't think that the big guy would be more understanding just because he moved to be closer to his own daughter. He said that guy left a great job at a great company for an okay job at an okay one and if these were jobs that could be done remotely he would have asked for that in his own situation. I understand that makes sense to him. I'm not mad at myself for getting excited about that idea, in brainstorming not all the ideas are going to be liked.
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Letting go - 04/02/09 02:32 PM
Thanks for the story again, Ears.
I admire your willingness to do whatever it takes to improve your marriage. I wish I had that inner strength.

I'm trying my best to improve my 50% according to MB principles but there's a part of me that thinks H is just hanging around 'til something better comes along and because he'd rather not/can't afford to be by himself right now and he wants to be near the kids. And that as soon as his situation changes, he'll be out. And that's not acceptable to me. I know now that he's capable of incredible degrees of lying and lying by omission and that's not comforting in the least. At times my mindset is 'dump him before he dumps you'.

I will choose divorce over the alcohol issue though if it comes to that.
Posted By: catperson Re: Letting go - 04/02/09 02:32 PM
I'm curious how he seems to feel about you. Is there love there, or is it just a friendship? Is it even that? Is it like, if you would just go along with what I want to do, I'd love you to death and make sure you get whatever I can give you?
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 04/02/09 03:10 PM
Originally Posted by OH
I admire your willingness to do whatever it takes to improve your marriage. I wish I had that inner strength.

And I look forward to when you get consistent giving yourself credit where credit is due! (((OH)))


Quote
I'm trying my best to improve my 50% according to MB principles but there's a part of me that thinks H is just hanging around 'til something better comes along and because he'd rather not/can't afford to be by himself right now and he wants to be near the kids. And that as soon as his situation changes, he'll be out. And that's not acceptable to me. I know now that he's capable of incredible degrees of lying and lying by omission and that's not comforting in the least. At times my mindset is 'dump him before he dumps you'.

OH, it makes a lot of sense to think that. But at the same time, it's a DJ, and you don't want to hurt yourself like that. BEcause what you do to others, you do to yourself. How about, "I don't know why he's here, and I don't have the trust in him today to accept his answer if I ask him. But I'll share my concerns anyway. Because my goal is to get to know hiom better."


Quote
I will choose divorce over the alcohol issue though if it comes to that.

That was a very sore spot for me, leaving someone who may have an illness they have no control over. My grandpa stuck by my grandma when she got Alzheimer's and got very ornery towards him at times the last few years. She didn't recognize him, and she hated that what she thought was some strange guy was in her house and didn't leave. She kept telling him her husband was going to get him when he got home. I was tough. And if my DH is an alcoholic and not just a problem drinker, then he would have no more control over his compulsion to drink than my grandma had control of being able to recognize her husband that she was waiting for to come home. But there are lots of women who divorce their H's and still care for them when it's time later in life, so that alone I don't think is a reason to stay in the meantime while he's fully functional.


Originally Posted by cat
I'm curious how he seems to feel about you. Is there love there, or is it just a friendship? Is it even that? Is it like, if you would just go along with what I want to do, I'd love you to death and make sure you get whatever I can give you?

We're getting along really well. UA time, SF, all that. He says he does love me and that this is just who he is and I need to accept that. I have tried to clarify that I do love him for who he is, and that I'm not asking him for more effort, just that we work together, and he says that we are doing that. So I stopped repeating myself, because that's disrespectful.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 04/03/09 01:15 AM
OMG Cat H was away for three weeks but now he's back one day and it's loud and clear why this has to be temporary for now. We started out well, nice dinner together and all.

I think I've mentioned my mom has severe chronic health issues. Last year, I was talking to DH about how I felt bad that I can't really help her with that in any way. He had a really nice idea. He has built up a lot of FF miles with his work travel, and he offered that I could book my mom a trip to go visit one of my brothers and his wife out West. I let her know, but she didn't get enough time off from work to go. So this year, a few months ago, she told me she is taking time off at Easter, and can I book a flight for the two of us. I would love to go, but DD7's birthday falls that weekend, so I had to decline. H said to go ahead and book her the flight with his FF miles, but he dragged his feet on giving me his FF numbers. He picked me up at work today to take me to lunch, and I asked him for the numbers since they would be in his wallet, and I wrote them down.

But then tonight, after dinner, and I'm sitting down telling him what I'm finding, he's all mad and snapping and yelling. He says, "I don't know about this". That's great that he's identifying what's bugging him and sharing it out loud, but NOW TODAY after saying it was okay all along and my mom and brother are excited he loses his enthusiasm. He ripped up the paper with the FF numbers because I wasn't quiet enough in the ohone planning with my mom. It's in his wallet, so I got them and emailed them to myself. I know my priority is my DH over my mom and brother, but I am so frustrated that it's like this today.

Then tomorrow he'll say he's sorry and to book the trip. Too late. I already feel like I am fighting the depression falling down over me. I know there are good times too but nothing is worth living with this anger. I do have a lot more compassion than I ever did, for myself and for H. No one wants to feel so unheard like that. I am so glad to know today that life doesn't have to stay like this for me.
Posted By: jayne241 Re: Letting go - 04/03/09 04:29 AM
{{{{{ ears }}}}}

When you describe how things are going pretty good and y'all are getting along... I keep hoping... but you seem the most peaceful when you are most convinced that the best thing to do is a separation.

Not that you need to convince me, but I kept wishing something better for you.

Earlier today I almost posted asking you if your feeling of peace came from being in a state of withdrawal, or close to becoming a WAW - except you are being H&O that you are considering a separation.

I wonder if him "giving permission" after the deadline is passive aggressive? Do you get that on top of the other stuff? And you needing to be quiet on the phone with your mom, making those plans... I'm so sorry, I thought y'all were past such things. Had he been drinking?

So how does he feel about a separation nowadays? If he takes this job, does he know you plan to stay behind? Sorry if that's already been answered.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 04/03/09 12:46 PM
WAW? Ouch! Maybe there's a kinder way to say that? I saw a WAW more as someone who DJs that their H isn't capable of having a loving marriage. I don't assume that with H. I do ask my DH for what I need, just not in the heat of the moment. We had what started out as a nice conversation where I owned my half this morning. That I felt triggered to an old place where I wished I would vansih to prevent myself harm, and how I caught that and replaced it with a boundary, taking a little space in the house. I asked for what I would like, to discuss these concerns respectfully. And then let go of the response.
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Letting go - 04/03/09 01:03 PM
Was his response not what you'd hoped for?

What's WAW?
Posted By: jayne241 Re: Letting go - 04/03/09 01:07 PM
Ears, I didn't mean that as an insult at all! I didn't realize that the term WAW was so emotionally charged for you. You've told me you thought I was on the verge of being a WAW before. Is that what you meant? Maybe I've got the wrong idea of what it means, but I thought it just meant a wife who was tired of trying to make her marriage better and stopped trying, was in withdrawal and left the marriage without there being an OP. Without any warning - and I said that was the difference, that you are telling your H.

Did I miss a post? I thought the new thread's title meant you are preparing to separate from your H. Especially with this job offer I figured if he takes it that you will not follow, and the separation wouldn't be just geography.
Posted By: catperson Re: Letting go - 04/03/09 01:09 PM
WAW = walkaway wife

I don't see it as a negative; more like a place of decision. Of strength, so to speak, because you're not caught in a web.

I can't help but put my own filter on you, that I look at life without H and just see...peace.

With your H, I also for some reason see another possibility. I see him with wanderlust, based on FOO, that drives his need to look for jobs elsewhere. Kind of like the old hobos. And I see a possibility that, once he gets to try it, get it out of his system, he may realize it wasn't as great as he thought, and come back, hat in hand.

What do you think?
Posted By: jayne241 Re: Letting go - 04/03/09 01:11 PM
WAW = Walk Away Wife

There's an article on this site I think, about men who were totally blindsided when their wives left them. I think the gist is, after years of arguing and fighting, there was finally peace in the home and the husbands thought things were going better than ever... because their wives just gave up and stopped arguing. Stopped trying.

If you watch the TV show "Brothers and Sisters" I think Callista Flockheart's character (did I get her name right? The actrress who played Ally McBeal) is about to walk away from her marriage.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 04/03/09 02:20 PM
Um yeah, jayne, pretty emotionally charged termed for me. My Dad walked out on us when I was 10 and my brother 8. Honestly if I saw it was realistic to think that H and I both had the willingness to do this, even if not today, then I would stay and fight and fight and fight and not let up. Like Stella sinks her teeth into something. I admire so much how she fought and fought and didn't let up and didn't lose hope and now she's got a marraige they both are so happy in. And it just kept fitting the two of them more and more over time, that's the real test.

And jayne I admire that about H too that he picked high goals and reached them and contues setting the bar higher for himself at work and keeps exceeding their expectations. He's gotten a permanent offer with every last one of the companies he's done sonsulting worjk for, even though if he's accepted they'd have a huge price to pay to the consulting coampany that they wouldn't pay for someone they hired out of the hundreds of resumes they get. I admire how he even when he's exhausted he spends quality time with his kids and is so close with them. And he gets even better and better as a father as we get these MB Concepts in our lives. He doesn't read here or the books, but just that one hour with Steve and me sharing what I'm doing. He calls the kids almost every morning and every night now when he's away.

But jayne there's a time when it just looks like it's not realistic or repsectful to keep fighting and keep hoping for something that only one person wants. One thing about all that listen and repeat, like Plan A, it really brings light to what someone does want.

He told me this week that I just have to face reality that I have to go with him wherever he gets hired. So while I do think that it's great that he's involving me in the fact finding process, I don't feel part of the decision process. I understand this is my perspective.
Posted By: catperson Re: Letting go - 04/03/09 02:22 PM
That's not just your perspective. That's your awareness that he thinks his needs trump yours. Grrr.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 04/03/09 03:00 PM
Originally Posted by jayne
I thought the new thread's title meant you are preparing to separate from your H. Especially with this job offer I figured if he takes it that you will not follow, and the separation wouldn't be just geography.

Jayne, I am preparing. I don't think that it is likely that I would follow, like drag the kids somewhere separated, but I am trying to keep an open mind and get the information. And no, the separation wouldn't just be geography, and coming back home weekends together. I can see how that wasn't so clear. I get confused and have to clarify for myself sometimes.

Originally Posted by cat
I can't help but put my own filter on you, that I look at life without H and just see...peace.
Me, too. I was afraid for a long time that it would be overwhelming the way it was when the kids were little and it was just me and them for extended periods in the past. But we're really thriving now both when he's here and when he's away. That give me a pang of guilt, too, though, because if I was stronger then and did this when they were little, the transition may have been easier. Our home was rented out because of all the moving we were doing and the girls and I shared an apartment with a friend while H was away, and sharing the responsibilities for the combined kids with her made it much much easier. I've heard Stella suggest this solution, and it was a great one. But if I carried through then, we wouldn't have had all this time and growth and experiences together, either.

And I think you're right, that the new locations thing may lose its appeal. And that was there with FOO, too, constantly moving. it resolves a lot of conflicts with friends and family who aren't friends of the marriage.

And there was a trigger there, last night. He had changed his mind about sharing those frequent flyer miles, and I hadn't thought to ask him that. I just assumed the offer was still open. It totally makes sense if someone's working, they would feel very free giving away things they earned, and then would feel like holding on to what they have when that circumstance changes. And he reminded me this morning that my stepfather made a joke at H's expense over the phone to my mom last year, and we heard my mom's deflect it with a little sarcasm, instead of saying something like "I don't like when you make jokes at his expense like that."

My mom did ask last month if it was still an open offer, and that would have been a great signal to me to check in with H first. I still have some IB left there, assuming instead of asking, and I can see how that would be a trigger. We spoke this morning, and he is in no way enthusiastic, but he is "okay with it. He made a promise, and he's carrying through." I don't think we were going to be able to get to POJA in the bad leftover feelings this morning, so I'll try again this weekend. I hope there are still flights left.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 04/03/09 03:25 PM
Oh and jayne, no he wasn't drinking last night, and that may or may not make it more difficult. He made a point to tell me he wasn't drinking most nights when he was out of town this last time, too, because he was working so late. I am doing a lot lot better at not counting and not asking and even not wondering, but the damage had been done there already where I used to take it very personally.

I sent him an email about I do not want to gain at his expense over this and offering to let my stepfather know I don't like what he says to my family members about H. I had a fear about doing that while DH was away but now that he's back I wouldn't feel as much at a safety risk. I called H and asked him to read the email, and he said, no, no, he's not happy about my family ticket or no ticket but he has no problem about me getting my mom the ticket.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 04/04/09 09:30 PM
H told me this week that his two brothers don't know why he's still with me and that I don't deserve him. His brother called while H was in the shower getting ready to go out with them, and we spent a few minutes catching up. Would it have been inappropriate to say, and oh by the way, I didn't understand what you meant about not knowing why your brother is still with me. Would you please clarify that for me? Because I've been nothing but kind to all of you. I didn't, but I almost did.
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Letting go - 04/04/09 11:11 PM
That really sucks Ears. Wonder if his brothers have some sort of animosity towards you for something they perceive you did, or do you think your H has been telling them stuff not necessarily true?

Better to hold your tongue though, I do agree.

H told me that his mom told him that he doesn't deserve me! And he said that pissed him off because I was turning his family against him.

So you can't win either way.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 04/05/09 01:42 AM
OH, I don't know if it's stuff that I did. The only incident the brother had his W talk to me about was one time when DD8 was a baby that I made an excuse to leave his home with the kids early on Easter when there was a situation, not about my family, that they felt confident they already had under control. So it may be more about what H says. Maybe I should've clarified with the brother after all. I asked him why and he said because I don't let H drink. When that brother was the one who told me that I needed to get H help. I've got to stop giving this stuff focus.

Anyhow, speaking of situations that I would like to consider under of control, I have a good friend who leaves her daughter with us when she feels unsafe. But now I haven't been able to reach her for several hours, and another friend called nervous she can't reach her, either. I'm hoping her cell died and she fell asleep early.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 04/05/09 02:35 AM
I just hear from my friend, glad she's safe smile
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 12/29/09 03:33 AM
A cautious update. H got a short term consulting position, starting next week! His job search had been heating up for a few weeks now, so I'm so glad this firmed up! And it's local, and it gets him back into his long-time specialty that he'd fallen out of practice with.

Christmas Eve, H told me he understood how unhappy I was, and he was okay with going ahead with the separation I asked for in January, instead of waiting until he gets a permanent job offer. But, he said, he thinks since I'm the one who wants the separation, then I should be the one to move out. That if I wanted a divorce instead of separation, then he would be willing to move out, because then he would buy a place, but he doesn't want to rent some little thing, when he wants the kids 50%. I understand why all this makes sense to him, but I disagree.

I shared my O&H. I don't intend to be the one to move out. I want to give the kids the continuity of staying in the house with them. I've taken care of the kids by myself for extended lengths of time while he traveled, so I know I can do this. We agree to meet with an attorney to put a separation agreement together.

The next morning, H tells me that he changed his mind. That it would cost 10,000 to separate, I'm not sure how he figures this, but he thinks we should wait until he gets a permanent offer. But he sees that I've made changes, and he's going to make some changes, too. When have I heard this before? That he sees he has some of his brother in him, the condescending attitude, and he's going to work on it. I tell him I understand wanting to wait until getting a permanent offer, but I still plan to put a separation agreement together this week, before he starts work and gets busy. He agreed. And his attitude went back to his old happy self immediately.

I feel so relieved, that the end feels so near.
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Letting go - 12/29/09 06:21 PM
NED,

You don't know if he'll make changes or not.

You can choose to believe this is more wishfulness. Mind your part, what is solely yours and leave off what adds to your hurt.

I'm a tad confused about the separation agreement boundary hinging on a permanent offer. I was of the mind that was if he had a permanent offer out of town? Most likely my holey memory.

smile

Okay, so you've had a long time this year with this goal in place...and more together time, please correct me if I'm wrong, than you've had previously...when he wasn't working. Was his perception correct on Christmas Eve? Have you been more unhappy with more time spent together?

Was his realization about his condescension new to you? Or had he forgotten that for himself? (It happens.)

Where is your relief coming from in you?

LA
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 12/30/09 03:52 AM
LA, you're right, I don't know if he'll make changes or not, and I can enjoy the peace and respite we have today instead of projecting. I don't think your memory is holey, at one point he was only willing to separate if he took an out-of-town offer and I didn't go. But he said later he was willing to go through with separation once he gets a permanent offer.

We've had a lot more time spent together, and it's helped us understand each other better and get along a lot better than we ever have before. But as much as I work towards loving detachment, Separate and Equal, halve the withdrawals, his choice of judgment and condescending attitude at times, like Christmas Eve, still wear me down at those times.

Quote
Was his realization about his condescension new to you? Or had he forgotten that for himself? (It happens.)

I don't remember him owning this villager before. I was grateful he shared that moment with me.

My relief comes from the breathing room his salary will bring. When he is self-supporting, even if he is unwilling to go through with separation, I can make it happen and in good conscience know he'll be comfortable financially. If the tables were turned, I would hope that he'd have waited until I was self-supporting.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 12/30/09 04:24 AM
When he had said that about making changes, I let that sink in, and then shared with him, from the heart, that I think our issues are beyond what he and I could solve, or we would have resolved them already. H said something like, "we'll see." It's kind of sad to me, because folks work through this stuff together all the time. In my own life, I know three couples who got the outside help they needed this year, and are back to thriving. For crying out loud, H and I had gotten to points where we were thriving before. I know it can be done. It's like, it's not enough to let go, to accept it once and for all time, and the hope dissipates and stops haunting me. Being together, sharing the good moments, too, the hope stays, and I have to keep choosing to step back from the expectations, again and again. When part of me would want to just sink back in. Does any of this make sense?
Posted By: catperson Re: Letting go - 12/30/09 07:49 AM
Hi Ned, I hadn't seen your posts until now (can't sleep). I wish I had a magic pill for you, but I just don't. I can say that I totally get the condescending attitude, and how much it wears at you. In fact, I was just thinking about this tonight, in my situation. It can be oh, so intangible...so much that if you tried to explain it to anyone, they'd think you're nuts. I kept track the last couple days, and found half a dozen instances of what appear to be (I know, I know) my H reacting to me in a 'there she goes again' way. I don't know how much is me projecting my self-dislike onto him. But the sense is still there. All I can say is that communication seems like the only tool for that (not that I am using it, lol) - opening their eyes, as you seem to be able to do somewhat. I wish you luck, no matter the outcome.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 12/30/09 02:01 PM
Oh, cat, I don't mean to sound glum or something. Life is better and better. I hear you that it can feel intangible, but there is a lot that is obvious, once I started to see it. The verbal jabs, eye rolls and interrupting as if I wasn't even talking. I have tools today, like you said, about sharing my O&H, and I feel heard, even when it isn't acknowledged out loud. I understand that it's not about me.
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Letting go - 12/30/09 03:06 PM
I was reading these last few posts thinking first to myself "well why doesn't she just really work the MB program, encourage her husband to do the same...seems as though they might really have a chance for success".

But then I realized that you seem to have reached that point that has been outlined by others on this board, including yourself. You have made an accurate assessment of your life and how it will most likely play out with him..even with MB improvements (if any) and you have decided that this is not the way you want to live it out. You want other things in life that you realize you will never get from this marriage.

Am I even close to being on target with that?
Posted By: Telly Re: Letting go - 12/30/09 03:27 PM
Hi Ned,

I'm sorry that it's come to this, but I think you've worked awfully hard on yourself, and I believe that your peace can transcend any outcome here.

(((New Every Day))))
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Letting go - 12/30/09 04:52 PM
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
We've had a lot more time spent together, and it's helped us understand each other better and get along a lot better than we ever have before. But as much as I work towards loving detachment, Separate and Equal, halve the withdrawals, his choice of judgment and condescending attitude at times, like Christmas Eve, still wear me down at those times.

::snip:::

My relief comes from the breathing room his salary will bring. When he is self-supporting, even if he is unwilling to go through with separation, I can make it happen and in good conscience know he'll be comfortable financially. If the tables were turned, I would hope that he'd have waited until I was self-supporting.

What I hear in the first paragraph quoted above..."But as much as I mind my part, he screws up on his."

Gets better, then worse, then best, then...worst? Christmas Eve as worse than ever?

I'm not mitigating here...no sides...just asking you if you truly have the expectation that your marriage (which has gotten to thriving, then not so much, to not often, to not at all...and back again) will stay thriving without him reverting at times to former harmful behaviors and reactivity?

And you may have addressed this expectation right in the face before and tossed it out, not what you want...consider that our oldest wishes creep back in...

to get it right and it will stay right...happily ever after comes AFTER major crisis...if we overcome, we're home free...

Doesn't mean you even know you have it...

And you may not...

Or maybe it's you, more highly aware, of the slow slide down from thriving...which only means you both are still learning how to exist, love and forgive, repair and thrive anyway, daily.

Next level stuff...same poles, different view. He owned something new...and you appreciated it...and his owning it didn't change everything...didn't solve the big puzzle...change your perception...even if it was the very thing two years ago you thought he would never admit to...and you're here...and he sees...and knows...doesn't mean he'll change and stay changed. Every word spoken since he shared his realization which wasn't condescending, mocking or snarky is change.

I think the holidays are so tough because our very old expectations come out to play...ones we keep away from our minds, think they are long gone (same as we thought last year)...and they are higher or deeper, less real or bearing reality.

Had your H said what he did on September 13th, instead of Christmas Eve (and I haven't looked it up yet, if you wrote about it on another thread), would you feel differently?

I don't have the scope here...what I experienced was our marriage changing from daily to weekly to monthly to quarterly to annual to bi-annual LBs (and it was way more erratic than that as you know)...I have the expectation we will harm one another with our old verbal reactions...and that doesn't stop us from thriving...as long as we hold to amending right then and there...and funnily enough, that's what my DH's latest LB is...saying he doesn't know how to apologize...he's back to where to say you're sorry is a cop out...just a way for bad people to let themselves off the hook to keep doing bad things...

We're re-doing again...and undoing...what are truly core issues...life-long, not me making or him making me...doesn't mean he didn't get it or get to it...

And I catch myself expecting him to get it and keep it...even as I lose it, act out my anger/frustration (and justify), against my code...and him not amending exempts me from my own code...

lol...

Within seconds this transpires...and holidays have colds and the flu, FOO and lots of seasonal conflict...

Retread kicked up my contribution list on CWMI's thread...am I reacting to just this statement/demand/comment right now from my spouse, with whom I haven't had to enforce my boundaries for three months because he hasn't crossed them (boundary atrophy for me)...and then he does...or am I reacting to FOO stuff in there, my hidden expectations, deeper ones I stopped culling for because, hey, my marriage got great...who needs to keep digging!

I caught my pockets full of pebbles and stones I'd been hoarding, NED...had to empty them out, tell DH about each one (without justifying)...and reveal I'd expected more of myself...and most were not about him, his behavior...most were me making him part of something out of my control at work or in our family...without telling him I was doing that.

PORH...hard for me to see when I'm not doing it...the lies by omission creep in (justify not rocking the boat, not sharing, inserting my eggshells again...blah blah blah).

So getting to a new level of thriving still kicks in my "coast" mode...don't look it's perfect...and old perfectionism in me is the culprit. I stop calling him on his little stuff...and seek relief away from him...justifying, justifying, knowing I'm justifying, and then justify my justifying.

So his mockery, condescension on Christmas Eve (my DH) also caught my stuff in it, too. Doesn't excuse...gets me back to my stuff...and my expectation he wouldn't do it again...and he doesn't regularly, and him doing it again doesn't mean he's doing it regularly again (he stopped it by the next day)...and yet I was shocked, again, he didn't use the tool of amends...me, looking at him, not me, my stuff...

At times...some times...not always or never...events don't wear down...when we feel it's the cumulative violation, we gotta check ourselves first. We're doing the accumulation.

And his sideways permission question/statement about separating with a short-term offer...his opinion right then...not a renegotiation from both of you, no POJA...seems old to me. A pattern resurfacing...re-injuring.

My thoughts...what's different for us in our marriage is that separation as next to final boundary enforcement...we aren't even close...and the stress of that alone would keep us swirling, I think...that your has been separation for some time...as you both changed your dance, the goal didn't change...maybe accelerating the "what's the use, really" sneaky permission/expectation whispering through two minds in one union...

And you coming to accept what you don't believe...without DJ...like that he'll stick to changes (and increase your skills we seemingly change back...knowing we really don't)...as just your part...and doesn't dishonor the marriage or your H...isn't permanent...doesn't change how you treat him, how intimate you are with him, your choices...

no wearing down in that...building confidence that we will pick up the tool we need, which is at hand, right there (and sometimes like keys you can't find three inches from their usual place)...even after we refuse to pick it up.

No wearing down...and breathing, anyway.

I'm with you, NED.

LA
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 12/30/09 11:02 PM
Wow, you know, I don't think I could ask for a better group of friends, jayne, cat, LA, Telly, OH. This reality bringing thing we do here, making sense together of the most confusing pieces of our lives, gaining perspective, in a safe place, you are all part of that, for me, with what you share from your lives.

Originally Posted by OH
I was reading these last few posts thinking first to myself "well why doesn't she just really work the MB program, encourage her husband to do the same...seems as though they might really have a chance for success".

But then I realized that you seem to have reached that point that has been outlined by others on this board, including yourself. You have made an accurate assessment of your life and how it will most likely play out with him..even with MB improvements (if any) and you have decided that this is not the way you want to live it out. You want other things in life that you realize you will never get from this marriage.

I think I am working the MB program, and encourage my H. I listen, and share my O&H, try things differently. H and I took a date night, Saturday. I can see how seeking separation doesn't look on the outside like it fits with that. Like that saying, "I can do for 12 hours what would appall me if I had to keep it up for a lifetime." I even enjoy the 12 hours, the date nights, the intimacy, our time together.

Though I do have my guesses, I can't really know what would happen if I stayed while I continue to work on my half. I have reasons for my reservations, but I know that there are folks who have overcome these things, working together, with outside accountability.

Telly, thanks for the hugs! I agree, I'm grateful for the level of peace we've worked for regardless of the outcome.

LA, sorry! I didn't mean it like that, that I work hard, and then he messes it up. I'm with you, there's an ebb and flow, unrealistic to think there won't be rough days. And rough days aren't what mean, time to throw in the towel. I'm sorry I came off like that. I have slips, he has slips. And often we share our O&H, own our parts, and make amends, and move forward. We have thriving at times, and the kids get to see that, too, us working together, and I appreciate that as the miracle it is.

I understand about expectations around the holidays. I don't remember the exact circumstances, but I remember catching myself with that last week, and how cool to remember we have choices today. And yes, I totally am on board with you on the having to pull the rocks out of my pockets, too, when I remember my goal isn't to "not rock the boat" anymore, it's to keep that net clean, as another poster quoted in cwmi's thread.

Originally Posted by LA
My thoughts...what's different for us in our marriage is that separation as next to final boundary enforcement...we aren't even close...and the stress of that alone would keep us swirling, I think...that your has been separation for some time...as you both changed your dance, the goal didn't change...maybe accelerating the "what's the use, really" sneaky permission/expectation whispering through two minds in one union...

Thanks for sharing this with me, LA. I got to my next to final boundary enforcement September before last, but didn't give myself permission to go through with separation then, because of this financial issue and hoping that I can do this with H on board. So my mindset was not, if one more shoe falls, then I'm out. It was as soon as this work situation irons itself out, then we can do this. I don't want this marriage as is, the one where there is no Rule of Protection in place to protect me.

When I waver, I ask myself, is this what I want for my kids, for them to see that this is acceptable? And it's not, to me. My mom told me about how important to respect myself, and that a husband and a wife respect each other. But her behavior didn't match that. She let my dad and stepfather LB her, didn't protect herself or us kids. I don't want my kids to be confused that way, hearing me say one thing, but continuing to accept unacceptable behavior.

I hear you about the stress of this impending keeping us swirling, and that makes sense. I don't have a good answer for that. Any suggestions?
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 12/31/09 01:53 PM
H this morning he said when he tells people we are separating, they ask him why, and he says he doesn't know, it's just Ears. Because we don't fight anymore. So he asked me, why a separation, do I want perfection from life? Because nothing's perfect? Good thing he asked the morning after my meeting, so I didn't feel exasperated that he asked me again, when I thought I've been clear, sent emails, and so on. Whatever the reason, it wasn't clear, and like cat says, the answer is communication. So I told him, I don't like that when I have a concern, there are times he views my perspective at the problem, instead of working with me to find solutions we both like.

He asked, like what? I said, like his drinking and driving. I shared my O&H, that nights like last night, when he met his buddy for dinner and pitchers, I am concerned, what if he hurts someone, or himself, on the drive home? He shared his perspective, that everyone does things that are damaging, like folks who are overweight like me get health problems. Life isn't going to be perfect. Got it, thanks for sharing. At least today we can share our POVs respectfully.

I get it that his actions alone don't have the power to upset me, that what upsets me is my own expectations. Last week, he walked to the bar, but this week the place they went was out of walking range. Not my actions to own. Maybe next week the answer will be a different one, who knows? And what upsets me is what I don't share. That it hurts me that the kids see this, as if it's acceptable. I've got to let it go, to live life on life's terms. Like H says, there are things they learn from me that aren't so great either. And that's the part I can work on.
Posted By: Soolee Re: Letting go - 12/31/09 02:04 PM
Ears...whenever I see your subject line, I can see Carrie Underwood singing "Jesus take the wheel..."

Not sure that helps you any, but hang in there, my friend. ((Ears))
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 12/31/09 08:17 PM
Thanks, Soolee, I love that song, and that visual!
Posted By: catperson Re: Letting go - 01/01/10 12:23 AM
It sounds like he doesn't want to separate, am I right?

Would you keep him if he stopped drinking?
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 01/01/10 03:50 AM
He doesn't want to separate. The question about if he stopped drinking is hard to answer. He has stopped drinking for spurts and even longer terms before. If he chose to get outside accountability, I think that would make a difference to me. I am trying to keep an open mind. My path looks obvious to me today, and if a different path was called for, I think I could expect that to be obvious, too, not a subtle change. H has two siblings that went to AA only after their marriages dissolved beyond repair. I'm not like some hardened witch or something, I'm at a lot more risk of erring on the side of jumping back in to soon than I would be to err on the side of being overly cautious.
Posted By: jayne241 Re: Letting go - 01/01/10 04:22 AM
*hugs*

Happy New Year, Ears! May 2010 bring you clarity and peace and happiness.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 01/01/10 08:17 PM
Thanks, Jayne, Happy New Year to you, too smile
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Letting go - 01/01/10 09:35 PM
NED, I would advise STARTING A NEW YEAR WITHOUT THE ALCOHOLIC HUSBAND!

Get your courage up and GO! Live a wonderful and fulfilling life MINUS THE ALCOHOLIC MILLSTONE!
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 01/01/10 09:57 PM
Bubbles, that's what I love about this place, that it gets me thinking, are my actions reflecting my values, today? I can tell you, this week posting, I've been way more O&H, and it feels great! I don't feel afraid that H won't be okay financially if I move forward now. He's flush with savings, and he'll be okay. The kids and I will be okay. Those fears don't fit today anymore.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Letting go - 01/01/10 10:10 PM
I feel happy you are coming to some healthy conclusions.

I say also: When you decide YOUR life and the LIVES of your children ARE MORE IMPORTANT than enabling this alcoholic....

THEN, YOU WILL LEAVE HIM!

I feel like you have all the tools you need to leave him NOW. You do not need to support him financially or in any other way. In fact, supporting an alcoholic is never good for them. They need to work, support themselves emotionally and financially and in every other way. Or else they will not grow, change, or learn new heatlhy behaviors.

DO YOU WANT TO BE THE CAUSE OF YOUR HUSBAND NOT BECOMING HEALTHY?????
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 01/01/10 11:28 PM
HI Stella, this is someone who always worked, until last year, it took a lot of folks more time than usual to find a job in this economy, The good news is, he does have a consulting assignment, starting Monday, in his specialty. And it even turned out to be something local smile And it's just a matter of time before he finds something permanent.

I like how it's described in that When To Call It Quits article. A separation, and then living apart while the changes are established. Because there's that natural draw to call the problems OVER too soon.

I can't believe that we were able to do this "relationship talk" thing this last week, to really open up and understand each other, even when we don't agree.

The part I disagree, though, Stella, is about being the cause of my H not becoming healthy. I like the 3 C's I learned in Alanon - I didn't Cause it, can't Control it, can't Cure it. Just like if someone had a medical illness, it's between them and their doctor what they will to do to get back to health.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Letting go - 01/01/10 11:42 PM
Thanks for teaching me about the THREE C'S!

I never realized that. True, so true.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 01/07/10 05:17 AM
jayne, is this what you mean on the taxes thing? Your H wants to do the taxes, and he wants certain forms from you, and he's making a thoughtful request instead of an SD. Which is great, but you're still not enthusiastic. So y'all aren't LBing each other, but you aren't at the solution you both like yet, either? Maybe still in the brainstorming phase?

Or was it just an example, not something you *are* brainstorming today. Especially seeing as how it's only January wink

It would've been better to ask you on your thread, huh?
Posted By: jayne241 Re: Letting go - 01/07/10 05:54 AM
lol It's your thread, if you wanna T'J your own thread to talk about me, go ahead! smile

Somewhere on someone else's thread, I mention it as an example of how it does *not* make sense to label something an LB just because you don't like it.

For example: I hate paperwork. My H is already getting together the papers to submit our taxes, and has started asking me for such. I could label that an LB. But what good would that do me? Would it even be fair? I don't think so.

I may not like that activity of H's, but I shouldn't label it an LB. If I truly don't want to participate in doing the taxes (taking this to a ridiculous extreme) then we could POJA something - maybe I would have to admit it is necessary and so I could become enthusiastic about it if he would make his requests at a time when I'm not busy doing something else, for instance.

The other day (you'll understand this, others may not) I was doing the Tools stuff: watching the video, listening to the podcast and doing the reading. I had already been interrupted several times by the kids. My little anal retentive self compelled me to start over every time I was interrupted. It had been a couple of hours and I was still working on a 10 minute video and 8 minute podcast (approximate times IIRC). That was when H came in to let me know he figures we should get a sizable refund this year. YAY for DH! So I asked if we would get the refund sooner if he filed early and he said yes. I think asked if he was working on filing early, and he said yes. DOUBLE YAY for DH!!!

At which point he started talking about the papers he needed me to find... which led to me starting to stress about several things from work... which led me to stress about needing a table... and hence the whole screwing-nuts-and-bolting thread... and then all of a sudden I realized this had become a big enough interruption that I was gonna feel compelled to start at the beginning of the video *again*...

So I could claim he LBed, maybe classified under AH.

But it would be more fair, more accurate, and better for my M (and my financial health, and my freedom from imprisonment...) to appreciate the good that DH does; and maybe share that I'm now feeling frustrated and stressed when I was trying to have a quiet time; and then go walk the dog.

So, this was just an example, not something I was brainstorming. DH is wonderful for what he's doing with the paperwork, and I thank my lucky stars that (a) he's willing to do it so I don't have to (or at least I only have to provide minimum paperwork), and (b) he hasn't left me yet over my lack of organizational skills.

Instead of seeming to pick apart someone else's actions, I used an example from my own life, showing an ill-advised approach I was cautioning against, vs. a better approach.
Posted By: Happy2CU Re: Letting go - 01/07/10 06:57 AM
This is where I think that POJA can sometimes be taken as an AH on both sides. Say it's like this, dh always wants to file early and get the money from the tax return. You want to wait until the deadline because its a pain in the rear to gather all the paperwork.

For the record, I'm the early filer and dh is often late. Drives me a little buggy at times.
Posted By: jayne241 Re: Letting go - 01/07/10 07:39 AM
It isn't that I *want* to file late...

... it's just that it's sooooooo haaaarrrrddddd to find all those papers!

One time I went... 5 years I think it was... without filing taxes.

Granted, they owed me money, not the other way around, so they hadn't come after me yet...

But it was gonna be so veeeerrryyy complicated... including two different countries of residence and income... Way more than my feeble little brain could handle...

That was about the time I met then-future DH. Just in time for him to save me from prison!

hurray hurray hurray
Posted By: jayne241 Re: Letting go - 01/07/10 08:09 AM
P.S. - I just remember, on some thread - prolly not my own cus I don't think I've posted there lately! - someone asked about the possibility of my IBing and signing us up for an MB weekend.

I was gonna reply by linking to that article where Dr. Harley tells about him buying a marriage improvement program and taking it home to his W. It backfired. smile

Nope, an IB is an IB is an IB, even if it's to do an MB-sanctioned activity. Just like an SD is an SD is an SD, even if the demand is to do some MB activity.

Those things should be Thoughtful Requests, Respectful Negotiations, POJA, etc.

IOW:

Even MB can be an LB if it's an IB. Or an SD.

That's kinda catchy:

Even MB can be an LB if it's an IB. lol
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 01/07/10 01:53 PM
Jayne, Happy, that's an interesting idea, that someone could choose to view a thoughtful request, towards a goal the two folks share (staying out of jail LOL), as an AH or an LB. I think this can be one of the easier things to find some balance on. "A gentle answer turns away wrath, but a harsh words stirs up anger." Proverbs 15:1 Like our kids, for example, can ask us for dozens of things a day, yet we're happy to do it for them smile
Posted By: jayne241 Re: Letting go - 01/07/10 03:06 PM
One would think that... but once someone labels something as an LB, I often see them make that their "line in the sand" even if the LB isn't of the AO or SD type.
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Letting go - 01/07/10 03:47 PM
So, Jayne...I saw you propositioning on MB...

laugh

Great job.

And of course, I wanted to add to your perfect posts...

When we identify our spouse's LBs...we first need to check each one for our part...for WHY they are LBs...our responsibility to know...and sometimes, we find out, because they hit our base fears...from mother, father, siblings...that if he does this, then he means that...and it's over...or I'm unloved...or used...or unworthy.

Whatever it is...take your interruptions. Could you do the belief trail with it?

You're working from home and home keeps interrupting. You set yourself to accomplish a task (the video only, for simplicity)...and you put your work hat on (along with the personality, focus, self-psyching desire, etc...whole 'nother kettle of stuff, eh?)...but you're not really at work, to the rest of the visible world, and it's just a video, and others come in to get your attention away.

Okay...when you have to repeat tasks, do you feel failure...any crosswires going on...if you had to re-read paragraphs in school three times, then you're an idiot--if you had to be told new information more than once, you're stupid...anything of those things going on?

Still struggle with success/failure (which is such a sneaky all or nothing, btw)...inside your own head? Like eliminating DJs, eliminating the measuring which flourished in DJs and when those are removed, is actually found to be a cause, not just an affect? So the interrupting, not respecting space, isn't the real LB...you're hitting deeper ones in you...

Just messing around here...find your own trail before declaring what's the LB for you. For instance, if you stated to everyone, "Jayner's time...I'm going to need one solid hour to accomplish something important to me, without interruption. And after that hour, I want to have an hour of hubby time...followed by an hour of twins time. How can I get what I want?"

Big Jayner's smile...asking for the family/spouse input...not a demand...a game of respect...

Declaring what you want, how long you want it for, and then holding yourself to it (so you don't get that hour and then think of something you needed done and break and tell the boys or hubby)...

isn't taboo or bad...it's radical honesty.

Btw, one of mine is the all or nothing when DH doesn't answer his cell phone. Not reasonable...has my part in it..."Doesn't care about, want to talk to me, I'm a pain in the tushie, such a drag, I'd ignore me, too." Instead of taking a dollop out of my LoveBank when he doesn't answer, I swipe a gallon that way.

Doesn't change him not answering takes the dollop...is an LB. And I remind four times a year and he gets better at it and worse. His own cycle, not really about me...

And I think when we make our LBs without our part, then we are making them from fear, not love, so we are asking our spouses to manage our fear levels...instead of thrive.

NED...so what's the separation plan in detail? I would love to know...

LA
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Letting go - 01/07/10 04:04 PM
Jayne, I know the difficulty of finding tax paperwork. I finally found a solution. I have a box, like the size of a "ream of paper box" (you could get a larger box too) and I keep it in the closet all year. Then, when any kind of bill, reciept, or tax paperwork or insurance paper comes into the home, anything I can deduct, I place it immediately in the TAX BOX. By the end of the year, everything is in there.

It makes it a lot easier at tax time.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 01/07/10 05:38 PM
LA, I loved what you said, about looking at our side, how can we brainstorm something new, stop adding to that dollop.

H and I have an appointment to go to the lawyer's office the 22nd, to put the separation agreement together. I would like lots of time with the kids and a stable schedule for them, to stay in the house, and a set amount monthly. Okay, what I really would like is for H to call the Harleys, so I keep reminding myself to let go of others' choices and stop thinking I could know better than them what's best for them, to remember the only life I am to run is my own. H would like 50-50 custody, and I think I would be willing to give that a shot. He feels entitled to the house, because I am the one acting to separate. If we can't work something out on the house, I can live with that, too. I'll let you know when we get to POJA on the plan.

H has been true to his word, about making real effort to replace his condescending actions towards me. We've done this before, too. I know it's something folks overcome every day. So I have had a few moments of second-guessing myself, am I acting too soon? So I pray on it, asking for an open heart.

And like you talked about, minding my own boundaries, too, to keep from turning dollops into gallons myself. I still catch myself doing that, too, that automatic DJ, "He didn't answer because he thinks I'm a buzz-kill.""He cancelled our date because he hates me." This is so universal that FlyLady addresses this in her first week of babysteps, I even think it's like Day 2, to catch your self-talk, and ask the negatives if they're true. They're often not.

If I ask H later, maybe he was on the phone already when I called, and the person on the phone needed his attention, while he knew I was okay, would catch up later. And he cancelled the date because he felt alone with no team member, and was so angry he didn't heel like going on a date. DD13 had an essay due next month to compete for a scholarship to a private school here. He asked her to do it Saturday, and asked me to remind her, and she didn't get it done and I hadn't seen to it that she finished. So he felt that if we'd gone on date night, that we wouldn't understand that this was a big let down for him. About communicating, not about hating. So, where to from there? We apologized, and made amends by getting it done that evening. I shared my O&H about feeling disappointed, let it go, and didn't stew up a pot of resentment.
Posted By: catperson Re: Letting go - 01/07/10 05:41 PM
{{{NED}}}
Posted By: CWMI Re: Letting go - 01/07/10 05:50 PM
Ned, have you thought about your own integrity? Did you agree to remind your D about the assignment and then you fell down on the follow through, and what that says about your own integrity?

I'm not saying you don't have it.

I'm reading a book now called The Speed of Trust, and this is one of the things it talks about, about holding yourself accountable for your own commitments, about being strong on follow-through or else others won't trust you. And you won't be able to trust yourself.

Better to say, "no can do," than to make a commitment you do not intend to or will not keep. At least then you are seen as trustworthy.
Posted By: jayne241 Re: Letting go - 01/07/10 05:59 PM
Originally Posted by Bubbles4U
Jayne, I know the difficulty of finding tax paperwork. I finally found a solution. I have a box, like the size of a "ream of paper box" (you could get a larger box too) and I keep it in the closet all year. Then, when any kind of bill, reciept, or tax paperwork or insurance paper comes into the home, anything I can deduct, I place it immediately in the TAX BOX. By the end of the year, everything is in there.

It makes it a lot easier at tax time.

I've tried several systems: a box for paid bills, receipts, etc., a box/folder for tax stuff... nothing works because H doesn't want to follow any plan I try, doesn't want to hear about my suggestion for organizing, and doesn't want to tell me his idea for organizing. Whenever I try to get organized, he comes along behind me and mixes up the stacks/boxes/categories.

For example, when I had a box for important documents like tax forms and paid bills, H used that box for junk mail and *unpaid* bills without telling me. The first I found out about it was when bill collectors called! Since the bills weren't in the "unpaid bill" stack, I figured H had paid them.

BUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!

See what is happening here????? See what this is turning into?????? Nowhere did I say I was trying to brainstorm to solve a problem. In fact I said the OPPOSITE.

I expressed gratitude for H for doing the paperwork. Which is the ONLY solution that works for him, since he doesn't want to communicate about filing systems. It bothers me tremendously to have everything who-knows-where, and the task is too monumental for me to get it done in one sitting before H can come along and rearrange things. So it's best if I completely put it out of my mind.

BUT NOW PPL ARE THINKING I NEED OR WANT SUGGESTIONS TO FIX A PROBLEM THAT WASN'T A PROBLEM UNTIL PPL STARTED SUGGESTING SOLUTIONS!!!!!!!

*SEE* why I don't post about my stuff???

*SEE* why I identify with HL who kept saying her post was not about a problem between her and her H?

ETA: ok, I see all the following posts were about NED. Yes please, let's get this thread back to Ned!!!

*HUGS*
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 01/07/10 06:00 PM
cwmi, I totally get you. For a while there, I took on more than I could chew, but that's not the case in the present, hasn't been the case for some time. I say what I mean and mean what I say. H had her start, then she took a break, and I thought that was okay, she could finish it in the evening, while H and I were gone. I was thinking, she's a "last minute" kind of person, and would concentrate in the evening. I hadn't thought to check that assumption with him. When he shared what upset him, I apologized and promptly made amends, and I think he's okay with me now.

