So me and my boyfriend have been together and lived together for about a yr and a half. We have a big age gap but age is just a number to me and were very compatible. We've been through a lot ,like we live in a tiny house next door to my dad and brother, my brother comes in all the time so we have like no privacy to have sex or argue properly but we make it past that and still be together and happy, but lately I'm not sure what's going on. His birthday is coming up and I think I've just been over criticizing him since the present I want to get him means a lot to me and I want to make sure I mean it. I want to get him a promise ring with our names engraved inside and I wrote a long love letter to go with it. Yea promise rings may be high schoolish but it's a way for me to say I'm ready for the next step.

Anyway, here's my problem. The other day I got mad at him for wanting a extra beer (he drinks, but is working on drinking less I think). pretty minor thing to get mad about but I made a big deal about it, and he changed the issue things my dad and brother do that irritates him, so I really hated that he just avoided the topic since It's a important thing to me.. The next day we were all quiet with each other and at the end of the night I broke down and told him when I get mad at him for stuff like that it occasionally makes me unsure of what I want and I get depressed. Well the next day he drinks too much and I wrote a note stating how I felt about it, I pretty much said if you aren't going to really try to drink less then tell me so I can emotionally adapt myself so we can have a good future. Next morning he reads it and doesn't have anything to say about it so I'm like all confused to why he can't answer it when I put out all my thoughts and feelings out for him, does that mean he doesn't really care? And finally today I checked his facebook messages and saw that he was flirting with a old friend of his. She has a boyfriend and all but my rule is I don't flirt with guys, you don't flirt with chicks. He told her we need to visit her and her having nice tits and A** is a plus for him and since he's older he wants to do things he's never got to do before. What the heck does that even mean? So I message him and tell him I saw it and how if we were more open and honest I wouldn't be nosy and he wouldn't feel like he has to hit on chicks, and that I don't know what's gotten into me but I'd like to work it out before I lose you. So I'm expecting another arguement to come later on

sorry for the long post, but whose in the wrong in this situation? and how should I let my man know that we need to really work this out? I asked him the other day if he would work with me to help our relationship and he said yes of course since he doesn't want to lose me, but we haven't started working out anything yet. Am I just being paranoid and nit picking at everything thinking we have some big problem? I'm not sure if this is the kind of questions asked on this site, but I really want someones opinion on what's happening.

confused, if he is flirting with other women, he doesn't sound like someone you want to build an enduring relationship with. I would split up.

I can't just split up with him for flirting with someone, I want to be with this man for a very long time. I partially don't blame him to make a flirting comment but it still makes me jealous that he did, even if the woman has a boyfriend and blew it off with saying haha back. He hasn't had minutes on his phone in a long time and we go everywhere together when we go out so I don't see how he can cheat on me, and when he was talking to her I was sitting next to him but didn't look over to see what they were talking about. (yea I'm nosy ) Seeing the marriage builders top needs thing, I know one of my man's top needs would be the sexual one and we only get a chance to do that like once a month and he hasn't cheated on me yet. So that would be a need I need to fill for him and my top need is honest and openness so he would need to work on filling that need. I just don't know why I've been so judgmental and criticizing lately. Is this a normal phase for woman who are thinking about wanting to marry someone who has a little changing to do?

No. This is your emotions telling you that he is not marriage material. These emotional reactions are there to protect you. Listen to them.Don't marry him.

You need to have firm boundaries about this if you want to end up in a happy relationship.

My wife would kick me out in a heartbeat for flirting with another woman. We are very happy.

(My children would probably eat my lunch if they saw me flirting with another woman, too.)


A man who flirts with other women is bad news!

Why would you put up with such horrible behavior from him? It made you feel bad because it's a hurtful thing for him to do.

This is not a relationship headed toward happy marriage - this is the way the 80% of marriages that end in unhappiness, divorce, or permanent situation live.

Why do you expect him to act married when he's not?

That's the problem with living together before marriage. You can't expect him to act married and he can't expect you to act married. Why should he treat you well? You give him everything when he treats you badly.

First step. Pack and move out.

Second step. Break off the relationship. He is not ready to be a good husband or boyfriend.

Third step. Work on yourself to become an honorable, safe companion.

Do you think he has a drinking problem?

