Hi, I am 35 years old European male and new to the forum.
My girlfriend of 26 years old �we have been living together for 3.5 years, no kids - cheated on me last week while I was on a businesstrip and she came clean 2 days after although she is maintaining the affair for now.

We both come from happy families and both our parents are living a healthy relationship.
My previous (immature) relationship of 8 years (from my 20th birthday untill 28 years old) failed because my ex had a borderline personality disorder: Moodswings, impulsiveness, tantrums, lack of empathy, mirroring, black & white thinking, threats of suicide etc�
I went in therapy and spend years on a BPD forum for friends & relatives recovering the toxic relationship�

I met my current girlfriend when she was 23. A couple of weeks later we fell in love at a 3-day festival� She moved in a couple of days later as her roommates were moving to other cities. Our relationship has been excellent the first 3 years but has degraded fast the last 6 months. I have an IT-consulting contracting job that can absorb me on an intellectual level and causes me a lot of stress for long periods.
I have found healthy ways to cope with the stress over the years, but it does not involve my girlfriend on weekdays (= reading, playing music etc) although we have our together time almost each day. In the weekends we go out and party for relief, visit friends & relatives, do some stuff in our house keeping.

Since my girlfriend was so young and was suffering from poor self-estimeen, I supported and gently pushed her over the years and watched her bloom into a woman with a steady job, friends & postive outlook on the future with kids. We came close of buying our dreamhouse in februari and were planning to start making babies in 2014.

Things went bad in Spring, my new job required my full attention and I could not get days off at work. Searching houses had to be dropped. Holidays cancelled. We talked and agreed my girlfriend should use her holidays to explore the horizon with friends instead. A bit of space and trust would help her grow out of the self-esteem issues even more, I thought. My girlfriend started partying more and spending more time with friends so I could concentrate on my job & getting rid of the stress.
When summer arrived I got angry with her because she was planning more & more friend & partytime without mutual agreement. My stress became worse, but I did not work it out on her, neither did we have fights. I thought the stress was getting the best of me.

We had some time off last month and my girlfriend insisted I�d get some relief and we go on a party-holiday across Europe together with her friends. We had Australians over and had a good time and used drugs. I was tired of the partying & drugs and told my girlfriend, but she seemed to be angry and flee everytime the subject was touched. My frustration got worse and I kept fleeing to my stress-relief as talk was obviously not possible. I was subconciously waiting for an accident to happen� and it did: last week.
 

One of the Australian boys was admiring my girlfriend and she was loving the attention. She wanted to meet but would not discuss it with me. Any questions would trigger an angry reaction. This went on for a week. The second week she started lying to me, I called her [censored] but she would run away. When I came back from a businesstrip she finally told me she did not see a future for our relationship, I asked her immediately if she has been cheating and she said yes last thursday and started crying.. I immediately said I cannot allow you to stay in this house if you choose to keep seeing this person. We talked friday and it was apparent she had an emotional connection with this Aussie guy (her age) who will be leaving for home within 2 weeks. Her partyfriends are sheltering her and him for the moment.

I immediately blocked my joint-bankaccount card & payments.

We have talked this week on 2 occassions for at least 2 hours each time. We had a very deep emotional connection for the first time in months. I made clear I am going to fight for our relationship because I think we can overcome this. I really filled her lovebucket on those two occassions and she responded immediately.

We met again yesterday afternoon: We connected for 2 hours. She said she cannot possibly live without me. We hugged, kissed. She told me the fantasy is over and they both are starting to feel guilty.

Yesterday evening they took XTC together again and my girl sees a future for them when I spoke her on the phone today!!!!!

This is not the girl I was planning a future with

NEED HELP.

This is not the girl I was planning a future with

But this is exactly the girl she is, so......

Let's summarize this into two separate concepts:

1) The idea of "dating" or "courtship" is best analogized by the idea of a job interview followed by an intership.

2) Your candidate failed the process.

Where you are, unfortuantely, is immaturely hung up on the idea of "sunk cost". ("But we've done so much together already...") What a more worthwhile outlook would entail would be considering the massive outlays of resources (emotional, psychological, possiblt financial) to put this back onto the path you thought you were on.

Consider yourself blessed that her true nature came to the fore before you disastrously uttered those heavy-commitment "I do" words.

Write her off, learn from the heartache, and go find a better candidate.

Cheers!

I know it still hurts, but be thankful you found out before you married her and had children.

Please stay around and read some of Dr. Harley's works.

Start here Preparing for Marriage
Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders

26 year girlfriend? When would you marry?
Half of your life is over.
How do you plan in living your next 35 years?

Stop making poor investments. This is a pattern for you. Instead of finding someone capable of a healthy normal relationship, you keep taking on these fixer-upper projects. Sorry, I'm not sure why you keep taking on projects and trying to fix them.

Dating is a job interview for marriage. When the candidate flunks the interview, it is time to move on. This candidate clearly flunked the interview and is not marriage material.

Hi all,

Thanks for the replies. Maybe I should explain some more: I explicitly mentioned I am European, meaning: young couples do not tend to marry anymore. In the southern European countries marriage is still popular though. The church has been burning the last 15 years under scandals of child-abuse. Fiscal regimes are not interesting to say "I do" in front of an altar.
Divorce-rates are 50% of those who do.
couples < 35 yrs tend to say "We are engaged", throw a party and start planning kids. My best female friends had their first at 29-30.
So, yes I am at the end of the courting phase: Better now than later... True! we were close to actually buying that house.

How do I plan of living the next 35 years?
The same question pops up in my mind now & then.
I was hoping with my current girlfriend & kids actually.

8 years of living with a BPD and 3,5 years with someone who is rapidly declining into addiction... Chances are slim I will ever trust a woman again. Even with therapy.
I have worked my [censored] to the bone the last 10 years.
Have enough money to buy a house without a loan and take a less stressfull job.

Ow yes, you hit the nail right on it's head. Why? I dunno I had a happy childhood, mom & dad love their children & grandchildren. Psychologist thought I was fine.
I am an engineer by trade, it's how my brain works intellectualy.
"Giving" is how my heart works emotionally.
My brain & heart hardly work together at all.
I am the communicative problem-solver. The fix-it-all.
Guilty!

I have had an emotional "fix-project" when I was single and recovering from toxic love 6 years ago. I choose not to invest romanticly or financialy, but helped to put a runnaway girl on tracks in life instead. Fixed her a first job. She passed her first year of college on a scholarship this year and she found her first love. In return I got a young friend who keeps me up to date of all the cool stuff on the internet & can keep up with me when I need to vent about technical work stuff.

I have dated lots of women my age proposed by friends the last year of recovery. But could not emotionally connect to any. Red flags popin'up on every date. Until a young girl of 24 yrs old introduced herself on a crowded party. Yes she was insecure, but not unusual for a girl her age.

She is not an emotional-black hole, she is full of love and is a giver. All my friends & relatives love her. So do I, I can live with the fact she is insecure & quits a lot of things she starts... but not the talking or the emotional bond.
She just stopped talking to me and the whole relationship became passive-aggressive real fast. With the affair as the first real conflict in our relationship resulting in a partner fleeing in an avoidant drugscraze.

I see an insecure girl scared sh*tless for the future she planned for herself, who will come to her senses & commit.
I have failed to understand my emotions and my own needs. I Lost sight of the needs of my girlfriend.

I choose to be committed to her for now because I love her and we had a wonderful 3 year relationship under the same roof together.

Here's hoping American humor translates to European.

A hunting party in Alaska had great success, and when the chartered seaplane landed to take them home, the pilot immediately said that there was too much load with the trophies and meat, etc and some would have to be left behind.

The hunting party guide said, "I tell you, we had just as much load LAST year, and the pilot had the courage to take off with all of it. Of course, he was very brave...."

The current pilot, challenged, then said, "Good enough, load it all up, and we'll give it a shot."

They all piled in, he started the plane at the absolute farthest point of the lake, gunned the motor, and accelerated down the lake, using up all the available room, before ever-so-gently easing back on the stick and having the plane start its ascent......when the laws of flight-physics took over, the plane stalled, and crashed onto the shore.

As they crawled out of the wreckage, the guide clapped the pilot on the back, and said, "Not only are you as brave as the other pilot, but you actually flew us 75 feet (22.9 meters) farther before the crash than last year!"

If you insist on contemplating married life with women who are so "overloaded" with their only problems, you'll crash every time, dude. We'll not be able to help you if you insist you know best.

I do not know for the best, very aware of that! I am here for help after all.
I am open for all input at the moment, but I will put up a fight in accepting. I do appreciate the effort. :-)

Here goes:
I should be giving up on "married" life all together then.
I haven't met a single female that did not appear "overloaded" on first inspection in the last 6 years. In comparison my girlfriend only appeared "heavily loaded" on take-off...

...which comes down to "overloaded" when the plane begins to stall & eventually crashes. True!

Good stuff

You just need to work on your "picker" and yourself.

Did you read this?
Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders

Get the book Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders.

I also live in a culture (French Canada) where marriage is no longer common amongst couples with children (since around the 1970's) - in fact, there is no real distinction between them when speaking (mon/ma conjoint - "conjugal partner" - is used whether married or not). We (women) are not even allowed to change our names (I have a different surname then my husband/children).

"We" started this a decade or so before it became common in Northern Europe - the Trudeau era.

What we are now seeing, as we (the 1960-70's babies) grew up, is that those families have since mostly fallen apart. Career came before family commitment. Single child-only families found it easier to break off and split up with no desire to try and save the family unit.

The tide is starting to change. Marriage is becoming more & more common, families are having more children. People are moving back towards the Catholic tradition. The government is pouring money into subsidized childcare to encourage family units to become larger and stronger. Most of our friends are now getting married and having more kids, unlike their parents.

Just a thought.... our society tried this already. It didn't work out so great in the long-run.

Also - agree about working on your picker. Do understand, that women who are willing to be an honest committed STABLE wife, will expect the same in return. I really doubt that all women in Northern Europe are opposed to being married. Perhaps you are being passed by from ideal candidates because you are not offering them the stability and commitment that they want for their future family/children.

I am a good, honest, loving wife and mother. But if you asked me out on a date and made it clear you had no interest in getting married, only living together and starting a family, then I would not consider another date. And I am someone who lives in a similar shack-up culture as you. So, I'd skip you based on that. Maybe those girls are skipping you for those reasons. You can change this. It is easier than changing "damaged" applicants!

Yes and I understand very well.
We grew to become buyers in the first three years & went back to renters in the last 4 months.

But I must admit I am having a hard time with the sacrifice:
You like the telly, I like a daily sitdown. Let's cook together & watch the telly afterwards. We negotiated.

"You don't like tomatoes, but like french fries."
"I don't like french fries too much, but like tomatoes."
Instead of never eating tomatoes or french fries again.
Lets agree to make something with both tomatoes & french fries
and enjoy it together. Or hey let's never eat tomatoes or french fries again together. It worked for a while.

but than you find your foodplate to becomes less & less healthy & satisfying... You talk about it, come to no agreement and find negotiation becomes impossible. Changes in our environment were "misused" to get out of agreements.

Resulting in resentment & us having dinner at work & only telly together in the evening without a sitdown.

What went wrong here?

She recently admitted she was starting to like tomatoes!

bonjour Alis. Je parle francais (2nd language) aussi, donc le principe des "conjaints" est naturel pour moi.

After reading some of the stuff you all linked -thank you-, I think I am seeing what you are aiming at here Alis. People need a fixed ritual with a set date to "buy into" their relationship.
You can commit while living together every day, but that does not bring you one step closer to a point that says "From now on we are officialy committed to each other forever". You have to actually "buy it" eventually... while I thought the moment you both agree to physicly start making babies or buy that house, is the day you actually commit to someone for life. But that is something personal and will be a different moment in the relationship/courtship every time. It's confusing for a lot of people incl. me.

I was aware of the "the career above family commitment"-culture here and I adapted my life early to make good money first so I could take an easier job once my kids are born (or "the commitment" is made.) Is the work/life-balance sooo much better in America? or in Canada? Careers are killing ppl here. I have a collegue my age working 18h a day and has a family aswell!!!

Am I willing to accept official marriage to be with a suitable partner? Yes, but I am a business-owner so we would have to marry with a pre-nup and a lot of paperwork. That would probably kill the date too... =)

Marriage is a commitment.
There are many who choose to get married.
Europe has not abandoned marriage as an institution.

Indeed, not in some circles.
I could agree to marriage if it were a suitable candidate. But for me personaly it is not a need. I just want stability & commitment and I am willing to give that without a ring too.
Yes, I am starting to see why a ceremony could be important...

Did you read all of Dr. Harley's articles on preparing for marriage?

What did you think?

I'm from the UK and am a big believer in marriage . . . now. I see every day the mess that ensues when non married people slide into buying houses or having children together.

I used to think that marriage was an old fashioned concept. Now, with 3 adult children I see that it is the essential glue of relationships. I see where my not understanding that led to the independent behaviour on my part that contributed to the demise of my marriage.

Happily, like Alis I see the next generation moving back to marriage. My 22 year old has been in a committed relationship since she was 18 but they would not dream of moving in together. Even whilst they attended the same university and lived off campus, they did not shack up.

I read them all once, but need to read them a second (and probably a third time) to give an opinion on it.

I agree to all basic things like Policy of joint agreement.
Which I practise subconsiously but not as radical.

and the policy of honesty,
which I failed on the emotional honesty part when I got hurt because we stopped agreeing after a couple of years & we retracted to independent behaviour because my needs were not met.

We could have bought the house together and agreed to it as a permanent commitment or we could have signed a marriage contract at the city-council, but that would have ultimatly lead me to this place just the same imho.
But I guess that's a cultural thing and the numbers speak against me...
Noted: won't be shacking up ever again unless married.

Exactly. You've understood the concept perfectly. Good job!

Met some of my girlfriends friends today, who hugged me & do not understand what is happening & share the opinion my gf is gonna crash BIG TIME & needs help!

She cheated, I draw a boundary, it was exposed to relatives within the week. Now she is rollercoastering between guilt & the thought of fleeing to Australia with her new guy to justify the cheating. (She gets homesick after 2 weeks abroad)
And I am not getting on the rollercoaster. One up & down & up was enough for me. Got sick.

How can you possibly get carried away by instant-feelings.
It's like changing your life because you saw a blockbuster movie. I feel sorry for her but feel guily myself because I cannot help her & most probably enabled her behaviour subconsiously.

There must be a way to help her stop the fleeing & face the facts?

And NO, we are not getting back together; but I want to help.

The best way to help is to step away and heal yourself and let her face the consequences of her choices.

That is the best way to help her.

Yeah thought so.

Asked her friends to be there when she crashes.

STOP trying to change people

Thank you all for replying & to help out a heartbroken man willing to learn.

Alis, I think that is an interessting discussion:
I believe it is impossible to CHANGE people especially the ones you love. Always have. I believe people can only willingly change their own BEHAVIOUR (and they hardly ever do, incl. myself)

Thinking about it: the Joint Agreement Policy + marriage is actually a powerfull way to FORCE people to change their own behaviour subconsiously and to grow closer to each other until the point of becoming enmeshed. If I read the stories of people who get divorced after 20 years of marriage here, some have to start searching what happened to the other 50% of their personality.

This is a very important and powerful distinction it took me a long time to learn. You CANNOT change someone else; you can however change yourself. People do change for the better but lasting, honest change is self motivated, not externally forced.

Right and what we are actually changing is our habits.


POJA is the most powerful tool we have for preventing independent behaviour. IB slides into disrespect in a heartbeat. It needs to be combined with radical honesty or it does not work. Yes, becoming enmeshed is the idea. Marriage is about co-dependency where there is not 'mine' and 'yours' but only 'ours'. This is not just about things, it is about time too.

It is also important to clarify that MB has never actually been about "changing" a person, in regards to dealing with affairs/infidelity. The betrayed person sets their BOUNDARIES and the wayward spouse is given the choice to either accept and meet those boundaries/commitments or the betrayed spouse will separate/divorce. These are guidelines even by those who have long-term marriages and children, let alone a situation that can be easily walked away from (such as a dating relationship without children).

Gerold (Salut!), your consistent habit is to take on girls with issues and try and fix them. This has never worked! As you browse the surviving an affair section, you may find many of those long-term marriages to START like your relationship with these girls. People who should not have married/bothered in the first place, did it anyways, and suffer the consequences, 1,5,20+ years down the line.

This is the only thing you can control & change - and that is to make better choices.

wow, that is really really scary for someone who has been in an abusive-relationship and was completely enmeshed with it. I needed to learn to "owe" my own feelings again!!!

I begin to understand how fragile a relationship actually is & how robust it should be if it is to survive changing environments and the test of time. Enmeshment seems like the only option.

That means choosing a partner that is very much like you and likes the same things you like, hates the things you hate and is STABLE too. You have to have compatible jobs because sacrifice is a terrible start for a marriage...

That means the gene-pool got awfully small!!!

I cannot possibly keep up this high-paced carreer if I am ever going to be enmeshed with somebody again... Impossible, it absorbes me too much.

???

You do not have to find a partner like you. You must have similar cultural values and energy levels, in other words be compatible. POJA takes care of the rest and in any case the things we like and dislike change over the years.

For instance I hate to cook and get really resentful if I am stuck in the kitchen. But I would hate even more to be married to someone that enjoys cooking because I am not fundamentally interested in food. On the other hand, everyone has to eat. Our solution is for both of us to be in the kitchen at the same time happily chatting away and doing stuff together.

My girlfriend really did not like to many vegetables & I love to cook. =) We had a lot of discussions and were forced to make agreements. She cut the veggies & I prepared the dinner while we talked & planned the rest of the evening. Even vegetable choices had to be discussed. It was realy realy hard.

Someone I know once mentioned she could never be together with someone who did not like food as much. I found that a strange statement back then.

Now I start to see why: because it is a daily trade-off that should lead to a healthy dinner and a fantastic evening and could be a potential minefield for a relation.

Yes, in hindsight the cooking/agreement thing was a huge test for our relationship...but it eroded.
I cannot possibly grap how one can have a courtship, not shack up and actually find out it is quite impossible to maintain agreements on stuff that seems incompatible?

???

Dating! That's how you explore compatibility. MB also includes ways to learn how to become compatible.

Gerold, I lived with my H before marriage. I was pregnant when we got married. Not everyone here has done things the "traditional" way, but after implementing MB, we have found how it would have been more positive the other way.

I did the same as alis (pregnancy included), and like her I see no benefit to having done that. In fact, I strongly regret not having had my H make a declaration that he wanted to marry me and go all in, without my settling for less-than-best by living with him first. When I got pregnant he seemed delighted and we mutually agreed that it would be best to marry before the baby arrived, but that isn't the kind of marriage I want for that baby, my now 23 year-old daughter. If a man wants to hedge his bets and see if she's good enough first, and wants to live with her and get free milk without the commitment of buying the cow, I hope I'd be able to persuade her that she's better than that. She's a very special and beautiful cow and any man who doesn't want to go all in and endow her with all of himself would not be good enough for her.

