Marriage Builders
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Feeling lost and withdrawn - 09/27/07 06:28 PM
HI, I am new here .. I been reading alot on this site and its very resourceful. I am 29 .. been married for 9 years almost 10, and have been with my wife for since she and I were 15 and 16. We have 2 wonderful children aged 9 and 3 (1 daughter and 1 son).

Over the past while we have grown apart (or so it seems).And have taken eachother for granted. We get little to no outside hlp from our familes to give us breaks from our children (they take the older one but not the younger one and when they do take the younger one .. its never for any signifigant length of time). My wife works 3 days a week as a dental assistant for a pediatric office .. and I work all week as a commercial building maintenance manager and on call 24/7. We both have weekends off(unless i get called in) but are usually so consumed. Our work scheduals are lined up tho so thats good i guesss ... kids get dropped off at daycare in the morning 3 days a week before my daughter has to go to school. on sunday nights my wife usually cooks dinner that will last us through the days shes at work(lunch and dinner). We leave the house at like 7am then get home at 6pm and kids go to bed at 8/9pm. One of us is usually child minding while the other is preparing dinner/lunches etc ... and after all thats done .. she wants to relax. And of course .. i see it as an oppertunity to possibly indulge in our relationship but shes tired and says its just another chore.

We are both not happy in our relationship. My wife says shes falling out of love with me and doesnt feel affectionate towards me anymore. We are both addicted to online games .. (doesnt hlp that we cant go out and be a couple casue we are stuck at home in the evenings after kids go to bed, so online games have become our social life).

After reading this site .. i have come to learn that neither of us are meeting eachothers emotional needs .. and CONSTANTLY stabbing eachother with love busters ... prolly more so me using the love busters than her but both of us none the less ... i have started taking steps to avoid them ... but when we have a heated conversation .. she pulls them out full force and says after all the years of crap and lack of caring i have shown (which i dont htink is totally true due to our time scheduals but its how she feels and i dont own her feelings) she just does not give a ****** what i do anymore .. nor does she care how i feel anymore. I have quit my gaming somewhat to show her i really do care recently in an attempt to reconciliate our relationship cause it means more to me than anyhting .. but to her the kids mean more than our relationship.. but it seems my efforts are failing .. she responds to my affections with negativity and name calling and that im doing it to just GET SOME and that i deserve how shes treating me, but it could possibly be too soon for any of my efforts take affect yet anyhow. My wife is very strong headed and passionate when shes got her mind set on something and that works for both sides of her mood... and im the passive one who is a day to day guy, unless a conversation has left me defensive or her defensive then i tend ot lash out a bit when she backs me in a corner and we start throwing love busters at eachother again. I have never hit my wife i admit i have prolly emotionally abused her and she has emotionally abused me ... i love my children .. i love my wife .. im just confused and lost atm ... wondering how to get her feeling like my intentions are genuine casue she feels they are not. Shes even told me to go bang other chicks, but i dont want to .. we are christians and have stopped going to church because all they wanted from us was work and money... and when we did work for them (i was on tech and my wife did tots) we were usually on demand by hte church at differenttimes .. so we never got to enjoy service togheter. Seems everywhere we turn ... somthing is pulling us apart ... and now that she is withdrawn .. and we have had a few outbursts ... and are feeling emotionaly withdrawn .. im finding life to be getting dulll rahter quickly .. and am falling into depression due to failing efforts that i am trying to be genuine about. She says MAYBE she can forgive me for my recent lack fo caring but she dont know how long it will be if ever ... but that my true colours where shown last week when i kinda disregarded her feelings and left her with the kids for an hour while i went ot my friends place to bring him some files from my PC. I know i was wrong now .. and this sort of hting has been going on for quite some time now .. and its taking a toll on our relationship .. to the point where i am beginning to resent our children .. and struggle for my wifes attention. She disregards my feelings now so everytime i bring up how i feel she shrugs it off as so what you didnt care how I felt. (which i did i was just an idiot and couldnt see past the end of my nose) Any suggestions/advice would be much appreciatve as i am at a loss of cause here .. and willing to do whatever it takes to win her afffection back. Sorry im talking in circles .. and im not good at expressing what i feel ... or putting things together very well to explain my point of view .. and DEF not in a heated conversation. I need to quit smoking pot too (she wont tho but her head is better than mine) .. i think that will hlp. But i am at a loss here no how to get things back on track. I miss my wife even tho shes in my presence ... it doesnt feel like shes there.

Sorry for rambling ... i hope i covered it all ..
Posted By: CuthbertCalculus Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 09/27/07 07:29 PM
NiceGuy,

Do you think it is possible there could be another man in the picture?

In my experience, when a husband tries to change to make the marriage better for his wife, and she responds as negatively as yours has, odds are good that her heart is elsewhere.

Do you think this might be the case? Would you be willing to do a little investigating to find out?

If your wife is having an emotional affair (EA) or even a physical affair (PA) with another man, that doesn't mean your marriage is over. There are things you can do to end the affair and win back your wife. This site has information on how to do just that - but you need to know if she is having an affair, because the things you you must do are different than if she is not.

I recommend you read all the material here (sounds like you have already read a lot of it), including the stuff on infidelity, and start investigating whether or not there might be another man in the picture. Keep posting here, you'll get a lot of support from the folks here.

BTW, I think giving up the online gaming was a good move on your part. That stuff is very time-consuming, and husbands need to spend that kind of time on their wives, not on a game. I think giving up the pot would also be a good move.

Good luck
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 09/27/07 07:50 PM
Thanx for the reply ... i dont think shes cheating .. maybe having an emotional affair .. but her expresing her feelings and talking about her feelings towards someone else doesnt realy bother me .. only if it was to become physical .. but she doesnt have time to be physical with anyone .. unless shes falling for one of her dentists at work. (which again i doubt casue she claims men are scum and she would turn lesbian if she could but shes not interested in women either) .... she still games when the chores are done .. and our marriage has been on the rocks for a while now ... just the past stuff has really triggerd her to become distant .. and its prolly due to my neglegance. She doesnt wana stop smoking pot (its her get away after kids are in bed) ... and MSN is her outlet for expressing herslf to her online friends so she can bash me or whatever ... she would rather talk to them than me now .. but moslty casue when we both gamed ... we would be off in our own worlds ... yeah they consume alot of time .. and casue extra drama than what is necessary.

She has stated that maybe time will fix it but she thinks i need to grow up more ...and become her partner ... she says she doesnt wana feel this way ... but she cant hlp how she feels right now .. until i start SHOWING her MORE that i am on the same page with her. We can get along as long as i am not apprearing NEEDY in anyway ... as soon as i even mention that id like sex .. or intamacy with her ... she gets defensive .. and goes on about how all i care about is sex ... now i do care about sex mroe than she does .. and maybe i do put too much emphasis on it .. and maybe that makes me an [censored] .. i dunno .. she expresses her needs in a beat around the bush sorta way ... and i have printed out hte love busters for us to fill out now .. and am going to present them to her later today and see how that goes. I hate things that take too long .. i know it cant be fixed right away .. but im beating my self up trying to wrap my head aroudn the entire thing .. and its casueing me to not be productive at work .. in fact im at work right now .. jsut worrying about my marriage. and pressing F5 over and over for this thread hoping for some definate answer .. (althought im fooling myself into thinking there will be one) and reading other threads of similar topic. And to top it off .. its only been recently that i have been receptive to it ... my wife says .. she will pretend to be happy for me if thats what i want ... but thats not what i want .. i want genuine response .. and not a programmed one.
Posted By: MicheleG Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 09/27/07 08:06 PM
MrNG,

Do you know what her top eomtional needs are? There's a questionnaire that you can download on this site (there are a few MOF). Both of you should fill it out. Tell her you are at a loss and that you want to restore your marriage. You know that she has withdrawn. You are willing to try anything. Fill it out honestly.

You can get the LB (love buster) questionaire also and fill it out, but I think the EN one should come first.

When she does it, read it, ask questions so that you completely understand not only WHAT her ENs are, but HOW to meet them. The way she needs them met so they hit the mark and fill up her love bank.

Start there.

Yo're the one who is here, so you've got to start the ball rolling.

Work on this for a few weeks, see if she is more receptive to you and your needs, BUT...don't expect your ENs to be met right away. Don't push. Don't try to get something for doing something. We women feel that. We like to have things done for us just cause you want to, not to get something in return.

But the beauty in all this, is that when she starts feeling her love bank being filled with your deposits (meeting her needs as SHE NEEDS THEM MET) she will start to feel some love in return.

Now CC has a point up above, but you just may not be htting the mark. I have experienced that my H tries to meet my needs the way HE would like that need to be met. So he misses the mark. He may be trying real hard, but not getting anywhere. Like a person is dying of thirst and you keep trying your darndest to feed them hamburgers....no deposits are made.

Read this site, understand the concepts and fill out the questionnaires. The LB one is to figure out the behaviors that cause withdrawals from your love bank (selfish demands, angry outbursts, independent behavior, annoying habits, etc). Try to eliminate those. Both of you.

In a few weeks, if this has been done like it's supposed to be, you should see SOMETHING, if not there may be other problems worth looking into.
Posted By: MicheleG Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 09/27/07 08:11 PM
Quote
i dont think shes cheating .. maybe having an emotional affair

I hope this is not the case. An emotional affair is cheating. You can read the devastation on Gen Quest II that an EA can cause. EA/PA are types of infidelities. Both devastating and both harmful to a M. Better look into this.
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 09/27/07 08:20 PM
ah ... well .. i know she chats to other guys that are across the world .. with her MSN .. but i see it as no big deal .. maybe i should? She meets ppl in online games .. then adds them to her MSN. But i do too .. and i have had many converstaions myself with ppl in those online games when i was on the rocks with my wife in the past and got good advice .. most of hte good advice was from other women tho .. is that considered an emotional affair??

Shes got a friend that keeps pushin her to leave me whenever they hang out ... now shes doesnt appreciate her lack of support for our marriage .. and doesnt hang with her that much ... but they still chat. My wife told me this in confidence tho ... but i feel like ripping her friends head off for it.
Posted By: CuthbertCalculus Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 09/27/07 08:38 PM
NiceGuy,

Chatting with people online isn't a very good thing for married people, especially when their marriage is shaky. I've been here about 2.5 years and I've seen several people whose spouse started an affair online.

Hopefully that is not what you are dealing with. I think Michele may be right that you may not be doing the right things to meet your wife's Emotional Needs. However, even if you were, it is also vital that you not Love Bust - because Love Busters will undo all the gains you may have made by meeting ENs. So, work on eliminating your Love Busters. At the same time, try to meet her particular ENs as best as you can.

With all that said, here is why I am troubled by your description. It sounds like you have already tried to start changing things, and it sounds like you have talked with her about wanting to change things. I think that most of the time, if a wife is not having an affair, she would be very happy to hear that from her husband - and would show some encouragement.

Your wife's reaction seems to be the opposite.

Anyway, stop Love Busting, start trying to meet her ENs, and keep your eyes open to see if everything she does is aboveboard. Forget about yourself and your needs right now, because it takes work to try to woo her back - just be patient.

You should see some encouraging signs from her fairly quickly once you start doing these things. If you don't, that would be a pretty clear sign that her interest is elsewhere.

Oh, and don't discount the negative impact of Emotional Affairs. Emotional Affairs can be just as damaging to the marriage as Physical Affairs, especially if the wife is the one having the EA.

Good luck. And keep posting.
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 09/27/07 09:05 PM
Her reactions used to be positive ... i guess i been an [censored] too long and she no longer cares what i feel
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 09/27/07 09:07 PM
she used to confide in other guys ... and apparently has stopped that .. casue i apparently act jealous that she has guy friends htat she likes to talk to ... so she confides with other women now apparently ... how can i make sure shes not having some kind of affair? what steps can i take to find out?
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 09/27/07 09:48 PM
I just had a heated MSN chat with her ... im an [censored] still .. and im having a hard time WANTING to be nice and trying yto make ammends with her for what i did and we ended up hvaing chat rage ... its almost time for me to go home to her ... but what is there to go home too ??? more fighting?? hardly seems worth it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />:(:(:(:( I just feel like dieing atm .. I know i ****** up .. but she cant forgive me ... and its making me even more depressed.
Posted By: hanora Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 09/27/07 11:38 PM
15 hours of undivided attention per week. And not by computer.

OK, you have the kids - you can go to the park with the kids, you can take a walk, you can go out for ice cream. There are things you can do.

Turn off the computers for a week, or set timers for 1 hour a day. Find something to do together like a jigsaw puzzle, or cribbage, or plan to paint the bathroom, or make Christmas presents, plan a dinner party. Cook together, and shop together - it's fun - we used to do cooking weekends and did about 20 meals in one day. Then you will have some free days.

You need to lose the computers and have some real life fun.
Posted By: MicheleG Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 09/28/07 12:18 AM
MrNG
If nothing else, begin by not having volatile discussions. Maintain control of emotions and stay calm.

You won't get anywhere arguing. Read the basic principles here. When you finally learn them and use them, there will not be any need to argue.

Learn to negotiate and learn the Policy of Joint Agreement.
And stop the LBs.
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 09/28/07 04:14 PM
Well ... you guys are right ... and i have already begun it ... i guess both of us being glued to the computer over hte past few years during time when we should have been doing things as husband and wife after kids were in bed has casued us to drift apart a bit. And I have GOOD news ... i got home yesterday ... and for the first time in a LONG time (prolly months) we actually had a non blaming ... civil .. inteligent conversation about this whole ordeal .. now its not fixed by far .. but it feels good to talk to her in a non hostile enviroment ... we hugged after i talked about the love busters and how we felt using "I" alot .. instead of "YOU!" and we both came to an agreement to spend more time focusing on eachother instead of hte computers (herself included) I had to stress that it didnt necessarily mean just sex .. casue i know thats not one of her main EN's but to just be togther for conversation .. and affection .. and begin with that and see what it leads to from there .. and once we have reestablished the open lines of communication again .. and feel reconnected then we can move forward. I appreciate this site .. and the info that is provided and all your non biased support. Its really great.. and even tho we are very young .. and been together since such a young age ... that we can still grow and learn in our marriage and make it work. The concepts and ideas here have really tuned me up to take notice of what i am NOT doing .. that i should have done LONG ago.

Thanks!
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 10/16/07 08:58 PM
Update ...

Well .. things are going ok ... rest assured she is not having any affair of any kind .. we hardly go on our PCs now .. and have had a few evening parties to increase our social life ... im helping aorund hte house more where i can and when i remember. shes alot more affectionate to me now than she has been in months .. we have even had some great sex innitiated by her while i was reading up on some hunting regulations after my shower lol.

Recently we had a bit of conflict .. and not realizing it til after i was a bit unsupporitve of the situation. Our babysitter is from england .. and her and her hubby and 3 kids have been here for years ... SHE committed an EA and PA with a guy ... and her hubby got mad and comitted one too when he went back to england so now he got a job again in england now and his immigration visitors visa is almost expired and they are getting a divorce over their infidelity ... but SHE doesnt wana go back to england. her kids are in school with mine and now she may be forced to go back when he leaves ... this lady is my wifes best friend and its hurting my wife ... now i mentioned i was a bit insensative about it ... casue i said ..well .. "what can we do? i guess its goodbye then" ... she got all mad ... i didnt realize what i said .. or that it was insensative until after. SO i looked up some immigration laws for htem and sent some links to try and hlp them out.

THings were going good unitl this happeend .. less LB .. more affection .. and more ENs being met on both our parts but it came to a crashing halt when she found out her bnest friend is prolly gonna have to move back to england .. not to mentoin shes our child care during the day when we are at work so we will loose out on that and have to put our kids in a regular public daycare .. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

SO im a jerk again ... casue of my insensativity ... i didnt say anything other than sorry i didnt realize i was being insensative .. then i began the immigration laws research .. and went to a friends house for the evening after hlping get kids to bed.

Thanks for listneing ...
Posted By: MrAlias Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 10/16/07 09:43 PM
MNG,

A good apology will always include your plan of action to reassure her that what you did to cause the hurt will not happen again. It doesn't mean you won't necessarily falter from your plan but it shows that you have their best interests at heart and are trying to be more sensitive to their feelings.

That should help you feel less insensitive ... and should help train you not to be insensitive.

Put yourself in her shoes, try to understand how she's feeling in the moment instead of how you feel in the moment. It's not easy but do-able.

I love walkingthefield's signature line ... it says:

*** Warning *** Make sure brain is engaged before shifting mouth out of Neutral.
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 03/02/09 09:38 PM
OK .... its been a LONG time since I posted ..

So i htought id update a few things here.

Well ... things are going great now. I did some love and respect stuff from my church ... that went ok. Much time has passed and we have had many conversations and my wife has forgiven me of me spying on her personal emails and such. We have a new situation that is putting a damper on our relationship but it came after we prayed for it (be careful what you pray for).

My 21 YO brother now lives with us ... he has lived the party life since he got booted out of my mothers place. We had been praying and praying for god to direct us to give someone help and a month or so after praying i get a call from my brother. So we moved him in becasue he was gonna end up on the streets til he got on his feet. So my wife and I have been collectivly kickin his [censored] to get a job .. and get his life in order again. BUT the frusterating part is, he seems to be taking advantage of us ... if we dont tell him what to do .. he does nothing. He has no ambition .. no drive ... nothing. SO ... this puts my wife and I in conflict because of his lack of ambition. Its not necessarily ME shes mad at .. and not necessarily her im mad at ... but our frusteration lvls wear off on eachother to the point we love bust eachother out of pure frusteration.

HOWEVER .. just recently we seen a movie called "FIREPROOF" .. its a christian film about a non christian guy that is having a hard time with his home life and how he goes about changing it. In the story .. the main character is a fire fighter.... and hes a hero to everyone but his wife. Basicly .. everything that they go through in the movie was a reflection of my marriage.

Now ... i had asked my wife to look at the books from here .. his needs her neeeds etc ... i bought all those ... they are great tools but she wants nothing to do with them because they are MY suggestions for her to read them. Since this movie tho she has opened her eyes a bit to the problems in our relationship... and at the end of the movie said to me "I wana buy that book!" (the one in fireproof) ... SO ... i bought it for her the other day and we are both currently going through it. Its not easy tho ... its a 40 day dare called THE LOVE DARE. And each day has a dare for you to do. For instance:

Day 1 is Patience.... and you are dared to bite your lip even if tempted to say something negative to your spouse.

Day 2 is kindness and a dare to do something for your spouse unexpeceted without expectation of reciprocation.

Day 3 your dare reminds you that where you put your time and energy and money is also where your heart is.

The book reminds you that no matter how tough it is ... if you give up you wont get the benifits of the outcome. Each day opens up a door for another way to love our spouse.

In hte movie FIREPROOF .... the guy recieves that book from his dad ... his dad asks him to wait 40 days before he divorces if he has any drive left to save his marriage. So he follows through with hte book ... but through the entire movie his wife doesnt respond how he expects and he realizes 1/2 way that his heart really wasnt into it like he had thought and that he truely wasny loving his wife the way god intended ... and it wasnt until the end of hte movie when it all comes together. (i wont say more incase you wana watch it)

I think if your having a troublesome marriage .... FireProof will open your eyes a bit becasue it starts off in a marriage thats been going on for 7 years and how they take eachother for granted and how to win back the heart of your signifigant other the way god wants us too .... truely an eye opener .. I cried and so did my wife and even tho we been together for 16 years now (im 31 and shes almost 30) we really did not know true unconditional love until after seeing this film and now taking part in the book that film is about ...

But i need some prayer ... i need prayer for patience with my brother and for him to get some ambition to get his own place so i can continue to build the relationship i NEED with my wife .. as it is he is like a 3rd wheel atm ... but doesnt got a pot to piss in if i kick him out right now. Its been 4 months now since he moved in .... he is wearing down our brotherly relationship and keeps my wife in a negative mood and i have told him this but he doesnt seem to care ... just goes through the motions to get by ... and nothing more.

Thanks for listening. I may start a seperate topic on fireproof just to put more focus on it .. i just wanted to mention it here and how it affected my life in regards to my situation.

God Bless

Edit: Here is a link to the fireproof trailor.


Enjoy
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 03/02/09 09:45 PM
I think you found your answer.

Quote
Day 3 your dare reminds you that where you put your time and energy and money is also where your heart is.

You two are investing in your brother with good intent, but taking away the consequences he has given him. You've given him the hand up, shown him that he's never alone. I think now it's time for you to Let Go and Let God. Your brother will be okay. He knows what to do, and he's in good hands. You can supoort him by believing in him that he has what it takes to improve his life.

Quote
just goes through the motions to get by ... and nothing more.

You have your answer, when you let him go, he will go through the motions to get by in another place.
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 03/02/09 09:57 PM
Yup i know ... we are working on that ... he just got a 2nd job today (after much [censored] kicking) ... and that puts him at 16hr days now... so he will soo see how tough it is. He knows hes on his last legs in our home ... and we do know the answer... but becasue of my love for my bro i just cant let him go yet. Soon tho. VERY soon ... my patience is with HIM is coming to an end. He knows it ... we no longer cook his meals ... or kick his [censored] .. and we will be giving him a time limit to get his own place after I discuss it with my wife.

I need my house back ... in order to spend the quality time with my wife that i need to rebuild our marrige again... i cant plan romantic stuff with him sharing our living room .... our kitchen ... our dinning room ... meals .. etc .. its just not gonna work and We see that now ... especially reading that love dare book ... we DEF need to invest more time in US rather than babysitting him and letting the frusterations boil over.

Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 02/17/10 10:24 PM
Well .. im back ... my heart is broken. My brother is moved out after my wife caught him going through our dressers after coming home early one day.

HOwever .... we as a couple are still not doing very well .. it comes and goes in radical spurts .. but recently i got the "i love you but im not in love with you" anymore speach. My heart is bleeding right now .. we both have aversions ... especially her .. she def has a sexual aversion and i have a lack of confidence to even perform properly when we are trying to perform SF for eachother. We start marriage councelling on March 2nd ... as we both have agreed that we cant do it on our own. She seems to want to work on it .. but doesnt seem to believe that anyhting is going to change. I have wrote poems .. and given her flowers ... given her space ... etc ... and that dreadful line still occurs. I do hope councelling will help us get back in love again. I love her with all my heart i want us to be fixed! I cant just throw away all we have worked for... yet thats how it feels like its going to go.

"sigh" i wish march 2nd would hurry up ... but on the good side of things .. we finally have our first ever 2 day get away without kids coming up in may booked so maybe that will give us some time to reconnect. i sure hope so .. i feel so lost and helpless.
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 02/17/10 11:13 PM
Welcome back, MNG...

It's understandable that in your whole story (since 2007) that as you and your wife begin new habits (getting away from the computers at home) and like the new outcome over time, then you'll feel better about the marriage.

When stressful situations come along, you won't feel the same even if you're doing the same...we don't form "habits for stress"...so when you guys encountered the possible loss of your daycare provider (and friend), then the LBs increased and meeting ENs decreased, temporarily. Accepting this as part, staying aware and doing MORE reassurance, understanding, mirroring helps you through.

Same with when your brother stressed your marriage.

Now you're back to just you two and there's damage resulting from the stress and conflicting feelings about your brother, your past choices and present ones. Understandable. Reasonable.

Same for your wife. However, she's back to saying that speech, which is a wayward state of mind...I can guarantee you that...from my own experience. Also, does she still believe that her previous mistreatment of you was deserved, what you earned through your neglect? I ask because if she still has this belief, and you do, also, then the flip side of it says that she deserved your neglect. This is an important belief to explore in MC.

so make sure your counselor knows MB...the four rules of marriage, because The Policy of Radical Honesty is key here...for you guys to amend, repair and grow together.

Kudos on the planned May getaway...make weekly time alone your top priority for the marriage...with one weekend away every three months at most...because this being your first ever says you guys will toss with the wind instead of direct your actions...

you need this for a strong family, loving parents...your marriage is the most important part of parenting. Trading weekends with other parents instead of payments enables more marriages to experience this...

Understandable you feel lost and helpless. You really aren't. Please know that. You are acting to the plan to grow your marriage...counseling, posting...make sure you stick with it...like your wife...in good times and in bad.

smile

And give back...post to others...it's when you learn the most. I promise. You can do this. She may not believe anything will help your marriage...there are times when one partner loses hope...and the other keeps hope for them both. Just as each partner acting from love even when they don't feel it is the key to a happy marriage...because loving feelings will follow.

Know you both can fall in love again and again...listen more, share more, and you will.

LA
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 02/18/10 07:01 PM
Thanks for your reply ... it really gives me continued hope. Sorry i dont post very often i get so caught up in life.

Yesterday was really bad emotionaly for both of us, but today is a better day and i woke up this morning and descided to choose to have a good day and try to focus on the little things that bring moments of joy for me such as my children smiling etc and avoid the negativity for a while kinda like a time out for my heart.. I love my wife with all my heart and soul and body and mind and some of the things shes been saying really break my heart... well .. maybe not so much my mind these days ... but ...One day at a time. I know im DEF no prince charming and got alot to work on myself aswell.

As for posting to others ... im not sure i feel qualified to assist others when i cant even fix my own problems. But I guess not everyones problems are the same and maybe i do have something to offer so ill try and do that too.

I am glad for this resource and the encouragement... its helped ease my struggles a few times now and keep my hopes up. But of course its a continuing effort and nothing changes over night.
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 02/18/10 07:09 PM
Sounds like a plan you've formulated (focusing on the tiny joys, finding your gratitude in the midst of pain) to get you through to 3/2/10.

You do have something to offer. That's the given of being human. As to credibility--that's for others to decide. Yours is to share...that's under your control.

