So here is the update.

I went to a neighboring town with her (which in ak means a long drive), and spend a bit of time in the car with her as well as eating meals together and sharing a hotel room (with separate full beds). I was very careful to keep the topics on task and specifically talk about how MB principles could be implemented to reconcile.

Here is what I've learned:

EP: She owned her involvement and agrees that it was a significant factor and is willing to put in place extraordinary precautions. Her definition of this is not having male friends, male facebook friends, not communicating with men in the store, no phone number, etc. She is not on board with eliminating being away overnight (more on this later).

Meeting needs: She says that she met my needs (which is largely true) and wants me to meet her needs. She says she wants to focus on our family and doing things together.

Love busters: She agrees that we need to eliminate love busters, but she did LB me a few times. Most of the time caught it and changed her tune.

POJA: She agrees that we should agree on things and find things to do together, but I don't think she is on board with not doing anything at the expense of the other. Here is why:

She is in school right now and will be required to work/travel 12 hours a day for 9 months next fall. This amount of time will almost certainly come at my expense if we are together. If she doesn't do it, then she looses what she has been working very hard towards accomplishing. I can see her dilemma. What would you have me do? She asks. Would I ask her to give up her goals so that she can spend time with me all the while being resentful that I required her to give up her education? That isn't going to work nor is it POJA. The other side of the coin is me supporting her being gone pretty much all of the time and taking care of the family while wondering who she is talking to, while supporting the family fiscally and domestically.

Another issue is that she wants to travel abroad this summer so that she can get a second language which makes her education much more valuable. Again, she would be very upset if I asked her to skip that (and won't do it), but if she does it then we aren't going to see each other for a few months while I sit and wonder what is going on, again taking all of the family responsibility.

So looking at POJA, asking her to not finish her education is lame and it certainly isn't going be mutual and neither of us want that, but pressing forward is going to require extended periods of time away from each other, which certainly isn't something I'm on board with either, especially when I know what the end result is. At best people drifting away, and worst, another affair.

There are other issues that we don't agree on that are just as polarizing. I know that POJA is the only way to have a happy marriage, but I wonder if it takes more than that. Certainly both would need to prioritize marriage over everything else, but what about common goals and world view. We just aren't aligned on the direction of our family, and to make things even more difficult, she can be very polar about her decisions. Most things are all or nothing. She won't be happy with any compromises, such as giving up the second language and just getting her degree.

In the end I don't see it working. I don't want to ask her to give up school, but I'm not ok with her having minimal availability for 9 months, and no availability for 3 more.

That isn't the MB way, and I don't see myself at all happy with that situation.

I agree. The issue is not really her education, but that she places everything before your marriage. Anything that comes before your marriage will eventually come between you. Her occupation, hobbies, everything, should complement your marriage, not harm it.

It sounds to me like she doesn't have time for marriage, so it is probably best she remain single.

Since you are in a position to be very selective, I would pass on this candidate, since you could never be happy under the conditions she presented. I would tell her thanks, but no thanks. You can do so much better!

Acey talked to her school back in the 70s and they let her finish her degree remotely, this was way before online classes and all that. What happened to the brainstorming with abandon?

I totally agree.

You do not need to go down that route with a WW who doesn't put a marriage with you first in her life. She isn't an ex WW at this point. You are not number one with her....SHE is number one with her.

Sorry.

: (

What is the status of your custody agreement?
How many kids and ages?

Thanks for the update, ak1!

I agree with NED - with all the online courses available, could she complete her studies online? And if it's an internship, she could do it locally. You said you live in a 'large town/city" in your state. Surely there are classes locally (or online) and internships available there.

As to traveling overseas, this could wait until you can both go together - and for a shorter time. For the record, I know several languages, and it takes much longer than 3 months to acquire any language proficiency. But you could do 2 week trips (together) each year to gain a little bit, without jeopardizing the relationship. Or, Rosetta Stone - it's really good.

As to POJA - you don't 'ask' her to give up anything. BUT you tell her when you aren't enthusiastic about something. This is the cue to begin negotiating a solution that would make you both happy...which probably means her first idea won't be "the One."

If she is unwilling to give up overnights away (i.e. you not accompanying her), this sounds like a direct conflict with EPs. Can you talk to her about this further?

