Hello All,

My wife / partner of 6 years told me 5 days ago she wanted to end the marriage. She has made it clear that she is not interested in trying to "fix" the marriage.

I have read both Love busters and His needs her needs, as well as many of the sites additional resources and other people's stories; I had my first wife do the same thing 8 years ago - hence the feeling like an idiot.

My optimistic take is that she has fallen to a very low love bank point, mainly through my neglect, and lots of little love busters, and has decided to get away from the unhappiness.

I am fully aware of the "default" affair / snoop advice. I have access to her email accounts, and facebook, and have found no evidence. I am not so naive to think this is incontrovertible proof, but I am not interested in snooping any further. Reason being is that we live Australia and don't have the same religious conservatism that promotes social pressure to stay in marriages that the US does, and that I feel the plan A/B stuff relies on to a fair extent.

I also don't feel like I would be sufficiently motivated to dig in and restore the marriage were an affair involved.

I have started our process by asking for a chance to make changes with her, and when refused, to telling her I respect her right to leave if she wishes.

I have moved into a spare room, and have started making as many positive changes around the things that know are sore points.

- house hold support. making meals, cleaning, etc
- waking earlier - she has always been a very early riser, whereas I prefer to sleep until 8am - and have insisted people keep noise down
- kept all our interactions safe and pleasant

She is moving ahead with getting legal advice on house settlement, with a view to paying me out to leave, so I don't know how long before I will be expected to leave.

She knows I love her and would prefer to stay together. I also told her that while I will respect her decision I am going to make changes and try to look after my family still.

We each have a child from a previous relationship living with us.

Another complicating factor is that her previous husband tied her up, badly assaulted her, and killed himself when she tried to separate from him. I have tried to very sensitive to this as I know she would have been very worried about how I might react.

I have tried to re-assure her that I would never harm her or my step son; that I want her to be happy and feel safe.

I would love some advice regarding if, how, and when to introduce any MB information to her and any general advice on what approach to take.

Thanks for reading.

WE don't care one bit about "religious conservatism" here. We care about saving marriages. And the way we do this is to rule out an affair if there is any suspicion. The reason is not because we are religious nuts, as you seem to imply, but because everything we tell you to do will be a waste of time if there is an affair.

And further, we don't give a RIP if you want to leave your marriage if you discover an affair. We feel that is your sole decision. Some people decide to leave the marriage and that is their right. You will get no argument from us.

Good luck!

Is this a new marriage? I see you came here in 2008 with another marriage and were equally clueless about her affair. You wanted to do a mild mannered Plan A. What happened with that marriage?

Which is it? If she's your wife she is probably highly offended by this term. It wouldn't feature in a proposal would it?

Also the plans only work for legally married couples. If you've been snooping on a girlfriend you've probably broken the law. Ditto for exposure. And MB plans don't work without these steps.



Not hardly. You couldn't be more mistaken. Dr H advised me to divorce even though a lengthier Plan B would likely have patched up my marriage. His exact words were 'all marriages can be saved but not all should'.

This is not a marriage at all costs plan at all. Dr H says repeatedly that people who believe marriage is a commitment to stay together regardless of how you are treated are setting themselves up for abuse. Marriage is a commitment of care, not a commitment of endurance.

I am a non religious user of MB and it is entirely suitable for people of any and all beliefs. Dr H is a devout and proud Christian, but the plans are based on logic and his clinical psychology experience. He explains the methodology behind every bit of his advice.

The snooping is common sense and logic - surely you see that? How can you diagnose a problem without looking?



That is the right of any betrayed spouse. However you'll have a hard time making this decision without snooping for an affair...Are you going to guess?



Why on earth would she automatically assume violence from you? Violent men dont show the first signs of violence during separation, it shows up much earlier in the relationship. However it is common for women in affairs to fear and project violence onto innocent spouses.


Were the two of you single and divorced when you met?

I want to save my Marriage, I love my wife.

A Plan B would not fly here and based on what I know, and the risk of being caught trying to access her phone, I am not prepared to create the fallout of a plan B nor would it change the outcome - I am going to be out of here with no contact soon anyway.

I would lose any hope of contact with my stepson, and my daughters would be alienated to her.

Any other advice would be most appreciated

Are you married to her?

Indiegirl - you obviously didn't read my post, nor have you any understanding of a thing called PTSD, and the rate of homicide of women at the hands of men,

WE have been living together for 6 years, and we were married 3 months ago

Plan B isn't recommended for men anyway. Men are advised not to leave their homes as its classed as abandonment.

However if you're not married to her it's all moot.

I am well aware of domestic violence. I deal with the fall out every day at work.

I just don't think that you have given her reason to consider you violent - have you? Why would you all if a sudden become violent after six years? The suggestion is ludicrous.

Do you know what PTSD is?

Post traumatic stress disorder. My father suffers with it. Not sure of the relevance here.

If you had bothered to read my post properly, instead of barging in looking to create conflict, you have read that my wife as PTSD as a result of being viciously attacked with a knife by her previous husband and now suffers from PTSD.

If you suffer from PTSD and have also given her some reason to fear violence it would save time for you to just tell us.

Is how you are addressing Indie right now, how you address your wife when you don't like what she has says? Because getting rid of that attitude, which is surely a LB to her, would be step one for you in my book.

What are her complaints about the marriage? Why does she want to end it?

Can you tell us why she went through with a marriage only 3 months ago, only to want a divorce a mere 3 months later? Why didn't she split when you were living together? People who marry after living together consider that some kind of test has been passed. She must have felt she knew you well enough, and that you had passed her test, for her to have married you in April. What has happened since April to make her want to go through the legal and financial hassle of divorce?

You never said a word about PTSD in your original post though it would be a natural result of such an experience. However her triggers would be related to her ex (if he were still alive) or memories like specific sounds smells or places. I don't see what you're driving at - she wouldn't have any triggers relating to your relationship which make her fear you.

This is your original post. I see no mention of PTSD there; not one word.

In her letter to me she said "In her heart she knows she has given all tat she is able"

The love busting things that I have done would be

- neglecting to put our marriage first
- not always fulfilling my household support tasks
- being disrespectful and not making her feel heard sometimes when we had a disagreement about something
- my waking time being much later than hers
- not being as supportive of family commitments as I should have been

There has been no big event, only minor upsets, but upsets that have warn her out out perhaps.

Three months before the marriage she did say she was not feeling sure and when I asked her why her main three things were

- cleaning bathtroom, cooking meals, and the fact that I had refused toget out of bed at 5am to see our eldest stepson leave for university

If you've pledged to address her complaints and are filling her love bank (she doesn't have to be on board for you to do this) then you've an excellent chance of winning her back. Indeed complaints about non intimate stuff like house work are normally the result of a low love bank. A woman in love demands more romance, a woman out of love wants you to mop.

However if there's an affair in the background then nothing you do will work. And that usually is the case unfortunately.

This statement indicates that you do not have transparency at all, as you seemed to imply you do in your first post.

Why are you not welcome to access her phone? People with nothing to hide, hide nothing.

I had a similar fear of being caught myself, but now I can't remember why I was afraid of being 'caught' taking an interest in a spouses reasons for leaving! You'd be a bit odd not to take an interest.

Was this her biological child? Does she have more biological children remaining in the home? When do they leave for university?

Becoming an empty nester is a difficult time emotionally for many "moms".

It's also a transitional time.

Once the kids are gone and it's just "us" can create some panicky response when you just aren't in love with your spouse.

Also the concept of buyer's remorse. The marriage was supposed to fix her feelings, and it didn't (because that's not what marriage is supposed to do). Read up on Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders too.

Godspeed,
Mr. W

That sounds just like what you were doing in your previous marriage:

Would you say that you have behaved much the same as in your previous marriage, putting your own interests first and not listening to her complaints? Do you still play computer games? And I'm sure I read somewhere that you refused to get up early in that marriage, too, but I cannot find the post now.

It doesn't seem as if you used His Needs Her Needs to make permanent changes to your behaviour. Is that the case?

Did you ever finish this course?

You didn't answer MelodyLane's question about the affair in your previous marriage. Did you ever find out that there really was one? Did you do anything to try and save the marriage after that?

My first wife did have an affair. I disposed of my computer, lost 15kg, and waited 3 months after she left before i gave up.

My current marriage, i have fooled myself. Yes i still play games to relax. I also windsurf now as an outdoor activity.

I thought my wife and i would be immune to this as we have always followed the philosophy of not getting resentful if something upset but rather to devide if something could not be accomodated then we would bring it up with the other.

During our time together both our eldest children, my daughter, her son, have gone from 12-18 and left for university.

There have been many trying times that we have navigated successfully and we have kept the peace, and not been passive aggressive due to resentment, by following this philosophy.

But my wife is a giver and defaults to accomodation whereas I have asked for what i want in situations when it is important to me.

When we met i had been living alone for about 8 months and I had a good idea what was important to me for my happiness, and have always been clear that i believed that I am the only person who is responsible for MY happiness and that if something was important enough to me i would ask for it and not get angry and resentful like i used to in my previous marriage.

That is why on one hand i don't understand why she didn't just tell me what she wanted because i have always listened to her on other matters.

But i can see how through my neglect, and her giving personality, that she stopped asking and i didn't notice.

Greg, the problems you are facing are the problems most men face in marriage.

The difference is some men learn what to do about these problems, and some do not.

Isn't it time you spent some time to learn Marriage Builders? You've been here since 2008. By now you should know how to have a SPECTACULAR marriage!

Steve Harley told me I needed to "embark on a program of education" to learn the concepts and tools this program offers so that when difficulties came I would be able to rely on what I had learned and work through the programs. So I read books and read Q&A columns and, most importantly, listened to the daily Marriage Builders Radio show so I could learn how to save my marriage.

It took three years of listening to those daily radio sessions before things finally got good! I had to learn A LOT!

Are you listening to the Marriage Builders Radio show, daily? Do you have the app? If you won't invest this much effort into your marriage, then I'd suggest that we can't possibly help you.

Thanks Marcos, i just got the app and the Program sounds great.

Listen daily!

What Marriage Builders book do you own? Which ones have you read?

Something positive?

So day 6 and and I have gone on my new morning ritual of getting up at 6am and going for a walk on the local beach just before dawn.

I invited her via FB msg but she replied that she hoped I had a good walk.

After returning home and having a shower she came into kitchen while I was making coffee and let me know about a few perfunctory things which I listened attentively to. I then looked her in the eye and told her I missed her this morning and she got visibly teary, nodded and smiled at me.

Which Marriage Builders books do you own? Which ones have you read?

His needs her needs and love busters

Excellent.

I would also encourage you to get the latest edition of Surviving an Affair. The whole Marriage Builders recovery plan is in that book, even for a marriage that has not seen an affair.

You had a copy of HNHN when you came to the forum in 2008. However, there has been another edition of the book since then. You should get the most recent version.

When did you last read a section of either of those books?

That really is good advice. In particular, the conversation chapter in HNHN has been really enhanced!

The books are all out on kindle now, too.

I originally purchased two copies of each and overtime have loaned to people and not been returned.

I purchased the kindle versions thursday night after I discovered the letter my wife left me and went through both again.

I'm going to read through them again though.

I'll def take your advice and purchase a copy today then. Thankyou for tips

Day 6 ended on a low

We had a conversation in the afternoon she wanted to have about financial settlement plans.

Her idea is that she wishes to stay in house in short term and finance a loan herself to pay me my share so i will move out.

She has a very well payed job and i didn't bring much in way of assets so she may be able to finance my share.

While she still cares for me and was in tears when i explained how sincerely sorry i am for neglecting her and believing we have a great chance of restoring our marriage she maintained that she has no intention of working on our marriage.

She doesn't she has anything more to give and that there are fundamental things different about what we need.

She did reveal her feelings about how she has always been the parent in her relationships, with her mum, with her first husband, and now me. She also revealed in relation to me wanting to save our marriage and family that she didn't think we had a family. That her idea and my ideas about family were different.

She felt she had tried to build and nurture a relationship with my girls and that had done what i had the capacity to do which i took to mean, i probably should have asked for more detail, that i had not built a close a connection with my stepsons.

I asked if she would be willing to read something and her response was that she needed me to let her go inspite of the fact that she knows i am in a lot of pain.

I said while i respect her decision i will be trying to restore our marriage and believe we have a fantastic chance of repairing if we make spending time together and making our marriage the priority but she just said that she needs to look after her own happiness and if she agreed to do any MB stuff it would again be her looking after my needs at her expense and that she feels she already given what she can.

Any advice on moving forward.

Should i respect her wishes and accept a settlement to move? If she won't entertain any steps for spending time together i feel there is little chance of restoring love.

I would suggest you stop trying to persuade your wife to save your marriage, and start focusing yourself on making massive love bank deposits and completely eliminating love bank withdrawals. This is a situation a lot of men have faced; many women don't want to be educated about the odds of saving a marriage, but after their husbands get them to fall in love with them their feelings turn completely around.

It's the approach I had to take, and it worked!

Before we go too much further, did you listen to yesterday's Marriage Builders Radio show, and are you going to listen to today's?

Don't have relationship talks with her. Instead, invite her out on a date. Love bank deposits!

Maybe this is stating the obvious, but your wife must have expected that the act of entering into a legal marriage three months ago would result an improved relationship, and was disappointed when nothing actually changed.

Another comment:

In order to save your marriage, you need to get so close to her wife that it would be impossible for her to have an affair without your knowledge. You need to study her, know everything about her, be with her during all of her down time. Get close to her!

There is a good chance she will be annoyed with you getting that close, but even women who are deeply in love are sometimes annoyed with their husbands.

Tell her you don't want to talk about divorce or separating. Then ask her out on a date.

IF YOU WANT TO SAVE YOUR MARRIAGE, DON'T HAVE CONVERSATIONS WITH HER ABOUT DIVORCE. Your wife does NOT want to save your marriage, so don't just do whatever she wants or talk about whatever she wants.

It's also fine if she says no. Just tell her you'll miss her, not the same without her, send her a pic and a wish you were here text.

DON'T MOVE OUT AND DON'T DISCUSS MOVING OUT, okay?

There's no point to us working with you if you are going to move out or you are going to keep discussing divorce, separation, financial arrangements, etc., so can we get your commitment that you won't do this any more?


No man ever saved his marriage by dramatically insisting he was sorry.

Instead, he changed it by following the Marriage Builders plan.

The biggest problem I see is that you don't really know the Marriage Builders plan, and so you can't follow it.


Her talking to you is great. Listen and be supportive. Have lots of conversation with her - become the person that she can confide in about her problems. The conversation itself will make love bank deposits, so this is how you can get your wife to fall back in love with you.


This is an easy problem to solve for those who use the Marriage Builders plan. Your wife has a high emotional need for family commitment, so you schedule fifteen hours a week spending time with her and her children. Start suggesting times and activities. How old are the stepsons?


She's right. She has to look after her own happiness, because you are not doing it.

Start following the plan here, because that will make her happy. You have to become her greatest source of happiness.


You don't need her to do any MB stuff.

Ask her to do MB after you have learned the MB plan and she is in love with you again.

With the MB plan you can get your wife to fall in love with you again even without her agreeing to follow the plan. Got it? But to do that you'll have to make love bank deposits and not love bank withdrawals, so stop having depressing conversations with her about divorce, separation, and relationship issues. Start building a lifestyle that makes her happy - 30 hours a week with her, 15 hours a week with her and her children.


