Marriage Builders
Posted By: sucksrightnow dont know what to do.....:( - 01/04/14 12:28 AM
Hello,

Newbie, of last resort I guess.
Short story. Married 16 years....not really...gay in ohio...so it doesnt count.
I have bent over backwards to accept step daughter who is nothing but manipulating that mom falls to over quilt. If they have a problem before you know it it is somehow my fault....mind you this is now a 27 year old mother..but if she wants something triangulation is in full spring.....I am the one to asked to leave my house, so she can stay there because she started a fight that mom couldnt handle. I say [censored] you ive done this for 15 years of my life...wife dont back me im out.....wife says ok, when you leavin? Just like that.
For 12 years I had an undiagnosed thyroid problem, so now, rewriting history, I was lazy.

If I bring up an issue that bothers me...my spouse just says me too.
I have been kicked out of my house 7 8 times in 16 yrs. I am not working until my medical is figured out, but kind dont care, just to get away.

If I dont do what thry want I am punished...take away money, take away family ties.
I never allowed my wife to be around my family as they are con people, but I am excpect to put upwith being called a [censored] by her ex, step daughter says she hates me and I will never be considered part of her family. I am nice if im buying her stuff and dont say anything if she steals meds for her junkie pedophile boyfriend....and mom lets it all go....but if I say something im attacking poor drunk driving murdering daughter...

Anywhere to go from here?

Thanks,
Sucks right now
Posted By: markos Re: dont know what to do.....:( - 01/04/14 02:36 AM
I am sorry for your pain, sucks. I really don't know what to tell you. Gay relationships are overwhelmingly less successful on the whole - much more abuse, much more infidelity, much more depression and suicide.

You can try to get Dr. Harley's books and try to apply his principles to your situation, but they are not tested on gay relationships. You can try contacting Dr. Harley directly on his radio show to see if he has any advice for your specific situation.

I would urge you to consider contacting a mental health professional for treatment for depression (and alcoholism? is her charge of drunkenness on your part true?). Take care of yourself. Do not destroy yourself trying to save something where the other partner is not willing - we see enough of that on straight marriages.
Posted By: markos Re: dont know what to do.....:( - 01/04/14 02:39 AM
In a straight relationship, Dr. Harley urges a woman not to spend more than 3 weeks trying to win a husband back from an affair, indicating that she will go through severe depression and possible other serious complications: post traumatic stress disorder, a compromised immune system, etc. I would assume he would recommend the same thing in a gay relationship - if I've got the details right you are female, and I would assume you are similarly vulnerable. I am concerned that if you are drinking you are probably already in bad shape.
Posted By: markos Re: dont know what to do.....:( - 01/04/14 02:42 AM
Originally Posted by sucksrightnow
step daughter says she hates me and I will never be considered part of her family.

I would urge you to treat stepdaughter as an adult in this matter and respect her right to make her own decisions. My mother began an affair years ago and personally I do not accept her lover as a part of my family and I have to protect myself from both of them because I feel they are toxic to me. In my personal opinion children's opinions about their parents' subsequent mates should be respected.

If she is disrespectful and abusive to you I would refuse to spend time around her. That is what we would recommend in a typical heterosexual stepfamily situation - we don't recommend trying to force a child to accept someone they do not want to accept. This is even more true if the relationship began as an affair.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: dont know what to do.....:( - 01/04/14 02:50 AM
Hi sucksrightnow, welcome to Marriage Builders. I am sorry for the reasons that have brought you here. I would strongly suggest you get Dr Harley's book, Defending Traditional Marriage where he addresses homosexual relationships. He has long experience in this field. I think you can download the book on kindle. The chapter you should read is Chapter 13. Here are some excerpts:


From Defending Traditional Marriage by Dr. Willard F. Harley, Jr. (Chapter 13 Pgs. 209-218)...

Quote
Same Sex Marriage a Threat?
Is There Anything Wrong with Gay and Lesbian Relationships
?


Over the past thirty-five years, I've watched as our government has done just about everything imaginable to lose the meaning of traditional marriage. We've allowed the enactment of laws that suggest traditional marriage has become outdated-that a permanent and sexually exclusive relationship of extraordinary care is no longer relevant. And all this has occurred with very little resistance despite devastating consequences to our families and to society in general. In each case these laws were passed with hardly a murmur of opposition.

That's why I was shocked to witness the energy behind grassroots efforts to resist same-sex marriage. Why now? I must say that I honestly didn't understand how this issue could create such a firestorm of protest when so little opposition had arisen against earlier changes in laws regarding marriage. But whatever the reason, I was energized by the realization that the controversy had awakened a sleeping giant. And legislators were listening.