You find out BEFORE you live together. All you need to do is marry someone who agrees with the policy of joint agreement. Shacking up breeds a renters mentality that poisons the marriage. It is like the difference between renting a house and buying a house. Which one would you treat with care? A buyer does what it takes to fix the house, a renter abandons the house when there is trouble.

When shacking up, when one partner messes up, the TEST is over. When married, when one partner messes up, they both focus on fixing the problem.

Freeloader is unwilling to put much effort into the care of his or her partner in a romantic relationship. He or she does only what comes naturally and expects only what comes naturally. It's like a person who tries to live in a house without paying rent or doing anything to improve it unless the person is in the mood to do so.

Renter is willing to provide limited care as long as it's in his or her best interest. The romantic relationship is considered tentative, so the care is viewed as short-term. It's like a person who rents a house and is willing to stay as long as the conditions seem fair, or until he or she finds something better. The person is willing to pay reasonable rent and keep the house clean but is not willing to make repairs or improvements. It's the landlord's job to keep the place attractive enough for the renter to stay and continue paying rent.

Buyer is willing to demonstrate an extraordinary sense of care by making permanent changes in his or her own behavior and lifestyle to make the romantic relationship mutually fulfilling. Solutions to problems are long-term solutions and must work well for both partners because the romantic relationship is viewed as exclusive and permanent. It's like a person who buys a house for life with a willingness to make repairs that accommodate changing needs, painting the walls, installing new carper, replacing the roof, and even doing some remodeling so that it can be comfortable and useful.

A MUST READ for any person who shacks:


Living Together Before Marriage: Compatibility Test or Curse?
by Willard F. Harley, Jr., Ph.D.

I wish we had an awesome childfree (and child-Worry-free, since even if you leave them behind, you worry) honeymoon in Mexico like my friends. We had a Seattle dinner 1-night cruise Wouldn't do it the same again, lol. We need to wait quite some time before a nice childfree "proper" honeymoon.

We had a day-trip to France using a coupon out of the newspaper! And in fact, it took place before the wedding! We had to change the wedding date because our witnesses couldn't make the original, but we'd already booked the ferry crossing, so that took place the weekend before the wedding.

It was great fun. I enjoyed my "honeymoon" and my wedding day was my happiest day ever, but I wish I'd made myself special enough for my H to want me with total commitment and no strings. You can image how I felt when the affair broke and would not die, and how I felt then that he'd married me because I was pregnant. He was quite shocked when I told him I felt that he had never wanted the kids and he insists it wasn't so, but I can never believe now that that he wanted me with all his heart, no matter what he says now in recovery.

I know that lots if people on this site were actually virgins on the wedding night and that this did not stop an affair, but that does not mean I can brush off the bad start that we got off to by living together. It contributed to a mindset that our marriage wasn't special, in my view. At least, it was special to me, but clearly it wasn't to my H.

I don't think about this much now, because recovery is going well. I just want to warn the thread starter that attitude before marriage undoubtedly persist into the marriage. Living together is a wholly bad practice.

I know exactly what you mean. We had never lived together before marriage and I CLUNG to that when I found out about the A. I just kept remembering how keen he was to get married, that we had no ties on the day, that he could have called it off but that he was dying to marry me.

I never cared at all about our living status before marriage before finding out about the A. In fact we had planned to live together before the wedding, but the house deal fell through.

I think if the engagement ring shows up after a baby, or even after a joint account or after a couple of shared bills it isnt as special. You wonder, either then or later, do they really want you, or do they just not want to bother moving out.

Glad you enjoyed it! Although I would enjoy France more than Seattle I wish I could have had the champagne, but I had a rather big bump at the time. Eek! How classy :P

I discovered I turn into a slob with fleeing behaviour if I do not get my emotional needs met. My mind seems to compensate with asking for more physical needs... I just found that out the last couple of days and I have been living with "me" for 35yrs. I do not believe a girl could figure that out in a courtship... she is gonna find that one out in a marriage or by living together at least. And no girlfriend I lived with really made that connection either.

I am terrible.

But I would have taken you both to Bali or Thailand at least. ;-)
Thanks for helping.

That's it exactly - and think how much easier it is not to bother moving out with a baby on the way. And when the breakdown or affair comes along, you will never be able to say with confidence that he or she really wanted to be with you.

alis, I hope you manage to see France one day. It really is the prettiest country. We crossed the channel to Le Touquet, which is a beautiful, up-market resort. We had a lovely day on the beach then went for a delicious french meal, and then called in at a supermarket to stock up on cheap champagne for after the baby was born. It was a lovely day.

I was wondering how to adapt with my job...
It's obviously absorbing me too much to combine with "a marriage"...

Sacrificing jobs in a relation is not done, because it is a renters mentality and will bite you in the [censored] someday?????

How do people in a marriage deal with that kind of stuff? in agreement????

One thing at a time. You will be amazed how problems find a way to solve themselves. When the right person comes along, you will POJA your time together to make things work.


Dr Harley is very emphatic about the fact that there must be no sacrifice. No matter how large or small, every sacrifice demands a payback and that is its poisoned payload.



Each situation is different but yes, in enthusiastic agreement. Always.

It is important to understand what sacrifice means, though. It does not mean hanging onto a job that harms your marriage. A job should complement the marriage or it should be eliminated. It means not doing things that make either of you unhappy. For example, if she wants to go to the zoo and he hates the zoo he would be sacrificing if he went. And it would cause resentment. However, if he has a traveling job that harms his marriage, that is not considered sacrifice for him to give up that job for a non traveling job. The idea is to find a non traveling job that he enjoys that will complement his marriage. Yes, he might be resentful at first, but only as long as it takes to find a suitable alternative that complements the marriage.

You don't hang onto a career that is harmful to the marriage because you think it is sacrifice to quit it. That is not what Harley means when he says sacrifice. Anything that is bad for the marriage is OUT.

But that is a learning proces no?
As long as only one of the partners perceives something as a treat to the family, whilst the other think this is a opportunity for the family you are on the road to disaster no? there is gonna be conflict, resentment & nothing will compensate for important decissions at first...

I would like to learn more about POJA conflict resolvement.

POJA is tough if you have never done it. Start with tiny decisions like what you have for dinner and work your way upwards.

You start with a problem not a solution so if you have a career conflict you might start by stating your concern about this. You might say that you tend to obsess about your work and that when you do this, you are worried that your spouse/future spouse will feel she is less important than the work. On the other hand you are anxious to be a good provider.

Having stated your problem, you then allow your spouse to give her point of view.

She might say that she agrees that it is a problem and that it makes her feel isolated when it happens.

Then the two of you brainstorm for solutions (very important that you do not start with solutions before the problem is defined, very disrespectful to your spouse to do this)

The solution that works is going to be one you are both enthusiastic about. For example, it might be that you get out of bed an hour later in the mornings and that she takes on the task of billing your clients to offset the loss of work time. If you cannot come up with a solution that works for you both, you leave things as they are and try again later.

The reason why POJA only truly works within a marriage is that you are then one legal entity and a single team. An opportunity for you is an opportunity for the family so you know your solution is not going to be something that is going to leave you in a worse position than you would otherwise be in.

I am having a "date" with my ex-girlfriend today.
She is gonna be defensive after a weekend with her lover.
She entered the house today to search for her international passport to plan the getaway to Oz no doubt, although I specificly asked her NOT to enter the house while I am not there. She texted me it was urgent, but she couldn't find it, as I cleaned a couple of rooms this weekend.

I am nervous & hurting like hell.

Why put yourself through this? Why not stay away from her drama?

Can you ask a friend to be there with you?
I would tell her to get her stuff, and get it over with instead of her coming around every weekend

She was pretty defensive at first, lots of talking no content.
Since I only discovered recently that it is all facade, I started talking on an emotional level and got through to her in an instant. She denied the cheating again, which I was fast to correct. Lots of tear, lots of guilt and a girl on a mission to stand on her own legs for the first time in her life. She said she needs to change. The affair is more or less over since they have to live in the same house or so she says. She misses me so & the comfort of our home. HA! (sorry, could not resist) but she understands she crossed a line and we have to split up for now. She said you are the guy I can spend my life with but I have to do this for myself first.
She agreed to move her [censored] out ASAP.

Went to my "project-friend" to cry after. She said "She is soooo gonna be on your doorstep when you get back, Mr Casanova".
I hope she can stand in the back of the line of those 21 other girls I should date first after I get over this.

Sounds like both of you should spend some "alone" time to grow up a bit .

AGG

Yes we do!
I am open to change and I am writing TODO lists as we speak...
If you care to share your thoughts?
Feel free to point me in a direction... ;-)

What MB material have you read? Any books? Listened to the radio show?

Pretty much all of it on this site I guess.
I started reading posts from people in the marriage section today... Some people should be posting on the "living with a Borderline personality disordered spouse"-forum instead I guess
Those stories of WW's or WH's kidnapping the children... heartbreaking!

yes, I got out cheap.
I've only missed the chance to make babies & let them grow up together with my friends children. YEY!
...and this was a girl with an integrated personality!

If I think of all the "Bridget Jones"-type women who are dying to get a baby before they are 35 (probably giving the best of themselves now & settling for less than they ever bargained for) I am walking straight into a f*ing dating minefield!

I am the top in my business niche.
I've worked hard to get there the past 10 years.

I obviously SUCK in picking the right girls.
My "picker" is not gonna improve overnight by itself.
I am 35 years old FFS. If I want to survive my kids 21st birthday I have to be fast.

Like HDW said:
When are you getting married?
HA!

Sorry, I am mad & angry...

No books yet though

There is a book that Dr Harley wrote for single people: Buyers Renters and Freeloaders

Thanks HDW. I will order it this week.
I think I know the difference between the 3 mindsets from what I've read here this week.
My girlfriend was a buyer, so was I.
We fell back into renter-mode because of the shacking-together culture & a LACK of taking care of each others needs.
Heck, I got my girlfriends needs all wrong from the beginning and I do not think she knew either, yet we were on a path to complete co-dependence.

I still have the buyers mindset and yes I can pick out girls that are buyers EASY.

Met one of my younger brothers ex-girlfriends (from when he was in his twenties) in a nightclub this weekend. She was being hit on by 2 hotties twice my size. Didn't bother me at all. I greet them & have a small chat with the girl. The guys get impatient. Girl sends them off right away: "You still have a long long path to go boys".
We end up in a deep conversation about fixing people, (apparently I am not alone) & the absolute non-sense that is a result.

I need to figure out why I keep doing this!!!
Girl did not have a clue why she was doing it either.
"I keep dating trees that grow, but they remain in their bloody pots forever"

This breakup has put at least ME on my feet emotionaly... and damn I can emotionally connect in an instant with everyone that is open to it & able to do it.
Maybe it is because I am hurt right now, but hell I want to stay this way & don't care if it will cost me my job.

It really feels like I have been living on another planet for years.

You are in the 'fixing others' business because you are hiding.

You are afraid of a relationship of equals where you are required to be who you truly are. Only you can know why this is, but until you can be happy with and can show who you are, you will never find a partner that loves the real you.

Seems like you have put a lot of time and effort and energy into your career for a lot of years. In the meantime, you have not developed the relationship skills that you now seek, as your focus was in another area.

I don't see anything wrong with any of that. Now, you are more interested in connecting with someone long-term. So you are learning about what makes relationships work.

I think you will meet someone with the same energy level and same interests. You're a goal oriented and successful man with a strong intuition about what you want and how to get it. You don't seem to be afraid to read an instruction manual; and you have found one with MB.

You will find Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders very interesting. I remember being surprised at how different my impression of the philosophy was from reading the basics here, to reading the actual book. It's much more complicated than it seems from the synopsis; but in a good and enlightening way - I view everyone differently after reading the book. I accept people more as I can kinda see for real what phases they might be in. --I hope you'll let me know if you agree after you read the book.

opt

I had this one ring in my head all day...

I was actively looking for a relationship of equals before we've met. I have actually said the words to my friends: Equals!
What I did not know that there is one step further: complete enmeshment...
I have come from 8 years (toxic) enmeshment and I learned to step away emotionaly & draw boundaries. I have no problem to show who I really am to my partner & subconsiously practice radical honesty. But I did not want to go as far as radical emotional enmeshment in future relationships, because that was a bad place before. Is that hiding. In a sense it is.

Hiding: I do a lot of emotional hiding at my job as those environments are abusive to say the least. And it is hard to get out of that mindset once you raise your shields. I realise that now.
I do not feel I have any childhood scars that I need to hide, nor any thought about myself or how I see the world.
I can deal with how others see me.

I did not feel I had anything to hide from my girlfriend, but I did emotionaly, part because of my job, part to avoid conflict. The results are disasterous.

We agreed to that on our last meeting...
Yesterday, I invited our friend for dinner like we used to do every monday. My girlfriend arrived with a friend/driver to pick up her stuff & to give me back her key to the house.

I completely cleaned the house the last weeks. (Hey I needed the therapy) and she got really defensive about it when she entered. "This house has never this clean" in front of our friends. "Excuse me? It was this clean BEFORE we shacked up actually".

She started moving her stuff while I was talking to her friend.
I helped my girlfriend to pack some things she needed help on and she broke down crying while emptying her closet. I gave her a hug & asked her what she was feeling. "Nothing"
I asked her if she was mad at me. "No, I am not mad at you, I am so sorry". I think she was confronted with the pieces of her shattered life at that exact moment. We agreed to meet again wednesday for a talk.

She got quite offensive after that.
She went around the house, claiming some of the shared-stuff she needed (and to "give" me the shared-stuff she does not need or cannot possibly stock) Pretty much one way street.
I did not want to make a scene about a toaster, a fryer, wine glasses or some wooden spoons. I should have because that was emotional dishonest to myself... But I've never seen her so obnoxious! She is normally very sensitive to other peoples feelings but her TAKER was obviously running WILD!

Her lover is about to return to Australia & I think she is starting to realise she is gonna FALL into a void any day soon & has to take care of herself now.
I'll definitly make sure she makes one hell of a SMACK by NOT intervening myself.

But I want to make sure she KNOWS I am willing to keep talking to her anytime and even willing to forgive her, but that the key to forgiveness is in her own hand entirely.

One month and a halve before she leaves to Australia.
Two before she will meet up with her lover in Australia.
WTF are they thinking?

As you read Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders the air will clear for you. It is very important to be a freeloader at the start of any relationship. Why? Because it is only by both being freeloaders that you can see one another as you really are rather than then someone who is trying to make a relationship work.

I suspect that you are someone of an unusually high emotional intelligence. High EIs usually have a problem with being a freeloader as they 'tune in' too fast. But it definitely gets easier with age :-).

I am at 27% progress with "Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders" according to the digital-reader so I hope it WILL clear the air as the first part is not really adding anything new to the samples here on the board (which are excellent ofcourse). fingers crossed for open-skies.

As for me having high emotional intelligence... I honestly doubt that. I have asked myself that question lots of times over the years as one of these female friends claimed I had a lack of empathy when we were still single & we had a couple of dates. Very recently (she is a happy mom now) she spontanously apologised to my partner & I. She said "You are always there for people when it really matters! You have a high tolerance for drama & I have mistaken that ability for a low EQ for a long time".

Anyway, the fact that I have "an emotional shield" up when in "work"-mode does affect my emotions BIG TIME. I've noticed the -mostly younger- people around me need more empathy from me & me less calling them on drama of their own creation.
I am pretty direct when it comes to that. I've noticed younger women -especially- have a hard time dealing with
emotional confrontation. (I am the eldest of three brothers btw). Maybe I should chill with the "Disrepectful Judgements" in my surroundings. I have enough issues on my hands to keep me busy for a while. :-)

As for 'tuning in'. When there are no "red flags in sight" I tune-in quite fast in romantic encounters, yes. The ability to make a fast emotional connection has always been "a must" for me in search for partners.

My partner is said to have a very high emotional IQ & very low on drama by some of my friends (not feeling that now). We went very fast from freeloading to renters in the relationship. We quite literaly rented a house together immediatly after the first kiss.

I am no expert but your ex-partner sounds as if she could have borderline personality disorder from the other actions of hers that you describe. BPDs move super fast into a relationship and appear to be your soulmate but it is all mirroring.

I am very well aware of what living with an Axis II personality disorder feels like,
having been in a relationship with a victim from my 21st till my 29th.

My current partner is no BPD in a long shot,
I would have started running the moment we've met.
The emotional damage from that toxic relationship gave me a radar for emotional abuse, projection & mirroring FOR LIFE.
I can spot crazy eyes from across the street.
My friends & family would have warned me aswell.

If anything she is a codependant.
She has got herself into fullblown addiction because of my neglect and is acting out much like a BPD would.
A BPD would act out relentlessly,
for no obvious reason,
all the time. :-/

Well I did say I was no expert <lol>

Dear god, I would not wish that on anyone. :-)

I just divorced from someone with a personality disorder.
I met her for a date, she asked to move in a week later.
We started having sex. She got pregnant.
I should say, during this time I felt like I was being trapped and was going to break it off with her.
But when she said she was pregnant I asked her to marry me.

She was interested in everything I was. Then a year later she developed physical health problems. She visited numerous doctors but they couldn't find any problems.

Does this sound familiar?
If so, RUN.

No, it does not sound familiar.
My wayward partner & I were executing a multiyear-plan actually. Yes, she moved in immediatly because of a practical reason actually. I already had a roommate, so we shacked up with 3 people the first couple of months, to get used to each other.

There was no crazy-making, pushing/pulling, black & white-thinking, impulsiveness, reckless behaviour, dissociation,
tantrums, fast cycling mood-swings, no mirroring, no emotional blackmail during 3,5 years of shacking up.
This is a normal girl lost in a love+substance addiction:
(impulsiveness, reckless behaviour & substance abuse)

I am sorry you were in a toxic-relationship, I know how damaging it can be & how much it hurts.
This isn't anything like what you are going through with your BPD spouse, although you probably see a lot of similarities in my story.

I hope you protect yourself + your child from all the BPD stuff.

I'm divorced now and have custody of my kids.
We were married 10 years but she was sick (with no diagnosis) most of the time.
We moved numerous times because of her concerns about indoor air quality.
She couldn't pass the court custody evaluation.

My thinking is a lot clearer and AlAnon really helped me focus on my own actions instead of hers.

When you say she has substance abuse problems what is it? Alcohol? Drugs?

The last months she took powerfull MDMA to party every weekend.
MDMA is known as XTC which is a powerful LOVE-drug. It brings out serotonine & dopamine which are the same natural chemicals
as being in love for the first time.
It is not really a physical addictive drug like alcohol, amphetamines or opium derivates. But it can be psychologicly addictive as it can change repressed negative feelings into positive feelings in the right circumstances. It makes you feel in complete love with everyone in your surroundings for at least an hour of 5 on each dose. In fact it is one of the only drugs known to mankind to alter repressed feelings permanently. Israeli army uses it in combination with psychotherapy to treat Post-Traumatic Stress Disordered in soldiers & was FDA approved before it was declared illegal.

