Good morning fellow MB-ers.

I really need some objective advice.

A few weeks after my divorce was final (early Oct), I was thinking of Dr. Harley's advice to date 30 men prior to marriage, so I signed up for a dating site so that in the future when another attractive commitment presented itself I'd have this taken care of and could be assured of my decision.

Within two days of my post, a Christian gentleman corresponded. He came to fall in love with me based on our correspondence leading up to our first date, and I was also very attracted to the heart of the man I was getting to know.

Since then, we've spent 10 days together, six of which were an extended weekend over Thanksgiving when he joined me in a visit to an out of state sibling. Every time we see each other, I can see even more of his very unique and wonderful qualities, that I am falling in love with more and more. We have a lot of quirky compatibilities.

We email a lot, and talk on the phone every night, and spend a full Saturday each week together so we are getting very well acquainted with each other's personality.

He had done some dating prior to meeting me since his divorce, and he is assured in his mind that I am the one. He has made his intentions very clear that he is seeking a wife, and that he intends for that to be me.

We share the same faith which precludes sex before marriage (which is also a practical decision for many reasons, as we all know here), but the affection he shows towards me very easily stirs up a sexual attraction towards him which is off the charts. I have tried to not make that obvious but he has started to realize it, so it is making things harder for him.

So my dilemma is as follows:

a) the timing - while everything feels very perfect and so right, logically I have to be concerned that we have only known each other for about a month.

b) however, I feel that due to the physical side that I am experiencing, I need to make my decision sooner instead of later so we do not end up where we should not be without a marriage- or that I am not blinded by a misplaced, premature emotional bond. While we are not engaging in sexual activities, the emotional bonding I'm experiencing when he shows physical affection -given the chemistry I feel towards him- is not far short of what would occur if we were.

c) not only did I not date 30 men, I didn't even date 2. He is the only person I've dated since my divorce.


How important is it to date other men?

How much should I be concerned about the speed with which the relationship has progressed?

Thank you for any advice you have to offer!

Dr Harley clarified that he meant date up to 30 men until you find the right guy. This guy sounds wonderful! But please take more time.. Have you done a background check on him?

Also, make sure you meet and get to know his family and friends. What do they have to say about him? Find out all you can about him: any past marriages/romantic relationships, financial history. A friend of mine even exchanged credit reports with her fiance before marriage, as well as divorce documents.

Thank you Melody.

Yes, I have done the background check before meeting him for the first time. His very dear friend of 20 years is in law enforcement who I called for a reference.

We have already POJA'd some deep personal things which had the capacity to be hurtful to one or the other of us; the POJA was very wonderfully successful. He showed only care for a productive solution and no selfishness whatsoever. Which made me only fall in love with him more.

As far as the 5 things that Dr. Harley advises care about matching (intelligence, drive, values, culture, faith, social interest), we hit a perfect 10 in every area.

We both have an unusual and high drive for activity. For example, I never imagined I'd meet someone who wants to hike in a Rocky Mountain remote wilderness for a week, just like me....and does so every year, even if by himself (just like me). Not only that, in the same wilderness 1,400 miles away from where we each live. We love to hike locally, we both like to "do" instead of "watch", and not only that, "do" the same quirky things in addition to the wilderness hiking.

He has hit another perfect 10 in how he deals with my children. And another on how he nimbly defended me while avoiding offense in a tense family situation -diffusing the situation. And another in how he has my back and is protective when Stuebenville causes an issue with the kids. And another when I mentioned that I loved his homemade bread and he spent Friday night baking some from scratch to bring me down a loaf. And I can just keep adding another and another all day long. He is very smart, and shows a tremendous amount of wisdom as events occur.

He is very protective of me in a strong way, not in a smothering way. In a very welcome way.

My concern on waiting is that I am afraid our relationship will physically progress beyond what we both want it to prior to marriage. I've already started to bond with him due to our physical encounters more than I feel I should be. I feel like I'm so deep in for him that I might have blinders on already.

My concern on not waiting is that I could miss something important.

Very good advice.

All I know about his family is what he has told me so far. He wants me to meet his sister and brother soon. I agree that when I meet them, I need to observe as you have advised.

His children are somewhat estranged over his prior divorce (his ex-wife was divisive), but he is making strides in restoring the relationship with his children, and is very motivated to be successful. I think I'll get the opportunity to meet one of them within a month.

Financially, before he had any idea about what means I have, an auto-correct typo misconstrued a sentence to say that I had a financial need. He stepped up to let me know that whatever my needs were, he would take care of me financially. When i realized my typo and his selfless reaction, I only fell for him more. As it turns out, I think our net worth's are very similar, as are our spending habits (frugal).

Is he cute?

He professed love to you even before your first date? Sorry but I would slow this down...a lot. If he is as great as you say he is and he thinks you are "the one" he should be ok with you slowing down. I would be very leery of jumping from a bad marriage into an exclusive relationship so quickly.

Be sure to get that child's side on why they are estranged.

Melody, he has a very fit physique. Mmmmm!

black raven: We had corresponded at some length in email, and he did fall in love with heart of "the woman in the email", although then confirmed it and his feelings continued to advance when we met in person.

Prisca: Yes, agreed. What he has described has a ring of truth to it, and as I see his progress with them, it further confirms in my mind that his background information is accurate. I'm hoping to meet his daughter soon. He is working on setting it up.

Wow! My first thought is SLOW DOWN!!

You have children. I looked at your other posts and it looks like you have three young - preteen and teenaged daughters.

Do you know Dr Harley recommends single mothers stay single? Because you could be introducing a WHOLE NEW set of issues/problems to your life by getting seriously involved with a man you barely know.

Please slow this way down!

What do your children think of him? What do they think of you moving so fast?

I have done a WHOLE LOT of online dating and I have to say....there are an awful lot of creepy guys out there.

Even the seemingly nice ones who have children or have accounts on Christian Mingle. One guy I was supposed to go out with seemed incredibly polite, sweet and on paper seemed wonderful (had christian mingle account). When I learned more about him, I started googling and found he had an account on a sex site.

Many of these guys have lied to me about important things (age, marital status, etc).

You don't really know him yet! Please slow this down because you have children involved.

Oh my gosh! Have you had him around your children already?

I have told any prospective guy I am dating that my children and dating are separate - period! If they don't like it, bye bye. Big red flag!!

You realize that predators prey on single moms who are willing to allow access them their children, right??

I am sorry but this is a red flag

I peeked at your other threads and I am sorry to bring up the unpleasantness of your ex H but I feel it is relevant to this situation.

I would advise you to write to Dr Harley about your ex and the advice you received on that thread to expose in order to allow others to protect themselves/children from your H's behavior. Feel free to explain to him whatever reasons you felt this was not necessary.

And then explain to him this situation about dating this man, rushing things and having him around your daughters.

I am concerned that you don't make good decisions when it comes to protecting your daughters and/or when it comes to men.

I don't want to be harsh but to me, as an outsider, I am seeing some red flags and am truly concerned for your children.

My children all like him.

My youngest DS14 is very perceptive, and he noticed that this man is a male version of me (I had not commented extensively about all of our commonalities - that was just something that DS14 picked upon).

They are all very supportive, including DS23 who has visited with him quite a bit, and DDIL24 who was raised in an area where she saw a lot. I did not tell her very much about Stuebenville but she quickly read him like a book and nailed down many things about his personality that have surprised me for someone so young.

I'm not getting any warning signs from his interaction with the kids or his reactions to their less-than-perfections.

He does not intend to be a disciplinarian (that will always be my job only), but would like to be a mentor as they allow. So far they have been happy to receive any suggestions he makes, but he always makes them in a very kind and productive way.

Yes, I do realize this situation.

While I have my guard up with regard to my teenage kids, nothing I can see about him is waving any red flags there. I feel that I got a reasonably good sense of how someone softens targets in retrospect after Stuebenville's actions. Nothing I'm seeing is indicating anything in that regard - but point well taken on keeping up the observation.

Now that you have reminded me, I do remember reading other posters commenting that Dr. Harley advises single moms to remain unmarried until the daughters are out. In my case that would be in about 2 years.

The reason I didn't expose Steubenville was because by the time I got the advice to expose it was 14 years later and would have appeared to be vindictive at that specific timing during the divorce proceedings. (For the record, I came here to MB when the event occurred and was not advised to expose. Obviously things are different now, but I did seek what was MB advice at the time.)

Also, I had been observing him carefully for those 14 years and it seemed like he had really changed his ways.

But I have been almost ready to change my mind about exposing to DS23 and DDIL24 for about a week, since learning that Steubenville has vented extensively, for hours and hours, about all of his problems with me to them, which has been swaying DS23's loyalty. I have been carefully avoiding talking about my perspective of Steubenville (per his and my agreement) with the kids so they weren't tugged in the middle. Well, he doesn't think of anyone but himself- but then I should have known that.

The reason I'm considering telling DS23 is to set the stage for whatever Stuebenville has told him.....which include twisted exaggerations and in many cases plain old made-up stories. The 14 year old incident really destroyed my respect for Stuebenville and I never recovered it, making it that much harder for me to want to try to recover our marriage, and made much of my participation in the marriage rote analytical action vs heartfelt.

In the future I may tell the other children if events warrant; I am still thinking about it.

The red flag is that he is willing to rush into marriage with a woman who already has children from another man.

Dr Harley has said as much in his radio show about why he recommends single women stay single.

You yourself raise red flags - to me as an outside observer - that you tend to gloss over things that you don't want to hear, even at possible risk to others including your own children. You abandoned the last thread that you had that was warning you about possible consequences due to your non exposure of your ex H's harmful behavior.

I hope that you will take a step back and not rush into M because you are worried about excalating sexual attraction. That is not a good reason.

I would again advise you to keep this man away from your daughters. And email Dr Harley.

I still find this pretty alarming. I can certainly understand the excitement of a new dating partner but you two don't really know one another still. Getting caught up in the emotions and even fantasy of a new person is easy. Unless I'm reading incorrectly, after one date you took him out-of-state with you to stay at a sibling's house and introduced him to your children. Seems like light speed here...I would really slow this down. Those are big steps IMO and you sound like you are ready to put a ring on your finger. Don't mean to be a downer but I don't understand what the rush is.

That you still have not told your children of their father's behavior with the babysitter seems like conflict avoidance to me. Have you told this new man about your ex?

Why does he say he divorced? How old are his children?

x 2

Do not introduce children to anyone you are dating until you have known them for six months. The reason is two fold; one is that you do not want them to bond with someone who could be a short term relationship and the other is that you do not want to use your children as a bonding tool.

In my case I told my children that I had met someone I liked and we agreed on the six month timeframe together.

My children are high school or older, and my thought was to eliminate anyone who couldn't get along with them, or the menagerie that comprises my household which is a little crazy, but crazy that I love.

The kids are not only OK with the idea of me dating, but very supportive. They have all enthusiastically commented that they would just love for me to be happy. They appreciate being able to meet him, and not only that, they relish the reversal of the "mom" role as they ensure that I am also living up to all of the boundaries that I have set for them and their boyfriends. I haven't handed any authority over to them, of course, but I do try to set the example for them of the same behavior I demand from them.

I certainly wouldn't have allowed any bonding with younger children, but I thought that at their older ages it would be natural for them to be introduced. Also, as long as my children are minors, their needs, safety and stability will always come first, before any new husband, even if it means no husband while they are minors.

I'm not picking up any warning signs about him having any designs on my children, though. I did not reveal much about anything personal - or even that I had any children (or daughters) at home - until our conversations had evolved quite a bit.

But I fully agree that it is my job to always watch out for my minor son and daughters with any male in their life, and always keep my eyes open. And so I have done so, and I think they would tell you that perhaps I have done so even to a fault (in their opinion). I have always told them that the man they LEAST expect - pastor, teacher, family friend - could be a danger to them. Always, always be on guard; do not be alone with men, etc. etc.

I felt that some of the posters were had become vicious with comments about how I was as bad as my xH in his behavior.

That was completely repulsive, hurtful and unfair. Few of my accusers had any clue about the hell I had been through due to his actions, and I felt their comments were hateful. I certainly in no was culpable for his actions or contributory whatsoever.

I didn't even want to try to defend against that, and having already gotten the answer to my question about whether it's normal for single guys to have teenage sleepovers, I didn't want to spend any of the small store of emotional energy I had available to me at the time defending against spiteful comments.

SusieQ, I appreciate the very caring way you voiced your concerns. Thank you.

I learned a lot about protecting my children through the incident with Steubenville. As mentioned in a post above, they think I am overprotective/over-warning. However, if Steubenville could do that to his friend's daughter, to the daughter of someone who knew and trusted him, anyone could do it to any daughter. It was a very hard life lesson, and I have been very diligent in and focused on protecting my sons and daughters with that in mind ever since then.

I do understand that new boyfriends - or even new husbands - should not be left alone with minor daughters. In the event that we would be married prior to the girls moving out to college, we will do some logistical planning around that. He owns his own home about 1.5 hours away, so that may be an option to plan with.

I feel the only outstanding question in your thread is what would Dr. Harley say about exposing the old situation, which I feel that during my close observations over the past 14 years has not been a danger. Is it a danger now that I am not observing? I don't know, but have no recent indications that it is. I will do as you request and send an email.

So they are nearly gone. All the more reason for not introducing him before you have dated for six months.


Of course they are and they sound like great children. But they do not have the judgement of an adult and neither should they be expected to. Remember too, that they are watching and will imitate your relationship behavior.

The reason why Dr Harley suggests the 30 dates is not just about finding 'the one'. It is also about approaching dating with the right mentality. Dating is hard but it gets easier with practice. Fresh out of a marriage, we tend to come to the relationship game with too much of a buyer's mentality. It is really important to start as a freeloader and then become a renter. Freeloader to renter should not happen until the sixth month and more serious conversations are expected. Migrating from renter to buyer should not happen till marriage.

Remember that your feelings about this person are an addiction, no different from the addiction of a wayward (except that you are obviously perfectly entitled to have these feelings). Let me ask you this; how much time have you spent as a freeloader in this relationship?

How old are his children? What is the reason he says he's estranged from his children?

About 2 weeks.

We had 1 to 2 hour conversations each evening, multiple substantive emails each day, and had spent 2 full days and an evening together before I realized that he was very special, and the contrast between his strengths where Steubenville's weaknesses became glaringly (and wonderfully) apparent.

At that point I started to fall for him.

After that, we continued our 1 - 2 hour conversations on the phone each day, exchanging emails and continued seeing each other for the full day each Saturday until approximately a month into this he came with me to visit my sister.

