This weekend I am heading north to my very first mens' retreat. A couple of months ago my neighbor (and the person most responsible for me surviving and coping with the losses of this year) mentioned this retreat and once again I fought my first impulse to turn it down and signed up.

He sent me a list of items I might want to bring with me: things like an extra towel, a warm jacket, running shoes (I run), a stadium chair -- you know, things I might want that aren't provided. On the list was "books." For the quiet times, I guess.

Today I went to a Family Christian Store. I bought a "portable" Bible, C.S. Lewis' "Mere Christianity" and -- I couldn't help myself -- a small book titled "The Art of the First Date."

Those who are familiar with my story know that I am deathly afraid of asking a woman out. I don't know why, but I just can't seem to bring myself to do it. I can do a lot of things that people would deem require "courage" but asking a woman on a date just isn't one of them.

For a while I didn't even want to date. It's been three months since the divorce was final. There is a woman I'd like to ask...

Perhaps it was being in a Christian store that convinced me to buy the book. I haven't read it (because I'm saving it for the retreat, of course), so I wonder if anyone else has heard of it? The authors are Hayley DiMarco and Michael DiMarco.

Given all the changes I've experienced this year, learning how to ask for (and behave on) the first date should be included, don't you think?

And oh, I may have found work! It really feels like it's time for things to turn around now...

Hey Fred, great to see you!

Very excited for you--both on the prospect of getting work and on the retreat this weekend.

I'm seeing a man now. We met through mutual friends. It was pre-arranged and we met casually at their house for a cookout and then we played games. We were able to spend a couple of hours in our friend's living room just talking with no one else around. That long conversation convinced us both we wanted to see more of each other.

The next evening he drove 2 hours to my city and we met downtown for dinner and lots more conversation. He was one hour into his drive to me before he told me he was coming to see me. I believe he then asked me if that was ok and I said yes and suggested we meet for dinner.

All that to tell you I was impressed by his confidence and yet he is not a single bit full of himself...

Men approach me often....but I would not consider going out with a man I didn't know something about. For instance, I might see you in the bookstore, appreciate your book selection, find you attractive...but hey I don't KNOW you at all and would not go for coffee even with you.

So you know this woman already? Are you getting feedback? I know that I could be much friendlier to men when I was married....once I was single that same (non flirty) friendliness would be taken for interest in them. So did you know her pre and post divorce? How does she treat you?

If there is definite interest on her part then look for something to do that involves a group where you can be with her but not have the one on one pressure. She will appreciate the chance to be around you without feeling the pressure.

Don't be afraid of women. Just remember it is hard to be a woman too and have to 'reject' men. It is painful. I had a waiter in a high end restaurant (I was 10 hours from home) hit on me. I felt safe because I was so far from home....and I did flirt back a bit....he asked to FB friend me (which I knew would have gotten him fired had I complained) which again felt safe enough...but wow when I got home he begin to hit on me HARD and I just hit the delete button and unfriended him. On the one hand I didn't want to hurt his feeligs but on the other, hey I just wasnt interested!

Keep us posted!

Fred,
I agree with SW, I wouldn't go out with a stranger cold turkey either. Is this woman in a club/gym/church/group that you are in? If so, you could just ask her if she'd like to go out for coffee afterwards. A lot of men find it difficult to ask a woman out so if you keep it low key it should help your anxiety level.
Mere Christianity is a good book, but then I like C.S. Lewis.

Thanks SW and KC. This woman is a member of my 12-Step program. In fact, I was present at her very first meeting (she celebrated 7 years a few months ago). Believe it or not, my ex-wife was the first one to speak with her after that meeting was over...

She's very quiet for the most part, but she led a series of meetings on the 12 Steps which I (and others) found very thoughtful and thought-provoking.

From what I know of her, we share similar likes: running and traveling. When we've talked, we seem to get along nicely, but her demeanor is always quiet and reserved, in any case.

In the seven years I've "known" her, she's dated a couple of guys, but there has been no evidence of anyone in her life at present.

What am I missing?

You see, I am totally clueless. It's embarrassing, really. I'm soon to be 59. I should know more about stuff like this.

If she's quiet and reserved, I think a direct approach is good. Reserved people, and believe it or not, I'm one, don't flirt well as a rule.
What if you just invite her to go with you for a cup of coffee after the meeting?
The other way is to enlist friends' help. Get a group to go out and her to come along. You sit next to her and walk her to her car.

Fred, I know you won't see this til Monday, and I hope you had a great retreat. Sounds awesome. I did one of those once. I wasn't really in the right frame of mind at the time, but I recognize it was a good experience even still.

You're starting to irritate me a little Fred. GRRR. I told you what to say to this woman a long time ago. Now the next time you see her I want you to march right up to her and tell her you'd be interested in having a cup of coffee with her or something. "Would you be interested in going out with me sometime?" I promise you'll get good results. She's probably wondering what's taking you so long. -Tell her you were waiting for Mars to go into retrograde or something.

And you don't need no book about first dates. Good grief. You're an intelligent lawyer for crying out loud. Ask insightful questions. Ask where she came up with the ideas for her series. Ask if she's done any traveling, everyone loves to talk about that.

sheesh! LOL. And you're not full of yourself, a very good thing.

Good luck Fred. You'll do fine.

--my D was final on Thursday this week. I'll probably start a thread here pretty soon.

Opt

Opt, Congratulations!!!

Fred, You'll do just fine! You're lucky you don't live in Oregon or I'd ask YOU out for coffee! Good luck, let us know how it goes.

Thanks, guys (well, gals, too!). I really am bashful/timid/scared when it comes to asking someone out. It goes right to the heart of my insecurity.

The book seemed like a good idea, since I found it in a Christian book store. How could it not have simple, basic values -- and not the "pickup artist" sort of B.S? I've only glanced at a few pages, but it really does seem to be the basic sort of stuff I "learned" as a youngster. Just good, clean, common sense (why do they call it "common sense" when it's so uncommon?).

The retreat was AWESOME! I'll stop short of saying it was a life-changing event, but doggone, it was close to it! I drove up with two guys from my church, and we had six hours each way to get to know each other better. While there, I was amazed that 300+ guys from all walks of life could spend an entire weekend without being profane. That men -- real men -- could engage in manly activities (a 400-ft. "zip" line, a 75-ft. "swing" aptly named "The Screamer," and more) one moment, and then join in song and close, personal conversation the next, was truly an amazing experience. And the food -- I put on about three pounds, despite the activities!

And I'm on the verge of working again! The woman who owns the software company and I have had several meetings, I've received the software from her to study, and we have agreed "in principle" to a working arrangement! In a week or so we'll formalize it, but there are already people who want to throw money our way, so this has the sense of real income to it, and not just a wish and a prayer!

This all seems to go hand in hand with an article I recently read, called "Why Did This Happen to Me?" In short, the answer is revealed in this passage:

Looking forward to your update, opt...

Fred, I'm so happy you had a good experience this weekend. I bet it was more life-changing than you think. I've found the few times I've done stuff like that, I tend to relate back to it more often than I thought I would months and years later.

That passage is pretty powerful, especially to your situation. Thanks for sharing it.

In lieu of me starting a thread (just can't find the time), I'll let you know I've acquired two kittens (one seemed lonely so I got another the next day). The kids sure love them. Me, not so sure yet, but i guess they'll grow on me.

I'm playing pool in a pool league on Tuesday night (why I'm up so late). It's been fun to hang out at a bar and know I'm going to be driving home stone sober, I guess I'm just kinda sick or depraved or something.

And as a point of encouragement for you, I've been officially single for 5 days and been turned down THREE TIMES for dates, Fred, 3! LOL. And guess what, I'm still here! I survived! And you know something, women are real nice about it, so my ego wasn't even crushed (I think they practice what they're going to say).

Go ask out your lady. You'll probably have much better luck than me anyway.

Opt

Five days and you're ready to start dating again? Wow. More power to you, opt! During the period before my divorce I thought I was ready, but keeping to the belief that dating while still married is inappropriate, I didn't. After the divorce was final, suddenly the desire sort of dropped away.

OK, maybe it's because I've been focusing on finding work, recuperating from my back problem and virtually trying to keep multiple beach balls submerged in water, it hasn't been a major issue. Or maybe I've been finding excuses.

Now that I've agreed to lead the next Step series, I may have more opportunity to speak with this woman, as it might be "convenient" to share notes and perspectives... hmmm.

Fred/Opti...

I have been essentially single since Nov, although we continued to 'see' each other until February. Our divorce was final in July and I thought that I was ready to begin seeing someone should the opportunity present. However, after it was final, and the opportunity was actually a possibility (I wouldn't even think about it before the divorce was final.)I found that I have almost been making excuses to MYSELF as to why I am not REALLY ready.

I recognize that to be good for someone else, I need to be much better for myself. So that has been my goal and direction. I have had alot of interest in me, and in some ways it is hard to remain separate, when all it would take was for me to smile a little too much or maintain eye contact a little too long.

I was at a dinner party last week, and there were 3 women there, carefully chosen by my friends to join us, who certainly showed interest. It was fun talking with them, but I realized as I did, that I still have some things to work out for myself before I bring someone else in.

I wish that I could TURN OFF my emotional side for a bit and just date and have fun. However, I am not a cold and calculating man, nor do I have an off switch. And since I have learned more and more about myself CONSCIOUSLY, I realize that at this point, while a hug and a kiss would certainly make me feel MUCH BETTER. It would potentially lead to more than I am ready to give. And while I believe I could walk away at this point, I wouldn't want to go into something knowing that she might be looking for more than I am willing to give right now.

I just need to find someone who wants company and conversation without really looking for a deep relationship at least for now. I would have no problem working towards something down the road, but I just have no faith that I could keep myself safe, if she was always wanting and eager for more.

Fred, you remember when the court date was over and I started talking about dating. That enthusiasm definitely dropped off - kinda like your situation. It was strange when that happened. Maybe I'll reign it back in, but right now I just want a small sampling of the world around me. I feel like I've been living under glass for years, I wanna get OUT.

JFIO,
Totally hear you. I've been hearing that sentiment around here for a while. I see the horror stories of people who have gotten into something more than they were ready for. I understand the vulnerability aspect and believe it's right to be very careful.

Fred, as usual, is actually doing it right by going slow. Fred, I'm trying to use you as a model (it's worked before). I also really enjoy the company of a woman (at least from what I can remember of it). Not looking for anything remotely serious and would certainly be up-front about it. Just dinner/coffee/lunch, conversation, and "adios." My safety net is that I simply don't have the time to give to a relationship even if I had the poor judgement to try to establish one. I have 3 nights to myself, one I play pool and another I'll be teaching CCD. Every other Saturday is mine. I'm really not serious dating material in any practical way, let alone emotional.

You're a good man, JF. When you are ready, someone will be lucky to have you.

take care guys

opt

Fred,
Glad to hear how well it went! It sounds awesome, and it's great that you got so much out of it.

Good luck to you and keep us posted, we're just sure she'll go out with you, so ask!

I don't want to t/j KayCStamper's thread, so I'm posting here mostly in reply to optimism (and others).

Today was a good day. I went to church this morning, and the most attractive woman (in my view) sat down right next to me (we met before at a church-related function). She has a terrific singing voice, and I complimented her on it after service. I'm not sure of her status, but she doesn't wear anything on her ring finger...

Then, afterward I was introduced to another fetching lady, who also doesn't wear a ring. Apparently she was invited to the same Thanksgiving dinner as I was, but can't make it. But this is the holiday season, and there are a lot of church-related festivities coming up...

I also raked the leaves, cleared the vegetable garden, emptied the hanging planters, and washed my car. Now I'm enjoying a Spanish Brown Rice and Spicy Sausage meal I let cook all day in my slow cooker.

I'm feeling quite accomplished and good about things today!

Way to go Fred! Slow-cooked Spanice Rice and Spicy Sausage sounds very good too!

I made Smoked (Turkey) Sausage and Sauerkraut today. Complete with quartered red potatoes, carrots, onions, caraway seeds and spicy brown mustard.

I'm liking this slow-cooker thing! Next on the menu is andouille and red beans...

Every Wednesday Fred. I've been using it since the week the exWW moved out. stick it in there before work and come home to a nice meal and the house smelling all homey. Can't beat it.
You have some nice recipes there. I've been sticking with the basics: chile, roasts...I may have to branch out.

Oh, I also got me a rice cooker. That's nice too. Works on the same premise which is good cause you don't have to worry about it or stir or anything. Cooks it then keeps it warm for as long as you need until you're ready to eat.

Opt

Guys, did you know that men who can cook are VERY sexy???

I just thought we were hungry.

Fred, you didn't need to worry about threadjacking, your comments are more interesting, anyway.

I love that you guys are cooking! It sounds good, makes me want to be right over! It's better than coming home to granola. Guess I'll have to get my slow cooker back out...this is the time of year for it too! Chili, beef stew, chicken and rice, yum, now I'm getting hungry!

Being hungry is good! In my opinion, there are too many guys who eat just leaves these days...., it's important to stay healthy of course, but if I'm ordering a glass of wine and yummy crab cakes, juicy stake, or fresh sushi, I would not feel I am sharing the 'fun' time with my date if he just orders a house salad With the dressing on the side

I actually think it is very romantic AND bonding when a couple cooks together.

I like that too. I can only think of one guy that actually cooked WITH me on a regular basis...and it was fun, plus I learned a lot. But then I think it's cool when you spend time together, no matter WHAT you're doing! I don't see many guys eating only salads, but the women sure do! That reminds me of when I was friends with my late husband...I was prepping him for when he'd meet the right one and I told him to put her to the test (he loved to eat)...I said take her out to eat on your first date and get her ribs...if she eats with gusto, she's for you, if she just orders a little salad with dressing on the side and then pushes it around on her plate for an hour...she's not for you.
The funny thing is, he invited me to a banquet for a club he was in (he had no choice of the menu) and they served ribs! I ate with gusto! We married 1 1/2 years later! And it was great...

That is so romantic! When you have such romantic memories, don't they make things a bit harder for you to 'meet' new people, as you tend to compare the new guys to the perfect memories?

No because that guy (fast forward 34 years) still wants me and I think he's a jerk...he broke my heart all those years ago and NOW he wants me, annoyingly so!

I'm not surprised. Somehow I get the sense that you're quite the desirable woman.

I'm not trying to be cute or fresh. "Desirable" is an adjective that seems to just fit in this context.

I agree with this for me too. I don't see the (ever so few, lol) good times I had wit the ex as having much bearing on my viewing future dates, or prospects or whatever. Everyone is special in their own way and brings different gifts to a relationship.

And I agree with Fred, KayC, You are a CATCH!! (When you're ready to be caught, of course. )

Opt

If I'm such a "catch", how come I've had such bad luck in that department? I've had one great super-terrific relationship, but the rest dumped me. It gives you a complex after a while. My friends tell me it's how I've picked, but I've tried (in recent years) to look for the right things and STILL it backfired! I guess that's why I'll just leave it alone. I feel almost like I have something tattooed on my forehead that I'm not aware of.

Maybe it's just that: bad luck. You know more about dating than I do KayC, and I don't know the extent of your history, so I won't insult you with attempts at advice, but based on your posts and what I've learned about you here, you're intelligent, sensitive, and willing to help others even in the midst of your own difficulties. That's special.
If they 'dumped' you (a harsh word to have rattling around in your own mind, by the way), I think they weren't able to appreciate your gifts. I had a brilliant professional friend who was having trouble holding on to a job for a while. When I asked what's up she would say "they weren't ready for me." And she believe it. Started her own business and did fine.

Take a break. But some wise person said recently around here: "It's a numbers game."

Opt

Yes it is a numbers game. I guess I just don't want that many bad dates along the way. I haven't dated that much...I guess I lucked out when I got my late husband.

Hi Fred,

I've been unmarried for over 10 years, and now that the kids are in college, I started trying to date for a permanent relationship. I couldn't afford a long distance relationship in this economy, so i ended that because neither could relocate with a job, and both have to have jobs to make it work. And there is no certainty about when our situation would get any better due to the uncertainty of the economy.

Trying because I suck at chit chat with a total stranger. I had a bunch of dates go badly and am learning, but its slow now during the holiday periods. So I just go have fun by myself and wait until the holidays are over. Sux being alone, but I have to get certain pieces of my life better organized to make myself available.

I had a great october, but i totally screwed up potentially a great relationship with beautiful woman, lots of common and we could have done well, but i over analyzed it, and scared her away. . . got the intense overwhelming chemistry feeling, and it blew up inside my head.

what i have come to the conclusion is that over 50, many of us get into a rut, or a type of living, and we don't have the energy that we did 20 plus years ago. I know a guy who is 58 and just by luck, found someone, but it took 9 months to get a kiss. he moved too quickly and scared her as well. . . but he also said if this doesn't work out, he will remain single as he doesn't want to do all the work. . . it is very stressful for me, and still is, am still mad i screwed up a great potential relationship, but i now dress better, have lost 20 pounds, am in better shape, and will have a better lifestyle soon.

for me, employment, living conditions, etc are an issue, so i am going to fix that. there is a great book to read, if you want, called, "The Game" by Neill strauss. You can learn all about what you need to do. I learned quickly, what i need to do, otherwise, it will never work.

the economy is making people hesitant as well, because you can't move easily, you can't change jobs easily, and so its just local dating. The beautiful woman was two hours away, and that's alot for every weekend daily commute, and neither could stay over each others if desired, so it fizzled.

anyway, here's an interesting web site.
http://www.seduction.com/blog/the-abcs-of-failing-with-women/

the author is described in the book "The Game" and he is for real, as is Mystery and Style from "The Game". . . I have seen the behaviors these people describe work both positively and negatively. Its wild.

wiftty

Milkshake, sorry, I misread you...I thought you meant the one I cooked with...in rereading this I think you meant the ribs date (my late husband). When he passed away I knew there wouldn't be anyone like him and I don't think I expected enough...after the last one I've learned to raise the bar. They don't have to be exactly like my late husband, but we had an excellent relationship that was working and keeping that in mind can be good. They should be good communicators, we should mutually adore each other, we should have that "spark", and should both care about each other and show respect to each other, etc. Those are the things from that relationship that I want to take with me. If I can't have that, I don't want it.

Hey Fred,
I think I have another option for you. I know you already volunteer a lot of your time with AA, but if you could expand that into other areas where you're not already a presence, you might not have to worry about the dreaded first step of asking a woman out.

Today I served some dinners at the shelter for homeless vets and there was this woman there who I talked to after, just having some dessert. She had to leave early but we weren't really done talking so she said "we should talk some more sometime" or something like that. Before you know it I had her number and she mine. I'm not sure, but I think she asked me out. All I had to do was be nice and listen to her story and ask a few questions, and smile a few times.

--Just an idea, partner. Good luck and I hope you had a Happy Thanksgiving!

Opt

Hey opt, it seems that great minds think alike!

Yesterday I volunteered to help my church serve a Thanksgiving lunch to needy. One of the women who showed up was someone my new boss introduced me to at church a couple of weeks ago. I only spoke with her briefly, but I also spoke with her daughter (making sure to get her name). She's an attractive woman, with no ring on her finger and no man in evidence that I can tell!

So, who knows? Maybe she'll be in church on Sunday, and if so I'll chat with her briefly about the lunch. A nice conversation starter, eh?

Thank you also, for the Thanksgiving wish. I return the sentiment, and keep believing that brighter days are ahead.

Great to hear your still heading in the right direction Fred. When you're ready, they'll start falling out of the sky for you!

I had a great Thanksgiving! Ate some supper with the Vets, a true honor for me. Went home and started painting the foyer. I've started a new tradition, lol.

Opt

The site was inaccessible for a while, so this is the first opportunity I've had in a few days. I thought I'd follow up on my earlier post

So it turns out she was in church on Sunday, and yes, I actually went and spoke with her. She even remembered my name!

The church was holding a holiday function that evening, and she asked if I was planning on going. I said I hadn't thought of it, but now that she mentioned it, it sounded like fun.

We left with me saying that maybe I'd see her at the event (okay, in retrospect I should probably have been a little more proactive).

I was thus a little disappointed when I didn't see her there.

I'm running a 10K this Sunday, so I won't be bumping into her at church this week...

Ahh, it'll happen though. But yes, it'd be good to be a little more proactive, try to nail her down for something, coffee together, something concrete so she knows you're interested.

OK, here's an update and a question.

