Hi Guys

Last year I met a 40 year old single mom (2 kids 11 14), my neighbor and we went on a date together. There was great chemistry between us, but she was dating another man exclusively at that moment.

I had to work on the other side of the planet for 7 months and we stayed in contact.

She asked me on a date again this summer and was no longer seeing anyone, so I agreed. Again, she met all my emotional needs and that night we ended up in bed together. We started seeing each other 3 days a week on the days her kids are at her ex-husband's. (divorced 6 years ago)

It has been wonderful and both our love banks are overflowing :-) But something is bothering me: After 2 months she is still repeating textbook FREELOADER agreements, while I have been RENTING and SACRIFICING. (after a week basically)

I have never dated a mom before, so I expected there was some sacrificing going to happen in the beginning. But after being intimate for 2 months, I notice she is still a freeloader...
How can I bring this up without disrespectful judgments, demands and the whole renter/freeloader-conflict? Is it normal it takes that long to get to renter?

Remember from the book, it's easier to convert from a freeloader to buyer than from a renter. Stop sacrificing and start practicing finding the win-wins together :-)

And congrats :-)

Are you saying that this started as a no-strings sexual relationship from the word go, but now you want some kind of strings, and she wants to maintain the relationship the way it started - sex without commitment?

This doesn't augur well for a Marriage Builders marriage. And if you only want to date, have sex and not marry, that isn't MB. I can see that you are unhappy with the relationship, and this has much to do with the basis on which it started. I'd have thought that your having posted and read here for so long would have made you approach relationships differently. If you start by jumping into bed, you run into problems like this.

If you are not married to her, don't expect her to be anything BUT a freeloader. You can't expect a Buyer if you don't actually take the step and BUY.

Basically YES.

She has no problem being exclusive with me, but that's about it. It's freeloader for her all (the rest of) the way.

She was married to an extremly jealous guy and seems to compensate with statements as "I will never change for anyone but myself ever again"

I am following MB advice, ladies!

I want to marry and buy, I even told her on the first dates. But I know this lady for 2 months, you cannot expect me to ask her hand after 2 months when she is still reciting freeloader agreements, do you?

I was pursuing this woman actively!
She asked me as a chaperone on her friend's wedding. She introduced me to her brother and her friends. It was an incredibly romantic date and we ended up in bed together at her place. We spend the rest of the day in bed as lovebirds do. This was not a one night stand!

Dr Harley warns of not getting blinded by SF, neglecting your other emotional needs and advises against sex before marriage. She was meeting every emotional need before effortlessly and makes strange sounds if I dare to say the word marriage. :-)
What do you want me to do?
I cannot turn back time and we both don't see SF as "a bad thing" at all.

Actually I suspect gf is doing rather better than you on the MB stuff. She appears to understand the concept of honesty and also how important it is not to sacrifice. Stop trying to turn her into a renter! You will learn far more about her as a freeloader.

And ignoring this advice of Dr. Harley's is following MB ... How?

I'm going to sue Betty Crocker

Gerold, in all seriousness, Dr. Harley says that dating people don't typically follow the POJA, although they can try it if they agree. But he says that you might discuss the question: "If we were married, would you refrain from doing anything that I'm not enthusiastic about?" That might give you some insight that could help you decide if you want to pursue this relationship further.

I know you don't think that abstaining from premarital sex is realistic, but many people do it, and if you'd follow Dr. Harley's recommendations on this you'd help to limit yourself to a higher class of woman. You got some great responses on one of your previous threads about this.

On a similar note, to me it's a red flag that she had a date with you when she was exclusively seeing another guy. Again, no rule that she can't do that, but it might give some people pause.

I did! She does not want to marry ever again. She said she does not want to change herself for anyone ever again. She said refraining from anything for a significant other is the same as locking herself up in a prison.


I am hardly meeting single people in my age-bracket. The times I refrained from SF, my dates ran away the next day as they perceive rejection. How is this going to get me more dates instead of less?

Wouldn't that be a good sign, though? Do you really want to develop a relationship with someone who puts out so easily? Can't you aim a little higher here?

So you are saying that having NO DATES AT ALL is better than having dates with SF, Melody

I would have had 0 dates in my age bracket the last 4 years!!!