During the visit, I saw even more very special aspects of his character. Both my sister and BIL came to like him very much. He showed a lot of wisdom and grace in how he handled situations.

He is a very deeply believing Christian, evident not only by the way he conducts himself but also by his ready ability to get very deep into Biblical concepts and knowledge. He clearly spends a substantive amount of time studying the Scriptures. Now I know a lot of frauds do, too...so this is just one of several indicators that I have been observing about his character.

The overwhelming message I'm getting from everyone is that yes, this is going too fast. I appreciate your advice and will defer any decisions until I have known him for 6 months, and even then, will come back to this thread with an update and any concerns first.

I really value the wise counsel of experienced voices for this decision. I know that I'm the least objective person in this conversation, and I appreciate everyone chiming in with more objectivity.

Yup too fast and I suggest slowing down the contacts to maybe once a week or so. That will help.

And until you are completely satisfied that you understand how he became estranged from his own children, guard your heart. You do know how unusual this is don't you?

His children are the same ages as mine.

His divorce is for the emotional abandonment/abuse from his wife who was unwilling to change or sincerely engage in the marriage. Yes, I know that I need to keep my eyes wide open with respect to his perspective and verify it.

There's this old phrase "takes one to know one", and having been married to an abusive husband the several things he has recounted could have been a page out of my own marriage. But I am certainly staying aware until the veracity of his account is confirmed.

He filed?

Thank you.

Yes I do know it is unusual, which is why I have my eyes open. Part of his wife's abuse included saying derogatory things to their children about him. Additionally she taught his kids to disrespect him; for example when he asked the children to do chores she would interject for him to do it himself.

It looks like he is breaking through to a daughter incrementally and I may be able to meet her soon. I feel that will help me verify his perspective on that.

Yes. He realized that to continue on as things were would only hurt his children more.

Then how do you reconcile this with your faith? You said you two shared the same faith and that your church would not accept your divorce to Steubenville if you had filed so you wanted him to file. New guy now has an unacceptable D if that is the case and a remarriage will not be accepted.

I'm a wee bit concerned that he may have cast himself as a knight in shining armour. Not totally, just something to bear in mind while assessing.

Men who are looking to profit from unhappy situations are just so common. However it is also totally normal for a nice guy to sympathise with a bad situation.

Personally, I wouldn't have confided serious problems in someone this early on. I think one of the best tests is not to show blood, lest you attract sharks. Of course that doesn't mean he is one.

I would shore up boundaries around guys you don't know well and who are still married. I don't say it's wrong to be open with people but holding back just makes it easier to see ahead, you know?

I think you will be able to tell with close watching. I'm just concerned that this friendship has snuck up on you both, which is maybe a boundaries issue, or a targeting but one you can easily identify if so and tweak.

Why does your H have any kind of access to your home? You need stregnth and peace in order to be ready to date.

We need to have a dedicated thread for Indie Specials. This is so wonderful and so true :-)

You are awesome, Black Raven. That was way back in another thread. Impressive!

One day when I was wrestling in prayer about my marriage about 2.5 years ago, I felt very firmly that God finally, after 20+ years of praying about what to do with my failing marriage, revealed a text for me to apply to my situation. It was in Isaiah 28 where God instructed the Israelites that they had made a covenant with death - that the bed would not be long enough or the covers wide enough to ever find comfort - and that they were to take a stick and beat it out. Within the limitations of the filter of my faith, I didn't know how to do that, so did nothing.

Well, things only got worse and I sought help from MB here where everyone told me to separate from Stuebenville. This was a shock to my system - particularly as I associated separation with divorce, something I thought I could not initiate. Well, things only got worse and my health started to crash from stress. Still I knew God wanted me to fix my problem; still I didn't know how other than to follow the MB forum advice. (those threads were deleted prior to Steubenville coming to the board). So, after a bad situation, i asked Steubenville to separate for 6 months while he worked on his anger and we dated & spent UA time working on our marriage. This did not go well.

Enter the thread that you were reading titled "A difficult conversation".

I was able to endure until Steubenville left and filed. However, I always thought about what God meant with the text, and how I could have done that. I knew He meant for me to get out - but how? Clearly God didn't mean for someone to stay in a marriage that would drive them to the grave with stress. It was a mystery but I lost my curiosity about it since it no longer applied.

Well, enter the "new man" into my life. Same situation as me, but he didn't get the fluke (the other person to file). This drove me to a lot of soul searching. Clearly it was very personally hurtful for him to hear that I didn't think he was eligible to pursue me (or anyone) because he didn't get the fluke. He didn't become offended but he was very taken aback with hurt. His very beautiful, calm and careful composure through POJA'ing a topic so personal and devastating to him was what caught my attention that he was a very special person.

I had to admit to myself that God shows more grace than my viewpoint allowed, and that God was willing to show that grace to me but I wouldn't take it. In searching the Scriptures and researching Christian research on the topic, and in aligning them with my experiences as well as what I am certain was God's instruction to me, I came to realize that my viewpoint was too narrow, and narrower than the viewpoint of God himself.

I came to understand the references throughout the Bible of how to separate yourself from an angry person and to protect yourself did not say "unless that person is your spouse". I came to understand that the woman's submission to the husband was not unconditional, and was not to be offered at harm to herself. I came to understand at a deeper level a lot of things.

In a way I think God introduced me to this relationship to close the loop of education that He had started with me but I had dropped.

So, the short story is, this forced me to face my own convictions and realize they were too narrow.

And in the process, I started falling in love with the beauty and tenderness inside this man's heart.

Thank you, Indie. My sense is that both of our feelings became sincerely and genuinely carried away too quickly. I think a 6 month coasting period will help prove that out.

My oldest son, DDIL and DGD2 live with me. Sometimes Steubenville comes to visit them, which I truly didn't mind. I'm out from under his control, I was able to release all of my bitterness and resentment towards him and it really didn't matter if he hung out in my house to be with the kids or not (that just gave me more time with them too!).

However, recently I've started to want more distance so I don't need to be self conscious about him arriving unexpectedly and I'm in my PJs, or the day I caught him going through my mail, and now certainly this Thanksgiving incident after which I asked DS23 and DDIL to not invite him over anymore. Also, since he has realized I'm dating someone he has kept more distance from my home (and stopped going to church with us - we used to pick him up at a park and ride on the way).

Now that this has evolved, I've realized that I am happier with more distance from him and want to keep it that way.

The "new man" is not interested in having Steubenville hang out there, and other than a pre-arranged doing Christmas with the kids together this year so neither of us had to miss it (which the "new man" has said would be OK with him this once since it was already set up - BUT that Steubenville better not disrespect anyone in my home), so Steubenville's visits will become a thing of the past.

In light of what happened with my DD15 over Thanksgiving, I'm not sure I should have Steubenville over for Christmas anyway, especially if they are not reconciled.

Sunny, thanks for posting this, I totally have all the same questions for my own situations, and they have been answered, but it really helps hearing the same things again. I put off my wedding to my first post-divorce boyfriend to the 2 year mark, and learned some things at a year and a half that I would not have known otherwise.

And then in retrospect we had a serious value clash from the beginning. I am a very involved parent, and my ex boyfriend hadn't seen his son in years. He told me he had gone to court to fight it, but that was actually pretty far from the truth and there was a lot of evidence for that that I was overlooking because of that chemical thing. The disparity between the picture he painted and what the facts were, the little facts that we knew, were so drastic that my mom stopped letting him come over. Still, with all this discord, I didn't see through it until after we broke up.

Things are going great with my current boyfriend, and at 6 months. We were talking future plans, and he talked about getting married a year in. But I know, if this is the man that God intends for my partner, then a two year wait will only bring more clarity. "For God is not a God of confusion but of peace." 1 Corinthians 14:33

We do have a few members who got married quickly, and are very happy. So I think it's okay to look at this as a yellow Slow flag instead of a red Stop one.

You are so soon out of your divorce, and I would have liked to see you go through the holidays without a partner, to experience that, to see God's grace, comfort and protection whether you have a partner or not. But maybe you already had that experience from the past.

As a general rule, Dr. Harley recommends that in marriage you have no contact with anyone you had a romantic relationship with in the past. This includes ex husbands and wives.

Also, call and speak with his ex wife

I have given that some thought.

Would speaking with his MC or their pastor (who agreed that he had to get out of the marriage) be as valid?

I am not sure what I had with my xH ever really qualified as a romantic relationship... lol ...but I do understand the point.

There is nothing my xH could ever do to make me feel one ounce of attraction to him again - I can't be attracted to the man he is - but I recently read a quote from Oswald Chambers that said "An unguarded strength is a double weakness."

I just haven't made my children face the normal dynamics following a divorce. I thought in time that would work itself out - which it has in that the times we are together are growing fewer and farther. I agree it is time to give that a stronger nudge.

Thank you for this perspective. Upon reflecting on the advice from the forum, and also specifically on your comment here, I agree that I will give this more time. To let the stunningly wonderful compatibilities in so many ways we seem to have stand a test of some time.

As well, I will not move forward with a marriage if my family (who I dearly love and respect) is seeing warning signs and cautioning me not to. I should have listened to them last time. I mentioned earlier that everyone who cared about me was warning me vigorously not to marry Steubenville.


I spent last Christmas out of state with all of my family and all of my children, DIL and DGD2 (without Steubenville, who visited his own family by himself). It was really wonderful, peaceful and very healing. To your point, I'm very thankful that I was able to experience a peaceful holiday season focused with God as my only provider and protector. It certainly did draw me closer to him.

I never saw an answer to this.

Also, I don't think it's a good idea to have your XH over for Christmas or any holidays. You're divorced, so he should make his own plans with the kids.

His xW turned them against him, openly excluded him from her time and activities with them, and would tell them (in front of him) to not obey their father if he wanted them to do chores - why should they do them when their father didn't want to do them himself? She also had been running him down to his and her family for years in the same manner she ran him down to his children.



I agree. This Christmas had already been agreed to, and I feel OK about it for now. I will do this for all future holidays.

Our teenage DDs certainly did NOT have a good time with the Thanksgiving holiday they just had with him, when he kicked them out of his house at 10 pm. I think that not having holidays with the kids (giving them to him) is a bum rap after all the years he kept threatening to leave, but as this past Thanksgiving shows, perhaps that will work itself out and I will not miss as many family times with the children as expected.

One of the reasons I had so many children is because I knew a future with Steubenville would be very bleak, and at least I wanted to look forward to many happy times with my children and their families. I thank God that my future might now hold not only that, but also a loving and dear husband as well (who I may have already found....but will give it time to tell, as advised).

Legally, the counselor should not disclose counseling sessions to his girlfriend.
Dr. Harley, as a general rule, encourages calling the ex-wife and asking: Why did the marriage end? What were your chief complaints about him? Etc.

Everyone that is divorced feels a similar way.
BUT, many affairs start between ex's. It is a boundary issue.

Aww thanks!

Now - Sunny, pick up the scissors and cut your ex out of your life.

Saying you 'don't mind' him there is like saying you don't mind having a big pile of trash in one of your rooms.

Now I'm sure you have the resources to get around having a big pile of trash in your living room. That you have the inner peace to see that there are stars outside your window, just past the big pile of trash!

But it is crazy to go on having it there nevertheless! My god, what he has put you thorough. You should keep him as far away from your life as possible.

It will also have a good effect on your dating life. It tells suitors you don't stay in touch with old lovers confirming a) you're likely to be faithful and b) if they cross you they will lose the best thing they ever had!

It hurts any decent parent to consider their children not having joint parenting, but if you feel that way you dont divorce unless faced with scumbag behaviour.

Keeping a scumbag ex around, in yours and their sanctuary, is not going to help the kids.

Personally, I would not date someone that still is around their ex. I also would not date a woman whose best friend is a man.
If you watch the Santa Claus movie series, he was always around the ex and her new husband and I think it just causes confusion for kids viewing it. It must have been written by a wayward.

Good point, Jedi.

I have no desire to be around my ex - so that will be an easy step.

I will take that separation to the next step on Dec 26 since Christmas has already been set up for a long time and the kids have planned around it.

Seems fishy and not really believable to me. Sorry.

It would be very hard to turn my kids against their father...and you would think it would be easy as he has done a lot of crappy things to them. But as long as he is involved and gives them any attention, they both want some type of a relationship with him. I would say my DD19 has been estranged on and off from her father for a while now, but as long as he TRIES, she will cave and let him in.

I agree. Something seems "off" as to why he's estranged from them. If they are older kids then they can make their own decisions. Are they minor children? How old are they?

If it's HER time with her kids then what's the problem? They are divorced. If she was such a troll then why does he even want to be around her?

Sounds like she could be in Plan B (smart woman given they are divorced) and he is the one with problem. What activities?


Hmmmmm I would not take his word for this. It could be the truth or have some truth but you only have his word about what has transpired.

x 3

No, this was while they were married. She wouldn't invite him or even allow him to come along at his request when she was taking the kids to games or family fun activities. He is not trying to join these activities with her now that they are divorced.

He is making headway with the only child who is still a minor. I think I'll be able to meet her within a month and will be able to assess it then.

I hope to meet his daughter within the next month. It seems she is opening up to his overtures. I'll be able to understand the situation much better then.

So he is a wimp? Sorry but he didn't have to be invited to go see his children's games. If he wanted to be there, he would have been there. This sounds lame to me.

No, to other games, like an MLB game or such.

she would make plans to go with the kids, and if he found out about it and want to come along as well, she would not have a ticket for him and tell him (in front of the kids) that she and the kids didn't want him along.

If his children knew this (or he didn't speak up) then why would they not want have a relationship with him? I have to head out but this still seems odd.

It just seems to me that they had been poisoned against him.

His xW was also poisoning his family against him until they all caught on to it.

As I mentioned earlier, though, I hope to meet his daughter soon and can get a sense of it then.

So he has one minor child at home with his XW?

What about the older children? They still won't have a relationship with him? Not even through text or email? They aren't living with their mom, correct?

Have his family told you about this?

I have a former BW friend whose ex is with a new partner. She sees her ex working to all the same patterns with this new girl, but says nothing. Neither do his family.

However her daughters have heard them discussing how my friend has 'poisoned' them.

Actually nothing could be further from the truth. She never exposed initially (long time ago) and because children tend to blame themselves when that happens, the eldest is very clingy with the dad who left in confusing circumstances. The littlest one is very normal with him.

I have two other friends, both adults with wayward mothers. Both mothers repeatedly told them growing up that their fathers were violent. One knew about the affair and did not credit it. The other did not, was confused, but was never able to see any violence in his father.

