I would like to get some clarification re exclusiveness during dating.

I have been aware of Dr Harley's material for a couple of years, and continue to come back to it as my point of reference. I think it is excellent.

I have spent many years alone having been extremely burnt in previous relationships.

On occasions I venture into the world of relationships but my experiences always end up being very brief (no longer than a couple of months and I am always the one to end them for various reasons.

Most recently I have had a month long 'relationship' with someone I have known for many years but had never met in person until the end of 2015. Even though there were numerous red flags from the get go, I fell passionately in love with him very quickly. He met my top five emotional needs in abundance despite it being obvious that he has the mentality and belief system of a relational freeloader. In truth I found him irresistible and having been on my own for a very long-time and having recently had some very painful news that left me feeling vulnerable, I took caution to the wind and allowed myself to be completely seduced by the experience. It is not something I wish to repeat any time soon as it ended very quickly after he showed me such severe lack of care over certain issues that I was actually stunned and extremely hurt. My own fault and I don't know what I was thinking or expecting.

To cut a long story short I have once again been extremely burnt by the experience and it has been a huge wake up call for me.

I have decided for the first time in my life that I will no longer give a man exclusive rights to my heart, mind, body and soul until they are showing me an extraordinary level of care and I am very committed to finding a person who I can have a passionate and romantic life-long partnership within the container of marriage.

I am more than aware I have an incredible amount to learn and I am also aware of some serious 'love busters' that I have and I am committed to getting a handle on these.

For the first time in my life I want to date. I have never dated before as I have always jumped into a relationship being someone's 'girlfriend' from the get go or having been a freeloader myself in my youth and through extremely low self-esteem just having sex.

I have read a great deal of Dr Harley's material in his books and also here on the website and forum.

I have read before that Dr Harley recommends going on thirty dates, and I am now more than willing to give this a try. My question is when does one offer a date exclusivity and how is this exclusivity defined?

I remember reading that even during Dr Harley and his wife's engagement Joyce went on some dates with other men and I am left a bit confused.

I know that one doesn't become a buyer until the moment of marriage, but is there a time, say if I meet someone that meets my top five emotional needs that I would offer them more exclusivity i.e. I would stop dating others.

Also what would be the difference between dating someone and being engaged to them.

I am open to learning everything I need to so that I can stop the pain and suffering I seem to experience whenever I enter into any form of intimate relationship with men.

I look forward to any help with this matter.

The Harley's don't recommend exclusivity until engagement is in place. Joyce did not date other men once they were engaged. Just my opinion, but I would consider an exclusive arrangement once an engagement has been discussed and agreed upon. If that arrangement is quickly followed by an actual engagement, then exclusivity should certainly be cemented.

Hi MelodyLane,
that is very helpful thanks.

Ive just found the part about Joyce dating during their engagement:

PG 42 buyers, renters, and freeloaders
'In fact, during our engagement, Joyce actually dated another guy as a last fling. I was somewhat concerned that she might do the same after we were married, but she assured me that once her vows were said, she would not so much as look at another guy'

This is why I was confused. However it makes sense to me that until engagement I would not be exclusive. I truly belief this is the trap I have been falling into my whole relational life and it comes as a great relief that I do not ever have to do this again.

I have actually had quite a few marriage proposals over the last twenty years (and I was married in my early twenties although I didn't have a clue what marriage was about and was still a renter. It lasted only a couple of years). The proposals have generally come on the back of me ending the relationship and have felt like a desperate attempt on the man's part to grab my attention.

If I am dating a man and he is meeting my top five emotional needs, and he asks me to marry him and enter into engagement what kind of things should I be looking for before I would say yes?

I am sorry to ask such basic questions I am just on the back of being burnt right now and feeling a bit vulnerable.

also what kind of things would be discussed and agreed upon before engagement?

I've heard the Harley's discuss that on the radio. Mrs. Joyce explained she didn't realize he was serious. She thought they were discussing something very distant and hypothetical.

apple123 I am confused by your comment. She didn't realise he was serious about what?

Right now I am quite stunned at how ignorant I have been about love, relationships, dating etc.