Early this morning I ran a 10K. I was able to get home and get cleaned up in time to make church service. Afterwards, I noticed the woman I have mentioned here speaking with another I knew and I went over and said hello.

The three of us chatted briefly and spoke about a church Christmas show occurring this evening. I didn't commit to it, but following an afternoon nap, I decided to go.

The place was not crowded when I arrived, so I took a seat at a table. A couple sat down, but that left four more chairs. In walked this woman, so I greeted her and invited her to sit, which she did.

The show was entertaining, and we had some opportunity to chat briefly and even interact during the "audience participation" portion.

When it was over, we spoke briefly, but we were both also greeted by others and so we didn't have much chance to continue talking. Finally, I left, feeling that some small progress had been made -- we had been given an opportunity to interact, and that was a good first step.

So, here's the question, directed mostly at the women, but guys, feel free to jump in: Do most women wait for the guy to make the next move (i.e., to move a relationship forward, such as asking for a phone number)? And how does a woman make it known that she would welcome such a move?

Somehow, I feel like I should have said or done something before we parted. I don't like being pushy, but I just feel like I could have/should have said something to indicate that I'd like to speak with her/see her again. I don't doubt that we'll meet up in church again, so there should be another chance, but Geez, I'm so bad at this...

Make a move - you can't know until you ask.

Coffee after church or lunch sometime during the week.

Can't hurt man - can't hurt to ask :-)

If you are attracted to her at all, you should ask her out for coffee or lunch as Powerbane suggests. Definitely!

It's far better to ask and get turned down, than not and kick yourself later.

Do it this sometime this week... Don't wait till it cools off. Don't make a lady wait.

Take it slow, and keep it friendly!

...and yes, women DO want you to ask them out.

She made it known by chatting with you friendly like, by sitting by you when you asked (believe me if she wasn't interested she would have easily avoided that).


Not necessarily....if you have a way to reach her outside of church I would do that...she might prefer to be asked out in private...if you can't reach her except by seeing her in church then by all means the next time you see her say, "Would you like to go for coffee after services tonight?"

She will either say yes, which will tell you that she IS interested...or she will say no. If she says no, you still have to determine if she really has something else to do or if she isn't interested.

One step at a time.

You are doing fine.

Did you know I got married?

Coffee after church for sure. You're not asking for or committing to an extended period of time such as a dinner and movie. It's innocent but it let's her know you want to get to know her a little better. A great place to have coffe is a Barne's and Noble. If you have a topic you're both interested in you can explore the books. Great way to break the ice.

You know, I did read that. Kinda caught the entire MB communiy off guard, as I recall.

Congratulations! I hope this is the marriage you (and the rest of us) have hoped for!

And thank you for your suggestion. I currently do not have a way to reach her outside church, so I'll just have to find a way to speak with her next Sunday.

Thanks, everyone. It would seem the overwhelming consensus here is that I should just ask her. I like the Barnes & Noble idea -- we have one close by (it may be a Borders instead, but no matter -- they have a coffee shop!).

Well, I did say that I take baby steps. I know that "faint heart ne'er won a fair maid," but somehow my emotional DNA got messed up in that area. Thanks, Powerbane.

And Lookin4Serenity (gotta love that handle!), I heed your tag line

Fred you got me thinking again. You have a knack for that.
I was thinking of the many many times when I have refrained from asking a woman...anything; whether it be out for a date, or giving them a compliment, or even in my marriage when I assumed I knew what my exww's reaction would be or I even went so far as to place my own thoughts in her head and therefore stopped short of bringing something up (of course just another contributor to the non-ideal marriage that is now over).

All of the above are DJ's right?

So, if you apply that to the "I won't ask her out because she probably has a boyfriend/she probably isn't attracted to me/she might only like guys with blue eyes and mine are brown/she likes being single...." all the things we guys run through our heads when we're simply scared. Aren't we DJ'ing right there? If so, DJ'ing before a potential relationship even begins can't bode well for the relationship. Nor is it helping us eliminate those behaviors that contributed to non-ideal marriage (for me anyway DJ's were habitual).

Am I way out in left field here or not?


Anyway. On a simpler scale: I asked out the receptionist at the vet I go to for my cats. The circumstances seemed right and I told myself I'd really regret it if I didn't, so I went for it. Sounded like a complete idiot, I'm sure, lol. Well, she gave me the old "I have a boyfriend, but thanks for asking" routine, which I don't doubt.
So guess what? I survived. And now I don't have to wonder if she would go out with me or not. It's nice having that off my list of things to worry about.

Opt

I think most women wait for the guy to make the move and some of the ones that don't are often viewed as on the prowl. I've been told most guys want to do the pursuing. The woman usually indicates by her responsiveness, her interaction, whether she's interested or not. You took a step, and that is good, and maybe next time you can actually invite her out for coffee afterwards or ask for her phone number "to continue this conversation". Most women don't want hit on, so taking small steps is good...the important thing is to show interest and involve her participation and eventually nail something down in a concrete manner, like a date. Good luck to you, Fred!

Re: Opt's post...it reminded me of a story when I was young...I'd been going to the dentist and (he was cute enough and very nice) and we'd been talking about playing tennis and I invited him to play (tennis) sometime...that was when he informed me he was married. Of course I was embarrassed but he was gracious about it and I didn't let it change our professional relationship. Years later my kids were teenagers and I told them the story and they were mortified! "YOU asked out OUR DENTIST?!!!" like I'd really done something horrible to them! (They weren't even thought of yet, let alone born)
I've been going to that dentist for 35 years and we have a very nice (professional) relationship. We've known each other and caught up on chitchat as our kids were born, graduated, etc. and now his daughter works on my teeth as well as him. (wow, time flies!) And you know what? We do survive our efforts being turned down...it's not a rejection of you as a person, sometimes it's as simple as a circumstance or timing not being right. No one should have to feel embarrassed, at the best it flattered the other person, right? And gave us practice at social graces...


So while I wouldn't normally ask someone out, I find it's easier to start as friends with a common interest or activity that you can share and see where it goes.

Thanks Fred. Just to add on the Borders thing, it would probably be a good idea to already have the intention of going. What I mean is, plan on going after church on whether she goes with you or not. I'm sure you have several hobbies or interests you can plan on researchering or just wanting to learn more about. Having a plan before hand does 2 things:

First, it makes it easier when asking her for coffee. i.e. "I'm heading to Borders to read up on (fill in the blank, even better if it's a subject you know she is interested in) would you like to join me? Their mocha lattes are awsome!

And second, if she for some reason turns you down or is busy, you already had plans to do the research so you're not looking at wondering what you'll do now that the answer wasn't what you expected.

But hey Fred, I have faith in ya. You'll both be drinking latte's and reading up on the new and best 10K traing program for couples.

Lookin4Serenity: I like it!!!

Thanks for the idea. It sure makes it less artificial to do it that way.

Now, I just hope she shows up at church this Sunday...

No excuses Fred. If you haven't asked her out by Monday, I'm going to ask you out.
Opt

Fred, the anticipation is what's kills you I think. Just... pull the trigger. You'll feel better either way because she'll either say yes and you'll be happy or she'll say no and you'll know you tried. It's the not knowing that sucks... kwim? It's hard but just.... say the words!

Travis

Looking4Serenity has a great idea, I never thought of it like that before! Good point!

And good luck, Fred!

Er, ask me out, or call me out???

Fred, seriously, you can so do this. I am counting on you. And while I don't necessarily disagree with my female colleagues above I think TC has it right, ya just have to go for it.
Fred you are a desirable man. You're attractive in so many ways- obviously as a runner you take good care of yourself, you're a responsible wage earner, you're self-sufficient and comfortable with your personal interests (i.e. not "needy"), obviously intelligent and well-rounded. What woman wouldn't want to spend some time with you?

Here's another philosophy I have: as much as you've thought of what you'll say, she's probably imagined it in her mind and already has some sort of response prepared. Sure, it will boil down to "yes" or "no" but her mind is probably already made up. Translation: how you ask is completely immaterial. You could make a complete idiot of yourself (lol, I told you it's not fatal) and it won't make much a difference. But the words won't escape your mouth by accident.
-------Female Colleagues: what say you?----------

You like her right? So tell her. She'll be flattered for sure.

opt

You know what Opt, I really like what you said here; it's such a good outlook. You've already represented yourself, all you're "asking" for is to find out the result: yes or no. It's got a tinge of fatalism that takes the scary away a bit.

Yeah, I'm gonna go with the guys' suggestions here. I think it's time to just ask her out, plain and simple. Nothing big, just a coffee or a dinner...

But I would not keep trying to conveniently end up in the same places as she does (church, Border's, etc) - it sends unclear messages, IMO. Like do you really want to see HER, or do you want to see BORDER'S with her, ya know?

Just do it.

AGG

Sigh. The one thing I hadn't considered -- she didn't show up at church today.

I guess God doesn't want the Christmas holiday to be overshadowed by earthly pursuits...

What's earthly about going on a date with someone you find intriguing? We're spiritual beings trapped in a material world Fred.

Do you know anyone who knows her? Get her number and call her up.



Opt

Agreed!

Trust me guys, if I knew anyone who knew her, I'd do just as you suggest.

However, I have a "plan b" (lower case, so as to not confuse readers with the MB Plan B). You folks have encouraged me enough so that tomorrow I'm going to ask another woman to a Christmas Eve brunch to which I've been invited. That is, if she's at the meeting I'm going to...

Merry almost Christmas Fred !

Hope you tracked her down and asked her out!

I have a date.



!

Way to go FRED!

Thank you, Pepperband. And the same to you and yours.

I see you are back on SAA, reviving the "gems." Your service is truly admirable.

Which woman?

Good for you!~

Thanks, SW. This is woman #2. Or #1, depending on how you look at it. She's NOT the woman I sat with in church, if that helps.

Thanks to all of you for giving me the strength and courage. This woman was at the meeting I've been leading. As we were ending the meeting, I asked her if I could speak with her before she left. After the post-meeting chatter died down I simply said to her, "I know it's late notice, but if you're free Friday morning, I'd like to take you to a Christmas Eve brunch." At first she was a bit surprised. "Friday?"

"It's Christmas Eve," I repeated.

She asked about where and when, and then said, "It sounds like it could be fun. I'm not doing much this holiday." I got her phone number and address and told her I'd call to confirm and I'd pick her up Friday morning.

I'm thinking I should give her a small Christmas gift when I pick her up. Do you concur? Maybe a poinsettia or something?

No, you are practicing meeting and talking with women, you are not DATING a woman yet. Have a relationship with the woman, then a gift.

If you want a couple of ideal books to understand how to introduce yourself to women, then order and read the following books:

The Pickup Artist by Mystery
Rules of the Game by Neil Strauss.

Both books will give you the secrets to PRACTICE approaching women. And both are professional PUA coaches, that's how they make their living. And I have read their books, and the second contains a day by day training course, which I m using at the moment to overcome my in experience, and from my psychology readings, they are all on the right path.

Well done Fred! Keep us posted.

Awww, Fred! I am beaming for you!! You must be so excited. You'll have fun for sure. This is a great Christmas present! Have fun and just be yourself. I'm so happy.

Opt

Can't wait to hear how it goes.

Just before my dh met me he had attempted to get together with a woman he met through friends. He called her twice and she was always busy...or didn't return his call. As soon as she heard he was dating me she immediately reached out and answered one of his calls...but it was too late. I often think about her and how close I came to never even meeting my dh. He certainly would not have even agreed to meet me if he had been seeing her.

Things work out wonderfully sometimes.

p.s. not saying this woman is 'the one'....but you never know!

Not so much.
Just a little.
Now and then.

Dad died Sept.
I've been ill.

Minding my own business, mostly.

I am sorry to learn of your dad's passing. I hope both you and he have found peace in this. And I hope you are recovering from your illness.

Your wit, wisdom and "decorative" postings are one of this board's strongest and most compelling features.

It's been a humble season for me.

And, that's a good thing.
Humility shakes off the chaff.

Don't waste time Fred.
It's precious.

As I said, your wisdom is highly valued here, P. Thank you.

And Merry Christmas to you, again!

I haven't had time to be on line this week, so I feel a little behind...
Good luck Fred and congrats! I hope you have fun!

And Pepperband, sorry to hear your news.

My date is tomorrow. I told her I'd pick her up at 10:30 a.m. for the brunch at 11:00. I also said I'd call her when I left my home to let her know I was on the way.

Should I call her today to confirm the date? I had thought to do so and to make sure I knew how to get to her place.

Or should I wait and call her in the morning, as planned?

I didn't wait. I called her. And it we had a very nice, brief chat, and we're still on for tomorrow!

I'm as jittery as a pimple-faced pre-teen going on his first date!

Lol, good luck Fred, you'll do great!

Travis

OK, is anyone interested in reading a recap? Keep reading if the answer is "yes."

We had a great time. We both dressed appropriately: me in slacks, sports coat and sweater, she in a sweater, mid-length skirt and boots. The brunch was held at an upscale country club. The morning was bright, clear and chilly. Our table of 15 was next to a floor-to-ceiling window that looked onto the golf course. The buffet was sumptuous and delicious!

My date knew several of the people, which I think helped put her more at ease, and we had a group photo taken when we were done.

I enjoyed her company and she said she had a great time. She gave me a hug as I dropped her off. We discovered some shared interests (she loves to cook, runs, is tech savvy, and likes to travel) and we now have an open-ended next date! I suggested we do a "date night" at the cooking class school I've been to. She agreed, and we'll find one evening when the menu looks like something challenging and interesting to us both.

I had given her a gift of a mug packed with a deluxe hot cocoa mix when I arrived. She opened it when we returned and seemed to truly appreciate it.

She is planning a trip to New York City Sunday, just to shop and take in a show or two. This fits in with my observation that she has a life filled with interests and activities and isn't desperate for a relationship. This is a good thing, I think, since it means that I need not pursue a relationship, but can simply get to know her better on both of our terms. And time frames.

Bottom line: I had a good time. I was on my best behavior, but I didn't feel like I had to put on pretense. I enjoyed speaking with her (and nearly missed two turns on the drive home because we were chatting) and I think she enjoyed it, too.

So, we'll go out together again. When, is still to be determined. But that's good, because it lessens the pressure on both of us.

It was fun and satisfying.

Fred! You Rock!

Merry Christmas!

See - you still got it!

Awesome! I love it!

Fred, it's Christmas eve but I had to take a minute and say how happy I am for you and your first date. No doubt she felt very lucky to be out with such a gentleman. So glad you got past the first step of actually asking! It was worth all the nerves, lol.
You must be so happy. And she sounds like a real nice woman.

Have a great Christmas Fred!

Opt

In my mind the big thing on the first date is to simply be yourself. There is no point in fooling somebody into getting a 2nd date. The person will soon discover one's true nature and the end will be near. It is just a waste of time for everybody involved.

Being a phony on the first date is like posting innaccurate photos on an online dating site. The first thing the other person notices is that one is older, not as handsome, more wrinkles, more grey hair, etc. That impression is impossible to overcome. At least I have a hard time seeing past this initial deception

I guess if one's personality is such that one does not want to be real on the first date it is time for some therapy and selfl-improvement classes.

I'm envious of you Fred. I'm not at the point where I should or even want to date but I am looking forward to the time I will be ready. Word of caution....don't be surprised if X starts to attempt to communicate if she finds out you're seing some one.

I've heard this is a very real possibility, so I'm alert for it.

WxW has been 100% dark since before the divorce. And that's the way I like it. And if she tries, I just have to remember my DD's words:


Between my DD and WxW, I'll take my daughter any day of the week and twice on Sunday!


On the plus side, it would be a good opportunity to remind her that she still legally owes me almost $5,000, and that I would like my money, please...

LOL, thanks for that Fred! I was due for a laugh.

Hope all's well. Did you make a second date yet?

Opt

We have agreed to have a second date. We haven't set the actual time, yet.

I looked over the web site of the cooking school and all the "date night" classes in January are already filled.

However, a new opportunity has appeared: A friend of mine celebrates his sobriety anniversary every year by hosting a potluck supper + gathering at his home. My invitation arrived in the mail today. This is truly a wonderful time had by all, so I was thinking of inviting her. I have left a message with my friend asking if it's OK to bring a guest. I'm sure he'll say it's no problem, but I want to clear it with him first.

I confess I'm anxious for his reply, as I want to ask her at the earliest possible time. The gathering isn't until January 15, but I'd like to get it on her calendar before she decides on something else to do that night.

January 15th!!?
What about this weekend? lol. Take her to a museum. She'll love it!

Opt

Do this! After all, why wait unless it's exceeding your comfort level?

Travis

Thanks for your vote of confidence, opt.

But I've been worried about being too "pushy." She seems to have a very active life. Or maybe she's just put it out there to indicate that she's not a "pushover?"

I have thought the best approach was to have a plan -- an event or occasion -- in mind, rather than just something vague...

But now that you've brought it up, there IS an art exhibit I'd like to see that ends on Sunday. I guess it's time to pick up the phone this evening and ask.

Thanks!

I haven't posted to you for awhile, Fred, but I've been following you - sounds like things are going great!

And as far as the exhibit? Go for it! Pick up that phone! Museum, and then out for a yummy dinner somewhere...nice!

LOL! I did as you ordered... er, suggested, and called her. Just got her VM, so I left a message. And my phone number. I guess the shoe is on her foot now, and I just have to hold my water waiting for a reply...

No, it's okay to say 'ordered'.

Hang in there and you'll get your call! And then, a little 'cultcha' and a little oh, maybe pasta... What great fun!

Well, I'm noooooooo expert Fred, but I think you did the right thing. I think she'll appreciate you being up front with her. IOW, you wanted to see her again, so you asked her out again. End of story. It's a good, honest approach.

I have a feeling you'll hear back from her in 24 hours or less. And, if not, or if you don't get a positive response you probably feel like I've heard a couple other guys (and myself) say: after what we've been through, a little rejection from someone we hardly know aint nothin'.

Opt

Amen on that, bro!

She called back, but unfortunately I was out when she did. She did leave a message, however.

The bad: She's actually got the day off tomorrow, and is going to the exhibit to which I invited her. She did not offer to postpone her trip, but I have no reason to expect her to. At least it shows my idea was a good one!

The good: She left the door open to doing "something else" sometime. AND suggested we keep our eyes on the cooking class for open seats to one we're both interested. She also acknowledged that I left my phone numbers & email "so now we both have each others'." She said she would email me so that I would have her email address, too.

Based on this, she's willing to go out with me again. She's not falling over at the prospect, which has the effect of keeping me on my toes, wondering if she's just humoring me, or if she's just being cautious and taking things slow.

For my part, I don't want to appear anxious, aggressive, needy or desperate. Finding the proper balance is my challenge. I've never been very good at balance...

No, she's probably dated more than you and knows how it goes, so she isn't getting as worked up as you are. That's okay, you're new to this, you like her, and you're excited. That's all good.


I still say just being honest is the all balance you need. She knows you're new to dating right? She'll understand if you're a little anxious, I bet. She'll probably be flattered. That first woman I went out with-- I just kept saying "I have no idea what I'm doing." (lol) I made my inexperience work to my advantage and was basically honest. She thought it was cute and it relaxed us both. No harm in admitting if you're not sure how something works, right?

You're doing great! I'm glad she called back.

Opt

Wow, I've missed so much in my week off line (I've been busy shoveling snow...). Fred, congratulations! I don't think an "every other week" thing is pushy or overwhelming, and still keeps her actively thinking of you.

I hope she gets back to you and you have a great time together again!

I would say "enthusiastic" (not pushy) is the way to go.
Happy New Year FRED !

that is the key, which is takes time and experience to master. so that is why getting out and meeting people, randomly or otherwise, is what the doctor orders.

even if nothing perpetual comes from it. .

wiftty

NEW YEAR'S DAY UPDATE:

Got up this morning after going to sleep at 11:30 p.m. -- no, I had no New Year's Eve plans; I ran a 10K at 3:30 in the afternoon and another 5K planned for 10:00 a.m. this morning (yes, I'm probably certifiably nuts) -- and checked my email. What do you know? A Happy New Year message from her in my inbox!

She told me of her experience at the art exhibit, made a recommendation or two, and then said, "We'll find something to do together soon." I took this as my opportunity to invite her to my friend's party+anniversary on the 15th. Even if we don't wind up going, I'd say the door is certainly open for another date!

Way cool, Fred!

I asked woman #2 out today. Pardon me if this is long; I tend to get windy.

