Hi....

MB has helped me through my most difficult times when I was married. I hung out on the forum "just found out" where I had received a lot of help and the strength to make a very difficult decision.

Today I'm on here because I'm struggling with an issue with a man who I've been dating a man for now 4 years. I love him a great deal and we have a lot fun and really enjoy our time when we are together. But when we do argue, it's about two things. A)his ex-wife and B)his son. Though, I realized I can't discuss his son anymore(who is grown 18)as he believes the kid walks on water.

I do have a hard time with his son because he's a only child and is SPOILED. A very self centered kids. For instance, I received a text from him the other day telling me when he calls that I need to drop everything to accommodate him. I showed the text to my sig other and he said "I don't understand why he acts like that." Believe me, I wanted to him why but I bit my tongue. His Mother caters to him. My sig other, does but not so much anymore but it could be toned down more. His son does play Mom and Dad up a lot. Extremely manipulative.

His ex is a taker. She has never been able to fully take care of herself. Before her and my sig other met, she had inherent a lot of money from her aunt and purchase a condo with that money and it took care a lot of her needs.

My sig other once made a very decent amount of money at one point and while he was going through his divorce, he lost his job and wasn't making nearly the amount as his former job but yet, he paid her a sizable portion of child support, way over the needed amount. (my ex makes more than he did and she was getting more than I am and I have two kids) She really has no "real" expenses as she has her condo & car paid for. Now, I TOTALLY get that he wanted to provide for his child the best as he could. But he STILL feels guilty over the divorce and leaving his son in such a situation. So once he turned 18, I thought that my sig other would cut the cord wit his ex-wife and finally focus on me. I literally was counting down the days when he'd turn 18. WRONG!!!

So now to tell what my issues are. My sig other is sneaky about certain things when it comes to his ex. What bothers me the most is that I feel he keeps me on the side lines while he still plays Divorced Husband to her. What I mean by that, is that she is always crying that he make more than she does and he should still be carrying majority of the expenses this kid gets while in college. So 30/70 or sometimes a 40/60 split. Now mind you, she received almost $2000 a month from him for child support and she doesn't have any major bills. But what I did find out from his loose lipped son is that not only did she have a tummy tuck, she received an eye lift and she complained that she had no money. What she does with that child support as the judge told my ex husband what she does with that money is none of his business. BUT NOW??? She's still pulling that card with him and he still feels sorry for her. Or guilty because I heard stories that she did not want the divorce.

Now, here's the other part that bothers me to pieces. I don't like the fact that my sig other doesn't tell me when he is driving up to his sons college with her. And today they went car shopping as a "family" for their son and I found out. Am I wrong, but they are not a family anymore? But to continue this without telling me is just flat out disrespectful to me. Going behind my back. They even went as a family to visit their dead dogs grave today. COME ON THIS KID IS GONNA BE 19 in two months!!!! Am I overreacting here??? Seriously!?

After letting this fester for a while, I finally blurted out in a text to him that hopefully he will be honest with me. We got to discussing this (a long four hour exhausting) argument and the reason why he told me he doesn't tell me these things is they way I act and that I don't like his ex_wife. With his actions, he's not making this any better for me. He is blaming my reaction for keeping a secret?? I think it's so he can have his cake and eat it too. Also, he lied to me about the split. He told me that it's 50/50. I know he's lying. I can't reveal how I know. But I saw the evidence. And it makes me angry that he allows to do this. I really should care, but he is paying off his school loan and high amount of bills from receiving his Masters. She knows this but still demands. Now, He tells me it's none of my business what happens between them. But yet he tells me he wants a life with me.

So, here's the hardest part. We don't know how to communicate. He is so good and twisting and turning things when he is openly wrong. Seriously, it goes like this; When I am angry at him, it's my fault, but when he's angry at me, it's my fault. He doesn't like to be confronted when he hurts me and when he does hurt me, I'm acting like a child. That gets me very angry. So as of yesterday, we made a boundary that he needs to be more open and honest with me when he sees her and communicates with her. Fair?(I had also mentioned that he should stop giving her updates about his life. He needs to cut that cord.) Ok we agree'd. Right? Nope. He came back and started throwing my faults in my face that I had already told him that I would work on. So back at square one. He can't be wrong. He also treats me like a child. And believe me, I do speak up when he treats me like one. Btw, he is a college professor now if that indicates anything. He ended our conversation like this "You need to think about your behavior when it comes to my ex-wife) WHOOAA! I stopped him right there and told him that there was better way to rap up our conversation such as; "Now that we both came to an agreement I hope we are able to be successful" I like that. Puts us on fair ground, don't you think? So with that, I'm in a time out again while he "cools off." The whole weekend...I can go on more about that behavior but I've written enough.

Desperate for feed back... I want to know if I am wrong and if I am overreacting...

HELP!!!!

Ali~

Welcome back.

It sounds like your BF is still married to his XW.

Have you read Dr. Harley's information on blended families?

Hi BH..

Thank you and thanks for the prompt response. I haven't yet. Is there something on college aged sons and EW's?

I had asked him flat out if he still feels guilty for divorcing his ex and he said; "No." But his actions "screams" louder than words. She begged him not to divorce him and from what I was told got on her hands and knees. Then later on, she would also use the excuse well you did this, you divorced me and put me in this position.... Grrrrrr! Somehow she still has him...

You're welcome.

Dr. Harley states that the marriage should be before the children. Since you're still dating have you tried POJA with him?

Why did he end his first marriage?

Does his XW have anyone else?

Yikes... Please refresh my memory.. what is poja?

OH I SO AGREE with that! I so believe that you are the foundation for your children. If you set an example of a healthy relationship, the children will grow up secure. I understand why he wants to be civil to his ex, but to me this is an extreme.

I do need to share a story about his son to give some good insight to how his son behaves that effects how he treats his XW...