When she says your trigger phrase (I love you but am not in love with you), what have you said in response?

Some responses you can give her, if they are honest for you:

"Oh, I understand you don't feel in love with me right now. I remember you feeling that way before. I want you to have a lot of loving feelings for me and I believe we're taking the steps so that we both can be in love with each other again."

Remind yourself that she chooses to be married to you every single day...comes from her mind, not her heart, when she no longer has loving feelings...she still chooses you.

As do you.

Even when you don't feel like it...and we don't, all the time. Choice is ours.

Tell her today you feel better because of the way you're choosing your thoughts. Treat her as your equal partner, for she is...and her not feeling in love with you is also due to her own choices, too. Not all you. She can block your love deposits, by discounting and dismissing them. You can't control that.

Make them, anyway.

smile

LA
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 02/19/10 12:21 AM
Thanks LA, Your advice is very sound.

Originally Posted by LovingAnyway
When she says your trigger phrase (I love you but am not in love with you), what have you said in response?

I told her that it breaks my heart to hear those words and that i am still in love with her no matter what.

As for making love deposits and not being able to control how she responds to it and doing it anyways, I will do that. That makes alot of sence.

I think tonight we are at a truce today ... i just called her and shes excited to get the kids to bed and watch "survivor" tonight, and since we live in vancouver we will be watching the mens hockey tonight too (we both are canucks fans and fans of team canada for the olympic hockey). So it seems we have both stopped putting focus on the negative for at least today, so im not going to bring up anyhting tonight so we can keep the peace and enjoy an evening without DJ's and AO's and see where the evening leads us to.

Thanks
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 02/22/10 06:52 PM
Update appreciated...scheduling a 20minute time to talk about lovebusters and EN deposits, once a week, is really healthy. And telling her ahead of time (even a few days) to POJA that time, is great (can make love deposits themselves)...and for you to say during that Relationship talk time, "I understood you believe you aren't in love with me right now."

Will take some of the stab out of it...and you lied to her when you said you'd feel in love with her no matter what. You can not feel in love (when LBs are draining the bank faster than the deposits), and you will still act from love for her, because that's what you do...and THEN the loving feelings follow.

Don't cut your wife out of the equation...she really won't feel fully in love with you if she's not acting from love (or discounts her loving actions...feelings follow actions, not the other way around).

Not all you...but mostly...and you handled yourself really well, I think, MNG.

LA
Posted By: christiantherapy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 02/23/10 04:00 AM
great story and good feedback.
Good luck to you and to your family.
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 02/23/10 05:54 PM
Thanks Christian. If we stay focused and commited and not let our hearts lead us but lead our hearts then all should be ok eventually. I hope. With god there is always hope and it is my belief that everything happens for a reason and god will turn it into good.

But an update ... canada lost vs usa. BOooo ... lol .. seriously tho the update i wanted to talk about was my MC called me yesterday asking if i could bump up our appointment to TODAY! ... So i did a mad panic rush to find a bb sitter for our children to make this happen .. and now it is.

I am nervous .. I have never done anyhting like this ... nor do i know what to expect. Our MC is a christian MC so im hoping that it will have a good impact on us both and bring us back to a level playing field.. One thing i hope is that my wife doesnt descide that she doesnt need this after one session but keeps an open mind to what the MC has to say. Also it seems my wife, through the love dare book, is coming to realize that love isnt always a feeling you have .. but a choice and so with that attitude she initiated SF for meh! .. woots! I had said this to her before but shes didnt hear me i guess but now that shes looking into it herself shes taken it on like her own idea. However, I was quite content .. but was taken back by it becasue its not like her to instigate SF, but ill take it! Also it could have been the 2 good talks we had heart to heart over the weekend without kids present, they where about 20mins each time but it sure felt good to just say what was on my mind instead of being timid and keeping it back and trying to not hurt feelings. I was afraid it was going to end in a fight .. but they both ended in hugs so your right LA they did deposit into the love banks.

LA you stated i lied ... i guess you could look at it that way. But the way i see it is, that even if im not feeling in love .. im still in love with my wife so i say it to affirm that i do love her no matter what. I guess the context was wrong in which it was stated.

What are some of the things i should expect from a MC session ... especially my first one .. what should i ask?? How will i know if this person will be right for us to work out our issues? What should i look for? My wife seems to think things are getting better already without the MC involved .. but i think otherwise and that our emotions will hit the fan again next time we fight and bring it alll up again right where we left off. I dont want that ...

edit: I need to update my sig ... its been almost a year since i did.

Edit2: ok sig updated
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 02/23/10 06:46 PM
*oops, posted in the wrong thread. Sorry!*
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 02/23/10 07:37 PM
MNG,

Yes, I think that was what you meant all along...just watch your words so that they are truer than before...like you've already been doing (the two 20 min talks with your wife)...and HUGE HURRAHS for your wife and initiating SF! If that hit your admiration and appreciation in a big way, be sure to pass that back to her with all your sincerity...because to me, it sounds like she made some major love deposits.

smile

Originally Posted by MrNiceGuy
Thanks Christian. If we stay focused and commited and not let our hearts lead us but lead our hearts then all should be ok eventually. I hope. With god there is always hope and it is my belief that everything happens for a reason and god will turn it into good.

This is beautifully put. Great choice in choosing a Christian MC...and for feeling afraid and going, anyway.

You're rockin' it. laugh

When we say no matter what, we're in the extreme...because if you both divorced and stopped meeting each other ENs, had little to no contact over time...then you really would not have any loving feelings left for her (and that can happen in the marriage, too, when both of you are in deep withdrawal, same situations)...so the no matter what isn't real...over time and changes, your choice can change to love your wife, even in a healthy way, because of her choices to leave the marriage, have no contact...or yours to choose not to...

However, that doesn't take away from the way I see you committed to The Marriage...you are going to love, honor, respect and cherish The Marriage, no matter what, even when you don't feel like doing those for your wife sometimes. As long as The Marriage is there, so are you. That's what I really hear you saying...acting from love for The Union...

You have chosen a Christian, Pro-Marriage counselor...ask him about his/her knowledge of Marriage Builders or Dr. Willard Harley's work? Both of you will be asked what your goal for counseling is...and it's okay if you have different goals.

You will know as you go, MNG...ask for what you want most, for clarification when you don't understand...ask for homework exercises for communication, intimacy, understanding...for healthy connection through conflict (being safe to negotiate with each other)...

and especially, how to slip up, react in old ways temporarily, and truly forgive and amend...and keep the new behaviors going...because you truly do love one another and want to have a thriving, in-love marriage.

Do the homework, reading assignments...do not interrupt or talk over your spouse or the MC during the session. If you don't believe you're being heard, understood (okay not to be agreed with) or validated, then tell the MC.

Trust God to bring you who and what you need, when you need it...and to participate in the process.

You're doing great...

LA
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 03/03/10 11:41 PM
Edited becasue i think i wrote too much info .... i will think of a better way to type it out later.
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 04/14/10 07:57 PM
Ok ... just an update here. My wife and I attended 4 sessions of marriage counselling. First time .. we went together. That went ok ... wasnt quite what i expected but none the less my wife came and i felt very supported because she did descide to go after previously telling me no. During the session we discussed alot of things ... but she (the MC) kept asking how that made us FEEL ... when we left (she gave us an extra 30mins almost of free time due to my wifes emotional state after rehashing everything, we left feeling a bit ripped off .. but none the less we made 3 more appointments.

The 2nd appointment i was asked to come in by myself incase i was with holding info due to my spouses presence in the previous session. That wasnt the case really .. but i went along with it anyhow. We talked alot more this time becasue the previous session was a vent fest for my wife with alot of exagerations like "you always" and "you never" statements and alot of how she feels. But i felt the counsellor was seeing through that anyhow by watching my body language while my wife vented. Anyhow ... my session ended up being mostly about my past as she asked questions that dug deeper into my childhood i guess to try and find the root of the negative behaviours that may have fallen into instincts and habits as the MB principles indicate. She was also aware of MB concepts but didnt really acknoledge them very much. That was all fine and she asked me to just have some more patience for my wife at the end of it and said she would address some of hte discussed issues with her and ask her more about her childhood and her side of things again on the next visit.

The 3rd visit was for my wife to go in alone .. dont know what was said ... didnt really care to ask my wife what was said. My wife came abck with a seemingly new outlook on things .. but complained about the cost! IT was after that that i re printed out all the MB stuff into a binder and told my wife that if we could just spend time together going through THIS stuff there would be no need for our MC (but i think it did break the ice for her). She kinda sorta agreed but since we had one more appointment coming up .. we would do some of that and also shee what the MC would have to say after we reunited in her presence after both of our individual sessions.

Session 4 both my wife and I had totally different outlooks on things. We for some reason had a shift in energy after reading POJA and PORA and the love bank concept. My wife and I both explained what we needed to do for each other using the principles and as she started discussing it .. it wasnt emotional anymore. It became quite clear what we had to do! The MC was smiling tho because we were snuggling in the waiting room when she came to get us and we both had positive energy coming from us and both had rational thought processing going on and she could see we were feeling in love. She had given my wife some homework on session 3 and we did it together and presented it to her on our together session and she seemed quite pleased.

After the 4th session was over .. we didnt make any more appointments. We walked out cuddling and holding hands with smiles on our faces.

During our times in between sessions .. as we began to read the MB principles TOGETHER (that was very awesome btw the feeling nad sharing HNHN with my wife and reading outloud it began to click in my wifes head! She was constantly coming up with examples of her own that she could relate to and got increasingly more excited about the info as she relate4d to it more and more. We are not done the book but read all the BASICS stuff out loud before we started the book that i had printed off sitting in bed together (very romantic btw)and then proceeded to the book. After reading the first 2 chapters of HNHN thats when the light bulb really came on for her (this was after the 4th MC session tho because she agreed if we cut out MC due to costs she would whole heartedly take on MB with me) And shes glad she did even tho she didnt want to hear it from me at first. It took some time for her to cool down and let out her emotions and have the counsellor bounce it back to her and have my mind set changed to be more understanding.

In the mean time ... SF has become much MUCH better my wife approached me with the offer several times now (none of which i turned down of course) I have been feeling loved enough to give her the space she needs when she needs it and she has not turned on her pc to talk to any guys on MSN to bring the negative emotional feelings back and out love banks are climbing like mad now! I no longer feel needy! its such a relief! Our converstaions are very pleasant and things seem to be shifting back to what it felt like before i had children. WOW its a dream come true! The response from my wife after things starting clicking in her head helped show her where shes at fault .. and also the entire MB principles are a double edged sword for both ppl! Which was another turning point for her.. she assumed that becasue it was my idea .. i was trying ot use it against her when in fact by doing it togther (reading a chapter every few nights) that i really wasnt trying to do that at all!

All i can say is it seems for the first time ever ... we have a new understanding and new refound energy that we didnt previously have. And it feels like an absolute blessing! I feel WHOLE again! Being in a state of intimacy with my wife SF or non SF for both of us (in equal portions) has left us feeling in love again with O&H communication (initiated by MC at first) and now even RC. My wife really has had the blinders lifted from her eyes and my own blinders aswell! I have been blind the entire time!

Sorry for the long drawn out post ... but I feel like a new man!

*flexes*
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 04/14/10 08:06 PM
Congratulations, MNG...and welcome back. What a great update.

Woohoo...and what a huge discovery why your W was resistant to MB...that assumption nearly cost your marriage...seems to me you had to go through those four appts with MC so W could see you were looking out for her, too, with MB.

Thank you so much for sharing...

smile

LA
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 04/14/10 08:27 PM
Thanx LA .. earlier this week i tried to PM you .. but the PMs here dont work frown

YOur right .. that assumption did nearly cost us our M, I had previously assumed my wife was having an EA with the MSN guys or guy .. or whatever, but she really wasnt in her mind .. she just needed clairity and understanding (HNHN made that possible once she accepted to do it by cutting out MC by POJA). But most of the confusion came from our own lack of understanding of OURSELVES! Being so young and growing up together coming from different styles of broken families we realized we were numb to certain things that we otherwise shouldnt be had we have been raised in normal families that were not broken. Once the light bulb came on it took only about 2 weeks to really feel in love again. With our belief in jesus .. and a new found energy in our love forgivness came almost instantly between us after the realization of what we needed to do and we began to open up again and really converse with our hearts open. We havent quite got the 15hrs a week prolly about 10 or 9 hrs .. but .. its a DARN GOOD START!

My wife made a comment the other day. "How did we ever find time for the internet before because it seems like we dont have time for it anymore at all!" She said it in a good tone tho .. like a revelation of the source of our problems and now all she wants to do is hug me and love me and hang out with me ... small talk with me .. walk with me .. and have deep conversations after the kids are in bed! Oh and read HNHN too :P we still gotta finish that tho. my wife even said she may just make an acct here to help others when shes bored becasue its all very clear now in her mind and it all makes sense! what really got her going tho to grasp it all about he love bank was when her mother came to visit us .. and my wifes dad was over (they are seperated and divorced btw) that she said she still felt love for him for some reason. Thats when the love bank theory clicked for my wife .. shes like no wonder she loves him still ... her love acct for him was not empty and they had divorced for the wrong reasons! (no infidelity just incompatibility with out a drive to make it work regardless of feelings)

If only more ppl could just let go ... hand it all to god ... and forgive each other regardless of wrongs and move forward whole heartedly with the concepts here ... ppl would have alot less troubles with their marriages i think .. but its never that simple. *shrugs*

I feel like i can take on the world now!
Posted By: lildoggie Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 04/14/10 09:17 PM
Originally Posted by MrNiceGuy
Thanx LA .. earlier this week i tried to PM you .. but the PMs here dont work frown

The PM feature on MB has never been enabled. The site is a mixed site with VERY emotionally troubled, VERY vulnerable members. Off board communication is very dangerous & HIGHLY discouraged. Many members have spouses that have become involved with OP's due to various types of internet communication,,,chat rooms, IM's, PM's....etc. MB does not wish to contribute to that possibility and choose to have all communication between members ON the open forums.
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 04/14/10 09:52 PM
Thank you, Lil...and it's great that they don't work, MNG, because then you'd have to post...

and many others you'll never know would be helped.

smile

I can relate to not knowing how to treat each other better pre-MB, because we were numb, too, doing what our families did growing up.

For me, MB raised the bar...be sure to do that in your marriage (as you're already doing)...and keep it raised...because you can treat each other better and better, keeping you both in love and proud of yourselves.

LA
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 11/23/10 12:20 AM
Just a quick Update ... I cant THANK you guys enough .. I know i dont post much and my posts are far and few between .. but this site, now that my wife is on board with it, is a tool that EVERY marriage should have and follow .. infact i think HNHN should be a prerequisite to read before you marry your partner. This "program" has UNDOUBTEDLY saved my marriage from disaster. MANY times I had been tempted to get my SF fulfilled outside marriage but did not ... i struggled on and on for YEARS. THANKFULLY i did not have to endure infedelity but it was DEF on that course.

Recently my wife and I got HNHN for parents and it has helped us manage our time better with our kids and our selves. For hte longest time it was really hard to see just how important the marriage is. You figure .. "hey im married its all up hill from here full of sacrifices and giving up your needs etc" when the reality is you have to focus on eachother even more! We have learned also how many of the friendships in our marriage were really toxic to us .. of course we didnt see it for alot of years .. but as the "fog lifts" it has really become clear who is a friend of our marriage and who is not. THAT has opened another can of worms but .. my wife and I are stronger than ever now and are able to see these things with new light. Recently my wife and I are making love more often (initiated by her mostly now woots!) My wife no longer spends hours talking to guys she meets online and we are BEST friends again! She gets her emotional need for conversation met by me very often! Its amazing the things we can talk about when we are in a state of intimacy! I feel as thought hundred of pounds have lifted off my shoulders ... I feel like between my wife and I we can take on the world! The only downfall right now is findoug out who is toxic to our marriage and its been hurting my wife ... and well .. she needs to talk about it constantly to me now. We have lost many friends recently due to MB but gained a stronger marriage. The one main reason is that my wifes best friend was using us and just being nice to her during our times of struggling to get to me! I kinda seen it but paid not attention .. but the temptation got stronger and stronger as our marriage problems unfolded as we headed to marriage counselling in my previous posts. My wifes BF had the nerve to say to me .. "well since your not getting along with your wife very well you can always come visit me and spend the night here! ... BING RED FLAG! She has hit on me plenty but i always htought it was just for fun ... little did i know i was meeting her need for family support (playing with her kid and mine when she spent the weekends with us) My wife and her had it out after my wifes Best friend started texting me the details of her sexual activity with her new current BF and the difficulty she was having with him .. i tried over and over to get her to tell my wife those things and showed her the messages she kept sending me (radical honesty) .. but she never talked at all to my wife about them infact avoided conversations like that all together... my wife got very displeased with that and after 14 years of friendship .. with her BF .. its pretty much over now. Shes very sad that it had come to this but is glad for a stronger marriage. My children are FAR more emotionaly stable now that my wife and i no longer fight daily ... or every other day. And my wife no longer verbally abuses me when something happens that she doesnt like. One example of this is just recently my Stock portfolio dropped 75% .. didnt even phase her! She mentioned i made a mistake buying that particular stock .. but left it at that. I was shocked! NO swearing ... no cold shoulder ... i even got SF that night! ... WOW ... I love my wife! And She DEF loves me! I can feel it again ..I no longer dread going home after work .. my wife calls me during hte day to just say i love you (has never done that efore in our 16 years together) My marriage and relationship is the best its ever been ... even better than when i was dating. i just cant NOT believe how effective this MB is once it is implimented by both partners.


I dont know if you guys got any advice for me to give my wife in regards to her best friend situation .. or if we should even try and do anyhting at all??

Thanks again for all your guys help and for DR Harley discovering how to restore love and not just fix marriage problems.

MnG

p.s. Sorry if i rambled ... i get that way sometimes.
Posted By: tccoastguard Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 11/23/10 01:29 PM
Very cool to read MrNiceGuy, congratulations!
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 09/01/11 10:33 PM
OK Its been a LONG while since i posted to my thread. And really this update is not about me.

Yesterday my wife had a drama bomb blow up in our faces. It began when my DD13 began to act a bit weird and was grouchy for no apparent reason. So my wife and I snooped on our daughters email to see that grandma had been confiding in our daughter that she was leaving grampa (her 2nd marriage) because all grandpa does is nag at her and she cant take it anymore. AFter this discovery we approached DD13 and asked if there was anythign on her mind (trying to get her to tell us without admitting to snooping) and she spilled the beans as soon as we asked. She was carrying this burden an had promised not to tell anyone.

Right after we got her story about grandma she let us go look at her emails and then the phone rang. It was grandma. I answered the phone and she then told me herself she was leaving her husband after 20 years because she is just not happy. Well my wife soon took the phone as I began to get uncomfortable with the conversation (being intimate and all) and asked her some questions... after much prodding she admitted that there was an affair but that she had told her pastor and he said to end it and she did (apparently) but is still very unhappy. She didnt admit or deny if it was sexual or not .. but that part doesnt matter. My wife then asked a few more questions and all she got was "what if i dont want to save my marriage" over and over. She then told us her pastor (whom she confides in aswell) that he reccommended to seperate for a week to cool off ... what a crock!!!! Fire that pastor! That does nothing but validate her feelings that being away from him makes her feel better .. so she wants to not ever go back!

We stewed and speculated on the little bit of info we had and began to wrap my head around the idea that my inlaws (who claim to be so holy .. and always nag us about some of our life choices about not attending church etc) needed some help. AFter much thought we descided to phone grandpa... at first he denied it .. said he was lost and didnt understand what was going on ... then said a few weeks prior that grama said it was over .. but he didnt really believe it .. then he finally admitted to suspecting something and we told him that she admitted to us that she had some form of an affair and this was the reason things were unfolding as they were.

We explained marriage builders to them according to what they needed to hear individually to bring them on board ... but grandma is in the fog .. and grandpa wants to just forgive and sweep it under the rug and have grandma return home. We have no SOLID evidence that she has had this affair other than her confession to my wife... and she is coming over this weekend to talk to us in person about it.

I need help forming a plan on how to bring them back together and onboard with marriagebuilders. Any suggestions? I am torn right now .. and feel convicted to help them through this .. i just need a bit of guidance.

MNG

edit for grammar ..
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 09/02/11 04:30 AM
Originally Posted by MrNiceGuy
I need help forming a plan on how to bring them back together and onboard with marriagebuilders. Any suggestions? I am torn right now .. and feel convicted to help them through this .. i just need a bit of guidance.

MNG, I would send grandpa to the SAA board and have him make a thread. We can guide him out of this if he will be a little more proactive. Don't send grandma here. I would strongly suggest that you ALL, you, your wife and your DD express to GMA how disappointed and SHAMED you are about her affair. She needs to hear this from you. Let her know that if she leaves GPA over her sleazy affair that you will not welcome her in your home and she won't be allowed around DD. You need to take a firm stance to wake her up. She is existing in a fogged out fantasy and needs a reality check. You can be a great help by expressing your disappointment.

I would get the book Surviving an Affair for them.

Who is the scumbag OM? Is he married? Find out who he is and say to her that this weasel has no future in your family because he will be eternally hated for breaking up her marriage. Tell her he can never darken your doorstep.
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 09/02/11 04:53 PM
Thanks for your reply ML! I was not sure where to post this. Sorry it took so long to reply havent had much time to post as things have been very dramatic lately as everyone seems to be coming to my wife and I now for marital advice and support since they all thought MB was a crutch and now need advice. p.s. My wife and I are the youngest and almost the longest married in our family. ALl this has actually caused me to relive my own parents break up and cracked it open like it happened yesterday and that was over 20 years ago. I sent my own mother a letter finally telling her how I feel about how that all went down and shamed her irresposible behaviour and my dads too. Affairs seem to be the norm these days and anyone not having one is weird. BLAH!!!!!!

Originally Posted by MelodyLane
MNG, I would send grandpa to the SAA board and have him make a thread.

This is a problem. Grandma has the only computer they own in her possesion, a laptop. She took it with her when she left. Grandpa doesn't even know how to turn a PC on he has never really used one before.

Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Don't send grandma here.

Unfortunately, Grandma already knows of this place. Both of them know all the details of my thread pretty much in a nutshell and watched my wife and i go through all those hard times. My wife recently sent her a link to the emotional needs questionaires(we have reccommended them visit in the past to wrap their heads around why we are the way we are now) and just the other day she sent my wife a message back having a revelation about why she has felt the way she has for so long and sees now exactly how her hubby has missed the mark and notices her needs are exact opposite of her needs after actually doing the ENQ. So she may be here reading already which had me thinking not to start a thread that had anything to do with affairs and revealing someone elses. If she seen it .. she would recognize the story right away.

Originally Posted by MelodyLane
I would strongly suggest that you ALL, you, your wife and your DD express to GMA how disappointed and SHAMED you are about her affair. She needs to hear this from you.

Grandma told my wife (whom she has a horrible relationship with) that this man had been a secret admirer for a bit sending flowers and then revealed himself and sent her gifts and then it carried on a bit from there. She then promptly stated that "pastor told her to end it and she did". Her exact quote. She stopped with the details after that. We explained to her that we could help her and grandpa with a plan to recover this and all she says is "what if i dont want to save my marriage.". Fog babble .. i know ... My wife and I figure there HAS to be more to this than she is admitting because she admitted to some form of an affair to my wife and they never talk. Red Flag Alert! She claims the affair is over but has not admitted if she has had sex with him or not.. just the gifts and flowers.

Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Let her know that if she leaves GPA over her sleazy affair that you will not welcome her in your home and she won't be allowed around DD. You need to take a firm stance to wake her up. She is existing in a fogged out fantasy and needs a reality check. You can be a great help by expressing your disappointment.

Yeah this is a hard one to chew on .. I feel like my wife and I have to do this fight for them since Grandpa seems too weak to be proactive at the moment. He wants us to welcome her into our home on Sunday and not say ANYTHING to make her mad. She will Run like the wind! She comes down to visit us on Sunday and We plan to have a conversation with her and help grandpa get the goods on the details of this affair since they are currently seperated and will not see each other becasue the pastor says to stay apart. We will be voice recording the conversation and are planning a wack of questions to ask. Basicly do a Plan A on her and a form of intervention with MB material. We will also tell her we are PRO marriage so she is either on Team Marriage .. or Team Affair and that may be a huge turning point in how the conversation moves forward or she blows up and leaves.

Originally Posted by MelodyLane
I would get the book Surviving an Affair for them.

Ordered it last night .. its on its way to their home. Grandpa agreed to read it and is willing to listen to us to some degree. He just wants to forgive and forget and have his wife back. WE exclaimed you cant forget and forgiveness will come in time with just compensation.


Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Who is the scumbag OM? Is he married? Find out who he is and say to her that this weasel has no future in your family because he will be eternally hated for breaking up her marriage. Tell her he can never darken your doorstep.

No one knows who this guy is.. Grandpa only had a feeling something was wrong after grandma recieved flowers form another man and would not let him see the card. (this happened on their anniversary and later that night she said their marriage was over) OUCH! It could be someone from Church (grandma is highly involved and respected at her church and spends more time there than with her hubby) OR it could be a co worker becasue their home is out in the boonies and its a 1hr commute to town to get to her job and she often works on call becasue she is a nurse.(good excuse to leave though when home life sux! another red flag) One of the things I need to mention is that Grandpa is unemployed as the small town they are in has no work and grandmas job more than covers their bills. GRandma also claimed in her last message to us after teh ENQ that one of her top 5 needs are FS. Thats a red Flag to me that its a co-worker who has a job. And hence the contrast effect seed was planted. Who knows how long it went on for or if it is still going on .. or if it was sexual. But rest assured if it was recent .. she will be going through withdrawl .. and we explained that to grandpa and told him to go see his doctor and get some antidepressants. He said he doesnt need drugs... but yet is SUPER depressed. So to help them we are going to Plan A Grandma and persuade her to give us some details so we can help grandpa with what to do next.