So many great replies to AK.

Your Ex is saying she is going to exercise the EP's you are demanding, yet she wants to live an independent lifestyle. It won't work. What kind of mom leaves her family for 3 months and is unavailable for 9? She's not ready to commit to a MB kind of marriage. That's her prerogative. Too bad. A family is a terrible thing to lose.

It's good that you are seeing this clearly, AK. Sorry things aren't more promising with your ex.

AK, it's possible for a FWW to come around and become a very faithful, MB principles-following wife. I'm a FWW - I can tell you that when I was trying so very hard to save my marriage, there is NOTHING I wouldn't have done. Quit my job, move, whatever it took I was ready and willing.

She has to want it more than you. Her priorities are all out of order.

Unfortunately, no, the situation is such that locally is an hour drive away. It's pretty much all or nothing from what I can tell.


She has already taken a lot of classes regarding the language, and can speak it well enough to communicate and thinks that an immersion program will polish it up a bit and make it much more useful.


I don't think she has a MB compatible view on marriage, she emailed last night and said she needs to have individual time. Here is what she said:


Basically she feels like she sacrificed herself early in the marriage and allowed me to meet my goals (and I took advantage of that), and now wants me to do the same for her, which makes sense, but I think she misses that her goals involve much more time away, and post affair, so it doesn't work for me.

Yea, just doesn't look like it will work out.

AK ... My WxH is out and about at the moment. He is off advancing his career, bacheloring himself around, and being oh the whore he set himself up to be. It's quite disgusting to watch, and the most heartbreaking thing to live because we have many small kids together.

WxH has had a couple brief moments where he would say to me, "I'll do whatever it is to fix this." What he was really saying was this.

"Home just let me sow my wild oats, travel the world, whore around with sexy women, get my career where it needs to be, and then I plan to come back and be the father/husband you want."

He seems to get lonely quite a bit while sowing his oats, hence his need to send me an email telling me he'll do whatever for as long as needed. Then I tell him he knows what needs to be done to fix it, and poof he's back out in bachelor world again. He's too lazy to do the hard work to recover his family.

I say thanks but no thanks ... and as much as I wish for my family to be intact it is that kind of rampant selfishness that would destroy me.

I looked at some old pictures of myself during the marriage on Sunday. Man I was fat ... I looked at my face and it was a face of a woman just getting by ... a woman who struggled for years just to get her husband to put down his selfishness for once and recognize me.

Dr. Harley once told me that my WxH's selfishness would always be the anchor that sunk anyone he is near.

I understand exactly what he means now ... my WxH is all about him and that won't change. As much as I wish with all my heart he'd grow a heart and want me and his many kids. He won't ... he's not going to change. Not for me, not for his kids, not for anyone.

I have to move on and go through the painstakingly tedious task of dating, finding another person to love me. Although it's exhausting and frustrating in all honesty it is still better than being with someone whose selfishness will always be that anchor around my neck.

Life is a million times better than living a life with someone who doesn't care for me.

Ak, I went to school an hour away, stacked up my classes to two days a week, 7am to 3pm, and was home to get my kid from aftercare every day. With a newborn lol. It wasn't easy but it made my job prospects so much better when I was done.

Or maybe you were thinking about moving out of the area anyway.


This is old renter mentality, and you both have better thinking to offer.

Ak,

What is your custody like?
Age of kids etc

Her responses are very telling.

Is the goal here to reconcile or see if she is up for it?

Curious if plan B was every used here.

ak1, I agree with you. The issue is not this one thing, her school, but her entire philosophy of marriage. Her philosophy of marriage will not support any marriage and is very likely to lead to more affairs. I am glad to see you taking a pass. You can find someone who does have a compatible view of marriage that can make you happy.

x2

ak1,
You shouldn't have to ask it of her, she should voluntarily want to do WHATEVER it takes...the thrust is all the difference in the world. Wanting to save the family/marriage and put you at ease should be her primary goal.

It's not so that's your answer.

ak1, what is interesting is that she learned nothing from the demise of your marriage. She has the same destructive philosophy of marriage that destroyed your marriage: her individual goals come before your marriage. She wants an independent lifestyle more than she wants a happy, integrated marriage.