I looked up that book, and I like Covey's books, and it has been something that was a thorn in my side in the past, so I'll pick it up.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 01/07/10 06:07 PM
Jayne, please don't look at this if the idea still hurts your head.
Jayne, hon, I asked if you wanted to brainstorm on it or not, and you didn't say that you didn't want to talk about it. It's confusing to me that something can bother you tremendously and not be a problem at the same time. Maybe it's like a "first things first," it's not that it's not a problem, just that it doesn't make the list for today?
Posted By: jayne241 Re: Letting go - 01/07/10 06:09 PM
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And like you talked about, minding my own boundaries, too, to keep from turning dollops into gallons myself. I still catch myself doing that, too, that automatic DJ, "He didn't answer because he thinks I'm a buzz-kill.""He cancelled our date because he hates me." This is so universal that FlyLady addresses this in her first week of babysteps, I even think it's like Day 2, to catch your self-talk, and ask the negatives if they're true. They're often not.

If I ask H later, maybe he was on the phone already when I called, and the person on the phone needed his attention, while he knew I was okay, would catch up later. And he cancelled the date because he felt alone with no team member, and was so angry he didn't heel like going on a date. DD13 had an essay due next month to compete for a scholarship to a private school here. He asked her to do it Saturday, and asked me to remind her, and she didn't get it done and I hadn't seen to it that she finished. So he felt that if we'd gone on date night, that we wouldn't understand that this was a big let down for him. About communicating, not about hating. So, where to from there? We apologized, and made amends by getting it done that evening. I shared my O&H about feeling disappointed, let it go, and didn't stew up a pot of resentment.

Tools also addresses the negative self-talk very early on. When you find yourself saying something negative to yourself, ask yourself if it's true. If it is true, then say to yourself that you have the power to change that about yourself if you want to. If it is not true, then say the opposite.

I also think I remember thoughts like this being addressed in cognitive behavior therapy, like in Burns's Feeling Good book.

I can't remember, are you in counseling right now? Have you tried cognitive behavior therapy? I think it's been shown to have good results. It concentrates more on actually improving the way you think *right* *now*, regardless of the past. So it is more forward-looking, more results-oriented and goal-oriented. More designed for actual results, actual improvement.

I think Tools is basically cognitive behavior stuff.
Posted By: jayne241 Re: Letting go - 01/07/10 06:44 PM
Originally Posted by NED
Jayne, hon, I asked if you wanted to brainstorm on it or not, and you didn't say that you didn't want to talk about it.

Um, I *did* say I wasn't asking to brainstorm, it is NOT a problem, it WAS an example. A *HYPOTHETICAL* example, using my own life so as to not seem to be picking on others.

Originally Posted by NED
It's confusing to me that something can bother you tremendously and not be a problem at the same time. Maybe it's like a "first things first," it's not that it's not a problem, just that it doesn't make the list for today?

Again: It's NOT A PROBLEM. It WAS an example to prove a point. A *HYPOTHETICAL* example, using my own life so as to not seem to be picking on others.

IT'S NOT A PROBLEM. It isn't that it's not on TODAY'S list - it ain't on ANY list. NOT A PROBLEM. HYPOTHETICAL EXAMPLE. HYPOTHETICAL.

Here is where you asked the question, and I answered:

Originally Posted by NED
So y'all aren't LBing each other, but you aren't at the solution you both like yet, either? Maybe still in the brainstorming phase?

Or was it just an example, not something you *are* brainstorming today.

Originally Posted by Jayne
So, this was just an example, not something I was brainstorming. DH is wonderful for what he's doing with the paperwork, and I thank my lucky stars that (a) he's willing to do it so I don't have to (or at least I only have to provide minimum paperwork), and (b) he hasn't left me yet over my lack of organizational skills.

Instead of seeming to pick apart someone else's actions, I used an example from my own life, showing an ill-advised approach I was cautioning against, vs. a better approach.

So, there is not a problem. We have an agreement, a solution, a system, a POJA.

The *problem* is when I feel pressure *from others* to do something *different* or to look for problems that aren't there.

If you look for problems and want to find problems, I guarantee you WILL find them, anywhere. No one is perfect. Do you want to look for the problems that have already been solved, to re-hash them, to bring up all the feelings of stress, resentment, etc. all over again? Do you want to continually bring up the same problems over and over in your own marriage, in your own life, without ever reaching an agreement, without ever saying "Well! That's nice! Look at the agreement we've reached! Look at the progress we've made!"

Why does the dog have to come enthusiastically, sit properly, look properly, and turn into the heel position properly, before she ever gets rewarded? Keep doing it that way and the dog will stop even coming, let alone get to the impressive flipping and heeling part. Sure, you could then get rid of the dog, saying it won't come... but wouldn't it be more fun to get to the point of having a dog that enthusiastically does a whole impressive routine?

What is *wrong* with saying "Problem solved, POJA reached, H and I ARE in agreement."?

This is what I was saying on HL's thread, and was the basis for my Proposition (2).

Why the need to keep bringing up past problems, re-hash them, look for something to pick apart, something that is still less than perfect? Why the need to try to read bad things into a post that doesn't describe a marriage problem, to keep asking a person a question like "Have you stopped beating your wife" when they have said repeatedly they are not (and were not!) beating their wife?

Because that question is a great example of the frustration of getting continually asked "So have you stopped being dishonest about this problem that I'm projecting, that you say is not a problem?" or "This thing you say is not a problem, do you really mean it's not that it's not a problem, just that it doesn't make the list for today? Because I don't believe you the first 10 times when you say it is not a problem."

For an analogy that maybe you could relate to: Would you feel stressed if I kept bringing up your decision to separate, and kept questioning it, questioning your intentions, asking you to look at it again and again no matter how many times you said you've reached a solution and are at peace with it? What if I kept bringing up reasons why I think you should reconsider your decision, and looked for reasons why I think it was wrong, and kept offering solutions that were different from the solution you've arrived at?

If I asked you those questions, would it increase your stress level? Independent of anything that your H did, I bet me asking those questions continually, and picking apart your decision, questioning it, asking you to reconsider it, telling you that there must be something wrong with it, that you just aren't looking at it today... I bet that would raise your stress level, regardless of anything your H was doing.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Letting go - 01/07/10 06:51 PM
Jayne I guess I cannot compare your marriage to mine. My husband and i each have our own tax boxes. We used to file separately but now that we file together, at the end of the year we combine our tax boxes and go for it. I only keep my own records in my own tax box. If you had to you could use a locking box and just save your tax info and reciepts.

Then, you would not blame him for losing YOUR part of the tax information. Unless he expects you to save ALL the tax info, both yours and his.

Then, some other idea may work better...
Posted By: jayne241 Re: Letting go - 01/07/10 07:06 PM
Originally Posted by Bubbles4U
If you had to you could use a locking box and just save your tax info and reciepts.

I love this idea! I think I'll make it a whole room... not a large room, mind you, remember how he is, but he *did* agree to let me have the storage room where we keep the cat litter box, for my sewing room. Maybe I should keep all the paperwork I don't want rearranged in that room.

Which brings me back to my screwy nutty problem, since I'd like to use the table we were gonna put in there...

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Then, you would not blame him for losing YOUR part of the tax information. Unless he expects you to save ALL the tax info, both yours and his.

I'm not blaming him for losing anything. HE doesn't lose things! He's wonderful like that. One of us has to be, and thankfully it's him!

And no way does he expect me to save ALL the tax info. He's WAAAAAAAAYYYYY smarter than to leave that job to me!!!!!!! he just hopes I don't lose my tax stuff between the time I get the form at work and the time I put it in his capable hands. lol

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Then, some other idea may work better...

We got it now, but thanks anyway.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Letting go - 01/07/10 07:13 PM
Ned, just fyi, the trust book is by the Original Covey's son. The Original is R. Covey, the son is M.R. Covey, who appears to be the III Stephen, and he has a son named Stephen as well, so watch for Stephen M. R. ?. Covey books in the future, lol.
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Letting go - 01/07/10 07:32 PM
NED...so you have the practicalities of the separation laid out; what you want and he has what he wants...the visualization of it. Functionality.

Which is only part. What's your goal for the separation and what's his goal?

When you set your goal...then list what you really want to result from it...highest honesty.

You want him to call Steve Harley. Okay. Put that on your list...put all your wishes there, too...what you hope for and what you don't want to happen.

Then tonight, explain to H what you're doing...figuring out your goal, your fears, your hopes, wishes, etc...and ask him to do the same. Then let that part go.

This will help you clarify for you what you're really after, what you're doing and what your stuff is...and leave in place that the Separation is real, going on the 22nd...this isn't for you to decide to separate or not...this is for you to know why you decided to and what you want most.

Keep your eyes on yourself for the list...will be a big pull for your if-onlys and what-ifs of what he did/didn't choose to come to the foreground.

smile

I can safely say one thing on your list was feeling talked down to, patronized, mocked. He's not doing that right now and you have the desire to second-guess the whole plan. Not just one thing on the list.

So the lists give balance, too. smile

Also, did you check to make sure you cleared up your internal condescension? Your inner parental voice, where you admonish, shame and guilt yourself?

Ever see the raw fear in the eyes of someone who's patronizing you? How their assumptions are all over their face, making their tone and actions totally about them, reacting to their own stuff?

Look for it...part of that loving detachment. Won't have practice now, since he stopped it. Look for it when you guys watch tv together...point out when you see a character doing it, and say, "H, do you perceive him as condescending just then?"

Checking your own stuff through the aid of your real partner.

Btw, I just re-read Day 2 on Flylady.net...two nights ago. LOL. I'm introducing YS to it. He said he doesn't listen to negative talk in his head. Said he knows it's there but doesn't pay it no mind.

yeahrightsure. ROFL

But okay...that's his for now. He's not in terrible turmoil or miserable. Maybe happiness is partially what we strive for because it dampens the negative voices? I dunno. Mine kept going, just changed course to warn me happiness was false, gonna vanish, that I was going to screw it up anyway.

Hmmm. smile

And what do you do when you catch your old comfortable DJs in reaction to H?

As for DD13's essay...he set the deadline for her...and you did remind her. That was the boundaries he set up. Don't forget DD13 is equally powerful in that equation. She is the one who didn't hold to her part...and if this was first draft deadline, not final, might be a way to renegotiate.

And to NOT go on your schedule date is saying that it's okay to cross your own boundaries...for both H and you. Instead of exampling to DDs that you "keep promises to ourselves and others, not based on feelings."

Because spending that time together, doing the 90% of life by showing up and seeing what it's like beats the dickens out of living by predictions.

And again, inherent forgiveness for being caught up in our own fears, fear of pain, fear of anger, fear of condemnation, guilting, shaming...and reacting to control what hasn't come to pass...instead of our eyes on our simple boundaries, holding ourselves to what is within our control...and calling ourselves when we end up trying to manipulate an outcome instead.

Steps, babysteps, steps and stops. NED...acknowledge his fears and do not act from them...nor your own. Go on the date, anyway. Smile, understand, repeat to confirm or clarify you really heard his stuff as his stuff. And go, anyway.

You didn't fail to get her to do her essay...you didn't fail to keep your promise to remind her (boundary of once, twice, how many times did you agree to?)...and H didn't fail, either. She didn't do it. Begin again...rough drafts, first drafts, second, set multiple deadlines...even timelines (spend one hour a day on rough draft for three days; and POJA how much interaction, talking with you and H and sis about her ideas...we teach how to self-inspire...from one sentence, a whole theme, three sequential visualizations; not over helping and not under helping...

and find out what she might fear about this private school (procrastination is fear).

Balance...commitment...and if you will stay open to seeing the ironies...God's way of signaling you how much he's at work, pulling for you, providing for you...mirroring in many ways, answering our prayers with yes's and no's.

Both answers.

Acknowledge H's fears without measurement...acknowledge he measures his stuff...his disappointment...and acknowledge his expectation versus wishfulness, desire...goal. His part, limitation...even as you acknowledge to him your own.

In it together...parenting, not parentsing...you guys really are doing it...and IMO, have always made your daughters a high, if not, top priority...and embarking on the journey of a teen-aged daughter, in da house...

oh my.

smile

Wider options, choices, NED. Don't accept just one way...listen and repeat what you're really agreeing to, similar to CWMI, and don't be afraid to ask for more or less...your agreement is as important as his, as anyone's. And say, "I like where you're going and I want to go further" or "I'm not aboard with how far you want to go with this in one day. How about <blank>"...this is a trust-building exercise...where you aren't losing sight of what your H wants, no discounting or taking it further yourself than he stated...POJA on multiple levels.

Safe to do so...before you commit. And in your lists, put "fear of him reacting to his feelings instead of acting from his promises."

His condescension, however, may have stopped for now BECAUSE he is choosing to not react to his feelings, and is acting to his promise. In that one way. Crystal clear for him...not what he wanted, anyway.

You don't know until he tells you. On your list, marriage is now your top priority, over the kids...so that you'll keep your eye on it when agreeing to and disagreeing about the kids.

Thinking you'll be "listing" to starboard (or port) for a little while.

smile

Thank you for responding to my questions, sharing your life with us.

LA
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Letting go - 01/07/10 07:40 PM
Bubbles...thank you for the two-box suggestion.

I love it. I'm implementing it right away for this year.

Thank you so much!

Jayners...you solved a problem I didn't know I had (and yes, I have it, too)...

It was all about me, not you. :P~~~~

As usual. LOL

LA
Posted By: CWMI Re: Letting go - 01/07/10 08:05 PM
fwiw, I have a spouse who does not keep records for taxes, I assume because I take care of that, and I'm of the taxanal variety who ASKS for the receipts, year-end stub, etc and keeps them myself in a folder. I don't assume he will keep that stuff for me (the tax preparer). I assume he won't, and I prepare for that.

I also fling my 1040 out the door no later than Feb 1. lol. The downside is that I've spent my refund before the majority have even filed. frown
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Letting go - 01/07/10 08:48 PM
Having to submit the FAFSA last year gave us incentive to get the taxes done super early. You can file the FAFSA as early as Jan 1 but you must have the previous years' taxes. Has no one told them that W2s aren't due to employees until Jan 31?
Posted By: jayne241 Re: Letting go - 01/07/10 09:25 PM
Ah, but my poor DH has to contend not only with keeping me from losing stuff, but also with (last year) two incomes in two different states in the U.S. plus an income in Canada, and selling one house in one U.S. state, selling another house in Canada, and buying a house in a different U.S. state. So, filing both U.S. and Canadian returns.

My head hurts just thinking about it. I am very grateful for him.
Posted By: Happy2CU Re: Letting go - 01/08/10 01:24 AM
Jayne, my brain hurts for you having to file both U.S. and Canadian taxes. I have the same problem with the Australian vs U.S. thing. One year I put my income in the wrong box on the U.S. form, and the U.S. send me a nice big check as a refund. Trouble was, I was declaring Australian income.

So, then I had to do a month's worth of phoning at inconvenient hours and fussing to get it all sorted out. And I had to give the money back! Bleh, I definitely want to hire a professional tax person this year. Plus the Aus tax year goes from July-June and not Jan-Dec. Owie, there goes my head again!

Posted By: Happy2CU Re: Letting go - 01/08/10 01:30 AM
On the answering the cell phone thing, this is a definite LB for my husband. He has a job that requires him to have his phone on him 24-7. Me not so much. I've trained most of my business contacts to get ahold of me via email.

I get a mobile phone call about twice a week, but maybe not for a week or two. So the phone is infrequently used. Plus, I don't always have my phone in my pocket. Its usually buried in a purse or a backpack somewhere.

So when dh makes one of his infrequent calls, my cell's either:

a) dead
b) has no money on it
c) buried or
d) somewhere else.

It drives him INSANE!!! I've been trying to be better lately, but it takes a real effort.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Letting go - 01/08/10 03:01 AM
NED, you tried to make it work with the old codger alcoholic. I am sorry he is so creepy to make your life and other peoples lives miserable. I hope you have strength to leave him., he is so old and so alcohol addicted that most likely he will die soon anyway.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 01/08/10 04:20 AM
Originally Posted by jayne
Instead of seeming to pick apart someone else's actions, I used an example from my own life, showing an ill-advised approach I was cautioning against, vs. a better approach.

This I remember reading now, LOL, thanks for your patience and the reminder. Good for you for finding a POJA on that! And Bubbles, thanks for the ideas! I have an accountant H who has taken care of this for quite some time now.

Originally Posted by LovingAnyway
NED...so you have the practicalities of the separation laid out; what you want and he has what he wants...the visualization of it. Functionality.

Which is only part. What's your goal for the separation and what's his goal?

My goal, LA, is to have a peaceful house. Somewhere that I look forward to going to. Thanks for giving me a safe place to talk about this. I feel like I have rebuilt most of my life from the ground up. My relationship with my kids, my FOO, my H, work. I feel fearless, confident, at ease, joyful, most of the time. And then there are the times H is in attack mode, and I feel overwhlemed, knocked to the ground by it. Like after all this, this monster, not H himself, but his anger, condescension, is still here, and I'm a deer in the headlights.

Cwmi, if you are reading, I think this may be what folks respond to so strongly in your posts, this thing that I, and I think others, have experienced earlier in life, maybe on the job, maybe from an older sibling, maybe from an overwhelmed parent. That old Villager, the snarky, laughing, mocking attitude. Like the other person was going to keep the attacks coming, and I knew they had more stamina that I did. That in the end, the other person's anger was going to "win", to push me down and humiliate me again.

It's a deer in the headlights only for a little bit now. I can manage my fears, put them back into perspective. I'm not ruled by feelings, State of Conflict, my life is not power struggle. Win-lose is just an illusion, we're exactly where we need to be, to grow in the ways we want to grow. H doesn't want this power struggle anymore, either, the man I love is in there, and that as I heard in program, just like anyone else, he "needs the most love at the point of being the least lovable." I don't need to fear this thing, my boundaries keep me safe today. I am going to mistakenly, momentarily, feel embarrassed and humiliated and less than sometimes, but I have a plan for that. I'm going to be okay, remember that I'm not less than, that I'm exactly what I was made to be, and I have a joyous life, anyway.

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You want him to call Steve Harley. Okay. Put that on your list...put all your wishes there, too...what you hope for and what you don't want to happen.

Then tonight, explain to H what you're doing...figuring out your goal, your fears, your hopes, wishes, etc...and ask him to do the same. Then let that part go.
My goal of what I really want, would be a loving life with my H and family. The whole MB deal, UA time, FC, the four rules: care, time, protection, honesty. Yes, calling Steve, getting a plan, cutting out the drinking, replacing the porn with fun together, getting a permanent job that doesn't require travel, in a place all of us would like to live. Ideally, here.

But like you warned me, some of those things are out of my 50%, so I look at reality, what I can do, what I can realistically shoot for, instead of living in fantasy of what ifs that have not happened. And it'll be a joyous life, plenty more than I could ask for, anyway. So I want to go ahead with the separation, take a year or two respite, divorce, and then move forward. I want to keep up with the things I'm enjoying, watching my kids grow, like you said, the 90% of being present. I've lost 20 pounds so far, and I'm working to continue to get to my goal.

What I don't want to happen would be to be like one of my mom's friends when I was growing up, complaining to her when we were in earshot, why can't their man see what a good thing he has. I don't want the kids to grow up seeing their mom chase their dad like a hopeless lovesick person. And to see that women need to accept being seen and treated as "less than" instead of as valuable partners.

I wouldn't want to move out, go back, and it hadn't really changed. And a little bit, I fear also making wrong choices about guys in the future I know the boundaries took more work for me to maintain when H was travelling, and this may get more intense than that. I think I'll be okay with that, though, I think the quote was something like having strong boundaries when our thoughts are weak, or something like that.

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This will help you clarify for you what you're really after, what you're doing and what your stuff is...and leave in place that the Separation is real, going on the 22nd...this isn't for you to decide to separate or not...this is for you to know why you decided to and what you want most.

Keep your eyes on yourself for the list...will be a big pull for your if-onlys and what-ifs of what he did/didn't choose to come to the foreground.

smile

Oh, man, they did sneak in there, huh!

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I can safely say one thing on your list was feeling talked down to, patronized, mocked. He's not doing that right now and you have the desire to second-guess the whole plan. Not just one thing on the list.

See, LA, it's not all-or-nothing. I can't sat that he's not doing that anymore at all. What I can say i that he's changed his intent, his permissions, and he's catching himself for the most part now.

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Also, did you check to make sure you cleared up your internal condescension? Your inner parental voice, where you admonish, shame and guilt yourself?

Yes, LA, this was a big part of Step 9 for me, making amends to those I had harmed. I put me at the top of the list. I catch myself when I'm thinking something negative about myself. And I'm "hanging with the winners," surrounding myself with others who are living a gentle life.

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Ever see the raw fear in the eyes of someone who's patronizing you? How their assumptions are all over their face, making their tone and actions totally about them, reacting to their own stuff?

Like it was yesterday grumble

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Look for it...part of that loving detachment. Won't have practice now, since he stopped it. Look for it when you guys watch tv together...point out when you see a character doing it, and say, "H, do you perceive him as condescending just then?"

I do this, not to educate, not because this is gone from my life today and I have no other place to practice. DD13 gets these attitudes, and with her it's much easier, to detach with love, to know it's hormones, not about me, not about her either, for very long. The listen and repeat you shared is great with this. I hear you think I'm powerful enough to make you.... No, I'm not that powerful. When you find the action that reflects what you do want, you'll do that, instead." And to be honest, this stuff just aggravates me. We got the kids a Wii, and a Sims game, and one character is ornery, and the girl sheriff just follows him around like a puppy dog, trying to change his mood. So he steals stuff and rejects her. And she says, "Oh, he's just lonely." Rinse and repeat. So believe you me, we did talk about that.

Checking your own stuff through the aid of your real partner.

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Btw, I just re-read Day 2 on Flylady.net...two nights ago. LOL. I'm introducing YS to it. He said he doesn't listen to negative talk in his head. Said he knows it's there but doesn't pay it no mind.

yeahrightsure. ROFL

But okay...that's his for now. He's not in terrible turmoil or miserable. Maybe happiness is partially what we strive for because it dampens the negative voices? I dunno. Mine kept going, just changed course to warn me happiness was false, gonna vanish, that I was going to screw it up anyway.

Hmmm. smile

And what do you do when you catch your old comfortable DJs in reaction to H?

I own them, and make amends. Sometimes I don't catch it right away, and he points it out.

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As for DD13's essay...he set the deadline for her...and you did remind her. That was the boundaries he set up. Don't forget DD13 is equally powerful in that equation. She is the one who didn't hold to her part...and if this was first draft deadline, not final, might be a way to renegotiate.

See, we hadn't clarified any of that. It wasn't important to me, whether it was first draft or final, done Saturday or just started, so I didn't feel the need to. But H shared, he feels like he's taking too much ownership, wants me to manage this with him, so I can do that, no problem. And like cwmi said, if it's something I didn't want, wasn't enthusiastic about, I can speak up.

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And to NOT go on your schedule date is saying that it's okay to cross your own boundaries...for both H and you. Instead of exampling to DDs that you "keep promises to ourselves and others, not based on feelings."

Because spending that time together, doing the 90% of life by showing up and seeing what it's like beats the dickens out of living by predictions.

My friend had gotten us free tickets to a riverboat cruise that usually cost $40/person, so I was excited. The kids had went with my friend when her family was in town last week, so the kids were excited. DD13 was disappointed we didn't go, tried to get us to POJA. My friend called, because we were supposed to stop by her house on the way to the boat to pick up the tickets, and she was concerned that we hadn't come and the time the boat was to leave was getting close.

But I didn't feel like I was crossing my boundaries. I was dressed and ready when H changed his mind. It wasn't my decision to own. My friend thought I should go over her house, she had another friend of ours over, but that felt to me like an escalation, so I just stayed home. Sometimes folks are no longer enthusiastic, so I thought, better to wait and take the cruise when we are both enthusiastic.

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And again, inherent forgiveness for being caught up in our own fears, fear of pain, fear of anger, fear of condemnation, guilting, shaming...and reacting to control what hasn't come to pass...instead of our eyes on our simple boundaries, holding ourselves to what is within our control...and calling ourselves when we end up trying to manipulate an outcome instead.

Steps, babysteps, steps and stops. NED...acknowledge his fears and do not act from them...nor your own. Go on the date, anyway. Smile, understand, repeat to confirm or clarify you really heard his stuff as his stuff. And go, anyway.

I like that idea. I did affirm that I was willing to go, DD13 suggested some solutions, and I did, too.

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You didn't fail to get her to do her essay...you didn't fail to keep your promise to remind her (boundary of once, twice, how many times did you agree to?)...and H didn't fail, either. She didn't do it. Begin again...rough drafts, first drafts, second, set multiple deadlines...even timelines (spend one hour a day on rough draft for three days; and POJA how much interaction, talking with you and H and sis about her ideas...we teach how to self-inspire...from one sentence, a whole theme, three sequential visualizations; not over helping and not under helping...

and find out what she might fear about this private school (procrastination is fear).

Mischoice of words, there, we didn't fail. It's done now, and beautiful. And we had fun working on it.

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Balance...commitment...and if you will stay open to seeing the ironies...God's way of signaling you how much he's at work, pulling for you, providing for you...mirroring in many ways, answering our prayers with yes's and no's.

Both answers.

Acknowledge H's fears without measurement...acknowledge he measures his stuff...his disappointment...and acknowledge his expectation versus wishfulness, desire...goal. His part, limitation...even as you acknowledge to him your own.

In it together...parenting, not parentsing...you guys really are doing it...and IMO, have always made your daughters a high, if not, top priority...and embarking on the journey of a teen-aged daughter, in da house...

oh my.

smile

Oh my indeed, LOL. So far, so good. Huge growth opportunity here.

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Wider options, choices, NED. Don't accept just one way...listen and repeat what you're really agreeing to, similar to CWMI, and don't be afraid to ask for more or less...your agreement is as important as his, as anyone's. And say, "I like where you're going and I want to go further" or "I'm not aboard with how far you want to go with this in one day. How about <blank>"...this is a trust-building exercise...where you aren't losing sight of what your H wants, no discounting or taking it further yourself than he stated...POJA on multiple levels.

I like this, LA, I know that there are solutions to these issues. And this sounds like a great one. Totally I understand about not committing to things we're not enthusiastic about. I'm really happy for this opportunity DD has.

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Safe to do so...before you commit. And in your lists, put "fear of him reacting to his feelings instead of acting from his promises."

His condescension, however, may have stopped for now BECAUSE he is choosing to not react to his feelings, and is acting to his promise. In that one way. Crystal clear for him...not what he wanted, anyway.

You don't know until he tells you. On your list, marriage is now your top priority, over the kids...so that you'll keep your eye on it when agreeing to and disagreeing about the kids.
Thanks for the reminder!

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Thinking you'll be "listing" to starboard (or port) for a little while.

smile
What did this mean?

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Thank you for responding to my questions, sharing your life with us.

Same here, LA, thanks for your calming presence.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 01/08/10 04:25 AM
Happy, I didn't have my cell on me this morning, and DD13 was calling me to ask me to pick her up from school, because she was sick! And this is one day after she gave me a beautiful essay she wrote at school abotu how there for her I was! Oh, the irony!

Bubbles, wow, I hope that I'm protecting myself and my kids from a miserable life! That's one of my main responsibilities. I know it's hard to see someone else miserable. I got to tell you, Bubbles, I do feel pretty happy with my life, and this will be just another step in that direction.

Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Letting go - 01/08/10 03:26 PM
Thank you for posts about not answering cell phone calls...soothed me.

smile

Neddy, as for "listing"...a lame joke...I've heard it as a nautical description, when you see a boat leaning right or left...

For clarification - the boat ride was for all for of you?

LA
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 01/08/10 11:10 PM
The kids went on the boat ride the day after Christmas with my friend and her family, who were visiting from out of town. They had girls the same age as my girls. H didn't want to go, because it's pricey, and we were already paying for the kids, so he asked me if I'd go to the movies that night instead, so we did that, took a date night. Everyone who went raved about the cruise, so my friend redoubled her efforts to find the passes she had, so H and I could go last weekend, have that experience they'd shared the week before. I wish everyone had friends of the marriage like that.

I like that picturre, listing to one side. Have you ever heard the "Cupid shuffle"? The girls and I were dancing last night, my neighbors' daughter, too. H came home, and I didn't sit down, embarassed, afraid of criticism, I kept dancing. I'm happy I didn't project, because there wasn't any criticism. I love these moments, feeling free together smile
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Letting go - 01/10/10 08:27 PM
I'm going to look up the Cupid Shuffle. Sounds fun.

Keep dancing. Kudos on the non-projection and being good with the choices you make, Neddy. Great awareness on your own stuff (embarrassed, afraid of criticism, bringing on the mockery)...and knowing he didn't do that.

Notice the absence as well as the presence...you're doing great.

LA
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 01/10/10 10:47 PM
I you tubed it, here's what I found

Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 01/20/10 11:55 PM
We have our meeting with the lawyer Friday, to put together the separation agreement. I'm glad that he is on board with this, but he's having some second thoughts, too. H has said a few times, no marriage is ever perfect, you're looking for something that doesn't exist. And how about when you did ABC and I overlooked that.

I'd put together a Plan B a year ago, and revised it last month month, when it was rougher between us, and got some feedback. I was planning to give it to H later, when he was leaving. But somehow he still sounds like I'm nuts to want to separate, so I thought, I can't control his response or get him to agree that I make sense, but here I have a letter that I think is pretty clear.

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H, I have always loved you. I had a dream when we got together that we would have a peaceful, loving family. And I got to see that dream grow in many ways. We have two wonderful kids and a welcoming home.

I want to be happy *with you* way way more than I would want to be happy *without you*. Our kids would do better with us together, and I think as far as you and I go, we are better off with each other than trying to start over. I *want* to feel loved by you again, H. We had it before, and I believe that we could have it again. I�m not going to keep chasing you, though, and pretend as if that changes anything, because it doesn�t, it never has. Me trying on my own to *be happy* as you say has only left me happy with my own self. The other thing is that when I do something that upsets you, H, the way you lash out at me, instead of calmly letting me know, utterly crushes me.

I want more than that from my marriage, H. I want to be happy with you, too. I want a marriage that makes me feel loved and cherished and protected, too. You know what it�s like, H, to have a spouse and life partner who treasures you so much that they tell you every day, with loving words and with affection, how special you are to them. I want that experience, too, to feel loved, wanted, and special. I�m a good person, H, just like you are, and I�m done trying to make do with less.

I get it that my actions have contributed to the downward turn that our marriage has taken, too. I am willing to do the work with you to fix this, to create a marriage that makes both of us happy.

I need you to stand up and take the lead, H, to show me in action that I matter to you. To call a counselor and be honest with them, that your wife likes you but doesn't want the same marriage you had. That you need help learning how we can both be happy and in love again. Folks come back from this all the time, with a stronger marriage than they ever had before. You and I had talked to Steve from Marriage Builders last year, for example, he walks folks back from these situations every day.

I've loved you since I met you, H, and I always will. I just hope that you will decide that our life together is worth doing the hard work to find out what we can do so that we can grow old together.

Love always,
NED

I felt a relief when I hit Send. The phone calls stopped. I put it all out there, nothing left to try to say better or differently or if I just try harder or something different.
Posted By: catperson Re: Letting go - 01/21/10 12:11 AM
Love it.
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Letting go - 01/22/10 05:35 PM
Ned,

Let us know how you do today. You missed removing one name, btw, in your previous post (even after you edited to remove another occurrence).

I don't see the way back, if this is your Plan B. I see him seeking out a counselor...not for how long, how many sessions...more specific paving stones, I guess. I know you sent it.

I know that when he said you do ABC and he overlooks that is the moment to say with fervor..."Oh, DH...that's just it. Overlooking isn't working through, negotiating or amending. Overlooking is part of why I do not feel cherished."

smile

Mind twister, that one.

He has a very valid point, Ned. You cannot have a marriage without LBs...they are going to happen...once a year...twice a year...once every five years...it's what you do as a team when they do happen, what's the repair, and if once a year is unendurable or not...or once a day, a week...find the goals, Ned. Clarity...

Does this mean you will have an intermediary, go very dark, until what? When? What boundary enforcement number are you on right now?

LA
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 01/23/10 02:40 AM
Today went really well. The lawyer said they see just one spouse. I was surprised, because my friend had one lawyer to review the paperwork for both of them. But it worked out for the best. I had a private space to ask all my questions.

LA, I understand what you're saying that, I wasn't specific about the path back. And I know when we really want something, so much we can taste it, that it's very clear what that looks like. I have had this letter for some time, have made some revisions over time. At one point, I wanted to ask H to work a 12 step program with a sponsor. So the drinking wouldn't get in the way of our lives anymore. But who knows? That's always been the pattern, if just this one thing changed, then it would all be okay. What do I know? Why lay out some plan, some steps to walk, if I'm not sure anymore I can still go back?

Maybe I've reached a point of no return, or maybe that's just what folks brains tell themselves in these situations, as a protective mechanism. I've heard others say what they need is space, and I know how false that rings in my ears when I've heard folks say that. So I wouldn't say such a hurtful thing thing to him.

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I know that when he said you do ABC and he overlooks that is the moment to say with fervor..."Oh, DH...that's just it. Overlooking isn't working through, negotiating or amending. Overlooking is part of why I do not feel cherished."

This I can do, LA, thanks.

That makes sense, that LBs, happen, it's how we handle it. How we handle it, is that I'm despised again. It feels oppressive. Even Christmas Day, I asked H not to put me down in front of my family when we went to my brother's house, and he did. And I said, H, you promised me not to do this today, we talked about it this morning. And he rolled his eyes, laughed me off. When he knows how much I want to make amends for all the spew my family saw from us before, by being kind to each other when we're with them now. I've got to remember, I can only control my own behavior, and let his stuff go.

I am not planning on an intermediary, in the When To Call It Quits newsletter, it suggests an intermediary in cases of infidelity, but that one is not needed is some other cases. I'm not today planning on going very dark, but I'll keep an open mind. I was thinking more along the lines of letting it die a natural death. I picture it as we'd have less and less to discuss together, until we can coordinate the kids mostly through email or something like that.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 01/23/10 03:19 AM
LA, do you know what I keep coming back to? At one point, your H told you, he knew his path back to happiness was with you. That makes so much sense. I believed that in my life for a long time, that my path back to happiness was with my H. Believed to my core. And now, I think that I have learned what I was meant to from that, done what I was to do there, and now I can keep moving on this path, but no longer holding onto this relationship. I hope that makes sense.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 01/23/10 04:45 AM
LA, I also meant "kept" coming back to. The way that thought rippled in me, so true I felt it in my bones, gave me a lot of strength to keep fighting for my marriage, for years. Thanks for sharing that with me when you did. I think I was supposed to fight for my marriage as long and as hard as I did.

I talked to my mom this afternoon. I'd waited, because I had feared that she'd see me as a failure. She never says a bad word about H, so I wondered if she would think I was making a huge mistake, the way my Dad had told me last year. I was so wrong. She is really proud of me. She admires H how close he is with the kids, but she didn't want to see me living like that, taking on criticism the way I did. She told me today that she'd never thought that I would be able to do this.
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Letting go - 01/28/10 05:29 PM
I'd love an update, Neddy...

I thought your ultimate goal was to know you'd done everything possible for your marriage, and after you'd done that, you could leave with a clean slate...and I saw you take the time, kept coming back, working it, and succeeding in transforming the marriage...putting in a lot of time before your H chose to really start, and so, he just couldn't catch up.

Rather, didn't.

I don't agree with the marriage fading away...that's wishfulness, not awareness. If your goal is the same as I thought, then timely deadlines...end points...I think need to be put into place. O&H doesn't stop being your boundary...no longer to meet an EN in your marriage...to be who you really are.

And I'd like you to make another goal of not taking on criticism, as your mother said, the way you did. I think you knew you were capable of separating, ending your marriage, and chose not to all these years.

I think your mother was projecting. Just my opinion. We do that.

smile
Originally Posted by neweveryday
And I said, H, you promised me not to do this today, we talked about it this morning. And he rolled his eyes, laughed me off.

Just wanted to ask you...you know you'd asked H to not do something he had in the past, and he agreed not to do it. Then he did it. Do you believe you spoke to him like a partner? Did you really know he knew how important it was to you? Because he did. And what he did had nothing to do with you...and affected you greatly.

In a way, we set ourselves up...we do everything to try to control an outcome, to have a different outcome...and we see the results the same and despair. I think you've gotten to the end of the process, where it's time you choose your results and let go the outcome.

And I think it was the final LB for your H to do. I think him doing that got to your last boundary. I think you've had to shut out some love deposits since then...reliving that remark...made over a month ago...several times...as proof you were right to do what did, keep your promise and separate.

And that's okay...being aware of what you're doing, why you're doing it, how it ripples is your responsibility, inherently. 24/7. Doesn't stop. What you want to remember is how you acted like a mother to him when he did what you had forbidden him to do. Came from deep core hurt in you...I think your words came from the belief that he still doesn't get how important, how much he hurts you with his choices.

That's your disbelief you haven't broken yourself free of.

He knew. He did it anyway. His own self-destruction, self-sabotage was at work...about him, from his own stuff. Not you, Neddy. His self-sabotage harms the marriage...his remark attacked the marriage again. His half is anchored to his choices...so when he goes to strike at himself, the marriage hurts.

How you doing with the emotional separation?

LA
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 01/29/10 02:05 PM
Originally Posted by LovingAnyway
I thought your ultimate goal was to know you'd done everything possible for your marriage, and after you'd done that, you could leave with a clean slate

Yes, LA, this was, is my goal. I was afraid of "leaving a day before the miracle." It helped me being here, learning through posters like Seabird and dkd that I'm just one person, that if I make a misstep, that if it was a day indeed a day before the miracle, that the growth happens, anyway, and that it's obvious in a huge way.

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...and I saw you take the time, kept coming back, working it, and succeeding in transforming the marriage...putting in a lot of time before your H chose to really start, and so, he just couldn't catch up.

Rather, didn't.

I think it came down to, we had different values. Some of the changes H likes, too, like the UA and FC time, and others, he still dislikes very much, like POJA, feels stifling to him. Dr. Harley explains that many folks think that way at first, and addresses how POJA protects both people.

I don't think of it as he didn't catch up. He is making significant growth in areas that are important to him. He's taking care of his health in new ways, like exercising and going to physical therapy for his arthritis. If he chose POJA as his goal, he may do great with that, too.

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I don't agree with the marriage fading away...that's wishfulness, not awareness. If your goal is the same as I thought, then timely deadlines...end points...I think need to be put into place. O&H doesn't stop being your boundary...no longer to meet an EN in your marriage...to be who you really are.

It felt wishful as I typed it, recognize that this is a response that it's time to let go of, too. Boundaries without actions are just that, wishes. Like you had touched on in your last post, what boundary enforcement number am I on, what am I willing to enforce. So I am thinking this through. I had been concerned about finances if I moved on this now. Talking to the lawyer, seeing it on paper, reinforces to me that H would still be in good shape without my income. He has significant savings built back up, and he'll be earning these three months, January to March, half of what I'll make this year. And there would be a ton of options, including me helping out, if the situation changed for him.

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And I'd like you to make another goal of not taking on criticism, as your mother said, the way you did. I think you knew you were capable of separating, ending your marriage, and chose not to all these years.

I agree here, LA, that it wasn't that I was ever unable. My goal was to do what was in my power to recover our marriage. She may have been projecting. I know in that moment that I felt myself in her shoes, doing for myself and my kids what she had tried to do for us years ago. She had tried to leave, twice, from a physically abusive marriage, but didn't have the support that we have today, with four young kids to try to care for, watching out behind her back when she left work.

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Just wanted to ask you...you know you'd asked H to not do something he had in the past, and he agreed not to do it. Then he did it. Do you believe you spoke to him like a partner? Did you really know he knew how important it was to you? Because he did. And what he did had nothing to do with you...and affected you greatly.

In a way, we set ourselves up...we do everything to try to control an outcome, to have a different outcome...and we see the results the same and despair. I think you've gotten to the end of the process, where it's time you choose your results and let go the outcome.

When we talked, my goal was to partner, not to parent, or control, but I see where I lost that. Thanksgiving with the extended family was so healing to me, we had a kind, gentle day, and I felt so validated, that maybe we can do this, work as partners together.

And then Christmas, it was a small thing, really, I had slammed my thumb in a car door a few weeks before, and I was showing my sister that it was healing, the nail hadn't fallen off. And then H laughs, is she still talking about that thing?! She even went to the doctor, and they said "You didn't have to come here for this." It wasn't even true, I went to the doctor, and they sent me to a specialist, and they x-rayed it, it was only a small fracture, only needed a splint, and drained the swelling from under the nail. I know my family doesn't see me as a hysterical hypochondriac, and that H doesn't see me that way, either, he may have thought it would be a funny remark to make.

But it touched a deep scar in me, because my stepfather used to do that, discredit me piece by piece, laughing, on good days, so that I was afraid to go to my mom when I had serious concerns.


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And I think it was the final LB for your H to do. I think him doing that got to your last boundary. I think you've had to shut out some love deposits since then...reliving that remark...made over a month ago...several times...as proof you were right to do what did, keep your promise and separate.

And that's okay...being aware of what you're doing, why you're doing it, how it ripples is your responsibility, inherently. 24/7. Doesn't stop. What you want to remember is how you acted like a mother to him when he did what you had forbidden him to do.

I hear you, I would have liked for my new programming to catch me in that moment, "ouch" and move on. And it usually does.

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Came from deep core hurt in you...I think your words came from the belief that he still doesn't get how important, how much he hurts you with his choices.

That's your disbelief you haven't broken yourself free of.

He knew. He did it anyway. His own self-destruction, self-sabotage was at work...about him, from his own stuff. Not you, Neddy. His self-sabotage harms the marriage...his remark attacked the marriage again. His half is anchored to his choices...so when he goes to strike at himself, the marriage hurts.

LA, wow, this is hard to get my head around. The words, in order, make sense, and they fit the patterns we have, but it's hard to understand, how he says he wants this marriage, when he knows these patterns hurt. From a distance, I can see patterns of self-sabotage - fear in calling connections at the companies he's applying to, because while he did good work for these folks at other companies, they may remember other things, too. So he sticks to clean slates instead, sending the resume and not calling to follow up. The self-sabotage in walking to the bar one week, not wanting to be picked up for drinking and driving holiday week, when the police are out looking for drunk driving in full force, and then driving again the following weeks. Maybe it hits too close to home.
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Letting go - 02/01/10 09:58 PM
Ned,

I'm here...I've been pondering your reply. It strikes close to my own home. I think that's why your posts have meant so much to me over the years.

First, some clarification...are you saying his issue with POJA was the incident at Christmas, or was related to that? Since you'd both supposedly agreed to not do what he did that one day? Or was the incident (and I went "Ouch" too) the big LB that doesn't seem to stop...or stops for awhile and begins again?

Second, do you mean you see where his saying he wants the marriage, and where you do see more investment, him liking his changes, and then this repeat of self-sabotage which harms the marriage?

Have you guys physically separated now, have an LSA in place?

LA
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 02/02/10 03:05 AM
His issue with POJA has comes up at other times, not so much lately, but the incident to me was part of my pattern where I do still give my H my heart in small ways, and he still doesn't protect it. And then you touch on self-sabotage, and I'm wondering, wow, is that possible, that I still get some "poor me" payoff in leaving myself open to be hurt? Or am I acting reasonably to start trusting someone once they are starting to build consistency? I did have a tiny nagging worry to even mention it to him beforehand. I'm thinking some of both, that I can step out a little more, knowing I'm safe.

Yes, I mean that I see him saying he wants the marriage, I see more investment, when things are going as he would expect, and then the repeat of these things which harm the marriage. It reminds me of my own struggle I had with "living life on life's terms," and I see in it also that switch to State of Conflict, where he may want his needs met, but doesn't want to see my needs getting met.

No, LA, we're not separated today. I'm filling out the dissolution of marriage paperwork. There is no legal separation in Florida. But I discussed my plan with the attorney, to put together this agreement, non-binding while we are separated, and execute it after a year of separation. He confirmed that if we'd had an agreement that worked for us for separation, that the divorce will usually be granted with the same terms. I am thinking through what you said about time limits, I see that as an important act of self-care. Because as it stands, waiting for him to get the job offer before we separate, is dragging on and on.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 02/11/10 03:24 AM
Mini-update, H went for a free consultation with another lawyer, who strongly advised him to go straight to divorce, without separation, before he gets a permanent job offer, because he would pay less child support that way. He says since we are agreeing on the house and custody, that it could be done in 3 weeks. That route looks attractive to me, I am so ready for closure.

A small part of me wonders if I could still consider that as my Plan B, even if we were divorced. I would think so, right, because the main point of Plan B is to limit contact? Not that I am hoping that a Plan B would change his mind, but rather having been here so long, and I know it's possible, to go ahead and do right by my marriage in this.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 02/11/10 03:52 AM
Also, I saw one of H's brothers, and he told me that one afternoon he was out with H, and H had told them that he'd told me how even they told H what a b----- I was, and he wanted me to know that he stood up and told H that that was a lie, that H knew that they (he) didn't say that about me. That H was justifying something else he did because "everyone knew what a b-----" I was. BiL went on to say that all they ever saw of us together was how we get along well, and he doesn't pass judgment against me or say things like that to H about me. That he wanted me to know that wasn't true. I told him that I came to understand that the things H told me that others said about me may not be the truth, and I thank him for clarifying that with me.

I'm trying to check my intent, to see if I am just looking out for things to justify my own position, of being unwilling to continue working on it together. I don't think so. But I don't think it's healthy to replay that old scene in my head, either. H has told me over the years that this is what they and others have said about me many times over the years, not just once. And I can't really know who was honest or dishonest, I wasn't there. It feels like another blow, like another incident that makes me feel bad about myself, why did I stay part of such an unhealthy situation for so long?