In response to the public outcry, legislators at first simply enacted laws against same-sex marriage, hoping that would be enough to satisfy their constituents. But when judges challenged those laws as being unconstitutional, it became apparent that nothing short of a constitutional amendment against same-sex marriage would suffice. So states throughout America are now in the process of changing their constitutions. They want to define marriage in their state constitutions as a relationship between one man and one woman-just so judges will not tamper with it.

From my perspective, traditional marriage was already doomed by cultural bias against extraordinary care in marriage and by the passage of laws supporting infidelity and divorce. So what difference would it make if gays and lesbians "married", when marriage had already lost its traditional meaning? Based on the legal and cultural trends we've considered so far in this book, I had already predicted that traditional marriage would be reduced to a cultural footnote within the next few decades.

Consider the numbers. My best estimate of the percentage of marriages that suffer from infidelity is 60%. That's over half of all marriages. And the percentage of the marriages that end in divorce is about 45%-almost half. In contrast, where same-sex marriage or civil unions are encouraged, they account for just 0.5 percent of all marriages. That means only five couples out of a thousand actually choose that path-99.5% choose heterosexual marriage. How much influence could that half of one percent have on the rest of us?

So when I first became aware of the same-sex marriage issue, I didn't view it as a significant risk for traditional families. There were too few of them to have much impact. On the other hand, laws favoring infidelity and divorce have had, and continue to have a devastating effect on marriage. It seemed to me that all of that energy going into avoiding same-sex marriage was being directed at the wrong issue. Traditional marriage was already on the rocks-and not because of the same-sex marriage issue.

Nonetheless, the more I studied the arguments both for and against same-sex marriage, the more convinced I became that the fourth element of marriage-that it is between a man and a woman-does need to be supported. Let me explain why I'm now on board.



Quote
Do Same-Sex Relationships Really Work?

Traditional marriage creates the most fulfilling relationship that is possible in life. When all four of its essential elements are in place, a husband and wife-and their children-are very happy. But when even one of those elements is lacking, trouble is on the horizon.

It's easy to see how the lack of extraordinary care, sexual exclusivity, or permanence would wreck a relationship. But is it all that important for the couple to be of opposite sexes?

Admittedly, there's not much published research on this topic. As with surveys that ask people about incidences of infidelity, it's difficult to obtain accurate data regarding fulfillment in same-sex relationships. In public surveys, most people will either deny ever having had an affair or, when they do admit it, will tend to downplay its disastrous consequences. Likewise, in surveys, same-sex couples who are fighting for the right to marry are likely to downplay frustration or dissatisfaction with their relationships.

But I've observed hundreds of same-sex couples in my own professional experience, and they have always stood out to me as being characteristically frustrated and depressed-many to the point of suicide. Same-sex relationships tend to be very brief and, especially for men, very unhealthy and violent. Granted, I've seen my share of unhealthy opposite-sex relationships as well. Yet on average, the same-sex relationships I've witnessed have been far more fragile.

For these and a host of other clinical reasons, I've discouraged my clients from maintaining their same-sex relationships. Instead I encourage them to either pull away from romantic relationships entirely for a time or to turn their attention to opposite-sex relationships. And, contrary to public perceptions, I've seen many clients successfully reorient themselves to opposite-sex relationships. Scores of my previously gay and lesbian clients are now happily married with children-all because they embraced a traditional definition of marriage that is marked by extraordinary care for life.

I have absolutely no doubt that same-sex relationships can be very romantic. And they can be characterized by the extraordinary care I've suggested. But even in the best of these relationships, when a couple has been honest with me, they have both admitted that they would have preferred feeling the same way toward someone of the opposite sex. The truth is, on average, opposite-sex relationships tend to be more stable and fulfilling. And that, in itself, is a good reason to promote traditional marriage rather than same-sex marriage. But there's also another, even more important reason: the welfare of our children.

Quote
In addition to concerns about male and female parental influences, there is also another reason to be concerned about the ability of gay and lesbian couples to raise children most successfully: their relationships are notoriously unstable. As we've already discussed, problems they have trying to make their relationship fulfilling often cause them to jump from one relationship to another-in constant search of that perfect match. As a result, their relationships don't usually last very long. Only a very small percentage stay together long enough to raise a child to adulthood.

As I already mentioned, it's difficult to get accurate information about the stability of same-sex relationships from surveys. But the countries that have enacted laws granting same-sex marriage and civil unions have provided our first truly objective measures of the stability of same-sex marriages. For the first time, we have their divorce rates.

We are all aware how fragile opposite-sex marriages have been recently-divorce rates are incredibly high. In fact, one of the arguments used in support of same-sex marriage is that they can't be any worse than opposite-sex marriage. But the first solid evidence we have on that subject from Sweden is that same-sex marriages are worse-much worse.