He was watching my boys for me as I had to work. As soon as I got to his place, he had stated that he would like me & my boys to spend the night. After a few hours of relaxing with a movie, I was falling asleep. Next thing I knew, his son (16) was crying in the room because he felt like he was being replaced. Now we had been dating two years already and had gone on a mini vacation. So next thing I knew I was being asked to leave. I had asked why and told me the above. I said something to the fact that this was not a good idea and just giving into this behavior. He then came out and said; "I'm gonna do everything possible to make this boy comfortable as he's a boy from a divorced family".. I was stunned. Sorry for sounding harsh, but I did not have that much sympathy because there are a lot of kids out there that had come from a divorced homes. Like my two. And believe if you could read what my WS was like, you'd feel sorry for my two kids. My ex came on here to tell MB he was cheated on by his ow.. can you believe that??? Anyway, so I had to pack up the kids at 11:30 pm as I was beat tired and head back to my place.(I trained horses and was an riding instructor. Needless to say, I was on my feet from 8:00 am until 7:00 that day. So if that helps..

Well from what I heard, somewhere there's the truth and he had told me that he wasn't in love with her anymore. He told me that she was very into herself and checked out on him. Makes you wonder, doesn't it?

Right now, I'm angry. We had a month and half split back in Jan 2012. Our problems were the same. His ex and his son and him treating me like a child. He does not like to hear that I am disappointed in him and he can't handle when I talk to him when I'm upset with him. Very controling behavior. But this is the 10% that is not good. the other 90% is excellent. Hard to believe, I know.

Here you go.
The Policy of Joint Agreement

Whoops, yes, XW is seeing someone else. This is her first time after 7 years. Of course, as soon as her cs ended, she found someone....

I'm sorry about Your XWH coming onto MB complaining about his OW cheating on him. That is horrible.

How many men did you date after your D and meeting this BF?

Also have you read this?
Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders

I had a serious one before I had met this one. But I had dated a lot of people before hand. I wasn't ready for a serious relationship as I was back in school and wanted to "find" myself again.

One thing is that I never introduced my children to the men I had dated. The guy before my sig other, I will say maybe a handful of times.

My relationship with the guy before my sig other had to end due to circumstances. It was rather unconventional. He thought he would be the forever bachelor. I was the longest he had ever been with a women. But he moved to Colorado (my fav state) and wanted to have us extended our relationship. But I knew in my heart, he wasn't ready to be a part of my children's life. I had to end it. I couldn't go on living like that.

*Oh yeah, the policy of joint agreement. Now if he's open to it. Not sure how it would work when there's only one person willing to utilize it!!!!!

Dr. Harley says one of the best ways to know if the one you're dating is the one, is how well you follow POJA.

So what do you think your BF will do about POJA?

Have you seen these?
Choosing the Right One to Marry

That's a good question.. I guess I can dust off the old book and when I'm done in my time out, I can go over it with him.

You know, if this relationship doesn't workout. I cringe writing that because I want us to work. But I don't think I can go through another relationship again. And to put my kids through that sort of hell? 4 years is a long time. My oldest son will be 15 at the very end of this month and he has austism and my youngest just turned 11. I understand we all have baggage. But it's never reveled until your hearts in deep.

Where is the section to blended families? I'm extremely curious if my behavior is irrational regarding this.

Oh yeah, he treats my sons really good. He's wonderful to them.

Your behavior isn't irrational. I think it's telling you something isn't right.

Here you go.
Blended Families #1
Blended Families #2

Thanx for the links....


I think I need to change my signature.. It's been a looong time since I was 35!

I'm really angry right now as I feel when he doesn't hear what he wants to hear, he throws an adult tantrum and puts me in a time out. He will not talk to me for days! He can't stand the fact that I speak my mind when he spends time with his ex wife and their son.( I'm very forward with how I feel) Their son is almost 19! So in my mind, he uses this tactic to get what he wants???

grrrrr....

There are three behaviours we use to get our own way;

Level one - childish - temper tantrums
Level two - teen - sulking
Level three - adult - POJA

Some people get stuck on level one, some only make it to level two and a lot of people never get to level three. Sounds as if he is stuck somewhere between level one and level two.

People change their behaviours when it is to their advantage to do so. The best way to sell the idea of using POJA is to start using it yourself. That means you start making all YOUR decisions, however small, using POJA when the two of you are together so that he sees how well this works. You can POJA the tiniest thing like what to eat for lunch if you want.

Remember, you POJA the problem. Don't make the mistake of POJAing the solution.

Hi LW,

Yes, I agree with you. What do I do when he says it's my problem I don't like when he's with his son and his ex wife? How do I respond? In ways he's right. It is my problem but he's totally insensitive to my feelings. I'll ask him if he can put himself in my perspective and he will respond sure, I'd be upset too but this is not gonna change as we have a child to raise. Their child now has an apartment at college. He says I'm immature that I can't handle that. I say he does this so he can continue to maintain a relationship with her. My feelings stem that I feel he has kept me on the side with his former family. Everything he does/did with them he's kept me in the dark. What bothers me is that he still caters to her financially and I think that's what's killing me. It might be insignificant amount but I feel somewhat betrayed. Insecure? Damn right. I still feel play second fiddle. Rather it's the case or not. These feelings are legit and he won't recognize them or he blows them off. Why would he want to change a behavior where he benefits from???

I think I lent my His Needs/Her Needs book to someone. It's not on my book shelf. The joint policy did nothing for my ex. It took me years to figure out why I stayed with him. LOL.. I'm glad it didn't work. That dead weight was sooo heavy, that my nose was always pointed towards the ground..

I just wonder how long will I be kept in the time out chair!?! This is a mental torture treatment. When he does this, he'll think I will cave in and accept his behavior!! As he would put it, "Until you learn to.....!!!! I'm very angry.. and just want to say a few choice words...

Seriously? Life is too good to have to deal with that, putting an adult in a time out?

Enjoy the good memories and move on. He has issues you can't solve. You deserve better.

I'm struggling with that idea. This is an ugly trait of his. Though he does possess a lot of great qualities. I'm trying to weigh out the options here...