Today, I can see 100 different things to do than to participate in that conversation. Maybe next time I could just cut BiL off, tell him I'm sensitive right now, can he please send it to me in an email to look at when I'm feeling stronger. Or even better, just don't pass that on to me at all. I don't understand why I am still today identifying with this "done-to" role, when I am *so* much more than that. I have a great life for myself today, with great folks who don't name-call each other.

OH, I remember what I posted to you last night, about choosing our attitudes. I tried calling a few folks on my phone list, but no answer. But I think even on my own, I can choose a better attitude.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Letting go - 02/11/10 12:57 PM
Ned, the trick, I think, in dealing with negative things that others have said about you, is knowing when to acknowledge that they have a point, and when they don't.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 02/11/10 01:20 PM
Well, this most recent thing a few months back was that H wanted a friend and his wife to come visit from out of town and stay over our house. His friend had been in and out of jail for drugs and theft, before he had a life change for the better a few years ago. I said that I wasn't comfortable the guy sleeping over here, but especially not with our girls here. My boundaries are around me and the kids, so I told H, if he has these folks come, I have a plan, I'll have the kids sleep over at a friend's house while H's friend and his wife were here. H was insulted and told them not to come at all, and I was relieved. I forgot what the retaliatory move was.

I don't think I was mistaken, but even if I was, then that's what I would be, a person who is mistaken. It wasn't that I was afraid that folks would think of me as this slur, more that I was sad that I choose to live a life where I tolerated that for so long. If someone called my H a similar word for guys, I would tell them that's not okay with me, not go to H and say, "See what a SOB you are? Even all these people say you are."

I feel alot better today. I do have a great life today, filled with kindness and gentleness.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 02/13/10 10:45 PM
H went to a second lawyer, who also recommended that he go straight to divorce, again before he gets a permanent offer, to protect his interests. We had a heart to heart, and he says that he realizes he's going to miss me. I've got to let him own his thoughts, because from here it feels manipulative, but that's not my business. Minding my business is being cognizant of what I would need, for him to seek out a counselor who would work on a plan with him (hopefully Steve). To see accountability over time. Short of that, all it is is talk with no action behind it. I'm *not* feeling guilty, and I'm not going to go there.
Posted By: jayne241 Re: Letting go - 02/14/10 12:28 AM
Quote
what I would need, for him to seek out a counselor who would work on a plan with him (hopefully Steve).

Are you telling him that? Is he absolutely clear what this would like like to you, and what you mean by "a plan"? A plan for him to stop drinking, or a plan to POJA how and when he drinks, or a plan to start meeting each others' ENs, or...?

<Does that sound snarkish? I'm asking, I'm not meaning to sound like I'm accusing you of NOT being clear. Just asking. Not sure how to reword it so it sounds less snarkish, though.>
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 02/14/10 01:16 PM
Hi, Jayne, no, I don't take you as snarkish, hon, more as asking open-ended questions. Which is why it's important to get input from others, I think, in case I miss something important. He has spoken to Steve, last December, and Steve told him about how we are responsible for whether our spouses are in love with us. We've done the ENQ and LBQ, so H has those to refer to, or he could always ask me again, because I know that stuff can change over time.

Jayne, I don't know what that plan would be. OH talks about her role in MC is as partner, not leader. It took me a long time to come to accept that. Anything I repeat to him today, after I've repeated it over and over over the years, like "I have a problem with your drinking", is going to feel like control. He still says, "You just want me to live under your thumb. I won't like live that, Ned."

It would take very little for H to get in touch with Steve. If he didn't save the emails from the counseling center from last year, that's no problem, he can google "Steve Marriage Builders", it would take him here to the site here.
Posted By: jayne241 Re: Letting go - 02/14/10 06:42 PM
Does he *know*, does he remember, that this is your request? Remember the Dave Barry type of guy - never assume the man remembers what us womenfolk asked for last year. No hints or suggestions - be very clear, leave no room for doubt or misinterpretation, and use short sentences.

When you say last December, do you mean this past December (2009) or the one before that (2008)? Definitely if it was 2008, he may not be connecting the dots, that what you were complaining about back then is the same thing as today.

Have you said, in words, since he started speaking to lawyers in the past week or two: "What would make me feel like this marriage was worth staying in, is if you would call Steve Harley of Marriage Builders"? (or insert whatever *specific* request is true)
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Letting go - 02/14/10 07:09 PM
I'm following this discussion with interest. First I want to say that no matter how it plays out, NED, I am hoping for the best for you and your family.

Second, I question myself frequently...is this the way to go...will this path get me/us where I want us to go? I am happy I took a stand and forced the issue re: counseling with Steve and perhaps it's just because our last appointment had to be postponed and we really have not yet had a "joint" session w/ Steve yet, nor gone over the EN and LBQs...that I'm feeling we are backsliding.

As with NED, which way H falls on the drinking issue is going to be a huge decision factor for me. I have to keep cautioning myself to be patient because we haven't addressed the issue under the guidance of Steve yet.

Not to make this thread about me...it isn't. But the drinking issue is very similar and I'm interested to see how NED has arrived at the place where she is.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Letting go - 02/14/10 08:08 PM
Ned, there is absolutely nothing wrong with stating, "I will not remain married to a heavy drinker." Or drinker at all, or whatever your boundary is on how much alcohol consumption is okay with you. When he says that you just want him to 'live under your thumb' say, No, I just want to be attracted to you, and when you are drinking, I am not.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 02/14/10 09:30 PM
Jayne, you are correct, this was December 2008. To answer your question specifically, he says he doesn't know what I want from him. I want him to get a counselor that he's accountable to, so he'll learn to treat me respectfully even when he thinks I deserve to be treated poorly. I'd like him to do this for like a year. I'd like him to get a permanent local job so the kids can see him. I'd like him to get an outside accountability partner for his drinking, like an AA sponsor, so his decision to drink or not drink doesn't reflect his relationship with me. And I want him to leave me alone for like a year, because living in this environment has left my nerves shot. Do you think it would make sense to rewrite my Plan B letter to include all this? Because I see a Plan B letter as like a final love letter, "I love you to this day, and I always will, we can do this, I want this, too" not "getting back together would be full of things you wouldn't like, so why bother." I have to tell you, Jayne, I do think I've said all these things over the years. I understand the Dave Barry persona, and I think it's disrespectful for me to think H doesn't know why I'm planning to separate.

OH, thanks for being here with me. I follow your thread with interest, too. I know you had good reason to put your heart back into it, and I hope you will be one of the success stories one day soon.

cwmi, I hear you, that there is nothing wrong with stating this. We had this conversation maybe a month ago. When I say, "I just want to be attracted to you, and when you are drinking, I am not," I hear what a prude I am and how he wishes I'd never started going to Alanon, that they put these ideas in my head. Which is backwards, I went to Alanon to learn healthy ways to deal with my discomfort I already had about his drinking.
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Letting go - 02/14/10 09:39 PM
Quote
When I say, "I just want to be attracted to you, and when you are drinking, I am not," I hear what a prude I am and how he wishes I'd never started going to Alanon

This is key. Per MB parameters, if one spouse is not enthusiastic, then the couple must reach an agreement where both are. My husband is talking to Steve but has not yet bought the concept of POJA. I think this is where MB can succeed or fail. If one spouse can not be brought on board, then how can any of the LBs be addressed? How can romantic love be sustained? The LB$ will constantly be draining.

Maybe that's what this is at it's base level, NED. Unwillingness to POJA on the part of your husband. Good for you for enforcing your boundaries.

I get similar statements: i.e., I'm not "fun" anymore, or don't want to have fun anymore, I never laugh, everything is a drag, Im so serious, etc.
Posted By: jayne241 Re: Letting go - 02/14/10 11:36 PM
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
I have to tell you, Jayne, I do think I've said all these things over the years. I understand the Dave Barry persona, and I think it's disrespectful for me to think H doesn't know why I'm planning to separate.

Ah yes, but then...

Quote
he says he doesn't know what I want from him.

I don't know, but I think he's being pretty clear in saying he *doesn't* know. I think it's disrespectful to NOT take his words at face value... unless there's something in the delivery, tone of voice, or something that isn't coming across through typed words.

Because he is saying, word for word, that he doesn't know.

Unless he's being sarcastic or something.




Quote
I want him to get a counselor that he's accountable to, so he'll learn to treat me respectfully even when he thinks I deserve to be treated poorly. I'd like him to do this for like a year. I'd like him to get a permanent local job so the kids can see him. I'd like him to get an outside accountability partner for his drinking, like an AA sponsor, so his decision to drink or not drink doesn't reflect his relationship with me. And I want him to leave me alone for like a year, because living in this environment has left my nerves shot.

Next time he says he doesn't know why you are leaving, or what you want, how about telling him exactly what you wrote above?

NOT assume he "should" know because you've told him in the past. Not assume he should know because you wrote it between the lines in a letter. (Actually I think those assumptions are more of a DJ than assuming he doesn't know when he says he doesn't know... KWIM?)

I'm not trying to talk you out of going through with a plan that you have decided you need. I'm just feeling sad for the guy saying he doesn't know why this is happening.

Quote
Do you think it would make sense to rewrite my Plan B letter to include all this?

Absolutely!!!

Quote
Because I see a Plan B letter as like a final love letter, "I love you to this day, and I always will, we can do this, I want this, too" not "getting back together would be full of things you wouldn't like, so why bother."

??? I don't see how you said "why bother" in the above. And I don't understand what you mean by "we can do this, I want this, too". Do you mean your PBL said "We can do this <splitting up>, I want this, too <implying he wants it>?" Or "We can do this <work things out> ..."?

IMHO, I think your PBL needs to be very very explicit. If you think you are being clear, then try to make it a couple steps even more clear. It never hurts to be even more clear than you think you need to be. It never hurts to UNDERestimate your spouse's mindreading skills. smile
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Letting go - 02/14/10 11:53 PM
NED, have you tried this...? Take a piece of parchment paper and write out what you wrote up in your post #7668 as follows:

1. I want you to get a counselor that you are accountable to, so you will learn to treat me respectfully even when you think I deserve to be treated poorly.

2. I want you to do this for a year and then evaluate.

3. I want you to get a permanent local job so the kids can see you.

4. I want you to get an outside accountability partner for your drinking problem, like an AA sponsor, so your decision to drink or not drink doesn't reflect or is affected by your relationship with me.

5. I want you to leave me alone for a year, and then reevaluate... because living in this environment has left my nerves shot.


Is this all of it or is there more?

Anyway, write this all out on an 8 by 11 sheet of paper and then give him one copy of it and hang another copy in the closet so he can look at it anytime he does not know or forgets why you are separating from him.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 02/15/10 02:33 AM
Jayne, Bubbles, I hear you both about being more specific. LA asked me that, too. What I mean about a Plan B letter is, I thought the format was like this:

I had a dream about how when we got married, how wonderful and rosy our life together would be, and it has in many ways come true

Except this one problem that is harming our marriage. I can see how my 50% contributed to this problem too.

This is what I need from you to address this problem [terms here]

Until then, I'm going to lie low. Please let me know when you are ready to work on this. I love you so much, and I want to make a wonderful life with you.

Love always,
Your spouse

What I meant is that I think if I put what I think I would need into this Plan B letter pattern, it goes from something supportive and encouraging, to something discouraging. I can see how it would make it more clear, though.
Posted By: jayne241 Re: Letting go - 02/15/10 04:22 AM
I'm not saying *don't* put the encouraging stuff in there, I'm just saying make *completely* sure you are clear about the [terms here] part... and when you think you are clear, then edit it to make it more clear... and then do that one more time.

And I wouldn't put too much of the "encouraging" stuff in there, not so much that the terms get lost or buried.

If it's too long, then it's less likely that every word will be read. Words that you agonized over, wrote and rewrote, edited and polished, will be just skimmed over.

Almost always it seems that when ppl post a PBL for folks to edit, the suggestions are to make it a lot shorter, more concise, more clear.

If you think it's clear enough for Dave Barry, then you're getting there.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 02/15/10 01:29 PM
If H decided not to do anything because he felt it was unclear how to save a marriage, after speaking to Steve himself, after hearing for years about how folks come back from this stuff every day, with help, then that's not because of a poorly worded Plan B letter. I will revise my Plan B letter, but it would be totally insane for me to think that he's going say, "Oh, *now* that I understand, I'll get right to work!" His actions are his to own, not based on how good I get my Plan B letter down. It's not because I didn't work hard enough, or long enough or was too unclear. Thanks so much jayne, Bubbles, for your posts, because I do feel sorry for H sometimes, too, but that's old programming, not new behavior. Reasoning this through with you all, I remember again that he has all the information he needs to build whatever life he wants for himself, and I have my own business to mind.

I have let go of the response. The Plan B letter, while I am giving it to him as well, is at heart a letter for *me*, to remind myself what I found acceptable and unacceptable to me, when I have weak moments.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 02/25/10 07:47 AM
I told H that I really wanted to try a separation first, not going straight to divorce, and to address his concern about being out of work, I agreed to not separate the finances during the separation. Unless something drastically changes. He's always been stable with fiances, so I'm not worried, but if anything changes, I'll have the paperwork to file. Now that we have POJA on that, he was willing to set a date, which is what I was looking for, March 31.

And I am planning to take the Plan B idea of going dark. We'll be having the kids every other week, and don't have to meet to switch. I can drop them off at school on a Monday, and H can pick them up. We can communicate through email about the kids. I am grateful to be familiar with Plan B, tools that can help folks make these transitions in ways that preserve what was left of the marriage.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Letting go - 02/25/10 01:12 PM
So is your goal to eventually save the marriage?
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 02/25/10 11:36 PM
No, I'm cutting my losses, but since I'm familiar with MB, I can do it in a way that also preserves what's left. With the drinking unaddressed, I can't say that I see Plan B working in my situation to create a willingness to restore the marriage, but I still feel better following a path that feels familiar.
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Letting go - 02/26/10 12:55 AM
I see it as preserving a parenting connection for the sake of your kids. In that context, what you are doing makes sense.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 02/27/10 05:40 PM
Hi Telly, I don't want to t/j your thread, so I came here to say, yes, I do feel so supported. I am just floating knowing that I finally have a date here. I'm feeling great about the Plan A stuff I'm still doing, and feel really confident that I'm going to be able to keep a great routine going with the kids when it's just the three of us. H and I went for a long walk this morning, with our dog, and we were like two comfortable friends, talking non-R stuff, like planning out the weekend, and about recent fun stuff going on with the kids. We were in the news yesterday!

http://cbs4.com/video/?id=92201@wfor.dayport.com

I'm the smiling lady in the purple at 00:17, and DD8 is the little girl in blue to the right of Florida Governor Charlie Christ at 00:27.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 02/27/10 10:15 PM
I really like how Dr. Harley's new book has sparked a real "Back to Basics" here on the board. I've got a lot to think about and chew on, and I can acknowledge, I still am deeply in love with my H. But at the same time, I can still recognize when I've gotten my ducks in a row, done what I needed to do with my 50%, and when it's time to go to plan B, to preserve what we had. I don't have to act hateful and resentful to someone to think through and understand when it's time to "call it quits."
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 03/06/10 05:48 AM
I know it's OT, but DD14 was offered today a half scholarship to a prestigious private high school here. She is still gathering information before she decides if she'll take it (yay DD!), but I'm super-proud and honored regardless of what she chooses. Those of you who know my story, she is really big into acting, and this school is well known here for their drama program, so that'd be a big plus for her, too.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Letting go - 03/06/10 01:59 PM
congrats to dd14! Do you have a plan for swinging the other half?
Posted By: Telly Re: Letting go - 03/06/10 02:49 PM
Hi Ned!

I don't know how I missed your post the other day.

I looked at the video--you are so pretty and sweet looking! I should have expected that. Someone I look at and think "I'd like to be her friend!" :-)

And your daughter, is she the one who kept digging? (lol)

I'm glad you are feeling supported. I really am. You should feel very proud of how hard you have worked on all of this.

((((Ned)))))
Posted By: Telly Re: Letting go - 03/06/10 02:50 PM
And congratulations to your daughter!
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 03/06/10 04:26 PM
cwmi, I didn't have a plan for the other half. Only 20 kids get this, and more than 20 kids just from DD14's public middle school went to a free preparation their math teacher offered for the test. On DD14's testing day, there were a thousand kids there for the test, and they'd had another testing day already, too. I think I've mentioned here that I was thinking already about refinancing my 15 year mortgage for a 30 year, and we owe less than a third on it, so I could "cash out" enough for one year this fall, see whether I can set aside enough for the next year, or whether I would cash out some more the other years, too.

Telly, thanks so much. Yes, she was the one still digging, not just posing for the cameras LOL. And I do feel really proud of how hard I've worked, and how far we've come as a family.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Letting go - 03/06/10 04:42 PM
Ned, I saw the video, too, and my thoughts were, "Why was she so closed up and not extending her hand to be shaken?"

Why didn't you shake his hand?
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Letting go - 03/06/10 04:45 PM
Wow NED, congrats. And I saw the video and thought it was GREAT!

No criticism here..it all looked good. And I wouldn't worry too much about plan at this point. It's nice to be aware of, of course, but these things have a way of sorting themselves out if you want them badly enough!
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 03/06/10 08:39 PM
cwmi, I had already shaken his hand, before the clip started, and he was shaking more hands. I put my hands together because I don't know how does he remember which hands he'd already shaken.

Do you mean closed up or close up?
Posted By: CWMI Re: Letting go - 03/06/10 08:45 PM
closed.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Letting go - 03/06/10 08:49 PM
Closed up in that it looked like you wanted to fall in upon yourself. You looked happy to be there, but unsure that you deserved to be there. kwim?
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 03/06/10 10:14 PM
Wow, that's interesting you saw all that! Thanks for clarifying. I've never been to a groundbreaking ceremony before, and was invited just so I can take pictures of DD8 with the shovel, and take her home after. I had an idea in my mind of like a store opening, with the mayor holding a big scissors. I had no idea to was going to be a media event, that our governor was going to be there, or that *every* last person was going to be in a suit but DD8 and I.

So when I got there, and everyone was dressed up, and I hadn't told to dress up, I did feel like a party crasher, not sure what to do. So then like all of a sudden I'm right there where the governor gets out of his car, and there's a TV camera, and I'm thinking, Oh, no, I'm going to ruin their photo, in a purple casual jacket when everyone is in their suit!

But I was a very proud fish out of water LOL
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Letting go - 03/06/10 10:18 PM
You did great, NEDDIE (I love the way Jayne uses your screen name, so I'm borrowing it. Hope you don't mind.)
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 03/07/10 05:01 AM
Thanks, OH!
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 03/20/10 04:47 PM
Hi y'all, I took a Parenting Kids in Divorce class, and they say if at all possible tell your kids about it as soon as possible and together. So they have time to adjust, and see that you two may not love each other anymore, but you both love them and are capable to look after their best interests together. H refuses to sit down with them for this talk together, even though it's 10 days and counting. He said he's not leaving, but that's alright, I am totally willing to get my own place for now. Actually if he wanted the house, I can rent or buy a condo and have a lot of money left over in this economy. And then I could get a right of first refusal if he wants to sell the house, I could buy it before it goes on the market, so that if he changes his mind, the kids can still live here. We're aiming for 50-50 custody, so they'd be here a lot either way.

Okay I got way off topic. I'm wondering, under the circumstances, if it's okay to tell the kids on my own now, so they have time to get used to the idea. DD14 knows already, but we haven't spoken to DD8 at all about this yet.
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Letting go - 03/22/10 08:09 PM
Neddie,

I don't understand about the living arrangements coming up pretty soon...what was agreed to in your separation/divorce mediation about who would live where and when?

I believe parents must have the plan before speaking with the children...we lead them...so in writing, decided long before action, we form the plan together.

Seemed to me your H and you had already done that. I think I missed the boat. And that when the agreement took effect, it would be enforceable by law?

Help me out on that before I share my opinion on when to talk to the girls, together, 'k?

LA
Posted By: markos Re: Letting go - 03/22/10 08:25 PM
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
Hi y'all, I took a Parenting Kids in Divorce class, and they say if at all possible tell your kids about it as soon as possible and together. So they have time to adjust, and see that you two may not love each other anymore, but you both love them and are capable to look after their best interests together. H refuses to sit down with them for this talk together, even though it's 10 days and counting.

In my experience, that little talk was a sham, anyway. It only took a year or so to discover, once and for all, which of my parents actually still loved me and which loved only SELF.
Posted By: markos Re: Letting go - 03/22/10 08:26 PM
Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
Hi y'all, I took a Parenting Kids in Divorce class, and they say if at all possible tell your kids about it as soon as possible and together. So they have time to adjust, and see that you two may not love each other anymore, but you both love them and are capable to look after their best interests together. H refuses to sit down with them for this talk together, even though it's 10 days and counting.

In my experience, that little talk was a sham, anyway. It only took a year or so to discover, once and for all, which of my parents actually still loved me and which loved only SELF.

One hint was that the parent who constantly disrupted summer visitation with restraining orders that kept me and my brother apart, that parent was not the one that loved me.

Sorry ... traumatic memories coming back up. smile
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Letting go - 03/22/10 09:04 PM
Oh, markos...I'm so sorry for what you had to go through going up...and wondered if that was the steel foundation for your deep commitment to your marriage?

If so, your children's grandparents gave them a great gift, inadvertently.

A lot of what we learn from our parents isn't what they thought they were teaching us...

LA
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 03/23/10 02:53 AM
Sorry, markos, to hear about that experience. I can assure you that my kids have two parents they are very close to, and who love them very much.

LA, my lawyer is waiting on me to turn in the paperwork so he can fill out the documentation for us. The piece of the paperwork I am missing is H's financial disclosure. He says he wants to see another attorney before giving me that paper to turn in. He acknowledges that he's "been dragging his feet." We have no legal separation in Florida, so my plan was to have this drawn up now, separate according to the plan, and then execute the divorce (it's called a dissolution of marriage here) in a year's time.

H said he was on board with this, but then said no, the lawyers he spoke to said he has been told he should go straight to divorce, so he wants to turn the paperwork in and then execute (file) the papers immediately. I thought on it, and I'm okay with that. He says it's for his mental health, too, and being that his father committed suicide, and his brother threatened it, if he says this is what he needs, then I'm plenty okay with it. I don't really have hope that separation would do anything for us, anyway. If I had hope that it would help us, maybe I would be less okay with filing for divorce.

You know I have been trying to keep this as amicable as I can. Maybe he is, too. I understand that it would make sense to have the legal details worked out before talking to the children. But if he's not out on the 31st, I will be, so I do think it was time to talk to the kids. And I did, and they are okay. I am going to the lawyer's office tomorrow, to prepare my backup plan, what if he doesn't fill out his piece, because it's time for me to move on with this. I've spent as much time as I was willing to trying to make plans with H and stick to them.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 03/23/10 12:02 PM
LA, I don't know if that was still unclear. In January, I told him, I have to move forward, and he said, come up with a plan. I did, that I would keep the house, and give him in return a bigger portion of the savings, and this he was on board with. He added that he wanted 50-50 custody. So I made the appointment to see the lawyer, but he needed some information from us to put the paperwork together,including our previous years' tax returns, a listing of assets and liabilities, our costs, and a parenting plan. This is a prepaid attorney, from a prepaid legal plan offered where I work. Since we were doing this amicably, my lawyer would prepare the paperwork, and out of pocket all we would have to pay for would be for H to have an attorney looking for his interests to approve the plan as well.

I went back with my forms filled out, and but the lawyer said that he also needs H's financial disclosure. I asked if I could fill it out for him, and he said no, that this is something for H himself to fill out. I didn't ask, well what if he refuses, because I didn't see that coming. H said he would fill it out, but hasn't. He acknowledged last week that he has been dragging his feet, that he will speak to a lawyer again and if they say it's okay, he will fill it out.

I will find out what the rest of my options are. But if this goes from amicable to contested, and H doesn't leave willingly, I am not going to live here while I wait for the outcome.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 03/29/10 02:59 AM
I was very excited and hopeful thinking this was coming to pass at the end of this month, but I didn't get my paperwork in in time, and my lawyer is in court until the end of next week. I went by last week, and I couldn't get an appointment until April 4th.

H last week took a temporary consulting position in Port St. Lucie, 100 miles from here, M-F, starting Monday, and will be back the weekends. This position is through the end of April, and H says to give him till them to get used to the idea of moving, that the being gone M-F will help him with this and then he will go. I was really upset and angry and disappointed, and had a hard time getting past the stewing and was thinking I could still be separated by the end of this month, by getting my own apartment, month to month, until H left. I could stay in the house with the kids M-F, and then go to the apartment on the weekends. I called a friend in Alanon, the Family Law attorney who recommended my lawyer, and he said it would be a bad move to get my own apartment. That it may look like I'm just throwing money away, and not stable.

If H and I are settling this amicably, what matters is what we agree on, not what it may look like to an impartial person. But this has been a humbling experience, and I get it that I need to watch my assumptions. I don't know whether we will be successful doing this amicably. So okay, I will wait and be patient through this process.

I'm doing okay with Plan A. Once I got past my upset, I can see that there are silver linings to this extra time together, plenty to be grateful for in today, even if it wasn't what I planned. I am grateful that we get along well, and grateful I have support that is second to none.
Posted By: jayne241 Re: Letting go - 03/29/10 04:49 AM
*hugs*

I think it is wise to not assume it will stay amicable. There's no telling how he will react if he's trying to postpone it indefinitely and you enforce boundaries he dislikes.

Yay for looking for the silver lining!

Other options... hmmm... maybe you could use this time to "ease in", to make the transition less disruptive for the kids? I really am not an expert on how best to present it to the kids, I'm just throwing some ideas out there. Perhaps something like, you could consider the weekends as his "visitation"? And you could sleep in separate bedrooms, or maybe you could go stay with a friend or something for a night or three, if you are comfortable leaving him in charge of the kids for the night.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 03/29/10 12:09 PM
I am comfortable leaving him in charge of the kids, and I do think this can make for an easier transition for the kids, something they are used to, their Dad being gone all week. One of the positive things that working MB has done for the kids is create more thoughtful routines. The last time that their Dad was traveling, late 2008 and early 2009, he started calling the house, talking to me and the kids, in the morning and evening, and when he didn't call, his phone was on so we could reach him.

I had also thought about going to stay with my brother on the weekends, not because I think it would be easier on the kids, but because I was so full of anger, that H would go for the week and then come back as he pleases. He's agreed he wants to be the one to move, why not go now? Why drag this out like this, when I've been beyond patient and fair? Again I can back up and stop crossing those boundaries, stop trying to figure out why he does what he does. The skills I learned in calmer times, I'm using my darnedest to practice here, not let this anger grab hold of me like this, take it as a signal, but then let it go. One day at a time, I'll give it a shot. Make another thoughtful request of myself.

jayne, I think you overestimate what I can do without creating resentment for myself. Maintain a beautiful home for him to enjoy on the weekends, while I go stay on my brother's or friend's couch. I'll take it as a compliment wink
Posted By: ChrisInNOVA Re: Letting go - 03/29/10 12:45 PM
I don't understand why he's dragging this out either - did I miss something?

You are handlingthis so well though. You seem so strong and so calm.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 03/29/10 01:57 PM
He says he still thinks that I'll "come to accept him as he is." He says if I just take a step back and see how much has changed, like he acts a lot more respectfully now, that I'll be willing to accept the rest, like his drinking, which isn't at a problem level for now. I understand his opinion, and I guess if he came here, he'd be given the "men, don't leave your homes!" advice, too. But I've already done an extended Plan A; I don't think more time is the answer.
Posted By: ChrisInNOVA Re: Letting go - 03/29/10 02:14 PM
So, he's doing this because he feels he's giving you time to change your mind about the Divorce. It isn't "real" for him, and you are not reacting with anger.

NED, you are handling this with grace and poise and you are an amazing woman.


Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 03/29/10 02:29 PM
Thanks, Chris, I appreciate this. There's a lot to be grateful for, every day.
Posted By: ChrisInNOVA Re: Letting go - 03/29/10 02:31 PM
NED, I need your help....I am in trouble I think. Pls see my thread "Please help me"...I don't know what to do next. I am panic-ing. Severely.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 05/02/10 03:18 PM
Time for an update. H has been working 90 minutes away during the week, coming home weekends. He's gone to go check out some rentals, but hasn't made any concrete moves yet. My lawyer has my divorce paperwork prepared, and I have the appointment to go over it with him Monday. I'll give H a copy for his attorney. He hasn't decided whether to separate before we file, or whether to just go ahead and file, but I've been honest that I'm filing this month if he's still here.

I've come to a lot of peace with this decision. I really enjoy our family time and couple time together, but I see where Plan B will be a good protection for me, to help me get both feet moving in the same direction. Help me be more objective, and a better advocate for the kids. Part of me still loves this man so much, and is so sad that this didn't work out.

I know that it's okay to set my boundary, with Rule of Protection, it's okay to decide to not settle for a marriage where my spouse was still willing to gain at my expense. So the other part of me is really hopeful, looking into a future where I'm not sure what to expect, and that's okay. Rereading the articles here helps me a lot, like the When to Call It Quits, seeing the paths that others have taken.
Posted By: JustFigureditout Re: Letting go - 05/02/10 05:08 PM
I certainly can relate to your feelings NED. I am in a similar situation in that the woman I love I TRULY DO love, but can see that the marriage we had was one in which she continued to gain at my expense and was unwilling to really address the core problems we were having. It breaks my heart to hear about your situation, in that it reminds me that we can only control ourselves, and despite what we may feel for our spouses, they have control over themselves, and will choose the way they go of their own free will.

Stay strong ears... I also get support from reading the articles. The 'When to call it quits' article gave me strength to ask my wife to move out when I caught her moving towards being unfaithful again. It was hard, but necessary. When I find myself feeling bad and begin taking the problems onto myself, I just have to remind myself that SHE was the one who chose to have the original affair. SHE was the one who chose to go on the internet. SHE was the one who chose to ignore my boys and treat them poorly. SHE was the one who chose to lie over and over again, when an "I'm sorry" would have fixed everything. SHE was the one who chose to ignore my ENs and refused to put work into our relationship, choosing to simply 'BE' rather than work. And finally, it was SHE who chose to empty the bank account, shopping spree my house, and file for divorce.

I don't say this for pity. I say this, because I feel in a somewhat kindred spirit with you. I feel your love for your husband, and I feel MY love for my wife and our girls. BUT, I can find some solace in recognizing that my feelings were not returned and neither was respect, consideration, and loyalty. All requirements for a loving relationship. This allows those 'love' feelings to be there, but my course in life to be "OK" as well.

Letting go indeed...
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 05/03/10 11:46 AM
Thanks for your post, CFIO. They exist at the same time, the knowledge I am getting about my limits, and the partnership we have created. I am grateful for this place here, where I have been able to let go also of my behaviors that were holding me back, like the LBs.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 06/05/10 05:51 AM
Quick update, because not much changes over here. I got the paperwork, H took it to his attorney, he had a few changes that were fine with me, and I got a letter a week ago from my attorney that he's been contacted by H's attorney and is awaiting these changes. It feels as slow as molasses some days, but I like the patience I'm finding.

A few weeks ago, H said he wanted it to work out between us in part because he didn't think he was ever going to find someone who loves him as much as I do. I think once the separation/divorce goes through, he can if he wants to, because I think he's a lovable guy, but it did make me feel a little appreciated that he did like how much I loved him. I kind of felt grateful, that he also acknowledged the deep love we shared; it wasn't just in my head. Kind of like "Better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all."
Posted By: jayne241 Re: Letting go - 06/05/10 06:39 AM
*hugs*

I hate that it took this to wake him up. Why can't they ever receive their wake-up call *before* we're on our way out the door? You certainly gave him enough wake-up calls.

I still would like the fairy-tale ending, of him meeting your requirements for giving it one more chance, this time with him fully on board.

And I saw a unicorn tonight.

lol No really, at the town's "First Friday" festival tonight there was a white horse dressed up like a unicorn, giving kids rides.

So I may be believing in fairy-tale endings a bit more than is realistic tonight.
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Letting go - 06/05/10 12:04 PM
What Jayne said.

Except I didn't see a unicorn.
Posted By: singingsolo Re: Letting go - 06/05/10 12:11 PM
Hi NewEveryDay; I continued to get verbal put down, LBs all over the place for years; 11 of them...IN SPITE of any "good" that I could do; it just wasn't good enough for him.it; so if you are with an abuser there may be NOTHING that we CAN do to help them see (or love themselves) and love us.
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
A few weeks ago, H said he wanted it to work out between us in part because he didn't think he was ever going to find someone who loves him as much as I do.
That may be very true; no one who will "deal with him in a forgiving way"...he should have thought of that selfish thought a little earlier...duh...sorry but that was a bit lame if I can say that...hugs. Divorce is the not the "final answer"...remarriage is always possible...praying for you.
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Letting go - 06/05/10 12:54 PM
Quote
A few weeks ago, H said he wanted it to work out between us in part because he didn't think he was ever going to find someone who loves him as much as I do.

This bugs me.

It's all about him.

If he were truly concerned with the care and protection of the marriage, wouldn't it be about you?

See, I see what he said as an entitlement thing.

I am happy that you have found your peace with this process and am convinced you are doing the right thing, if only based on statements like that.
Posted By: jayne241 Re: Letting go - 06/05/10 02:08 PM
Ah, good point, OH and SS! I totally missed the significance of that statement.

BTW what is VAH? Very annoying H?

Quote
What Jayne said.

Except I didn't see a unicorn.
rotflmao

Neddie, I'm glad you've found peace, too.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 06/06/10 01:17 PM
Jayne, hugs back to you, too. I got plenty of wake-up calls that I talked myself out of acting on, too, back from when we were first dating. There were many intermediate measures I took, but how many times did LA suggest that I consider handing him his bags, or other intermediate measures I didn't take, and I thought, wow, that makes sense, but I can't do that, I'm too scared. Why did it take me so long to set aside my fear consistently enough? Who knows. But forgiving H helps me use that forgiveness muscle, helps me forgive myself for my lack of action.

Yes, I like like that fairy-tale ending, too. It would take a lot of change on my part, too. Reading Telly's thread, I projected myself in there, how much I would want to smooth my family's way for them, and how cool it would be for me to step back instead. When I went to IC before, it was how to cope with H's IB, share my O&H, but if H and I did take a new start, I would get the targeted help to further change my own behavior, to stay connected with what I am enthusiastic about, what is special and meaningful for me in the context of family. My family doesn't need a manager in the way I've tried to do that. I'm actually thinking IC would be the way for me to go again, even after I don't have H to practice these ideas with anymore.

As an example, a good friend and her family came from out of state to visit this weekend, staying in a beautiful resort. Me, I would like to take everyone around the gorgeous part of town they are staying in, but they wanted to stay at the hotel. I felt really sad for them that while H and I took the kids down to the pool, they sat in the hotel room. But you know what? There was one of those MTV style pool parties at the pool, with the kids' favorite music, I've never seen that before, and we had a blast. And my friends are grownups, if they wanted to see the party from their room with the AC, when it was 95+ degrees outside, why would I choose to feel sad for them?! They're coming to my house today, and I still *really* want to take them to see around town, but I'm going to offer once, and then shut up about it already LOL. If they want to spend a day of their vacation at my house, I can take that as a compliment. And if *I* don't want to sit in the house, I can offer to take the kids with me and go, like we did yesterday.

SS, thanks for your post, I know it can be hard to join a long conversation, so I really appreciate you joining! VAH, is that verbally abusive husband? I know what you mean about a critical spouse, and I can see my part now, that it took someone willing to take ownership to fix all our problems myself, and I feel good about moving out of that pattern. Good for you for getting back into ministry!

OH, I hear you, that you heard something different in this quote, too. I see that, too, and I can tell you we have other moments that are not just about him, but about us, too. But of course, yes, the entitlement thing doesn't fit a healthy family.
Posted By: jayne241 Re: Letting go - 06/06/10 03:17 PM
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
As an example, a good friend and her family came from out of state to visit this weekend, staying in a beautiful resort. Me, I would like to take everyone around the gorgeous part of town they are staying in, but they wanted to stay at the hotel. I felt really sad for them that while H and I took the kids down to the pool, they sat in the hotel room.

Maybe they wanted some UA time and really appreciated your taking the kids to the pool and leaving them in the room? Maybe they were looking forward to having some great SF in the fancy hotel room? flirt
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 06/07/10 12:54 AM
Jayne, nice thought, but two moms of the other kids were up in the room with them, and my friend is having a complicated pregnancy, no SF at all allowed.

I'm getting so good at POJA! They didn't want to get out of the car much at all, being 95+ degrees outside, but they were enthusiastic about seeing the city from the car, like one of those air-conditioned bus tours. Because we didn't go inside anywhere, we got to see a lot more things, things I've never seen my whole time living here, like the oldest house in the county.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 06/13/10 02:00 AM
I got a letter in the mail, my lawyer forwarded what H's lawyer had sent him. H does not agree to separation, but instead agrees to move out within 15 days after the dissolution (what they call divorce) is granted. I felt angry at first, that he communicated this through the lawyer instead of to me directly, but I realized he has every right to do that. I asked him to look through this with me, and in retrospect I would've liked to have slept on it overnight, and talked to him tomorrow about how I felt about it. He still has a few more pieces of paperwork to get together on his side, things I can't fill out for him. I had meant to ask him, the next time this kind of talk came up, since he doesn't like the plan I proposed, what does he propose? And I was flustered and didn't. So I am planning to next time take some time to get ready, so I can ask.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 06/15/10 04:39 PM
The Love Busters thread, talking about the effect of work travel on marriages, has been really validating to me to read. It really reinforces to me specifically why an in-town job is one of the things I am requesting in my Plan B letter.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 06/23/10 11:28 AM
I felt *so* weepy for a few days, questioning my decision, and now feel back to normal again. Is this normal?
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 07/22/10 12:49 PM
Wanted to give an update. I'd had more second thoughts in June, to the point that I had a heart to heart with H about reconciling. I should have remembered that if it was time to reconcile, it would have been way more obvious. He would've found a job here, instead of turning local requests away because he was already on assignment out of town for a few more weeks, because "that's how consulting works." He would've gotten the outside accountability I'd asked him to get, for his AOs, even though they've gone away for the time being. Anyhow, I knew that, and I approached him anyway. He said that was great, we can make a new start in California. I actually considered it for a moment before being O&H and telling him that I don't want to move there, and I want to find solutions we are both happy with. His answer was, "You'll change your mind." I understand why I went to talk to him about reconciliation, because a filling Love Bank is very compelling, but I know that my marriage needs to be important enough to me for me to stop going along with things that make withdrawals for me. So, I'm back on the road to go to Plan B. Working Plan A in the meanwhile. Plan A is so much easier with a happy spouse, it's gotten a lot easier over time.

Our lawyers are still working through the paperwork. I thought we were on the same page and they'd completed the paperwork, more of that wishful thinking. With H's okay, I'm taking the kids to visit a friend out of state for a week, leaving Friday. The kids will be gone a second week. I was O&H with H, and told him that I think this would be the best time for him to move out, while the kids are gone, and while they're used to him being gone with the work travel. He said he'd consider it, and went to look for places Saturday. I'm trying not to get my hopes up too much, because I've done that before.

Part of me wishes I would've had a different update, that H and I worked it out and were madly in love again. And part of me is hugely grateful to still be letting go. I am so thankful for the tools here on the site, they really help with the clarity.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 08/11/10 10:44 PM
The lawyers are done with the paperwork, and H has an appointment with his attorney to review and sign it, and then I will meet with my attorney, review and sign. I was hoping he'd be moved out by the time the kids got back from vacation, but that's okay, however it works out will be fine. We took a family vacation last week, and got along pretty well, all things considered.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 08/27/10 11:26 AM
As an update, the paperwork is with my attorney now, I have an appointment a week from Tuesday to sign it, that I'm trying to get sooner.

L, I wanted to share, I project some of my concerns onto you. I gave until my LB was empty. Now, that we're getting paperwork ready to file, my H is making the changes I always wantd, but where my LB$ is, I've given up on "us," I'm not going to trust that they'll be lasting changes. Cause and effect. I wish that I'd separated way back, when I had a lot more love left for him, and would have been heartened more by his changes. The best I can do at this point is to continue on to Plan B and protect what little positive feelings I have left for him.
Posted By: Tawandabelle Re: Letting go - 08/27/10 01:32 PM
I am so sorry you are going through all of this, NED. My heart hurts for you. Don't worry too much about me. Sometimes my posts come across as desperate, and at that moment they are, but I try to keep my eyes on myself and the big picture most of the time.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 08/28/10 01:04 AM
Oh, no, don't hurt for me, my kids and I have a better future, one that fits us better, than we have had in a long time. I was thinking today, and since my H and I have been together, we moved at least once a year until I got here to the board. You can imagine how hard it was to provide stability for our kids in a situation like that. So right away, POJA helped us.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 08/29/10 05:53 PM
I feel like I should be posting more, because every day is like another Aha! moment for me. I am seeing more and more how my own fear has held me back, not just in my marriage. I'm not saying like all-or-nothing, that I lived in a tiny box, I'm just saying I see more and more places where I can hand over my worries in faith.

And I'm picking up more and more on how I close folks out when they share their stuff with me, not just H, when their words don't fit with how I would like to see things. What a freedom, to let that go. My daughter is going through a stretch of unbelief right now, and I'm okay, I understand that this is between her and her Higher Power, not some box that I have to make more appealing so she will be willing to get back into. I have a real sense of peace that she will have that close relationship again, when it's time, I don't have to force it.

My company I work for has been bought out, and we don't know yet how many will be laid off, and what the criteria will be to see who stays and who goes. I just last month satisfactorily finished a 90 day probation for poor performance, so I think I would be on the list of more likely to be let go. So I'm looking for other work; I've always heard it's easier to get hired when you're already working. H was really really mad at first that I'm looking locally as opposed to "somewhere he can find work." Oh my goodness, I was willing to really hear him, acknowledge his concerns, and not take them on as my own. I felt closer to him for sharing with me instead of mad that he felt that way. This MB stuff, O&H, really does work when we're willing to listen!
Posted By: CWMI Re: Letting go - 08/29/10 09:09 PM
Ned, you confuse the heck out of me. What do you mean by "What a freedom to let that go"? It sounds to me like you're saying that you don't care how you shut people out when they don't fit with how you see things. Which sounds to me like you are advocating not caring about people other than yourself.

Does your husband know you're getting divorced? Have you actually done anything toward that? From what you've posted lately, I imagine the man is rightly confused about the future.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 08/29/10 11:16 PM
Quote
And I'm picking up more and more on how I close folks out when they share their stuff with me, not just H, when their words don't fit with how I would like to see things. What a freedom, to let that go.

Wow I can see how that could easily be read as the opposite of what I meant. I'll try again.

I recognized a coping skill that I had that doesn't fit anymore. I saw myself not believing that folks meant what they said, when they said things that don't go along with what I think. For example, my job has become unstable, so I was looking for work locally. My H got mad that I was looking for local jobs. Instead of being angry that he felt that way, and trying to tell him that no, what I am doing is supposed to make sense to him, I accepted that he has every right to feel that way about it. That I don't have to try to "fix" or "own responsibility for" his feelings, because everything is fine, folks see things different ways, there is nothing to be upset about. So I actually felt closer to him, and thanked him for sharing with me, and I really meant that.

I absolutely care about other folks, especially my stbx. And I can care for him better by listening to what he is saying, than thinking that he is mistaken and I need to straighten out what he said.

I totally advocate care for a spouse in marriage. Right now, I have a foot out the door, so I don't feel a need to POJA looking for local work, when I may be out of work soon. If I thought I had more time to look for work, like if I felt reasonably sure that my job would be stable until the divorce went through, that would be different, and then I would be willing to wait before looking for work, because I'm still trying to finish off in Plan A, and part of Plan A is to *not* do things that your spouse isn't enthusiastic about.

Yes, my H does know we are getting divorced. We are still doing things together as part of an effort to stay in Plan A until I switch to plan B when H moves out. I have taken action. I got an attorney, who wrote the paperwork, but then H's attorney wound up redoing it, but that's done now. I'm just waiting for my appointment with my attorney, so I can sign it, and we can file. Then the dissolution should be granted 10 days from the filing date.

I hear you, that Plan A can also be confusing while going through the divorce process. I made the best decision I could with the information I had. I could have moved out with the kids, but I would have risked losing the house, and I wanted to stay here with the kids to give them stability. And I think an in home Plan B would be very hard, I didn't know anyone who had done a good one that I could look to for guidance. Everyone who I know who had tried it said it is difficult to execute well.

Does that make more sense?

I have some thoughts on the perogi thing if you're interested. I think "the truth" for your H is a fluid thing, and he can like something one day, and dislike it another day. And then wind up in the uncomfortable position of having to explain himself, so he gets nervous and lies, and then lies more to cover the initial lie. My DD9 is developmentally at a stage where truth and fantasy are fluid, and I see her struggle, and I tell her, "I know it's hard when you say one thing, and then remember that's not right. Do you want a do-over?" It allows her to share what is true, without feeling like she is bad or wrong. Even as an adult, I can remember things wrong, too, like put too much water in the rice, and then remember no, that's *not* how much water goes in the rice, and I have to take the extra water out.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Letting go - 08/30/10 01:16 AM
I still don't really understand how your H could have that kind of misunderstanding about where you would search for work. (good luck to you, btw) Have you reached agreement on who stays in the house? Is it you? Was he just 'reaching'?

That's funny, comparing my H to your 9yo. Funny accurate. smile
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 08/30/10 11:15 AM
Wow, CWMI, you are so on target. That is *exactly* what I was saying. That I used to get angry and frustrated because I didn't understand how my H could say these things. Like, in my mind, to me that would be like if I handed in my resignation at work, and they said, "Oh, NED, since you're not working this position now, would you be interested in this other position we have listed? It pays half what you make now." Like it's comical from a distance.

