I started seeing a very nice lady late last year (met on eHarmony) and things seemed to going pretty good. Yesterday it appeared that we broke up before I left for home.

It is an LDR which in itself can be tough but I work out of my home and can take my computer to her place and she is a stay-at-home mom that home schools so she can visit me. So we do visits with her and her son sleeping in one room and me in another.

The problem I kept seeing with the relationship is in the link below. We would be together, everything seemed to be fine, and then out of the blue, she would not talk to me. She would sometimes go to her room and close the door, or just curl up in a chair and not say a word.

I just returned from a visit and experienced the above behavior several times. I try talking with her when it happens but I just don't seem to get answers. She is extremely introverted (which is fine) but I sometimes wonder if she has trouble getting close to people. She truly has absolutely no friends and is not close to anyone in her family (including her parents). Her life is just her and her son.

I asked her once a while back (in just a general conversation) if she has ever seen a therapist on anything. (I was very upfront in that I have gone to a therapist when things bother me). Anyway, her response was she doesn't like therapists because he parents kept sending her to them when she was young. She did not elaborate why they sent her and I wish I would have asked.

Yesterday before I left she was very quiet again. So I felt we had to try to talk (again) and I approached her on it. She finally told me she was wondering how long we could keep the LDR up as neither one of us are ready to relocate yet (I won't relocate because I want to near my children). I told her I have thought about the same thing with the LDR and how long we could keep it up. The conversation went downhill quickly after that and she told me in anger to just go home. So I packed up, and as I was leaving, she came out crying. At this point, I felt terrible. We talked some more and both felt I should leave as our emotions were very raw.

Anyway, this all sucks. Maybe the relationship just ran its course.

Sorry for the rambling post. I thought she was the one....

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2811591#Post2811591

Sorry to hear things didn't turn out. Hope you're doing ok.

Did she ever get an evaluation from a clinical psychologist?

Sorry BHINWI. Long distance relationships are difficult and probably aren't that successful due to not being able to maintain 15 hours of UA a week. I know it's still hurts and sorry for that.

These two things conflict.

It sounds like she was ready for more of a commitment from you that you were unwilling to give.

KeepLearning,

Thanks for listening. It will take some time but I will be ok. I just need to work through this.

We agreed to talk today and I am going to call her later. I am going to be very candid with her on the mood swings and ask her some tough questions. During a previous visit, she told me that she is very emotional and it affects her mood. She also told me once that her mood swings ended a relationship years ago. (She said her BF could not handle it.)

No evaluation from a clinical psychologist that I know of. But I may bring that up today when we talk.

It also could just be that things weren't working for her in our relationship. She could have been questioning things internally and it comes out with her change in mood. I know the LDR situation was much harder than either of us imagined. Also, I really noticed yesterday when she was asking about where things were going, it was almost as she wanted ME to break it off so the burden would be on my shoulders.

It really stinks though. She is very sweet, kind and so pretty. I just with things were different with all of this.

Relationships can be so complicated at times.....

You also sound pretty disrespectful.

Prisca,

I should have added that we talked about the relocation issue up front months ago before we physically met. The agreement was that she would move here if things worked out.

I also let her know that when my son graduates from high school, then I will be more free to move when he goes to college.

In what way?

What a way to woo her!
You should just move on if you are going to treat her with such disrespect and demands that she get help.

Do you have the book Lovebusters? I suggest you get it and read it -- I suspect your lovebusting behavior has played a role in the demise of this relationship. Also check out Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders.

Prisca,

You are right. I should not bring up a clinical psychologist. That would be extremely insulting and I would be upset if someone suggested that to me. Thanks for pointing that out.

We agreed to talk today though. I don't want to beat a dead horse and drag things out but what do I say to her? An example of her mood swings was during the last visit, we would spend an hour alone together in the mornings while her son slept. It was very loving and caring and an hour later, she is curled up in a chair and won't talk to me. (And this has happened several times). How do I get her to talk to me about that? Or do I even try?

I am lost on all of this so I welcome advice.

Hi Prisca, in case you hadn't read BHINWI's earlier thread (linked above), Dr. Harley recommended that she should be seen either by a clinical psychologist or neurologist, here. The tricky part is how BHINWI should translate Dr. Harley's recommendation to her in a respectful way.

"Mood swings" are normal (especially for a woman, and even more especially for an introverted woman!) and not a psychological problem.

If you cannot accept that there will be times of silence, then she is not the one for you.