It's fairly difficult to poison a child's mind against its parent. Oh it can happen. I just think it is claimed far more often than it really happens.

If you think about the history of your own past marriage, would ex's future fiance would be better off getting the history from you, or from a 3rd party?

Dr. Harley discussed this on MBR, and said something like: The point in calling the ex-wife herself is to SEEK OUT the opposing view and look at the picture intelligently. Of course she will have a bone to pick with your husband, but there will still be truth in her perspective. This would be an opportunity to measure what he says against what she tells you directly. It is also an opportunity to see how he handles the concept of trust being built through verification.

I think you should slow down a bit but I know that it's not so easy... I'm not sure what should you do...

I don't have any advice but the topic of going to the ex for an evaluation is fascinating to me.

For us BSes I'd think someone going to the fogged out wayward ex would yield accusations of being "controlling" or "manipulative" since this is the wayward script. And I could easily see where the family of the wayward would accuse the BS of trying to "poison" them against the WS simply for having exposed them to the truth, which they chose to ignore.

I'll admit, it's a little scary to me. My WW gave me a laundry list of complaints the day she asked to separate, most of which she'd never communicated to me or even had communicated the opposite to me in the past. I have no idea what she'd say to someone else about me, truly. Any of her ex boyfriends before we met were basically persona non grata to her, scum of the earth if you heard her side of it. I have to think I'm part of that club of terrible people in her mind now.

So I kinda don't get the point of talking to an ex. You could talk to most anyone on either side of the families in my situation, and even any the friends my wife and I had when we were married, and get probably a vastly different take than my wife would offer, simply because of the fog.

I trust Dr. Harley but this is a little hard to understand for me.

You would talk to them, but not with the intention of swallowing what they say whole.

You would dismiss most of it, but would keep your eyes/ears peeled for anything that struck you as something you would be able to observe yourself.

I know my ex would have lots of things to say about me and some of them would even be true. I wouldn't be in the slightest concerned about his telling anyone about my temper for example, because it can be seen how I've worked on it.

You know, that's a very good point. I get it now. Even if they are negative, there's the contrast effect. Even a broken clock is right twice a day and I've certainly got things my WW would say that are true and I need to work on.

Any how-to kind of advice? This isn't a common thing, and is sure to stir the pot in many cases I would think.

I think my guy and I are serious enough that I would like to talk to his XW. What kinds of things do you ask? "I'm getting serious with your XH, and he's around my kids quite a bit, what should I know going into this?" Do you call, or arrange a meeting? Doesn't this rock the boat, how do you approach it with your partner?

Or do you wait until like you're engaged or something?

You do not want to even introduce him to your children until you have passed the 6 month mark and there have been absolutely no red flags.

Too fast is a red flag of itself.

Then it might be time for the 6 month conversation where you both talk about where this relationship might go. Explain that talking to his ex/meeting his children would help you to understand more about him which would be good for you both.

Offer to introduce him to your children/talk to your ex too

LW that makes a ton of sense. One day this stuff will get obvious to me too.

Sunny, where'd you go?

I would email dr Harley with your question.
I would like to hear his answer.

Hi NED,

I'm still here. :-) Thanks for checking in!

My relationship with this guy is still going. At this point, I'm seriously considering that he could be "THE" one. I've had a chance to see him react to a number of different challenges/ conflicts, and every time he handles them very beautifully so I fall a little bit more in love with him.

That said, I've set a timeline of not taking the relationship further until July, giving another 6 months before that next conversation.

We compliment each other so well, so completely. Even others are saying we are just mirror versions of each other. Also, I know all of the characteristics of Steubenville that didn't work, and the new guy hits the opposite out of the ball park every time.

I've been able to meet his minor daughter (as advised by MB posters), who is delightful and it is clear that their relationship is well towards being repaired. We have plans for me to meet his other children soon, and that will be telling, also.

In hearing about their marriage, I can pick up that the LB on his side was educating and trying to motivate his xW, who reacted by withdrawing and being even less productive. I've met her and she has vastly less energy, motivation and just general life knowledge than he does so she could very well have been quite intimidated by all of his "educating".

Although, it has been my perception that he was trying so hard not to be obnoxious - just trying to find a solution that would work for both of them in the most refrained way possible. I can see his very careful and thoughtful approach play out in how he deals with other conflicts, so I believe that this will either not be an LB displayed toward me (since I am opposite of her in this regard - high energy, highly competent in many life skills as well as in my career, someone who can always find that last burst of adrenaline to get any job done no matter how impossible, etc.).

If he does try to educate me (no indications of that whatsoever), I'm very self confident and can nicely put a stop to that. In short, I feel we are intellectual equals and I'm not intimidated that he might know more than me in some areas, and I balance that out by knowing more than him in some other areas.

His children prove out his perception of xW and the problems he struggled with in their marriage. Specifically, the one I met lacks the desire to try very hard at anything, and easily quits things. So, when he described how his wife and son are both that way, I can see the truth of that reflecting in his daughter with my own eyes, as well.

So, the short story is that everything he has represented is appearing to be genuine.

I'm still giving it time, and will be back in 6 months with an update and for further advice/confirmation.

However, in the meantime, Steubenville has grown bitterly resentful and has informed me (in front of our youngest child, DS14) that he is going to do take me back to court. He'll be alleging some kind of motherly neglect to either reduce his child support payments or to eliminate my half of custody. He is actively alienating the kids against me, somewhat successfully with DD16 and DD15, by instigating that they give him information about me and by using them as his own personal "your mother was nuts" therapist.

Given that I had no attorney representation (but he did), and that all of the correspondence shows he said what he would pay and my response was always "ok", I think he'd have a hard time telling a judge that our divorce settlement was unfair to him.

Are you going to be seeing a lawyer?

He hasn't taken an action yet to which I can respond (in a legal sense).

However, should he do so, I will very fully and forcefully respond. I don't know what he's thinking given that some very serious dirt in his past would throw questions on whether HE would be the best parent.

In a way, I think him taking this will be good for me (as it relates to him) because it will permanently squelch any idea of his that he can exercise any power over me in my life. However, it is not good for the children whatsoever. It will take a long time to repair the damage done with two of my teens (the girls).

I know he is jealous that I have the beautiful dream home we built and he is in a small bi-level. However, my income potential can support it and his can't, so he offered that I should stay in it and he should move. The equity in the house was factored into the balance of what he walked away with (his larger 401(k)s), so he didn't "give" me any breaks to leave me with the house.

He has also run himself into more debt than he can service, buying cars (yes plural) that he didn't need and $20k in furniture as well as much other frivolous spending. He is having to tap into his 401(k) just to meet monthly ends. I am being frugal and am not in a financial bind or cash flow problem. He resents that he is and has scathingly referenced his "premium child support" both to me and to the kids at times, as if because he is paying me "premium child support" he can dictate what goes on in my life and/or home.

He became this very bitter and nasty, alienating person as soon as I started seeing the man discussed in this thread. I honestly did not foresee or expect that he would behave this way.

Stay on top of documenting anything that he is doing by trying to alienate the children. Those situations can escalate out of control.

Thanks for the update, Sunny. Glad that things are going well with your new guy.

And good luck to your exWH if he thinks he can overturn a divorce settlement because he's an idiot. HIs lawyer will likely tell him he is SOL. Until there is anything filed, I would ignore him. Why are you in contact with him? I would fix that pronto especially if he's acting ugly. You don't need to hear his whining or threats. Let him stew.

I agree. Why don't you have an IM?

I didn't need an IM at all.

I went through a six month period of so many once-in-a-lifetime trials piled on top of each other starting in Feb of 2014 that after that was all done, I had a renewed faith in God's providence while having purged out any bitterness I had felt (there wasn't time and I had bigger problems). So, after that was over, I had no need for distance or plan B.

However, I think it would be good for Steubenville to be in Plan B, so I may initiate it after all. The problem is he pumps the kids for extended conversations about me, so there is little I can do to stop that other than to ask the kids not to talk to him about me. They each respond in their own way to that. DD15 (the one he lost his cool with on Thanksgiving) is back to being his very best friend after I did not give her permission to order pizza in on January 2. So she called him and he gave her his credit card # to order in pizza (I do not believe he knew I had already said no). She has ignored me and been very short with me ever since.

When I asked her to not have conversations with her dad about me, she burst out the he "was her only comfort!" - she was specifically referring to her "broken" relationship with me, and needing comfort from it. All of this because I said no to pizza.
Prior to that, she wasn't talking to him (because of the Thanksgiving incident) until several days before Jan 2 he invited her to go on an international trip with him which bribed her into being best friends with him again.

I can see a decline in my children's well being and need to put together a strategy to stop it. Being the bigger person isn't stopping the problem.

Thank you Brainhurts. Good advice. I will start doing that.

I'm happy to let him stew. What he does doesn't bother me one bit, and I don't care if he sues me. If I get served with a lawsuit, I'll give the person serving it a tip!

I just worry about the kids.

You may not be able to stop it, Sunny. It's not about being the bigger person even. (ex)WSs will use their children to cause conflict and drama when they don't get there way. About the only thing you can do is keep your boundaries and guide your children as much as possible. That your children are teens is challenging alone...getting mad over pizza...well there ya go. Accept that Steubenville will play the Disneyland Dad to bribe them...that is typical.

I am not in Plan B nor have an IM but I have hardly any contact with my exWH. He is not welcome in my home. Even if you don't use an IM or Plan B him with NC, I would limit your contact and communication with him as much as possible. There is nothing that can't be communicated via email or text.

Understood. I would still cut him out as much as possible.

Most of us who are in Plan B/limited contact with the ex "don't care" about them either but want to maintain peace in the household and not subject ourselves and especially our kids to unnecessary drama.

I would invite you to read the Parallel Parenting in Plan B link in my signature line. It is designed to prevent EXACTLY this:



From the PP/PB thread:


You said that your children are not doing well so I really hope that you will finally consider Plan B.

My children have NEVER witness an exchange between their father and I since our separation and don't really have any idea of the ongoing court battles that have been going on off and on over the last 3 years (at least the youngest doesn't). They are both doing EXTREMELY well.

Sunny, thanks for the update, it great hearing you happy

I took a parenting class last year, that focused on ways to engage with and encourage your teens. If you have HNHN for Parents, there is a great chapter in there on teaching kids thoughtfulness. My daughter is a loner by nature, but she has really benefited from the extended focus on FC time. Both of us have

Jedi, I will write to Dr. Harley. Is there anything I should listen to first, what he's already said? Anything I should add? He's been a great resource so far. The situations are the same with my nephew and my xh but I have a lot more peace about both those situations.

I so agree with this. Please reread this excellent advice.

Parallel Parenting is the way to go. It has been a godsend, and I haven't talked or seen my WXH in over 7 years. My kids are very good and well adjusted kids and that counts going through those tumultuous teen years.

Hi everyone,

As promised, here is an update on my growing relationship:

This man continues to be everything I could have dreamed of.

He is very humble to resolve differences of opinion or differences of perspective; he is diligent to ensure anything he perceives is immediately addressed and resolved. In most cases, I am the one who had the "off" perception of something to bring to his attention; he has had very few to bring to mine. The way we relate to each other in these cases can't even really be called "conflicts"; he eagerly pursues a productive resolution of perspective that's best for both of us.

He is thrilled with the idea of 15 hours of UA per week in a marriage; when I sent him the UA link he couldn't have been more excited. He said THAT is what he so desired, even craved in his first marriage but it was refused. He could hardly believe his great fortune with me that I was the one initiating and pursuing the idea. He has reminded me many times about how I have promised UA time in a marriage and he is looking forward to holding me to it! :-)

We are so in tune with the recreational activities we enjoy (now together), but we also have the BEST of times while doing them. We enjoy each other's dialog and humor, each other's interests (we share the vast majority of them), and just all around, each other's company and personality.

He expresses an appetite similar to mine (insatiable!) for affection and keeping company with one another - doing things together.

I couldn't imagine being happier with anyone else on this earth than with him, or more compatible, or more in love with, so I've accepted his proposal for marriage with great joy and excitement.

We are planning to be married in September or October.

My teenage daughters (16, 17) are still struggling with the idea that I am so SO very happy with someone who is not their daddy. They don't mind that we are dating but they are sad about what never was and never can be with their dad/mom. They see how deeply we care for each other, how seamlessly and happily we work together and just enjoy being in each other's presence, and they have said they are sad they couldn't have witnessed that type of relationship between their dad and I.

So, we are going to initially continue with the same pattern we have now (him visiting for Friday and Saturday, and I will start visiting him on Wednesday) until the girls express a readiness for a fuller integration. Worst case scenario, we would continue this for two years when my 16 year old graduates from high school.

I know Dr. Harley has allowed for this setup in step families in the past, but I do not believe we will need to do this for the entire two years. I believe my daughters' will acclimate at some point. However, we're prepared to do so for the sake of the girls if we need to.

All of my sons, including my youngest one at home (15) express strong support and welcome him warmly into our family. Four of my siblings have met him (and their spouses) and all of them provide their strong and unreserved positive feedback as to their impression of his character, person and compatibility with me.

This is so very different from my first M, where everyone I knew was exhorting me to not marry Steubenville - even people who only knew me casually still went out of their way to strongly discourage me from marrying him. Not a single person in my life - not one - was happy for me that I was marrying him. No one in my life has expresses any reservations about this relationship or him. They are very excited for us and our decision to move forward with marriage.

The obvious question is why not just wait for two years? The answer is we simply can't. It is time for our relationship to progress to this next level. We are ready to "buy".

Wait, Dr. Harley suggests living apart and "visiting" for second marriages with children? You will only see your husband on the weekend and on Wednesdays when you are married? I am just trying to clarify.

I don't want to rain on your parade, and I'm in no position to give advice, but aren't you concerned that you're getting married while still in the infatuation stage?

Not in every case, just in some cases.

Here: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5008b_qa.html


Initially or in the worst case scenario, for two years.

NWB77, I would hate to marry someone I wasn't infatuated with?

I recognize the initial stages of our relationship as infatuation - which at first concerned me about how fast it was hitting me, thus this thread - but it has since matured much deeper than that.

It's hard to describe the difference between the initial flash and the deeply felt/established connection, because in a sense the words of the sensations might sound similar, but when that pivot happens, it's something that is deeply felt and just hard to find adequate words for.

Wouldn't this be putting your children's interests above your own? My mom got remarried when I was a teenager and with the exception of not attending their wedding, it was clear to me that they were getting married and there wasn't much I could do about it. I lived with them part time (I had a car by then and mostly lived with my dad, who kept the house I grew up in, but would spend about 30% of my mom and step dad). They have problems in their marriage now, but at the time, I accepted the reality of their marriage and he was a decent step-dad (supportive, but didn't overstep his bounds with a teenager). The bigger problem was with my mom trying to force a closer relationship than we had. But over time, I grew fond of him.