Yes, I think he was "reaching," and at the same time, I think for so many years, that I would do almost anything to get off his "hit list" (you can add an S to the beginning of that), so he thought it was worth a shot. That's exactly what he said the next day, that he wasn't going to flood me with emails again, but that he'd "had to give it a shot" the day before. This is what he considers "working on the marriage," negotiation with his Taker at the table. Which is great as long as it doesn't move from negotiation to being angry.

Yes, from the beginning of this, our plan was for me to stay in the house, with the kids. Because H doesn't have local work yet, so we didn't want the kids to have to get used to a new place while the family home sits empty.

I'm glad you liked that story about my DD, did it help you feel any closer to your H? Have you read the LB book chapter on the "stay out of trouble" lying? I'm thinking there must be some end-of-the-chapter exercise for that? My guess would be it involves you adding to a list as they happen, and share them at a neutral time like once a week, either just the two of you, or with Steve. LA recommended to me Between Parent and Child by Hiam Ginott, and it's great not just as a parenting resource, but also on how be more approachable for our spouses.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 10/15/10 10:23 PM
I have a court date for the Dissolution, Thursday the 21st. I am sad but relieved too.

I talked to a friend offline, who suggested that I consider keeping a strong Plan A, not stepping back, as I'd been doing some. So that I can make sure I get all the lessons I was to get from my marriage.

And that part, the making attempts to spend time together, was good. I'm more detached, like LA used to remind me, Separate and Equal.

last Friday was my birthday, and in the morning, I closed on my refinance. H arranged to sign his papers like an hour before the closing, so we wouldn't have to be in the room at the same time. Getting in the car alone to go, when big financial stuff we've always done together, hurt so bad I got carsick, had to stop at the side of the road, a few times, I was late. I went from renting a room in a house to getting married, had never done any of these big things without my H, walking through it together.

I know it's not all-or-nothing. I'd done things like decide where to go to school, got my first car, signed my first lease, before H, and didn't feel like, Oh, this being alone thing is so bad, I need someone watching out for me, then. After 15 years married, having two kids, taking a lot of big steps since then, I would think I'd be more confident now than I was then. I guess more practice being patient.

The last year has felt like such a relief, all the way, when I thought about not being obligated to make it work with H anymore. Like the big stamp that said "FAILURE" was washed off. So I'm not sure why at the end here, when he's still in the house part of the week, what was so sad all of a sudden that wasn't a month ago.

So taking the time to do some things together, that helped, last weekend. Kept me busy. Plan to do the same this weekend.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Letting go - 10/20/10 08:42 PM
Good luck tomorrow.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 10/21/10 10:54 PM
Thanks, CWMI. It went without incident. H is still here, but I have a friend whose daughter has a furnished place he's looking at renting. And he'll be working in town the next two weeks; I think that'll make it easier on the kids.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 11/25/10 11:52 AM
A little update, B moved out, without incident, yesterday to be exact. I guess to say I'm not really good at Plan B is an understatement. I invited him and his family over here to have Thanksgiving with my family, and some friends, the same as every year. Trying to keep things the same for the kids. Not sure what to keep, and what to toss for the time being.
Posted By: TheRoad Re: Letting go - 11/25/10 01:03 PM
"A little update, B moved out, without incident, yesterday to be exact. I guess to say I'm not really good at Plan B is an understatement. I invited him and his family over here to have Thanksgiving with my family, and some friends, the same as every year. Trying to keep things the same for the kids. Not sure what to keep, and what to toss for the time being."

Plan N

N as in nothing

"A little update, B moved out, without incident, yesterday to be exact. I guess to say I'm not really good at Plan B is an understatement. I invited ___________________ and his family over here to have Thanksgiving with my family, and some friends, the same as every year. Trying to keep things the same for the kids. Not sure what to keep, and what to toss for the time being.


Start of plan B

There's always tomorrow.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 11/25/10 02:02 PM
Thanks! You're right. "Keeping it the same way for the kids" is kind of an excuse, they didn't ask me to do this.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 12/07/10 01:18 PM
My day was shot and killed yesterday. He was delivering mail on his route, as usual, when someone shot him multiple times in the chest, took his mail truck, and dumped it a block away. There is an investigation to find out who did this.

My stepbrother is just 13. I can't imagine, him growing up without the Dad he had his whole life.

If you google "mail carrier shot," that's him. Any thoughts and prayers appreciated.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Letting go - 12/07/10 01:18 PM
Oh no!!! I'm so sorry, ned.
Posted By: optimism Re: Letting go - 12/07/10 01:58 PM
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
My day was shot and killed yesterday. He was delivering mail on his route, as usual, when someone shot him multiple times in the chest, took his mail truck, and dumped it a block away. There is an investigation to find out who did this.

My stepbrother is just 13. I can't imagine, him growing up without the Dad he had his whole life.

If you google "mail carrier shot," that's him. Any thoughts and prayers appreciated.

I'm so sorry NED. What a shame. You are very much in my thoughts and prayers today and I pray you and your family will find the strength to make it through this tragedy.
Light and Love to you my friend,
Optimism
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 12/07/10 07:47 PM
Thanks, guys, I appreciate it.
Posted By: tccoastguard Re: Letting go - 12/07/10 10:50 PM
I'm so sorry NED, my condolences and prayers for your family.

Travis
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 12/09/10 06:31 PM
Thanks, Travis.

B has been a rock for me. He left to fly cross country to LA Monday morning, got the news Monday afternoon, got on a red-eye that night, and was back to take care of the kids Tuesday morning. He even offered to stay with us, so I could have the kids close by. I didn't expect to have that kind of support, and am grateful for it.

The whole thing is still just so unbelievably sad. They're still investigating, but even with a 25K reward, no leads yet.

My Dad was such a warm, friendly guy. Here's what two folks posted about him

Quote
its tommy from apt a203 i remember we always talkd when u would bring the mail around always gave me that warm smile and that positive energy that u always had i remember the last talk we had like it was yesterday and all we would take about is happy days and enjoying the rest of our lifes and what we are gona do and such on. i went in tears when i found out you passd away i know i only knew you for a short time but to me and my family you were by far the nicest mail man we ever met i just want you know to that im fine i know u askd my brothers wife about me and i feel terrible that i couldnt say it face to face to you r.i.p bruce u were by far an amazing person and i will always think about you as a friend.

Quote
Bruce has been our mail man for about 8 yrs and more...he was the most amazing every day positive human contact of my life, he would come in my office singing like a door bell:"mail-Man!" always with a kind, funny note he would deliver our mail. I have to tell you I thought he only did it for me,but when one day being in my next door neighbor office while he delivered her mail, I felt a little jealousy listening to him with the same caring, uplifting tone he delivered her mail...But only then did I realized that Bruce was a real "messenger", he did not just delivered and collected mail , Bruce was a messenger of God,a messenger of LOVE. Thank you Bruce I feel so blessed to have had you as my messenger ...I dedicate to you this Prayer written by the Sioux Indian;

"Let me not take them for granted
or be blind to the marvel of their presence,
to the sound of their voices,
the joy of their companionship
or the beauty of their love"
Posted By: SmilingWoman Re: Letting go - 12/09/10 06:41 PM
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
Thanks, Travis.

B has been a rock for me. He left to fly cross country to LA Monday morning, got the news Monday afternoon, got on a red-eye that night, and was back to take care of the kids Tuesday morning. He even offered to stay with us, so I could have the kids close by. I didn't expect to have that kind of support, and am grateful for it.

The whole thing is still just so unbelievably sad. They're still investigating, but even with a 25K reward, no leads yet.

My Dad was such a warm, friendly guy. Here's what two folks posted about him

Oh no! So shocking NED! I am so sorry. I don't have the words.
Posted By: markos Re: Letting go - 12/09/10 07:12 PM
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
My day was shot and killed yesterday. He was delivering mail on his route, as usual, when someone shot him multiple times in the chest, took his mail truck, and dumped it a block away. There is an investigation to find out who did this.

My stepbrother is just 13. I can't imagine, him growing up without the Dad he had his whole life.

If you google "mail carrier shot," that's him. Any thoughts and prayers appreciated.

Good grief, NED, I am so sorry!
Posted By: at peace Re: Letting go - 12/09/10 07:27 PM
What nice things those customers/friends had to say about your dad, NED. He sounds like a lovely person indeed. It's so sad that such a good person was taken away far too soon. frown

Praying for peace and comfort for your family and all who knew and loved your father.

Lori
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 12/16/10 05:56 AM
Thanks, Lori, markos, cwmi, sw, I appreciate the prayers. We're hanging in there.

I was in the local news this evening, in two stories about the continued search for the person responsible.

http://www.wsvn.com/news/articles/local/21003016698958/

Other story
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 12/16/10 01:18 PM
My divorce went through, I did a name change to my maiden name as part of the paperwork, but didn't file to change my name with Social Security, driver license, passport yet. My Dad was killed, and they haven't found the guy yet, so I feel safer for the time being keeping my married name as my name on the house title, mortgage, and stuff, because all those records are public where I live. Can I leave my name as-is for the time being, or would I need to legally change back to my married name?
Posted By: SmilingWoman Re: Letting go - 12/16/10 02:07 PM


Thanks for sharing this NED. My heart breaks for your family.

Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
Thanks, Lori, markos, cwmi, sw, I appreciate the prayers. We're hanging in there.

I was in the local news this evening, in two stories about the continued search for the person responsible.

http://www.wsvn.com/news/articles/local/21003016698958/

Other story
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Letting go - 12/16/10 04:17 PM
NED, first off, so sorry for your loss. I cannot imagine how you feel when it comes out of the blue like that. My sincere condolences to everyone in your family. As we say in my tribe, Baruch Dayan Ha'Emet.

Second, I am not your lawyer, this is just my layman's reaction, and if you want legal advice you should contact a lawyer in your jurisdiction to find out the actual legal rules.

That said, I think you can continue to use the old name for a while if that keeps you safer. The person in the office next to me just got married and changed her name. I overheard many of her phone calls trying to get the name confusion straightened out. She had to address each item separately, and in a particular order. I think if you leave your married name at Social Security, you will find everyone else perfectly willing to deal with you under that name. So unless you are planning to apply for SS benefits sometime soon (and at your age I sure hope not), then I don't think you will have any problems.

FWIW, my wife was being stalked when we bought our house here in CT. I bought the house in the name of a trust so we could maintain confidentiality. If anyone ever suggests that you need to get your married name off the title, you can always deed the property to someone else as trustee to maintain your privacy. I needed a mortgage to buy the house, and after dealing with a few questions from the bank, they were willing to allow me to borrow the money and take title in the trust. I can walk you through how that worked if it ever becomes relevant.

Let me know if you need anything else.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Letting go - 12/16/10 06:44 PM
I am sorry about your dad...
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 12/17/10 01:50 PM
Thanks guys, for the support. It makes a huge difference having a caring community of family and friends.

I'm glad I can leave the SS as it isfor the time being.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 01/04/11 01:21 PM
No advances in the investigation looking for the guy who shot my Dad. The kids and I are doing okay.

B and I are settling into a routine with the visitation and stuff. He got a permanent offer with the company he's been doing consulting work for, where he could continue to live here, and go stay out of town 3 days a week. I think they're willing to keep him on as a consultant, and he hasn't accepted the offer yet.

The company would be willing to have him work in their SoCal office, and B was frustrated with me that I am not giving this the consideration he thought I should, moving out there with him, now that he has a firm offer. Because back in the day, before the divorce, I had said if he had a permanent job offer there I would have been willing to move. A better Plan B would have been good here, than to have these conversations when I'm not enthusiastic about it.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 04/22/11 01:45 PM
I haven't updated in a while, not much new to report. No one has been arrested in my Dad's case. Parenting has gotten somewhat more difficult, which was unexpected because my kids were always very easy, but I guess we were all just stretched to our limits until we fractured to an extent. But nothing that we can't handle. I did a short term Plan B, and it didn't bring reconciliation, but it brought more peace, so I'm grateful. They say Plan A is the reality-bringer, and I agree with that, and I think Plan B helped in that too. I definitely feel in a much better spot than before I got here, when it was a big struggle to find any peace.
Posted By: SmilingWoman Re: Letting go - 04/22/11 04:38 PM
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
I haven't updated in a while, not much new to report. No one has been arrested in my Dad's case. Parenting has gotten somewhat more difficult, which was unexpected because my kids were always very easy, but I guess we were all just stretched to our limits until we fractured to an extent. But nothing that we can't handle. I did a short term Plan B, and it didn't bring reconciliation, but it brought more peace, so I'm grateful. They say Plan A is the reality-bringer, and I agree with that, and I think Plan B helped in that too. I definitely feel in a much better spot than before I got here, when it was a big struggle to find any peace.

So sorry they haven't found the guy who murdered your father. That is so horrible. frown

I can totally relate to the kids getting harder....my son was always so easy and such a joy. Now, even when I handle him correctly he exhausts me. I do think part of it is him being 11 now.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 04/22/11 10:58 PM
SW, it started for my OD when she was 11, and she didn't tell us, we didn't know how bad it was until December after this happened with my Dad. I hate to say this but at least your son is obvious, so you knew to get him help. I mistakenly thought my DD was doing great the whole time. I guess she gets that from me, good at pretending to be okay. At least now she's getting help.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 04/22/11 11:03 PM
**edit**
Posted By: CWMI Re: Letting go - 04/22/11 11:32 PM
Ned, it pains me to read this last post. Please reconsider it.
Posted By: SmilingWoman Re: Letting go - 04/23/11 12:38 AM
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
SW, it started for my OD when she was 11, and she didn't tell us, we didn't know how bad it was until December after this happened with my Dad. I hate to say this but at least your son is obvious, so you knew to get him help. I mistakenly thought my DD was doing great the whole time. I guess she gets that from me, good at pretending to be okay. At least now she's getting help.

My son has always been very open with me. Still is, discussing girls and biology and how he is feeling. I love him like crazy and I suppose that is why he exhausts me. I've been his only parent (emotionally) for all intents and purposes for 11 years--with the last two being particularly brutal.

If you read my thread, the update, you can see that XH is backing off on his hard nose approach to ds and that is helpig A LOT. Also, XH moving back toward his normal pattern of the absent parent. This is his weekend but he skipped to go on a 4 wheeler ride. Ds is thrilled to get to stay home. Here now with a friend over playing playstation. I asked ds the other day (when he was saying once again that he didn't want to go to his dad's) if it was in his control how much would he want to see his dad. He thought for a while and said twice a week for dinner. He hates to spend the night and he hates going back on Sunday afternoon when the rest of his world is relaxing after services and having fun. Funny because that twice a week for dinner really would translate to what his relationship was with his dad pre-seperation. I can't get all that across to XH though and won't try. I think he has spent the two years since seperation trying to make up (or look good, I don't know) for the previous 9 years that he was so uninvolved.

So we are very much dealing with the fall out. Good news he is slowly bonding with dh and that is good. Dh is a good man who handles his own sons very well...especially with the heartbreak he feels at being seperated from them through no fault of his own. I use his stellar example as a guide to my own behavior. Sometimes he has a difficult time with the lack of relationship between ds and XH...from two standpoints...he lost his own father to death at age 12 and then he lost his boys to divorce. So he is jealous of the opportunity XH and ds have...I've tried to explain to him not all father's (him and his father) are created equal...and we can't force ds to feel for his father what he doesn't feel. That is on XH. He did it.

Sorry to t/j! How old is your dd now? Is she in counseling?
Posted By: MyJourney Re: Letting go - 04/24/11 04:39 AM
Ned, so sorry to hear about your father. Hard to phathom.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 04/25/11 01:14 AM
cwmi, thanks for keeping up with me, I appreciate it. I'm not sure what you want me to reconsider, maybe that I'm speculating on others' families, folks I don't know? Let me keep it in the "I" then. I know that it "takes what it takes". But I wish it didn't take that many years of raising my kids in that level of often-daily strife before I was willing to do what it took to follow through my obligation to raise them in a peaceful home. I knew before DD10 was born what she was coming home to. I planned to leave while I was pregnant, because of the low point we had then, but didn't follow through. OD sometimes remarks to me that she wishes we had divorced long ago. I do think about reconciling sometimes anyways, and I guess that's normal, too.

SW, that's tough, dealing with the inconsistencies. I'm glad that your H can identify with your son that way. It puts it in perspective, divorce is sad, but at least they still have each other now, unlike after a death. I don't consider that a t/j, it helps hearing others' experiences.

OD is 15, YD 10. My older one is in counseling now, and goes to a group. She's doing okay now, but I need to keep vigilant, not assume tomorrow that it is a good day for her just because today is.

MJ, thanks for the condolences. I was in shock for a while, and then it really all started to hit me again. I'm grateful to have a big family here, we got together for Easter today.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Letting go - 04/25/11 11:39 AM
Ned, I was referring to offering advice to people when you feel:
Quote
If I were her I'd get out now while the youngest is a baby and the other kids are young enough that they'll forget it mostly.

Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 04/25/11 01:20 PM
On their threads, I gave the best advice I could offer to support their marriage. Posted the relevant article, encouraged them to do some things that would make their best time of the week, time with each other. I didn't post to her to get the heck out. She gets enough of that in real life, or he wouldn't be forbidding her to talk to her friend about their issues anymore. Telling folks to get out doesn't make them ready. Trying a program, getting some positive momentum, seeing that a better life is possible, with or without your spouse, that's what helps folks let go if that's what's appropriate.

If you were still in the same spot as when you got here, that same runaway state of conflict I was in when I got here, all that back-stabbing and put your chair here or it's a big knock-down drag-out fight, I'd still think the same way about your situation, cwmi. But it sounds like your family has found a more peaceful life. Every kid deserves that, right? What's the point of being married? Not to make your kids' lives miserable while shortening your own.
Posted By: markos Re: Letting go - 04/25/11 02:06 PM
Holy cow, NED, you think every time a husband says something clueless and insensitive his wife should go laugh about it with her friends?

Or did I miss something more serious here in this story that you saw and I did not?

The best thing for their kids is for their parents to be in love, not divorced and peaceful. They are both here wanting to make things better, the husband as well as the wife. And they are making great progress and showing great willingness to change for each other. Both of them! No matter how young their children are, no matter how much they forget, they would be affected by the divorce of their parents for the rest of their lives. With this kind of effort and motivation, they seem more than capable of correcting what is wrong with their marriage and falling back in love, as many, many people have done. So to even suggest that separation might be in order seems like a damaging thing to do, to me

NED, don't you feel like you could be projecting a lot of your own experience onto this situation?
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 04/26/11 12:13 AM
Quote
Holy cow, NED, you think every time a husband says something clueless and insensitive his wife should go laugh about it with her friends?

No, have I ever said that, ever? If you talked to B or anyone who knows me, I am very respectful of him and don't laugh at him at all except like if he's being cute and I'm laughing with him. Like the other day I was telling him that at work we're doing a dessert thing for Cinco de Mayo, and he says, oh, when is that? And I'm like oh it's on Cinco de Mayo, because we live in South Florida and our kids have taken Spanish so I know he knows that cinco, de, and Mayo mean 5, of, May. So then there was this aha! moment and we all laughed together.

From the advice you gave there, I assumed that you are seeing the same thing in Hill and Grace's situation as I am.

I agree that the best thing for kids is for parents to be in love, but it takes consistency in love and respect, not rubbing the partner's nose in it when their actions don't fall in line with unrealistic expectations. You may be right about "making great progress and showing great willingness to change for each other." I hope you do turn out right. That stuff takes time to assess.

I am a child of divorce and I agree that it has long-lasting effects. But as just one person, while seeing my Dad leave for an OW was sad all those years ago, living in daily strife with my mom and stepdad was horrifically much worse.

Believe me you won't see me go over there and suggest separation. I haven't seen either of them post on others' threads, so I don't think it's likely they would wander over here and read my posts. IRL I don't discourage folks from working on their marriages, I have their kids over so they can go out on Date Night and all that, even if I think over time their marriage is a hopeless cause.

From what I've read, the underlying disrespect, no, I don't think I'm projecting. If that were the case, I'd say that about more situations, not just very isolated ones.
Posted By: markos Re: Letting go - 04/26/11 01:35 PM
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
Quote
Holy cow, NED, you think every time a husband says something clueless and insensitive his wife should go laugh about it with her friends?

No, have I ever said that, ever?

Yes, you seemed very upset at the idea that grace shouldn't go talk about Hilltopper's clueless mistakes to her friend:

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/u...in=163430&Number=2500524#Post2500524

And now, while you are not posting to them directly, you are still over here saying very discouraging things about their marriage. Of course, they could come right here and see it, so it's not as if you're having a private conversation they can't see.

I don't think you and I are seeing their marriage in the same way at all. You seem to be coming from the point of view that he is unlikely to change. And yet here they are, working in a program that gives great hope of change.

I don't think you ought to be encouraging a wife to "get out" simply because her husband has made some clueless and insensitive remarks and reactionary. And I don't think you can really claim you aren't providing that encouragement simply because you are posting that opinion on a different thread. You have no idea what other people's posting and reading habits are.

What are you seeing that makes you brand him such a bully? And why are you coming from the point of view that people cannot change and that being a good husband is not behavior that men can learn?
Posted By: markos Re: Letting go - 04/26/11 01:47 PM
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
She gets enough of that in real life, or he wouldn't be forbidding her to talk to her friend about their issues anymore.

That's quite a leap.

Do you feel like in marriage women ought to be able to talk to their friends about whatever their husbands do?

I am amazingly thankful that my wife Prisca does not go blab about my mistakes to other women. How embarrassing! I've never known any of Prisca's friends to encourage her to "get out," but I'd still drop dead of embarrassment if Prisca shared my mistakes around freely. To me, that is part of protecting each other in marriage, and it's a very reasonable expectation for both husbands and wives, not a sign that somebody is a bully.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Letting go - 04/26/11 04:12 PM
Quote
I am amazingly thankful that my wife Prisca does not go blab about my mistakes to other women. How embarrassing! I've never known any of Prisca's friends to encourage her to "get out," but I'd still drop dead of embarrassment if Prisca shared my mistakes around freely. To me, that is part of protecting each other in marriage, and it's a very reasonable expectation for both husbands and wives, not a sign that somebody is a bully.
Chiming in to agree. You know, sometimes people can say or do some amazingly stupid things. I know I've been known to. blush I'm glad DH doesn't share that with others, and I'd never talk about his 'flubs' with anyone else, either.

Here's the slippery slope of sharing this type of thing with friends (other than the obvious disrespect and disloyalty that the spouse would feel if they knew about it): Some friends are loyal to a fault. When you vent to these friends they're going to side with you, regardless of whether or not you're justified in what you're saying. And you've just colored your spouse to them. When you're done venting, and feel better, the friend may still be righteously indignant about the heel who is mistreating you so. Even after you assure them that you were just 'venting' they may still have mentally placed a black mark against your spouse. They are in your corner, not necessarily your spouse's.

Good rule of thumb to use when I'm talking to friends out of earshot of my DH: Would I say it if he were sitting next to me? If the answer is "No" I don't say it at all.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 04/27/11 02:24 AM
Quote
Yes, you seemed very upset at the idea that grace shouldn't go talk about Hilltopper's clueless mistakes to her friend

I hear you saying you think today that he made a clueless mistake. I don't think it was a mistake. I think he lets himself say this stuff. To me a mistake would be more like if he forgot to take the trash out, not forgetting to speak to a spouse with basic respect. I don't think he would lack basic empathy, or he wouldn't have a job, because he'd be fired if he said that stuff to his coworkers. But somehow, with empathy or not, he does find a way to treat them with basic respect.

You may take what I said about getting out with the kids as discouraging their marriage. I would consider it a wake up call, especially after a brief Plan A, as in the When to Call It Quits article. Dr. H's wife broke up with him twice before they were married. If they were reading here, on my thread, wouldn't they post like "please cut that out" if I was discouraging them? They have a ton of encouraging posts, many from you, some form me, on their threads. How would my one or two posts that you don't like change the outcome. I'm not that powerful. You know this. I'm asking you, markos, I like you, and your wife, please stop treating me or my posts as discouraging.

I see patterns over time, a sense of intuition who has the underlying basic respect for their spouse, and who doesn't. I'm not saying change is impossible. I'm just saying if it were *me* I would get *my kids* the heck out. Even Dr. H says he wouldn't choose to recover his own marriage after an affair. We all have our limits.

Quote
What are you seeing that makes you brand him such a bully?
You know their threads better than I do. I feel like I'm just repeating myself and adding nothing new at this point. For me it all boils down into either you see your partner as an autonomous equal, or you see them as someone who has taken something from you that belongs to you. It's the entitlement. "I changed for 3 days, where's my reward?" Who comes here and says that, or even thinks that way? Very few, even in State of Conflict. But that's fine, they can raise as many kids as long as they want to in a house like that. It's a free country. It's going to take me years to untrain that stuff out of my kids, and that's if it's not too late. Which it may be. I want to vomit when I hear my DD15 make excuses for her friends' insults. One guy called my then 17 year old sister "trick" on her Facebook page, and when I posted asking him who he thought he was talking to her like that, I was the one she unfriended. She says that's how kids talk to each other now.

Quote
And why are you coming from the point of view that people cannot change and that being a good husband is not behavior that men can learn?
Sure folks can change and learn new habits. If I had it to do over again I would not leave my kids in that for an extended period of time while I figured out if I could make my marriage work. He said he's been working on this since January, I would think that may be more than long enough for change to take root, if it's going to happen. Folks do change, and I think I've been one of the biggest cheerleaders here consistently over time when they do.

Quote
Do you feel like in marriage women ought to be able to talk to their friends about whatever their husbands do?
Sure. In practice I don't share B's private stuff, like his thoughts and feelings. But the rest I use my own discretion about. B did tell me I shared too much, so I toned it back, out of respect for his request.

I think both men and women should reason through with others these kinds of power and control issues Hill and Grace post about, though, like AOs, including vulgar insults. I don't agree this falls into "blabbing about mistakes", "amazingly stupid things", "flubs" or "venting". Especially when this stuff is still going on after months of being here, when the information on Love Busters is so clear. This is serious stuff.

http://www.hiddenhurt.co.uk/power_and_control_wheel.html


Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 04/27/11 02:57 AM
Just caught up, it looks like things may be turning around for them, that'd be great. It was really just a tiny comment, I didn't mean to turn my thread into a commentary about all that.
Posted By: kerala Re: Letting go - 04/27/11 03:04 AM
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
Quote
Yes, you seemed very upset at the idea that grace shouldn't go talk about Hilltopper's clueless mistakes to her friend

I hear you saying you think today that he made a clueless mistake. I don't think it was a mistake. I think he lets himself say this stuff. To me a mistake would be more like if he forgot to take the trash out, not forgetting to speak to a spouse with basic respect. I don't think he would lack basic empathy, or he wouldn't have a job, because he'd be fired if he said that stuff to his coworkers. But somehow, with empathy or not, he does find a way to treat them with basic respect.

You may take what I said about getting out with the kids as discouraging their marriage. I would consider it a wake up call, especially after a brief Plan A, as in the When to Call It Quits article. Dr. H's wife broke up with him twice before they were married. If they were reading here, on my thread, wouldn't they post like "please cut that out" if I was discouraging them? They have a ton of encouraging posts, many from you, some form me, on their threads. How would my one or two posts that you don't like change the outcome. I'm not that powerful. You know this. I'm asking you, markos, I like you, and your wife, please stop treating me or my posts as discouraging.

I see patterns over time, a sense of intuition who has the underlying basic respect for their spouse, and who doesn't. I'm not saying change is impossible. I'm just saying if it were *me* I would get *my kids* the heck out. Even Dr. H says he wouldn't choose to recover his own marriage after an affair. We all have our limits.

Quote
What are you seeing that makes you brand him such a bully?
You know their threads better than I do. I feel like I'm just repeating myself and adding nothing new at this point. For me it all boils down into either you see your partner as an autonomous equal, or you see them as someone who has taken something from you that belongs to you. It's the entitlement. "I changed for 3 days, where's my reward?" Who comes here and says that, or even thinks that way? Very few, even in State of Conflict. But that's fine, they can raise as many kids as long as they want to in a house like that. It's a free country. It's going to take me years to untrain that stuff out of my kids, and that's if it's not too late. Which it may be. I want to vomit when I hear my DD15 make excuses for her friends' insults. One guy called my then 17 year old sister "trick" on her Facebook page, and when I posted asking him who he thought he was talking to her like that, I was the one she unfriended. She says that's how kids talk to each other now.

Quote
And why are you coming from the point of view that people cannot change and that being a good husband is not behavior that men can learn?
Sure folks can change and learn new habits. If I had it to do over again I would not leave my kids in that for an extended period of time while I figured out if I could make my marriage work. He said he's been working on this since January, I would think that may be more than long enough for change to take root, if it's going to happen. Folks do change, and I think I've been one of the biggest cheerleaders here consistently over time when they do.

Quote
Do you feel like in marriage women ought to be able to talk to their friends about whatever their husbands do?
Sure. In practice I don't share B's private stuff, like his thoughts and feelings. But the rest I use my own discretion about. B did tell me I shared too much, so I toned it back, out of respect for his request.

I think both men and women should reason through with others these kinds of power and control issues Hill and Grace post about, though, like AOs, including vulgar insults. I don't agree this falls into "blabbing about mistakes", "amazingly stupid things", "flubs" or "venting". Especially when this stuff is still going on after months of being here, when the information on Love Busters is so clear. This is serious stuff.
http://www.hiddenhurt.co.uk/power_and_control_wheel.html

Word.

HT and HTW will make their own choices. The idea that it is wrong for NED to express her feelings about what she derives from their posts, in her own thread to boot, is really out there.

It seems to me that the harsh and discouraging label is being applied with extraordinary selectivity.
Posted By: Fireproof Re: Letting go - 04/27/11 05:14 AM
Please don't bring debates from other threads over here in order to avoid our board policy of sticking to Marriage Builders concepts. Talking about other posters and calling them names ["bully"] is inappropriate and against our TOS. Let's end this discussion now, please.

Any questions, shoot me an email.

Fireproof
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 05/11/11 11:36 PM
What a relief, two of the men responsible in my Dad's case were caught last week.

http://www.miamiherald.com/2011/05/05/2202633/possible-break-in-the-case-of.html
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 05/12/11 12:03 AM
Wow, just realized that my thread name is pretty appropriate. A lot to let go of. Like anger and bitterness over these folks who did this to my Dad. But I have a lot to hold onto, like my good memories of him. He was so good with my kids, they would jump on his back and he'd carry them around. He was so patient and caring. Mother's Day we had a nice day with my mom and our family. A lot to be grateful for.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Letting go - 05/12/11 01:33 AM
NED, I am so deeply sorry about the death of your father. What a shocking and tragic loss. How grateful you must be that they caught the killers. {{{{{{{{{{{{{{{NED}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
Posted By: MyJourney Re: Letting go - 05/12/11 01:44 AM
I love that you have good memories of him NED. My mother passed away last year, shortly before Mother's Day. She was a very loving and caring person, and I will always cherish the good memories I have of her. I am grateful for that.

I am glad to hear that you are hanging onto the good things, to see you through the bad. I am grateful that you had a Dad who you have fond memories of.

{{{NED}}}
Posted By: kempkemp Re: Letting go - 08/28/11 03:03 PM
NED, I've read your journey and your post to me on my thread "Other Wives...". I think I truly know how you feel. I'm tired too. But I'm really curious about the "life" afterward. I too feel peace when I think of a life without H. Relief, peace, you name it. Does that describe me as WOW. I've even read that book. haha Oh by the way...Sorry about your Dad. I'm trying to learn from others before I make my decisions. I even did some reading about legal separation laws in Texas. I scared myself for "thinking" that far ahead. I have hope sometimes and then I cringe. My question for you is "Do you have peace now?" Sincerely looking!
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 09/05/11 08:24 PM
Kemp, sorry I didn't see this earlier. Life afterward is pretty cool. I don't walk on eggshells anymore. I had second thoughts once or twice, and once talked to the kids, and they were like no way, they don't want to go back to that, the bad moods and all that. The kids are doing really well.

If I never met another man again, I still think single life is way better than the marriage we had. B and I are really good friends now, so it's not that I'm like a bitter woman or something. I have been on a few dates, and that's fun, too.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 09/13/12 09:21 PM
Last week and this week was the trial for the unman who shot and killed my Dad. The jury came back with the verdict today. Guilty on all counts! What a relief! And the third person was *finally* caught, just this last Sunday! He had fled when the other two were arrested last May. The getaway driver pled guilty last month, and testified last week.

I am so grateful to the folks who put all the evidence together to make a complete picture. The folks who called 911 at the scene, helped my Dad there, and then came to the trial to testify. The ex-girlfriend who got a letter asking to falsify evidence, and instead turned the letter in to the police. The law enforcement folks who have a ton of experience with this and knew where to look for the pieces to put together. The prosecutors who recreated the picture in a way that answered a lot of questions I had. I am feeling a lot of closure already.

*****edit****
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Letting go - 09/13/12 09:47 PM
Happy for you NED. I know it couldn't ever replace your father.

I just wanted to send a hug
Posted By: tccoastguard Re: Letting go - 09/14/12 12:39 AM
NED, I'm happy for you that this portion of all of this is over. And my continued condolences for the loss of your dad.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 09/14/12 01:39 PM
Thanks JustUss, for looking out for me, I haven't been good about editing that stuff out later. Brain, tc, thanks for the kind thoughts. This place becomes like another family after all the trials we ave been through together. My kids are doing well, getting their questions answered too.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Letting go - 09/14/12 02:53 PM
How are you and your children doing?

And your new boyfriend? Does he have children also? Blended family?
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 09/14/12 03:13 PM
We are doing well, thanks. The kids wanted to go to the trial, but because of the nature of the evidence like the 911 calls, medical examiner findings, we decided as a family to take them to the sentencing hearing instead.

My boyfriend and my ex have both been a great support through a difficult time. They both had different days they could take to come to the trial so we wouldn't have to go alone. My boyfriend has a 16 year old who lives out of state, that I haven't met yet, but hopefully will in time. My kids totally adore my boyfriend, and he thinks they're awesome too. We're really similar in parenting style, when we do disagree we are good at finding the solutions we both like. My favorite saying is "there are no bad answers here." Because like it says with the thoughtful request article, if something isn't working, you just go back and try something else.

I read HNHN for Parents years ago and so if they are having a rough time with anything, like trouble keeping up with homework, the solution is always the same, to make sure we get in that 15 hours FC time. I haven't run into anything that time together to address the issue didn't fix. They usually just forget they can ask for help, just like me lol.
Posted By: Nochanges Re: Letting go - 09/18/12 03:35 PM
I just want to say, not aware of the whole story but I am so sorry about the loss of yr dad, but glad to read that they found the people that did it. May you now find some peace and remember the good times with yr dad. <3
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 09/18/12 03:48 PM
Thanks Luly, I'm glad you are getting a lot of good memories with your loved ones too.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 10/08/12 01:37 PM
I have really awful news and really happy news. I was out sick last week so I didn't get to post at the time here, my boyfriend's mom passed away suddenly. It came as a big shock because she was going in for a routine procedure she'd gone in for several times before. Impacted bowel. But this time, her heart stopped. She had just celebrated her 76th birthday. My boyfriend and his family are doing okay under the circumstances.

And then the happy news. My boyfriend had planned to propose for my birthday, what a surprise! I had been sick all week, but was better enough to go to the beach Saturday. The water was warm enough, we even went for a swim. We had dinner, and then after dinner went to sit on the sand again, and he proposed, it was so beautiful. And I said yes! We told the kids when they came back yesterday, they were so happy too!
Posted By: CWMI Re: Letting go - 10/08/12 01:49 PM
Wow, congrats, Ned! You have brought MB to this relationship, right? Is he on board with the concepts?

Sorry to hear about his mom. Please forgive me for this off-color comment, but I can't help but think, hey, no mother-in-law! I'll go flog myself now...I am totally going to hell. smile
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: Letting go - 10/08/12 02:33 PM
For a second marriage you should seriously consider having MB principles, specifically the Policy of Joint Agreement as part of your marriage contract
Posted By: tccoastguard Re: Letting go - 10/08/12 05:04 PM
Congrats Ned, that's great news!!!
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 10/10/12 01:16 PM
He's one of those folks who is just naturally on board with the concepts, making thoughtful requests instead of demands, respectful persuasion instead of DJs, brainstorming and coming back to it later instead of AOs. I have never seen him get angry. There are always things that happen that aren't what we would have picked, but he has a great attitude and doesn't let stuff upset him, just problem-solves what we can and lets go of the rest. You know I had issues with all that old programming, but I've had a lot of practice eliminating my LBs before I met him. So that has been blessedly easy.

I think the thing that's furthest from how society lives today is that for most folks today, the first big step toward commitment, after agreeing not to date others, is moving in together. And I'd BTDT and saw how living together before a commitment brought a renter's agreement into my first marriage, and I shared with my boyfriend how I felt about that. It meant a lot to me to see what a man of character he is, that he didn't push me to believe differently.

cwmi, I understand what you're thinking, I had a difficult love-hate roller coaster relationship with my first MiL. My fianc�'s mom and I had really hit it off well, though, and I know she would have approved.

Hi HDW, I seen in your sig line you're in alanon, I'm a grateful member too smile I'm not planning a marriage contract, but I totally agree about POJA and we're both real naturals at that.

Thanks tc for the congratulations!
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Letting go - 10/11/12 02:35 AM
hurray congrats NED.

Sorry tot your boyfriend's loss.

Also HappyBirthday belated
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 10/11/12 12:32 PM
Thanks brain for the congratulations!
Posted By: Jhamila Re: Letting go - 01/26/13 12:46 AM
Hi NED, I just saw your thread -

So sorry about your Dad, but glad they were convicted. frown

Congratulations on your upcoming marriage!
loveheart

You've been such an inspiration to me and so kind, even with everything you were going through. Thank you.

- Z blush
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Letting go - 01/26/13 01:15 PM
NED,

I just read that they were sentenced. Life without parole for one.

I hope you're ok? hug
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 01/26/13 04:57 PM
Thanks Z, I could relate to so much you were going through. Even though my marriage didn't make it, using the tools I learned here every day in my family makes me really comfortable that I can leave a different legacy with my kids, that they will have the skills they need if they decide to get married one day.

Yes Brain, what a relief for this to be over! The sentencing was yesterday, the gunman got life in prison without possibility of parole, plus 42 years, and the getaway driver got 21 years in prison plus 3 years probation, because he had testified against the gunman. The judge said this crime, killing a postal carrier for his Arrow key to make tax fraud easier, was the most heinous case he had seen in his 21 years as a federal judge.

My daughter was one of the folks who addressed the judge, to tell him about the kind of man my father was, I'm proud of her.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Letting go - 01/26/13 09:06 PM
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
Thanks Z, I could relate to so much you were going through. Even though my marriage didn't make it, using the tools I learned here every day in my family makes me really comfortable that I can leave a different legacy with my kids, that they will have the skills they need if they decide to get married one day.

Yes Brain, what a relief for this to be over! The sentencing was yesterday, the gunman got life in prison without possibility of parole, plus 42 years, and the getaway driver got 21 years in prison plus 3 years probation, because he had testified against the gunman. The judge said this crime, killing a postal carrier for his Arrow key to make tax fraud easier, was the most heinous case he had seen in his 21 years as a federal judge.

My daughter was one of the folks who addressed the judge, to tell him about the kind of man my father was, I'm proud of her.
Wow what a brave DD. What a proud moment, in a such an awful situation.

Thanks for sharing.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 01/11/14 04:16 PM
Sad to say I broke it off with my fiancee. I had some doubts earlier this year, and I had asked him to move out in February, and then to move back in in July. My doubts were centered around his disconnect with his DS17 in another state. I looked the family up, gave him the information, he reached out and they got back in touch. But DS got in some trouble in October, and my fiancee L wasn't really following up and it had me concerned, our values must be really out of line. I would bring up my concerns and L would half address them. More to come�.
Posted By: BlairBluefin Re: Letting go - 01/11/14 04:47 PM
I'm sorry you are hurting right now. I have to say that I am so proud of you in making this difficult choice.

Hugs.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 01/11/14 06:23 PM
Thanks blue! So then last month, I found out that L hadn't filed for divorce until October 2012, after he had proposed, and the divorce hadn't gone through until November 2012. I went to him with this, and kept giving me stories, said it was a misunderstanding, and was sorry. But never admitted to lying.
Posted By: BlairBluefin Re: Letting go - 01/11/14 06:28 PM
I imagine it hurt to hear him "explain" it away like that. Lying is not a mis-understanding. Especially after everything you have already been through.

Take heart, sweetie. You are in the right. And you deserve better than this. Especially someone who will be open & honest with you.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Letting go - 01/11/14 06:39 PM
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
Thanks blue! So then last month, I found out that L hadn't filed for divorce until October 2012, after he had proposed, and the divorce hadn't gone through until November 2012. I went to him with this, and kept giving me stories, said it was a misunderstanding, and was sorry. But never admitted to lying.
So sorry NED. It hurts to be lied to, but glad you're strong enough to see it.

Is there a reason you chose to live together before marriage? Have you read what Dr. H says about living together before marriage?

Is he out of your place now?
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Letting go - 01/11/14 06:58 PM
Another question NED. What was it that your mom said a year ago about your fiance?
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 01/11/14 07:13 PM
I have read those articles, and agree with the premises. I thought I was doing well to wait until we were engaged, because then the folks were Buyers and not Renters. I think that was one of our strong points, day to day treated one another with the Buyer mentality and not the Renter one.

I think we got engaged a lot sooner than we would have if I wasn't adamant about not moving in together until then. Maybe I need more hindsight on this. My mom said a year ago that L was pushing too fast, and I needed to stop pressuring myself to be ready for a certain date. I felt torn because I think marriage, a permanent family, would give the kids and I stability. I'm sure I was pushing too fast, too.

And then in July my mom and I had a falling out because L told her and my stepdad he had been out of contact with his son for a long time. I didn't think he had changed his story then, because he had told me something similar up front. I don't know if that's too much detail but it was the details she was concerned over. My mom tends to obsess over details she remembers wrong so I wasn't too worried. But then in October when his son was having trouble and L didn't follow up very well I got more concerned.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Letting go - 01/11/14 07:36 PM
So he's falling out with his DS17 was from his own doing? Does his DS17 live with his mom?

Is he still living with you?
Posted By: Jhamila Re: Letting go - 01/11/14 09:10 PM

Sometimes moms have an uncanny radar wink

Also, I say again how sorry I am NED. I know you must be hurting right now. frown
Posted By: Jhamila Re: Letting go - 01/11/14 09:30 PM
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
My mom said a year ago that L was pushing too fast, and I needed to stop pressuring myself to be ready for a certain date. I felt torn because I think marriage, a permanent family, would give the kids and I stability. I'm sure I was pushing too fast, too.

NED, this is my biggest regret in my 2nd marriage - I was high on MB principles and believed that my xH was on board (he said he was!) - so we had a whirlwind romance and marriage. I did not check into his background as thoroughly as I should have because I was so ready to be "a family" again. frown

I'm so glad you found out before you married him. You're a wise woman.

Posted By: My4Loves Re: Letting go - 01/11/14 09:52 PM
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
I have read those articles, and agree with the premises. I thought I was doing well to wait until we were engaged, because then the folks were Buyers and not Renters. I think that was one of our strong points, day to day treated one another with the Buyer mentality and not the Renter one.

I think we got engaged a lot sooner than we would have if I wasn't adamant about not moving in together until then. Maybe I need more hindsight on this. My mom said a year ago that L was pushing too fast, and I needed to stop pressuring myself to be ready for a certain date. I felt torn because I think marriage, a permanent family, would give the kids and I stability. I'm sure I was pushing too fast, too.

And then in July my mom and I had a falling out because L told her and my stepdad he had been out of contact with his son for a long time. I didn't think he had changed his story then, because he had told me something similar up front. I don't know if that's too much detail but it was the details she was concerned over. My mom tends to obsess over details she remembers wrong so I wasn't too worried. But then in October when his son was having trouble and L didn't follow up very well I got more concerned.

I have one rule that I will never compromise in my quest for love ... those who fail at raising their kids can never obtain buyer status and should be avoided in all dating relationships. That kind of selfishness and disrespect will be present no matter how one tries to mask it.

The mere fact a man has his child in another state no matter the circumstances will never be good quality marriage material. It should be huge red flag that they lack the simple concept of proper care. How can one care for their spouse yet not put that same kind of care into their children?

A decent loving parent would fight until the end to obtain at least 50% custody. Any parent who simply rolls over and lets those kids be raised in the hands of the other parent should speak volumes about how much effort they'd put into their new relationships...i.e. very little effort. If they do put a great amount of effort into the new relationship yet won't put the same amount of effort into raising their kids again speaks huges volumes about their character.

Buyers not only demonstrate proper care and thoughtfulness in their marriage but also garner an integrity and respectful character to those around them.

Just my 2cents!!!


Posted By: Jhamila Re: Letting go - 01/13/14 05:59 AM
How are you doing, NED? I'm worried about you and sending hugs your way. I'm sure it's super-tough and I am sad for you.

Are you having second thoughts? I'd struggle with that, especially if he had other really great qualities...so painful.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 01/13/14 02:21 PM
His DS17 lives with his mom now, but was living with the grandparents when they lost contact. DS17 had gotten into some trouble and the grandparents moved him, and that was when L lost contact. But he wasn't hard to find. L is planning to move out at the end of next month.