She is exactly right. It is up to you to save your marriage, now, if you want to keep it. You will have to go through a monumental effort to prime the pump. Do you feel like putting forth a LOT of effort? Do you feel like listening to us more than talking to us, and then following through on the instructions? Do you feel like trusting the advice here and following it completely, making no exceptions whatsoever because your marriage is on the line?


No.

Got the radio app and have listed to yesterday and todays.

So, in terms of respecting her decision and not trying to convince her, how does doing things for her work exactly? Like, today I chose to make her breakfast, and left a note for her describing one of the things I love about her, this morning before she woke up and left it for her as I went for an early walk. (Yes I invited her before; she refused). When I returned she had eaten it and later thanked me.

IF she wants me to let go, and it makes her feel guilty, Have I made a deposit or a withdrawal?

What if she insists on selling the house? How do I refuse that?

I just want to say appreciate everyone offering their advice. I know I have made poor choices and am taking responsibility for my neglectful behavior.

It is very challenging trying to know in the moment just what the right thing to do is when you are dealing with shock, sleep deprivation, and a churning panic inside.

I am trying to focus on staying positive, and finding as many opportunities to do and say things that will meet her EN and to avoid anything that will be a LB.

Anyway, I am trying my best to absorb everything and stay resolute even though I know she is equally determined to be separated one way or the other.

If I refuse to leave then that creates extra stress for her and I know she can and will move out. It's a dilema

That is an awesome question, Greg, and I think every husband should know the answer.

The answer is it is a deposit! It's very common for a wife to be annoyed as her husband begins to make deposits. His account in her Love Bank is still in the red, so her feelings toward him are still negative. For my wife it was a little bit like trying to get close to a (very cute) porcupine. But do continue to try to do affectionate and caring things for her, and try to improve at this constantly.

I asked if you feel like making a monumental effort - do you have an answer?

I also asked if we can get your commitment that you won't move out or discuss divorce, separation, financial arrangements, etc. any more. Do you have an answer?

Ask her where she wants to move to and start trying to make plans to move with her. If she insists that she meant for you to move somewhere separate, say "Oh, no, I don't want to do that. I love you and I want to be married to you." Then express admiration for her - find a few things about her to admire.

If she wants to sell the house or get a divorce nobody can stop her from doing that, and she doesn't need your cooperation. She just needs to see a lawyer. But don't tell her that. Don't even talk to her about it. Let her figure that out on her own if that's what she wants. It's not your job to cooperate in terminating your marriage. She's the one who wants to do that, not you. So you just cheerfully don't go along with it, cheerfully don't discuss it, and cheerfully talk about something else.

That is fine if that is what she wants to do. Let it be on her.

By the way, you need to start snooping to see if there is someone else in her life. You need to get so close to her and know so much about her that she could not possibly have an affair without your knowledge.

Every husband has to do this to some extent.

Don't skip this step. You have to do the whole program.

You might consider seeing your doctor and having something prescribed to help even out the emotional highs and lows so you can stay rational and stick to the plan. I think you should also see about having something done for the sleep deprivation. You need everything within you to execute this plan and put forth the monumental effort that it takes to win a woman back. You need to be at your best. You need your sleep, and you need to be in control of your emotions. If you can't do that on your own, definitely see a doctor.

You need to find out the truth so you can call it quits if there's an affair. That's a perfectly acceptable decision to make. You need to find out.

Hi Marcos

Thanks for feedback. It made me laughed. Almost forgotten what that's like

Ill try and answer your questions.

Yes i am going to commit to stay in house and not discuss seperation, divorce, or settlement.

I am going to make a monumental effort.

Snooping - i have done some but I would need access to her phone to check further which I think is too risky. Im not even sure i know her password anyway.

I am exercising twice a day. I def recommend the combination of stress hormones, loss of appetite, and exercise in any serious weight loss program. Lost 5kg

Make the monumental effort required to get in there and check. I believe there are some great suggestions in the Investigate 101 forum here.

Why are you boys always so keen to move out? There's being a gentleman, and there's being a kamikaze. It would take a team of ninjas to get me out of the marital home if my husband suddenly got cool on me.

You've got a much better chance of meeting her needs in the same house. Besides you also run the risk of her moving someone else in. If you were lovebusting her or subjecting her to angry outbursts then Dr H would probably agree that you should go. But it doesn't sound like that at all.

You are the only soldier in this battle. Look after yourself.

I think this is awesome advice because house hunting is fun. You could really paint a picture of your future together that she would be forced to mull over.

It's also a great way to sneakily meet loads of neeeds. A bigger place for FS a beach house for RC etc...

Thankyou for the words of encouragement indiegirl

Day 8

Woke up and got my self dressed to go for early morning bush walk and saw wife in kitchen. When I said good morning in cheerful tone I could immediately tell her mood was more frigid.

I have been expecting her to get less amicable so it was no suprise. I asked her if she ad slept any better and was told no she hadn't. When I asked her if she would like to come for a walk her response was - "Nope".

I went , Okay and off I went.

I listened to todays MB Radio and tried to formulate what I was going to say regarding the separation and settlement process she is charging ahead with.

After changing I went upstairs to get breakfast and asked if we could discuss something.

I said I would be enthusiatic about becoming a partner in the decision making process regarding anything to do with the house as any work, or repairs etc directly affect both of us, and I followed Marcos' advice and said I intended to stay in the house and would love to go looking at smaller houses with her and did not intend to discuss anything to do with separating or settlements.

She was noticeably thrown off. After gathering her senses she re-iterated "I've already told you that we are separating"

At which I responded that I loved her and intended to care for and support her.

I then changed the subject and suggested we brainstorm maintenance tasks for the house at some point which she agreed to.

I then mowed lawn and did a couple of hours of weeding - yay.

She later asked me if would relocate my windsurfing gear rack to the opposite side of the house for purposes of allowing access to cleaning area they now live in - which I enthusiastically agreed to do.

I think she is off to get legal advice regarding the settlement offer. She has already made a rediculously unfair proposition which I said was not even close to the range of settlement ratio that I had been advised I am entitled to. It is hurtful to think she is so resentful inside that she feels the need to try to disadvantage me deliberately. I don't intend to discuss moving out or settlements any further. If she wishes to break up the family and create turmoil and emotional distress then I can't stop her leaving. My daughter and I will be staying until such time as the house sale is forced.

Anyway, I'm off to make spinach quiche for dinner.

Quick Update

Wife came home this evening and was obviously in a better mood and asked if I wanted to have that brainstorming session about the jobs needing doing around the house. She was at pains to re-iterate that she wasn't going to change her mind regarding the separation, that she didn't want her "pleasantness" to get my hopes up, but that she didn't want to have an uncomfortable environment in the house over the next couple of months as we get the house ready for sale and put on the market.

As you can see I have taken moving out off the menu, and I think she has been given advice as to the realistic outcome of what the settlement would need to be to be fair. Meaning she can't finance the settlement.

We then spent 15 minutes discussing plans for all the required cleaning, repairing, etc, and allocating jobs for each other.

It was a much more relaxed and natural conversation than any we have had since the bomb.

I am feeling much more optimistic now that I know I have at least a couple of months and she seems to want a more relaxed level of interaction.

Dinner was almost "normal" as we talked and joked around with the kids.

Maybe I have a chance to make meaningful deposits if she isn't feeling so stressed about getting me out of the house?

Day 9 - Wife went out early for a run and I went out on mine.

Saw her briefly later when she returned; she had purchased a small gift for my daughter. We had a couple of short functional conversations about some house items and I then started work on one of the major clean up jobs.

15 minutes later she to me to let me now she would staying a friends place tonight and was going to visit another friend for lunch.

Now, she is taking er son with her tonight and the phone GPS showed she was where she said she was going today so no affair stuff there.

Question: I have seen people on here recomending following "her" around everywhere. Now, she would lose it if I tried to tag along with her. In fact my intuition is t would be a big LB.

Advice on her activities

The other question was relating to snooping / txt messages.

They are the only thing I can't get access to. Is it advisable to simply ask her if I can check her phone?

Snooping update

As I said we only "married" 3 months ago. She has emails she was responding to only a month ago in relation to honeymoon arrangements and booking trip with my brothers family in december.

So there is no evidence of physical affair at that point but about two weeks ago I did feel something wasn't right.

Today I have found evidence of a flirting relationship with a business associate she has had professional dealings with.

It could be harmless but they are discussing business related things using their private emails. Have exchange season greetings and best wishes to each others families. Her email to him today

Hey Steve,
> Not sure if work ever takes you to Sydney -
> I head down each month at about this time for a few days in central office. It'd be great to catch up. I have so many questions. Are you really that serious & svelte in real life or is your LinkedIn pic photo shopped? How's the women's strategy at work coming along? Is there anywhere in Sydney that makes a decent mojito? Is it too soon for me to start plotting defection to the corporate world if I'm still staying in xxxxx for another 2 and a bit years (only one kid to go now!) How do I find a company who will truly appreciate my unique (weird) talent?
> That's just the beginning.
> Let me know if you're heading south anytime soon.
> Nic


She doesn't mention me obviously. I know in a previous email last year he is obviosuly in a relationship but I have no way of knowing what his relationship status is now nor what communication they have via phone / txt to supplement this.

Advice. She is heading to sydney on Monday for work. I'm worried.

She has also just emailed solicitor to have me removed from her will but has requested to leave my daughters provided for in the same way.

I can't understand how she can have just become so determined. there is just no grey area with her at all.

It doesn't sound like there's an affair with this guy if that email was sent today. Not one entrenched enough to cause a separation.

She's being very inappropriate and flirty though. You need as many radars on this issue as you can.

I wish I could check her txt msg's and put my mind at rest. IF I knew three was no EA/PA I would just be able to calm down and not panic.

Given she was still planning things around us being together 3 weeks ago I doubt there is an actual affair.

Is it likely she will be able to keep her pent up resentment for the two months or so it will take to sell the house?

I really think the risk of her discovering spyware is nothing compared to the risk of an affair.

What's one tantrum compared to that? Besides it's not like t she could possibly expect you to feel secure in your relationship at the moment.

Love bank deposits are unconscious, so if she chooses to live you she will be accepting love bank deposits whether she wants to hold on to resentment or not. She's actually planning on the time being pleasant, which creates love.

Same thing with this guy. If she flirts and has a fun time with him she's going to get lovebank deposits. She clearly has no idea how to block deposits, so give out yours and block other guys.

That requires knowing about them and it may mean surprising her in Sydney with some roses or something. Pee on your territory a little.

Upon checking the email history further i discovered they had some form of courting / emotionally supportive relationship at the end her 1st marriage that did not become physical. He was seperated at that time and expressed that he would have liked to go further but didn't wish to take advantage in her vulnerable state.

How do i ensure there is no chance at them meeting even if the intention is not to start something. There is def an attraction and emotional connection.

Listening to MB Radio today the scenario was very similar to mine except it was a wife trying to deal with a want away husband.

Dr Harley's advice was to write a letter commiting to meet his emotional needs and remove LB behaviour but that she would not be able to be a partner in life with him while he is having that other relationship.

His advice was to expose and if behaviour of Husband doesn't change the advice was to then plan B.

In my case it seems to be that my wife is more determined to get away, but the other relationship is lower level, but it is something that has been sitting in her mind the whole time she has been with me even though it wasn't a full blown EA. At least i dont believe so but i don't have txt history.

Having continued contact with him even semi professionally where they both express admiration for each other, is hurtfull and inappropriate.

Should i write letter and not expose?

Should i write letter and expose?

Do nothing even though she is looking to flirt and perhaps kindle something?

Regardless of the extent of the relationship, it would need to be terminated in any future path anyway.

So question is whether i just bite the bullet and use this as the accellerant for her to attempt to restore love when she knows I know about someting.

Or do i say nothing and let her go off in the next couple of months and then deal with a FB affair?

Is the risk of losing her greater if i do nothing or if i overstep in pointing to this relationship even though i don't know the full extent of the communication between them?

Yesterday I took Indiegirls advice and I have purchased, and arranged the delivery of a Dozen Red roses to the office she will be working in on Monday.

My thoughts at the moment are to write a generic letter clearly stating my commitment to EN and to remove all LB behaviour. I would like to state in the letter that her clear determination to separate and to skip all steps in between in helping to save the marriage clearly points to an affair of some kind and that I cannot be a co-operative partner in life with her if that is the case and that I want her to cease all contact and to help me restore love to our marriage.

Advice?

So I wrote a letter basically telling wife I am commited to restoring love in our marriage but that if there was an affair it would need to cease immediately.

She has denied it and I have told her I cannot facilitate a separation as friends knowing she has reconnected with and conducted at least an emotional affair with a man she had been with prior to meeting me.

I have Exposed to my whole family on FB, including her and her son.

My daughter as said she doesn't want to talk to her again. The marriage and family is looking pretty much destroyed.

Dont count your marriage out yet.
Most affairs die after exposure.

EDit: I reviewed the past 2 pages of your thread. Is your wife in an affair with this man? Wjat evidence do you have of this affair?

I found a series of emails that started october 2014 with him contacting her. The content shows they had in intense emotional connection that was almost consumated, so kissing etc, that was interrupted by her boys arriving home. The content of the email shows flirting and mutual admiration.

Coincedently she spoke to me of being unsure about marriage in december because of household chores things.

The last one is her telling she will be in a particular city regularly and that she would really love to catch up.

At best its an innapropriate reconnection with an old flame.

So you've told your family about the affair from her last marriage and that she is planning to meet him again for a date?

I don't thing there's anything wrong or untrue in that but effective exposure targets all three sides (yours, hers, and OM family) and has as much evidence about the current situation as you can get.

I would concentrate on getting evidence. Also, do you know for sure her first husband was abusive? It's a common WW accusation. You need to protect yourself with a recorder.

IThe email trail shows it was an unconsumated emotional connection initially. The contact is inappropriate and disrespectful. I'm not concerned about further exposure as it only part of the issues for her. She is not going to change her mind and it makes me feel relieved she had this innapropriate relationship as I can stop pining for someone that doesn't care.

If you've decided you're out then there's no need for any recovery measures.

You don't need any proof for cause in a divorce in Australia do you? Maybe see a lawyer about the house situation.

The false accusations of abuse are still a concern - most WWs figure out its the best and quickest way to get you out of the house. In a weird way though they almost convince themselves it's true.

Even if you have independent verification that her ex was genuinely abusive, she has seemed very keen to transfer an unreasonable paranoia about this onto you. This makes me most nervous because so many WWs come up with an abuse claim out of the blue without this much forewarning. We usually recommend BHs carry a recorder on them when dealing with their spouses.

You've only been married for 3months, right? If You weren't married at that time though, She was a free agent and had every right to date someone else.

Have I misunderstood? She was in contact with him before the marriage and there has been a single email since the marriage, last week?

No, relationship was recconected via email (i think) and maintained with multiple emails and potentially txt and phone but i have no records of that.

Content of email shows they maintained a high level of affection toward each other.

Was the communication prior to your marriage?

You may need a PI to help investigate.

Their initial relationship was. The emails started in october 2014.

The content of the emails shows they still have an affectionate connection. That she would interact periodically, send christmas wishes to him and his family, and email regarding work related projects that he might be able to assist with.

So, not a full on "love each other" kind of interaction but, to me, an inappropriate emotional need meeting relationship.




He lives in another state. There is no immediate physical contact risk.

Except that she last emailed him lat week to let him know she would like to "discuss" employment opportunities with him if he is ever in Sydney - letting him know she would be there for the next few days.

