I haven't posted in a long time. My divorce was final as of the beginning of March, 2012 and since then I've been dating on and off. I had a relationship with REBA (the accountant from my last set of posts) that began in September of 2012, lasted nine months and ended horribly after we came back from a European vacation. I've since bought a house and have done my best to move on with my life. Since this last September, I've been online dating again and had a two month relationship with ABBY. ABBY did not want to ever get married, live with anyone else or have a typical relationship so once that was revealed, it ended amicably just before Christmas. In between have been a smattering of women that have not "worked out" for one reason or another. None of them were bad, just not right for me.

So the purpose of this post and subsequent posts will be to talk about the day to day "stuff" that goes into online dating. The names will be changed to protect the women's identity. I will talk about the blow by blow stuff that goes into online dating so that others can get a general perspective on how this goes for an average guy in a small city. Hopefully this will help someone beyond just myself. I'm also taking any advice if anyone has some.

I am 35 years old with three kids, a stable job and a nice home. How bad can this be, right?

Travis

Ok so the current lay of the land is in order. I'm using two sites in order to meet women. The first is OKCupid which is free. This is also my go-to site which for the most part is where I've gotten the most dates this time around. Last time I used Match which is where I met REBA.

On Match, I've sent out 33 emails in the last week and have received replies from one woman thus far, JENNIE. JENNIE strikes me as reasonably intelligent, articulate and generally not interested in me. While she has replied three times to me in the last week, she is either not invested in online dating or I just haven't captured her attention compared to other suitors. I fully anticipate her to fizzle out over the next week.

On OKCupid, I have had significantly greater success. I've e-mailed approximately 100 over the past three weeks, have received numerous replies and gone on several dates. I'm currently actively talking with five women from that site and have dates planned with three.

KATE - I've already been on three dates with Kate thus far. So far I've taken her to a wine bar, the St Louis Art Museum (which I love, this is a great go-to date) and finally I made her dinner at my house last Monday evening.

Kate has many traits that I like. She's educated and has a great job - she's a kindergarten teacher at a private school. She's cute and is generally fun to be around. I've had a good time talking to her about her students and being a teacher in general. She and I also share similiar interests in movies, television and in some cases, music. She's Catholic so that's also a plus as she and I share the same faith. Finally, she does not have kids which is something that I consider in the "plus" category at this point.

Now to the negatives - she is overweight. Not past the point where I'm not attracted to her at all but she and I are definitely in different places when it comes to this issue. I'm older, she's 28 and hasn't gotten to the point, if she ever will of embracing physical fitness as a goal to pursue. This not only affects physical attractiveness but also our ability to do certain things together (hiking, traveling, etc). Prevailing advice from my brother and friends is to look past this but ultimately I'm not sure how effectively I'll be able to do that. I'm also not sure if we'll have things to talk about at the end of the day. We converse daily via text but it's not of much substance. Either way, I do plan on continuing to date her in the short term to see if any of these issues resolves.

SUSAN - I currently have a date scheduled with SUSAN for Friday night. We're going to do drinks later on in the evening. SUSAN is a scientist with a doctorate which is impressive but far above my level of education. I'm a history major and an IT guy by trade so I'm not sure what we'll have to talk about but I do appreciate her profession, she's attractive, has no children and is willing to meet with me so I'll give it a go. I'm going to brush up on her area of expertise just a bit before the date so I can have a reasonable discussion without embarrassing myself too badly. We haven't spoken too much to this point; I think we've exchanged approx 10 messages total so I'm going into this one pretty blind.

AMY - I have a date scheduled with AMY for next Thursday. Again, for drinks in the evening. I actually talked to AMY back in September before I dated ABBY. Our conversation fizzled out relatively quickly but I approached her again via e-mail on a whim. Much like last time, our conversation was lacking so I went for broke - I asked her out and gave her my number. She accepted and we've spoken much more via text in the last few days. She's very busy, she's a children's therapist, and therefore has little time for the whole dating thing.

My general impression of AMY thus far is that she's attractive, intelligent, worldly, a great conversationalist (via text) and all in all, put together. She's a few years younger than me without children, pets, etc. So far, so good!

STEPHANIE - STEPHANIE is the youngest out of the women I'm currently talking to at 26 years old. That's pushing the envelope for me a bit as I think we may run into generational issues. That said, she's cute, has a good job (social worker), seems civic minded and is very sweet. She's not replying often but everytime I think STEPHANIE is fading out, she surprises me with a new message. So I don't think anything will come of this but I remain hopeful that I'm proven wrong.

GRETTA - GRETTA and I have been talking off and on for about a week in length. We have about 100 messages on the site between us but have not transitioned to phone, text or any other form of communication in spite of having asked for her number and given her mine. I'm not a huge fan of prolonging the online portion of the dating process so this is a newish scenario for me. That said, she's athletic, attractive and has a great job selling insurance. Our conversations online have been fluid and interesting. So this morning I went for broke and asked her out for coffee on Sunday. She hasn't replied yet so we'll see. I'm realistic in that I expect her to ignore me or ignore my message. I'm hoping to be pleasantly surprised however.

If PA is one of your top ENs, then why settle?

What went wrong with REBA?

Brain - PA isn't one of my top ENs. Still, it is a EN. So... I don't know why I would settle other than if she was able to meet my other ENs in a spectacular manner. Good question.

gerold - With REBA, the communication wasn't there. Her and my fault. We came back from a trip to Europe for a month and she ended it three days later. She didn't agree with the way I raised my kids, didn't agree with me on money matters and ultimately expressed that she would never marry me. At that point, it was over.

GRETTA surprised me by accepting my invitation to coffee on Sunday so now my weekend is fully booked. I confirmed drinks with SUSAN tonight, I'm firming up plans with KATE to go see a movie and dinner on Saturday and now coffee with GRETTA. I'm going to be busy!

Did you ever try to use POJA with Reba?

What was it that she didn't like about you how you raised your kids?

Yes I did without getting into MB specific terminology. She is a very "my way or the highway" woman who was used to getting her way in all aspects of her relationships. I found myself constantly struggling to use POJA because her world view was that she was correct and everyone else was incorrect. When viewed from that angle, coming to mutual decisions was difficult. While this rarely devolved into arguments, it rarely culminated in any type of resolution either.

In regard to what she didn't like about how I parented, she thought I was too tough in some areas and too lax in others. She did not like that I managed my children's behaviors (hers were free to act as they wanted as long as they did not bother her) but felt I was too lax in forcing my kids to participate in activities and management of school work. She was also big into physical punishment which I reserve for very few instances. I found some of her complaints constructive and my kids now are performing significantly better in school. I do appreciate her thoughts on that. But she thought I was soft because I didn't beat my kids for menial things.

Her comments when the relationship ended was that she was afraid for my kids, that they were going to grow up to be worthless members of society because of how I raise them. They get straight A's (even before they got A's and B's) and they're consistently the best behaved kids in the room. They participate in activities after school and have a good group of friends within their social circles. While I'm not a perfect parent, I can't validate her concerns.

This is an interesting post. Do you assume these ladies are dating others as well?

Yes, that is the assumption. Whether they are or not isn't really something I'm worried about at this point. Exclusivity, for better or worse, is not something anyone can assume in the dating world these days. I won't think any of these women are being exclusive with me unless we have that conversation.

Welcome to the world of you wonder why she is still single. I find this kind of Lovebuster plate a lot in dating .... A LOT!!!

I always tell myself it is that kind of selfishness/disrespect that will be their demise as they start to approach middle age. They think they are all cool as crap now...well it's just a matter of time before they realize they are old and their "set in their ways attitude" has pretty much destroyed any good relationships they once had.

Good relationships never last when the person is hopped up on Lovebusters.

This is why I have a six month rule now with men...they get to be my best friend for at least six months before I will grant them access to my heart. I see at least 95% of the time they fall out well before the six month period and it is usually because I see huge red flags all over the place.

I realized that if they don't get "IT" by 40, then likely they will never get "IT", and they will keep that hardcore renter mentality until death.

This why what you are doing by dating a plethora of women is GREAT...really really GREAT!!!

You'll find her...just keep up the great search!

Sometimes I don't wonder very long.... lol. You make valid points though. If they're of this mindset, they're not worth keeping anyway. No relationship can exist for long with that kind of LB dynamic.

My date with SUSAN went well! The first thing I noticed was that she was very pretty, more so than in her pictures which did not do her justice. We shook hands at the beginning of the date which was odd... but I didn't take it amiss since I thought that might be due to the highly professional environment in which she works. We spent approximately three hours at the bar talking about anything and everything. We didn't focus on her work hardly at all and while there were some pauses in the conversation, SUSAN and I each managed to ask enough interesting questions to keep the flow going relatively well. My general impression is that she is interesting, engaging and highly intelligent (a fact that she downplayed).

On the less than positive side, she was extremely stoic and reserved thoughout the date. This made her extremely hard to read. She played with her hair, a classic sign of interest but I got the impression it was more out of nervousness than attraction. While the topics were personal, they did not feel intimate per say. Finally, she mentioned that she is a smoker (which is something I'm not into). While she's not smoking cigarettes at this time, she is using the e-cigarette. I'm not disgusted by smoking per say but I'd prefer to not date a smoker. The e-cigarette does not bother me so as long as that's how it remains, I don't consider this a deal breaker.

So three hours into the date she suggested we call it a night and I agreed. I offered to walk her home (she lives a few blocks from the bar) but she politely declined, said it was nice to meet me and that she'd "see me later." I wasn't confident based on the lack of signals (that I saw) that she was interested so I played it safe and did not attempt to kiss her. I bid her a goodnight and drove home.

Ultimately I had a good time. While her reserved nature and the smoking thing are not ideal, I am at times fairly reserved myself so I understand. I am definitely attracted to her many other qualities so I sent her a thank you text and asked her on a second date. She accepted relatively quickly and confirmed that she had a "great time" with me. Nice! I'll plan something with her soon; she's definitely worth a second date.

Hi TC - I like this thread. It's interesting to see online dating from a man's perspective. Thanks for sharing.

You're very welcome Zhamila! I really benefited from similar threads on different sites and since I was getting back into it after the breakup with AMY, I thought I'd throw this out there. Plus it helps in solidifying some of my thoughts on these women.

My date with KATE on Saturday was uninspiring. We went to a movie, Inside Llewyn Davis, which was incidentally enough, quite good. We had originally intended to see American Hustle but the theater where I had tickets for already was closed due to a burst pipe so we had to improvise. After that, we went out for sushi. The movie was great, the food was great but the company was not.

KATE was back to being very quiet. I had to instigate much of the conversation this time around and there were quite a few awkward silences. Beyond that, I get the impression that she is unwilling to make decisions within the context of dating or a relationship. I've given her options for dates in the past but she has thus far forced me to say "we are doing XXXX tonight" which I don't like. I can't tell what she likes and what she doesn't because she does not voice her opinions on much of anything. This came to a head last night when it was time to pick a movie; we could have waited two hours for American Hustle to start or we could watch something else. I asked her what her preference was and she stated that she was up for anything. When I chose to see an earlier movie, she indicated that she was disappointed indirectly only after I had bought the tickets. I am not a fan of this lack of communication and it illustrates that we are not in sync in this aspect. I took her home after dinner, declined to stay for more than a few minutes and kissed her goodnight.

I think my experiment with KATE is over. While she has qualities I like, I don't think the communication is there and she's much more passive than anyone I've dated before. I can deal with that but I'm not sure I could deal with this inability to voice an opinion. I had to prompt her three times to pick a sushi roll because I wasn't going to pick all of them. All that's left is to tell her that it's not going to work out. Any advice on this one? I continue to have a hard time ending dating with someone as a gentleman.

GRETTA contacted me a few hours before our coffee date today to ask me if we could reschedule because she was supposed to pick up a friend at the airport this morning and his flight was delayed. I replied positively, commiserated a bit and told her that if she let me know when she'd be available next, we'll figure out a good time. If I don't hear from her by tomorrow night, I will suggest Wednesday evening or Sunday night next weekend.

I texted SUSAN last night to schedule a follow-on date this Tuesday. She seemed amenable with a characteristic lack of enthusiasm via text. I sent her a text this afternoon with a couple of options: comedy club, wine bar, history museum and the classic second date favorite, bowling. We'll see how she responds but barring anything unusual, I think we're on for something interesting Tuesday. Additionally, I'm having a drink with AMY on Thursday who I have been diligently texting every once in a while to keep interest alive. She's responded positively each time and I'm looking forward to meeting her.

STEPHANIE hasn't contacted me at all over the last week so I think she's a no-go at this point. I'm not sending out any messages this week because I want to see what happens with AMY, SUSAN and GRETTA.

"Hi Kate. It was very nice to meet you. Unfortunately, I don't think we are a good fit. All the best."

Is that as simple as it needs to be? I feel like there should be more after four dates... lol

Kate clearly doesnt meet your need for IC.