Z that's exactly it, felt something was missing and wanted to be a family again. I think I was checking enough for the information I had, and when that information gap got bigger I looked some more. I am so glad I did get the information in time. In July I was feeling like I wished I had gone ahead with the original marriage date.

HSH I won't even pretend to understand how that works. My Dad was a stand up guy who stayed and help raise his stepson and gave him a ton of at home medical help after work every day, very dedicated. Even though he was out of my brother's and my life for 10 years. So that was something that hurt a lot but I thought maybe it was okay. Now I know for me it is too sore of a spot to go again.

Z, I felt relief at first but now with the kids back at their dad's the sadness has set in again. We're going out of town for the weekend though, that's a bright spot to look forward to.
Posted By: My4Loves Re: Letting go - 01/13/14 03:13 PM
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
HSH I won't even pretend to understand how that works. My Dad was a stand up guy who stayed and help raise his stepson and gave him a ton of at home medical help after work every day, very dedicated. Even though he was out of my brother's and my life for 10 years. So that was something that hurt a lot but I thought maybe it was okay. Now I know for me it is too sore of a spot to go again.

I strongly encourage you to look at this more ... your dad may have been the one who raised his step-son but it was at an extremely high price, i.e. the expense of your brother and you.

You are still comfortable with sacrifice at your expense, and each and every time this will destroy you.

I am not going to quantify or give your father a DJ, but I do want to let you know it was selfish of him to raise another man's child while sacrificing his own. Look at the amount and hurt and bad habits that have been built over they years by you and your brother due to the actions of your father.

I have a lot of girlfriends who don't quite get the sacrifice notion yet ... I constantly tell them having a partner who understands nothing is a greater gift to their relationship than having a partner who understands sacrifice in the relationship means utter destruction to them both.

Find someone who will treasure you by not making you sacrifice. You will be so much more successful in making your family work.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 01/14/14 01:59 PM
HSH, he raised two sets of stepchildren, one from the OW, that was the same time as my brother and I. And then my stepbrother is the same age as my kids, I hadn't thought of it like that, but yes it was at the expense of the grandkids. They didn't get to do the things with their grandpa that we did with our grandparents because his stepson needed a lot of time and attention. It's all water under the bridge now, my dad passed away in 2010.

But all this stuff L does for my kids, you're right, his son needs that care. I told him in October that I wish he would go and see to him I would wait here. That's what I would do if one of my kids was in trouble.

Quote
Find someone who will treasure you by not making you sacrifice. You will be so much more successful in making your family work.

So true! I feel a long way off from that, but everything in time.
Posted By: Jhamila Re: Letting go - 01/14/14 02:05 PM
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
Z, I felt relief at first but now with the kids back at their dad's the sadness has set in again. We're going out of town for the weekend though, that's a bright spot to look forward to.

That's hard. And you have to wait for him to leave, which means you are on hold before getting your life back and being able to heal. ((((NED))))

So the weekend is with him? I hope you enjoy, though I'm sure will be bittersweet. I think breakups are some of the toughest things in the world. frown

You deserve a caring relationship, one of extraordinary care. And YOU WILL FIND IT because you have high standards and will accept nothing less.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 01/14/14 03:37 PM
Thankfully no the weekend is me, the kids and my mom, at Disney. We've never been able to take a vacation together because my mom always had to work too many hours. Now she has a bad knee, but I think she'll be open to renting a scooter. If nothing else she can relax at the resort.
Posted By: Jhamila Re: Letting go - 01/15/14 06:31 AM
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
Thankfully no the weekend is me, the kids and my mom, at Disney. We've never been able to take a vacation together because my mom always had to work too many hours. Now she has a bad knee, but I think she'll be open to renting a scooter. If nothing else she can relax at the resort.

SOOO Glad! Enjoy your time away. smile

Sounds like perfect timing.
Posted By: tccoastguard Re: Letting go - 01/15/14 08:37 PM
Hey NED, I'm glad you're getting away with the family as well. Have a good time and enjoy. It's bittersweet but you'll make it through; your kids love you and that's what really matters right now.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 01/15/14 09:19 PM
Thanks guys! I am sad too but I feel more relieved. I guess I thought everyone had big doubts like this.
Posted By: Jhamila Re: Letting go - 01/17/14 06:30 AM
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
Thanks guys! I am sad too but I feel more relieved. I guess I thought everyone had big doubts like this.

I'm sorry, NED. frown

One of the hardest things for me is to get quiet and ask, "How does it feel - deep down - to be with him?"

The other hardest thing is to actually take care of myself, if that feeling isn't a good one. I've been working on this for a year, and it's still tough! (I keep letting people into my life that I don't feel good about - it's a bad habit!)

I don't know for sure, but perhaps you sometimes take care of everyone but you? You are kind, respectful and compassionate. These are beautiful qualities...are you showing yourself the same kindness, respect and compassion that you give to others?

(Listen to me, I sound so Oprah!)

Hugs to you, my dear friend.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 01/17/14 03:55 PM
Quote
One of the hardest things for me is to get quiet and ask, "How does it feel - deep down - to be with him?"

Oh man, that was the hard part, though. I felt so safe and connected. I'm not a high-strung person, but I am very sensitive to LBs, and L really put me at ease with that. Coming from a very high-conflict marriage, I didn't see it coming that part of the low conflict was that L was telling me what I wanted to hear and another part was I wasn't comparing his words and actions enough in the beginning especially. I've read we should be able to weed out someone in 2 months.

That taking care of myself, taking my taker to the table is something I'm still working on. A break up gives a lot of practice!
Posted By: My4Loves Re: Letting go - 01/17/14 07:28 PM
Something that I learned dating the 30+ men is the ones that doesn't engage in some kind of conflict (conflict avoider) is 99% of the time likely a liar. Dr. Harley mentioned one time that he and Joyce have a lot of conflict during the day, but they are able to resolve it quickly through POJA.

Remember POJA has two vital parts
1) The knowledge you will not sacrifice
2) 100% radical honesty

I learned the ones who say what you want to hear and who are the quiet go along with whatever are likely to be strong liars.

It is a learned behavior in most of them ... a bad habit they grew up with and now implement it in their adult relationships.

The fact L made you safe from little to no conflict (versus your first marriage) was because he believed in sacrifice and was a dishonest person.

Both extremes (High Conflict/Conflict Avoiders) are very dangerous, and should be avoided at all costs.

Instead look for the ones that are okay with saying ... I don't like that, I'd handle that different, or that is something I don't do. That is actually an honest person who is comfortable telling you the truth even if it isn't something you want to hear. This opens a great opportunity for you to start to see if they are open to POJA.

Online daters are actually kind of good here. Some will actually negotiate with you to find a good place to eat or meet? When I am asked if I would like to meet, I always respond with, "Yes, what are your suggestions (coffee or lunch)?" This opens the door for them to come back and show you if they are okay with suggestions, i.e. "I would like coffee, does this place at this location work, or would you prefer this other place?"

You just start like that ... it is amazing the online daters you can weed out this way. I usually don't give the ones that say to me, "I don't care...it is up to you...etc." much consideration because I have always found them to be more conflict avoiders. I want honesty from the get go...!

i.e..."Thank you for telling me you don't like that, what would you like instead?"

i.e..."Thank you for telling me you don't do that or prefer to handle it a different way. What are your suggestions?"

My 2cents!
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 01/17/14 08:35 PM
HSH, thanks for sharing all this, I had no idea. Have you seen Frozen? I was one of the ones shocked by the ending. I expect the "bad guy" to be obvious about it.
Posted By: tccoastguard Re: Letting go - 01/21/14 05:10 AM
Hey NED, how was the weekend away? I hope it was fun and relaxing for you guys. Sending positive thoughts and prayers in your direction!
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 01/21/14 10:02 PM
We had fun at the beginning of the weekend, but then the second day my mom got horrible food poisoning and I had to take her back to the hotel. The poor thing. At least we got a lot of good quality time together before that. I got a lot of good individual time with each of the kids, and they each got time with my mom, too.

When I got back last night, my fiance wanted to talk, he went to see an IC and the IC thinks we can work this out together. He asked what did I want to see, and I think I explained it well without DJs. I said several times that this is hard to say because I don't want you to feel judged in any way. Just I need certain things to feel like I can believe in him going forward and they aren't there. He knew I was bothered with his past, the losing contact with his son for many years, and I was trying to look for reasons that today things are different and I'm not finding it. I described some things that would tell me things are different today, like flying up to be with his son when he had a medical emergency a couple of months ago, or getting paperwork that I could believe this story that he has filed for divorce in 2010 before we got together in 2012. But made it clear it's not my place to ask him to change, and I accept his choices. It was so hard to say all that, but these are all things he is perfectly comfortable with, so he looked very relieved. He said now he understands, that we hadn't talked about it very much the night we broke up.
Posted By: My4Loves Re: Letting go - 01/21/14 10:04 PM
I would now watch his actions...I wouldn't commit to anything with him, and I would guard your heart. You owe him nothing. He has to prove himself through action.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 01/21/14 10:31 PM
Yes, if things change they would be very obvious. He would move on his own already rather than dragging it out because things are easier at my house.
Posted By: tccoastguard Re: Letting go - 01/28/14 10:17 PM
Hey NED. Saw you on my thread and was wondering how you're doing. Has anything developed in your world?
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 01/29/14 05:43 PM
It turned out it wasn't food poisoning, my mom had had a heart attack, but she's doing better now, she was in the hospital a few days and is now recovering back at home.

Nothing's new here, just waiting for my ex to move out. Then I'm going to take some extended time off before I start trying to date again. I am still actively limiting my communication with my ex H because every time I see him those what-ifs come back.

I like seeing your progress in the dating though, and turning a new leaf there!
Posted By: tccoastguard Re: Letting go - 01/29/14 06:00 PM
So sorry to hear about your mom's heart attack; I'm glad she's doing better! Have you given your ex a concrete move out date? I know that living together after the split has happened can be complicated and emotionally draining.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 01/29/14 07:36 PM
Yes, we talked about it and it will be by the end of next month, and he is looking at apartments now. It's not so bad him being here, we get along fine as friends, just I'm ready to be on my own again.
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: Letting go - 01/30/14 04:39 AM
That must be a strange situation.

But I think Dr Harley would probably say that you have a much smaller chance of marital success just by cohabitating together
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Letting go - 01/30/14 04:55 AM
Originally Posted by Jedi_Knight
That must be a strange situation.

But I think Dr Harley would probably say that you have a much smaller chance of marital success just by cohabitating together
You're correct.
Living Together Before Marriage
Posted By: Jhamila Re: Letting go - 01/30/14 01:53 PM
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
It turned out it wasn't food poisoning, my mom had had a heart attack, but she's doing better now, she was in the hospital a few days and is now recovering back at home.

Nothing's new here, just waiting for my ex to move out. Then I'm going to take some extended time off before I start trying to date again. I am still actively limiting my communication with my ex H because every time I see him those what-ifs come back.

I like seeing your progress in the dating though, and turning a new leaf there!

So sorry, NED! My thoughts and prayers are with your Mom.

Thanks for keeping us updated. This is so hard, but I'm confident that you now have even more wisdom for next time around. The conflict-avoidance thing is super-difficult to see for some of us (me too) - because when someone is kind and non-confrontational it can feel like such a relief! Also, when dating, renter behavior is totally normal...I'm not going to share my deepest thoughts with someone I've just met. It takes a while - and a little deeper intimacy - to do that. Plus sometimes dating is pretty effortless, and neither of us really cares 'where' we go as long as we're together.

Maybe someone has more wisdom on the 'conflict-avoider' issue. I'm sure I don't have much.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 01/30/14 02:14 PM
Jedi I've already given up hope on this relationship, I broke up with him a few weeks ago and am just giving him time to find a place to live.

He wanted to move in very soon, but I had told him about the Renters' and Buyers' agreements and how it's better to wait for marriage to live together. But he was in a temporary situation living with his mom until she passed away, and then we got engaged, so I justified letting him move in, thinking well we're engaged so we're already buyers. But the way it all shook out made it harder for me to come to believe in him, it would have been better for me to wait until he was on former footing and not trying to fix the situation for him. My heart was in the right place.

Z, you're right, 'll have more wisdom next time. I'll wait until I'm in a better spot. The whole broken family thing really got to me and I just wanted to fix that. Turns out it takes a lot more time than I gave it to make good decisions.
Posted By: tccoastguard Re: Letting go - 02/03/14 10:53 AM
How are you doing over there NED? Is your mom doing any better?
Posted By: Jhamila Re: Letting go - 02/04/14 02:18 AM
Originally Posted by tccoastguard
How are you doing over there NED? Is your mom doing any better?

x2

Still thinking about you, NED. I know this grief won't go away overnight. frown
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 02/04/14 03:42 PM
Doing good over here, it's fun to read about your dating adventures! 35 minutes didn't sound like much of a haul but I guess it's all relative and I do see my friends that live closer more often than the one that lives a little further.

My mom is doing better too, thanks! Still very bruised but that will all heal. I haven't really gotten a chance to mourn my relationship ending because he's still here, but he's looking for a place so this chapter will soon be over.
Posted By: Jhamila Re: Letting go - 02/04/14 06:46 PM
Thanks for the update, NED. Glad your mom is better. smile looking forward to happier days ahead.
Posted By: tccoastguard Re: Letting go - 02/06/14 06:03 PM
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
Doing good over here, it's fun to read about your dating adventures! 35 minutes didn't sound like much of a haul but I guess it's all relative and I do see my friends that live closer more often than the one that lives a little further.

My mom is doing better too, thanks! Still very bruised but that will all heal. I haven't really gotten a chance to mourn my relationship ending because he's still here, but he's looking for a place so this chapter will soon be over.


Thanks! Yeah, the dating adventures are interesting... I think quite a few people at work are living vicariously though me and don't want me to settle on anyone quite yet. The distance thing is relative; I was used to commuting two hours each way when I was working in Washington DC so 35 minutes isn't a big deal to me at all. Easy drive!

I'm glad your mom is doing better. Please make sure to take care of yourself during all of this because you may feel a completely different range of emotions when he leaves than you do now. There's finality to leaving that you may not appreciate until it happens. Not saying that's how it's going to be but I felt that when it happened to me (I made the mistake of living with the accountant I dated for a short while). I hope you're doing ok and things are starting to look up for you!
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 02/08/14 03:21 AM
Yes, all relative!

I've been working on walking and doing exercise to take good care of myself. My family is really close and we have the new baby so between that and my mom getting better the extended family has been getting together every week. So we're doing okay. The way my ex hasn't moved out of the house and stopped paying towards the bills here really makes me feel like I should have picked up on this lack of character sooner. I'm going to take some time off and regroup.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Letting go - 02/08/14 03:46 AM
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
Yes, all relative!

I've been working on walking and doing exercise to take good care of myself. My family is really close and we have the new baby so between that and my mom getting better the extended family has been getting together every week. So we're doing okay. The way my ex hasn't moved out of the house and stopped paying towards the bills here really makes me feel like I should have picked up on this lack of character sooner. I'm going to take some time off and regroup.
Why isn't he out? When will you be getting him out?
Posted By: Jhamila Re: Letting go - 02/10/14 01:36 PM
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
Yes, all relative!

I've been working on walking and doing exercise to take good care of myself. My family is really close and we have the new baby so between that and my mom getting better the extended family has been getting together every week. So we're doing okay. The way my ex hasn't moved out of the house and stopped paying towards the bills here really makes me feel like I should have picked up on this lack of character sooner. I'm going to take some time off and regroup.

NED - please don't blame yourself. He must've been doing lots of things right for you to have fallen in love with him. The fact that he isn't living up to his duties now DOES say something about his character...but he was likely hiding it very well. This is not your fault, dear. (Are you hard on yourself? Hm.....sounds like we have something in common!)

It will be good to regroup, and only you know when your heart is ready to try again. You're a wonderful, caring woman (I can tell by all your posts), and I'm sure you'll find someone worthy of you.

I am glad your family is a source of strength for you! I pray you are comforted daily.

Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 02/10/14 07:02 PM
Yes, Z, I'm trying to remember to keep my head high. I thought he left, but he came back, so I'm going to have to take some bigger measures like having the locks re-keyed. I hate that it's come to this. The upside is I won't be waffling about reconciliation.
Posted By: tccoastguard Re: Letting go - 02/10/14 10:00 PM
Originally Posted by Zhamila
It will be good to regroup, and only you know when your heart is ready to try again. You're a wonderful, caring woman (I can tell by all your posts), and I'm sure you'll find someone worthy of you.


I agree with Z completely regarding the above sentiment. I remember reading your posts years ago when I was going through my own "stuff" and thinking how incredibly calm, caring and strong you were/are. You deserve someone who recognizes and cherishes that. Do what you have to do now to get this guy out of the house and then heal. Someone wonderful and deserving of you is around the corner.
Posted By: Jhamila Re: Letting go - 02/11/14 02:44 AM
Originally Posted by tccoastguard
Originally Posted by Zhamila
It will be good to regroup, and only you know when your heart is ready to try again. You're a wonderful, caring woman (I can tell by all your posts), and I'm sure you'll find someone worthy of you.


I agree with Z completely regarding the above sentiment. I remember reading your posts years ago when I was going through my own "stuff" and thinking how incredibly calm, caring and strong you were/are. You deserve someone who recognizes and cherishes that. Do what you have to do now to get this guy out of the house and then heal. Someone wonderful and deserving of you is around the corner.

x2!!

Sorry he won't leave, NED. That stinks. You're right...at least now you'll have no doubts or second thoughts. shocked
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Letting go - 02/11/14 05:26 AM
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
Yes, Z, I'm trying to remember to keep my head high. I thought he left, but he came back, so I'm going to have to take some bigger measures like having the locks re-keyed. I hate that it's come to this. The upside is I won't be waffling about reconciliation.
So he moved all his stuff out and then just came back? Does he pay any rent to you?

Can't you have the police remove him? It's your house, correct?
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: Letting go - 02/11/14 05:57 AM
NED,
Try to rent some good comedy movies to laugh this week.
Can you do this?
Posted By: Jhamila Re: Letting go - 02/11/14 06:54 AM
Originally Posted by Jedi_Knight
NED,
Try to rent some good comedy movies to laugh this week.
Can you do this?

Nacho Libre! All the way! laugh
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 02/12/14 04:02 AM
He moved some stuff, I figured enough stuff, but then yes was back within 2 days. He was paying a set amount every month towards the bills but hasn't paid that in 2 months now. I have been calm and I totally get that this is really hard for him, his eggs were all in this basket here and he messed it up. But I think he thought that meant it was okay with me that he was taking his time with things. I had to stop trying to pretend that I'm not upset, and I reminded him I never agreed that he could stay without paying towards the bills, and that I need to know when he will be out, and he commuted to being out this week. So I'm almost done.

I like the idea of some good comedies. OD and I saw the Monuments Men this weekend and somehow they found some comedy in such a serious subject. I've never seen Nacho Libre, sounds great!
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Letting go - 02/12/14 04:49 AM
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
He moved some stuff, I figured enough stuff, but then yes was back within 2 days. He was paying a set amount every month towards the bills but hasn't paid that in 2 months now. I have been calm and I totally get that this is really hard for him, his eggs were all in this basket here and he messed it up. But I think he thought that meant it was okay with me that he was taking his time with things. I had to stop trying to pretend that I'm not upset, and I reminded him I never agreed that he could stay without paying towards the bills, and that I need to know when he will be out, and he commuted to being out this week. So I'm almost done.

I like the idea of some good comedies. OD and I saw the Monuments Men this weekend and somehow they found some comedy in such a serious subject. I've never seen Nacho Libre, sounds great!
What will happen if he doesn't follow through on his commitment?
Posted By: SusieQ Re: Letting go - 02/13/14 12:02 AM
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
He moved some stuff, I figured enough stuff, but then yes was back within 2 days. He was paying a set amount every month towards the bills but hasn't paid that in 2 months now. I have been calm and I totally get that this is really hard for him, his eggs were all in this basket here and he messed it up. But I think he thought that meant it was okay with me that he was taking his time with things. I had to stop trying to pretend that I'm not upset, and I reminded him I never agreed that he could stay without paying towards the bills, and that I need to know when he will be out, and he commuted to being out this week. So I'm almost done.

I like the idea of some good comedies. OD and I saw the Monuments Men this weekend and somehow they found some comedy in such a serious subject. I've never seen Nacho Libre, sounds great!
What will happen if he doesn't follow through on his commitment?

I think you are being too nice and need to kick him out, now.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 02/13/14 03:26 AM
He's out. I had a talk with him Monday night and said it is starting to feel like he is taking advantage. He was out Tuesday without a word. When he wasn't here tonight, I texted him, and he said he'd be back Sunday to get his boxes. What a sour note to end on, two months ago we were planning our life together. But I didn't have much more patience for the situation left in me.
Posted By: tccoastguard Re: Letting go - 02/13/14 04:43 AM
That's great news NED, even if it seems sour right now. The healing can begin.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 02/13/14 02:22 PM
It is, I am feeling both the missing what I lost and a big relief, too. I'm glad something I said helped when you were going through a rough time. And now look at you, with new adventures!
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Letting go - 02/13/14 08:28 PM
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
He's out. I had a talk with him Monday night and said it is starting to feel like he is taking advantage. He was out Tuesday without a word. When he wasn't here tonight, I texted him, and he said he'd be back Sunday to get his boxes. What a sour note to end on, two months ago we were planning our life together. But I didn't have much more patience for the situation left in me.
Why is he waiting until Sunday to get the rest? Is this another ploy to come back after "a few days" when he knows you will be low and missing him?
Posted By: SusieQ Re: Letting go - 02/13/14 08:30 PM
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
He's out. I had a talk with him Monday night and said it is starting to feel like he is taking advantage. He was out Tuesday without a word. When he wasn't here tonight, I texted him, and he said he'd be back Sunday to get his boxes. What a sour note to end on, two months ago we were planning our life together. But I didn't have much more patience for the situation left in me.
Why is he waiting until Sunday to get the rest? Is this another ploy to come back after "a few days" when he knows you will be low and missing him?

Yeah, I would box it up and leave it outside for him. And don't be there when he comes by...
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 02/14/14 01:41 AM
Oh man I'm low and missing what I had thought we had already! Most people don't ask why we broke up, but tonight my neighbor asked why, and I told him, and he's like, and that bothered you?! I had to explain well it's important to me to trust someone who is going to be around my kids that much. But I guess like if i don't have kids to protect I'm not worth being honest to? I sure disagree with that. And I'm grateful to have places where I can talk to folks who want to set a marriage up for lasting success!
Posted By: tccoastguard Re: Letting go - 02/14/14 01:50 AM
I'm sorry you're feeling so low tonight NED. You are worth being honest to and even if most don't know why that's important, you've been gifted with the knowledge to recognize that it is. I know this sucks but it will get better. I will absolutely pray for you to find peace amidst all of this.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 02/14/14 02:17 AM
tc, yes, that's for sure, I really like how you all keep encouraging folks not to just settle for something that makes you uneasy. Thanks for the prayers too!
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Letting go - 02/14/14 03:02 AM
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
Oh man I'm low and missing what I had thought we had already! Most people don't ask why we broke up, but tonight my neighbor asked why, and I told him, and he's like, and that bothered you?! I had to explain well it's important to me to trust someone who is going to be around my kids that much. But I guess like if i don't have kids to protect I'm not worth being honest to? I sure disagree with that. And I'm grateful to have places where I can talk to folks who want to set a marriage up for lasting success!
NED,

This is what I worry so much about for you, that you missing him will cause you to let your guard down and he knows this.

I so agree with Susie. Can you please box up his stuff and put it out and tell him to come pick it up at what time you set and then don't be there when he comes?

When will you change the locks? Are you still texting him? Will you be changing all your contact information?
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 02/14/14 02:07 PM
BH I my guess is that he's waiting until Sunday because his sister is moving that day and then he can move the things once, to her new place, instead of her place now and then move it again Sunday. I am planning to get the locks rekeyed when I'm home Saturday. I already called the alarm company yesterday and had his code removed, so he can't come here without setting that off and I would get a call. So that's why I was thinking to be there Sunday. He still has lawn equipment here and we haven't discussed that yet. I can ask him to put it in storage with his sister's things, but I had been thinking he would probably say it was okay if I kept it here and used it if I asked him.

I had refinanced his car loan for his truck to add my name back when we got engaged, to get him a lower interest rate and monthly payment, so I wasn't planning to cut contact altogether.

I really don't feel in any danger of getting back together with him. I know I dragged things out with my ex-H forever but this isn't the same bond we have at all.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Letting go - 02/14/14 04:51 PM
You aren't going to get your name off the truck? Any other financial obligations that he's leaving all on you?

Has he even offered to get the loan in his own name so you don't have anymore ties? This would be an action that would show he is being responsible and growing up.

Are you planning on giving him another chance? What about the wedding? Any bills he's left you with from the wedding?

For the next time what would you do different? What have you learned from this?
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Letting go - 02/14/14 05:22 PM
NED,

I can't express my concern enough that I think being there when he comes and gets his stuff is just away to keep you sucked back into him. I think it's a bad idea to see him on Sunday. I think you are going to have a difficult time.

He did it once too you and now he's laying the plan to do it again.


This neighbor that is talking to you about this, is he married?
Posted By: SusieQ Re: Letting go - 02/14/14 05:26 PM
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
You aren't going to get your name off the truck? Any other financial obligations that he's leaving all on you?

Has he even offered to get the loan in his own name so you don't have anymore ties? This would be an action that would show he is being responsible and growing up.

Are you planning on giving him another chance? What about the wedding? Any bills he's left you with from the wedding?

For the next time what would you do different? What have you learned from this?

Good advice and great questions...
Posted By: SusieQ Re: Letting go - 02/14/14 05:29 PM
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
This neighbor that is talking to you about this, is he married?

I was wondering the same thing so I look forward to seeing the answer....
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 02/15/14 04:01 AM
My neighbor is my financial advisor, so he knows a ton about me already. His wife is one of my close friends, but I wasn't able to talk to her yet and figured he would fill her in until I saw her. He did, she sent me some nice texts today! Believe me I am super supportive of their marriage and used to babysit for them so they could get time alone.

The truck is the only joint obligation. He didn't offer to get a loan in his name alone. He is crying poor mouth at the moment but when he's back on his feet I will ask him to refinance to get my name off. But I can't force that. At least he's been paying on time.

I am not planning to give him another chance. Besides my concerns about his character, beyond what I've written here, my OD told me after we broke up that she had never really connected with him. I think after breaking up their home the least I can do is find a partner the kids would connect with too.

The wedding is off, I'm out about 1000 for deposit on our honeymoon cruise, and the plane tickets. Although I can probably get a credit for the plane tickets.

For the next time I don't think I would move in together before marriage. I would not commit to dating exclusively up front. I don't think I would do online dating again for quite some time. I would not get engaged until 2 years. I wouldn't get serious too fast. I'd introduce him to my family before I decided to go exclusive. Not to give them a veto but their input is relevant. I would do more RC and FC stuff and less DS together. Does that sound like a good start?
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: Letting go - 02/15/14 04:05 AM
Yes,
Dr Harley is very opposed to cohabitation before marriage because most of those relationships end in divorce.

(if you watch any daytime talk shows, with lie detectors, drama, etc it is almost always a renter couple and extremely rarely a married one)
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 02/16/14 05:45 PM
Brain, Susie, it went well today. L did leave some boxes here but in a storage space under the stairs that I never see. We had just a short light conversation "how have you been fine thanks how about you fine thanks" you'd have with your dental assistant and that was it, and I got all my keys and garage door opener back. I'm not left sad and down, I have a day full of good plans smile
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: Letting go - 02/16/14 08:04 PM
NED,

I would just set his stuff on the sidewalk and call the bank and get your name off the loan.

You need to have a clean break from him and not draw this out for months or possibly years
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: Letting go - 02/16/14 08:04 PM
Most men would be hesitant to become involved with a woman that had belongings of her ex boyfriend in her home, and her name on his truck loan
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 02/16/14 08:38 PM
Jedi, I've been through all this and far more with my sister, the bank isn't going to take my name off the existing loan. It is until December 2015. L is struggling with some money issues, and isn't going to be willing to pay to refinance the existing loan, and I don't know whether he'd even be approved.

No one has asked me something like that, are all of the boxes in your storage room yours, or do some belong to an ex. Although the first time I had a date over to my house after my divorce, he did ask if that was a photo of my ex on the mantle wink It's not there anymore.

I didn't make a stink about the boxes because literally all his eggs were in this basket here and he is not settled. He is making do has best as he can in a temporary situation.
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: Letting go - 02/17/14 02:28 AM
Ned the fact is mini storage places exist for circumstances such as this.
It is not unreasonable for you to insist he move out (him and his stuff)
He chose to lie to you and be dishonest and he is not a victim
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Letting go - 02/17/14 03:12 AM
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
Brain, Susie, it went well today. L did leave some boxes here but in a storage space under the stairs that I never see. We had just a short light conversation "how have you been fine thanks how about you fine thanks" you'd have with your dental assistant and that was it, and I got all my keys and garage door opener back. I'm not left sad and down, I have a day full of good plans smile
I'm so happy to hear this NED.

What's the plan for him to retrieve the rest of his boxes?

What about the loan?

Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Letting go - 02/17/14 03:18 AM
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
For the next time I don't think I would move in together before marriage. I would not commit to dating exclusively up front. I don't think I would do online dating again for quite some time. I would not get engaged until 2 years. I wouldn't get serious too fast. I'd introduce him to my family before I decided to go exclusive. Not to give them a veto but their input is relevant. I would do more RC and FC stuff and less DS together. Does that sound like a good start?

I think this an excellent list. I would definitely not move in before marriage.

I think if you follow these concepts from Dr. Harley you're bound to find an excellent buyer.

I would also try the "30 dates". How many dates did you have after your divorce before you started to date L?
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 02/17/14 03:02 PM
I'm sure I'll get back to thinking about an excellent buyer some day, I really want to get my ducks in a row first a lot better. But then yes 30 dates sounds like a welcome reprieve from my internal pressure trying to make something serious.

I think I dated about 12 guys before my first marriage, and then like 3 before L.
Posted By: black_raven Re: Letting go - 02/17/14 07:12 PM
If L's stuff is not in your way, I would keep them given that you are on the car loan still. It could serve as leverage later. I don't know if there is anything of value in these boxes but I'd keep them for the time being...as collateral.

NED, I would look into getting the truck re-fied. Interest rates are still low and there isn't much of a cost to them...like a mortgage. Are you on title? As a registered owner, you are liable for anything that involves that truck. Make sure auto insurance is in effect.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 02/18/14 02:12 PM
I got into that situation being on the title, with no insurance, and then a 3 car wreck, with my sister, and she was at fault. So thankfully I am not on L's title. If the refi costs are low and I offered to pay them I don't see why he wouldn't refi in his name unless it meant the payment was going to go way up. I can look into that, I'm ready for a clean slate!
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: Letting go - 02/18/14 03:13 PM
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
I got into that situation being on the title, with no insurance, and then a 3 car wreck, with my sister, and she was at fault. So thankfully I am not on L's title. If the refi costs are low and I offered to pay them I don't see why he wouldn't refi in his name unless it meant the payment was going to go way up. I can look into that, I'm ready for a clean slate!

You may need to consult an attorney about this.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 02/18/14 07:24 PM
That's a great idea, and I did talk to my attorney when my sister started missing payments on her jeep. He said there was nothing I could do, I had agreed to take on that debt.

But I can approach L about a refinance, see if he's open to it. He may not qualify though.
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: Letting go - 02/18/14 08:18 PM
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
That's a great idea, and I did talk to my attorney when my sister started missing payments on her jeep. He said there was nothing I could do, I had agreed to take on that debt.

But I can approach L about a refinance, see if he's open to it. He may not qualify though.

I'm wonder if there is a legal argument to be made that he made false promises to you, insofar as he misrepresented himself as being unmarried and it was under those conditions that you agreed to sign a loan.
I would ask an attorney to write a letter to him demanding that he refinance the vehicle promptly; many times just an attorney letter will scare someone into taking action
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 02/19/14 05:16 PM
Jedi, thanks for the ideas. I am definitely taking them all in. I can see the benefit to a clean slate. I really should have asked more questions along the way to make sure I wasn't getting in over my head, a plan to back out if it didn't work out. He recently had a drastic drop to his salary and it's not realistic given his current income that he could get refinanced until his situation changes. But he got certified two months ago in a new field and is actively working on getting a better job in his new field.
Posted By: tccoastguard Re: Letting go - 02/25/14 12:13 PM
How are you doing NED? Keeping busy?
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 02/25/14 05:00 PM
I am, I meant to pop by your thread and say good for you, finding someone you really connect with smile I'm kinda too busy right now, but it's all really good stuff. My OD got accepted and enrolled for the fall in her favorite college. She also decided to move in full time with her Dad, a few blocks from my house, because it's a lot of work trying to keep clean clothes, homework and all that at 2 houses. She had decided that a couple of years ago when she was mad at me, so I've had a lot of time to get used to the idea, and she says she'll still come have dinner with us the weeks YD is at my house.

YD finally got her grades up, so she's off punishment after being cooped up in the house for over a month. We were out all weekend smile I have a big family here and I see them a lot too.

Even staying busy, I do miss L. That's the downside to UA time, we loved doing everything together, so now everywhere I go it's not the same as when he was here. But I'm active in Alanon, and have two ladies I'm helping to work the steps, so it's a lot of practical reminders to check my intent, and I haven't had a legitimate reason to call him yet, so I haven't. When I do want to call him, I tell myself if it's not urgent, wait until tomorrow to see if I still want to call, and by the next day I'm okay. This is giving me good practice in detaching more completely from my ex husband, too.
Posted By: tccoastguard Re: Letting go - 02/26/14 03:50 AM
Hey NED, congrats on your OD's acceptance into the school she wants! That's a big deal! In regard to the other, are you ok having her not spend overnights at your place or is it just not worth the fight at this point?

I understand what you mean concerning missing L. Maybe it's not enough to stay busy; perhaps the kind of busy makes a difference. Perhaps it's time to cultivate recreational companions that you can do fun things with. The intention being that recreational companions will meet that casual need and missing L will not be as large a deal. I don't know what you have time for but I have a feeling rekindling a friendship or two might go a long way towards recovering from this particular loss.

Thanks for the kind wishes; I'm optimistically cautious! I know things can change on a dime.
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: Letting go - 02/26/14 04:22 AM
NED,

I understand you are in Alanon.
I occasionally attend meetings.

What contact do you have with your ex husband?
As a general rule, Harley advocates No Contact between divorces.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 02/26/14 05:11 AM
TC, I'm totally okay with it, I understand not wanting to have to wash her clothes at two houses and all that. We're very close, so I'm not worried yet.

I am very blessed with great friends here, and they have been great about spending time together. I'm going with a work friend to a concert tomorrow night, and went with another fried, her granddaughter and my daughter to a carnival Saturday. We had a big get together yesterday with my family for my nephew's first birthday. So I guess I just have to keep showing up and waiting for it to sink in. Oh man I forget things can change on a dime, I hope they don't this time!

Hi Jedi, I've heard about NC while in Plan B, but hadn't heard of long term NC. Any ideas where I could read more about that? I did go NC for a vert short period of time when I was very heartsick about him and it helped. But especially now in the meantime phase it's very helpful to have him around the corner when I need help with something like picking up YD if I'm stuck at work.
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: Letting go - 02/26/14 05:23 AM
How helpful is contact with him if you need Alanon to detach from him?
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 02/26/14 02:46 PM
I didn't start going to Alanon to detach from him, but to try to save my marriage and my family. I found I could save myself and my kids anyway. I hear you, I check my intent before calling him for anything, and most of the time can figure out how to rig things up well enough myself smile But there are some limited things we still do all together like celebrated DD18's birthday last week.
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: Letting go - 02/26/14 03:22 PM
Is he an alcoholic?
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 02/26/14 03:28 PM
Maybe like stage 1 or something. I wouldn't agree for the kids to go there if I thought his drinking put them in any danger. OD drives when they go out. YD knows she can call me whenever and I'll pick her up no questions asked.
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: Letting go - 02/26/14 03:45 PM
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
Maybe like stage 1 or something. I wouldn't agree for the kids to go there if I thought his drinking put them in any danger. OD drives when they go out. YD knows she can call me whenever and I'll pick her up no questions asked.

I dont know what stage 1 is.
Is he watching a child while intoxicated?
Posted By: LearnedTooLate Re: Letting go - 02/26/14 03:58 PM
Yes, if you are a trained drug and alcohol and substance abuse counselor (DASA) and have all the truth from the alcoholic about their drinking history and patterns you could describe which stage they are currently in, BUT alcoholism is a Progressive disease and Will advance to the next 2 stages.

The bottom line is:

A) He IS an alcoholic

Or

B) He is NOT an alcoholic

What you just did by minimizing the impact of whether or not he is an alcoholic is called Minimizing and Rationalization.

I hope that helps you to see your own denial and blinders you have learned to put on to avoid the inherent factual accuracy of whether he is or isn't an alcoholic.

LTL
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 02/26/14 04:32 PM
Quote
Is he watching a child while intoxicated?
Yes. I don't like it, and the kids know that they can come here whenever they want regardless of whose week it is. The are both over here a lot.

LTL, I'm not trying to minimize the impact. B and I were both children of alcoholics and I know the impact is profound. I don't disagree that it will progress, that's what the disease does. And I'm not around, so for all I know it's already progressing.
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: Letting go - 02/26/14 04:45 PM
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
Quote
Is he watching a child while intoxicated?
Yes. I don't like it, and the kids know that they can come here whenever they want regardless of whose week it is. The are both over here a lot.

LTL, I'm not trying to minimize the impact. B and I were both children of alcoholics and I know the impact is profound. I don't disagree that it will progress, that's what the disease does. And I'm not around, so for all I know it's already progressing.


Children should not be around an intoxicated person.
Dr. Harley would encourage you to take legal steps to prevent this
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 02/26/14 05:00 PM
As far as I understand it I don't have a right to modify visitation over him being intoxicated. When we first divorced he stopped drinking the weeks they were there, but I don't know how long that lasted. The kids lived like this many years while we were married, and it doesn't alarm them. I've taken them to Alateen so they can understand they didn't cause this and it's not up to them to fix it. OD has an IC, I can talk to him about what the options are, maybe he can talk to her about it being a better option for her to live here full-time.
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: Letting go - 02/26/14 05:04 PM
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
As far as I understand it I don't have a right to modify visitation over him being intoxicated. When we first divorced he stopped drinking the weeks they were there, but I don't know how long that lasted. The kids lived like this many years while we were married, and it doesn't alarm them. I've taken them to Alateen so they can understand they didn't cause this and it's not up to them to fix it. OD has an IC, I can talk to him about what the options are, maybe he can talk to her about it being a better option for her to live here full-time.

Yes you absolutely do have a right to bring this to the Courts attention!
An intoxicated person is not fit to supervise children, irregardless of whether or not the child goes to Alanon.

I would report it to Children Services and ask your attorney to order a drug and alcohol test; file for modification of the custody so you have full custody.
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: Letting go - 02/26/14 05:05 PM
The 18 year old can live wherever she wants; I'm referring to the minor child
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 02/26/14 07:55 PM
I will talk to OD's IC and see if he has any suggestions. I called CPS about my FOO and it never did any good, so I am reluctant to go that route. Over a year ago when my YD talked to me about it, I talked to my ex about going back to not drinking when the kids are there, but he said it's not a problem.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 02/26/14 10:26 PM
I don't mean to sound like I have just been sitting in denial all this time. We have been to 4 MCs, 2 FCs, and OD to 3 ICs, including her current one, and I've mentioned to all of them that B's daily drinking is a problem and I was concerned especially because OD had a spell with problem drinking as well. None of them said I should call CPS here or called CPS themselves. I know CPS does great work with kids in danger and if I thought he was driving them intoxicated I would have called already and he knows this.
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: Letting go - 02/26/14 11:00 PM
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
I will talk to OD's IC and see if he has any suggestions. I called CPS about my FOO and it never did any good, so I am reluctant to go that route. Over a year ago when my YD talked to me about it, I talked to my ex about going back to not drinking when the kids are there, but he said it's not a problem.

Of course he doesn't think its a problem. Alcoholism is irrational. Expecting him to be concerned is not very rational either.

I would call an attorney for guidance.
Dr Harley is very opposed to kids being raised by active alcoholics
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: Letting go - 02/26/14 11:02 PM
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
I don't mean to sound like I have just been sitting in denial all this time. We have been to 4 MCs, 2 FCs, and OD to 3 ICs, including her current one, and I've mentioned to all of them that B's daily drinking is a problem and I was concerned especially because OD had a spell with problem drinking as well. None of them said I should call CPS here or called CPS themselves. I know CPS does great work with kids in danger and if I thought he was driving them intoxicated I would have called already and he knows this.

Your teenage daughter was exposed to alcoholism and is now abusing alcohol.
How long until the youngest daughter does the same?
It is YOUR responsibility to protect your child
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Letting go - 02/27/14 04:51 AM
NED,

I hope you take Jedi's advice to heart. Have you ever contacted Dr. Harley?
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 02/27/14 05:14 AM
I haven't contacted Dr. H. I had a session with Steve in 2006 and my ex and I each had a session with him in 2008 but somehow I didn't register my ex's drinking as the pressing issue at those points and neither of us mentioned it.

I do take Jedi's words to heart. Somehow it is coming off here like I have been just sweeping this under the rug, but this is something that I have taken seriously for quite some time. My OD doesn't currently drink at all, she has been passing the screens she gets in the youth program she is in. She's been dealt a rough hand not just the drinking, and when she first went to the IC it wasn't one of the issues she was asking for help with; she had some bigger mental health struggles. We have a session tomorrow and I can talk to the IC again then.
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: Letting go - 02/27/14 05:18 AM
Thats good but you need to focus on removing your youngest daughter from being under the care and custody of your ex husband while intoxicated.
You need to visit an attorney
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: Letting go - 02/27/14 05:21 AM
I have 3 young children close to your daughters age and 2 years after divorce, I continue to fight legally to ensure they are not exposed to addicts or alcoholism.
KNock on wood...to date I have been successful/

I have constant court hearings but this is a serious matter.

Harley often references a study where a vast majority of alcoholic fathers admitted to sexually mollesting their daughters while intoxicated.

I think Harley would encourage you to contact your attorney asap
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 02/27/14 05:40 AM
Jedi as someone who was molested by an alcoholic stepparent I can tell you my kids are not being molested. My radar is super sharp on that. And I made sure to prevent them being around B's friends when they were drinking because I know how molesters look for kids who aren't being supervised.

I think that's great that you have been able to get full custody of your kids. We had an amicable divorce and I felt comfortable for while he wasn't drinking while the kids were there, until that changed. Then it seemed to calm down again, and then that changed again. But don't worry I'll follow up.
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: Letting go - 02/27/14 05:53 AM
You cant battle the alcohol; it will win
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: Letting go - 02/27/14 05:54 AM
When will you follow up?
Will you contact an attorney tomorrow and tell them that your child insider the care of someone intoxicated? Will you ask them to file for emergency custody?
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 02/27/14 02:16 PM
Don't worry, Jedi, I've given up the battle long ago. I'm going to talk with OD's IC at her session today.

I can put in a call to my attorney today, to clarify what YD's rights are. I would not file for emergency custody, like I said these kids aren't in danger or I would have already taken action. The situation has been like this on and off her whole life, so it is not a sudden crisis. I don't like the situation but I have taken the steps I thought reasonable to mitigate it, like FC and Alateen after the divorce to help the kids adjust and help them learn to make good choices for themselves.

Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: Letting go - 02/27/14 02:45 PM
NED, this is what Dr. Harley recommended to me in a case with my alcoholic MIL:

Originally Posted by Jedi_Knight
Copy of email sent to Dr Harley.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.


I have a question.�
For a third of my marriage, my alcoholic mother-in-law lived with us.�
After divorce in July 2012 I allowed my children to continue visiting her for 2 hours a week at a local fast good restaurant.�
Lately she has accompanied us to the skating rink.�
Last week I picked her up and she smelled like she had been drinking.�
How should I set boundaries with her? Am I morally obligated to allow her to visit her grand kids?
Her daughter (my ex wife's sister) told me that she cut off all contact with this woman (her mom) and will not allow her any contact with her kids. Should I do the same?

Personally I do not like her. During my pending divorce she participating in my wife's concealing the whereabouts of my children, in violation of a court order.�
The children like her and she seems to show care for them but I do not want them to be emotionally dependent on an alcoholic relative, nor do I want them to listen to her lies.�

Can you please offer me guidance?
Thank you

Originally Posted by Jedi_Knight
Email from dr Harley:

I apologize for having not read all of the other posts you sent. �You are right that you can refuse to let your children see their grandmother, so take that problem off the table. �I suggest that you discuss the problem with the one supervising your wife�s visitation. �If the children are to be told by you that they can�t see their grandmother, you should have some backup from a respected person. �In the final analysis, the grandmother may be encouraged to clean up her act if she ever wants to see her grandchildren, which would be good for the grandmother. �If the supervisor feels that it�s okay for your children to be with their grandmother while she�s drunk, you have a problem greater than the grandmother.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 02/27/14 03:39 PM
I'm really sorry you all had to go through that with their Grandma. Definitely if B got to a point where he's drunk in the middle of the day when the kids are with him I would have to look at all this again. I think he can keep it together for at least another 5 years until YD is 18, and if that changes, it would get obvious like it had in the past.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 02/27/14 09:42 PM
Jedi I was really surprised at what my attorney said, that I can go for custody modification for my younger one because he has been intoxicated when watching them, even though he hasn't been driving them intoxicated. I've been in Alanon for years and heard over and over that nothing could be done unless there is violence or DUI. Thanks for talking to me even when I'm hard-headed.