Not that the weekend loads of MDMA interfered with her job or responsabilities, all the partying messed with our relation.
Since she has the affair(which she is feeding with MDMA ofcourse) she is showing psychological traits of a junkie:
Denial, changing history, cognitive ressonance & impulsiveness.

To give an example:
We had dinner tonight and I told her the affair is ripping my heart out because it is based on deception & dishonesty within OUR relationship.
She replies she needs the affair because she wants the good feeling she gets from it. She does not think about the future consequences, but she would be teared apart if she couldn't see my anymore because of that.
I replied by asking her how it would feel if I started dating her single girlfriends in the future. she tells me that it would be so selfish of me to not consider her feelings.
=JUNKIE-TALK/PSYCHOBABBLE
(or the TAKER unleashed as the Dr. would say)

=)

Believe me, normal women do not behave like this. Even normal women having affairs do not behave like this. There is something terribly wrong with her.

I don't know what "normal" women do.
I've been around insanity for too long.
Have you emailed Dr Harley for advice? It is free and worth $500 expert consult....hard to pass up

Gerold, IMO, this ex-girlfriend is too far in the red if dating is an interview. Aside from history, I actually can't understand why you are even in contact with her anymore.

I have Plan B'd my WH who I was in a relationship with for 18 years, and married for 11. No contact whatsoever except through my solicitor and IM.

It wasn't easy at first, but I can see how much stronger and happier I am. What would I gain from staying in contact with someone who is clearly being emotionally abusive by having an A?

By all means gerold, contact Dr H for advice on dating and moving forward. But not to save this relationship. What her problems are, know that they are not yours.

Heal, learn from MB (and life)... and move forward.

Some good clips on dating. Tell us what you think.
Radio clip on dating
Radio clip

Thanks for the Answer Caracal.
I do not see it the same way unfortunatly.
We were not dating, we were committed to each other for at least 2,5 years. (Shacking-up is HOT in my country, Marriage is NOT.) I know NOW there are consequences on choosing not to marry, but that was the descision we made & I am bound to it.
My girlfriend recently repeated she was committed to our relationship until the affair.

I am choosing to keep in contact for the moment as I am learning more about my girlfriend, myself & our relationship than ever before. I think that it is way more important for us to keep talking than to shut communication and go into the pain/anger/guilt-zone.
The drama is still bearable at the moment & I know how hard it is to go "No Contact" without having at least some answers WHY it all went wrong...


Will continue writing later today.

Will you email Dr Harley for advice?

I think that would not be fair.
I am in good company in these dire times:
My 7 dear friends are psychologists, they know the context of our entire relation. They all say I should fight for this relationship! So does my Mom, Dad & brothers.

You guys throw me opposite opinions & make me doubt if this is a good idea.
I am getting different perspectives and that is EXCELLENT.
You guys are doing a great job & I really need your opinions.

I am sure some hurt soul in the Wild-West can use the Dr's time better. Although I really appreciate the suggestion.

Meanwhile I completed his "Buyers, Renters & Freeloaders".
The "Electric Fence Personality"-part ringed a bell.
in fact, I am reading that part again right now.

Did you listen?

Yes I did. "Radio clip on dating": I would give the British-girl the same advice as the Dr. She already tried a couple of times to make this thing work, the guy keeps being a pig... cut contact, move on 'till he comes back with the message I want to change & want to make this work.
True.

But my relationship worked! We did not have to "try".
My girlfriend met my needs, but I neglected hers, because I was so absorbed in my work. She discovered a new need.
We were both Buyers!

I think the first example fits me best:
"Men are better positioned than women to save a marriage."

The stuff on Thoughtfullness is very interesting for me.
Think about how the other person would feel before you act!

The buyer, freeloader, renter is interesting stuff to use on your own past dating life.
"What was that girls attitude, personality, what was my attitude back then?"
"What went wrong & why?".

My dad is a perfectionist & my mom is a people-pleaser.

I am starting to think I am one of those dual "perfectionist-people pleasers" personality types:

Looking back on my dating list since my 20ts:
I am attracted to freeloaders, yet I learned not to get into real relationships with them (once is enough) I get into relationships with "people pleasers" mostly.
Other "perfectionist", seem to scare me; even though I am sure they were relationship-material.

pfffew time for bed.

Time for a break from women for a while!
Do you have a good hobby or sport?

x10

Sorry, I am really angry today...

Too much of my spare time is being spend behind a computer nowadays.

I spend evenings with friends/family more now than in the relationship.

Before I wanted to commit to any relationship
My hobby was music & civil disobedience
I squated tens of government buildings & threw rave-parties for hundreds of people. Dj'ed all over Europe in weekends.
At 35 that does no longer sounds as a healthy hobby to pick back up. =)

I love to snorkel, surf & snowboard. Unfortunatly there are no mountains or places to snorkel within a 3000 mile radius.
(snowboard trip with friends planned for februari)

I am a talker, I need to talk & emotionaly connect for the moment. I feel to bad to not do it.
At work I lead a team of 7 young IT-developers and I cannot stand any more testosteron when I get home...

No romantic relationships, can live with that.
No women?
You really want me to get depressed?

Agree. It sounds like there is a drug issue here. Dr. Harley says his concepts won't work with addicts.

Isn't an affair a love-addiction?

No. It's a selfish act of getting emotional needs met outside of marriage. It's not an addiction in the same context of a chemical addiction.

Gerald,

It was a hard lesson, and one I am still learning.,,to accept that I only have control over my actions.
We can get into issues like mental illness or personality disorders or addictions and the truth is we can't fix other people. We have to find serenity in our own lives

Let this girl go. God can help her more than you can.

You see it differently because you are being subjective about this. You still have feelings for this woman, and are not making decisions based on logic.

It has taken over a year of Plan B for me to start (and I stress that word) being more objective about my stich with WH. No contact and removing myself from the assault of his wayward actions means I can see much more clearly who he has become, and what he could offer if reconciliation was on the table. I really doubt, aside from history, he could offer me much to tempt me back into recovery.

I can create history with another if I choose. Without the pain of being betrayed by that person overshadowing it.

Now gerold, I do not doubt you were both committed; most posters on MB married "till death do us part" and in your mind, you thought this woman was forever. However, IMO 2 years is the honeymoon period of most relationships. This is when the reality starts to set in, and in a non-MB relationship, the taker, renter, etc starts to rear its head unchecked.

Your situation is not unique; my WH was committed for 18 years... until the A. There are sadly plenty of others here in the same boat. Many people in long-term committed relationships go through patches where EN's are not being met... and DON'T cheat. Your ex did; and after only 2.5 years.

And if you are looking for answers as to what went wrong from your ex, you are looking in the wrong place. A wayward has no answers, only excuses.

Lol no please don't get depressed. Jedi is dead right. You are young with lots of energy. Find a great new hobby or sport that uses it in a healthy way. Be patient, everything else will get sorted out in time.

My best friend moved-in for 4 weeks as he is renovating his house. So that is something fresh.

Doing a volunteer-thing in the weekends now and got "paired up" with a 21 year old "hippie girl" 3 weeks ago. We have to drive to locations together on saturdays & handout leaflets.
This girl appears to have an IQ of 130+ & her emotional intelligence is way of the charts. Het observations on life are astonishing to say the least.

So yes my life adapts to the circumstances & meeting new people -without getting involved - seems like a good alternative for the moment.

Sounds like life is handing you interesting things to keep you busy. Enjoy it.

She texted me saturday to excuse her for her bad behaviour
last thursday.
I did not reply.

Got a txt-message from her again today to meet again saturday!
I replied I am doing volunteering (and she knows).
Got nothing back.

My best friend told me she asked for his creditcard to go to London. (She does not have one yet & needs one for the UK as our cards dont work most of the time). He refused.
Apparently she is putting her lover on the plane to OZ there tomorrow.

She will be contacting me next week to meet me.
Maybe I should write her a farewell-letter aswell?

Don't you think it's interesting that she was trying to get a hold of you and when she couldn't she went to your best friend for the credit card?

Think she was going to try and get you to help her once again?

I think she is so overwelmed by her emotions because of the puppy love, she is too embarrased to ask me. (and she should be)
Interesting? I think it is interesting to know she tries to hide it from me.

Anxiety is at the core here...

Embarassed? Anxious? Stop empathising with the wayward!!!

All waywards try to hide the A until they are remorseful. Your XGF no longer hides it, but since you refused to help fund her awful behaviour by not buying into her BS, she had to ask others to be accomplices.

To get her fix, what she wants. Her AP, and appeasing him.

I think you should be congratulating yourself on having a brilliant BF who not only knows right from wrong, but ACTS upon it. And thinking yourself lucky you escaped this woman. In less than 3 years, she has betrayed you.

I know it sucks to think someone you invested years of effort and love into can show themselves to be worthless of it. But they can. Learn. Grow. Take action with yourself and relationships to prevent it happening again.

Gerald,
I also feel sorry for my ex wife.
But intellectually, I know I am better off without her.
Emotionally, I still feel attached to her.

That's why cutting off all contact Is nice.

Sorry I keep going on about the "Sunk Cost"... but if I think about potential partners I have met the last 5 years, nothing seems to compare to her. Even remotely.

I just do not think I will have a decent relationship ever again, nor any children. =(

But you are not comparing them to your XGF as she is now, you are comparing her with the way you remember her being before she became a cheating lying drug addict. That person may not have even really existed . .

Be patient, once the air clears, there will be some amazing adventures out there waiting for you.

Well that person existed for 3,5 years and has been gone for a month. I am sure she is gonna snap out of it.

I was guilty of the same thing: so absorbed in my work I forgot to pull down the emotional shield around me as I got home. I became my shield until she shattered it completely.
I find myself to be ME again.
She had to live with the shielded version for over a year.

Cannot blame her really.

Really gerold, someone has to do this

I hope that might have cleared some of your betrayed fog.

You may not have met your ex's EN's as well as you could. But to say you "cannot blame her really"? This suggests she had no option but to go have sex with someone else

Got a txt today:

"Hi, I don't know if you want to see or hear me but I want you to know I do. So contact me, on my way to see some of your friends. Kiss"

And your response is . . nothing

Thus far I have not responded. Pondering if I should, even though I did not plan B her officialy.
My friends said wayward wants time-out to think everything over when she visited them yesterday. whatever.

It's not like she has another option: she is stuck in some storage room at her friends place, with her only source of affection back in Oz.
I am sure she does wants to see me, but then she goes to Australia for her "well deserved" vacation.

I do not want to do anything to drive them closer. I exposed until the level of HIS best friends in Oz (yes, I have met them in Australia a couple of years ago and apparently they are quite mad on the bloke for disrespecting my hospitality)

Then again, she has the HD with all my pictures on it from the last 20 years. Have to meet her before she leaves the 23rd of december to Australia + I want her to move her address from my place.

I am already going in the depression fase, I think.
Do not like it a bit.

There is a very rude expression in America for someone who is second best in a relationship. I will not repeat it. You do not deserve this treatment and will one day be thankful for what you have been spared.

Depression is very valuable. It is the mind remapping of your universe to factor in new knowledge and to therefore shift your reality. Respect your brain whilst it does this, it is heavy effort as a lot of memories have to be shifted. You will know when it has finished because it will suddenly feel as if the sun came out.

Get someone else to collect the hd or ask her to post it to you.

I really appreciated lw's description of depression. It captured my own withdrawal and processing of WH's A.

I also agree with getting someone else to collect the HD... I know you want to see her, but it will prolong your withdrawal from her. It will also help prop up her A... after all, if you still want to see her, her actions can't be that bad, can they? That is how a wayward thinks.

You are now going through withdrawal. Sucks huh?

But if you get another fix of her, it will drag it out for you. Go cold turkey.

And I bet she wants to see you... POSOM isn't meeting her needs so well from another continent, so she wants you to step in meanwhile. Don't. Let her see the consequences... let her build her fairy tale expectations of how once they are "reunited" everything will be rainbows and unicorns. He will never live up to those expectations.

Meanwhile, you will have gone through withdrawal, learned a lot about yourself, and gained some clarity on who she is.

You might not see this yet... but the world is your oyster. You have so many options open to you, because you are learning and becoming wiser.

She caught me on facebook chat this weekend.
Said she really wants to see me.
Was wondering if I was avoiding her as she got no replies from me. She would understand if I don't want to talk to her anymore.

I pointed out I wanted to meet 2 weeks ago:
She proposed to meet this weekend a week ago but I let her know I was not available that day & then she went radiosilent on me aswell. What did she expect? That I keep sending propositions to meet?
She said she was sorry, knew fb would be a bad idea & ran away from the chat.
She send me a message afterwards that she wanted to see me.
With no real proposition.

Maybe we should meet up, she brings the harddisk. I'll ask her to move her address, bring her mail & tell her I do not want to speak to her as long as she is in contact with the Australian bloke & that means at least until she gets back from Oz the 20th januari. Him OR me.

That way I will not get or give a "fix" & stay in withdrawal.

Folks here have already suggested you not meet up. And that you find someone to get the disk for you. And that you end contact.

You can do what you want, but this program has certain principles attached to it. Most of them are more familiar to us than they are to you, since you are relatively new here.

I was in the same boat. Brand new, unfamiliar with the concepts, and still thought that people didn't understand my specific circumstances, so therefore I could modify what they were telling me and do things my own way. It's amazing how we justify our actions to suit our emotions.


opt

If you meet up AT ALL you will reset the clock to zero.

Do not offer her any conditions for returning. This woman is not worth the nail on your little finger. She has so little respect for you that she turned to you for help in enabling her affair. You are worth so much more than this.

Yes I get it. No meeting.

She proposed to meet with a common friend on thursday or with me alone on friday. she proposed to cook for me.
Sorry I find that akward & repulsive right now.
Have not answered yet.
Don't know what to say.

Do not say anything and block her number.

I dropped her a line on fb, that I am not up to meet her at all. That last month was too painful & I am emotionally exhausted.

Met my projectfriend today: She will be meeting her on thursday & will copy the HD instead.
She told me she met my ex the day before her lover left to Oz last week as they had planned a meeting that was long due.
She found herself at a "goodbye party" instead & found the whole thing just weird. As if my ex gf had me replaced by someone else & everything was back to normal. "I did not even had a chance to have a decent talk with your ex! She told me some crazy plans she was brainstorming on."

Anyway I asked projectfriend to stop telling me stuff for a while as I've heared enough wayward fantasy for the rest of the year (and the next one too!) Seems like her friends are enabling this thing too as I suspected & that's not just my opinion. My projectfriend had still hope in this turning out OK but she said MY EX has to act in the next 3 weeks.
I know my projectfriend wants us to come back together, but I told her I gave it all I could & it's all gone now unfortunatly & there is no point in saving anything if she is going to Australia.

It has been 1,5 months and I gave up, instead of plan A'ing her like I intended when I got here. My brain is already accepting the fact that it might be better this way, but I yet have to see what I'll get in return... I am still not optimistic about the prospects AT ALL.

"She answered she will respect my wish & leave me alone, although it hurts her. She knows she hurt me & she wishes it never happened. She hopes I will contact her sooner than later????"

I don't believe a single word she is writing.
But at least she got the message in two sentences.

Deleted her from FB immediatly after.

Did not delete her friends (yet) as it will be much more practical for me to avoid the places she might be at as we do have a lot of common friends & activities. Definitly cannot use bumping into her before she leaves on "holiday" to Australia.

My best friend, living with me atm, informed me he is meeting my ex tonight. Think I am going to pamper myself this weekend, maybe go out for a drink / dance.

You are making great progress, keep up the good work!

While my best friend met my ex last night, I visited one of my oldtime friends Liza & her 2 kids. (not real name)
Her partner (another oldtime friend) is abroad for work unfortunatly.

Apparently my ex is "seeking approval" of her new relationship & wants to join in the activities of my oldtime friends & I. There was little talk of me & my feelings and that bothered my friend a lot.

Lisa's boyfriend & father of her 2 children John goes out to drink with his (mostly single) buddies every thursday.
Lisa made me aware that the single friends of my ex-gf have been joining them the last weeks & she is not at all comfy with that.
She has confidence in Eric and she trusts him 100%.
I saw the desperation in her eyes.
I said she has to pull her bloke away or join them & there is no such thing as 100% trust in a relationship, neither should there be. This is infecting the people I love.

Good advice to your friend.

Why not send her some articles to her from here? Why don't they get married?

Please don't be offended, I will give you an honest answer.

Because I think I should not be fixing other peoples relationship right now.
I dated her 10 years ago when we were both single, we did not get anywere romanticly
but we did experiment with sex. So that is another reason for me to stay out of their relationship.

I live in a shacking-up culture.

My friend has 2 kids, in her head she believes she is in a committed relationship & why should I convince her she is not?

Sorry I am anxious of the fallout of my relationship & the impact of it on my friends. I should not be fixing anything at the moment, except myself.

You have come a long way in a short time Gerold :-)

No offense taken.

I wouldn't want to sit back if I saw a friend (or even a stranger) walking into a fire pit and sit by and do nothing. But hey, you're her friend.

Have you read what Dr. H says about staying in contact with any ex-lover?

Do you think you need to look at your "picker"?

Have read the book Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders yet?

Here.
Radio clip on dating
Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders

This is in the thread also.
Clip of Dr. Harley talking about Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders
Radio clip on Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders

I gave her advice that she should not trust the new situation & has every right to defend her family.
Maybe I could suggest to babysit their children so she could join her partner on this weekly night out. That way I can help without actually getting involved?

I think so. Why?

Yes. I am working on that.

Because this friend is an ex-lover.

We have been friends for more than 20 years. We had sex 2 times, 10 years ago when we were both frustrated from dating. We decided to stay friends back then & not to get romanticly envolved. We've met each others physical needs, no more no less.
Her partner, which has been a friend for 20 years aswell knows, we have talked about that a long time ago when they started their relationship.

If I would suggest to them both to cut contact because what happened 10 years ago: They are both going to think I am insane & they will be mad with me to even SUGGEST to drop 40 years of friendship because of an experiment.

Do you tell all your new girlfriends about your past relationship with her?

Experiment? Boundaries are an experiment?

Does this friend of yours meet any of your ENs?

Do you wonder why you only date freeloaders?

Do you know any happily married couples?

I would loose my complete circle of friends too as a logical result. Does not sound as a healthy way to change my life AT ALL.

You mean you've had romantic relationship with everyone in your circle of friends?

Yes, I did tell all my partners about my previous dates/encounters honestly.

We were 24 and just out of university. Yes they were back then.

Conversation? We have conversation about our work, our friends, the world. Normal friend conversation. We see each other, in presence of all our other friends, in presence of our partners. Maybe once a month. It's not like we go out by ourselves or anything. If I would cut contact with lisa & her partner I would loose the rest of the cirlce as they all have young families & they do not have time to meet up individually.
If I were to stop the gettogethers with my friends I will loose the whole circle.