He lives and works 1200km away but would no doubt have periodic trips there himself for business I am sure.

I think I made a mistake in writing the letter to her and exposing this to the family now. I reacted very emotionally, am very hurt to find out she was communicating with this person she had a fling with; albeit sex didn't happen, they both admit an attraction.

When she didn't admit to the relationship I did the wrong thing and reacted angrily - not to her face but by saying we can only commnicate via email or SMS and asking her to not contact my daughters.

I woke this morning and felt that was a mistake, rang both my daughters to appologise to them, then rang my Wife to say I had reacted emotionally about the discovery of this contact and wanted her to maintain her relationships with my girls.

She now knows that I had access to her emails and has changed the password. Massive breach of trust.

She was already very determined to leave me, regardless of how fantastically I went for the first 9 days, this would have made a large LB reductions.

I don't feel there is any hope.

It's common to be on an emotional roller coaster regarding your decisions. If you're in any way unsure you're done, find and fight the affair. Ending it gives you options and you have nothing to lose.



No, hiding emails for the purposes of bonding with other guys is a massive breach of trust. Without that, she wouldn't care that you were looking at her emails.

I don't know why you see this as suddenly hopeless. It already was, she was leaving you and had made worrying reconections with a former affair partner. You had nothing to lose. Busting it up gives you a shot you didn't have before.

Besides it's common for WW to be annoyed about their privacy aka secrecy and the A being ruined. That doesn't prevent recovery if the A is destroyed. However it isn't wise to have multiple trickle exposures. If you're going to recover you need evidence and to expose in one go.

The relationship with this man is just her flirting with a man who is wealthier and powerfully successful in a career she aspires to. She respects and admires him. She doesn't respect me anymore because, in her words

"I was the parent in my relationship with my mum, the in my first marriage, and the parent in this relationship"

How can i stop it?

I was contacted by my father aftet i did the FB to all members of the immediate family and he actually defended the notion that having a frienddhip with a former flame is perfectly ok. My half sister and her partner supported my Wife saying "that's life"
Other some postings extending their love there has been no consequence for her; i have actually been made to look desperate and emotionally unstable.

Huh, is your dad very good at being in a long term faithful marriage? Most married men know that's not OK.

Daja, the truth always becomes apparent in the end. The only problem with your FB exposure is you did it without getting the whole truth. Lots of people don't recognize the signs. It doesn't mean the truth has vanished, it's still there.


When you told me your wife's first husband became abusive during their separation, my immediate thought was there was an affair going on - I thought it might even be you which is why I asked if you were both divorced when you met. That was a suspicion but the truth always bobs up to confirm or dispute these suspicions.

She will have been addicted to him, enough to leave her marriage. He's not interested in pursuing her when she's available, she's a part time toy to him. As long as contact is maintained, so was her lovebank. She's coincidentally in contact with him when she wants to leave you with very vague and silly complaints that you can't actually act on.

You might not have the whole truth yet but anyone who can't see the likely risks, if not an actual affair, has no earthly idea how they are caused or resumed.

She was seperating from first husband and she did tell me she slept with someone else during her marriage. From the emails it is evident this man and her have not had sex so she slept with someone else back then.

Whn they were seperated, she went to pickup children from him as they had been exchanging caring of boys and Her 1st husband tied her to the bed, slashed her groin area repeatedly with a knife and then eventually shot himself in the head.

Should i contact this other bloke? I would need him to cease contact completely. How would i do that?

What should my next steps be. Should i talk to her about it?

My dad is in a very long term marriage like 20 years or so

There is another aspect to this perhaps which is that she has suffered from PTSD as a result of this attack.

The day before she told me she wanted to end our marriage she had been to her psychologist. The gist of that meeting was a realisation of the Parent/child issue. He must have helped to crystalise in her mind that I am getting all my needs met but she isn't because she is being the adult.

On top of this she has been in contact with police providing information to them about the assault she suffered and the connection with a previous partner of her 1st husband that had gone missing. Plus she knew of his first wife and she had complained to police of being tied to a tree and threatened with a knife.

I can imagine that this may have been PTSD triggers as well. I feel like she considers my neglect of her needs as being the same as what he was doing to her and all this, along with the connection with this other man has contrived to push her to ths point.

Daja, if you really think psychological issues are involved of that complexity I would contact Dr H. He is the clinical psychologist and he will give marital recovery advice to aid you, whereas her shrink is just telling her to help herself - if she's even being honest.

It's massively concerning that she was a serial cheat even before your marriage though. Dr H would know what your chances are with her.

Okay thankyou - I'll write him an email.

It may be true that your wife has suffered PTSD or other psychological trauma from her past. There are posters on here from every walk of life, male and female, all ages, all religious backgrounds, all socioeconomic backgrounds, from all over the world, with PTSD and psychological disorders, physical impairments, you name it. The script for how they act when they are *wayward* is identical in every case however. And the course of action to kill affairs and recover marriages is the same in all cases too.

But if you are in doubt about the course of action to take, by all means contact Dr Harley, he is the expert here.

Are you suggesting i simply grab her phone as that is the only way i could get further proof to subdtantiate a full blown affair.

You need to brainstorm. What about voice recorders in areas she might use the phone to make calls, a PI, or buying her a new phone pre installed with spyware?


There have been spouses with hidden burner phones who have been caught. The key is snooping stealthily and patiently and constantly looking for opportunities.

You've tipped your hand a little and she'll be cautious for a while but she will settle down (if you do) and start leaving her trail again. The thing with affairs is they are compelling so no matter how jittery the spouse - they have to resume things.

I have confirmed beyond doubt that there is no other man - relationship - fling, etc at the root of her behaviour.

I have managed to get access to her phone and SMS history and there is no evidence at all.

What there is evidence of is her getting into a negative state of mind due to PTSD, and having a bad reaction to a relatively minor event at home. She confides everything to a close female friend and this friend is essentially encouraging her to go through with her negative thoughts and then providing support and encouragement to her when she reports that things that I am doing to restore the relationship are making her think twice.

How do I combat her negativity and her friend supporting it?

Keep following the suggestions I've given you to make massive love bank deposits and to avoid love bank withdrawals. Keep getting so close to her that she couldn't possibly have an affair without your knowledge. Keep listening to the Marriage Builders Radio show daily.

Stick to the plan, because it works.

Hey Markos,

does that mean I should ask to go with her when she goes out and if she refuses, which she will of course, should I just follow her in the other car?

She would get furious.

And another question regarding getting the balance right. One of her gripes with me would be that she hasn't been able to rely on me t get things done do supportive tasks.

She has been making plans for the cleanup and de-cluttering of the house and has asked me to bring some boxes home to help pack things. Should I be helpful or refuse.

Where is she going to, exactly?

She jogs.

She visits friends.

Etc.

If she goes out she usually isn't telling me where but I am able to check.

She has been where she has said she will be on the occasions i have asked her.

Is there any point in me talking to her friend and showing her the MB stuff do you think?

I'd tag along.

Have you told her you want to spend more time with her? Recently?

Absolutlely.

It's gotten to the point where she had repeatedly asked me to stop asking and to stop trying to be affectionatte like sending txt msgs or leaving notes etc.

Leaves me feeling torn. Do i give her breathing space or just relentlessly ignore her requests and keep blindly persuing her?

Nope, keep asking, keep pursuing, keep being affectionate, keep trying to spend time with her.

Okay. I've arranged to get freshly baked croissants from baker before dawn, going to setup a picnic breakfast on headland with blankets. I have invited her. I expect either no response or a response that she has no intention of coming.

I am going to just go through with it and then - what? Send her a TXT to say the sunrise wasn't quite as fantastic without her?

On another subject. I have lined up a talk with the Harleys on their Radio program. They asked me to invite my wife to email any information about the reasons she wishes to end the marriage. She basically replied that she has no intention of staying married but is glad I am talking to someone.

She is very determined.

When will you be on?

Monday Morning US time. Tuesday morning EST where I live

She emailed back to say she wouldn't be accepting any picnic or outing invitations. Which is what i expected. I replied that i would be collecting the special croissant order at 6am and hoped she would change her mind as i would love to just talk to her.

Hopefully my planning and going through with it will have some positive impact.

I am curious, as i am able to check still, why she doesn't delete my persuing emails. She deletes other junk and what not.?

I will be taking kids trampolining tomorrow so that shoukd be a good LB deposit.

You already have confirmation of their relationship by the emails ??

Ok. So there is this OM - that she had an emotional affair with during her first marriage who she is still emailing/flirting with and trying to meet up with as soon as 2 weeks ago and you don't think this has anything to do with your marital issues? The fact that she blocked you from looking at her emails and wants a separation screams wayward.

She also had a PA with OM2. Did she have any other affairs?

I sure hope you told Dr Harley all of this.

I will tell him.

There is no record of contact on her phone. Why would she send fishing email if they could simply co-ordinate directly via some other method?

I dont know if she has done anything else but there is no evidence yet. I am still snooping, I can track her phone so i can see where she goes so hopefully if she is seeing someone i'll find out. Just no proof yet.

Any thoughts on why she wouldn't just delete my emails ? It looks like a good sign right? If she didn't care or was attached somewhere else wouldn't she just delete them?

A wayward would not delete emails that you sent if she suspected you were monitoring her emails. You would notice that yours were missing. This behavior is typical of someone trying to lay a false trail. You need to dig more deeply.

Can you answer my question?

This is what we know: There were two affairs in the first marriage. And a resumption (at least she is trying) of one of those affairs in this marriage. Any others?

Any affairs with married men before she was married?

Why did you FB message her vs texting? Just curious....

How did you get access to these records when you weren't able to before? You are speaking of the actual phone records, right? Because the phone itself would be useless as she could just erase things...

She married her first husband at 18 or something so no.

Before me she had a relationship with a divorced man.

That's all I am aware of

No particular reason - I have been txt'ing and FB messaging, leaving notes, etc.

She backed up her phone last week on our PC.

What is peoples perspective on doing jobs related to cleaning and preparing house for sale?

Wife has made a long list of tasks that need taking care of. On one hand I want to show her she can depend on me to follow through on tasks together but on the other that is making it easier for her to get all tasks done to get to point of selling house and physically seperating.

Thoughts?

Have you ever lived in a house ready for sale? For me, it was an extremely positive experience because it was so clean and fresh.
IIWY, I wouldn't resist cleaning and refreshing. You should avoid packing.

So happily do cleaning jobs but politely avoid packing jobs and let her and her family do that?

Eg, her parents are coming up next weekend to help pack stuff and store stuff at their place.

She has asked me to get boxes from work as we often have heaps.

So Day 17 was overall successful.

I started day following through on romantic breakfast and re-invited Wife even though she had already declined. She must have been a bit annoyed that I was ignoring her request to stop messaging her affectionately and to stop inviting her on dates and outings because she messaged me to remind me of er request and that she is not going to join me outings. She made of point of saying she is not wanting to be rude just clear.

I think her being annoyed is a good sign. So I replied that I love how respectfulness informs all her interaction and that even when she is annoyed she is respectful and told her I was just picking up the croissants.


I went to headland and setup the blanket and picnic items. Took some pictures of sunrise and msg'd her to say I missed sharing the beautiful morning with her.

I picked up my daughter from her mothers and spent morning doing practical things around house and had a few interactions with wife that were relatively relaxed.

I had agreed to get boxes for my wife so I visited a few places and arranged to have some put aside at a local supermarket to pick up the next day.

I just stayed happy and pleasant. Tried to respond positively and enthusiastically to any request for assistance or input into house stuff.

In the afternoon I picked up stepson from his weekend job and took him and my daughter (both 15) to a trampoline fun centre and jumped around with them.

The evening saw wife and stepsons going to her friends place for dinner and my daughter and I went to my brothers for dinner.

When we returned I fed the pets and did the washing up and cleaned kitchen.

So all up I think a good day of Love bank investment and no love busters.

Day 18

- Was up at 6am to see off Stepson 18 heading back to Uni
- Collected boxes and various repair and cleaning items for work around house
- spent 5 hours repairing all the window screens while W worked on cleaning fence and paths etc
- cooked an indian chicken curry for dinner


W was noticeable down and not talkative at all. She had sent me an email prior to dinner to request a valuation of some of my belongings for the purposes of her getting a financial settlement advice. I responded with


Her Response was this


I have replied with


She as visibly not happy at the dinner table. Like part of her life force had been sucked out of her.

She is conflicted because you aren't being the ogre. Keep doing what you are doing.

You would be wise to viit an attorney though to find out what your rights are and how you can delay. Then if she brings up separating, you can say "let the attorneys talk about that, you and I should have fun. Want to go to the beach?"

I can just imagine her response to that

Ironically seeing her so unhappy is harder to deal with than keeping myself positive. I appreciate everyones advice on trying to woo her. It has given me something to focuss my actions on.

Just wondering. If there is no OM approx how long should I expect to wait before she might reconsider the relationship?

She was very agitated again this morning. Giving me the most minimal responses to my good morning and later admiring her outfit.

Dr Harley mentions that from a state of withdrawal she may periodically stick her head up into conflict. Her email and behaviour i think is her way of pushing because she is not getting what she wants. Which is me giving up.

She has sent me an email this morning regarding rea estate agents. I have responded that selling the house is not part of my plans at the moment and that we should plan a weekend away.

She has responded by advising she has another appointment with her psychologist and that I am welcome to come with her so I can better understand her perspective.

I responded that i thought the pyschologist had a much different set of priorities to facilitating communication between herself and I and didn't seem to have our family or relationship as the main priority.

Should I go anyway?

Hmm, my first thought is don't go but maybe Dr. Harley would feel differently. When is the appointment? Do you have time to email the Harley's?

I'm actually talking to them on the radio tomorrow morning

She must have reached her limit because she has just let me know that she and my stepson will be making their own arrangements for dinner tonight.

I would go and record the whole session taking care not to argue. Just to hear what the psychologist is recommending to her. But good thing that you get to hear Dr. Harley's opinion tomorrow.

When they came back she went straight to her bedroom and closed the door. Txt'd my daughter to ask her to come up and say goodnight!

Wow. I am getting the distinct impression that either my continued pursuing is distressing her or my assertion about there being someone else has her feeling guilty - she has literally avoided eye contact and any verbal communication since then.

I wish I could get some clear evidence one way or the other without risking causing more damage to any trust we still have. I can't bring myself to grab her phone as the time I would need to check it would mean I would get caught.

Just another coomunication thing.

I investigated the "fun run" event and emailed her two options we could together. I then enquired about accomodation for one event at a couples retreat near the event which is also the location of our first romantic weekend away when we were dating.

Confirmation of avalability came through which i forwarded to her with no response thus far.

Rejected

I don't know your wife, so maybe I'm wrong on this one. I get the feeling the things you are doing to fill her love bank, aren't the things that make substantial deposits. If they do, then discard my advice.

I've been told that I'm very good at refusing or blocking love-bank deposits. Things like invitations to breakfast, fun events, dozens of roses - for me these things are easy to refuse or to dislike. They scream "I want you to like me!" and therefore it would not work for me if I didn't want that person to deposit. For me, it is way easier for someone to deposit if he meets my top emotional need than if he gives me ten dozens of roses.
As for meeting my emotional needs, I can't very well block those deposits.

Change your lovebusting habits, go to bed at the same time, get up at the same time. Maybe the first cup of coffee is worth more than an elaborate breakfast. Show interest in her child as much as in yours.

You mentioned this:

It seems to me her unmet emotional needs are in the domestic department and family commitment. Change your habits so meeting her needs becoms a routine instead of a daily effort.