I still want to try to resolve this amicably, off to go talk to the IC together.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Letting go - 02/28/14 04:19 PM
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
I haven't contacted Dr. H. I had a session with Steve in 2006 and my ex and I each had a session with him in 2008 but somehow I didn't register my ex's drinking as the pressing issue at those points and neither of us mentioned it.

I do take Jedi's words to heart. Somehow it is coming off here like I have been just sweeping this under the rug, but this is something that I have taken seriously for quite some time. My OD doesn't currently drink at all, she has been passing the screens she gets in the youth program she is in. She's been dealt a rough hand not just the drinking, and when she first went to the IC it wasn't one of the issues she was asking for help with; she had some bigger mental health struggles. We have a session tomorrow and I can talk to the IC again then.
Will you at the very least, email Dr. Harley? He answers questions all the time about addictions, children. Not just about infidelity.
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: Letting go - 02/28/14 04:32 PM
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
Jedi I was really surprised at what my attorney said, that I can go for custody modification for my younger one because he has been intoxicated when watching them, even though he hasn't been driving them intoxicated. I've been in Alanon for years and heard over and over that nothing could be done unless there is violence or DUI. Thanks for talking to me even when I'm hard-headed.

I still want to try to resolve this amicably, off to go talk to the IC together.

my experience with Alanon is that many remain in a victim mindset and can't move on.
Your case is a good example: Most people would say that a child cannot be supervised by an intoxicated adult. If the police observed it, they would call children services and take the child into custody. Most of the public knows this.

Yet you heard in alanon.."cant...cant ...cant"

Technically, if you knowingly allow children to be in the care of an impaired adult and dont take action it is considered child neglect.

I would not talk to the ex husband; I would instruct the attorney to file for custody and allow the attorney to do all the talking. The attorney knows what to do and you dont.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 02/28/14 07:07 PM
Quote
If the police observed it, they would call children services and take the child into custody. Most of the public knows this.

Jedi, I called CPS, my ex called the police, multiple times, to try to get help for my then-young siblings in my violent alcoholic FOO. They asked the kids some questions, and left without doing anything, not even offer parenting classes or some kind of follow-up. So I do not blame my "can't" on Al-anon.

I spoke to a good friend last night who had been a GAL for years, and recommended that I not file for modification of shared custody. That it is a difficult thing to prove, and my kids don't see it as a problem. OD's IC didn't seem alarmed, and B insisted that he is modelling healthy drinking behavior by asking OD to drive when he's been drinking. I have a session scheduled with my IC tomorrow and I'll talk to him about it.

And Brain I'll email Dr. H.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Letting go - 02/28/14 08:17 PM
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
And Brain I'll email Dr. H.

Fantastic, let us know when you hear back.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 03/03/14 12:30 AM
Brain, I have the email ready, and was looking for the email address, is it mbradio@marriagebuilders.com?
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Letting go - 03/03/14 02:19 AM
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
Brain, I have the email ready, and was looking for the email address, is it mbradio@marriagebuilders.com?
That's it.

Let us know how it goes. smile
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 03/03/14 06:53 PM
Thanks Brain, he already responded!

Originally Posted by Ned
Hi, I have been an active member on the MB forum since 2005, I post as NewEveryDay over there. I tried to save my marriage, but my ex's drinking made it impossible to resolve our other issues together. The posters over there gave me a ton of support and ideas trying to save my marriage, and then afterwords, and I am very grateful for that resource you have made available. In my first month joining MB, I was encouraged to try Al-anon, and that has been a big help too. When we divorced, I agreed to 50 50 shared custody, which is the norm here in Florida. BrainHurts encouraged me to write to you, because they said that you have cautioned folks not to leave their kids with someone intoxicated. My daughters are 12 and 18, so I guess we are talking about the younger one here.

I talked with a friend who is a Guardian Ad Litem, and she said it is very difficult to prove that one parent is intoxicated. He doesn't drive with them, he has my older daughter drive. He starts drinking in the evening with dinner, and my daughter is pretty self-sufficient with her evening routine. I am reluctant to go for modified custody because the kids don't think there is a problem and would describe it how he does, that he has a couple of drinks with and after dinner.


Thanks for reading,
[Ned]

Originally Posted by Dr. H
Hi [Ned],

The study that BrainHurts was referring to was done in Iowa in the 1980s. They found that alcoholics that were intoxicated while being left alone with their children had a 70% chance of molesting at least one of them. I�ve counseled many women who were molested by their fathers while he was intoxicated, and he can�t remember any of it. While that study and my experience are not enough to prevent your husband from having them over for his share of visitation, your daughters should both be warned that when he�s intoxicated, they might be in danger, and to let you know if he starts doing anything �weird.� I doubt that he will let himself get intoxicated while he is with them, and a drink with and after dinner wouldn�t do it. There�s nothing much you can do about it until something actually happens.

Best wishes,
Dr. Harley

I thanked him for his response, and agree that watchful waiting for now sounds appropriate. Having a family meeting with OD's IC was helpful last week, it reminds him that there are folks looking out for these kids. And the kids know they can come to me with any issues, that I am looking out for them and not just looking to keep the peace at any cost. I have had the conversation about reaching out if they see anything weird, but since it's come up it's a good time to have that conversation again.

Brain, Jedi, thanks for talking this out with me. I have had some lingering guilt over this time, and you help me feel more at peace. It is a reasonable question I've gotten over the years, why get yourself to a better place but leave your kids stuck there so much. So it helps me to remember that the kids, especially my older one, know they have choices, and they aren't stuck, and I haven't swept it under the rug and pretend it's all good.
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: Letting go - 03/03/14 07:04 PM
NED,

The situation you described to Dr. Harley is not what you described on this forum.

You said here that he is INTOXICATED, to the point of legal intoxication because someone has to drive him around.

Your email to Dr Harley made it sound like he has a couple drinks in the evening.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 03/03/14 07:18 PM
Jedi, I didn't leave out that he has OD drive for him. I said if you ask the kids, they repeat back the story they hear from their dad, even though when I was there I could see him getting intoxicated over the course of the evening. I am not trying to minimize the issue, just be realistic.
Posted By: LearnedTooLate Re: Letting go - 03/03/14 08:28 PM
As i read your letter to Dr. Harley, it sure sounded like you did not paint the same picture you have relayed in your posts and made the "Minor" couple of drinks sound so minimal, that you actually made your ex sound responsible by having someone else drive, even when they "Only" had a couple of drinks.

His reply probably would have been drastically different if you portrayed the drinking episodes as we have heard it.

It seems like you wanted to evoke a minimalistic reply based on the way you put forth your e-mail.

LTL
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: Letting go - 03/03/14 09:24 PM
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
Jedi, I didn't leave out that he has OD drive for him. I said if you ask the kids, they repeat back the story they hear from their dad, even though when I was there I could see him getting intoxicated over the course of the evening. I am not trying to minimize the issue, just be realistic.

Drinking an alcoholic drink or two with dinner is not getting intoxicated.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 03/04/14 03:03 AM
I agree. Believe me I didn't get divorced over a few drinks over dinner. I could write Dr. H back with some examples but the kids have already been given explanations by their Dad for all of it.
Posted By: Portola Re: Letting go - 03/04/14 04:07 AM
Hello, New Every Day:

I almost never post, but as the grown daughter of an alcoholic father, I'm compelled to chime in here on one specific point...

When you say that your ex-husband is responsible about his drinking because he has your older daughter drive if he's had too much to drink, that really struck a "creepy" chord with me. Having a child, even an 18 year old, take care of a drunk parent isn't "responsible." It's kind of sick, actually. It's pulling the child into the selfish dance of the parent, or parents. It's handing over to the child a piece of the responsibility for the parents' dance. You are not three adults making family decisions together.

Again, I'm the grown (now 50 year old) daughter of an alcoholic father. The message that kind of behavior suggests to me is "Hey, honey, I'd rather drink than be your father -- I'm sure you understand!" Imagine what kind of relationship dynamic that sets a girl up for in the future.

If your ex-husband can plan his drinking out well enough that he has this deal with himself and with his daughter, that's not responsibility, it's an example of how he chooses to drink rather than be present for his children.

Don't sit by while your children parent their father. They're the children. You and your ex-husband are not. I understand that you can't make him stop drinking. But if you see your daughter taking over the parenting role as a "good" piece of the puzzle, she's getting mixed messages from all sides. Who does she turn to for real support in this situation? And how will your younger daughter, with that many more impressionable years to observe, break free of the pattern? Is she going to become the chauffeur as soon as she gets her driver's license? And what about the gap of years after the older leaves for college(?) and the younger is still at home?

This is only my perspective, and I offer it with respect. I've been reading here for a long time, and I've followed your story. I have no doubt that you love your children fiercely.

Good luck to you.



Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 03/05/14 03:40 AM
Portola, thanks for your post, and I totally agree. I don't remember saying that getting a driver made him responsible, but if I did I stand corrected. All I meant was that if he was driving under the influence with the kids that would be a clear thing I could point to to say these kids need a respite from all that. My kids both know I got out because I wasn't going to revolve my life around his drinking anymore. And I've talked to both of them about focusing on their own lives and it's not their responsibility to make anyone's life better or different.

I don't know what's going to happen when OD leaves for college this fall. I'll aim for a good balance between detaching while still keeping an eye out for her.
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: Letting go - 03/05/14 03:45 AM
NED,

How many alcoholic drinks does he consume during the day?

How many alcoholic drinks does he consume with dinner AND after dinner?

How many drinks does he consume on the weekend?

Does he ever smoke pot?
Posted By: Portola Re: Letting go - 03/05/14 04:17 AM
New Every Day:

Thank you for your generous response.

It raised another question for me, which is, what would happen if your daughter (or you?) simply said that she was no longer going to play chauffeur for her father? That she didn't feel it was her responsibility and didn't want to be a part of his drinking in that way. Has that idea been considered? It would be a way, that's in her control, of changing the dance without making any demands on him, which she obviously couldn't control anyway. Setting her own boundary.

I do realize in saying this that your daughter may not think she has a problem with being the designated driver. And who am I to say she does? (Someone almost three times her age, darnit!) But it's the kind of thing that gets so ingrained and so confusing, where it feels good to "help" and be considered "responsible," and kids want so much to please their parents. But it's still weird, you know?

Thanks again.

Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 03/05/14 04:59 AM
Jedi, when we were together, there were ups and downs. So my best guess would be from where we left off at the end there. I was deliberately working on not counting because that was a sure way to drive myself nuts.

Weekdays was none during the day, then 1 or 2 with dinner and 3 or 4 more after
Weekends mostly 6 unless out with friends or family and then it was more.

Pot isn't an issue, only once years ago since the kids were born, and that was when he was out of town without us.

Portola, it was rough when I told him I wasn't going to drive him anymore. I don't know whether OD remembers that time. But that's a good thing to talk to her about, that she can decline to drive and let someone else handle it. Especially since she's going off to school in the fall. I was always the designated driver in my group and it did make me feel responsible and helpful, and may have kept me out of worse trouble. But it's important to think through choices and find out what happens when you do say no.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Letting go - 03/05/14 06:36 AM
Does your YDD ever express any concerns to you about her dad's alcoholism?
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 03/05/14 02:48 PM
Brain she did, a little over 2 years ago, that on Sundays when I brought them back, so he wouldn't have to drive, that he was already asleep for the night. So I started keeping them until after dinner, so I'd know they had had something to eat, and he didn't complain. She hasn't expressed any concerns since then, but she knows I am open to hearing her if she does have concerns.
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: Letting go - 03/05/14 03:04 PM
I'm used to my MIL who would need hospitalized when she was drinking, because she would literally drink into alcohol poisoning.

So I'm not familiar with this type of drinking.
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: Letting go - 03/05/14 03:05 PM
He doesnt sound too bad based on the comparisons I can make with my former neighbors (I fed their kid dinner every night because they were drunk and didnt feed him---they drank probably 12 - 24 beers a day).
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 03/05/14 03:22 PM
Yes Jedi, if it progresses like that I think it will be very obvious and it would be easy to take intervention then. My stepfather didn't drink every day, but was a binge drinker, he lost his teeth in a car accident and got a few DUIs over the years. It's a sad disease, one that tells them they have no problem.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Letting go - 03/21/14 12:49 AM
How's it going NED?

Any contact with your EX-fiance? Did he ever get his remaining boxes?

How about your WXH? Are your DDs still visiting him? Is he still drinking?
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 03/22/14 03:03 AM
Brain, it's going pretty well, thanks! The ex got his boxes a while back, and stopped by yesterday to pick up some things he forgot. He was in and out in no time. I can see why we had connected to begin with, but from a distance. I wouldn't connect with him if we met now. He's good-looking and we have a lot of the same background, but I don't *need a man* like I did back then. I really dodged a bullet there in that it could have been much worse.

I never found real proof xh was wayward. But yes my OD is still living there, and the younger one still goes for visits. And as far as I know he's still drinking.

I tried the online dating thing but I'm not ready so I hopped back off before meeting anyone in person. I need to make some more mistakes right now like a hole in the head wink
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 04/03/14 02:08 AM
I don't know what to tell folks when they ask why we broke up. I had been so excited when I got engaged and I told everybody back then, hadn't thought about well what if it didn't work out. Every now and then I have second thoughts but really I was so relieved after I broke it off I couldn't imagine going back. Is it okay to just say something really generic like that, well we found out we just weren't right for each other?

I never really knew what to say when folks asked why I got divorced either, said something like that, we tried to work it out but couldn't get on the same page.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Letting go - 04/03/14 03:22 AM
You really don't have to give an explanation to anyone if you don't want to.

Or what about, "he wasn't the man I expected. I found out he was still married when we were first together and that's a deal breaker for me, and I deserve so much better". Then with a bit of wit say "I'm so making background checks a top of my list from now on". (Big ol' grin) laugh
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: Letting go - 04/03/14 03:24 AM
I would be honest; when asked why I am divorced I usually say, "My wife had an affair and refused to end it so I had no choice but to divorce her"
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Letting go - 04/03/14 03:31 AM
Originally Posted by Jedi_Knight
I would be honest; when asked why I am divorced I usually say, "My wife had an affair and refused to end it so I had no choice but to divorce her"
Yes also on the XH I would also be honest.

My XH is an alcoholic and refused to get sober. He chose his alcohol over the kids and I and our marriage. I deserve so much better.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 04/03/14 01:42 PM
Quote
Or what about, "he wasn't the man I expected. I found out he was still married when we were first together and that's a deal breaker for me, and I deserve so much better". Then with a bit of wit say "I'm so making background checks a top of my list from now on". (Big ol' grin)

Brain, I like this, and was saying something similar. I guess it wasn't with enough confidence or something, because I keep getting strong push-back, that nobody's perfect, most men do so much worse, and if this is the worst of it I should go and see if he'll take me back. Really weird because I would never say something like that to someone. I know good men are hard to find, but what a lie to settle for someone I don't respect the same way any more. I wouldn't want to be settled for, what a bad feeling that would be to have for the rest of your life like that.

I liked what you said about the divorce though, short and to the point. I could add I don't really like talking about it when someone has followup questions with judgment in their tone.

Jedi, I could see where what you're saying, and hopefully you don't get the same kind of push back, no one would expect you to take that for life.
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: Letting go - 04/03/14 03:51 PM
I'm sure some may judge me negatively for the reasons of divroce, but I really dont know or care.

I was quite ignorant on how to maintain a marriage and a terrible husband in many regards; I freely admit that.

Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 04/07/14 04:15 AM
Jedi, I am so glad you were on me to get my ex to get his stuff out of the house. I see on Facebook he got married yesterday, so it's good we had a somewhat clean break.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Letting go - 04/07/14 04:19 AM
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
Jedi, I am so glad you were on me to get my ex to get his stuff out of the house. I see on Facebook he got married yesterday, so it's good we had a somewhat clean break.
Your ex-fiance or your XH?
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 04/07/14 05:25 AM
My ex-fiance. If it was my xh, it wouldn't have come out of the blue like that, the kids would have mentioned a significant other.
Posted By: SugarCane Re: Letting go - 04/07/14 09:19 AM
Good grief. You broke up with him around New Years, and he moved out in February. By early April he is married? How did he find time to court someone else to the point of marriage?

I think the fact that he is able to be married so soon shows that he was not committed to you, NED - he seems to need a place to live, and now he has found one.

It must be hard to see that he is able to marry someone only about 4 months after you thought he was going to marry you, but I think you are well rid of him. I feel sorry for his wife, given what you found out about him.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 04/07/14 01:33 PM
SC, you're right, I'm better off, that easily could have been me, waiting for the next shoe to drop.

And it sure does look like he moved from here to her place. When he came to get his stuff he mentioned a roommate where she lived but I didn't think to ask if his roommate was his ex girlfriend who lived in the part of town he moved to. I had assumed he was staying with a guy, and I remember thinking some male friendship would do him good. But such is life!
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Letting go - 04/08/14 04:45 AM
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
SC, you're right, I'm better off, that easily could have been me, waiting for the next shoe to drop.

And it sure does look like he moved from here to her place. When he came to get his stuff he mentioned a roommate where she lived but I didn't think to ask if his roommate was his ex girlfriend who lived in the part of town he moved to. I had assumed he was staying with a guy, and I remember thinking some male friendship would do him good. But such is life!
Thank goodness you found all this out before you married him.

This man needs to do some major growing up. He can't live on his own.

I bet she told him he had to marry her if he was going to be allowed to move back in. Obviously he was still in touch with her.

I'm glad you're out of that NED.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 04/08/14 02:10 PM
Me too, Brain. I had sent him a Facebook message to say congratulations on his marriage and I wish him and the lady every happiness. He messaged back that they aren't married but will be and thank you. So I guess I jumped to conclusions that they were married just because they said so. Again real confirmation that it was good to trust my gut at the end there.

On another note, I was reading over on the Pregnancy/Child forum. One of my brothers when he was 21 and a dumb kid hooked up with his best friend's older married sister while her H was in jail. We didn't know she was married or would have tried to talk sense into him. When the BH got out of jail she broke it off with my brother, but she was pregnant. When the baby was born, the BH was listed as the father on the birth certificate. My brother got to see the baby and did a DNA test, and confirmed he was his, but the mom cut him off from seeing the baby. I understand, because she was trying to make her marriage work, but the way she went about it was wrong, she falsely charged my brother with domestic violence. She and her BH reconciled and they had another baby, but then broke it off a few years later.

I asked my brother early last year if I could contact her and see if she would be open to my family sending gifts and spending time with my nephew. He's 4 now. My brother is rightfully afraid of more domestic violence charges, and asked me to leave it be, he was going to seek visitation and pay the back child support. But that was over a year ago and it didn't happen. I looked the family up on Facebook, the little boy looks happy and well-cared-for, but anyone can look happy for a couple of facebook photos. She's raising him in a bad neighborhood, and I try to justify that by saying to myself well we come from there too and we turned out fine, but so many kids don't and I would feel awful if he wound up in and out of jail. Not that taking him for visits out of the hood and sending presents would make his life so different. But I feel guilty for forgetting about him.

I was reading a story on Pregnancy/Child about a grandma who wanted to be involved with an OC, and they said well just leave the OM out of it. It got me thinking, maybe my mom and I could contact this mom like on Facebook and ask her directly if we could see him. But I hesitate because I wouldn't want her to retaliate against the boy or my brother.
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: Letting go - 04/08/14 02:32 PM
I would unfriend him/ block him on Facebook.
Its a boundary issue: dont be friends with former lovers.
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: Letting go - 04/08/14 02:34 PM
As for the child, Just call the lady and ask her;
She cant retaliate against your brother for something you do; and she would have to be evil if she retaliated against her child for you calling her
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 04/08/14 02:54 PM
He already deactivated his account we were friends on, I got curious and looked and found an old account that he reactivated, that we're not friends on. For me it was better to know. I said my piece and won't need to contact him again.

When I see my mom this weekend I'm going to show her the photos I found and get her input on reaching out too. The little boy is adorable and looks bright and happy, just like my brother did at that age and just like my brother's one year old does.
Posted By: tccoastguard Re: Letting go - 04/09/14 11:56 PM
Jeez NED, what a bullet dodged. Congratulations in all sincerity. I'm glad you're doing ok!
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 04/10/14 02:52 AM
Thanks TC, agreed! And there was a lot of good that came of it that stuck with me. How about an update, what's going on with you?
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Letting go - 04/10/14 05:11 AM
NED,

Would you email Dr. Harley again about contacting the OC of your brother? I'm curious to what he would advise.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 04/10/14 05:18 AM
Will do! No easy answers. I think involving my mom is a good idea because her radar is sharper than mind
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 04/10/14 01:37 PM
Sent! I am looking forward to hearing his insight. I'm hoping he says it's okay to contact the mom, he looks just like my brother's 1 year old and would feel better being able to check in and see that he's okay. When my parents divorced, my Dad never checked in with us, and my stepdad was violent and worse. If we knew we had other family we could talk to my life could have been very different. Hopefully my nephew's life is nothing like that, but the few pieces that I know like the false DV charges and xH in and out of jail aren't promising.
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: Letting go - 04/10/14 01:45 PM
Dr. Harley's reason for having no contact with other children is to SAVE MARRIAGES.
In this case, there is no marriage to save.
So his rule for no contact does not apply.

The only potential downside is the case of the divorced husband who may have a relationship with the child. If he has a relationship with the child then I wouldn't contact.

But if he is a deadbeat dad then the child could benefit from love.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 04/10/14 01:59 PM
Jedi I agree about that potential downside, and I don't know whether the divorced father is in contact with this nephew or is a deadbeat dad. For all I know he could be back in jail by now too.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Letting go - 04/10/14 02:45 PM
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
Sent! I am looking forward to hearing his insight. I'm hoping he says it's okay to contact the mom, he looks just like my brother's 1 year old and would feel better being able to check in and see that he's okay. When my parents divorced, my Dad never checked in with us, and my stepdad was violent and worse. If we knew we had other family we could talk to my life could have been very different. Hopefully my nephew's life is nothing like that, but the few pieces that I know like the false DV charges and xH in and out of jail aren't promising.
Thanks. Let us know what he says.

IF you end up making contact. Will you let your brother know?
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 04/10/14 03:30 PM
I'd like to, just the last time I brought it up was before Christmas, when L's son gave him some new information about how he was being beaten for years by the relatives the court gave custody to in L's and the XW's absence. My brother insisted that this isn't like that, that his former best friend would reach out to him if the boy was in trouble. But L always insisted that his son would reach out to him if there was any trouble, too. Seems like a big risk to take when you trust these kinds of folks to raise your kids.

I'm sorry that comes off as disrespectful, I am usually good at saying things in a nice way. My brother is a very involved father with his younger son. This other son though didn't get to choose what circumstances he was brought into.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 04/10/14 03:34 PM
I'm not saying I am trying to take his son out of the situation. Just that it would put my heart at ease if I spent time with him and he looked happy and well-adjusted instead of fearful and afraid.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 04/10/14 03:52 PM
Dr. H got back to me, here is his response.

Quote
Hi [Ned],

My advice based on the information you�ve given me is to leave the situation alone, and let your brother deal with it as he sees fit. Legally, since he name is not on the birth certificate, and she was married at the time it was born, and he has not legally adopted the child, he is not responsible for supporting the child. He may be under the impression that since it�s actually his child, that he�s responsible. But legally, he�s not. He may voluntarily support the child, but I can see a host of reasons why he should back away from it. I�ve been involved in many cases where an unfaithful wife has an affair and a child by that man, and yet the husband, who is married to her at the time of the child�s birth, and who is named as the father on the birth certificate, is legally and financially responsible, even when his wife divorces him and marries the other man. It doesn�t seem right, but that�s the way it is these days.

Best wishes,
Dr. Harley

I agree, I think likely the main reason my brother doesn't check in on his son is a fear of owing back child support. My brother wouldn't have to contact the WW directly to send things to his son and check how he's doing, he could give them through his friend, WW's brother. But I will talk to my mom and my brother, share Dr. H's insight and the photos I found, share my concerns again with him, and then continue to let him deal with it as he sees fit.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Letting go - 04/10/14 07:10 PM
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
Dr. H got back to me, here is his response.

Quote
Hi [Ned],

My advice based on the information you�ve given me is to leave the situation alone, and let your brother deal with it as he sees fit. Legally, since he name is not on the birth certificate, and she was married at the time it was born, and he has not legally adopted the child, he is not responsible for supporting the child. He may be under the impression that since it�s actually his child, that he�s responsible. But legally, he�s not. He may voluntarily support the child, but I can see a host of reasons why he should back away from it. I�ve been involved in many cases where an unfaithful wife has an affair and a child by that man, and yet the husband, who is married to her at the time of the child�s birth, and who is named as the father on the birth certificate, is legally and financially responsible, even when his wife divorces him and marries the other man. It doesn�t seem right, but that�s the way it is these days.

Best wishes,
Dr. Harley

I agree, I think likely the main reason my brother doesn't check in on his son is a fear of owing back child support. My brother wouldn't have to contact the WW directly to send things to his son and check how he's doing, he could give them through his friend, WW's brother. But I will talk to my mom and my brother, share Dr. H's insight and the photos I found, share my concerns again with him, and then continue to let him deal with it as he sees fit.
Thanks for posting that NED.

I agree. I think (although I understand why you want to reach out) it's a good idea to not pursue it.

What has your mom said? Let us know what your brother says.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 04/10/14 07:57 PM
I was going to see my mom this weekend. You'd leave it alone? You wouldn't worry about this kid coming back as a grown up, and tell you he was beaten miserably his whole life, and wished someone had come to look for him?

L told me the same thing, that his attorney told him to just wait until his son came and looked for him as a grownup. But his kid was not okay, even with the grandparents that child services sent him to.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Letting go - 04/10/14 08:06 PM
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
I was going to see my mom this weekend. You'd leave it alone? You wouldn't worry about this kid coming back as a grown up, and tell you he was beaten miserably his whole life, and wished someone had come to look for him?

L told me the same thing, that his attorney told him to just wait until his son came and looked for him as a grownup. But his kid was not okay, even with the grandparents that child services sent him to.
No, I meant I wouldn't pursue contacting the OW and pursue it that way. I would follow Dr. Harley's advice.

But, yes I would tell your BIL what you've come across.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 04/10/14 08:07 PM
This is back in my old neighborhood, the one my Dad was murdered in, the one where I left teaching because it was just too rough. I moved my kids out because it's no place to raise children. My brother wanted to move his new wife and son there and she flat-out refused because she was almost assaulted by a stranger when she lived there with her family, and fortunately a neighbor came by and ran the man off before it got worse.

This is not the midwest where a single mother gets a lot of support from other moms and kids can all play outside and maybe she'll find a nice man to be a good father to this boy and her 3 other kids. I know I'm sounding judgmental again and I'm sorry I just don't know how to convey this to you.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 04/10/14 08:15 PM
Ah yes, that I do agree with, to put it in my brother's hands, see what he can do without making a big disruption.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Letting go - 04/10/14 08:47 PM
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
Ah yes, that I do agree with, to put it in my brother's hands, see what he can do without making a big disruption.
I do understand your concern and want to reach out a hand. If you ever fear for the child's safety you can always report it.

I definitely think this is your brother's to take care of.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 04/10/14 09:27 PM
Brain wow i didn't realize I had all that inside me! I feel a lot better, I'll share this all with my mom and brother and trust my brother's judgment. No wonder I was feeling like a wreck bottling that all up!
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Letting go - 04/10/14 09:50 PM
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
Brain wow i didn't realize I had all that inside me! I feel a lot better, I'll share this all with my mom and brother and trust my brother's judgment. No wonder I was feeling like a wreck bottling that all up!
I definitely could tell it that it was bothering you.

Please keep us updated.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 04/19/14 07:06 PM
I am so grateful that I got to get all that off my chest before I started talking to my brother. My brother asked me to come babysit his younger son Sunday, so I got the chance to to with him and my mom about the photos I had found. I told them what Dr. H had said as well. My brother was so happy to see the pictures of this older son. It looks like he is going to continue to stay out of the picture. My brother asked me to send the mother a friend request, and I had, but she didn't respond. That's okay, I'll keep it in perspective.
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: Letting go - 04/19/14 07:43 PM
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
If you ever fear for the child's safety you can always report it.

Useless, may as well bang your head against a wall vs. reporting it.
Some neighborhoods have been completely taken over and are now run by welfare and drug bums.
This sounds like one of those neighborhoods.

In some areas, even the police and social services don't come out unless they are in a large group.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 04/19/14 11:58 PM
Agreed Jedi but as useless as it is if I did become aware of something specific I would report it, start laying a paper trail. You can get the help you need if you get to the folks that can help you. I am of course hoping it doesn't come to that.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Letting go - 04/20/14 12:09 AM
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
I am so grateful that I got to get all that off my chest before I started talking to my brother. My brother asked me to come babysit his younger son Sunday, so I got the chance to to with him and my mom about the photos I had found. I told them what Dr. H had said as well. My brother was so happy to see the pictures of this older son. It looks like he is going to continue to stay out of the picture. My brother asked me to send the mother a friend request, and I had, but she didn't respond. That's okay, I'll keep it in perspective.
So your brother is going to stay out of the picture, but he is okay if you connect with your nephew? But it seems like the OW isn't responding, correct?

What did your mom say?
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 04/20/14 01:42 AM
It sounded like that, that he was okay with me reaching out, but was going to stay stepped back himself, and to keep him posted.

My mom said she had been thinking about it and was going to ask him about getting in touch with the OW, too. She thought like I had been, that if the OW is on her own with the 4 kids that it would be good for her to know we are available to help on the sidelines. My mom just retired this last year, but had a knee surgery and then a heart attack. But she is recovering well now and has just started to babysit her other grandbabies these last few weeks. I think that's what got us thinking about this one.

I've gotten back into the online dating thing again, and doing a lot better not rushing into anything this time. Just talking with a couple of nice guys and planning to meet one next Saturday. I have to listen to that Radio Clip on dating that you posted because I feel like I don't know what to say and stuff lol. Like I haven't even met the one guy yet but I already feel ready to stop talking to the others ones and I know that's how I got into messes before and want to set myself up for success this time.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Letting go - 04/20/14 02:38 AM
It sounds like you need try and be a freeloader while dating. It's definitely different from being a buyer in your marriage or even a renter in your engagement. But being a freeloader will definitely help you get that contrast effect from dating different men.

What are some of the things you've learned after your last relationship?
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 04/20/14 04:36 AM
Well in my marriage I had worked really hard to create compatibility when there were some big struggles we had. So in my last relationship it felt so much easier to get on the same page and brainstorm solutions we both liked. I guess because we were both in that new relationship State of Intimacy, wanting to find solutions the other one would like. That's something I would bring moving forward, too, that willingness to keep an open mind and keep trying solutions.

I learned about some negatives, though, too, that I will do differently going forward. I got myself very invested very quickly, both with my ex-husband and my ex fianc�. When L proposed, I knew I wasn't ready, but figured I would be ready in plenty of in time before the wedding. I learned that's not how it works, doubts based on facts will grow, not get smaller. I thought it was okay that he moved in, because we were engaged, but actually then it made me a lot more invested in making it work as my doubts grew instead of stepping back right away. February 2013 I already had the reservations that in the end were confirmed, but instead of breaking it off, I asked him to move out, but stayed engaged. And then agreed to let him move back in over the summer. I can see that with my habit of getting too invested already to work against, that moving in thing is just not an option for me any more.

Also I hadn't fully resolved my feelings for my ex husband before L and I got serious. We were having way too much contact for that situation. I am enjoying the co-parenting thing with my ex now, but I know I would need to move back to more of a parallel planting plan before getting serious with anyone new.

And I learned never under any circumstance to cosign! L is paying the car payment but it's a bad situation to be on his loan and I'll be glad when it's paid off next year. I'm hoping he can get a better job so he can refinance in his name.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 04/20/14 04:50 AM
Wow okay Brain that radio clip you posted about single moms dating kinda blew my mind. You know when you hear something it either rings as true, false, or I need more information? Well that clip was 100% true for me. I had been fully ready to settle for someone that I would not have if I were single and not trying to compensate for asking someone to take an active role in my kids' lives. I had kept thinking even though my xh had issues, it stinks only having the kids half the time, and maybe I could make it work with him again.

I dunno, I don't think I'm going to cancel with this guy before even meeting him, but it gives me a lot to chew on.

Happy Passover and Happy Easter
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Letting go - 04/20/14 05:05 AM
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
Wow okay Brain that radio clip you posted about single moms dating kinda blew my mind. You know when you hear something it either rings as true, false, or I need more information? Well that clip was 100% true for me. I had been fully ready to settle for someone that I would not have if I were single and not trying to compensate for asking someone to take an active role in my kids' lives. I had kept thinking even though my xh had issues, it stinks only having the kids half the time, and maybe I could make it work with him again.

I dunno, I don't think I'm going to cancel with this guy before even meeting him, but it gives me a lot to chew on.

Happy Passover and Happy Easter
Dr. Harley has a way of doing that doesn't he? I will be pondering something and I will find a clip or show that he has discussed this and I'm like "wow that's what I was trying to get at".

He has done alot of shows on dating and blended families and has made alot of things clear.

I'm glad you were able to get something from it.

Happy Easter!!!
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 06/13/14 03:54 PM
My OD graduated from High School last week, I'm so proud of her! At the end of next week we'll be driving her 7 hours for the student and parent orientation. In the past, these family kinds of activities have left me with a pit of regret for what my ex and I lost. Any suggestions on keeping my head on straight for this?
Posted By: Nerlycrzy Re: Letting go - 06/13/14 04:38 PM
How exciting!! clap

Congratulations, OD!! WTG! hurray

Is it going to be only you & OD going? NED, could you try to make it a memorable girly, mother-daughter bonding experience? I mean by both getting manicure/pedicures, perhaps shopping together for a new outfit, planning a special lunch/dinner?
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 06/13/14 05:36 PM
Thanks so much Nerly! It's going to be xh, OD, YD, and me. Even last week, spending time together with xh for the graduation and party after got my head in a bad place for a day. I don't know if I would be able to plan some mother-daughter time during the trip itself, because the students will be off for student orientation, and xh, YD and I would be going to the parent orientation. But I can plan a special just-us experience before we go, thanks!
Posted By: Nerlycrzy Re: Letting go - 06/13/14 06:54 PM
Ohhh,, OK,, gotcha now. I thought you meant just you & the girls would be going and not xh.

I can see where it'll be alittle different & stressful for you. I guess all you can do is focus strictly on your daughter, what will be ebst for her & her future. Try your best not to let your mind wander back to the past & what might have been.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 06/13/14 07:15 PM
I like that, what a positive that she is in such a great place smile
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: Letting go - 06/15/14 06:07 AM
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
Thanks so much Nerly! It's going to be xh, OD, YD, and me. Even last week, spending time together with xh for the graduation and party after got my head in a bad place for a day. I don't know if I would be able to plan some mother-daughter time during the trip itself, because the students will be off for student orientation, and xh, YD and I would be going to the parent orientation. But I can plan a special just-us experience before we go, thanks!

Dr. Harley would probably advise you to have no direct contact with your ex husband.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 06/15/14 01:39 PM
I have been working on getting to that point, and have made a lot of progress! In the fall there are two parent weekends, and B and I are each going to a different one.
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: Letting go - 06/16/14 07:17 AM
You need to just end all direct contact with him
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 06/16/14 03:09 PM
Jedi, I'm glad I have aplace like this I could keep coming to. We got some bad advice from a family counselor we went to when our OD was struggling a few years ago. Back then, she had said it was a good thing for our kids that we still had family dinners, went on family trips, and spent holidays as a family. In our extended family, there are a number of situations like that. So I can see up close the downsides to continued contact. None of the folks left a current partner for a previous one, but it keeps folks talking about and justifying old decisions.

And definitely at times it is can bad example for the kids, justifying stuff to them and in front of them to keep the peace and try to make awkward situations less awkward. I would like my kids to know you can be reconciled to someone and have forgiveness on both sides without having direct contact in the present.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 07/27/14 02:16 PM
I wanted to share, I met someone really special on Christian Mingle, and we just celebrated 3 months dating yesterday smile
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: Letting go - 07/27/14 04:23 PM
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
I wanted to share, I met someone really special on Christian Mingle, and we just celebrated 3 months dating yesterday smile


That's great!
Just to recap, have you read Buyers Renters Freeloaders?
What is his prior relationship histories?
ALSO....save yourself the prior agony you experienced and do NOT sleep or move in together. Take it slow!
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 07/28/14 07:52 PM
Jedi, good idea, I'll reread Buyers Renters and Freeloaders. I read it at first trying to convert my Renter to a Buyer back in the day, desperately trying to pretend the man was Buyer material.

My new guy has been married once, divorced in late 2010 like I did, with a 5 year old son. He said his wife divorced him because she never really left the nest, and she moved back home when their son was around 6 months old and filed later that year. He had a girlfriend after the divorce, but they broke up because she wanted to get married after 1 year, because she was 36 and wanted a baby, but he wanted to wait another year.

The cow already left the barn on sleeping together, but he and I are on the same page about not moving in together before getting married. I've been reading heret about making sure that you have lots of interests in common outside of that, though, and we have lots of dates that don't include that. He'd very much like another child one day, and I would be open to that too.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Letting go - 07/30/14 01:37 PM
Does he know about MB? Have you talked with his ex-wife?
Posted By: KeepLearning Re: Letting go - 07/30/14 03:16 PM
Hi NewEveryDay, that's great news, and I'm really happy for you!

I hadn't ready your thread before, and just caught up. Wow, you've been through a lot in the last few years. I remember asking you for relationship advice a couple years ago, and I really appreciated your input. I apologize for not familiarizing myself with your thread at the time, and I can see now, it was about the same time you were dealing with the loss of your father. I was sad to hear that.

Reading between the lines a bit in your latest posts, I assume the 3-month mark is 3 months of exclusive dating? Since I just finished reading your thread, I couldn't help but recall these posts from earlier this year:

Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
For the next time I don't think I would move in together before marriage. I would not commit to dating exclusively up front. I don't think I would do online dating again for quite some time. I would not get engaged until 2 years. I wouldn't get serious too fast. I'd introduce him to my family before I decided to go exclusive. Not to give them a veto but their input is relevant. I would do more RC and FC stuff and less DS together. Does that sound like a good start?
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
I've gotten back into the online dating thing again, and doing a lot better not rushing into anything this time. Just talking with a couple of nice guys and planning to meet one next Saturday. I have to listen to that Radio Clip on dating that you posted because I feel like I don't know what to say and stuff lol. Like I haven't even met the one guy yet but I already feel ready to stop talking to the others ones and I know that's how I got into messes before and want to set myself up for success this time.
I'm not trying to "bust your chops," just wondering if your perspective on any of that has changed since then.

Since this guy is someone really special to you, and there's been communication about children in the future and not living together before marriage, it sounds like your relationship is progressing fairly quickly. (Which is not necessarily a bad thing at all. smile ) Does it feel quick to you?

Have you had any disagreements or misunderstandings that you've had to work through?

Sounds like you're on to something good, and I hope it keeps going!
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 07/31/14 04:39 AM
Brainy, I haven't mentioned MB specifically yet, but I have all the books on my bookshelf. He's an avid reader so I think the best way to share would be to lend him my books if and when it gets serious, it should spark some good discussions. Especially HNHN for Parents. I don't remember if it talks about blending families.

Any guidelines on when to talk with his ex-wife? I found her on Facebook a while back. They do the parallel parenting and have a very strained relationship. Is it weird that being here as long as I have, I strongly believe their best chance at happiness would be to reconcile with one another instead? They don't have an obstacle to recovery like B and I did.

Speaking about Facebook, I never did hear back from my brother's baby momma. I'm grateful I got to email with Dr. H, after a few weeks it helped me settle down that What-If feeling.

KL, how's married life? Is it okay to ask if you two are planning kids? One of my closest friends is 41 and her H of 3 years just celebrated his 70th birthday, and they are very happy together. She would love a baby but totally understands that he doesn't want to take on such a big responsibility, he's looking forward to retiring.

Don't worry about not having read up on my situation at the time, I'm glad time has let it fade.

Yes, 3 months of dating, and two months we've been exclusive. He was head and shoulders over the other guys I was talking to, so I did let it drop with the other guys, and got off the online dating site.

Late April was kinda early to go back to online dating, too! I had gotten back dating my XH, when of course that would have just ended up a horrible mess. And then found out my ex fiancee was already engaged. So I thought that contrast effect from the online dating site would really help me detach from those situations. And it did. I went to an IC, too, for a few sessions, to help me redirect myself. This article helped me too Should I Remarry My Ex-Spouse? If Not, How Can I Just Let Go?

He's met my kids, some of my brothers, and my friends, but not the whole family yet. I know what they're looking for though and they like what they hear so far.

Yes it feels quick! We haven't had anything to work through yet, we're still just meeting for dates, so it's not hard to agree on that smile
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: Letting go - 07/31/14 04:52 AM
I would contact the ex wife now, since you are already sleeping with him. Have a list of questions for her, such as:

What were your main complaints while married to him?
Did he ever cheat on you?
What are his most annoying habits?
Does he have angry outbursts, etc....

You seem to jump into relationships fast NED. Dr. Harley would have advised against sex because it bonds you to him more emotionally.

Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 07/31/14 05:19 AM
Oh wow Jedi that sounds kinda soon to contact his xw. Wouldn't that be more like before deciding to get engaged down the line? I like those questions, I'll be meeting his mom soon, and I assume we would hit it off well, these are things I could ask her in the meantime, right?

I know I jump into stuff. It's the most incredible feeling falling in love. I deeply respect and admire folks who wait until they get married for SF. It's not easy to hold out when your partner is willing and you're feeling such a strong attraction. I'm keeping my eyes out for red flags and if I run into any I can still jump back out.

Posted By: KeepLearning Re: Letting go - 07/31/14 02:51 PM
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
Any guidelines on when to talk with his ex-wife? I found her on Facebook a while back. They do the parallel parenting and have a very strained relationship. Is it weird that being here as long as I have, I strongly believe their best chance at happiness would be to reconcile with one another instead? They don't have an obstacle to recovery like B and I did.
Talking with his ex, I think I read somewhere that Dr. Harley recommends it, but it seems it would work better in a situation where the two ex's have put the past behind them, the way you and your ex appear to have done. If he and his ex have "a very strained relationship," then she may welcome opportunities to hurt him, and she could do this by stretching the truth or outright lying if you asked for her perspective on their marriage.

Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
KL, how's married life? Is it okay to ask if you two are planning kids? One of my closest friends is 41 and her H of 3 years just celebrated his 70th birthday, and they are very happy together. She would love a baby but totally understands that he doesn't want to take on such a big responsibility, he's looking forward to retiring.
Married life is... amazing... amazing how good it can be married to someone with a high degree of compatibility. Most days, I can't wait to finish work and get home to spend time with my wife. Yeah, 70 is kind of late to start a family, and, of COURSE it's ok to ask. At this point, my wife doesn't want any kids, but if she changes her mind, I'd be 100% on board (in enthusiastic agreement, in MB terms smile ). We have 4 dogs, 2 cats, and a horse, so that's kind of our family; not quite as demanding as infants, but it seems like there's always someone throwing up somewhere! My son also lives with us while finishing college.

Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
Late April was kinda early to go back to online dating, too! I had gotten back dating my XH, when of course that would have just ended up a horrible mess. And then found out my ex fiancee was already engaged. So I thought that contrast effect from the online dating site would really help me detach from those situations. And it did. I went to an IC, too, for a few sessions, to help me redirect myself. This article helped me too Should I Remarry My Ex-Spouse? If Not, How Can I Just Let Go?
You dated your XH? What??!? If that was in your thread somewhere, I missed it. That's hard to imagine; although the "Should I remarry my ex-spouse" article was interesting -- I hadn't seen that before -- so I guess anything's possible!

Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
He's met my kids, some of my brothers, and my friends, but not the whole family yet. I know what they're looking for though and they like what they hear so far.

Yes it feels quick! We haven't had anything to work through yet, we're still just meeting for dates, so it's not hard to agree on that smile
Getting good feedback from family members is nice. When he meets your mom, let us know what she thinks! Ditto for when you hit your first disagreement.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 07/31/14 04:04 PM
KL I think hadn't mentioned it here that I went out again with my xh because I already knew I was nuts. My thought was man it would be awesome to live with my kids all the time again! But he's much more of a freeloader now even than before, and thinks if it requires work then it wasn't meant to be. At least I was willing to take him at his word when he told me this time.

Dogs, cats and a horse sound like a wonderful family! And it's so much easier to travel and stuff together, especially with your son there.

I'll definitely let you know what my mom thinks. I was re-reading Buyers Renters and Freeloaders last night, and got through the chapters on each of the types. I thought it was really interesting that Joyce continued to date even while they were engaged. There's this huge lack of the big fears that folks have today. When I'm done reading the book I'm going to share it with my guy and talk about all these ideas.
Posted By: KeepLearning Re: Letting go - 07/31/14 04:31 PM
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
When I'm done reading the book I'm going to share it with my guy and talk about all these ideas.
I did the same with my, at the time, girlfriend. I asked if she'd want to take the quiz at the end of the book before reading and possibly being biased by it. She did and was a Buyer on 19 out of 20 or something like that questions.

Good luck! I'm excited for you!
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Letting go - 07/31/14 05:45 PM
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
KL I think hadn't mentioned it here that I went out again with my xh because I already knew I was nuts. My thought was man it would be awesome to live with my kids all the time again! But he's much more of a freeloader now even than before, and thinks if it requires work then it wasn't meant to be. At least I was willing to take him at his word when he told me this time.