Yes

My parents.

What? No, I did not have any romantic relationship within my circle of friends. I had sex with one of them.

Ok, my bad. I saw you posted this the same time I was and so I thought you were answering my questions.

When I was dating after my D. I wasn't around a healthy group of "friends". Until I got my butt in gear and changed my environment did I get it. It took me too many bumps on the head and hurtful encounters to get it.

What about joining new groups to meet new friends? I also found out the bar/club scene to be very unhealthy.

You will attract the kind of people you want by being like the person you want.

If you hung around people with boundaries you will live with boundaries then you will attract people with boundaries.

My parents have boundaries, my friends have boundaries, I have boundaries.

I though I met someone with boundaries but she went Wayward as soon as her friends threw their relationships & boundaries overboard.

My ex is in a toxic friend pool. I am not.

Do you really think Lisa's SO has boundaries? Going out to bars with single guys while she is at home with the kids?

So what are you hoping to learn with MB?

What have you done to work on your picker?

Yes, I do.
90% of the males I know do sports & have a drink with their male friends afterwards, single or not.

They both decided this enthousiasticly before they had kids, she used to go out aswell.
But circumstances change: there are kids now, so she stays at home. The latest development is her SO friends are joined by single women.

She does not like the agreement in the new setting & I think they will come to a new agreement, thus changing the boundaries they once set on this subject.

To learn what makes relationships work, were I went wrong & what I should change about myself to have a relationship for life.

As for my picker:
1) Not to "pick" for while.
2) To tell women who are interested I hurt & I am not relationship material.

I have no idea how to work on my "picker".
Yes, I read freeloader, renters & buyers.

I can definitely tell you're serious about learning and educating yourself. Good for you, friend.

Well on you picker. What are some common issues that you saw from your past ex/exes that you wish you would have noticed before?

For example, my ex couldn't hold a job.

I really like this idea to support my friend with her relationship to offer to babysit her kids with my best friend.
That way she can join her spouse on this night out (or do something else) & work on their relationship.

Now I know she has relationship troubles, I should avoid meeting her alone in the future. I could be a potential threat to their relationship too & I do not want to be in that position.

By babysitting I can be there for Lisa & John. They both were there for me to help me with my painful breakup. The least I can do is offer some of my extra spare-time so they can have some quality time together.

Good idea?

I have to think about that one, will get back on it.

Very good idea and excellent boundaries by not being alone with her. Hopefully she will go with him or they go out together for a date for some UA time.

Well I made the offer.

Little relapse today. My ex seems to have visited most of my friends the past days in seeking support for 'her new relationship'. They said she is out of character, wants to have cake and eat it. Got quite mad and send her a message she should leave my Life aswell and stop hurting my friends.

She asked to meet again

Replied, I cannot meet with someone who chooses to have a relationship bases on my pain.

She replied in anger that it would be my own choice

Well at least you have your answer.

Just from this tiny post (I don't even known your story) she sounds like a drama queen who loves...well, causing pain.

Is he an OM?

Yes, he is an Other Man.

No, she is not a drama queen at all...
I've choosen her because she was low on drama actually.
Well that was before the affair ofcourse.

Now it's 101% drama

Now some clarification is needed. She is
Not married to you so the argument can be made that All if Fair in Love and War

That argument would be a giant love-buster though...

Anyway, they have been convicting warcriminals since Nurnberg, so I can safely say your argument is invalid. ;-)

People really do not change. You are seeing a different person of course but she was not a calm person who woke up one morning as a drama queen. That just did not happen.

I'm betting your terrible experience with the BPD ex led you to overlook some red flags with this one. Just a hunch.

I had a long time out after the BPD relationship.
Well no, that's not true.
After the last suicide threat when the police helped me to get my belongs from our house;
I was hooked up IMMEDIATLY by one of my brothers female friends (Phd chemist) to one of her own dear friends.
A girl who was in as much pain as I was, freshly graduated psychologist.
Her boyfriend left her immediatly once he got the news she was pregnant & she choose to have an abortion.

We literally met, saw eachothers pain & literally didn't leave eachother side for 2 months.

We agreed to stop the mutual rebound thing as soon as we got over the worst & never looked back.
We've met years later & both had a good laugh & talk about it actually.
It was very therapeutic thing for both of us apparently.

After that I didn't date for at least 2 years after the BPD.
Went in therapy with a psychologist, was on a BPD-friends & relatives site,
build a carreer, got happy living on my own.
Started to date with all the knowledge about red flags & BP's.
Dated a couple of women, they all gave me red flags.
They all started relationships soon after.

Dated exclusivly with a girl (I already knew from highschool) for half a year, after some persuasion from her side.
I broke it up as she could not cope with my job/lifestyle.
I was unavailable for days, she crossed a couple of clear boundaries as a result. At one moment she actually thought I was having an affair!
Ok, in hindsight I was freeloading while she was clearly a renter; but things got hectic quite early on and I broke it off.
Our-energy levels, recreational activities did not match up either.

Then I met this girl. No red flags. Ok, she was young a bit insecure but she valued conversation, affection, stability, family
& was not the usual drama queen you expect at her age at all (=her friends)
She was honest, admitted she was lazy & tends to give up.
I did not think she was lazy at all. I saw her quit a lot of recreational activities & projects she setup for herself though.
but she held a steady job & grew in it. Consistent behaviour.
My friends & family were all quite amazed with her actually. All said that this one was a keeper.
She did respect boundaries very well. She had a lot of irrational fear & anxiety in the beginning but we overcame a lot as a couple. She grew into a confident women in 3,5 years & now throws it all away in a partycraze summer with her freeloading enabling friends.

The message I get from people around me is the same:
"Dude I am sorry, I did not see that one comming at all".

I have a huge part in this.
All evidence is against me really.
3 relationships failed because of my job and unavailability as a result I seem to drive my partners completely crazy.

3 failed relationships is nothing to be ashamed of. Now you know about MB so things are going to be different.

Next time you are not going to pick a fixer-upper. You are going to find someone whole and healthy who gives you joy.

Next time you are not going to move in together two weeks after you meet. In fact you are going to stay out of her bed until you really know who she is. Wait 6 months if you can.

Next time you are going to be a freeloader, then a renter. If you decide to become a buyer you will do so via a formal marriage ceremony.

Next time you will talk to her about MB while you are dating and will agree what is needed to safeguard the relationship.

Now that wasn't so hard, was it?

Failed Relationahips?

Well, with this one you can see why.

1. She moves in with you mostly because it is convenient.
Yes, you bonded at the 3 day festival, but really, it was because she probably had no place else good to go.

2. You do not do your most enjoyable recreation with her. You do reading, playing music etc on your own.

3. So you exhibit Independent Behaviors when you do that.

4. Also you probably worked alot and did not spend too much Undivided Attention with her.

5. She was not feeling the affectin from you, I guess, and did not have strong boundaries with the Australians. You in fact almost new this was going to happen.

6. You are not married. So instead of being a "buyer", you were a renter and she was a freeloader. The commitment is not there.

7. You don't want her to live in your house anymore. Good!

8. She said she cannot possibly live without me...I am guessing this means "I don't want to have to pay for my own rent".


So why did this relationship fail? Because you were not investing in it. Is that bad? It is if you want a committed relationship that will last. If you want a girlfriend for a while with no commitment, then probably not. Was this girl worth investing in? Probably not given her age and your age and what are your priorities.

You are indeed very very close and you put your finger on the sore spot. You obviously read the whole tread and I appreciate your comments a lot.

Some nuances:

We did have a lot of common recreational activities. A lot.

I had someone living with me at the moment so the bonding period lasted a bit more than those 3 days, although we were involved. Yes it was convient for her in hindsight, but she was not aware her roommates were going to move out when we started out. No premeditation there.

The thing is, I was a buyer at some point.
The negotiations (or Poja called here) with her were really really difficult & subconsiously I gave up at some point I guess. I ?hid? my feelings or was completely unaware what they were meaning because of the stress.
But I felt something was not right.
That was the part I was emotionaly dishonoust about.
To her & myself.

It took way to long for me to understand my relationship was under strain by the time the Australians arrived.
I was waiting for a conflict actually, not an affait.
And the 100% trust stuff blew up in my face.

She was a buyer at some point too.
My friends said she was ready to have babies, but somehow I was not really convinced at that point.

I retracted to IB & individual recreational activities.
& I cannot forgive myself it didn't ring a bell to either step out the relationship or fight for it. I was not getting my needs met and for the first time in my life I know what that does to me within a relationship. It was not all stress I was feeling!

Anyway, I do not have the feeling this thing is over yet.
This is only the beginning...

My gutfeeling is telling me this isn't over yet & the girl is going to snap out of it & will be back on my doorstep.

If I look what is out there of suitable partners, I honestly think the investment into recovery could be a good idea.
It will take as long as to invest into a new partner anyway.

I am 35, could not care less about someone else kids and have a high IQ. The outlook is pretty grim for me.

We are the same age.

Do uou choose to remain single in Life now?
Or do you think there are loads of suitable partners out there, once the healings is done?

Well the old saying, There are plenty of fish in the sea.
It is a true saying.

But for now I want to be single.

Yes, this girl was worth investing in and I did... or so I thought I did. By reading MB: I realise I invested in the parts we both thought where important: Financial stability, family commitment, honesty, her self-esteem... I did not invest enough in the needs we did not share: Admiration to start with.

Emotional Maturity & Self-Esteem.

For some reason I am approached by all types of instable women.
These are some examples I "met" the last 3 weeks/weekends.
I do not invite these women, I do not make eye-contact with them, I just do not know WHY they approach me.

BPD's are easy to spot from afar, they approach me waving multiple red flags in my face.
Last example was a mother of 5 (!!!) at a party, never met her before. Probably my age.
Out of the blue asking me to have sex with her tonight;
when I said no, she started crying hystericaly like a 3 year old.
My answer: "So you feel rejected? Oh dear, do you think you are the only one in pain?"

25 year old girl, has been a "fan" for the last 10 years (I used to be a Dj & promotor of shows)
Contacts me on facebook while she is still in an on-off relationship.
Tells me she heared the news of my girlfriend & I.
Says she has left her relationship too after they both cheated: "What a coincidence!"
We chat & it is apparent she wants to jump in another relationship right away.
I tell her I need time to heal before getting in a new relationship.
She says she has NOT been NOT in relationships since she turned 17 years old.
(She does not have to convince me as she is a model & breathtakingly beautiful from the outside.)
I tell her I was single for at least 3 years in my life by choice & it helped me to grow up.
She replies she cannot not live without sex.
Although I had a rebound-relationship once in my life which was very therapeutic at the time.
I am not planning to get into one again with someone who is clearly emotionally immature and stearing towards one.
(or has a picture of a bleeding/castrated Ken-doll on her facebook (!!!))

27 year old acquaintance, in a 2 yr relationship with one of 'my' artists.
Artist confided in me years ago as he is an orphan & does not know how or what to feel around women.
He told me he is very jealous when his gf is around other guys.
My ex warned me his girlfriend was into me, I never noticed.
Girl makes advances now on facebook while trying to comfort me with my breakup.
Shallow, very shallow.

37 year old acquaintance, met her at a party recently while she was quite fysical with a young guy on the dancefloor.
Spots me, drops the guy & start to play touchy feely with me instead while asking how I am doing.
I tell her my girlfriend betrayed me & I am in pain.
She IMMEDIATLY takes off to be never seen again that night.
L.O.L. [censored] crazy.

Best friend of my girlfriend, 25 years old contacts me on FB to ask how I am holding up.
She was in a 8yr old relationship which she broke off in spring & I consider her to be one of my ex-girlfriends ENABLERS.
Tells me how she now lives on my block, how she like my food.
I do not invite her, but tell her 'welcome on the block instead'.
Akward!

I keep attracting these toxic women by the truckload, while once in a while a potential healthy girl comes along.
Guess what? I do not even notice them!

Last week while dancing with my best friend he pointed me to a girl who was waiting against the wall.

"That girl has been waiting patiently for 15 minutes for you to talk to her"

I am hopeless.

Have been pampering myself the last days.
Lots of reading, trying to get my mind of
my ex while I am in plan B.

Took my "projectfriend" for a real fancy dinner tonight.
I needed one desperatly & she has been supporting me
through the last months like a real friend should.
She is in state-care now she studying.
Her complete fortune is exactly 3 dollar at the moment.
So we dressed up & got pampered.
The food was excellent & we both enjoyed every moment.
Said she felt like she won the jackpot!

Leaving tomorrow on a flight to Thailand, got 3 weeks of holidays & nothing really planned (not even one hotel booked). Will try to make it to some aquintances for the xmass holidays... Alone time & snorkling are on the agenda after that. Downloaded more Dr. Harley books to read under the palm trees.

Have fun.

so I am having a blast here on Asia, clearing my head.
Get a mail from one of my ex's friends who tells me he knows being betrayed is about the same feeling as someone close to you dying.
Feeling worry for me. Saying he is going to have a talk to her when he is in Oz.

yesterday he posted pictures of my ex and her POS australian OM taking a swim on NYE, embrassing in the water on facebook!
can you believe this sh*t?

Her friends are completely enabling this relationship and rubbing it into my face.
They are ALL so going to hate me for this when they get back.

My ex send over drugs to her friends in Oz 3 months ago by mail, much against my advice.

in the meanwhile my ex still did not change her home address, although I clearly asked her to do so.
I know waywards hate paperwork and I made her clear last month I am willing to go to the police and city council to adjust the situation.

seeing the pictures makes me want to go to the police and make a statement my ex is involved in international drug trafficking.
I am that angry!

doing this will definitly destroy the marriage of the couple she is staying with, as the husband will not get his Oz citizenship.
It will also destroy my ex chances to ever get into Oz again.

I am actually concidering to blow this up and have revenge...
on the other hand, it will clear me as I do not have anything to do with this traffik as she is not living with me anymore.
any thoughts?

Is revenge really the right thing to do?

Why don't you have your ex blocked on Facebook?

she is blocked from facebook.
Hard to block everyone we know in common.

I want her to change her address.
I asked her, She does not.
so legally she is still allowed in my home.

Only she can change the address or I have to have a very good reason to do so.

Trafficking is a damn good reason.

doing this will look and feel like revenge to everyone incl. Myself...

On the other hand it is good boundary control towards myself.

back from Thailand, a return to an empty home...
But I can feel the air as cleared!

My best friend's house is ready and he moved out in the meanwhile. He repainted my room and bathroom though, which was an excellent idea as this place has something new to it now.

My first day at work today, received a 'friend request' from ex today... Ah, she is still in Oz with POSOM: ignore.

My predictions are right once again: She has been 2 weeks without her enabling friends, which is about the time she needs to get homesick abroad. Apparently, POSOM cannot fulfill all her needs, even when he is with her 24/7...

Next prediction: she will return next week in the middle of winter, no home, out of money and no more holidays left this year... CRACK goes the fantasy bubble!

Expecting a pathetic reconsiliation attempt soon after that.
Bet you it will be full on FOGBabble...

I gave her a condition for communication in my plan B letter, which I do not expect is gonna happen, so I remain in plan B.

I do need a plan once I go out in the weekends as I am bound to run into her... or her friends.

Not sure how to handle that...

My plan if I run into my ex is to RUN !

My brother met my ex. I am still NC since dunno when.
Said she is still in complete denial & is changing history.
Said she "left" me because I did not want to have kids soon!!!
Aussie POSOM is coming to live here & will look for a job.

Staggering!

As for my life:
Social agenda is getting packed.
I am having my living room repainted/refurnished.
My customer/employer wants to hire me long term.
Feeling great, able to hold some of that holiday energy; having an occassional relapse now & then ofcourse.

Came to the conclussion that my 10yr younger "project-friend" (since 5 years) is meeting a LOT of my needs since I came back from Thailand & I am responding to that:

She has been a most caring friend since the affair & has taken up to role as intermediary with my ex aswell. She opened up completely on the child abuse she had to suffer & as a result we are really growing closer emotionally.

She had exams and I made her dinner a couple of times while she was studying (she passed). Learned her to make some Thai dishes & boy did she strike a snare when I caught her admiring me...

This weekend she asked me if I would accompany her to Thailand when she graduates next year and this made me come to the conclussion we are maybe meeting too much of each others needs to be healthy... She has a boyfriend her age since the last 3 years which she sees in the weekends, but he is not able to travel because of his job...

Maybe it is time for me to slowly start dating women?

Yea. Men and women can't be just friends.

I believe men and women can be friends but there is no 'just'... boundaries have to be in place.

After the breakup, my projectfriend said: 'Our friendship was completely different when you were in your relationship' and I explained I would not allow my needs to be fulfilled by another women when being in a relationship. That it is a boundary thing.

I know I am a role-model to this girl since she was 20 and ran away from home. I cannot allow myself to get romanticly involved.
But she IS filling my lovebank at the moment and she is not even aware she is doing it.

I have my doubts this is such a good evolution -and please feel free to critise me here- but having a lot of my needs met by a female friend, makes me feel a lot better in this post-betrayal phase.

It helps me to have better boundaries around single women who could be a potential love interest: I do not get attracted right away if they hit one of my buttons as I am not that needy...

Your thoughts?

I can see how this makes you feel better; she is filling a void for you. But she is not relationship material so where are you going with this? Would you not be better off putting your efforts into thinking about what would constitute a healthy relationship for you?

Things I wish I had done but didn't:

List and rank your top emotional needs
Make a list of the red flags you ignored in previous relationships.
Ask yourself why you ignored them.

Hi Living Well,
Do not get me wrong: I have been doing what you suggest since I found this site...
Thing is: I absolutly have no idea what my emotional needs are and how to rank them from important to less important.
Now that my young friend is filling the void & pressing my buttons, I am slowly discovering what I need:

Admiration is definitly a high-ranked need she is meeting,
well above recreational activity & conversation she is providing...I am the eldest brother of 3, so I guess admiration is my built-in signal/reward I am doing a good job providing/caring.

Hey GM!
I think dating is how to learn more about what your EN's are. And what you find attractive in another person.

The trick, I believe, is to just date and not get all caught up emotionally in each woman. That's hard because you are used to a long term relationship.

I think Dr. H would say to start dating when you feel ready [remember, he also doesn't consider what you went through to be "adultery" since you were not married]. But keep in mind your vulnerability (which I think you are experiencing with the young lady you are spending time with now- if I read your post correctly).

And keeping your boundaries in place while dating will ultimately yield better results in terms of your own introspection.

-just some thoughts

opt

you are right optimism, I am still vulnerable.
but my young friend is not a threat to my healing nor is she a suitable partner for a 35 year old.

My relationship with my projectfriend is quite complex it seems.
I had a talk about it this night with two dear psychologist friends.

