After a very painful 7 years of my practicing "marriage at any cost" and the loss of my wife to cancer last year I have sunk into a pretty heavy depression. I came to MB to help me heal and to understand more specifically what went wrong and I have found support while having the priviledge of posting here helping others when I can. I have learned a lot and healed quite a bit and God isn't finished yet but some things have changed and I wondered if how much of those changes are common to others.


Sexual desire is completly gone. I used to desire to take my wife in my arms and rock her world and when times were good for us that was not a problem. Before I was with her I had the same desire to please whomever I would be with eventually and would fantasize about how it would be one day.

Im not trying to sell the idea that I never had sex outside a committed relationship. I made that mistake. But out of the four committed in love relationships that I was involved with sex was more meaningful and satisfying. Commitment has allways been the real aphrodisiac for me.

I cheated twice on my first girlfreind when i was 16 but since my marriage to her at 18 I have never cheated once in a committed relationship.

Right now just having friends, taking care of me and getting back to being somewhat normal for my adult children is enough. Why do I never ever picture myself in a relationship again or desire to be close to a woman? Is it just a confidance problem? I don't have anything to prove to myself sexually. I don't feel I have stowed all the baggage properly yet and I have very little to offer to anyone in the way of support.

That can change in time but what the problem is I am not motivated to seek out a relationship now or in the future. Is this normal and healthy? In a way it is a relief and an opportunity for me to ground myself again and keep it simple.

It is a time where I must do some soul-searching and understand why I have a great need to be needed and will probably end up finding self-worth in service to others as this has been who I am since I can remember. I am scared of this attribute I have if you can call it that. It can easily turn to co-dependancy if not balanced right. But that is who I have allways been.

Right now my focus is to appreciate life and the simple things I have to be happy for. Its painfully obvious that what had turned into an unhealthy obsession when I chased my addicted wife around for years along with my vain belief that I could save her has taken its toll on me.

What was once a prommissing marriage with two shaky but loving people over time put us both into bondage. Now I have no excuse to not take care of myself or for depression.In the past I would shake it off and pull myself up by the bootstraps and kick my own butt out the door because I had hope for the future and wasn't going to wallow in self-pity.

I don't know why I would put on that face now other than for my children and the sake of others. For me the outlook seems bleak. God gave me this life and all the tools are here to enjoy it and that is what motivates me now is the hope that in time wounds will heal. God never gives us more than we can handle right?

Someday when I trust myself enough to have a close friendship with another woman I believe that its possible love could grow and lead to desire. Thats a long way down the road. I am way to needy and not anywhere close to ready for that.

I just wondered if anyone else has ever felt this way where they cannot even picture themselves in a happy positive and fufilling relationship again.

SSO, I think this is how most soon-to-be or recently-divorced people feel. In your case, you are widowed, but the sense of betrayal and loss is much the same.

Those of us who have had our marriages and dreams shattered by the heartlessness of our spouse's affair may be more deeply affected.

But I think this is the result of the wounding we have suffered. It's necessary to heal, and until we are able to look ourselves in the mirror and think of ourselves as worthy, we really aren't.

There's another thread here about online dating. I shudder to think of even attempting to meet people that way. But who knows? Maybe in time that will seem like a natural way to go. I can't say.

Speaking only for myself, I know I'm not unworthy, but I'm feeling scarred, exposed, raw and vulnerable. That, in my opinion, is not a good recipe for embarking on another relationship.

In my original thread I related a comment made to me by a late, dear friend of mine:

I thought The Leopard was the fulfillment of that prophesy. Apparently, she was not. So I will continue being the person I'm meant to be and what happens, happens. It all happens in God's time, not mine.

I don't think there's anything wrong with not wanting to be in a relationship. The depression is something else, but I wish I actually felt like I didn't need a relationship right now as well. It would be a relief.

But to answer your question, I did feel that way for a short period durning my separation. That I was going to go the rest of my life without a relationship, that I could never really love another, etc. It passed.

I think you are right about wanting to be focused on working on yourself. Even if you start to feel a change and want a relationship, don't let that sidetrack working on you. For me personally, one of the things I thought I needed was to have more guy friends. That won't chance if I get in a relationship.