Because of the short time you were married when she wanted out, the impression I get is that she expected you to change into a perfect and committed husband after marrying. You didn't.
I am not sure there is an emotional affair (yet, but she's vulnerable to one). A PI could answer that question.

Did you talk with the Harleys?

You make some good points.
Her no.1 need according to her is Time. She is avoiding spending any time in the same area as me as possible. Eg. We have had less than half dozen family meals since she decided to seperate. Yesterday i came home early to get dinner ready because she hadn't informed that she was having dinner at her female friends place like she has been doing, i got dinner cooking then found out from stepson she wasn't going to be home for dinner.

We did spend 4 hours in yard on sunday doing clean up repair jobs but she is making time spending very dificult.

Her next needs are affection, admiration, communication, family commitment, gifts. Household support.

I am doing all those as much as i can.

I have stopped all known LB behaviour, like, as you suggested, sleep patterns, i now go to bed 3 hours earlier. I have only responded without love to her once when I discovered her innapropriate emails from a few months ago. Other than that all my interactions have been based on love and understanding.

I have been exercising almost every day and have lost 6kg. I was pretty fit before anyway but had bit of a belly with love handles. I'm now looking much leaner.

The only real area i could make massive deposits in is my stepson. We share computers as an interest and I have introduced him to windsurfing.

Yep, yesterday morning. Essentially confirming she is in withdrawal and I might have a small chance of changing her mind by focussing on making as many deposits before we physically separate as possible. He doubts there is any hope once that happens.

He recommended to keep persuing her on the basis that he has had many wives tell him that it was how hard the husband fought to keep her that won them over.

My wife has sincerely asked me to let her go and stop fighting to preserve good will between us and make the environment as comfortable for everyone as possible.

I am inlcined to follow Dr Harley's advice but to maybe tone it down a notch from daily invites to weekly ones.

That is what my wife has said.


I wouldn't tone it down. You don't have time. And a married couple needs to connect daily. This is always annoying to a wife in withdrawal, but as long as you are not being demanding, disrespectful, or angry, keep it up.

If you want to succeed, don't take Dr. Harley's advice and add other ideas like toning it down and doing it less frequently!

Okay. Sent txt inviting her on my run and suggested we could take turns checking out each others bottom.

I got back and she has txt me demanding i stop sending her invitations. She considers it is now harrassment.

Don't tone it down.
Don't be "over the top".
Be consistent, and routine with your admiration and changes. Otherwise you send a mixed message.

Please don't tell her that you see her in pain and you love her enough to let her go and save her the pain. (Regarding your comment on the show)

Can you see, Dejavude, how saying that is an insult and will backfire?

The underlying message is:

I can't handle seeing you disappointed.

I would rather bow out than prove that I am committed to changing.

I don't believe that you are worth fighting for.

I see your needs as excessive and too difficult to meet.

You are expecting things that I find impossible to deliver. In the end I will fail and you will inevitably be disappointed.


Is that the message you want to send?

A better message would be one which says that you are sorry for any pain which you have caused her, and that you see the changes as beneficial to both of you, that her happiness in your marriage is your top priority from now on.

You do not want to see her in pain anymore so you will take her into your world and care for her like none other. She is too important to you to let her go. Instead you will start being what she needs from now on.

Of course she'll be ticked every time you make an effort to meet her needs, that it came to this point for you to listen up- And for a long time she will react that way, until she can count on your care and protection as the standard and not the exception, and without her having to remind you.

So, throwing caution to the wind I responded to my wifes txt by knocking on her door and speaking to her.

I appoligised for making her feel harrassed, told her u couldn't help want to be with because i love her and find her irristable.

She started by saying she feels like she has tried not to be rude but will now no longer be participating in family meals and for me not to do anything else for her.

She steered the conversation to wanting to arrange real estate agents at which I responded that i had no intention of selling. When said she didn't want to have to take me to court i asked her if she wanted to have lunch with me. She then just walked into her room and closed door.

I then got this txt msg
[quote]

I don't love you anymore. There is no us. It's over. Have some dignity & self respect. Stop fighting me. The more you continue on the more resentment that builds. Man up & accept the reality.

[\quote]

I responded with

I totally accept your right to self determination. It is with the greatest humility and love that i wish to do whatever it takes to make you happy. Self respect comes from within and by making choices that we believe are the right thing to do even when others would prefer we give up. I am sorry that my actions brought us to this place and I apologise if my determination to do what i believe is the right thing causes you discomfort. On balance trying to keep our family and restoring love to our marriage is the right choice. If you continue to separate at least you will know I admitted my mistakes, tried to show you how important you and family really is to me and never gave up.

She has told my daughter and stepson that she won't be having anymore family meals and will be ignoring me as I am not "getting it".

She is planning on taking step son to house sit for three weeks in approx a week so they won't be here anymore. Well, that will be a month so suppose it depends on how far she can go regarding the house and settlement without my co-operation.

It's not looking very promising.

Stay in Plan A.

I think that your response was good.

Also did you tell her that you agree to go to the psych with her? She may have painted you to the psych as unwilling.

Yes i am going with her on monday.

Dr Harley advised it was good idea and to just show contrition and willingness to change.

Yes!

"Dr. Psych-

Things have "clicked" in a way that I understand better how to care for her now.- ... the changes I am willing to make are good, and want her to be happy in iur marriage."

Don't disagree or try to justify your plan with the psych. If you don't agree, just let the psych know that you "hear what he/she is saying..." Don't give the impressiin of forcing her at all.

I listened to your show.

When you established the facts in your letter to Dr. Harley, you left out that she had TWO affairs in her first marriage, and this guy she's emailing with is one of the OM. Susie told you to share this detail with Dr. Harley. Instead, you told Dr. Harley you were mistaken and there was nothing inappropriate and they were just friends!

She had an affair with this guy in a previous marriage. She's been having INAPPROPRIATE emails with him while married to you. Why in the world did you back down? Why did you not give Dr. Harley this crucial information?

(BTW, they are not "just friends." That's a cop-out)

In what universe is it appropriate to be "just friends" with a former affair partner?

They are not "just friends."

So, throwing caution to the wind I responded to my wifes txt by knocking on her door and speaking to her.

I appoligised for making her feel harrassed, told her u couldn't help want to be with because i love her and find her irristable.

She started by saying she feels like she has tried not to be rude but will now no longer be participating in family meals and for me not to do anything else for her.

She steered the conversation to wanting to arrange real estate agents at which I responded that i had no intention of selling. When said she didn't want to have to take me to court i asked her if she wanted to have lunch with me. She then just walked into her room and closed door.

I then got this txt msg

I'm really impressed. I think you did great, here! Based on your call with Dr. Harley, it sounds like she does actually have some things in mind you could have been doing and it would probably be helpful for you to be doing those things, even if she protests. A wife in withdrawal is always annoyed at her husband's efforts. Eventually if he wins her back she will appreciate him for it. If she doesn't want to have you keep trying, she doesn't have to choose to talk to you and she doesn't have to choose to stay married to you - but so far she is still talking to you, and she is still married to you.

Just heard Dr. Harley say "she's not going to make it easy for you." My wife is smiling sweetly at me because she remembers treating me exactly like that!

I think continuing to persistently make conversation and try to spend time with her and spend time with her and the kids and work on the things she listed, combined with showing willingness to change with the psychologist as Dr. Harley recommended, is definitely the way to go forward.

Hi Prisca

I gave Dr Harley all the information you mentioned in my emails. He has also pointed out to me that she could be having a relationship and that she if she isn't she would be very open to one even though she is adamant she wants to be by herslef - being her main goal is to find and take care of her own happiness.

The "mistake" was me jumping the gun with exposing this interaction she had with the old "friend".

I def haven't ruled out the possibility that she is having a relationship with someone.

Huh? That's not how I remember it and I just relistened and transcribed information about OM2. (Note: Joyce said she was reading straight from your email vs summarizing)

"I did discover some emails between her and a former male close friend that were somewhat inappropriate that I became upset about."

"I have since discovered this was a mistake that there is no romantic relationship with this man or any other man and realize I have now done more damage to our relationship to our marriage."

You did not refer to him as an OM from her previous marriage. You did not tell them that your W is CURRENTLY trying to meet up with him.

I also didn't hear anything about her having two affairs in her first marriage. I also didn't hear anything about the fact that there is a history of her not allowing you access to her phone.

There is a good possibility that your W is a serial cheater. It's really too bad that you did not give Dr Harley the full story.

"I have since discovered this was a mistake that there is no romantic relationship with this man or any other man and realize I have now done more damage to our relationship to our marriage."


Huh? You have NOT verified this by PI....you did very little snooping and did not have access to your W's phone. The fact that she did not allow you access and had it password locked is a huge red flag.

Syncing her phone to the computer and looking at the history is not adequate. As far as I know there are ways around this. When I was trying to recover texts from my ex WH's phone I could not recovery texts by syncing.

This is page one of this thread.

I read through your first thread (from 2008) today and was amazed at the similarity - you were in denial of an affair back then even though people were SCREAMING at you that a wife wanting "space" and not allowing access to the phone = affair. They tried for pages and pages to get you to snoop.

You came back with the same things you are saying in this thread.

"She is in withdrawal"
"I pushed her away with my tantrums"
"There is a toxic friend"

Now you are back years later and the first thing you told us is that you WILL NOT snoop and there is no affair - even though you were wrong back in 2008.

You have a HUGE issue with DENIAL, dajavude!

This is exactly what I heard. Joyce said she was reading your letter directly rather than summarizing it.

Contact with an old affair partner - no matter how "innocent" you try to spin it (It was an EA....he lives far away, blah blah) will keep your W foggy.

She sounds very much like she is wayward and on the prowl for another OM to me.

You really have no idea what she's up to!

Why in the world you would work so hard to convince Dr Harley that she is in withdrawal when she has a history of having affairs, has been trying to reconnect with an old affair partner and "wants space" and wont' allow you access to her phone is really quite beyond me.

Why not just give him the FACTS and let him make his own determination??

Why would you do that? Who told you to do that?
When are you going to do some serious snooping?

D, I know you are quite fearful of proper snooping - a few times you have mentioned 'damaging the trust'. If she is really one of those people who demand trust in the form of a wall to do secret things behind - it is even more important to snoop!

You should be demonstrating that you are interested in her, on every level. I know that if I were packing my bags I would expect a man who loved me to be on high alert, checking out my every move and every word. There is simply nothing wrong with that. If she does catch you out you can tell her you find her behaviour with her old OM to be fundamentally worrying to any husband in love. You can tell her she can trust you to have both steely eyes on this situation and that you will not let this sleaze near her.

Anything less is a lazy uncaring husband and you are not that.

If she asks you about future trust, you would tell her you expect full, voluntary transparency for your future marriage. Get that concept cemented in now.

Don't tip your hand - snoop quietly, but don't be afraid of being 'caught'. If she objects to snooping its because she doesn't want to be caught.

There was three emails - she summarised the last one. The detail about her other behaviour was in the previous emails that were not read out.

Dr Harley has advised OM is a distinct possibility. I accept that.

I don't deny this is a distinct possibility. I am doing what I can but I have limited options without causing a total breakdown of trust. I can't very well just walk up to my wife and demand she give me her phone.

Because when I found the emails it was like a hot knife was thrust into my stomach and I reacted emotionally for the first time since being told.

I am doing my best regarding finding information but I have no option where I live for a P.I so its difficult.

True, but she would also protest because in our history, and all other areas of her life, she practices an extreme high level of extending respect and courtesy to others. She is a highly ethical person which is why I am realistic, but very surprised by her innappropriate contact

She would take an invasion of her privacy very seriously and if there is no OM I would just be reinforcing her determination that I am the wrong person for her.

That is fine. There is no such thing as "privacy" in marriage. So you need to snoop and find out if there is an affair. Otherwise you are wasting our time. We can't help you if the real problem is an affair and we are focusing on need meeting. I heard your radio show but it seemed clear to me that you weren't open with Dr Harley about the strong likelihood your wife is having an affair.

If that really is her deal breaker then you will never have a safe marriage.

Do you see a connection between someone insisting on privacy and serial cheating?

Seriously? She had had 2 affairs in her previous marriage, and is now talking to one of the OM. She has very poor boundaries, and has no qualms with seeking male attention from outside her marriage. There's nothing to be surprised about here.

Well it's probably all moot now.

She has turned nasty now and has started doing mean things.

She has stopped communicating with me except for very specific functional things. She has made arrangements to sell the car I drive for work. Both cars are in her name. I have asked her why she is try to do things to upset me when the cars etc can wait until a final settlement is reached and she just says it's not about me it's about following a plan.

I have tried to ask her to be calm and reasonable but because I need a car for my job.

Problem I have now is that we swapped cars because mine is stationwagon and she said she needed it for clearing some rubbish. What she was really doing is getting insurance quotes for hail damage to write the car off. I have her car and she has now messaged that she wants to swap but won't give me something in writing to say she won't do something unilaterally.

I am now feeling like I have to keep her car and do a big Love busting thing that will make her angry.

This does sound very wayward.

If you snoop, she may a) decide you're not the trusting sap for her or b) get very mad at you - two positions she already holds.

She has her foot out of the door. You have nothing to lose and everything to gain by uncovering an affair.

If an affair is causing her behaviour, the behaviour all ends when you bust up the affair.

If there is an undiscovered affair, nothing you do personally will work. She will also take you to the cleaners legally.

When she's in love (as per your history) she is probably just super. When the love bank wanes however, or gets some competition, it is every man for himself as her wider history shows. At that point she will demonize you to justify doing whatever she wants.

Essentially means i need to steal her phone or catch her in the act. Two pretty unlikely avenues.

Our interactions today were very stressful and charged. I have refused to return her car until she supplies a written assurance that includes (CC'ing) members of our immediate family. She has refused to do that so I will be keeping her car. She loves her car. No, really. She has given it a name!

Won't that get you into trouble whwn the car is in her name?

both cars are in her name but legally she doesn't have the right to sell or dispose of any assets without my agreement until there has been a financial settlement reached.

She didn't bank on me figuring out she had the intention of leaving me without a car as a way of deliberately getting back at me for being so nice to her while I had her car

See a lawyer asap

Yep. Monday. Sister just advised me to take photos of everything in the house as well.

Your wife is trying to goad you into filing for divorce with the car issues because once you have filed, she will not be permitted to dispose of any marital assets no matter whose name they are titled in.

It is typical of a wayward to not to want to be the one to file. For some reason they want to show that the divorce was not their fault even though it obviously was. Somehow not filing makes the divorce not their fault.

Why are you not able to find out who the OM is?

It's 3 month marriage, no kids together, she cheated in previous marriage and possibly, is having an affair now...

Is it worth to save?

That was a question posed to me by Dr Harley.

When you love someone so much you do believe it's worth saving no matter what. Just like they would believe their feelings for someone else justify leaving

Would you please answer this?

I would suggest that when your spouse won't tell you when you ask, that the time it takes relates to the discovery options options available.

The options I have available to me have thus far failed to uncover an OM. All I have is a strong suspicion and many people telling it's obvious.

Onbiously time will tell but I don't have time.

She is now opting to stay in temporary accomodation with my stepson to, her words, get away from my harrassment.

So my pursuing has ended our co-habitation. It has also led to her refusing to communicate directly with me and to her feeling resentful enough to attempt to dispose of the car I drive. This has been delayed through astute action by me but the current landscape for marrital recovery is looking very bleak.