Edited to add minor detail.





Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 09/02/11 05:35 PM
MNG, the most important thing is for him to find out WHO the OM is so he can bust up the affair. The affair is not over ad this guy is probably married. Put aside the questionnaires for now and focus him on killing the affair. A separation only serves to enable the affair, so I would advise them to get back together now.
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 09/02/11 05:47 PM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
MNG, the most important thing is for him to find out WHO the OM is so he can bust up the affair. The affair is not over ad this guy is probably married. Put aside the questionnaires for now and focus him on killing the affair. A separation only serves to enable the affair, so I would advise them to get back together now.

Oh, I DEF agree with you. We said that right away but Grandma will not go home because her pastor said not to. Obviously he knows nothing about affairs ... or has a construed view on it .. OR possibly even the affair partner himself! Pastors wife died a year ago ... and grandma is confiding in him all her personal troubles within her marriage? and he tells her to stay away for a week or so? RED FLAG! My wife actually asked her out right and she said NO DEF not! RED FLAG!

The affair has to be killed .. which is why we are going to help him get the goods hopefully on sunday. But man this is hard and its not even an affair in my own marriage!

It feels weird being so involved .. they want us to help .. but almost want us to do all the foot work for them since we know so much. I almost wish I hadnt got involved but when my DD13 got involved I had too, so i could lift this burden and help her understand whats going on and now we seem to be the sounding board for everyone due to the strentgh of our marriage (13 years married and together for 17)

Grandpa is partially to blame for the condition of their marriage for sure (we explained that to him and he said " I didnt know i was hurting her so badly she never told me!".. we seem him badger grandma all the time verbally and she responds in the same manner. They always brushed it off an jokes but once in a while grandma would flip her top about it and since her #1 need is admiration .. its been killing her love for him for years! He finally sees it ..
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 09/02/11 06:48 PM
Will he hire a PI? HE is going to have to get aggressive if he wants to save his marriage. There is something very funny about this pastor. crazy
Posted By: princessmeggy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 09/02/11 06:55 PM
I agree! skeptical
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 09/02/11 06:58 PM
Thats a great question ML ... I will ask him when i get a chance.

ML. I really appreciate you as a sounding board in this. I am also going to advise him get a VAR and put it in Grandmas car after she gets home from being here on Sunday. yes just learned she is going home after she leaves here on monday sometime.

Yeah there is something funny about this pastor... its striking up more red flags than anything right now.

p.s. I hope grandma is on Team Marriage.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 09/02/11 09:18 PM
MNG, a better way to bust her if he can't swing a PI is to sneak eblaster on her cell phone. It will send and record all her texts, phone calls and it has a GPS on it that sends her location. That runs about $65. I realize he doesn't have a computer but he might get one or access his email account on a library computer.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 09/02/11 09:20 PM
P.s. Grandma is NOT on team marriage. She is on team wayward.
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 09/06/11 10:36 PM
Well .. update.

GRandma came over feeling very entitled, claiming that she wants for SURE for her marriage to be over and how grandpa was just not the man for her anymore and how he doenst seem to get it or how she feels. She has a history of always running when facing conflict but this time she said she would listen to what we had to say. She told us it was not sexual yet .. shes sure thinking about it so because her reaction was not what she normally does we accepted her answer for now about it not being sexual yet so we could get more info out of her.

AFter we got my children to bed and let grandma have some time with them I got to work on how to approach her with MB. We told grandma how we felt about her affair (sexual or not) She admitted it was close to moving to sexual but she was feeling convicted by god to not move any further yet with either her hubby or her AP. Her Pastor now recommended an even longer seperation. (red flag) SHe wants to gather all her INFO from everyone and how they feel about it before making a final decision apparently, but was still insistant that grandpa will not change to be the man she wants.

We asked her how she would feel if grandpa could be the man she wants? And then read out some MB material for her and let her listen and ask questions. She became quite receptive to the information and agreed with us that it could work but was not convinced that her hubby was willing to change his old habits (DJ i know) and that she was scared to go back becasue of this fear and that he would not make any perminant changes to his bad LB habits. We told her that was a disrespectful judgement and that she can not change her hubby .. he has to want to change and that we would give him and guide him with the tools to make those changes for her. SHe seemed to light up wth a bit of hope.

After about 3 hours or so of reading and discussing some appropriate material that would resonate with her .. she went to bed and I gave her HNHN. By morning she had read almost all of it and seemed to have a new outlook and wanted more info. We told her that we sent surviving an affair to grandpa and she said great and hopes that he will maybe make some changes. Well .. after a bit of discussion again that day god put it in me to get a copy of FIREPROOF and watch it with her, i figured afterall .. she is christian and maybe needed a message that included a godly perspective on this and after she watched it .. she BALLED.. cried ... and said that she had to go home and that she was no longer feeling entitled .. but now she was confused about what she wanted to do. We told her to NOT make ANY RASH decisions for 6 months so they could spend some time discovering EMotional needs and working through the material either togehter or seperate so they oculd both eventually be receptive to eachothers changes. I think it really hit home for her. She took that book HNHN with her and said she will give it to grandpa as soon as she finishes reading it. She cried some more ... hugged us all ... and thanked us for making things alot more clearer for her even though she was confused now. Her final statement after all our "marriage therapy" was that she was confused and it now depends on grandpa.

We hope grandpa will step up and follow surviving an affair and we plan on sending him a copy now of lovebusters and recommending him to read it and DO it. He does alot of talking and not enough doing. Even though grandma doesnt admit to a PA we remind grandpa that a EA is just as damaging as a PA and to treat them the same and that the book SAA will guide him with the steps to take and lovebusters will help him identify how he mistreated his wife. He says now he is willing to do anything becasue all his other advice he has been given has failed up to this point and we are giving him hope with MB approach.

What a stressful weekend...... but we did as god beconed and gave the message he wanted us to deliever. Its not up to US to fight for them ... they need to learn to do it on their own but grandma knows where we stand and we told her what we though exactly and she didnt runaway like she normally does .. so thats a good sign.

MNG
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 09/06/11 11:34 PM
Originally Posted by MrNiceGuy
What a stressful weekend...... but we did as god beconed and gave the message he wanted us to deliever. Its not up to US to fight for them ... they need to learn to do it on their own but grandma knows where we stand and we told her what we though exactly and she didnt runaway like she normally does .. so thats a good sign.

MNG

You made good progress! But I would not stop there. The affair needs to be killed, MNG. I would call the pastor and tell him about the affair. I don't believe he really knows and think she is lying. Another very important thing you can do is call up the OM yourself and tell him there is no future in his affair. Tell him he will be eternally hated by all of you and will never be welcomed into your family. It is real important to expose this affair and put pressure on the OM.

I am cringing that she has HNHN in her hands and am concerned that she will come away blaming gpa for her affair. If that happens, it would be helpful to remind her that her affair was caused by her poor boundaries around men. If that is not addressed she won't take responsibility for her behavior.

But more importantly, run this scumbag off, NMG. Since her affair affects your family you are fully within your rights to run this loser off.
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 09/07/11 09:01 PM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by MrNiceGuy
What a stressful weekend...... but we did as god beconed and gave the message he wanted us to deliever. Its not up to US to fight for them ... they need to learn to do it on their own but grandma knows where we stand and we told her what we though exactly and she didnt runaway like she normally does .. so thats a good sign.

MNG



You made good progress! But I would not stop there. The affair needs to be killed, MNG. I would call the pastor and tell him about the affair. I don't believe he really knows and think she is lying. Another very important thing you can do is call up the OM yourself and tell him there is no future in his affair. Tell him he will be eternally hated by all of you and will never be welcomed into your family. It is real important to expose this affair and put pressure on the OM.

I am cringing that she has HNHN in her hands and am concerned that she will come away blaming gpa for her affair. If that happens, it would be helpful to remind her that her affair was caused by her poor boundaries around men. If that is not addressed she won't take responsibility for her behavior.

But more importantly, run this scumbag off, NMG. Since her affair affects your family you are fully within your rights to run this loser off.

Thanks ... I am doing all I can. UNfortunately they live a 6hour+ drive from me so most of our conversations are via phone.

The other man has not been discovered yet as to whom he is. I would gladly call this other man and tell him to GTFO! However .. that is not possible since we have no information in regards to whom he is.

We have a new issue now though... Grandpa is moved out of his marital home and he did a partial plan doormat... and grandma has changed the locks on him to prevent him from getting in after grandpa made a scene at church the other day (they are both still going to the same church). WE had advised him not to be a doormat and to stay in his home .. but he took his pastors advice to avoid making his wife angry and moved out at her request under the advisory of the pastor. He finally admitted that everything that we said she was going to do she has done .. and the pastors advice has been nothing but trouble for him. He is now doing everything we say .. however .. he is no longer in a positiion to PLan A her .. even though he now knows her top needs.

Since he is in a form of plan B .. we advised him now to get lots of sleep .. and get some excercise and to not engage in his wife at church anymore unless he can remain calm. We also said for him not make conversation unpleasant or be emotional and possibly get some anti_depressants and that he will have to demonstrate to her how appealing he can be and try to convince her to let him come back home. WE told him the affair may need to die a natural death unless he can somehow snoop and find out who this guy is .. but with out access to the home snooping seems almost impossible at this point. He may NEED a PI now... And I will tell him that next time we talk.

I have a funny suspicion this OM is at work ... and grandma admitted to us that he is married and having a hard time with his wife as well. What else should I tell grandpa to do?

p.s. GRandma also says she is not past the point of no return with this man .. apparently and has not had sex with him yet but she feels very strongly about him and can not stop thinking about him.

edit = P.S.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 09/07/11 11:40 PM
Originally Posted by MrNiceGuy
[ however .. he is no longer in a positiion to PLan A her .. even though he now knows her top needs.

MNG, if he wants to save his marriage, he needs to do Plan A and stop being a wuss. That means he GOES HOME right now and stays there. She can't legally bar him without a court order. If he is locked out, he just has to call the police to let him in. Secondly, he needs to expose this wide and far once he gets the goods.

He needs to find out who the OM is NOW. Even if has to hire a PI, he needs to do that. He can probably find out in one day who the OM is. Tell him to find out and then start exposing the affair.

Many courts seriously frown on abandonment and he has abandoned his wife and his home. He needs to get his [censored] home and stop being silly.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 09/07/11 11:43 PM
This marriage is very salvagable if your gpa does what I said above. This affair is doomed and I assure you the OM will dump your gma as soon as his wife finds out.

It is very, very rare that a married man ever leaves his wife for a cheater and a cheap piece of fun.

Expose the affair and I wager the OM will dump gma like yesterdays garbage.
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 09/08/11 06:53 PM
THanks ML. Last night I sent a FB message to their pastor. I revealed to him that I know of this affair and told him that even tho she claims its over ... its not. I told him I have the entire 3 hours of the conversation voice recorded.

GRandma is head of the worship team, and she is going to be FURIOUS at me for telling the pastor whats really going on as best as i was told since she lied to her pastor at the meeting they had about it. SHe will most likely lose her position until she recovers her marriage (rightfully so). I have asked the pastor to recommend they move back in together to work on this with the marriage builders material and that if she refuses to disclose who this other man is .. that is the sign she is protecting this OM from the consequences of their immoral actions. In fact .. grandma could be reading this right now ... I dont know. Its all scary kinda.. I hate being the bearer of bad news .. and doing all this foot work for them that may cause us to lose our relationship with GMA .. but it has to be done. The pastor is going away til next week but says he will get back to me when he gets back and is going to check out MB himself to gain my perspective.

This is a draining experience for me ... and I am not the one having an affair .. or the BS. My mind turns all night long on how to reply and how to process this .. and react to this as people come to me for advice on this ... I am feeling heavily burdened by this experience and not sleeping very well.

*sigh*

MNG
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 09/08/11 08:09 PM
Originally Posted by MrNiceGuy
The pastor is going away til next week but says he will get back to me when he gets back and is going to check out MB himself to gain my perspective.

MNG, another book he might read to "gain some perspective" would be the Bible. I wonder if he is familiar with that book? In that book, there are very specific steps to be taken when a member is engaged in sin. Additionally, Ephesians 5:11 tells us to expose sin and have nothing to do with the works of darkness.

Have you had a chance to speak to Gpa and give him my suggestions? He is going to have to man up here and start fighting for his marriage if he wants to save it. And the first step is for him to go home.
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 09/08/11 08:35 PM
Yeah .. he is well versed in the bible. The pastor admits he needs or may need marriage builders as a tool for his church and wants to gain my perspective. He is struggling with how to deal with this too as he has just learned that I am coaching them with marriage builders material and also that GMA and GPA are not the only struggling marriage in his church who are looking to him for guidance.

Ephesians also has a great one about truth in

Ephesians 4:15:
But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, into Christ

Do you know of anymore verses like these or these specific steps you talk about?? Where can I find it? I would like to read what god says about how to deal with a fellow brother or sister who is engaging in sin like this.

I have not had a chance to discuss your recent suggestions to GPA. He has been working his new job and hasn't been available to talk much since he left his marital home other than the one time I spoke to him. I will try and call him tonight and give him some additional advice as per your suggestion. He claimed he was willing to do whatever we say as long as he feels it will not drive GMA away further. So I hope he grows a pair and stands up for himself and his marriage .. however hes an emotional wreck right now .. last I spoke to him I told him to make himself more appealing and stop whining when he sees her at church and that it did no justice and only served to make GMA respect him less. He agreed.. I then said to get some rest and excercise to hlp eleviate some of the stress he is going through and that some books are on the way to help him cope and understand whats going on. He cried while talking to my wife. . and then when i spoke to him .. he stopped crying about it and listened to me for those few mins.

I am hoping that by me telling the pastor to have them get back together that they will listen to his suggestion (if he gets to them in time before he leaves) since he first told them to seperate for a short period of time to reflect on what was going on. I think that GMA has the pastor gaslighted as to whats really going on so I am trying to bring him into the light and awaiting a second reply from him to hear what he has to say since he has ALOT of influence over GPA and GMA.

This is hard work ... thank god its not my marriage. THank God For marriage builders ... and thank god for your support and advice. I think I would have been lost without this place.

MNG
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 09/08/11 08:46 PM
Originally Posted by MrNiceGuy
I am hoping that by me telling the pastor to have them get back together that they will listen to his suggestion (if he gets to them in time before he leaves) since he first told them to seperate for a short period of time to reflect on what was going on. I think that GMA has the pastor gaslighted as to whats really going on so I am trying to bring him into the light and awaiting a second reply from him to hear what he has to say since he has ALOT of influence over GPA and GMA.

MNG, I think it is good you are speaking to the pastor, but I also think it is very important that you leave him out of the loop and go to your grandpa. And here is why. This pastor has no idea what he is doing and has already caused so much damage that I don't think you should count on him for help. Cut him out of the loop instead of trying to educate him and go straight to Grandpa. Tell him that they save marriages every day on Marriage Builders and this is how it is done.

This pastor is giving them very bad advice and I would persuade your Gpa on that point. Tell your Gpa that he only facilitates the affair and increases his chance of divorce by moving out.

I worry about using the pastor because if you can't sell him, then he will sell AGAINST MB to Gpa and then their marriage will be further harmed for absolutely no good reason. Please focus on persuading your grandfather. Maybe even get him to send an email to Dr Harley at the radio and speak to Dr Harley. Dr Harley is a Christian with 40 years experience saving marriages, whereas the pastor has no idea what he is doing.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 09/08/11 08:51 PM
Originally Posted by MrNiceGuy
. He claimed he was willing to do whatever we say as long as he feels it will not drive GMA away further.

He needs to view his wife as a falling down drunk who is lost. She is high on the addiction of an affair. So by moving out, he is enabling her affair. By leaving he drives her further away by facilitating her affair. She won't like him coming home because it interferes with her affair, but that is ok. TELL HIM THE GOAL HERE IS TO SAVE HIS MARRIAGE, NOT TO AVOID MAKING HER ANGRY AT ALL COSTS. <-------emphasize this point

You really have to coach a man to push them to endure her anger, because men are afraid. So assure him that her anger is ok. If she were a drunk driver wouldn't he take her car keys away even if made her angry? Frame it like to him.

And tell him that his wife needs him now more than ever, so he needs to go home. Now is the worst time in the world to abandon her. Many courts view his leaving as abandonment and FROWN on that. Saying some "pastor" told him to do that is no excuse. What he did was wrong.

He needs to just go home without notice and move right back into his own bedroom.
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 09/15/11 07:54 PM
Well .. I have an update for myself. I finally told my wife I have an account here and let her read my posts. I had kept it from her because I was afraid of her reaction to me posting here. I figured since this situation that is unfolding in our lives that all truths must come out. It was eating me alive not telling her about me posting here. I feel MUCH better now because I told my wife I was getting support here for Grandma and Grandpas situation. My wife told me she needed some just compensation and asked for a sushi dinner and to not dirty the kitchen that night due to my omission of being here. I gladly complied! She made an account aswell and you will probably hear from her soon. Her username is MrsNiceGuy.

THis was the last thing i needed to get off my chest in regards to openness and honesty .. since one of my wifes top needs is such .. and she out right asked me if i was a member here.. i couldnt lie and told her.

Her reaction was FAR better than i expected .. but we are in a much better place now.

Thank GOD for MB!
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 09/16/11 02:51 AM
MNG, that is great that you invited your wife here! I did notice her name the other night and saw her reading.. Welcome Mrs MNG! smile
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 09/16/11 03:10 AM
Quote
It was eating me alive not telling her about me posting here.
It takes a toll to hide stuff from the important people in your life - so glad to hear that your wife is here! Hi, Mrs. Nice Guy!
Posted By: markos Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 09/16/11 02:04 PM
Hi, Mrs. Nice Guy! Glad you are here!
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 09/22/11 11:40 PM
Well ... I am emotioanly spent on the grandma and grandpa issue .. GRandpa insists that he not make his wife angry and so choses NOT to go home. He figures she just needs more time. Both my wife and I have spent hours listening to him vent and giving him advice that he pretty much refuses to do becasue he seems deathly afraid to anger her.

My wife tore a STRIP out of him telling him that as long as he continues to NOT go home he is enabling the affair and how we are trying to cope with it here. We feel we are wasting our time now.

The pastor is NOT helping any .. at all ... i regret even speaking to him. Turns out the pastor is taking a symbatical (spelling?) from the church in the not too distant future. I fear also that we didnt make a proper stand agasint grandmas affair while she was here .. and only made things worse by giving her HNHN. I sent SAA to grandpa 2 weeks ago and he has not recieved it. I think grandma got it and kept it from him.

I am SOOOO done! With my marriage builders as my filter, all i see around me is ugliness! I see how ugly my mother is and her infidelity .. and my dads, my grandparents on my dads side ..on my moms side .. .. and almost everyone I know is or was a perpatrator of an affair of some sort. Its like a plague! my own marriage was close to heading down the same path but god kept us together and kept our moral compass in check (somewhat) and had us telling ourselves .. to hang on I am bulding character here ... give it some time (for our marriage that is).

Now that i can see and understand fog in a new way, i smell BS everywhere i go! I look back at my childhood and now i have new understanding of my parents.. makes me want to slap everyone i know! These past few weeks has been very depressing ... emotionally .. which in turn is affecting my UA time with my wife ... and how I have been interacting with my children. I just can not get my head unwrapped from all this crap! On one note .. i feel called by god to give this message (and I have) .. and pulled towards helping but my taker is saying ... no no no!

Sorry .. im rambling ... my head is spinning trying to understand why grandpa will not do what he needs to do .. we even asked him "with all the advice your getting .. whos has rang true?" he says you guys.. then we say .. then why will you not listen to us now that we tell you to GO THE HECK HOME!

Of course with this opening up my own scabs of an affair that my mother and dad had that resulted in a divorce and the break down of my own childhood ... I have been reaming them out too .. im disgusted! I want to disown them but i love them all at the same time.

GAH! rambling again ... sorry .. just needed to vent some random info flowing through my head right now.
Posted By: markos Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 09/23/11 05:09 PM
Originally Posted by MrNiceGuy
I am SOOOO done! With my marriage builders as my filter, all i see around me is ugliness! I see how ugly my mother is and her infidelity .. and my dads, my grandparents on my dads side ..on my moms side .. .. and almost everyone I know is or was a perpatrator of an affair of some sort. Its like a plague!

You know, this sounds like the way Dr. Harley talks about his family history. At the seminar last year, he told us that at one point, he and his brother were the only male members of his family that had not had an affair. And then his brother had an affair!

It is like a plague.

Hang in there, MrNiceGuy! Motivating people to make a good decision is not easy!

(And don't forget to go love on MrsNiceGuy and the NiceKids. It sounds like they could all use some loving attention from a calm MrNiceGuy! smile )
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 09/23/11 06:54 PM
Thanks Markos .. today is a MUCH better day. I felt much better after my random vent above. Went home .. chilled out ... turned off my phone and decided to lead my mind and my wifes towards some quality UA time last night. Today feels fresh.. and renewed. My wife is AMAZING! I pampered her last night .. and she returned the favor. Much needed for both of us as we have been neglecting out UA time .. hard to have pleasant convo when doom and gloom is all around us these days. But its Not my wife and I .. its everyone else. I just want to run away with my wife and kids and get away from it all .. but easier said than done.

Whats really disturbing me right now is how i used to just accept every ones BS and avoid the touchy topics .. but lately I have been speaking my mind about all this to every one which turns into discussions that are withdrawing love units from everyone i know, mostly because they dont agree with how I am being involved in grandma and grandpas scenerio. (i have exposed what I know to most everyone I know and am getting heat for doing it)

Since grandpa is clueless on what to do i feel like my wife and I are doing all the foot work for him. This has to stop because I can not save his marriage for him .. we have given him all the info he needs and he still doesnt listen. Most I exposed to (he didnt want me to but i did) tell me to "stay out of it and do not give ultimatums" and that its "none of my business" and to "stop burning bridges" everyone I mention this scenerio to seems to be getting defensive about my actions.

Possibly I feel so compelled to be involved and help grandpa is because of my own past .. wishing i could have saved my parents from what they did ... am I wasting my emotions here with my wifes mother and step dad? (yes this is my wifes mothers second marriage which after further investigation reveals they married after living together .. and he was in grandmas back pocket while her relationship she was in (that was after her first marriage) became rocky.

I have deep rooted scabs peeling off because of my involvement and its creating resentment in me towards my parents now too (they are long divorced and had several relationships since) even though years ago I claimed to be over it (without having true understanding) .. and I thought I was but, with my new perspective on affairs, the ugliness of my families past are causing me to withdraw from family members that have been around a long time. I almost want to disown every adulterer in my family (which is almost all my elders) now because of my strong convictions towards it. Is that wrong to feel that way even though it was a long time ago? Almost my entire family thinks marriage is just a piece of paper because of the turmoil they have experienced or perpetrated.

I am so disgusted and frusterated by my family and now my wifes family because of how polluted they are with wayward thinking as we view them all with a marriage builders filter. I am christian and I am supposed to forgive .. but this is all just so icky.. makes me want to bathe after hearing their fog talk and being around them all .. seems most of my family and my wifes are in a fog of sorts and become very unpleasant to be around just knowing their opinions.

Sorry ... more venting again ... I can not WAIT for hunting season (3 weeks!) ... blast me a few deer and fill my freezer to work off some steam. i have POJA'd this with my wife and she agrees i can go this year if i take DD13. (who wants to come any how) But in the next year or two my wife is willing to join in the hunt and make it a family event! Since we like camping alot .. all of us .. it would make it more interesting to have something official to do while we are camping, not to mention there is no fire bans during hunting season. I am excited for that day to come at some point. smile

Well .. I am off to have a great weekend with my wife and kids ... and not going to lend an ear to grandma and grandpa for a while so my batteries can charge back up. It is soo draining to listen to their fog talk. They have the tools ... and the advice they need. All they gotta do is work it. I can only lead a horse to water.

Again thanks for listening to my venting ..

MNG
Posted By: happyheart Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 09/23/11 09:27 PM
---Do you know of anymore verses like these or these specific steps you talk about?? Where can I find it? I would like to read what god says about how to deal with a fellow brother or sister who is engaging in sin like this.---

Colossians 3 really got to me recently in a bible study:

Colossians 3

Living as Those Made Alive in Christ
1 Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. 2 Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things. 3 For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ, who is your[a] life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.
5 Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. 6 Because of these, the wrath of God is coming.[b] 7 You used to walk in these ways, in the life you once lived. 8 But now you must also rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips. 9 Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices 10 and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator. 11 Here there is no Gentile or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.

12 Therefore, as Godļæ½s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. 13 Bear with each other and forgive one another if any of you has a grievance against someone. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. 14 And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.

15 Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, since as members of one body you were called to peace. And be thankful. 16 Let the message of Christ dwell among you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom through psalms, hymns, and songs from the Spirit, singing to God with gratitude in your hearts. 17 And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.

Instructions for Christian Households
18 Wives, submit yourselves to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord.
19 Husbands, love your wives and do not be harsh with them.
20 Children, obey your parents in everything, for this pleases the Lord.

21 Fathers,[c] do not embitter your children, or they will become discouraged.

22 Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to curry their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord. 23 Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for human masters, 24 since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward. It is the Lord Christ you are serving. 25 Anyone who does wrong will be repaid for their wrongs, and there is no favoritism.
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 09/23/11 09:43 PM
Thanks HappyHeart. I appreciate that!