You don't say how old you are, but if you just lost your wife to cancer last year, it is very understandable that your libido is not back like it once was. Grief is a very consuming and difficult process. I have belonged to griefhealing.com for nearly five years now and I'd encourage you to go to the "loss of spouse" section and introduce yourself and get to know some of the people there. By reading you will find you are not alone and the things you experience are normal.
Please give yourself time to find who you are, just yourself, and try not to worry so much about the future. Spend time on things you enjoy, not just things you have to do.
I don't know what your marriage was like, if it had problems, a lot of them do, and the people who lose a spouse to death cover a wide array of marriages, good, bad, and everything inbetween. Some people gloss over the problems after the spouse died, it doesn't sound like you're one of those people. You can speak candidly on griefhealing.com and know there will be someone who will relate, in fact, it will encourage others to open up and get real about their own situations too. All of that is stuff we have to deal with when we lose a spouse, so there is the missing them, the loss of companionship, loss of income, loss of that other person that does things around the place, loss of someone you used to confide in, loss involving holidays, loss of everything you knew that was your life...give yourself time to work through all that, I'd say at least three years for starters.
Good luck to you.

I ditto K's post.
There are plenty of widows/widowers that don't remarry. Some do.

One thing to ask yourself is if you are grieving or depressed. I've suffered depression often, so when I lost my husband, I was worried about sliding into another one. I didn't. The grief and mourning is very different from the grey haze and numbness of depression. That said, a year and a half later, my life still feels a litte at loose ends. I'm in an in between time.

Thank you Fred, your a good friend.

Thx Dkd, I will keep working on me right now. Im glad that I have that chance. I will never get into a relationship without using MB principles so when that happens or if it happens I would hope I allready have learned how to take care of me. Along with knowing my limitations...All that stuff.

Im 52 and this was my second marraige which was for 24 years. It had a lot of really painful issues for the last ten years but had hope in the ten years prior. The first 4 were a battle against her alcohol issues. I think because we struggled so hard I became so used to it now my mind doesn't know what to do anymore. So it is time to take a deep breath and learn to balance.

I will look into that website you have suggested. If you have been there 5 years it must have merit as you have insight IMO.

Three years for starters sounds right just to work through whats happened and the changes that I have to adjust to. I can respect the old tradition of being in mourning for 7 years before you seek another mate. that seems about right too, at least in my case thats a rough timeline I can speculate on.

Untill then there are plenty of great things life has to offer and I am feeling more connected every day

All the widows/widowers I've talked to have said there is no such thing in normal. And that seems to apply to when, and if, you have a new romantic relationship. There are just so many variables. A friend of mine married his wife less than a year after her first husband died. He had 7 fabulous years with her before she succumed to brain cancer.

One thing you need to consider is that if your marriage wasn't all that you wanted, you may have learned bad habits. Those bad habits may need to be overcome before you can be a good mate for someone else.

For me, the loss of my husband was radically different than the divorce from my girls' father. The healing has been different. (BTW, Fred, I think "differently affected" is probably more accurate than "more affected." When one loses a spouse to death, and the relationship was strong, it leaves a hole that cannot be rationalized away with "Well, she wasn't who I thought she was," or "He changed into someone I don't even know." ) Back to you, Sorted. I'm not sure I'm typical or that there is a typical. You may have some of the healing that divorced people go through along with the mourning of the death of a spouse. I know that my sister-in-law whose husband committed suicide had a different healing processes than me.

Thx Green for the support. I will make good use of this info.

I felt much better when I learned that there is no normal years ago and I don't think I have ever been typical. Heck some of the best things about us are the differences we have.

Thanx again Green. Do you have thread and can I look in on it?

SSO, my threads are all very old. I'm willing to answer any questions you have. The exception is the one I started 11/2008 when Mike died.

As someone who had depression off and on for many years starting at a young age, here's what works for me:
1. Therapy (talk and drug--the new drugs are awesome!)
2. Exercise--this one will seem impossible, just like getting out of bed, but it makes a huge difference
3. I talk to the depression. I imagine myself doing battle with it whenever I'm depressed. I try to identify negative thoughts that are the result of the depression, and not my usual thought pattern.
4. Celebrate the small victories every day. Getting out of bed is a victory. Talking to someone is a victory. Doing any sort of work, or staying organized is a victory.

SSO, you and your family have been through the wringer. You will come out of this stronger than you can ever imagine. Just think what you have survived already! I bet you one day in the not too distant future, you're going to be someone's rock. Don't know what kind of rock, but a rock.

Have you read a book called The Survivor's Club? I loved this book. It is about what survivors of traumatic events have in common. I bet you'll find a lot of aspects of yourself in that book.