They said my projectfriend needs to control her boyfriend out of fear of rejection. She does not fear rejection by me as I am the only person that never rejected her; so she freely caters my needs without fear because that is what she actually wants and needs at the moment.

I am still trying to wrap my mind around this, feel free to comment/critise. :-)

Why have a woman with baggage?
A big piece of baggage is a boyfriend.
Why be complicated?

In the 5 years I've know her our relation was never complicated.
She has always been like a little sister to me.
I never considered her as a potential partner, I still don't.
And I am sure that feeling is mutual.

I do think it's safe to be vulnerable with her.

Went dancing tonight.

Met a 30-something women on the dancefloor.
Something about her.
Started to dance with her.
Funny, her game was to ignore/reject me while dancing but she just came a little to close everytime we exchanged glances.

We started talking (french, not my mothertongue )
Same game, attraction/rejection; test if I would step away or stay and try another question.
When I did, she finished my question in my mothertongue. (nice)

This dating stuff is going to be a lot harder than I expected.

lesson learned: ignore initial rejection.
It is a sign she has boundaries and is not willing to let any sucker cross them.
cool actually.

Well I got her name and she is comming over to the next dance in 3 months.

Damn I still have a lot to learn I guess.

Nice story, dating is not embedded in every culture. We do not do much of that in England either. But it is a great way to find out what your emotional needs are. Keep up the good work!

I realise that multi-dating, opposed to the USA, is mainly a no-no here on the continent (only allowed for internet dating). It's ok to "hang out" with multiple ppl at the same time but once you connect, things have to move fast to exclusivity or you are considered 'to be leading on' a women(or just not interested enough). When I ask my female friends about it, most women want to be swept of their feet -sort of speak- instead of becoming friends first. "Chemistry" instead of "compatibility" is the norm to go by.

This 30 date thing is going to be hard to translate to "European".

That's great that you speak another language.
That should be attractive to any woman

Besides my mothertongue i speak 2 other languages fluently and can understand 2 more... does not make an impression on women here:
'So you paid attention in high-school? Good for you!' :-)

I am pretty sure French would be an asset in the US when dating, as it is supposed to be the language of love over there ;-)

I am trying this 30-date thing... without going native.
Arranged dates with 5 women, one I met recently others I have known superficialy for years. Asking women on a date when you are 35 seems a lot easier than what I remember actually. Facebook helps a lot!

Have thrown in 2 women who have shown interest but of which I already know they are not relationship material; but I have to start somewhere... I will call this my "control group".

- 25, model, stunningly beautiful ***EDIT*** who fits all criteria for a histrionic personality disorder. Yet we share a lot of recreational activities, bump into each other everywhere & she is fun to hang around. (if she is not your object of affection probably)

- 31, refugee worker, intelligent with a "buyer"-mentality and a set of very strong boundaries. Known her for years as she is a collegue of one of my best friends. Problem is her boundaries are so tight I actually have to be careful what I say or she will be on the electric fence. ;-)
She never had a serious relationship before.

- 31, PhD student whome I met in Thailand & spend 4 days with discovering deserted beaches. Beautiful, intelligent and has two feet on the ground. Has been single for a year after she broke up her 5 year relationship for good reasons. Looking forward to this date.

- 30, succesful interior designer. Worked with her brother years ago. Beautiful, intelligent self-made women with two feet on the ground. Does not know what she is looking for in a man. Said her last relationship was a 1 year "project" that ended terribly. Sounds familiar.

- 29, journalist/writer. Friend of a girl a dated a long time ago. Ambitious, intelligent, beautiful & all-over-the-place with a set of boundaries. Has a long history of dating and disappointment.

I think I will need to journalise these dates afterwards as I never dated several women before.

Any tips?

So why are you going out with anyone who you already know isn't going to work?

Couple of reasons:

Contrast effect and to learn what my emotional needs are.
Because they will introduce me to more women.
(will need more dates if I were to date 30 women as suggested)
I have enough time to kill, why not go out.
:-)

Really? haha!

I'm laughing because when I was dating online and I met a great guy I knew wasn't going to work for me, I tried to introduce him to the ladies in my singles group. After a couple times I finally got the hint that other people consider this a very rude thing to do. But I am scientific by nature and thought nothing of it.

Hey Daisy,

Oww dating women you are not interested in works to get new dates.
5 years ago I dated a beautiful, yet disturbingly crazy young female.
We went to a concert together & there I met another girl I did not know before (she knew who we both were however).

a couple of weeks later we went on a date together and
she actually told me "I could not understand why you would date that crazy b*tch, so I came up to you and introduced myself". :-)

+ it is a scientific fact that males are more attractive to women if they in company with other females...

I do not think the same will work on males though.

I will post the scientific evidence Pepperband.
One of my friends is a Dr. in psychology and does research in this area. Give me a couple of days to post the exact article.

But for starters :
"Intrasexual Competition Among Women" Tracy Vaillancourt and Aanchal Sharma et. al.
https://www.box.com/s/rdthllpbpfuk0g2lqtdt

The references in this article should give you a clue that competition plays a big part in human mate selection/attraction
...and that I am not making this up.

GM

It's all good.
I apologize for laughing. I was laughing at my own joke inside my head.
I have done medical studies.
One study was dropped by the drug company that funded us, because we were not getting the desired outcomes. They found another avenue to publish the exact results they were looking for. Some time later, patients would bring the second study to my attention and asked if I had considered using that particular treatment.



What's a gal to say? LOL
After all, it was scientifically proven to be efficacious.

Went out for a dance alone this weekend.
Had some friendly conversations at the door when BAM! I find myself deeply enmerged in a emotional connection with a female my age. No bullsh*t chitchat whatsoever, within 5 minutes we are talking about feelings and past grievances.

We continue our conversation at the bar where it soon turns out she has a partner (for the last 15 years) and he has been unemployed and depressed for the last 2 years. she tells me she is hurting because of him.

My alarmbell goes bezerk.
I tell her my last girlfriend betrayed me.
Killed the conversation and went dancing.
^^

No lesson learned unfortunatly.
I already knew to stay away from women in relationships.
i am a fool for immediate emotional connection and intimite conversation though... knew that, but she almost blew me away with her voodoo.
Is it a bad idea to find this an atractive trait in women?

But you did learn a lesson! The fact that the alarm bells went off is perfect. You were bonding with her over shared negative experiences. Always destructive. Well done.

My alarm bell went off because this women was sharing her relationship problems with a perfect stranger of the opposite sex in a bar. It looked to me she was setting herself up for an affair/rebound.

I did not even know it was wrong to bond over shared negative experiences!!! I do it with new collegues all the time and it actually works imho.

Ofcourse I do understand that bonding with 'a date' should not all be about doom & gloom.

Could you eleborate living_well?

lol I meant a romantic bonding of course :-)

You don't want negative experiences to be what you have in common in a romantic relationship because you will reinforce those feelings in each other.

Ok, I agree with that.

But as an icebreaker it worked like a sharm...
Felt like I skipped 2 dates + the redundant chitchat.
When a complete strangers takes a conversation to a deep emotional level, you feel trusted.

Until you stop and think why someone would spill out her guts to a total stranger. Is it really something about you. Or could it be something about her, maybe?

Had a fantastic Easter weekend: I threw a dance-party, got some 400 people dancing until 6am. My ex came aswell, although I asked the IM to ask her not to come. I did not talk to her but caught her glimpse in the audience. Did not make me feel bad or good.

Yesterday was another drama day: my mrojectfriend came over like every monday and told me she feels trapped in her relationship with her first boyfriend. She has not told him yet.

I advised her to sleep on it for a couple of weeks and try to talk to him after that. She feels very guilty.
I asked her if it had anything to do with our bond, but she said it did not.

The last couple of weeks I did notice her changing a lot. She is doing her first internship and she is loving it. Stopped biting her nails, wears dresses and skirts instead of jeans and actually talks openly about guys gazing at her and how she is liking it.
She is transforming into a woman, I guess...

I said I will be there for her whatever she decides and I could help her restore her love if she wants to.
She said she does not know if she wants to restore the love.
Said she will ignore her trapped feeling for the rest of the week...

Feeling trapped struck a cord, it is not a normal feeling to have in a relationship.

I remember feeling trapped in my first relationship when I was in my early 20ts...

Years later I understand the feeling was due to the fact I was in an abusive relationship and was being abused.
i am pretty sure she is not.

This leaves open 4 other possibilities:
- she is affraid to hurt him.
- she is affraid she will not find another partner
- She is affraid she will not be good enough for him.
- She is cheating and speaking FOG-babble. (Very unlikely)

I was always able to support her in difficult situations, but I am affraid this one is over my head.d

I think the 'feeling trapped' of a bad relationship is simply your subconscious telling you all it not well whilst your conscious mind is still trying to make the best of the invested time.

She just needs to respect and honour her instincts and listen to them. Let her do this for herself.

sound advice. Thanks Living_well!

For the first time in a long while, I had the pleasure to experience "chemistry" again.
While volunteering a festival this weekend, I met a stunningly beautiful 30+ woman: She stepped out of the volunteering office while I was about to enter; our eyes crossed and we were both struck by lightning for a second.

We met a second time in the office at daybreak, where she asked the volunteers for a shaparone because she wanted to go dancing before the end of the festivities & was getting harassed by horny 18 yr olds on the dancefloor. (I could imagine why!)

I volunteered gladly and we had a quite intimate dancing session of at least 2h... we had to, as she was not kidding about the 18 yr olds! We constantly exchanged glances and she smiled every time: she was obviously enjoying the UA.

We agreed to meet the next afternoon at the afterparty but she did not show up...

The next day my .org received a mail on facebook from her, asking for my email after which she adds me on fb... she obviously knew how to track me.

First thing I see on her page:
SHE IS ENGAGED!!!

This is all very frustrating as I seem to attract WW's only, while the singles I am meeting seem impossible to date...

Man, that sucks. What did you guys talk about for 2h? Did the subject of "are you involved with anyone" come up? After all that I have been through, I think I would ask that on the "first date" from now on.

Did you ask her about the engagement? I would have asked her right on her facebook page. Something like, "I just noticed that you're engaged. Thats too bad because I really enjoyed the 2 hours of dancing that we shared. I actually thought we made a connection because of all of the eye contact and smiling that we shared too. Also, I was psyched to see you again when we agreed to meet the next day..."

You know, to make sure her BF knew what he was getting into.

I think there comes a point where you need to look at your behaviour. WHY are these the ones you are attracted to? Are you ignoring the shy single girls? Women who are WW/in relationships yet you are connecting to them.... they probably have one thing in common, and that is being somewhat aggressive in conversations, taking a lead, etc. If this is a consistent issue then you are missing the signals of single girls, or perhaps not being aggressive enough in your approach of them??

Well we danced to 94db electronic music mostly, hard to have a 2h conversation (with words).

When we went for a drink or moved to another stage we were talking ofcourse. About our experiences on the 3day-festival mostly. About music as we are both promotors in different genres. About jobs, food and travel to exotic locations
(damn, we have a lot in common actually)
No, the subject relationships did not came up at all.
Did not think to ask really.

Well, I did send her THAT message as soon as I got her friend-request; but I did not have a look at her page first! *stupid*

I know her boyfriend, he is a volunteer aswell. I send him a message today I had a good time dancing with his wife. That I did not know he had a girlfriend. He replied he was well informed she was going to dance with me... and said: "how can you not know my wife? She was at your parties all the time 8 years ago!"

Good one Alis!

It is true I like woman who are able to take lead!
But this is not a consistent pattern in my previous relationships though.

The first "WW" approached me & made an immediate emotional connection. Aggressive? Maybe. But after that I took lead, brought her to the bar and bought her a drink.

This last one was on my account: I wanted to dance with her as soon as we crossed eyes. I actually thought: I'll see her again at the afterparty tomorrow, we are going to dance there after a good rest.
But the opportunity arised earlier and I took it. Was she thinking the same thing and thus creating the opportunity? Probably.

Am I ignoring the shy girls? No.
I am picking up signals better than a couple of months ago,
a bit, but I still suck.
I actually approached several shy girls at the afterparty that were clearly enjoying themselves and were showing interest, but they were all too young and I just loose interest straight away.

True: I am not aggresive enough in approaching women. I am not shy to show interest but I catch myself hesitating in talking to them. Maybe I am waiting for signals too long...

Went on my 4th date today. One I was waiting 4 months on to happen and got cancelled every time.

She is a 31yr old sociologist (and phd student) whome I met in Thailand & spend 4 days with discovering deserted beaches with.

Beautiful, intelligent and has two feet on the ground. Has been single for a year after she broke up her 5 year relationship.

We talked and talked on our date for 4hours straight, since we didn't really speak eachother since Thailand 4 months ago that was no problem at all.

First thing I noticed: she looks incredible beautiful wearing clothes. I had never seen her wearing so much. :-)

Second thing I noticed:
was the dynamic between us was completely different than in Thailand.
I was a mental wreck back then in need of a holiday and some attention.
she just spend a couple of months trekking on her own through SE Asia and was completely ZEN with herself supporting a couple of sturdy boundaries.

Now the tables were turned it appeared and she was ready to have some of her needs met.
She smiled a lot, touched her neck and hair and her eyes were locked all the time.
Those things did not happen in Thailand at all.

At the end of our date her ex came up and apparently they are back together-ish.
But just when I was about to raise my red flag,
she adds the following. "I am doing research at work and according to my data I should date 37 people in order to meet the right guy.
But how can I have relationships with 37 people?"

I explained how I am trying to do just that thing with the help of MB and that they were suggesting 30 ppl.
She asked a lot of questions and I explained a lot of basic MB stuff.
Says she is bad in defending her boundaries but knows exactly what her needs are.
She was VERY interested to say the least...

She wants to see me back (fast! she added)

Have been dating 'the flirtatious model' this week.
Known her vaguely for ten years.
Met her again last weekend and she asked me to take her on a date. Said she had been waiting weeks for me to ask her out again.

Wednesday she asks me to join her to a party I was going to anyway. saw that two of her 'admirers' were taking her out so I refused to be her date. She asked me to dance once with her there instead. So we did and we planned to go out dancing on Saturday night in a different city so we wouldn't be disturbed by aquintences.

We started at her place, drove an hour to the capital and danced until morning. Drove back to her place. Decided we stay awake to enjoy the first real hot day in months and even spend 2 hours in complete comfortable silence sitting on a bench, basking in the sun.

Great date, I actually got to know this girl way better and had lots of fun doing it.

Great stuff, only 29 more ladies to go!

28! :-)

Got a message from my date last night:
Had a great time, really like you. Too bad you got a no-sex policy...

Welcome to Europe!

Hold your reserve, friend. Good job.

I was asked to DJ on a party this weekend and to my surprise, some women turned up I'd rather NOT see:
- My cheating ex (so much for plan B being in my hands*)
- Fianc� girl from festival
- 15yr in a relationship girl.

I felt akward the whole time, besides the usual 'stage anxiety'.

Did not talk to my ex ofcourse.
Good thing my date (the model) from last weekend dropped by to wish me good luck. Future wayward N�1 tried to have a deep conversation again, I did not take her bait this time. Made a new date with the model instead. HA!

I concentrated on my set and got the dancefloor going beserk to the point the other Dj's were coming to watch me spin from up close. The crowd was cheering everytime I mixed in a new record. Awesome to feel the energy of the dancefloor at your fingertips.


*plan B
I try to avoid being at the same places my ex is going to be and have been very succesful in implementing this. I check each party on fb to see if she is in the attending list, if she is I find an alternative. I do this to the point I am cancelling housewarming parties from friends. Things are different if I HAVE to be attending of course. I could stop this whole music thing or move to another city or even throw my drinks in my ex face everytime she shows up in the hope she will start avoiding me aswell.

Plan B is not working!

Sounds to me as if Plan B is not needed because you have successfully moved on!

I do not consider myself to be over her. I am moving on ofcourse, working on myself. But it still hurts everytime she shows up. The day after I am extremely angry again. It's the perceived disrespect that triggers it.
It takes a lot of contempt to actually show up at a party of your ex-partner you betrayed (or a lot of denial).

My projectfriend shares my opiinion and she visits my ex almost every week. "It's denial. she has only now started descending from her cloud and realising she does not know this guy really"

My projectfriend voiced her concerns over me dating 'The Model 'yesterday'.
She does not think she is right for me and said the model's sister is a narcistic hellspawn. (an opinion which I do share).

I reassured her I am not dating her exclusivly, I do have my own set of prejudice and I just want to know her better for now.
I know The model has a history of poor boundary control and a bad reputation, she honestly told me herself: she has not been NOT in a longterm relationship since her 17th birdday. the 26yr old model has changed one boyfriend for the next every three years. Except for the last six months, she has been single for the first time in her life. she always has a set of admirers surrounding her on every party, single or not.

I explained my projectfriend I want to keep dating her for now, as I am having fun and she is hitting some needs. I am learning slowly and the 28th other dates I am supposed to have, have not shown themselves for now. Neither has the model shown me any red flags while WE were on dates.

Seeing my ex back, set me back in my recovery for at least 3 weeks. Felt really agressive once again! Send her a mail to ask her to stop comming to parties where I cannot run, namely those I have to work on. Got some FOGGY mail back:
denial, denial, denial.

Did have a new date with a 30yr old architect.
Thought I was not her taste as I heared nothing for months after the first date in february (that went quite well imo). Apparently she has been cleaning up her act (her words) after our first date: stopped smoking, got rid of her lazy dayjob and hauled in a huge project as a contractor. Pretty impressive I must say. The date itself was a bit akward as it was in another city and I was not in my element bacause of the recent ex-stuff. The party was really crowded. Anyway, I got to meet her friends who were excellent and fun company.

I am still dating "the model" twice a week. We are really good as a team in the kitchen it appears. We pretty much improvise and prepare a 3 course vegan dinner within 20 minutes every time! Not the basic stuff: but original Indian or Thai dishes. Amazing actually.

She is clearly a people pleaser and a freeloader. Her mother more or less raised her as a freeloader. (Mom is having an affair at the moment.) She is doing a lot of self-reflection at the moment. She called me for advice one evening after she got in trouble with an "admirer" because of her poor boundaries and some white lies. I explained her what boundaries are, how it fits together with honesty and how it keeps one out of trouble. Made her clear that I do not accept anything but honesty from a date nomatter how bad the news. Her conclussion: "I was raised by a hippie and a jailbird, how was I supposed to figure that one out, I just want to please people"... I have since seen her setting a boundary for her hysterical sister and reap positive results. Maybe I am a fool trying to instill buyer principles on a freeloader...

As for self-reflection, I have been analysing my previous relations again. Found some old letters from my 1st relationship, did not have the guts to read them yet.

I found I have some trouble being a freeloader in some dating situations, need to remember myself I am/should be freeloading. Maybe grow some thicker skin.

I went on a date with a British woman!

A British girl from work invited me and 6 collegues for her housewarming party. she had 3 thirty something female friends over from the UK for the weekend. The plan was to visit a local club until morning. I started a conversation with one of them and ended up 'chaporoning' her until morning.