I was asked by one of the elders at church today to assist with communion. As I was carrying the glass of grape juice to the communion station, I noticed #2 sitting at the end of a row. She gave me a smile and a small wave. I smiled back.

She was the first in line at communion. After service, I asked her if she wanted to go see the art exhibit (I've mentioned this exhibit before). "Today?" She asked. "Right now?"

She had to decline, but she told me two important things. Her response was, "I have a commitment to a singles group this afternoon." In doing so, my take-away was that (1) she's single, and (2) if she hadn't made a commitment that others were relying on her, she might have given it more thought.

I left the door open for something another time.

My mistakes: I didn't ask for her phone number. I didn't commit to anything specific in the future.

But I wasn't rejected, either. The book from which I took this thread's subject says that "guys ask, women don't." So I'm deciding to participate in my own life.

I'm learning.

but you will see her again at church. That is different than a random person who you might never see again, which is on what alot of the books focus.

As long as you are open, meeting people, and finding activities to do together, eventually you will be gun ho at participating in your own life.

www.meetup.com and search for interesting activities in your area.

as long as you are meking a sincere and purposeful effort, you eill eventually get rewarded. keep it up.

wiftty

Fred,

I have this vision of the scene from Sheepless in Seattle with Tom Hanks , when the back ground music of " Back in the saddle again " starts.

That's totally you now, some where on your thread just a month or so ago you were questioning ever being able to ask a woman out again.

I have to say I'm enjoying every minute of your drama,

I think Shakespeare might have penned my life as a "tragi-comedy."

And this is one of the most important lessons in dating - confidence gets results, and results get more confidence and more results!

For most newly divorced, the idea of asking someone out on a date is awkward, after years of no practice. And that awkwardness shows. But, get a date or two under your belt, realize that the opposite sex is as interested in you as you are in them, get that confidence back, and the dates will just come pouring in.

Gotta love it.

AGG

It's neat to see your confidence develop. It will get you results!

Confidence levels must be directly proportional to energy levels.

I have felt very lackluster today. I even napped twice (I don't usually nap)! I decided to pass on going to the meeting woman #1 attends (I'm no longer leading the discussion series) today. I had hoped she would respond to my email invitation but there's nothing from her so far. Maybe she has been waiting to talk with me face to face, but I don't feel up to it today.

I may send her another email later this evening. Right now I'm just letting my own thoughts get the better of me. I think I'll just have a light dinner and spend some time in front of the TV. The NFL regular season is over, so there's no football on tonight...

lol, do you inversely proportional?

I just wanted to let you know I think it's great how you asked out the second lady at church. It's romantic.
A friend of mine was talking with a 95 year old lady recently who told her "love can blossom at any age" - I thought that was beautiful. This person's grandma fell in love with her first love again after her husband had passed away. She was 80 at the time.

I hope you enjoy the excitement of this part, even with it's potential and actual let downs, dopamine highs and lows.
I hate my divorce for my kids and I'd rather be happily married. And I realize this part will get old too, but it's kinda fun, no? At least, as we've talked about, it beats dealing with an unfaithful recalcitrant spouse.

Opt

Fred, are you okay? You sound like you're coming down sick or maybe a bit depressed or something. (Just don't self-sabotage, you're worth it and deserving of good!)

I wondered myself if I might not have caught a bug. I went out for a run today and am feeling much better.

I called and left a message for #1 just moments before I logged on to MB. So I guess I'm feeling okay.

Two things that I have to remind myself of:

• My timetable is only one of three: God and women have their own.
• It's entirely possible that #1 (and #2) either don't find me an irresistible catch and/or they are content taking it very slow to see how things progress.

I am aware that impatience is a serious character defect, and that I have to take things as they come, and not try to force everything.

Thank you for your concern and encouragement, KC.

Hmmm. No answer to either my email or phone call. Perhaps I should get prepared to be rejected. Or maybe I'm just too impatient.

In any event, I think I'll leave the next move up to her. There's a chance we'll be at the same meeting on Friday. If I don't hear from her before then I'll just be casual and friendly with her the next time I see her.

Hey Fred,

I'm not really one to be giving dating advice, but will anyway so take it for what it's worth.

As confident and self-assured as they appear, I can assure you that these women are just as insecure as we are. They have the same thoughts going through their minds, "Is he going to ask me out, I've been giving obvious hints?", "When will he call again, it's been two days since we went out?", "why hasn't he asked me out again, didn't he like me?"

I can understand the hesitation for asking someone out the first time, that can be pretty daunting. But, if you both had a good time and want to follow it up, then you need to be a little more attentive.

I think you've given woman #1 mixed signals at best. 1) It doesn't seem like you called her or talked to her days in a row following your date, 2) You said you wanted to go out again, but didn't make a firm committment and left it open ended. Kind of sends the signal that you're not really into it. 3) Thinking about setting your next date for Jan. 15, Really? that's three weeks away!

Here are some tips we can all find helpful.

- First, always get their CELL number. No one answers their home phone anymore. Plus, you can always send short little text messages that show you are thinking about them without the nervousness of a full blown phone conversation. Much more comfortable.

- When you ask someone out, either on a first or follow-up date, and they say yes, keep pressing forward right then until you have a firm day and time. Nothing says I'm not really that interested like asking them out, then saying I'll get back to you later to plan something.

- For us shy types this is hard, but if there is a genuine interest then you won't scare them away by contacting them too much, as much as it may seem "pushy". Woman want to be pursued, they want to feel special, want to know you are thinking of them. If you've gone on at least one date and both are enthusiastic about more, then there should be nearly daily contact.

Hey schtoop, thanks for the advice. A lot of good thoughts there.

I've also been following your tale, and you seem to have progressed a lot farther than I in much shorter time! Good for you. And good for your kids!

In the "watched pot never boils" department, I just came home from having my hair cut and found an email from #1! She has accepted my invitation to the party on the 15th and added some other commentary. Her last words were, "I'll be home tonight, probably on the treadmill."

That sounds like an invitation to call to me!

Now you're getting it!

We spent about an hour on the phone this evening, talking about the museum exhibit, places we've traveled (and would like to travel) to, foods we like, music and bands we've seen, job futures and more. The longer we talked the easier it seemed to get.

We're on for the 15th. She may also show up this Friday at a friend's anniversary celebration...

So you know you need a plan for Friday

She shows, you have fun , so take her out for desert after the party, or something better.

Oh yeah one other thing when you go for a run with her don't run her in the ground !!!

Thank you for your comment.......

Sorry, I haven't been on line the last couple of days...computer problems which I've finally resolved.

red, it sounds like it's going well and you're starting to get it! Yes, women drop hints (like "I'm going to be home tonight, probably on the treadmill") it was a definite invitation to call. No one can just come right out and say "call me", they have to drop hints and leave it to the other one to decide if they WANT to, so when they DON'T, it's taken as "not interested". Ahh if only we could come out and say what's on our mind, but we can't we'd spook each other off if we did that! Ha!

I'm glad you're feeling better...

Stillcommitted said

It will be a bit late when the event is over.

However, I came across a discount coupon for one of the last nights of a local "festival of lights" show. I plan to ask her if she'd like to check it out...

There you go Fred, back in the saddle again!!!!!!

She declined. Not unexpected, as I said, it was pretty late.

However, I did learn another pertinent fact: She's not a spontaneous person, and prefers to plan ahead. We're on for the 15th, and I told her I'd call to make plans. She's going to make a Waldorf Salad. I'll probably make barbecue meat balls...

That sounds great! I'm not very spontaneous either, I used to say if it wasn't on my calendar for two weeks, it's not happening! My late husband was though and that was one of the things I appreciated about him. If you're a "planner", you can tend to work your life away...it's nice to have someone who helps you stop and smell the roses, I learned to appreciate his spontaneity.

A brief update:

She left before we could talk yesterday, but wrote me an email that I got this evening. After I got home tonight, in the beginning of a snow storm, I screwed up my courage and called.

Wow. We spent over an hour on the phone, and it actually seemed to get easier as time went on. At one point I got the sense that she's been through some difficult relationship problems, and that she too, is taking things very cautiously. But we're getting to know each other bit by bit. I like the person I'm getting to know.

We're on for Saturday. I probably won't call her before then. But she said she's usually much better at email than she's been the past few days, so maybe I'll drop her a note between now and the weekend, just to "let her know I've been thinking of her" (not necessarily in those words).

OK, I'm going to ask this question in my own thread rather than start another, but in a way I think it's almost deserving of its own topic.

In a nutshell, is it "fair," "right" or "honorable" to use MB principles while dating?

I was re-reading Dr. Harley's article on the Most Important Emotional Needs and suddenly a thought came to me:

When dating -- especially in during the early stages -- should one try to identify one's date's most important EN, and then attempt to meet them?

There is a part of me that thinks identifying a date's EN helps determine if that date is compatible, in that if one isn't capable of meeting those specific ENs, this is not going to be a good "match."

On the other hand, it seems that one could use this in a manipulative way -- filling a date's Love Bank could influence how that person feels about you, and if you don't feel the same, it could wind up in hurt feelings and heartache.

For those coming in late to this thread, I am in the very early stages of dating. This is the "getting to know you" stage. Being aware of Dr. H's Ten Top ENs though, I think could give me an "unfair advantage" in how things move forward.

Agree or disagree? Discussion, anyone?

I think EN's absolutely should be identified as soon as possible in a relationship, and they should be met. (A person's choice to engage in SF before M is a personal choice that I won't get into.) What better time to determine your compatibility?

I think it's manipulative only if you're planning to 'hook' someone by meeting their needs during dating in order to get married, then you don't bother once the ring is on. Sadly, I think a lot of people unintentionally do that very thing when they're dating.

Fred, I'm new here, but I have read most of your main thread about the end of your marriage. I agree with maritalbliss, that it's only manipulative if you're doing it in order to manipulate.

After a marriage with a BPD, you are probably overly sensitive to anything that smacks of manipulation because that's how you XWW hooked you. She lied about herself in an effort to meet your ENs. She took up YOUR hobbies and pretended to like things that you like because women like that are chameleons.

While I don't think it's wrong to try to identify someone else's needs, you also need to be sure that you're not misrepresenting who you are while you seek to fulfill the other person's ENs.

Of course, I haven't been on a date with anyone other than my stbxh since 1983, so I'm not an expert.

Fred, lets assume it takes 3 months to begin to know someone well enough to decide if you want to have an exclusive relationship. At that time, when you become exclusive, then you can begin to work the emotional needs.

But until then, you can be throwing oxygen on a smoldering flame and then when the oxygen is removed, it goes back to smoldering, and its not a hot relationship anymore.

I appreciate everyone's responses so far. I guess what I'm trying to do is achieve some level of balance. As some of you know, I've been "off balance" for a while -- partly thrown that way by WxW, and partly because I so lack experience in being "in balance" anyway.

Case in point: I wrote an email to woman #1 last night. I listed some upcoming cooking classes, including dates, menus, etc. She had sent me dates that she was going to dancing class and would be unavailable, so I sent only "free" dates based on her info.

Striking a tone between being friendly but not overly so, and being matter-of-fact about the cooking class dates was extremely difficult for me. I did say something about looking forward to spending time with her, but "being balanced" just did not feel like it came naturally.

You folks not only helped me get through the difficulties of dealing with my BPD WxW, but now you've become my dating coaches. You know that, don't you?

Yeah, we know.

Fred, you once again have brought up an interesting topic of discussion and I certainly have some thoughts on it I'd like to share when I get a minute, but first, to the above quote:
I still would rely on total and utter honesty. I have been on dates with a few different women since the D was final and had success with it. With each I have just come out and said things like "if I get too eager to talk to you or if I'm bugging you I trust that you'll let me know - please keep in mind that I'm new to this whole dating thing and really have no idea what I'm doing." The positive responses have been in the realm of "just be honest with me and say what's on your mind." I get the impression most (some) women would rather date an honest, sincere (if anxious) bumbling idiot, than a slick, smooth, professional serial dater/player.

Also the upfront honesty thing lets you see how she'll react to you once she really gets to know you anyway. If she don't like it, she ain't for you. No harm no foul.

And let's face it - nothing's really going to "come naturally" when you haven't had any practice. right?

Anyway, hope I'm not pointing out the obvious here; I think you're doing fine. I just think it's okay to let her know you're not sure about the dating process - - it doesn't demonstrate a lack of self-confidence, just a lack of experience with something you really shouldn't have a lot of experience with anyway at this stage, having just D'd. kwim?

Opt

--I still have some thoughts on your topic of discussion "using MB/emotional needs in dating".... tbc

Thanks, opt.

Maybe you're pointing out the obvious (I'd like to think you're pointing out the "proper") but so what? It's what confirms my own thoughts, worries not withstanding.

There have been times when I *have* been honest and upfront about my supposed awkwardness. She knows my WxW -- not well, but they've met -- and I've skirted around the topic of the breakup. But she knows the major details, since I've shared that in meetings, so it's not like she's oblivious. I just don't think talking about my last relationship in depth is a good move now.

But to your main point, I think I've been completely honest in the things I've said and done with her. Even when it takes me out of my "comfort zone." As you said, her responses to my honesty are the best determinant to whether I want to continue seeing her. And she me, I'd say.

Great Fred, glad things are progressing then. I would definitely leave any talk of Leapord off the list of things to talk about. If she brings it up just answer and change the subject to demonstrate that it has no bearing on anything related to you and your date.

So I�ve been thinking a lot about the concept of bringing knowledge of MB principles to the dating world and I believe it is not only unavoidable, but perhaps even essential. Unavoidable in that it�s something we�ve all learned and studied (avoiding LB�ers and identifying/meeting the most important EN�s for instance). But also completely okay to utilize � IF we�re looking for LTR�s (which I think is the case for most of us here � I ain�t no player that�s for sure).

Dr. Harley says he can help ANY two people create a loving marriage by teaching them to meet each other�s most important emotional needs and thereby keeping them �in love� with each other (or keeping their LB balances above the romantic threshold). So, to me, the easiest way to have someone be in love with you is to find out what their EN�s are and meet them. If the persons most important EN�s are �easy� for you to meet (for instance if FS is one and you happen to be inexhaustibly rich) �then you�re in luck. So, during dating I believe there should be a process of identifying the needs and then evaluating what your ability is to meet them. IOW, you are USING your knowledge of MB principles to predict the chances of success for a potential relationship.

As someone else said, if you have no intention of going LT with a person and you use the above ideas to gain some sort of advantage insincerely over the person, then that is not right. I would expect this road leads to regret for both involved.

Of course from your side of it, you are constantly looking to your �date� for her potential to meet your most important EN�s. If one is FS and she�s dirt poor, probably not a good match. Or if one is DS and she�s a total slob, that�s a good sign things might not work. I had a vague sense from the beginning with my ex that she would EVENTUALLY become someone that would meet my need for SF; never happened and always was an issue � and we all know where that lead to. In retrospect she might have felt the same way about my ability to satisfy her need for FS, but once the kids came, my income level (and aspirations to excel in that area) leveled off.

Those are some of my thoughts on using MB principles during the dating phase of a relationship.
Maybe others with agree/disagree or add/subtract.

Opt

ITA, opt.

The only bearing The Leopard has on my dating this woman is that her absence allows me to date in the first place.

Only twice has she popped up in the course of conversation, and then only peripherally. The first was when we were speaking of the lack of loyalty these days and I made a passing comment about "in relationships, too." The second was when we were talking about pets and I made mention that my cat was "leftover."

Other than that, neither of us has said much of anything about previous relationships. We're both old enough to know that we've both had them, and that they have no bearing on our dating (children, etc.). Or at least that they shouldn't.

I think you're way ahead of the other guys in the dating scene because of your thorough knowledge of MB.

Some lucky lady is going to get a real catch...

Okay coaches, here comes the next n00bie question. #1 (I don't know how else to refer to her; abbreviations abound here, but there isn't one for "date candidate number X" that I can find) had our second date this weekend. We went to a mutual friend's combined anniversary/birthday party and potluck.

We had a good time, but didn't really get to spend much time with each other.

So...

The week before I emailed her twice and called her once. Each communication had a purpose; the emails were to present some options for the "cooking class" date and the phone call to confirm the time I would pick her up, etc.

I spoke with her briefly in person this evening, and she acknowledged receiving my emails (I had sent her photos taken during our first date). I'm a little bothered that she didn't reply to the emails, which leads me to my question (see subject line):

Ladies, if a man is interested in you, how often should he try to contact you so that you know his interest is there without becoming a pest? (Guys, you can weigh in, too).

Email seems less intrusive, as one can read and reply when the mood and time fit. A phone call is more personal, of course.

Sigh. It's all about balance. I've struggled for decades with balance.

I was flipping through the lastest topic screen, and saw Freds post, so I wanted to see how he was doing, and read about 4 pages of this thread.

I have been built up and inspired from what I have read from everyone. Life does go on. Everything said is such good advice from great people. Good friends with the right encouragement.

I'm not ready for dating, and the key for me will be not to look to hard, or worry about it. Being over 50 also, and learning to take care of myself better, along with the realization that now that the drama has receded, I am enjoying my life more, and thats enough for me right now.

I do though believe some day in the future,(No timetable), I might find another relationship appealing. Hearing everyones storys, thier concerns, thier hopes and fears, and recognizing them as being in myself also at times, has made me feel so much more normal, and that I am not so different after all.

Fred highlighted something once I said in a post, "If you want to be healthy, hang around healthy people" , Boldly and said it should be a sign.

Thanks for this thread, and thanks for being so normal guys, and healthy too.

Ask her Fred, Thats a perfectly normal question and very different for most women also. I would politely ask her, and thats the etiquette I would honor..I can tell you this simple truth.

You don't have anything to be afraid of, you can work out any details after you ask, you are a smart, sensitive, man that can handle it.

Ok no more dating advice from me lol. Good luck Guys, Thanks again for this thread...

Duh...

See? That's why I come here and ask you folks. I'm like a prepubescent teenager at times.

Now, how to frame the question...

Actually, we may be having a date this Saturday. She offered to volunteer at a dance but hasn't been notified that she's been selected. If not, we're going to go out. And this time we'll have plenty of "alone together" time.

That gives me at least five days to think of a way to ask. And maybe more...

Fred,

join the club,
each woman is unique and different.

I have had chatty woman and one liners. my latest date is a one liner. the prior date was a bit chattier but after a certain period, only responded, didn't initiate. seldom responded to text messages. . .

so i took that as a not as interested, keep looking. .. she hasn't responded in a month to my last email. i take that as a not that into me. . .

so, i just keep fishing, being OUTCOME independent. . . that is the key. . outcome independent. . .

wiftty

Fred, I've been following along but limited in time and my home computer's busted but I wanted to ask you something about the above discussion.
There seems to be some concern for the counterpart's feelings, but what about yours? If you are someone that likes to be in contact with a person you're interested in quite frequently, then is it legit to say "this one won't do it for me in terms of my need for regular communication"? I realize in the opening stages of dating someone you might not really get a good picture
of what that might be, but you get some idea most likely.
Just thinking we (definitely including myself) tend to try to please and maybe forget ourselves...

just a thought
Opt

I'm not sure there's a one-size-fits-all answer. Each person might have a different answer. Me? I would probably respond to each email a guy sent me that I was interested in. However, other things might affect that...how busy I was at the time, how many emails he sent, etc. I wouldn't want bombarded with email. And it depends upon how far into the relationship you are. If you just met or went out once, maybe 2-3 times a week...I wouldn't want to move too fast. If you've known each other a while, it could be a bit more, but I don't think I'd want a daily barrage where it felt like a "have to respond". The point is to pique her interest but not feel like a pest. And a lot depends upon how short/long the emails are and how interesting. I'd say keep them short.

Im just sharing some thoughts about this statement, take what works for you Fred.

Reminds me of nature, sorry I am not trying to minimize Man or Womans Character, but at the beginning stages I think of a male bird creating an atmosphere, being colorful, to attract a female. Yeah we extend ourselves sometimes to what we belive we want to be for a woman, even what we should be we feel, and even in that there are good positive character building efforts at self-improvment. But we just gotta be honest, can we really provide what they are asking?, are we ready, and is what they are desiring what we want also. I believe that women look for atmosphere in a relationship, and that it is a natural drive. Us guys internallly know this, and want to support them in thier dreams also, hoping they line up with ours, and we also see thier heart as close to the same. But it is so important that we are representing the right impression of who we are, and it takes that confidance in ourselves to do that, and then she chooses us.