Gretta was the one that blew you off online so her reschedule should be red flags. When I reschedule online dates it's has always been because something better come along...most of the times I don't reschedule either I simply let the guy fade away.

My opinion is to keep looking.

My mistake - I thought it was date number one. I guess I was unable to keep them all straight.

How about the following by telephone with appropriate pauses for her response:

"I've enjoyed getting to know you. However, now that we've been on several dates, I don't really see a future for us so I think it better than we part ways. I wish you every happiness. Take care."

I don't think any details are necessary. Be kind, honest and brief. Most especially, don't waffle.

Alright, talked with KATE and she responded amicably. Thanks kerala!

Home - I agree with you; I don't think a date with GRETTA will ever materialize. I will however give her a chance to prove me wrong. At least for a few more days.

I've been dating someone for a year who I met online and I didn't want a kiss on the first date.

I was strongly attracted to him, but it was just too nerve wracking and too early at that point.

When you've met online, it's not just a first date, it is a first meeting so I'm inclined to class it more as a preliminary. Which will make you more shy and reserved imo than a general first date.

Women really like to be pursued and found attractive so I didn't really have any confidence with him until the second meet. He had MET me and asked out the RL version of me, so I could relax as I felt courted.

A lot of my friends have done online dating and they seem to be of the opinion they don't want a first date kiss either. They are more inclined to end the date with a hug, cheek or air kiss. Which they initiate, so as to be clear and to prevent the man feeling like he has to initiate a full on smooch.

This could be just down to British reserve, though.

The handshake thing is a bit odd, my guess is it was nerves. I also cut the date short after a few hours, because my nerves had taken as much as they could. I needed to regroup and see if he would ask me out again.

I think a brief touch on the upper arm is a good farewell from a first online date.
Maybe a semi hug at most.

I agree: I don't kiss on first dates. And I keep them very short, 45 minutes to an hour. That way, if either party is uninterested, escape is near.

I also like to keep it simple: coffee or a drink. I don't want to spend a man's money when he hasn't even met me yet. Sometimes he is keen to have lunch, and that's ok too - if that's what he wants. But I prefer a first date to hang on $3-$5: I don't feel 'obligated' to like him out of guilt, and our connection (or lack of) is clear, with no fancy props.

For me, the first date is merely an introduction to see if there is any chemistry between us. If times flies and we are both enjoying ourselves, then that's a very good sign and means I'll usually accept a 2nd date. (My average is to accept 1 in 6)

...Just one woman's POV.

TC, have you seen Susan yet again? Been in touch with her?

Please keep us posted

indiegirl and reading - Thank you for the advice and the different perspective. I have kissed girls on the first date but I don't default to that by any means. The majority don't give me those signals.

So a few updates:

I've firmed up details with SUSAN for tonight; we're going to a great little wine bar that has been converted from a old gas station. It should be a great place to sit, talk and hopefully be a bit more comfortable this time around. We're talked via text in brief over the last few days but nothing major so I'm looking forward to hearing how her week/weekend went!

AMY texted me yesterday afternoon just to see how my day was. That was very sweet of her and I really appreciated the reciprocation on the communication thing! I tentatively suggested a few date ideas to her for our date on Thursday and we settled on her favorite wine bar, thankfully a different one than the one I picked for SUSAN and I tonight. I'm looking forward to this date quite a bit!

GRETTA never got in touch with me to reschedule. I sent her a suggestion for Wed night yesterday as I said I would but I don't anticipate she'll respond. GRETTA appears to be a cancel and then fade out. So it's down to two. I'm still holding off sending out another barrage of OKCupid and Match emails until these dates are concluded and I know how it goes with SUSAN and AMY.

Happy Tuesday everybody!

I see her tonight and I'm excited! I'll let you know how it goes. Should be fun; I love this wine bar we're going to.

Thought I'd offer some thoughts since I dated a whole lot of losers and then found a winner via online dating. I met my DH on Match. On our first date it was non-stop conversation - no lack for something to talk about. He did not kiss me good night or even give me a hug. I thought he wasn't interested. As I was falling off to sleep, I got a text from him that said, "I'm not the kind of guy who waits the mandatory 3 days. If I like someone, I don't wait let them know." It was 2 more dates before he kissed me. Here we are 4 years later very happily married.....no kiss on the first date (or second or third) might make her curious enough to hang around....

Maybe. Or it might make her think I've "friend zoned" her.

That's a great story! I'll keep it in mind and see how the evening progresses. I will not force anything. I asked her this afternoon if she'd like me to pick her up and she sent me her address. So it's nice that she's willing to let me be a gentleman. Now I have to remember to not drive like a maniac.

Alright, so the date with SUSAN is in the books and the results are positive!

I picked her up on time and she stated that she was impressed because most people had a hard time finding the place. We drove to the wine bar which was interesting and a great date locale as usual. We enjoyed the wine and the food; both were absolutely excellent. The conversation which was pleasant and generally flowing during the first date was significantly better this time around as there was nary a awkward pause to be found. She seemed to be generally interested in what I had to say and in turn I was interested in her stories as well. We talked a bit about family, work, Bronies and even politics just a bit. It was really nice.

At the end of the date I paid (she offered to cover half but I insisted) and then I drove her home and walked her to her door. She invited me in to see her apartment and meet her cats (Ferdinand and Oscar). I accepted and spent what was probably another hour talking with her in her home. I could tell she was nervous once I was inside her apartment so I kept it very PG. She stated at one point that she was sorry that she kept turning away from me and that she was nervous. I admitted I was nervous as well and we shared a nice hug. It was getting late at that point so I bid her a goodnight and left. She did give me a very platonic pair of kisses as I left which I did not instigate but did not turn down. She also thanked me again for the date and when I asked her if I could see her again, she seemed happy and said, "definitely." All in all it was a really nice evening that I enjoyed very much.

Once I got home, I texted her that I had a wonderful time and was looking forward to seeing her again. I'm going to get in touch with her tomorrow and hopefully arrange something for Sunday evening (next time I don't have the kids and am free).

Why didnt you initiate the kiss?

She was so nervous that I didn't think it was good timing frankly. Mostly it was that. When we were sitting, talking to each other at arms length playing with the cats she was fine but she was incredibly nervous anytime I was close enough to touch her. I think her nervousness bled into me being nervous as well when I'm normally not.

When I said it was time for me to leave though she stepped into me and leaned up so there was my invitation so to speak. Even so, it was very platonic which I think was again a indication of her comfort level.

Sounds like a great date! It's a big deal that she'd let you into her home. It shows she's comfortable with you so far (at least that would be a big deal for me).

I consider it very respectful when a man can read my ambivalence, and keeps himself from forcing a 'move.' It's the ones who push for physical intimacy that I cross off my list quickly.

As to the worry you might be "friend-zoning" her: I'm usually sure a guy is interested when he's asking me on dates. It's pretty clear that he doesn't want to be 'just friends' with me, and I have never worried that I'm in his 'friend-zone,' with or without kissing!

For the record, some of us ladies have been pushed for physical intimacy all our lives by countless men. It starts in high school and can get old, old, old. When a man is considerate enough to think about how I feel about becoming more physical with him, then he goes to the top of my list.

Some of my best experiences have been when we actually talk about kissing and physical intimacy during our dates. We'll discuss it, laugh and joke a little and tease. Once it's on the table, I start looking forward to it - even though I hold him off quite a while - and the sparks start to fly. It's kind of fun.

I mean, it's the elephant in the room anyway...why not talk about it?

For the record, I highly agree with everything Zhamila said above. I pray that God brings me someone like you...same morals, values and respect.

Thanks ladies, I appreciate your insight and votes of confidence!

I texted SUSAN this evening and we tentatively will be seeing each other Sunday evening. She seemed genuinely happy to hear from me and I'm really happy she agreed to another date.

I also firmed up a time for my date with AMY tomorrow evening. She was very communicative and she seems pretty jazzed to meet me. I'm pretty excited to meet her as well but now I'm running into a bit of a mental conundrum.

I'm really enjoying spending time with SUSAN. I know I'm supposed to be objective about this dating multiple women thing. It's about finding the right person for me. At the same time, I have a incurable case of monogamy and as a result, my natural tenancy at those point is to concentrate on SUSAN at the detriment of AMY who I will meet tomorrow.

I feel like that while I want to focus on SUSAN, I need to be objective and give AMY my undivided attention when I'm with her. I need to stay strong... but it's not easy. I recognize I have a tendency to settle for women who may not be what I need to be happy. I'm determined to not do that this time.

I think Susan really likes you. I also think you've been very good at reading her signals and making her feel comfortable.




I don't know if this helps, but I had a similar dilemma. Dr H's words were:





Hope this helps. I was confused as when to 'stop' - should I do the full recommended 30, should I go on past 30? When should I stop?

I think Dr Harley's phrase - When "someone knocks you off your feet" is a great guideline.

It's important to remember too his advice that people don't live together and date for around two years before any commitment.

Under this structure, the person has to continually keep 'knocking you off your feet' in that time period or obviously you won't bother showing up for the next date.

This is so unlike live-in couples who get trapped. They accept boredom, a lack of dates and needs meeting. Instead of needing a reason to carry on, they instead feel they should stick it out unless there is a specifically good reason to move out.

So I wouldn't worry too much. Even when you really like someone so much more than the other people you are meeting, you won't get trapped in an irreversable error using MB. There is still time for the strength of the attraction to be truly tested.

It also helped me to sit down and try to figure out 'logically' why I was being knocked off my feet. Listing, specifically, which of my needs were being met, which of theirs I would be good at meeting; which of the five compatiblity measures were met, which MB principles the person seemed to agree with /disapprove of.

This all helped me a lot.

I also heard a very interesting radio show a while back on the 'when to stop' issue. Dr Harley and his wife had been confidantes for a divorced friend who was getting back on the dating wagon.

She took the 30 dates advice, dated 30 people in total with not a single spark with a single soul in sight.

That would make anyone despondent, wouldn't it?

However Dr Harley told her to keep on - and on date number 31, the man was super into her. He told her she 'had the hair of an angel' and she was delighted to find she was very interested too.

They've been married, happily for quite a few years now.

Somehow I totally missed this. I thought it was don't get married until the two year point, but don't wait too much longer than that either.

I couldn't swear to it, as I've not seen it written down in an article but pretty sure his advice his advice is to date for around two years, and at that point a relationship usually turns into marriage or stops being satisfying.

I remember reading that if you haven't come to the decision to marry within the first two years, that you should abandon the relationship rather than sit in relationship limbo for years and years. I don't remember reading that you should date for two years minimum however. Anyone have a source? I'm curious.

I think Dr Harley said it on the radio show a few months back.

It was some dating question, about whether someone the caller was dating was a good marriage prospect. To the best of my recollection, he told the caller they should give it some time and said something like: "See, I think people should date for two years."

It was my understanding that if you aren't preparing for marriage at the 2 year mark then you are wasting your time with that person. One should know if they are marriage quality by the 2 year mark.

From my dating experience the six month mark speaks volumes about the person. I have seen so much over the sixth month timeframe that I am using it as my marker for all dates. I refuse to get very serious until I see their behavior over a six month period ... six months speaks volumes.

I think that's fair and I tend to agree with you. By the six month mark you've probably seen a good chunk of who that person really is. You've gone on a trip, you've sent the night (possibly), you've ran into a disagreement, you've heard their real taste in music... There's a whole myriad of things that aren't up front and visible in the beginning (or obscured by butterflies).

You've also had the opportunity to try MB such as POJA. That's a huge one!

Two hours before I'm supposed to meet AMY for a drink she texted me to ask for my last name so she could check for felonies. I like this woman already!

Its a little weird she would do that right before the date

Turns out she mainly wanted it so that she could give my name to two of her friends (in case she disappeared). Safety first and honestly, I didn't mind it at all. I've actually cautioned women that I've taken out to do something similar; there are plenty of strange people out there, some of them dangerous.

The date with AMY was really nice. We went to a different wine bar than the one I took SUSAN and the wine she selected was excellent. I enjoyed it and the company quite a bit. My first impression of AMY is that she is well put together, sophisticated, intelligent, quite talkative and significantly more attractive than her pictures. She was easy to talk to and asked significant, interesting questions. She was a good listener and overall a excellent conversationalist.

My overarching impression is that AMY is absolutely out of my league. I hesitate to type those words but that is how I felt and so I'll leave it as it is. I'm normally not nervous on first dates but I definitely was in this case, I think because I felt "out classed" so to speak. I think that colored my interactions with her quite a bit and I was less myself than I normally am. That wasn't always the case; I think I did relatively well talking about common interests and I think for the most part the conversation flowed really well. There was a point where she asked me how I interacted with my xWW and I elaborated a bit more than I should have. Nothing bad, but not first date conversation I felt.

I think the only negative about the first date with AMY, not that it's a negative per say, is that she has a very active social life that takes up a vast majority of her time. She's extremely active in her church, community and within her social circles. It's actually something I admire but could be an obstacle for long term dating. Additionally I didn't really get a good read on whether or not she was into me. I think she had a good time generally speaking but whether or not she sees me as a potential dating companion remains to be seen.