I wasn't thrilled when either of my parents got remarried, but I also understood there was nothing I could do about it and that I was going to be in college soon, etc.

Just as an aside, it seems like the worst age for step kids would be like the 8-13 range. It seems like it would be easier to blend when they are either younger or older...but I have no clue. It isn't something I've faced.

The girls have said that if a larger integration occurs into their daily lives they will go live with their dad instead of living with me as they do now.

I am not willing to give up the girls when we can simply organize our lives temporarily this way instead.

Your experience is really interesting. You were already living with your dad before your mom remarried, though, right?

I have tried not to force any relationship and have given the girls a lot of space when they were rude to the man I was dating while adjusting to the idea. Initially they were both enthusiastic about my dating, and once the dating was under way for a while, they began to experience the conflicting emotions and for several months were rude him.

They aren't rude anymore and act normal/cordial....but they still feel conflicted and sad about never getting to experience seeing their dad in a relationship with me like the one I enjoy now.

Like I said, I have zero experience with this. It's just that personally, I would be worried that the initial rush of PEA would be masking problems that I would see if my brain weren't telling me to deliberately ignore them. We aren't products of our emotions, though, so if you can take a step back and objectively evaluate him and your relationship I assume you'll be fine.

It is what Dr. Harley recommends in some blended families. Blending families is not easy, and for the marriage to survive, this is sometimes needed.

I would ask Dr. Harley to look over your plan and guide you through this, Sunnytimes.


My sisters were 2 and 4 when my mom married my dad. Their marriage was filled with trauma and drama until my sisters moved out when they were 11 and 13 to go live with their dad.

Blending families is not easy, no matter how young the kids are.

I think that once the children's disciplinary expectations are set (what they will or will not be disciplined for) it is particularly hard to integrate stepfamilies because the other spouse has set disciplinary expectations differently for his/her kids.

This is one area we had some discussions on - we had disciplined/expected differently of our kids - and came to the conclusion that the best the other spouse could be for step kids is a mentor as the kids allow.

And, our choice to move forward was with a decision that the current state of either's kids is not untenable to the other because, by mutual agreement, the status quo for each will continue. We have both made that decision that the status quo is fine, and we can both happily live with it, and even more especially for just the temporary duration.

This isn't a generic conclusion, but just specific to our own minor children because they are 15, 16, 16 and 17.

It is a little too late for a disciplinary sea change in their lives.

Well, Marriage Builders is the result of studying how to keep infatuation going in marriage permanently so that it's not a "stage." Usually when Dr. Harley discusses what people call "stages" in a relationship, he refers to them as the stages of a dying relationship!

Sunny, have you asked him if, once married, if you told him you weren't enthusiastic about something he wanted to do, if he would refrain from doing it and look for an alternative?

I can understand why.

At some point a parent is programmed to turn into a mamma grizz in defense of her children. I experienced the knowledge that this could be an eventual situation in the future IF a stepfather would complain and nit pick about them a lot, for example.

I know I would. As Dr. Harley inferred, it's hard to POJA mamma grizz away.

We both have our eyes open to this; he knows he could possibly be turned to that defense as well.

I have purposefully chosen to make no comments to him about his children that aren't positive. I have no reason to make negative comments - and that's easier for me than for him because he is not the parent they are residing with.

He has seen the wisdom of this and has joined me in that with respect to comments about my children.

If something were to happen that would affect me in such a way I'd want it dealt with, we would just productively POJA it. And vice versa. We have already experienced a situation like this and very nicely came to a quick resolution which has been nicely agreeable to both of us.

He likes to say "in a feast of egos, everyone goes home hungry." I like that thought and agree!

We both acknowledge neither of our sets of children are perfect - and can actually be aggravating at times! - but we both acknowledge it could be a lovebuster to hear about that from each other frequently.

I think you need to run your plan by Dr. Harley.

The advice to live separately for awhile is not really intended to be the starting point in a new marriage. It is really a last resort thing, when nothing else will work. There are very big risks in living separately.

He may very well tell you it is the best thing in your case. But get his guidance on it -- he'll talk to you for free.

But if the children start to do something that bothers one of you, you guys would need to be radically honest about that, and the parent of the child would need to act on it. Of course you would need to talk about it respectfully, but you would have to deal with the negative rather than avoiding the conflict.

Yes, markos.

In fact we have already had situations where it became very clear that he sincerely desired to put our relationship and my love for him ahead of his desires or preferences His character is strongly driven to find mutual preferences.

To follow that, he is a natural POJA-er. He has a very humble nature and instinctively seeks solutions for others as well as himself. We both share this trait, and have really worked beautifully together in POJA situations where we both found resolutions we were enthusiastic about.

POJA and conflict resolution is a HUGE deal to me - and something I've carefully watched for - since that is one reason for the break down of my prior M. I suffered for a long time under abusive conflict resolution and I am NOT up for seconds!

I agree that blending families is very difficult. It is good to go in with your eyes open and a Plan to deal with conflict. And Prisca is right, it can happen at any age. The best case scenarios I have seen come when only one person in the relationship has kids and the ex is either totally out of the picture or only tangentially involved (visitation, but not a lot of involvement).

Honestly , it's even hard when the kids are our of the house. My dad's second wife did not like me at all and it caused drama even when I was an adult because I was not really welcome in their home (I was allowed there because my father insisted, but new wife made me feel uncomfortable). They have sicnr divorced (you can imagine why).

Yes, agreed.

We are aware of the overall routines and cadence of how the children live/are disciplined/individual parental expectations. We have both chosen to accept this on a general level.

He has brought specific things up about my children, but he presents them in a building-up way, i.e. this is affecting me, how can we resolve it for the betterment of the child?

He believes discipline is for their future profit, not to get even or really even punish what they already did. This verse really convicted him when his children were young so he focused his own disciplinary mentality accordingly.

Hebrews 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
Hebrews 12:10For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.

Following Marriage Builders will keep the PEA flowing? Do you have a study to reference on this?

Following Marriage Builders will cause a husband and wife to stay in love for a lifetime. Dr. Harley mentions this all the time. Even mentions that the brains can and have been scanned with MRIs to demonstrate this.

Dr. Harley doesn't separate out an infatuation stage. That's not a Marriage Builders concept that I've ever seen.

I'm curious about what you think is the reason why. You are hinting that it had to do with her dislike of you, and I wonder how that would have led to the divorce.

I have not seen Dr Harley refer to PEA. I know that this is something that other sites refer to a lot. Dr Harley refers to romantic love, and I'm sure you know that his goal is to create and maintain romantic love throughout the marriage.

nmw, I bumped a thread in Other Topics for you. It discussed the scientific evidence that romantic love can easily be sustained in long marriages. Please have a look at it.

Hi SC, yes, I did. Thank you. I don't want to thread jack, but really quick, is infatuation the same as romantic love? I'm still new to this, and I personally never saw a transition from "infatuation" to "long-term love" or whatever in my 16-year marriage. I was still madly in love with my wife, even if I didn't always show it. Being with her still made my heart skip a beat.

Well, the divorce actually had to do with her wanting to move and my dad not wanting to move and them not being able to come to agreement on that. She ended up moving to another state and filing for divorce. The fact she didn't like me probably didn't help, but it wasn't the final straw or anything. I wasn't enough of a factor to completely end it as I was already out of the house.

BTW--the reason she didn't like me: When I was in college, I asked my dad for financial help with a plan ticket so I could do an internship overseas. I was planning on paying him back, I just didn't have the cash upfront and didn't want to use a credit card. I was fine if he had said, "no." I sent an email about it and got a reply from her where she went ballistic for even asking. She just attacked me directly before even talking to my dad. After that, she just hated me and I just wanted to avoid her. In MB world, she would have talked to my dad and could have come to an agreement and then told me whatever the decision was.


In general, they never had an integrated lifestyle. It was always very much, "that's your stuff. those are your kids. this is my house." It was a study in how not to be married. I think because they were older and their kids were adults, they thought they could kind of be independent but married, but as we all know, it doesn't work that way.

I know. But since my girls are 16 and 17 there are practical reasons behind this, too. He doesn't want to be alone with them for extended times just for the common sense reasons of not having the appearance of anything unacceptable, or the opportunity to be accused of such by my xH.

My xH has NO problems with just making stuff up and spreading it around the country. When confronted, he thinks that saying things like that with the caveat that he just thinks it might be the case exonerates him from any accusation of gossip or lying.

I came into possession of a long email thread where he made up just gross lies, one of many being that he believes this man and I were having an affair and that's why I couldn't be pleased in the M! I can document that I met this man on a dating site several weeks after our divorce, and that we met for the very first time on Nov 5 - AFTER our divorce. When I heard rumors of such (including a DIL who heard it directly from him) I asked xH why he would say such a thing and he vigorously denounced that he said any such thing - anyone who said he would is lying!

Several months later an email thread was forwarded courtesy of someone he was trashing me to so I could understand what he was saying and address it with the kids if necessary. I really appreciated it and found that my xH had also told our son (15) this affair speculation so I set the record straight with each of our children in case they should hear such a thing.

We just feel that for this short temporary season we can avoid a lot of problems by continuing in this fashion.

The main problem to avoid is really not xH fantasies or "appearances", it's that the girls have expressed him moving in would make them sad enough they would move to their father's house.



I know.

We are however in touch in some way almost constantly and would get more than our 15 hours of UA under this plan.

I know we are all wired for affairs, but his account in my lovebank is so overwhelmingly full that I have NO thought or interest in another man's conversation. His is geared the same way. He never allowed himself to think of affairs when his prior M was so difficult for so many years, and I'm confident that we will be fine.

By the time we are married (Sept/Oct) it will only be for 18 months at the longest; possibly shorter if the girls acclimate to the transition sooner. We plan to try pushing this along with an extra night here or there to see if any effect, and then incorporate that extra night into the routine, etc.

Also, my children are old enough I could also gradually transition to spending more than one night at his house during this 18 months.

I am open for complete electronic transparency and all other precautions, etc.

Why not wait? We just don't want to. Waiting has no appeal whatsoever. We're ready now for the next step of commitment.

I will consider emailing Dr. Harley. Thank you for recommending it. However, you, markos and the "regulars" here are so insightful with your in-depth knowledge/experience of Dr. Harley's methods that I've found the MB community advice to be far more helpful than the coaching I paid $1,000 for, which contradicted your urgent, spot-on advice and didn't help at all. I am quite comfortable with listening to the regular posters for advice.

While my initial threads were taken down prior to my inviting Stuebenville on board so they can't be referenced now, you guys were so amazingly, wonderfully perceptive and precise - and prescient - that I appreciate every day the new perspective you gave me on abuse being unacceptable and how to deal with it such that it is resolved and eliminated. In my case, via divorce. And I couldn't be happier.

Thanks for the clarification, Markos. As someone who is recently divorced, this topic is very interesting to me. I'm not ready to start dating yet, but I'm trying to learn as much as I can if that's where life leads.

I think it probably varies depending on who is using the term. Dr. Harley just seems to say "in love" or "not in love." I saw someone here once using the word "limerence" and had to look it up and it basically meant "being in love" the way Dr. Harley defines it, but the people who invented the word seemed to be treating it like it was some sort of personality disorder!

Lol...I remember that one!

Yeah, a lot of the "standers" who buy into the mid-life crisis stuff use the word limerance, as though it excuses the affair. As in, "oh no! limerance has gripped him!" Instead of "he's having an affair and fell in love with her and our real marriage doesn't compare with his lala fantasy of her." Its one of the many things people do to kind of make affairs seem like "external disorders" which people have to control over instead of a conscience decision to get involved with someone else.

That was because you introduced them to him too early. Dr Harley says to wait till you have been dating for six months and are at the serious conversation stage. That way you are presenting a decision not a question. I do not know how you undo this mistake or if you even can. Ask Dr Harley for advice, be honest about what happened.

Did you ever email Dr Harley as you said you would earlier in this thread?

The coaching is different than writing into Dr Harley on the radio show. ITA agree with Prisca that you should talk to Dr Harley about your plan, especially given the fact that your children are not happy with this man and it sounds like you rushed and introduced them to each other early in the relationship. I can tell you right now that my ex H did that with my children and his new M has been riddled with problems and tensions involving the kids. Blended family nightmares are COMMON on this forum. I wouldn't play around - email Dr Harley.

Additionally, I am puzzled by your comments about being "happy" with just forum members advice because you have a history of disappearing when you get MB advice and coming back and not addressing the posts that you ignored. I will be back with an example.

Are you still in contact with your ex H and allowing him into your home and allowing interaction to take place in front your children?

Your daughters might have been fine with the "idea" of you dating (gee, maybe she will be happy) but now they are confronted with the reality of it, and realization that it is hard on them. They are not mature adults and please do not forget that. It sounds like these children are being exposed to a lot of mature issues and drama.

I think all the advice from the first page of this thread is still applicable.

Shortly after the referenced post, Steubenville saw how his drama was affecting the kids, specifically DD17. She nearly had an emotional break down.

Since that time Steubenville has been very cordial in person and in front of the kids. I do not believe he dwells on his issues with me to them very much anymore. Although I was surprised to hear that the affair suggestion had made it to DS15.

DS15 is very pragmatic and sees through a lot about his father. He deduced and stated (without ANY suggestion from me) that his dad's drama was all about the money; that his dad wanted to pay less. DS15 was exactly right on. Soon afterwards my xH asked for me to voluntarily accept $600 less in monthly CS because he couldn't service his debts (most of them post divorce), pay me and eat from his income. There was a provision in the divorce decree that I was interested in trading for that, so I agreed to do so.

Our interaction is now cordial and provides no drama with the kids.

I have one last pending action item regarding the drama and that will be to address the nasty things that I learned he was just making up and saying around to everyone (although seemingly not as much to the kids). I have some thoughts on that .... and told him that I would give some thought as to how I would resolve it when it came to light....so he is expecting an action from me regarding it, but continues to be cordial and friendly in the meantime. Almost to the level of cordiality during the good times as when we were married absent the abuse (which he recognizes I no longer need to tolerate).

So, had the situation not dramatically changed I would have gone into Plan B. Since it had changed, it seemed unnecessary and to this day I think the kids are happier with the working cordiality we share than they would be with a Plan B situation.

To clarify, we are not social buddies by any stretch.

However, sometimes I'm at DS24's home and xH will also happen to drop by.