Wow GG I gotta bring Son to work but this brought tears to my eyes.

BBL

TY

Thx again GG

S, I don't think you give yourself enough credit. I don't know you, so I could be wrong.

I agree with you that God is the ultimate Rock. It just amazes me how he uses us to be rocks for others.

I'll tell you something in confidence, or as much in confidence as it can be in a public place. When Mike died, I asked God why couldn't He have given Mike just three more years so that we could have had that time together. Of course, I knew it would never have been enough. But, the answer surprised me. "Who said I didn't already give him three extra years?" Okay, maybe God didn't actually use those words, or any words, but the answer was clear.
And as I thought and prayed about it, the answer further chrystalized. Mike didn't come into my life for a reason. I went into his life for a reason. Those three years, the best three years of my entire life, they weren't about me. They were about Mike. What I got out of it was a bonus. The physical evidence suggests that Mike could have died at any time in the last several years. His heart was very enlarged. But, he didn't. Instead we had a terrific relationship. It was the first healthy adult relationship either of us had had. Mike had never been married, but he wanted a wife and a ready-made family. He got that at least, and probably a bunch more which I'm not privy to.

Sometimes, we get to catch a glimpse of the tapestry of which we're just a small thread. I haven't a clue what your section of the tapestry looks like, but I know there's a pattern there. And all will be well.

BTW, speaking of empathy and sympathy.... One side effect of me learning to deal with my depression and life in general is I'm fairly tough. I see all the painful parts of life as "growth opportunities." We do our fastest growing and changing when we're so uncomfortable we feel driven to change. So, I don't feel sorry for people much. I try to empathize and honestly, I work on that.

In other ramblings, I think we were ill served when we gave up the saying "This life is a vale of tears." It's wonderful, and exciting, and joyful, but it's also a vale of tears. We do a disservice when we don't acknowledge that a lot of the time life is unhappy or stressful or worrisome, or just plain hard work.

Take care of yourself. And if I disappear off the boards for a while, you can reach me at my email.

OH, I almost forgot about the meds. Discuss this with your doctor. I find it ideal if your psychiatrist does the talk therapy, but I understand most of the time they don't. I like Lexapro, but have also had wonderful results with Paxil. For me, this new drugs, as opposed to the stuff from 20 years ago, work fast. The down side is I get all the common side effects, like constipation and reduced libido and dry mouth. I usually am off them in three months or so, but I'm unusual. The important thing is to work closely with a psychatrist on this to get dosage and compound right.

I give three years for a starters guideline as just that...a guideline...everyone is different, every situation is different. I made the mistake of remarrying 1 1/2 years after George passed away. I realize now that I was working too hard on trying to "rebuild" my life...it turned out to NOT be a good decision, he was a con man that caused me a lot of pain, financial ruin, and left me with a broken heart and trust baggage to boot. I wish I'd done things differently and taken more time to get used to just being ME, me without George...I have lived alone a lot of my life so it's not that I can't do that, but when you've had a great relationship with someone, you miss it.
I realize now that no one will ever be able to step into George's shoes. What I look for at this point of my life is entirely different...a friend, a companion, someone I can enjoy, but I don't expect what George and I had, that is extremely rare. HOWEVER, neither do I want to sell myself short or settle for less than I should have! So there's a balance to be struck. The main thing is taking my time, you can't be too sure! I am currently seeing someone and we are enjoying it and I'm in no hurry to change anything, we can take our time with it.

I have known others who did remarry soon and it was great, but there are also many who did that regretted it. Whether or not someone chooses to enter another relationship is a very individual preference. I have learned there is no "right or wrong", there is just our own way, when it comes to grieving. The important thing to know is that what we go through is being affected in so many ways on a vast level and that is normal and to be expected...within that range, there will be varied responses...we can't judge others' responses, but we can be here to encourage, listen, respect, and care about them. I have learned more from my grief site than in all of my life combined. I have developed close friendships with these dear people, and it is a place dear to my heart. Over the years we have cried, laughed, shared, learned and grown together as we went through our grief journeys.

Divorce and death have some similarities in that they both require adjustments on our part and getting used to being alone and doing everything on our own. They have differences in that with death you miss the person beyond belief and can't reach them...and with divorce you may or may not miss them but you recognize they weren't such a great thing for you and that helps you over them...however, the relationship may leave baggage. That CAN happen with death too if the marriage wasn't the best. Loss is loss, though, and it takes a great deal to make our way through all that it entails.