Please read.
Living Together Before Marriage:Compatibility Test or Curse?

Sure you can. Why do you want to be with him?

Maybe it's a sign that he's really not a quality catch. Let's see, you say there is an age gap. Is he the far older member of the relationship?

You say he drinks a lot.

He flirts with other women.

I take it that since your brother comes and goes in your home, it's your or your families home. So this guy doesn't have a home of his own.

Please explain what makes him such a great catch? Given what I've read, I'm not convinced he is a great catch. I think your intuition or something similar is alerting you to this possibility.

Pay attention to the red flags appearing before you.

ok I'll give a background of me and then answer everyones questions . I grew up with an alcoholic dad (my mom died when i was young). He wasn't a good alcoholic either, he was the type that would get really loud and mean (not abusive, just verbal mean to my brother or girlfriends). I put up with that all my life, and then I find a guy that I fall in love with, at first it was kind of a get away from my dad thing, but now living next to them all (because of money issues, we have our own house, his hrs got super cut back so he gets no overtime rarely except lately he's getting overtime), I know that I really love him for how we are together. My dad went sober here for like 7 months for his girlfriend so he's been way better.

anyway, let's get to why I love my boyfriend. We grew up with the same backgrounds (minus the alcoholic dad, his parents don't drink or smoke), like I didn't have much growing up and he didn't have much growing up. We have lots in common. We love the same books (I don't picture myself finding another man enthusiastic about reading YA dystopian and paranormal stuff lol and reading is one of my hobbies by the way), love the same tv shows, recreational activities (we play WoW together). Our differences are music and future kids mostly. He has kids so he's unsure if he wants anymore (he said he'll give me one though if I decide I really want a kid), and I'm unsure if I'll ever want any, because society has gotten so bad for kids. I just keep seeing my friends post baby pictures and I'm all like aww they are so adorable, what will my baby look like if I have one lol. and oh yea we both love cats, we have 3 of them (I've always had cats growing up and lots of them lol).

Ok now to your questions, does he have a drinking problem? Yea, but it's nothing compared to how my dad was, and my man has actually changed some so I KNOW he's capable of change, especially if we had our own land and privacy etc. He went from drinking 12 pack everyday on weekdays and 18 pack on weekends, to 6 pack or less on some days everyday on weekdays to like 10 beers on weekends. I talked to him about it and he said he didn't have much to say because the only thing he can do is prove that he wants to try to change it more. So last night he read a bunch and we watched some tv, both activities help him drink less . and he's admitted multiple times that he has a problem that needs to be fixed. A true alcoholic doesn't admit they have a problem.

Is he the older one in the relationship? yes. I'm 20 and he's 37, big gap, I know I'm going to get negative comments about that. My dad didn't like it at first but now he doesn't bother me with it, my brother loves him. My man's parents love me, his sister loves me, and his kids did love me. My family doesn't get along with each other well so he hasn't gotten to meet much of my family, but I've met majority of his when we went to a funeral of one of his family members together.

and yes we live on a lot with my dad and brother, we all have our separate places to live. We split the bills to make it cheaper for everyone. Like I said earlier, money is harsh with hours cut for a year straight. He works as a machinist so he makes good money technically, but when you factor in child support, he doesn't see a lot of his money. I don't have a job and sadly I don't have a license either. My dad had a license problem, and my stepmom at the time was suppose to do my paperwork to get my license when I was like 16, but she left and it never got done. So I don't really know how to drive well, and our car is a standard. I have to work on learning to drive, since I can't depend on my dad's girlfriend to be able to take me to work everyday since she's not here most the time (oh and by the way, my dad's girlfriend is like 63 and my dad is 44, and my brother has a on and off again girlfriend that is in her 30's and he is 21 lol)