I can't quite believe I have offered the men I have had brief flings with exclusive rights to my heart when none of them have ever offered me a level of care that has been even close to appropriate for that level of exclusivity.

It truly hurts my heart to think I placed such little value on myself.

Ok, I stand corrected, but I missed that paragraph. They DO NOT ADVOCATE DATING AFTER ENGAGEMENT so that is what you should do.

Melodylane,
yes that makes perfect sense to me thank you for the clarification.
I will never offer myself exclusively to a man until after engagement.
Would the kind of discussions I would be looking to have pre engagement be things like how long we would be expecting the engagement to last? What we would be looking for in our exclusive engagement?etc
What is the difference between how we would act in an engagement over a marriage (other than sexual fulfilment if one believes in no sex until marriage)?
I know Dr Harley says that one is only a buyer after the marriage vows have been taken but I am guessing one would be looking to explore buyers beliefs and attitudes during engagement.

And I will not be looking to date after engagement.

The relief I feel to get this clarification is indescribable !!
Sorry to be so expressive about it but the recent pain I felt at giving my heart to this most recent man and offering him every part of me, which was immature and ridiculous I know, was so intense. It has truly been the wake up call I have needed and I made the commitment inside myself that I will never offer a man that level of exclusiveness for crumbs again. It's just I didn't have a clear awareness of where the boundaries were so this feels not only right to me but very clearly defined.

Mrs. Joyce was 17. She said she didn't realize it was a serious proposal. She thought he was joking or speaking flipantly. The date was already scheduled a few days later.

Tivona,

From your recent dating experience you had someone who met your 5 top needs - and as you said it was obvious that he was not a good candidate for marriage.

Dr Harley often says that it should be logical/rational part in relationship. And you recognised that part was missing.

However, it's quite difficult for me to imagine that you can casually date 5 men in parallel and one of them would propose. I've heard from couple of men that they broke up when found out the woman was dating other guys.

My understanding is people usually date exclusively for some time before engagement.

Hi Aerith,

Melodylane has said that the Harleys do not recommend that someone becomes exclusive before engagement.

So is your understanding that people usually date exclusively for sometime before engagement based on your own opinion or what you believe the Harleys recommend?

I'm confused.

Like I have said I know I have a lot to learn. All I want to do right now is protect myself from any further heart pain by following a protocol that makes sense and works.

Not dating exclusively before engagement makes sense to me currently.

I would be more than willing to date different men and if one starts to show me extraordinary care I would of course be want to see them more than the others. But if we haven't reached a stage where we are actively and maturely expressing a possible engagement for a future marriage then wouldn't it be unwise of me to cut of from dating other men that might be the one I eventually go on to marry.

Don't get me wrong I see where you are coming from, and all my relational life (outside of my youth) I have given myself exclusively to a man from the get go and become their 'girlfriend'.

I was also thinking about what I remember Dr Harley discussing in his books about his and Joyce's relationship. I did get the distinct impression that they did date exclusively before they got engaged as I seem to remember Dr Harley saying Joyce broke up with him a couple of times and they started dating others.

So after reading your comment I'm still left a bit confused.
However I can see how not giving myself exclusively to any man before engagement could be a good thing. As long as I was honest and open about the relationship protocol I was following I can't see what harm it would do.

I wouldn't be interested in having sex with the men I am dating, so I think that could make quite a bit of difference.

I've been reading around some other material and I did come across this website yesterday that said the relationship protocol should go like this: dating (seeing lots of people and getting to know them)>courtship (choosing one of the dates to be exclusive with in preparation for engagement) > engagement (moving courtship onto a deeper level in preparation for marriage)> marriage (if engagement is successful).

I'm wondering if you are speaking about being exclusive in courtship?

Thoughts would be welcome.

Tivona-

Have you thought about getting advice directly from Dr. Harley and Joyce about your situation?

For free advice, send your questions to:

mbradio@marriagebuilders.com

Thanks didn't quit.
I have written to Dr Harley from your suggestion.
I really would like some clarity re this situation and what would be the best dating/courtship/engagement to follow.

I truly couldn't bare anymore heart pain.
Like I said this has been the final wake-up call I have needed so that I can really learn how to progress forward.

Let us know when you hear back from Dr. Harley.