I sent her a text after the date thanking her for spending time with me and expressed a desire to see her again. So the ball is in her court but honestly, I think she's so far out of my league that I either won't hear from her or more likely I'll get a polite refusal pretty soon. Either way, it was a good time.

One complication to the whole thing is that I'm pretty sure SUSAN drove past the wine bar, saw me and waved when I was standing outside waiting for AMY to arrive. Not that this has to be an issue; we haven't had any discussions regarding exclusivity or not seeing other people but I do plan on talking about it sensitively if she brings up seeing me the next time we talk. Of all the places she could have drove past in this huge city...

What is the average cost of your dates?

Also what are you wearing to your dates?

Hey Jedi. The first date normally averages around 25 to 30 dollars. I'm normally catching a drink or two with these women so it never gets too high. My first date with SUSAN cost me 12 dollars for my drink and hers. My first date with KATE was 38 dollars but that included two glasses of wine and a cheese platter. My date tonight was 25 dollars. So I'm not breaking the bank. I always pay for the first few dates so this is a consideration for me. My second date on Tuesday with Susan was over 100 dollars which is unusual for me. I normally try and make the second date low cost such as a museum or walk in a interesting park, a hike, etc. The weather makes some of that tough.

As for what I'm wearing, normally it's a great button down shirt with a nice pair of jeans, belt and a set of dressy boots. When I started dating I had no "date clothes" to speak of so I headed over to one of those well known clothing stores and picked up a date outfit. It cost me about $150 with the boots but I've slowly added pieces, a shirt, another pair of jeans, another winter shirt, etc. Now I have a whole dating wardrobe but the button down shirt, jeans and boots are my go-to date clothes. Not too formal but dressy enough that you can go out just about anywhere and look nice.

Thanks for the scoop on your latest, TC!

Curious, what makes a person "out of someone's league?" Was it that you just think she's awesome? Or that she somehow communicated that she thinks she's awesomer than you? (is that a word?) Was it looks, confidence, something else?

I don't think I've ever felt that way about a man. Is it a guy thing? Then again, maybe I just haven't dated enough gazillionaires...I'd probably think a gazillionaire was 'out of my league.'

On another note, is Susan "knocking your socks off?"

More than likely the "out of my league" thing is in my head. With AMY, I had that feeling as soon as I met her. She is beautiful to a degree that I was very nervous. The level to which she was put together amplified that feeling and nervousness throughout the date. Additionally, I did get the impression that she was out with me more due to my persistence than due to a strong desire to meet me.

I thought SUSAN was out of my league as well for a different reason. With her, I knew I would not be able to compete intellectually. Her doctorate threw me off and I was concerned I would not be able to keep up in that department. That turned out to be a false worry but I only knew that through validation; she accepted a second date and demonstrated that she was interested in me in spite of this apparent inequality. I didn't feel intellectually inferior with AMY; I think we were an excellent match in that regard. The conversation was stimulating and interesting.

So yeah, she blew my socks off. Call it a bunch though, I don't think I did the same for her. SUSAN blew my socks off on the second date; that was when the conversation really opened up and we started having a really good time. SUSAN is beautiful as well in a very different way, one that apparently doesn't make me nervous!

If AMY accepts my invitation for a second date, my dating life will be very interesting for a little while I sort this out. I have not heard from her yet but it was late when I texted her last night. We shall see.

AMY just texted me that she had a nice time and would be happy to see me again. So... lesson learned that I shouldn't rush to snap decisions; my gut was wrong. She's going out of town for the long weekend so I will get in touch with her later to suggest some fun activities for sometime next week. I'm suddenly a busy guy!

In SUSAN news, I'm going to suggest a few things to do for our Sunday date and see what she thinks. One is pretty corny so that could be interesting!

Sir you are becoming the James Bond of dating!

Ha! Maybe less the James Bond and more the Curly, Larry or Moe of dating. I feel like a awkward goober who has no idea what he's doing half the time. I do however believe in faking it until you make it!

I made [censored] up all the time to get through awkward moments ... who's making the rules any way???

One time we were at this park. It was hot and my feet were killing me in my shoes. We started walking next to a Creek. I was so tired of my feet hurting I took off my shoes and started walking in this creek. My date looked at me and I jokingly said to him "I'm hot!!! What's a girl to do?" He thought it was cute I simply wanted my feet to stop hurting. It was the simplest solution I could think of because I literally didn't know how much longer I could walk.

Another time we were walking near a Bath and Body works after dinner ... I forgot to check my breathe at the restaurant (because I knew I was getting a kiss). I told him I wanted to stop inside and wash my hands quickly (because they all have sinks). He didn't realize I went inside brushed my teeth, sprayed a couple squirts of perfume, and took off my lipstick to put on balm. I did it all in a 5 minute time frame.

Like I said making [censored] up in the heat of the moments!!!

Smooth.

Ladies do have the natural advantage when it comes to improvisation because you have purses. You can cram all kinds of useful things in there that guys don't have access to. I know a toothbrush would have been handy on occasion which is why I keep a change of clothes, a towel and other toiletries in my work bag so I can shower at work if I have to and leave date ready! At very least though, every guy should be walking into a date with capstick, breath mints and a small amount of cash. The chapstick because no one wants to kiss those cracked and bleeding lips, the breath mints for obvious reasons and the cash because you don't want to be caught needing a few bucks for parking and being short.

AMY texted me lay night to let me know she landed and to check on my dog who I had mentioned I was getting spayed yesterday. Very sweet of her to think of me!

I've sorted out the date night Sunday with SUSAN; I gave her several choices and she picked coming over to my place so I can cook for her. I'm a pretty dang good cook most nights so this will be an opportunity to impress with my culinary prowess. Or with my pizza ordering skills if it all goes bad.

Update on SUSAN: We had our third date last night and I think we both had a good time! I worked yesterday so as soon as my day was done I rushed home, cleaned up a few things that the kids had left a mess before their mother picked them up and started cooking. She arrived about 15 minutes late; she said she had a hard time finding the place. I made dinner for us (lemon chicken and asparagus) and she brought a bottle of wine. After dinner, we sat on the couch and talked for a few hours until she called it a night and left.

We definitely upped the level of emotional intimacy this date. We talked quite a bit about our pasts, what we wanted from dating and relationships, etc. I shared what I was looking for and she talked about what she wanted: a long term relationship and companion. We talked a bit about marriage in general (she doesn't know if by this point in her life if marriage is in the cards for her), the possibility of her having kids (she's unsure on this point as well) and the fact that I already have three (she doesn't mind). We didn't touch too deeply on any one topic but we did brush over quite a bit.

The level of physical intimacy went up a bit as well; we sat on the couch as we talked and for the most part we were touching throughout the entire conversation. My hand on her leg, her foot on my foot, she held my hand for a bit... you get the idea. At the end of the date I briefly kissed her; it was the same type of platonic kiss from date number two.

I asked her halfway through the date if she was nervous and she admitted that she was. Apparently this is just the way it is and I have a feeling it's going to take a bit before she's truly comfortable with me. In short, she's still feeling me out. I'm ok with this; I'm a relatively patient guy and feel no need to really push anything. Especially considering I don't know what is going to happen with AMY, this is probably for the best. Overall, I definitely see SUSAN as someone I could continue to date exclusively. She's incredibly intelligent, our conversations are satisfying at this time (LB deposits) and I really enjoy being around her. We're seeing each other again tomorrow and I'm looking forward to it.

On the AMY front, I sent her a quick text yesterday afternoon wishing her a happy Sunday and a great mini-vacation. She responded positively and I promised to send her a few date ideas for her to choose from today. Time to put on my thinking cap!

Ice skating date? I recently went on one...and even though I was really really terrible at it, I thought it was an incredibly cute idea

Sir, you are doing great...but the ultimate challenge would be to add another woman into the date life....and try to be with all three in one night (ie. at the restaurant with Amy, while excusing yourself to go to the bar with Susan...while texting #3)......

Great idea, thank you! I sent that suggestion along with three others: bowling/billiards, museum date (there are a ton of great museums here) and the most adventurous: snow tubing at the local ski resort about 30 minutes outside of town. All "let's get out of the standard restaurant and DO something" dates!

Ha! I've heard of/seen people doing things like like that and don't think I could pull it off. Too stressful, it'd probably send me into a panic attack!

Dating multiple people at the same time is new for me; normally I would have not gone on that date with AMY because I had been out with SUSAN twice and wanted to keep seeing her. By now I would have retired my online dating accounts and told SUSAN I wasn't going to see anyone else so I could see how things went with her. But... I told myself I wasn't going to do that this time. I want to make sure I keep interviewing, making sure that I find the right woman for me. I hope I'm doing the right thing!

Well, I certainly wouldn't say that you're doing the wrong thing!

The important thing is to not mix up their stories or anything like that or call them by the others name.

Alright ladies and gents, I have officially been friend zoned by SUSAN. She took me out to a nice Indian restaurant last night and we generally had a good time. I steered conversation away from her work since that topic has been dominating our time together lately. We drove back to her place, she invited me up and then we had "the conversation." I'm kind of sad about it honestly; as much as I have been preaching the mantra that I have to not settle for one person early and find the right girl, I really enjoyed the time we spent together. She has many of the qualities that I'm looking for and I definitely could have pictured exclusivity in our future.

Unfortunately she stated that her work has her too busy; she has many things going on beyond work that she didn't want to get into as well. Possibly a ex or family issues... who knows. Either way, she doesn't want anything serious at this time and didn't want to lead me on. I appreciate the consideration and we will likely continue to see each other casually from time to time. She does want to hang out on occasion and I'm down for that... eventually.

Pretty bummed about it though.

In the AMY front, she initiated a text conversation with me last night and we chatted for a good hour before going to bed. She chose the ice skating date (thanks SusieQ!) and we're on for that this Saturday afternoon. So yeah, I'm pretty excited about that and I'm optimistic regarding the level of between date communications. AMY wants to chat which is nice because I do as well. Not being chatty with SUSAN between dates was tough for me; I'm pretty social!

In other dating news, I tried out a new dating app called Tinder. This is interesting because it's very visceral; you select that you're interested or not in a person almost entirely by their pictures. It's very fast and is supposed to mimic natural reactions when you meet someone (ie. not having a wealth of info in a profile when you meet a guy or girl on the street). If you both are interested, then you're allowed to communicate. So far I've chatted briefly with two women:

BERNADETTE - I recognize her from OKCupid. I believe I messaged her before with no results however on Tinder she messaged me first. Interesting. She's cute and eight years younger than I am but beyond that, I have nothing else to go off of. We chatted for a few minutes and then I was off to my date with SUSAN. We agreed to chat later when we're both not busy.

DANA - DANA also messaged me first after mutually liking each other. She quickly moved into asking for sex within a few messages so I blocked her. Not what I'm interested in (casually anyway). Next.

Anyway, that's it for now. I might send out a new round of e-mails on OKCupid and Match today. I might not. My 10 year old has his spelling bee this morning so I will be getting ready for that shortly. Wish him luck!

Bummer about Susan! But Amy initiating texts = a good sign.

I've always been under the impression that Tinder is for hook-ups, not real dating - doesn't it only math you up with people within a certain mile radius?

Have you tried POF?

Hey JM385. I'm not sure honestly. I guess time will tell but I think different sites get that label depending on where you are. For instance in the St Louis area, POF is the primary hookup site. I don't know the reputation of Tinder here though. I just read an article on it and it's apparently quite hot in the UK as a legit dating app. Most of the women it shoes me are within a 50 mile radius, yes.

How interesting that it's so different up here in Chicago. I know more people who have found a long-term relationship on POF (myself included) than any other site.

Well you're having fun and you've got great stories to tell, so either way you're winning!

Sorry to hear about Susan. Her loss. Next!

Great! Now you can make it even more cute and hold hands while you skate...

I looked up this app and saw that you need FB to log in and that this helps to cut down on catfishers, etc. Now, can the person you chat with see your FB info?

I'll have to give this a whirl if I manage to stay on my feet long enough to do so... I don't want to drag the poor girl down! In regard to Tinder, yes it does use your FB profile but it doesn't import anything other than the pictures you tell it to from your albums. It doesn't post to FB for you, they can't see any of your FB posts, etc. Just the pics you specify and the small blurb you write.

YES...These apps are always the back doors into it!! Remember folks apps are basically keyloggers and spyware. You agree to give the app permission to run your phone/tablet for you, and store/house all its activity at a secondary server location.

Facebook is evil. (I'm pretty sure that is what HSH was getting at.)

They more or less track everything you do, and the more sites they hook into, the more they can track.

Any time you have a company with that kind of money/revenue, they must have a product they are selling. In the case of facebook, with the free accounts, that product is you!

ak

I promised myself no more of this texting/chatting/emailing stuff for at least a month or two. I was just going to "check it out" Now I have wasted about an hour. What did I get myself into!!!