- Zero -

How is this a good sign?
How is this going to lead to marriage exactly?

You have never met a woman that doesn't want to sleep with you on a first date!!!!!

I have never had one friend in my life who would!

What kind of women are you dating?

If you went out on a date and then they ran -you were dating.

Keep trying.

And she has already given you her answer. A freeloader forever.

Wow. She's definitely failed the job interview for marriage.


Sounds like they probably need to know up front so they go into the date without the expectation of sex. You might consider running a personal ad in the paper or online and specifically put that in the ad. That could fulfill the dual purpose of finding more people to date and also managing expectations up front. I know there are some number of women who feel that sex is expected in a dating relationship but who would rather avoid it, if only they could find a man who felt the same.

In a personal ad I would say something like "I'm looking for a non-sexual relationship until I get married." In person I might say something like "I hope it isn't too embarrassing to say this, but I wanted to make sure you know that I'm looking for a non-sexual relationship until I get married."

Truth be told I've never had to explain that because in the settings in which I found people to date it was always the assumption that people intended to not have sex until they got married. There are plenty of fish in the sea, but you have to make sure you're swimming in the right sea.

You do want to increase your dating pool, but not at all costs. You don't want to fill it with losers and freeloaders.

Yes. If you are not finding high quality women in your social circle, change your social circle.

You want to marry a hoe? Why not raise your standards? The end goal is to find a suitable wife, not to just go out on dates. When I have a job opening, I conduct interviews to find the best candidates, I don't just interview to be interviewing. If you aren't attracting the right kind of woman, you need to shop elsewhere.

I've never met a woman that had SF on a first date either.

All the women I dated in my age bracket (35-43) in the last 4 years, have university degrees and according jobs. With the exception of 4 (blind) internet dates (that did not lead to a second date).
ALL OF THEM slept with me within 2 weeks of the first date.

If I don't initiate, the women will...

This is Western-Europe, this is how it is.
I do not have a single male friend who experiences things differently here.

Try what I suggested about telling women up front that you aren't going to have a sexual relationship until you are married.


I am sure there are people who have the exact same experience here. I am equally sure that there are people there who don't have sex until marriage. And I am DEFINITELY sure that there are women there who would like to avoid having sex until marriage. I'm certain of it! As indiegirl (from Europe) described in a post to you on another thread, there are lots of women who only do this because they think they have to. If you tell them up front before you even go on a date that they don't have to, you are going to attract a lot of good women who will be relieved.

Do you have any friends who are churchgoers? You might ask them about their experience. Not everyone who is a church member abstains from sex until marriage, but there are many who do.

Markos, I have tried to tell girls up-front I do not want to have sex and just want to learn to know them... (I've think I written about it here some years ago)

IT HAS THE OPPOSITE EFFECT!

Once I started doing that women would invite themselves to my bed!
If I asked them why... they would say things like: "You are the only single guy I date that does not want to have sex with me."

SF in dating is like Shr�dingers cat: If you want it, you will not get it; if you don't want it, it will find you.

Interesting. What do they do if you decline?

I am sure there should be some around here, but as I said, I hardly meet single 30+ in general.

I don't know a single married person that did NOT have pre-marital sex including my parents, uncles, aunts and extended family.

Including all non-religious friends I've made while living in Portugal, Thailand, Cambodia and Indonesia.

NONE!

I have dated 20-something Muslim girls in Thailand and Indonesia.
(Dating over there includes another female as chaperone!)
Ofcourse these girls abstain from SF because of their religion and that was never a problem for me because it's the NORM over there.

But in Europe you are ABNORMAL or religious, if you abstain from SF.

I am neither.

Ofcourse! You are 100% correct. But threading these paths when things get heated while kissing is an emotional minefield...


These are my observations not my credo.

Really? Because this just sounds like a normal freeloader to me.

We have hoes here too, but you just need to avoid them. What in the hell does having a degree have to do with being loose and easy? There are lots of women who have degrees who are not promiscuous. It is no different than America. You just have to fish in another pond. If you tell a woman you don't agree with premarital sex and she won't go out with you, wouldn't that be a good thing? Do you really want to date a woman who puts out with other guys?

huh? Did you read your post? Marriage material would be willing to abandon her freeloader ways in marriage. The above example is an indication that she won't. In other words, she failed the job interview for marriage. Why would you DATE someone who is just there to DATE when your goal is marriage?