Your problem, as other posters have pointed out, is that this man is still married to his XW. You cannot and should not try to compete with that.

Absolutely no way I would tolerate that level,of involvement with a xw or with ANY other woman. It wouldn't matter to me if the "'child ' was 19 months or 19 years.

And as for the pouting sulking, ignoring treatment of you when you complain...he is showing you clearly his true colors. He has failed the dating test....move on.

Unfortunately, I agree. I do want to clarify somethings tho. Not that I'm making excuses, I just don't want to give out false impressions. But he is only with her when it's college or something in is going on in his life. Though, he will hang out at her home when the son is there. Not sure if shes home or what.

Maybe they should have stayed married. Sounds like they get along well and have a child together.

Pffth, I've been asking myself that.. She's 8 years older than he. I wonder if it was her looks that caused him to fall out of love with her. Seems shallow. She's not an attractive woman. I know that means absolutely nothing. On a side note, he told me he was never in love with her, and the day after his wedding, he realized marrying her was a mistake. Hmmm, I don't buy it.

GOD do I need strength... My almost 15 year old son who is autistic is very found of him. My other son had abandonment issues because of my WXH. I'd kill me to see them hurt...

Well, it is not healthy for them to grow up thinking this is how relationship work, they'll go down this path as well.

The good thing is that we don't live together. They are used to him being gone. And this weekend, they are with their Dad so they don't know that I'm in my "time out chair"

Ali, dating is like a job interview for marriage. In my opinion it sounds like this candidate is not doing so well in his interview.

This is one heck of an interview... Sadly, there is so much invested.

How do I separate the positives of our relationship and weigh things out?? What he's doing to me know is totally bull crap. I know my mind goes into speculation mode as it's doing right now. I'm concentrating on his negative traits which obviously are hindering....

4 years is an investment yes, but it's not a throwaway either - part of this is you learning how to deal with boundaries and how to draw the line for yourself.

4 years in a lifetime is still like saying you're going to buy the $20,000 clunker because you put down a $500 deposit. Nobody wants to walk away from $500 but you'd be foolish to buy the $20,000 clunker just because. Especially when you've already traded in a lemon that had the same problem.

How long have you been with him? This has always been an issue, correct? His DS is 18 now and he's still doing this.

So what would change if you stayed with him and married him?

Is this really what you want?

Have you ever heard the expression "throwing bad money after good"?


I think you just answered your own question, right? People seriously shouldn't tolerate "total bull crap" no matter what positives there are. (And spent years isn't a positive.) Is he a billionaire?

Four years?? Wow.

Dr. Harley's recommendation is that if a relationship has gone on for two years and doesn't seem to be moving toward marriage, it probably will not and will just enter a decline. By two years if the couple hasn't learned how to create compatibility, the problems will typically tend to get worse.

Quote

Dr. Harley's recommendation is that if a relationship has gone on for two years and doesn't seem to be moving toward marriage, it probably will not and will just enter a decline. By two years if the couple hasn't learned how to create compatibility, the problems will typically tend to get worse.

I don't know if I'm ready to. To have him show compassion about my feelings on this issues is clearly impossible.

LOL, I did date my WXH for 8 years before I married him. That lasted...

I've got that punched in the gut feeling... God.. I wish I was numb....

That feeling is following what your brain already knows.

Did you read the POJA information?

Have you ever followed POJA with your BF?

Well, to answer your question, in the heat of our four hour argument Thursday, he said to me; "if we were married, then things would be different with my ex and the financial part of it." Of course, I yelled back the reason why we are not married yet, is because he wants his cake and eat it too. That may or may not be the case. It's a speculation. He does continue to talk about wanting me in his life permanently and to one day help raise my two sons. At this point, I feel (not saying this is true) that he wants me in his life, but he just wants me IN his life and nothing more. I had asked him what does that mean?

You know, here's the thing. I did not want to rush into a seriously relationship with him. I just wanted to slowly develop a foundation. He went in full throttle with me. I kept him at bay, telling him to slow down. He was 46 when I had met him. He was also in the midst of completing his master's and I was in school myself. Needless to say, we were both really busy. He's a very generous man. As we see, too generous that it effects me. Very well respected as well. He was an anchor here in our town which also left me very insecure. (No he is not a billionaire.. Hah) I'm totally independent from him financially though, I live in tiny conditions with my two sons. I refused to let him help me in anyway because I did not want to come off as needy. I guess my point is that he's very passionate about certain things. He did tell me the other day that I was cold & calloused. Does this help more???

As your signature line says:

"It's your life, you choose how you live it!"


You can make excuses galore for a less than fulfilling relationship with a man
or
you can move on if he is less than satisfactory and someone who has not proved their ability to meet your conditions for a relationship (he has had plenty of time).

Believe me I know about excuses. I'm trying to see if there's any hope here. I still live by my motto and I make my decision rationally. I don't want to just say; "See ya, it was a nice ride while it lasted." Because there was a great deal of time and emotional investment. But the respect is not there as it was. What I'm asking, as I've seen horrible relationships bounce back, is how to help understand my feelings and regain the respect??? I have to be a cold fish just to drop my relationship like a hot potato? I've dated a fair share of jerks & had no problem doing so. And the serious relationship (which I never thought it would last as long as it did, I ended because I just didn't see it working out in the best interest of my children. So, for the advice I'm looking is not to dump him but am I being unrealistic of what he's asking me? Is it ok and is he being disrespectful to me regarding his XW? I know him putting me in a time out is BS. I don't agree and I'm angry beyond angry as because he stays in control of things. But yes, this is is dark side, we all have them. and he's using this pouting, time out crap, I'll make you give into my bs as controlling behavior so I can get what I want,which is "shut up so I can hang out with the two of them and you need to stop acting immature! But he calls it a cooling off period. He just doesn't want to tell me again that the next three days are devoted to his son finding a car with his XW!

The answer is POJA.