If you would like to continue a relationship with this woman, I suggest you stop all analytical behavior and trying to make her something she is not. I also suggest you make more of a commitment to her -- you've been dating for a year now, and it sounds like she is ready for more. She's upset because she doesn't see where this relationship is going, and she's even more upset because YOU don't see where it is going. She needs more of a commitment -- along the lines of it leading to marriage -- or there is no point in continuing the relationship.

Prisca,

I have to defend myself on that comment. I have always been very kind and respectful to her and I KNOW she would tell you the same. We spend lots of time together during our visits, I buy things for her, compliment her, hold doors, etc. She also said she loves how I treat her son. During my last visit, I brought a bunch of tools and fixed everything in her house that was broken. I even climbed up on the roof and replaced shingles. I do those things because I care about her and I want to be a good partner.

I was wrong on the psychologist comment so thanks for correcting me. We are going to talk today. What do you suggest?

He can't. There is simply no respectful way for HIM to do that.

All that's great, but all it takes is one disrespectful comment or action to destroy all those lovebank deposits. Have you read Lovebusters?

Prisca - Saw your last post. Also take a look at what Dr. Harley recommends.

BHINWI, I agree with Prisca that bringing up Dr. Harley's recommendation is likely to backfire. Still, think about his final statement,

It's hard to know what to do here.

I see Dr. Harley's recommendation. The problem is, you do not KNOW that she has a problem. All you know is that she has mood swings, which seem somewhat odd to you. She may have a problem, or she may not. If all you were to read was what you posted in this thread alone, she sounds quite normal.

You cannot tell her to get help. It would be disrespectful and demanding and very likely would not go over well. Dr. Harley could tell her to get help. Or one of us, if she were here posting. But you cannot.

You can let her know that these silences bother you. You could ask her if she were willing to do anything about them.

If her answer is no, then move on.

Prisca,
I am sorry but it seems that I have struck a nerve with you. I am truly trying to do my best in this situation.

I know what mood swings are. We all have them. But if you read my earlier posts her mood swings are beyond anything I have seen. She has ended up in the fetal position on my couch during one and would not talk to me or her son (I made him dinner that night because she wasn't even talking to him and he is just 10 years old).

I know it isn't my job to fix her and perhaps she doesn't need fixing. I just want to know what is going on when I find her sitting in a room and not talking to me when minutes before we are kissing on her couch. She tells me she is emotional (and that is fine) but at what point is it her emotions or something else?

I will ask her today about how she feels about our relationship in general. But she has to know that when she is happy one minute, and not talking to me the next, it is placing a lot of strain and uncertainty on me.

I have not read Lovebusters but I did read His Needs Her Needs a while back. It was a good book.

When you described your conversation of a couple days ago, you said both of you were wondering the same thing - how long could you keep up the LDR - and the conversation "went downhill quickly after that."

How about steering today's conversation towards that subject, but try to address the topic objectively. Ask yourselves honestly, how long are YOU willing to continue the LDR? How long is she?

If you reach a point where you both agree to try keeping the relationship going long enough for one or both of you to relocate, then at that point, you can bring up the mood swings. You could say that given the fact that her mood swings ended a previous relationship, you want to understand her emotions better so the same thing won't happen again.

If you can get conversation going along those lines, you might ask her if she'd be willing to go to couples counseling to help both of you understand her emotions. That sounds better than suggesting she see a clinical psychologist.

You have not struck a nerve with me. I'm trying to help you.

I have no doubt you are trying to do your best.

I really think you would do well to read Lovebusters. If not for this relationship, then for future ones.

Even if you move on and find another woman, you will find that she will do things that you find odd. She may not want to talk about it. You cannot force her.

Like I said before, you can tell her that this behavior bothers you. You can ask her if she is willing to do anything about it. That's just about it.

If she's not, I certainly wouldn't continue a relationship with her. It will only continue to bother you, even if she doesn't have a problem, and you would be continually put in a situation where you would feel the need to make a judgement or demand.

I wouldn't talk about relocating if the mood swings bother you this much. I would be upfront and gently tell her that they bother you. Ask her if she is willing to do anything about it.

If yes, great.

If not, move on.

Do you see the difference between saying "This bothers me, are you willing to do something about it?" and saying "Have you seen a psychologist? Because I think you need to see one."

It's a subtle difference, but there is one. Can you see it?

OK, I appreciate all of the advice. I would have handled the phone call completely the wrong way had I not gotten input here.

How does this sound?

1. I bring up the LDR. Ask how she feels about it? Can we keep doing it for another year? I find the LDR hard but I can deal with it if we can address item 3 below.