You can blame it on me, it's all my fault.

It's OK, I should be thanking you. I have a couple dates lined up and chatting with someone that I had noticed on Match, but we never connected there - he was the first person to contact me here. Super cute and nice. Let's see.......

HSH, think about giving it a shot when you are ready to date again!

That's really cool! Sometimes a fresh perspective is a good one. :-)

Ok so an update is in order.

AMY and I have a date tomorrow afternoon at 2pm for ice skating. I asked her if she'd like me to pick her up; she does. So I get to be a gentleman!

I started putting myself back out there on Match, OKCupid and Tinder. I talked to several interesting ladies thus far, a few with some promise. I'll start with STEPH. I messaged her and we opened up a dialog pretty quickly. She turned out to be a "stage 5 clinger" for those of you who get the reference. We talked a bit on the app and then when we exchanged numbers, she blew it up, almost literally. I think there was smoke coming out of it from the number of text messages I was getting. She also revealed quite a bit of intimate information about her past that threw up more red flags than a Chinese parade. Not what I'm looking for.

Next is TINA. TINA has a cute face although she hasn't posted any pictures of the rest of her. Regardless, she's engaging, a bit brash, very blunt and entertaining. She's currently on vacation but I have a tentative commitment from her to get a drink with me when she gets back. I'll text her on occasion over the weekend to maintain interest. I'm interested but at this point not highly interested. I really great date with AMY or HELEN (below) could push her off the bubble.

Finally, there's HELEN. Based on her pictures, HELEN is HIGHLY attractive; she's also seven years younger than I am. I texted with her back and forth quite a bit over the last day. She lives close to me, is an engaging conversationalist and is very impressed with my level of family commitment. This could be because she has a 3 year old daughter and just got out of a nasty divorce where her ex husband gave up his parental rights to their child. This divorce was final less than two weeks ago. It's likely too early for her to date anyone but... I don't know that. Her divorce has been going on for a while. I'm scheduled to have a drink with her on Thursday. If nothing else, I wouldn't mind the company and the opportunity to show a pretty lady a reasonably good time. She could probably use it after a bad divorce. Maybe I'm rationalizing because I'm attracted to her and want to take her out. I don't know... Thoughts?

Just go out with her.
She may or may not be as attractive in real life.

That is how you figure it out.

Yes, it may be too soon after her divorce but at least she IS divorced. If not (if she is exaggerating about it being final, you will find that out)

I went out on my first Match date three weeks post-D. I was ready and it was great!!! Helen may not be ready for a relationship but it could still be fun. A drink is an easy meet up so just go and enjoy.

Not sure I'd text someone I haven't met while they are on vacation. I would get annoyed by that.

HELEN is perfect to friend zone ... she'll need about a year to get back on her feet, but don't lose hope.

Friend zone some of these women ... they really help with the contrast effect. The ones that stay friends are good because they have enough maturity to stand on their own two feet and be friends.

I love friend zone guys ... they keep me grounded from the crazies!!!

What do you drive to pickup your date in?

Thanks ladies, I appreciate the encouragement! Speaking of friend zoning, I just finished talking to SUSAN. We're going to hang out tomorrow night as friends once I'm done with my date with AMY. And Sunday I'm hanging out with KELLY who I briefly dated but friend zoned in a previous round last year. Contrast is good and I kind of like having female friends while I'm single. I'm ok with that going away once I'm not though.

black-raven - I'm only matching her on the texting; she's been texting me on and off throughout. She's an interesting lady... who may be a bit much in person.

Jedi - What do I drive? My super sweet dad mobile... a 2014 Honda Accord Sport. Nice car but not impressing anyone.

Two updates:

I ended up talking with SUSAN on the phone instead of hanging out with her yesterday afternoon. The reason she wanted to see me was because she wanted me to know she hasn't been truthful with me; the reason I was friend zoned was because she was seeing someone else she was getting serious with. I congratulated her and chatted for a bit before I let her go.

My date with AMY was really nice. I picked her up at her place and we went to grab some coffee prior to going to the art museum. We had previously both decided to nix ice skating due to how bad the weather had been recently. We sat and talked for a bit, went to the museum and then she accepted my invitation to an early dinner before her plans later that evening.

I personally had a really good time! We spent most of the afternoon/evening talking about just about everything from family to music. The conversation rarely flagged and I found her opinions/observations fascinating. I think we have a reasonable amount of things in common and she has a really engaging personality. In the negative, she does live on almost the other end of town and it took significant time to get to her. That doesn't bother me but it could be an issue for her if we continue to date. I will say I had a hard time reading her signals; she seemed to be having a good time but I don't know if she's into me at this point. I guess that's what follow on dates are for!

At the end of our evening, I drove her home, walked her to her door and hugged her goodnight. She texted me on my way home that she had a nice time so I reciprocated and asked her out for Wednesday. She accepted so we're on for then. I just need to figure out what we're doing. I normally invite a date back to my place on the third date for dinner but I may do something different this time.

Gotcha


Lol...can't wait to read about this one.

I agree! ;-)
No, It's really hard for a guy to date multiple women at first and the natural tendency to just pick one sounds very familiar to me.

Great thread TC. Second time I read it word by word...
Really nice to read your thoughts and feelings and how you deal with it.
I have been staying away from internet dating and did the real life dating thing for a year.

Couple of differences I noticed:
Seems there is a lot more rejection to deal with while internet-dating.
Internet dating starts of with romantic interest right away.
Internet dating is as intensive as the real life thing.

Sending out 'bulkmails' on dating sites is a very good tip!

Do you personalize these mails or are they a standard copy/paste thing, if I may ask so? :-)

Sounds like the date went well! Great! I think it's normal that you can't read a woman's signal this early into it. My guess is that if she has agreed to go on another date, she's definitely interested. Just my 2 cents...

More on Tinder for anyone thinking about joining...it's a little nerve wracking because there is really no information from the profile like there would be on Match. I am going out a guy from there for the first time tonight (a dif one, BR). If it goes bad, I am hold you responsible, tcc!! haha I was at least able to verify some info he gave me with his name...

Gerold - Thanks, I'm glad you're enjoying reading it. I'm enjoying living it... sort of. In regard to the bulk replies, that doesn't really work per say. I normally have a general outline I do follow however. I read over her profile and key in on something specific that I feel like I can talk about intelligently. Then I introduce myself, comment on her profile, something specific and then ask a question. The question makes it easier for her to respond.

SusieQ - Have a great time on your date! I bet it'll go swimmingly but if it doesn't, it can be my fault. Lol

I think it's normal to not be able to read her well by this point but how things went with SUSAN is kind of throwing me off to be honest. I'm not sure why... but I'm less confident in some way with AMY. It's throwing me off my game so to speak. I'm kind of a mess honestly.

I feel more invested into AMY when I have no reason to be. I like her quite a bit and I think that's making me awkward. When my phone beeps, I hope it's her. It's not a good place to be in after two dates and a bunch of texts.

Yesterday I sent HELEN a few suggestions for places to get a drink and I haven't heard back. So, I will get in touch with her today at some point to confirm we're still on for Thursday. If not, I'll invite TINA out that evening. She's back in town and still texting me so I wasn't to nail down a first date quickly.

In regard to AMY, she responded to my text late in the day with some pleasantries and a vague confirmation of our date Wednesday so I think we're on. I think she wants to go to see The Woof of Wall Street. "I think" because she had some friends over and responded to my list of suggestions (one being that movie) with "Leo!" Lol. We'll talk today and iron it out I'm sure.

I'm thinking about taking down the dating site accounts for a month or two. I've been at this for a month and already feeling a bit burnt out on the whole process. I probably would have already but I'm a bit worried at what message that might send to AMY mainly. I don't want to come off as pushy for exclusivity at this stage but I don't want to make it seem like I don't want to date at all. Thinking about it though.

Yeah, I know....the stage where you get a big goofy grin on your face at least a few times a day, right? lol. That's good!

I am all about taking breaks from online dating. I take more breaks than I stay on it! But don't take down your account yet if you really like Amy...it might scare her off. I would wait...

Oh! My date went well so we can still be friends...

Yeah, that's the feeling alright. But... it's a level of vulnerability that is disconcerting when dating, at least for me. I've had that not work out enough in recent history that I'm a bit gun shy. It's a great thing when both people are into each other though... hoping I can figure out whether AMY is reciprocating soon.

Congrats on your great date!

You have to be vulnerable. You cannot protect your heart 100% in dating. You have to rely on logic alone. One of the hardest changes (habits to change) is the idea of taking a relationship slow....especially in today's fast paced go at lightning speed.

Relationships need time. I have found keeping arms length for at least six months is what has served me best. More often than not the friendship cannot sustain that timeframe. People our age have very bad habits, and you don't fully see them unless you give the relationship time.

I would stop worrying about if Amy is into you versus more of how can I keep her at arms length to really get to know her over the next five months.

Don't force a back reflection ... be thankful she is treading lightly. Because if you want anything better than a renter relationship make darn sure she is not doing anything that either she sacrifices for or that you have to sacrifice at.

This is the time honesty must play a key role here ... her honesty and how well she is able to be honest will be seen by her ability to keep her taker in check and not feel the need to sacrifice and/or force you to sacrifice.

You know what I mean?

HSH the one friend I have in a happy marriage did just what you said. The part that threw me off is the celibacy in the meanwhile, isn't that difficult?

I do know what you mean. I think the practice of this is going to be harder than understanding the concept though. I have this pattern of diving into relationships and that dynamic is likely the reason why I've ended up in the relationships I've ended up in since my divorce. I'm with NED; what does that look like? Celibacy is hard. Keeping someone you're increasingly attracted to, having feelings for, etc at arms length is hard. Dating is supposed to be fun.

I kid, I know there's plenty of fun in there and I plan on having lots of it as the years go by. I want a buyer's relationship and I know without a doubt sacrifice will kill that. Once I find that person I want to invest in, whether it be AMY or someone else down the road, I need to adjust from dating casually to dating for commitment. I wonder what it would be like to have a MB style relationship from the beginning rather than having to try and talk a unwilling spouse into trying it. At the same time, I don't want to still be trying to find that relationship twenty years down the line. I'm ready. Bring it on.

So I had a date scheduled with HELEN on Thursday but she hasn't responded to my text on Sunday with suggestions or to my text yesterday asking about her day. So... I think it's relatively safe to say that HELEN is going to be a no-show. That's a shame but not a huge one as I'm focusing on AMY more at this point. I think my serial monogomist is trying to break free because I wasn't excited about the date with HELEN as much as I normally would be and I'm even less excited about a date with TINA. That said, TINA is back in town and wants to go out with me so... I'll suggest drinks on Thursday and see if she's game for it. She is an absolute riot via text so I can imagine any date with her will be memorable at the very least. That woman can talk and knows exactly what she thinks/wants! I'm talking to one other individual via OKCupid's messaging app but I'm not getting much in the way of reciprocating communication from her so I'm not paying her that much attention.

I have a date tomorrow with AMY (pending feeling ok, I may be coming down with something) and am very much looking forward to it. She and I have been texting back and forth; I asked her yesterday if she likes talking on the phone (she does). She was busy last night but we may chat tonight. I'm looking forward to that as well; it feels like it's been a while since I've spoken to her. I really want to hear how her day went, the latest work drama she ran into yesterday, etc.

I think I'm going to let the OKCupid, Match and Tinder profiles die on the vine so to speak. If exclusivity develops with AMY, that would be great. If AMY doesn't pan out and something develops with TINA, that would be great as well. That said, I need a break if neither of these women work out. So... I don't think I'll be sending out any more messages in the immediate future. It might be time to work on the basement, work out more or just generally relax.

I know myself though... if in a few weeks I'm not dating anyone and have no dating prospects lined up I will have to fight myself not to get back in the game.

So as soon as I arrange a date with TINA for Thursday, HELEN texts me for the first time in two days. Go figure!

Not if you fully grasp the concept of having great sex...there is a great discussion about it in dating. I refuse to let some man come between me and my SF ... that's exactly what I would get if I had to audition for the guy.

I'm not settling for a louse this time around...hell no not in my do-over!!!

Come on people.....celibacy is not THAT difficult to handle.

There is something I read that I recall often: "Some use sex as a means of finding values, while others use it to celebrate and express their values"

I think they're examples abound that this isn't true for everyone. Look around this board at all the husbands and wives pigeon holed into celibacy due to poor marriages. We all know the world is rife with single people making poor choices when it comes to sex. It's not easy... regardless of your moral position on the subject.

I personally find sex outside of a committed relationship unfulfilling. Within that relationship however, it's such an amazing expression of love, passion, caring, etc. I realize too early it can force intimacy in a relationship and a whole host of other issues that have been talked about ad naseam on this board.

So yes, I agree that sex can be an expression of your morals. I agree that waiting can absolutely be worth while, especially if you value the prospect of a long term relationship/marriage that is based on compatibility, meeting needs, etc. But not that hard? If waiting was a piece of cake, everyone would be doing it and unplanned pregnancies, shotgun weddings and STDs would not exist!