Its funny you mention this verse .. i happened to stumble on it while commuting to and from work reading the bible on my blackberry. With this one I also prayed to cloth myself with the armor of god. Seems since I did that all I have been doing is spewing truth at everyone and I have been getting flack for it from every direction around me. Not many like the new me and my perspective anymore (other than my own household and a few friends who are on board with MB too since they have seen the drastic changes in my wife and i and have taken MB on themselves)
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 09/28/11 05:43 PM
Hi all .. Things are going horribly wrong in my home. My wife and daughter are fighting ... my daughter has been hiding communication on facebook with grandma from us (found out by keylogger). Whats bothering me about all this now is the fact that my wife and daughter are at each others throats right now and I am caught in the middle .. expected to be just as angry at DD13 as my wife is for my DD13's disrespect and angry outburst last night that I was not there to witness after my wife confronted her about this hidden communication that we found.

My wife put up some stricter rules for DD13 in regards to her facebook activity and computer access and I agreed with them calmly, but to my wife for some reason this is not good enough. What Am i doing wrong? I didn't feel the need to lash out so harshly as emotions have already been running high and love bank balances are very low due to neglect for ALL of us. I didn't want to make the holes any deeper for anyone in my home.

Back story ... since all this has taken place .. it has had a HUGE negative emotional impact on my entire household which has resulted in my wife and I to withdraw from each other and neglect each other for several weeks now which has withdrawn HUGE amounts of love units in a very short period of time probably to the point of almost hating each other now. I feel bad that my DD13 has such a HUGE love bank balance for grandma where my wife has not had a relationship with her mom (who is grandma in this situation) ever and has a very large negative balance towards her.

I am so worn down emotionally .. that I do not have it in me to come down hard on DD13, as my wife wants me to, which then sends my wife into a rant of DJ's towards me saying alot of awful things that really hurt, after which i could no longer keep my cool and I yelled back. (which i feel horrible for doing).

After my wifes talk with DD13 and DD13's emotional outburst, I had one with her too but with my wife there. I was empathetic about how DD13 is feeling and was not harsh on her for what she did, but should I have been? I do not even know where to begin to fix all this mess that has been created and its spiraling out of control to the point i think my wife hates me now too. I cant even look at my wife right now ... shes throwing daggers at me when I do. I feel this entire thing is all my fault.

So after our blow out last night ... I sent grandma a letter on Facebook about how disappointed we are and how she is being so selfish and that she is NOT to contact DD13 unless she contacts us first and until she gets her life straightened out. I also blocked her, removed her .. and blocked her from Emailing DD13.

Maybe I handled this all wrong and I need some 2x4's from an objective perspective. I do not know how to handle my wife OR daughter anymore with all this pressure and negativity around us. If you have any questions or suggestions .. plz ask. I need some guidance. I am at the end of my rope and hanging off the knot at the bottom. I feel like I am losing my family and my sanity at a very rapid rate almost to the point where I do not care anymore, which is sad because just a few weeks ago (before all this went down) I would have told you I had the best family ever. Sad how fast things can change.

Sorry for the rant ... and if you read it ... thank you for listening.

MNG

Edit to change a minor detail.
Posted By: markos Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 09/28/11 06:45 PM
MrNiceGuy, the way you and your wife handle your daughter should be decided with mutual enthusiasm. Neither one of you should be addressing her about it until you've both talked about it and come to a mutually enthusiastic decision.

Some things I've heard Dr. Harley say that may have bearing on your situation:
* In childrearing, parents first need to come to enthusiastic agreement about what the children's rules will be, and then they need to come to agreement about how the rules will be enforced.
* Parents should discuss these things privately, not in the presence of the child, and the contents of the discussions should be kept private. All the children should know is the final decision the two of you have made. They shouldn't know what you originally wanted or what your wife originally wanted.
* The unconditional love a father tends to have towards his daughter is just about the strongest love Dr. Harley has ever seen. It is so strong it often wrecks stepfamily situations, due to the father's inability to put his wife's feelings above his daughter's. If I understand correctly this is not a stepfamily situation, but I'm sure it's still a force to be reckoned with.
* Teenage daughters are trouble. Your daughter is rapidly coming to an age where she will make her own decisions, whether you like it or not, and you will not have much control over her. I'm serious, I swear I've heard Dr. Harley on the radio say that teenage daughters are big trouble. I wonder what Jennifer put him and Joyce through before she grew up and became Dr. Jennifer!
* Punishment is less and less effective as a child grows older. But withdrawal of privileges is not punishment. I think I've seen him write this or heard him say it; I may be mixing multiple sources, though.

Get and read His Needs, Her Needs for Parents if you don't have it. Reread it if you do. smile

I think you definitely need to speak up to your wife about her disrespectful judgments toward you, and suggest that the two of you follow FGSN to decide what you will and won't require of your daughter here, and what you will do to enforce it.
Posted By: markos Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 09/28/11 08:47 PM
Originally Posted by MrNiceGuy
Back story ... since all this has taken place .. it has had a HUGE negative emotional impact on my entire household which has resulted in my wife and I to withdraw from each other and neglect each other for several weeks now which has withdrawn HUGE amounts of love units in a very short period of time probably to the point of almost hating each other now.

MrNiceGuy, I urge you to treat this relationship breakdown as the most important problem. You guys can't afford to fight about this. How you resolve this conflict is more important than the conflict itself.
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 09/29/11 04:47 PM
Markos .. your absolutely right. During this break down, both my wife and I have succumbed to our stress and DJ'd and AO'd each other to a negative LB balance again. I did mention that during our "tiff" to my wife, however at the time it didn't seem relevant to her in her emotional state. I totally under stand too.. there is a reason but no excuse.

Anyhow.. my wife apologized yesterday after work for her Dj's and the emotions are not running high right now so I will take that as a positive and just remain calm during this storm and wait for the rainbow.

Since giving Grandma that no contact with DD13 note after going behind our backs to disrespect us via Facebook .. she has now approached my step sister, whom DD13 visits often, and asked her to allow them to have contact on when DD13 is over there! Fortunately my step sister told us right away because she has already been exposed to, as we have pretty much told everyone who knows grandma and DD13 says shes tired of the drama and is kinda glad i blocked grandma from her facebook and blocked her from sending emails to DD13 too. The pressure is on grandma now and she seems to be scrambling to round up an army of some kind which I hope includes grandpa at some point. smile Grandma is FURIOUS at us which is taking the heat off grandpa.

So all in all .. things are looking up and I have cut off grandma and gone into a kind of plan B with her since she is not improving or making any efforts to reconcille.

THanks for listening!

MNG

Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 09/30/11 07:19 PM
Well .. new development with Grandma and grandpa. Grandpa called the police to see what his rights are and to inquire about going home (since he can not get in) and discovered that grandma has already filed a police report against grandpa and told him if he was to go home they would have to arrest him.

Also we believe we may have discovered who this OM is (grandpa noticed grandma spending alot of time with one of the worship team members.. and this OM is seperated from his wife (just recently) becasue she does not trust him. My wife added this lady (apparently OM's wife) and is going to attempt to converse with her about this and reveal an email that this OM had sent grandma that grandma posted on her facebook wall for us and all her face book friends to see .. since we exposed her on her wall.

This email contains many of the verbatim that grandma has repeated to us and to grandpa, which has set off grandpas gut feeling that this is indeed the OM. No solid proof .. other than everyone is now questioning her time with this man (music practice .. lunches every day etc) and that the OM is now seperated from his wife.

Grandpa is feeling alot better about himself currently as he finally got a computer and is learning to use it. He set himself up an email and we have been sending him everything that grandma posts on her wall .. via email to grandpa along with all relevant MB material that he needs to read.

The Email also contains information that validates how grandma is feeling and also slandering my wife and I saying that her grandpa .. and my wife and I are all doing the "devils work" for he thinks we are using my DD13 against grandma when in fact we are just eliminating and protecting our DD13 from all this stress becasue grandma continues to try and contact her behind our backs. Also that grandma is being accused of things she has not done (according to this OMs email letter to grandma).

SHould I post the letter he wrote here? Is it necessary? After reading it it sure seems like he is the OM.

The pressure is on ... and grandma is scrambling now like crazy and FURIOUS at my wife and I for our exposure. A wack of her facebook friends dropped off her list the last few days too. She is going to HATE us ...lol .. I also have been posting marriagebuilder links on grandmas wall too pertaining to information about "how to survive infedelity" so all her church friends may read and understand.

Thanks for listening.

p.s. my Wife and I had a good talk .. we realized that this stress has really set us back on our UA time .. so we went out and had a great night last night with our children ... my DD13 (who is cut off of pc for now) feels much better and thanks us and appologized to us for her disrespectful behaviour .. she feels it happened because of her contact with grandma that was behind our backs and how grandma has been disrespecting us to her ... and just the general stress of the emotional conditions this is all creating in our home. SO my wife and I, since we exposed for grandpa on facebook, have descided to sit back now and let the exposure do its work.

Now its time to deposit love units back into my wifes account .. and rebuild what was torn down in recent weeks. Have a great weekend everyone ... and thanks for listening and hearing my venting.

MNG

P.S. Grandpa has SSA and HNHN now... confirmed this last night. He is 1/2 done SAA and we intend to send him "love busters"

edit to add p.s.
Posted By: happyheart Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 10/04/11 06:58 PM
Does your daughter know about Grandma's infedility?
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 10/04/11 09:01 PM
Yes she does know .. she was the first to know out of all of us .. Grandma was dragging her through the coals before we knew what was going on. Trying to get DD13 to take her side and paint us all like bad guys in all this.

p.s. SHe knew it before grandpa even knew ..

edit to add p.s.
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 10/11/11 04:33 PM
Update on grandmas affair. AFter about 4 days or so of having our exposure info on grandmas facebook wall ... grandma deleted her facebook. But before she could .. almost all her church friends got a chance to read it.

MANY think that exposing on facebook like we did was a HUGE mistake and are not very pleased with us, some even to the point of saying how can we say we love her and hurt her in the same paragraph .. and how that is not of god .. but we are devil spawn for doing this as we did. We are a bit hurt by that .. but we are being the "bad guys" for grandpa since he is so computer illiterate.

GRandma stood up in front of her church after exposure and proclaimed that her and this OM are not having an affair (the OM is on the worship team and recently seperated from his wife).

Well .. Exposure did its job due to all the pressure from her church and all the eyes on them and the articles i posted on her facebook wall about affairs and some revealed info my wife and I had .. etc. Well just the other day grandma calmly called grandpa and admitted who it was (the other worship team member) and her church has now asked her to step down from the worship team. She still refuses to let grandpa go home.

Grandpa has asked me to come up with a plan B letter for him. Any suggestions? GRandma is very well employed and grandpa is not ... GRandpa wants grandma to let him come home since he is living in a travel trailor on one of their rental properties for 7 weeks now. Do you still think grandpa has a chance of reconciliaion?

I bought him love busters and have sent it to him. Should be shipped out today.

Praying for them as we have been asked to not help anymore other than the plan B letter.

MNG

Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 10/20/11 08:46 PM
Hey all ... Just another quick update. I feel like a bit of a MB failure in a way. I gave it my best shot ...

Grandma still could not return to reality and give up OM and go back to her marriage. Grandma has filed for divorce on grounds of an abusive marriage and is now laundering money to OM through his mechanics shop. She is trying to deal with the separation of assets without going to court. The affair was in a small town and the exposure I did for grandpa ruined the OMs business since OM was really the only mechanic shop in town. Both Grandma and OM have been outkasted from church aswell since the exposure got out to her entire church.

I have seemingly lost almost every real family member I have since grandma now hates us for what we did and cutting her off her grandaughter. Most of my "family" consists of people that are not blood related. Another "blood relative" down the drain.

On a good note .. I just got back from hunting .. took my dd!# to get her away from the drama and focus on having a good time with me and having some bonding time. Of course this was with an enthusiastic agreement with my wife. My daughter shot 3 grouse and cleaned them too! (with some directions of course).

The wife and I realized we spent way too much energy helping grandpa kill Grandmas affair and are back to focusing on the marriage. Even though I feel like a MB failure .. i do feel a sense of relief that grandpa no longer needs us to help him other than offer a voice of encouragement once in a while now. He has all the MB tools we could get him and regrets not listening to us from the beginning because he didnt FEEL like it was the right thing to do, but in our wasted efforts he now sees he should have.

Time to get things back to normal in our home. THanks for reading my venting. Maybe now I can get offer help again to some other posters here .. instead of pouring out my crap onto my thread lol.

MNG

edited to add minor detail.
Posted By: markos Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 10/21/11 03:57 AM
NiceGuy, it sounds like you guys did well. I am sorry for the family fallout. It seems every year I lose more and more relatives for various reasons, usually not good ones, but often reasons over which I have no control. Starts to feel really isolated sometimes ... but when things are going great between me and my wife, I don't seem to mind it at all. smile Glad to hear you guys are back focusing on the marriage. 15 hours! (Or better yet, 25-30!)
Posted By: markos Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 10/21/11 03:59 AM
What you guys went through was not MB failure. You helped extricate your grandfather from the situation.

If you had not been there, in his desperation he might have gotten into a really bad situation.

We found out about an affair in our town this week, but the BS and WS emailed us all jointly after we contacted them, telling us to back off. Apparently WS is telling BS that they can only recover if BS guarantees their privacy or something. So very disappointing.
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 10/21/11 04:37 PM
Thanks Markos .. You are right .. when things are going good for my wife and I everything always seems ok ... no matter whats going on in the outside world. Its heart breaking to hear grandpa on the phone ... and to see my DD13 upset about the situation. Grandma threw us all away becasue of her shame ... sometimes I feel like i did too much .. and it drove her away even more. I even question myself if i had ever gotten involved at all (grandma dragged DD13 into it so i kinda had too) if it would have ended this way. I guess it was meant to be ...

This is not the first time grandma has ran away from her problems instead of facing them head on ... hard to believe that all this has happened ... and i feel responsible for the escelation that it ramped up to be since no one else, but my wife and I, stood up to Grandma and her nasty behaviour. Everyone else slammed us for our involvement and figured we should have just cut off DD13 from grandma and left it at that but as i seen stated many times .. usually ppl that that dont agree on our approach are either perpetrators .. or have never experienced it so their views are skewed.

*sigh*

Abnormal seems to be the norm these days .. and not many "get it". It sure is a battle to get ppl to do what is right even when its slapping them in the face over and over again. I really wish Grandpa listened to us from the beginning. he gets it now .. but the one thing I am afraid of is him blaming me if grandma says "I WAS going to come home and possibly work on it but becasue you made a fool out of me I will never come back now" and be mad at me for how it ended. I guess its not over until its really over ... who knows whats gods plan is in all this ... hopefully something good.

The good part though is that grandpa is not phoning us every day and sapping all our energy/time anymore as we spoon feed him MB cuz he was too lazy to do all the reading himself .. so i guess thats a plus. I hope he continues to read and learn MB and possibly one day get s a second chance with Grandma if she comes to her senses. Probably not though ...

*shrugs*


MNG





Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 12/01/11 06:48 PM
Just a brief update on Grandma ... She is blaming me and my wife for meddling in her business and is sick and tired of always being the one to say sorry .. (ironic) she claims she will have nothing to do with any of us til WE (my wife and I) appologize to her for what we did. (expose her affair). HAHA! I laugh .. like i need to appologize for her affair .. as if i forced her to do it. Psssht ...

Anyhow .. I have caught wind that grandmas AP is really mad at us for what we did and is looking into sueing us for slandering because since our exposure, his automotive shop has lost TONS of business and he is losing money now. (we exposed on FB to his entire church on grandmas public wall).

Does he have any ground to stand on??
Posted By: Kirby Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 12/01/11 06:59 PM
Originally Posted by MrNiceGuy
Just a brief update on Grandma ... She is blaming me and my wife for meddling in her business and is sick and tired of always being the one to say sorry .. (ironic) she claims she will have nothing to do with any of us til WE (my wife and I) appologize to her for what we did. (expose her affair). HAHA! I laugh .. like i need to appologize for her affair .. as if i forced her to do it. Psssht ...

Anyhow .. I have caught wind that grandmas AP is really mad at us for what we did and is looking into sueing us for slandering because since our exposure, his automotive shop has lost TONS of business and he is losing money now. (we exposed on FB to his entire church on grandmas public wall).

Does he have any ground to stand on??

Here's the definition of slander: "oral defamation, in which someone tells one or more persons an untruth about another which untruth will harm the reputation of the person defamed."

It sounds like the guy wants to accuse you of LIBEL, rather than slander. Here's the definition of libel: "to publish in print (including pictures), writing or broadcast through radio, television or film, an untruth about another which will do harm to that person or his/her reputation, by tending to bring the target into ridicule, hatred, scorn or contempt of others. Libel is the written or broadcast form of defamation, distinguished from slander which is oral defamation."

If the information you put on FB was TRUE, then he has no case. However, he might hire a lawyer anyway. In that event, you will need to lawyer up yourself.
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 12/01/11 07:02 PM
Yeah ... it was true and still is .. they are still in the affair too. However .. grandma took down her FB page .. so you cant see what was said anymore.

I am not too worried ... but thought I would ask here since many people here have much more experience with this than I do.

Thanks for the info!
Posted By: markos Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 12/01/11 07:10 PM
Originally Posted by MrNiceGuy
Just a brief update on Grandma ... She is blaming me and my wife for meddling in her business and is sick and tired of always being the one to say sorry .. (ironic) she claims she will have nothing to do with any of us til WE (my wife and I) appologize to her for what we did. (expose her affair). HAHA! I laugh .. like i need to appologize for her affair .. as if i forced her to do it. Psssht ...

It is she who should be asking what she needs to change in order for you guys to have anything to do with her!

Quote
Anyhow .. I have caught wind that grandmas AP is really mad at us for what we did and is looking into sueing us for slandering because since our exposure, his automotive shop has lost TONS of business and he is losing money now. (we exposed on FB to his entire church on grandmas public wall).

Does he have any ground to stand on??

Awesome! Tell him to bring it! Get the whole sordid story exposed in court. That'll probably be better than renting a billboard or taking out an ad in the paper! laugh

Call his bluff. Shoot, I might contribute to your attorney's fees, if any, if you'll send me a link to any resulting headlines. smile

I am not a lawyer, this isn't legal advice. I don't even know if I have to say "I'm not a lawyer" or not.

I can read the first amendment, and I think you can say whatever you want. Especially if it's true. I remember my American history: "Truth is an absolute defense against libels."
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 12/01/11 07:31 PM
Thanks guys ... have I ever told you MB members how glad I am that you are here?

I didnt think they had much of a leg to stand on .. but it was a worry that it was even mentioned at all. Maybe I could counter sue (if it comes up) for the inappropriate behaviour of involving my child in adult business that was not appropriate for her and caused us MUCH grief and pain during the affair process that grandma dragged our daughter through and the turmoil the surfaced as a result.
Posted By: markos Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 12/01/11 07:55 PM
Heh, I think a countersuit would be a brilliant way to bring even more unwelcome attention onto their affair and cause trouble for it!
Posted By: MrWondering Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 12/03/11 01:34 AM
Anyone can sue pretty much anyone for anything. Whether such case can survive summary disposition (and thus get really expensive to the point you'd consider a nuisance settlement) is another matter.

Truth is a defense to libel

however, be sure to always use the word "AFFAIR" when exposing someone and not the words "adulterer" or "adultery" since adultery is more specifically defined as extramarital sexual relations and the word "affair" could mean just about anything. It's much easier to prove "the truth" if you said "affair" but absent video evidence or other proof they actually had sexual relations proving they are adulterers is a different story. The judge can't weigh the circumstantial evidence and decide the facts support the inference that "adultery" occurred so he can't dismiss the case. A question of fact for the jury remains and their claim likely can survive summary disposition and actually proceed to trial. Doesn't mean they win. Juries and judges abhor waywards and the notion that they would sue someone and try to profit from their own misbehavior just doesn't go over well. They will NEVER win in an actual courtroom.

That being said...waywards threaten lawsuits often but rarely ever sue. They want this swept under the rug and MORE exposure in an open courtroom is not what they want. You'll have the right to depose each of them FOR HOURS...delving further into their lives then they ever wanted anybody. You can bet that this behavior isn't the first immoral thing OM has done which will all be discoverable.

Thus...don't sweat it.

Good luck...it's been interesting reading all your posts back to 2007 when you first arrived (just on your thread). I was 30 when I got married and 38 when I arrived here...so you and your wife have a decade head start on me and a decade headstart on enjoying the fruits of an MB marriage.

Godspeed,
Mr. W

Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 12/05/11 08:24 PM
Thanks ... its been quite the adventure but its all coming together now. I hope we do not have any further issues with grandma and her AP. If we do .. I believe it would be a mistake on HER part to try anything. We have our I's dotted and your T's crossed.

If it was not for MB tools (i know i didnt do much for posting and asking for help and just worked through MB myself for the most part, and doing alot of back sliding in between). Things are TONs ... and HEAP loads better than I could have ever imagined (other than this grandma thing). Looking back on my old posts and remembering those hard times and comparing them to now .. its like night and day difference in my wifes attitude .. and my own. ITs been very enlightening and as difficult as it has been sometimes when i thought I would never get through to my wife in regards to the MB material... i left it for god .. and he changed my wifes heart. If not for MB, I would not know where I would be today .. nor do i believe i would be married still. I am soo glad neither my wife nor I succumbed to a PA even though we both dabbled in EA without realizing it.

Marriage Builders is God sent THROUGH Dr. Harley. I just wish I could convince more of my family to see it for what it is .. many do not think they need help even though i can clearly see they do .. but when the cookie crumbles on them I am sure they will finally get it.

Seems sometimes that it takes drastic situations to get people to realize whats in their best interest.

Once My wife and I finally read every relevant book for us .. we will most likely get the "how to help others" book. (cant remember the name of it). We are currently reading "buyers, renters and freeloaders and it has really opened our eyes and added another "MB filter" to look through.

I am soooooooo looking forward to the rest of my life with my wife and will remain a MB until I die. I will also be teaching my kids MB as it fits in their lives... my DD13 already told me that when she gets a BoyFriend that he has to comply with MB from day one lol ... or hes out the door. hahahahaha.

MNG

p.s. sorry for rambling .. lol ..
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 12/08/11 12:17 AM
GAh ... going to see grandpa for the first time since all this drama with grandma and grandpa began. He didnt do anything we told him to do ... but told us AFTER that he should have listened to us from the beginning ... not sure what to say to him now.

Maybe told ya so? He couldnt even get past step 1.

*sigh* ... heading home to face the music.
Posted By: ItCanGetBetter Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 12/08/11 06:19 AM
I told you so is a DJ
Posted By: markos Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 12/08/11 02:44 PM
Originally Posted by MrNiceGuy
GAh ... going to see grandpa for the first time since all this drama with grandma and grandpa began. He didnt do anything we told him to do ... but told us AFTER that he should have listened to us from the beginning ... not sure what to say to him now.

Maybe told ya so? He couldnt even get past step 1.

*sigh* ... heading home to face the music.

I would say "I love you, Grandpa. I'm sorry this has happened." And then support him in any way possible.
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 12/09/11 07:07 PM
Well .. Grandpa came over Wednesday night ... after i got home from work. We spent the evening having conversation about his falling/fallen apart marriage. Rehashing all the crap. It was very draining... Grandpa ended up staying til 2am talking his face off about all the could haves .. would haves. He has also been defending MB to others .. and his church can now see the light in regards to my wife and I exposing. Had it not been for us .. and doing a wack of hte foot work for him he may be in alot worse shape than he is now. Hes doing ok ... he tried to keep his tears back and not whine too much ... he went off again on how he should have listened to us from the beginning instead of taking his pastors advice .. etc ..

I didnt come back on after wednesday becasue wife and I needed some UA to make some LB deposits. We were both pretty snarly the next day due to the LB withdrawls from the affair conversation and staying up til 2am repeating ourselves a bunch of times. Once we had repeated ourselves a wack of times i read outloud some of the book "buyers, Renters, and freeloaders" I read the section about haters,dislikers, likers and lovers .. and then read out the section on Electric Fence personality... after reading those his face was lit up as if he had an epiphany of sorts and realized that his wife has an EFP. His demeaner changed and he felt better after all his venting and my outloud book reading.

He is very greatful ... but man it is still draining. We pray for some sort of answer for him ... one minute he wants nothing to do with her .. and the next he wants to reconcile. We told him if he wants her still he will have to go to a DARK plan B .. but he doesnt hink its possible .. so i printed off the plan B material her .. and the carrot and stick thread for him to go over ... but he is SUCH a slow reader ... and he keeps contacting her and it sets him back each time .. I tried to explain this to him .. but he says he can not go totally dark plan B and has all sorts of excuses for it .. i just shrugged and sighed ... not listening again ... O well .. I need to step back and let him drive now. We have done all we can and even though he admits we have been right each step of the way he still fights our advice to some bit. Gah ...

edited to add he even said we have done more for him than his counsellor has and been spot on in everything. He thinks we should be marriage counsellors since we study it so much and know so much on how to fix it. >.<
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 12/12/11 07:30 PM
More to add ....

I JUST found out i am going to be an UNCLE! OMG! I am excited and worried at the same time. I am excited becasue I have never been an Uncle before but worried becasue my brother (who is mentioned earlier in my thread) is the dad. I want to be supportive .. however .. my bro and his GF are NOT married and living together.