2. I ask what I can do (since that is all I control) to be a better partner for her. (I am sure anything she requests will not be unreasonable).

3. If we get to this point, I let her know that her mood swings place a big strain on the relationship. And that is truly the only problem I have with her personally. If we can't get past that, we break it off.

Does the above sound ok?


KeepLearning - The conversation went downhill quickly on the LDR when she asked me what I thought about it. I told her honestly that it was harder than I expected. She then asked what we should do about it, I said "I don't know". <- That was the wrong answer but I wasn't prepared for the question. That is when it started spiraling downhill.

Yes - there is a big difference. The first question is a very caring approach and the 2nd is insulting and controlling.

How are you going to say this point?

I guess Prisca's point is, if she's not willing to do anything about something that bothers you, then that gives a definitive answer as to whether you should continue the relationship.

I was looking at it the other way; if you can't agree to keep the relationship going long enough til relocation is possible, then what's the point of trying to understand her mood swings.

I like Prisca's example of the difference in the two ways you can address her mood swings. It may be a subtle difference, but I think it's a very important one.

Good luck with your conversation. Let us know how things turn out.

This is very important. Probably the most important. Post here exactly what you plan to say, word for word.

Yes, and I like point 2 because it shows you really care about her and the relationship. If you get to point 3, her answer will tell you how much she cares about you.

I agree. This is definitely the crux of your conversation, and you should think carefully about how to have it. Especially if you have it on a phone, since there's no way to get facial expression feedback.

Yes. There is no point in continuing a relationship with someone who will not do anything about something that bothers you.

Why even contemplate relocating if she is not willing to do something about what bothers him? He can find out today, very quickly, if she is willing. He doesn't have to try to understand her mood swings, he just needs to know if she is willing to do something about them. A simple yes or no.

I agree. I think point #3 should be the #1 point. Because if she isn't willing to do something about it then there's no reason to worry about relocating.

It's all in how you phrase it.

OK, the clock is ticking to my phone call this afternoon. (She may not even answer as it may be over anyway).

No relocation talk first.

I will ask her first what needs I am not fulfilling for her. I need to listen carefully to what she has to say.

I then bring up the mood swings. I need to be specific and not just say, "You are moody". Finding her curled up in the fetal position, kissing me one minute and not talking to me the next all concerns me. I will ask if she is willing to talk to me more about that?

I was simply offering another way of looking at things.

If she IS willing to do something about her mood swings, it most likely will involve the two of them, and it could possibly take a lot of effort/time to understand what's going on.

If they have a conversation about the long-distance nature of their relationship and one or both of them decide they don't want to continue, then that could be a simple yes or no as well.

BHINWI is in a difficult position, and I think multiple options can help him think through a solution.

I wouldn't even use the words "moody" or "mood swings." They can be very loaded.

Use the phrase "It bothers me." Stick to very simple and specific. "It bothers me when I find you curled up in the fetal position, or when we are kissing one minute but then you won't talk to me the next. Are these things you are willing to do anything about?"

Good luck! Hope it goes well.

Everyone,

First of all thank you!!! I would have approached this phone call much differently without your input. It made all the difference on the outcome.

Here is how it went:

She felt that we did not break up, but had our first fight. She wants to continue with the relationship.

After talking about "our" moods (mine included) we came to the conclusion that we focus too much on each other's and then feel responsible to "fix" the other person's mood (I was surprised that she felt that way about me also.) She reiterated that when she is in a mood, depending on the situation, she takes it hard, works through it and moves on. She said that is just the way she is. I guess I need to realize she senses my "moods" also.

She noticed I was quiet at times at her place (hence my "mood") and I told her why. I missed my son terribly. He is on vacation with his mom and I have never been away from him that long. She thought I was unhappy with her.

I told her when we had the LDR discussion, I thought she was trying to get me to the dirty work of breaking up. She said that was not the case at all. That is why the discussion soured so quickly because I said I would leave if that is what she wanted (and it is not what she wanted or me).

We also discussed our visits. It is sometimes tough when we "move" in the other persons place while trying to get to know them. The host feels like they have to please the guest all of the time. If we continue this relationship (which she wants and me also), we may make the visits shorter in duration.

Lastly I learned something today from the posts I read here. I initially was approaching this problem as someone that I absolutely do not want to be and that is controlling. She as well as me, has every right to be "moody". I have no right to tell her how to feel.

We decided we are going to keep talking on the phone and decide if there will be another visit down the road.

Am ordering more Harley books tonight.

Thanks again everyone.

Awesome!! I'm happy things worked out well for both you and her. Sounds like you had a good conversation.