Unlike her three compatriates she was really elegant, gentle, caring and demonstrated a good set of boundaries.
While my collegues hit it off with the three other girls immediatly (!!!), we had fun dancing, observing and discussing the drama that was the result.
One of my married collegues said I was doing excellent and should 'do' her
*sigh*

She complimented me throughout the night. said I was a real gentleman that knows how to take a lady out on a date, unlike most of her dates in the UK. She was really impressed with my English aswell.
She was very good in meeting that need and she really made me feel special.

It was a real honour to take a classy Anglo-Saxon lady on a date, very educational and satisfying.

I learned to keep my mouth shut more often and listen. That asking a good question can be so much more meaningful than trying to get a conversation going. I don't need to join the testosterone gang to make an impression (what a relief!)

I learned I demonstrated much better behaviour (no DJ's) than my collegues and that it is attractive to woman with a good set of boundaries.

I should find more women like this to date! :-)

Great stuff, we English are the best :-)

The last couple of weeks I made an observations that convinced me even more of a MB-principle:
My young projectfriend's relationship is going to shambles.
He has to work hard for his career, she has a lot of exams.
They hardly see each other as they live in different cities,
their lovebanks are drained.

She has been feeling very guilty over the fact she has fallen out of love. She is afraid to tell her boyfriend.
I told her about the policy of radical honesty which she put into practice right away.

Guess what: They had a couple of very good conversations, she found out her relationship is not a one-way street and was released from her guilt.

She is studying psychology and understands the policy crystal clear now: She is part of a unit, hiding her feelings from the unit will make the unit break down and cause her stress & guilt. Radical honesty is the only way.

They are still at a stalemate in the negotiations of their future together:
He needs to stay in his city for his career. He has no diploma's yet has been chosen by a company to be trained as a manager, a real opportunity. He is very close with his family and it would hurt his family if he moved to another city.

She is still studying and cannot see a professional future in the rural region her boyfriend is living. She is already in another city than her own familly and the thought of moving even further away is agonising as her mother is recovering cancer. She had to rebuild her life once when she ran from home.

I keep repeating they have to find a solution that could be enthousiasticly agreed by both. But honestly, I cannot see how one could get out of this stalemate myself.

POJA is not easy.

How long have they been together? Are they living together?

They have been exclusive for 3,5 years, not living together... They see each other on weekends because of the distance.
The start of their relationship was based on chemistry and conversation.

She has put herself through a lot of personal change the last year. Became a vegetarian, lost 46-pounds, took a look at her own behaviour, stopped biting her nails, lost a few unhealthy coping mechanisms...
Her internship as a psychology-assistent speed up the proces even more...

The combination of not having their needs met, the personal change and the stalemate in the planning of their future, seems to be deadly for their relationship.

Would you say they are renters or buyers?

He is clearly a renter...
All sacrificing, all giver; without a single doubt. (love him)

It annoys the hell out of her. She hates the fact that he never takes his own feelings into account. It makes her feel insecure.
Her explaination is that he is not assertive enough, but I know it is the sacrificing she is REALLY bothered with.
She wants to be wanted: "When I cancel a date because I have to study, I sometimes wish he would get angry and pushed to see me instead of being so sweet and understanding everytime"

I think I know why she is so bothered with the sacrificing too:
She is a perfectionist and she is keeping score!
She knows she owes him big time and it makes her feel guilty.

That makes her a renter too then again,
Her planning is long term ("I want his babies") and she takes her own feelings into account... in all aspects of her life ever since I known her really. That mights aswell be a result of her childhood trauma.

I am not sure she had/has a buyer or a renters agreement, but I am sure it will be a freeloaders agreement soon...

"Something has to change and we both have no time to work on it."

Would she read Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders?

Not gonna be easy.

she has still a stack of books to read for school.
she detests religion or any derivative.
She hates the word marriage, as she projects all her childhood trauma on her parent's marriage...

'do not tell your date, you are up for marriage; they will think you are insane'...
Yet I know she would agree with all principles in it.
If I want her to read the book, I will have to arouse her curiosity first.

Went out to a retro-party with a male-friend, 10 years younger than me.
He enjoys the music from my youth as much as I do, his girlfriend is on holiday,
he likes to dance so I knew he would be an excellent "date". ;-)

The party was packed with at least 1500 people, age 30-50!!!
Met a lot of people which I haven't seen in years.

A 50-year old women approach me, after her daughter pointed me out.
The mother thanked me for introducing her daughter to underground music
& subculture 12 years ago. Said she could not handle her daughter before that.
That must have been the most unexpected (& doubtful) compliment in my life!
It made me feel really appreciated nevertheless :-)

My friend & I got really drunk and we danced like ecstatic fools until morning.
Normally I would behave myself, approach women on the dancefloor to have a chat.
But as I was too tipsy; I just introduced myself.
ask them their name and continued dancing as I was having too much fun. =)

I ended up with 2 dates!!!

Owww, "would-be-WayWard" was present too.
Told me she has a crush on me...
...and she has not been in a relationship for the last 5 years, which is a straight lie.
Stepped up to her boyfriend, told him exactly what she told me... and continued dancing.

So I learned something this week I think:

While some people, such as my 'project-friend' and myself will go all "introverted" when needs are not met,
others such my ex and "would-be-wayward" will project their unmet needs onto another person,
making them the object of their affection ("extroverted").

Would be nice to know how to spot the difference while I am on dates...

I went on a date with my 21-year old volunteer-partner after she asked me out on facebook!
The party was on the couryard of a medieval castle surrounded by moats in the middle of nature! Some 1500 people were attending and put their tents near the water as the party was non-stop, whole weekend.

The date did not went as planned as the organiser asked us to help out as they were running out of parking space and volunteers. So we put on a security vest, took post at the road & guided arrivals in the middle of the night.
It was very quite and very dark.

We had a candle, 2 cocktails and discussed Russian literature, her studies, her family and why we always end up helping out others.
She then decided she wanted to help out the organiser, took charge of the team of 30 adult volunteers for the rest of the weekend!
I drove her home sunday evening, she was asleep on the backseat as she worked non-stop from saturday night to sunday afternoon.

That sounds great

My projectfriend came to my door crying.

Her boyfriend busted her lovebank two times last week.
He had two opportunities to hit her needs big time and managed to make it even worse. *sigh*

His behaviour (as reported by her) did strike me:
It's the last 2 weeks of work before the holidays and things are real hectic at work. He knows his gf has been struggling the last couple of months and he is aware his relationship is in peril...

HE IS STALLING THE PROBLEM UNTIL HIS HOLIDAY.
but instead of comforting her and postponing the discussion formally... he IGNORES the problem!

and eventually he ignored her this week.

BIG mistake as my projectfriend's core childhood wound is the rejection/neglect of her father.
She said she exploded with anger and threw her phone at the wall. He got her on her "electric fence" by text-message!!! when all he had to do was to validate her feelings to make a HUGE love-deposit.

Postponing until holiday*
I did that too in my last relationship.
Lesson learned (again)

I think I am starting to grasp the psychology behind my projectfriends behaviour too (after knowing her for 5 years)

She tried her best to CONTROL her boyfriend (by being dominant) and to steer him away from her biggest FEAR which is REJECTION. Now she is mature enough to lower her defences and to release control, he (unknowingly) drives her straight into her electric fence resulting in ANGER.

Her top emotional need is VALIDATION
yet I know it is not listed here... or is it?

Dr Harley calls it Admiration.

Admiration scores high on my personal list of EN too but
I think there is a slight difference between the type of admiration she needs and I need.

She needs the comforting type of admiration, the validation of emotions: "it's normal & ok to feel like you do in that situation".
While I need comfirmation of my actions and decisions in the long term. "I think you have made the right decision", "that was a good move".
:-)

Anyway, apparently I applied these 5 steps naturally:
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-squeaky-wheel/201106/the-antidote-anger-and-frustration

I might not be as bad as I think in human interaction.

Two weeks of holiday� week 1

My projectfriend ended her relationship.

The two dates I 'scored' at the party did not want to meet.
One said I was 'too courtious' to her taste,
the other one confessed she was in a relationship (LOL).
So far on trying to date 30-somethings�

A 25-yr old friend which I've known well from the music scene, quit her REBOUND relationship.
6 years ago I adviced her to drop 2 years of art-college and to study 5 yrs of psychology at uni instead .
She graduated with honours 2 months ago.

Nevertheless, we have always had a 'head-to-head' bond as she is very intelligent,
yet wanted to explore the edges of what is socially exceptable:
Hooked up with wrong characters, drugdealers, addicts, anti-social personalities etc.
Skipped classes to attend medicine and neuro-psychology classes on the side�
to hand in papers on the benefits of using illegal drugs to treat depression in the psy-department.

I always challenged her academic and romantic choices,
throwing disrespectful judgements at her everytime we met at a party. Guess we were eachothers dislikers for 6 years�

The last year she went through some personal change. Cleaned up her act after her internship at a psychiatric ward.

Last week we ended up at her place with some friends and we had 8-hour a non-stop conversation.
We both dropped our defenses for the first time and shared the prejudices/resentments we had with eachothers behaviour the past 6 years� shared the admiration we had for eachother too.

After the radical honesty and emotional catharsis, instinct took over and we ended up in bed.
We had the most incredible sex we've experienced in our lives. We spend the rest of the week together.

Not very MB-like.
The energy between us is incredible, yet very scary for me as it opened up the can of worms that my ex left me�

I am abroad this week with friends, dealing with my newly surfaced aftermath of my ex.
I am not ready at all, she knows.

Gerald you are great at meeting women.
But what are you looking for long term?

Fascinating thread - nice to see another MB journey unfold.

I am new to these principles but I have found them incredibly helpful.

My picker has been completely off my whole adult life.
I can see that now.

I had no idea what elements created a healthy long-term relationship/marriage.

Although most of the emotional needs I intuitively understood - my problem area was really the love busters.

I also never chose any man who would have ever been able to commit to POJA, even though if I would have been introduced to this concept I would have agreed happily to it. It has been more of a shock that I am allowed to be enthusiastically happy about mutual decisions. Most of the time I have tried to make sure the man I am with is happy. POJA has been a wonderful discovery.

Gerold it is nice to see someone around my age taking these principles to heart. It would seem we have a similar back ground too. I went to an outdoor party recently and I swear it is the last one I will go to. Personally I have had enough of that scene now. Instead of dancing I sat around the fire counselling people!

I am certain if I would have been introduced to these principles in my teens I would have got them. I was definitely different from my peers and I can see I had more of a buyers mentality. But I had no guidance what-so-ever and I adopted the renters and freeloaders ways out of cultural conditioning.

The thought of dating 30 people is a bit much though! Like you have mentioned it's not really something that is in European culture.

Thanks for your honest posts.

Another thing the marriage builders principles have given me is a real sense that it is possible to create what my heart desires.

I had really lost hope inside that this was possible. Now I feel I have been introduced to tools that will really work.

Even if I have only currently looked at the instruction manual!

The thought of going out on a date with 30 people may be daunting. But if you count group dates you probably have been out with 30 potential partners before. If there was something that stood out about one it would catch your attention.

Thanks Livy, glad another European discovered MB!
Please do not take me as an example of MB-principles, It is hard to translate them to "European"
That is why I do lengthy posts.
I failed the MB principles on dating last week�

I am terrible at meeting NEW people, Jedi
My problem is that I am trying too hard to sell myself.
That makes me look insecure and needy to strangers.
My future plans are to discover my own emotional needs first
and to learn how I my behaviour changes when they are not met.

We do not have a real dating culture in my country.
(Strangers hardly go for coffee-meetup's)
In order to have a real date, people have to 'know' you first.
Meaning you have to have friends in common and go on group dates really.
Dates can be selected from this pool of friends.
(But then things usually go fast from there as you probably noticed)

So far I dated 8 women in 8 months� 2 of those were NEW people.
The rest I have known FOR YEARS from the music scene or through friends.
Some of these dates are not even relationship material!

NewEveryDay: I do have my reservations about group dates � It might be great to meet people and have fun.
But it is not that good in order to discover your own emotional needs or those of others.
Conversations are casual and superficial most of the time.
People tend to hide in a group, some play a role.

Psychology-girl and I have been negotiating last night through internet on how to take a step back now.
We discovered there is chemistry between us and that I am still suffering from the fallout from my previous relationship.
She does not want to become my rebound & neither do I.

We have been brainstorming boundaries over the internet� POJA-style!
(I did not need to explain!)
Goal: dating, discovering emotional needs without ending up in bed together.

Enthousiastic (external) boundary 1: Future dates in company of other people.

Backup plan: 4 weeks of no contact if we end up in bed again.

Sleeping around seems to be the norm these days.

Discovering emotional needs without ending up in bed together is difficult! It is not what many people are used to. I think Europe's sexual liberation has caused some pretty major issues.

As most people are expecting to end up in bed fast,
holding back on physical needs (as a single guy),
tends to get weird while dating over a longer period here in Western Europe.

You can explain your true intensions all you want,
perceived rejection is right around the corner...
I even had my hetero sexuality questioned after a date that went very well.

Wait, wait, wait...


So, are you stating that due to "cultural differences" between the States and European countries that human relationship psychology doesn't apply... but, "rebound relationships" are exempt and universal?



This program is about human behavior, not nation of origin or culture. A statement like "MB doesn't translate into European" is patently ridiculous. More like "MB doesn't translate into geroldmodel, because I don't want to."


This program wasn't built off of a 40 year observation of a little old couple from Poughkeepsie, NY, USA. It is universally applicable.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8101_ambm.html

HHH - is that how you interpreted what Gerold said?
That is not how I took it.

Maybe its the same in the states but in western Europe a girl is holding back if she doesn't give it out on the third date!! (Not in religious circles though)

Gerold I have questioned my ex's sexuality but there were deeper reasons for me doing that than the fact he did not try to have sex with me over a two year period. But they are personal reasons not for me to share here.

I think it is really hard to commit to no sex before marriage, even though I get the importance of it. I am not religious and so I don't have that to explain my choice.

Also if you are getting close to someone emotionally, having sex with them can feel a very natural desire at times.

I am excited about the psychology behind MB HHH I think it is universal. That does not mean that there are not some cultural differences and that in Europe the culture of dating is different.

HoldHerHand, that is not what I wrote (at all)
I do get the message: Stick with the program!
No more sex during dating.

But it did happen: I followed my feelings & instinct at the moment and it felt natural although it was unexpected for the both of us.
I did have a emotional backlash a week later and we put boundaries in place together to prevent it from happening again.

I realise Psy-girl and I are out of the "friend-zone" now forever & that we created an account in each other's love bank after 6 years.

She hit me hard with "honesty & openess" & I surrendered at "affection & care".
I had no idea.
Sorry

Radio Clip on Opposite Sex Friendships

Hey thanks BrainHurts!
This show is about Tina who is married and is developing feelings for a co-worker because her emotional needs are not met.
She is not happy in her marriage:

"She wants her husband to be genuinely happy, not depressed
She wants her husband to be her best friend, meet her emotional needs and avoid lovebusters.
She has the right to DEMAND some changes from her hubby."
...according to the Harley's.

This is exactly what my "project-friend" wants from her
(now ex-) boyfriend:
She wants him to grow a spine and start living on his own instead of with his parents.
She wants him to be assertive and to be a MAN.

My "project-friend" expressed an additional emotional need to me, one I heared on a date aswell recently.
I cannot link it to any EN's here on the board:

She has the feeling she has to be in CONTROL of her life all the time, both at home and at work.
She is a perfectionist in every way and takes lead whenever she get's the opportunity. She is quite well at it too!
BUT
On a romantic level she wants the COMPLETE OPPOSITE!
She wants to be wanted, be swept of her feet and to have her CONTROL TAKEN AWAY COMPLETELY...
She knows she is attracted to "bad boys" and vulnerable to predators because of this need.

Any ideas?

Had another date with the 30yr old Phd-student I met in Thailand.
We negotiated a bbq in the park; I prepared a Thai dinner/picnic
as she did not have time to make it to the store on the way from work.
She asked me to buy an extra bottle of wine, which she said would pay ofcourse.

Out of the blue, she invited two of her 30-something engaged girlfriends.
They had a wonderful time.
I didn't.

"psychology girl" texted me asking on how my date was going?
That I was welcome at her place if I was bored/frustrated.
I was.

I respectfully cut the date short after 4 hours of nonsense.
Phd-woman excused herself for not having money to pay me back the bottle of wine.
She did not really seem to care either� good riddance!

Spend the rest of the evening with 'psychology girl'� and fell asleep alone, in my own bed.

Phd-woman was the last 30-something in my dating pool�
Of all my dates, these were by far the most difficult dates to find AND the most disrespectful and frustrating ones.

Thinking about stopping this dating thing for a couple of months. Had enough disrespect for the rest of the year!

Hi Gerold,
i'm a little confused..,
why would you be upset with a woman who did not want to pay for a bottle of wine?
If financial support is a need for most women, then paying for wine on a date does not seem such a big deal.

Also I get this feeling that you are looking in the wrong direction, but it is a gut feeling so I can't explain it. You seem so hooked on intelligence and proving that you know intelligent women, am I wrong in this assumption?

There is just something off in the way you are handling all of this, that I can't put my finger on...

I'm not being funny, and I am sure I have something off in the way I deal with men too...which is why I am single...

Can anyone else here explain what I am picking up on??

I get the feeling she wanted him to pick up the extra bottle of wine for HER FRIENDS that she invited on a date!! She brought her friends on a date?? OH BOY!!

That is not a good sign at all, gerold.

Melody you are so experienced with all this - I am sure you are right.

I would not take my friends on a date - not that I go on dates
I just find it a little strange when guys complain about spending money on dates - esp the price of a bottle of wine.

I would NEVER pay for a date myself, so I agree with you! But how rude of her to bring her friends!! I could be wrong but I thought that was why she told him she would pay for the wine and is why he rightly expected it. I think she was extremely disrespectful. At least he found that out right away!

This is what I perceived also.

Not a good sign to bring 2 others uninvited on a date. I'm surprised Gerold put up with it for 4 hours.

well I agree, I would not take two of my friends on a date...
maybe this woman just wanted to get her friends some free wine..

I still think there is something off in Gerolds perception, I also think there is something off in mine too...

I am saying this because I want to crack the dating code.

I am a woman of similar age to Gerold, from Europe. I want to learn to be a buyer, and when I read some of Gerolds posts I would be turned off, why is this?

Gerold please do not be offended.

Ofcourse I am not offended Livy. :-)
I am here to grow and learn.
I appreciate other people commenting
on my observations and mindset.

To answer your remark: Yes,
There could be something wrong with my perception.
I am still hurting from my ex, without a single doubt.
As a result I am really sensitive about honesty & openess.

I have absolutly no problem paying for a date.
What I do mind is when a date asks me to buy her something
and promises to pay me back and doesn't!!!