Any advice would be great .. I want to get them on board with MB but I dont want to seem pushy about it, they are aware of MB but a bit reluctant to take it on as they do not particularily like self help stuff.

edit to add .. that I also got a Xmas card from grandma and her AP. Nothing in it .. other than to .. from .. and some words in the card that came pre written and her new address where they moved in together. Makes me wana PUKE! My DD13 said .. lets not open it and send it back! ... but we opened it. My DD13 then said .. ok lets put a NASTY letter in it and send her a card back. We will prolly not do a thing. But what a slap in the face it was.
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 12/16/11 09:11 PM
OK I really need some advice. I just got word from my wife that a package is at the grey hound station for us From grandma to our kids. I am torn. Do we accept it? Its from both Grandma and her AP as a gift from both. The kids would want them ... however its tainted with her affair.

Would you keep it? Or send it back? or donate it? Burn it? I go with my wife today after work to pick it up and we decide what to do with it then. OBVIOUSLY grandma is trying to buy her way back into our lives.

Grrrrrr
Posted By: markos Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 12/17/11 03:44 AM
That is a toughie, NiceGuy! We have a couple relatives that sometimes send gifts and checks or whatever that we really do not want to hear from. For years I threw away checks my wayward mother sent me.

I think this could go either way. I lean towards quietly discarding or donating the gifts, especially because it's not just a gift from grandma, it's from her affair partner. (I am assuming that they actually labeled it as such, from what you've written.) But I don't think it would be the end of the world if you didn't discard it.

How does your wife feel about it? Don't forget to put her first in the decision. smile
Posted By: Brits_Brat Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 12/17/11 02:39 PM
I'd send it back with a note that says, "At Christmas time, we celebrate Jesus' birth. He came to save us from our sins. Adultery is a sin.'
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 12/19/11 05:16 PM
Thanks for the responses guys. It turns out that the parcel came from grandpas brother who happens to be grandmas tenant. THe parcel was labeled to my kids .. and with grandpas brothers name on it, it had us a bit confused as to what to do. So we accepted it at first ... took it to the car and opened it. To our disappointment (we suspected as such) grandmas gifts to our children were inside! SO my wife promptly brought the package back in and had it sent back to them... she sent it collect. (they have to pay the transportation fee of it coming back if they want it back.

Unfortunately we did not get a chance to add a note to it. My wife will be writing grandma up an email explaining that since all the gifts were from her and her AP we can not accept them .. and get this .. "with love from".... we almost threw up. We also told DD13 about it and she was also in agreeance to send it back. Now DD13 wants to send grandma a letter telling her how she feels about grandmas behaviour. I am thinking we will let her.

Thanks for the support!

edit to add ... granpas brother is on grandmas side and thinks that grandma is justified in her adultery. *sigh* .. some people just dont get it.
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 01/03/12 10:42 PM
Well .. posting another update.

After thinking about it for a bit my wife decided to write grandma an email and explain to her calmly that and briefly that while she is in an active affair we will not be allowing her access to her grandchildren and her AP will never be accepted into our home or life. But when my wife sent it ... (she didnt check right away) the next day the message was sent back! Either Grandma has her email blocking us .. or she has decided to not have or use that email again. Anyhow .. So my wife sends the message to her AP! And he blew his LID at us! (in an email) which he then told us how they are closer to god than ever soul mates .. blah blah blah and how we are using our kids against them and how horrible that must be for our kids etc.. and that he has enough love in his family and with his church they dont need ours (what kind of church loves or allows that?) .. AND he went off on how much settlement money grandma and grandpa are splitting .. etc ... AND! told us how he is NOT going to give grandma the message and that she can figure it out for herself when she gets the package back with the parcels in it that were for our children "with love" from the two of them. The letter also claimed that since grandma left grandpa .. that grandpa is now acting like a pedifile and chasing 17 YO teenages from church .. and they have informed ther parents .. and told us they are going to call the ministry on US for allowing grandpa to be in our lives (So .. I printed the message and gave the copy to grandpa so he can see the allogations that is being laid agasint him and us).

I personally think its a bluff .. especially since grandmas AP claimed he is not going to show her our message ... or his. Interesting ...

On top of this .. We invited Grandpa out for christmas eve and to be with us for the christmas morning. Well christmas eve my wife and I experienced something horrible .. we went shopping at our local "superstore" and it was PACKED! My wife was ahead of me and grabbing things off the shelves and bringing it back to the buggy ... she then got ahead of me and into another isle before me .. and as I turned the corner .. there was a crowd of people around someone who had fallen and appeared to have hit their head on the floor and was bleeding .. ALOT. there blood was like 12" in every direction from the back of their head. And people were still going down the isle to get groceries .. and the manager had not blocked the isle. MY wife ahd walked RIGHT up to the people .. not realizing what all the fuss was about. It was HORRIBLE! someone had called 911 .. and the paramedics were on the way. However .. we got the the checkout about 5mins or so after the scene and the paramedics arrived .. very casually. We waited in the line up to check out for about 15mins or so and the paramedics still had not left .. and when we got outside a 2nd ambulance arrived without a siren on .. just lights flashing.

*sigh* We were in complete shock ... the scene was NOT managed very well people were still going into and out of hte isle to get their grocries!.. and my wife and I ended up in a bit of an argument over petty details prolly due to the shock of the situation. Then we went back home and grandpa (didnt care to much about what we just witnessed since he needed to talk about the affair) had arrived and for the rest of the night we talked about grandmas affair ... we ended up sitting up til 2:30am drinking a 26oz bottle of sambuka .. rehashing... and getting frusterated over what grandpa SHOULD be doing (he gave up on the MB material we gave him but is singing praises to everyone about us) The horriblething now is that grandpa has admitted to us he used to talk bad about us all the time prior to us sticking up for his marriage... that hurt a bit ..

*takes a deep breath*

On the bright side though .. my kids prollly had the best christmas ever .. and my wife was an AMAZING cook who made christmas day dinner for about 18ppl and it was blessed and delicious! WE went for a christmas dinner on boxing day to my stepsisters boy friends parents and it was disgusting! ..

So there ya have it .. That about sums up my holidays. Christmas eve was VERY VERY shocking and stressful .. but the sambuka drowned it out a bit.

MNG
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 01/13/12 06:22 PM
Well .. today is not such a good day .. infact I am feeling very depressed. SF is going down the drain it seems when it comes to quality ... things have been going very well every other way except for SF and it seems to have taken a back burner. The problem is not frequency .. but the lack of desire displayed during. I find myself feeling empty and even more depressed afterwards because as much as i want it .. my wife is willing and seems enthusiastic but doesnt want me to pleasure her.. just wants to meet my need to relief my frusterations and then move on with the evening. I would almost rather not have SF when its like this.

I am just curious how I could bring this up to her in a respectful way so it doesnt create tension. In the past whenever i brought this up it usually leads to putting my wife on the defensive and her telling me I am putting too much pressure on her which makes a massive love bank withdrawl to complain about sex.

O well .. who knows ... maybe this is still part of the christmas blues we have and our lack of time together since the beginning of december. I know .. i have been around here for quite some time and should know what to do .. But I am triggered in such a way that I feel that bringing this up will cause a fight or an emotional withdrawl from her and even less sex and its making me feel "gun shy" so to speak.(i know .. thats probably a DJ).

So i guess im wondering how to relay this info without putting her on the defensive and making it worse. I am happy with the frequency .. but its the lack of emotional connection I have thats depressing me and I dont want to sound ungreatful to her for her efforts (shes trying) or create more unnecessary conflict.

Possibly i just answered my own questions as i typed this out. We need more time to connect ... gah I am full of anxiety thinking about this.

We are going out tomorrow night to a club for dancing and a few drinks, hopefully that will get the ball rolling.

Sorry If i sound like I am blogging or rambling .. but it helps to type it out. To be totally honest I am actually embarrassed to be asking such questions with my knowledge of MB.

*sigh*

MNG
Posted By: markos Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 01/13/12 06:41 PM
How long are you guys together, talking and meeting other intimate emotional needs, before SF?

And how much time are you guys getting together each week?
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 01/13/12 07:10 PM
We get about an hour after the kids go to bed at 9pm (some nights is later becasue our kids are in martial arts .. on gets home at 9pm so she doesnt get in bed til 9:30pm. This time after 9pm includes making lunches together for the next day and chatting about our days and tidying up the house a bit together. In bed by 10pm we chat a bit more .. cuddle ... I give her some shoulder rubs .. (her shoulders are always sore) and rub her feet ... and she passes out. This is almost daily. Sometimes we will watch a show together in bed on a laptop ... if we run out of conversation. ANd of course cuddle and give affection during that time.

SO i could say we get like 10 hours a week of NO kids time as of late .. but it was better though before christmas .. probably getting around 15 - 20 hours a week. But the weekday routines are pretty much the same .. just we would spend alot more time together on the weekends and let our oldest feed our youngest while we cuddle and caught up on our UA time.

So I am pretty sure its lack of UA time. I just cant bring myself to express it though. I feel like a switch has been flipped in me ..

Some things though I should mention is that My wife started a new job ... this is her 2nd week. And we are still shaken up about the holidays. Maybe its just a phase ... I dont know .. i just know its depressing and making me want to withdraw and find something independant to do. I feel like i am running out of steam which i guess is probably my taker in me saying I have had enough.

*shrugs*
Posted By: Prisca Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 01/13/12 07:17 PM
Quote
SO i could say we get like 10 hours a week of NO kids time as of late ..
That'll do it. Every time.
Posted By: markos Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 01/13/12 07:36 PM
Originally Posted by MrNiceGuy
To be totally honest I am actually embarrassed to be asking such questions with my knowledge of MB.

Don't be embarrassed! There are a lot of reasons why somebody might have massive MB knowledge and still face troubles.

Don't forget that Dr. Harley is always an email and a phone call away.
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 01/13/12 07:57 PM
Originally Posted by Prisca
Quote
SO i could say we get like 10 hours a week of NO kids time as of late ..
That'll do it. Every time.

I know .. i see it too ... Its getting increasingly frusterating. I feel like an a$$ for feeling like I do. ALmost like I am shallow for feeling this way. Is this normal to feel like this? I feel guilty for even feeling like I do.

This reminds me of that vid I posted about "my response is my responsibility" But its hard to shake my negative self talk in my head about my needs feeling shallow and how emotionally disconnected I feel right now .. seems easier to just find something else to do til my wife actually desires me .. but i also know doing nothing will not create desire in her ... So conflicting. She feels good though ... cheery .. and such .. and I feel like a mope but dont want to ruin her good mood by my negativity.

I have recently had to change my diet too .. found out in my blood work that I am pre diabetic ... i am not even close to overweight. I am in great shape. but my blood work says my triglycerides are at dangerous levels .. i am depressed about my diet change too ... which is to get rid of sugar in my foods as much as i can to lower my triglycerides to a safe level again which makes all my meals .. very bland and i tend to feel low blood sugar a fair bit too as my body is used to having high sugar levels i guess in my blood.

I had some ECG's lately and My wife is happy that my ECG's turned out ok .. ( discovered i have aa irregular heart beat which is caused by a right bundle branch block in my heart which is electrical connection related and I may have a pace maker in my future if it gets worse) but during my testing process the blood work turned up these other things that I was not aware of as I mentioned earlier in this post about the triglycerides and pre diabetes. I should be happy the Drs feel my electrical block is benign ... but I am not.

I guess we will see how this weekend unfolds .. I really dont wana feel like I do and I feel like a jerk for feeling like this.

Hopefully tomorrow night out dancing will lighten us up a bit .. it will be our first date night since the beginning of december.

Sorry for ranting ...

MNG
Posted By: Raging_Calm Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 01/13/12 08:24 PM

MrNiceGuy - sorry you are feeling like this. You have been so helpful and encouraging on my thread-I wish there was something I could say to help. I am too much of a nembie to offer any MB advice-but I will pray for you and your wife-and be sure and get in lots of UA time this weekend!

RC
Posted By: Prisca Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 01/13/12 08:35 PM
Quote
Is this normal to feel like this?
Yes. You can't expect to feel emotionally connected when you do not have enough hours together in order to create those feelings. It's amazing how quickly it can happen. Just one week of not having enough hours together can really screw things up emotionally.

UA really, really is the key.

She's not going to feel the sexual desire you want in her if she's not first getting the hours with you that she needs to be in love.

Make scheduling 15 hours together your priority. You don't even have to tell her that you're feeling dissatisfied -- if you get the 15-20 hours in on a regular basis, her desire will more than likely change on its own.
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 01/13/12 08:37 PM
Thanks RC!! .. we all have our ups and downs .. I am just feeling the down side a bit lately. The holidays really did a number on us .. and the whole heart/diet/grandmas affair/dead person incident thing didnt help at all.

The positive side to this is that it will turn around eventually ... my wife is very onboard with MB and i have felt worse than this before.

I too hope that we can get some good love bank deposits in this weekend.

Your prayers and thoughts are appreciated RC.

smile

MNG

I think I will have a chat with my wife about our UA time .. and not mention the sexual part. That part will probably fix itself once our UA gets better again.

I appreciate having this place as a sounding board ... it really helps.

Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 01/13/12 08:42 PM
Originally Posted by Prisca
Quote
Is this normal to feel like this?
Yes. You can't expect to feel emotionally connected when you do not have enough hours together in order to create those feelings. It's amazing how quickly it can happen. Just one week of not having enough hours together can really screw things up emotionally.

UA really, really is the key.

She's not going to feel the sexual desire you want in her if she's not first getting the hours with you that she needs to be in love.

Make scheduling 15 hours together your priority. You don't even have to tell her that you're feeling dissatisfied -- if you get the 15-20 hours in on a regular basis, her desire will more than likely change on its own.

Thanks Prisca .. your absolutely right. smile just talking here is really helping ... WAY better than marriage counselling!

Thanks for listening, reading and validating me.
Posted By: markos Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 01/13/12 10:13 PM
Originally Posted by MrNiceGuy
and not mention the sexual part. That part will probably fix itself once our UA gets better again.

You are a genius, you know. smile
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 01/13/12 11:37 PM
Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by MrNiceGuy
and not mention the sexual part. That part will probably fix itself once our UA gets better again.

You are a genius, you know. smile
LOL .. thanks markos. I really value everyones input. Especially when I am feeling low like i was today. At times like this .. it hard to see the forest sometimes when your standing in the trees.

So I had a chat with my wife .. I didnt mention my dissatisfaction so to not further complicate things and put her on the defensive and cause LB withdrawls .. but asked her how she felt and she told me she feels the same way I do about our UA time .. she sees it .. so i am glad for this. She told me that her stresses and anxiety about her new job just are not going away and constantly arrive at the front of her thoughts ... which distracts her from enjoying our UA time properly .. but she also told me that its getting better as she settles in. this is probably why date nights OUT, rather than finding something entertaining to do at home, help you focus on each other ... brings the relationship to the front line and its a distraction from the day to day routines.

Again .. thanks everyone. Time to go and make some love bank deposits and get out of this rut.

MNG
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 01/16/12 02:15 PM
How's it going, MNG? Have you pulled out of the rut?
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 01/16/12 05:35 PM
Good Morning! I am gald to include the word good in this sentence. WOOTS!

Yes .. the rut has been filled in. MY wife and I sat down and had some heart to heart .. and read some of the "draw close" book .. We both discussed how we have not been spending time together as often as we should and validated eachother in regards to how we felt about it. ITs been a tough few weeks and we have planned to put more hours in to our marriage again.

One of the funny parts of this though was that my dd13 overheard our conversation on friday (shes fairly versed in MB material now since we talk about it lots) .. and got up with my ds7 on saturday morning and told me to go back to bed to get some UA with my wife. I was so proud! So we got to catch up on some hours saturday morning which was great! DD13 then asked if she could take ds7 to the park to go play in the snow and she took him for another hour or so.

AFterwards when the kids came back from the park ( the UA was great btw! my wife attacked me as soon as the kids were gone out of the house! woots! )I took the kids outside to get them out of my wifes hair for a bit (so she could catch up on domestic stuff) and since it had snowed .. and my yard is sloped downhill a bit I made a 50ft+ long hill to slide on for the kids and we played on it for the rest of the day then poured water on it to freeze it for sunday.

Well .. Saturday evening came and my wife and I went out for some drinks and dancing and had a great time.. and dd13 babysat ds7 that evening and then let us sleep in AGAIN on sunday morning to get some more UA. DD13 totally understands our UA time issue .. and we rewarded her with allowing her our with her friends to go shopping and ice skating at the rink on sunday afternoon.

ITs amazing what the proper UA hours can do. Reading back at how I was feeling .. its hard to imagine I was feeling that low (rewritten history syndrome?) becasue I am not anywhere close to feeling like that now .. I feel recharged and ready to take on the week! So does my wife! .. shes very affectionate now and even told me how she was proud i didnt over react towards our lack of UA or have any sort of angry outburst. This has been the best UA time since before christmas. We both handeled it calmly .. where as situation like this before MB would have ended up as even more fights and more love bank withdrawls.

Venting here really helped me see where I was at and helped me not take out my frusterations at everyone at home. Thank goodness i didnt go down that path and very few withdrawls were made from my wifes love bank as i bit my tongue and worked through it respectfully and I was very proud of DD13 for recognizing our frusterations (she even told me that me and moms "energy" was not as cheery as it normally was probably due to lack of time together). Such a smart girl!

So .. all in all .. things are on the right track again. Thanks for listening/Reading!

MNG

p.s. EDIT: There was a thread i was following that started on MB 101 and got put in to SSA called "need help" and it disappeared. What happened? I was the first poster to mention that the situation on it was an affair and it ended up being so .. then it fell off the boards completely. frown
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 01/16/12 07:30 PM
Quote
We both discussed how we have not been spending time together as often as we should
I wondered about that. I've noticed that I get a little cranky when Mr. Bliss and I have a hectic week and don't get our UA hours in. smile

Quote
and told me to go back to bed to get some UA with my wife.
This is hilarious! laugh

Quote
p.s. EDIT: There was a thread i was following that started on MB 101 and got put in to SSA called "need help" and it disappeared. What happened? I was the first poster to mention that the situation on it was an affair and it ended up being so .. then it fell off the boards completely.
The poster decided to be 'open and honest' with his WW and showed her this site & told her his user name. frown I assume the mods pulled his thread to keep him safe.
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 01/16/12 08:24 PM
Thanks for the update maritalbliss. Its amazing how quickly the love bank drains when you dont spend enough time together. I am also very thankful and proud of my DD13 who has been amazing support in regards to our UA time. Since we have taken on MB our support from outside family has kinda dropped off the radar because they dont want to spend much time with our kids unless we do something for them first, which is sad ... and usually when they do take the kids .. they take them just before bed .. and then want us to come get them by 9am... frown

On a side note .. this weekend grandpa called us to update us on the grandma situation. GRandpa (step grandpa actually) wants us to allow DD13 to come up to his place to visit on her own ... he doesnt mention DS7 and this was disheartening. He claims it would be good for her to come up and see the horses .. but after my wife and I talked this over .. I came up with the conclusion that his motives for her to come up revolve around the chance that grandma may want to visit him if she comes up there (6 or so hour drive from our place). My wife and i discussed it and we think it would be awkward for DD13 to do this ... not to mention that DD13 also feels she wants to go see the horses .. but now feels uncomfortable due to a recent experience where she was sexually harassed on her way home from school by a 50-60 YO man. SO that experience makes her torn between wanting to go up and visit grandpa and see horses .. and not going because grandpa falls within that age range of the guy that harassed her as she has been enlightened that people notice her in ways she shouldnt be noticed as per her age.

What do you guys think? WOuld you allow your DD13 if you had one go up and visit? My wife and I think its a bit soon for visits of this nature but think if the affair stuff died off or grandma broke up with her AP but stayed single we would allow visitations up there where they live ... and my daughter was adamant about seeing the horses but now is not sure ... Wife and I don't think grandpas motive is very good .. AND hes a "single" guy now .. and talks at us constantly on how he needs a woman in his life .. it weirds me out to think about his thought processing on this situation .. even if it is harmless .. im not sure if its worth the risk. Or am I overreacting?

MNG
Posted By: Raging_Calm Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 01/16/12 08:47 PM

MrNiceGuy - I am so glad that you and your wife had a good weekend and were able to get back on track.

I really appreciate you posting about all this-it is good to see how seasoned MB'ers deal with the inevitable problems that come up.

As for your thoughts about Grandpa and your teenager-my general rule when making these kinds of decisions is if you have any kind of feeling in your gut-Trust it and act accordingly - Good luck!

RC
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 01/16/12 09:11 PM
Thanks Raging ... your prayers were very appreciated. Yes .. even us seasoned MBers go through rough patches .. but as you can see we come back here for support to keep us inline.

As for the grandpa thing .. one of the things that got me thining about his motivation besides not asking about DS7 was he was gettingdefensive about our rights to keep the kids from Grandma ... telling us we cant just cut her off .. but that came out of nowhere after my wife mentioned that we were unsure if we would allow DD13 to visit up there at this time ... I was all like "whats grandma and rights have to do with DD13 and horses and her visiting grandpa?" hmmmm ...

So your probalby right .. my gut feeling is saying NO.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 01/17/12 11:59 AM
Quote
What do you guys think? WOuld you allow your DD13 if you had one go up and visit?
No. Nonononono. I wouldn't allow her to go with just DS7, either. I wouldn't allow her to go unless there was another trusted adult there.
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 01/17/12 05:46 PM
Originally Posted by maritalbliss
Quote
What do you guys think? WOuld you allow your DD13 if you had one go up and visit?
No. Nonononono. I wouldn't allow her to go with just DS7, either. I wouldn't allow her to go unless there was another trusted adult there.

Yeah .. My wife and I agree with this. We both discussed this and that was the outcome. If DD13 and DS7 are so important to him, then he will make the time to come and see us.

We just got weireded out that he was so defensive about grandmas rights when my wife chatted him up about it that it sent off red flags.

MNG
Posted By: Viscountess Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 01/17/12 07:01 PM
I don't know where you are, but if you're near North Carolina your family is welcome to come visit the horses.

Heck, if you're close enough I'd lend my pony to your daughter, since she's just holding down my pasture and I have no time for her.
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 01/17/12 08:37 PM
Originally Posted by HopefulNC
I don't know where you are, but if you're near North Carolina your family is welcome to come visit the horses.

Heck, if you're close enough I'd lend my pony to your daughter, since she's just holding down my pasture and I have no time for her.

Wow .. I appreciate your generous offer. I live in British Columbia, canada. So I am a bit out of the way to come visit frown I dont even have a passport yet. frown I may take you up on the offer though if I am ever traveling through the states! My daughter thinks she is a horse whisperer ... lol .. and compared to me .. she is .. she has done so much with horses .. the care of them comes so naturally for her. SHe told me once not long ago that she was born in the wrong time era ... lol ..
Posted By: Viscountess Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 01/18/12 01:21 PM
Originally Posted by MrNiceGuy
Originally Posted by HopefulNC
I don't know where you are, but if you're near North Carolina your family is welcome to come visit the horses.

Heck, if you're close enough I'd lend my pony to your daughter, since she's just holding down my pasture and I have no time for her.

Wow .. I appreciate your generous offer. I live in British Columbia, canada. So I am a bit out of the way to come visit frown I dont even have a passport yet. frown I may take you up on the offer though if I am ever traveling through the states! My daughter thinks she is a horse whisperer ... lol .. and compared to me .. she is .. she has done so much with horses .. the care of them comes so naturally for her. SHe told me once not long ago that she was born in the wrong time era ... lol ..

You are a bit far. rotflmao I love sharing my horses and they love meeting people.

I did work for a few years as a trainer and horse whisperer, if it's something your daughter is serious about then there are career options there. I miss it dearly at times...
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 01/23/12 09:44 PM
Hey Hopeful NC thanks for the reply. My daughter would love to have a career that centered around horses. She may apply to volunteer at a christian horse ranch when shes old enough.

I also wanted to post another update on the grandma situation. Seems grandpa is defending grandmas rights as a grandparent. He is all GUNGHO to get my daughter to come up there to see him this summer (strange he doesnt mention ds7 coming up though but i get it .. hes harder to handle) ANyhow ... Grandpa tells us that GRANDMA is thinking of taking legal action agasint us for what we did ... and for not allowing her to have contact with our children. SHe is apparently taking some course that teaches her what her rights are as a grandparent .. and what to do to go about making it happen so she can gain access to them.

WHY does she have to go and say this stuff??? Why is grandpa being so supportive/argumentative about this topic? Can grandma take legal action agasint us for not allowing dd13 to see her? This is SOO frusterating. Seems that rgandma wants a big fuss over this issue and grandpa seems to be on board with it somehow .. even tho they are seperated.

I am NOT a happy camper ... and I am beginning to resent helping grandpa because of how pushy on this subject he is being. I feel like cutting them BOTH off now .. GAH!!!!!!

Sorry .. im frusterated a bit today and wanted to vent this here to see what you guys thought and what grandma could really do if anything ...

Thanks for listening.

MNG
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 02/20/12 05:55 PM
edit becasue I should know what to do .. but for some reason I am failing ...

It must be a monday ... sorry to bother you all.
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 08/07/12 09:43 PM
Today is my 14th Wedding Anniversary! WOOOTS! I have MB and the community to thank for that. MY marriage is going great.. MB and christ is our foundation and the core of our marriage now and forever.

I also thank everyone who has helped me bring my marriage back around .. and all the advice and help I recieved since i found this amazing place in 2006 (i lurked for many months before i joined). I have since spent many more years posting casually helping others while i too learn MB and more frequently in the last year or so as MB really took over the foundation of my marriage.