Having that confidance and stability in who we are and what we want, is all we can bring, and it is attractive to those who want the same, and also fosters respect and confidance under who's protection a woman is willing to trust herself to.

Remember the conversation on one of my threads with Kay, Greengables, and you when I was asking about future relationships? The topic of confidance came up. Also When I asked about wondering if and when I was ready, you had a point that really struck home with me. You said If I didn't feel ready, I wasn't. Thanks for that, it was releasing. Brought me out of the mindset I had something to prove at this stage of my life. I'm not ready, and thats realistic, and my confidance will not be genuine until I am.

But responding really to the statement above, us men can sometimes rush our need for companionship and stress ourselves out before we have the confidance to move forward, and of course confidance comes from inside, but also from support from people we trust, and thinking things through in a calm rational way with those people. We are not an island unto ourselves, and friendship is the most valuable part of our relationship with the other sex IMO. What the question is to me, do you think you can be a good freind? If you know you can be, and have confidance in that, you have the relationship game down. There really is nothing to fear. Now its just working on the communication and sharing of dreams and goals, with honesty and sincerity, and not overextending yourself.

Its hard being on that stage, because we all need relationships and friends. If you are treating yourself and being your own good friend, I see no reason why you can't do the same for anybody else. Just stay true to yourself, and trust yourself, and in that of course, trusting God first. Your an awesome guy Fred IMO, and have been through the wringer.

When I picked up my BPD wife from the state she was living in after she has stopped drinking, (it took 6 mos and rock bottom first), and I was moving her back to the town where I lived, not to be with her but because she had burned out all her help and I had to help because her home town was full of triggers, she said, "I have been talking to Pastor and he said to me, "Just be his freind right now". Funny that was what I allways wanted, never expected more and thought that was what I was to her. It is clear to me that she expected something different than what I was, and also that I was barely ready for a relationship, and might have overextended myself in my desire to heal the past.

Its funny, when I met second wife, I had allready planned my future out and a seriuos relationship was not even considered because I knew I wasn't ready. She chased me and convinced me it would be different, also portraying herself in a way she hoped she could be, and aspired to, but neither of us were ready. I bought it too, because I wanted to share in the heady dreams we both had, and took on the challange.

Thats not your story Fred, but the statement above really struck home with me. Us guys are naturally driven to lead, and take control of circumstances and atmophere that makes for security in our relationships, and take on the challanges that life throws at us as they come. Reminds me of that line in the serenity prayer, "and the wisdom to know the difference".

Opt, KayC and CP, thank you for your well-considered responses. Rather than reply to each separately, I'll combine my response into one, and let you each pick out the portions that apply.

First, opt, I was thinking much along the lines you spoke of just today. Is Candidate#1 (C1) meeting my EN? Honestly, I don't know. Your comments made me think more on this, and I'll say more below. This also addresses KayC's comment, I think.

CP, you've struck a nerve with your comments, too. Confidence is something I feel like I've always lacked when it comes to interacting with women I feel attracted to. I've not had a problem with women in general, but I think I'm afraid that I can be pushed away easily if I don't somehow live up to such a woman's expectations. Combine this with the fecalstorm I went through this past year, dating a woman I'm attracted to has become another learning experience from the ground up.

In my first post on this thread, I mentioned the book that gave this thread its name. Chapter 4 of this book is called, The Art of Communication. Without going into great detail, there are several pages dedicated to common-sense items, but then they come to some areas that are "fuzzy" to me.

There is a sub-section called The Art of Mystery. In brief, this instructs the woman that the man is the "chaser," and that the woman should be chased. Here is one of the short suggestions:

There is more, of course, but we've already spent an hour on the phone - and it didn't feel to me like a marathon!

The answer they don't give is "how often?" They talk about how long (increasing duration the longer the relationship progresses) and make a passing comment

So... how much "more often" is too often?

To wrap up: We went out Saturday to a friend's party. Not a lot of "together time" but we did sit together and chatted periodically. I saw her again Monday and she said she was still not sure if next Saturday was open. Today is Wednesday, and I think I'll give her a call this evening.

Too little?

I would call when ever I had time and felt like it, and the first thing outta my mouth would be, "do you have time to talk?", letting them know I just wanted to spend time with them, and was perfecly fine if they didn't have it.

So that would be my answer to too often.

Great minds think alike, CP.

Every time I've called her so far, I've always asked her "is this a good time?"

I called her this evening, but only got her voice mail. I don't expect a return call, so I'll call again tomorrow (voice mail doesn't count as a call in my book).

I have a suggestion. You could use some of your conversation time with your dates asking these kinds of questions. You could ask questions like, "So, (her name), what's the longest you've ever talked on the phone? Did your ear hurt? Who did you enjoy talking to on the phone the most and why? How much do you like talking on the phone? Morning talker, or evening talker? (I'd also try to throw in something funny). Etc, etc. Get to know her, find out what her preferences are. Each woman is individual, and what answer you may get from us here, may not be what your date likes. I want a man to know me, so I wouldn't mind answering those questions.

I would try to just be honest, with a humerous and lighthearted attitude when you do. Hopefully they will ask you what you like as well. It'll help you build your confidence in knowing what THEY like.

And remember Fred, you need to determine if they can meet YOUR needs, determine if they are someone YOU like. Not "do they, could they, like me?". If they do, you'll probably know it. In fact, that would make for some good conversation....."How do you know when a girl likes you?.........

It looks like I'll have the chance to find out more this weekend.

A short while ago I received an email from her. She missed my call last night because she did not see the message waiting light until she was preparing for bed.

She says she's we're on for Saturday "if the invitation is still open." I replied to her that it was indeed, open, and that I would call her this evening to work out the arrangements.

Updates as they become available...

I'm excited Fred. I am now living vicariuosly through you in this thread..

Reference to Grease, "Tell me more tell me more, does he have a car?" Lol


Seriuosly though, great news buddy, sounds like its going good.

Thanks, CP.

By the way, the saying in your sig line is attributed to Teilhard de Chardin.

Just tryin' to help out in return.

Thanks, I like a complete bibliography.

Okay, I'm smiling now. See?

She called me. I was out at the time but her message said to call her if it wasn't too late. So I did. We spent about 30 minutes on the phone and I broke off the conversation.

I said that I was not sorry that her volunteer offer hadn't been taken up, that I was looking forward to spending time with her on Saturday.

She also said she was looking forward to some "good food and good company."

It was even her suggestion that I pick her up fifteen minutes before the time I suggested, just to "give us enough time." Nice!

Okay, now just to rein myself in before someone else does, I am just happy that so far I don't seem to have done anything wrong. Saturday is going to be our first "real" date -- just her and me for the evening. This should be the date that reveals whether there's potential for more, or if we are just "friend" material...

Lol, and you are looking for????
Sounds like a winner

Yep!

Brush your teeth, and don't wear your stinking running gear,

Hey Fred, don't get too fixated on doing things "right" or figuring out if this woman is datable. Above everything try and have fun with her, the rest will come. And you will make "mistakes" at some point, just remember to be yourself. Here's to a great weekend!

Travis

WHS (What He Said)

Also, remember, you're trying to find out if she's right for you. Your goal should NOT be turning yourself into what she wants.

This shouldn't be too hard to do, Kirby. After all, I don't know (yet) what she wants.



(That she's seen her way to going on a third date with me is enough for me at this point).

LOL!

Not to worry. I've run 20 miles this week and have no plans to run any more. We're supposed to have bitter cold this weekend, anyway (I ran today in a 14�F wind chill).

She runs, too. But mostly on a treadmill (she says temperatures less than 65� are too cold for her to run outdoors).

Stinky running clothes are NOT part of tomorrow's date!

Fred, have a bunch of fun tomorrow night! I agree with what Travis said above. You have a great sense of humor and I know your date will feel lucky that she's spending time with such a nice, respectful guy.

Enjoy yourself, k? and think about how far you've come in just afew months from being nervous to ask a woman out. You're practically a pro now!

Opt

Fred- I hope you have a great time on your date. Just be yourself and have fun!!

I had to chuckle a little reading your posts re: trying to figure out about calling/her responding, etc. Sounds so familiar- I never dreamed I'd be out in the dating world again and sometimes feel like I'm in High School again trying to figure it all out. You're doing great!

And we expect a full report!

Well, I just got home and it's late, so I don't know how full this is going to be, but I thought I'd pop in here for a moment, at least...

I picked up a nice, cheery bouquet of colorful flowers for her. In our last phone conversation she had expressed a little twinge of Seasonal Affective Disorder (SAD). Not that she's a sufferer, but just that this time of year is a bit dreary. So I gave her the flowers and said "it's hard to feel dreary when you've got something cheery."

We then had dinner at my favorite Mexican restaurant. She ate every bite, and honestly seemed to enjoy it. She offered to split the payment but I would not hear of it.

Then we went to a meeting at the hospital where I used to volunteer. After the meeting I asked her if she felt like dessert and she not only agreed, but even suggested a place.

This restaurant is open 24 hours a day. We had coffee and dessert and talked about a wide range of topics (much like we had done during dinner). This time she insisted on paying. I told her I was going to object, but not strenuously. So she paid.

When I dropped her off it was 11:30. She asked if I wanted to come in, but I knew she was feeling tired and had to walk her dogs, so I thanked her but said I should probably be on my way. We both said we'd had a great time, and even though I didn't ask for another specific date, we have an open-ended agreement to go out again.

All in all, I had a very nice time with her, and I plan to call her tomorrow (today?) to re-affirm this and perhaps set up another date.

So, how did I do?

Been sitting up drumming my fingers,checking my watch, and then I see you made curfew by 37min, so I'm not grounding you this time.


Glad you had a great time.

You get 10 points for the "sweet and corny bravest line of the day" with that one. It takes a lot of courage to deliver that one.


Nah you did great Fred, sounded perfect. Keep us updated

You did a good job!

Thanks for the update.

Very well executed Fred! And the flowers were the perfect touch.

Glad you had a nice night with what sounds like really nice company!

I must admit the differences between this woman and my WxW are profound! This one has a college degree, is disciplined, has a great appetite (but watches her diet and exercises regularly) and has personal interests and friends that she keeps regularly.

There is a very sweet side to her, but she tends to be very quiet and reserved in group/company situations. Getting to know her is turning into a lot of fun!

Wow Fred, she sounds like a pretty good date. She doesn't sound flaky. She offered to carry her weight with the bill. She offered a suggestion for a place to go for dessert. It sounds like she's a good "partner" so far.

What do the two of you have in common?

Yay!

Is she getting to know you too Fred? Does she want to know YOU?

That's a GREAT question, MJ. I think we're getting to know each other as a result of having the time together, just the two of us. Does she WANT to get to know me? That's another one that's a little tougher to answer.

Last night she did ask some questions, and during dessert they were more than just "fluff." How do I feel about this, what is my opinion of that -- that sort of stuff.

This was only our third date. And the first that was nearly all "just us." I am constantly telling myself to take it slow and let things unroll by themselves.

Last night as we parted, she gave me a hug, which was a bit "warmer" than before. I know that some people (like the book I named this thread after) caution against hugging, but I don't usually take them for much more than a handshake equivalent. But last night it just seemed she held tighter and a little longer than what I would consider to be a "normal" hug.

I called her about 30 minutes ago and left a message on her VM. I said that I'd had a great time last night, and that I'd like to take her to a place we talked about. So I've put it out there...

Good. Sounds like by her asking your opinion about something, and wondering how you feel about something, she is trying to get to know you. Just checking.

I love that you called her and told her that you enjoyed your evening together. I like that.

Sounds like things are going nicely. Slow is good.

Have you seen ANY red flags at all?

She likes rhubarb pie.

I prefer cherry or raspberry.



(But in the absence of any rhubarb pie, she had cherry pie last night).

I'm glad you're having a good time with it. If it ceases to be fun, time to move on. It's good that you're taking it slow, getting to know each other. And it sounds like she's a good choice, mentally and physically healthy.

Lol. So far, so good. Nothing major.

Now, in the time being, in between dates, are you living in your present and having fun, without concentrating too much on future dates?

Absolutely! In fact, there is another woman I'm interested in getting to know better. She's the one in church.

She was there today, and we had some brief "flirtation" (smiles, winks) but she left while I was helping pack up. We are currently spending four weeks on Acts 2:41-42 and next Sunday are having a church "pep rally breakfast" in place of the first service. I'm hoping she shows up and I get to ask her to sit with me at my table.

The rest of my life continues as well. I've been doing a lot of running (20 miles last week -- not great, but pretty good for January) and I'm doing a lot of work to get this business re-launched. I have meetings Monday, Tuesday and possibly Wednesday, as well as my weekly Thursday lunch meeting, so there's plenty to keep my mind occupied.

I'm leaving weekends for my social life, and with the football season winding down, that will allow me even more time to pursue women company.

Great! I shall not worry about you then Fred. Happy moving forward....

Fred, I am so glad to find you out there having fun! Seems like I can only get online once a month or so, and your story encourages me.

We had snowfall yesterday and last night. Not the blizzard like last year, but for some reason, traffic snarls were horrendous. And I lost my beautiful cryptomeria japonica I'd planted in the back yard a couple of years ago.

I decided to call her. I'd been thinking about it much of the afternoon (I spent most of the morning shoveling snow). I thought of something I wanted to say to her, so I picked up the phone.

She'd been snowed in and the plows hadn't come all day. We spoke for about an hour.

I forgot what I wanted to say to her.

Great News Fred!

Isn't it nice to 'click' with someone again? I'll bet that hour seemed like 5 minutes!

You know what's funny?

When she picks up the phone and we start talking, everything is nice, normal and easy.

Between the times we talk though, I have a lot of questions and doubts running through my head. It makes it tough to just pick up the phone and dial.

Maybe that's "normal?" Maybe that's a good thing?

The bottom line for me though, is "take it slow."

Definitely slow!

But now you have a lot of friends to bounce things off of before you try them.

Sounds like you're getting the 'butterflies' in between calls.

Relax and go with the flow! You're good enough for her Fred!

Believe it!

Are you guys saying you should shake hands on a date? I hope I misunderstood...personally I would feel really weird if a guy extended his hand for a handshake...that seems so formal, like throwing ice on you or something. I'm more for the hugs...but not with a first date that did not go well.

No, no, kaycstamper. My meaning was that some hugs are the physical equivalent of a handshake: there's no feeling to them. They are just a "friendly substitute."

On our last date, the hug had some "sincerity" to it. Or at least that's how it seemed to me.

If I were going to end a date with a handshake, I'd at least try to put some sort of "flourish" -- like the French "kiss" to the hand...

Lol, A Hug from a women surely is welcome on a date compared to a handshake.

I take that as a womens signal that she cares for you, deeper than the formality of a handshake. An example of emotion and trust. A signal that she recognizes your a man, and she trusts you as a women. Liken it to a mans two handed handshake.

I don't know about licking the hand though fred, I think that would scare them away.

Normal IMO, just what us guys do Fred, when we are the responsible types, we tend to worry ourselves. Like you said, takin it slow will be key, pretty soon those worries will fade away as you diperse them thru communication and good experiences.

Wow, I know exactly what you mean by this- I have the exact same thing happen to me and one of the guys I'm going out with.

Sometimes I get confused wondering if these are red flags that I need to be paying attention to, or if maybe it's the devil trying to make me insecure and ruin a good thing?

Anyway, your bottom line is exactly right...take it slow. Absolutely no need to rush anything!

I agree that the self doubt thing is normal. I attribute it to that you kinda dig the chick and you're hoping she digs you too. If she doesn't then you have to start this whole rigamarole over again, and that would be a drag.

I've been dating a woman for a few weeks and I've had that lots of times (I know I promised an update for my thread - I'll get to it pretty soon). Anyway, I found that texting helps; not sure if you're into that. If I send a nice text (e.g. "thinking of your pretty eyes") and she sends me back something sweet, that washes away the doubt for a few hours; without having to interrupt either of our day with a phone call.

The other thing that helps is to think of what would really happen if she did just up and decide she didn't want to go out with me anymore......... pretty much nothing. It would definitely suck because right now I think she's totally cool; but compared to what I've been through; no, not that big a deal. To you I say this Fred: don't worry my man, you got her; you can get another one if it comes to that - you're an old pro now!

Oh, and I'm not sure what "questions" you have, but if they are questions to which your lady has the answers (and it's appropriate), I would just ask.

Opt

I agree that this is normal behavior, but you could try a different approach so that you don't feel doubtful between phone calls.

And it's easier said than done......

How about trying to let go of the outcome?

Meaning, have the attitude of whatever happens, happens, since you're doing the best you can when you do talk to her. It's a bit freeing when you can let go of the outcome. Just live each moment in the present, so that you are happy in between the phone calls and not worrying. That way, if things were to go south with her, you'd still be in good place, and can move on to the next person.

If I have learned anything through all this mess, I have learned that I have to be happy with me, what I'm doing with my life and my time, so that I can be happy with or without someone.

Of course I'd prefer to have a partner to share my life with, but I want to add value to thier life. And in order to add value to someone, I have to be in a place of happiness, contentment, financial stability, with enough left over to share with someone else. (This is me talking through my filter because I never felt good enough for my husband). I never felt valuable to him. That's why Value has been something I am having trouble with.)

Not saying you're not here already Fred, just pointing out some things to think about. If not you, than maybe someone else may get something from this.

I was a drain on my husband, because I wasn't in that place. I've had to work on some things within me to even be the kind of partner that would make for a good relationship. I had discovered that I wasn't prepared for the relationship I wanted with my husband. I'm working on becoming that kind of partner now. I still have a ways to go. I'm not financially dependent yet, much less have enough to share with someone else.

Thanks again, opt.

This also addresses a bit of what MJ was referring to, and I'll add comments to a separate post, but absolutely one of my questions is whether there's any "there" there.

I have to keep checking my "balance meter." We've only been on three dates, and only the last was anything like a "date." I know it's too soon to know -- when we're together, I think we enjoy each others' company, and we can certainly spend time talking on the phone.

But tonight, for example, I wonder if I should call her or not (it's too late now, so it's a moot point). I'll likely see her tomorrow, so I'll have a chance to do a "spot check" then.

Yes, I've heard this before, and I'm sure I'll get to it. I'm having difficulty bringing myself to ask, "how many times a week are you comfortable with me calling?"

More to come...

This is, of course, good advice, MJ. Thank you. I think part of my internal conflict centers on this very issue. Obviously, I'm attracted to this woman, or I wouldn't be pursuing a relationship with her. Not knowing if she has the same level of interest is what keeps me wondering.

It's absolutely too early to make any judgments, and this is a woman who has a lot of personal interests. She is very much into ballroom dancing (even teaches some) and traveled this weekend to attend a Winter Ball. She even sent me her schedule of dances so that I shouldn't look for conflicting events for us to attend.

Yes, I'm tempted to ask her to teach me to dance...

I appreciate your observations, MJ. My current situation is kind of like the batter facing the pitcher with two strikes already against him. I'm in the process of recovering from the trauma of infidelity as well as trying to overcome a life-long awkwardness and uncertainty around women I'm attracted to.

I'm also entering the late innings in life's game, to keep the baseball analogy going. I'd like to have female companionship because it's just different than having guy friends. I loved being in a relationship where my wife was (I thought) my best friend - someone with whom I could share my innermost thoughts, concerns, hopes, dreams and wishes. I miss that kind of relationship.

In a way, I am able to do that here more than anywhere else. And I've never knowingly met anyone from MB face to face!

"My current situation is kind of like the batter facing the pitcher with two strikes already against him. I'm in the process of recovering from the trauma of infidelity as well as trying to overcome a life-long awkwardness and uncertainty around women I'm attracted to."


See now I'd switch that around and look at it like a 2-0 count. You have already dealt with the infidelity and you're getting over the awkwardness; those things are in your favor now. Better yet, how about not thinking of women as your adversary (the pitcher)? How about your dance partner instead?

And I'll reiterate: if you want to talk to her, just call. You can preface the call with "I trust you'll let me know if I'm being a nuisance" and then tell her why you called: "I just wanted to hear your voice and I like talking to you." Worked for me.

Opt

Wow. It's always the simple answers that are the hardest to grasp, isn't it?

Thanks, opt.

Just when I was wondering if she reads and replies to email, I received one! And the good news is that she's up for another date!

I will likely see her briefly this evening (she has a service position at the Monday meeting), so I'll see if I can't firm things up.

More later tonight.

You guys have great advice!

As promised...