Or, the kids really enjoy that we both attend their traditional birthday dinners, so we have had no problems being cordial at those. The kids comment very happily about how much they enjoy those occasions.

Once I'm married, my husband will attend as well or I will not. it will be the new husband's choice entirely and I will have NO resentment or reservations regarding his choice. Currently he does not mind my attendance at these extended family events (he lives too far away to attend them also). The minute he minds, I will stop attending and be pleased that he has allowed me know about it so I can avoid an action that will bother him.

When the xH drops the kids off, he is always pleasant now and we exchange a few cordial paragraphs in front of the kids.

Other than that and logistical phone calls about car exchanges, taxi duties and such, we have no social interaction.

That's exactly what happened; they were happy with the idea but then when they saw the reality they realized they had some grieving left.



They are no longer being exposed to drama, per the update above. Right now all of the minor children still home are abiding in a pleasant attitude and routine, and are not subjected to adult drama.

They are no longer rude to my fiance and they are showing a very respectful attitude towards me. They seem to be quite happy.

Some days I almost have to pinch myself and ask if this wonderful day really happened!

The girls are just sad that they couldn't see their own dad as the other partner in my very happy relationship.

The only unfinished business from forum recommendations is exposing the situation which occurred in 2001, and the email to Dr. Harley surrounding that.

Shortly after that advice, when Steubenville was still venting at long length about me to the kids, I did expose this situation to my adult children, but not to the minor children.

I exposed to the adult children because Steubenville seemed to be really indulging in venting conversations with them that were ugly and simply not true.

I told them in the vein of "Well, first of all that whole story is not true. While it is true that I fell out of love with him, the reasons for that are his terrible, mean anger, his frequent threats to leave the marriage and finally a compromising act he committed with a minor female shortly after DS15 was born which destroyed my respect for him, and for which he almost went to jail."

However, in this recent email thread Steubenville sent (mentioned in above posts) that I was later copied on, Steubenville makes an allegation that I will answer by exposing to all who I can determine have received this message with the information that it's because he engaged in compromising behavior with a teenager.

At that time I will likely finish up exposure with the kids to now include the minor children.

While it was usually not easy to implement the forum's advice, particularly initially when I was shocked to receive the strong and fervent urgings to separate (something which I had never considered!), I have eventually come around to implement it. 25 years was a long time to dwell in an abusive marriage without understanding how to place boundaries to protect myself from abuse. I didn't have a switch to flip where suddenly I "saw the light"!

Coming around to forum advice was very very hard, but eventually I finally had no choice. At that point, I informed Steubenville that we would be separating and I paid $1,000 for coaching so we could be guided through the separation, UA efforts and reconciliation behaviors, but received advice NOT to separate contrary to the forum.

As the forum knew (and I knew) the LBs would take far more work and time to stop than I had left in me, so not separating was the final death knell of an already dead relationship. When I began asserting myself per MB for the multiple daily LBs ("that bothers me") or not tolerating the abuse, the xH quickly realized he wanted none of that and moved to initiate a divorce. I couldn't be happier. I appreciate the effort the forum took to work me over!

You guys were persistent and every day I'm grateful to Melody, markos, prisca, Mr. Alias and every single one of you for hanging in there and showing me how to change my life.

That is too much for me to go through and try to pick apart. The big picture is: You are doing a lot of things not the way that Dr Harley would advise you.

~Not exposing your WH's affairs/molestation

~Interacting with your ex WH when you have already told us he is bitter and has confronted you about adult issues (taking you back to court) in front of your children and you have already told us your children are not doing well

~Marrying but living separately with tensions involving your kids, not to mention Dr Harley general advice is for single moms to stay single until kids are grown

Again, I would advise you to email Dr Harley but if you have convinced yourself otherwise for whatever reason, that's OK by me.

If this is true, and you respect our opinions that much, I hope you will take our advice and email Dr. Harley and ask him to look over your plan.

Partially done (to adult children). I will finish with the minor children in the next month when I deal with the email he initiated.



Several weeks after that he changed his behavior radically and the children are doing very well now regarding how xH and I cooperate together.



There are no tensions involving the kids. We each accept the general status quo of how each other's children behave and are disciplined, each by our own acknowledgement and choice.

If something specific occurs that bothers him, he lets me know about it along the lines of "this situation bothered me; how can we fix it for the betterment of the child?" His perspective on discipline is that it's not to punish a deed, it's to assist them towards a productive and Godly maturity (it's for their "profit").

This has worked very well for us for several months.


My minor children are DS15, DD16 and DD17. They are all but grown and are rarely home. They are busy with school activities and their jobs. They function as miniature adults with my house as a home-base.

My job of "raising" them is all but done; at their ages I am more mentor than authority, although I do have to pull the authority card sometimes. Thankfully they are overall respectful and caring children.

DS15 is completely comfortable with the blending, and looking forward to our wedding occasion.

The girls still grieve that their I didn't have this beautiful relationship they're witnessing today with their dad. That is the only reason for the measured/slower integration into the blending.

I do not believe the integration will drag on for 18 months. We are planning to slowly ramp it up. However, because my children are used to being home alone for long stretches of time, are trustworthy (and are left with cars and credit cards for gas/groceries), and because DS21 also lives in my home, I am comfortable being gone to visit him several nights a week, regularly.

His spending Thurs/Fri/Sat nights at my house my spending Wed at his (4 nights per week together) is the worst case scenario at the start, if even. I may well be able to spend Tues/Wed at his house.

He is not able to move down to my home until he finds another job anyway, which could be weeks or months after our wedding. The job he has right now is not conducive to telecommuting.

This does not sound like a situation in which you two need to live apart.

I would agree. I started reading his needs her needs for parents recently and the chapter on mixed families warns that it is hard, but doable as long as POJA is followed. it sounds like you have POJA'ed this living apart situation; however, there is risk whenever you live apart, especially in a new situation. So, I would contact Dr. H.

Ok, Prisca.

I just sent the email to Dr. & Joyce Harley regarding exposure of 2001 event and the transitional integration on the new marriage.


Thank you and all the other forum contributors that cared enough to "hound" me into doing this.

I will let you know when I hear back.

I would love to agree with you!

But the girls have said if we get married they will move out? Do you see another angle that I don't see?

Why do they want to move out? Where would they go?

They have said they would move in with their dad (my xH) if my fiance comes to live in our house full time.

What are you planning to do after your wedding in the fall? Be married but live in different houses?

That isn't exposure Sunny! That's telling a few key people a secret. Where is the public exposure?

If he were jailed or a known pedophile the girls wouldn't be able to live there ever. And other girls would be safe. I know that weighs on you.

I don't think Dr H can recommend a separation-marriage,but I think he may have some alternatives for you.

Kind of. He would stay with me 3 nights a week, and I would stay with him at least 1 night a week.

We would gradually increase his presence in my home as the girls acclimate, and after he could find a job in my area. His job is 110 miles away from my home.

He is staying with me already 3 nights a week (chaperoned by my adult children who live here and we don't sleep together)and the girls have become OK with that.

The kids are also OK if I am away for a night. Sometimes I visit family out of state and they choose not to come, or sometimes I have business travel and leave the kids home alone by themselves for up to a week at a time.

I wouldn't choose to just live away from them all week every week and leave them to an parent-free home because they are still kids, even if they are pretty grown up.

Pushing the integration beyond what it is now will upset the girls, but we may be able to do it gradually. They have nothing against my fiance personally; what they have expressed sounds more like grieving/loyalty to their dad.

We could just put off the wedding for 18 months until DD16 graduates from high school, but we are ready for it now. We would rather have this schedule as husband/wife than fiance/fiancee.

I look forward to Dr. Harley's reply. I will post it when received.

I asked him about both the exposure and the marital integration.

Dr. Harley's answer on the exposure of 2001 event:

"Regarding your ex-husband's situation, what evidence do you have that he did this? Did the girl tell you about it? Unless there is proof beyond your husband�s admission (which he could now deny), I wouldn�t mention it to the girls. I would, however, encourage your husband to tell the girls about it, so that they don�t hear it from someone else years from now. He probably won�t tell them, and a few years from now, you might tell them yourself. But I wouldn�t worry about the effect that it would have on the girls if they were to find out about it. My perspective on truth is that as painful as it is sometimes, it�s always worth having."


I replied to say my proof (other than my xH's admission) was when the police came to the door. I interrupted my xH's cooperation with the police and insisted he hire an attorney, which saved him from going to jail.


I did not include this in my reply, but upon reflection xH could still deny all of that. I don't have the police reports or any physical proof.

If that changes anything, I will update.

With respect to the slow marital integration, Dr. Harley's answer focused on my children and to not move my fiance into my home as my husband if it hurts them.

I replied for some clarification on the harm in marrying now (as we are not ready to wait an additional 18 months) and living separate until then.

I can't date my fiance until June 2017 and still remain true to my values; further, arranging chaperones, etc when I go visit him is not going to be workable for another 2 years.

Will update you on his reply.

What did he actually say?

I will post his further response upon his reply.

My follow up is that, if we remove the blended family component from the equation (by not blending the family), we still want to marry now and live separately until DD16 (junior in high school) graduates.

Also, my girls like him and don't resent that we are dating; they just said if he moves in they will move out. They have expressed they wish my relationship with their dad could have been as beautiful as they observe my relationship with my fiance to be.

According to my faith and MB, and I heartily agree with both, SF is not a good idea prior to marriage. Our relationship is at the level where we are ready to be buyers, not only for SF, but in all of the other ways buyers relate to each other. It would be very emotionally draining for me (and him) to wait 2 years to marry.

Also, it's time to stop worrying about maintaining a good example of dating boundaries for the children (chaperones, etc). We are ready to move beyond that.


Dr. Harley initial email comment:
"My general advice regarding remarriage after divorce is to make sure that the children are in enthusiastic agreement with the plan. If there is any hesitation, I don�t recommend it, regardless of how much in love the couple are. The couple can continue their relationship until the children are on their own, and marry then. Blended families (marriage after divorce with children), and notoriously fragile, and children often become very jealous of their parent�s time and attention. As a parent watches her children suffer after such a marriage, it inevitably ruins the marriage itself as well as the children.

In your case, since your children are just beginning to overcome the trauma of your divorce, and have expressed resentment regarding the relationship you have with your friend, I would encourage you not to have him live with you, even for one night. Your daughters� mental health, and emotional recovery should be your highest priority right now. You should maintain your relationship with him, but not have him live with you, because having him there contributes to their suffering. If I were he, I would begin looking for work in your city now so that he could be near you. You could commit yourselves to marriage now and then actually marry when your daughters have left your home."

It doesn't make sense that your girls like your fiance, but they will move out if you get married and he moves in.

Waiting 18 months is not going to hurt you in the long run. It will probably make your marriage more likely to succeed.

Dr Harley said the children need to be in enthusiastic agreement. Obviously they aren't or they wouldn't be telling you they will move out if he moves in.

They are friendly and cordial to him now, voluntarily engage him in conversations such as telling them about their game or showing him their fingernail art and explaining to him how they did it.

All of my children joined me (and him) for Mother's Day in my home and we had a great day, with the girls being very engaged in the interaction (and REALLY appreciating that he jumped up to initiate the dishes afterwards).

The discomfort is the idea of having a live-in step dad, and living with our beautiful relationship while wishing it could have been with their dad. They are now realizing how empty their parents' marriage always has been, seemingly rewriting their rosy memories of having been raised in a happy home with this new perspective.

Which is why the initial plan was for him to not move in.

Dr. Harley affirmed that instinct, and I agree with Dr. Harley.

That is a separate issue from being married, though.

Although MB's standard position is no nights apart after marriage, not living together has worked for some step families, per Dr. Harley. I can see it's not ideal for a marriage, but it may be our best option, and it is only short term.

I don't see where he told you to get married but live separately. I think he told you to wait.

18 months is not going to kill you.
Markos and I waited 16 months and stayed celibate. Markos parents waited 5 years. It can be done, and will be the best chance for your marriage to survive.

I noticed you "spin" when you don't want to follow MB advice and give these long lengthy posts as to why the advice somehow does not apply to you...like in the case of remaining in contact with your ex because you believe it's "cordial".

That's not a reason to remain in contact and have regular interactions with him. There is NO benefit to doing this - only risk of negative consequences with your new relationship and with your children.

In my parallel parenting post (which I have quoted for you) when the situation between the parents is in conflict, it is not healthy for the children to do this. You've already told us he is "bitter" and exposing an imaginary affair to hurt you. And this has already resulted in a bad experience for your children.

Of course you are free to ignore the advice you are given here, but let's call a spade a spade. You are choosing to reject MB advice and follow Plan Sunnytimes.

What are you talking about? It could not be more clear:

He was this way, but then after my commenting on that, he completely changed. He saw it affected DD17 and that he was causing it.

Now he behaves much differently, and he made a point of turning that corner by inviting the children and I out to a dinner at Cheesecake Factory, all together, some months ago so they could see he and I interacting nicely and help them put that behind them.

The children have enthusiastically requested "family" times which include both of us such as their birthday dinner, or events at DS24's home.

He behaves very nicely at those times now. He also loans his vehicles to my household when the girls are needing to be in separate places at separate times or in other ways makes his support of my household visible.

We now have a friendly and cordial interaction, almost like that of a cousin or such.

I don't invite him into my home or seek out interactions with him. However, when there are interactions due to the children there is no longer any tension.

So that's why at this point I think a Plan B idea would harm the kids more than going along as-is now. You can see in their demeanor that they really enjoy "family" cordiality and events together.

In fact, there is some HOA commotion in my subdivision and he very firmly supported me in front of the kids, loaning his pickup to me for landscaping errands.

So, tension with him was a huge problem for a while but is no longer a problem.

The awful email he circulated that I referenced earlier in this thread was sent out while the tension was still on going (Feb?).

The quote in its entirety does leave more of a door open in my interpretation than in yours:

"My general advice regarding remarriage after divorce is to make sure that the children are in enthusiastic agreement with the plan. If there is any hesitation, I don�t recommend it, regardless of how much in love the couple are. The couple can continue their relationship until the children are on their own, and marry then. Blended families (marriage after divorce with children), and notoriously fragile, and children often become very jealous of their parent�s time and attention. As a parent watches her children suffer after such a marriage, it inevitably ruins the marriage itself as well as the children.

In your case, since your children are just beginning to overcome the trauma of your divorce, and have expressed resentment regarding the relationship you have with your friend, I would encourage you not to have him live with you, even for one night."


Dr. Harley provided his supporting reasons to his advice, which we have abated by not blending the families.