Dogs, cats and a horse sound like a wonderful family! And it's so much easier to travel and stuff together, especially with your son there.

I'll definitely let you know what my mom thinks. I was re-reading Buyers Renters and Freeloaders last night, and got through the chapters on each of the types. I thought it was really interesting that Joyce continued to date even while they were engaged. There's this huge lack of the big fears that folks have today. When I'm done reading the book I'm going to share it with my guy and talk about all these ideas.
Wow NED, I didn't know you dated your XH. Is he in a program for his alcoholism?
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 07/31/14 06:29 PM
KL that's awesome that your wife is such a keeper smile And so cool that you came back to check in on us here.

No Brainy, he doesn't think he has a problem. Which was why wishful thinking was so inappropriate. When he's sober he so much resembles the man I had fallen in love with way back when. But the more time I spent with him the more I saw he was still out of control.
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: Letting go - 07/31/14 07:08 PM
Originally Posted by KeepLearning
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
Any guidelines on when to talk with his ex-wife? I found her on Facebook a while back. They do the parallel parenting and have a very strained relationship. Is it weird that being here as long as I have, I strongly believe their best chance at happiness would be to reconcile with one another instead? They don't have an obstacle to recovery like B and I did.
Talking with his ex, I think I read somewhere that Dr. Harley recommends it, but it seems it would work better in a situation where the two ex's have put the past behind them, the way you and your ex appear to have done. If he and his ex have "a very strained relationship," then she may welcome opportunities to hurt him, and she could do this by stretching the truth or outright lying if you asked for her perspective on their marriage.

Dr. Harley often encourages people to do this on his Radio Show.
Obviously, if the couple divorced there is probably no enthusiastic endorsement of the ex spouse and Dr. Harley fully recognizes this.
But you have NOTHING to lose by contacting his ex. You can only stand to gain
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Letting go - 07/31/14 07:13 PM
Originally Posted by Jedi_Knight
Dr. Harley often encourages people to do this on his Radio Show.
Obviously, if the couple divorced there is probably no enthusiastic endorsement of the ex spouse and Dr. Harley fully recognizes this.
But you have NOTHING to lose by contacting his ex. You can only stand to gain

Absolutely. Dr Harley assumes that most relationships that have ended are not amicable and there will not be an enthusiastic endorsement of the former spouse/boyfriend. The goal is to gain insight into that person and even though the information might be critical, it is still helpful. Our critics can sometimes have the best insight on our shortcomings.
Posted By: KeepLearning Re: Letting go - 07/31/14 07:34 PM
Originally Posted by Jedi_Knight
But you have NOTHING to lose by contacting his ex. You can only stand to gain
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
The goal is to gain insight into that person and even though the information might be critical, it is still helpful. Our critics can sometimes have the best insight on our shortcomings.
Assuming his ex is honest, I agree with both statements.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Letting go - 07/31/14 07:38 PM
Originally Posted by KeepLearning
Originally Posted by Jedi_Knight
But you have NOTHING to lose by contacting his ex. You can only stand to gain
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
The goal is to gain insight into that person and even though the information might be critical, it is still helpful. Our critics can sometimes have the best insight on our shortcomings.
Assuming his ex is honest, I agree with both statements.

There are no guarantees that anyone is going to be honest. She could call his greatest fan, his mother, and not get complete honesty.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Letting go - 07/31/14 07:39 PM
You think I would say anything negative about my son if someone called and asked about his character? My son is PERFECTION PERSONIFIED and I can't see him any other way! grin
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 07/31/14 07:52 PM
Definitely before getting engaged I think it would be good to get the full scoop. In getting to know each other, I found out he doesn't have his son half-time, when that would be typical in my state, and asked him more about it. He's a wonderful little guy, and we get along great and he really likes my DDs and they like him a lot too. BF explained it was to simplify daycare arrangements when his DS was younger. And then a few days later he said that he thought more about it and he thinks now that his son would be starting kindergarten it would be a good time to look at going back to a one week on one week off schedule like YD does. So I wouldn't want to reach out to her too close to that time and her come to the conclusion that I'm stirring the pot and make that transition difficult.

What gets my attention too about that situation is that there isn't some big dealbreaker why they aren't together. And being a longtime MBer, I think as much as I really like this guy, the best possible outcome would be for him to go reunite his family instead of being in a new relationship. But he doesn't sound like that would be something he would be open to at all, so I wonder if it makes sense to even broach the subject. I think that Buyers Renters Freeloaders book and especially that what it takes to be a buyer chapter would be a good opening to a conversation like that.

Also in the chapter on Renters it talks about the 5 things you want to be compatible on. We are very close in intellect, culture, energy, and values, but are at opposite ends on the introvert/extrovert one. I have a few very close women friends from growing up, an extended family I spend lots of time with, and two women I sponsor in Alanon. My guy doesn't have any close friends he socializes with. I always wind up with introverts, so I'm used to finding that balance, I'm not a big IBer, and value UA time, so I don't think this has to be an issue, but definitely something to discuss.
Posted By: KeepLearning Re: Letting go - 07/31/14 08:06 PM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
There are no guarantees that anyone is going to be honest. She could call his greatest fan, his mother, and not get complete honesty.
You're right, I hadn't thought about that.

I guess what I'm thinking of is the difference between critical information and intentional misinformation. Critical information is useful, as you say. But I'm not so sure about intentional mis-information. For example, suppose NewEveryDay's boyfriend's ex derived sick pleasure in poisoning any relationship he was in. If NewEveryDay contacted her, she might say something like he physically abused her and their children during their marriage, when in fact he hadn't. How would this help NewEveryDay?

A hypothetical example, I know. Does Dr. Harley say anything specific about dealing with the possibility of slander when contacting an ex?
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 07/31/14 08:16 PM
Lol I know that one! KL it would be good at giving me more incentive to take a wait and see approach and keep my eyes open wink
Posted By: KeepLearning Re: Letting go - 07/31/14 08:32 PM
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
What gets my attention too about that situation is that there isn't some big dealbreaker why they aren't together. And being a longtime MBer, I think as much as I really like this guy, the best possible outcome would be for him to go reunite his family instead of being in a new relationship. But he doesn't sound like that would be something he would be open to at all, so I wonder if it makes sense to even broach the subject. I think that Buyers Renters Freeloaders book and especially that what it takes to be a buyer chapter would be a good opening to a conversation like that.
That would get my attention too. My wife is fascinated with understanding my previous marriage; not only to understand more of me, but also because she likes relationship stuff in general. Maybe you could present it that way to him, that you are naturally fascinated with relationships and want to understand more about his previous one.

Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
Also in the chapter on Renters it talks about the 5 things you want to be compatible on. We are very close in intellect, culture, energy, and values, but are at opposite ends on the introvert/extrovert one. I have a few very close women friends from growing up, an extended family I spend lots of time with, and two women I sponsor in Alanon. My guy doesn't have any close friends he socializes with. I always wind up with introverts, so I'm used to finding that balance, I'm not a big IBer, and value UA time, so I don't think this has to be an issue, but definitely something to discuss.
One characterization I've come across regarding the difference between introverts and extroverts is not how many friends they have, rather how they recharge their energy, say after a full day of work. Introverts do it by going home and relaxing; extroverts do it by going out to social settings. My wife has several close friends she enjoys, while I don't (other than her); yet we both like to come home after work and relax rather than go out and socialize. Even though there's a discrepancy in the number of friends we have, we both feel aligned on the introversion/extroversion scale.

However it's definitely something to discuss with him!
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Letting go - 07/31/14 08:53 PM
Originally Posted by KeepLearning
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
There are no guarantees that anyone is going to be honest. She could call his greatest fan, his mother, and not get complete honesty.
You're right, I hadn't thought about that.

I guess what I'm thinking of is the difference between critical information and intentional misinformation. Critical information is useful, as you say. But I'm not so sure about intentional mis-information. For example, suppose NewEveryDay's boyfriend's ex derived sick pleasure in poisoning any relationship he was in. If NewEveryDay contacted her, she might say something like he physically abused her and their children during their marriage, when in fact he hadn't. How would this help NewEveryDay?

A hypothetical example, I know. Does Dr. Harley say anything specific about dealing with the possibility of slander when contacting an ex?

What do you do when anyone slanders your friends/family/spouse? Wouldn't you evaluate the claims and make a conclusion based on facts and evidence? I think you have to use your common sense and understand that there may be some bitterness and take that into account when evaluating their claims. You can't just assume that EVERY ex is a liar. That is an unrealistic assumption on your part.

Dr. Harley assumes people have common sense.

Posted By: KeepLearning Re: Letting go - 07/31/14 09:35 PM
Awesome! Thanks for explaining.

(I'm probably biased because my ex IS a liar!)
Posted By: KeepLearning Re: Letting go - 08/29/14 02:37 PM
A month later, how are things going? Are you still dating the same guy? Has he met your mom?
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 08/29/14 09:29 PM
Things are going great here, except my oldest just went off to college! I'm still adjusting.

He hasn't met my mom yet, she doesn't want to meet him yet, because he hasn't introduced me to his mom yet. He knows I'm dying to meet his mom, because I want to "bring him into the fold" with my family and see what they think. He says she's difficult and is waiting for his brother to come down next month and visit as a buffer. To be honest, this is a big love buster for me, but I'm trying to keep in mind that POJA thing that it creates less resentment not getting what you want, then for someone to go along with what they don't want. Maybe he's just not ready to be "in the fold" with my family just yet, wants to be more one-on-one, who knows?

I love him a whole bunch, but man it hit me that I jumped in so way soon. After being married for 15 years, I don't know how to turn off that thing where once I have feelings for one man, any other romantic interest feels like a waste of time.

I love his little boy, too. He's a handful! But I'm loving every minute.

I do have a concern, I don't know yet how he handles big disagreements. And it kinda bothers me that I'm in this deep without knowing something so critical. My ex used to get so hostile with me, and being here with you all, I know I never have to settle for that life again. I want to know if he gets angry in a mean way, or takes it in stride and patience. But there is nothing big we disagree on yet.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Letting go - 08/29/14 10:41 PM
Have you actually tried POJA with him about meeting his mom?
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 08/30/14 03:36 AM
From when it first came up he has said he would feel more comfortable waiting until his brother came from out of town to visit as a buffer. I don't honestly understand that but I figured I could just wait it out and see what happened. I always heard that you can tell how a man will treat you by how he treats his mom, and I think there's a lot of truth to that. My brothers who are close to my mom are close with their wives and my neither who doesn't want to be bothered hasn't married his girlfriend who he has a baby with. I have brought it up several times, to the point that one day my family needed to come over for help with paperwork and I asked my bf to go to the bookstore because my parents don't want to meet him until I met his mom. I don't want to push too hard either. I figure if too much time goes by and nothing happens that tells me something too.
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: Letting go - 08/30/14 03:46 AM
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
Things are going great here, except my oldest just went off to college! I'm still adjusting.

He hasn't met my mom yet, she doesn't want to meet him yet, because he hasn't introduced me to his mom yet. He knows I'm dying to meet his mom, because I want to "bring him into the fold" with my family and see what they think. He says she's difficult and is waiting for his brother to come down next month and visit as a buffer. To be honest, this is a big love buster for me, but I'm trying to keep in mind that POJA thing that it creates less resentment not getting what you want, then for someone to go along with what they don't want. Maybe he's just not ready to be "in the fold" with my family just yet, wants to be more one-on-one, who knows?

I love him a whole bunch, but man it hit me that I jumped in so way soon. After being married for 15 years, I don't know how to turn off that thing where once I have feelings for one man, any other romantic interest feels like a waste of time.

I love his little boy, too. He's a handful! But I'm loving every minute.

I do have a concern, I don't know yet how he handles big disagreements. And it kinda bothers me that I'm in this deep without knowing something so critical. My ex used to get so hostile with me, and being here with you all, I know I never have to settle for that life again. I want to know if he gets angry in a mean way, or takes it in stride and patience. But there is nothing big we disagree on yet.

I just wanted to address your last sentence.
I have heard Dr. Harley use the shopping cart lesson as a way to learn how to negotiate.
You go to the store with one shopping cart and then try to convince the other person to get the items you like, as they try to convince you.
It is a practice in negotiation
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: Letting go - 08/30/14 03:47 AM
Why dont you contact his ex wife for perspective?
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 08/30/14 03:52 AM
We have been to the store, like shopping for something to make for dinner, but if he doesn't like something, i still get it because we're just saying and there are plenty of dinners we don't have together. But the idea makes sense like date night, try to see what would make the other enthusiastic about doing something different.
Posted By: KeepLearning Re: Letting go - 09/02/14 03:55 PM
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
Things are going great here, except my oldest just went off to college! I'm still adjusting.
Is her college close enough to home that she'll be able to visit from time to time?

Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
He hasn't met my mom yet, she doesn't want to meet him yet, because he hasn't introduced me to his mom yet.
Just curious, why does your mom want to meet him after you to meet his mom?

Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
Maybe he's just not ready to be "in the fold" with my family just yet, wants to be more one-on-one, who knows?
Have you asked him?

Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
I love him a whole bunch, but man it hit me that I jumped in so way soon. After being married for 15 years, I don't know how to turn off that thing where once I have feelings for one man, any other romantic interest feels like a waste of time.
I know exactly how you feel; I'm the same. When I was in post-divorce therapy, my therapist said it indicated that I'm a relationship person by nature. Not that I need to be in a relationship, but I'm happier in one than not. Maybe you're a relationship person too.

Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
I do have a concern, I don't know yet how he handles big disagreements. And it kinda bothers me that I'm in this deep without knowing something so critical. My ex used to get so hostile with me, and being here with you all, I know I never have to settle for that life again. I want to know if he gets angry in a mean way, or takes it in stride and patience. But there is nothing big we disagree on yet.
Keep waiting, you're bound to disagree on something at some point. I remember reading somewhere that when Dr. Harley counseled pre-marital couples, he purposely gave them a problem that had no solution because he wanted to see how they handled conflict.

I wouldn't be too bothered by lack of disagreement. Maybe you just happen to be very compatible! I remember feeling something similar with my now wife. The first few months we dated, I kept waiting for the other shoe to drop. She felt the same, wondering why things seemed to be going so extraordinarily well. We eventually did hit some areas of conflict and resolved them, but the scarcity of conflict in our relationship is an indication to us of compatibility. Maybe it's the same with you! smile
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 09/02/14 08:52 PM
KL, her college is 8 hours away, which is a lot for us! I'll get to see her for Thanksgiving, and we're talking almost every day.

My mom wants me to meet his mom first because she think I get serious too fast and am more serious than he is. I had asked him before, and he said his mom is difficult to be around, and would pull herself in when his brother was there. That she goes on and on about aches and pains and such. I talked to him this weekend, let him know it is really starting to feel strange that we are getting along so well, we get our kids together a lot, but I haven't met his mom. He said he understood, and explained that when his mom met his last ex girlfriend, she said a lot of negative things about him and his family and she didn't want to see her again. I thanked him for his honesty, and I said well that would be really good for me to know lol! That really got him laughing with me too, and I really think he gets it now. He said his brother would be down in the next few weeks, and if not, we will get together with her anyway, because he agrees, he wants me to know what I'll be getting into.

That must've gone really well, because the next day he said he is ready to talk deeper about future plans, and when I'm ready, too, to please let him know. I love him so much, and you know how I would love to get into all that with him, but I remember from last time that this is way early for all that yet, and my YD is still getting used to him and definitely needs more time.

We're also talking about how later on we both would be open to having another child. It was a door we had both thought would be closed, and were happy the other was open to that.

I shared with him also, that I want to know how he would deal with big disagreements if we were together. He didn't understand what I was getting at, so I gave some examples of things that I thought we may not agree on. Like if my mom got sick and needed more care than she can get at home, and I wanted her to come live with us for a time. Sometimes life hands us some big disappointments, or gets really hard for a while, and how does he deal with that. I really liked what he had to say, and feel even more confident about him. I am so grateful I can come and get my concerns out and get some perspective so I can address them up front!
Posted By: KeepLearning Re: Letting go - 09/02/14 09:07 PM
That all sounds really good! It'll be interesting to see what you think of his mom when you meet her. Let us know.

(All good except the part about your daughter being 8 hours away. That's too much for a weekend visit every now and then. But talking almost every day, that's great!)
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 09/02/14 09:31 PM
Oh my goodness, I'm so not worried about that. My family is all like that, so it was good he found someone with years of Alanon under her belt wink
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 09/22/14 05:48 PM
I am re-reading Buyers Renters and Freeloaders, truly fascinating. I see where I still have that conflict avoidant side, and have hurt my relationships with my kids when I sacrificed and gave in instead of holding out for win-win solutions. What a shame! I am so grateful that today is a new day! It is *so* much better than it was. But the same way I eliminated my angry outburst issue, I am confident I can eliminate this old behavior, too. When I'm done with this, I'm going to reread HNHN for Parents, especially the part about promoting thoughtfulness in children wink
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 09/24/14 12:56 PM
And then at the last chapter, it talks specifically about how negotiation, not settling for any solution that my taker isn't happy with, is the action that will keep that overactive giver in check and keep it from ruining relationships. I'm going to give this to my sweetheart next, a lot of great topics for conversation. Reading through, there are some big ways we're not so compatible, I'm very outgoing and love visiting with my extended family, but going out one on one with my boyfriend so much, I miss them! I like Dr. H's example of the partner who wants to go out with friends Friday nights, that if they want to find a win-win solution, he would have to make it a very pleasant experience. I think my guy will really like my brothers, I'm looking forward to finding out smile
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 11/20/14 12:34 PM
My DD called last night, she was safe in her dorm room when she got a text from the school to stay away from doors and windows. There was a shooting at her school. I am praying for the kids that were there and so grateful DD will be home for thanksgiving next week!
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Letting go - 11/21/14 06:16 AM
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
My DD called last night, she was safe in her dorm room when she got a text from the school to stay away from doors and windows. There was a shooting at her school. I am praying for the kids that were there and so grateful DD will be home for thanksgiving next week!
Glad she's okay. It's sad to say, but these shootings are becoming more common than we would like to know. pray
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 11/27/14 03:44 PM
Thanks for the prayers Brain. And Happy Thanksgiving to everyone!
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 08/06/15 09:31 PM
I don't know if Susie reads over here, too, but I thought better to talk about my situation here than over on rock solid's thread. I am enjoying my relationship with my boyfriend, we've been together over a year, and the kids like him, too. He doesn't sleep over when the kids are here. I don't know about our future though. I read Dr. H's Choosing Who to Marry, and we're pretty compatible expect that I'm more extrovert and bf is more introvert, to the point that he doesn't like being around my extended family. They don't think he's the right one for me because he's so standoffish, and I'm very family oriented. Also we have different activity levels, bf's DS and his job wear him out. OD wants me to break up with him and find someone I would be happier with, but I have been burned SO BAD and feel content enough most of the time with someone who is kind to me and my kids.
Posted By: Prisca Re: Letting go - 08/07/15 12:58 AM
Quote
They don't think he's the right one for me because he's so standoffish, and I'm very family oriented. Also we have different activity levels, bf's DS and his job wear him out. OD wants me to break up with him and find someone I would be happier with,
Listen to them. Your family is not part of the romantic relationship, their reactions to him are more objective than yours.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 08/07/15 04:13 AM
I do take what my family says seriously. I went through something similar with my ex-H, though, my family took a long time to warm up to him back in the day, so I am hoping they will warm up to bf in time, too.
Posted By: SusieQ Re: Letting go - 08/07/15 03:35 PM

Sometimes I do read over here although I haven't read your thread. So I'll apologize in advance if I ask you questions that are already covered.

Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
I don't know about our future though. I read Dr. H's Choosing Who to Marry, and we're pretty compatible expect that I'm more extrovert and bf is more introvert, to the point that he doesn't like being around my extended family. They don't think he's the right one for me because he's so standoffish, and I'm very family oriented.


Being compatible isn't a good enough reason to wash out any red flags that people may be seeing.

I think I could be considered an introvert at least by people who don't know me - I can be shy around new people, especially if I am nervous. Otherwise I think I am kinda extroverted. I think that can be true for a lot of shy people.

Anyway, that being said, being this way never prevented me from spending time and getting to know a boyfriend's family/close friends when dating. Yeah, it's hard but you make the effort.

Also just MHO but I don't think being introverted or shy equates to being non-family oriented or standoffish so I am wondering if there is something else they are seeing that they don't like.

Has anyone else close to you, like a good friend, not liked him or pointed out any red flags?

Is he just not friendly? Moody?
What kind of work does he do?
How did his marriage end?

Again, sorry if this has been covered.
Posted By: SusieQ Re: Letting go - 08/07/15 03:37 PM
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
I do take what my family says seriously. I went through something similar with my ex-H, though, my family took a long time to warm up to him back in the day, so I am hoping they will warm up to bf in time, too.

Prisca is right.

And you don't want them to "warm up" to him. Dr Harley said something about this to a dating single mother once - he said you want the most critical views, you don't want people who are going to tell you what you want to hear. And he went on to tell the caller to talk to the guy's ex wife.

Did you ever talk to his ex?
Posted By: Prisca Re: Letting go - 08/07/15 10:05 PM
Quote
I went through something similar with my ex-H, though, my family took a long time to warm up to him back in the day, so I am hoping they will warm up to bf in time, too.
I wouldn't make that same mistake again.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Letting go - 08/08/15 01:32 AM
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
OD wants me to break up with him and find someone I would be happier with, but I have been burned SO BAD and feel content enough most of the time with someone who is kind to me and my kids.

This is a huge red flag. Don't just settle because you've been burned. Keep dating until you find the right one.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 08/08/15 03:58 AM
Susie, yeah, most of the time to doesn't bother me, but on the drive back from a visit with my family, it bothers me, that he doesn't make the effort to get to know my family. He's plenty family-oriented with his own family, and I've been enjoying getting to know them.

My good friends all like him, tell me not to worry about it, that he's just slow to warm up, and a good man is hard to find.

Not moody, just not friendly either. I talked to him about making more of an effort with my YD, and he's stepped up talking more with her.

He was an academic advisor for 9 years at the college I went to, but left his job earlier this year to try to find a better position. So he can talk for work, but it leaves him drained. While he's interviewing for the right thing, he doing customer service at the company I work at.

His ex-wife went to stay at her parents after she had some surgery when their son was a baby, and never came home. The grandmother had taken a year off to take care of the baby. He said they had tried counseling, but it sounds like health problems and lack of UA time with a new baby did them in. I met him 4 years after their divorce was final. I checked his divorce date online this time, after getting burned by my ex-fiancee, who had told me when I met him that he was divorced, but he didn't actually file and get the divorce until after we got engaged. Anyway, I told him I thought his first marriage sounded pretty fixable, but he said he had already moved on.

I haven't talked to his ex yet, I figured I would wait until we were getting engaged.

Prisca, I hadn't thought of it like that, not making the same mistake again. I have some reservations, I don't know if that's to be expected at this point in the relationship, or if I still have these doubts, then it's a problem, that's why I posted.

Brain, how do you know when you're settling, and when you're being realistic? I am thinking it will get more obvious one way or the other than it is today.
Posted By: buildsherhouse Re: Letting go - 08/08/15 05:25 PM
Quote
I am thinking it will get more obvious one way or the other than it is today.
but it sounds like you are having sex with him and spending nights together when your kids are away. If that is true you've fogged up your glasses. You won't be able to see clearly even if the obvious signs are right in front of you.
Posted By: SusieQ Re: Letting go - 08/08/15 05:56 PM
Originally Posted by buildsherhouse
Quote
I am thinking it will get more obvious one way or the other than it is today.
but it sounds like you are having sex with him and spending nights together when your kids are away. If that is true you've fogged up your glasses. You won't be able to see clearly even if the obvious signs are right in front of you.

This is exactly what Dr Harley says.

And I'm thinking that's what happened with the ex-fiance?

Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 08/09/15 03:03 AM
That makes a lot of sense. I'll talk with him again about my concerns, and see what we can figure out. I have a copy of Buyers Renters and Freeloaders, I'll lend him that to read through too.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 04/06/17 10:35 AM
Oh man it's been a long time since and update. I'm still here reading and learning. We got married New Years Day and I'm enjoying married life putting a home together. I ran across this article this morning looking for a friend and it's so good I wanted to link it. I am so grateful for this place. Helping folks set the stage for lasting happiness.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5031b_qa.html
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 02/16/18 08:01 PM
Bumping for Candy. Dang all the signs were there but like you all told me then my glasses were fogged. The disrespect turned on me and my YD and a few weeks ago I asked him to move out of our home, like the When to Call it Quits article. But since we�re a blended family he�s only out when his son isn�t here. I have the books and try to show him passages that apply but have not been successful yet. At least being in 2 houses cuts off the LBs.
Posted By: Candy_Crusher Re: Letting go - 02/16/18 09:48 PM
Thanks for bumping NED. OMG, you have gone through a lot. So you did get married a little over a year ago and your new husband moved out? What went wrong? Did you see any signs while dating?

I am trying to learn and not to critique you. Because when I began dating xBF, my son several times voiced his unhappiness and disapproval of him. When I talked to one of my friends who also remarried, told me "sometimes kids know better because they see things from different and more pure perspectives". She wanted to have the second baby so married this guy despite her kids did not like him, and it sounded like she was regretting the decision.

In my case, even I thought it would not be good... but dragged it on way too long, resulting in a huge pain that I could have easily minimized.

How are you holding up? Does his little boy know that you two are separated? Are you two trying to work it out?
Posted By: Candy_Crusher Re: Letting go - 02/16/18 10:32 PM
By the way, what is O&H you mentioned several times?
Posted By: abrrba Re: Letting go - 02/16/18 10:43 PM
Originally Posted by Candy_Crusher
By the way, what is O&H you mentioned several times?

O&H = Openness & Honesty
Posted By: Candy_Crusher Re: Letting go - 02/18/18 04:38 PM
Thanks abrrba!
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 02/22/18 06:24 PM
Yes, got married January 2017, but he got debilitating arthritis shortly before that, so his attitude and willingness to do things in the house or with the kids is almost shot. Everything is a negotiation, even putting his plates up. And half the time we�re stuck at the default of do nothing because how much negotiation can I do with someone who would prefer to be left alone. I can imagine how painful arthritis can be and I didn�t think it would bother me to do the lions share of the housework and responsiblity all but I don�t have the energy I used to and I�ve gotten resentful and so have the kids.

We are working on UA for now but I don�t know if we can make it. He plugged up the LBs finally so that�s one positive sign. He had a big tirade about my YD when we thought she was out but she was here and heard it and I can�t undo that. His son doesn�t know yet so he�s still here the days he has him. I�m sorry it took me so long to come back but I wanted to wait until I was feeling some hope.
Posted By: Candy_Crusher Re: Letting go - 02/22/18 10:31 PM
I am sorry things are not working out the way you envisioned. I do not like that he was bad mouthing your YD and that she overheard it. Did you talk to her about it?

My xBF was always hyper critical of my son. My son never talked back to him, but began resenting him for all his nonsense judgement, criticism, and verbal abuse, all of which, in retrospect, was xBF's attempt to control everything (and also it was simply due to his explosive personality - he cannot control his emotions, which is ironic as he LOVES to control other people and yet he cannot control his own irritation).

What are you two doing to fall back in love? You do not think you can save the marriage?
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 02/22/18 10:49 PM
Yes she told me the next morning and I was so horrified. I had already talked to him about anger management and he�s gone twice but it hadn�t kicked in yet at that point. I talked to YD at length that those things are not how I see her and I am very proud of the thoughtful young lady she has become. That AOs are not acceptable and I will not make her stay here she can spend more time at her Dad�s. But that�s not a good long term solution she should be able to be at home here too. She is back here on here regular schedule for now, 2 weeks here 2 weeks with her Dad but she says if DH is still here she�s moving to her Dad when she turns 17 in April.

I showed DH I�m HNHN for Parents how sometimes with stepkids you need to live in 2 houses if the child isn�t not enthusiastic but DH didn�t read it and doesn�t want to do that. So that makes my decision difficult I can try short term but that�s all. What we are doing for now is eliminating LBs and getting 4 hour dates outside the house.

HNHN for parents gives purpose to FC time- to teach the kids thoughtfulness. It is wonderful you were able to instill that even in a difficult circumstance. I�m sorry your Xbf worked opposite to that.
Posted By: SusieQ Re: Letting go - 02/23/18 01:37 AM
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
I will not make her stay here she can spend more time at her Dad&#146;s. But that&#146;s not a good long term solution she should be able to be at home here too. She is back here on here regular schedule for now, 2 weeks here 2 weeks with her Dad but she says if DH is still here she&#146;s moving to her Dad when she turns 17 in April.

It sounds like you are risking your relationship with your teenage daughter for a marriage that has a very low chance of being successful, NED.

Have you considered asking Dr Harley for advice?
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Letting go - 02/23/18 02:06 AM
Originally Posted by SusieQ
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
I will not make her stay here she can spend more time at her Dad&#146;s. But that&#146;s not a good long term solution she should be able to be at home here too. She is back here on here regular schedule for now, 2 weeks here 2 weeks with her Dad but she says if DH is still here she&#146;s moving to her Dad when she turns 17 in April.

It sounds like you are risking your relationship with your teenage daughter for a marriage that has a very low chance of being successful, NED.

Have you considered asking Dr Harley for advice?
I so agree with SusieQ. I also second that you should write Dr. Harley.
Posted By: Candy_Crusher Re: Letting go - 02/23/18 03:19 PM
NED, your situation sounds so similar to what I went through over the past several years. Clearly you two are married, and I wasn't, which is a big difference, but I feel your daughter's pain. Angry outburst is such a love buster. I do not believe your husband can easily change that unfortunately. My xBF had one of the worst AO I have seen. He has gone to the anger management class too and claimed "I'm all in control" but he kept destroying all relationships - not only with my son and with me - but with his own family members, best friends, neighbors, co workers..... men and women, it really does not matter. He cannot control his anger and just snaps. I hope your husband's temper is not as bad, but it is not an easy fix. I hope he has enough sense and maturity to see the damage he has done to your daughter and relationship with you but often times people with bad temper justify their behaviors and anger. As others suggest, I think talking to Dr. Harley is a great idea.

I am sorry but I am not very familiar with all the acronyms. DH is your current husband or Divorced Husband, i.e., your exH? HNHN and FC?

Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 02/23/18 03:55 PM
DH is my current husband, HNHN is His Needs Her Needs book, and FC is Family Commitment time. I am thinking I should talk to DH about writing Dr. H together, like maybe there is still some hope there. I am hoping trying from 2 houses, because YD is with me only halftime anyway, would give me a chance both to be with DD and try in my marriage.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Letting go - 02/23/18 04:05 PM
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
DH is my current husband, HNHN is His Needs Her Needs book, and FC is Family Commitment time. I am thinking I should talk to DH about writing Dr. H together, like maybe there is still some hope there. I am hoping trying from 2 houses, because YD is with me only halftime anyway, would give me a chance both to be with DD and try in my marriage.
Why do you want to write it together when you need to be asking what "you" should do? If he wants to take the initiative to try and fix his marriage let that be on him, but to me this just seems like another thing you're trying to "do for him".

Posted By: SusieQ Re: Letting go - 02/23/18 06:13 PM
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
I am thinking I should talk to DH about writing Dr. H together, like maybe there is still some hope there.

All right, so I'm going to be very blunt with you here. Because I've found over the years of posting here on MB that that is the only way to get through to people, particularly people who are in a fog.

You admitted yourself earlier in the thread that you are foggy when it comes to this man, because your family, your daughter and people on this forum were warning you about this guy - not to mention you ignored Dr Harley's advice when it comes to single mothers staying single after divorce, emphasizing the need to keep your children away from further trauma after they have already experienced the misery of their family being broken apart.

No, do not include your H in this email to Dr Harley. That is the last thing you want to do if you want Dr Harley to have an accurate picture of what is happening.

Your H sounds mean and nasty, and the fact that he has AO's and takes his anger and disrespect out on your child is ALARMING. The fact that she is telling you she is preparing to move full-time to her father's is ALARMING. I have a dear friend who went through something similar to what your DD is going through with her mother and it permanently damaged their relationship and it hurt her deeply as a person.

If it looks to me, an outsider, like you are putting a bad marriage ahead of your child's welfare, then I am sure your daughter is feeling that too. I hope you write to Dr Harley ASAP, without your H's input.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 02/23/18 06:40 PM
Brain, Susie, I get you. It�s the same thing my OD has been telling me from before the marriage. So if I let DH know this weekend that I�m going ahead and filing, do you still recommend to write to Dr. H? I have written to him before when I was all confused but I get what you�re saying there taking action will remove that confusion.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 03/01/18 07:15 PM
I was unable to get his to move out so far. Here's my letter I sent to Dr. H, I'll let you know what he advises. Thanks for the suggestion.

Quote
Dear Dr. Harley,

I had another question on the board and the posters suggested I check in with you for your insight. I have been an active member on the MB forum since 2005, I post as NewEveryDay over there. I tried to save my first marriage, but my ex's drinking made it impossible to resolve our other issues together.

When I started dating my second husband, the board cautioned me that you advise single mothers staying single after divorce, and to hold off remarrying until after the kids are grown. But I had thought I had found an exception. I found someone I thought was a real man of character and would be an asset in raising my family, and got married January 2017. My kids, who are 16 and 21, had cautioned me that they were not close with him, but I thought we would all blend once we were in one home after getting married. We did not live together before getting married. My husband also has an 8 year old son who I get along well with who is here 2 days a week and every other weekend.

My husband had a few angry outbursts before getting married, but assured me he was sorry and it would not happen again. Over the last year, he had a few angry outbursts again, so I asked him to do anger management, the way I had seen recommended on the board. We have had a few other issues as well. He got severe arthritis shortly before we married, so his attitude and willingness to do things in the house or with the kids is almost shot. Everything is a negotiation. And half the time we�re stuck at the default of do nothing because how much negotiation can I do with someone who would prefer to be left alone. I can imagine how painful arthritis can be and I didn�t think it would bother me to do the lions share of the housework and responsibility and all but I�ve gotten resentful and so have my kids.

He had a big tirade a month ago about my 16 year old daughter when we thought she was out of the house. But she was here and heard it and I can�t undo that, so I asked for separation while the anger management kicks in. She says she wants to go stay with her father full-time instead of 50 50 custody we were doing. She went to stay with her father full-time this summer also, but I had her come back to 50 50 for the school year. His son doesn�t know so my husband are still here the days he has his son, but at his mother the other days.

I showed my husband the chapter in his Needs her Needs for Parents, which talks how sometimes with stepkids you need to live in 2 houses if the child isn�t not enthusiastic, but he didn�t read it and doesn�t want to do that. What we are doing for now is eliminating LBs and getting UA time outside the house. He plugged up the Love Busters finally and is negotiating again so that�s one positive sign.

What would you advise? Is it worth trying to make a short term marriage work, when my daughter?

Thanks,
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 03/02/18 09:57 PM
They answered my letter today in the first 2 segments. I feel so much more clear and empowered now and am so grateful they answered.

Quote
You can listen to a replay of today�s show by going to our website: www.marriagebuilders.com. On the homepage click the tab �Rebroadcast� or �Listen Now.� Or you can listen on your Marriage Builders App.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Letting go - 03/02/18 11:09 PM
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
They answered my letter today in the first 2 segments. I feel so much more clear and empowered now and am so grateful they answered.

Quote
You can listen to a replay of today�s show by going to our website: www.marriagebuilders.com. On the homepage click the tab �Rebroadcast� or �Listen Now.� Or you can listen on your Marriage Builders App.
That�s wonderful. I haven�t had a chance to listen. What did they say?
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 03/03/18 08:34 PM
Brain, first thing was to go to my YD and ask her, what would she advise, because she is the most important thing to me. And to stay separated until YD is grown and out of the house. He went further, using the example of the family in HNHN for Parents where the stepdaughter cut up the stepmother's clothes in her closet, that this is the same advice he would give even when there are no AOs, and even when the stepchild is a problem child.

He went on to say that all good things should come from the stepparent, and the discipline comes from the natural parent. As with an intact family, gifts and discipline fall under POJA.

They also said DH should apologize to YD. That it may not resolve the situation, but it is still worth doing. To hear from DH what he would like to say, and then I could add to that. They gave some great wording to include. And then suggested following up with the Love Busters book and HNHN for Parents.

I wish I had given her my phone information too. They offered to do a phase 2 for any followup questions.

Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 03/04/18 01:15 PM
I knew I was doing the right thing to separate but my IC/MC was saying to reconcile as soon as possible so it is good to feel validated in waiting until YD is comfortable. Even if that means when she goes away for college.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Letting go - 03/04/18 04:30 PM
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
I knew I was doing the right thing to separate but my IC/MC was saying to reconcile as soon as possible so it is good to feel validated in waiting until YD is comfortable. Even if that means when she goes away for college.
Have you had a chance to talk to DD16 yet? Have you asked him to move out permanently? Have you filed for D?
Posted By: SusieQ Re: Letting go - 03/04/18 04:48 PM
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
They answered my letter today in the first 2 segments.

They spoke about your situation beyond the two segments, in case you didn't finish listening to the show. They discussed your H apologizing to your DD. Did you hear that part?

It ended with Dr Harley saying something along the lines of, if your H is unwilling to apologize to your DD for his treatment of her that Dr Harley wouldn't have much hope for this situation.


Posted By: SusieQ Re: Letting go - 03/04/18 05:31 PM
Oh I'm sorry I didn't see that you followed up with the apology part. Is your H willing to apologize?
Posted By: SusieQ Re: Letting go - 03/04/18 05:32 PM
Are you going to separate now? Is your H moving out?
Posted By: Candy_Crusher Re: Letting go - 03/05/18 06:46 PM
I'm learning a lot from your experience and advice from Dr. Harley. Did your H apologize to your YD?
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 03/05/18 09:04 PM
I emailed DH the information for recording to listen to this weekend, and we spoke on the phone yesterday while I was away. He did not respond well. He was angry and said Dr. H is biased towards women. I forgot to put in the letter that we were separated but that DH had come back a week ago and didn't agree to leave this week when YD is here.

I got back in late last night from the trip to visit OD, and we talked this morning. I told him I undersatnd that he did not agree with the recording, but that it reflected very much how I felt and what I have said to him before about needing to stay separated until YD is enthusiastic again. He said he'd need some time to find a new place. He'll be out of town next week, taking his mom on a trip, but will look after that. I'm hesitant to go ahead and file now if he will move out. But I don't think he understands I can't just have YD stay at her Dad's indefinitely. I'm thinking to see if I can get a monthly rental for this month, and next if needed, remove myself from the situation.

Susie, I asked him again this morning to apologize to YD, and he said he meant everything he said. Even if he does think YD is a problem, it still would have said a lot to her and to me if he had apologized. Dr. H's plan, to separate again, work on the love busters book together, and apologize to YD is the best shot we have.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 03/05/18 09:31 PM
I forgot to say, I called YD and ask her what does she want, if she can have anything she wants. She just wants him not there the weeks she's there. She would like if she saw him if he would act like the renter at her Dad's house, a friend of OD. He brings her food sometimes, and asks how her day is. She asked what would I do if it was just me and not her taht I was making a decision for. I reminded her we're talking here about what does she need and what does she want. But if it was me alone I'd go stay with my brother, but I know it's too far from her school for her. That I'm thinking to see if I can get a monthly rental for this month, would she want to come stay with me there or would it be more disruption? She said she would like it.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 03/06/18 08:53 PM
DH came to me this morning and said he'd be out by May 1. His and DDS's stuff is already for the most part still packed up in boxes. He said we would file at that time. This is a timeline I can live with. I called my brother, I am going to go stay with them this week. He said I can stay with them as long as I need. Not that I can't be alone, because I'll be fine. I also emailed 2 places on Craigslist for a short term lease and are waiting for them to get back to me.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Letting go - 03/07/18 05:14 PM
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
. He did not respond well. He was angry and said Dr. H is biased towards women. .
redflag redflag redflag redflag

Silly women! Wanting to prioritise their parenting responsibities and having an issue with their children being insulted in their own home.

You need to stop waiting around for his permission and start putting your DD first. MOVE him out. It is easily done and he doesn't need to understand why. It is actually preferable you do it this way.

Because;
A) It reassures your daughter that you have her back. Running to your husband asking for permission to parent her your way, under your roof is not reassuring to her. In her shoes I would have a problem with him based solely on the control you give him. She will always have a problem with him as long as he is the one in control instead of you.
1)After moving him out apologise to her for moving someone in against her wishes and reiterate that it won't happen again. Apologise for being wrong - its a good example for kids and inspires confidence.
2)Spend absolutely scads of time with her.
B)It shows your husband that this is your deal breaker. That he needs to straighten up and fly right around your kids if he's ever going to get even the teeniest tiniest bit of your attention ever again.

Take the wheel here.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Letting go - 03/07/18 05:15 PM
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
DH came to me this morning and said he'd be out by May 1. His and DDS's stuff is already for the most part still packed up in boxes. He said we would file at that time. This is a timeline I can live with. I called my brother, I am going to go stay with them this week. He said I can stay with them as long as I need. Not that I can't be alone, because I'll be fine. I also emailed 2 places on Craigslist for a short term lease and are waiting for them to get back to me.

Let me get this straight. You can be out within the week, but it's going to take your husband TWO MONTHS and you're the one bending yourself into a pretzel making arrangements so he's not put out?
Posted By: SusieQ Re: Letting go - 03/07/18 05:57 PM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
. He did not respond well. He was angry and said Dr. H is biased towards women. .
redflag redflag redflag redflag

Silly women! Wanting to prioritise their parenting responsibities and having an issue with their children being insulted in their own home.

You need to stop waiting around for his permission and start putting your DD first. MOVE him out. It is easily done and he doesn't need to understand why. It is actually preferable you do it this way.

Because;
A) It reassures your daughter that you have her back. Running to your husband asking for permission to parent her your way, under your roof is not reassuring to her. In her shoes I would have a problem with him based solely on the control you give him. She will always have a problem with him as long as he is the one in control instead of you.
1)After moving him out apologise to her for moving someone in against her wishes and reiterate that it won't happen again. Apologise for being wrong - its a good example for kids and inspires confidence.
2)Spend absolutely scads of time with her.
B)It shows your husband that this is your deal breaker. That he needs to straighten up and fly right around your kids if he's ever going to get even the teeniest tiniest bit of your attention ever again.

Take the wheel here.

Agree with all of this x100.
Posted By: SusieQ Re: Letting go - 03/07/18 06:01 PM
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
Susie, I asked him again this morning to apologize to YD, and he said he meant everything he said. Even if he does think YD is a problem, it still would have said a lot to her and to me if he had apologized. Dr. H's plan, to separate again, work on the love busters book together, and apologize to YD is the best shot we have.

Ugs.

Your H is lucky he is not married to me. He wouldn't even get a chance to apologize. He would be done. HIs stuff would be in the driveway and the locks would be changed.


Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Letting go - 03/07/18 06:08 PM
Is your name on the mortgage or both?
Posted By: markos Re: Letting go - 03/07/18 09:25 PM
Originally Posted by SusieQ
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
. He did not respond well. He was angry and said Dr. H is biased towards women. .
redflag redflag redflag redflag

Silly women! Wanting to prioritise their parenting responsibities and having an issue with their children being insulted in their own home.

You need to stop waiting around for his permission and start putting your DD first. MOVE him out. It is easily done and he doesn't need to understand why. It is actually preferable you do it this way.

Because;
A) It reassures your daughter that you have her back. Running to your husband asking for permission to parent her your way, under your roof is not reassuring to her. In her shoes I would have a problem with him based solely on the control you give him. She will always have a problem with him as long as he is the one in control instead of you.
1)After moving him out apologise to her for moving someone in against her wishes and reiterate that it won't happen again. Apologise for being wrong - its a good example for kids and inspires confidence.
2)Spend absolutely scads of time with her.
B)It shows your husband that this is your deal breaker. That he needs to straighten up and fly right around your kids if he's ever going to get even the teeniest tiniest bit of your attention ever again.

Take the wheel here.

Agree with all of this x100.


Yep.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Letting go - 03/08/18 11:19 AM
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
. She asked what would I do if it was just me and not her taht I was making a decision for. .

Ned you have raised a wonderful, empathetic and considerate girl here who is trying to be far too responsible. She doesn't need to decide anything here because of course her mother will protect her from disrespect and callousness.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 03/08/18 07:29 PM
Indie, Brain, Susie, markos, thanks for your posts, I read them yesterday and I called DH last night and told him I have no reason to wait until May 1 to file, I will draw up the papers tomorrow and send it to him to review. We have a simple dissolution process for when it's uncontested and no one is asking for maintenance or a hearing, that goes through in 4 weeks. I have a prepaid legal plan from work if he wants to run it by someone representing him. I already talked to my divorce attorney friend and she recommended this as the fastest way.

He called me back 2 hours later and told me he is sorry and I was right yesterday about separating instead of divorce. That he sees how hateful he's been and he is going to do the work to change. That he sees my mind is made up but wants me to consider it. I am so sad that this comes now after he burned all the bridges. I went into way too much detail that even if we wait until YD leaves home to try again, that this is no way to raise DSS, with that hatefulness. And I don't deserve that either.

I called DH this morning and let him know I thought on it and told him I'd be willing to separate instead of divorce if he (1) signed a post nup, because I had asked for a prenup back before we married and he had wouldn't (2) Reviewed the list of the changes in action that I need and let me know his plan of action. I was honest with him, that I have given him the benefit of the doubt and have been proven wrong time and time again, and at this point I have no way to know whether he even means what he says about being sorry and willingness to change. That I do not believe in him nor in us at this point. I am willing to try separation under these conditions only to honor my vows.