Can you afford a PI?

Dajavude,

It is obvious that you still love her, but you will need to make a wise decision with your own future and the future of any children you may beget with her. Get the full information about what is going on first and if possible about her past to decide if you are up for a lifetime of heartache. Abusive people can be very seductive and attractive as life partners, but will not lead to a happy life.

Where i live is just a town. Closest major city is 7 hours away. No PI here

Yes, I wanted to grow old with her. I feel like she is my soul mate. But I have seriously let her down in time and family commitment and she doesn't want future with me.

I am 44 and she is 39, there were never any plans for children.

But yeah, I have driven her further away now. There is very little chance that we will ever sleep under the same roof again. I can only hope there is no OM and that my love and caring responses will be the last things she remembers about me.

Hope is not a plan. You have to diagnose the situation correctly and prepare for the best and the worst.


If she has an OM then you will continue to be on the backburner and used and abused for anything she can get from you. A husband in Plan A fighting an affair knows this, what to expect and has put measures in place to destroy the A. That's because nothing works if an A is on.

Are you really willing to put in months of worthless effort without tackling the main cause? Surely if the marriage is not worth snooping for, is it really worth saving?

You could have hired a PI when she was on business in Sydney. It's obvious you don't want to let go of plan hope.

I have spent a lot of time, effort and money searching for evidence. Short of stalking her and getting arrested or her admitting it, it is what it is.

I have already gone against my better judgement in maintaining a regime she perceived as harrassment. What that has achieved is no direct communication and her moving out into temporary accomodation.

I am now going to focuss my energy on my daughter and trying to let the dust settle. For my wife to deliberately seek to do something damaging to me tells me she is in a very distresed and emotional state. On ballance I can't justify the cost of blindly antagonising her any further for no convievable benefit. For exactly the reasons you mention; if there is an A it's pointless. If there is no A then obviously it would have been better for the chances of saving the marriage to be in same house; a lower level plan A near her would have been better than an absent one.

Not at all. You have an excellent chance by finding and exposing the A. If you were to do this your odds would improve dramatically.

I don't see why the risk of angering her is seen as more of a risk. Women don't leave marriages because they are angry. They put an awful lot of effort into pretending to though if they have a secret.

The average WW puts a great deal of effort into making you feel that the way you breathe is annoying.

Her initial complaints were about your lack of interest. Now you are too interested? Doesn't add up.

Given that she is now caring for her son fulltime under the same roof the only opportunity I would have to find anything would be to somehow find where she is staying and follow her everyday.

What would my Plan A behavior look like now? Bearing in mind she might just not want a future with the selfish version of me.

I did have a question. I emailed the guy that she was having that flirting correspondence with pointing out what I found, telling him it was innapropriate and essentially to not contact her. He hasn't responded. Should I follow up with a phone call?

Plan A involves exposure and a commitment to meet future needs.

I don't understand what the 'selfish version' of you is or what you are currently displaying that is selfish.



Confronting the OM is a very good idea but you should save it until you have evidence and have already exposed.

Without exposure it's a bit toothless.

That is what most people have to do. What is the problem with that?

Hang on - I thought you had GPS on her?

It's not a problem. I meant she needs to be home for him. Previoulsy I would be home so she wouldn't necesarily need to worry about him, meals, etc. Now, if she were to try to see someone it would be harder.

Not if she is inviting him over to meet her son!

Negative.

What happened to this Intel source?

I'm missing her so much I feel like razors are chewing my insides out. I would do anything to change this and make her happy. That's not enough for her and I can't do anymore than I have to catch her.

That approach does not work with a Wayward Wife. It did not work with your first wife and it won't work here. I've never seen plan nice work.

I have seen wives furious at exposure and snooping though. Telling their husbands they despised them and they had ruined all chances. They weren't the least bit chastened at getting caught.

However I have seen that approach work and lead to a recovery where they considered their husbands heroes.


Equally, even if Plan Nice were to work, her privacy policy would mean that you would only have a short time period of recovery before an affair starts up.

You do see the similarities in behaviour with your first wife by this time, I take it?

Affair behaviour is always very similar.

In a phonecall with my sister yesterday I learned my wife was planning to leave me in Jan. The event that precipitated this was my refusal to get up out of bed at 5am to see off eldest stepson as he left for college. My sister convinced her not and my wife gave me the list and married me in march.

Given this information there is a possibility that my selfish behaviour and lack of commitment to spending time, talking to, giving affection and compliments, gifts, family commitment, house hold suport, have depleted her LB to the point where, in her letter, she says she has given all she can and is exhausted.

Is it possible for her to now clearly want out if I didn't meet her expectations based on a list she gave me, that in dr Harley's words, were the keys to her heart?

This does not add up. Your fianc�e had cold feet about the marriage. Nothing to do with you getting out of bed on a particular day. She may have had cold feet because she had met or re-met OM. Nobody backs out of a marriage because their fianc� did not say goodbye to a child that is not even his. By the way, he was not your stepson at that time.


Your wife sounds like a strong and determined woman, she does not sound like the kind of person who would give up after such a short time. There is another man in her life and I would bet that the affair started or restarted back in January.

My wife was the one that wanted to get married. I held out for the 4 years we lived together before asking her because it was important to her.

She knew I didn't want or need a ceremony to be commited to her.

If there was an affair that was real reason why tell my sister of her plan to leave and then give me the list of her important needs for her happiness?

You already told us that she was communicating back with the OM from her first M in October 2014 - and started complaining about doubts with going forward w the M due to household chores. So what is the point in analyzing it further?

You know what Dr Harley says about affairs being an addiction, and how C will cause a wayward to become foggy, yes??

I re-read your entire thread and what struck me is that so many of the things you post contradict what Dr Harley views as a healthy attitude in M.

Exposure doesn't drive a person away. If a wayward leaves the M due to exposure, Dr Harley would say that you only sped up the inevitable....that the person would not have changed their attitude/behavior in the M.

Accountability is a GOOD thing in M, Dajavude. That's what helps keep people on the straight and narrow. Your WW obviously has a long history with having a SSL and poor boundaries with men, dating all the way back to her first marriage. If your exposure drove her away, all that means is that she is rejecting accountability and transparency, and it's not a M worth fighting for anyway.

The reason this really stuck out to me is.....you already rejected the forum advice one time years ago and obviously didn't embrace and learn about MB - or else you wouldn't have gotten in to such a mess again.

The living together before marriage, the IB on both your parts were concerning but the most alarming is that you are embracing the "cozy" parts of MB (how to bring a spouse out of withdrawal by meetin' needs, etc) just like you did back in 2008. And you are still trying to point to all these other issues when the most glaring is that your WW still has contact with an OM?

Dajavude, if you gain only ONE thing from bein on the forum this time - please learn ALL of MB - get yourself SAA, read the SAA articles. Not just the "cozy" MB101 parts of the program. Cherry picking does not work. This will help you with your personal recovery, in case your WW does decide to give your M another shot (hint: do not allow her to have a SSL anymore and have C with old affair partners) and most definitely will help you in case you decide to divorce, date and marry again (again, obvious hints: do not live together before marriage and do not waste time with women who divorced over their affairs and still talk to their OM, etc).

Good luck!

I can't stop anything without proof. Her phone backup had no proof on it so eben stealing her phone somehow might not provide evidence if she is deleting everything.

I litteralty would have have to physically catch her.

At this point there is no hard proof. I need to know what is the best thing to do now with the information I have.

If she isn't having an affair then what level or ballance of contact should I strive for?

Would I be better off letting her know I will not keep harrasing her so that she may feel comfortable to return to the house at some point? Wouldn't it be better for me to have a pleasant in house seperation where if she calmed down, i stopped pursuing her, and she allowed me to prepare meals etc?

This probably won't hsppen again anyway, but if it was possible it wouldn't be with me ignoring her request for me to stop annoying her.

Well, then whole hog Marriage Builders is your only way to go.

Radio show, every day, for life.

I have SAA, HNHN, and LB books.

If she is having an A and i cant find proof i am screwed. If she isn't having an affair and we are appart and she refuses to even communicate with me, I am screwed.

So I have taken steps that will give me the best chance in both circumstances. Keep snooping and respect my wifes wishes for me to stop my direct harrassing pursuit.

I have emailed this morning to communicate this. She has promised me in a long email there is no one else I have promised to not harrass her. She will be considering returning to the house in a couple of weeks after house sitting a friends house.

She and I are now txting and she has offered to discuss an issue i needed advice on regarding my daughter and her real mum.

Yesterday there was no communication and there was animosity and lashing out by her because I wasn't respecting her wishes.

This gives me a chance to have pleasant respectful communication with her. If there is no A then this is my only chance to have contact and make meaningful deposits.

You keep asking questions but are you considering the answers?

You will have to be a little bit clearer in the point you are trying to make. My understanding is that my situation, as in life, is not black and white. Or maybe that is the point you are trying make?

The point I'm making is that you don't seem to be pondering the advice you are receiving. You ask...they answer, and it seems to pass you by...

I don't see any sign that you're listening.

I take that to mean that the advice is she is def in a relationship with someone else and im not doing enough to find out who?

Yes.

Because there are ways. AND you can't face an enemy who is always taking you by surprise. You will lose the war.

Also, Dr. Harley whose life's work is to save marriages asked you if it's really worth saving. Plus the forum. Your answer was good. But until you know for sure what you are dealing with, you can't fully decide.

My main point was that you weren't really responding to the posters' advice. Only asking more questions. You are stir crazy because you have no plan and can't make one without more Intel.

I will try to follow her as much as possible

Found her on a walk this morning. I think it was her, she was walking by herself and then started walking with a man. I'm not entirely certain but she might have seen me.

But she didn't act like she had. That is she/he didn't come back in my direction but they weren't holding hands or anything.

I hope she didn't see me

Did you recognize this man?

Not from the distance I saw them.

I'm off to the appointment with wife and her psychologist. I am already feeling sick and all knotted up in my stomach like it's the most important job interview x1000.

I really don't want to get emotional but I don't think I am going to be able to hold it together.

Had the appointment.

All quite surreal. The psychologist wasn't the marriage wrecking ogre I had pinned him as. In fact he seemed very impressed with my contrition and self awareness and was probing my wife regarding opportunities for future reconciliation.

She was in tears throughout the session but is still steadfastly maintaining the relationship is over.

When she recounted her feelings of exhaustion and that she felt like she had been carrying the burden of the parenting and family support role and just felt like we had different priorities, I just listened and acknowledged.

When I saw her in the waiting room she smiled and didn't seem agitated by anything, and nothing was mentioned in the session regarding me following her so I think I must have somehow gone unnoticed.

She even TXT me after the session to thank me for coming.

So I am going to keep doing my best to follow her before and after hours - we have at least 3-4 weeks of living apart and then she has mooted we may need to discuss some arrangements regarding the house which I would imagine would be to do with planning for its sale.

In the mean time I am going to focus on spending as much time and activities with youngest step son as that would be the only avenue for deposits she can't block.

Stepson is staying tomorrow for a gaming night. Strangely, wife has offered to take my daughter somewhere.

Would have been an ideal opportunity for her to arrange a rendevous ?

She has more than just that one priority though if in an affair. The main one being reputation management. Or getting you out of the house. Either of those motives could be at play in getting your daughter to herself.

Her behaviour is very strange right now.

Radio Clip of Dejavude's Show
Segment #2
Segment #3
Segment #4
Segment #5

She and stepson have are already living elsewhere. She got fed up with my continued "harassment" and booked into temporary accommodation. She has also arranged to house sit a friends house for 2-3 weeks I believe. So it's even stranger that given two days where stepson will be with me she makes arrangements with my daughter.

Last week She had to come to our house to collect clothes etc and contacted my brother to escort her as she felt I had become agitated. I had refused to return her car becuase she was then threatening to dispose of the car I drive as retribution for me ignoring her request to stop pursuing her.

I had over heard a conversation she had with stepson where he asked if I was keeping the car and she said that if I didn't stop pissing her off she would get rid of it. So when I asked her about her plans she refused to ensure she wasn't up to something hence why I refused to return her car.

She had a conversation with my brother where he point blank asked her about her intentions and when she denied it he pointed out that the conversation had been overheard at which point she apparently broke down.

Since then, I contacted her and she apologized and things have settled down. I have swapped cars with her and she is no longer pushing for house sale and settlement process to get completed so quickly.

That, coupled with our attending the psychologist appointment together where she behaved very carringly towards my grief, and she is open to attending another session with her or for me to attend by myself. She texted me after the session to thank me for coming.

I would really like her to feel comfortable returning to the house before things get finalised as I think that I have a better chance if we are at least seeing each other and being able to co-habitate the house rather than me continuing to "harrass" her. I think her fear of a mentally agitated spurned spouse would prevent her returning.

You are doing wishful thinking here.
She is divorcing you and you have to find out the real reason yesterday.

Yes, I do have hope that there is not another romantic relationship. I am still searching for evidence. That's the best I can do while she is living elsewhere. I'm not sure what else there is I can do?

The alternative is that I continue the invitations and affectionate messages that pushed her out of the house in the first place and would likely result in her not returning at any point.

Further to this. Agressively pursuing my wife will not, by itself, stop an affair if she is having one. In either scenario it will be a love buster.

Given that I have very little if any balance left - she obviously still cares, then I need to avoid Love busters at all costs. I also have very limited opportunities to make deposits.

Going to the session yesterday I would say was a deposit. Spending time tonight with stepson, and getting them a Stand alone Wi-Fi access point so they can have internet where they are staying, would be deposits.

I don't want to ruin that by badgering her agressively for the sake of it. It will just cause resentment.

Unless someone can make an argument for the benefits of having her get agitated all over again then I can't see that I am able to affect a better set of circumstances at the moment.

It's certainly not going to improve my chances of catching her.

She has night to herself and is spending evening at her best friends house. She is 63.

Just some observation...

Your stepson is staying for gaming night to play with you? Like 2 teenagers? You mentioned you play video games - and I kind of understand why your wife saying she is the parent in the relationship. Gaming is highly addictive - and my best guess it will always a problem in relationship, unless you are in relationship with another gamer.

The other thing. Dr Harley said that separation will highly likely lead to permanent separation. Do you think helping your wife to settle at her new place (providing WiFi) would help to bring her back to the house?

The boys and i spent a lot of time bonding playing games so it was both a positive and s negative.

Wi fi mainly for stepson so he can have internet access. I looked at as a family support thing.

Conflict avoidance will not save your marriage either if leads you to avoid implementing a marriage saving plan.

What would you suggest i do exactly?

But what is it you are doing that is harassment and aggressive exactly? It is more aggressive to demand a spouse leave, deny his own feelings and smile upon her while she takes up all the property she can get hands on.

All you've done is express a preference to continue the marriage and offered to address her complaints. That is not harassment nor aggressive. Nor is it surprising just three months after the wedding.

I am somebody who would be harassed by mild contact with my ex. I give out clear unequivocal signals about that such as changing my number, the locks, finalising a divorce, avoiding all contact with him and his family.

She has arranged sessions for marital recovery with you. She's not done no matter how much she pouts and tries to pretend otherwise.

Such hyperbole about harassment does not match her actions.

The harrassment comes from me following the advice here to pursue her with invitations for outings, events etc, walks, meals, making her breakfast, commenting on her appearance, telling her i love her, sending romantic txt msgs etc.

She repeatedly asked me to stop doing it because she wasn't going to change her mind. The last straw was her saying she now considered it harrassment and demanded it stop.