Lastly, he's a good catch for me, because we have all the stuff in common, we rarely get into arguements. He said the last couple days that we need to start walking more (walking was my idea of getting some exercise and be able to hold hands for a while and just talk about day to day things without having the tv or computer as distraction). When we do argue, we always make it through it within a couple days and then we are happy again. His family loves me and my family likes him. I don't care about money. I'm very cheap, like when we go out to eat I'm like yum taco bell sounds good, I don't ever say let's go eat at red lobster lol. I even buy my clothes cheap, I'm just a cheap person, I like saving money. I don't care that we live in a small house, to me that means we get along well, and i'm not big into big houses anyway, I grew up in trailer houses most my life, and this is better than a trailer house lol. I don't enjoy living next to my dad and brother all the time, but I put us here, and he's staying here for me. I know if it wasn't for me, he wouldn't be here. My dad borrows his expensive tools and never gives them back or breaks them, my dad never has money to pay his part of the bills on time, my dad hasn't paid us back on his loan to my man in months. (my dad needed a house, since his mom burnt down her place that he was staying in, yea crazy mom, but then he had no place to stay and we took out a 401k loan to buy him a travel trailer, he promised he'd pay every month, but that never happened. That was a yr ago, and my dad's only paid half of the $2300 loan) so my man puts up with all of that, because he doesn't want to lose me. So technically my dad is living with us, because we are somewhat supporting him, and I don't want that, so were going to try to find a small piece of land that we can save up to buy. Kids aren't suppose to support their parents right?

and oh yea, if I leave my boyfriend, then I'm stuck right back with my dad. I'd have no place to live, or sleep (one bedroom travel trailer with one bed), and I don't want to go back to staying with my dad. My man provides far better than what my dad could provide (and no I don't think that's saying that I use him because I love him and would totally help out with bills and house necessities if I had a job, and I don't care about money, I just know he provides well). Now don't take me wrong, I love my dad, but I don't want to be under the same roof with him ever again.

sorry for the long post, just wanted to explain

Confusedchick,

You have so many issues here I don't even know where to begin.

Just because a man isn't as bad as your father, doesn't mean he's good enough for you.

Start reading up on codependency.

Your notion that one is not a true alcoholic if they admit their problem (and still continue drinking) comes from what, exactly? That makes no sense at all. An alcoholic is someone who drinks too much and it causes problems in life, and they can't stop. End of, it isn't any more complicated than that. A person who admits they have a problem and continues to drink is an alcoholic.

I'm not going to give you negative feedback for being 20 and dating a 37 year old (which I did at 20 myself), but I will say (now that I'm a lot closer to 37) that a man his age dating a girl YOUR age is probably doing so because a woman his age simply wouldn't put up with this. You are young, na�ve, and don't seem to know better, so that is an advantage for him.

I wish you the best of luck but you should consider individual counseling. Your situation is unhealthy and you don't seem to realize that.

Have you ever heard the term "jump out of the pan and right into the fire"? You are in the fire.

Until you learn some skills to become independent, then you'll have to stick with whatever crumbs a man like this throws you. If you gained some independence, you might find that you can be treated much better than this. But he's old enough to know that.

Run Forest Run!

There are lots of men like this! That's why the Hunger Games was so popular.

(That's why I've got "Panem" on my profile on this site for location.)

So before you were at your dad's mercy; now you are at this guy's mercy.

That's not a good situation to be in. If this guy takes a plunge and becomes EVEN WORSE, you are going to really be STUCK.

I think you need to start thinking about how to become independent. According to Dr. Harley, most women really do fairly well on their own if necessary.

This is how my wife and I were during engagement and moreso after we got married - and it only got worse. It went on into days/weeks long silences and fights. It was horrible.

To have a good relationship you have to learn to not argue AT ALL. My wife and I never fight any more, since we learned the principles here about not subjecting each other to our own demands, disrespect, and anger. We have lots of differences of opinion and we resolve them in ways that make both of us happy.

According to Dr. Harley (who has been happily married for 50 years!), he and his wife Joyce have a conflict every hour - a conflict, not a fight! They resolve them quickly and pleasantly without arguing, using the same relationship skills he teaches on this site, in a way that both of them are enthusiastic about. No arguments!

Fighting is deadly to a relationship, and it only gets worse.

Confusedchick,

Why don't you read through Dr. Harley's Basic Concepts, then read through them with your boyfriend and discuss them with him. See if he would be willing to live that way if the two of you got married. In particular, find out if he would be willing to follow the policies Dr. Harley suggests, like the Policy of Joint Agreement, and the Policy of Radical Honesty. These would preclude him doing hurtful things like flirting with other women.

Find out how he feels about this. It will tell you a lot about what a future with him would be like.