In the Swedish study, the divorce rate of same-sex couples was compared with the divorce rate of opposite-sex couples over a similar period of time. It was found that same-sex male couples were 50 percent more likely to divorce, and same-sex female couples were 167 percent more likely to divorce than their opposite-sex counterparts. In other words, divorce statistics among same-sex couples reflected what I already knew-they are unstable whether or not they marry.

And these results are particularly impressive when you consider that same-sex couples in the most stable relationships would be the first to take advantage of the opportunity to marry. The early results from Sweden should give same-sex couples a temporary advantage over their opposite-sex counterparts when dvorce rates are compared. But this study indicates that the first group of same-sex couples to have married in Sweden are actually more likely to divorce than opposite-sex couples in the same culture. And I expect future studies to show the divorce rates of same-sex couples to be even higher.

If same-sex relationships are much less stable than opposite-sex relationships (as shown in the Swedish study), it should be ovbious that they're not the ideal place for chilren to be raised. Children neeed safety and stability, and same-sex relationships tend to provide exactly the opposite-danger and instability.



Originally Posted by Dr Bill Harley
Can Gays and Lesbians Become Heterosexual?

I've heard most of the arguments used by gays and lesbians against the possibility of changing their sexual orientation. But I know from my counseling experience that it is possible. I've seen many who were same-sex oriented. It's possible for these individuals to be just as attracted to and just as much in love with someone of the opposite sex.

The reverse is also true. Those who are attracted to the opposite sex can become attracted to the same sex. In fact, most of us can become sexually attracted to almost anything or anyone under certain conditions. Eliminate attractive opposite-sex alternatives, and people find that they can respond sexually to whatever happens to be available.

That's why I'm so concerned about educational programs in schools that teach children that we are born to be either same-sex oriented or opposite-sex oriented. In those early years when children are very impressionable, they may be influenced to believe they are gay or lesbian simply because they experience some same-sex interest.

Quite frankly, most children at one time or another will find themselves sexually attracted to members of their own sex. If, as a result, they begin to focus their sexual attention on those of the same sex and create skills and neural pathways that make same-sex relationships far more satisfying than opposite-sex relationships, it's easy for them to think they were born to be gay. It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. On the other hand, if they recognize such same-sex attraction as a natural response to certain circumstances but remain open to opposite-sex attractions that will also develop, they'll likely go on to pursue opposite-sex relationships that ultimately will provide the stability and fulfillment they're looking for.

Sexual orientation is not determined by birth but rather by choice. The truth is that we are all capable of expressing our sexuality in ways that we haven't even considered yet.

People can become sexually oriented to just about anyone or anything. And they can change that orientation if there is good reason to do so. In the case of gays and lesbians, a change to opposite-sex orientation can help them achieve more fulfilling relationships for themselves. And it provides the best opportunity to raise happy and successful children as well.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: dont know what to do.....:( - 01/04/14 05:50 PM
Originally Posted by sucksrightnow
Hello,

Newbie, of last resort I guess.
Short story. Married 16 years....not really...gay in ohio...so it doesnt count.
I have bent over backwards to accept step daughter who is nothing but manipulating that mom falls to over quilt. If they have a problem before you know it it is somehow my fault....mind you this is now a 27 year old mother..but if she wants something triangulation is in full spring.....I am the one to asked to leave my house, so she can stay there because she started a fight that mom couldnt handle. I say [censored] you ive done this for 15 years of my life...wife dont back me im out.....wife says ok, when you leavin? Just like that.
For 12 years I had an undiagnosed thyroid problem, so now, rewriting history, I was lazy.

If I bring up an issue that bothers me...my spouse just says me too.
I have been kicked out of my house 7 8 times in 16 yrs. I am not working until my medical is figured out, but kind dont care, just to get away.

If I dont do what thry want I am punished...take away money, take away family ties.
I never allowed my wife to be around my family as they are con people, but I am excpect to put upwith being called a [censored] by her ex, step daughter says she hates me and I will never be considered part of her family. I am nice if im buying her stuff and dont say anything if she steals meds for her junkie pedophile boyfriend....and mom lets it all go....but if I say something im attacking poor drunk driving murdering daughter...

Anywhere to go from here?

Thanks,
Sucks right now
How did you two meet? How did your relationship start?

Was she married to her children's father?
Posted By: AGoodGuy Re: dont know what to do.....:( - 01/23/14 05:33 PM
Originally Posted by markos
Gay relationships are overwhelmingly less successful on the whole - much more abuse, much more infidelity, much more depression and suicide.

My googling of the topic suggested just the opposite conclusion, so I wonder where you get this from?

AGG
Posted By: Prisca Re: dont know what to do.....:( - 01/23/14 05:51 PM
Originally Posted by AGoodGuy
Originally Posted by markos
Gay relationships are overwhelmingly less successful on the whole - much more abuse, much more infidelity, much more depression and suicide.