When I spoke to her and appologised for making her feel harrassed, that it wasn't my intention she said it didn't matter what my intention was it was how she perceived it. She then wanted to segway into discussing real rstate agents at which I responded by asking if she had plans for lunch.

This resulted in her shutting down all direct communication with me and moving our of our home.

The psycholigists appointment was not meant as marriage councilling, she wanted me to go so I could gain a better understanding of why she wants to end our relationship so I would better accept it rather than fight to save it.

I have stopped "harrassing" her with invitations and msgs, and am trying to focus in making deposits she can't refuse, ie, spending time on relationship with Stepson, which is actually making me feel better because of the positive way we are getting on. So even if things keep going south I will have built a stronger bond with him.

I am hoping she will feel comfortable enough to return to our home once the three week house sitting is up.

She will want to discuss financial settlement stuff then but at least we'll be in direct contact. I think that is more important than beligerently pestering her.

She sent me a txt msg after the psych session to thank me for coming.

I responded with this email this morning which she hasn't responded to.


Hey **EDIT**,

Thankyou for inviting me to attend the session with **EDIT** yesterday. I have to admit I was expecting a much less welcoming and interaction. I came away feeling grateful for his approach and a renewed sense of sadness at myself for this avoidable loss.


Listening to you express your deep sense of inner sadness it was very hard for me to not reach out and cradle you next to me. The realisation that you have felt lonely, abandoned, and unsupported by me for so long fills me with deep shame and regret.

I have been behaving independently throughout our relationship and have taken for granted that you would always be there for me and take up the slack I left in my wake. This has been a massive wakeup call for me. I am very aware now of what you need from me and I will do whatever it takes to learn to meet those needs.

Stepping up and taking responsibility for myself, our marriage, and family, is a gift and not a burden or unsustainable change. I have already gained from the changes I have made in relationships with all the kids, especially the boys. It was one of the most moving moments since meeting you and the boys, that me opening up and sharing my feelings to **EDIT** resulted in him expressing gratitude and respect towards me. I didn't have my father around to guide me so that is probably a large part of what has informed my reservations at being overly affectionate towards them.

Equally, my positive approaches towards **EDIT** have all been met with enthusiasm and of course **EDIT** has been screaming out for my attention and involvement, even more so now. Even though this is an especially stressful time for her I can see she is gaining comfort and calm from my steadiness.

Even though we are apart at the moment, this is an opportunity for us to gain some inner peace and calm; to regroup, reengage, and renegotiate and build on the positives we have together to a better more enriching and satisfying marriage and life partnership.

I know you are in a different and difficult space right now and I don't want to put pressure on you. I want you to know that my love and caring for you has not changed and I am here for you. I want to be there to support you and make sure you are happy, feel supported and fulfilled.



http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8114_plan.html


Love
**EDIT**

From common sense point of view, your communications is broken - your reply just indicated that you ignored what she said completely. You can pretend that nothing happens but it can hardly help.

You need to acknowledge what she says but you don't need to agree to that. Just reply what Dr Harley advised you - you love her more than life itself and all you ask is just one last chance which anyone deserves. BTW, your actions should follow your words...

On another note, is your stepson happy to live in a new place? Would he prefer to move back home?

I have already played the "one last chance" card. I sent her an email after the radio show which she rejected emphatically.

I'm sure the stepson would prefer his home, but he also feels he needs to support his mum. I'll keep inviting him and I know my wife will encourage him to do what he feels but he won't just abandon her.

It seems to me that telling her "all I am asking for is one last chance *which anyone deserves*" is disrespectful. It implies that if she disagrees with the idea that anyone deserves a last chance she is wrong.

You can go on asking her, and expressing things, but maybe keep them a bit shorter than that last email. Even if it's not there in the content, the length could be seen as a akin to a lecture/trying to educate.

Something like "I was glad to be able to attend the session. I am committed to doing everything I can to be a better husband to you." And then send her another short but sweet message as often as you can, and in response to whatever she sends you.

There is a bit of a cross over there. My last message to her after our session did not include a "last chance" request. I did that two weeks ago after my radio interview with the Harley's.

She wasn't swayed at all by that approach. She is very intellectually determined to follow this path. Dr Harley's take is that she is either genuinely very dissapointed that our marriage three months ago didn't change anything or that there is/was another man she was thinking was an option and had "buyers remorse" and felt she should have picked him.

It makes it very difficult to combat both a resentment and disapointment as well as an idealistic relationship she is planning to have.

I can find no evidence of a present relationship with OM.


I do think you have a good point regarding the approach to make with her. That would be the least aggravating way to still show affection to her.

When I was out exercising this morning and thinking about all the things I have done to destroy her love for me one of the things I most regret is the way I behaved prior to getting married. I didn't want to get married and one of the pre-wedding preparations was making 1000 paper cranes. I made such a pathetic contribution that frankly she should have walked away then. I behaved like [censored].

So today I resolved to make 1000 paper cranes and hang them in our bedroom in the hope that if she returns I can make 1000 micro transactions into her heart and try to heal some of the scars I inflicted.

I've calculated that at approx 3 mins per crane it will take approx 50 hours. She will be house sitting for 3 weeks so that's about 2.5 hours per day.

Achievable

Why didn't you want to get married and what caused your change of mind?

I think "marriage" is just a piece of paper. Commitment comes from within someone. I always told my "wife" I didn't need a piece of paper or a ceremony to commit myself totally to her. But it was important to her. So I proposed.

I guess I was proven correct. How much commitment can someone have if they'll go to all the trouble and expense of a ceremony, invite friends and relatives that travel hundreds kilometers and expense to attend, to just end it with no prior discussion 3 months later.

Frankly I think all it was for her was a self actualising event that she could tick off. Obviously it held absolutely no sacredness or genuine life commitment.

And I don't understand the paper crane thing. Too much effort for 1 (not 1000) micro transaction.

***EDIT*** Don't waste your time on one 'big' thing, but use it for lots of small (and meaningful) things.
***EDIT***

The cranes were important to her. Me not participating enthusiastically, and in fact being grumpy and obnoxiously deriding their value, communicated a selfishness and a lack of care for something important to her.

Do you think me folding 1000 cranes will have no effect and be a complete waste of time?

Complete waste of time. Your actions told your fianc�e that you did not care about the marriage and did not believe in the vows you were making.

That is still the case today and will be after 1000 cranes. She will just throw them away.

Were important, past tense. Do you think you can compensate the lack of care and commitment you showed her back then by folding those cranes now?

You think like a lot of men, big, visible and/or expensive things contribute to the love bank and small things don't count. For women, those "small" things are important, because with simple acts, a considerate husband can express his care and love.

You want to meet her emotional needs. I think folding 1000 cranes will be a complete waste of time and paper, unless paper cranes are top of her emotional needs.

Women seem so much less able to ignore the lack of paperwork or security. I know so many self styled modern women who hate living with their boyfriends, but feel they have to serve out an interview period first. Why? Half hour ceremony and everyone knows where they stand.



It's really often the case that the bigger the wedding the weaker the commitment. Not always, but if you are willing to delay vows to save up for flowers and frills you are making the decision that the flowers mean more than the vows. Bringing relatives hundreds of miles doesn't exactly say anything about your commitment to the other person either. Dr Hs article on the three purposes of a wedding sums this up perfectly. Two of the purposes cost a fortune, the commitment purpose is so cheap its almost free.

You can legally endow someone with your goods and promise to witnesses that they can rebuke you pretty hard with infidelity upon exposure for very little cash or wedding planning. I have no idea why people make such a circus of it.



I wouldn't try to read her mind or motives: you're always better off getting the facts. Sure, she may have been noncommittal but we don't really know what her mind state was or is. There's a lot of suspicious stuff but very little independent evidence.

When buyers marry they aren't committing to 'stay together no matter what' they are committing to 'extraordinary care for life'. She may be leaving because she doesn't feel that commitment IS there. In which case you are addressing that. When you say you've always been committed, it's worth thinking - committed to what? Care or staying?

Equally she could have remained uncommitted and available because of the memory of her affair - that's a strong possiblity and certainly the little evidence you've got points to it.

thanks for your opinion. I take it you hold marriage as some kind of spiritual / religious sacred act?

I don't. Obviously neither does my wife

Folding the cranes is my way of saying sorry and showing i am prepared to take action.

It also gives me something practical to channel my hope into. Without hope that something I do or say might make a difference then I would just give up.

See, you know her better than we do but it wouldn't have a big effect on me.

First off, grand gestures do very little to demonstrate the type of daily change and care a woman needs. They do express an 'I'm serious and will do what it takes' message, so I wouldn't rule them out completely.

I just wouldnt want to see a reminder of an unenthusiastic decision that didn't work very well.

The reason you were grumpy and uncooperative were because you didn't want to do it. That's fine. You can't spend your life continuing to agree to do stuff you dislike.

It's better if you just say no, and brainstorm alternatives with your wife. I don't think your error was agreeing to the cranes and failing to hide your lack of enthusiasm. I think it was failing to be honest and just say no. Failing to come up with genuine enthusiasm for an alternative. Confidence and care involve just saying no. Sometimes a cheerful no is better than a yes with the grumps.

Commitment:


Is 1000 cranes a realistic demonstration of the type of care she can expect in marriage. Maybe, only you can say what genuinely makes you happy.

Not at all and before discovering MB, I thought exactly as you do now.


Hang on, isn't that incredibly disrespectful? You have no idea what your wife actually feels.



When my first marriage was failing, XH would show up every evening with flowers. It got to the point where I think if I saw another flower, I would throw up. It felt to me as if the flowers were his way of avoiding the real work of building a relationship of extraordinary care.

Have you read any of Dr Harley's books?

What are her top needs?
What are her goals in life?
What delights her?

Is she still emailing with him?

Honestly, I am not finding your input helpful. You haven't read my post from start as you would know the answer to the last question. If you have some wisdom you would like to pass on I would really appreciate that. Criticising my efforts out of context to my story is not helpful to me.

Time, family commitment, affection, admiration, appreciation, gifts.

Her career is very important to her. She self actualises by running - has completed a 1/2 marathon and i think she would like to achieve doing a full one. Looking after her boys is also primary.

Gifts, people doing things for her without being asked.

All of the top things are whatbI tried for two weeks that drove her out of the house and into conflict with me over the cars, no communication etc. i have been focussing on trying to interact and spend time with stepson but i have limited opportunity there.

Hence the cranes seemed like a good use of rime because she just rejects every other direct overture.

I don't have access to emails anymore but I know she told me he forwarded my email that I sent him.

I have been debating whether to call him.

I've had a similar experience to living well though. I wanted my ex husband's time and to be taken on dates at the weekends. He'd ignore small opportunities and after ages went by he'd take me on a grand gesture date. Something too expensive to be repeated every week.

Grand gestures sometimes suggest 'don't expect this very often'.



If you get something out of it, then it won't be time wasted. Again you know her best. A wife in withdrawal tends to be highly suspicious and consider most gestures fake though.

The best thing is consistency and persistence. Giving her the impression you're not going anywhere, and if she hits a life bump or feels lonely she need only turn to you.

She's going to reject you as much as possible to test your resilliency. If she's in withdrawal.

Affection is sure to be one of her top emotional needs, and affection is symbolic acts of care, like this.

A few paper cranes a day as an affectionate gesture, while working the rest of the program, might become a very meaningful thing for her.

I want her to feel safe to return to the house.

He first husband didn't accept relationship ending and during a visit by her to their house to collect the boys she was tied up and badly injured in an assault where he eventually killed himself.

She is going to be hyper sensitive to any behaviour by me that suggests any kind of mental agitation or instability. Hence why my positive pursuit and affectionate overtures seemed like denial and agitated her.

Is pursuing her and having her never return to the house better ? My instinct tells me not. My instinct was to tone down my behavior the day she decided to leave but I was swayed by Marcos to never stop.

Marcos' enthusiasm and personal success is very persuasive.

Something you might consider is giving her 3-4 cranes a day for a year ... You'll make the affection lovebank deposits, but over time to show stability and commitment.

I'd keep after it. I'd keep persistently folding cranes and keep wooing her and keep inviting her to spend time with me and attempting to have non-threatening conversations with her.

She can decide for herself if it feels unsafe or not, and she can easily put a stop to it any time she decides to do that.

I think this would be a great way to show stability and affection over time.

Markos did something very similar with me, except it was short love post-it notes left for me every morning.

It angered me at first, and I found it extremely frustrating. But the slow trickle of affection helped to break through my walls.

I think that you're right and the cranes will mean something to her. It's affection, one that meant something to her at one point. You won't be wasting time by doing them. But I do think you should consider dragging it out over time. Show her you're in this for the long haul.

Whoa there Dejavoodoo!

Have you considered that this might be a great time to practice responding respectfully to a differing input or opinion? The way I interpreted it, Living Well was offering some suggestions to for you to consider.

If you are responding to your wife's opinions in the same way that you've responded to Living Well, you are likely wrecking your chances with your wife.

Here are the hidden lovebusters from your response to Living Well.

You were disagreeable.
Then you put LW in her place by telling her she was short info so her input couldn't possibly have merit.
Then you said she lacked wisdom.
Then you said you are not open to input (criticism) especially if it doesn't fit YOUR context.
You turned the conversation from an exchange into a debate.

The good news is that these love busting habits can be turned around and then you will be in an effective plan A. Of course you Will need to add courtesy and small acts of affection.

Thankyou both for that fantastic suggestion. I am def going to do that. I am sure I can find her car near where she works so I can leave little boxes of them there. I could also post them to her work daily as well.

I am being honest. I am letting her know that her attempts to provide wisdom are not being communicated in a way that i can understand.

The alternative is for me to ignore people that seem intent on starting arguments.

I know that you are genuine and honest. That's why I shared my thoughts with you.

Would you please share What it is that you see as "starting an argument?"

Livingwell was discouraging him from showing affection to his wife, and telling him that his effort was a complete waste of time. Her reasoning is that her exhusband's flowers did nothing for her.

If all that Dejavude did was make cranes for his wife, then yes, it would be a waste of time. But if done as part of a bigger plan, MB's Plan A, then it is a great effort to make.

Here is a post for you to consider, Dejavude. It helped markos:

This

Okay. Thanks Prisca. I see that way of looking at it.

I also am adding that even if what she said didn't fit for him, it was an opportunity for him to brush up on his MB skills. Even if LW had been trying to start an argument, he could practice exploring LW's perspective by asking clarifying questions instead of engaging in the argument or debating.

What do you think about that idea, Dejavude?

I did that in my first response I believe

Actually, re-reading LW simply jumped into answer a clairfying question I asked of another point about cranes.

What I think is that most people have good intentions but sometimes the communication is not received, especially in absence of non-verbal ques, in the manner intended.

I feel that by doing this Paper Crane thing, you should ONLY be doing it for yourself.

What will her reaction be when she walks into the bedroom and sees them all hanging there now?

One very Strong possibility is she will freak out. Why in the Heck are you doing this chit now? Too Little Too Late, Buster!!!

Men seem to initially think that grandiose gestures will right the ship. Oh, how thoughtful of you!

NOT!!!

Why wasn't that involvement there when she needed you to be involved?

I really think it will create a new level of Coldness.

It is a combination of ALL Seemingly Small Things, done repetitively, over and over and over again, WITHOUT Any Love Busters.

You are probably correct - it's all more than likely too late and a waste of time.