I wish you the best! You are here seeking answers and that is good...I have no doubt that you will make it to a happy place in life.

Regarding the meds, I'm on wellbuttin myself. I've been on it for over 2 years now, even before the separation and subsequent divorce. Like othes said, depression came and went throughout my life.

One trick I've noticed I use a lot is that when I'm feeling down, I ask myself what's going on my life that would cause me to feel that way. Often, there is no good answer, and I can just chalk it up as a medical condition. This reduces any added stress and makes me feel like I can rest, relax, and better enjoy whatever is I'm doing. There is nothing for me to try and fix.

And GG, I completely get your conversation with God reagarding Mike's passing. It makes perfect sense and a great way to look at it. That doesn't work well for those of us who's marriage ended in divorce or was just a bad marriage. God didn't do this. I and my ex made our mistakes and we need to take responsibility and learn from them. I could ask God why he didn't make my ex love me, or love me more, but I know it's for the same reason that he doesn't make me love him. Love doesn't mean much of it's not a conscious choice. I take the fact that God stated he hates divorce tom mean that he understands how I feel/felt and wish it were otherwise. Given that, I can accept it a whole lot better.

DKD, I know it doesn't work with divorce. I was divorced myself. In the case of my first marriage, God sent me several hints that this was not what He wanted. I ignored them, and it was a mess. Bill and I were deeply incompatible. Had we dated longer than a year before marrying, I think we would have seen that.

Also, I wasn't suggesting that what happened to Mike and me applies to anyone else. And, I don't think God had Mike die. Mike chose not to go the doctor EVER as an adult. His death was a direct result of not ever having a check up. It was totally preventable, and I'm very angry at him. I suspect that God would have much preferred that Mike go to the dr get on blood pressure meds and live a long and happy life with me. Free will is a real downer sometimes! We humans can really a make a mess.

And yet through it all, there are moments of shining goodness, of strength and clarity, of wonder and awe.

That is so right on! It's not that God enjoys making rules and regulations so much as He wants to spare us the heartache that comes with divorce...He knows the ramifications and how it affects everyone. So when we find ourselves IN a divorce, we can be assured He does know the pain we're in and He cares.

I have my own "God moment."

When The Leopard first moved out, she had no job, no money, no credit and no place to go (permanently shacking up with OM was not possible). I felt that she would very quickly come to her senses and realize that home was not only where the heart is, but also the roof, the food, the health care, and so on.

But shortly after, I learned that her family property, which had lain vacant for almost ten years, was being sold by the responsible relative and she would share in the proceeds.

My heart sunk.

There goes my leverage, I thought to myself. But then, a much wiser person than myself told me, "Fred, maybe your Higher Power is looking out for BOTH of you!"

Wow.

Having now had the luxury of evaluating the marriage from the perspective of time, that comment was more prophetic than I could have imagined!

You guys rock.

I just got home at 2 Am after working on a friends VW since 10 this morning.

I will respond tommorow evening after I get done babysitting for my daughter.

Thanks all for your insight and wisdom. I really appreciate it.

My apologies. I was trying not to come across as correcting or contradicting you, but I guess I didn't do that well.

No problem, DKD. I may have just been having a prickly moment.

This is so right on.



In my twentys I heard a line in a song by Billy Joel called "Scenes from an italian restaraunt" It was topic of discussion between two ppl about the breakup of two young ppl who got married out of Highschool. excerpt is..

"They got an apt with deep pile carpets and a couple of paintings from sears,
A big waterbed that they bought with the bread they had saved for a couple of years,
They started to fight when the money got tight but they just didn't count on the tears."


It is something many don't think about or consider when they enter into relationships isn't it?
That there will be heartaches and trials and changes that we didn't see coming and wont seem fair. Our plans together are the result of what we believe at the moment is real and we need to count on something greater than us, an authority be as it may, reguarding love.

As fred said above, God has a plan for us.

Theres a song by Garth Brooks called unanwered Prayer that reminds me of that too.


I have allways liked this story, stop me if you've heard it allready.

A little bird was not happy that it had to stay in his nest. He had no feathers and was not ready to fly yet but mother was feeding him and taking careof him well. One day when she was gone she told his siblings he was going to leave and at thier protest he left the nest and plummeted to the hard cold ground.