We have another date! On our last date we spoke of a TV cooking show we both watch, and I mentioned seeing a local restaurant on it featured. That same show aired again the other night, so I wrote down its name, checked its website and then suggested we go.

We're going.

The preliminary arrangements are made but I told her I'd call her before to firm them up.

That will give me an opportunity to use opt's suggestion.

Wow Fred. I'd jump at the chance to learn ball room dancing. It's somethimg I've always wanted to do but for whatever reasons never got around to it. Go for it dude! Ask her to teach you. It can make for amazing dates I'm sure.

Thanks, L4S. We've talked about dancing several times. My dad and mother danced quite a lot -- I remember watching them on the dance floor: He was 6' tall and she was 5' 1'', yet the difference in height didn't seem to make a difference.

Dancing is one of her top interests. If we progress in this relationship, I'm going to have to learn to dance or it will become a very divisive issue. Good thing that the prospect of dancing actually appeals to me!

Like you, I've never taken the time to really learn how. I grew up during the age when "dancing" simply meant getting out on a dance floor and gyrating wildly.

Think I grew up in the same time frame. Late 60's early 70's dancing was more for how silly one could look while listening to the Stones than enjoying the movement of dance. I have learned a little Jitter Bug (taught to me by my dad) and I can certainly see why dances such as Tango, Rumba etc, etc can be exhilerating.

You're a runner right? Think of that runners high only enjoying it with some one you love to be with and are close to. You both feel the same way at the same time when dancing. What a great way for shared recreational activity. Probably should take all of 3 seconds to POJA that.

One of the more pleasant memories I have of my husband is when we took a dance class together.

I thought our relationship was getting started, and he was in affair at the time.

My date for tomorrow was at tonight's meeting. I had a chance to speak with her before it began, but I was called into service as the "M.C." for the evening had called in sick and I was asked to fill in.

After the meeting was over, I happened to spy "Mr. Ugh" creeping on her. "Mr. Ugh" is a married man who invariably finds the most attractive single woman in the room and talks and flirts with her. Disgusting.

I was particularly irked because I wanted to speak with her. Of course, I have no claim on her, but after I spoke with a number of other people I came up and "joined" in their conversation.

Oddly enough, one of the questions I wanted to ask her was answered by her during the conversation. She told him all about the dance hall and the classes. I still may wind up asking her for "private dance lessons," but that will come if it seems appropriate.

The other question I wanted to ask her is if she wanted to come to my place and watch the Super Bowl. I'm going to cook up a batch of white chicken chili.


She's teaching dance Sunday, but said in her email to me that she should be home in time for the game. Perhaps she'd like to watch it with someone and not have to worry about cooking.

But I'll have the chance to ask her that tomorrow, during our date.

Fred,

On the out side looking in, on my couch watching Harry Potter on Friday night with my 6 year old grandson, I saw a ,

When you talked about your new girl's interest in ball room dancing, and then by the time I finish reading your thread I see you've have been wise enough to identify it.

Is it a show stopper....... maybe not

If you fall in love with the craft....... certainly not


As you have fun learning to dance, (by the way it will serve you well with others as you date) it will give you the perfect opportunity to meet one of her top EN's,

That's a two edged sword, knowing how to reach her emotional needs will attract her, the key is being honest about your feelings about dancing, if you love it great!!!!! If you don't then you have to let her know that.

I say enjoy, lots of fish in the sea, and plenty of time to catch a few,

I read on a post that we need 1 year of recovery for every 5 years we were married.............OUCH !!!!!!!

I've already decided that clock started on the 1st D-day for me...........by my math I'm already 4 years into a 5 year recovery.....

I think the reality is we will need time, we are not ready to commit to a long term relationship, how long that will be,only each of us will know.


So as usual I'm looking forward to how your evening went

SC

stillcommitted, I actually like dancing. I'm just not any good at it.

I come from the days when "dancing" just meant getting out on the dance floor and shaking everything that could move. One might as well not have had a partner!

But I've been "dancing" since I was in sixth grade.

Just like anything else, I don't expect to be an expert (or even an advanced) dancer right away. But I remember watching my parents dance and thought how graceful and elegant it seemed.

So now, my date likes to dance. Why not ask her if I can be a part of that? As you so cleverly put it, the worst that can happen is that I'll become a better dancer, and thus maybe even find more potential dates if this one doesn't pan out.

A little tidbit of information she leaked tonight is that she's only been dancing for the past 7 or 8 years. And that she now teaches it means that she not only really likes it, but that she's gotten pretty good at it. So yes, it does seem to be a major EN for her. Good info to know, one way or the other.

The other part of my post -- the real reason, in fact -- was the totally disgusting behavior on the part of Mr. Ugh. I've witnessed his predictable behavior for quite some time. That a married man with three children blatantly flirts with other women -- at every %$#@*& opportunity -- is just flat-out disgusting. I fear for his wife and their marriage.

(Mr. Ugh is also manic-depressive. He's on stabilizing meds and just to hear him prattle on and on just makes my eyes glaze over. Sadly, he's a tall, dark and handsome type and many people tolerate him).

I'm sure your girl sees right thru him.

I know it's the others your worried about,

And from our side if he and his W would start to work on things they could reconnect before the nuclear blast goes off in their lives.

Maybe the opportunity will present itself where you might be able to gently nudge them in that direction one of these days.

by the way I haven't seen a ball room dancer that wasn't hot !!! at least on tv......

And what's up with the pew girl..... still winking at her too???

Hey, stillcommitted. I'm sure she saw right through him; neither of them are new to the meeting. My irritation was based on two separate issues:

• This is a married guy. Not withstanding that he ALWAYS seeks out the attractive women, his behavior is just WRONG, and
• I had hoped to speak with her myself.

OK, so the second issue is purely selfish, and I'll have her undivided attention on our date.

I've been trying to understand my reaction. I can only presume it was jealousy I was feeling. I'm not proud or happy of my emotional response. As I said earlier, I have no claim on her and thus I think I'm being a little irrational. I need to check my impulse -- which I think I did, actually -- but I'm not happy that I find myself this "involved" at such an early stage.

As for "pew lady," she's been absent from church the past couple of Sundays, so there's been no progress in that regard.

Fred,

I don't think it's jealousy, I think it's all about this guy not understanding boundaries. He's the type that will create misery in a lot of people's lives given a chance, he'll troll til he hooks one.
How could you not get irritated by that.

You know you said something in an earlier post about the leopard being your best friend and how you miss that aspect of a relationship, I have lost my best friend as well, and of the things I have lost that is one of the saddest for me. Developing that type of bond is not easy and that takes time, and I would hope that you can develop that with someone else, It took me a couple of years to develop that with my stbxWW,

As things move along I hope you can find that connection again, I always enjoyed being married to by best friend and wouldn't have wanted it any other way.

Way to early to be thinking that deep, your just suppose to be working on a few dance moves !!!!

I would find it hard to believe anyone on this site not getting irritated at his type of behavior.

You're absolutely right, stillcommitted. Right now, I'm just working on being friends.

I like a woman's company. I have guy friends, I sponsor guys (and I have a male sponsor) but there isn't the same type of companionship possible (for me, at least) as there is with a woman.

Color me weird, or maybe just old, but I'm not in the hunt for "sexual conquests." I'd much rather be friends with a woman first, even if it never goes any further.

There are some women with whom I have to be careful, because while I like them as friends, I sometimes sense they would like something more -- maybe not with me, but that's their goal -- and I'm not drawn to them in that way.

And married women -- well, they are just flat-out out of bounds!

EDITED TO ADD: Don't get me wrong -- I'd like something more than just a "friend" relationship some day, but with me, friendship has to come first!

I have allways hated those idiots Fred. I can tell you of my experiences but really you seem to have it down as to what the guy is like and allready hate watching it.

I bet your protective instincts have a lot to do with this, as did mine, but remember that you can't save the world, and you can only report to any authorities offenses that are clearly, and I mean clearly against the moral code and or laws. You may be right about him, but as you know a lot of people will not do anything untill real obvious damage has occured.

It sucks I know, your not alone watching this crap happen. Prayers for you.

Sounds like mature accually. Sexual conquests? Lol. I'm right there with ya Fred, I'm not that insecure either.

Fred, one of the most important things about self development and growth is just being "aware" of your feelings in the first place. From there, you can dig deeper and try to figure out what those feelings are telling you.

I agree that many of us would be upset at just the mere fact that the married creep was flirting with anyone, especially someone whom you're interested in.

As far as the "claim on her", you already figure it out that you don't have any claim, and what she does is up to her. That is a healthy mindset.

Fred- observing how she acts when the creep approaches her also offers excellent insight to you about how HER boundaries are.

Was she appropriate with him? Flirtatious? PLay into it? Repulsed? etc. I would think her reaction to him would be very revealing to her character...and would also be a factor in either alieviating or increasing your stress/discomfort about him.

Oh, and have a great time on your date!!

Thanks, Sidney. Nice insights, too!

No, she was very reserved and polite. But she's like that most of the time. She neither displayed any flirtatious behavior, nor did she display any discomfort. She knows he's married (and I did offer him while the three of us were chatting two free tickets to the auto show "for he and his wife") so I think she simply talked with him as one might during a cocktail party or reception.

Our date tonight was a mixed bag. It turns out the restaurant requires reservations and I hadn't made any. I apologized and we went elsewhere. The good news is that she said that perhaps a week day would be better? I take that as opening to ask her out during the week...

She also made another comment that pleased me. At one point she said "dinner and a meeting was a perfect date." That she acknowledged us having a date and not just sharing the same "friend experiences" I thought was a positive note.

At one point she said that tomorrow's game was probably going to be the only football game this year that she actually watched (she's from Wisconsin -- and I brought her a Green Bay Packers balloon when I came to pick her up). She said she was planning on making chili dogs.

I told her I was going to be making some white chicken chili, and that if she didn't feel like cooking and watching the game alone, she was welcome to come to my place, as I'd have more than enough. She is teaching a class tomorrow afternoon and probably won't get home until right around kickoff time. Basically, she declined, but I left the invitation open and said that if she had a change of mind, all she had to do was pick up the phone. I don't expect her to do so, but I'm prepared if she does.

So did Ballroom show up ?????

And was the church lady in her pew today?????

Great game regardless,

I sent her a message about 6:20 saying I had gotten a late start on the chili, that it wouldn't be done until about 7:00 and the invitation was still open. She replied that she had just gotten home and needed to get some things done, but thanks. Pretty much what I expected.

Church lady was there, and we spoke briefly, but nothing else.

Yes, it was a pretty good game. And I have quite a bit of chili left over!

Fred,

I will say that i met someone who has had such bad luck dating on the internet that she said she would almsot date anyone who wasn't sitting on a motorcycle. . . but we hit it off as we are both sort of looking for each other. And I have had enough dating mistakes and experience trying to get better, that I am actually getting better, i did more righ tthis time than ever before. The biggest help, outcome independent, just practicing meeting people and trying to get more comfortable in social settings. . . great practice, and i don't worry about the outcome anymore. .

wiftty

Thanks, WIFTTY. I find that when I have the urge to move ahead too quickly I have to squash it. Fortunately, that's not real hard to do.

After the trainwreck, I'm a lot more careful crossing the tracks these days.

Ballroom lady is nice, friendly and she's given me no indication that she DOESN'T like spending time with me. But then she's also given me no indication that she's in a real hurry to get into a relationship, either.

Which is perfect. Oh, maybe sometimes I'd like something a little deeper, but I remind myself that "stinking thinking" gets me into no good. So, I'll continue to spend time with her as my time and hers permits. And if something develops, it will. If not, well, I'm getting good practice...

Fred,
I haven't had a chance to mention that something had occurred to me about Ballroom Lady that hasn't been mentioned here. Some time ago you said she gave you a schedule to coordinate possible times you could get together.
Is it possible that another motive for providing you with that was so that you could attend some of the events? I know performers are sometimes humble about asking people to come to their performances.
Also on that note: you've been talking about learning to BR dance, which is fantastic. However, in order for you to have this activity be UA time, it may be you taking a more passive participatory role.
--All this is depending on what level she's dancing/competing/etc.
The thought did occur to me for your consideration.

Opt

Thanks, opt. I've thought along those lines as well. She gave me some new information the other day: There is a ballroom where public dances are held on weekends. Before each dance a dance lesson is given, which is part of the entry fee (not expensive, about $10 to attend). Sometimes she teaches, but usually as a substitute.

There is a web site (a real surprise, huh?) that lists the schedule of dances. I'm thinking of going -- likely to one that she's already committed to going -- but now I have to decide whether I want to tell her I plan on going, or to just show up.

My feeling is that surprising her by showing up is NOT a good idea. But letting her know that I plan on going without making her feel like I have an expectation of it being a date or her somehow focusing on my presence is something I haven't yet figured out how to do.

Hey Fred. Do you have that website. I believe in past thposts of your you mentioned that you lived in the northern VA area. So do I and i would love to check that place out. Even though I'm not currently seeing anyone the ballroom dancing thing has been on my bucket list and I could use an activity that will keep me busy.

Your doing well on the dating thing. Putting yourself out there but still keeping your head on your shoulders and feet on the ground. Awesome!

Lookin4Serentiy, I hope this doesn't violate the TOS:

http://www.glenechopark.org/dancing.htm

You might just ask her how she'd feel about your attending, tell her you've been thinking about it.

My neighbor "showed up" at my Christmas performance at church, and I felt weird about it, kind of like stalking sort of a feeling, but then he watches when my car goes by and calls the second I get in and drops in on me, etc. etc. (and he's engaged) so I finally had to have a talk with him about it. He was cool at first but seems to have adjusted to the boundaries I gave him.

Your situation is different, but all the same, I think by asking her how she'd feel about it, it shows more respect for her.

I think you're absolutely correct, KC. I like the approach you suggest, too. "How would you feel about...?"

So for my 25 year marriage I should have taken 5 years to recover? I agree it takes a long time for the triggers to stop and the memories to fade of both good and bad times....but no way I am putting my life on hold for THAT to happen. I think if you can be honest with any potential mate/date about where you are in recovery there is no reason you have to be alone as you travel that path.

Why don't you just go and see if you like the dancing, and let her watch you be yourself. It is entirely possible she is introducing you into a group of mature adults that have no expectations of one another.

Maybe she wants to see how you are with people also Fredo. Maybe she is one of those people who can go out and socialize and still has great boundaries. Maybe she is looking to see if you can be sponatneuos and still respectful of others.

There are tons of maybes my friend. Just remember who you are, and you have nerves of steel. "Bond..Fred Bond"..

You just be you Fred, and it will happen if its right.


Yeah go out and dance man! If I can get my legs fixed so I can I will someday too. There was this guy who invited me to go to a spanish dance club a few years ago that he was part owner of, but at the time, 2003, my wife was still at large and i was just surviving for the kids. I was not up to it.

I want dance lessons, wanna get back in judo,(I was pretty limber and made it through the workout for an old diabetic with three bum limbs lol back in 2003, flips, rolls and all,lol). Gotta start swimming again, nautilus machines, use my exercise bike, yoga, all that.

You the Man Fredo

I have though about the recovery time also. Since it relates to a form of death, I have also thought about the "7 years of mourning" thing.

I've heard that every 7 years your body has gone a complete cycle of replacing all of its cells also.

A long time ago, I heard that if you have a problem that had taken 10 years to develop, it would take 10 years to eradicate it also. Phycologically speaking with therapy.


It seem to me that 7 years is not a long time really to wait if your life is full otherwise. It will be a welcome blessing to be truly ready if I ever pursue another relationship seriuosly. I will do what I can to find my ENs fufilled outside marriage anyways, and find out what they really are also.

Friends, work, and enjoying life while attending to my children and thier continued growth are my priorities now. Without that base to work from, I would have nothing to offer anyways. I wanna be my own best friend first, before I try to take on another woman and be Hers.

So 7 years seems right to me. 1 years for every bad 5 years of marriage? Well I think that would depend on how bad it was, and personal recovery efforts, to many variables.. Guess your ready when your ready, and it different for everybody. Im in no rush. But you are right about honesty, people can help you heal.

I second this. You could let her know that you're interested in trying it out to see if you like it. Maybe you could ask her what's a good way to get started? And I don't know that I'd just show up if she's working there at the time. Maybe if things continue with you guys, you could surprise her like that.





WOOT!

Thanks, folks. I think kaycstamper had the best approach.

Talking with her and asking her how she'd feel about me showing up at the dance hall lets her know that I'm not stalking her. It also gives her the opportunity to suggest that we go together. If she doesn't, then I'll just go by myself.

Interesting thing about my mom and step dad. He was only widowed (45 year marriage) for about 6 months when he began corresponding with my mom (whom he had known as a friend of his and is late wife for 30 years). They were married before his one year widowhood anniversary. His daughter, also of course a friend of the family, told my mom before the wedding, 'Well, you have to know Dad still can't say mom's name without crying.' Mom said to her, 'well, I know he is still hurting. But,there is no reason he has to be alone while he hurts.'



I agree about the variables. Part of the reason I was able to move on so quickly, is because I had known for YEARS my now XH was a liar, probably a cheater and most definitely checked out of the marriage emotionally. I didn't have some false sense of security with him.

I Agree with this, but don't rule out the dancing is all I'm saying Fredo. If you are not as interested in dancing as you are her, then maybe thats the best approach. Either way, just be you.

Thats very sweet.


Yep I can see that is very true SW. Being allready grounded helps us to move on. I don't blame my being alone on my wifes problems or what she did to me, I would have to blame that on myself. My Therapist gets mad at me when I say I don't have anything to offer, she says I do. I don't want to rely on anyone for emotional security, and if I get into a relationship, this would bug me.

See I know I am not ready, to many other things to do first, and that is clearly my problem, never again gonna rush that one, or ask someone else to help me with things i am responsible for.

I guess its a pride thing, IDK like I said, with time and work and friends I will work it out, I am happy with what I have, and will go get what I need.

Fredo is a champ IMO, got a career, good health, and on top of things. I need to get those too in order to feel good about myself. I am not fooling myself either, only I can do it. Its cool, its just a stage

Thanks for the link Fred

I think the 1 year for 5 is just a general rule of thumb. Everyone adjusts differently...there are a lot of factors...how long you were together, how intertwined or independent you were in the marriage, how resilient you are, how much effort you've put into your recovery (not recovery of marriage but you as a person), counseling, books, etc., it all helps.

Personally I've had a harder time getting over my fiance than I did my XH. But then it was only a two year marriage, we never lived together, and he showed his slime colors to a fault! (whereas my fiance was a nice person and I enjoyed his company)

I don't think it's a good idea to go directly from one person to the next, I think it's good to have time for healing and if you have any baggage leftover, it's good to deal with that too...no one else wants it. But I don't think anyone should feel they have to wait for YEARS to date if they feel ready and want to. Some of us have been through so much we just don't WANT to date. Maybe someday that will change...right now I'm busy anyway.

Dang Kays not available. Ok off to facebook

Seriously though Kay, don't you find friends more important than anything? I do, and I agree with everything you said.

I also agree with SW that people can help others heal, and sometimes long time friends are so already aquainted we can dovetail into a close relationship with support.

It truly is individual huh?

And now you know why the PM ability has been disabled on this site.

Hee hee that is so true Fred, but in these situations with two single people don't you wish there was an exception?

Lol....



I agree too. I think God uses us to help each other. I also find it interesting that most of our wounds are from our relationships, and most of our healing is through relationships as well.

I'd much rather be with someone who is supportive and giving, than someone who thinks you should heal completely on your own. ESPECIALLY if they are the ones that hurt you.

I do. Maybe if we could send a copy of the divorce decrees to Dr. Harley he'd give us private messaging. One can wish.

Sorry, I was busy on FB. (just kidding) No, I was stuck in traffic and you guys were the furthest thing from my mind! You guys are too funny.
Hey, I could send the Harley's THREE divorce decrees, that should REALLY earn me some IM privileges! Ha ha

I agree about friends being the most important thing (since I can't have my late husband back) but unfortunately all but one of my friends has moved away. It's hard to make new ones, when you start from scratch it takes so long, but I'm expending the effort. There's nothing like old friends who have a history with you and know you real well, and you them.
I have another friend that I email with every day, have for years, yet we've never met face to face...she is one of my dearest friends, we pour our hearts out to each other, we joke with each other, we admonish each other, we have been through thick and thin together, yet some people say that doesn't count as a friend because we have yet to meet face to face. I think we definitely will someday, we're just waiting for one of us to win the lottery.