If he won't do POJA with you about everything, especially his son. Then there's your answer.

Ali,

"POJA" is basically taking your feelings into consideration and coming up with an agreement that both of you are happy with.

Dr. Harley told me, and I wholeheartedly agree, that if your partner is not willing to poja with you, then you will miserable for the rest of your relationship.

My partner in my past relationship refused to poja with me on THINGS THAT REALLY MATTERED TO ME and I was miserable. I was angry and felt disrespected and worthless in that relationship.

Your controlling boyfriend is exhibiting independent behavior is doing the same thing with you. He is not willing to consider your feelings in this situation which means he has no respect for you either. Your boyfriend is controlling your relationship, which means he is controlling you. Your anger is palpable and understandable. The anger is a sign that you are being hurt.

This will not change when you marry. If he is not willing to consider your feelings now, that will not change when a ring is on your finger. Dating is a test to see if your relationship can be a good one. A good relationship takes both partner's feelings into consideration AT ALL TIMES. Your boyfriend has failed this test miserably and only you now are at fault for your unhappiness because you are allowing this in your life. You need to have clear boundaries in your life that don't budge just because your boyfriend nice on other occasions.

You are not married. You shouldn't settle for anyone less than someone who is willing to consider your feelings all the time.

And don't you understand that when your boyfriend spends "time" with his ex and their son that they are meeting each other's needs in some way? Your boyfriend is basically having an emotional affair with his ex, and defending it like all waywards do. The ex is basically an OW to you.

Not only are you settling for someone who doesn't care about you and how you feel, but you are also settling for another woman in your relationship.

BH and MJ,

Thank you for the clear insight. As of right now, I'm in the "time out chair" so to discuss POJA is unfortunately gonna have to wait. To be honest, I am afraid of his reaction. Remember it is me who has the problem according to him.

And yes, MJ, I have told him that I feel that I'm second fiddle to the XW and he flat out said I'm acting like a child and to grow up. Yes, clearly he did not take into account my feelings because if he did, that means he'd have to modify his behavior to benefit me. When I had asked him can you see things from my perspective? He said he'd feel the same but it's not gonna change as they have a child to raise. (kid is a self absorbed, spoiled brat that plays both of them) I know I keep mentioning that but it feels good to get it out. He still has tremendous guilt for having a child from a divorce. Believe me, their divorce was a walk in the park. So with that, his son plays on his guilt and to my BF, his son walks on water. So where there will be areas in our relationship he will agree on, I'm worried about his response to his ex and son.

I do have a question and please tell me is it none of my business what goes on between them financially? For the past 5 months, BF has been paying off his student loan and credit card debt. He's been paying a huge chunk of it each month. But all I hear from him is that he needs a new Mac, his went to the big apple in the sky. And he needs other things but says he can't afford them. Well, I now know why. He's giving his son a huge chunk to help him purchase the car. When I found out that did get me upset because again of this kids behavior and his EW not being considerate of his finances. The child support alone was ridiculous. He was paying 35% of his salary. He should have only been paying 20%. AND he paid for all of his clothes and most of his medications. She received a nice c/s each month. Remember, no mortgage, no car payment. Just city taxes and utilities. Yeah, I'm pissed when I find out that he's still paying the majority of their kids bills when in fact this kids doesn't need nearly the crap he's getting.. So again, is it none of my business???

If you don't like it then you don't like it. They are your feelings.

Remember dating is where freeloaders become renters and then become buyers for marriage.

Did you read the BRF link I posted?

I will be back as I'm headed to Barnes & Noble repurchase my Dr. Harley books so I can enjoy this rare weekend to myself. I'm surrounded by males. Even our pets are males for crying out loud... Hah~

Please, I need your support as I'm really pondering all of the comments.. I appreciate the rest of the comments on this thread. Everything is being absorbed. Please keep em coming..LW and BH, Thank you...

Ali~

You've already had "the discussion" many times. He will not care if you call what you need by a different name, poja.

What I would you if I were in your shoes, would be to print out Dr. Harley's article on POJA, give it to him to read and tell him you want to poja his visits with his ex-wife. Also tell him you will not be in a relationship where you're not cared about, and that means his willingness to poja with you. If he declines, you end the relationship. Plain and simple. That scenario is a win-win. You win because you will not be in a miserable relationship any longer and your self respect comes back, also allowing you to be open to have a relationship with someone else who will poja with you. You would also win if your boyfriend decided that he'd rather poja with you then lose you.


This man is gaslighting you. Look that up on wikipedia. He is basically telling you that you are crazy so that he can get his way. It is completely and utterly emotionally abusive. It will make you crazy if you stay in it.

I don't care what kind of guilt he feels over his divorce. It's all navel gazing and excuse making. It's all an excuse to NOT do anything different because he doesn't want to do anything different. He told you the truth when he said he was not going to change "because they had a child to raise". That is complete BS.

You will not ever find happiness here, and deep down, you know that. You're scared of his reaction because he has already told you plainly how it's going to be. You can't argue "what if he" anymore. You either get out or accept this miserable lot of a relationship.


I would say that this far into your relationship and the fact that you two were considering marriage, I'd say it's fair for you both to be upfront and honest about everything, including finances. If you don't like how he handles his money now, that's not going to change either. I seriously doubt the boyfriend would give your feelings in that matter any consideration either even if you're married.

Cut your losses and be grateful you don't live together and aren't married.

You won't know true happiness until you stick with your own boundaries. Try dropping this freeloader and make it a challenge to see how well you can meet your own needs for awhile.

Read this.
Please Explain Gaslighting

We know you have a lot invested in him and love him. He obviously has met many of your important emotional needs (affection? admiration? conversation?, etc).

That he is giving more financial support than you figure he should to his first family is kind of nice of him towards them and definitely would be irritating to you/for you should you need his financial support (another one of your important emotional needs).

You really need to study up on the Marriage Builders Basic Concepts to see how you are feeling all these things you feel for reasons. Clear reasons.