My experience: The more you talk about how difficult something is, the harder it feels. ANY boundary can feel impossibly difficult if you dwell on how hard it feels.

And those people are a great example of why self-control is important. After all, addressing their unmet sexual needs by having an affair is one of the most devastating things they could possibly do.


But a Renter's agreement relationship isn't really a "committed relationship."

True.

The third date with AMY was tonight and we kissed. Grinning from ear to ear! More details later... good night MB forum!

That's great, TC! Just catching up...

I can empathize that dating is tiring! I personally would rather get to an exclusive relationship than keep 4 men on rotation. Dr. Harley says to date 30, but if you find one you like, don't force yourself to keep dating other people. If Amy works out, then I'll be happy for you!

Have a great weekend! Hope to hear more about this fabulous "Amy."

Well?!

Yes ma'am! Lol...

So earlier yesterday I was feeling a bit under the weather. I texted AMY to let her know that I still wanted to see her but I would understand if she wanted to postpone. She replied, "I want to see you tonight." Fair enough!

That night I picked her up and took her to a wine bar for dinner and then The Wolf of Wall Street. Side bar, that movie is morally bankrupt! It was a great evening. Dinner was perfect, the conversation was wonderful and I my date was beautiful. At one point I told her that I was nervous but not as much as the first two dates. She told me that I was really good at dating. When I inquired what she meant, she said that I opened does for her, treated her like a lady and generally acted like a gentleman. She's been waiting for me to make a mistake but so far I hadn't.

After the date, I drove her home. The car ride was more... tense. When I walked her to her door she turned around after opening it, hugged me and then kissed me! It was really, really wonderful. We agreed to see each other again and then I drove my happy butt home.

What a great evening with a great girl! I feel horrible today; I'm exhausted and sick but it was sooooo worth it. This morning I texted TINA and HELEN that I had to cancel our dates for tonight because I had found someone I wanted to date exclusively. So... that's what happened.

I haven't told AMY I'm not going to see anyone else; I don't know if that would be a good idea at this point but I couldn't in good conscience see other women when I just want to date her. We're going to see each other next week sometime; date/time/location to be determined as of yet. I'm really looking forward to it! Now I just need to figure out how to "play it cool."

Oh, I did retire all my dating apps and sites other than OKCupid... where I met AMY. I won't retire that until I talk to her about how I just want to date her. I don't want to freak her out.

Oh come on...
James Bond could be sleeping with one woman and meeting another for cocktails an hour later..

How exciting TC! She musta thought you were taking too long to plant one on her, ha

So, I met my sweetie in August (POF). I remembering not wanting the date to end and when I talked to my BFF about it the next day I told her I just had a feeling about him. I just knew it. At the end of our second date, we both talked about how we didn't want to date anyone else anymore and we both took our profiles down right then and there. Last weekend, we got engaged - getting married in July!

While I appreciate the logic behind dating plenty before you settle down, and dating a certain length of time, I also think that you know yourself best and sometimes you just have to go with your gut.

Hope you feel better soon! And thanks for blogging about your experiences, it's quite entertaining!

Thats wonderful news Justme385!

Justme85,
I've heard Dr Harley recommends a 2 year engagement but I'm not sure if thats accurate.

Is your boyfriend willing to follow the POJA?

Yes!!



I know everyone is different but I personally get the "fight or flight" response when a guy gets too mushy early on! I would prefer to go with the flow for a little bit...

What's her story? Recently divorced? Kids?



PS - congratulations JustMe!!!!

Thanks! He is definitely willing. We POJA all the time, little things, big things. I don't think I've ever actually put a name on it for him - he's been POJAing unknowingly.

I'm not positive of what's recommended either, but I agree his courtship or engagement advise was on the longer side. We're going against his advise on that one though - I'm 35 (hubby to be is 42)and we definitely want kids. I no longer have plenty of time (as I used to say whenever someone asked me if I wanted kids).

Ok I'm done hijacking TCs thread.

JustMe, I don't mean to discourage you. I've heard those things work out great, for a couple of folks I know. So I figured maybe me too, why wait, and got engaged when we were dating 6 months, and set the wedding for a little over a year after we started dating. Then later when the chemicals started wearing off and I had serious questions, I had a wedding to postpone. And then this last December I found some stuff out that really I should have seen coming, and we broke up this month. I wanted so much to have a two parent family for my kids again that I would repeatedly talk myself out of my concerns as they came up. Working against myself.

In 2010, you posted because your then boyfriend was too close to his ex. Last January you posted that your friends thought you were settling for someone who wasn't going to marry you and didn't want kids, and then you did finally break up after that. I'm sure it wasn't easy.

I'm just saying, I think you're like me, have a tendency to attach first and look out for yourself later, after the chemicals have worn off. That's what these chemicals do! How about checking with your doctor, maybe one year won't make as much difference to your fertility as you thought.

If you go ahead, I will still support you and root for you 100%. But I'm glad folks asked me why the rush and what's wrong with giving it 2 years.

Thanks NED - I appreciate your advice. It's not like we're getting married quickly - I'm only saying I don't know that we'll wait a full 2 years... I certainly don't want to be pregnant on my honeymoon and I want a kick-@ss honeymoon ... so there's still plenty of planning (and saving) to do.

You're actually the first person who has asked "what's the rush"!

Bond probably wasn't interested in a MB relationship that could eventually lead to a wonderful and fulfilling marriage either.

Congratulations! That's such a great story! And yes, maybe she was tired of me taking it slow on the whole kissing thing but it was worth it. I think we're going to see each other Monday so I'm hoping I feel at least 90% by then.

Yeah... I'm kind of torn. I'm thinking of just telling her something along the lines of, "I like you quite a bit so I'm going to take down my dating profile so I can concentrate on seeing where this goes. Doesn't mean you have to of course. :)"

What is her story? She's never been married and has no children. She's three years younger than me. From what she's told me, she's been focusing on her work for the most part but also that she hasn't found the right guy. She wants to have kids someday of her own but is open to the concept of dating someone with kids if it's the right guy.

So... yeah. I read that she's picky (which is good) and isn't going to settle for Mr. Right Now (also good). I think she has good boundaries based on what I've seen so far which is excellent. Plus she's smart, funny and beautiful. All really great qualities.

The Wolf of WallStreet was awful. That must have been an awkward movie to sit through with a date. Was the car ride home tense because of the movie or because it was ??? about a good night kiss?

It was definitely tense because of the kiss. The movie was devoid of any morality. That I think was a bit weird because she and I are both pretty moral people... but it was ok. I think she was trying to figure out how the date was going to end and I know I was nervous about it... lol

No he wasnt. Unfortunately, his life as a secret agent wouldnt be MB compatible

Do I get this timeline straight?

- 9th januari: dates planned with 4 unknown woman incl. Amy
- 31th januari: dating Amy exclusive.

I am going to get slaughtered for this question maybe, but I like bold difficult questions:

Isn't this going WAY TOO fast?

No, it's a fair question. I think "too fast" depends on the people involved here. But really what have I done? I've weeded out the other women for whatever reason and declined first dates with two more. I haven't broached exclusivity with AMY and I haven't taken down my dating profile on OKCupid. I may do both those sometime soon but all I've done so far is deem the other dating partners unsuitable. I took down the other two dating sites in large part because I need a break from dating multiple people anyway.

So what happens if I've made a horrible decision and AMY either drops me or I end it with her in two weeks? I turn it all back on and start fresh... no harm, no foul. I don't "think" I'm moving too fast but I'm curious what the MB collective thinks.

I think this Amy girl is probably seriously good looking, is intelligent, and kind, so you are going to focus on her because she absolutely has your attention and none of the others compare.

I would do the same.

That said, be careful to notice her intent and actions. If you are anything like most men the prettier she is the easier it is to miss the red flags.

Harley often encourages single callers to ask their dates about their philosophy on relationships.
Are you doing this?

I'm keeping an eye out, trust me. I'm good at noticing red flags but I'm much less adept at heeding them. It's pretty easy for me to explain them away when I shouldn't.

Yes, indeed I am. I often float MB ideas regarding relationships by the women I date and see what they say. I haven't done so with AMY yet I don't think... but plan on it soon.

And... AMY just called to say she didn't think we should date anymore because she was seeing someone else and while we hadn't discussed exclusivity, she felt bad that she went on a date last night with another guy. Sigh... carbon copy almost to SUSAN.

So I hung up the phone with her and then called her back almost immediately because... I don't know why honestly. We talked for a bit and she stated that she felt guilty for going on a date but she had really wanted to meet this guy for a long time and she really enjoyed herself. She enjoyed going on dates with me as well and loved our conversations. I told her that I hadn't assumed we were exclusive and that I didn't mind continuing to see her if she was interested now that her cards were on the table so to speak. She said that while she doesn't want to date multiple people, she could try for a little while and would like to see me. So... we're seeing each other Monday; I'm going over to her place after work.

There you go MB community... a kink. I could use some advice and guidance here. I'm not ready to give up on AMY yet but directly competing with another man for a woman is not something I've done before. My gut is in knots and I'm kind of a mess right now.

This sucks.

It doesn't suck.

Just date Amy if she is interested but don't expect to be her one and only. Enjoy going out. Enjoy kissing her if she wants to do that.

Don't get caught up in obsessing about 'owning' her as yours.

She is a free agent.

You either chose to hang out with her knowing that or you don't participate.

This will give you the freedom to date others too.

You found Amy pretty quickly and there are other Amy-like women out there.

Okay?

Crap.

She could either (a) being completely honest with you (which I don't think is the case...) (b) be really liking some other guy or (c) started getting nervous that you were getting a little too serious too fast. or a little bit of both b and c.

That's why I kept telling you to keep the profile open and just go with the flow. I feel like that has happened to me a couple times now...where the guy just gets way too serious too fast and it makes me uncomfortable.

I say go over Monday and try to just have fun and see what happens. Hang in there!

x 2

I know she's a free agent; I promise I never lost sight of that. What I say here about my emotions, feelings, etc isn't how I convey myself on our dates either. I think the only thing we've done that could be considered "fast" is we fell into casual daily texting about our days, etc.

I guess the thing that has me frazzled is I was very close to her dropping me today. I'm glad I called her back but still frazzled. I will see her Monday but I'm not sure what to expect at this point when I walk in that door. I'll do my best to be confident. She said I've done nothing wrong and everything right... so... I'll keep doing that I guess.

Yeah, but we can tell, tcc! Trust me! When you guys start getting serious, you drop hints like crazy. My girlfriends and I have discussed this MANY times...

Even if you weren't and that's not the problem or whatever....If it doesn't work out, brush it off and go on to the next one! It's not that big a deal! You'll be over it in a couple of days and NEXT!

Maybe so, maybe so. You ladies have uncanny intuitions. I'll play it cool for a couple of days and then see how Monday goes. I'm not going to go meekly... I'm going to be fun and kiss the hell out of her if she lets me.

Are you going to start your profile back up?

There ya go!!! lol

The profile is still up, only took down match and tinder. I may turn them both back on depending on how Monday goes but I think I am slightly burnt out and raw on the whole dating thing. It's been about a month and a half of solid dating (I was at it before I started this thread) so I think I'm going to have to evaluate next week whether I want to take a break. I'm not feeling well (kids have me their cold) and the thought of trying right now isn't appealing. Maybe later.

No problem with evaluating for later.

It's a good idea to give yourself time. Things always look dim when you don't feel well. Get to feeling well, friend.

Thanks Brain, I appreciate it! I'll do my best.

I went out with dd8 to buy super bowl food for my party tomorrow and I think I worked this whole AMY thing out in my head. I have my way forward and if it doesn't work out, I'll deal with it and move on. But I'm not rolling over because some guy caught her eye. I'm a sexy, intelligent and all around awesome guy. I have a lot to offer. This other guy... not my problem.

Does anyone wonder if Amy was just making herself the more assertive partner in the relationship in these early stages by pulling away and seeing if TC would continue in pursuit?

What if TC has a decent time this coming Monday, but he calls the time short of what she might expect? TC could have additional plans to get together with some friends and leave her wondering what else he has going on.

You two are NOT exclusive, but i feel that she sensed that you were heading in that direction sooner than she was ready and got cold feet. Time for you to gently pull away and leave her curious i think.

LTL

Maybe. I don't think she's playing games though. There was an air of finality when we hung up the first time.

Good outlook to have sir

This is where I disagree.
In Gone With the Wind, Scarlett is first seen with two young men, both desperately trying to win her over....literally tripping over each other as they all 3 walk hand in hand....
then comes Rhett Butler...strong, independent...and attractive.

I think you should have said "Well best of luck" and left it at that.

Here is my theory:

I think she feels attraction for you otherwise you wouldn't have turned around and planted one on you. That's a good sign, however I think being needy about seeing her will destroy that attraction.