My googling of the topic suggested just the opposite conclusion, so I wonder where you get this from?

AGG

Dr. Harley.
Posted By: AGoodGuy Re: dont know what to do.....:( - 01/23/14 05:54 PM
*******************EDIT****************
Posted By: Denali Re: dont know what to do.....:( - 01/23/14 06:07 PM
A reminder that the purpose of this forum is to help posters with Marriage Builders concepts. It is not to share personal philosophies. Please help this poster find solutions using Dr. Harley's concepts. Any questions, please email me.
Thanks, Denali
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: dont know what to do.....:( - 01/23/14 08:02 PM
Originally Posted by Prisca
Originally Posted by AGoodGuy
Originally Posted by markos
Gay relationships are overwhelmingly less successful on the whole - much more abuse, much more infidelity, much more depression and suicide.

My googling of the topic suggested just the opposite conclusion, so I wonder where you get this from?

AGG

Dr. Harley.

As Melody posted, Dr Harley has extensive experience with homosexuals.
Posted By: AGoodGuy Re: dont know what to do.....:( - 01/23/14 08:35 PM
***********EDIT**************
Posted By: geroldmodel Re: dont know what to do.....:( - 02/07/14 05:03 AM
***EDIT***
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: dont know what to do.....:( - 02/07/14 05:23 AM
***EDIT***
Posted By: geroldmodel Re: dont know what to do.....:( - 02/07/14 10:31 AM
***EDIT***
Posted By: AGoodGuy Re: dont know what to do.....:( - 02/11/14 04:42 PM
Originally Posted by geroldmodel
***EDIT***

never mind

AGG
Posted By: MrWondering Re: dont know what to do.....:( - 02/11/14 09:29 PM
Originally Posted by AGoodGuy
Originally Posted by markos
Gay relationships are overwhelmingly less successful on the whole - much more abuse, much more infidelity, much more depression and suicide.

My googling of the topic suggested just the opposite conclusion, so I wonder where you get this from?

AGG


Here's a bullet list of mythes about homosexuality which can be found at Mythes PDF FILE. The entire website has a lot more good and in depth information and research including a free book for download if you really want to read up on the subject in a scientific manner.



Common Misconceptions About Homosexuality


1. Gays are 10% of the population.

No academic would agree. Numerous surveys in many countries show that (including bisexuals) gays are 2-3% of the population and lesbians are 1-2%.

2. Gay relationships are as stable and long-lasting as those of heterosexuals

Gay relationships last about 2� years for both gays and lesbians. In the divorce-prone USA a heterosexual couple has nearly an even chance of reaching their silver wedding anniversary (25y).

3. Gays are extremely promiscuous

Both gays and lesbians have 3-4 times as many partners as heterosexuals (comparison of medians). (Some people think this is extreme, some don�t.)

4. Gays and lesbians are psychologically on par with heterosexuals

A good rule of thumb is that gays and lesbians have 3 times as many problems. All are prone to suicide attempts. Otherwise problems are mostly depression and other mood disorders for men and substance abuse problems for women, though there are many others.

5. Gay psychological problems are a result of societal discrimination and rejection

Very little evidence has been found for this. Whether in tolerant and accepting environments or in intolerant ones, the incidence and type of psychological problems remain about the same.

6. Gays are born that way

From six studies (2000-2011): if an identical twin has same-sex attraction the chances that the co-twin has it too are only about 11% for men and 14% for women. This means that factors the twins have in common, such as genes and upbringing are mostly not responsible � individual and idiosyncratic responses to random events and to common factors predominate.

7. Gays say they have been this way ever since they can remember

For anyone, gay or straight, the mean age of first attraction is 10. For two thirds it is between the ages of 6 and 14. It is therefore highly atypical that same-sex attraction is an earliest memory. What are probably being remembered are early longings to belong to same sex gender groups, emanating from feelings of insecurity and difference.

8. Gays choose this lifestyle

There can be little informed, responsible choice involved if first attraction is about age 10. At that age no-one chooses life-time sexual orientation or lifestyle in any usual sense. Same sex attraction is discovered to exist in oneself rather than chosen.

9. Nobody knows how same sex attraction develops

Many same sex attracted people do, being able to trace it to early experiences of sexual abuse, reactions to breakdowns in family relationships, exclusion from same sex peer groups, porn. Others are not used to thinking about predisposing circumstances and have no idea how their homosexual orientation developed � just as most heterosexuals have no idea how they became heterosexual. There are many paths, each relatively minor in the overall picture, but very important to those individuals whom they affect.

10. Sexual orientation cannot be changed

Neutral academic surveys show there is substantial change. About half of the homosexual/bisexual population (in a non-therapeutic environment) moves towards heterosexuality over a lifetime. About 3% of the present heterosexual population once firmly believed themselves to be homosexual or bisexual. Sexual orientation is not set in concrete.