A book I recently started is He Wins, She Wins. I'm enjoying it a lot and recommend it.

BTW, the title of your thread is now out-of-date

Another good book while dating is: Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders

Have you read it? Have you introduced your GF to MB yet?

Have not read either of the above but I will certainly start reading more on relationships. I did read "No More Mr. Nice Guy" a while back and I really liked it. I know the title sounds awful but it is not representative of the content.

I second that. In fact, if you order more than one book, BR&F is the first one I'd recommend reading.

In addition to Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders, I still suggest Lovebusters. I think you both could benefit from it. Your goal should be to be able to handle conflicts like this without fighting.

That's great but what about her mental health?
Dr. Harley told you her issues may be a red flag.
How will you address that?

Jedi,

At this point, I do nothing. I have to trust what she says in that she is very sensitive and emotional and see if I can adjust to it.

I just ordered Love Busters. I can control my behavior and not hers.

If it continues to be a problem for me, I will need to make a decision at that point. I won't ask her to marry me until we both are sure this is right.

Thanks for your concern. It really is tough to know what to do but at this point, I feel I am making the right choice.

Have you introduced your GF to MB?

No I haven't. Maybe after I read Love Busters I will tell her about it.

I just want to suggest that dating is a job interview for marriage. You haven't bought the car yet. If you test drove the car and heard a loud knocking coming from the engine, would your response be to ignore it by saying "we focus too much on engine noises and then feel responsible to "fix" the problems." I think you would not be buying the car unless the knocking noise proved to be non-fatal. Ignoring it would not help you determine that.

BHINWI, it sounds like the problem has been swept under the rug and not been resolved. I am a moody person but I am not curled up on the couch in a fetal position in a state of catatonic shock. Saying that "I am just like that" does not solve the problem. I know I would be extremely alarmed if my date curled up on the couch and wouldn't speak to me.

I see this as a huge glaring red flag that is being ignored.

Do you know that Dr Harley recommends talking to a prospective candidate's former spouses/boyfriends to get their perspectives? I think that would be a great idea in your situation. You are likely to find out that there is much wrong with this woman.

I think you know you have a huge problem here and if you married this woman, it would be a nightmare. After all, you are in a LDR and you are seeing problems like this already! What is she like 24/7? I shudder to think.

Sir,

You are ignoring Dr. Harley's advice.
he took time to personally post on your thread and recommend that she be seen by a psychologist.
If a national marriage expert tells you there is a red flag, you need to ask yourself if it is wise to ignore her behavior out of concern for being disrespectful.

Did you ask her if she is willing to do anything about it?

Melody/Jedi - I know the time she was curled up on the couch and would not talk to me was a red flag. She told me after that based on a conversation we had, she thought I had feelings for my x-wife and it hit her very hard. (I definitely don't have feelings for my X.) That was the most severe episode. Other times, she gets very quiet and a barely will say a word to me and then she will be fine a few hours later.

Other than the "moods" (which I agree, may be a deal breaker in this relationship), everything else about her is wonderful. She is honest, a wonderful mom and not clingy at all. And most of the time she is very happy and seems content with her life.

I am rambling a little here in this post but also, maybe things aren't working out between us and we just don't know it. He moods (and as she pointed out MY moods) may be an indication that we are not compatible? I felt very homesick during my last visit because I am a homebody and I really missed my son. But I also know when she is in a mood, it really is uncomfortable which made me more homesick.

Prisca pointed out some things about myself in this thread that I need to address also. I can't control her, (nor should I try even if I mean to help her). I am currently reading Love Busters based on Prisca's advice. And I found some other books yesterday on relationships that I am going to download also. I haven't been in a serious relationship in nearly 8 years so I need to see if I am part of the problem here.

For example, I grew up with alcoholic parents. There was absolutely no stability in my childhood at times and it was chaotic at best. I am certainly not an alcoholic and live a very good life with two wonderful children, a beautiful home and a great career. But what affect did my childhood have on me? I know for a fact it made me very insecure early on in my life. And I think that insecurity is something my X picked up in me during our marriage. After my divorce, I spent a lot of time with a great therapist to help me gain confidence in life. (But I still think deep inside, I have confidence issues with relationships. Not sure...)

My point being, I need to really look at myself some here also and not just point the finger at her.

I do appreciate Dr. Harley's advice and value it. And I definitely won't buy the car if the engine is knocking....

Prisca - We talked about not feeding off of each other's "moods". She says she can pick up when I am in a mood also and then it affects her mood and vice-versa. I suggested we talk about our feelings when that happens.