Maybe it's the whole freeloading thing and I should brush those things off;
the thing is: I promised to be emotionaly honest to myself in the future
and when somebody breaks their word after a couple of dates, it hurts me!

I dated girls who asked me to lend them some money while on a date,
even if I offered to pay for the whole thing.
But they insisted and wired me money back 2 or 3 weeks later,
leaving me a nice message on my bankaccount statement.
I like that!

I am going with my gut feeling on this one... NEXT!

My "project-friend" asked me to join her on a party tonite
as she is studying for her exams again and needs some relief.
I declined at first this morning, making a DJ on the expected age at that party!!!
(=frustration!!!)
but I apologised later today, made her dinner and told her I'll pick her up.
She said she needs some validation, admiration and an assertive guy to keep the drunk & horny fella's off.
check! :-)

Yes I'm sure your gut feeling is right.
I am a bit puzzled about asking to borrow money on a date, why would anyone go on a date and ask their date to lend them money? baffled.
Anyway I am new to the principles here at MB - but they make sense to me.
I have always been thrown by this whole love and relationship thing!
Why/how people can fall in and out of love?
It all makes a bit more sense to me understanding these principles.

I might get smacked for this one, but...


Can we say friend zoned?

Yes you made a really good observation, Lily! Thank you.
I am trying to compensate -I think- as it is the one compatibility I neglected in all three relationships; i meet a lot of intelligent people and I am keen to proove myself (and the internet) that they make mistakes too... This is me, trying to forgive myself or something.

I don't quite understand what you mean.
Could you explain a little more?

I read all MY posts in this thread and you are right! I am trying to prove the world I am dating intelligent people.
This is me compensating for something that was wrong in my previous relationships: we were not intellectually compatible.
So I try to date intelligent people to compensate.

I found out other things about myself that have changed in 11 months: I no longer shut my mouth if someone hurts my feelings... I speak up! Some people in my direct surroundings cannot deal with this situation AT ALL! My brother thinks I am going insane: he is not used that I speak out if he says or does something that hurt my feelings. He starts to immaturely "act-out" if I respectfully say how I feel.

Two of my best friends invited my ex and me to the same party...I left. I wrote a note and my friends wrote back they no longer want to respect my boundary of me not wanting any contact with my ex. They think I should get over my hurt and face the fact my ex will be around on future get-togethers... This has upset me a lot last week and I think I will let them know this week, I will no longer be attending get-togethers as it hurts me too much seeing her. Other friends are concerned this strategy of maintaining my boundary will leave me with little friends... So am I.

Today I drove "psychology girl" to the airport. She was really anxious on getting her flight so I proposed to drive her. On the way my GPS lost power on the highway and something happened: I honestly expressed my feelings: "I am really anxious on getting lost now". She responded by saying she was getting really nervous as she missed so many flights in the past. We stopped at a gasstation and bought a new recharger; we got there with plenty of time left... I helped her check in and accompanied her to the security gate. There was no stress at all.

What COULD have been an extremely stressed out situation - I remember some drama at airports in previous relationships - was avoided by expressing feelings.
There was no "soothing", "reassuring", "blaming", "wreckless driving" or anything needed... "this is how we feel and why, now face the problem and negotiate how to deal with it."

That was breath takingly refreshing.

I certainly have not read all the posts, but I have to say that from what I have read, I get a distinctly different impression than what you stated above.

My perception, perhaps wrong, is that you are mostly meeting women who have issues - drugs, addictions, unresolved issues, or partiers. I am not seeing you looking for or meeting the "girl-next-door" types - normal, together, professional.

I see you constantly report about how great a party was, how long into the night you danced, how many (married) women were making a move on you, how great the hookup was. And I am not one to judge, perhaps that is the type of guy you are - but that certainly does not seem to me to be the best way to meet quality women.

I think that's what Livy was referring to earlier, when she said that she is getting the sense that you are looking in the wrong direction - I think so too.

So I am surprised to see you say that you are looking for intelligent women first and foremost. I dunno, maybe I am missing something, but I think you are on the wrong track, given your past reports. What do you think?

AGG

Yes AGG, I am going out and I visit all sorts of parties and I meet all sorts of women. Most of them have issues or are in a relationship. (Yes, I am a judging type and sticking to my guns) All true. However, that does not mean I am not looking for the girl-next-door...

Where are they?
Am I fishing in the wrong pool? Perhaps.
But as far as I can see, with the exception of datingsites, I do not really see an alternative really.

I am not meeting any women at work (I am in IT)
the women I do meet at work, have either issues or are foreigners on a visit.

I have dated about 10? people this year.
If I am to meet 37 dates without going to parties, I am going to be a bachelor for a very long time. :-)

What do you suggest?

Yes do tell where these women are

I don't know where they are, but I can tell you where they most likely are not: at all-night rave parties. I could be wrong of course, but my money is on girls-next-door being elsewhere.


Well, from my experience, I also did not come across eligible women in my daily life, so I did in fact turn to dating sites. And I found there the woman I married.

So why are you saying "with the exception of dating sites"? I think that these days, there are plenty of quality people on these sites, much more so than before, or than you'll find at wild parties.

AGG

Ah, now I get it!
AGG, I am not looking for the girls-next-door on rave dancefloors!
I think there is some cultural thing going on here. Most parties here last until morning.
Housewarmings, BBQ's, even the 10 day city streetfestival goes on until 9AM. :-)
I do bookings and some volunteering at raves and backstage I get to meet an occacional girl-next-door helping out the organiser.

As for internetdating... I might be biased.
I had 1 internet date: A woman who had a very cryptic personal description in the form of a poem.
As I was intriged I found the poem and send her a message with the rest of the poem in it.

We met up and she said she was on that dating site for a full year and not a single person had the idea to find the poem online. She said I was the first to pass the test.

We dated 2 times and I gave up after it became apparent she did not want to work for the rest of her life as she just came back from working 12 years in China.

She deleted her dating account after our first date as she was really disappointed with the male IQ on that datingsite...

I believed her and did not give the datingsite another look.

I am getting better in reading people's needs and feeling a lot more confident on dates. Had a couple of dates with a 30+ IT manager I met at the city festival this summer.
This women knows what she wants and has been sizing me up since the first date.

We had our 4th date this weekend and I am starting to notice this woman can be very dominant & controlling. Although she is quite anxious and nervous in the beginning of a date, once the ice has melted she appears to become VERY confident. There is hardly any negotiation! This woman has a strange hold over me and it's freaking me out.

Psychology girl said she is falling in love with me and wants to take a step back as I do not want to date her exclusivly yet. She hates the idea I am dating other people.
She meets some of my needs perfectly, but I am not in love. She is one of the few dates that actually was mature enough to be honest about her feelings and knows how to negotiate respectfully. Although she is leaving the door open, I hate to see her go.

You know that anyone can learn to negotiate respectfully don't you? Actually once you have learned how to be honest and open, nothing else will do. Most of us were not fortunate enough to see that process as children in our own families but it is really just such a win win strategy that anyone with sense will use it once they see how it works.

Hey Living_well, thanks for the reply.
I was lucky to be raised by my parents to be honest & open, except when it came to emotional honesty:
Somehow they taught me to walk on eggshells when expressing my own NEGATIVE feelings. Probably because I was the eldest and had to set an example for my brothers...

When I read the definition of "honesty & openess" on MB last year, I saw that "emotional honesty" was missing in my behaviour. So that was the first thing I changed!

I seriously doubt I would be capable (or willing) to teach a 30+ date how to be honest and open now.
I am done fixing people.

Great catch!


You are dead right about not fixing people. But you can show someone who is already fundamentally open and honest how to negotiate respectfully. It can be learned in the very earliest days of a relationship by using it to decide how to spend your time together.

My young volunteer friend texted me to meet for a drink after her Russian class.
I just came home from work, had no plans and was flattered she asked me on a date.
However I did not feel like going out without a dinner�
With a couple of text messages we enthousiasticly agreed to have dinner at my place first & go for a drink afterwards.

She was a bit late but she seemed to be dressed up for the first time since I've known her.
It was the first time she visited my place and she felt comfortable in no time.

While I made dinner we discussed prehistoric history and evolutionary psychology; food and migration.
She was fishing for a compliment and I responded to that�
She even encouraged me to continue and explained to me it was one of her top emotional needs.
:-)

We went out to one of her friends birthdayparty and it is clear guys her age are all over her.
She enjoyed the attention respectfully without neglecting her date or being clingy.
Gave me a compliment that I am not hitting on her like that and I take my time to get to know her,
she finds that very attractive. I felt really at ease considering I was at a party with people at least 10 yrs younger.

This girl is so smart and has a way with people it is hard to believe she is only 22.
I dropped her off at her place after a real enjoyable time.
This was the most spontanous date in 12 month and it felt completely normal & natural.

She has this youthfull energy and innocence combined with self confidence and a pair of brains,
it is hard not to notice her sparkle!

I want pictures!

AGG

lol, I translated a European expression to English quite poorly.
Funny though!

So a year has passed since the breakup and winter has started again in Europe.

I am still feeling awful when I come back from work to an empty home. I am anxious and feel quite lonely often.
It's hard to get up in the morning and get myself to make the 1,5h drive to work. My work gives me little or no satisfaction anymore.

The anger I had since the affair of my ex has faded away though. The sex and affection during the romance this summer got that out of my system somehow. Discovered that SF is my top emotional need and it makes all anxiety and depression symptoms go away for at least a couple of days.

My goal was to discover my own emotional needs with the MB books as a reference and I think I have learned a lot.
I've dated about 10 women this year and I see how dating several people regulary gives a better insight into compatibility and emotional needs.

Honesty & openess score really high as well as validation and care. Funny enough all dates I've asked valued my H&O and validation as my top qualities too.

It took me a LOT of time & effort to get 10 dates though.
Most of my social interactions this year were with women.
Offline dating in Europe is much more difficult and less casual as from what I read on the forums here.
There are no coffee dates here!
Who-knows-who is somehow important in these parts.

Anyway, it's time for me to figure out
what I want to do with the rest of my life and start implementing the changes toward that.

My contract ended today and I booked a
flight to Southeast Asia leaving next week returning in 2014.
Hope to get the last bit of healing done.

What countries are you visiting?
I'm glad you're enjoying SF but be careful

I am going to Thailand, Birma/Myanmar & maybe Laos too...

I very much doubt I will be having any SF as I am leaving soon, but thanks for the warning Jedi. I know condoms are not 100% safe, but it is the best protection around when it does happen.

I arrived in Thailand, same village as last year, living at a female friend's compound who lives & works here;
She spends only 2 nights a week on-shore so she asked me to arrange transport and accomodation for 2 other female friends of her that are on holiday here: both single, childless, exactly my age and from my hometown.

All set & done, I met the ladies on the beach and after a beer, they told me they wanted to meet our mutual friend in the evening and spend their last week relaxing with some, sun, beach and a party.
They were planning to go to another tourist trap within a day or two�

As I know this village, speak a bit of Thai; I saw an opportunity here� :-)
Instead of making DJs about the destinations they had planned, I was going to BLOW their mind within an afternoon!
Having them to stay and show them the best time of their holiday here�

I took them a bit further up the beach to get a full Thai body massage with me for an hour.
We got discount prices as I am a regular and was bringing them much needed work.

Took them to a beachbar where I know the personel and the regulars�
I knew the Thai owner and some of the expats were going to flirt with these women straight away! :-)
We watched a gourgeous sunset together and even got a ride on a motorcycle to our mutual friends place from the barowner.

I made a BBQ as the women catched up with our mutual friend.
Our landlord joined us and proposed them a 3 day kayaking trip deep within the jungle, off the beaten track:
Both girls asked me to join them! :-)

As the kayaks were two-seaters, I got to go on "dates" with both of them�

Good times!

Great!

I've been in Thailand for 2 months now... and I am going to stay here until (at least) the rainy season in may.

The small community here has an incredible hospitality & they are teaching me Thai language & culture. I have been taking some of the freelance work they are offering me and enjoyed it a lot.

I had no idea I was so unhappy at home and I have no reason to go back anyway.

Returning in a couple to arrange some stuff back home...

So, I got back home from Thailand and realised I am suffering from a depression/identity crisis.
I have no energy, hate the idea of going back to work & pretty much procrastinate on EVERYTHING.
My line of work ruined ALL of my relationships, because I am a perfectionist and it absorbes me completely.
I have to find some new Cheese in life & thus far Thailand seems like the best option to be happy and do some introspection.

My ex seems to have spoiled the well with my best friends of 15 years since the cheating 1,5yrs ago.
They all believe she did not cheat on me...
They think I should reconcile with her as she is part of the social circle now
and my plan to not go to events with my friends where my ex is, isolated my from my peers.
EXPOSURE & PLAN B was an ABSOLUTE FAILURE for my social life & brought me nothing but more depression!!!!!!

So I went to parties with them the last 2 months, with my ex present.
She resented the fact that I showed up and I got pats on the back from my friends to show up.
Her relationship with her POS is going down the drain from what I hear (hehe) & her own friends are all moving away.
She seems to recuperate all of my friends to compensate.

Some of the dates of last summer blew up in my face:

- My young "volunteer friend" of 22yrs old invited herself to my bed. Had sex with me & went pretty much radio silent after that.
I apologised, said it was a mistake; but she said she initiated it & has to concentrate on her studies.

- IT manager of 30yrs, invited herself to my bed after paying me a late night visit, jumped me & went NC after that.

- One of the Kayak girls of 36yrs old from my hometown which I met in Thailand, kissed me, invited myself to my bed
(her friend scored a Thai boy that night and needed their hotel room)
Although I said I wanted to get to know her better instead of having sex, she said she was not willing to wait for me to return home.
We had sex, had a very romantic date on a beautiful deserted beach, had sex again...
and after that she said she was very depressed in general and did not want to hurt my feelings.
Said I was the first guy, she liked in the last 5yrs. She was glad everything still worked down below & thanked me for the favour.
Both girls paid me a visit back home this month and want to take me out, so I can meet more people my age.
At least I made some new friends! :-)

Since I returned from Thailand I started internet dating:

- One girl, 38yrs old interrogated me - although I was completely honest and open. It made me feel like being in a police interrogation instead of a date.
She did not reveal a single thing about her life, was very closed and was angry I did not contact her again.

- Had a fantastic first date with a 36yr old girl, we went on a second semi-date: "I'll be at this party this weekend, perhaps we meet there"
Once there she seemed to be on another date with a guy who was pretty disrespectful to her. Once we got talking, she seemed very absent & anxious.
She asked me to call her, but I never did. Her anxiety was a huge turnoff for me although I did not have a problem of her being on another date.
(I had brought a informed dancing partner myself in case she wouldn't show up.)

Pretty much stopped internet dating for now.

Since Thailand, I have become more open & honest than ever - which is the norm in Thailand -
and seem to have gained the ability to dissolve women's initial defenses within a 15 minute span.
I got a lot of hugs from strangers as I seem to improved on my intimate conversation, but as for getting a date out of that... no luck.

Will be returning to Thailand in a couple of weeks... for a couple of months.
The climate and the openess of the community seems to dissolve my depression over there.
Will be exploring some business opportunities, improve my Thai & do some more introspection.

Being cheated upon, is the worse experience in my life.
Discovering Thai & Boudhist culture has opened my eyes how f*cked up Western culture actually is.
I am sure the sun & culture over there, will wash the depression away.

Sir, Dr. Harley designed Plan B to aid in marital recovery. It didnt apply to you; your girlfriend is a renter.
You can Plan A to build romantic love with a woman, but Plan B is designed to protect a betrayed spouse during an affair.
Cheating is accepted by the public in renter type relationships, as evidenced by your so called friends who isolated from you and did not have consideration of your feelings of being around her.

My cousin liked Thailand, he actually moved there and went into business.

Gerald, I have been following a website you may like.
It is called "Art of Manliness" and has helped me during low parts of my life;
The Bible and Atlas Shrugged have also literally lifted me out of near depression.

Plan B was not in "invented" by Dr. Harley, Jedi
ALL psychologists would recommend the same in love-triangles: marriage or not. Cheaters will be cheaters; and if your reputation in a "social circle" crumbles by the testimony of a c*ck-whopping wh*re, you have a much more fundamental problem: I do, I realise now. My friends could not handle the exposure, which is in fact the destruction of someone's reputation. I was quite succesful in achieving that.
My friends thought that was very mean of me & are punishing me for it. I have seen the same thing happen with a married friend with children, whose husband cheated on her for 5 years. She exposed and lost 80% of her social circle.

As for my picker:

The pattern in ALL my relationships & recent dates: is the lack of a good male role-model in the life of my partners/dates:

- My first girlfriend suffered from Borderline personality disorder: her father died when she was 3 & her mother had a terrible relationship with her own father. Somehow she passed her hatred for men to her daughter. Quite succesfully. She emotionally abused me, until I started to read up on psychology. She threatened with suicide when I was ready to leave.

- My ex's grandfather was an ex-cop and hated women in general. I hold his hand when he blew out his last breath on his deadbed as his own children couldn't handle it & left him to die waiting outside while the doctors turned off the life-support machines.
My ex's father was very dissappointed in his daughter in general which undermined her self-esteem in her childhood.
It took my 3 years to pump up her self-worth and when she finally grew a spine, she projected all her hatred of her father on me... by stabbing me in the back & starting cheating with an absolute loser she could control.
Her father last words of support to me were: "She never finished anything in her life, I am so sorry".

- The model I dated last year: father with anti-social personality disorder, he spend his life in jail. Mother learned her she should never marry. The model has a histrionical personality disorder: she has a compulsion to seek attention, especially from males. I was quick enough to see it before she could wrap me around her finger.

- Volunteer partner girl, same thing: jailbird father. Although she did not have a psychological backlash from that (as far as I could see) she was quite passive aggressive towards men.

- Phd-girl I met in Thailand last year: manic-depressive father who committed suicide. She coped by controlling the men in her life. Tried the bottle of wine thing with me, I knew enough.

- Psychology girl hates her father. Her reaction to this is to NEVER be a buyer. She selects her partners to learn things she is interested in. Once she had learned the things she needed to know, she disposed of her partners quite harshly: told it was over & went plan B. She fell in love with me, or so she said. She was pretty spiteful I rejected her, because marriage was out of the question for her (ever)... 3 months later she is engaged to an alcoholic and a diagnosed BPD.

- IT manager: Alcoholic father, very controlling.

- Last but not least: my project friend: psychopatic father. Beat his wife infront of his toddlers. Used rohypnol to drug his wife and his wife's sister and raped them both while passed out. Needless to say my best female friend suffers from severe control issues. It's a small wonder she survived her childhood without developing a personality disorder.
Her latest love interest is a young guy who's girlfriend hanged herself after their last fight... fingers crossed!