I agree you shouldnt scare or come on heavy. But you have to weigh that against the fact all withdrawn wives find practically everything scary. Particularly successful needs meeting. Withdrawal is a wall to protect from the pain of expectations. Consistency is the only way for her to trust the change and to do that you have to get over the hump of being pushed away.

She should never feel she has no say about your attentions. If she asks you not to do x, stop. Switch to y instead. So if flowers bug her, switch to post it's. If texts bother her, change to email.

I actually find the crane idea beautifully romantic but she could easily freak at it if it happens all at once. I like Markos' ideas of them being little and often. Maybe you could even write notes inside. Just light stuff like maybe a joke.

Actually, after seeing other opinions expressed with proper rational, I now am leaning towards the dually proposed minimized, yet consistent Daily gestures that both Marcos and Prisca expressed.

In THEIR variation, it is NOT Just One Big Grand Gesture.

It is showing consistency, WITHOUT being a ONE AND DONE gesture.

I like it.

Now, WHAT DR. HARLEY BOOKS HAVE YOU READ SO FAR, COMPLETELY, FROM FRONT COVER TO THE BACK?

You have avoided answering that question directly posted to you 2-3 times already.

LTL

P.S.
I have read your entire topic thread from Beginning to End.

Not very well then. I am not sure why my answering a question that I have answered before is relevent but just out of generosity of spirit, Love busters, his needs her needs, surviving an affair.

FYI if you yell at me again I'll just ignore any further input you provide.

I don't know if this helps your ideas mill at all, but one of the best affection gestures I've had was when I told my boyfriend I hated going into my empty house alone after dark. He fitted up timer lights so I never walk into a dark house. Even months later I smile to myself when they come on. It's crazy but I feel cared for and protected. Of course it wouldn't work if there wasn't general consistency from him in other ways too.

Part of it is that its part of my day, I experience it over and over again even though his effort was just the one time. The love bank (or rocks in the river) are not based on how often you do something, but how often she experiences it.

I know a friend who bought a tapestry her husband doesn't like. She sees this as a one time lovebuster, but because he sees it every day, it's a daily one.

I think often we have guys here show up wanting to know the one thing they can do to turn that around. They brainstorm that idea, ask people what they think of it, and then do that one thing.

And it doesn't work because the Love Bank requires a lot more deposits than that.

As a part of a complete Plan A (meet emotional needs and avoid love busters), I think this gesture is fantastic. There's a good chance it'll make love bank deposits (DV is the best judge of that that we have here), and it won't make love bank withdrawals in his wife's account in his love bank for him to do it (in other words, it's not a sacrifice). The only way to make it better is to turn it into a frequent occurrence.

Keep in mind the people helping you are volunteers giving their own time. It's quite easy to read a thread carefully and still completely miss certain details. Sometimes it's best when the answers are provided as succinctly as possible so they can be spotted, and even then sometimes they can still be missed.

Try reading someone else's thread and keeping track of all the details.

Which it looks like I did miss some of the details...reading on my phone. I honed in on one response and it's tone.

Sorry Dejavoodoo.

And I like the idea of the paper crane. But based on the past, expect it to bring both positive and negative emotions up for her. It will remind her of a negative experience and will hopefully give her the message of humility, affection, and change.

Worth keeping in mind that it takes longer to build up deposits than it does to break them down.

Like how it's easier to spend money than build savings.

But she doesn't even have to willingly accept them for it to work. Just because it's not visible to you, or even to her yet, doesn't mean those rocks aren't piling up.

I'd be careful here. You know her best, but...

I'm an MB Novice but I can say as a woman, the cranes would backfire with me. If my husband did that I believe I would feel angry that I told him and I told him they were important to me at the time, and he ridiculed them and me. Now it's too late and he's spent how much time making 1,000 paper cranes I have no use for?

Even the 3 or 4 cranes a day thing would probably not work well because every time it would be a reminder that you didn't care what I wanted before the wedding.

Maybe that's just me, your wife may be totally different.

My H and I did not even have a wedding. He had some legitimate reasons for not wanting to have a wedding, and in hindsight I might have come to the same conclusion given the option. But he never asked what I wanted, he just plowed over my feelings with his logic for no wedding.

Now every time weddings come up - an invitation, a movie, a conversation - I feel hurt and resentful all over again. I see men doing so much to make their bride's big day a dream come true and think - my husband didn't even care what I wanted.

You don't want the paper cranes to serve as a constant reminder that when she asked for your support you couldn't be bothered. Now that she's reached the end of her rope, you're willing to make them. Now that she doesn't need them anymore...

She's leaving anyway so it will help either way.

I've left one on her car door with a messge in itallian. We used to send each other romantic messages in different languages the other had to decipher.

I'm also going to wrap one up in tissue paper with a little gift and post it to her work place.

I guess we'll see if she says anything or accepts them.

If you decide against the paper cranes, what about a similar, simpler gesture that she would not associate with the paper-crane-disappointment? On the folding front, you could learn some origami, make a flower, butterfly, etc. a day for her, leave it somewhere she'll find it as a surprise that says "I'm thinking of you and I associate you with feminine things like flowers..." Or a post it note campaign like Prisca described.

Something thoughtful and consistent, that she might come to miss if it stopped, but not grandiose over the top awkward.

I've already started the crane manufacturing process and have delivered one with one in transit.

But, I like your idea as well. I'll learn some other origami stuff and make them as well. I suppose it can't hurt. Well, at least until she explodes and tells me to stop doing it.

Even if your wife has an angry outburst, that does not mean that it hurt your marriage.

The cranes are a sign of affection. They wouldn't work for you because you would not see them as affectionate.

It is also natural for a woman in withdraw to be upset about signs of affection -- I tore up and threw away many of the postit notes markos left for me because his affection made me so uncomfortable. But, as with the pebble analogy, one little sign of affection at a time slowly builds the lovebank balance.

Thank you Marcos and Prisca - it's very reassuring knowing there is a slight glimmer of hope and that the behavior of someone that may change their mind will look the same as someone that won't.

It definitely helps me remain functional to maintain hope. I know when I start to slip into it feeling hopeless it's a very dark distressing place. It's 4 weeks today that she told me and I need to keep myself up for my daughter.

There are lots of ideas in these archived threads from the bottom of the forum.

Here:

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=postlist&Board=20&page=1

Wow - I haven't seen them - thanks

Welcome.
You are going to be okay, Dajavude.

What does your name mean anyway? I keep wanting to change it around with it for fun. (Dejavoodoo etc.) I hope you know that I'm just playing around...

All good mate.

What's the plural of Deja vu?


I am an idiot for letting two marriages get to the same point hence the sense of Deja vu. And apart from the disbelief, shame and regret, I have this over riding dread of having to go through this all over again.

So day 1 of operation crane seems to have gone as well as could have been expected.

I sent a translated email this morning in Danish to say i hoped she had a fantastic day. I also left one of the cranes on her car door handle with an affectionate msg in italian.

I rang her this afternoon to discuss interviews our kids are having to change schools. Firstly she answered her phone which she could have ignored. She sounded a bit stroppy. When I asked her about the interviews she warmed up a bit. She also advised that she would be staying in the house tomorrow night.

I guess if she felt sufficiently peeved by the two "pebbles" I threw she could have made a point of complaining or not taking phone call etc.

I'm going to leave a crane on her car again tomorrow and see how she behaves tomorrow night. I'm going to make pumpkin soup in the morning so she can have a stress free meal.

I am going to vacate the bedroom so she can have our room. She could choose to stay at a friends house so she must feel sufficiently safe to stay so all in all a good sign I guess.

Funny how life can turn optimism to [censored].

I just found an email confirming accomodation for trip she making to Sydney in 12 days.

It is a single room, double bed, booked for 2 adults.

I'm not sure what I should do?

She and stepson are coming to house tomorrow and staying one night. Should I confront her? Which will mean she'll know that I have access to her email?

I would not be able to handle the thought of her sleeping with another man.

I have just read a FB chat log she has had with one of her best friends where she has spent so much time making me out to be a selfish [censored] bludging off her.

She also states that 4 days ago she spent 3 days crying and feeling depressed.

Do not confront her, but investigate, don't loose your source of information.

The goal of operation investigate is to obtain solid proof of an affair (of lack thereof). You could hire a PI in Sydney to find out with whom she shares the room.

Don't confront her now with this information, she knows she booked a double room.

Are you still in denial or do you now believe she's having an affair?

Do not confront her. You need to find out who OM is.

I don't know if i am strong enough to let her go

Im really sorry D, but you actually have a better shot than you did yesterday. Knowing the problem means you can tackle it.

It's a perfect opportunity for a PI and you could then expose. If you could get proof of who the guy is/an EA you could expose before the Sydney trip.

I think you should prepare yourself for the possibility it's already physical though.



These are all typical side effects of waywardism though. The crying is actually a good sign.

Why would you if you don't want to? All the signs point to a guy who uses the addiction mind set of affairs to get sex on the side. He is only interested in her when she's married and therefore unavailable.

Affairs are awfully depressing places. Its your right to leave her to her mess, but if you love her you can help her. She needs everyones help.

Crying is a really good sign. I know this isn't her first affair (or is it that her first affair remained uncured and unexposed? A question for Dr H.) but recovery is more possible with the typical wayward wife. See below.




[/quote]

Take heart my friend, a little trouble and this guy is likely to run like a pansy. He sees your wife as black book material and will be easily run off.

I think your mini exposure last time was a bit of a denunciation, and 'I'm done' announcement. You want to aim a bit more for an 'I'm fighting for her' tone and expose to her side, yours and expose OM too.

This standard letter is good. If it's the guy you suspect I'd add in something like 'he is the man she was also having an affair with during her first marriage'.

Dear friends and family,

I am writing you this message because you are an important person in the lives of xxxx and I. As some of you know, xxxxx has recently asked me for a separation, which has shattered my heart. To my shock, I am saddened to have discovered that the reason is because she has been carrying on an affair with a old boyfriend named xxxxx xxxxx who resides in xxxxxx. He is also married and has young children . The purpose of the separation is so that she can carry on her affair without my interference.

I want our marriage to recover from this affair. If you have any influence on my babe, please do what you can to get her to stop this dangerous affair. I want to stay married, but the affair must end.

As our friends and family, I am asking that you use your influence with xxxx to persuade her to end her affair and try to work on our marriage. Our marriage can be salvaged if she would only end the affair. Please support her in doing the right thing. Please support our marriage.

I would so appreciate your support.

Warmest regards,
_________________________

I'm not sure how she booked it, but on many websites the standard booking is for two adults and she may just not have noticed or bothered to change it. It usually doesn't change the price of the room.

Not saying this isn't a red flag, but by itself it's not really conclusive that (a) she is actually staying in the room with a second person and (b) who that person is. You need more intel so keep snooping.

That is why you need to find out the truth.

Don't confront her. Find the truth.

Learn and follow the MB plan - don't make stuff up.

Also wondering if she's really house sitting or if her friend is planning to look after son?
Don't spill any detective beans. Try to stay calm.

I checked this. Default is 1 adult. U have to choose two adults. Doesn't change fee in this case.

You should get your thread moved over to Surviving an Affair.

She's having an affair.

Is there anything i can do, an approach, that if she is wracked with guilt and crying etc, that i might be able to reach her to stop this some other way?

When I couldn't sleep last night because my heart was beating so loudly my whole body was throbbing, I wrote her a poem.


Life is moments, lots of little capsules of time
It doesn't seem that many moments ago
that we met and started to fall in love
and travel through this universe together

I am a richer human being because of the moments
you have gifted me
You are a pillar that my world
is rooted in and obtains oxygen from

You are light and heavenly
sweet, a catalyst of love and forgiveness
empathy, consideration, beautiful smiles
and kilometres of facilitated contentment

I lost my way
chosen nails instead of silk
Poured vinegar and salt into wounds
turned love into hate

If tears could open gates
I would kneel and offer
an infinity of apologies
request forgiveness for half of my sins

I have shattered all the atoms
that once for granted
provided all the happiness I could
ever wish for

I dream, a moment of breathing
the air you exhale
stroke your hair
whisper poppet again

Maybe I could write a relationship / life plan and ask to meet with her and present the plan to her?

Why? She's having an affair. You need to find out who the OM is, and expose them. That is your only hope.

Yes there is.

Here it is:

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2566583#Post2566583

P.S. Get your thread moved over to Surviving an Affair.

Should I just get her phone somehow tonight when they stay somehow ?

If i could get proof on her phone then i could expose now?

Did you give that to her? If not, don't. Stay calm. Don't act like anything is different.

Whatever it takes to get proof and find out who OM is, that is what your priority is.

Giving her a "life plan" isn't going to do anything for her when she's having an affair.

When you get her phone put spyware on it.

**EDIT**

moderator's note: this is not a platform for personal opinions, but a place to help posters with Marriage Builders. Please familiarize yourself with Marriage Builders concepts before posting again.

SueL,

You raise some valid points.
However, Dr. Harley encourages spouses facing a walk away spouse to first rule out the possibility of an affair.
If an affair is discovered, Dr. Harley encourages the betrayed spouse to expose the affair to family and friends.
In nearly all cases, the cheating spouse never supports the exposure.
There are numerous articles on this website authored by Dr. Harley which you can read to better understand his concepts towards saving marriages.

Suel,

My heart agrees with you. I really, really, want to believe her when she says there is nobody else and just focuss on extending love, caring and understanding towards her, acknowledge my mistakes and hope that there is still some part of her that can see how sincerely sorry I am.

I would give anything to change this situation for her, me, our kids, restof our family.

She is staying in house tonight and my heart tells me I should vacate our bedroom, clean ensuite, and provide a meal for her and my stepson withou asking.

A reminder to posters that the purpose of this forum is to help posters with MB concepts. It is not a platform for personal opinions and agendas. If you can help this poster find solutions using MB concepts, we encourage you to post. If not, please refrain from posting.

And when you finally get that proof, come back here before doing anything else.

Don't ignore this. Click Notify and ask the mods to move your thread.

No - even though they have moments of incredible remorse they are powerless against the pull of the affair. This is an addiction we are talking about. The only thing that works is to publicly ruin the affair. If you personally try to strong arm her conscience she will not only resent you enormously but she will have to harden her conscience to escape. Once people do that they become monsters and don't feel any guilt whatsoever.

I was glad to hear she was crying because you may still have time to expose before her conscience hardens. She has been wayward a long time.



Every if you got through to her, she'd suffer such incredible withdrawal symptoms for her lover, her promise wouldn't last. You yourself thought you were done with her until you experienced withdrawal. Love is the most addictive brain chemical possible. Affairs are even more addictive than legitimate love. Until exposure ruins them.

Not sure what you mean by "asking". But don't give her any clue that you know something's up until after you get proof and expose.

It's okay here to be a bit strategic in getting proof for the sake of saving the marriage.

That sounds great.

DV: the cranes, the translated love notes, the poetry - you are clearly a romantic guy and this will definitely be a strength in the near future.

But trying to use romance against an affair is like whispering against the backdrop of a storm. She will simply be unable to register anything over her affair. Affairs are secret fantasies with no problems or even slight disagreements.

Also - is there any possibility your wife is snooping on you? It's sometimes done to protect the A. The recent guest on your thread sounded like she had a personal agenda. If so - hurry.

If Mrs DV is watching, pull up a chair and start your own thread

WOW!!!

Maybe there is more to your situation that needs to be discussed.

A pattern usually gets observed which is very telltale when any poster completely skips and ignores the same question posed repeatedly.