I am reading Love Busters now and am really enjoying it. Dr. Harley mentions in it that when he talks to couples in trouble, he will get two totally different stories from each person. Right now, everyone is only getting "my" perspective.

What about contacting her Ex?

At this point, I do believe that would kill the relationship as things are somewhat still raw from my last visit. We are trying to sort some things out and I feel contacting her X would be too intrusive at this point. Down the road, if things smooth out, of course I would be up for that and I would have no problem with her talking to mine either.

We had a LONG talk today and some interesting things came up. She told me how much she admired my core values. She feels I am honest, faithful, kind and a hard worker. I feel exactly the same about her. But we have other differences that we were both trying to accommodate for each other. For example, she is normally vegen and I love a good steak. So I would eat vegen around her. She said she actually changed her eating habits around me and ate poultry. We both came to the conclusion that this is nonsense because I really don't care if she is vegen and she doesn't care if I eat steak.

We then started going down the list of things we were doing impress or please the other and it came down to neither one of use cared about any of it. We both want someone that is kind, faithful and honest. And of course we do have other things in common as we both love the outdoors and are very active. We also both love kids and talk about hers and mine all of the time.

So we decided we really need to open up and get to know each other and quit trying to be something we are not. I told her I will tell her all my imperfections but she needs to be ready because it is a pretty long list.

We have a ways to go to get this on the right track. But I do admire her honesty with me on this.

Sir, you can save thousands in therapy fees by just attending AlAnon Adult Children of Alcoholic meetings. They are free

Yes. Dr. Harley got your perspective and told you to make sure she is psychologically healthy prior to marriage.

BHINWI, what should we call you? Nowadays we kind of pair off right away, and stay in relationships, even when we have reservations, until the reservations become so big we give up. This is the price that comes with pairing off so soon, overly invested when there may be many others who would not need to relocate to be with you and not have this mood-spiraling thing. As a fellow person who grew up with alcoholism, we are even more willing than most to settle for unsustainable relationships, even though long term we are setting ourselves up for likely heartbreak, with a smaller possibility it would work out long term. There is a reason you hesitate to be honest that you have some big reservations here. I am glad you are here, I think you are getting food for thought that will help set you up to be ready for a lifetime of happiness instead of continuing to settle.

NewEveryDay,

As I re-read this discussion from my original post, with all the responses, it became very clear that this relationship had to end. We ended it this morning. I can tell I was flailing in the water trying to save a relationship that was sinking.

I have been divorced for 10 years now and even though I go on occasional dates, I don't fall in love very easily. Had a relationship about 2 years after my divorce and now this one. They were truly the only two women of all the dates I have gone out on that I fell in love with. So I know I don't settle for just anyone but I do hang on too long when things aren't working right.

I can choose to learn from this and grow from it, or let it beat me down. I want to learn from it.

This really sucks though. It is going to take a bit of time to feel good again.

I think you have made a very wise move.

Dr. Harley recommends that singles date 30 people. Have you considered doing that?

Hi BHINWI, just a note of sympathy/encouragement. I went through something similar, where I was trying to hold on to a relationship that required more and more effort to sustain. When I posted here, I received various pieces of advice that helped me think through the situation. I probably would've figured it out on my own, but the interaction between myself and other posters helped me resolve things faster. It sounds as if something similar happened to you. Even though you probably know you're making the right decision, it still takes time to heal from the emotional investment you made, and I sympathize with you.

On the flip side, there was a poster on my thread who I haven't seen here in a while (AGoodGuy) whose standard advice for people trying to work kinks out of a dating relationship is that it should take very little work. His reasoning was that if a dating relationship requires work, then that work is likely to get more difficult if the relationship progresses to marriage. I didn't appreciate that advice at the time because, like you, I was saddened by the loss of a relationship that in most aspects was very good.

Hopefully you'll find a new relationship in the future that seems so easy it'll feel too good to be true. As it develops, if it continues to feel too good to be true, chances are it WILL be true!

Chin up, and good luck!!

Prisca - Thanks. A wise move but a very painful one. Had she not been such a sweet person, this may have been easier. But the writing was on the wall that this relationship had to end.


Yes, I know about that recommendation. In the last 10 years, I have gone on dates with about 20 different women. I have found that each date gives me a better vision of whom I am looking for.

Thank you. Words of encouragement mean a lot at a time like this.

Sorry for your pain, but I also think you've made the right decision and I don't say that lightly. I'm glad you saw the issues and decided to be smart about it. Sometimes it hurts listening to our head when our heart tells us something different.

*relief*