I look like it as a group therapy sort of place, and in my life anyway, I need this board and its community arms length away. But that again is me.

I want my next relationship if any to have very little to do with the past, and healing from anyone else. I suppose with that attitude I may be setting myself up for a life of lonliness, but I find the people here enough social personal contact to remain human and not an island so to speak. Dealing with the painful past is why I came here, helping others avoid pain and overcome it is why I stay around, but I can find anyone who has trouble in life in the real world that I can share sorrows with. What I need most is to put it behind.

This place has become my church of sorts. A place of sharing and teaching, and to be honest, I am just to afraid to lose that respect of distance and objectivity it provides for me. I can say anything that is on my mind, share my life experiences, and owe nobody anything in the end. I would not be able to do that with a personal relationship as well as here. JMO of course, but because people all have a past and triggers they need special attention. I wouldn't bring a recovering alcoholic to a bar and expect them to just tough it out and drink soda, and I hope I am ready to handle it if and when I date again, she orders a drink at dinner. It will probably be a deal breaker for me, but it shouldn't be a giant trigger that floors me, If you KWIM.

On the positive side of the outlook I have about how its healthy that there is no more PMs here, if I am completly healed and not in need of anyone, what does it hurt to know and feel great empathy and respect for women I know here, and remain thier friend, even want to give them a hug, and still not do a Damsel In Distress thing?

Having positions of authority before in my life, and because of the kind of guy I am, an emotional attachment to females has developed before in me. In the end the best thing I did was respect them enough to insist they find protection and handle things themselves emotionally. Its a tricky thin line to walk between empathy and sympathy, understanding and feeling. What fears my inner moral and emotional core that kept me from the ego trip of a hero trying to save them, have been probably what did save them. Its notable that what my second wife said after I had left her for the two years when she drank, "The best thing you did for me was to leave". AHA! So I wasn't her hero after all.. what a relief!

My 19 year old calls this board my "Sad people network". I call it my hope people network, but there is something to be said and guarded against any relationship that might get seriuos coming from the board. If they come here in sadness and sorrow and do not move past it completly, and depend on a relationship found here to heal them and restore them internally, then it could be a disaster and they could lose the spirit of what the board is for.

To restore everyone, and support marriage, and in that order.


Email addys are shared though a lot here, and that is not frowned upon at all.

Well now isn't that special...Hmmm?...

Thats so funny KC, its like sayin all the people here are not friends.

Do those same people tell you money is no excuse? That if you really really wanted to be a real friend you would sell all you own and go to her?

people can be a trip huh?

Well I didn't take it that anyone was serious about messaging, just a little friendly banter among friends. You know, I've been on my grief healing site for almost six years and have made lots of friends there, same with another site. I see a place for messaging, sometimes you need to say something to someone in private, maybe you feel a particular bond or trust with one person but don't feel comfortable sharing it with everyone in the world...or maybe your message is just for that person's ears alone, and it needn't have anything to do with romantic interest, that's not what I'm here for anyway. I have messaging on both of the other sites I'm a regular on and never have a problem with it. In all my years on forums, I've never seen it abused, maybe I'm just luckier than most.
That aside, it shouldn't matter so much where you meet someone if you both click, and deep inside we all have a moral responsibility to deal with our "stuff" before involving another person in our life. We have to be true to ourselves. I don't equate this site the same as a bar to an alcoholic, to me that's not a fair comparison. We're here to learn and grow, not continue making wrong choices or jump from person to person. But I agree that if you have a problem with alcohol, you shouldn't frequent bars, that's like tempting yourself with poison. Maybe that's why I'm not on singles sites...I need to figure out how to know good from bad before I get involved again, and if I can't figure it out any better than I have in the past with my eyes wide open and paying attention to red flags...I don't belong with anyone. Thats JMO.

Did I tell everyone that Ballroom Lady called me last night?

No, of course I didn't. It was a trick question.

Actually, I called her last evening after picking up some Chinese carry-out, but only got her voice mail. I left her a message saying that I had hoped to hear a nice friendly voice and was sorry to have missed her.

Right around 10:00pm my phone rang and it was her. She was getting ready for bed, but said that she hadn't been real good at replying to my emails/calls and didn't want me to think that was her style. She had been out with a (female) friend, then got back and gotten ready for bed when she decided to call.

We had a nice chat (no talk of dancing -- I'm going to have that conversation with her face to face) and I finally brought it to and end, because it was past the time she usually goes to bed (according to her) and I didn't want to keep her up late.

I thought it was a nice gesture on her part, and a very positive "statement" about how well we're getting along.

Don't you?

I think she really digs you buddy . Enjoy the journey!

AGG

And Kay, I was as usual, giving my opinion, and probably blowing up a mountain into a molehill. Lol.

I took it as freindly, and took advantage to make a funny also.

Then the subject was brought up about the PM option being removed, and I expounded on my ConstantP philosophy, hence the mountain from the molehill. Like what I said had any real importance in the big scheme of things.

I bet I would get along great with everyone here in RL, but I doubt I would share what I do on this site with them, and that is my point really. We all are here with a common denominator that brings us closer and dictates the spirit of our relationships. Maybe if we all ended up at a MB seminar together, we might share more, but I doubt we would do it at a coffee break at a work situation. Thats what I would be afraid to lose, the objective opinions of friends wishing to enrich thier lives as I do. This medium is perfect for me in that, but its not the same as in person, I know that.

So are you busy this weekend? Lol.

Yep, your doin fine.

I just got back from dinner with my daughter -- I took her out for her birthday (which was almost two weeks ago!). During our meal we spoke briefly about my "social life."

Acknowledging that I've gone on several dates with Ballroom Lady (BL), she asked me, "has she ever called YOU?"

I replied that she called last night. "Not a return call, Dad. Just out-of-the-blue?" Negative, I said.

"I don't get her," was DD's comment.

What's to get? I said that as we've talked I think she's had some relationships that have gone south as well. I know she was once married, and she's told me that she was "getting out of a bad relationship" when she hit bottom and got into recovery. (I don't know if she remembers, but I was at her very first meeting, and my new bride-to-be and I were the first to speak with her). I saw her date several guys over the years. I'm not sure what happened to those relationships, but they too, are done.

So, I think she's just being as cautious as me. I told DD that I thought maybe she was just not yet ready to "put it all out there." And I'm fine with that. Let's take some time, get to know each other, and let things grow naturally.

I don't mind watering plants to keep them growing. I don't put them under spotlights and force-feed them to speed up the process. Doing the same thing with a relationship -- especially after the kind of relationship I/we have experienced -- is a recipe for disaster, I think.

Fred,

just practice as much as you can, so that when you find a really interesting partner, you can keep her interested for an eternity.

I have communicated with my last saturday night date, and we both are kind of thinking the same thing, at the moment, which is lets see each other to figure out if we are compatible, because all the signs are there. . . but let me tell you, if i hadn't screwed up so many dates prior, i wouldn't know what land mines to avoid. practice does make better.

But also, on my last great date, I just didn't have enough experience to carry conversation with someone with little in common. With someone with more in common, its a bunch easier, so keep that in mind, as there are many unseen and unknown variables which affect the outcome.

wiftty

I can see where you understood what I said Kay might mean I was comparing this site or relationships developed here to reflect addictions, but it was more pointed to obsession than anything really. I guess that would be a problem that would happen to me really if I am honest, and because I see things through my own filter, and my filter is still clogged. Lol.

Its cool, I am reminded of the saying, "Let pateince do her perfect work" or something like that, time can heal, and it is doing so with me also. Its a side effect of objective truth, much to the chagrin of the misery I was once in before, and my tendency to obsess over details.

I feel like Rosanna Anna Dana, and I should just say .."Oh...Nevermind!..."

Sounds like a typical loving young daughter Fred. Yes you are being wise, that comes with age of course.

The latest:

We have a lunch date for Sunday.

This, at the restaurant we tried to go to Saturday but did not have reservations.

I already made the reservations for Sunday.

Question for the assembled masses:

This is the day before Valentine's Day. We are nowhere near being at that stage. Would it be inappropriate to give her flowers or something during the date? Maybe a little box of those candy hearts with the writing on them?

Just ignoring it seems to be a little coarse. But I'm so often wrong, maybe NOT doing something "Valentine-ish" is the best course of action.

Disclaimer: I do not celebrate holidays.

Personal opinion: Valentines Day is the cheesiest of all holidays.

What I saw on Mass Media: For a couple newly dating (less than 3 months) a card and dinner out is sufficient. Anything more can be seen as overkill.

Ugh. Did I mention I hate Valentines Day?

A single yellow rose is nice.

Yellow meaning just friendship!

Yellow Rose
A yellow rose symbolizes friendship and caring. It's the perfect innocent gift to give to a friend or give to a loved one when you simply want to say "I care". When given to a friend it also means "I'm happy with our friendship."

Up to you!

Yeah - holidays are kinda cheesy - I prefer to celebrate all the time!

It would have been the kiss of death for me if a man took me out the day before Valentine's and did not acknowledge the holiday by giving me some token of affection. It's a sweetheart holiday, and to not to do anything says, "Hey you! I ain't sweet on you!"

I haven't read much of this thread, just the last few posts and some random bits here and there. So I'll just give some random advice:

If it's a first date, bring a single rose, or arrange for the waiter to bring out a small box of (good) chocolates at the end of the meal, stating that they are from the gentleman.

If it's a few dates in, you should know enough to think of something cheap and relevant to give her--a CD of her favorite band, a book by her favorite author, a small GC and catalog of her favorite seed company (maybe that's just me...)--something that says "I've been paying attention because I'm interested, but there is no pressure."

Months in, scheduled activities are THE BOMB. The good bomb, not the blasted one. It shows you know what she likes, and you plan to stick around for the event, which should NOT be on Valentines, but a week or month later.

A year in? RING. Poop or get off the pot, she ain't getting younger.

Yeah Fred give something for Valentines Day.

Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
(Oscar Wilde)

I like that CWMI

I'd keep it low key Fred,

Wouldn't get a dozen roses

The WW used to say it doesn't have to be expensive just thoughtful.... of course I always struggled with that.

Something cute and little that you could set on the table during dinner.... I think Opt may have to get something more substantial, if I've been reading between his lines correctly

Enjoy dinner

Nothing with hearts...it's too suggestive. A single rose is perfect.

I think the romantics have it (sorry, those of you who grumble over "Hallmark Holidays" ).

The yellow rose (maybe two) strikes me as having the perfect balance of "I like you" without being overly mawkish.

I like yellow roses. However, I can say that I always think of my grandmother when I think of yellow roses. They were her favorite. I would go with deep dark pink. (that is if I didn't despise Hallmark Holidays. ;))

Yes to the single rose. It's just right.

About the color - if she wears a lot of warm colors like rust/brown/cream, then get yellow. If she tends toward cool colors like blue/green/purple get her a pink one. Have the florist put it in one of those little water tubes so it will stay fresh during your date.

Don't do a red rose. It stands for true love and you're not there yet. Besides it's been done too much.

Agreed, no red roses.

The color-matching is interesting, but I think the yellow rose is more on-target in meaning. Here's some info on what the color of roses mean:

Pink and yellow both have a good message, but somehow the yellow seems to make more sense to me.

Just one, huh?

I have to learn to do more research before I spout off.

Here's a slightly different perspective on yellow and pink roses:

• Pink: Happiness, Romance, Admiration, Sweetness
• Yellow: Welcome or Welcome Back, Friendship, Caring, Joy

So, given the colors she wears, perhaps pink is the way to go.

Two, and yellows definition sounds awesome. One for each of you.

If it was me, lol, I woulda got red ones not knowing that the promise was expressed in the yellow ones.

Pink is nice, but i would give that to my Mom, or just a friend.

Lavender and orange are just scary and sound airheaded at this stage, those can wait until infatuation sets in.

and of course, Red is pretty heavy, will take time to get there.

We don't have to discuss white.

Its so cool you have put all this thought into this Fred. I would have those definitions handy at dinner, it should win points.


Edit: now you changed the definitions lol

Give her yellow or pink and tell her what they mean to you, and what she means to you..

There I said it..

"Does a Rose by any other name, still smell as sweet?"

I would go with having the waiter deliver a small box of fine chocolate to the table and tell her it is from you. Have a card inside....

A flower given to me when I am out somewhere is just....a pain. How do I carry it? Where do I put it?

Of course this would be my advise if I didn't despise Valentines Day.

Lol, What is that saying? "I thinketh thou protests to much" I think you secretly like Valentines day.

Your funny SW, every time I see that line, it makes me laugh.

No, I really do despise Valentines Day. However, I ADORE gift giving...of the meaningful variety.

The thought that my husband would buy me something because the rest of the world is doing it--well, doesn't appeal to me at all.

I just can't resist putting my two cents worth in about the gift giving at this stage of Fred's dating.

Yeah I get that completly, its sorta like getting a corporate Christmas card.

The best gifts are the ones you get for seemingly no reason, and shows that someone is thinking of you.

Im just teasin ya of course

Corporate Christmas Card! Exactly!

One of the best gifts I ever got was from my now husband one week after we met. He bought me a Droid! He was LISTENING to me talk about whether I should get one or not. I was SHOCKED and impressed with the gift....

And don't think I don't appreciate it! Given the mistakes I've made in the past with my love life, I'm grateful people are willing to sit in the background and "coach" me. You folks helped me on the SAA forum and you continue to help me here.

I hope I don't come across as needy.

My approach is to be respectful, courteous and polite. I'm not a wimp, but I'm also not one of the "bad boy" types.

What I mean is that I think I already decided that giving her something to recognize Valentine's Day was something I wanted to do. But what?

Perhaps if everyone had responded, "no, don't - it's too early" or "you don't know her well enough" or "it's inappropriate at this stage," I would have listened. I'd have been surprised, but I would have listened.

But most of you have indicated that a gesture of some sort is not only appropriate, but would probably be welcome.

The idea of the chocolate delivered by the waiter is a good one, but it doesn't fit this type of restaurant. I -am- thinking about buying a rose (or roses) in a bud vase, taking it to the restaurant tomorrow and asking them to bring them to the table on Sunday.

At some point maybe I'll tell y'all about the "conversation" I had with myself during a run today about the "bad boy" vs. the "nice guy."

Would LOVE to hear that. Hee hee.

Maybe you shouldn't be takin her to to Checkers then.

Lol sorry teasin goes both ways bro.

I love following this thread, it gives me so much joy watching a brother,(in Christ), recovering back into dating, and also because you are such a thoughtful man Fred, seeing it done so.

The Bad boy thing may be fun for kids, but I laugh at it now. As a matter of fact it sort of a deal breaker if the woman I am with expresses some kind of attraction to "James Dean" types is a seriuos way. OMG it is so funny, but I imagine it fits in with a mans fantasy that everybody want his girlfriend, and he is the Big Dog Alpha Male that nobody can overcome.
..

Go to a martial arts class and get a black belt or break some boards for her, or if you wanna pump it up and be a brooding and troubled man with, "A Past", watch some Twilight episodes..

To me Bad Boy images are all BS. None of us are tough, but thats JMO.

OK, because I have a few minutes, I'll 'ruminate' on the mental conversation I had with myself while running yesterday...

SETTING THE SCENE: I sent a text message to BL asking her if she were free, did she want to go to the restaurant we tried to eat at last weekend. She replied that she had a dance she was going to attend. Then she suggested, "how about lunch, Sunday?" I checked and found out the restaurant was open for Sunday lunch.

SCENARIO 1 (The "bad boy"): Make a reservation for 11:30, text her back and tell her I'll pick her up at 11:00.

I did not do this.

What I did was

Sent her a text, "Sunday lunch served from 11:00 - 2:30. What works for you?"

She replies (she's at work, which is why we're texting), "How about later, 1:30 - 2:00?"

SCENARIO 2 (The "wimp"): Send a reply text asking, "which do you like better, 1:30 or 2:00?"

I did not do this.

What I did was

Made a reservation at the restaurant for 1:30 (hey, if I can get an extra 30 minutes with her, I'm going to!). Sent her a text saying, "we have a reservation for 1:30. I'll pick you up at 1:00."

So, during my run, I was satisfied that I had been decisive enough to make the date but caring enough to let her preferences be considered.

In fact, I was pretty happy that this was POJA in miniature!

Thank God there were no Police around when you were thinking this fred...

I see where yur goin with it though, dominance and control..

You are just doin so awesome..

Fred - you're an inspiration even for me a married man!

Don't anyone stone me!!! I just started asking my wife out on dates over the past 3 months after not giving a damn for 18 yrs :-(

I had almost forgotten what it was to date but I can live vicariously through you and pick up some pointers!

Good on ya Fred!!!

Wow, I'm actually helping someone else??? Isn't that the most amazing thing about this site?

Thanks Powerbane, that was a very nice comment.

Come on Fred ..... how was lunch ???????


And was Pew Girl there this morning ?????/

Ah, SC. Thanks for asking.

I'm still processing, I guess. Which is why I haven't posted an update yet. But since you asked...

First, yes, Pew Lady was there and we said hello to each other. But since I had a lunch date, I left right after service and didn't talk with her further.

So, on to the lunch date.

Saturday evening I had a florist put together a small vase with three yellow roses, a little Baby's Breath and some green fern. I wasn't able to arrange for it to be at the table, so I just took it with me and gave it to her when I arrived at her door.

She surprised me by handing me a box with a red ribbon on it -- she had made some "chocolate raspberry truffle brownies!"

Once again she offered to drive, and I told her that unless she preferred to drive, I was happy to do so, that I actually like driving.

Lunch was terrific! The food was great and made us think about coming back for dinner another night. A very small restaurant, it only seats about 30, so in a way it's a "hidden treasure."

And once again, she reached for her purse when the check came, and I once again refused to accept her offer to share the cost. "This was my suggestion and thus I insist on paying," I told her. We agreed that if she made the date, I'd be willing to let her share the expense.

I dropped her back home afterward. She had said there were things she had to do, and since I couldn't think of any way to extend the date, I had no other choice.

Last night, after I had eaten dinner, I opened the box and ate one of the brownies. Immediately after, I sent her a text message telling her how delicious they were, and thanked her both for the brownies and the date.

This morning she texted a short reply, "YW TY" ("You're welcome, thank you").

The reason I'm still processing is that when we parted yesterday, there was no hug, yet I got the impression that she'd really enjoyed herself. The brownies were a nice touch, and she seemed to like the roses (the arrangement was yellow, green and white, so I told her that in addition to being a "pre-Valentine's Day" offering, they were also Green Bay Packers colors, and she could display them proudly).

So I'm not sure where we are and where things may be headed.

Slow and steady, that's the ticket. I don't want to move too fast, but I also confess that I'm having a hard time getting a feel for how she's feeling.

(Yes, I know, you're going to tell me I should ask her, right? In due time, in due time. I don't feel comfortable going that far, yet).

Yeah but its OK Fred, you will when the time is right. Wouldn't worry about the hug really, don't read into it.

Good news, esspecially bout the brownies.

She wouldn't have gone to all of the trouble to make special brownies for you if she didn't think you were special! (I gave Valentines to family members but deliberately left out any men I know because I don't want to give them the wrong idea.) I agree, try not to over analyze, you're doing great!

Thanks CP and KC. I keep telling myself that my attempts to "analyze" are really just my tendency to want "understanding" and "gratification" -- often before their time has come.

"Easy does it" and "one day at a time" are slogans I've known and tried to live by for years. I just find myself reminding me of them more frequently!

More than likely I'll see her tonight at the regular Monday meeting. If nothing else, I'll let her know again how great the brownies are!

Me, I'm not worried about a hug if I have a plate full of raspberry truffle brownies.

Opt

Me too, Opt!

It's been a slow week, but at least I've been enjoying the chocolate-raspberry truffle brownies!

We spoke on the phone tonight, and I did ask her about the dances and lessons. She became very animated over this topic - it's clear to see she really enjoys dancing! She made one comment I thought humorous (not the exact quote):

On the contrary. I remember her saying that one learned better by dancing with multiple partners -- and I told her that. (And I did not suggest we go together, either. I'm going by myself -- at least the first time. I'll let HER suggest going together in the future!).

We're not going to have much opportunity to be together this next week. She's got a dance she's going to tomorrow, and next weekend she's going out of town.

However, I did put together something today that I think will earn me a few points. Next Wednesday is her 8th anniversary being alcohol-free, and I ordered an "upgraded" medallion that arrived today. But even better, I ran into a woman I know who, with her mother, runs a custom gift basket business. So I ordered a basket of imported foods and goodies to be delivered to her house next Wednesday. Just a simple, "Sincere congratulations, warmly, Fred" card attached. Since she's a foodie and I specified her favorite countries, I think the basket will have some super-delicious items she'll like. Good move, do you think?