Most of us want to know how much of Dr. Harley's writings you have Absorbed, so that if we feel you need to upgrade your knowledge base regarding Dr. Harley's professional perspective, then we could redirect the poster and request that they avail themselves to the full and comprehensive text that has been point by point written with the intent for clear and concise instantly useable instructions.

The reason that I specifically stated that I had read your entire thread, is that you had just recently berated and totally blown off another poster, in particular,one who consistently provides extraordinary advice. I was seeking to Ruffle your feathers in advance, because you seem very easily agitated.

So, which persona is the authentic version of you?

The one who after the fact would like to fold up 1,000 paper cranes and writes romantic poetry?

Or the one who blows his stack against anonymous posters, whom just do not want to see another human being have to endure the pain of a breaking down marriage and face the realistic probability that there spouse is having an affair?

Another point about stating that I had read your entire topic thread from beginning to end. I read EVERY Thread from beginning to end, yet I do not sit down and take notes about minute detail changes from one poster to the next. Most situations have So Many similarities to them, it's uncanny, due to the Nature Of The Addiction That Affairee Behavior Causes.

I read my content that I posted to you a couple of times over, so that if I needed to correct the way I deliver my messages, I can understand where I am responsible for conveying my thoughts incorrectly.

The ONLY thing that I could minutely conceive of being interpreted as "Yelling" at you, is the one sentence where I capitalized it asking which books you have read.

Seriously, wouldn't it have been so much simpler just to politely respond to the requests made by several posters instead of waiting for the "Yelling" at you to finally get you to update the posters with the answer.

By the way, although Capitalization may be a method for Shouting or yelling, I only use it on various words for emphasis. Especially when the majority of my posting are done from my cell phone. I just had Both of my knees replaced with new implants 2 weeks ago and was in the hospital for acute intensive rehab therapy and am now continuing my rehab from my Sisters home, so I have the availability to use an actual computer instead of my cell phone, hence the much longer post than usual.

So, now comes along another question asked repeatedly. Have you requested, by hitting the Notify Button, to have the Moderator move your topic thread to the more appropriate forum, entitled, Surviving An Affair yet?

LTL

x2

I find the "denial" type of BS often sabotage affair fighting efforts by going off and following their own plans (such as confronting the WS) after they get some evidence. Please don't do that.

Well she stayed overnight, they didn't eat the pumpkin soup, our only face to face interaction was her asking to talk to me where she wanted to advise me that all social contact with her son was to go through her because he was feeling uncomfortable with my new attention, and to stop leaving her cranes because they were not having the effect I desired and were making her feel uncomfortable.

They left shortly after and will be gone house sitting for three weeks.

I kept looking her eyes and all I could think of was wanting to hold her again. I want this pain to stop. Now.

Did you find out who the OM is?

No. I basically have no way of finding out if there is.

You need to move off your butt and fight this affair.

DV, we deal with men and women in this situation here all the time, sadly. It is like seeing people who have fallen into a vat of acid and are burning to death. It's tragic.

We have a plan to help you get out of the vat of acid, but you have got to keep moving and keep putting one foot in front of the other. You can't be saying "I can't." You have got to do the next step, and then the next step, and then the next step. I know it hurts, and I know it's like you are dissolving in a vat of acid, but we are telling you how to get out of it. Don't sit down in the acid and say "I can't."

If there's any spot where you stop and say "I can't," then that is the thing that is going to eat you alive. You're going to lose you marriage in the most painful way possible if you do not find out the identity of the OM. I promise you. If you aren't going to do this, then you had better just go ahead and file for divorce, because that would be less pain for you in the long run.

Find out the OM or get a divorce lawyer and make a quick end of this.

That is not true.

You are headed for some serious pain, DV, if you do not deal with this.

You've been telling us for weeks that you "can't deal with it," but if you take that approach then this thing is going to dissolve you whole and eat you alive. Better get out of it fast, or get through it fast, but don't sit there whining about it while it kills you.

I fixed that for you.

Do you want to stay married to this woman?

Your heart has led you to a failing marriage and a cheating wife.

Are you ready to admit that like the rest of us you don't know jack about this and get some help? Or are you going to keep making it up as you go along?

DW, you need to see your doctor immediately and get him to prescribe some short term antidepressants so that you can stay rational and follow a plan to better your situation.

Otherwise you are just going to keep flitting around fiddling while Rome burns.

If you want to stay married to her, follow Marriage Builders by finding out who the OM is.

If you do not want to stay married to her, see a divorce attorney.

I went back to your first post and found this.


There is an affair involved. Do you want to get a divorce, or keep your marriage?

On the first day you came here, you told us:


And I'm positive we told you that was ridiculous.

Yet here you are a month later still talking about getting out of the bedroom.

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

Are you ready to admit that Plan Dajavude doesn't work and try Plan Marriage Builders? FIND OUT WHO YOUR WIFE IS WITH.

You could physically go there and find out.

You could hire a private investigator.

You could employ technology.

You could enlist the help of friends.

There are probably other things you could do as well.

Next time you feel like posting "I can't," just save yourself a lot of grief and hire a divorce attorney.

Marriage doesn't work when you say "I can't."

If I find another car at this house what should I do then?

Find out who is the owner of this car.

Thats all well and good if I knew where she was staying.

Sir we cant do your detective work for you.
if you cant do it then hire a PI and get it done.

No PI where I live.

A lot of little details are bugging me, I get the impression that half the story is missing. I'm still confused why you didn't apply MB in this relationship (and why you didn't want to marry her years before you did).

In the beginning of this thread you mention the letter your wife left you. What exactly did she write? If you post the contents of the letter, it is easier to help you. She might have left clues on how to deposit her lovebank, maybe she also used wayward expressions. If she did, you know you have to snoop more/better.

In 2008 you wrote:
Wether or not she is having an affair, take care of the problems you have and make a better future without them. In your first thread, you mentioned you had a problem with angry outbursts and you had signed up for an anger management course. I got the impression that problem might still exist, as you ignored SugarCanes question in the beginning of this thread, wether or not you finished the course (or perhaps you just missed the question).

You mention she will be housesitting for a friend. Later you tell you don't know where she is staying. Do you know this friend? If so, finding out where your wife stays can't be that hard.

You say you have no idea who OM is, but you have acces to en email conversation between this man and your wife. So you do know his name, IP-adress, the company he works at. Right?

You ask several times "If I find out she did X, should I do Y?" Find out what is really happening, then ask what to do.

When I found out my 'boyfriend' had lied to me on not being married, I investigated thouroughly and got all info he hid from me (wife and kid, kids school, etc.).
When a person deer to me was dating an abusive/controlling boyfriend, I investigated her wherebouts, so I could prevent more bad things from happening (went on stakeout, keylogger on computer, the works. She is greatful now and safe!).
To me it is hard to understand why you haven't investigated more or better. Google everything, use different combinations of info (OM name, company, residence, every snippet you have). If I google "dejavude" and "site:marriagebuilders.com", I find this thread . You can look for OM googling his name and "site:facebook.com", be creative. Or google your wife, does your wife has a specific screenname she uses on a forum or on social media? I bet with the info you've got, you can find out quite a bit more than you have so far.

I don't have a good answer for that. I know that I practiced focusing on her most important needs earlier in our relationship. I think that there may have been a feeling of resentment in me about a number of important relationship respect and care matters that I may have subconsciously chosen to balance the score.


It was a long letter. She was very specific and I have paraphrased earlier in the thread. Her shortlist is

1. Time
2. Words of affirmation
3. Gifts.

She is living elsewhere and refuses to spend any time with me that isn't absolutely necessary. She has told me my messaging her against her wishes is harassment and to stop it. Everything I do or buy, or try to give to her in acts of service or affection ,she rejects. Eg I made pumpkin soup for her and stepson when they stayed the other night, while I took my daughter to a family meal at my brothers. I came home early to prepare soup, clean the house, floors, bathroom, kitchen, bought flowers, and left a crane I folded with a romantic affectionate message on her pillow.

Both she and stepson ignored the soup; she made a point of having a conversation with me to tell me to stop giving her cranes as it was making her feel uncomfortable and that all future social interactions with her son needed to go through her.

She is pursuing a clinical surgical removal of me from her life.


Frankly, if we were defending a litigation on not meeting contractual obligations I would have no defense. Further, it would be ludicrous to suggest I be given second chance to fulfill the contract.


I didn't complete the course. I purchased an anger management book, and read many other books in relation to emotional and social intelligence.

I have not had issues with angry outbursts in this relationship. My problem, is being too assertive and standing my ground on selfish points.

We both brought an 8 and a 12 year old into the relationship. Me two girls, her two boys. There was a lot of negotiating required to make this work and we did a very good job; I think.

I followed a policy that if something was worth getting annoyed about then it had to be communicated and dealt with. If wasn't worth dealing with then I let it go.

That is the approach my wife and I have followed and basically the reason why I feel ambushed is that following the letter she wrote, she made various comments to me stating she appreciated the efforts i was making to prioritise things important to her. She never made any representations regarding my efforts that needed improving from her perspective.


No I don't know anything about her friend. I have just ben told it;s a friends house.


The email is from an old close friend, he lives in another city, and they have not seen each other in years. er last email to him that I saw, was sent after she hit me me with the news, and it was a flirty msg saying she would like to catch up if he was ever in another major city where she regulary goes for work. He works high up in corporate HR and I know she is planning to move career wise out of the public sector into the private sector so he in hat respect he is one good resource for her. ALbeit one with a close connection she should not have been contacting

Not him. Otherwise it would have been specific.


That would be fine if the OM was the person in the flirty email. It isn't.

So my question is what exactly should I be doing now?

For how long and what should my Plan A look like. She is basically on the verge of reporting me to the police for harrasment. I have no contact with her and she is for all intents blocking access to my stepson.

I am feeling like it is lost cause. 3 weeks is going to go by and and either I keep the peace by not contacting her or I risk having some kind of AVO slapped on me if I keep trying to contact her by phone, txt, or email.

Everyone here is adamant there is an affair which I have no way of proving. I have no access to phone, txt, email, FB, or her location anymore. So is there any point in any contact?

Honestly, if there isn't an affair, what are the chances of her changing her mind now given everything she has done? What time frame, given no affair, would I expect to see something indicating a willingness to reconcile. I don't see that it's possible.

She has told all our friends and family, she has told me its over and doesn't love me. How is she going get to a cognitive place in her mind strong enough to come back after all that?

Sir, you do not lack the knowledge of what to do. What you lack is the will.

Agreed.

I don't know what to do or what i can do. All the options i have lead to same result.

In pragmatic terms, since my mindset has been directed at an affair my emotional and physical health has deteriorated. All i can think of is her with someone else and I am powerless to do anything. So it would seem I either die in the vat of acid like Marcos says or cut my heart out and give up to save my sanity.

Thankyou all for your help.

You haven't taken any action to fight this affair.

You feel awful because you have done nothing. Once you take action, you will feel better. You could hire a PI from another town. You said she is planning to go to Sydney. Hire one there. There are numerous options. Stop hand-wringing and take action.

We are not ignorant to the pain of betrayal and trying to Plan A while in the depths of an emotional roller coaster, Daja. The excuse about your emotional health isn't going to get anyone here to help you stick your head in the sand and pretend there is nothing to be done about the affair.

Get on ADs, stop making excuses and get to work already.

I dont have the resources to pay for a PI to travel here etc.

There really is no other option.

I either stay in Plan A in belief there is no OM or I believe there is an OM and realise I can't do anything.

I would like thread locked and arvhived or whatever from public view.

Which is the main problem in your mind, Dajavude?

1. Limited resources
2. Your emotions making you see obstacles instead of possibilities
3. Your decision that if there actually IS another man, you won't WANT to recover.

It's the circle of consequences.

Apparently I am the only one in this thread that thinks there might not be an actual relationship going on yet.

So on the basis that there must be OM I have the option of

- finding out and exposing the relationship to try to save marriage

- failing that, continuing to Plan A for some undetermined period of time not knowing either way if what I am doing is going to make any difference.

So in my mind enough doubt about whether there is OM exists to make me realise it would be futile to plan A if there was. The options I have available to me to discover if and who the OM is are not sufficient to achieve that goal.

So it's a combination of realities. I have asked for advice that provides realistic decision making options for me but all I am getting told is that I lack commitment when I just don't have the capacity to do anything else, either in terms of my own physical actions, or paying for investigators.

I'll just clarify, if I could prove existence of a relationship, and if exposing resulted in my wife reconsidering our marriage, I would welcome her back with open arms, I would forgive her and make her happiness and our marriage my number one priority. I would happily forgive her.

I don't see a way for me to do this. I can't afford $1000's of dollars on a PI. The alternative is for me to try to find her car and follow her. That would be a very difficult and risky endevour, and quite frankly, I don't think that exposing an affair would be 100% likely to result in a reconciliation anyway.

The whole time I am in limbo I am emotionally not focused on my daughter who needs me but i am walking around in this frantic flight and flight daze unable to deal with anything else.

In my situation, what would you recommend I do?

Realistically if I cannot discover if there is OM then my only alternatives are to give up or to proceed like there is no OM, right?

So, how long would someone in my situation need to be in Plan A with a wife that has done what she has done, IF there was no OM?

1 Month, 3 months, 6 months ? What is realistic. My intuition is that if there was no OM she would have shown some sign by now right?

You need to realize there are no 100% choices available to you other than divorce. That is the only 100% choice here.

I can point you to a few situations like mine where the husband fights and loses, and I can point you to a lot of situations where the husband fights and wins. Even if you fight, there is no guarantee other than a lack of regret. Give due diligence and I promise you, you will have no regret about the action you took.

What you are doing now is not due diligence.

If you can't afford a PI, completely exhaust your options for doing so with the understanding that it might mean the difference between saving your marriage and not saving it, and if you still have no funding available, then look at snooping other ways. I ended up taking out a loan against a car (use a bank, not a loan shark if you do this) I had already paid off because I didn't have the cash on hand and was not going to let $2000 be the difference between saving my marriage/not saving it and even simply knowing myself what in the world was happening. Can you really just walk away from this content to not know? How?!

Exposure is not a 100% option for reconciling your wife because your wife is temporarily insane and there are few 100% choices with crazy people. But it is a 100% choice for helping your daughter understand this moment in her life that is probably very troubling for her. And it's a 100% choice for choosing to be empowered and not imprisoned by this situation.

I'm sure anxiety is destroying you right now, because I can remember being in your shoes. You have plays to make, and once you make them, you will feel better. You're focusing on a lot of "if's" right now (e.g. if my wife would reconcile) instead of the "is's" in your situation.

Your wife is communicating with a lover, you have already uncovered this and shared it with us. Your wife is having an affair by any sensible definition of the word.

Your wife is about to leave you.

Your time is running out.

The only person keeping you in limbo is you.

Whether something will or won't work (e.g. Plan A) is not something you know anywhere near as well as the veterans here. Let them worry about the strategic soundness of Plan A.

You are not powerless here, you are just refusing to trust the advice given here enough to try it.

Sir visit your doctor and ask to be prescribed anti depressant medication so you can function.

I'm not going to get AD. I did that last time and I suffered undesirable side effects for months after wards.

I have been trying it and I am now in a position where I can't move forward. I have already spent close to $2000 on various things to get the information. There is a point where anyone would have to weigh the pros and cons on how much debt they are willing to go into for an uncertain return.

I can only guess, but I reckon $2000 would be the starting point in any PI work and would be a self fulfilling money black hole - I need another day , I need another day, you've already spent $6000 - it would be a waste to not continue, etc etc.

What is the custody arrangement with your daughter?