My follow up is since we have abated that, we still want to get married and live separately - without him spending the night here.


It's easy to SAY don't get married, but not doing so would be a huge emotional drain on me. Our relationship is just at that point.

We spend well over 15 hours per week together so even though we have dated for 8 months, our relationship seems to be far beyond that in maturity. We've reached the point where it is just time to be married.

You do realize that any such interactions will put a strain on any future marriage. All the more reason to wait.

Then listen to someone who did it for 16 months. Markos and I managed to do so, and no one could have possibly been more eager or ready to get married than we were.

It is not impossible to wait 18 months. You are just telling yourself it is.

8 months is too soon to marry without all the complicated issues you face. If you are concerned that you will succumb to temptation, do not be alone together.

That is highly commendable!!! I am really impressed you were able to do that.


It has been my experience that dating/bonding after having been married for 25 years is quite different, though.

If this was a traditional first-time relationship I think we wouldn't have connected and bonded as quickly. This relationship has just been beyond amazing from Day 1; we are so perfect for each other in so many ways.

Our relationship has seemed to be lifted up on wings of its own that my heart cannot control. It's hard to describe in words.

We just simply can't maintain a renter mindset or our celibacy for another 2 years. We are ready to be buyers.

And, it is emotionally draining now already to be in such a wonderful relationship that is pending, pending although we are ready for closure.

Would you accept your daughter telling you she has to marry a man she meet a few months ago because she can't resist sex?

If there is any strain or preference otherwise from my new husband, I stop attending them and we celebrate separately.

If my new husband is not welcome to attend, I don't either.

It really doesn't matter what we, your children, or Dr. Harley says, does it? You are going to rush into marriage #2 barely more (less?) than a year after divorce #1. Who you are still in contact with.

Sunnytimes, let us know if you are interested in MB!

That's not what I have said, though. That is only a small part of it.

Our relationship is very beautiful and is just at that point where we are ready to get married. I am ready for to remove the pendancy and become a buyer.

SF is only a part of it, and the greater element of that is we are tired of arranging chaperones, etc. and not being able to travel together.

No, because you have been married before, you take it even slower.

Being married before doesn't give you special powers to know everything about a person at an accelerated rate.

It is beautiful now. But it is of short enough duration that he could be fooling you. Wait. Get to know each other better.

That's only a small part of it.

The greater part is that our relationship is just ready for marriage. It's hard to describe; it's something you just feel/know.

18 months is not going to hold any of that back for that long. It's a short time, relatively speaking.


This is not MB. Do not put your new marriage through this.

Have you even done a background check on this guy?

If you wait 18 months, you will have still only known this man for about 2 years.

If morality is only a small part of it, then there really isn't that big a need to rush things.

Been there, done that. Still waited 16 months.

Sunny, Dr H hasn't found a way for marriages to survive nights apart. He tried with the military. He told you to maintain a dating relationship until you can spend your nights together.


Dr H doesn't leave things 'open to interpretation'. He says it flat out.

You cannot have contact with previous lovers and have anything close to a good marriage.

Why are you trying to normalize your children's interaction with a Child Molester??

This is like saying "I'll look at porn, as long as my wife is enthusiastic, and I'll stop if there's any strain or preference."

Some things can be enthusiastically agreed to by husband and wife but are still a bad idea for marriage:

* Alcohol or drug abuse
* Porn usage
* Opposite sex friends
* Swinging
* Jumping off a cliff
* Family lunch dates with ex spouses

I'm glad at least you are not experiencing obvious pain any more - but why did you walk through that fire just to gain a cordial cousin?

I mean sure the kids like it - but they've been taught to regard buddy divorces as normal - and who's running the show anyway?. I wonder how likely they will be in the future to cut off an abusive man. It sounds like they think you aren't supposed to.

Markos, your statement is pretty harsh.

Dr. Harley's advice regarding this was pasted a few pages back. In his advice directly to me this morning regarding this, he wrote:

"Regarding your ex-husband's situation, what evidence do you have that he did this? Did the girl tell you about it? Unless there is proof beyond your husband�s admission (which he could now deny), I wouldn�t mention it to the girls. I would, however, encourage your husband to tell the girls about it, so that they don�t hear it from someone else years from now. He probably won�t tell them, and a few years from now, you might tell them yourself. But I wouldn�t worry about the effect that it would have on the girls if they were to find out about it. My perspective on truth is that as painful as it is sometimes, it�s always worth having."

Dr. Harley did not tell you to take your girls on dinner dates with this man.

Nowhere in Marriage Builders is this advised.

I can't see any reason at all after Steubenville's behavior for you to continue a relationship with him.

The fact that you are tells me that he must still have a very high balance in his account in your Love Bank. You are looking at him through some extremely rosy colored glasses.

This man is a child molester. I feel bad to keep bringing that trauma up over and over again, but women despise child molesters. Unless they are in love with them.

Continued contact with a man who has a high balance in your love bank is very dangerous for any future marriage.

Does your fiance know that your ex-husband molested a teen girl?

...lol, Ok markos. I appreciate the humorous delivery of the message.

I want to please the kids, yet I don't particularly enjoy xH being a part of family lunch dates.

This will not be hard for me to eliminate. I can do that.

He didn't tell me to curtail their relationship, or even that exposure of the incident was a priority at this time.

I think your ex-H really did a number on you, and that eliminating contact with him will be very healthy for you and for a new marriage. And I also think that you eliminating contact with him is healthy for your children even if they have to or choose to have continued contact with him.

None of that has anything to do with your continued contact and DATES with him.

You do not have to have contact with him like this in order for the girls to see him. It's not an either/or thing. Susie has told you that numerous times.

Because exposure is the most basic part of the program.

If you are sure Dr. Harley isn't advocating exposure, why don't you ask him?

Think about that for a minute.

Just like a couple can enthusiastically agree to something that is bad for their marriage, everybody knows that not everything kids are enthusiastic about is good for them.

You would probably judge me harshly if I wanted to please my kids and so I gave them nothing to eat but donuts, or if I wanted to please my kids so I did not make them do their math homework, or if I wanted to please my kids so I let my teenage girls have overnights with their boyfriends.

Yes we want happy kids but that is no reason to agree to something that's not healthy, like continued contact with your ex. You need to recover from your marriage, and to do that you need to get away from this man. That is what will help ensure your kids' long term happiness, more than anything: a healthy mother.

Taking Prisca and the kids out on fun family events is how I won her heart again when she was reluctant about our marriage. It's a great strategy for an ex husband to make love bank deposits, too. You want to avoid letting your ex husband make love bank deposits, almost at all cost! BTW, it's also a great strategy that predators use.

You are robbing your daughters of information they need to protect themselves. They need to know their dad is a child molester.

Aren't they close in age to the girl he molested ?

Yes, my fiance knows the whole story.

I have been on the watch for any inklings of any deposits coming back to life in a love account with xH due to my exposure to MB, but there is simply NO way I want any part of my futile past life back. I don't find xH physically attractive anymore and I'm not at all attracted to his personality or the way he likes to converse, etc etc.

I have no problem not seeing him anymore, but I hate to make a big deal of implementing a dark Plan B in the kids' lives. I think that would distress them.

I have never been happier in all of my adult life, and people who knew me from before continuously comment that I am just glowingly happy since the divorce. I don't want any part of a relationship with xH back.

I did despise that about him, and even though at the time I felt I had not choice but to remain married (how dumb was that), I didn't respect him anymore. I still don't.

Until you've done that, you're really not ready to get married again.

Thank you for the encouragement! It's hard to be clobbered all at once with so many posts, so I appreciate this one a lot!

:-)

It's really impossible for anyone to be objective about that. That's not how the Love Bank works.

We can see the inklings.

This man also gaslit you for a very long time.

Then stop all contact, because like it or not, he's making deposits.

I was also on the watch for any deposits from markos back when I hated him. He still snuck his way in, by doing just what you are doing with your ex.

You don't control what makes lovebank deposits. The only way to prevent it is to cut off contact completely.

This is why Dr. Harley tells people to never see or talk to previous lovers when they are married.

I think you are right. xH did do a number on me. He was a very strong minded, strong spoken person who didn't care for me very much any time his way was not convenient for me during our marriage.

And 25 years was a long time for that until this MB forum taught me there were options rather than just taking it.

My fiance has been so opposite. When I realized our relationship could be very beautiful together, I made the choice to be emotionally vulnerable, i.e. not hold back or sugar coat feelings, but to just put out there how I feel about things, or not hide flaws about me, etc.. I decided I wanted to know before marriage if I could trust him with my heart and soul instead of learning I couldn't afterwards.

He has treasured me and my interests equal to or almost greater than his own, never once playing advantage on any vulnerability. He has only extended extraordinary care and good will in every way.

I've experienced something very wonderful in this relationship that could not be more starkly opposite of that marriage. I've grown to trust my fiance with my heart and soul as every day he proves more and more that he has no instinct or desire to hurt me or be self centered whatsoever.

He is also a natural POJA-er. He approaches every situation as to how it can be enthusiastically resolved instead of how he can win.

Thank you for sharing that.

I do not want any love deposits from him whatsoever.

But x's have to see each other at family events/child exchanges, etc unless a very dark Plan B is implemented which is not always needed, right?

What limitations are you advising, practically speaking?

Because of your horrible marriage you are incredibly vulnerable to a man who cares for you in the least.

But you sound like you don't actually care about really doing MB.

OK. Thank you for pointing this out.

You are right on the gas lighting. I chose to be treated that way because I didn't see a way out.

I have a question out to your wife on what the practical boundaries of seeing him (child exchanges, weddings, etc) are short of a dark plan B, which doesn't seem to be needed for everyone in divorce on these boards - just those who's x's are harassing.

So does he value you enough to wait for you?

I did ask him. His email to me this morning is quoted verbatim in my response above.

OK. I don't want that. I will stop the dinner "date" stuff.

Thank you for persistently pointing this out.

There is a police report though. Why don't you get it? Dr. Harley is advocating PROVABLE exposure. Have you even tried?

Yes, he would. He has always said our relationship is for "us" and has been very respectful of my timing.

We mutually just don't want to wait. I would find it very emotionally draining. Once a relationship is at a certain point, waiting is academic. I just don't feel the need to wait.

That's why we thought delaying a full integration would address both the girls' discomfort with having a step-dad living in their home, but also meet our needs to enjoy our relationship as buyers. By this I don't specifically mean SF, I mean the full scope of companionship and connection that comes along with a buyer relationship. We are ready for that now, and waiting for 2 years just doesn't feel necessary if we have addressed the needs of the girls.

For example, I just received a call from a DD16 and asked her about her plans. At this time, my fiance spends 2 - 3 nights a week in my home (chaperoned by my adult children) and we do not sleep together. This week he has tomorrow off so he had planned to arrive tonight instead of tomorrow. DD16 was listing her plans and then I let her know that fiance would be here today instead of tomorrow. She was not distressed at all and said "OK" with warmness and cordiality.

They are ok with us seeing each other, and they like him. They are OK with him visiting for the weekends. They just don't want a stepdad living in their home for the reasons described previously.

You can't really have that if you are not living together.

Good point, apples.

This demonstrates some super cloudy thinking on your part.

You are divorced. There is nothing to be done about that, period. That's REALITY. Making your children face a basic reality regardless of whether they like it or not is not harmful to them.

When they want you and your ex to get together and play happy family it is also because they have hope you two to get back together. That's not uncommon for kids of divorce. Why would you perpetuate that?

Very cloudy thinking.

And you are just as wrong about that as every other poster who has been here saying why they can't, won't, or shouldn't Plan B.

It's like you have an alien parasite in you that is fighting against the treatment that would destroy it.

Your kids need a mom who is not alien infested. Your ex husband put it there and you can only get it out by cutting off contact with this child molesting perp.


My kids enjoy it so it must be good for them!

My wife said porn was okay with her, so it must be great for our marriage!

I think I'll feed the kids Pillsbury icing for breakfast tomorrow morning

Ok, can I say something here? You talk about your very nearly adult (by your description) children, as if they are helpless infants. I find it (personally) absurd that they wouldn't be able to "handle" having their stepdad living in their home. You will not be buyers until you are living together FULL TIME. A marriage certificate does not make you buyers. Your "children" are fully old enough to handle a stepfather in their lives. Who is the parent here? You are letting nearly adult children who will only be in your house another 18 months at MOST rule over you like they are little dictators! Either WAIT until they are out of the house to marry, or move him in upon marriage.

That is quite wrong.

To those girls, this is a strange man moving in to their home. He will see them in their dressing gowns and be just across the hall while they sleep.

A relationship between a young adult girls and a man who moves into their home is fraught with problems.

A stepfather is not a father, and there is no reason why they should feel comfortable with him.

Did you see Dr Harley's advice?

If ST does not follow it, most likely she will damage her relationship with her children AND have a troubled 2nd marriage.

Dr Harley's advice was entirely to protect the children, if they are not enthusiastic about the marriage. He did not say they need to get over it. He said that they had suffered a trauma with the divorce, and their mental health needs to be protected.

Here is what he wrote:

"My general advice regarding remarriage after divorce is to make sure that the children are in enthusiastic agreement with the plan. If there is any hesitation, I don�t recommend it, regardless of how much in love the couple are. The couple can continue their relationship until the children are on their own, and marry then. Blended families (marriage after divorce with children), and notoriously fragile, and children often become very jealous of their parent�s time and attention. As a parent watches her children suffer after such a marriage, it inevitably ruins the marriage itself as well as the children.

In your case, since your children are just beginning to overcome the trauma of your divorce, and have expressed resentment regarding the relationship you have with your friend, I would encourage you not to have him live with you, even for one night. Your daughters� mental health, and emotional recovery should be your highest priority right now. You should maintain your relationship with him, but not have him live with you, because having him there contributes to their suffering. If I were he, I would begin looking for work in your city now so that he could be near you. You could commit yourselves to marriage now and then actually marry when your daughters have left your home."

That is entirely the opposite of what you just wrote.

Be careful to follow Dr Harley's advice when you advise another poster.

Sunnytimes, after everything you have said about your convictions, I am quite surprised you have let a man you are not married to live in your home. Are you feeling pressure to marry right away because you have already broken your own moral code?

Wounded - these girls are still minors in her home. Their care is more important than their mother's new boyfriend. (If she was in her 20s and had little kids, would you advocate the same?) Bringing a man into the house is a great risk to them. They should not be subjected to this. He is not her husband. This is not the same as a nuclear family and the children have every right to voice their concerns. It is not rebellion, it is safety.