I guess we'll see how Sunday and the dance lesson turns out.

Yes. Good move.

Very good choice, Fred!

Very Impressive Fred. I'm certain she'll like the basket.
I'm so glad you're enjoying the pursuit of this dear dancing heart.
opt

Pursuit is right! It almost feels like work at times!

My last relationship just seemed to "happen." There wasn't a need to pursue at the time.

Of course, look how that turned out...

No, this isn't a SNL skit. It's just me popping in to apprise everyone of the latest.

I went dancing today. It was the first time I've done any sort of "formal" dancing since I was in elementary school. Do you folks have any idea how hard the waltz really is???

Ballroom lady was NOT there. I was kind of surprised at this, but in retrospect, I'm glad she wasn't. I'm going to need a lot of practice and more lessons before I don't look like a complete fool on the dance floor.

On the other hand, this is not about her, it's about me. And I have to say there were some terrific people there! They were helpful, accommodating and very gentle with a newbie!

I'm not quite sure how I'm going to broach this will BL the next time I speak with her. I guess I'll think of a way. I guess I'm wondering if she stayed away on purpose after I told her I was interested in going, or if something else came up.

On a side note, I'm not sure what's up with the way I've been feeling the last week or so. It's almost as if my interest level has dropped a bit. Not sure why, and I'm not complaining, per se, but somehow this past week has sort of felt like "passing time."

I hope everyone else is doing well.

I agree Fred. Learning the waltz was hard for me too. I've since forgotten how. I do remember I had a great time learning to do it back then though. Good times. I was also surprised at just how much of a workout it can be.



Fred, do you think it's a possibility you feel this way because BL is not exactly..... persuing you? I'm noticing that you're making all the moves, and she's following, which is good to a point. But I don't see her "reciprocating" the desire to initiate much.

I could be totally off base, not realizing if she has or has not been initiating. I just haven't read much about it from you if she has.

No, MyJourney, you're right -- there hasn't been much reciprocating on her part. It's true, most of the heavy lifting has been my doing. I think you've hit on something!

Much of my approach has been in trying to be balanced -- not pushy -- not calling too frequently or being too overt.

The gift basket is a done deal, so we'll see how she reacts to that. I had thought of calling her this evening, but since I'll probably see her tomorrow evening, I think I'll just wait and chat with her then, and tell her of my dance experience.

She's told me that her work is keeping her quite busy (she's working tomorrow, even though it's a holiday), so maybe her mind is occupied elsewhere.

One thing that keeps tickling away at the back of my mind is that she seems to have a full life, and that another relationship isn't on her front burner, so to speak.

I know you have, and it's been quite lovely to see this. It's a healthy path you're on.



I wonder what she is looking for in a relationship.

Although I believe she has acted respectfully and interested towards you, her lack of reciprocity does give me pause. I think you may want, and deserve more. I want you to feel desired by the woman you date.

Thank you MyJourney. I appreciate the sentiment.

Does it make sense for me to say that what I'd really like is something (someone) real?

Absolutely. And in order to attract that, you need to be real with the women you date. Like attracts like. Be open and honest about who you are, and what you want.

In order to do that, you have to envision what you really, really want. Once you do that, you'll be surprised at how things move in that direction.

Then again Fred - your handsomeness might be scaring her away!

This relationship is too new for too much conjecture. You never know she might have been sick but a call would have been nice I guess.

This is fun though isn't it? The newness of a relationship. Ahhh!

I'm having almost as much fun dating my wife again after 18 yrs!

Have fun dancing! I wish I had the guts to go learn a waltz!

Ummm, no.

Now I'm feeling guilty for not having called.


That's really good to hear, Powerbane. Truly!

You know, I almost feel like I'm completing some sort of 'bucket list.' Without the dying, of course (I hope!).

ITA With MJ here. However, I don't have much pause. The triumph with BR girl was to get over the hump of asking women out. You have slain that dragon. And now you have also had a very nice re-introduction to the process of letting someone know you would like to spend some time with them and get to know them; to see if there's chemistry or reason to continue. I think you're starting to see there is success at all turns; just depends on how you look at the situation. Not giving up on the dancer, but you now have a confidence that opens your options - a very desirable trait.

Dance on, Fred!

Opt

Thank you, opt. That was -very- helpful.

The old "forest for the trees," and I fell for it! Why not? I -created- it!

I had dinner with my DD29 this evening (she's having a bit of a relationship crisis of her own) and she basically advised me to "give up" on BR girl (she was a bit confused about the brownies, however). I replied that having dinner certainly kept me away from the meeting tonight. No calls or emails from BR girl wondering about my absence when I got home.

I still have the gift basket arriving Wednesday, so I'm not giving up, yet. But I think it's become clear that this isn't relationship potential.

Sorry, I strayed from the original thought: the triumph, as you so eloquently put it, was in the asking and pursuing. Thanks for putting this into its proper perspective!

Congratulations, Fred! I think you've had a real breakthrough here!

From your descriptions, I have had the feeling that this woman is just not all that enthusiastic about you. I even think that she WISHES she were more attracted because you are a very nice guy, but I don't think the spark is there.

I know that tomorrow is a big deal for her, being her 8th anniversary. But, shortly after that you need to tell her that it's been great fun, you hope you can always be friends, but that you're moving on in the dating department.

I guess that's the proper way to do these things. Of course, I haven't had a date in 27 years, so I'm not really sure.

Not to disagree with Kirb, but a different perspective on BR lady. I think she's simply not into Dating (like us here...). She's a little more casual about it. So why not leave her on the list of people to go out with from time to time when she's available? You're not going exclusive anyway at this point right?

Also, I think I get the forest for the trees comment above fred. Btdt. In retrospect its so easy to get really excited (overly so) about the first one or two that accept an invitation to go out. Its a big anxiety reliever and you get a lot of seratonon from it. [Remember my Halloween girl~ I was head over heals after two dates and sshe was ALL WRONG for me, lol]. Not that I'm some dating expert, just saying...

Have fun man.

Opt

Both people need to show fairly similar level of interest (expressed by desire to see each other, initiating communication, etc). Otherwise one person becomes the pursuer, and the other the distancer. Whether caused by distancer's lack of interest in the pursuer, or lack of interest in dating in general, or whatever - the result is the same. I believe that pursuer/distancer relationships are inherently flawed.

Over the years I developed a fairly short fuse for pursuing anyone who did not express interest in me. Life is too short and too full of women who are interested in you to pursue those who aren't.

In your case Fred, I'd be starting to look for the off-ramp . Maybe that will change the dynamic, you never know. One thing I know for sure, the more you pursue, the more she'll distance, which is a death spiral.

AGG

Thanks, opt. This has been my train of thought, too. There's no reason in my mind to simply shut the door because there hasn't been any progress on my terms and my timeline!

She hasn't said there isn't any interest, but she's not shown any sign of wanting to move further or faster. So why not see if there are times and events we'd like to enjoy together?

Yeah, wow, I DO remember Halloween girl. LOL! I remember thinking how fast things had gone. And then -poof!- it seemed to disappear. I guess it just shows we each reach our moments of "success" in different ways.

You and Kirby and the others have all been right, and all been valuable allies and advisors in this "re-new" journey. Thanks!

Good stuff, AGG. I seem to be on the receiving end of a lot of good stuff lately. And I'm lovin' it!!!

I'm truly grateful for people like you, who offer the hand of friendship and support to a virtual unknown!

I tend to lean towards Opts viewpoint too.

Had similar thoughts that you seemed to be putting a lot more into it than she is, Fred. Her txt to you seemed very curt (TY, etc).

However what you describe reminds me so much of my own recent dating experience (from a woman's perspective).

I went out with a guy a time or two. Very nice guy. Attractive. We had fun. Good conversation, similar interests, etc. He kept pursuing me, however I did not reciprocate. Nothing to do with him, but I was simply interested in somebody else.

Bingo! BTDT, on the receiving end. This is what I call a dating hazard, someone whose heart is elsewhere nonetheless going out on dates, why I do not know . That is why I would never pursue someone who did not reciprocate the interest.

AGG

I agree with much of what's been said. She may not be interested in a LTR, or she may be busy, or perhaps there's no spark for her. However, she showed enough interest to go out with you and to make special brownies for you so it's not like she doesn't like you or anything. I'd simply back off and maybe touch base once in a while and see if a friendship ensues. Who knows, you might both make great dinner/dancing partners on occasion and enjoy it! If all that results is a friendship, what's wrong with that? I have a friend named Fred that went through a similar situation and now he occasionally goes to a movie or dinner with his friend, both knowing it's not "going anywhere" but both okay with that.

ITA with what everyone has written. At this point, there isn't enough ROI (return of interest) for me to consider spending a lot more time and energy on pursuing her.

I am already locked in for the gift basket, and my wish is to take a chip to her tomorrow evening, but after that I think it's more like, "I'll see you around when something I think you might be interested in doing with me" pops up.

A short time ago, as I was picking up my Chinese food carry-out and coming home, I was re-thinking opt's observation of the "triumph" and "success" of asking someone out.

When I went to the dance/lesson Sunday, it was quite heartening to see how easy it is to go up to a woman and ask her to dance. Hey, that's what we're all there for, isn't it?

Fred,

look at it as great experience. the more you get the better you will be able to know when the person is a better match.

I will say that one point i have noticed is that above 50, many people have set lives, and have given up on finding someone, unless they fall in their lap. So when someone does fall into their lap, they are unprepared and don't quite know how to handle this accidental intrusion.

i had a date three weekends ago, met a woman at 6PM, we stayed until 11 PM. Two weekends ago, i met her at her house at 8 AM, we skied all day, went back to her house, made a fire, had champagne and cheese and crackers, spent an hour in the hottubwatching the stars, and then i went home. . .

She is in HR, and hires people all the time, and i was subjected to 13 hours of questioning, as she didn't shut up the whole time, and I hit a big nerve with her accidently, which meant that there were skeletons in her closet that she is really afraid of. . .

she is NOT someone with whom i would have a long term relationship, we know each other pretty well, and could have fun together, but most older people dating are very impatient, and think that the snap decisions after two dates are perfect.

My suggestion is to join a couple of meetups, meetup.com, and meet women without the dating cover, just going to have fun, and meet people with no outcome expectation. . .

no spouse hunting, . .

its all numbers. . .

WIFTTy, it's people like you and the assembled "crowd" who have gathered around that make me glad I started this thread.

WxW was "dropped in my lap," and after having been single for 11 years, it was like a gift from God. Little did I know that she was reading from her own script (the one that is described in the DSM-IV under the heading Borderline Personality Disorder).

Needless to say, the ensuing meltdown shook me to my core. And, as a man in his late 50s, I am much like you describe.

So is Ballroom Lady, I think. Had she not led a 12 week series and opened up a little about herself, I think I probably would have done little more than glance at her approvingly across the room. She's very quiet in a room full of people. By herself though, she's quite an interesting, capable and complex woman. But she is also 50+, and as you have observed, is pretty set in her ways...

With every passing day I grow in knowledge, wisdom and experience. Thanks to people like you!

So are you AGAINST the snap decision after two dates? Or is that only if it is a 'no'.

I wouldn't think people in their 40s and 50s would need 'numbers' to find a mate...

oh wait...you aren't spouse hunting. I'm confused.

And I think I sound snarky but really don't FEEL snarky. Just confused.

It's been a couple weeks, and I'm still in the middle of catching up on your thread (so happy you're getting pleasant dating experience!) but I just had to respond to this...


I find this interesting because I've been told over and over again NOT to call/text/email the guy, but let him call you.

I'm a novice though...

Ok, well, I've caught up on your thread, Fred, and it's interesting to see this from a guy's point of view. I don't know enough about modern dating to really offer an opinion on how Ms Dancer is feeling, but I know that it's interesting to see all this from the guy's point of view.

The (admittedly few) relationships I've had since becoming single all seemed to deteriorate when I began to show more interest in the guy and the advice I continually get from both other women and the plethora of dating books is to let the man do the pursuing, do the planning, pay the way.

Of course, I also have some issues regarding guys that I need to work out and totally own that my issues may be just as much the cause as my attempts to call/do for the guy.

I shall continue to follow your thread not only to selfishly take notes for my own dating experiences, but also celebrate your success.  I�m genuinely happy for you

DTC

Hi Daisy, thanks for your comments. It's nice to hear from someone who came to MB at roughly the same time!

I will likely post an update later tonight. By now, Ms. Dancer should have come home from work and found the gift basket. I haven't heard from her, so I don't really know. I'll be in her neighborhood in a short while, and I plan to call her and ask her if I can stop by for a moment. I have a chip I want to give her. I don't want to come into her house, I just want to give her the chip.

Should I just get her voice mail, I'll just go by and leave it inside her storm door.

So stay tuned...

Living Vicariously through you==CP

So happy to be a source of amusement.

...which is a pretty normal condition for me these days!

This evening I gave Ms. Dancer a call and got her voice mail. I left a message saying I just wanted to stop by for a moment; that I had something for her. If she was there and just not at the phone, to please call me back. No reply.

So I swung by her house. The lights were off and her car was gone. So I left the envelope with her chip and a congratulations card and headed home. No sign of the gift basket.

I just got home a few minutes ago and was settling in when I heard my phone announce the arrival of a text message. Thinking it was DD29, I picked it up, but it was from Ms. Dancer. It said

XXX, XX (disguised to protect the innocent) is about four hours from here. I knew she was going out of town to another city (not XXX) this weekend, but I thought not until Thursday or Friday.

I sent a text back wishing her a happy anniversary and that I thought she was going to city YYY.

Just now she replied

So I wished her a good rest, a safe drive and an enjoyable trip. I then said after she got back I'd tell her about my dance experience.

Now...

Did she get the basket?

Why send me a text announcing her arrival at her halfway point?

Am I completely on another planet, or am I right to be confused?

You're over-analyzing, I can see the smoke from here . I'd just sit back, read a good book, watch a good film, ask some cute girl out on a date, and don't worry your head about Ms. Dancer for the next few days. Let her make a move (or not). There's always the Church Lady, isn't there? (I can't keep track of all your women, Fred ).

AGG

I'm also confused about the half way point text.

I'm thinking she would have mentioned the basket if she received it.

Can you call to see how it was delivered? Maybe someone signed for it?

LOL....the Fredinator!



100% agree!

Lol, I agree

PS I like this in yur sig line.--

You don't have a soul. You are a soul. You have a body.
~ C. S. Lewis

Smily,

I am not quick to decide, i prefer to try out a few different dating experiences. But after 18 hours in two days, i have a pretty good idea of someone who talks non stop for 13 hours, either about themselves and their past conquests or interviewing me for the job.

Plus, there are signs to watch for which start to tell if the person likes you for money/status, or for you.

I am not spouse hunting, nor do i subscribe to it. I would prefer to date someone for several months to get to know them, and then decide. But in today's society, some older types think they can decide in the first hour. . .

and many of them are still looking,

for me, fred has too many gifts, like a bribe, although i know its a bit of southern culture, i wouldn't trust someone who brought me anything materialistic. Not what the relationship is about. ..

but that's just me. .

later

You're right. And I have every intention of doing as you suggest (well, maybe not ask some cute girl out - unless there's one you know of...). I was quite caught by surprise by her text message.

Of course, I didn't know she was leaving on her trip today, either.

Oh well, my original plan was to wait until Monday, which is the first time I'll have a chance to see her. I'll stick to that plan...

The woman who owns the company who makes them will be at the lunch I'm going to tomorrow. That's when I have to pay for it, so I'll find out then.

Really? Wow. I'll have to think on that a bit.

I've always felt that a gentlemen should always give a lady something small -- especially during the courtship stage.

I believe in being a gentleman. I'm a door-holdin', chair-pullin', hat-removin', bow-and-curtsy type of southern gent.

But you think I might be overdoing it? That it might seem like a bribe? I'd never thought of that.

Hmmm.

Lewis' words. My colors (and I'm still working on them!).

I agree with you Fred, she's a bit confusing.

I think at this point you've made some really nice gestures toward her, but it's now time to hold off for a while and let her give you the next cue that she's interested in you and wants to proceed. The ball's in her court.

Let her work a little bit for it!! We women like that (if we're interested) and don't tend to value something that comes too easily!!

EXCELLENT ADVICE, Sidney! Especially since it's exactly what I wanted to hear.

Yes, I've decided to back away a little and let her make the next move.

Which is why I think I was really surprised by her text message last night.

(Still no word on whether she got the basket or not. But I did learn that it should have arrived EITHER Tuesday or Wednesday, which suggests that she should have).

Don't worry, Fred. I'm a gift giver too, and my motivation isn't to bribe or manipulate. I'm just...a giver - and receive a huge amount of joy from it.

I agree that I don't think it is much to worry about.....it is southern I think....but just be sure not to be spending a ton of money on EVERY gift, OR to be buying a gift at every meeting.

Be thoughtful...you don't want to appear you are trying to impress her with money. (and you don't want that kind of woman)

Not to worry. I haven't had a regular paycheck in 10 months, and my savings are rather depleted.

I'm waiting for

• A refund from Uncle Sam, and
• The first sale from our pipeline to close.

(And just as I'm writing this an email came in strongly hinting that a deal might close via credit card in a day or two!).

your motivation is yours, but your actions also have interpretations by others. . . its the interpretation of your act of which I am discussing.

i would never bring a gift to a date, especially if i was just trying to get to know the person. but then i am from the north, and an atheist, or nihilist, whichever way you want to interpret.

wiftty. . .

Interesting, WIFTTy. So some people (women) might see the presentation of token gifts as an attempt at 'bribery?' I would never have given that a thought!

I must say that an endless stream of gifts was not in my plan, but I thought a spray of flowers, a Packers Balloon and such were more ice-breakers than anything else. Also, I see them as a gesture of kindness and peace. Something that says, I want you to see me not as an enemy or adversary...

IMO trying to manage the perceptions of others is a mistake, and starts you down the path of subtle manipulation.

The only person you can control is you, and if you've examined yourself and your reasons for giving, that's really all you can do.

I was just reading Pepperband's thread about buyers, renters and freeloaders, and the only concern I would have about your tendency (or mine) to give would be if it was running amuck and not being balanced by your taker.

You know Fred I was just thinking that with all the ladies on this site one would think they would be able to help us fellas by starting a post like "How to Understand Women (for dummies)" Perhaps even a book might be appropriate.

BCboy,

You know, all the women in my life (mother, daughter, STBXW, friends, co-workers, etc) are all so dang different I wonder if there's any commonality to write about! :-)

Travis

yes, but in controlling you, you can take into account how you will be perceived, regardless of your intent. not all management of perceptions is manipulation for the bad, some will be the absence of manipulation for the bad. . .

its 1/2 about the encoding and 1/2 about the decoding of any action, gesture or message.

wiftty

This has a lot of truth in it. It reminds me of how its the perception of validity also as the strongest factor is allmost anything sold, say an idea or philosphy. The perception of authority also.

It all comes down to our perception of truth, and our belief of where the authority comes from to live a full life. JMHO

Lol. Didn't they say Freud died with that question still unanswered.."What do women want?"

My Dad had an answer to that question when he was asked what he wanred. He said with a smile, "The whole world, with a fence around it!"

I think its human nature to want more, even though we have a lot, we still want more. Not to rule out also, that most people expect that you want more, and go after it, and they call that being responsible, if you perscribe to thier aspirations.

I like to think on that scripture..

1 Timothy 6:5-7 (King James Version)

5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

6 But godliness with contentment is great gain.

7 For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out.

Well folks, I know you've all been waiting breathlessly for the latest installment of Fred's little sitcom, so wait no more...

Just when I had begun to think Ballroom Gal had either decided to stay out of town (or had somehow fallen into a very deep ditch), I got an email from her today.

She had gotten back from her trip Monday night (turning what I thought was a Friday-through-Sunday trip into a Wednesday-through-Monday trip), had developed a sinus infection and was very tired.

The gift basket, card and chip were there waiting for her (I don't know how the basket showed up -- it wasn't there when I dropped off the card last Wednesday night). Her words in the email said

Because of the discussion we've had here and in other recent threads, in my reply to her I wrote

I added a request that she tell me if I say or do anything that she finds "off-putting."