He was very upset and started to complain loudly. "Help me, Im so cold, Who will help me?" A Cow was standing nearby heard him, walked over and without a word turned around and took a plop on him. Now he was warm but he was aghast at what situation he found himself in so continued to complain. "Help me, look at me, I am warm but covered with cowflop! This is embarrassing, who can help me!" The noise attracted a fox, The fox said;"Oh you poor thing? What have they done to you? How did you get here? Where is your mother?,(not wanting to get pecked in the head by Mom if she was around). The little bird told him of how unhappy he was because Mom was so mean and of how that cow had been so cruel to him. The Fox offered to clean him off in the stream if he wanted him to and he gleefully accepted. The Fox pulled the bird out of the flop, brought him to the stream, dunked him till he was clean and then ate him.

The moral to the story is just because people seem to carelessly flop on you, it doesn't mean they don't care and not all that appear to be helping really care about you.

It applies to human nature as we struggle to get out of the boudaries we have to deal with that have been put there by those more wise than us. If we only would trust the proper authorities when things go wrong. Like a cop who throws you in jail after you drink and drive may be like the cow. The Fox who took you out and spent your money with you to get drunk in the first place because they feigned sympathy and help.


More later on other posts, They all are awesome

Im gonna go look at the grief site Kay. I started a post responding to yours that has become another one of my books I am famous,(or is that infamous?), for posting. I will need to cut it down but i still thinks its worthy.

Thx again

This has been the case for me also I can say in both marriages. The first one when I was 18 and married the first girl I had steady sex with since 16 in high school. My first love if you will. In those two years I grew a lot, getting away from home and finding out I wasn't as much of a loser as I thought opened my eyes. I had hope in life and that was what I really was in love with that hope and change. My future was bright and that was a great feeling. We were not ready for marriage but she wanted to and I was afraid of losing what I percieved as my source of strength. She built me up when I really needed it and I felt obligated. that alone will not sustain a marraige. .. but why was home tough?...


My Dad was a hard man but not evil. His obsession with money had caused a load of problems in our home but I felt I took the best from who he was and he was a hard worker. I had stopped going to church at 13 because I had given up on God doing anything for me. I had prayed and prayed and asked him why I was so scared as a child.(STarting at age 6 I remember begging God for help) Why did Dad not love me and treat me like I was a problem? Calling me a baby and not even thank me for the hours of work I did every day for him. I had tons of scars and stiches from accidents useing tools I was not ready to master like a table saw with no guard that had taken off a piece of my thumb when I was twelve because I was so scared of it and told not to be a baby and the countless puncture holes in my feet as I cleaned lumber every day for him. Hand caught in beltsander almost lost thumb and of course all the stupid stuff a kid does when he tries to prove his manhood. Of course when I got hurt it was my fault and the cycle continued. I did it gladly hoping it would make him happy but nothing ever was enough. I knew that it was not the norm but accepted it as they way he was raised. The constant banter between Mom and Dad on what was appropiate for me at my age just made me feel more like a wimp. It was better to suffer silently than to hear them argue over me.

My Mom who was a strong believer assured me that I would be OK. As a boy I needed a Father who at least was fair enough to give me credit but Dad couldn't, which turned into wouldn't as his selfishness and entitlement issues ruined his life. But to me as a little child God let me down because I needed the "Action" of a loving father and not just the fear of failure which translated into rejection every time I let Dad down. It would have been better for me if Dad had just came right out and told me he hated me rather than experiance his indifferance to me as he obsessed about money, who was ripping him off, why doesn't everyone just do what he says, and why is everybody so stupid and incompetant. Dad just didn't understand about childrens capacitys. All my boys have been taught by me that good enough is never good enough but I praised even thier smallest accomplishments when they were young as they "ahem", helped me on variuos projects and work. They are well adjusted and not afraid of hard work but have nothing to prove, and thier self-worth means you better pay them fairly.

If Mom wasn't around I would have commited suicide by the time I was 16. She and others in the extended family like Dads mom stuck up for me when Dad would go to far. A little boy can have scars from that kind of stuff but it was leaving home and the support of good balanced people that made me see that my guilt issues were all a lie. Lies my father believed and perpetuated on me because his values had somehow become twisted. But to a boy who believed and was brought up to honor his father and obey and trust him to be treated like a failure by him translated to I was.