It's interesting, before the affair I pursued my goals and she encouraged me to do so, frequently at her expense. She was ok with this because her philosophy on marriage is that two people encourage each other's desires and goals so that they together can achieve more.

After the affair, it's like she wants the same thing, but the opposite, she wants me to happily encourage her to pursue her goals at my expense. I think she misses that the typical outcome is an affair. She probably views that as a separate issue, one that would would be resolved with EP, though she doesn't take EP far enough to include giving up individual goals.

I tried to explain that this won't work regardless of who is doing it, but I don't think she can see it.

At any rate, I spoke with her a bit more last night over text and her responses are very telling:


Me:

Yes, as long as we are in enthusiastic agreement about the goals.

Without enthusiastic agreement it's too easy for our goals to come at the expense or discomfort of each other which breeds resentment and and potentially even unfaithfulness.

With enthusiastic agreement it is natural to be excited about accomplishments in each other's goals, encourage each other, while eliminating resentment.

Her Response:

I told her if she can think of ways to address both of our concerns then let me know.

Her response was more or less telling me she can't believe I wouldn't be on board, and that she feels like she would be constantly letting me down, that my complaining about it would lead the children to disrespect and devalue her (they have their own issues with what she wants to do, but off course it's my fault they feel that way since I'm not encouraging her).

She asks what part of her I do support that isn't based on fear, manipulation, or drudgery, that she can't do anything about it without quitting, and that she won't "undermine herself by sacrificing something so paramount to her individuation, self-esteem, and personal growth for someone who does not value that individuation enough to support it."

Now in the past I have slipped and complained in front of the kids, so I know that would make things way worse and no longer talk to her in front of the kids. It's a huge LB that I've worked very hard to eliminate. That said, I don't think she understands that they feel the same way about her "individuation" as the problem couldn't possibly be her goals, it must be the rest of our poor attitudes, and selfishness to not support her.

As for custody, it's like this:

I have two sons with her 14, and 12. The 14yo is a people pleaser and goes back and forth, and the 12yo is very strong willed and bitter with her. He gives her a very hard time, so just before the divorce she told him he can live with me. She later changed it to she sees him every other weekend before it was final, but he hates that I make him go over there and wants me to get it changed. He is upset because he feels abandoned and replaced since she adopted our foster child 2 days after the divorce.

It's a mess. I really wish she could be a buyer, but she isn't. It's time to move on.... again....

So sorry, ak1.

What a kind thing to say. Even though I don't know you, nor do you know me, it's obvious that you care, and I appreciate it.

I do. I was hoping - for your heart's ease, and for your children's sake - that this had worked out.

But, knowing how respectful you are here, and your willingness to make such effort, I am certain that you'll find someone wonderful.

Based on the age of your kids, I encourage you to have no contact with her so you can move on.
I have been in plan B with my ex wife and going no contact has given me a great peace of mind

It's not that easy with the kids, honestly. I would love to go plan B, but it absolutely requires and intermediary, and there isn't one around here that I can count on, and email isn't going to work since I would need somewhere to take them.

I'll put some effort into finding one again, but if I don't it's not anywhere near as bad as it was. I don't have any love left to protect anymore, and she isn't really abusive anymore since we live separate lives, just wanting to explore reconciliation under conditions that won't work.

AK,
You gave it your best shot and you handled this wisely. One day, your ex-wife may understand what you're position is and live to regret it.

Sorry it didn't work out.

ak, I understand how it's appropriate, but it still sounds like you're the renter, unwilling to brainstorm solutions together. It's not unreasonable for someone who put you through school to expect you to do a little brainstorming together to figure out how she can get educated, too.

That is called sacrifice, NED. She wants the education at his expense. He is wise to pass on that.

NED,

I'm confused. Why would he be a buyer yet with his XWW? She's the one who needs to show him. Her affair was on and off for 11 years. I think him even giving her a chance to hear her out is more than he needed to do. He needs to protect himself. She has proven AGAIN that she won't put her marriage first and be a buyer. She goes back and forth between freeloader and renter. Isn't that sacrificing???

ak1,

I think you are being smart.

I agree, Ak. Keep working at finding a woman that will compliment you in a good Marriage Builders relationship.