The way I see it, you basically have two options, either pursue her and and try to talk her into choosing you, or treat her like her like she is your sister and wait and see what happens.

I think the second option has a far better chance of success, because it communicates that you are strong, confident, polite, and don't need her to choose you.

ak

Alright sports fans, I have a date planned with KAREN on Tuesday evening. She's 30, adventurous, likes to scuba dive and is pretty darn cute. Never married, has no kids. She also lives relatively close to me so the drive won't be bad at all. Still have my OKCupid mojo I guess.

Oh, KAREN is also a fan of the Oxford comma so that will be a topic of conversation since it's been debated so heavily on other threads.

Jedi and ak1 - there in lay the differences of opinion. I'm inclined to pursue her but the advice is split between that, playing it cool and saying adios. I guess we'll see how it turns out... I'm not sold in any one direction right now.

if you treat her like a sister, you are in the "friend" zone.
I have no desire to have "friends" that are single attractive women.
If youre not careful she could ask you to go shopping with her next...

Hmmm.
Is something missing here?

So how do you know she likes the Oxford comma?

She put it in her profile... can you see me rolling my eyes over here ak1? Lol

TC- I didn't know about the Oxford comma until you posted about it.

So in your opinion, should another one be included in the path list above?

Seriously curious.

LOL.

I vote

no

on using an Oxford comma on that sentence.

Depends on what you mean... do I think another comma should be used? No. I think the Oxford comma is a waste of perfectly good typeface. Do I think I should add another path in my approach to AMY? I don't think I have any other options than the ones listed. Unless you're suggesting I process my undying love, propose marriage and ask her to have twenty babies with me. In which case I respectfully decline.

On the AMY front, she and I chatted via text of and on throughout the day and I was careful to let her initiate. She suggested I call her after the folks at my Superbowl party cleared out which I did. We talked for a solid half an hour about all kinds of things and it was a really good conversation. I'm going into this date tomorrow ready be awesome; I'll let you kind folks know how it goes when I get home tomorrow night.

KAREN on the other hand texted me almost non-stop all day with the exception of when I had company over. I enjoyed it... I'm just hoping there's something left to talk about on Tuesday evening! I kid; if she's the right one then there will be. She's very funny and seems to get my sense of humor which is very nice! Looking forward to my date with her quite a bit.

After a long 12 day at work, I picked up food and went over to AMY's house to eat and play games. The food was excellent and the company nothing to complain about either (although it felt a little tense). After dinner we played five rounds of cards and then talked while sitting with each other on the couch. We were comfortable, touching and then I kissed her. And kissed her. And kissed her. It was pretty wonderful.

A while later she pulled back and out of the blue said she was never going to move to my town (about 35 min away). I wasn't surprised by this declaration and told her that I knew. She seemed shocked... asked if it was a deal breaker. I told her no and that I knew her life was up in St Louis. We talked a bit about that and the kids; after that was done we got back to cuddling and kissing for the rest of the evening.

I think I found the root of all this. She is single, hasn't dated much and my life is full of complications. I'm a dad of three kids and have an ex to whom I was married to for twelve years. I have a home I own in a town she never wants to live in. These are a lot to process. I talked to her about it in brief, let her know that I wanted to see her regardless of these complications and that I wasn't worried at this point. One thing at a time.

We both had an excellent time and while I'm sure she's still going to date this other guy, I'm much more confident tonight than I was Saturday. This date went perfectly in my opinion! We're scheduled to see each other this weekend at some point; can't wait!

Sounds like a nice smoochy time with Amy, TC! I have some thoughts after re-reading your thread:

Here's my take on dude #2: this other guy had probably been emailing/texting for a while but hadn't bothered to meet her in person. (This is annoying if she wanted to meet him). He isn't too interested in her, but she's interested in him. So when he finally asked her out, she was excited and enjoyed herself. In the meantime she'd been seeing you and knows you're more interested in her than dude #2.

So until dude #2 falls on his face and she realizes he's not really into her, she will probably keep hope alive for him. I'm sure this will be soon, because if she's smart (you said she is), and he doesn't keep the momentum going (which he probably won't) you'll easily win the day vs. him.

HOWEVER, she brought up distance/moving to you. This makes me nervous. Here's why: when two people are both very interested in each other, their brains focus on what they have in common, everything 'alike' they are. If she is focusing on where you live v. where she lives - even though you are assuring her - this means her heart is divided. My advice here is to be aware and know that sometimes women say things that seem very subtle, but are actually 'everything.'

I realize you want to see her regardless of the complications. The tricky part is, they are your complications (especially the children) and they are familiar to you (i.e. not as scary, being known). But to her, they may loom very large. Giving her assurance of your desire to continue is wonderful! But these are big decisions for her and she'll need to sort out her willingness on her own.

The 'pulling back from kissing and out of the blue' cracks me up a little bit: we ladies always have things on our minds! Even when kissing - which may be pretty focused for the gent - we could have a million ideas rolling around our heads, concerns and questions that just can't wait any longer. And sometimes that intimacy brings it all to the surface.

My $.02 - guard your heart. She is very hesitant.

It's interesting that her not wanting to move to your town is what she blurted out - it tells me that she has thought about what it would be like to have a long-term relationship with you, and also that she has other reservations that she hasn't communicated to you yet. Does she mean she never wants to leave St. Louis or is there somewhere in the middle where you might be able to compromise?

How often do you have your kids? Has she talked about whether she wants to have kids of her own? If she doesn't want kids at all, how does she feel about stepchildren?

I know it might be early to talk about whether she wants to be a stepmother, but she is the one who brought up not wanting to move to your town!

tc, are you still 'talking' to other women?


That she hasn't dated much...it is good that she is seeing what is out there. I would just enjoy your dates with her without expectations...maybe something will develop but it is VERY early to start wondering about kids, etc.

Yeah for kissing!!!

No dates tonight, the roads are too bad after snowmagedon part four here in STL. So I'm just chilling with the puppy tonight. My date with KAREN will be postponed until Friday probably. We've been texting back and forth most of the evening thus far though. AMY is giving me indicators that she wants a quiet night to herself so I'm leaving her be and letting her initiate conversion.

I'm trying to guard it. It's tough... I really like her. That said, I'm being realistic and know this could end quickly. She says she makes her decisions fast and thus I can see everything changing on a dime. But she needs to make her own decision about whether she can enter into something with me. She said she takes dating at this point in her life seriously which I think means if she can't picture our lives together, then she'll end it. I'm flexible so it's not a big deal for me to uproot and do something different but not everyone is like that. Also, when I dated my ex, I had no kids and she had two so I know what position she's coming from.

We sort of talked about it. I don't think the kids are conceptually a road block; she says she doesn't mind and she's been talking to her sister about what it would like to be a step mother. I have my kids half the time and she says that me being s good dad is part of the reason she's attracted to me.

That said, I think the location thing is bigger for her. I don't know why but... I'm not anchored to where I live so it's not a biggie. A house can be rented or sold if need be.

My fingers are still crossed for Amy! I'm glad she takes dating seriously - that's a good sign. And that you understand her position is really good - I'll bet she senses your empathy.

Question: do you call Amy? I know we ladies are all different, but I really like it when a guy calls me. Especially after a smooching session, it makes me feel secure and cared for. Plus I like being flirty-texted. But that's just me.

We're sitting under 10 inches of snow here too, TC! No work today, hopefully none tomorrow. Of course, the kiddos are out of school, so they're happy.

Oh I agree! Light and easy right? I promise... I didn't bring it up but if she does, we have that conversation. And yes, I'm still talking to KAREN. I learned my lesson... as long as she's seeing other guys I will probably keep seeing others but I will be exclusive with her in a heart beat if she expresses an interest in that.

We do talk on the phone but not today. I definitely felt she was needing a day to herself so I kept texting sparse. I think I'll call her tomorrow or Thursday if she's not overly busy. And I'll give the flirty texts a whirl!

After the date, I drove her home. The car ride was more... tense. When I walked her to her door she turned around after opening it, hugged me and then kissed me! It was really, really wonderful. We agreed to see each other again and then I drove my happy butt home. [/quote]




Ooh that strikes me as a very masculine thing to do. A woman would probably wait until the exclusivity was agreed upon before getting rid of the other suitors. Not a criticism though. Since you are the one doing the wooing you would know that you can't realistically divide your efforts when you like one girl a lot more.



If it is genuinely presented cheerfully and as a pressure-free option "but I will be OK with a no" then I like it. If someone likes you a lot, what's wrong in knowing that? Even more so if the 'no' is accepted cheerfully - that makes me want to say yes! It's the man's move to say the word 'exclusive' too in my very old fashioned opinion.

I do know what you mean by fight or flight though. I did get a very pressured approach from one guy who I didn't even like, we were not even dating. He wanted me to move to London because he was! Then when I said I didn't like London he got all whiny and "but, but, but". There is a way to be confident and go for it without pressure.

Don't worry about too fast either. Dr H says if by the fifth date you've found the person there is no real need to feel pressure to keep searching. Isn't she your no5 too?!



I'd be friends to keep your hat in the ring. It does suck though.



Oh you'll be fine.



No it's natural for the man to be in pursuit. It takes longer for women to 'feel' it. The male needs are met more quickly.

I agree with this. I like it when the man pursues, brings up exclusivity, etc. It helps me solidify my feelings for him. If he is hesitant or wishy-washy, I usually feel the same way about him...strange but true.

Unfortunately for the gents, just because he pursues doesn't mean I want him. (sorry) But if I've accepted date #2, then he's got a really good shot at winning my affections. And date #3 is usually the make-or-break-it point for me.

I agree but I think in this case it is different. I'd love to bring up exclusivity however she doesn't appear ready for that. That's ok but it's a weird no-man's land I feel like I'm in sometimes. I'd rather just date her but I feel like if I do and she continues to date other men, I'm insanely vulnerable. I don't know why that is. I do know I need to talk to her about it at some point; I can't do this for more than a few weeks.

I've rescheduled by date with KAREN to this evening. I'm pretty excited about it as we've had really great conversations including last night via text. She's an absolute riot and cute as heck so that's a bonus. I'll let you kind folks know how it goes as always.

I followed up on the suggestion regarding the flirty texts to AMY this morning; told her I really liked snuggling with and kissing her; I'll be thinking of doing exactly that all day! She responded positively. I called her real quick on my way to an appointment since she said she wasn't at work yet; she didn't answer so I left her a brief voicemail wishing her a great day.

I'm glad you called her! (At least, I like it when boys call me)
Hopefully she'll call you back today "in good faith." If so, I think that's a good sign.

You said she "responded positively" to your flirty text. Do you mind telling (in general) what she said? Was it a smiley face, or a real text saying "me too" or something like that? If I'm not sure about the guy, I'll just 'wink' or send a 'you're so sweet.' If I really like him, I'll say something flirty in return (usually I raise the bar a little, to keep the conversation going). Just my $.02.

Amy is clearly my favorite (not that it matters what I think!)

But I look forward to hearing more about your date with Karen. She might be even "awesomer" than Amy in real life - you never know!

As usual, I agree with br!! lol How many dates have you been on with Amy again?

I think it's great to have support for dating, it's definitely challenging and crazy sometimes. But you can overthink and over analyze things at times and take the fun out of it. Just go with the flow and try to relax!

Sure! I sent her:

"So I have something I have to confess... I need to get it off my chest. Here it is:

I really like kissing and snuggling with you! I have this feeling that I'm going to be thinking about kissing you quite a bit today. :-)

Good morning!"

She replied back with:

":). I like kissing and snuggling with you too."

Oh, I'm having fun, trust me. I'm enjoying every minute with her. It's the times I'm not that I appreciate the opinion of others. I tend to over think things and you guys talk me down... lol. I've been on four dates with AMY so far with another tentatively scheduled for this weekend.

Well, that's fairly promising, depending upon the rest of the conversation.

I love flirty texting, it's so much fun! I hope it continues.

Here's a thought, again, just my $.02:

As a woman, I am never surprised when a man tells me he enjoys kissing and snuggling with me (SF). But if he tells me he enjoys my personality, my heart, my thoughts or my character? Then I'm smitten.

Men who are physically attracted to me are a $.10/dozen. Men who recognize other great qualities are the ones I am most attracted to. The ones who ask me what I think, or are interested in me as a person? Those are the ones who are able to capture my heart.

This is just a conversation. By no means do I think you're only telling Amy you're sexually attracted to her!

Yup, that is something to keep in mind for sure. I think I'm doing a good job of this but I'll keep at it. Definitely not just telling her that I think she's attractive!

Kissing & snuggling is Affection Zhamila, not sexual fulfilment.
just my 2 eurocent

Good point, Gerold...I guess that depends on what KIND of kissing & snuggling we're talking about!

To me, affection is saying sweet things, getting a hug, flowers, reading me a poem, etc. In fact, Dr. Harley says affection is similar to what a person gives a pet or a child. It's completely non-sexual, and in fact for many women, affection loses its charm when it becomes sexual.