I just want to point out that geroldmodel is not a very good catch himself right now, if he is also willing to jump in the sack within the first two weeks of dating.

I would not date a man who did this, or anticipated it, or suggested it. I would not consider him marriage material.

This goes both ways. Expect more FROM yourself, not just FOR yourself.

Hi Melody,

Well if I did NOT date her... I wouldn't even know her thoughts about marriage, would I?

I've dated girls in the past who said they don't want a relationship... Yet, want a relationship a couple of weeks later.

I've dated girls in the past who said they would never marry, yet when I broke up with them they got engaged to someone else...

My female friends say that no single woman will ever claim she wants anything more than a fling at first. Because if she does, it means she will be easy... and no woman wants to appear easy.

That has never been my experience and I don't believe that. And a woman who wants a "fling" is EASY. She is a hoe.

I think you are hanging out with a loose crowd and should fish elsewhere.

Could someone point me to that part in Buyers/Renters/Freeloaders about NOT having SF before marriage... I can't find it in His Needs/Her Needs or Fall In love/Stay in love either.

If anything the Dr. speaks about fullfilling that need.

I also seem to have missed the part that all women who have premartital sex are hoe's...

I don't remember seeing Dr Harley's comments about premarital sex in the books. You can find it in his radio show, though.


Show me where he EVER says to fulfill that need outside of marriage.

I don't think that ALL women who have premarital sex are hoes and never said that. But women who won't date some guy who won't hop into bed with them is a hoe.

Seriously, if some woman won't date you unless you agree to have sex with her, don't you consider the strong possibility that she might have a disease? That should indicate to you that she is promiscuous, or is "rode hard and put up wet" as my dad used to say about such women.

Buyers, Renters, Freeloaders

Personal Characteristics That Match for Compatibility

1. Intelligence

2. Energy

You and your partner should be roughly equivalent to each other in energy. Energy is an important determiner of compatibility because so many of your lifestyle predispositions depend on your energy level. Leisure time activities and sexual interest are particularly sensitive to the amount of energy you have. People high in energy enjoy activities that burn that energy, even after work, while those with low energy levels would find such activities exhausting. In the case of sex, the more energy a person has, the more sex he or she tends to need. Since leisure activities and sex are two of the best ways to enjoy time together after marriage, incompatibility in these areas can make it very difficult for a couple to create a fulfilling and permanent romantic relationship. If one of you lies around watching TV while the other scurries about and can�t sit still, you�re probably a bad match. But if you find that you enjoy activities that require the same amount of energy from both of you, you probably pass the energy test.

Harley, Willard F. Jr.. Buyers, Renters & Freeloaders: Turning Revolving-Door Romance into Lasting Love (Kindle Locations 374-378). Baker Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

gerold, since Dr. Harley doesn't believe in premarital sex, what do you think he meant when he wrote that?

Since Dr Harley does not believe in pre-marital sex what do you think he means when he says "AFTER MARRIAGE?" Were you able to find ANY PLACE where he ever endorses pre-marital sex? Unless he changed his entire position last Friday,[haven't heard Friday show yet] his position has always been against pre-marital sex.

Right here he tells you how to test this, and it doesn't involve having sex.

Having been a single woman, I can tell you that's bull. And only easy girls say stuff like that.

I very much agree with this. Decent women will not go on a single date with a man who lives like this. If you want a higher class woman (more than a freeloader), you're going to have to be higher class yourself.

It doesn't even make any sense. Saying you want to have a "fling" gives the appearance of being easy.

gerold, here's a couple radio shows I have bookmarked on the subject:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=00940
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=2132
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=118

Also, you had a thread about this in 2013 and several people gave you several examples where Dr. Harley's opinion on the subject is recorded:

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2765726#Post2765726

Does it have to be in one of those three books? Or do you want to know what Dr. Harley's opinion on the subject is even if it's recorded elsewhere?

gerold, you're in a box and describing the box to us. The rest of us are out of the box and telling you what a wonderful world it is out here and encouraging you to get out of the box. I'm not sure you believe there's a box or an outside, though.