I want to brainstorm, and have asked to do that many, many times. I'm perfectly fine with school, just not fine with school, traveling abroad for 3 months, and another item that triggers the affair in a very significant way, all in the name of supporting her individualism.

This isn't about her education as I'm enthusiastic about that, this is about her getting supported in her goals, even if they are at my expense, and unwillingness to negotiate about it. To her I'm either supporting her individualism or not.

On top of that, she didn't put me through school, and even if I wanted to do something that took 60 hours a week, it's still up for negotiation.

ak

I didn't mean to hit a nerve here. Just from here as someone who went back to get an education at a school an hour from the house without spending evenings away, it sounds very do-able. And as far as the immersion thing I'm thinking there's middle ground there, too, maybe a month family vacation in a place would be do-able too. I've worked at a place where most of my fellow employees spoke another language on lunch break, actually, the place I work now is like that too, maybe there are in-town ways to get that immersion experience.

None of this addresses her desire for independence in marriage, which is the real problem. If she desired an integrated marriage, in which nobody sacrificed and nobody gained at the other's expense, then sure they could probably negotiate a way for her to continue her education.

The basic problem, though, is not her schooling, but her entire approach to marriage. If she is averse to taking the steps to create an integrated marriage where POJA reigns supreme then the marriage won't work. So, they could brainstorm on one issue,[not that she is willing to do any such thing] but that doesn't help if one of the partners is against that practice. POJA takes 2 willing people who are interested in an outcome that makes both people happy. His XW has made it crystal clear that she will not give up her independent lifestyle to accommodate a marriage.

That was the same issue that led to the demise of their marriage. So he would be crazy to get back into the same situation again.

I agree that if ak were married to YOU this sort of brainstorming could easily happen. Her goals would be easy to work around. But that is not what she wants.

It is VERY subtle, but if you look at her replies, she uses the words 'support' and 'individualism' a whole lot. It's not the degree she really wants, she can get that some other way, or start a new one nearby with ak's help.

What she wants is sacrifice, disguised as support or respect for her as an individual. She sacrificed for him and she wants him to suffer for her back. This will prove that he will do so whenever she needs to do her own thing. Like the languages thing, which is clearly 'Will You Sacrifice For Me' test scenario #2. When people sacrifice as keenly as she did initially, they ALWAYS keep score. Later they make it clear that no other currency but sacrifice will pay off the 'debt'.

It's a bit like being an emotional loan shark.

One highly dedicated renter on these forums made her husband sacrifice by going to restaurants, which he hated. After ten years he said it was time for him to have some fun - with opposite sex friends. The 'pay back' is always at a much higher rate of interest, which we can also see in ak's example.

Have you read Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders? It makes it very easy to spot them. Dr H says renters have a very passionate and dedicated love of sacrifice and INSIST on it. It's not simply a laziness in finding the win-win solution.

They are not interested in brainstorming. They will find the one thing that is your deal breaker and ask for it to 'prove' your love thorugh sacrifice.

It's pretty obvious that the xWW doesnt really need the things she is asking for more than a marriage. What she really, really wants however is a sacrificial marriage.

Learning a language is more important than her marriage? Come on. The very fact she even came up with that says so much.

I have that book, I'm going to have to read it again, so I don't keep missing these things that are big and obvious to everyone but me. I just broke up with my fiancee, my mom started warning me about him early last year and I thought she just was being paranoid.

Have you read this NED?
Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders

I'll add here that there are many signs in dating that will reveal the hidden language behind renters. When one starts to get serious with someone bringing POJA subtly into the mix will be the best indicator on their stance for negotiation.

A person who cares for you will automatically work with you, so trying out options lets you see the exact level of their selfishness, but most importantly their honesty. You can't have POJA unless the person has 100% radical honesty. The two go hand in hand.

The minute you start to hear things like,

"We always...
"You did that last time ...
"We agreed on that but ...

You start to realize they were simply sacrificing to make you happy, and since they struggle with this simple task of being honest, they are likely not that honest in other areas of their life as well. Lying is a seriuosly bad habit many many folks have.

But I would like to add POJA is not something that comes natural, and sacrificing seems to be a habit most people are raised with today.

If you like someone, and they aren't perfect at POJA in the beginning, but are open to practicing it and make it better that is a great sign. Mostly because they have to be an honest person to really make POJA work.