If God was the ultimate authority why did he not give me the strenghth to please my father? Why didn't he take away my pain or give me a way to do whatever it would take to make him love me? So I in frustration did not understand the gentleness of God and aquainted it to performance and through the years an active faith or study of the scriptures did not attract me because nobody prayed as much as I did or suffered humiliation when all I wanted to be was the best man I could have. The love and understanding I had for others might have come from the lessons in the scriptures I heard as a child and my extensive reading and education but action spoke louder as I swore to never hurt my Wife and children and to stand up for weak and innocent people.

Just for background I wish to say that my father was brought up to work for what he wanted and not look for charity. His Mom and dad were Baptist and Farmers, Loved and respected by the community for there heart and hard work. These were the same things I respected also as a child and still do as I taught my children to earn thier own way in life. I grew up hearing "hard work never hurt anybody" and I believe I have lived that way. I thank my Dad for teaching me that in real life performance is important its just how he went about it that was unbalenced. His brother and rest of the Family saw that Dad had issues.It took time to see that my Dad was suffering from emotional problems that I could never have fixed. By that time so many other failures in life had affected me it was expotential and I had to realize how much of a mess I had become.

When I got married at 18 Dad showed up at the wedding and asked me what I was doing when I "didn't have pot to pi$$ in"?. He didn't see that there were more important issues in life than money. But I had a plan. The AF, then colledge while there and by the time wife and I were out, carreer even if we were lifers. My wife had gotten pregnant and the orthopedic consultation for my messed up legs came back negative so the service was out. I was upset at wife because we had discussed children and I begged her to wait untill we had established an income but she stopped taking the pill just before marriage. How was I going to act to this 18 year old girl I just married when she told me she was pregnant? I sucked it up. After all I was responsible right? So I made plans to serve by doing what was right and keeping my nose to the grindstone. As terrified as I was when she told me I trusted that it would be alright as she assurred me I worried to much. Yes I worried because I didn't want work and worry to rob us of time. Which it did.

Because I was an overacheiver I could allways draw upon determination and discipline to overcome obstacles that others at my young age didn't bother with or find important.
I was managing people and in a position of authority at 19 and trying so hard to grow up and do what was right for everybody i was responsible for. Everyone saw me as one of the hardest workers they knew and I had many friends while I earned respect as I respected others. My goals were simple but they seem the most difficult for most of us to achieve.
1. Get financial stability. You can't buy love but having a roof over your head sure helps relationships. I needed to ensure the provisions for my family would be there and remembered all to well what a struggle it was without the filthy lucre. Because my first child was born when I was yet established a fear came over me that I must sacrifice now to ensure him a future later. I saw this as responsible behavior...and love,
2. Save money and get to colledge. I had a good head on my shoulders and knew that I would be able to achieve a diploma if I applied myself in school. This was also a positive sacrifice for everybodys future...and love.

All work and no play makes Sorted a dull boy. My obsession with getting ahead now took away from time with my wife but it what she signed on for when she had a child before we were ready. I was no longer the longhaired rebel idiot she met in highschool who partied like a rockstar and the weight of responsibility had made me a seriuos hardworking conservative yuppie in training. I was proud of the change and thought she was too but I ignored the signs and worked to hard until she wanted to move to where her family moved to and when she got a steady job she had an affair while I had given up a great job in trade for two min wage jobs there.......so much for I worry to much...I headed back home and she decided to come with me but on the way she told me she missed a period...she was sure it was mine.

When my first wife left me and our son and came back pregnant with another mans child it caused a great deal of pain. I dealt with it as responsible and sensitive as I could but my wife could not bond with the child when she had to accept it wasn't mine after it was born. We stayed together for 2 years after giving the child up for adoption but when her sister showed up and started driving the wedge between us and bringing drug use in. It was over. I was still trying to figure out what went wrong in the marriage. I had stepped up and was living as a responsible young man who didn't take time to feel sorry for himself or party like the rest of the disco ppl did not because I didn't like disco, disco was fun, but I was trying to be so serious and had so many hang-ups that came from all the seriuosness I had thrust upon me. I was convinced that it was my fault that I was so unhappy and felt like a total reject now.

Not that its important but I was a pretty goodlooking young man and women would comment me and tease me about it as I would blush because I was shy but it started to be a problem when I thought there must be something wrong with me. I had turned down offers from lots of women but now when i was betrayed shouldn't I take them up on it? What was wrong with me? Shouldn't I be looking for something to make me feel less emasculated? I went to a therapist and he laughed at me and said,"So you feel bad about yourself because you have morals?" I tried to go home with a woman who was 8 years older than me,(30) and could not do it. I liked her and was attracted to her but it wasn't in me.