What DOES that mean? I don't even know. Does he mean he wants to have sexual experiences with other women? If so, how are you going to feel about that?

Dr Harley had a radio show recently where he said the children of alcoholics or the verbally abusive have a 'blind spot'. They pick people who have similar problems but 'not as bad'.

Pick someone who is not just good, but amazing. Not someone who is 'not as bad'.

Your description of his drinking is an awful lot. I would expect to see this handled before I would even have considered a romantic relationship with him.

You are also planning to help him change!!!!

That is such a bad idea that I don't know where to start. If you are looking for a fixer upper in the dating world, you will never do well.


People change themselves BEFORE romantic relationships. So as to be worthy of them. You've already accepted the situation and moved yourself in!! Why would he change for that?



That sounds awful! You spend whole days arguing??!! A conflict should be dealt with in minutes, pleasantly, and to both people's advantage. There should be nothing to 'make it through'

I think the main attraction is getting out of your dad's fire and into this guy's frying pan.

Stand on your own two feet so you can interview prospective dates like job candidates.

You should also read Dr H's article about live in relationships. Its not fair for this guy to support you and its not fair for you to give up so much, and plan to change him - as though you are already married. Your plan won't work.

I understand this guy does have some things going for you, but he should be willing to let you do this first. You can support him as a friend.

You're 20 years old and having to give up a lot of better prospects to be with him. Meantime he can work on himself and who knows?

thanks for all the new answers, I confronted him about the flirting and said just don't flirt anymore or we will have big issues. He said he doesn't want to do anything with that woman, he's known her a long time and she's not good looking so he said he doesn't know why he said that, that he must have drank too much that night and he know's that's just an excuse. I told him not to do it again and that I don't really like the woman anymore but I respect her for blowing it off with hahahaha and acting oblivious to his flirting. That is the only woman he has really flirted with, he has no minutes on his phone (hasn't had any for a long time, but usually he call me at work on lunch break), we go together everywhere, so I should have nothing to worry about there. I just simply don't like the chick anymore since I don't know their real history lol.

and yea maybe I need to become independent, but I kind of have nowhere to start. I need a job, car and drivers license. I haven't had any "real" jobs, so getting a job at my age might be a pain with no experience. I've worked with my dad before and saved up money. He does construction work, and opened up a cafe this last month and I worked everyday for a month and then they shut it down, and since the business didn't make any profit I only got $100 paycheck for the month and I spent it all on a few weeks worth of bingo with me and my man trying to double it.

I think I'm mature though and know when I'm getting screwed. I'm a good person and know that I shouldn't deserve a man that has a drinking problem, but I want it to work out. He's a good man and we are both too nice, he just needs some motivation to change, and I've been working on that. He gives me a kiss every morning before he goes to work and says love you and comes home and asks how my day went everyday. I know he's a good man, and what would he do if I just gave up on us? He'd probably go back to slowly killing himself by drinking more.

I'm going to ask him to sit down with me and look at the basic concepts and the policy of joint agreement and policy of radical honesty and the basic needs and see what happens. I've seen about the buyers, renters, and freeloaders. I think we fall into the renters category on that...

If you think you can change a man 20 years older, then I think this is one of those things you are going to have to learn the hard way through experience. Best of luck.

yea

confused, are there any government agencies in your state that provide employment help, possibly vocational counseling? I know in Texas we have the Texas Workforce commission.

What you have to do is solve this problem - one way or another in life, you need to think about what it will take to support yourself. Can you get into school or get any training that will help you?

This is a very solvable problem that many, many people have had and have worked through. There are lots of people in the world working their way to a better career right now.

Your age is 20? Now is the time to do the things that will make you employable. You are in much better shape than someone 40, 50, 60, ...

I have a saying around here: "working on it" is code for "not doing anything." Most people on this site who say they are "working on" something, if you start asking them what specifically they are doing, what "work" are they doing, they can't answer, because they really aren't doing anything.

I'm a prime offender - I was "working on" an anger management problem for a long time here before I actually DID SOMETHING about it.