This relationship (and whatever feelings you have for him) are not going to last long if he keeps making Disrespectful Judgments like that.

You should not be trying to use POJA with him. The way to achieve POJA is here, FGSN: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3350_guide.html

Notice that the first rule is to eliminate demands, disrespectful judgments, and angry outbursts. You guys can't even get to POJA until he does that.

Fair or not, that's not really a boundary. A boundary is not a negotiated agreement like that. It's a unilateral thing. Here's an example of a boundary:

"I will not stay in a relationship where my significant other does things that I'm not enthusiastic about."

I will admit, this familiar but unfamiliar site is starting to all come back. I first came on here in 2003. I'd never thought ten years from not I'd be back posting again to this extreme. The thing is I know I'm not going to find happiness on here. What I'm trying find are answers and insight. As we all know to well, especially if any of you had a WS, we have a tendency to feel isolated and hurt. The feelings of let down & disappointment are so overwhelming that you seek and find support.

I find the that gaslighting is very similar to projection. And yes, he does do that. When we argue, which is only about his XW or his son, he does twist and turn things around to make it look like I'm the crazy one. Or as he puts it; "immature." I do wear my emotions on my sleeve and I'm not one to hold things in. I have to talk or release these festered feelings so we can "fix" the problem. But it's hard to fix something when one is in denial that his behavior is contributing to our mess. I love him enough that I can own up to my end. I admit, I will add a snide remark about his WX when we argue. He defends her right away. It's no secret I don't like her. But those feelings are provoked and yes, they're not validated. You are all right, if he would meet that one need of mine, which is I want to feel like I am number one in his life, I wouldn't be writing on this forum.

My needs, of communication, affection, admiration are met through him. I don't depend on him financially so that need is out. But I do want to be with him under the same roof. I want that part of our lives to begin. LOL..what he pays in rent and what I pay, we could afford an incredible house. He is a romantic, still opens the door for me etc, (though I get upset when he does) he goes out of his way to do little things for me as well. I will receive a warm touch in the stores, a flirty glance at dinner or an event. We still laugh. He is kind and very generous to my children. As I've mentioned before, my oldest son is autistic and he just adores BF. So yes, my needs are met. When he and I split in January of last year, not only was I debilitated but my older son as well. Believe me, I was never EVER debilitated emotionally like that for any man. Including my WXH. That was extremely scary for me to feel. Losing control of my feelings like that is something I don't ever want to feel again. So yes, I am very much in love with him. After four years, when he walks through my door and we greet each other, my heart still skips a beat. I love spending my time with him. Though, alone time IS needed for balance. But then there's the side of him, that I'm writing about. Sounds like a different man, huh?

I had read how to survive incompatibility and yes, I agree as we've been there too, that once the commitment is sealed, the trying goes away and we forget about that other person. BUT through my marriage and divorce and coming on here, I did take that with me. Don't take your sig other for granted. I thrive on that.

But on a side note, I do graphic design & starting my own Equine photography biz on the side and is in desperate need of a new computer. I'm on an extreme budget that I barely have anything left over by the time bills are paid and my kids needs are met. A far cry from the life style I was used to. A few of my friends asked me why doesn't sig other buy you one? This was recently too. So when that question for the fourth time was brought up, I felt alone. I can't explain that feeling. I had never thought to ask him that. He knows I need a new one. I'm using his pc laptop right now. How Ironic, huh?

Yes, his parent child attitude is leaving me full of resentment and this "adult time out" punishment has really got me down. That's not respect in that aspect. It's like he's trying to get me to submit to his behavior. So yes, My Journey, you're right!!! Yes, if this continues, I probably will just get up and walk. But right now, I need to try this.

Regarding the computer, he is not obligated to buy you one

Here. Resentment Type A and Type B

I know that Jedi...

I just read the link BH. I'm going to tell you at this very moment which is unfair for me to assume, but I feel because of his ego and pride, he's going to object to this. I just hate this ugly side of him. It was told that his xw checked out on him because she never stood up to him. I just wonder... Also, we were in NY a couple of weeks ago and his sister in law told me that she thinks he likes the challenge from me. I do call him out. I also stick up for myself. But I hate mind games...

Too funny, we were talking about pride the other day before all of this erupted and I said, "Pride is a tool God gave you to hang yourself with.."

I have fear and I hate this.. This is very cruel what he is doing to me.. VERY CRUEL...

Yes, but it's just like waywards are. Waywards put on a great front with the gf or wife, while leading a secret second life. And because you have experience with this, you're more keen to the dangers of the bf/ex-wife relationship. Or any relationship with the opposite sex.

I don't doubt that he's a great guy a lot of the time, but what really matters is not the door he opens, or the flirty glance, or the warm touch even. What really matters is that he protects your feelings and your relationship so that you can genuinely enjoy those other things. I remember in my past relationship that my ex would do all those little niceities for me as well, but they didn't mean [censored] to me when he wouldn't protect our marriage from other women. In fact, it use to tick me off when he did those things. Then he blamed me for not being appreciative.

How your bf spends his money is his business. But I would say that if he was overly generous to the ex and son and not be even a little generous with you, that would be hurtful to me. Now if you were married, I would expect that the future finances be poja'd. Does anyone disagree with that? If so, I'd like your input on why you feel differently please. I'm always learning too.



I understand the need to try everything, including rewording what you've already repeated hoping it will stick. But remember this: you've already tried and doing the same thing over and over again with the same results is the definition of insanity.

I want him to "get it" for your sake, but if he doesn't, I think you should prepare yourself for your journey to something better.

I'm glad you came here for support. I know it's not easy when you love this man. But you won't for long as your resentment builds. Its better to lay your boundaries now in the hopes that he'll come around, as opposed to the relationship dying a slow, painful death.

You have fear because you haven't taken the necessary action to protect yourself from him hurting you.

Courage is doing something in spite of the fear.

Once you no longer allow this in your life, you won't be scared anymore. You will replace the fear with empowerment.