Dr Harley says every person who is dating someone seriously should ask their friends and family for their *real* and specific opinion of the person. He says that we cannot be entirely objective ourselves.


I couldn't agree more with this. PoJA leaves no room for abuse, manipulation or guilt tripping and depends entirely on truthfulness and respect. If you are having good practice PoJA (there's no obligation to PoJA in dating, just practice it to see how well you both do) with them and if it goes well, it is probably because the other person has a respectful mindset too.

I've only posted small snippets of what she wrote/said. individualism is a big deal to her and frequently quoted.

Another marriage book I read sited the feminist movement as responsible for training women to fight for themselves and equality, just not in ways that make them marriage material.

I wonder how true this is. She has been in a bit of counseling.


This is so true, when she was in the affair she came right out and said we are even now, and that it was payback. Even today she is very keen to keep track of everything I've done, and tell me how unfair it is for me to not support her.

I should note that when she sacrificed for me, it wasn't something I typically forced since I did ask how she felt a lot, but she said she was always fine with it, like volunteering to sacrifice. She (by her own admission) made herself into a martyr, and while things have improved a ton, it's not like the score keeping stopped.


She is now saying that she is acting like a single woman and that she would change this stuff if she was in a relationship, but I'm not interested in a relationship until this stuff changes (for good!). One of the challenges with reconciliation, at what point do you stop being a renter when the problem in the first place was being renter from the beginning. Sounds like it's time to email the show.

ak

No I don't think so. I think you can safely let this one go with few regrets.

If she is dead set on being a permanent renter, putting herself first, ignoring the requirements of a caring marriage and living like a single woman - well then who is stopping her? Nobody that's who.

There's a vast difference between being a temporary renter, and being a permanent renter.

I'm a renter because I am not married. I have no obligation to anyone because I made no vows. If I discover tomorrow that my boyfriend and I are a bit too different and are struggling to PoJA, I can just walk away without fretting about it a whit.

But I do trial PoJA to see how it works for us and I find that it is in fact surprisingly easy. It's easy if you have the same priorities in life and are willing to be buyers - that is the only way in which PoJa is possible.

But even if I PoJA everything and act considerately I am not a buyer till I buy. I am a renter, albeit one who hopes to buy.

A permanent renter is a whole different animal. They NEED to see you sacrifice because they plan on being 'individual' at some point. So they martyr themselves ( I remember saying "Are you sure?" to WWXH a lot, then wondering why he wasn't enjoying the decision WE had supposedly made.) When they have achieved martyrdom, they then tell you what they need and point to the balance sheet and tell you what you 'owe' them.

This type also believes in unconditional love and blank sheet forgiveness. They want it clearly spelled out that care is not a requirement you should expect. And when they do neglect you, they want forgiveness. Obviously. Just run!

In your shoes I'd go full tilt Plan B but if you do stay in contact, consider: how does it affect you?

There's simply no need to converse with her at all and it only encourages her to blame you instead of truly looking at her own choices.

If you do stay in touch I would just stick to a cheerful and firm line along the lines of "Suit yourself but my answer is no". Something like: "Long distance relationships simply don't work - however I hope you will be very happy and achieve everything you want in life." Don't engage and just be very nonplussed.

We each do have free will and she is, after all, free to be an idiot if she likes. Just as you are free to steer clear.

ak,
I want to share this important advice with you about dating in Alaska.
Technically its not MB advice but very practical however:

NED, I'm so sorry. Would you mind to share more - perhaps on a different thread as I don't want to thread-jack? What did your Mom say last year?

Jedi, thanks for the post, interesting video, but of course it's not anything like that around here.

Also thanks for your other advice, I wanted to give her one more chance since she had made some important changes, and because our family together would be great, but you were right, she hasn't changed enough, and more importantly hasn't changed her view on marriage.

Indie summarized it well, she is a renter, and not likely to change. Here are some interesting quotes from today.


I think plan B (or as absolutely close as I can get to it) is the only way forward.

I can't describe how HAPPY I have been since having no contact wiyh my ex wife.
Even email or text contact can cause stress.

Im glad I cut her out of my life.

Your kids are old enough so you could go no contact.