I guess this hit it right on the spot. I'm young and growing up with an alcoholic I saw the mean version of one and nice version of one. So I get with a man (which by the way before I moved in with him, I didn't know he had a drinking problem, I knew he drank, but didn't know how often etc), figure out he has a drinking problem but I still love him because he's not as bad as my dad is (or was, he hasn't had one of his episodes in a while). So that is correct. I guess I just have to learn the hard way. I know if I break up with him, it will be forever until I find someone else who I like, because I'm not a outgoing person and I'm not a people person. I had communication problems when we first moved in together and would have arguments I wouldn't talk out my feelings, I'd just give the silent treatment. and I didn't care about my looks or the way I dressed. (I used to be insecure I guess, I'd wear baggy jeans, long shorts, wouldn't wear makeup etc). He opened me up to become not shy or insecure and I admire him for that I guess. He helped me change myself in small ways. Now I wear makeup, dress nice (and even wear dresses, which I hated with a passion haha), and I'm not so shy to strangers, I'm still not a people person but I'll talk, and I can talk my man's head off at times which was something I wouldn't do 2 yrs ago. So I'm scared if I just leave and live with my dad again then I won't find someone for a long time and I'll start to be insecure again. Is there really no hope for my situation?

confused,

If you do break up with him, the people here on this forum will very gladly help you get set up to start a new relationship with someone.

We are in the "happily ever after" business, here. We are people who have learned how good a marriage can be and want to help other people achieve it. Some of us have lived through some pretty terrible situations.

Among other careers, at one point Dr. Harley and his wife Joyce ran a dating service, where they put the principles of Marriage Builders into practice teaching people how to attract someone and form a good quality relationship. Most of the customers in their service did not wind up with each other - they learned how to meet the emotional needs of the opposite sex and find someone they truly desired who they could build a lasting wonderful relationship with.

Look at those Basic Concepts and find out how willing your boyfriend would be to put those into practice. That is going to be the biggest predictor of future success with him.

As time goes by, you are going to change - both of you. Marriage Builders is about planning that change and making it a positive thing for both of you so you grow more compatible and happier together as time goes on. (For example, learning not to fight or argue!) But another kind of change is going to happen to you, that happens to many women: your emotional needs are going to change. The things you like and need now at age 20 are not going to be the things you like and need at age 30. Many men are utterly blindsided by the sudden strong emotional need of Family Commitment from their wives, for example.

As you look down that future road, you may find that your boyfriend is not willing to prepare for change - not willing to become that much invested. What you need is someone who will change and grow with you. If he will commit to the Basic Concepts and put them into practice with you, that is a great start.

You mentioned the book Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders... here is some very helpful material from Dr. Harley on that subject transcribed by fantastic Marriage Builder Pepperband, who has been a help to many of us on this site:

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2332882#Post2332882

Here is some other fantastic help for you: the Marriage Builders daily radio program:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi4200_radio.html

thanks! that's the best answer, insightful and true about how everyone changes their top needs etc. And you didn't blatantly say just to break up with him that time lol.

To that I'm going to say, please use the tools on this site - we really do teach people how to get "happily ever after" here. Whether that is with your current boyfriend or someone else, you will be better equipped to decide after you study this material. It's like suddenly having a lot of tools - and first you have to spend awhile reading the instruction manuals. There are Dr. Harley's articles, there are the radio shows, there are the distillation threads where people like Pepperband have accumulated so much of the material on a topic on one place. There are the books, etc.

Come back and let us know what your boyfriend says about the Basic Concepts, okay? There are people here who can help you and who want to help you.

One thing I want to see is for you to end up in a relationship where there is no fighting. If couples do not commit to NO fighting (no demands, disrespect, or anger), the fighting gets worse. And living together relationships or marriages that began that way tend to have much much worse fighting than marriages that did not live together first. That's where most of the domestic violence and child abuse is. So you are already "at risk," so to speak, much more likely to endure bad fighting and unless he and you come on board together with the idea of no fighting and a relationship of extraordinary care, you are headed for a very unhappy future.

There is a lot of hope! You're young and you are in exactly the right place to kearn some great concepts and techniques.

Because I know its what Dr H would say, I'd encourage you to move out.

I'd also encourage you to keep the relationship light until the drinking is in hand.

But I'm not your mother and I realise you have some practical problems regarding independence and supporting yourself.

Its up to you to pick your next step and if you're just here to learn that's your call.