Take all the necessary steps, even if you're trembling.

Read about boundaries, what they are, and how to set them.

You know what's worse than that?

How you will feel about yourself when you know you're the one who allowed it to continue.

Yeah, I know.

I'm looking back at all the times when he had done this to me and I become angry. Trying to pull myself together is just plain hard right now. Waking up to that burning sweat, heart racing, feeling both hurt while missing him. I'm mad and angry because he's purposely hurting me and for him to tell me to "Grow up" is surely that sign of projection or the new word, gaslighting.

I want to present him the POJA and start. But the longer he continues the silent treatment or my time out, the more anxious I become.

I'm not reaching out by text, email or phone calls. He lives a mile a way, and not even thought of going over there. And I don't want to. I don't want to play into this game. And by doing so, going over there or contacting him, to me, it will show that I accept this cruel mental game he's playing.

He's got to understand, that this kills relationships. But let me explain, he can turn his feelings off. How he does that is beyond me. I know it's a front.

Seriously, how to I confront him when he does decide to end this time out? What do I say that he will really understand how bad it hurts when he does this...WITHOUT allowing him to turn tables and telling me; "When you decide to act like a mature person...." If I tell him I'm hurt, blah blah blah, He will say use that as a parent teaches a child to stop a behavior..

My God it's 6:30 in the fregg'in morning!!!!!!

You're trying to change a person into something they never were. Can you recall any woman say "he was a terrible boyfriend but a fantastic husband!"? I'm not sure those words have ever been uttered in history...

Update..

He called me and wants to meet up for lunch Tuesday. The conversation was dominated again by him. I did tell him I want to show him a plan that will help us which is POJA. Then the gaslighting began and told me that I need something for my insecurities and anxiety. I told him right out; "That maybe the insecurity is there because you lied to me about being with your XW?!" I told him I was deeply hurt.

What do I say to him when I bring that up? He will use the excuse that he doesn't like the way I react when he brings them up and does something with them. How do I stop him from turning my question on to me? He's very good at it.

How many people did not agree at first to the POJA? How did the person convince them that this is a good idea? I'm sooo afraid that he will be reluctant towards me.

So, how do I gently tell him this? How do I tell him this without allowing him twisting???? How do I keep him on track? If he responds and doesn't validate my feelings and turns this on me, then I'll know right there, I should start preparing myself.

If my bf ever told me anything like that, I'd be gone faster than he could blink an eye. This is gaslighting at it's finest. What you "need for your insecurities and anxiety" is an honest bf who will take your feelings into consideration. Your anxiety is situational. Who wouldn't feel anxious knowing their bf is lying to them? Or putting the ex-wife before you?

You CANNOT communicate with someone who is abusing you when you try to talk to him. All that will do is make you want to argue with him, which is his intent to distract you and throw you off the point, or to throw your anger at the situation back in your face.

When you told this man you were deeply hurt, that should have made him want to figure out what he did to hurt you, not IGNORE your pain and cause more by telling you seek help for anxiety. I am so mad at him right now.

Your boyfriend thinks he can have a relationship with the ex-wife and you. He doesn't need to "parent" with the ex-wife. He can parent his son the way he sees fit, and the ex can do the same without each other's involvement. It's called parallel parenting. They may need to exchange a few e-mails every now and then about things to do with the son, but that's it. In fact, since the son is over 18 there shouldn't be much more to discuss for long.



He will use every excuse in the book and turn your questions around on you because over the course of his life he's learned that that's how he can manipulate you into giving up what you're asking for. You cannot argue with people like this.

ALL YOU CAN DO is to state your boundary to him about not wanting other women in your relationship. Tell him you are willing to deal with this issue using poja. Give him the article to read. Also tell him you won't continue the relationship until he will poja all issues with you, including this one.

There is no need to figure out what to say to him when he tries to argue with you, because you're not asking him any questions for him to turn around on you. You are stating facts only, then walk away.

You can politely ask him to read the article and let him know you will give him a few days to make a decision. DO NOT go in thinking you're going to negotiate with him on your boundary. You don't negotiate boundaries. It's a line in the sand for you. The only thing you will negotiate is how any contact with the ex will take place, that you're agreeable to. And I would let him know that negotiations won't take place unless he's read the article and he understands what it means, and most importantly, that he is agreeable to poja.



The only cases I've heard of are the ones where the partner is fed up and is ready to walk. And I mean really are walking or have already walked out the door.




Why be so afraid to lose a freeloader? It's not like you'd be losing any real prize, don't ya think?

What you need to be afraid of is staying in this BS if he doesn't turn around.

Remember, there will be no "discussion", until he agrees to poja all issues with you. You are only stating facts.



If he is not on board with poja, that IS your answer.

Ali,

Your signature is:
"It's your life, you choose how you live it!"

Are you choosing the same path as before? All the pre-marriage advice of MB will say this relationship should have ended already.

Is this the same guy?
http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/u...in=165019&Number=2561446#Post2561446

He told you flat out that you weren't his priority 2 years ago and you're still trying to make him see you as a priority 2 years later.

You can't force him to want to be a good boyfriend to you. You can't. It's been years of the same and the only thing he's learned is that you're willing to tolerate the status quo.

Sounds like the same guy to me....This is a post of yours Ali from 11/2013


Alis is right.

Ali, your boyfriend told you in 2 yrs ago you weren't his priority, and he's telling you the same thing now.

He is not the one with the problem anymore Ali. You are.

He has been completely open and honest with you for years about how he plans to run his life and where you fit in it, making you second priority. And now you want to blame him for your unhappiness?

You have signed up for this. You asked for what you wanted from him repeatedly and he has told you it's not going to happen. Your unhappiness is all on you now.

Stop looking for advice on how to change this man's mind.

How HE treats you is not a reflection of you, but how YOU allow him to treat you is.

Ali, did you read markos' post to you, below? I've bolded the last line for you.