I felt stupid ,alone.rejected and disrespected and my self-esteem was in the toilet. I did not have anyone to talk to about it and failed to see that I was just reacting the way anyone in my shoes would. Instaed of accepting or seeking pastoral counsel I dismissed that approach as I still was mad at God for not being more proactive when i was a child. If Dads Mom and Dad didn't raise him that way. If nobody was allowed to disagree with Gram at her house and grace was said at every meal as we laughed and joked about life and the sixties. If dads brother was totally different with his children and my aunt was someone I fell in love with as a little boy because she allways built me up. If when anyone talked out of anger in my Grams house Grampa would shut them down if they were out of order as honor and respect for God was held in the highest regaurd everywhere in my Family. Why did I feel like a second class citizen and never talk much when Dad was around? At home at the dinner table if I argued with my sister he waould raise his hand to backhand me causeing my Mom to cry out. I had Dad/God issues that were yet to be resolved. My wife knew about them. I thought God didn't love me if I was around so many of his people and they didn't like me either. I was still trying to earn a place in Gods heart. I failed to see that I was allready the apple of his eye.

I sent her to her Moms with our son and with the dream of being a Dad who would visit as soon as I could afford it. Agian I was still filled with guilt and anxiety and it took me 3 years to cycle through the many mistakes most young men make at the ripe old age of 24. Trying to have casual sex and relationships with no commitment and eventually realizing the best plan was to wait because I wasn't built that way. Being still poor and living from paycheck to paycheck my plan was simple but was sound. Go to colledge and take sociology as a major. Get a BA. Go to a two year Law colledge and become a civil lawyer. Serve in law enforcment as I had learned the rules are there to protect us. I wanted to help the many people that I had met in life who were bitter and reactionary who lived in cycles that destroyed thier lives. At the same time sociology classes along with psycholgy classes would help me understand my own life and what I was about. I knew one thing that I wanted to be of service to people. Work to live and in that work see I was doing my part for others. I lived by the adage "There are no small jobs just small people".

I knew feeling sorry for yourself was poison, desparation ran rampant with most people as they tried to get "thier share" or be on the winning side of life measured by societys ruler of success when ultimatly it was peoples opinions that drove them to measure up. I was soul-searching with a plan to build a career and not feel pressed to do anything else untill that was accomplished. One day when all the stuff was sorted out and I could afford to have a relationship where money was just a detail to be taken care of responsibly I could have a women who I romanced with flowers and gifts as we shared a life balanced with time spent together doing what is nessesary to keep a relationship healthy. Because of how I was built and the shape of my confidance it was the plan I needed to follow.

It was a lonely time in my life Kay but I was doing then what I am doing again now. This time I will stay the course. The situation I find myself in right now is a direct result of my not following those simple rules God had laid out for us. Sex was for marriage only and marriage only if you trust Him first for your life. I was in that place where God was calling me back to Him. I didn't run back like i should have and trust him for my life. I was realizing it was me that had a problem with Him and he had given me all the good things I ever had. I should have waited and followed my plan.


The second marriage was about the first.


My second wife was as dramatic and filled with self-doubt as I was. She heard my story on how hard I tried to do what was right in my first marriage and I heard the same about hers. We made the mistake of feeling sorry for each other. Yes there were issues we could both see were hard on both of us in our lives but throwing ourselves into a romantic relationship,(rather me making the moves on her because I thought it would bring us closer) was done way to fast and if I had been more of a gentlemen, I would have done things right. Many of the issues we sought to right in the others life were important things that we both valued. We could have just remained friends and took our time. If we did I have no doubt we would have come to respect each other better. Instead we rushed it and it took all that we had to survive as well as we did. I still haven't figured it all out and I doubt I will. It was a long rollercoaster ride with both highs and lows and for the last 10 years now it has been mostly low for me. All I can feel is the pain of rejection again and that has allways blinded me to the truth of who I am. But I am working on that and this time I will beleive God that I am worth more than I feel as I fight off all things negative that seek to bring me down. I can't say that my second wife was a mistake as much as how we got together was a mistake and terrible timing. We often wondered what was God trying to teach us? Even when my wife was sober and we were praying every day and attending church.





Thx Kay sorry for the extremely long post, guess I just needed to tell ppl who care.

I probably should be putting this in a journal. It helps me very much to be putting it down in writing.

My posts take hours to compile. I henpeck at about twenty WPM and I often have to go back and edit as the words lose the flow after so much time.