So, right or wrong, I put it out on the table for her. I'm not in the mood for guessing, and I'm too old for game-playing. My sense is that she was a bit overwhelmed by my gesture, and not necessarily in a good way.

This has also been a good opportunity for a little self-examination, too. What I wrote is the truth: I do think I'm more a giver than a taker. Not to say that there isn't a taker present, it's just like so many other things in my life -- I need to get them in balance!

AFGO.

Ah, very good Grasshopper.

Like!

I think you've done well, Fred. I believe she was made uncomfortable by the gift, and your message to her should have alleviated that a bit. AND, it sounds like you've have a major new insight into who YOU are, which is wonderful. Good job!

I think it's an MB concept (or at least an acknowledgement) that when we first meet someone the giver tends to take control. If you really like the person, same thing - giver is in command. Romantic threshold reached: same thing. [this could also be part of the infatuation stage]

Not much balance there.

Does something then happen to make the taker rear it's ugly head?

Or is the "balance" reached by accepting the actions of your dating counterpart's Giver?

Maybe someone more expert at MB philosophy can try to explain.

Opt

Fred
I have been following your threads for a while since we are kindred spirits in a way. We are both BPD survivors, what a ride that can be. So as an encouragement to you that there may be "normal" women out there and I hope that the overhang of your previous relationship does not affect your approach too significantly.

I sense you are a nice guy. Any woman worth dating will sense that and respond (I am told there are plenty of bad boys out there and good guys are in short supply) So good luck out there. Be yourself because that is all you need to be.

You're so awesome.

I see the score as 1 "thank you" and 3 "you shouldn't have!"s. So aside from dousing you with cold water, did she suggest anything like another date, or any other sign of interest?

AGG

Actually, there were TWO "thank yous."

"No" to your other two questions.

And that's why I'm pulling back. I responded in an email rather than a phone call. I'm shifting my focus to work, church and my upcoming running events, first.

Touche, I guess I can't count without my calculator ...


Sounds like a plan. Don't forget that there are other fish in the sea other than this one... It's not a "ballroom girl or nothing" proposition .

AGG

You're absolutely right, AGG. And as you and others have pointed out, the real success story here is in overcoming the fear and reluctance to get back into the dating pool.

Which isn't to say that I still don't have some trepidation and (a lot of) questions. But like riding a roller coaster, after the first time it gets a lot easier!

Bravo, seize the day.

You've handled this well, Fred.

I can't imagine getting a wonderful gift basket and not bothering to look through it before sending an e-mail to the giver saying it was too much and they shouldn't have. Really? She sounds ungrateful.

Think it might be time to spread your 'good guy-ness' around to someone more appreciative.

Yeah, she might not be ready to get close to someone, and in my experience, if you try to figure that out, your working to hard.

You ain't gonna "save" this one right fred?

Nope. I only look stupid.

Yeah, and like I allways say. "Hey, I'm not as stupid as I look!"

the gift without know her too well or long enough is throwing off the concept of just meeting a person to get to learn about them . . .

practice with out the gifts. . . just start with buying coffee or the meal. .

wiffty

It's a rainy Sunday evening, so I thought I'd just post an update of sorts. Really a "non-update," as things have gotten deathly quiet on the dating front.

No word from Ballroom Lady since I emailed her on Tuesday. No sign of Church Gal (that makes it what, three weeks in a row?).

This is probably good news, actually. The reason? My business partner and I have launched a new venture. We had an opportunity fall into our lap, and since she wants to diversify (a legal move, to protect some of her assets and future income) we're moving fast to bring a new software product to market. We're hustling to put together a technical specification, have spoken with a contract programming company, are registering our domains and putting all the pieces into place. We are hoping to "go live" around the first of May.

So you can see, the fast track has moved from spending comfortable time with the ladies to getting a new business up and running.

I'll probably be too busy to think about "down time" dating for a while...

Fred, let me be the first to wish you luck in your new venture:
"LUCK!!" :-)
Sounds like a great opportunity and I know you'll make the most of it.

I'm glad your recent dating experiences bore fruit like intorducing possibly some new areas of interest (in the form of BR dancing), and giving you confidence over the longstanding mental block of taking the first step.

Opt

what opt said..

It figures something would happen while MB was offline! Now it's almost old news, and I wonder if I should even post it.

Nah, I'm online already. What the heck?

Yesterday, after returning from a run, I found a coupon offer in my inbox: half off admission tickets to a local museum. It's a voucher, actually -- buy it now and redeem it any time until the end of June.

So I thought to write Ballroom Girl (geez, even I am having a hard time remembering the nicknames of these ladies) and see if she had any interest.

While I was writing my email, an email from her arrived in my inbox! In it, she brought me up to date on last week -- her sinus infection, the dog's eye problem, and the Easter competition she and a couple of her friends participate in. The sense I got from it was a "keeping in touch" email - she hadn't seen me at the meeting and I guess was wondering. Who knows?

Anyway, she hasn't dropped the ball, and maybe playing it cool has made her think about maybe wanting to spend more time together. She didn't say that, so I'm just guessing.

Anyway, that's an update. A little unexpected, I think. But a positive one.

One of Newton's lesser known laws is that the minute you stop pursuing someone who is being a bit distant, they inevitably and instantly show some level of increased interest.

In my experience, in these cases, it is important to not get sucked back into the pursuer role. As I learned numerous times (painfully), the minute you get excited and start getting spun up again, Newton's fourth law kicks in, which is that they resort right back to being distant.

YMMV of course, but I would be very VERY cool to any words from BG (or whatever she is these days). If I saw some action from her (oy, that sounds terrible, I mean if she suggests a date or something, not just tells you about her sinuses) that would be a step up, but even then I'd be very very cautious. Some people like to be pursued because... they like the feeling of being pursued, not because they have an interest in anything other than being pursued .

AGG

ITA, AGG (wow, that's a mouthful of abbreviations, isn't it?).

Which is why I haven't picked up the phone or done anything other than put out there that I have the opportunity to buy discount tickets to a museum (which I may buy -- and take someone else, if that comes to pass!).

There's a lot going on with me on the business front right now, so I'm not spinning my wheels waiting for "date night," if you know what I mean.

Fred,

i have a slightly different take than AGG. BG is just relaying events and happenings, which is a way of keeping in touch. What you need to do is to relay events and happenings in your life.

This is not pursuing, this is just getting to know you type, to decide if the person is worth meeting, with some familiarity. The events and happenings chatter is a way to get to know you, but not necessarily pursuing talk. I carried on an email discussion of events and happenings with someone for many many months, which is different than pursuing talk. . . we have never met, but we could very easily and i would know alot about her.

this type of approach is called the indirect approach where you don't talk about anything serious, but you learn about each other for abit to become familiar before face to face. . .

just reply with events and happenings in your life, and leave it at that. don't even mention meeting right now, just make your emails interesting and fun to read.

good luck

wiftty

the problem with emails is that a human's imagination begins to form an impression of the person, which may not be reality, but will be enough to create a positive impression, and an interest to meet again. . .

wiftty

Doesn't sound to me like wiftty's and NGG's comments are that disparate. I like them both.
I also have been thinking that stuff like this is going to continue to happen Fred - you're going to be pursuing your own pursuits and "whaddya know" someone interesting will show up. When you're ready, but still when you least expect it.

That's just a hunch I have.

opt

wiftty, your suggestion is actually very much in line with my recommended approach . I'm not telling Fred to ignore BG, I'm suggesting that he just respond more or less in kind to her e-mail - she says "blah blah sinus blah dog eyes blah blah", and he should reply "blah blah got a haircut blah blah car needs a tuneup blah blah"...

What I think he should NOT do is reply to her e-mail with any attempt to escalate or to see her. Keeping in touch is perfectly fine, and he will get to know her more. But my take is that when someone wants to see you, they make it more or less obvious, they don't keep talking about their sinuses or dogs.

AGG

I totally agree. In fact I almost said this exact thing to Fred when he posted that he is busy with his business and is giving up on dating for now - I was going to say "and this is exactly when you'll hear from BG", but unfortunately I got distracted and didn't follow through...

AGG

Also good stuff, wiftty. I think this is what I've done in the past couple of emails. I did put out the opportunity to go to a museum, but the voucher(s) can be redeemed at any time over the next three months, so it's not like a definite, must-decide dating choice.

She told me of her latest goings-on, and I told her of mine (upping my running, the new business opportunity, etc.). I am most definitely NOT going to be begging for a date!

Hi Fred,

Just popping in to say that I agree with the others.

I think if you're busy doing what you enjoy doing, eventually a special someone will show up to join you.

Hope your doing well.

Thanks, MJ.

Right now work is making me feel a bit like Pac-Man. I'm provisioning a new website/domain, configuring an existing server, and setting up a lab server in my home office (which is requiring me to rewire a lot of things).

It's a good thing I don't have a life. Well, except for going out running...

Life consist of many things, including the work and running that you're doing.

Indeed it does, MJ. Indeed, it does.

In the "there's no telling how strange things can get" department, I have been sitting here, eating Chinese food and watching an old Jimmy Cagney movie, when my cell phone rang. Wow, 9:00 p.m., who could be calling?

Ballroom Girl.

Really.

We spent the last 40 minutes on the phone, just "getting caught up." I won't bother with the details, because they're not important. I did find it interesting that she chose to call "out of the blue" as she did.

Especially since we didn't make a future date, and didn't try to invade each other's "space" (whatever that means. Heck, I typed it and I'm not even sure what I mean).

The whole thing was pleasant, but not very satisfying, if that's understandable. I'm not sure what the point was...

Oh, I think that good stuff Fred,

I think it says good things about where you are emotionally and that you are guarding your heart as you should.

I think it would be easy to loose prospective on what you have been though and get to attached. Who knows she may be the one but your not going to be in the place to make that judgment until you've recovered, and I would hope that by the time you have recovered you will have kissed more than a couple of girls on the lips just to figure out how its done again.

As bad as a divorce is it does give us the opportunity to find a mate that God has for us. And if we are patient on Him, I would like to think he is going to bless us in an exceptional way!!!!

Maybe the one He has picked out for me not only is hot but is rich as well so I won't have to worry about the EX getting everthing.

I should probably start praying for that one......

Yeah better start, and if you get that please post what you prayed OK?

What are your top 5 needs Fred? Was she meeting any of them? If not, it's probably why it didn't feel satisfying.

Is it possible that you could view ladies you meet simply as "friends", instead of potential mates? My thought process behind that is so that you can have enriching friendships with a variety of females. You can have fun with them, without the pressure of "dates". And then if something more grows from one of those friendships, then all the better.

Alright SC and CP.....if I come on here and say that I want a filthy rich, hot man....I don't want to hear any smack from you. Understand?

And well...the rich part leaves me out of the running, for now...lol...

Wow, this hit me like a wake-up call, MJ! Thanks.

In fact, it got me to thinking. If this generates enough interest, it might be worth its own thread...

Can (or should) an EN be "justified?"

Here's the thinking behind the question: One of my top EN's is Physical Attractiveness. However, I have always struggled with my own self-image. I do not and have not considered myself a handsome man. I do take care of myself - I'm clean, groomed, well attired, fit, etc. - but I know I will never win a male "beauty contest." Yet I have identified PA as one of my top EN's. Is this fair?

Dr. Harley says

(As MelodyLane likes to say: here.)

In my mind, it makes it difficult to seek out someone I find attractive when I don't feel that person will find me attractive in return.

Oh, I know that another's EN's may not be the same as mine - in fact, given what I've learned here, that's more than likely the case. My WxW admitted that I wasn't the best looking man around, but that I was plenty good-looking FOR HER. (Of course, I now have to question everything she ever said to me, so she's probably not the best example, either).

Similarly, I find Affection to be one of my top EN's. I'm a very affectionate person, yet at times I find it hard to accept affection when it's showed to me. Again, using my WxW as an example, it took a lot of trying on her part for me to become comfortable with her being affectionate. Once "in the zone," however, I relished the affection she would show.

So, how does one reconcile the disparity between what one identifies as an EN, and what one sees in himself?

That's awful.

I can't imagine saying that to someone I loved. And comparisons are gross to me anyway, and kind of a pet peeve of mine. It may be normal for a man to find different women attractive, but I really don't want to hear about it. It can be quite hurtful.

I agree. Ugh.

You don't have to. You are looking for someone who can easily meet your top ENs. So if your top three include Physical Attraction, you will find someone who meets that. Her top three could be different .

Of course, some ENs are less easily 'one way' than Physical Attraction.

It is what it is. And now I've learned she is what she is. It makes no difference.

I know who I am. I'm a caring, kind, intelligent man. I have never been, nor will I ever be, movie star handsome. If a woman is only interested in looks, then she's not going to be the one for me, anyway.

It is I who need to re-evaluate my top EN and put them into proper perspective. WxW was a very attractive woman, whose looks hid the darker, disordered side of her. She managed to meet my EN's better than even I was aware. Had I known about Marriage Builders, I might have been better aware of her manipulative ways.

So I've learned...

As I've said before, I only LOOK stupid.

My mom had an expression, 'you don't have ugly friends.' I've pondered that many a times....and I find it true. Do any of us think that any of our true friends are ugly? No. Because once you get to know someone and love them they are beautiful to you.

Now sure there is a standard of beauty that media has furthered to a sickening degree. But that standard has no place in real relationships. Reminds me of a friend of mine whose granddaughter was engaged...they were a stunningly attractive couple. I noted that one day to my friend and then said (with a smile), 'too bad that is not worth more.'

Well said. I think my H is the hottest guy on the planet. But he'll probably never be on the cover of People. (and you'll never see me there, either, but H thinks I'm not too bad, myself )

Our culture's standard of attractiveness isn't the yardstick I use.

My dh is a very attractive man....however, he is much MORE attractive to me now than he was the first time I saw him. That is in harmony with my mom's wise words I think....part of the whole ENs thing too. He meets so many of my top needs so well that I find him irrestistable.

Apparently I do the same for him...:) I walked into the room this morning with my robe on, uncombed hair and all that...he grins and says, 'you are so beautiful!'. I find I am having to rewrite the tapes in my mind because I instantly think he is being disingenuous since my XH used another standard of beauty by which to measure. I am slowly beginning to see that it is possible to be loved as much as dh loves me.

I really wish the same for Fred.

Fred, I may have missed this, but do you find BG physically attractive?

I'm sorry I haven't been on much lately, I've had computer issues to deal with and a death in the family...not a great week.

Fred, I cannot imagine being more attracted to anyone than I was to my late husband...or he to me, but it was much more than our "looks". It was love from the inside out. It's as if we saw each other through rose-colored glasses...glasses of love. I pray that for you, for when you find that, it's wonderful, and you are most deserving, you're a wonderful man...stop worrying and start recognizing your deservedness.

This begs a question I've often wondered... I know I'm not a 10. Maybe a 9 ;-) I�m a healthy weight: a little bigger than most but hourglass figure and I�m in very good shape. But I know there are women out there younger, thinner, prettier, and I'm not deceived about that. Still, I want to be with someone finds my natural features beautiful.

But what do you do when the person you are with isn�t a 10 but wants the reassurance they are hot? I ask because the guy I�m getting to know lights my fire like no one I�ve EVER known. He has a great face, amazing smile, and is very good looking. I tell him he�s hot and he�s sexy, but he says he doesn�t understand how I can feel that way about him because he overweight. He�s tall and broad, and I like a �teddy bear� style man, so to me he is just wonderful. Discovering I liked this type of guy surprised me (and my friends) because I�m athletic (marathons, boarding, tri, etc) and both my ex and other guys I�ve dated were all very fit and trim. But I�m also very broad shouldered, and I�ve discovered that I feel more feminine around the �big and tall� guys. I wouldn�t mind if his stomach was a little smaller, but it doesn�t bother me. Unfortunately, I feel awkward because while it doesn�t bother me, I don�t want to lie and say it�s �perfect.� I also don�t want to tell him, "one of the things I love about you is being able to snuggle up into you" because I don�t think he�d take the snuggle factor as a compliment! Snuggling is something I could neither do with my almost-zero-body fat ex husband, nor with most of the guys I�ve dated since.

So what DO you say that still honors and appreciates your partner while not pretending that their less-than-perfect parts don�t exist?
And so as not to be a total thread-jack, here is a thought for Fred:


I admit to a bit of dysfunction in this area, so I�m probably not the one to encourage you in this� but I�ll try anyway� Not every woman wants the movie star look. In fact, when I see a guy who could win the �sexiest man alive� contest, I typically run! I have friends that like certain types. One likes what I call �the slick used car salesman� type. Another likes the �guy next door� type. And for a lot of women, looks don�t equal desire. They can experience a great amount of desire for a man with average looks who treats them like a queen.

Daisy, maybe you should tell your new guy how he makes you FEEL. It must be such a gift to you to feel feminine around him after feeling like you were one of the guys around your ex and the other men you have dated. Tell him that he makes you feel beautiful and feminine. Let him know that you appreciate his eyes and his smile or whatever it is that turns you on about him. Go ahead and tell him that you appreciate the snuggle factor, because your ex was snuggle deficient.

And for Fred (because this IS your thread), I have a story.

At my old church there were two young men who were both single. In my opinion, they were just about equally attractive. I didn't know them very well, so I didn't have much data about their income or personality. After a couple of years they both got married. One of them married a woman that anyone would consider to be REALLY beautiful. I was kinda shocked that he caught someone that attractive. The other one married a woman who was (at least in my opinion) not as physically attractive as her husband.

If I were to assign them numbers (which makes me very uncomfortable), I would say that the guys were both 8s, and the first one's wife was a 10 and the second one's wife was a 6. All of this is to say that different people have different opinions about the importance of physical attractiveness. The 8s, don't always end up with another 8. Even if you think of yourself as a 6, there may well be an 8 out there for you.

Also, there are lots of attractive men out there who are total jerks. As we get older, we women begin to care more and more about personality and less about perfect hair and features and bodies. After age 40 or thereabouts, there WILL be wrinkles and gray hair (or no hair!) so it's all relative anyway.

Yes, I do.

In fact, she caught my eye when I first met her, eight years ago.

But I was newly in a relationship with my now ex-wife. So, because I have morals and boundaries, I stayed far away from her.

After ex-wife bailed, BG was still around. And single. So, I thought to myself...

(Somehow the direction this thread has taken reminds me of that old Confucian saying):

Funny, it is making me think of that song

'If you want to be happy for the rest of your life

Never make a pretty woman your wife

Mary an ugly woman my friend

She'll make you happy to the bitter end.'

Hee hee.

Or as Jerry sienfeld says, like flying in a plane for the free peanuts.

Sorry- late to the party. Just wanted to chime in that one of the things I've always found more or less attractive about a woman is their voice. I consider that part of the overall Physical Attractiveness picture.

opt out.

I really like voices too. Unfortunately, I don't like my own at all. The way others hear me is completely different from the way I hear myself.

Fred, PLEASE take anything your BPD WxW said to you with a grain of salt and consider the source. Part of BPD is an intense fear of abandonment on their part (which is so ironic when they are usually the ones who end up bolting) so they work hard to keep their partner right where they need them to be as far as deflated confidence and low self-esteem. She didn't want you to think anyone else would find you attractive, which would increase the odds that you would never leave her.

Let me assure you that there are plenty of women who, especially if they're right for you, will find you completely irresistable.

And just a reminder- one of the most attractive qualities women find in men is CONFIDENCE. Once you brush up on yours I think you'll be pleasantly surprised to see what happens with your dating life.

Endorse. 'Specially the bolded parts.

Hey you aren't that guy who is now famous on the Radio are you?

Hardly...

It has allways been who is in the frame that a relly feel in love with. My late W was sooo goodlooking when I met her, and she had come from such a bad home-life, that her looks accually were a bad thing for her.

I used to feel bad for very attractive women, because they could never tell what treatment was real, or who was trophy hunting. So I went out of my way to keep things real and distant, even when they showed interest, respecting that they were hit on all the time, and most of it was sleazy.

Untill I shared a common interest that was close to my heart, and sensed similar interests and moral challanges and values, there was never really any desire or attraqction on my part, but once that had happened, looks went out the window and even women who were only average became beuatiful.

With the women my wife and I knew together, it was allways about good relationships and proper behavior, and I allways kept it that way, even if I thought they were attractive.

BTW, What you said about BPD people and intense fear of rejection.....and then the statement that women are attracted to confidance.... BPD women even more so because confidant men are not hiding anything and can be read easily, so this week anyway they are in control, as long as she knows whats on his mind..