I asked him again that if he is trying to give this a chance, that when he comes back from his trip next week, to go stay with his mom so I can have YD back, I already gave up this week with her because she doesn't want to be here when he's here. He said he had a falling out with his mom the last time he was there. He talks to her the same disrespectful way he had been with me, "You're going to have lunch ready for when we get there at 1, right?" instead of offering to help make lunch. I'm not surprised.

I doubt he would be willing to sign a post nup, he had balked before, so I'm preparing my paperwork today and will give it to him to review. Including the quit claim deed. The mortgage is in my name only. I had told him about that last night and he had agreed. My plan longer term is to rent out the house for extra income and buy a nice 2 bedroom condo for me and YD.

YD told her Dad yesterday like this was her fault. I called her and made plans to take her to dinner tonight. I apologized for asking her so many times to keep trying and and grateful for how she's been very supportive even against her better judgment. I explained it's natural for kids to feel like this is their fault, but it never is. Dh and I are just very different with different values.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Letting go - 03/08/18 10:08 PM
Superb. *kisses fingers at the chef*

Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
.

. He said he had a falling out with his mom the last time he was there. He talks to her the same disrespectful way he had been with me, "You're going to have lunch ready for when we get there at 1, right?" instead of offering to help make lunch. I'm not surprised

This is your problem how? He can stay wherever he likes as long as its someplace else!

Honestly, the nerve! He should be grateful he's getting any notice at all after all the AOs.

I think he will hang around like a bad smell paying lip service when necessary and waiting for you to 'get over it'. You'll need to move him out yourself.

Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
.

YD told her Dad yesterday like this was her fault. I called her and made plans to take her to dinner tonight. I apologized for asking her so many times to keep trying and and grateful for how she's been very supportive even against her better judgment. I explained it's natural for kids to feel like this is their fault, but it never is. Dh and I are just very different with different values.

It really has nothing to do with her. Even without any of the children present he's an unpleasant, dismissive and angry husband to you.

Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 03/08/18 10:16 PM
I hear you. For all I know he could have been rude to her on purpose because he thought once he was back in the house it would go back to status quo. I got my paperwork together today to give him this afternoon all we need to do is get our signatures notarized and I can file.

I did explain that to her, that his AOs would have been an issue even if it was me alone. Dr. H said that too that separation was the right course.
Posted By: SusieQ Re: Letting go - 03/08/18 11:41 PM
NED, I think the most important thing is getting him out of the house. Once he's out you can file paperwork. Can you move his stuff out now or in the next few days? Just get him out.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Letting go - 03/09/18 12:41 AM
Originally Posted by SusieQ
NED, I think the most important thing is getting him out of the house. Once he's out you can file paperwork. Can you move his stuff out now or in the next few days? Just get him out.
I agree!! Especially when you�re the only one on the mortgage.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 03/09/18 05:12 PM
Susie, Brain, if it was just him I would, but he has his son here this weekend. He will be out of the country next week and does not have his son that weekend. He is not on the mortgage but his name is on the house, that's why I gave him the fining paperwork to review. This is the email I want to send but it sounds like the approach is very different than yours.

Quote
I need you to be out of the house when you get back from your trip Friday. You know how you asked to be at the house when you have DSS, and I worked with you. I feel the same way about wanting stability for DD. You said the other night you are sorry. If that is true, a way to back that up with actions would be to find a place for when you get back from your trip so I can keep DD for her time here. You had asked me for her visitation calendar and I had sent it in good faith. Before I decided to stay with my brother, I called on Craigslist and found something to go see that same day.

[Craigslist links]
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Letting go - 03/09/18 06:03 PM
I'm not sure how his getting time with his son is your problem?!
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 03/09/18 06:33 PM
DSS is 8 and I don�t want to make things unstable for him. DD already stayed at her Dad�s this week and I�ll be back at the house when she comes back Monday.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Letting go - 03/09/18 08:00 PM
Well your timeline is a good one so you might as well help out DSS since it doesn't really derail your plans.

I think using his time out of the country is smart and less fuss than doing it when he's expecting his son.

I'm just bristling because you have put more thought into his stability than his father has.
Posted By: markos Re: Letting go - 03/09/18 08:02 PM
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
DSS is 8 and I don�t want to make things unstable for him.

If your husband wants things to be stable for his 8yo son he should achieve that himself. You and your daughter shouldn't have to bear the expense of making things stable for him. If your husband wanted a stable environment he could've learned to eliminate his abusive behavior.

Don't be an enabler.
Posted By: SusieQ Re: Letting go - 03/09/18 09:51 PM
Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
DSS is 8 and I don&#146;t want to make things unstable for him.

If your husband wants things to be stable for his 8yo son he should achieve that himself. You and your daughter shouldn't have to bear the expense of making things stable for him. If your husband wanted a stable environment he could've learned to eliminate his abusive behavior.

Don't be an enabler.

This!!
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Letting go - 03/09/18 10:05 PM
Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
DSS is 8 and I don&#146;t want to make things unstable for him.

If your husband wants things to be stable for his 8yo son he should achieve that himself. You and your daughter shouldn't have to bear the expense of making things stable for him. If your husband wanted a stable environment he could've learned to eliminate his abusive behavior.

Don't be an enabler.

Agree! Your H can provide stability somewhere else, that is his job, not yours. Your first priority has to be your own family. You aren't helping your husband by enabling him, you are just helping him avoid his responsibilities as a father. That does nothing to help the son.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 03/09/18 10:07 PM
I understand. My attorney didn't even recommend to separate, she said the way to make this go the fastest is just to stay in separate rooms in the house. I am separated at this point, staying at my brother's. It's not ideal and I do want to get him out by April 1 so I can have DD the next time she's set to be here. I'm not trying to make excuses but I don't have a right to move him out so I'm trying to work with him on this. He left when I asked him to leave before until it looks like he wore out his welcome at his Mom's. I understand it's not my problem and there are hotels and all but I don't think I can make that happen and if I have to wait until May 1 well that's a much better future than what I was looking at a month ago.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Letting go - 03/09/18 10:18 PM
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
I understand. My attorney didn't even recommend to separate, she said the way to make this go the fastest is just to stay in separate rooms in the house. I am separated at this point, staying at my brother's. It's not ideal and I do want to get him out by April 1 so I can have DD the next time she's set to be here. I'm not trying to make excuses but I don't have a right to move him out so I'm trying to work with him on this. He left when I asked him to leave before until it looks like he wore out his welcome at his Mom's. I understand it's not my problem and there are hotels and all but I don't think I can make that happen and if I have to wait until May 1 well that's a much better future than what I was looking at a month ago.

Can you get him to move out now? That is outrageous that you are leaving your own home. That makes no sense.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Letting go - 03/09/18 11:13 PM
NED, he does have a place to go, he can go to his mother's. If he doesn't like that option, he could buy a home, rent an apartment, get a room at the Salvation Army. He has many options that won't displace you from your home.
Posted By: SusieQ Re: Letting go - 03/09/18 11:24 PM
NED, I would just (1) tell him he has to move out now. And then (2) if he won't comply, once he goes on his trip, move his stuff out to his mother's. It will be way too much of a hassle for this guy to get it back...I can just tell by the things you say about him. He won't bother.

You've got to stop being so nice. It's moved beyond nice to doormat at your daughter's expense. Just move him out.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Letting go - 03/09/18 11:29 PM
]
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
I I am separated at this point, staying at my brother's..

Just so you know, if he refuses to move out in April, you will be hard pressed to get back into your home because you moved out, into your brothers. The reason we tell men not to move out is because by doing so, they LOSE the rights to their home. There is nothing stopping your husband from changing the locks and forcing you to TRY to get back in. Any judge will take into consideration that you have moved out, giving him possession of the home.

You have to view divorce scenarios as combat situations and it doesn't seem you are prepared to even take the most basic steps to protect yourself and your daughter. You may not get your home back. I would strongly advise you to go home and make him move out.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Letting go - 03/10/18 09:01 AM
Ned, you don't need the 'right' to move him out. Nobody is going to give you a handwritten invitation, it's just something you have to summon up the nerve to do. My lawyer told me I didn't have the right to kick my husband out either; but that's just a CYA thing they say, to prevent you expecting any help from them, because the law doesn't get involved in this.

There's actually nothing stopping you and where did April come from? You have the ideal opportunity to kick him out when he's out of the country next week. Plenty of time! Pack up his belongings, send them on and change the locks.

Legally, yes he would still have the right to force his way back in; but why would he do that? He's got nothing inside to gain except the name of housebreaker and the displeasure of two women to face. Easier to go to his mother's where there's just one. He also runs a big risk that you'll call the cops and that they'll side with you and your daughter over his decision to break in. Particularly since this is a civil matter for lawyers to deal with and YOUR name is the only one on the mortgage! (mine was joint and I still didn't give a hoot)

He runs an even bigger risk; displeasing you. Think on that for a minute. You do a lot for him and he'd be a born fool to get hostile with you and destroy the chance to reconcile in the future.

Even if you were to try this and fail, it would send a big message to both husband and daughter that you're not taking this outrage lying down any more.

That's what his behaviour has been; an outrage. He's never going to run the risk of hearing you describe his behaviour to a cop.

You also need to start instructing your lawyer rather than the other way about. 'living together is not an option because this is my daughter's home too and his angry outbursts are a factor neither one of us will put up with. Besides, I've already kicked him out. If he tries to force his way back in, what are our options?'

Obeying your lawyer's laziness as your daughter's planning to move in with her father is...not smart.

Posted By: indiegirl Re: Letting go - 03/10/18 09:02 AM
Originally Posted by SusieQ
It will be way too much of a hassle for this guy to get it back...I can just tell by the things you say about him. He won't bother.
.

So much this! It also works the other way around. If you wait for him to move himself out, it will never EVER happen.

Come May, you're going to remind him and it will be the easiest thing in the world for him to say "Are you still on about THAT? It was months ago?!! We've been living very peaceably since then. Honestly you women are so irrational".
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Letting go - 03/10/18 09:12 AM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
]

Just so you know, if he refuses to move out in April, you will be hard pressed to get back into your home because you moved out, into your brothers. The reason we tell men not to move out is because by doing so, they LOSE the rights to their home. There is nothing stopping your husband from changing the locks and forcing you to TRY to get back in. Any judge will take into consideration that you have moved out, giving him possession of the home.

He could absolutely do this Ned, and ironically you're already disobeying your lawyers advice! She said not to move out right? That's because she knows you can't force your way back in.

Which also means he cant.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 03/13/18 03:22 PM
Melody, Indie, Susie, thanks for your posts. When he called this weekend I did reiterate that he needs to move out. I'm back in my home now. You're right, it is an outrage.

I wanted to say too that I know my health would have been affected if I had kept trying when he was not effective in eliminating his AOs. He was okay for two weeks and then slipped, but that kind of thing is to be expected. I'm grateful I've been on the board long enough to know that if a marriage feels like that, it's time to call it quits.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Letting go - 03/13/18 03:28 PM
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
Melody, Indie, Susie, thanks for your posts. When he called this weekend I did reiterate that he needs to move out. I'm back in my home now. You're right, it is an outrage.

Bravo to you!!

What was his response when you asked him to move out? Will he go now?
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Letting go - 03/13/18 03:36 PM
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
Melody, Indie, Susie, thanks for your posts. When he called this weekend I did reiterate that he needs to move out. I'm back in my home now. You're right, it is an outrage.

I wanted to say too that I know my health would have been affected if I had kept trying when he was not effective in eliminating his AOs. He was okay for two weeks and then slipped, but that kind of thing is to be expected. I'm grateful I've been on the board long enough to know that if a marriage feels like that, it's time to call it quits.
hurray hurray
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Letting go - 03/13/18 03:42 PM
Good job!! So when will he be moving out?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Letting go - 03/13/18 03:59 PM
Ned, I just want to point out that many people will use your kindness and good will to take advantage of you. It is outrageous that your husband would even consider you leaving your home to accommodate him. That bespeaks a selfish [censored] who cares nothing about you or your daughter. He doesn't deserve to be accommodated at your expense; he deserves to be moved out.

I would strongly suggest you pack his clothes and change your locks. Your health and wellness and that of your daughter comes before his very selfish interests. Please stand up for yourself now rather than dragging this out, my friend.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 03/13/18 08:01 PM
He did not say he would move out, but I explained why I needed him out, because my daughter and my niece are displaced and that�s wrong. My MiL is out of town with her son so I can�t drop the stuff off there but 2/3 is still packed already. I figured I could put the stuff from the drawers and closet in the full sized suitcase he has. He was crying poor mouth so I will check with my attorney friend if I put some money in our joint account for him now can I deduct it from when I pay him out for the house later.
Posted By: living_well Re: Letting go - 03/13/18 11:17 PM
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
I will check with my attorney friend if I put some money in our joint account for him now can I deduct it from when I pay him out for the house later.

I cannot imagine how money put into a joint account could be used as a credit in a not yet filed divorce settlement. Money earned by either party during the time of the marriage is marital. Either party can use marital money to meet normal household expenses.

Do not trust him not to empty a joint account. Open a bank account in just your name and deposit your earnings there. Let him work out how he is going to fund his living costs. He may need to take out a loan from a third party.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 03/14/18 01:29 PM
living you're right, he's going to have to handle this one on his own. My earnings do go to an account in my name, and in the joint account is where we each put a set monthly amount for shared expenses.

I took a day off yesterday but will get to packing tonight.
Posted By: living_well Re: Letting go - 03/14/18 03:38 PM
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
living you're right, he's going to have to handle this one on his own. My earnings do go to an account in my name

Great

Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
and the joint account is where we each put a set monthly amount for shared expenses.

I suggest you consider changing this going forwards. Decide which expenses you will handle and which expenses he will handle. Present this as something which will be fairer to him :-)

Then let him deal with his expenses out of his account and deal with yours out of your account. This will give you enormous peace of mind.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Letting go - 03/14/18 04:49 PM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
That bespeaks a selfish [censored] who cares nothing about you or your daughter. He doesn't deserve to be accommodated at your expense; he deserves to be moved out. .

X100

The most shocking part to me, was DD said she was going to move into her dad's place in April, so he airily announces that hes not going until May, waiting patiently until Ned had effectually lost her daughter.

Not a word about how mortified he is, no offer to get out the way of solving a problem he caused.

It's obvious to me he cared nothing about destroying their relationship; was in fact deliberately pushing her out so he could up his AOs and focus on his control of Ned without her having any support in the house.

Despicable.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Letting go - 03/14/18 04:52 PM
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
He did not say he would move out, but I explained why I needed him out, because my daughter and my niece are displaced and that�s wrong. My MiL is out of town with her son so I can�t drop the stuff off there but 2/3 is still packed already. I figured I could put the stuff from the drawers and closet in the full sized suitcase he has. He was crying poor mouth so I will check with my attorney friend if I put some money in our joint account for him now can I deduct it from when I pay him out for the house later.

Use the money you were going to give him on a storage facility if you cant send his things to an address. Send him a letter telling him how to access his belongings.

Just think of it as a trash removal fee.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 03/14/18 05:53 PM
That is a good plan, I�ll get started tonight.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Letting go - 03/18/18 12:48 AM
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
living you're right, he's going to have to handle this one on his own. My earnings do go to an account in my name, and in the joint account is where we each put a set monthly amount for shared expenses.

I took a day off yesterday but will get to packing tonight.
Is he out of the house?
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 03/18/18 02:43 PM
No, I talked to my attorney friend and she said what I could do was have him sign to 30 days in the dissolution paperwork yesterday. But then yesterday he said he was not signing because he still hadn�t called the prepaid legal plan attorney. He says he�ll call Monday.

I�ll talk to my attorney friend Monday and figure out how to get this rolling alone. He works at a university and is stalling for May because once the students are done with school he thinks the housing prices there would drop.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Letting go - 03/18/18 03:39 PM
Why can�t he move out and move in with his mom now? Why is he dragging his feet? Seems like it�s more manipulation on his part?
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Letting go - 03/18/18 09:56 PM
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
No, I talked to my attorney friend and she said what I could do was have him sign to 30 days in the dissolution paperwork yesterday. But then yesterday he said he was not signing because he still hadn�t called the prepaid legal plan attorney. He says he�ll call Monday.

I�ll talk to my attorney friend Monday and figure out how to get this rolling alone. He works at a university and is stalling for May because once the students are done with school he thinks the housing prices there would drop.

Ned step one is getting him out of the house. You can worry about paper work stuff later. After you have an anger free zone to hang your hat.

The first rule of survival is to secure yourself a safe shelter before you worry about anything else.

This is your home! He's not welcome!
Posted By: SusieQ Re: Letting go - 03/19/18 02:34 PM
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
I&#146;ll talk to my attorney friend Monday and figure out how to get this rolling alone. He works at a university and is stalling for May because once the students are done with school he thinks the housing prices there would drop.

I would just move all his stuff to his mom's while he's gone (no law against that) and change the locks (no law against that). And then deal with the attorney IF he gets an attorney because he REALLY wants to be back in that badly (doubtful).

He's not going to fight you to move all his stuff back, I feel pretty confident about that. He's dragging his feet hoping you will cave so I would just take action.

Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Letting go - 03/19/18 04:13 PM
Originally Posted by SusieQ
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
I&#146;ll talk to my attorney friend Monday and figure out how to get this rolling alone. He works at a university and is stalling for May because once the students are done with school he thinks the housing prices there would drop.

I would just move all his stuff to his mom's while he's gone (no law against that) and change the locks (no law against that). And then deal with the attorney IF he gets an attorney because he REALLY wants to be back in that badly (doubtful).

He's not going to fight you to move all his stuff back, I feel pretty confident about that. He's dragging his feet hoping you will cave so I would just take action.

AGREE!! Ned, just get him moved out and change your locks. He is taking advantage of you and your DD.
Posted By: SusieQ Re: Letting go - 03/19/18 05:19 PM
I shudder to think of how long I would have been stuck living with my ex had I tried depending on a lawyer to help get him out.

Depending on a lawyer when you are in a situation where your daughter can't be around your H and you need to take action is a TERRIBLE idea. The lawyer doesn't care about your daughter or your relationship with your daughter and only cares about what will be the least amount of work should this ever go to court (unlikely anyway).

The worst thing that could happen is that he could try to fight you to come back in - in which case you make the argument that he is abusive to your daughter to the point that she is threatening to move out, has had angry outbursts, you two are divorcing anyway, and he had already agreed to leave. Not to mention that YOU are the one paying the mortgage.

He would have to hire a lawyer (you already said he has no money) and he would have to physically move all his belongings back (you already told us he refuses to do minor household chores due to his illness/unwillingness). Not to mention all of these things (hiring a lawyer and gearing up for a court battle) is a huge PITA. He isn't going to bother fighting you in court and if he did, you would probably win anyway.

Posted By: indiegirl Re: Letting go - 03/19/18 07:32 PM
Please listen to Melody and Susie! Dont wait for the lawyers, it will never happen if you outsource it to them.

They work for you, you're the boss. They will do exactly nothing unless you drive the pace and they won't do anything close to kicking out your husband for you.

Originally Posted by SusieQ
I shudder to think of how long I would have been stuck living with my ex had I tried depending on a lawyer to help get him out.

I would still be living with mine; attempting to live the lawyer's dream of living together (so they dont have to do anything) but with a separation order (so they get paid for something) in a bid to qualify for 'an amicable divorce based on a period of separation' rather than for the real cause of the divorce as accusations of infidelity are too upsetting to bother with. We might offend someone! (genuine legal advice I actually received). They would have put me in such a state of depression that I wouldn't have the energy to scold or fire them.

Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 03/20/18 03:21 PM
I totally understand the logic in just moving his stuff and taking his key, but I think doing this amicably will eventually be faster and less stressful. My attorney says I have a right to get him out in 4 weeks, and he is agreeing to be out in 6 weeks. After that May 1 date if he is still there I can still move him out at that time.

Indie I agree, one AO and I will call the police to get it on record and move him out immediately. He knows the last AO is the reason I'm seeking divorce over separation.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Letting go - 03/20/18 05:07 PM
I don't see why he would amicably agree to lose the person who wipes his nose for him. The person who puts a roof over his head.

I don't think that plan will work because he's not amicable, he's lazy. Susie has his number exactly. He won't bother moving out, why would he?

Lawyers love to bang the 'amicable' drum because yes it IS the quickest way to do things.

But so is a magic wand.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 03/20/18 08:13 PM
I hear you indie, I need to be prepared to jump into action.
Posted By: SusieQ Re: Letting go - 03/20/18 08:30 PM
I would never allow a man to stay in my house who is putting my relationship with my daughter in jeopardy - it would NEVER happen.

Again, I think you're sending your daughter the wrong message and if you told her what you told us about the reasoning (to be amicable and cave to his demands) I would really not be happy about it.

What about making things amicable and comfortable for her? Hasn't she suffered enough?

I'm having a real hard time understanding this, NED.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Letting go - 03/21/18 07:18 AM
Originally Posted by SusieQ
I would never allow a man to stay in my house who is putting my relationship with my daughter in jeopardy - it would NEVER happen.

Again, I think you're sending your daughter the wrong message and if you told her what you told us about the reasoning (to be amicable and cave to his demands) I would really not be happy about it.

What about making things amicable and comfortable for her? Hasn't she suffered enough?

This. This. This.

Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Letting go - 03/21/18 12:00 PM
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
I totally understand the logic in just moving his stuff and taking his key, but I think doing this amicably will eventually be faster and less stressful. .

Ned, Is this less stressful for your daughter? I would strongly encourage you to put her first and move him out now. There is no reason to wait and every reason to do it now. You can be nice about it, but I would move him out now without delay.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 03/21/18 02:55 PM
You all are right. We got an email from DD's teacher this morning that he's worried about a change in her. I called H and told him he needs to be out now, that it is affecting DD and she needs her routine back. H tried to give me his reasons again but you guys had given me the counterarguments in my head and I'm not buying it. I'm sending him information of 3 places in his area and if he doesn't follow up he'll find his stuff in storage.
Posted By: SusieQ Re: Letting go - 03/21/18 04:21 PM
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
You all are right. We got an email from DD's teacher this morning that he's worried about a change in her. I called H and told him he needs to be out now, that it is affecting DD and she needs her routine back. H tried to give me his reasons again but you guys had given me the counterarguments in my head and I'm not buying it. I'm sending him information of 3 places in his area and if he doesn't follow up he'll find his stuff in storage.

Good for you! Keep us posted!
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Letting go - 03/21/18 05:13 PM
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
You all are right. We got an email from DD's teacher this morning that he's worried about a change in her. I called H and told him he needs to be out now, that it is affecting DD and she needs her routine back. H tried to give me his reasons again but you guys had given me the counterarguments in my head and I'm not buying it. I'm sending him information of 3 places in his area and if he doesn't follow up he'll find his stuff in storage.

I send so many of these emails to kids parents and get nowhere. Good for you!
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Letting go - 03/21/18 05:24 PM
Good for you, NED!! Please don�t delay. He will just drag this out �looking for a place.� I would change your locks today and tell him to pick up his stuff out of your garage. He is a grown man who can find his own place. He has his mother�s home he can go to. Your daughter comes first!
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Letting go - 03/21/18 05:28 PM
� called H and told him he needs to be out now, that it is affecting DD and she needs her routine back. �

It is notable that he doesn�t give a crap about the well being of your daughter. He is only concerned about himself. What a jerk. Move him out, NED!
Posted By: SusieQ Re: Letting go - 03/21/18 05:51 PM
I agree with Melody. Get him out today. For your daughter's sake.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Letting go - 03/21/18 07:03 PM
Yeah, what is going on Ned that you are doing his house hunting for him? Can't he just do that at his mother's?

Either you're
A) After a reconciliation
B) After a good divorce settlement.

Both objectives would be better served by being a hardass here. He is never going to behave while he views you as his lackey.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 03/21/18 07:19 PM
Indie my xh didn't leave until I found him a place and hounded the landlady to call him because he never called her. it was that or call the police to enforce the date he was to leave. I was trying to get him out before it got to that point.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Letting go - 03/21/18 08:00 PM
But you don't need *him* to leave. You need *you* to kick him out.

You can only control you! We cannot control what he does!

We already know what he would do. Stall you. He is definitely not gonna leave. Its either you or the cops.

Do it without talking to him at all. Its far less conflict.

Just wait till he's out and Do it. Send a nice letter on telling him you hope storage is convenient because he never gave you his forwarding address. laugh

I repeat: you do not need his agreement! He does not need to do anything except own a non working key.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Letting go - 03/21/18 10:08 PM
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
Indie my xh didn't leave until I found him a place and hounded the landlady to call him because he never called her. it was that or call the police to enforce the date he was to leave. I was trying to get him out before it got to that point.


ned, he is grown man, he can find his own place. He can stay at his mothers. That is not your job to find a place for a grown man.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Letting go - 03/22/18 03:31 PM
Ned what's really going on here? It's clear you want to prioritise your daughter. You agree with the advice.

But no follow through when it comes down to it. Its always 'this is his last chance' instead of just getting it over with.

Are you afraid of this guy?
Posted By: Candy_Crusher Re: Letting go - 03/22/18 04:20 PM
NED, I wonder if you tend to think/act similar to I do..... I tend to come up with excuses for WH (or boyfriends)... That is probably because I feel 'sorry' for them. When they show any kind of remorse (even if it is only temporary) or weakness, you feel bad and cannot pull the trigger. For me, I almost ended up feeling like a mother (protective) of these men..., and ended up allowing them to continue with their behaviors that were toxic. I got an impression you may be experiencing similar feelings and that's why you can't quite 'kick him out' and are seeking a less confrontational way to move him out, despite your head telling yourself otherwise.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 03/22/18 05:53 PM
Indie, even though it was a short marriage, I have what to me is a significant investment in our home, my retirement account, and my company stock, and I don't want to lose more of this then I have to. My attorney friend yesterday said it would look bad if it went to court if I had moved him out, but not bad if I moved out for the sake of my daughter, so I was back to that plan.

He slept on it last night and today called me and after some more back and forth he agreed to be out April 1 if my offer is still open to pay for April and to move his stuff. I'm relieved we'll finally be at the end here.

The prepaid legal plan attorney called me back also, and advised me to take this deal to be out by April 1. That I could make a case and all and even have him removed from the house for his AOs, but it would be all risk with no guarantee.

Candy, yes, I did give him many chances, it was falling apart by October last year. He was going to anger management and that's great but still he blames DD for his AOs so I don't believe it was effective.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Letting go - 03/22/18 07:53 PM
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
Indie, even though it was a short marriage, I have what to me is a significant investment in our home, my retirement account, and my company stock, and I don't want to lose more of this then I have to. My attorney friend yesterday said it would look bad if it went to court if I had moved him out, but not bad if I moved out for the sake of my daughter, so I was back to that plan.

Is this one of the friends who told you good men are hard to find so being yelled at is ok? You need new friends.

Why is 'looking bad' worse than losing the rights to live in your home? To a squatter husband?

Did she put a dollar value on 'looking bad'?

And why would it look bad, exactly?!!! It's your home and your daughter's home and he's been trying to push her out with anger and insults. I've never heard of a court who priotised the needs of a grown man in a relatively new marriage, of somewhere he hasn't lived very long, over the needs of a minor's established home.

If anything they'll give you a medal with the divorce.

That is crazy advice and quite simply I don't believe it.

I did hear that advice OFTEN when I was interviewing poor, lazy lawyers who wanted us to do our own paperwork, and far from it being an issue in court it was never even mentioned.

Susies husband went after her very aggressively trying to get HER out of the house and at no time was her decision to kick him out seen as anything but completely natural. That was a long term marriage too.

In fact, if YOU leave it would look like you were simply abandoning the marriage (and rights to your home) on a whim. Without cause. THAT looks bad.

I'm guessing your cause for divorce would be something like unreasonable behaviour? So don't paint yourself as a marriage bailer instead of someone whose husband is intolerable and had to be kicked out.

Even if your region is no fault, courts are always on the sides of parents trying to give their kids a good home.

When you take the free advice of friends, you get what you pay for.

AFTER you've kicked him out, interview a number of people before settling on someone tough.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Letting go - 03/22/18 07:54 PM
Originally Posted by SusieQ
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
He moved some stuff, I figured enough stuff, but then yes was back within 2 days. He was paying a set amount every month towards the bills but hasn't paid that in 2 months now. I have been calm and I totally get that this is really hard for him, his eggs were all in this basket here and he messed it up. But I think he thought that meant it was okay with me that he was taking his time with things. I had to stop trying to pretend that I'm not upset, and I reminded him I never agreed that he could stay without paying towards the bills, and that I need to know when he will be out, and he commuted to being out this week. So I'm almost done.

I like the idea of some good comedies. OD and I saw the Monuments Men this weekend and somehow they found some comedy in such a serious subject. I've never seen Nacho Libre, sounds great!
What will happen if he doesn't follow through on his commitment?

I think you are being too nice and need to kick him out, now.

This was February
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Letting go - 03/22/18 07:55 PM
February 2014
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Letting go - 03/22/18 08:01 PM
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
Yes she told me the next morning and I was so horrified. I had already talked to him about anger management and he�s gone twice but it hadn�t kicked in yet at that point. I talked to YD at length that those things are not how I see her and I am very proud of the thoughtful young lady she has become. That AOs are not acceptable and I will not make her stay here she can spend more time at her Dad�s. But that�s not a good long term solution she should be able to be at home here too. She is back here on here regular schedule for now, 2 weeks here 2 weeks with her Dad but she says if DH is still here she�s moving to her Dad when she turns 17 in April.
.

Your daughter gave you a deadline and you have dragged your feet again and again. Don't sell her out for a few imaginary shekels in court.

How many of your assets is your daughter worth?
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 03/22/18 08:26 PM
Indie, no, this was not one of those "a good man is hard to find" friends, she is my age and always stayed single because she's a divorce attorney and sees the worst every day. I am doing my own paperwork if I can, and if that changes then so be it. My state is no fault, and I am the one paying the mortgage and all my stuff was still there, so I was not abandoning my home.

Yes, my ex-fiance was slow to move in 2014.

I am protecting my assets for them, YD is going to college next year. I've been talking with both kids at all steps and she knows I'm trying to balance all this as best as I can. At this point the plan is for him to be out when she gets back from her spring break trip next week, and we will file a simplified dissolution that would be done in 4 weeks without a hearing.

I don't mean to sound argumentative, and I appreciate your input.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Letting go - 03/22/18 08:57 PM
You're not argumentative at all!

It does sound like she has convinced you it's best to give him free access to the house and it's your house to do as you want with.

I even think your daughter knows you are well meaning, because even I can see that from here.

I just don't think you realise that's meaningless really. Intentions aren't magic so she'll go to her dad's.

So if he's not out April 1, what then? Kicking him out becomes Ok?
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 03/23/18 06:34 PM
Indie oh my goodness I don't even know. Listening to MB radio every day now, I know I need to be separated, that's where the healing starts. That's why I was thinking to just get a space for me and DD. From there I can file the divorce paperwork. That's how i got B out eventually, once the divorce went through he was given a day to vacate by. But I would know before next Sunday if he doesn't intend to move out April 1. This weekend we are going to do most of the boxing and he's going to find the place. It wouldn't make sense to set up movers and put a deposit on a place and then balk April 1.
Posted By: happyheart Re: Letting go - 03/24/18 07:45 AM
NED,

You are not being nice to anybody here.
You are afraid to act and are justifying it for yourself by finding excuses to be "nice".

Changeing the locks on him will force him to
-face the consequences of his poor choices
-handle this as an adult
-it will give him the chance to move forward in life
-it will up his motivation to find an appartment

All of that is in his best interest.

You are not acting from a position of inner strength but of weakness.
Abuse often happens when women volunteer for abuse.

How can you teach a person to treat you better, if he does not know you mean business?
Abuse usually starts small, with the abuser poking you a little bit to see how much you will tolerate. I am sure he is not talking to police officers or his boss the way he is talking to you and your daughter, because he knows he would not get away with it.

You teach people how to treat you.
I am sure you are finding much better excuses for him than he could come up with himself.
Instead of instantly drawing the line at the slightest sneer in his tone or DJ you will have enabled him by allowing to get away with worse and worse behaviour. That is why at this point he is not taking your wishes seriously anymore, because he already knows you are a pushover.

By drawing the line from the beginning, you deter seriously abusive people and freeloaders, as they will lose interest fast.
People who want to be in a relationship with you have to know from the outset that you don't take crap, so that they are used to treating you right from the beginning.
You cannot just leave it to others to treat you right, you have to enforce those rights, because most people are not perfect and behave better when they know it is seriously expected from them and they will face consequences if they don't.
That way you are doing others a favor by not being weak and lying down with "doormat" written on your t-shirt.

We are all aware that you are loving, but being overly agreeable is not the same as being conciously nice, it is being weak.

I hope everything works out for you and your daughter and That you will teach her to expect more fromother adults and that nobody has the right to take advantage of her.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Letting go - 03/24/18 09:32 AM
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
Indie oh my goodness I don't even know. Listening to MB radio every day now, I know I need to be separated, that's where the healing starts. That's why I was thinking to just get a space for me and DD. From there I can file the divorce paperwork. That's how i got B out eventually, once the divorce went through he was given a day to vacate by. But I would know before next Sunday if he doesn't intend to move out April 1. This weekend we are going to do most of the boxing and he's going to find the place. It wouldn't make sense to set up movers and put a deposit on a place and then balk April 1.

I actually think it would make sense. Losing a deposit and movers fee is only counted in the hundreds or so right? Losing the set up with you is way more valuable to a lazy guy.

My take is he is just trying to outlast your daughter. He will throw some money at some stalling tactics because he thinks 'hey she's nearly gone! Then I can have my home the way I like it and silly Ned with her silly female whims can focus on somebody important again '.

I think he has always viewed her as being in the way but tolerated her because shes nearly grown.

And I don't think he believes that you're done. He's waiting for it to blow over.

If he really thought his marriage was in danger he would have moved himself out into his mothers weeks ago, apologised to your daughter and booked the two of you a spa day while he repaired relationships.

THAT would have been the cheapest way.
Posted By: amac Re: Letting go - 03/24/18 08:58 PM
I wish MB had a like button, I would like this post! So on point for so many situations.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 03/26/18 03:02 AM
You all are awesome and amazing and I love you and I love this place. I know I�m not doing things at the pace that makes the most sense to you but I have found my path out and I have no fear of slipping back, it is all uphill from here.

I spent yesterday at the March for Our Lives in Parkland and those kids I marched with had so much momentum I was so blessed. My father was murdered for his postal key delivering mail in 2010 so the constant gun violence down here has been a constant drag on me so to get a ray of hope was unexpected. Everything in its own time.

H told DSS and emailed his xw about the move date and child sharing accommodations he wanted as a result so I don�t believe he would turn back now. We got all the stuff packed today, days ahead of schedule.

I�m so grateful I found this place, had I not I may have still been mired where I was when I got here.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Letting go - 03/26/18 10:26 AM
I'm sorry about your dad Ned.

Fingers crossed on the move out. I know you'd prefer it that way.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Letting go - 04/02/18 02:41 AM
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
Indie oh my goodness I don't even know. Listening to MB radio every day now, I know I need to be separated, that's where the healing starts. That's why I was thinking to just get a space for me and DD. From there I can file the divorce paperwork. That's how i got B out eventually, once the divorce went through he was given a day to vacate by. But I would know before next Sunday if he doesn't intend to move out April 1. This weekend we are going to do most of the boxing and he's going to find the place. It wouldn't make sense to set up movers and put a deposit on a place and then balk April 1.
Did he leave? Are you paying his first month�s rent?
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 04/02/18 02:51 AM
Today was a total disaster but he�s out. In retrospect with an AO man like him I should have changed the locks and moved his stuff when he was out of town and taken my consequences in court later. He expected to help him with loading and unloading the car here and at his mother�s. I told him I had to be at my brother�s for Easter at 2. Another brother called and said he and my mom needed a ride there and I asked H under the circumstances how about I go take my mom and help him when I get back. He blew up so bad I had to run out of there. He texted me once he was out. I had him leave the key but I�m changing the locks tomorrow.

He�s at his mom�s this month and has a lease for next month. I haven�t paid the first month yet but I had aggreed to that to get him out. I filed the petition for divorce and the website said we should get a date to finalize in 4 weeks. I am so grateful I got out instead of giving it more time.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Letting go - 04/02/18 02:56 AM
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
I had him leave the key but I�m changing the locks tomorrow.

hurray hurray

Quote
He�s at his mom�s this month and has a lease for next month. I haven�t paid the first month yet but I had aggreed to that to get him out. I filed the petition for divorce and the website said we should get a date to finalize in 4 weeks. I am so grateful I got out instead of giving it more time.

I am so glad you didn't wait any longer. Do you have to pay his first month?
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 04/02/18 03:05 AM
I do not have to pay. I had agreed to but it is not in writing.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 04/02/18 03:08 AM
Thanks for the happy faces. I am relieved he�s gone but I�m still shaken from this AO. Like a crazy glimpse of the life I would have had if I never found these concepts and taken them to heart.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Letting go - 04/02/18 03:22 AM
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
I do not have to pay. I had agreed to but it is not in writing.

I hope you change your mind on that and use the money for a better cause, namely you and your daughter! You would certainly be justified in not paying it given the disgraceful way he treated you today...

Very happy and proud of you!! clap
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 04/02/18 03:37 AM
Thanks you are 100% I am justified in not paying it now.
Posted By: Candy_Crusher Re: Letting go - 04/02/18 03:28 PM
Sorry that you had to experience his AO (again), but glad he is out!
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 04/02/18 03:39 PM
Yes me too thanks. It's all forward from here.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Letting go - 04/02/18 07:04 PM
There's no good way to get someone like this out!

Congratulations! I think you and your daughter deserve all the pizza. laugh
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Letting go - 04/02/18 08:33 PM
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
I do not have to pay. I had agreed to but it is not in writing.
I'm so glad he is out. hurray And I think with that last AO, he lost the benefit of you paying for him. Stay strong!!
Posted By: SusieQ Re: Letting go - 04/02/18 10:17 PM
Awesome update (except for his stupid AO)!

Hopefully things will quickly begin to improve with and for your daughter!
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Letting go - 04/05/18 12:16 PM
Good morning, NED! How are you doing? How is your daughter?
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 04/05/18 08:06 PM
Thanks for checking in on us, we're both doing really well. I was very close with DSS, and thought how could I still see him without having to contact stbxh, so I contacted DSS's mom at her work and she called me back the same day. I *really* should have contacted her before we got married. He got mad when I suggested it, but like it says in Buyers Renters Freeloaders you should not avoid conflict while dating, because that is how you know how you will handle conflict together after marriage. So he got intimidating and I backed off. That was my red flag right there, that neither one of us had what it took then to be real buyers together.

So she said of course we can still get the kids together, that DSS had told her how much fun he had with my niece, she even knew her name lol. And she said that it was the same with stbxh when they were together. That after the wedding he never once saw her family again, nor went to church again. That would have been really good to know. Also she said that DSS told her about stbxh's AOs at me, more reason we needed to separate. I was hoping he wouldn't remember it.

I feel more every day that I really dodged a bullet. I'm grateful DD came to me about her concerns about not wanting to come to my house anymore, knowing I would take her seriously. So many kids just act out in anger or blame themselves. I'm still listening to the radio program to get my daily dose of perspective, so I feel more and more confident I will not lower my standards and take him back.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Letting go - 04/05/18 08:49 PM
I completely adore that you and his ex are bonding over this and making playdates!
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Letting go - 04/05/18 08:50 PM
What was his version of the story?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Letting go - 04/05/18 08:57 PM
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
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I feel more every day that I really dodged a bullet. I'm grateful DD came to me about her concerns about not wanting to come to my house anymore, knowing I would take her seriously. So many kids just act out in anger or blame themselves. I'm still listening to the radio program to get my daily dose of perspective, so I feel more and more confident I will not lower my standards and take him back.

I feel so proud that you did this for your daughter and yourself. It means a lot to her, no doubt, that you took quick, decisive action and didn't wait.

I hope you continue to use the forum as a resource because I think the posters here could be invaluable in helping you weed out the bad apples in the future. Sometimes it is hard to see red glaring warning signs when you are emotionally involved. That is one of the great benefits of the forum. smile
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 04/06/18 03:53 PM
Indie, he said she was too attached to her family, but described a realtionship very much like me and my mom. Or him and his mom, for that matter. But that they make a big deal out of every holiday. Like me and my kids LOL, and when we were dating we would bring DSS to Easter Egg hunts, holiday parades, all of it. But he said he couldn't do these things anymore because of his arthritis, and it took me a while to put it together, that my mom has arthritis too, but will do as much as she can with the grandkids. It really helped hearing Dr. H and Joyce say they had artritis too and still have active lives. My mom can't be active like that, but she clearly wants to and expresses that to us and the grnadkids. In contrast, stbxh got annoyed with me when I asked.

Melody, absolutely I'm proud and grateful that I could respond to her too, that I wasn't so dependent on him that I had to made a plan over time to get out. It helped so much calling the Harleys and hearing the best plan forward for my family, so I could contrast that with what stbxh was willing to do. I thought I knew the program inside and out, but listening to the radio program daily is helping me to move forward and not linger my thoughts on "what might have been". I think it will make me a better poster here too.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Letting go - 04/07/18 10:46 AM
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
when we were dating we would bring DSS to Easter Egg hunts, holiday parades, all of it. But he said he couldn't do these things anymore because of his arthritis, and it took me a while to put it together, that my mom has arthritis too, but will do as much as she can with the grandkids. It really helped hearing Dr. H and Joyce say they had artritis too and still have active lives. My mom can't be active like that, but she clearly wants to and expresses that to us and the grnadkids. In contrast, stbxh got annoyed with me when I asked.
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I thought so when you said it happened suddenly after marriage but I'd hoped not.

This is really rage inducing and you see it a lot, people who behave one way while dating and then as soon as you're married its like hahaha gotcha! But of all the times I've seen it done it's clearly a conscious decision coupled with bold faced lying like: "Oh no it's my arthritis" or "The wedding was expensive, that's why no more dates for us! Ever!" or "I'm tired because I have an extra person to help me in life now, so could you just do it all?"

People say look out for commitment phobes but you have to be just as wary for super keen guy who's using a wedding ring as you would a lasso.

What do such victimised people do when they are brand new married? Think: "Yes I will be suspicious and give them all the side eye"? No of course not, they vary between heartbreak and pointless bursts of hope.

*rage face*

How many more times is he going to pull this before he learns divorce is a thing?

Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 04/07/18 04:11 PM
Until someone get smart and calls the ex-spouse! I am glad Dr. Harley advises that. I was afraid to do that because H avted like it would make him mad. Now I know that if I am afraid to do my due diligence because it would make him mad, that is a sign that I am not handling conflict correctly and I need to work on that before thinking I am ready to be married.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Letting go - 04/08/18 12:48 AM
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
Until someone get smart and calls the ex-spouse! I am glad Dr. Harley advises that. I was afraid to do that because H avted like it would make him mad. Now I know that if I am afraid to do my due diligence because it would make him mad, that is a sign that I am not handling conflict correctly and I need to work on that before thinking I am ready to be married.
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Bingo!! Your observation is right on...
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Letting go - 04/08/18 05:31 PM
NewEveryDay�s Radio Show
Segment 2
Segment 3
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 04/08/18 05:51 PM
Thanks so much Brain! I�ll listen again today.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Letting go - 04/08/18 06:03 PM
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
Thanks so much Brain! I�ll listen again today.
You�re very welcome.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 05/09/18 08:06 PM
My final hearing date has been set, next Tuesday. The movers were here last Saturday and all his things are out too. I'm *so* happy I didn't try to hobble along in the meantime with him here.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Letting go - 05/09/18 11:46 PM
That's so good to hear! You sound like you are no longer being dragggggggged down by a ton weight.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 05/10/18 12:24 PM
I feel like that too! It is still so confusing to me how he went from so loving and kind with his son at first to so miserable with all of us now. And surprised at myself that I believed him it was just the arthritis for so long. It's okay, I don't have to understand it, just keep myself far away.
Posted By: KeepLearning Re: Letting go - 07/06/18 03:34 PM
Hi NewEveryDay, I went offline for a few years, and just today happened to think about the MB forum and found your thread again. After getting caught up, I'm sad after reading you found someone to marry, but it didn't work out.

Looks like it's been about 2 months since your last post. Hope you're doing ok.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Letting go - 07/08/18 01:48 PM
Yes KL, doing well, thanks, it�s so good to see you! I�ve been working on getting my house in order so to speak. Fixing up my house, got back to the gym, eating right, starting on certification class for what I�ve been doing at work, started going to a new church that I really enjoy. I had planned a honeymoon to Europe this month with my ex, and now I�m going instead with my DD, and we�re really looking forward to it. I don�t know whether the marriage thing will work out for me one day or not but I feel so blessed with the gifts I do have in life.

How have you been? Isn�t it cool that there are still the folks at MB here helping folks find lasting solutions for their marriages?
Posted By: KeepLearning Re: Letting go - 07/17/18 07:01 PM
Sounds like you ARE doing well. And it's nice you can salvage your trip to Europe and go with your daughter.

"Back to the gym, eating right", that's what I'm doing too! I quit running last year to rehab an injury, and I've found that for me, no running = easy to gain weight.

"I don't know whether the marriage thing will work out for me one day or not" -- I hope it does. My wife and I recently celebrated our 5th anniversary, and things are running smoothly. It's nice to have someone who has your back. I hope you find someone like that.

Have a great time in Europe!
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