.. I recently discovered I had some masculinity issues from being raised by a single mom which i turned to outside sources of MB to fix me with, which as i found out, was the final missing piece to the happiness in our home. My passion that circles these discoveries (possibly not expressed very well here on MB) has brought me to the conclusion that I am a distraction to some posters here who should be helping others instead of trying to prove me wrong or whatever.

I do not want your efforts to be distracted from those who need it. My apologies.

I will be taking a break for a while (probably lurk some on my commutes to and from work for reading material) .. maybe I will come back and help others again in the future.

For now .. im going to go be the best hubby my wife wants me to be (the cheery ... funny/cocky, level headed, confident, roll with the punches great catch kinda guy) ... and focus on my family and my job.

So on that note .. I am off to go spoil my wife on our anniversary since we POJA'd to do so! smile Hard to believe i been married for 14 years and together for darn near 19 ... Man time flys!

Keep up the good fight guys Chat at ya again in the future.

MNG
Posted By: CWMI Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 08/07/12 10:05 PM
that was the lousiest "good-bye cruel world" post I've ever read. ;p

Happy anniversary!
Posted By: Wonderingif Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 08/07/12 10:12 PM
Happy Anniversary to you both!
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 08/09/12 04:48 PM
One more update before I am gone for the rest of the summer at least.

My wedding anniversary date night was fantastic!! Went out for Fancy Sushi (the best roll was the delicious roll and some golden scalops served on a candle roasting pan with garlic and butter all sizzling when it came) near my work had Tons of UA (special thanks to my DD14 who pushed us out the door when i got home to get started on the UA).

We even had a thunder storm that night and went to the roof top of my commercial building i manage to watch gods fireworks celebration of our anniversary display!. (we left once the rain started after about 40 mins of cuddling and chatting and watching the display!) Never seen lightening so close before .. was practicly right overhead. Flash BOOM! No One mississippi in between! GReat way to polish off an evening. Just wish i had brought my camera, as there would have been some amazing shots! HOwever .. i didnt know there was going to be a storm .. so .. *shrugs* It will be a great memory instead!

MNG

P.S. I will be back .. i love this place .. i will be on several holidays now til summer is over. I promise this wont be the last of me .. but the break is much needed .. my passionate side of me had been getting the best of me.

Have a great summer everyone!

smile
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 10/01/12 08:03 PM
OK .. I have a question. My daughter has been bugging me for some I technology.... specificly an Ipod. She tells me the reason is because all her friends sit around and facebook chat at school ... or text on them .. and she feels left out because the halls are quiet and she is not included. My fear with it is that it could get internet anywhere (with a password for the wi-fi of course)... and that I cant protect her from internet predators if she has seemingly unlimited access to the net and texting her friends etc.

She has a great head on her shoulder... and its not that I dont trust her .. I just have an issue with all these internet devices teens have these days ... and who knows what is being said.

I guess my question is. Is 14 too young for Ipod or something similar of that related technology with unlimited internet access? Or am I just being over fearful/protective about it and it should be no big deal? I am open to suggestions. Its been a hot topic in my home.

This is triggering my hurts from when my wife and I had internet issues in the past and is making me grouchy for some reason. frown

MNG
Posted By: CWMI Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 10/01/12 08:19 PM
Well, my 8yo has an iPod Touch, sooo...don't know if you want to hear from me! smile

I am just against buying things for the sole purpose of fitting in. Like, my 15yo has a cell phone. He wanted one long before he got one, and the reason why he got one was for me. He was getting older and spending more time away from home, to places where the walkie-talkies we used to use didn't reach. I wanted to be able to reach him. Of course, now he texts all the time with his friends, but I would never have gotten him one just so he could text with his friends, kwim?

The three younger ones all want cell phones. I don't have any need for them to have a cell phone, so no! I don't care that all their friends have one. Truth is, a lot of people are giving their kids cell phones because they've shut off the landline. I have a landline, and these kids aren't old enough to be off by themself. If I need to talk to them while they're away from me, I can get them via the other parent.

Why the 8yo has an iPod: It's a year of big birthdays here. We tend to be fair when giving gifts to the kids, and for birthdays, we tell them how much they can spend and they can choose anything (within reason, of course...I'm not buying a Playboy collection for the teenager, for instance!) that falls in that range. This year, it's $200. iPod touch is $189. So that's what he wanted. So that's what he got.

All my kids are computer savvy, I guess I just haven't worried too much over it. I check up on them, have some stuff blocked (for instance, picture messaging is not available to ds15).

Don't know if that helped!
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 10/01/12 08:24 PM
Thanks .. yes it helped some. My dd14 has a cell phone. ITs just not a smart one. Its a dumb one .. all it does is call and if she wants to text with it she has to press each number several times for one letter. Shes not allowed to give out her number and the only people we allow her to text to are my wife and I and her aunt. The phone is for emergency use (sorta) so she can contact us or give us info etc if shes going to be late from school or whatever. We have no texting/data plan on the phone either .. so thats another eason its restricted for use .. have to pay for everything that goes in and out of that phone.(she shared minuted and unlimted texting to my wifes phone tho)

*shrugs*

p.s. She gets facebook with her friends at home ... we have 2 PCs setup side by side .. and we have a keylogger set up on it that both my wife and I are aware of ... however DD14 is not. SO far shes been pretty good .. some "teen" stuff .. but i pick my battles carefully.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 10/02/12 12:42 AM
Quote
She has a great head on her shoulder... and its not that I dont trust her .. I just have an issue with all these internet devices teens have these days ... and who knows what is being said.
I think stopping the march of technology with teens is like pushing a rock up a hill. smile If your DD is responsible and you don't think it will interfere with her studies, why don't you ask her to earn the phone? (and slap some spyware on it before you give it to her.)
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 10/02/12 06:47 PM
Yeah ... she has a phone .. its just not "good enough" for her. However A turn of events (after snooping) has shown me that her "friend" has just had her ipod stolen from school. ITs their first year of high school too .. DD seems to be in a better mood now .. probably after finding out her friend just lost her Ipod .. and now has no MAJOR influence to get one.

If i got her one ... spyware will DEF be a must .. AND it will not be brought to school.

MNG
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 10/05/12 01:56 PM
Lol. I suppose she wouldn't be happy if you gave her a CB Radio then
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 10/05/12 04:09 PM
HAHA .. funny you mention that HDW. I said the same thing to my wife the other night .. and explained to her that I felt the same way about getting a CB radio that my daughter felt about getting the Ipod. I was on the phone so much when i was younger that the CB radio only made sense so I could talk to my local friends. Eventually I saved up my own money and bought a car unit and a 12v power inverter and a 20ft antenna with 200ft of cable to hook it up to the base unit. I lived on top of a big hill so I could get my signal out almost to the next town! Several of my friends got CB walkie talkies too so we could all talk without using the phone line.

Wow .. i feel old ...
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 12/22/12 12:53 AM
UPDATE:

Hey ... im having a bit of a setback lately. Both my wife and I are in a state of withdrawl. A series of events led us to a "relapse of indifference and emotional turmoil"

Its strange how it all happened.

Here is how I THINK it happened. Maybe you guys can help me.

At the beginning of December my brother asked me and my wife to baby sit his new baby (3 months old) so him and his GF (babys mom) could go out on a date. They had originally asked me for a Friday overnighter with the baby, so they could go to a concert. However ... later they called me back and said that the concert was on thursday so they couldn't go, but would go out to a dinner and movie instead on the originally planned friday night. We said ok no problem (thinking great .. we dont have to keep the baby overnight since its just dinner and a movie).

SO .. Friday comes and I am out of the house for a bit (running kids to martial arts) they drop off the baby .. and tell my wife they thought overnight was still ok since we originally agreed to it. My wife said ok and they left.

When I got home ... my wife was in a jumble. Trying to cook with a 3 Month old baby in her arms ... that was a bit upset. SHe hands off the baby to me, then tells me that its overnight. Well I immediatly begin to feel uneasy about it. But .. i dealt with it. My wife acted all stressed out .. and her energy was very .. negative. She threw a wack of lovebusters at me (a few nasty words and tone which withdrew many love units in a rapid rate) and i responded with a bit of glaring feeling a bit taken back by all this and a few nasty words were then exchanged. I appologized for my nasty comments but she didnt for hers.

Ok .. no problem. I am trying to keep my cool .. and baby whisper the kid so my wife can complete dinner. Both of our frusterations grew quickly. The baby was a bit relentless in its effort to be upset as 9pm is approaching. We pushed the babys bed time as far as we could. Was told the baby gets up at 4am to feed and so was not looking forward to 4am, so we tried to keep the baby awake longer than my brother does so we could get more sleep. After a few glares .. and a few unkind words during the whole ordeal ... I was triggered into a state of borderline withdrawl/conflict in a very short period of time. The good part is the baby slept in a bit later .. my wife got up once to feed him around 4:45am and he went right back to sleep til 9am. The next day seemed better energy.

This event pretty much set the pace for the rest of the month.

THEN... everyone is bitching about christmas and spending (exterior family members) we begin to get all sorts of feedback about an agreement of a limit on christmas spending that we had all previoulsy agreed to do. The exterior people decided not to stick to the agreement and went and spent extra money ... and then proceeded to tell us they spent WAY more than our agreements (including exactly how much they spent) and felt that our agreed limit was not enough. (we all originally agreed kids no limit and adults to spend 20$ and be creative with it) that was blown out of the water and our external family began talking about us behind our backs because of it. It leaked to us and created even more stress.(this is a few days after the baby incident). This negative talk about christmas spiraled around for a week or so stressing everyone out.

THEN ... with the coming negative talk about christmas i get triggered about an emotional event that occured a few years ago at christmas where my step mother told me to go #$%^ myself christmas morning because she was mad her daughters didnt make it out for christmas that year and we were having a discussion about christmas and santa and she was trying to convince my kids Santa was real. I had already told them hes not, but that a guy named st nick did exist and he did help poor kids in his time but not some guy that comes with magic down the chimeny and puts your toys under the tree. And i did that because i hate lying to my kids. They agreed ... i explained to my kids i was mad when i learned there was no santa and hated my mom for liein to me and i didnt want them to have false expectations of christmas.

So with this trigger reminding me about my stepmother about being told to go F myself ... i became depressed as christmas approached closer. I lost my happy go lucky feeling good about life roll off my back aura i had going ALL YEAR .. in a matter of seconds. I was down in the dumps for several days. Really Bahhumbug.

I guess my mind state caused me to not meet my wifes needs as i kinda tried to keep to myself and i had no motivation to do anything for anyone .. including myself (she was doing ok at meeting mine but was withdrawing love units faster than she made deposits with angry outbursts and disrespectful comments and would say "but i did meet your needs, so now im not good enough for you to meet mine?" and so apparently a week of trying to keep to myself to try and shake off my depression caused her to drasticly fall out of love with me and become depresed herself. SO then we BOTH became majorly withdrawn/depressed and occasionally would slip into a state of conflict but couldn't resolve so would go back to withdrawl again.

Many more days go by .. and now we are barely talking. My wife i guess (according to her) tried to be light hearted for a few days but couldnt help me out of my depression state. So after a few heated discussion i realized that the go $%^& yourself comment was really affecting me so I confronted my step mom about it because i couldnt bottle it up anymore (i said sorry to her that day for making her tell me go F myself and kinda sucked it up to keep the peace) .. and she appologized. She got all upset on the phone that i confronted her and told me she didnt remember that happenening but again .. appologized anyways and i felt better.

However... my wife was now in depression mode .. and i was lifting out of it (no thnaks to my wife who has totally ignored me cuz i am apparently an [censored], which i probably was). And so for several days my wife ignored my needs (over 7 days actually). I tried to explain to her i needed a bit more sex to help relieve my stress but she refused due to her depression and state of withdrawl and ripped me a new one for "counting days since we last had sex (she has had a bit of an aversion to sex but doesnt want to do the aversion exercises and we are both very inexperienced believe it or not and our sex life is usually very vanilla or less).. she finally offered on a sunday morning but i declined because of the way she offered. It was in a reluctant way. (to this day we have not been intimate since about the first week or so of dec ... which is very difficult for me as im getting grumpier each passing day. Pathetic right?

Come monday morning at the beginning of last week i was checking over keylogs on the computer to monitor my daughters FB and i notice a name typed in one of the logs.. my wife had gone and looked at the guys FB page that she was in an EA with when we were having all our previous problems. I was triggered BIG time .. got anxiety ... became stressed again and so I phoned her up right away (i was at work) and blew a gasket on her. Told her how i felt about her looking up this other guy ... and she acted surprised and got mad at me for getting mad at her about it. She said she did it by mistake becasue she was bored and i should get over it. WTF? I told her i believe her (there was not other logs to indicate that she actualy contacted him, she just looked)

Now my wife is in a horrible state ... tells me she wished she never married me .. says since i have not been following MB for a while now and not meeting her needs thats shes not going to meet mine.. and we seem to be at a stale mate. Since all this I am trying to just find happiness somewhere to keep the emotional state of the house in positive light since it seems that my emotional state controls the house.

Wow ... that was long winded ... and why i have not been around for a while.


Probably seems petty compared to several things going on here on this board but its where I am at right now and maybe i am just ranting to get it off my chest ...or maybe i really am an [censored] and need to be told so. Whatever it is i need to get back to how i was in November before all the crisis happened. I need to get my "i am the great catch" and fun and fantastic attitude back. My wife seems to think i tricked her somehow into thinking that things have gotten better since last year. Funny how 1 or 2 weeks of tough times can take away a whole year of greatness that we have had. Stupid triggers! Grrrrrr!

Opinions? MAybe i need a few 2x4's? not sure. I know i gotta stop lovebusting .. and clean my side of the street and its getting better... Maybe pray for peace in my home as christmas approaches. Satan is working overtime here as this all seemd to pop in out of no where.

MNG

edit detail
Posted By: armymama Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 12/22/12 01:39 AM
Ummmmm, how about back to basics? Increase your UA time. Use POJA. You already recognize that you both are lovebusting all over the place.

Don't sign up for things you don't want to be doing - watching nephew overnight, guilted into spending more money than you want to.

The holidays can be a very stressful time, especially when we lose sight of the "real reason for the season". Try simplifying, with the focus on each other.

AM

Posted By: mariposa06 Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 12/22/12 03:55 AM
I agree with Armymama. You both have stopped doing MB. You know doing MB is what makes a happy in love marriage so get back to it ASAP!
Posted By: LongWayFromHome Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 12/22/12 04:45 AM
The words "I need SF more often to relieve my stress" would be a big turn-off for many women. Women want to make love with their husbands when they feel bonded to them, not as a therapy for stress or out of obligation.

Agree with AM and MPto get back to the basics. You lead this by committing no lovebusters and going ahead and meeting your wife's ENs.

I've heard Dr. H. say that it's easy to bust up all the great feelings of being in love with a week of LBs and little UA time, along with neglect of ENs.

Remember "I would love it if..." when you would like SF. Make sure that you are first meeting her needs for intimate conversation and affection.

Too bad about the whole Christmas economics in the family. That makes it really hard for everyone to truly enjoy the real meaning of Christmas. Stick to your POJA, though. If the family gets nasty by gossiping about how you aren't "doing the right thing" by spending as much money as everyone else, perhaps it's time to find something else to do over the holiday.
Posted By: TheRoad Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 12/22/12 02:49 PM
How have you done MB? Forum, bookss, phone?

I think a phone call is needed to get the both of you on track.

To argue over santa claus vs st nick with Sm two years later unreal.

However to be mad at your wife for breaking NC on FB was dead on. Your repsonse to it was dead wrong.

Blowing up wife's phone while she is at work. Did you find evidence that wife was going to stop on the way home to get some milk and some bread and some OM?

Could of waited till after diner.

Do you have a key logger on the PC, seems like you should.
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 12/22/12 04:03 PM
@ armymama - yup u are right. We have lost sight of the basics in the turmiol. I mentioned it to my wife and she agrees also. I have been avoiding lovebusters for several days now and just hanging out with the kids while trying to make pleasant conversation and up my domestic support. We got a date planned to get out of the house which we haven't done in quite some time. As for doing things we don't wana do? We originally did want to then assumed after they changed the plans there was no overnite with our nephew. Our mistake. Lesson learned. I should have asked to confirm so I was not surprised.

@ mariposa - yup I agree. I'm in a better mind state and working on my wifes needs. She agreed to refill out the ENQ to see where we are at. So I will be a new start again as the new year approaches.

@ longwayfromhome - yeah after I reread my post I feel like even more of an [censored]. I figured by telling her that I was just being radicaly honest. It didn't help any that's for sure but I am past that now and really only want sf when my wife is enthusiastic. It was a selfish statment and I rralize it was a lovebuster for me to say it like that. I have since appologized to my wife for that and she has now appologized for her DJs.

We are trying to take christmas back and remove the commercialism that surrounds it and bring real meaning to it for its true reasons. Our external family members are maiking it difficult but we told them this year if they can't get along then don't show up (our family is broken up into little chunks from adultery early in my childhood and no one gets along)

@ theroad - we have pretty much everybook but SAA. We discussed just lastnight that we should reread HNHN again. So I am looking forward to that. Especially simce its the revised version we just got in the mail. (We r giving a copy of HNHN and LB to pretty much everyone this year for xmas).

About the santa / st nick thing. Yeah. I realized I had to talk to her about it because when it originally went down it was lighthearted and then a switch flicked inside of my step mom and she blew her top. I was very passive about it and tried to ignore how I felt when she told me to go F myself and internalized it. What I realized though this year is that movie would play iin my head every year since then but previously I didmt confront it in fear of my step moms reaction (she was care giving my younger one and was our only support for dates etc). So I confronted her this year. She sppologized not realizing she said it but believes me and we r moving on.

As for the OM issue. They never met... Ever.. It was only emotional. However it was a huge trigger for me and brought my mind state to as if it was happening again yesterday. I have a keylogger that we both know about that's been on my pc for over a year now. We both look at it. She didn't contact him this particular time and claims it was innocemt. I believe her as the keylogger showed me there was nothimg more than her looking at his fb page and then moved on. I over reacted when I got mad at her but she has now appologized and removed all men from her fb that's not family or a mutual friend. This OM was not on her FB but he was a friend of one of her other female friends she met in an online game years ago. So she removed her too so not to temp to look at OMs page again. I told her I appreciated that and thanked her.
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 12/23/12 04:30 PM
For the love of Pete, MNG... why did you bury the fact that she was looking up her AP under that huge pile of text?

That is hugely relevant to her behavior towards you. That is a freaking Day-1 recovery reset.

It is back to basics here; reestablish EPs, NO NIGHTS APART, 20+ hours a week of UA.

Your marriage CAN survive regular stress and dips into withdrawal if you apply the concepts, it will NOT survive withdrawal being accepted as an excuse to hit the crack pipe again.

I bet she was mad, getting caught...
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 12/23/12 04:35 PM
Also, did you know that if someone is BLOCKED on FB that they will not come up while you are logged in? And private pages show NOTHING if you aren't a friend.

Dude, don't minimize the danger or damage done by this situation. It hurt you, it damaged your marriage. It wasn't "just," or "only."
Posted By: armymama Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 12/24/12 01:41 PM
Originally Posted by HoldHerHand
Your marriage CAN survive regular stress and dips into withdrawal if you apply the concepts, it will NOT survive withdrawal being accepted as an excuse to hit the crack pipe again.

X2. If you have not thoroughly discussed this, you should. And you should both read "Surviving an Affair".


AM
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 12/24/12 05:17 PM
I appreciate the 2x4s and objective feedback .. I felt for the longest time that we were "fixed" only to be taken by surprise from this series of events that unfolded and I am shocked at how quickly they escalated and erased this fantastic year that went by. But I am also glad I have this place to talk to someone .. i had not spoken to anyone about these events other than my wife and well ... that was not going very well so i was internalizing it.

Originally Posted by HoldHerHand
For the love of Pete, MNG... why did you bury the fact that she was looking up her AP under that huge pile of text?

That is hugely relevant to her behavior towards you. That is a freaking Day-1 recovery reset.

I had it briefly mentioned because I dont know if it was a REAL EA or not (back when i started my thread before we both came on MB) ... Yeah .. she bashed me a bit and the guys would tell her what she wanted to hear, but never did i see her ever tell any of them ILU or that she wants to be with them .. meet etc. But she would DEF be further out of love from me after being validated by these other guys and I would always feel insecure and make it worse with my reactions.

I also didnt think much of it because her story was that she was looking up peoples babies on the net and the keylogs backed up that story as she had looked at many other previous baby pics of many different people before heading over to OMs page to see if she could see his. But his wall is blocked and so are his pics. But yes ... it brought me an eerie feeling of insecurity and I reacted to it very negatively instead of giving it rational thought and approaching it with respect. We both know of the keyloggers .. so I believe her when she says she didnt do it to intentionally hurt me. She can look at the logs on both our PCs just as easy as I can, so I am giving her the benefit of the doubt as she has given me no other reason to NOT believe her. It just happened at a bad time.

Another trigger happened also .. we recieved a christmas card from my wifes mother and her AP also. They are in fact married now and my step dad is dating and planning on marrying my mother in laws AP ex wife. ........that was fast .. wow.

@ armymomma We may just do that. My wife decided to delete everyone she feels I may have an issue with off her FB account. She did that without me asking. Tightened up her EPs.

We both agreed to get back to the basics, up our UA time (we started by reading the 3 policies again and it seemed to have new meaning this time for some reason) and reread the new version of HNHN and I will mention to my wife that we should possibly get SAA also and see what she says.

Again, I appreciate the objective feedback and 2x4's. For a while there i was loosing my sanity.

MNG

Edit: Merry Christmas! *cheers to everyone in hopes they have a safe and successful holiday filled with joy, fun, family and good times!"

Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 01/02/13 10:38 PM
Well .. things are going alot better especially since christmas is over. We managed to keep the "conversations" calm and even had a few moments of enjoyment as we hosted christmas dinner for our entire family.

I recognized one of my issues during this past turmoil. That is I am not honest about how i feel sometimes. I have a bad habit of not calling my wife out on the things that bug me .. rather I bring them up when my wife has an issue with me ... and throw back at her the things that have gone by that bugged me but never called her on. I hate rocking the boat.. and so I gotta get out of this habit.

The lovebusters my wife does to me I usually brush off (she swears frequently ... directly at me .. or indirectly and i get withdrawn quickly) I learned i have a high need for conversation as well as she does .. (caused by being raised by single mom?) My wife occasionally thinks I am the wife and shes the husband lol since some of my high needs are attributed to women... frown

This year our new years resolution is to be more honest about what bugs us and call it when we see it. My wife then said if we dont call it on the spot you cant bring it up later (enemies of conversation right?) So if my wife points out a lovebuster I did .. i cant throw back in her face something that bugged me last week that i didnt call her on. This is going to be a tough one for me for some reason. Any suggestions?

The lovebusters my wife said I have currently is

1. Nail biting ... (yuck i know)I quit for a while .. grow my nails out some and soon as I get stressed out BAM .. my nails are gone .. and i get hangnails like crazy! frown

2. Not emotionally honest 100% of the time.


I was glad to have a week after christmas to recover from the stress christmas created. We have spent the week together with the kids relaxing, reconnecting and catching up on our UA time. Its has helped ALOT. (back to basics right?) SO .. i gotta stop biting my nails .. and be honest more about the things that bug me about my wife and call her on them. I hesitate ... but I did it a few times already and got a positive response instead of the usual defensive response she usually gives me so thats a plus.

smile

Crazy how quickly you can fall back into old habits and lovbusters under stress. Crazy how You can go from hating each other (for a brief few days) back into intimacy again only after a week of reconnecting and re-establishing our MB plan.

MNG
Posted By: Letty Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 01/05/13 11:45 PM
hi mng. i'm going to avoid the recent FB/OM thing and let others with experience comment on that.

i just wanted to say that i've only read the most recent 50 posts on your thread, and it seems like the stress from your extended families cause a lot of tension between you and your w. have you had an O&H discussion about this and POJA'd some ideas?

i know you can choose your family like you can your friends, but you can choose when/how/if you engage with them. just food for thought from an outsider's perspective.
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 01/07/13 05:11 PM
Thanks Letty. Yes we have POJA'd the inlaws and such, however .. they just do as they please anyhow IE: show up unannounced, untactful conversations, if any of them have dirt on another they tell everyone etc. Its horrible. Often times things can be OK .. but occasionally the drama gets out of hand. I wish more of my family took on marriage builders .. but unfortunatley almost all of them are adulterers. SO .. we make little effort to interact with them since its usually unpleasant.

Most of my close family is chosen. The only blood relative i live close to is my dad .. and his common law wife (the source of 75% of the family drama currently). Everyone else was just sort of adopted over time. A majority of my blood relatives dont associate with me much because I live close to my dad and my family is in little chunks all over the place. No one gets along very well.

Actually this weekend my wife said to me (after PLENTY of UA time ) "You know hunny, if we can keep the good vibes going like they are currently (meaning no love busters coupled with meeting EN's as we have spent a TON of time together since christmas was over without the external family members around) I dont need anyone but you!" She says she is quickly falling back in love with me again. WOO HOO! And its been showing. smile smile smile Been lathered in love lately and feeling pretty good about life again.

My wife and I made a News years resolution to make 2013 better than 2012 .. even though 2012 was pretty darn good up til christmas. Next year Christmas will be great too as I think we fixed up our negative christmas neuro pathway triggers from this year.


P.S. I am SO glad christmas is over. Its like a breath of fresh air. Also .. as for the OM/FB thing ... I am pretty sure thats over now too. It was a momentary lapse of judgement. The guy has been blocked .. removed .. and locked out of my wifes FB account from every direction possible that FB can accomplish it from. My wife did all that on her own without me asking (she showed me after). SHe realized her error and has since appologized and I also appologized for my reaction to it. So we are moving forward is positive light.