I would not bring up the POJA to him tomorrow. I would make your boundaries known to him:
1. The Time Out business stops. This is a manipulative tool that is damaging to your relationship.
2. No more DJ's (your anxiety issues??) Let him know these are hurtful to you and you will no longer listen to these mean statements.
3. You would like a more open line of communication regarding his involvement with other women (ie his ex.)

If he refuses to agree with these very reasonable boundaries I would suggest you end this relationship.

I need to throw something else in here: you say you are totally financially independent of him, but I'm reading between the lines and seeing some anger over his financial dealings with his ex and son. You strike me as feeling slighted in this regard. The post about needing a new computer and your friends' questions about why your boyfriend hasn't bought you one was interesting. I get the impression on a certain level that you agree with your friends. If this is the case, your resentment won't help you.

Ali88, I may have missed it in this thread, but why did your BF divorce his wife? What happened?

And I am not sure what you think there is to save here. Dating is a job interview for marriage. The whole purpose is to select the candidate who does the best job of making you happy. He has failed in so many ways that it is hard to know where to start.

Why would you even consider staying with a man who doesn't want to marry you, is thoughtless, and has told you in so many ways that you come BEHIND his Xwife and his son? How could you even envision for a second you could be happy under those conditions?

You have some choices before you. One will involve short term pain and long term pain [staying with this guy - IF he hasn't dumped you] or short term pain and long term gain. If you would dump this dog, you would be free to find a man who could do a good job of meeting your needs and putting you FIRST. But as long as you are sitting around as this man's OPTION, you won't have that chance.

And I find it striking that he has not asked you to marry him in FOUR YEARS. That tells me he has no intention of marrying you. I would have dumped this guy about three years ago if he hadn't asked me to marry him. A 40 year old couple doesn't need over 2 years to decide if this is the right person to marry. They are mature enough to make that decision in a year, IMO.

Hi..

Sorry been away for awhile, but I just need to answer a few questions before I pick up my two children.

I feel that he keeps the dangling carrot in my face when he talks about a future. But there always seems to be an excuse. Sometimes I feel like I'm being punished for his XW mistakes and I'm paying the price. I'm just saying...The first excuse was, wait until son finishes high school, then BF didn't graduate on time with his masters so he had to wait a semester later! So I had to wait until he was done with school. Now? What is he waiting for??

What get's me sooo damn angry is that he had moved in with a women in the apartment he lives in now after 3 months or so of dating her. I know there was diamond earrings gifted and such to her. But obviously that relationship didn't last as she also felt neglected. So yes, I do feel slighted. Not saying he hasn't done anything. He had put me on his phone plane because my phone plan merged with Sprint. And being on his plan would be beneficial for the both of us. BUT I should be living with him or have a diamond on my hand. The pc just made me open my eyes a little that the reason why he says he can't afford anything is now because he's putting money aside to help is kid to pay for a car. Boy does that kid get a free ride and he wants to know why he's self centered and demanding???

Recently, my best friend (who I had met on MB) Moved in after 5 months of dating her guy and they are planning a wedding. I had
told my BF that and he said; "wow that was fast, don't you think?" I said the exact same thing, They are old enough to know what they want and besides, you rushed in with Jennifer!!!!! I know remark was not necessary but I wanted to make a point.

So to say the fact that he doesn't want to marry me, isn't there. He does tell me he want a future with me. And in the heat of the moment in our HUGE argument Thursday, he said when we are married then it will be your business. Yeah, I said something dumb following that statement which was; "We are never going to get married as long as your guilt has you by your balls."

Now my question is, in the POJA Isn't a demand if I tell him I prefer the three of you stop acting like a family to your grown son" Especially visiting their pets grave together the other day.

As this moment, the hurt is overbearing and in the heat of the moment I just want to walk away. But I'm not thinking clearly. I'm angry.

Ok, I will get back to the other questions a bit later...

BTW, Melodylane, I remember you...

It's not there? Are you married? Do you have a date? A ring? You have nothing. If he wanted to marry you, he would have married you. I think it is cute and winsome that he says he wants a future with you, but as we say in Texas: "talk is cheap!" Money talks and bull**** walks. If he were serious you have been married a long time ago. It doesn't take 4 years to make a decision.

Where are his actions that demonstrate he wants a future with you?

I wouldn't be angry that he shacked up with some woman and didn't shack up with you because you can see how that ended. Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free? Those types of relationships are short lived. Those that do end up in marriage don't stay married for long because of the poor habits developed while living together. [85% divorce rate] It's too bad your friend from MB moved in with her boyfriend, because that will ruin her relationship. Forty something women should really know better.

Why in the world would you want to live with him as a roomie with benefits?? What in the world would that accomplish? I can't wrap my mind around that half-assed compromise of a kinda/sorta commitment.

This statement means NOTHING. You know that, right? You appear to be a relatively smart gal. I have a future with my employer - as long as I'm at that job. I have a future with my mailman - as long as I live here. I have a future with my dry cleaner - unless I decide to go to another one. This is a thoughtless, time-buying statement that is meant to appease you and means ZERO.

Uh-huh. Here's the time-buying part of his equation. See my statements, above.

You are trying to instill buyer principles on a freeloader. You're wasting your time.

You are wasting your good years.

You are making excuses.

You had a good time, now move on, find somebody that does want to spend time with you, that actually values you. Don't set yourself up for failure.

I'm exhausted and my brain is in knots...

Got TONS of wonderful insight from here and while I was talking to him, what all of you had said was weaving in and out of my mind. A seed has been planted....

Just a side note, as we all know relationships are always beautiful in the beginning and best foot is always put forward. But what kills, is when your heart becomes deep before that old familiar pattern; "we gravitate to those who are familiar...!"

Sure, of course in the beginning we all put our foot forward, but then you have to move to the renter stage and to the buyer stage!

Maybe if you don't know any better.

I've learned a lot here. Every one posting on this thread knows better than to settle for what you're settling for.