11. Gay teens need special counseling support in schools

In the West today, 98% of today�s teens who believe they are homosexual at 16 will believe they are heterosexual one year later. It is irresponsible to offer gay affirmative counseling to teens on the grounds that the homosexual orientation is intrinsic and fixed.

12. Therapy producing change in sexual orientation is damaging

The best longitudinal study (backed up by many others) shows most people change to some extent - from slightly to 100%. Positive and negative effects are typical of outcomes for most other therapies. Re-orientation therapies also decrease depression, and substance abuse.

13. Private sexual acts do not affect society

Male gay sex is medically risky and surveys put the number of practising gay/bisexual men who are married at about 15%. Sexual activity (gay or straight) outside long-term, faithful, committed relationships is ultimately a cost to the state in numerous ways. (See 2)

N.E. Whitehead, Ph D., August 2012, www.mygenes.co.nz
Posted By: AGoodGuy Re: dont know what to do.....:( - 02/11/14 10:30 PM
***EDIT***
Posted By: MBSync Re: dont know what to do.....:( - 02/11/14 11:31 PM
The purpose of this forum is to discuss the application of MB principles, NOT to debate those principles. The moderation staff takes the responsibility of keeping the discussion on topic very seriously, and will not tolerate disruption. If you have an issue with moderation, email the administrator at JustUss2@aol.com. Do not complain on the open forum.
Posted By: MrWondering Re: dont know what to do.....:( - 02/11/14 11:51 PM
Lesbian cultural critic Camille Paglia writes, �Responsible scholarship is impossible when rational discourse is being policed by storm troopers . . . who have the absolutism of all fanatics.� Paglia believes that it is a perfectly worthy aim to help gays function heterosexually, if they so wish. Paglia asks, �Is gay identity so fragile that it cannot bear the thought that some people may not wish to be gay?�
Posted By: MrWondering Re: dont know what to do.....:( - 02/12/14 12:27 AM
My point is...the proposition isn't up for debate or scholarly discussion because by saying a change of sexual orientation isn't possible on MB you are essentially calling Dr. Harley, who has successfully coached persons wishing to change their orientation, a liar on his own website. That's just rude. My other point is the issue can't be debated rationally and will inevitably invite fanatics into the discussion who will ultimately disrupt the forum with their dogma and distract from the overriding core purpose of this forum...helping marriages.

AGG...you seem like a nice enough guy and I recall you being around in the bygone days when MB was about everything BUT MB. It turned out that was a deliberate attempt to undermine this website. The focus here on MB has changed to helping people with MB. Dr. Harley made that call years ago. It's not personal.



Posted By: AGoodGuy Re: dont know what to do.....:( - 02/12/14 03:20 AM
Originally Posted by MrWondering
�Is gay identity so fragile that it cannot bear the thought that some people may not wish to be gay?�

It works exactly the same way in reverse.
Posted By: AGoodGuy Re: dont know what to do.....:( - 02/12/14 03:23 AM
Originally Posted by MrWondering
AGG...you seem like a nice enough guy and I recall you being around in the bygone days when MB was about everything BUT MB. It turned out that was a deliberate attempt to undermine this website. The focus here on MB has changed to helping people with MB. Dr. Harley made that call years ago. It's not personal.

Thanks, I appreciate it. Sadly, I think that I outlived my usefulness on MB at this point.

AGG
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: dont know what to do.....:( - 02/12/14 03:45 AM
Originally Posted by AGoodGuy
Sadly, I think that I outlived my usefulness on MB at this point.

AGG

No sir! As Burke said: All that is necessary for evil to conquer is for a few Good Guys to do nothing...

Posted By: MrWondering Re: dont know what to do.....:( - 02/12/14 05:45 AM
Originally Posted by AGoodGuy
Originally Posted by MrWondering
AGG...you seem like a nice enough guy and I recall you being around in the bygone days when MB was about everything BUT MB. It turned out that was a deliberate attempt to undermine this website. The focus here on MB has changed to helping people with MB. Dr. Harley made that call years ago. It's not personal.

Thanks, I appreciate it. Sadly, I think that I outlived my usefulness on MB at this point.

AGG

That would be a shame. You've made a big contribution of your time and thoughts here for a long time AGG. If you do go...please stop by and keep us updated. Here's one of my favorite exchanges with you when we were debating/discussing single payer healthcare back in 2008ish:

Quote
Re: Single Payer Health System? [Re: HURTandSHOCKED]
AGoodGuy Offline
Member

Registered: 11/17/00
Posts: 4336
Originally Posted By: HURTandSHOCKED
hospitals would require income verification to save you when you had a heart attack to make sure you could pay. Sound cruel, sounds crude. But think about it. The most productive members of society (those who worked and saved) would live longer and those who were not would die off.