MNG
Posted By: armymama Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 01/07/13 06:29 PM
Hey Nice Guy,

Thanks for the good report. It sounds as if you got everything back on track quickly.

Just a couple of thoughts.


You and W should be very aware that IF things get a little rough, she will be tempted to check in on OM.

Take a look at all the POJA information and be absolutely certain neither one of you is doing anything that is not with enthusiasm. No one is supposed to sacrifice anything in POJA. To do that, you both have to be radically honest.

I have read that some couples do an MB review at the beginning of every year. I think it is probably a good idea.

AM
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 01/07/13 07:26 PM
Absolutely Armymama

We have spent quite a bit of time these past few weeks catching up on UA time (reluctantly at first due to withdrawl feelings from Christmas drama fall out, but its getting easier again) and going over love busters .. and re did our ENQs .. we noticed we are a bit off again as we have not redone our ENQs for quite some time. In regards to the POJA .. thats exactly what we did ... went back over all the POJA stuff and realized we both were not being RH with each other and sacrificing and really without realizing it until it was too late.


Its scary how easy it is to lose sight of the MB stuff when your in the heat of emotional turmoil and how quickly it can escalate to withdrawl for the both of us. We had to make a conscious effort to STOP even though it felt more natural to stay withdrawn and allow our takers to drive us further apart. Its rediculas! I even said to my wife during one of our heated moments.

"hun, this is crazy .. how we can go form hardly keeping our hands off each other to such indifference in such a short amount of time!"

My wife agreed... then asked me to leave her alone for a bit to calm down. Then we re approached the subjects with a more neutral approach with the logical solutions of MB. Its seems really hard for my wife at times to be logical .. so its usually up to me to bring the realization to the table about waht part of MB we may be lacking in and how to address it and then let my wife stew on it for a bit (usually a day or so til she lightens up).

BUT .. so far so good. We are back on track .. hopefully anymore setbacks are resolved much quicker in the future. Sometimes I feel silly posting this stuff as it seems it should be second nature to me by now.. but the objective opinions of you guys bring it to clear light when the fog rolls in and things get out of hand.

Your insights and opinions and thoughts are MUCH appreciated.

MNG
Posted By: armymama Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 01/08/13 08:25 PM
The really great thing about MB is that if something goes amiss, there is a solution. It is always possible to re-visit the principles and see which one has fallen off a little.

Glad to hear things are so much better.

We really like you guys.

AM
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 01/09/13 08:37 PM
Originally Posted by armymama
Glad to hear things are so much better.

We really like you guys.

AM

Thanks! .. I appreciate that. I know I havent been contributing much lately ... so I appologize for that. Things are getting better by leaps and bounds (part of the reason i havent been posting much). As quickly as it got out of hand between us its coming back even faster.

My wife has that sparkle in her eyes again and is rewriting everything in positive light. Like none of December ever happened. smile

MNG
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 01/10/13 12:09 AM
Originally Posted by MrNiceGuy
...is rewriting everything in positive light. Like none of December ever happened. smile

MNG

Memories are reconstructed using cues from the present... so this isn't surprising.
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 02/04/13 04:53 PM
Well .. brief update .. Cant talk long as I am at work. I am currently separated from my wife. At my parents place temporary. I had a HUGE angry outburst and totally lost control of my self. The result was the cops got called on me (didnt actually hurt my wife but it scared her so bad). I have been asked to get anger management by my wife and even then shes not sure if I can be the man she needs me to be anymore. She doesnt want to do phone counselling with the harleys due to the fact that she feels that MB is not fully working for her or we cant seem to follow it and make each other safe in times when frusteration mounts up.

I am lost ... and feeling very alone .. and very desperate. My outburst was uncalled for and in the process my wife got accidently hurt (she cut her fingers on her key ring trying to snatch them away from me after i threw them when i got out my vehicle and retrieved them again and went to hand it to her)

NO excuse I know ... i can go into more details later. Wife is not sure how long she wants me away for. I feel like my entire life is crashing in before my eyes and I am being a self fulfilled prophecy and going to repeat what my dad did to us and what my wifes parents did to her.

MY wife also admitted she has some issues with controlling her disrespectful judgements and tones and her anger also, but whats me to put the first foot forward since I am scarier than she is when I lose my temper.

The sad part is i know WHAT I am supposed to do .. just not sure how to stop it once i get to that point. For the most part I cope with it trying to keep the peace ... but my self esteem has gone up alot lately and I am having a hard time with my wifes disrespect.

Feel free to ask any questions .. or give me any 2x4s...

p.s. I have been out of the house since friday and when people ask me whats going on my story gets back to my wife and bites me in the [censored] as she now feels I am trying to turn everyone agasint her. I dont feel thats the case .. but my perspective def paints it that way. This has been brewing since christmas... the tension is so thick you can cut it with a knife. Shes not in love .. I am not in love but I feel she has more power over the situation than I do. Cops told me the could of charged me for assault for throwing the keys and my wife getting cut... they even told me if i slam cupboards and doors i can be charged with mischief.

WTF is going on ...

I got an appotinment with a local counsellor as per my wifes request but shes right i need to get a grip on my temper when I feel provoked and disrespected. I should not let it get to me that bad and I cant seem to not let it in the moment.

MNG
Posted By: SugarCane Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 02/04/13 09:09 PM
I'm so sorry to hear about this, MNG.

Would you say that you and your wife are working towards a reconciliation? Has she established conditions for this to take place?

Have you suggested MB phone coaching to her?

What specific incident led to the angry outburst?
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 02/05/13 01:06 AM
Thanks SugarCane for your reply.

I hope we are working towards reconcilliation ... in my current situation Where I am staying .. i am being grilled for info while I ma there by my dad and step mom. Seems when i vent to them somehow the info is leaked back to my wife ... including maybe some stuff i shouldnt have said but spoke out of spite and hurt. Much of which is true .. but it still getting back to me and biting me in the [censored].

Her conditions are for me to get anger management and she stated the next time i lose my temper she is going to leave me forever. I feel so insecure. I dont know if i can promise that. ALso To have completed some or all of the counselling .. i have never cheated ... nor hit my wife .. but in the last two conflicts (which started from practicaly nothing but escelated into everything we have ever been mad at each other about) I have unintentionally hurt her. The first time we had a few drinks and we were horse playing around .. and i accidently hurt her hand ... sprained her thumb actually when i went to block her playful slap at me... she didnt respond but gave me this look .. like i had done it on purpose ... wouldnt respond to my questions ... and looked like she was going to pass out .. i got a bit worried .. and started to reach for her hand to see if she could move it and she got very verbally abusive. I reacted in kind ... (booze fueled obviously and its not like we drink that often) but anyhow .. i reacted in such a manner that i came across very disrespectful at first in her opinion ... i got her some ice after a few mean exchanged words .. and went to bed. The next morning we began to talk about the incidend from the night before .. and i was met with alot of blaming ... and alot of critisizim over my reactions. My wife told me to "get lost" so i went away. My daughter DD14 was asking whats up .. and i said to her your mom told me to F off. My wife started becoming irate that she did not say that .. and i explained to her that from my perspective get lost is the same as "f off" and she insisted its not and that talking like that to my dd14 is child abuse and she will not tolerate it.

I argued the point ... and asked her to look up the definition of both .. bad mistake.

Things calmed down for a few days (both of us in a state of withdrawl at this point) and my wife asked me to get anger maangement for my unloving and loud reactions.. so i agreed.

So i spent a few days looking up counsellors and trying to organize it to be convineinet for my wife to attend as well .. but she didnt feel she had any issues .. and it was all me .. all i could hear from her was her blaming. SO .. i went to work .. did some reasearch on my work PC .. an made a few calls. I got a reply back from one guy who is (in my opinion) too expensive ... my wife told me i was to only seek a male counselloer (trying to instill the MB rule no talking to opposite sex ppl about our marriage issues) and that really narrowed down the choices by 75% or more.

So ... my wife tells me "you have all day at work, find and go the the first person that will take you in to help you with your problems" well i felt offended by this statement but did as she asked. I was told I would get a call within 24- 48 hours to set up an appointment.

When i got home from work the day she asked me to have an appointemnt set up .. she picked me up form the transit station and as soon as i got in the truck i was faced with the question. "did you get that appointment set up yet?" I said .. nope ... (soon as i said nope i was interupted with much disrespect and was not able to complete what i had to say as i didnt have the answer she was looking for ... and i lost it. We had a yelling match in the cab of the truck of which i was tring to explain to her that these things dont just happen over night and to please give it a rest (in a not so respectful tone at this point as i was getting really mad by her disrespect) and so i said to her. "i cant take this anymore .. and got out of the truck took the keys from the ignigtion and threw them across the parking lot as i walked away from the truck.

What i failed to realize was .. the keys were not my keys. In my blind madness i thought they where mine. As soon as i noticed they where hers i went over and picked them up and started going back to the truck with them. As soon as i reached out to hand her the keys .. she quickly snatched them away form me before i had a chance to really let go. This resulted in her finger getting cut. She started screaming at me that i had cut her. I yelled back she cut herself by snatching the keys from me... and i walked away as she was telling me i had made my choice and all i had to do was ask her for a few more days in a respectful way and she would have been fine with that. Well as i said .. i never got that chance as i was interupted before i even finished speaking when i got into the truck.

SHe told me to go home ... pack my stuff .. and GTFO. I called home .. asked my daughter to dig out a suit case becasue mom just kicked me out .. and when i got home .. i packed my stuff ... kids crying and yelling at mom to give me a 2nd chance... me crying ... i left. My wife feels I am over the top abusive.And she fears me when I am mad. I have nver hit my wife ... but 1.5 years ago .. when we hit a low similar to this .. and my wife didnt want to give up the guys she was talking to on the net i threatened to kill my self (i actually got my guns out and amuntion). It was a huge mistake and my esteem was sooo low at the time and i felt soo insecure i didnt know what to do to make her stop hurting me .. A mistake I would never make again.. but she assumes I will stoop to that level again. I have never even so much as mentioned my guns in a tiff. They are locked up like our laws require them to be ... and that time my dad came and took my gun safe keys and ammo from me til the next hunting season.

So... 2 days later .. I am at my dads house ... working in his yard to pay my rent as he calls it. I am being bombarded by phone calls from all sorts of family. Whats going on .. etc etc ... Finally i cant stand being at my dads becasue they will not let up on the talk about what happened .. and i tell my wife I am coming home. I dont give her a choice.. with that she gets all worried that I am about to come over and make a huge scene and says to me in a text that i leave her no choice to call the cops.

A while passes ... and I am still working in my dads yard. I get a call .. i forgot to mention to my wife i had changed my mind i was too busy at dads. It was the cops ... they asked me where i was .. they wanted to talk to me. My wife told them about my past behaviours .. and they told her she has ground to charge me with assault for throwing her keys ... and cutting her hand. They told me i can not even so much as huff around the house and slam a cupboard or i can be charged with mischief. The cops also suggested That i get my guns removed so they are no longer an issue that can be used agasint me. This is the first time in my life i have ever had to deal with the cops where i was involved.

My wife admits that she has a few issues to deal with but that i have no right to get angry for any way she treats me .. and I am responsible for my reactions to whatever she does ... even if i feel she deserves it .. (she admits sometimes she does but i should control myself)

I am beside myself right now ... thinking WTF just happened ... it feels insane ... i feel blindsided ... i feel alone .. i feel insecure .. i feel so much anxiety over this im still in shock.

What should I do now? She wont listen to reason She DEF wont do MB phone coaching (i suggested that but she says we know it all but at this point she doesnt want to do it or meet my needs as i have offended her far too much for her to even bother anymore) ... however she did say if my counsellor wants to talk to her she will go in .. but feels i need to do the hard work here. I feel provoked ... tricked ... baited ... like somthing else is going on that I am not privy to.

Sorry for hte long post ... but I am still in shock .. and fear i am going to lose my kids and wife that i love so dearly. I acept all the blame in our phone calls .. but that doesnt seem to be good enough. Some ppl i talk to suggest i should just get ready to get on with my life that this is coming to an end... I dont want that ...but my fuse is so short with my wife .. as soon as i hear blame ... i get very defensive and cant even talk to her without losing my cool now.

Suggestions? sorry this is so long.

MNG
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 02/05/13 01:55 AM
You both have anger issues.
Posted By: SugarCane Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 02/05/13 08:25 AM
I only have a brief moment just now, but my suggestion is for you to read markos's threads and contact the same anger management specialist he used/uses. You should be looking for a behavioural therapist who will focus on your stopping the behaviour.

It may be true that your wife has just as bad an anger problem as you do, but you need to work on yourself even if she refuses to work on herself at the moment.

I hope you get more responses today.
Posted By: NYC_Runner Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 02/05/13 02:36 PM
From one 'nice guy' to another.... Hang in there!

I feel like your situation is similar to ours, which means I dont have as much advice, but you are definately not alone! So try and relax a little, and focus on what you need to get done.

My DW would do her best to provoke me, but now, I see what she is doing, escalating the tempers, and I break off the conversation to prevent another bad experience. Women seem to use words as their weapons.

I am also pursuing a counselor. It does take time. So in some respects... I have "put my relationship needs and expectations on hold" until I can fix some of her complaints. I've recognized that I am no longer that attractive 'nice guy' personality I once was, and am focused on rebuilding that.

My DW has plenty of LB but now I only gently let her know what I like and dont like without being judgemental. This is a real struggle for me to rethink my use of words and mental point of view to avoid my own LBs.

I am also more careful with what I share with my family. They will try and help, but DW sees this as painting her as the bad guy, when I play that part.I come here to vent when i have to. I will talk with them for babysitting help and explain how important it is to get UA alone time.

Based on my experience with gaming, i would bet $1 that she is chatting on-line too. Maybe somebody who doesnt argue and is a 'nice guy' like the one she used to know. You have to be nicer than that guy. Or she assumes you are chatting with women and she's p.o.ed at that.

My DW sees my 'nutty-ness' as a weakness, so I havent shared too much detail with her, but I do share with her the tips and methods I have read about. I want her to know I take it serious, and continuing to work on 'me'.

My $0.02
Posted By: MrAlias Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 02/05/13 03:27 PM
MNG,

The best I can offer you is a heavy load of 2x4s. In the 10 years Iļæ½ve been here those things have proven the hardest to hear ļæ½ but in the end the most important and the most beneficial.

So here goes ...

From my perspective it appears you say you own your brunt of the responsibility but still seem to cast blame on your W.

I read this long post and I see a lot of excuse making for your behavior. You have some horrible behaviors that have NO PLACE in a marriage ... I don't care what your spouse is like. Anger and disrespectful judgments begets more anger and DJs. Stop the current destructive ways you interact with people ... most specifically your W. Stop trying to retaliate for her poor behavior with even more poor behavior. Someone has to step up.

If you can do that then you can help change the dynamic in your R. You will learn how to calmly dissolve her anger or at least teach her, in a mature way, how that type of behavior wonļæ½t be tolerated.

You have to do this regardless of your R with your W. You cannot continue these behaviors and take them with you into another R should you divorce. Youļæ½ll still be the same guy with the same behaviors.

The goal of MB is to make your M change but you donļæ½t do that by changing the other person . NO, the goal is to make YOU change into the best marriage partner and the M can only grow and prosper from there.

I say get a full dose of introspection going and donļæ½t stop until your side of the street is immaculate. Once youļæ½ve done that you can discuss your Wļæ½s behavior from a position of strength.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 02/05/13 03:50 PM
Have you seen this?

Anger Management 101

Have you looked into AngerBusters?
Posted By: 1995droptopz Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 02/05/13 03:51 PM
I read your story and it feels like a lot of situations between my wife and I. We got to a point where we would start an argument about how I did XX and she would make a DJ and I would feel the need to make one back, and next thing you know doors are slammed, things are thrown, and we are in a terrible situation. While I never want to hurt her, we would let our anger get the best of us, and take it too far.

Since I cannot control her behavior, I have to control mine. When she says something disrespectful or has an AO, I take a breath and just apologize. There are times it is difficult because she will lecture me, but I have to refrain from trying to defend my behavior. There are times where I will just walk away and do something else for an hour. Or I will go for a 5 mile run to clear my head.

I recently read an article about how people with built up stress will overreact to minor situations. It made me think a lot about how I act in regards to road rage, or being angry at people in stores or restauraunts. I have made it a mission to stop being so angry. I feel that if I adapt this to my whole life, eventally it will become the habit to not react, instead of my bad habit of overreacting.
Posted By: NYC_Runner Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 02/05/13 04:32 PM
Yes. This is m h like what I have been doing. When I have time to take a break, I start to realize I've got my teeth clenched, my shoulders are locked in knots, and my legs stiff like I'm holding up a wall. It sounds so California metaphysical BS, but I focus on relaxing my mind, body and muscles. I am amazed how tense I find myself.

Now when DW is winding up, I recognize the tension forming and know to disarm the situation. This has been really helpful.
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 02/05/13 05:21 PM
Thanks for the responses. I got my counsellor appointment pushed ahead to today. My Supervisor told me to go get my life dealt with my job will be here when i get back.

Originally Posted by HoldHerHand
You both have anger issues.

I totally agree with this statement. Which is why I am putting the first foot forward to better myself. What I have realized is that over the years I have been MrComplacent and the peace keeper (hence how i came up with the user name MrNiceGuy).

For most of my marriage I feel that in these situations my adrenaline brings the fight or flight response (along with a ton of anxiety) and I would often just shut down and flee or go along with whatever my wife said and take the blame as she blasts me. She would rule over me with her emotional outbursts and ability to out argue me.

This last year that has gone by has been one of the best years of my life. I am alot more fit.. I have more self esteem than I have ever had in my life. I get treated with more respect in the outside world than I ever have before, even more so than how I feel I am treated at home. I get TONS of unwanted attention from women at work now that I never had before also (or maybe recognized). It makes me sad when they treat me nicer and more respectful than my wife does. I do my best to deflect it, but when i get home to my wife and I dont get the same treatment as i do at work.Its frusterates me alot.

What scares me now is .. with my new self esteem and confidence my response is no longer to flee and cower away from my wife or anything for that matter .. but now to fight back. I have never acted much this way before in all the years I have been with my wife.

My mother (who was a single mom my dad was not in the picture) treated me just as my wife does in these situations and I would always back down regardless if i felt I was in the wrong or not. My siblings are 10 years younger than me and I was placed in a position of "father figure" and given alot of responsibility to my brothers.

When I was bullied in school .. i had the same response as i learnt to deal with my mom ... flee ... and cower away from the many skater groups that felt the need to harass me (always in large groups they did that in).. i brought that exact response into my relationship when i started dating my wife at 15. I WAS MrNiceGuy... to a fault.

I am scared of my new self confidence.. its as if my mind is saying .. you have been treated with such disregard your entire life its time to stand up for yourself, why are you tolerating it. I am not sure how to control the new "fight" response.. I think thats the scary part and something i need to get under control.

Originally Posted by SugarCane
I only have a brief moment just now, but my suggestion is for you to read markos's threads and contact the same anger management specialist he used/uses. You should be looking for a behavioural therapist who will focus on your stopping the behaviour.

I will DEF look into markos thread .. thanks for the suggestion.

Originally Posted by NYC_Runner
I've recognized that I am no longer that attractive 'nice guy' personality I once was, and am focused on rebuilding that.

Yeah .. I noticed the same thing .. my wife said to me "Your not the guy I married! I don't even now you anymore!" and I believe that statement is true .. I am not the guy she married and I am having a hard time in the new me when it comes to these responses that are coming out in me.. which never really did before.

Originally Posted by MrAlias
MNG,

The best I can offer you is a heavy load of 2x4s.

That's ok .. I need them from an objective perspective. I really appreciated them.

I asked my wife to come here and post. She says shes not sure but will think about it. I hope she does.

Originally Posted by MrAlias
From my perspective it appears you say you own your brunt of the responsibility but still seem to cast blame on your W.

I read this long post and I see a lot of excuse making for your behavior. You have some horrible behaviors that have NO PLACE in a marriage ... I don't care what your spouse is like. Anger and disrespectful judgments begets more anger and DJs. Stop the current destructive ways you interact with people ... most specifically your W. Stop trying to retaliate for her poor behavior with even more poor behavior. Someone has to step up.

I agree .. I do have to step up. I was not always like this. This is all new really. I used to be able to walk away and in my mind she would win.. i would take the blame as she gave it to me and not see her make much effort to change herself. So i chalked it up to it being just me. I would apologize and pretty much beg for my wife's attention again and then fear if i ever didn't like what she did or does, I would get the same responses again from her and flee her outbursts or nagging and have it turned all into my fault again.. I would not often tell her when i thought she was being disrespectful or call her out on anything just to keep the peace.

Originally Posted by MrAlias
The goal of MB is to make your M change but you donļæ½t do that by changing the other person . NO, the goal is to make YOU change into the best marriage partner and the M can only grow and prosper from there.

I say get a full dose of introspection going and donļæ½t stop until your side of the street is immaculate. Once youļæ½ve done that you can discuss your Wļæ½s behavior from a position of strength.

Absolutely... I couldn't agree more.

Again .. I hope my wife comes here and explains things from her perspective. When I asked her to post here and she said she will think about it. She also said in a text to me when she replied "marriage builders is good advice, but hard work. I don't think either of us is capable of actually following through. Its easy for me to be professional to my co-workers when they piss me off.. but I can't imagine keeping it up all the time. Same for you. I just cant fathom you doing it either. Maybe for a time.."

I didn't reply..

Anyhow .. I must get some work done before my counsellor appointment today. Think he will allow me to record our convo on my smart phone for future reference? Or some kind of transcript? I want the new ... more self confident me to be able to properly handle my wife in her current state without putting blame and fueling the fire and have her gain her own introspection.

MNG

p.s. wow that was long .. >.< I will let you know later how counselling went.

Edit to add a detail and clean up some punctuation.
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 02/05/13 05:34 PM
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Have you seen this?

Anger Management 101

Have you looked into AngerBusters?

Thanks for that brain .. I will listen as soon as i get a chance.
Posted By: Jhamila Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 02/05/13 07:53 PM
MNG- Kudos to you: you are here getting advice.

From a woman's perspective, freshly separated from a husband who refused to protect her from his abuse and anger:

Men are SCARY when they are angry. They are much stronger, bigger, and more capable of harming - even killing - women. She is NEVER responsible for your reactions to ANYTHING. Until you understand that you - and you alone - are responsible for your abusive behavior, you will continue to abuse her.

Regardless of your childhood, self-esteem, or feelings: there is NO excuse to blow up at your wife.

My H continually blamed me for his abuse. Funny, he blamed everyone for everything wrong in his life. Personal responsibility should be your #1 goal right now. Entitlement and blame-shifting are the foundational attitudes that create abusive behavior.

Did you know the #1 cause of injury in women ages 15-44 is damage done by a male intimate partner? She has every reason to be afraid, to kick you out, and to protect herself from you.

If you choose not to protect your wife from yourself, you will lose everything. I wish my H had chosen to protect me: he didn't, he's even more belligerent than before, and we're divorcing.

You have a MUCH better chance than we did: you are actually posting here, being honest, and seeking help. It's not easy to see yourself as you really are (I don't like it either!) - but you will become great if you do. Good luck!

Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 02/06/13 02:42 PM
MrNG, if you truly owned your actions, you would understand fully why your wife feels unsafe around you, and be willing to give her the time she needs to feel safe again. I think the best thing you can do is to plan activities with your kids and invite her to join, like alcohol-free things out in public where you would control yourself better. If nothing else, you'll make some good last impressions of the happy family life for yourself, your wife, and your kids, in case you decide to reconcile later.
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 02/06/13 05:04 PM
Thanks everyone... I had a good convo with my wife last night. (first good convo and 2nd convo in 6 days) I also went to the counselling appointment..

Shes feeling alot better .. and I am in a better frame of mind. Our fight has done some more damage to our extended family as we sought support and spoke of our own perspectives .. time will fix that I am sure though.

My wife was disappointed with the cost of the counsellor that took me in and decided that we cant go to him long term. The first week would have cost us 600$ cad. My wife is also contemplating coming here more often to seek support in her perspective and to help with keeping marriage builders tools our top priority for recovery.

The counsellor was familiar with MB but did not use it. I didnt even see one book of it in his collection. I looked over his library and brought HNHN and LB with me to the appointment .. he seemed intrigued by it. He asked for all my background info .. including what brought me there in recent events. He felt I was not an angry person but had a hard time being emotionally honest and just let things build instead of dealing with them on the spot in a respectful way with my spouse and that it was a instinct or habit i have taught my self from child hood. Told me to be calm .. try and make any convos with my wife as pleasant as possible, to hold off on marriage talk unless she brings it up and if i felt like getting angry to just politely ask to stop talking and hang up til a later time. He said from there he would talk to her and get her perspective and background and then come up with a plan. I cringed when it was over as I paid 200$ for my first session (after taxes). That is not sustainable for us long term. MB is our plan .. we just need some additional tools to help us communicate in a respectful way when we are upset. I need to learn to not bottle up whats going on inside me

After my wife talked to me last night in a very respectable manner and let me speak (which felt like such a HUGE relief, even though I am not home yet).. she explained to me pretty much exactly what Zhamila said in her post above .. and the reason things went down as they did was she feared it would escalate beyond what it already had done. I dont blame her anymore. I can see and understand her reasoning. AFter all .. I am 6'2" and 185lbs (lost like 13lbs while separated in 6 days from all my anxiety over this situation so currently like 173lbs) and very muscular. So yeah .. Just hard to hear. I dont like it.. dont like what i can turn into.. but its a reality and i need to get it in check.