You're not planting seeds. You're cementing boundaries, which you haven't done for yourself. Have you even read up on boundaries????

In your case, I lean toward the old chestnut: "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over, and expecting different results."

Hello,

Kids homework and exhaustion has left me unable to post.

I haven't read boundaries yet. But I will.

When I was on the healing edge of the JFO forum, it was easier to put myself on the other side of the fence as I could help someone and say; "Hey look, this guy is a complete [censored]. Why are you doing this to yourself....!" But to the BS, they couldn't see past the pain in their heart. I'm afraid that's where I stand again. Not by a BS, but a man who does not put me as number one. I think that is where a lot of my hurt and anger stems from because I will never be. I look back at the man who I had married, the long term relationship I had before this one, to the relationship I am with now and there is a pattern. I was never number one in any of their lives. Now that is my problem. With my current, I kept things slow in the beginning, he was moving too fast. I had my own demons I had to conquer before I could totally take him in. But when he did, he just poured right in. Just like they all did. Just like all of my relationships, short and long, they were all beautiful in the beginning.

Um. At some point you chose to stop being in control. That's not their problem. That's yours to solve.

Relationships are ALWAYS beautiful in the beginning. The real work starts when both people relax and show themselves for how they really are.

Now you know. What do you plan to do?

Absolutely no idea. All I know is that I love him and am lost now. He does gaslight me. How do I take that control back? I'm asking right out. I don't have anger issues. Each time I express any disappointment or hurt or anger in him, he can't handle it. He was & still is the child that can't do any wrong I his family. Extremely successful in his careers and when I disapprove

You love him because he has an account in your Love Bank.

He fills some of your important emotional needs.

Not all five of them though and it seems he is not willing to do so.

You will feel vulnerable as long as you are with him.

If you move on from that relationship though......there is a chance that you will find a willing partner who meets them all.

Obviously, you are attractive to men and worth being with, or your boyfriend would not have spent so much time in a relationship with you. He would not have bothered.

You are a worth while woman who can get more from someone.

Sorry was typing from my phone & the keyboard froze couldn't finish my post. Back on the thing again.

Well, it looks like I attract men that have very similar qualities. I'm not sure if I can eve be in a relationship after this...if we do decide to end it which I pray to the man upstairs that we'll get through this, i cant weed or see the signs until it's too late.

Besides a single mom with a autistic 15 year old & tons of baggage. I feel hopeless. Yes I have no trouble attracting men but as I've said
I find myself gravitating to the same type. I can't do this to my children but I am human and I desire a relationship.

This weeding thing is actually quite simple.

From the get go of a relationship, you can use POJA.

During the entire course of a relationship, from the very beginning, if your partner is not willing to poja, aka, consider your feelings and brainstorm enthusiastic agreements, then he's just not that into you and may never be.


If a guy you're dating doesn't consider your feelings, it's time to move on.


It's that easy.

The problem I see with your situation, is that you've never stood up for what you need, so you're not happy. You let these men run all over you. You never will be happy if that component doesn't change about you.

You can change this component by setting a boundary for yourself, which states that you refuse to be in a relationship where your partner doesn't consider your feelings in all things.

You can start now.

What you "can't do" is stay in this abusive relationship, which a horrible model for your children to see.

They will think it's ok to accept the same kind of treatment you're getting in their future relationships.

What I meant was I can't put my children through another relationship. It's not healthy. Though in my previous relationship, the kids met him a handful of times. I kept them away from him. Long story short, I wasn't supposed to happen in his life. He wasn't the kind that kept woman around for more than 6-9 months. I somehow made it with him until the four year mark. I broke it off with him because I could not see him a father to my children. BUT oddly enough, he respected me. The one I'm with now, fell into my lap when I wasn't looking.

My kids are extremely found of him as he is very good and loving to them. As I've mentioned before, my youngest has issues with his father and abandonment. His father, blamed our son for our divorce and his cheating on me. To have a fun but disgusting read, his MB name is Randyrails, He came on here because his OW was cheating on him while he was cheating on me. We sound like white trash. Very embarrassing. He held a high position and was sleeping with the HR person. Nice. Oh yeah, he took a job in south Texas while the kids and I stayed up here in chitown. So my point is, when my son was very young, his father wasn't around. When my WXS came back, because he lost his job, never was home, never spent time with the kids, out drinking, it was a horrible mess. I finally got the strength to kick him out and move on. (shorten story) My youngest was always blown off by my WXS as he never wanted to see him or wanted nothing to do with him. That OW was the BIGGEST blessing. BUT....

I desire a relationship but I feel broken and damaged. I can't bear to introduce my two boys again in a mans life. They're a lot older and pretty keen. My oldest being autistic, doesn't understand and has been asking where my BF is at as we hardly had seen each other after my time out..

But apparently, we are back to "taking a break!" I really wish it was that easy. Believe me. It'd save me a lot of heartache. I don't want to feel this. I hate to admit it, but it's worse than when I found out my WXS was cheating on me.

I have a HUGE problem is right.

Hi Ali88!
Yeah, it's been a long time since I was here and I remember you well however.
Back from when you and RR were still together.
After reading this Thread, I offer my thoughts on it.
..something to think about: if your current BF is like this now with his EX-wife, then 'if' you two were to ever marry, nothing would really change, except that you both would be wearing wedding rings. I don't see him changing anything. Sounds like he wants a batchelor life, but still hang out with his EX... and have a GF on the side...
JMHO..

You have a freeloader and a terrible candidate for marriage. He isnt interested in making you happy. He actively makes you unhappy by still acting married with his former wife.

Your Q is: "How do I change a man?"

Well the answer is, you can't. You are supposed to pick one who doesn't need to change. If you want to settle for what he's offering then great, but it's your choice.

What's more, it sounds like he shouldn't have divorced his wife in the first place.

A marriage isnt something that a good man would shrug off for no reason. They get along well and have children together. I can't imagine why you would want to put yourself in the middle of a family who could very well reconcile.

Just walk away.