I am not quite sure what is the difference between dating and courting in modern world. What does courting include what dating doesn't?

You probably have read Dr Harley answer to email in MB Q&A section http://www.marriagebuilders.com//graphic/mbi5068a_qa.html

He said regarding dating 30 people:
"...if you find someone that knocks you off your feet before you reach the magic 30, don't feel compelled to continue dating. My point is that within those 30 people there is probably someone who you would find very compatible and who would know how to meet your emotional needs. If by the fifth date you've found that person, search no longer."

Hi Aerith,
Thanks for digging that quote out.
I have to say I am really confused now.
Melodylane said the Harleys recommend not being exclusive until engagement.

This quote would suggest that if you are dating and meet a person who does 'it for you' that the search is over. SO then does that mean you would then start being exclusive?

This most recent guy I had a fling with met my top five needs abundantly hence falling head of heels for him. Yet he couldn't even use the word 'relationship' and it was obvious he had the belief system of a relational freeloader and just wasn't on the same page as me about what he wanted or what he could give, or wanted to give. He really wanted just an easy ride and couldn't and wouldn't discuss the depths of what we were creating. (so I guess on reflection maybe he didnt meet my top need for intimate conversation although we were able to converse on many things passionately in ways I rarely have with many people)

I believe he did feel very strong feelings for me but at the same time he didn't want any kind of 'pressure' and wanted nothing labelled or put in a box.

I guess this means in some way he didn't know how to meet my emotional needs properly. Maybe this is what Dr Harley is speaking about.

Maybe if I start dating and meet another guy who can meet my top five emotional needs AND offers me the care, protection and ability to be mature and discuss the concepts presented here then it would be ok to become exclusive with this person before engagement ???

I read the email question and answers and it would seem that the Harleys were exclusive when they were dating as Dr Harley says that Joyce would break up with him to date other men.

So I am still not very sure about the correct protocol to follow that will get me the results I am looking for which is a lifelong passionate happy marriage

It really feels to me as this isn't clearly defined and I would really love to know exactly what Dr Harley believes and suggests :-/

I would hate to meet a guy I really like and not offer him exclusivity during dating because we hadn't reached engagement
and mess it up.

Tivona, it seems you are being so legalistic that you are missing the forest for the trees. The only criteria cannot just be meeting your needs expertly but must be a willingness to be married, among other things. For example, how does the person feel about the policy of joint agreement? How does the person feel about opposite sex friendships? How do they handle money? It seems like the best thing to do would be to rule out freeloaders early so you are not falling for them.


righto! The goal with dating [or courting] is to find a suitable husband. When you are dating, the goal is to screen out those who will not be good candidates. If you find a great candidate who meets all of your criteria - and who is expected to propose - you could consider becoming exclusive. BUT...what if the person meets all your criteria and never proposes? In that case, you would be wasting your time in a nowhere relationship when you could be out dating.

Have you ever read the book "The Rules?" I got married before this book came out, but I used many of its rules without knowing how valuable it really was. The authors recommend not making yourself too available because it lessens your attractiveness.

Hi Melodylane,
its taking me a few days to process everything, but I think I am starting to get their now.
I appreciate everyone's input with this.
When I first posted I was still feeling incredibly hurt.

I can see now how it isn't just about getting my top five needs met,
there are probably hundreds of men out there that could meet my top five needs, including psychopaths!!! well ok maybe that's a bit of a stretch...as honesty and openness is in their and psychopaths are anything but.

However if I use other criteria for assessing the men I am dating like for instance their maturity around these issues and their matching desire to get married and find the right mate, as well as some of the other criteria you mentioned then I can screen out undesirables.

Those that come with a freeloaders mentality are just not worth my time of day...its just not worth giving my energy to them.

If I do meet a man that meets my top five needs AND gives me the care, protection and maturity to discuss the deeper aspects of creating a healthy and functional relationship with the possibility of future engagement and marriage then and only then could and would I offer exclusivity. Even if this might be before engagement.

However if by offering exclusivity there is any kind of attitude change on the man's part then I can always go back to dating around again. Unless we are married I have every right to do this.