But I'm sure every girl is different in how she'd like affection to be expressed.

Alright, here's the update for all those who are following. AMY did call me back about thirty minutes before I had to leave on my date with KAREN. We talked about our days and make more solid plans for Saturday morning. I wonder if she's just that busy or if she's reducing me to a less ideal billing because of the other guy. Not really worried, just an idle thought. Either way, I had a great time talking to her and told her so. Texted her after and told her I really like what a great listener she is.

In regard to KAREN, the date was phenomenal. This woman is a female version of me. The same humor, the same level of sarcasm, the same odd thought patterns, the same interests, etc. It was eerily cool and sexy to be honest. We had coffee and then went out to dinner. The date lasted about five hours and wow. Just wow. She kissed me at the end and that was amazing too. We kissed for quite a bit actually. We're seeing each other again on Friday night and I'm really excited about it. If the fireworks are the same then and AMY drops the other guy, this could get really complicated for me. What a great night regardless!

Idle thought, I felt more myself with KAREN tonight than I have with anyone in my life. With others, I'm more guarded and on my best behavior. Even with AMY; I know I'm a good guy but I have a strange sense of humor that is not always easy to get. I think I'm going to have to be this way with AMY on Saturday and see how it goes. I think this is an important thing for me... I want to be me around my SO; not a molded, socially acceptable version of me.

Agree x 100. I don't know why anyone would not want to be him/herself while dating. If a person doesn't like the real you then bye, bye.

That Karen makes you say "Wow"...

Yeah, I've had time to sleep on it a bit and feel pretty strongly about making sure I show AMY the real me quickly. I'm not doing her any favors by being on my best behavior at this point. I think the reason why I've been a bit more reserved is because I was really nervous the first, second and a bit of the third date. I like her quite a bit so I've been on my best behavior. But the reality is I'm a goofy dude with a strange sense of humor. I make inappropriate jokes, I curse at times and I'm a complete mess on the regular. So... she needs to see that so she can make an informed decision as well. She should be able to like me when I'm put together and when I'm not. We're going to chat tonight so she's going to get some of my witicisms and humor this evening in addition to Saturday. Poor girl won't know what hit her... lol

With KAREN though, there was no best behavior. She saw the real, unfiltered me immediately and really liked it because she's the same way. We have the same style humor, the same wit, the same sarcastic nature. We have similar hobbies, tastes and habits (with the exception of the Oxford comma). It was just really good. I've never had a first date like that; it's exciting. There are some down sides; she apparently smokes on occasion and our religions (or her lack of) does not match up at all. But these are not deal breakers for me so I'm really excited for tomorrow. If the second and third dates are similar to the first... Too early to say but it's looking good.

James Bond was always himself around women..

Ah but Bond was never authentic. He was the consummate spy and rarely ever showed one single bit on honest emotion. Who knows who or what Bond really felt at any given moment? He was and remains the ultimate player!

TC,

But isn't the version of your personality acting on your "Best Behavior" also the Real You, just with additional learned discipline?

Isn't everything taught by MB in actuality a newly learned respectful behavioral conditioning?

I'm not against letting your hair hang down and letting your previous core personality come forth, but which version of your persona are you striving to develop more of?

LTL

By the way, they both sound like pleasant companions, so it's too early to shed one for the sake of the other just yet, isn't it?

LTL

Interesting question. I think my "best behavior" is still me. I'm a gentleman for instance regardless of whether I'm being a goof or not. And I'm not trying to condition away my "old self" either. It's about identifying compatibility. MB allows you to BUILD compatibility but dating is where you search for it. I have no doubt I can build compatibility with just about anyone through MB techniques BUT dating is different. Why spend time and effort building something with someone that may exist with someone else naturally?

My ex found my goofy nature offensive in a lot of instances. That wasn't necessarily because I was being crass (although that was the case on occasion) but because she fundamentally didn't like my humor. She didn't find the same things funny that I did and it was a frustrating thing for me because I like to be funny and I enjoy getting laughs.

Does that answer your question?

Yes, I think you're right. But as we all know, dating is interesting and that could change at the drop of a hat this weekend depending on how these dates go. I'm keeping an open mind and trying to not make any really impulsive decisions. Based on what I know about myself, that might be a tall order.

Bingo! My feelings can swing dramatically from one date to the next! lol

Glad to hear the date went well w/Karen tho

It was formed as a question, but less for me to understand your answer rather it was more for you to be more introspective about who you really are and wish to develop into.

Bring goofy or witty does not automatically necessitate that the polite demeanor you put forth needs to vanish.

I am pretty darn glad for you that you seem to be winding up with several women who you can enjoy spending more than just quality date time with.

It seems both mentally and emotionally taxing if i were in your shoes though. Good luck on that. Whew!!!

LTL

It is both emotionally and mentally taxing. I have no idea how long I will be able to pull it off but I will give it a whirl. I'm tired... lol.

From my perspective, this is HUGE.

Being your authentic self and having it validated is a big green flag. Good for you! Good for Karen! If you're both being authentic and really dig each other, that's a great sign. It should be comfortable and fun!

If your coffee date migrated to dinner and onto kissing, this is also a very good sign. Sounds like you enjoyed each other's company so much you didn't want the date to end.

OK: I guess I've changed my vote. I'm leaning toward Karen.

Actually Austin Powers is probably more authentic than James Bond.
He gets all the women too

I will get slaughtered for this...

I know that, for a woman, affection & sexual fulfilment go hand in hand....
But if you are mistaken affection with sexual fulfilment, you have NEVER experienced SF before!

THIS IS NOT A DISRESPECTFUL JUDGEMENT!!!

When you climax, loose control of your ENTIRE body and ask yourself "WTF" happened....

You have found the difference between affection & SF.

YOU ARE NOT ALONE!

In fact, I have experienced 30yr+ women consulting their friends on the first SF in their lives...

No, I am NOT boosting my ego (what's the point anyway)

The G-spot is not a myth!

No, you will not get there by snuggling & kissing.

Just got off the phone with AMY; I asked her if we could chat earlier in the day when she got off work tonight. It was tough staying up because her last appointment didn't end until just before ten in the evening but it was totally worth it. I was my goofball self and it was a really great conversation. This is the reason I'm into AMY so much; she is so engaging, sweet and genuine. I loved every minute of that conversation and before we knew it, an hour had gone by. She laughed at my goofiness and seemed genuinely happy to talk to me. So... I wrapped up the conversation and bid her goodnight.

I'm still very much into this woman; meeting KAREN hasn't changed that. But that might change so who knows. I think she's going to make up her mind about me relatively soon based on this conversation we just had so I'm curious how it will go. I think this Saturday will be pivotal in this budding romance with Ms AMY.

Gerold, do you think you could use Dr H's categories instead of making up your own? He has said numerous times that the affection category should not contain physical gestures unless they are the type you could give equally give to a child.

Yeah, some kissing and snuggling is childlike affection, but that isn't what is being discussed here - it is physical, SF charged romance.

Z hasn't 'mistaken' affection for SF. It is you who has confused SF with sexual release. You can have a physical sexual experience, or an orgasm with anybody. The emotional need of SF is PURELY emotional and is a physical expression of love which is very different to the purely physical release of orgasm.

You have made very personal assumptions about Z just because she has listened to Dr H's distinctions of the needs and you have not.




You are talking about the PHYSICAL release of orgasm, which is very easy to find. We've all experienced it - you aren't talking to teenagers.

Do you think you could get better acquainted with the SF need and stop confusing it with orgasm?




Yes, I have met women like this too. Not sure what that has to do with anything. If you spend your twenties being a man-pleaser, it's what happens. It's no big deal, they eventually figure it out.



Who on earth said it was?

It is possible for a woman to know both her body and Dr H's categories correctly.

I think you're doing great, tc

Thanks indie. I feel like I dorked up something yesterday afternoon though. AMY called me while I was on my way to pick up KAREN to make plans and during the conversation I was evasive about what I was doing that evening. I feel dishonest. I can justify it how I want but the short version is I haven't discussed with her my current dating situation and I need to. I will be straight forward and non-evasive. Open and honest. I see her this morning so that will be a topic of conversation.

I'm really disappointed in myself.

I think you are being too hard on yourself. The feeling you're having is simply a realisation that you need to level with her. Which you will do as soon as you have an opportunity.

Not telling her about your specific plans with someone else, is OK I think. When people are dating multiple people, all you need to know is the exclusive/non exclusive status. I know when my friend was juggling a few dates, the last thing she wanted to hear about was specificaly which other girls they were dating. In fact she considered their discussing any specifics as kind of tactless.

I know I've heard Dr Harley and Joyce say that they never mentioned the 'others' to each other while dating!

Thanks, I needed to hear that. The whole open and honest thing is a big deal because my marriage fundamentally lacked honesty on both sides for such a long time. Feeling dishonest even if there is no merit to it is uncomfortable because I worked hard to be open and honest for many years both during and after. But still... you're right. I'll talk to her and see how it goes. I don't plan on going into detail, just that I was out with someone else last night and a frank discussion about our current dating statuses.

Yes but there is a huge difference in being O&H with a marital partner. You are 'one flesh' and share legal responsibilies and financial property. So you have to think and move as one with no holding back.

I am a very O&H person as it's my top need and I need it to feel close to others. But there is no way my friends know my every move, thought and intention.

I am O&H with my boyfriend; not cause I think I have to be but because it is fairly easy as we've grown closer. I would have struggled to be so before we were exclusive, because it isn't as close a relationship.

After the date last night with KAREN and the date with AMY this morning, I've come to the point where I want to date AMY exclusively. I like KAREN. That's not the issue... I want AMY. With that realization, I cannot keep seeing anyone else. So, in the middle of kissing her, I stopped, told AMY that she is free to date who she wants but that I felt like I couldn't date multiple people anymore and that I would only date her going forward. She smiled, said, "thank you for telling me," and we went back to kissing.

I will say that I feel vulnerable and a bit like I'm on a cliff here but I'm going for this. If she doesn't reciprocate, I will have tried and followed my heart. Alright, enough of the sappy stuff. I'm sure there will be plenty of comments on my latest decision.

Did you tell Karen?

I will tomorrow. She's going out with her girl friends tonight and I don't want to potentially ruin her evening.

Kissing is great, in fact I'm sure it's amazing! But make sure that you are using your head and evaluating her heart, character, and actions.

I married a very pretty girl, with lips like my bothers couch (extra credit if you can place that line in a movie) who could rock my world with little effort, but in the end, she was a renter, and it seriously hurt.

Just looking out for you my friend!

I know ak1 and I appreciate the concern buddy! I think that's the difference between the two. I had a great time kissing both. They're both great people. With AMY I admire her morals, her caring nature, her ability to listen, her empathy and her character. She truly is a beautiful person. Don't get me wrong, I'm going to pursue her with both eyes open. It's not about the kissing although it's damn good.

It's exciting you like her so much and you sound level headed about the whole thing. If the other people you are seeing are kind of fading in comparison then it's better not to waste their time.

It will probably be some time before you see how she approaches PoJA or gives anything away about her relationship attitude. No reason not to go along with things until you do see some of that though.

What's your approach going to be while she is dating others but you aren't? Are you going in full throttle or will you step back a little?

My boyfriend told me early on he wanted to be exclusive and not date others even if I wanted to. So I was kind of on the other side of the same situation.

He later told me that if I had opted to carry on multi-dating he would probably have had to scale back contact to 'friend level'. He said that would have been calling/texting me like once a week rather than every day.

He said that would have enabled him to protect his own feelings a bit while giving me space as I did my own thing.

I don't know honestly. Just by what I've seen, the pursuit has been what has gotten us close so far. She says she really likes me and that I make her smile so often. But I am leaving myself vulnerable to not getting picked; to her choosing someone else. That will only become more difficult and more heartbreaking as time passes.

I think I'm going to keep pursuing her full throttle and see how it goes. Go big or go home. Or crash and burn horribly.

How long did you continue to date others before you chose?

Well scratch that, AMY just called to say that she felt compelled to date the other guy exclusively. Sigh... alright.

Good thibg that you didn't run off Karen ....

True. I hadn't ended it with KAREN yet although I had intended to talk to her about it tonight. So... I have a date with her tomorrow night. I'll shake off the AMY thing tonight and I'll be ready to have a good time tomorrow with KAREN. Things change quick in the dating world!

I'm just going to take it as a serendipitous phone call; I was obviously about to make a mistake and my declaration of exclusivity yesterday was enough for AMY to make up her mind. Fair enough, I'm glad she told me.

sorry TC. That's tough.

Thanks Z, I appreciate it. It'll be alright... it happened this way for a reason. I did tell her to keep my number in case it didn't work out with Mr Wonderful so I could theoretically hear from her again. I'm not holding my breath though. Rather, back to dating and more specifically, back to dating KAREN who is incredibly excited to see me tomorrow and thinks I'm amazing.

Oh....I wouldn't tell her to keep my number....
thats too much of an outreach

Already a done deal my friend; I told her that at the end of our phone call. I doubt it'll ever be an issue though.