So Dr. Harley never WROTE IN HIS BOOKS against having pre-marital sex, nor did he write to have pre-marital sex.

Yet he lists sexual compatibility as important as intellectual compatibility in a SCIENCE based book about dating...

I don't care what Dr. Harley's PERSONAL beliefs are, I am only interested in his SCIENTIFIC beliefs.
(His personal believes also includes a mythical being in heaven that is not mentioned in any of his books and is irrelevant)

I recently found the scientific statistics on sex in my country:

- 43% of sexually active women report at least 1 sexual problem
- 35% of sexually active men report at least 1 sexual problem
- 22% of sexually active women report sexual DYSFUNCTION
- 12% of sexually active men report sexual DYSFUNCTION
==> Sexual dysfunction cannot be tested by doing leisure activities to compare energy levels, Markos

- People under 25 have their first sexual intercourse:

Before age 14: 14,5%
Between age 14 & 17: 74.5%
After age 17: 11%
==> Marriage is illegal here before 18
==> at least 89% of people in my country have pre-marital sex.

- 40% of the Christian/Catholic believers have pre-marital sex.

- I have never had an STD in my life, Melody.
Something in your theory about "hoe's must have a disease" does not seem to fit.

The radio shows I posted describe Dr. Harley's scientific beliefs.

What do you believe Dr. Harley is saying in that article excerpt you posted? Do you believe he is suggesting that people have sex before marriage to test sexual compatibility?

Hi Gerold,

Why are you arguing about this? You'll probably continue to have sex outside of wedlock. But not having premarital sex does serve a purpose besides a religious one--helping to have sober judgment.

I had premarital sex and it clouded my judgement of my ex. He is just kind of a freeloader at life--renter at best. I supported us 4 out of the 4.5 years we were married before he started his affair. He just didn't work, he was "working on his writing" and whatever. In the many years that I knew him he never published or even self-published a single thing. He will probably never be an author.

If I had really perceived these things well before I married him...well, I would not have married him. I won't ever have pre-marital sex again. It would attach me to a potential mate and cloud my judgement.

There are women everywhere who will wait. Even non-religious dating experts often recommend waiting until engagement (I think this is arbitrary and it should be marriage, but the thinking is clear--wait until you know think there is some sort of commitment).

The reason you are arguing now is that you are falling in love with this woman and you want her to want the same thing you do. But she doesn't. So now there is pain. But face the reality that she doesn't want the same thing. You can do what a lot of people do, which is just to carry on as long as possible until there is an inevitable implosion OR you can admit this was a mistake and move on to find a relationship with a buyer. Waiting to have sex will help you with an endeavor.

Not sure, but he makes it very clear he is against pre-marital sex. If you knew him and listened to his radio shows you would know this.


How do you think people get STDs? By being promiscuous. If you sleep around like an alley cat in heat, you are very likely to get an STD. Why would you risk that?

ITA that's bull. I am a single woman myself and have several single friends and have never heard of a woman saying she only wants a fling.

The only people I have seen say things like that are disgusting people on Tinder.

Dr. Harley has said in several radio programs that he advises against premarital sex in general, even for folks who aren't religious,because it can indeed cloud the relationship.

Many women who engage in non-marital sex with a man tend to become more emotionally attached, while men can often have sex without attachment. She develops expectations for the relationship and is often hurt when the relationship falls apart.

I've heard men say they would want to "test" the sexual compatibility before marrying, but many quality women would find this repugnant - the idea of testing a woman's sexuality as though she were a used car. YUCK!

Most women who are in love with their husband will be sexually compatible with their husband. And either spouse can learn techniques to become a good sexual partner.

I know this is slightly old now but I have some things to say. I've been coming in and out of marriage builders for some time. I keep coming back because it is without doubt the best advice I've found over the years.

I'm too not Christian like this poster but I still greatly appreciate Dr Harley's work.

I am 41, very attractive with most men rating me as an 8-10 in attractive stakes (even if that is pretty crude), I'm intelligent (studying as a mature student for a degree), I work, I am funny, loyal, kind, passionate, loving and from Europe!

...and I wouldn't date this poster. Gerold if you would like to find out why please ask me.