For a minute I thought this may be an MB version of Swift's "A Modest Proposal", but I am afraid it's not.

So, to follow this logic, why not have police or fire fighters respond only to those who can pay for their services? No credit card, your house can burn to the ground. No income, fight the intruder on your own. Makes sense to me.

Oddly, as was pointed out, this is a somewhat comical example of what happens in the "pure capitalism" system that some posters here seem to favor. Boy, wouldn't this be a lovely world - you gots cash, you are fine; you don't, you can drop dead for all the rest of us care.

AGG
_________________________

Top Reply Quote Quick Reply Quick Quote Notify Email Post


Quote
#2155228 - 11/07/08 08:18 PM Re: Single Payer Health System? [Re: AGoodGuy]
MrWondering Offline
Member

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 5668
Loc: USA
Imagine having a health care auction

Highest bid wins

W
_________________________
FBH(me)-39 FWW-39 still (MrsWondering)
DD12 Dday-2005-Recovered
the_wonderings@yahoo.com (listed by permission)

Top


Sadly but gladly politically debates aren't allowed on MB anymore. I unnecessarily lost a few good friends that were incapable of vigorous yet friendly political debate.

Godspeed (and, if I recall right you may be Jewish so maybe that should be g_dspeed ---queenie taught me that one that Jews don't capitalize or write out the word "g_d").

Mr. W
Posted By: AGoodGuy Re: dont know what to do.....:( - 02/12/14 03:06 PM
Originally Posted by MrWondering
That would be a shame. You've made a big contribution of your time and thoughts here for a long time AGG.

MrW, you know that in the early years (back in 2000), MB was truly a lifesaver for me. I don't know how I would have survived my W's affair and the subsequent divorce without all my friends here, and without Dr. Harley's concepts and the counseling I did with the Harleys. Even after recovering and remarrying, I wanted to continue to give back to this community that saved if not my life, then my sanity smile.

But these days I feel like most of what I post goes into the ether, and that a new "feel" exists here, one that I don't relate to well. One of the best things about the old days was the freedom to discuss Harley's concepts, which to me only proved how strong and common sense they were. The more the concepts were discussed, and the more scrutiny and questioning they withstood, the stronger they became. Yet this newer feel of "do not question or discuss" smacks to me of a weak communist regime (like the one I grew up in) where dissent or even questions are never allowed. That is a sure sign of weakness, not of strength. I happen to feel that Dr. Harley's concepts are very strong and can withstand whatever questions are thrown at them. But I get that this is his website, and I will not argue with him or the moderators, even though I don't believe that he personally would agree with the advice given to the poster on this thread. But I could be wrong, I dunno.


Quote
Here's one of my favorite exchanges with you when we were debating/discussing single payer healthcare back in 2008ish:...
Sadly but gladly politically debates aren't allowed on MB anymore. I unnecessarily lost a few good friends that were incapable of vigorous yet friendly political debate.

Funny that you found this smile. And yes, that is my point exactly - debate (especially if polite, even if vigorous), is never a bad thing IMO. It makes the stronger argument stand even stronger.

Quote
Godspeed (and, if I recall right you may be Jewish so maybe that should be g_dspeed ---queenie taught me that one that Jews don't capitalize or write out the word "g_d").

You recall correctly, even though I consider myself a secular Jew (remember how much of a debate that statement caused a few years back?? smile ), so either way is fine with me.

All the best to you and Mrs. W.

AGG
Posted By: markos Re: dont know what to do.....:( - 02/12/14 03:21 PM
AGG, questioning, debating, etc. is allowed - but it's not allowed to get onto the thread of someone else who is posting seeking MB advice and debate it.

As an example, if we have a distraught betrayed wife posting and she is being encouraged to go into Plan B, it's not allowed to get onto that thread and debate whether or not Plan B is a good idea. And with good reason - women have experienced horrendous problems by not going into Plan B when they need to. And many people will latch on to any excuse they can to not take vital actions, so when those types of posts come up, especially from an established older poster, the results can be a disastrous distraction.

But anyone can go make a thread in Other Topics and discuss one of Harley's points with which they disagree. And if someone is here seeking help they can and probably will debate some of the concepts on their own thread, while we try to respectfully persuade them of the benefits the MB plan has for them.

Many of us are now listening to Dr. Harley on a daily or at least regular basis through his radio show, so many times for those of us who are doing so it is very obvious what Dr. Harley would say in a particular situation, while to others who aren't as familiar with his various stances they might be under the impression that Dr. Harley has never commented on a particular subject. But nowadays we can and usually do back up what we are saying with a source: a radio show, an article, a book quote.