I never understood why living with someone before marriage is so bad. You can learn your spouses habits or quirks before you decide to try to spend the rest of your life together. I guess that's the only plus side to it. I understand it though I guess, it's against some peoples religion to live together before marriage. I wouldn't want to have any kids without being married though.

I talked to my boyfriend last night, we talked some things out that weren't resolved and we resolved them in a no fighting way. I told him that we need to spend at least one hour everyday together doing some sort of activity together (he has like 4 or 5 hours in the afternoon before we go to bed). That activity can be watching tv, watch a redbox movie, read together, just plain talk the whole time, or play World of Warcraft with each other. I also said no beer drinking during that time, that that time is devoted to just me and him. He saw how important it was to me I think and said it sounds like a good idea He was near tears since he knows we need to get close to each other again, and we hugged each other etc. I told him this time we have to really stick to it, it's not going to be just a week long thing. I also told him that we can live under the same roof but still ignore each other without even knowing it, that we need to show more affection etc like we used to. I read a quote that said a lot of relationships ends because once you have the person, people tend to stop doing the things they did to get that person. We are also going to walk for a bit together daily since that's a good way that we can just hold hands and talk about the day, stressful events etc, and have no distractions.

Does that sound like a good start? Sorry but I'm not financially, emotionally, or independently ready to just move out right now, and I want this to work. He's been talking about when income taxes come up this year he wants to buy a engine for a truck a relative of his gave him and teach me how to drive it and get my license so I can get a job and have a ride. If I get a job and decide that I want to be on my own, then I'll decide what to do, but that is like months in the future. I would hope a job wouldn't change anything between me and my boyfriend though.

Well, the thing is, people who've studied hundreds of couples who've done it and compared have shown that, on average, the problems tend to be worse in those situations than in couples that did not live together before marriage. It's not about it being "bad" - it's about setting up a situation that leads to success, not failure (and fighting).

Ask yourself how you treat a rental apartment compared to a purchased home and you will have your answer. When couples live together they develop a renters attitude rather than a buyers attitude. So when they do get married, that renters approach is validated and cemented. They don't change their approach when they get married because that is their mindset towards their relationship.

Ok I understand now about the risk of always staying in the "renters" position when you've lived together before marriage, but I've already made the mistake and can't go back and undo that. Right now I'm trying to get us into the "buyers" position. I know I shouldn't think of a boyfriend/girlfriend relationship as a marriage, but we have both agreed before that we would marry each other in the future, I've met all his family and the last time we visited his sister she actually called me her sister in law. I wouldn't want to marry until things were back on track and have no fights or unhappy elements. I still know that boyfriend/girlfriend is a totally different term, but what really changes in this situation after marriage if were willing to work out marriage like issues before marriage? If you aren't married then one would think your best bet is to find another man/woman, but if you care enough about that person and want a future with them, then you will try to fix the problems instead of just leaving even if you aren't married right?

That's not the same as being ready to buy, though is it? You're both still testing each other out and that is absolutely fine. That's what you should do before marriage.

Its just that the testing should be done on dates, not in the home. This will mean you are solving bigger problems than a 'just testing' attitude can handle.



No, I wouldn't say so at all. Dating relationships are much easier than marriage. In marriage there will be a whole lifetime of surprises and changes and challenges. Dating just involves pleasant times together.

If there are problems in the far easier dating relationship, then they will only get worse in marriage.

I would not advise anyone to work very hard on a dating relationship if there were problems and neither would Dr H.

Its another reason why living together is more trap than test.

You move in with someone you are not yet sure about......... Now you are obliged to fix whatever goes wrong? How can that be right when you weren't sure you wanted it in the first place?

Surely it makes more sense to get to know without doubt there are no problems you object to BEFORE starting a life together?

Then when you are sure, you can make a pledge to fix any problems that will arise in the future, together.

All married couples will have a lifetime of problems to face together:

Babies, sicknesses, job losses, bereavement, grief, old age, bills... Etc

It makes no sense to START with a bunch of problems when there are plenty on the way.

The problem should not be in your choice of spouse, but in life itself.

The amount of beer you say he drinks every day - even the scaled back amount - are massive. You may want to look into Alanon because even though you dismiss it, this guy has a HUGE drinking problem. Just because he doesn't act as bad as your Dad did, doesn't mean he doesn't have a drinking problem - he does.