I am looking for a lifelong healthy passionate loving marriage. I'm not messing about with my heart and my life for a second longer.
It's serious business and I've spent the last 24 years not taking it seriously enough, even if I've been getting there slowly

I really am grateful for this most recent wake-up call and I really appreciate the feedback here

sorry for typos, grammar, punctuation, and spelling mistakes I type so fast and don't bother to check what I've written before I post it!

Perfect!! i think that sounds like a super plan. And when you are dating, you can come here and bounce ideas off the forum. We will help you test the candidates...

The time line might look something like this;

Meet, mix with and date a number of people.

Most you will see alone only once. If you find one who is extraordinary, by all means continue to see him. But both of you should be freeloaders. That means you can (and should) continue to meet and spend time with others and you should both be open about it. You are slowly getting to know one another and you are both watching carefully to spot any inconsistencies. If you see any red flags at all at this stage, walking away is no big deal.

If you are still seeing this person regularly after six months, it is time to take the relationship to the next stage. You can start discussing being exclusive with one another gradually moving from freeloader to renter. If you have children, now might be the right time to introduce them. Start POJA-ing small things.

If at the end of a year you are still really happy together, it is time to talk about making a lifetime commitment. The transition from renter to buyer does not happen until you are actually married but you will gradually start making more and more decisions jointly.

One of the things we find here is that people who have been married before tend to jump too fast into being a buyer because this is what they are used to in relationships. Not only is that dangerous but it could also be off putting for someone who would be a good life time partner for you.

Another is that using Marriage Builders is an incredibly a powerful tool that needs to be used with the greatest care because you can get anyone to fall in love with you. So important to be careful with it. Spending plenty of time as a freeloader is incredibly important.

I think I've got it now...

I'm looking forward to meeting some candidates...

Hi Living well,

being a freeloader during dating I can see can be important.

Do you think there is a difference between ultimately being a buyer (as in wanting to get married in the future) and acting like a freeloader during dating...and being a freeloader incapable of ever becoming a buyer. I mean of course there is a difference...but how would one tell the difference?

I kind of acted like a buyer from straight of the bat in this most recent fling, offering exclusive rights to every part of me pretty much from the start. I wanted to poja, be radially honest, and use the policy of undivided attention (me giving my undivided attention even if it wasn't reciprocated).

Also it makes sense that people can easily fall in love with someone who is using these principles. Every relationship I've had over the last seven years, none lasting more than 2 months, ended in a marriage proposal once I'd finished it. I think I was using buyer principles even before I came across Dr Harley's work (although still had some serious love busters!) and men seem to respond to this quite passionately. Not that this last fling ended in a marriage proposal but I am certain he felt very strong feelings for me.

I don't really want to date a freeloader that does not have the capacity to ever become a renter and then a buyer. I just can't be bothered with that - so what would be some tell tale signs of that?

Also living well the quote posted earlier by Dr Harley said that if after 5 dates you've hit bingo then by all means stop dating...I've paraphrased but it was something like that.

How does that fit in with the protocol you've outlined?

If I meet a man and we hit it off straight away and it's obvious he is a keeper, and we decide to stop dating other people, would you recommend this? Or are you saying only after 6 months of seeing this person would you stop dating others?

I'm sorry to question what you said but I appreciate everyone's perspective and if something is a bit confusing for me I need to question until I've understood.

How did you select these men? What were the reasons these relationships didn't last longer than 2 months? How long did you date before it turned into a relationship?

In my experience, men tend to fall in love faster than women. That love is not always long lasting.

The reason Dr. Harley recommends two years relationship before marriage is that within those two years, you will have seen all bad habits and behaviour. The first months it is easy to show only your best part and being newly in love, you forgive a lot things that would bother you after a longer period of time.

Yes!

That is what the six months of freeloading is for. Over that time you will be talking about your life so far, your goals and your dreams. Freeloaders only think about themselves so these will be only YOUR goals and dreams. He will do likewise. All you have to do is listen carefully. People love to talk about themselves.

Even if it HAD been reciprocated it still would have been wrong (see below).


I think you are just rushing things. You need to listen to your head more and your heart less. Take it slowly. Even once you meet someone amazing, try to limit dates to only once or twice a week. A permanent freeloader will not have the patience to date this way.