Dr. Harley is definitely out of the mainstream on some of his opinions, but then again he always was, even from the beginning of his career when he took the radical step of actually measuring the results of his work, following up with couples to see if their marriages were actually saved and improved or not.
Posted By: markos Re: dont know what to do.....:( - 02/12/14 03:25 PM
Originally Posted by AGoodGuy
even though I don't believe that he personally would agree with the advice given to the poster on this thread.

Dr H really doesn't have a proven track record restoring gay relationships. I don't think anyone does. He has commented numerous times on the radio that these relationships are overwhelmingly less successful, more prone to infidelity, more prone to abuse and violence. I believe that was the original statement you took issue with - but that's very definitely what he has to say.

Dr H has had success helping straight marriages when one spouse has had a same-sex affair. But that doesn't appear to be this situation.
Posted By: AGoodGuy Re: dont know what to do.....:( - 02/12/14 04:33 PM
Originally Posted by markos
AGG, questioning, debating, etc. is allowed - but it's not allowed to get onto the thread of someone else who is posting seeking MB advice and debate it.

Agreed. But the original poster has long left, and I suspect largely due the "advice" she got. So it's not like this debate is affecting her actions at this point.

Quote
He has commented numerous times on the radio that these relationships are overwhelmingly less successful, more prone to infidelity, more prone to abuse and violence. I believe that was the original statement you took issue with - but that's very definitely what he has to say.

My issue was with the fact that someone came here looking for help in her relationship, and for the life of me, I can't see how telling her that being gay is inherently problematic was going to help her. If we are here to help the posters, does anyone truly believe that saying "have you considered not being gay?" is of any value to the poster? The beauty of Harley's concepts is that they apply perfectly well to any couple - mixed race, mixed religion, same gender. It's silly to be telling people to change one of those factors that they are stuck with - all folks can be helped with Harley's concepts.

Oh, and for the record, markos, I did not have issues with your advice, it was actually being helpful to the poster smile.

AGG

AGG
Posted By: AGoodGuy Re: dont know what to do.....:( - 02/12/14 04:37 PM
Originally Posted by markos
we try to respectfully persuade them of the benefits the MB plan has for them.

And that is exactly my point markos - the poster on this thread could easily have been helped with MB concepts. Instead she was told that being gay is the problem. Is that the way to help her with MB concepts?

AGG
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: dont know what to do.....:( - 02/12/14 04:41 PM
Originally Posted by AGoodGuy
And that is exactly my point markos - the poster on this thread could easily have been helped with MB concepts. Instead she was told that being gay is the problem. Is that the way to help her with MB concepts?

AGG


This is the MB concept:
Dr. Harley encourages homosexuals to pursue a heterosexual orientation.
He has extensive experience in this matter.
in fact, he recently testified before the State Legislature against gay marriage proposals and you can listen to his testimony here:

Originally Posted by Jedi_Knight
Dr Harley testifies against gay marriage before the Minnesota State Senate.
He said most gay people have mental disorders and encourages changing orientations from homosexual to heterosexual.

His testimony is at the 53:00 minute mark on the YouTube Video.

http://www.prop8trialtracker.com/2010/03/06/the-minnesota-hearings/

Dr Harley also wrote a book Defending Traditional Marriage:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi6027_dtm.html
Posted By: AGoodGuy Re: dont know what to do.....:( - 02/12/14 05:21 PM
Originally Posted by Jedi_Knight
Originally Posted by AGoodGuy
And that is exactly my point markos - the poster on this thread could easily have been helped with MB concepts. Instead she was told that being gay is the problem. Is that the way to help her with MB concepts?

AGG


This is the MB concept:
Dr. Harley encourages homosexuals to pursue a heterosexual orientation.
He has extensive experience in this matter.
in fact, he recently testified before the State Legislature against gay marriage proposals and you can listen to his testimony here:

Originally Posted by Jedi_Knight
Dr Harley testifies against gay marriage before the Minnesota State Senate.
He said most gay people have mental disorders and encourages changing orientations from homosexual to heterosexual.

His testimony is at the 53:00 minute mark on the YouTube Video.

http://www.prop8trialtracker.com/2010/03/06/the-minnesota-hearings/

Dr Harley also wrote a book Defending Traditional Marriage:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi6027_dtm.html

Not sure how this applies to the original poster. Dr H in this video discusses people who came to him wanting to change their unwanted sexual preferences, and he helped them do that. He said he also does the reverse if people want - go from straight to gay.

I don't disagree with what he said. I just don't recall the original poster here asking for help to become straight.

AGG
Posted By: markos Re: dont know what to do.....:( - 02/12/14 05:29 PM
Originally Posted by AGoodGuy
Oh, and for the record, markos, I did not have issues with your advice, it was actually being helpful to the poster smile.

Thank you, AGG. I didn't feel I was particularly helpful. I really feel for this person as well as the children involved. I have known a small number of people in similar situations. I don't know that a good outcome is likely to result.