There were also some red flags concerning this man's relationship with his own children. If those concerns were not resolved, these teenagers may be protecting their mother as well as themselves. Sometimes we under estimate the intelligence of our children.

Sunny you are really good at this stuff with other people - apply your MB knowledge to yourself. You DO have rather warm, cordial feelings for him which make objective onlookers like us rather aghast. You don't talk about him like a wayward or paedophile when he is both.

Romantic love happens overnight. Dr H says you 'wake up one day'. Usually it's with someone you've chosen to date but sometimes it's someone you have been stuck with - co-worker or ex spouse. Sometimes people make the ghastly misjudgment of deciding they 'don't find them attractive' and deciding it's safe. Hence why almost ALL APs are uggos and losers. You are more at risk of this in a dodgy marriage such as the one you propose, in which you will be separated.

Your ex is the only man in the world who can make FC deposits. It's quite obvious he is and you appreciate it. That is on top of the fact you once loved him enough to marry! There is a reason why Dr H says NO contact with former lovers!

You're headed for disaster because you'd rather bend over backwards to please your kids. No they shouldn't have to have personal contact with a man they aren't comfortable with BUT NEITHER SHOULD YOU.

Please talk to yourself the way you talk to other posters!

My apologies. I saw it as he's already staying in their home 3-4 nights a week? Did I read that wrong? Regardless, she isn't planning on following Dr Harley's advice but I see where my thoughts conflict with his.

Thank you for your comments, but please don't speak for me.

I usually only comment where I can see one spouse has been perpetrating a pattern of verbal abuse because I can pick up on their mindset instinctively (having been under it for 25 years). xH's or former partners are not my forte, and I usually don't comment on them - but it is definitely yours and I appreciate your advice.


You, Prisca and markos have been very patient in pointing this out. I get it now!

Your point about him being the only one able to deposit FC really caught my attention too. As you may have noticed (!) my children are very dear to my heart.

I never want to go back towards any romantic relationship with my xH. I think 25 years of empty apologies and abuse was enough.

Thank you, indiegirl.

He does not live in my home, I have not broken my moral code and I do not feel under any pressure to get married.

Which is one of many reasons I know this man is a keeper! :-)

Also, one quick update regarding the girls:

Last night a conversation about my fiance came up with DD16 that made my day (made my week!).

In the conversation, I admitted I had formally accepted his proposal of marriage a few weeks ago. She smiled and chuckled and said "We are not blind. We know!" and gave me a hug.

I told her that utmost in our planning was caring for her and her sister's emotional health and comfort. She said she didn't mind if my fiance "lived" in her home at least as often as he comes to visit now, or if I went to visit him during the week.

I can't express how immensely and pleasantly surprised I was because several months ago she had expressed surliness at the idea of him being here after we were married, so at that time I had quickly let it drop with assurances that I want her to be comfortable.

She expressed her desire to live with her dad for part or all of her senior year is because she feels so bad that he lives alone without any of them, and she wants him to be able to be with kids, too. She emphasized that if she did that, it wouldn't have anything to do with my fiance (or if then, husband), but because she is feeling bad for her dad. This is completely not how she had said it several months ago!

SO!! This is an encouraging turn of events, and means that only my DD17, who is a senior this year, may still have some reservations about an integration. I haven't spoken to her about it in a while (don't want to push her into agreeing to something she doesn't want).

I'll watch for an opportunity to test the waters with DD17 in a month or two if I continue to see the positive attitude she currently displays towards my fiance.

Dr. Harley's advice was against blending the families with a marriage if the children had any reservations. The reservations may be shorter lived than I had previously thought.

Sunny, I'm rereading what Dr. Harley said to you:


Dr. Harley said not to tell your girls unless there is proof.

But I'm reading elsewhere on this thread that there is a police report.

So tell the girls, and give them the police report.

Quit letting the girls feel sorry for their child molesting Dad. TELL your daughters about this, because they are making mistakes like planning to go live with him without having all of the facts.

I'm going to stay on this, Sunny, and I'm asking all the other posters on this thread to please join me and do the same. You are not acting like this man kissed a nude teen girl, but he did.

Everybody with me, now: When will you be showing your daughters the police report, Sunny?

DITTO!

Yup!

When?

I'd like to know, as well.

I don't believe this is a coincidence and I don't think Dr Harley would either. When you just so happen to mention that you want this marriage to happen and will wait for the kids to be gone to move him in....your DD coincidentally mentions she would like to live with her dad full time? Yet everything is happy and great? I am not buying it. I think she is trying to make you happy.

ST, you are going to damage your relationship with your daughters because you are soo determined to make this marriage happen ASAP.

Same here.

I have a feeling ST is going to be very much opposed to this idea now, because she will not want to give her DD a reason to not want to move in with her father. Sigh.

Is it supposed to be a coincidence that the post about this went ignored?

Me as well.

If I was your DD16 and feeling sorry for my dad and thinking I will go live with him and this whole time my mom knew and had evidence of some very disturbing information. I would wonder why she never told me when she had proof the whole time.

This comment is very ugly.

I have never thought such a thing.

A life's lesson I learned some time ago was that you can not guess another's thoughts. You can observe behaviors but thinking nasty things about people like this is wasted time because it is simply a wild a##ed, made-up guess.

Your guess fell far off the mark and is mean.

This is quite a pile up based on something I never said.

There is a police report but I DON'T HAVE IT. Never did. I have never read it.

His attorneys even told him that he could not talk to me about what happened in case the police question me but he told me "everything" - what he said was everything, anyway. They told me that to save his tail from jail I had to stay out of it.

Now, I wish I had requested a copy of that report. I don't know if they would even have a 15 year old report or if they would give it to me because it references a minor. I don't know.

There IS a police report out there - or was. In answer to Dr. Harley's question - how do I know for sure - I know for sure because of police involvement and because of the money I had to spend on attorneys. He could simply deny it because I currently have NOTHING to show for my allegations other than his knowledge that I am telling the truth.

Contrary to all of your pile-ons, Dr. Harley did not express the repulsed urgency that you all have expressed. While I know it happened, I don't have any evidence to prove to anyone that it did.

I will follow Dr. Harley's advice on the matter.

You could request the report. Just see if it goes anywhere.

Did Dr. Harley know your daughter was considering move in with the x?

Guys/gals, I appreciate your good intentions, but there are a lot of comments in my thread that are just plain hater-mean.

Apples has a way to assume/accuse negatives in most of her posts that are simply not true and SusieQ's comment was out of line nasty; there are numerous other comments that assume/accuse as well.

We may be strangers over the internet, but I am a person and I have feelings.

Beyond that, much of the advice is based on assumptions you are making that are simply not true.

I will follow Dr. Harley's advice regarding exposure which he personally extended to my specific situation.

You are reading tone into my text that isn't there.

Well, for example:



He doesn't.

'Have you even' read my my comments? When he visits he stays the night only with other adult chaperones in the house, and we sleep separately.



'Have you even' read my comments? They were quite clear that we were not having sex.




Yes, but nice way to assume I hadn't.

None of which conveys tone.

Sunny,

At the end of the day, you are jumping into one marriage when the last one isn't even cold.

You are NOT putting your children as a priority, despite telling yourself otherwise. You talk about all your children like they are grown adults with their own lives, but they are NOT. They are teenagers, not adults, right? But you treat them like adults because it suits YOUR goal.

They are being forced to suck up and deal with this. You don't want to slow do or stop this, and nothing they say or do will change that.

Enough already, I can't even. This thread is all about you and what you want. You only see and read what you want.

Dr. Harley specifically said not to marry him and to let your kids heal. That isn't this, no matter how much you twist it to suit your goal.

Good luck to you, Sunny. Out of the pan and into the fire. The reason everyone here is "mean" is because you are talking like a selfish 12 yo with a crush, when you are a grown woman barely divorced with kids. Knock it off already and start using your head!

Not true. That's why I had decided he shouldn't move into my home and contemplated married with the step-family not blending, per Dr. Harley's own advice in some blended situations. I got that idea from Dr. Harley's own article; it wasn't something I came up with.

On this board many have piled on with comments like this, however.


Quite the contrary, alis. At no point was I planning to shove a blending down their throats, and no where in my thread did I say so.

That is why Dr. Harley's advice in another situation about a marriage that kept the families unblended until they were out of the house was intriguing.




Dr. Harley's advice is excerpted as follows; his comments on deferring the marriage were directed at the girls not experiencing the blending.

This is my life, I am living it. It's easy for you to just proclaim your own interpretation and get mean. However, the subtle distinction means a lot to me, and deeply/daily affects me for the next two years.

I don't understand the pile on in the comments when I said that I was awaiting Dr. Harley's clarification.

Why not just let him clarify and not prejudge what he would say? His advice on exposure was FAR different than what even seasoned posters were vigorously demanding.

"In your case, since your children are just beginning to overcome the trauma of your divorce, and have expressed resentment regarding the relationship you have with your friend, I would encourage you not to have him live with you, even for one night. Your daughters� mental health, and emotional recovery should be your highest priority right now. You should maintain your relationship with him, but not have him live with you, because having him there contributes to their suffering. If I were he, I would begin looking for work in your city now so that he could be near you. "

Because it was clear in my email to Dr. Harley we would not live together prior to marriage, his comments do not seem as if an unblended marriage is OFF the table, although they are very clear to not force blending on the girls.

As mentioned previously, I have followed up with him for clarification of his advice.

Dr. Harley's comments are quite a bit more gracious than those of most contributors on this board. I don't just mean his tone is nicer, I mean he is quite a bit less black-and-white.


This is mean.

I have already said earlier that I was awaiting Dr. Harley's follow up email for clarification on his advice. But you say things like this anyway.

I don't see how any of these posters can possibly help you if you are unwilling to see how your own actions are perceived, and you are going to twist words to suit your purpose. Consider the "pile-on" as being people trying to give your head a shake.

YOU asked the question "... how fast is too fast?" and the resounding answer is "this is too damn fast!!!" but you just don't want to hear it. I have no idea why you need "clarification", his post was very clear, although it does not agree with you.

You've posted here long enough to know what when all the vets "pile on" and are mean, it is because the poster is doing something foolish and doesn't want to hear it. "Mean" is code for "you don't agree with me". Unless you are unique and nobody understands.

But you can GET the police report, Sunnytimes. You are a smart woman and I know you know this. Dr Harley's only objection to this was that you didn't have proof and your H would just deny it. Your daughters are at risk as long as they don't know the truth. Why do that to them?

Again, I am awaiting Dr. Harley's clarification.

Although Dr. Harley's advice did not suggest that exhausting all means to obtain evidence now was imperative or urgent, to answer your question I will call the police dept today and ask for a copy of the report.

I will be very surprised if it is accessible, but Melody I respect your kind advice and will see if it is.

I think the you are the one being mean to your DD.

Dr Harley did not say anything about sitting your children down and having a conversation with them basically telling them you would be delaying your happiness and marriage until they were out of the house. And then having your DD move in with your ex? And then not even protect her and your other DD (and their friends for that matter) by getting that police report.

I don't think you are thinking clearly.

Police reports are typically a matter of public record under the Freedom of Information Act. Although you did not correct Dr. Harley's wrong assumption about proof, I hope that you do follow through and get the report. I have no doubt Dr Harley assumed, like I did, that there was no proof and no way to get it. There is no reason to delay telling your daughters.

Nor I did not tell her this. Nor did her feedback perceive she thought I did.



What are you talking about? I'm not having her move in with my xH. I didn't ask her to do this and would miss her tremendously if she chose to.




Dr. Harley has spoken quite clearly on this and I am following his advice which was provided personally to me, based on the specifics of my situation, on this matter.

He did not suggest or advise that I disrupt their relationship with their dad at all. Your advice and position is different than Dr. Harley's.

I followed up to let him know I did have certain knowledge that it occurred (it wasn't just something that was alleged by the girl - hesaidshesaid) and asked that if that changed anything to please let me know.

To date, he has not replied. When he does, I will be sure to follow his advice.

I will follow Melody's suggestion and place a call to the PD, although Dr. Harley did not express that it was urgent/imperative for me to exhaust all resources to obtain proof.

I followed up to let him know I did have certain knowledge that it occurred (it wasn't just something that was alleged by the girl - hesaidshesaid) and asked that if that changed anything to please let me know.

I don't have evidence, but I have certain knowledge.

He did advise me to delay telling them. He said to encourage my xH to tell them and if he didn't, in a few years to tell them myself.

ITA.

If you were to tell Dr Harley that after getting his advice, you had a conversation with your DD that ended in her tellin you she was going to go live with her dad but that, no really, she is thrilled with your new marriage and this has nothing to do with that - he is going to reiterate his advice to you to not to get married, and he will probably emphasize the fact that you need to focus on your relationship with your DD.

I know this because I have had my own communications with Dr Harley regarding my 19 yr old DD. He is very much (as you have already seen from his advice to you) an advocate on keeping a close intact relationship even with teen and almost grown children. He would be alarmed that your DD now wants to move out. I can guarantee it.

If you don't slow down and start thinking clearly, you are going to end up damaging your relationship with your kids, damaging them and also with a troubled 2nd marriage.

You are just telling yourself people are "mean" because you don't want to hear it.

Let's be honest. He did not speak "clearly" because you left him with a wrong assumption. You can't say he spoke clearly when you didn't give him all the facts. You let him wrongly assume that there was no proof leading him to give advice based on that wrong information.


Why would Dr Harley say any such thing if was under the impression that there was no evidence available? His advice was given on the basis of a FALSE ASSUMPTION that you did not bother to correct until prompted here.

Your post assumes a lot.

From the outset of the separation, this DD wanted to live with my xH because she felt sorry that he was alone.

I managed to keep her primary residence with me because I wanted it.

You'll just have to trust that I know my daughter, and that I understood her reactions/intent in that conversation. And that I am smart enough not to position/imply to her that if she would just hurry up and move out it would make me happy. Additionally, that is not true.

I would be very sad if she moved out, and would miss her tremendously. I don't want to miss a single moment of their teen life, and am hoping that she stays with me after she is done with HS while she attends local college.

Statements that I want her out of the house to expedite a marriage are just false.

"Unless there is proof I wouldn't mention it to the girls...." There actually IS proof, so he advised that you tell the girls. Did you read this, Sunny?

There is your answer from Dr. Harley, right in your own post. So why are you bothering Dr Harley again? Are you hoping to get another answer?

Is there a reason why you are so resistant to telling your daughters?

Dr. Harley's advice to you is to not tell your daughters without proof, so get the proof (police report), and show it to your daughters.

When will you be getting the police report?

This is the entirety of how I described the incident in my email to him. I did not provide any background as to what my evidence was because I was not expecting the reply he gave.