Courting has as it's principle objective the ultimate goal of marriage. Dating may only be for the enjoyment of the particular series of events, with no serious intent of building a relationship. So, one could view courting as a subset of dating. If you are courting, you are also dating, but if you are dating, you may or may not be courting. It depends on your intent.

Goody2shoes,
I didn't really select the men,I wasn't really very conscious of what I was doing. It was more of a strong attraction to them. No I didn't date them I fell into being their 'girlfriend' straight away. I ended it with them because my heart belonged to someone else for 8 years and I just wasn't in love with them in anyway really. It just didn't feel worth my time. They only asked me to marry them to get my attention, I didn't really take it seriously, although I'm not saying they didn't even though it was silly, I think I broke a few hearts unintentionally.

Living well,
I'm still a bit confused as I seem to remember that Dr Harley said that Joyce finished it with him numerous times because he was treating her like a freeloader. I can understand the concept of being a freeloader whilst dating to some degree. But there is a difference between being a freeloader during dating and having the unchangeable mentality of a freeloader. Although I know Dr Harley is able to change people's mind sets. I really can't be bothered to date men that would be permanent freeloaders. I guess going on dates with them would eventually reveal this. I am just not sure how one acts like a freeloader during dating and at the same time is looking to eventually buy. I think I need to reread Dr Harley's book on the topic again to get clear.

I don't see why giving each other your undivided attention whilst spending time together even during dates would be wrong.

Also the interesting thing is I only know two couples that have had a passionate loving long lasting marriage (one 20 year and another 22 years) and both couples knew instantly that they were right for each other. They became exclusive instantly and both couples got married 6 months later. Neither couples have even argued during their time together. These are true stories and their marriages have been awesome.

I think knowing these couples set up some fantasies on my part. I agree dating for 6 months could be a very good thing and being in a relationship for two years before marriage healthy, but I guess there are always exceptions, as my friends prove.

mrEureka - well I have the ultimate goal of marriage. Dating doesn't have to be exclusive, but I am guessing courting always is. Would this be right?

I wouldn't get too wrapped up in the terminology. The simple fact is that you are never morally bound to exclusivity until you are actually married. Prior to marriage, relationships with multiple partners at the same time may be unseemly and even unwise, but it isn't flat out wrong.

I remember Dr Harley discussing in the radio show, a client had been dating two women at the same time and fell in love with both, he asked for advice who to chose. After mentioning this example, he recommended dating only one person at a time, to avoid confusion.

Especially men are capable of falling in love with more than one person at the same time. You date someone, if he or she doesn't meet your requirements, you date the next person. If you meet someone more suitable while you are dating, reconsider your options.

Ok I'm really confused now

There has been contradictory advice here and I don't know what is right or wrong right now.

I guess what feels right for me is to not offer myself exclusively whilst I am dating. If a guy presents himself as worthy of my exclusivity then I can offer him that in some form of courtship with the view to engagement. If during this courtship they do not treat me with extraordinary care I can go back to dating without being exclusive.

If it does end up in an engagement then of course I will offer myself exclusively, as well as in courtship. That is how it feels to me right now anyway.

thoughts welcome as I am a bit confused...

Have you heard back from Dr. Harley?

no not yet

If it has been longer than a few days I would NOTIFY the MODS, so they can pass on the message.

There is nothing wrong with your plan. Understand that, even if you offer exclusivity or a future dating partner offers you exclusivity, do not expect the offer to be as binding as a marriage vow of exclusivity. Do not allow yourself to think that you are "married" until you really are married!

mrEureka,

Thank you.
Yes of course I realise my vow of exclusivity I may give within a dating/courtship/engagement with a potential mate is not as binding as within marriage. But thank you for clarifying that.

I think this is pretty much the plan I would like to follow.
Like I have said in previous comments, I have offered myself to men exclusively (and cut myself of from other potential better candidates) way before the men have shown me the level of care that should inspire me to do this.

I really do not want to ever fall into that trap again

***EDIT***

The purpose of the Marriage Builders� Guidance Forum is to advise posters using Dr. Harley�s views. If you have a disagreement with his advice, please contact him directly. Do not argue with his views on other poster's threads.