I half wondered if in this case the current relationship started as an affair during the WW's original marriage. That would explain the child's extreme emotions. And if so that would make the chances of success even far lower.
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: dont know what to do.....:( - 02/12/14 05:32 PM
No, there is a misunderstanding.
Dr. Harley does not help people become homosexual.

Dr. Harley found that most homosexuals have mental disorders and changing orientation was an important step in creating a more healthy lifestyle.

This poster was helped. People posted quotes from Dr. Harley.
You replied by stating that you googled the matter and didnt find that gay relationships are problematic.

This poster was offered Dr. Harley's advice but you turned it into a debate about sexual orientation

Posted By: AGoodGuy Re: dont know what to do.....:( - 02/12/14 05:54 PM
The video says nothing about telling a gay person to consider being straight. Dr H clearly says that gay people can becomes straight (if they want to) and straight people can become gay (if they want to) (49:04 of your video link).

MB advice is not to convert a gay person to being straight. If you listen to the video, Dr H repeatedly states that he is talking about people who want to change an unwanted sexual preference.

Please show me where Dr. Harley suggests that the way to fix a relationship where the couple does not want to change their sexual orientation is to change it anyway. Regardless of whether it's easier to be in a straight rather than gay relationship, I did not hear Dr H say that he would "help" a gay couple by telling them to become straight.

AGG
Posted By: AGoodGuy Re: dont know what to do.....:( - 02/12/14 05:55 PM
Originally Posted by markos
Thank you, AGG. I didn't feel I was particularly helpful. I really feel for this person as well as the children involved. I have known a small number of people in similar situations. I don't know that a good outcome is likely to result.

I felt the same way, it was quite sad.

AGG
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: dont know what to do.....:( - 02/12/14 05:59 PM
Originally Posted by AGoodGuy
The video says nothing about telling a gay person to consider being straight. Dr H clearly says that gay people can becomes straight (if they want to) and straight people can become gay (if they want to) (49:04 of your video link).

MB advice is not to convert a gay person to being straight. If you listen to the video, Dr H repeatedly states that he is talking about people who want to change an unwanted sexual preference.

Please show me where Dr. Harley suggests that the way to fix a relationship where the couple does not want to change their sexual orientation is to change it anyway. Regardless of whether it's easier to be in a straight rather than gay relationship, I did not hear Dr H say that he would "help" a gay couple by telling them to become straight.

AGG

There is no way to help a gay couple become straight if they dont want to be straight.

But MB is based on traditional marriage. Dr Harley has written books about it and spoken publicly about traditional marriage. His marriage concepts are for heterosexual couples.
Posted By: markos Re: dont know what to do.....:( - 02/12/14 06:00 PM
Originally Posted by AGoodGuy
MB advice is not to convert a gay person to being straight. If you listen to the video, Dr H repeatedly states that he is talking about people who want to change an unwanted sexual preference.

The question was asked then, but the poster was gone, so we don't know if the poster fits into that category or not.
Posted By: Toujours Re: dont know what to do.....:( - 02/12/14 06:03 PM
Folks, this is a Marriage Building forum and not a place to debate sexual orientation. End this debate now and get back to marriage building.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: dont know what to do.....:( - 02/12/14 10:36 PM
Originally Posted by AGoodGuy
The video says nothing about telling a gay person to consider being straight.

Well, he does tell people that. I have heard it on the radio show and he says that in his books. He has a chapter about this issue in Defending Traditional Marriage [Chapter 13]:

Quote
But I've observed hundreds of same-sex couples in my own professional experience, and they have always stood out to me as being characteristically frustrated and depressed-many to the point of suicide. Same-sex relationships tend to be very brief and, especially for men, very unhealthy and violent. Granted, I've seen my share of unhealthy opposite-sex relationships as well. Yet on average, the same-sex relationships I've witnessed have been far more fragile.

For these and a host of other clinical reasons, I've discouraged my clients from maintaining their same-sex relationships. Instead I encourage them to either pull away from romantic relationships entirely for a time or to turn their attention to opposite-sex relationships. And, contrary to public perceptions, I've seen many clients successfully reorient themselves to opposite-sex relationships. Scores of my previously gay and lesbian clients are now happily married with children-all because they embraced a traditional definition of marriage that is marked by extraordinary care for life.

Quote
People can become sexually oriented to just about anyone or anything. And they can change that orientation if there is good reason to do so. In the case of gays and lesbians, a change to opposite-sex orientation can help them achieve more fulfilling relationships for themselves. And it provides the best opportunity to raise happy and successful children as well.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: dont know what to do.....:( - 02/12/14 10:51 PM
In other words, he encourages them to seek out opposite sex relationships, instead.
© Marriage Builders® Forums