My guess is I am a male role model. I am the eldest of 2 brothers and in every job I had I was made teamlead or manager within a couple of months. Pioneered a subculture and consulted multinationals on IT the last 10 years. Made them sh*tloads of money. I do not have a problem with being a leader, teacher or being a provider...
BUT IT DID NOT BRING ME ANY HAPINESS IN MY LIFE.
I attract fatherless women like flies on honey.

If I meet normal women, they bore me... we are not intellectually compatible: fatherless women seem to compensate that for me in the past I guess.

Ayn Rand??? Try to work 10 years in multinationals: all executives love ATLAS SHRUGGED and believe me: 90% of them are narcistic or psychopatic A-holes.
Did you see the MAD MEN shows??? EXACTLY! :-)

The Bible: I was actually a Catholic churchboy, helping during ceremony when I was 6. Did it for 2 years and absolutly loved it, my parents though I was crazy but supported me nevertheless. Not that the stories of Jezus in school had a big impression on me, his teachings felt quite natural and normal to me... but the mythical atmosphere of a 300 year old church building had an overwhelming attraction on me.

The priest was one of the role models who made a lasting impression on me. He was a warm, gentle character who loved children. He was very supportive of us being children. One time he gave us what was left of the wine after the ceremony!

He thought me Catholic religion and the church as an institution are a SCAM, although the teaching of Jezus are well worth learning. He retired as a priest of a nunary... ;-)
His succesor was a strict, controlling authority figure who did not like children at all... I quit at age 8 and endured 10 more years of Catholic education in school by various dysfuntional people.

5 years ago I started reading the original bible. Starting with the Old Testament. I learned of a spiteful god who ordered the murder & burning of entire villages...
I don't think I burned my bible, but had it recycled with the rest of my paper garbage I think.

No offence Jedi. I respect your believes and I am glad it helped you out of depression.

I'll try my luck with Boudhism... not as a religion, but as a filosophy. I've seen the results of Boudhism throughout South-East Asia and the sense of community & togetherness is WAY better than in Western society from my view.

The idea of getting rid of suffering seems like a very good alternative to suffer for the sake of others. Been there, done that!

Have you watched the Kung Fu television series?
It played in the 60's, starring David Carradine.

No, that was before my time and they didn't to reruns in Europe.
I did however see "The master" show with Lee Van Cleef
:-)

You may want to watch old Kung Fu episodes online.
But start with the first one, because they are in order.
It had Buddhism in it.
I've watched the entire series.

What a week!

One of my best friends relationship -they both LOVE to hang out with my ex now- is on the verge of explosion because of serial infidelity, I heared today. This is going to hit my "social circle" REALY HARD as there is a 1,5year old involved and the fallout will be ENORMOUS. I will cease to be the only single bitter A-hole who holds a grudge against infidelity and WayWards.

4 years ago, I warned this friend for her soon to be ex partner when they were still dating. She wouldn't listen ofcourse and I respected her choice nevertheless. We've hardly seen each other the last couple of years ofcourse;
but I will be there for her when she needs me... and she will.
My WW ex will not be a credible source of comfort I guess.

As an update for my past dating year:

Volunteer girl and Psychology girl BOTH announced their ENGAGEMENT this week... only a couple of months since I dated both of them! Marriage hardly EVER happens in this part of Europe... so I was quite shocked!

Psychology girl EXPRESSED to me she would NEVER BE MARRIED when we were dating 4 months ago. Volunteer girl wanted to study instead of getting in a relationship...
HAVE THEY BOTH LOST THEIR MINDS?

It get's even worse.

As by a strike of lightning I met the ex of the soon to be husband of Psychology Girl. Never met her before, but we had the most incredible intimate conversation 2 perfect strangers could ever have. What are the odds.

Apparently the soon to be husband had a crush on Psychology girl while he was still in the 10 year relationship with her!!! She disconnected emotionally from him because he refused to be a buyer on top of having a crush on someone else... The girl fled in the arms of a lesbian woman... She felt she could not emotionally connect with men for a while, although she knows she is hetero sexual without a single doubt. She is dating guys again ofcourse.

HOWEVER:
Soon to be husband of Psychology girl, told Psychology girl his relationship failed because his girlfriend was emotionally unavailable and BETRAYED him because she was extually a lesbian.

Sorry I am laughing my [censored] off at the moment, since it's pretty unique to get both parts of a story and put the puzzle pieces and lies together. I was right not to go exclusive with Psychology Girl... she was having an emotional affair with someone IN a relationship.

Now I know why psychology girl keeps reffering to her soon to be husband as her SOULMATE too!

They will soon be married and maybe after a couple of years they will be eligble to work out their future problems in the "Married section" of this forum.

Coz' cheating and emotional affairs in an uncommitted relationship are OK, isn't it ;-)

Dear Friend, these are all renter relationships and truly "textbook" by dr. Harley's standards

I agree Jedi! Spot on!

Once they exchange their wedding rings, it will be still a "renter relationship"... but then it becomes "socially acceptable" to expose betrayal and go PLAN B.

I disagree...I think in most cases it is NOT socially acceptable to expose.
I received no support from exposing to my wifes family.

people like to keep secrets in the closet, even if they are evil secrets.

It is still a strategic move to kill the affair though

Very good point Jedi!

no, I did not see the importance of marriage when I first opened this thread on the forum. I got IT rather quickly with the help of you all!

But what is marriage worth as it grows out of betrayal in an uncommitted relationship? Nothing!!!

I do not think it's a good idea to dismiss THE BUYERS "in the Dating and Relationship" section with arguments as "the rules of exposure and plan B do not apply, as you are not married".
They DO!

Expose cheaters! Even in uncommitted relationships!
If we don't, they will only bring more visitors to the Married-section...

I agree. A good place to check and see if someone is a cheater is www.cheaterville.com

Exposure is good for the betrayed spouse.

Whether it creates support or not. Desdain or not.

Speaking the truth sets the person free.

Free from being an accomplice in secrets/lies/making the infidelity even more 'sexy' than it otherwise is.

Exposure is a powerful tool to healing. No matter the results.

How's it going gerald?

Hi Jedi,

I did not want to come here anymore because of reasons that got censored aswell. Good thing the Dr. made a statement about same-sexmarriages.

Been back from Thailand for 2.5 months now, scored a new contract within' 2 days of returning home. Will make me enough money to spend the next 3 winters abroad.

My values have changed in Thailand I notice.
I am much more open & focussed on emotion & the sense of community than ever before in my life. I am learning Thai. Living with a Thai family and an adorable 1-year old on a daily basis is truely a mindblowing experience for a Westener: It feels absolutely amazing to live in the middle of nature and to feel part of a community that functions on the principle of an ant-hill. No, I am not dating Thai ladies as the cultural barrier is way too high.

When I was back home shortly in winter, I met a girl who was my lover & viceversa.
Dating her went incredibly smooth & without any effort at all� as if I were 18 again.
I guess I finally met that 1 out of 30. It felt as if all my previous dates were a hassle�

She met my emotional need for honesty & openess big time (and viceversa). I could meet her need for admiration in a flick of a switch and I could actually see her enjoying it.
Unfortunatlely she is 15 years younger and I had the feeling our worlds are too far apart. I returned to Thailand with the memory of how it feels to have great chemistry with someone.

In Thailand I heared my cheating ex dumped her POS after 1,8 years! I both send them a mail to congratulate them ^^ And for the very first time the POS reacted! I enjoyed reading his hate-mail sipping on a cocktail from my hammock in paradise. In Thailand they have a saying: "You are very lucky if you can sit back & watch karma work it's way."

Back home, I agreed to meet my ex to bury the hatchet immediatly. It was a heartwrecking experience but needed nevertheless: The no-contact thing was an incredible source of negative energy & wrecking our relationships with friends in common. I did not get an apology� but I got some closure as the girl I once loved, obviously does not exist anymore.

I found it very very hard to find dates in may: dating sites did not get results although I put my work in from within Thailand, meeting & asking women out thru facebook was a little bit more succesful: although I got a lot turndowns. I felt depressed & frustrated since I was investing a lot of time, but once summer started... I got overwelmed by the sheer number of woman who would contact me! Dates from last year or people I've met recently, they all wanted to hang out.

I am dating mostly in the 22-26 range as I hardly seem to meet any single women in the 27+ range. When I do it's even harder to get them on a date. I find myself in interviews rather than dates� However, I am amazed by the dating skills of many of these young girls compared to the age range I SHOULD be dating. It seems I missed out on an important part of my 20ts because I am learning date by date. I have had so many fantastic dates since I got back home, I am literaly glowing with love. I know the Dr. said you can have great chemistry with someone, but I find you can be quite irresistable to anyone if you are in love with life itself.

It's a bit confronting to change back from an emotionaly open culture to an emotionaly closed one and I am still adapting and learning how to incorporate both states of mind succesfuly in my life. Someone in the beginning of the topic said I would know when the sky has finally cleared� Well I think its happening right now!

:-)

That's funny you sent them an emails of congratulation on the breakup.

My dad joked with me that I should send OM a postcard every year thanking him for taking ww off my hands

Maybe you should make a mental postcard & send it Jedi...
If I remember correctly, the OM had a hefty criminal record ;-)

I thought long enough before sending the card: I did not want to cause any more drama than there already was but I did not want this "event" to be swept under the carpet either.
I wanted to remind them I did not forgive them, but I have forgiven myself.

It was my moment to close that chapter of my life & I took it.
My ex responed with: "Let's meet, so we can talk"... sportsmanlike.
We did, I buried the hatchet, the skies are clear... I am glad I took the opportunity.

The cherry on the cake was his response:
He did not learn anything: blaming me for the exposure I caused on the other side of this planet... meh. SOM NAM NAA (Sour-Water-Face in Thai)
Still has to find his first job, living with mommy & daddy.

If waywards choose their OM based on the emotional needs their partner did not meet (enough)... I should be more than OK, lesson learned ;-)

10:26


I am in Thailand again after a summer of working & dating.
If have met plenty of new people this summer, made some new friends & I had more dating options I could manage back home� without using dating sites.

I had a single Canadian friend (my age) over for a week and he told me how easy it is to date 30+ women in North-America, his friends & relatives all know lots of single 30+ woman and he get's introduced all the time.
Nothing at all like my country across the splash it seems� I still hardly meet any and if I do they are not keen on dating AT ALL�

I've had some rare dates within my "age category" and I could not connect emotionaly with any of them.
It's amazing how many 30+ woman claim they are looking for "something serious", yet spell out textbook freeloaders agreements as if they were a viable basis for a future committed relationship:
A mother who barely made ends meet, swear she would never commit financialy ever again.
A bachelorette telling me what she was like while doing EXACTLY the opposite.
A lab assistent who was terrified if I showed care and affection, yet wanted to go exclusive with me.
Disrespectful judgement, needy & controlling behaviour with all of them really.

The contrast with the 21+ range I dated is enormous.
They are plentiful, easy to ask out, open minded and they know how to make fun on a date besides having an interview. ;-) Although they are freeloaders too, they do at least represent themselves as renters.

The summer really started with a beautiful 22-year old filmstudent on a rebound from betrayel of her highschool sweetheart. She lost her entire circle of friends in the process. She knew I experienced something similar and after an date & a night of dancing at the city festival, she kissed me and asked me to be her "friends with benefits" at least for the summer. She considers me as an "oldtime" friend with whome "love-issues after sex" would just be impossible because of the 15 year age difference.

We've been going out all summer and had lots of fun actually� I thought at first one of us would get bored very quickly or that our conversations would come to a grinding halt after a couple of weeks, but we seem to have developed some strange dynamic that seems to work very well on a friendship level. We dropped the SF after a couple of weeks, although we sleep & spoon together on occassions we are not dating others. We both date other people and share our experiences on cozy sofa sessions. She is excellent in communicating what her emotional needs are and makes insightful comments on how her dates seem to completely miss or ignore them. It's interesting how such a young beautiful, intelligent girl struggles with finding a suitable partner too�

Since then I am dating the most beautiful & intelligent young ladies I've ever met in my life. Young guys are actually asking me advice on"how I get these girls to like me!" and that got me thinking.
At the beginning I thought these young girls might see me as some old homosexual bloke, who is safe is to approach because I am not interesting to them sexually or romanticly, but that's not the case:
I seem to be abe to connect with them emotionally within a very short timespan� something I miss in every 30+ date & they do too in their age category especially (emotionally unavailable & controlling 20+ something guys anyone?)

In autumn I met a 28-year old artist, who wanted to be a "friends with benefits" too� even when I said I already got one of those and I am looking for something serious. I tried to date her exclusively, but she has issues committing as she had an abusive childhood and craves for toxic love. She's affraid of leaving and hurting me when she eventually meets a predator. She made me aware of the "childhood attachment theory" of prof. John Bowlby and the relationship problems that arise later in adult relationships because of that. It seems to fit the behaviour I encountered in a lot of my 30+ dates and why I seem to get along perfectly with a lot of 20 somethings:

I have been "attached securly" in childhood as a lot of the single 20+ women are, while the single 30+ are NOT in most cases, which explains the freeloading, needy & controlling behaviour I encounter while dating within my age category.
Should be a new chapter in FRB imho.

Nice to hear from you.
Glad you are doing well.
But ask yourself. ..do you think a serious woman would date a man who has a couple " Friends with benefits" on the side?

Women do exactly the same thing, Jedi!
It takes two to tango and this dating world after 30 is more complex than it seems...

I have met serious women from all ages/places, who had a friend with benefits and are in serious committed relationships now, some married. They all stopped the side-dish immediatly as soon as they met their current partner.

Same for women who have "a best gay friend" to meet their emotional needs... Who am I to judge?

Would I exlude these women? Not at all but I most probably would never know, would I? Women hide these thing better than men do anyway. ;-)

The only thing I can say for sure is that I stopped "dating" my friend with benefits as soon as I date someone else and vice versa.

I expect the same from a potential partner... or no go.

Back in Europe after 5 months of South East Asia again�
I read my diary of a year ago and it looks like I am feeling a lot better now.
I fell into a pit when I came back last year and felt lonely for a month before the summer really started.

Not so this year� I've been back for 5 days and I can hardly keep up with requests for dates!
Seems like a lot of women missed me or left their boyfriend this winter�
It's going to be a busy for sure.

I've dated Western expats in Asia too and within my age category! Finally!!!
I noticed that women from UK/USA/AUS are a lot more emotionaly reserved than European women.
They are not used to complete openess either. Although they like that a lot, they have a hard time to reciprocate� They made sexual propositions to compensate, which I took in two cases.

These UK/USA/AUS women were actively searching for a husband, which is a breath of fresh air compared to European standards. Unfortunately, none off them wanted children because they felt they were already too old (38-43). So that was a bit of a reality check�

If I want children I have to look for single women age 33-37 which are really hard to find imo.
I've dated exactly one Swedish woman in that category and she did not want children either� she had 3 dogs instead and insisted they would sleep in the marital bed too.
I am not sharing the bed with dogs (or babies for that matter). She was very controlling and not open to negotiation so she was a big no-no.

I've dated an American recently divorced army wife, who was married for 16 years!!!
I took her to a friends beachwedding in Thailand on the first date and she absolutely loved it.
We had a great time and I made her feel as she was half her age again.

I've noticed that there is not really much difference in dating a 28 year old or a 43 year old when it comes to meeting emotional needs. So I am thinking to throw the +/- 5 year age difference out of the window�

What do you think? Why is the 5 year difference so important?

Dr. Harley would encourage you to date someone your age.
He addressed this on a Radio Show when I asked him this very question.
Someone may be able to post the link to the show so you can hear it.

Gerald,

I encourage you to read the book Confessions by Saint Augustine.

Hi Jedi,

I am curious about the radioshow but will not read the book: it's 13 books and written in Latin in the 5th century. :-)

Every woman that met me in Thailand and have seen the interactions between me and the 2 year old child of my landlords said I should have children...

So did my grandmother on her deadbed.

You do realise that I will spend the rest of my life without children following the doctor's advice?

Are you suggesting I should become a monk and study Catholic scripture? :-)

Is it this one?
Radio Clip on Jediknight's Call
Segment #2
Segment #3

Women who are serious about finding a marriage partner will not generally be the ones abroad. It makes no sense to deal with transient lifestyles and immigration hurdles that can last years.

At 22, I traveled the world, when I returned, I looked for a husband. It wouldn't cross most marriage-minded women to look abroad, particularly as some view the expat scene as a meat market.

No im not suggesting that you become a monk.
But you and Augustine have a little in common.
You can get a modern translation of Confessions and read the first couple books/ chapters.

This is Jedi's show... all about dating & mixed families.
Nothing about age differences.

Just had another fantastic date (nr3) with "ChefCook". She (28) wants to marry, wants children.... Unfortunatley she is looking for sex and a rebound at the moment. Bit of a bummer.
I made it clear I am looking for a serious relationship & have no time to waste on being someone's rebound anymore.
She's going for a long trip abroad aswell soon.
She said she has plenty of single friends who are baby-crazy and would be very interested... I am not interested in women who want a spermdonor only either.

We still planned another date and I am looking forward to get to know her better... I am pretty sure she'll be hunting husband material after her trip. :-)

The whole age-thing played in my head the whole date, can't see why a 28 year old woman wouldn't be a perfect wife and mother????

The expat-scene is quite different when you are 30+.
When you are 22, the expat-scene is one big orgy in comparison, agreed :-)

Most older women in the expat scene are abroad because they are succesfull in their job over there (teacher, project leader, consultant, diplomat...) They are looking for husbands that can fit their lifestyle... I can as I have a compatible job (IT) I can do anywhere on this planet.

Anyway, I can find more serious 30+ dates in the expat-scene then back home with less competition. So why not???

The wrong show may have been posted.
I was on the Radio Show about dating ages and Dr. Harley advocated finding a woman my age.

Hey Jedi,

In your situation, listening to the previous show, I completely agree with the "date your age"-thing! A woman of 27 is thinking about starting her own family. Trying to blend into another family instead is just a bridge too far at that age...

But I don't have children, nor was I married before, Jedi!

Marrying someone 10 years younger as a man, is socialy acceptable in ANY culture on this planet:

- In Thailand they even have a word for it: Mia Dek.
- My cousin married a (childless) 40 year old when she was 30, they have 2 kids now and are happy together.

So I could use some very good arguments not to date younger...

Why not write Dr. Harley and ask him about your specific situation? I would include all the pertinent facts: your age, that you have never been married and have no children but would love to have them and that you live abroad. Specifically ask him if he would recommend that you date someone in her late 20s despite the age difference and if you should find someone in the states (if that is where you want to settle). I think its possible that most of the people your age that Dr. H deals with have been married and/or have children but the best way to know for sure is to ask him.

Many socially acceptable behaviors destroy marriages...opposite-sex friendships, traveling jobs and independent behavior to name a few...

Im not talking about someone 27. Im talking about dating 22 year olds

If you want to have children......let women know upfront.
Tell them you want to meet a partner who wants kids sooner rather than later.
I am thinking that women 30-38 are your best bet in seriously getting this done.

Keep open to them and hopefully you will find the girl of your dreams soon.