"My xH convinced a minor female (16) to expose herself to him in 2001. He also kissed her. "



Melody, to my recollection, I replied to Dr. Harley with that clarification to his email IMMEDIATELY, even before reporting back to the boards what he said. I will look up the time stamps to confirm if that is important to you.


Follow up information:

He sent me an email at 9:40 a.m. I don't recall how soon after it appeared in my email box that I notice it. My follow up question to him was at 12:30 (noon). So no, I wasn't trying to perpetuate a false assumption with Dr. Harley whatsoever.

When your husband kisses a nude teen, don't save his tail from jail.

I don't need to assume anything.

You got Dr Harley's advice and now your DD is planning to move out.

I can guarantee you with about 99% certainty if Dr Harley knew this he would tell you that you should do whatever you can to keep her with you, even if she "says" she is thrileed with your getting married suddenly.

Stop twisting the issues.

We have been over that at long length Markos.

I can't change anything that happened 15 years ago. I sought MB advice at the time, even and wasn't advised anything like what MB advises today.

When will you be finding out?

Did you read this? Here is the answer you need. And I am pretty sure you didn't email Dr Harley that you might have proof until prompted by the board. Even so, you had no reason to do so because you had the answer all along:

Great, so let's talk about what MB advises today for your daughter who wants to move in with her father who kissed a nude underage girl.

When will you be finding out about that police report?

However, I don't have it!

"Unless there is proof beyond your husband�s admission ..." There is such proof. So now you can tell them.

However, I don't have it! [/quote]

And what are you doing about that?

markos, are you reading my posts? I just told Melody that I would place a call today.

And what are you doing about that? [/quote]

I told you 3 posts ago that I would place a call TODAY to see if I could get it.

I am getting frustrated with the circular posts. It seems like everyone is reacting but no one reads my replies.

So click ignore on them, get the police report, and show your daughters.

I told you 3 posts ago that I would place a call TODAY to see if I could get it.[/quote]

Excellent!


Sorry; I'm trying to catch up and also reply to where you replied to me, but the thread continues to move on before I get there.

It would help if there weren't distractions - stay on topic of getting the police report to your daughters.

Yep - trying to read them in the order they were posted!

OK. Thanks.

Markos, I've always appreciated the no-nonsense but kind advice you provide.

I told you 3 posts ago that I would place a call TODAY to see if I could get it.

I am getting frustrated with the circular posts. It seems like everyone is reacting but no one reads my replies. [/quote]

Good grief, Sunny!! Then why did you say "However I don't have it??" How is that an answer to my point that Dr Harley said "unless there is proof..???"

So, the plan is to get the police report and show your daughters, right? Have you thought about how you will introduce the subject?

Call now. Why are you arguing on this forum when you could be getting this issue taken care of?

Dear sunny I'll give you a little bit of background on my family just so you can understand why I'm so resolved in thinking that you need to get the police report. My mother was molested by a family member as a child. She and her sister both were. They were dropped off everyday by their parents at this person's house. It ruined their wives certainly my certainly my aunt my mother's turn your life around since. My grandparents can barely look at my mother over this. I know they know it's happened because my mother is giving her set testimony many times of how God deliver her from her pain and suffering. But my grandparents are hurt by the fact that they were too drunk when this is how it was happening to realize what was going on and that something was wrong with their children. I would hate for this to happen to you. that's the reason I keep reiterating is because so that there is a possibility. O that this could happen to your girls its horrible and I hope that wouldn't happen with her father. but I would not be able to imagine your pain happened to your girls and there have been anything that you could have done to prevent it.

(I'm dictating on my phone so the grammar is atrocious.)

Are you going to post his response when he sends it?

Could we see what you wrote to him adding additional "clarification" that you thought he needed?

It's really hard for us completely understand the context when people only post a paragraph or only the response without adding the question or email they sent.

Sunny, I see you online. Would you mind posting an answer?

Hi Prisca.

Dr. Harley's followup clearly answered two of the insistent questions from the forum, which are:

- how/if to handle exposure
- whether to disrupt the girls' relationship with their father.

Due to my question/his answer passing in the mail, I'm awaiting clarification to the third question.

I refrained from posting half information here because then it has seemed to generate a flurry of posts which precipitate Dr. Harley's actual advice.

How did he tell you to handle exposure? I know his stance is to expose, but did he have suggestions on how it should be done?

With respect to exposure or disruption to the girls' relationship with their father:




So, no police reports. No disruption of their relationship.

His follow up advice is quite different than the initial, but sometimes a second thought is needed and that's OK.

So, I will follow his amended advice.

Your post crossed my posting of Dr. Harley's emails. Please see answer above.

So you will be telling the girls?

Yes.

I will use the approach he has suggested.

I think it's productive and compassionate.

I'm not sure where you're seeing "no police reports" or "no disruption of their relationship" in there. I'm reading "tell them what he did."

That's exactly what I'm reading as well.

Sorry for jumping in, but I have followed the entire thread.

Are you going to get a copy of the Police Report?

That would prevent the, "He Said - She Said" scenario completely.

Also, Dr. Harley commented that

Quote: Dr. Harley
"Regarding your ex-husband's situation, what evidence do you have that he did this?"
End Quote

It "Seems" as if Dr. Harley was never made aware of the factual availability of the authentic Police Report.

Is that accurate?

Quote: Dr. Harley
"Then you simply tell them the facts starting with the police coming to your door. Tell them that you didn�t want your husband to go to jail, and so encouraged him to hire an attorney who would present the case as a he said � she said situation."
End Quote:

You have the availability to prove beyond a shadow of any doubt the full and accurate details, instead of just Your Word versus His Word.

LTL

So when will you be telling them?

awesome!!

Dr. Harley references in his answer that the police were involved, so he knows as much as I know about a police report.

When police come to someone's door to investigate, I assume there is a police report filed. I am sure Dr. Harley would make the same assumption.

I don't know what "factual availability" and "authentic Police report" adds to this discussion.

I know there must be a police report because police came to my door and asked my xH to come down to the station.

That's all I know about a police report. "Factual"/"authentic report" or possession of same are things I have never represented in my posts.


Dr. Harley gave his advice, followed up with a clarification while KNOWING that police WERE involved, and I am putting the matter to rest in the manner he described I should.

Seriously, I am not trying to just pile on, so please don't take it that way, okay.

You are "Assuming" way too much.

You DO have the right to request the Police Report.

The actual Police Report would dispel any He Said - She Said discrepancies.

Your children would know the truth, with Proven Facts, not just words.

It seems like it would be the right and truthful thing to do.

Everyone can Assume that there is a Police Report, but take away any doubt and get it and use it to back up the facts and your version of what gets truthfully discussed with your children.

LTL

Im confused, where did he say there should be no police report or disruption of their relationship? Im not seeing that at all.

Sunnytimes, I am glad you got clarification from Dr Harley and think you should just move forward. If you feel you need the police report after telling them, you can always explore that option later.

When do you think you'll tell them?

Update?

Update, Sunny?

I worry you are so focused on moving on with #2 husband that you are skipping on important things in your present.

Ive just noticed this thread and will chime in.
As for 2 years, its not as reliable as knowing someone for at least 50 years before marriage...but better than 10 months.
im confused that sunny is getting married in a few months but only divorced since October? How does that add up to 2 years?

This sounds really weird.
Just have sex with the man when the kids are gone.
why would you have them supervise him having overnights in your house 3 times a week?
This doesnt make any sense.

You may not understand Dr. Harleys recommendations.
Regarding remarriage, he only advocates it if the children are enthusiastically in support of it. In your case, you told your daughter you agreed to marry this man weeks ago without even discussing in with her.
She had no say whatsoever and its clear her feelings are not a priority.

LTL is correct. Dr. Harley may tell someone to use the bathroom and not provide details on how to wash their hands afterwards. It doesn't mean the patient shouldnt wash their hands.
The purpose of a police report would be to tell your kids the truth. You seem very upset about the concept of them knowing and may even welcome them doubting your explanation.

If she waits 18 months for the last kid to be out of the house, that will be 26 months since she met this man.

Also, the example of a married couple living apart in a blended family situation that was referenced by Sunny, from HNHN for Pageants doesn't apply to this situation. The example coupe with blended family issues was already married when they sought Dr. Harley's advice. The coupe didn't marry while planning to live apart

Sunny, it would be a lot easier to get married and set up wedded life if your children moved in with WS. Is this why you were looking for ways to avoid it and are no longer responding?

I was wondering the same thing...

Sunny...is it time alone that you would lose if your kids were to choose not to visit their dad?

Well Sunny, after 30 pages of arguing and now silence, I think we've wasted our time. That's too bad.

Sunny, are you two attending premarital counseling? Just wondering.
On another note, I don't think you have anything to lose by delaying the wedding for 2-3 years while your kids heal emotionally. You can go on dates together, still be engaged and enjoy that relationship stage, and save money for a nice ceremony or honeymoon.

The whole "clarifying" issue concerned me....I have never seen a poster do that, where they only will share parts of what Dr H has advised and then say they are awaiting "clarification" - I am not sure what there was to clarify regarding the 2nd M. He was very clear that she shouldn't marry at this time. Why not just share the entire email? Why not share what she wrote back to him?

My guess is she was trying to get Dr H to change his stance with regard to his telling her to hold off on the marriage. My guess is also that he did not change his position and since she was already unhappy about the exposure advice, she disappeared.

If you look at some of Sunny's posts after getting the Dr Harley's advice, there were some red flags.... "Dr Harley said no disruption". Why even use that wording? MB doesn't have any principles specifically designed to "disrupt" a relationship between a child and a parent. Sunny herself is the one who has said in a past thread that she didn't want to expose in order to not "disrupt" the relationship the children have with their father. When it was pointed out that Dr Harley didn't say anything about "no disruption", just told her to expose, Sunny seemed to get very aggitated.

Sunny, if you are still with us, I had concerns about you all the way back from your previous thread last year... You were looking for advice on how to basically convince/blackmail your ex WH into not having any teen girls sleep over at his place. When posters advised you as to the need for exposing, you indicated there was no problem, your ex was remorseful...it was unnecessary. Posters pressed you on this - why be concerned about girls sleeping there but then say there is no need to expose? You bailed on that thread too.

This indicates skewed thinking to me - a person who can manipulate facts and rationalize things in their head in order to justify behavior. I think it is this type of thinking that allowed you to bail your ex out in the first place. And this type of thinking that allowed you to continue your relationship (opposite of Plan B/D MB advice) with him and your children when that is unhealthy for all parties involved (which you were told over and over, you bailed on posters then too).

Sunny, I would LOVE to be wrong in this case. I am really worried about your daughters, their friends, potential granddaughters, etc. I also think if you ignore Dr Harley re the 2nd marriage, you are going to end up deeply regretting it. If you are still reading, please come back and let us know what is happening. If you are feeling conflicted, maybe we can help you work it out.

Sunny, I saw you posting on another thread. Would you like to give an update on your situation?

Hi goody,

My thread became hijacked with so much wild speculation on everyone's part - far off the mark - that I let it go rather than attempt to refute it all. I have never contemplated dumping my children for a romantic relationship, which was one of the more absurd accusations.

I had corresponded with Dr. Harley several times and then he was asking about the financial side of things. He never replied back to my response, so my correspondence with him fell off. I did not pursue further communications because I felt I understood his overall instinct on my situation.

I've had some way ups and way downs on my journey since these posts.

In Oct 2015, DD16 decided that she wanted to move out of my house and into her dad's house. That wretched my heart, but when I talked through the reasons for her choice with her, one of the things she mentioned was her dad "rode her butt" to keep her room clean there so she enjoyed her room at his house better. I told her regardless of her decision, I'll help her clean her room if it has gotten out of hand and it might take us an hour or two together. She will still need it for when she comes to visit me. She insisted that would not be the case and that she was too stressed out to even think abut cleaning her room and that she didn't want a visitation schedule for several reasons, one being her room. She would just see me if she had time. Ouch!

So, I hadn't been up to her room for a a month or so, but went up after she left to see what was going on. It was horrible - almost as if she had sabotaged it to help her make her decision to leave it. Trash, dishes, food, clothing everywhere. I was grateful to not find cockroaches and rats. As if a dozen hoarders had taken over and their pet pigs.

It took me over 12 hours and 20+ loads of laundry to clean her bedroom and bathroom. She was so grateful when she saw it next (she didn't return for several weeks) that she bought me some flowers and a card to say thank you. I have "ridden her butt" like she said her dad does to keep her room clean since, and am happy to report it is still sparkling clean. Good girl!! :-)

To make a long story short, her dad was unable to maintain an even temper with her and on Thanksgiving scolded her unfairly (to her view) in front of an older brother, his girlfriend and took sides with her younger brother who was accusing her in the wrong (in her view), so she moved back in with me and thankfully has been living here ever since. I think he probably lost his patience with her because he was drinking. His mouth can be very sharp and mean when he is drinking. So whether she was in the wrong or not, he put her down publicly and nastily, which was very hurtful to her.

She is the child he chased around with his fists raised, and who would frequently run to the bathroom in fear of him so she could lock the door while peeing her pants when she was a pre-teen & etc, etc. I think she wanted so desperately to have a good relationship with her dad that she wanted to move in with him, hoping for his kind attention since she was the only child stepping up to do that. Unfortunately, he wasn't able to maintain that.

She recently received a 6 point citation for a traffic violation and she wanted my fiance to come to a mandatory court appearance with her and specifically requested that I not tell her father.

I am not speaking up to advocate that she repair relationship with her father because every time she does (several times at my urging), he just lashes out to hurt her again unexpectedly. Probably when he has been drinking, but I'm not there to know for sure. So now I'm just staying quiet about it in the background and supporting her choice, in whatever way she makes it, in how she relates to her father. I will not encourage her back into this type of emotional seesawing as its very hurtful to her. I couldn't take it; why should she have to?

As to exposure, my girls have been made aware of their father's old behavior, as everyone here had urged me to do. This was very difficult for me to do because they were sincerely wretched to hear it. I felt so horrible to see them experience the pain of that knowledge.

At this time, all of my underage children still live with me, and as far as I can tell, they are not interested in changing that. I have much to be grateful for. Their dad has not insisted on specific visitation - just allows the kids to make it over when they want to.

As for my relationship with my fiance, it has continued to grow as wonderfully as it ever has. We are eagerly looking forward to our future together after my DD18 graduates from school in June. She is the only one of my children who does not want to have a new husband in the house while she is still home so we are giving her the time she needs.

I'm happy to read that things are going well for you.