Now THAT is great! Plus, I hear she's a great kisser (wink).

You know, as dating goes, I would not be surprised if you heard from Amy again. I have heard from every single guy I've dated (i.e. went out with 2+ times) this past year, even if it was just a 'hey, how are you doing?" friendly thing. It's no big deal if you've met someone new - but it's harder if you're not seeing anyone at that time and feeling vulnerable.

I'm impressed with your 'dating turnaround.' Maybe it's because I'm a girl, but I have a hard time getting over someone I really liked, and everyone else pales in comparison for while. It would be nice if I could bounce back more quickly, but I guess hearts don't necessarily follow a perfect timeline.

Anyway, have fun this week!

She is indeed a great kisser! Big plus.

I wouldn't be surprised to hear from her as well at some point, possibly in the next few months. She makes her decisions on people fast so if this guy doesn't wow her, she'll be back in the dating pool pretty quickly. Or maybe he'll be the one for her and if that's the case, I wish her all the best.

My "dating turnaround" is very much a "fake it 'til you make it" type of deal. I've had to restrain myself from texting AMY at least eight or nine times this morning. Feeling pretty melancholy. But I had the same issue with SUSAN a few weeks ago and within a week everything was OK. Not great, but OK. Going out with KAREN will help; I'm genuinely into her so I have a feeling my funk won't last long.

Thanks for the encouragement! I hope your hiatus from the dating world goes well!

I hope dating Karen helps! Keep us posted, k?

Every day that I don't hear from my latest guy, is harder. I don't understand why, but I'm hoping the pain subsides soon. The hiatus will be good for me, I hope. (Ok, done with thread-jack)

Dating KAREN does indeed help. I had a really great time. We went out to dinner in St Louis and then went for a round of bowling where she thoroughly whipped my rear. In between everything, we made it like teenagers. It was a great night. I'm not saying, "AMY who?," yet but I feel pretty good right now.

NC is the way to go with that guy Z. You don't really want him to contact you anyway... that would put you right back at ground zero. I understand what you mean though. I stopped counting the number of times I thought about texting AMY at fifteen. I feel kind of neurotic about it. It'll be ok. Just keep telling yourself that you're better off without his issues (you are) and get in the gym if you haven't already. Release those exercise endorphins!

Thanks TC. Good advice. I'm actually headed to the gym tomorrow, and was there Saturday.

Hooray for a great Karen date! Awesome....

I have another date with KAREN tomorrow night; she's coming over to my place to watch Walking Dead and have pizza. I'm pretty excited about seeing her again!

So I've thought about KAREN quite a bit last evening and this morning. Beyond being a good kisser, she is an excellent recreational companion. Bowling and dinner were tons of fun. Throughout she was constantly touching and/or kissing me. She's very affectionate which is a top three need for me. We talked about our preferences in books, food and quite a few other things. We're highly compatible in quite a few regards which I appreciate in large part because I haven't found that yet in a date. She's beautiful, fun, witty and goofy. I'm really enjoying my time with her.

On the negative, she is an occasional smoker when she's stressed. Additionally she is spiritual but not religious so she doesn't share my faith, such as it is. Neither of these are deal breakers. She's also pretty snarky but at this point I find that funny and sexy. So... yeah! All is well so far.

In kid news, my 10 and 8 year old are home sick, projectile vomiting. Hopefully they feel better soon and I don't get sick before my date tomorrow!

What an intriguing topic... I don't think I've read an entire thread on this site in years, but now I have.

Although a little older than you, tcc, I could have written much of what you have from my own online dating experiences. I think it's a process that many of us guys go through (although I found OKCupid a little too sexually charged for my tastes after a couple dates). I've had my own Susan's, Amy's and Karen's over the last 8 years, much as you have described.

Anyway... my own thoughts could fill a thread this size on their own, but a couple things...

Forget Amy. I mean even as FriendZone. Friendzone will lead to more at her whims, and her whims only. You may fill 80% of her wants and needs, but the Amy's will ALWAYS be looking for 81%, even when they aren't looking. And you may wind up throwing someone truly compatible by the wayside when she comes back into your life for a few weeks until Mr. 81% appears. If AGG were reading this (and remembers), we could call her AgentJulie.

Smoking is a big deal... there are women just as compatible as the Karen's out there who don't smoke. If things progress, are you going to let her stink up your house or ask a woman you care about to step outside to stink up the mouth you so enjoy kissing?

Don't forget to listen to your gut. My greatest mistake in online dating (Not Julie; a couple years later) was made by not just ignoring my gut, but actively shouting it down to pursue an infatuation that I knew would go nowhere. Luckily, the gut looked out for me and sabotaged things pretty early.

As a positive, that greatest mistake gave a much-needed re-tune to my dating radar. I was therefore able to recognize someone far more compatible than the nightmare but still just not right a couple months later... in favor of the woman I will marry this coming June. Found her on Chemistry and almost deleted her too early.

Finally, here is something I saved from an email a couple years after my own Susan and I friend-zoned each other (never dated; never really wanted to). She had found hers, and I was in the above quandary, figuring out who I wanted between Ms. Almost-perfect (but something not-quite-right), and Ms. I just met you, but we're pretty compatible and you're funny as hell (my now-fiance):


I was sitting at dinner with Ms. Not-Quite-Right when my phone went off with that message. I thought about it and broke things off with her the next day. Haven't regretted it one bit in the years since. Just make sure it is Joy and not the initial infatuation of a new relationship.

Good luck with everything... I'll continue to read and hope you find everything you are searching for.

While neither may be deal breakers for you, you will have to decide how much those things bother you? My bf is an occasional (social) smoker....never in a house or car. While I prefer no smoking, it is not a deal breaker and it does not bother me much either. If you are a church go-er and Karen is not...I think that would be a bigger issue...especially with children

Since you are still casually dating, have fun and enjoy it for what it is.

Church and religion is a common area that Dr Harley mentions on his radio show and in his book Buyers Renters Freeloaders

All - I am not an avid church go-er. I have faith and I am a Christian. While that commonality was something that attracted me to AMY, I think my less structured and regimented take on it was a turn-off for her. With KAREN, I don't mind this disparity at this point because she respects my point of view and I respect hers. If it goes further than casual dating, a more in depth discussion will probably be had.

black_raven - That is exactly how I feel. I'd prefer if she didn't smoke but from what she's told me, it's hardly at all. If that's the case, I don't mind it per say. Right now we're both on our best behavior so... who knows what that will look like in a few months.

Who_Dat - Thank you for taking the time to write all that. The commonalities in dating are pretty dang interesting! Quite a bit of what you wrote rang true for me and I'll take your advice on AMY. I think you're right.

One thing to consider about a smoker is that they typically have long term health problems, like drinkers.
My grandfather died of emphysema, my father had a massive heart attack. Myneighbor across the street had lung cancer .

Falling in love with a woman that is choosing to poison her body and eventually die of one of these diseases can be heartbreaking years from now

Agreed and it's definitely something I will consider (and talk to her about) if things appear to be moving toward relationship mode.

Something to think about: Now is the time in the relationship when people are on their best behaviors.

My date with KAREN was pretty awesome last night. She came over to my place and we ordered pizza, made out, talked and eventually watched The Walking Dead. It was pretty great. I think the only issue we have is we need to tone down the sexual stuff and concentrate on the personal interactions more. It's not that we're having sex, just that the make out sessions are hot and heavy. It's nice to have that level of attraction but we both need to wait on that aspect so we need to cool our jets a bit. We've chatted on and off today about all kinds of things such as why our previous relationships have failed to our stances on kids. She validated my concerns on that without necessarily agreeing which I appreciate. So yeah, all in all its been a good couple of days and things are progressing nicely.

I'm not religious but I was up for dating a Christian when I was out there. Probably not the other religions though as I celebrate C holidays in my own pagan way which may not mesh with other holidays. Probably would not have dated avid church goers either unless I happened to try it and take to it. If your morals and activities match up I think it works.

The chapter on values in Bs, Rs and FL's tackles it well. Essentially if you engage in things or approve of things the other person finds offensive, it won't work.

I know a couple, one is muslim and one is spiritual but non religious. Neither has ever regularly attended places of worship. He gave up drinking very easily and she likes to celebrate Christmas because she has always done with her own family. He likes the celebration of Eid and has joined her in fasting during Ramadan. He likes the sense of community.

I could never fast, so no muslims for me

indiegirl, thank you for your insight and post. I am Wiccan, spiritual but not religious, believe in God, and wondered how to incorporate this into my dating life.....when to introduce/discuss. I celebrate all the Christian holidays.

Have you read Buyers Renters freeloaders?
Dr Harley would encourage you to find someone of the same religion.

I would most certainly recommend that book to anyone who is currently dating. The five tests of compatibility are Values, Energy, Intelligence, Social Interest and Cultural Background. Religion (or lack of) is tackled under values. You need to indeed make sure your morals, behaviours and lifestyle will never pose a conflict. It's no good assuming that the feelings will counter-act the problem.

There's some initial reading here: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5068b_qa.html

However reading the whole book is a very good idea.



My finding has been that people who follow a structured and organised religion are very keen to bring this up very early on. They want to find someone of the same religion generally.

Someone who is a bit more unorthodox will similarly raise values early on, but it will be more of a generalised discussion.

Here and please listen to the clips.
Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders

It's been almost two weeks since I last posted so I thought I would update this. KAREN and I are still going strong so to speak. It's been about three weeks and we've seen each other about a dozen times in those three weeks. We've each pulled our repsective dating profiles down and are seeing each other exclusively.

This last weekend hung out from Friday evening through Sunday evening. It was a really great 48 hours. We spent most of Friday night talking, watched a bit of Walking Dead and other adult activities up to and including SF. I'm just being honest here and fully expect to get my rear handed to me here by some for engaging in sex at this point in our relationship (let alone before marriage). It is a choice we made and I welcome all comments/questions/concerns. Saturday we hiked, cooked and went out to a birthday celebration for one of her friends. Sunday was a lazy day of more talking, hanging out and once again, adult activities. We shared quite a bit about our relationship philosophies, how we view relationships and what we want in the future. I can say we are incredibly compatible thus far and I'm really enjoying spending time with her. I was not ready to "be alone" at any point this weekend; the infatuation stage is pretty dang nice.

I introduced several MB concepts to her this weekend including POJA (which we exercised a bit on our outing to her friend's birthday) and UA. She had different names for these concepts (her version of compromise is exactly like POJA for example) but the ideas were virtually identical. All in all, I'm very optimistic and am in a pretty good place right now. I did tell her that I will not be introducing her to the kiddos for a while which she is perfectly OK with. So yeah... I'm a happy guy!

Thank you all for your input and links. I will take it all to heart and apply.

tccoastguard.....AMY who??? (in reference to an earlier post where you stated you weren't quite ready to say that) I'm very happy for you and wish you both ALL the best.

I was just coming into this thread to ask about Karen and well...there it is!! LOL

Glad things are pretty dang nice!

The best advice

don't move in with each other unless you marry and do it after the wedding.

: )

I will just say think for tomorrow.

Radio Clip on Dating

TC, is Karen still in the picture?

She is indeed! It's been a busy two and a half months(ish). Since the last time I posted on this thread, we've spent quite a large portion of our off time with each other. We waited until the two month mark before I introduced her to the kiddos. While I'm glad I did, I will say any reservations I had didn't materialize because the kids like her, she likes the kids and we're all having a good time together doing things.

She has remained authentically KAREN throughout the last two months which is nice to see. She is extremely open and honest which is something that I greatly appreciate. She's fun to be around, she's kind to the kids and is a great activity partner. I love spending time with her and my love bank is quite full! I will say though that we have had a few challenges that have caused a moment of quiet or two.

At one point, she told me that while I treat her like a queen while my kids aren't with us, when I have them I tend to treat her the same as them in regard to tone of voice, more authoritarian, etc. I acknowledged that this is true; my exww said the same thing. We talked about it in brief but I know we need to have a longer conversation about it. I don't want this to be an issue.

Another sticky point is she has a tendency to get moody on occasion, most of the time at the drop of the hat. I normally don't know why at the time and we're working on communicating during these periods. She says that I'm fantastic at this so it's nice to be validated in that regard. The last major challenge that I can see is that I'm in the middle of my last class for my BA that I've been working on for the last seven years so I'm up to my eyeballs in work, school work, kids, house and girlfriend. It's hard budgeting time but it's something we're talking about and making sure we get as much as we possibly can; at least 20 hours each week.

The short of it is we're still doing really well and I absolutely love her. It's nice to be in a relationship where your partner is just as into being with you as you are with them. We're talking about MB principles in abstract and trying to apply them when we can. Heck, we're even planning a vacation with the kiddos down to Orlando in June. Good times. :-)

Hi TC, thanks for the update, I'm hoping things are still going great. Nothing like open and honest!

How did your conversation go about how you speak to her with the children there?

What's going on Travis?