I am going to print some of these and bring them to my therapist so they can gain insight. I know they don't have the time for me to get everything out of my mind during sessions as I would probably get messed up on details.

For those of you kind enough to read these thank you. I hope that if nothing else I have shown what not to do in relationships and touched the heart of those who might have found themselves here in confusion similar to mine at times. For those you are not alone and if you are married or in a relationship trust the rules that MB lays out for healthy ones.

You are all worth it.

Sorted,
Your stating your background with your father reminds me of my kids' dad...he expected perfection, way beyond what a child can aspire to. I remember telling my son as a teenager, to do things for himself, not to please me or his father...that he will never please his father, but that is his father's problem, not his, that he is the most wonderful person in the world that anyone would be proud to have for their son but his dad has unrealistic expectations...and not to be too hard on his dad either, because it is how he was raised and all that he knows (he's Italian). It is not necessarily that your father did not love you but perhaps did not know how to show it in a way that you could perceive it. That is too bad.
It sounds like you have taken your father's mistakes and learned from them, which is about all we can do. It is those very hard things that made you want to do better and treat your wife and children better!
What you write about isn't as out of the norm as you might think. I know my family had it's share of abnormalities and dysfunction...I don't think it's so much where we come from as what we do with it. You have tried to do the right thing in life, what more can one do? You mention trying to earn the grace of God, but alas we cannot...it is free for the taking. You see we all fall short of God's standard of perfection...but where He differs from your earthly father is that He provided a way for us and loves us as we are, and demonstrates His love for us!
No need to apologize for the length of the post...people will either read it or not, it's their call.
My own life could also read like a miniseries...much too long for a merely Sunday night movie! But it's all good, the hard places have helped to shape and mold me into who God has meant me to be, and the good places have given me respite from the harder ones.
You mentioned a therapist...are you in therapy? I personally think they can be of immense value in helping us sort out our "stuff". It's in being open to what God wants for us and our lives that we have the opportunity to live life to the fullest, lessons and all. It seems like every time I've tried to make something happen, it's backfired...that's tough because I can be a "take-charge" person.
I wish you well in this next journey in your life, may the best be yet to come!

I notice they don't have messaging enabled here, if you want to email me my email is kaycstamper@yahoo.com

Yes I am in therapy and starting with a new therapist this week. The old one was a nice women but she was to busy catching up on paperwork and looking at the computer to listen.

I mean, sometimes it is the people in my life who did not understand me that helped me understand. KWIM? There comes a time when I will throw off the depression and fight again but it will still be a little while.

I think this therapist will do better, During the interview she asked me. "Do you think your wife knew how much you loved her?" It helped me see that that was my problem. That when wife was killing herself with self-abuse it translated to me that it was my fault. Like there was something I wasn't doing to show her I loved her. I told her of course, I spent time with her, talked about everything. There was something missing I could not give her. ... Before I go to deep in that ..

Well I was thinking that its hard to want to do anything fun without her. She struggled with me in bringing up the our family and deserved more.
I see her face and remember how much I talked to God and asked "What next ?" Tell me what more I can do God and i'll do it. I thought about this everytime I think about being happy again and I cry. I lived for that day we could put the past behind us and be together in a healthy life. Maybe I am still grieving and i don't know it.

I guess thats part of how God works. She is gone but we have our awesome children to carry on in our place, so she is not really gone. As long as we remember her in the light God showed her in when she was strong. The woman I was attracted to and the one I loved.

Thx again Kay

Your wife was responsible for herself and if she had self-abuse, those were not your fault. I realize that men are "fixers" and often feel a failure if they can't fix something, but some things belong in another's jurisdiction or can't be fixed. You loved her, you had a family together, you did your best, you did not fail her. Some people come with problems, we just have to understand that. From your writing, you sound like a sensitive, caring, hardworking man, what more could one ask for?

TY Kay sometimes its just that simple too. I need to stop rolling it over in my head, Thats why im here also to "sort it out". Between all of the vets here and the storys its helped so immensely. Along with time.
I had trouble logging intto the grief site so i gave it a couple days. gonna go check into it again.

If you email Marty at tousleym@aol.com and tell her the problems you're having logging in, she'll help you (tell her KayC referred you, she knows me). Good luck!
You're probably analytical, like me...that can be a good quality but it can work against us too, esp. when we hash and rehash in our minds to the point where we should have just let it go.