NewEveryDay .. i did that yup. Took my kids ice skating a few days after i separated with my wife over last weekend. WE had a blast. Kids wanted to question me about the situation .. but i asked them not to talk to me about it. I just told them I am working on doing the things moms asks .. and I will be home as soon as i can so lets just go have some fun. They know pretty much everything going on as they heard it they days leading up to the separation when we were fighting in our room, but I am sure they could still hear us and not to mention a bit of my bad frame of mind carried on into their presence not alot .. but enough that its something I dont want to ever happen again. I am damaged from my own childhood from the things i witnessed ( i guess that was part of my justification since im not holding my wife by the throat off the ground like my dad did when he was much younger) and so is my wife. She has her triggers .. I have mine. We have to learn to change them and over come them. This is the worst ever in 20 years i have been with my wife where i let my anger get the best of me. BOTH of us know really well how to get the other going. That has to stop also.

SO .. I am looking into my own anger management class .. going to listen to the clips today by Dr. Harley .. and call a different counsellor that my dads friend went to which is almost less than 1/2 of the cost .. just a bit more travel time. My wife even said I may be able to come home if i get all this set up. I am on it like white on rice.

I hope my wife comes here for some support also... her perspective is hers and I will not argue it nor post on her thread if and when she decides to make her post about her life issues.

Thanks for your support guys ..

MNG
Posted By: kilted_thrower Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 02/06/13 07:44 PM
You don't have to share anything with anyone other than you and your wife are working through issues.

My wife and I used to yell and scream at each other. Having confidence and not refusing to be disrespected has nothing to do with screaming, yelling, and throwing things. That's how teenagers, emotionally out of control, and immature people respond.

The better solution is to tell your wife calmly when she stays blowing up that you'd appreciate her not telling/raising her voice/being condescending/etc.

While you might feel anger toward her when she talks to you certain ways, you are 100% responsible for your actions and reactions.
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 02/06/13 08:09 PM
I agree kilted .. I am no saint and DEF have to get control of myself. As I said .. I realized I can be very scary. I am not happy with myself in that regard. I feel like a bit of a failure actually. This reaction has only happened like this less than I can count on one hand in my entire marriage... But none the less .. it happened .. I cant afford to have it happen again.
Posted By: 1995droptopz Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 02/06/13 08:32 PM
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Have you seen this?

Anger Management 101

Have you looked into AngerBusters?

I listened to these clips today, since I have some anger control issues myself. The key phrase I brought out of this was that it is nobody else's fault for your anger. People may cause your frustration, but they do not cause your reaction.
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 02/06/13 08:35 PM
yup I agree 1995droptopz .. ***EDIT***

The problem is .. i KNOW what I am supposed to do. IE: walk away .. count to 10 ... etc. But how do I STOP before it gets the best of me... how do i not get sucked in. THATS the issue. At least for me.
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 02/08/13 05:41 PM
Well .. good news. I am back home. My Parents were feeding my negative emotions while i was separated. Telling me things like "your wife has not been with anyone but you so maybe she is out exploring" and other horrible things such as this. I already have insecurity issues and felt that those insecurites where being exploited by my Dad and step mom while i stayed with them. I had to get out .. even if it meant getting my own place til my wife was comfortable for me to come home. It felt weird for me to come home and everyone that knows about what happened are treating me like a monster now. Like I am some villan .. going to shoot anyone at any moment. I never felt that way.. nor thought about it.

My wife and i sat down and had a heart to heart. We have agreed we both need help in this regard. We both need help to keep our AO's in check and we realized that there is too many things taking up too much of our time. We need more balance. WE focus too much on the kids and not enough on each other. Spin too many plates and care too much about what others think of us. We agreed to reorganize our time so things fit better to make our marriage work.

I listened to the clips with my wife last night .. i think we both took it to heart. I will be buying the GSR and both my wife and I will be using it to learn to relax under stress. I also got another counsellor appointment thats not so expensive and one that my wife is enthusiastic about. The man we will see has helped someone I know .. and 3 of his friends also. THat was very promising for us to know of 4 accounts of success with this man.

Please keep us in your prayers as we work towards being better parent figures and better marriage partners.

If you got anymore 2x4's for me .. i can accept them .. I failed to protect my wife from myself and I dont want it to happen again.


MNG (although my username is not so fitting anymore since I am no longer considered a nice guy from my actions as of late) *shrugs*

Posted By: MrAlias Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 02/08/13 06:22 PM
Those all sounds like very positive things MNG.

Any chance you and her will try to follow the MB plan? This counselor might help you with your reactions to each other but you still need a plan to recover.
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 02/08/13 06:32 PM
Oh we will DEF be following MB still .. we have just lost sight of what we are to be doing. We have begun to go over MB material again. ALot of our stresses come from not enough time together. I had mentioned it several times prior to this blow up and christmas but it seemed we always had excuses to not make time. Too tired ... etc. That ends now .. neither one of us can afford to let this happen again.

I pulled my youngest kid from his martial arts since that takes up alot of time 4x a week and its also his before and after school care and they dont give hime time to do his homework he is forced to do leadership and help train lower belt level kids in the even younger kids class and costing us a fortune. I was angry to find out that my son had asked to skip leadership to use his time to do homework only to be told he has to go teach the todlers and so as a result his homework has been slipping as he (in grade 3) often gets up to an hour or more of homework a night on top of his other activites.

My daughter may follow suit and leave the martial arts herself .. but I told her she doesnt have to, but we have to cut costs somewhere to pay for our counselling for the time being. Putting our marriage on the back burner is no longer acceptable. While its not perfect and its had tons of UPS over the past year .. recent events have made us realize its not as good as we need it to be yet.
Posted By: MrAlias Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 02/08/13 06:56 PM
Super. Good luck.
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 02/20/13 12:37 AM
Little update ... been to some anger counselling. MY wife has an appointment with a marital counsellor who agrees with MB and tells us to keep doing that.

My extended family is all chit chatting about my wife and I and our recent situation. Its come full circle like 3 or 4 times now from various people who we have not spoken to. That was a HUGE mistake on my part to disclose some of the info i did when i vented to my extended family after i was kicked out for my angry outburst that scared the daylights out of my wife (not like me at all and was way out of character for me so no wonder)

Also Dr.Harleys anger management 101 link was fantastic (thanks again Brain!). I have listened to it a few times.

Here is a great example how it has affected me already.

I was walking to my dads place (i was separated from my wife but had listened to the link brain gave me) and it was POURING rain .. i mean seriously pouring rain it was bouncing off the road as the drops were so huge.

There was a river flowing next to the curb of the road that was like 6 inches wide and almost 1/2 the height of the curb. I was approaching a crosswalk and this car goes by and just SOAKS me ... it literally went and soaked right into my backpack.. and my coat, my jeans, my sweater and my t-shirt shoes .. you name it. At that point .. i turned with a fit of rage towards the car and yelled at it with some obscene words,also would have thrown something if i had something in my hands as the frusteration mounted from the moment.

Took a deep breath and remembered what Dr.harley said "NO ONE MAKES YOU ANGRY" ... at that moment i realized i let me being soaked by the car make me angry. I recognized it, diffused it, and thought about Dr.harley and how i am going to get my wife to let me come home and carried on walking down the road with the thought and a prayer that "god, if it happened again I would not let it anger me like that. It was unacceptable."

Moments later .... *SPLASH* it happens again even more soaked now and worse splash than the first (gods funny way of testing me i guess).. but that time .. i didn't even feel angry i just sighed .. and carried on just thinking wow i didn't get angry that time but the first time i was furious! I was soaked .. and had about another 40 mins of walking to do (i hate buses so its my fault and i gave the only vehicle we had when i separated from my wife for that week to my wife)but i was actually proud i didn't let it anger me. Then out of the blue .. my dad drives by and picks me up (he was on his way home from work) Lucky me!

It was a light bulb moment for me thats for sure.

So glad to be home. A week away was SO scary .. i cant imagine ever losing my family I would be devastated. Not only that but after i got home my wife also appologized for her disrespect and rejection she had been displaying to me and agreed to also get some counselling to help her control her anger. ALso my kids have been alot more respectful since i have been home too ... its very refreshing.
Posted By: MrAlias Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 02/20/13 01:51 PM
That was a nice update MNG.

I hope you can keep the momentum going.

Question. If you're to keep doing the MB plan ... then why do you need this other counselor? Will he/she follow MB principals or merely do his/her own thing while asking you two to follow MB on your own?
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 02/20/13 03:11 PM
You're welcome and I'm glad you enjoyed it.

Good update. How's it been since you've been back?
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 02/20/13 05:16 PM
Originally Posted by MrAlias
That was a nice update MNG.

I hope you can keep the momentum going.

Question. If you're to keep doing the MB plan ... then why do you need this other counselor? Will he/she follow MB principals or merely do his/her own thing while asking you two to follow MB on your own?

Thats a good question. Originally it was my wife that asked ME to go get some counselling as it seemed I could not control my anger (my wife was beaten as a child by her grandmother who raised her).. so it was originally intended to be just anger management to help me control myself so i dont trigger my wife (although i didnt feel i needed it, I have only lost my temper about 2 or 3 times in my entire life. I just felt i needed my wife to stop hurting me and properly meet my needs when i often felt rejected and emotionally abused by her with her verbal assault that shes often not even aware of and I dont often call her out on to keep the peace, but of course no one makes me mad so I agreed to go).

I learned that I am not as emotionally honest as I would like to be so I am breaking the PORH by not expressing those things in a respectful way. I rather just let it build up and then when my wife is mad at me bring up all the things I am mad at her about at the same time. Bad choice!

The local community mental health resource center I found out had a person working in it that was part of my step moms adopted family (puke) and she ran the anger course. I didnt want my dirty laundry aired anymore than it already has so I opted out of that place and suggested I see an individual counsellor for it instead. That resulted in disliking one counsellor (the 200$ per hour one) and since that was not sustainable I took my dads friends suggestion and went to another and he was much easier (who saved his marriage) and didnt want to really dwell on the past too much, rather help me learn some techniques to stop the crazy cycle from brewing in my head.

It was during that session that the counsellor asked to see my wife as he feels that my anger was totally situational and that he figures that we will not have to be there any longer than my health insurance will cover or even less. I was surprised to hear that as my experience reading here and what counsellors tend to be like is to milk the client as long as they can and facilitate divorce.. it seems like thats not part of his agenda.

The other reason we are going is because my extended family feels we need to "learn the rules of engagement" as they have expressed that this last episode has really taken a toll on them (they have hardly been involved in our lives in the last year). So in a way we feel obligated to do so to show THEM we are doing something to prevent this in the future since they express very diligently that they feel MB is not working for us and often make fun of us when we use MB words to describe things.

MNG
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 02/20/13 06:11 PM
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
You're welcome and I'm glad you enjoyed it.

Good update. How's it been since you've been back?

Thanks!

Its been good for the most part. My wife and I are getting our time management going better. Made some progress on UA time and we are feeling like we are making progress feeling a little in love again. Had a heated talk a few nights ago about all that has conspired and i think my voice was raising and my wife gently told me i was so i stopped ... and shut up for a few moments and apologized.

However to add fuel to the already burning fire, my son has had an episode at school in which he told one of his teachers he wanted to kill himself YESTERDAY >.<.

He expressed this after one of the teachers gave him punishment for dancing in a sexually suggestive way during gym class where they follow a dance video. The teacher grabbed his arm and dragged him to the side of the gym and gave him a time out (it was really not intended to be sexual in nature he was rolling his hands over each other in the dance like he was peddling a bike with his hands but low in front of his privates and the video was telling them to do it over their heads). Lame I know.

I understand though as the school has had a very large increase of bad sexual behaviors with many students and the principal told us our son is not involved in that but they must be diligent about anything that's inappropriate in that nature. My son argued he was not being inappropriate or felt he was not and then he shut down and got upset as the teacher began to have an outburst (also the same time she grabbed his arm and dragged him to the side). When the teacher asked why he was crying that's when he told them. He got sent to the principals office and had to talk to a counsellor and Told them whats going on at home .. told them how he feels the other students are treating him and how he feels the teachers are often mean to him. We have had a few episodes of my sons outbursts in class over the past few years. He is very good with his school work but feels he must argue with the teachers if he doesn't think they are right and can usually out argue them and give very good reason for his thoughts and actions. He is very confident, uses his manners but often uses them with the wrong attitude or tone of voice but also he is very sensitive. He is always trying to help others, but also feels many students provoke him into an emotional outburst for entertainment value which then he gets busted for as the other kids then pretend it was all just my sons doing. He tries to explain his side but he has out argued so many teachers they have no patience for him anymore. My son has tried to appologize for his behaviors when he has calmed down (his own doing actually not prompted by us) but the teachers in question just glare at him and don't accept it (we have witnessed this reaction). He feels rejected by several teachers and many of the students. He says the kids ACT like his friends but then provoke him and then he is the one always getting in trouble because he is very vocal about his complaints.

The school has taken this threat of suicide to defcon 5 now because of the recent bullying suicide in our area and are now asking us to provide counselling for him. They sent us links to help him with anxiety and such and ask us to review the material with him and make reports on his progress to the school via email. They will be having regular counselling sessions about his progress now too. My son is a good boy ... the principal has told us this and so have many of the OTHER teachers who know him but dont deal with him in classes. I know it ... yes he can be a handful at times after all hes 8 and his energy levels are through the roof and he is smart as a whip.

Of course with the lack of support and betrayal from our extended family and all the events as of late .. he is DEF full of anxiety (poor little guy). I know i have an anxiety issue so I am actually glad to be doing the student counselling online stuff we were given as it may even help me.

It also seems alot of the teachers are bitter about their jobs. Recent job actions and strikes has cut their wages and school fundings. Every news letter from the school is always asking for money for something. The school has lost its spirit. When my daughter attended that same school it was up beat ... the teachers were all friendly and nice and generally in a good mood and things seemed to be running smooth. Now its been strike after strike .. and wages cuts .. I think they even lost paid summers. Its no wonder they don't have patience for my son when he is being sensitive. They are bitter about their jobs and take it out on the kids.

I feel very overwhelmed. My head is spinning... its like a big zit that has been brewing for a while now .. and its finally decided to pop and let out all the ugly stuff all at once.

Any suggestions would be appreciated. Sorry for the long posts .. i got tons of stuff to say. If you need any clarification plz ask. Work becons so I have to stop typing.

MNG
Posted By: Wonderingif Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 02/20/13 08:45 PM
I would consider homeschooling your son. He wouldn't have to put up with the attitudes of the other kids, and he'd be free to learn at his own pace and also be involved in things he particularly likes since he'd have more time to explore them. My son, for example, took ground school at age 15 and became a pilot at 17. Your son sounds like some of my kids. They are pretty intelligent but also very sensitive. My oldest son argues points w his professors in college and usually wins, but he didn't have to go through that at such a young age. As a counselor,'I've seen so many young boys, especially, labeled negatively when they were just smart, energetic BOYS! I find it heartbreaking.
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 02/20/13 09:20 PM
I dont know if i can home school my son. Both my wife and I work full time and my wife will not give up her job.

With all the school strikes etc .. my son did not have a proper report card up until recently. He is getting better with his work but his report cards keep getting worse. (we did get a general report write up to be considered report cards until the job action stuff was done). Most of his bad traits are the social aspect where his report card tells us he is doing bad as i described above and the recent events of his sensitivity. His academic side is fantastic.

I dont understand why he gets so much homework and how the teachers expect the parents to help the students with THAT MUCH every day. I am hoping his grade 4 teacher next year will be much better as his grade 2 teacher was awesome but she left the school. he is in grade 3 right now and it seems all the great teachers left the school .. gee .. wonder why. All thats left are a bunch of grumpy old bittys who flare up just as easy as my son does. Very unprofessional as far as im concerned. WE are in talks with the principal now every day. its draining and my son is FAR from being the worst behaved kid ... and in fact makes a great effort to make ammends for his sensistivity on his own only to be rejected when he tries.


MNG

Edit: i need a vacation.. one with the entire family so we can relax and recharge...lol
Posted By: Wonderingif Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 02/21/13 02:07 AM
There is always a way to homeschool. Maybe get more flexible jobs that allow you both to pitch in. It only takes a couple of hours per day of instruction time.
Posted By: Jhamila Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 02/21/13 11:35 AM
Thanks for the updates, MrNiceGuy! It sounds like you're making great progress and figuring things out.

I applaud you for getting counseling for your anger in addition to MB work. I am also thrilled that you really listened to your wife's perspective about your AO. Overcoming entitlement - the feeling that things "should" be different or more what you want them to be - is one key part of getting rid of abuse. Life is full of disappointments and frustration, and no one owes you anything. That walk in the rain was a very big step in the right direction...and when your father gave you a ride you received it as a gift - which is great! (rather than feeling like, FINALLY).

As to your children, I wonder how they would respond to a good listening ear? Sounds like they have lots of fears and frustrations right now: it's scary for kiddos to be around abuse and marital problems - they need some comfort and empathy. And I know the "episode" might seem like it's way in the past to you, but to them it's still there and so is the fear of their parents' separation. If you and your wife agree, perhaps you could sit them down together and listen/talk to them a bit - soothe their fears, comfort them.

I know you treasure your family - and as you grow more empathetic and see things from others' perspectives - your wife, your son, your daughter - they will begin to feel cared for...and their social and school issues will be much more manageable.

I'm impressed with your progress - great job!
Posted By: Jhamila Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 02/21/13 11:43 AM
Oh, just a note: an AO 'once in a while' is never acceptable. It's a pattern, not an isolated incident. Please never have another one. I only say this because you mentioned having 'only a few, years apart.'

...and the "I'm not as bad as other men who grab their wives by the throat" stuff - get rid of it. That's classic self-talk to justify your actions. All abusers say, "at least I didn't [fill in the blank]."

You're not a monster, just a guy with a 'life owes me' attitude. That's where the anger comes from. Eliminate the 'tude, and you'll eliminate all anger and abuse from your life.
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 02/21/13 06:15 PM
Thanks Zhamila... your insight is much appreciated.

I feel shamed for my previous actions. That in that state I could not protect my wife from myself. I never thought of myself as having anger issues.. but I do I guess and it does occur with a certain pattern. Just pent up ones that only surface when I am really under alot of stress or when the patern of our fears surface. Usually that pattern revolves around BOTH our fears. NO excuse though.. i dont want that to happen EVER again. I dont want my wife to fear me as my actions trigger her fears big time and vise versa. I want to be a safe haven for my wife. Someone she can lean on. The rock of the house for everyone.

In regards to my children. My daughter is fine .. she has no doubts about her home life. She speaks with a TON of confidence almost as if shes looking down on US as parents lol for our behavior. We talked to her and explained a bit about whats going on and shes all like "yeah dad .. you guys will be fine. I am not worried in the least."

In reagrds to my son. I had gone over some of the anxiety stuff with him at www.anxietybc.com as requested by his school counselor and principal. It helped me also! Its taken the recent events to realize i have not only an anger problem but an anxiety issue also. I always chalked it up to just being "stress" when i felt anxiety. My son never even understood it either until now also (which I am glad hes getting a jump on the recognition part of that so he doesnt let it get control of him).

WHen I got home yesterday after work I asked my son how his day went. He told me that everything was great except this one person in his class was poking him over and over again. This same person does this on a regular basis. HE told me he recognized his anxiety from our talks the night before and his self talk was turning negative.He said he kindly and respectfully asked his peer to please stop poking him becasue it was causing him to feel angry and frusterated and to please give him a moment to calm down. The peer said "ok im sorry" and backed off according to my son. I was so proud! AND told him so also.

My wife had her alone session with the pshycologist/family marital counselor and it seemed to go well .. my wife was all puffed up from crying i guess when she came out but she said it was the best "counselor" experience she has ever had. She had a different energy about her when she came out and in the way she was speaking.

Hopefully we can keep up this recovery momentum. Both my wife and I have alot of healing to do from past hurts so I am doing my best to be patient and supportive while I also learn where my anxiety is triggered. Which is also part of the reason i have never asked to move my thread into recovery area... even though my marriage never had any sort of PA but a mild un recognized event of an EA for both of us. I never felt we have recovered totally.. just kept learning very slowly. Its all coming to a head now. EVERYTHING is coming out. Its scary and good at the same time.

I think we are finally recovering and beginning the healing process from our pasts as we begin to face them head on.

As for our extended family. If they are not part of the solution then they are part of the problem. We will likely have to kick them off the bus since i feel they only want to hear of our problems (so they can gossip and say i told you so) and not our joys (they are never supportive when we share our happy moments with them.. its as if they are jealous since my wife and I are the longest lasting couple in either of our families and NO ONE is married but us.

MNG
Posted By: Jhamila Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 02/21/13 07:38 PM
What a great update on your son - wow! And you're working on it together, with is fantastic.

Glad your daughter is doing well and feeling secure - I enjoyed hearing her vote of confidence.

Also good to hear that you and your wife seem to be really learning from all of this, turning over all the stones, examining everything. What a wonderful partnership you are building.

Such good news - great job.

I think your insight about your family is spot-on. If they aren't helping you, you may want to surround yourself with pro-marriage people who will support your efforts - that's smart thinking.

Rooting for your family smile
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 02/28/13 05:56 PM
Bit of an update. Counselling is going great. We had our first session together. The counsellor would get me to ask my wife questions based on our issues and vise versa ... then let us chat it out a bit but he would interupt when he could feel that we were heading down the wrong path duting the convo and point out our flawed thinking to redirect the convo back to a state where we dont feel offended by each other. The way he is approaching the situation is very similar to MB ... we have homework now .. we are supposed to come up with some recreational activites we both enjoy and do one of them and bring our list next time. Great oppertunity to do the recreational inventory (again) and use that as our reference. He is keeping us both accountable in a respectable way.

My wife and I are also re organizing our life in such a manner that we can begin to put more focus on ourselves for a while. Things are beginning to lighten up .. and we are much more in control of our anxieties. Actually to tell you the truth I did not even realize i had an anxiety issue until this year. I see it .. and can now recognize it before i get carried away with it. Since i have taken the lead in that regard its also helped my wife recognize her own anxieties and we are both getting better at putting them to a stop when there is no real danger. Only precieved.

HOWEVER ... I am feeling a bit anxious about my daughter. She brought up to us last night that a boy in her school has asked her out to go ice skating .. She said to me that she wanted my approval of the date so she brought up all the details and answered all my questions. She told me that her peers asked her why she would even bother telling/asking us/me about it and figure she should just go do it and lie about it (they are all dating and not telling their parents) and her reply was because she didn't want to do anything i disapprove of or have to lie since our home operates on truth. I was really proud of her answer (and told her so) to them and rewarded her by telling her yes she can go (she could have just lied and gone behind our backs but instead trusted us enough to come talk about it and seek our approval). I am having a hard time though internally ...

How do you dads cope with letting your daughters go on dates? I mean .. i started dating my wife when she was 15 ... so the thoughts running through my mind are crazy .. my daughter has a MUCH better head on her shoulders than my wife did at her age ... and shes excellent at martial arts and is very capable in stopping whatever she doesnt want to happen lol (she can pretty much beat me up if she SERIOUSLY wanted to lol).. and an All A student. Takes no crap from anyone .. and shoots guns too. (most of her school is intimidated by her but in a good way they leave her alone lol) SO .. There is no reason not to trust her shes never given us a reason not to ... and talks to us all the time about the stuff going on in her life openly and honestly ... But I am still having a hard time with this.

Arghh!!!! >.< lol ...

MNG
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 02/28/13 07:22 PM
My daughter's first dates were group dates, so they aren't off on their own, would your daughter be open to that? And we would meet the boys first, that made it easier too.
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 03/01/13 12:14 AM
Yeah... it is a group date. But still doesnt make it feel any better. Especially since it feels like i was where she is not that long ago.

Probably a protective dad thing ... >.<
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 03/01/13 03:52 AM
MNG,


Dude, you know that teenage girls are just as bad as teenage boys, right?


I know, I know... it doesn't settle your mind on it.

However, a "date" in a fairly public place like an ice rink with scheduled drop-off and pick-up is probably a safe starter.

My own DD15 has been going rollerskating almost every weekend since the 6th grade, and I did the same starting in the 3rd grade.

Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 03/01/13 01:11 PM
Speak to the young man. Tell him your expectations and thoughts.

I have told this story before. Our two girls are fifteen months apart, so we had both of them at the dating stage simultaneously. Here was the deal:

When they were about to date a new boy, he had to have a sit-down with NG, in the family room. There I explained that I was entrusting him with a very precious item, and expected it to be returned in the same general condition. To make it crystal clear, I asked him, on that first date, if he were planning to have sexual activity of any kind with my daughter. When he (typically) sputtered "No!", I explained that that was good, because if he DID have sex with my daughter, I would hunt him down, wherever he tried to hide, and render him unable to have sex with any other father's child! I could understand the odd fifteen minute late return, etc, but no one could claim to engage in sexual activity as an accident. So, we would not have serious problems if he just kept this discussion in mind, indefinitely. I also told him if he decided some day, to attempt sexual congress with her, the honorable thing would be to bring it to a discussion with DD, Mrs NG, and myself, and we'd come to an agreement! (Surprisingly, that never happened!)

EVERY new boyfriend, until the girls each left for college...

And my son had his own set of rules.
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 03/01/13 05:25 PM
LOL.. @ NG .. that is hilarious. I thought about having a convo like that, and infact i will at one point. I have to be reasonable also. The way I look at it is ... my parents and my wifes parents tried their hardest to keep my wife and I apart. That only drive us together even more.

One thing my wife mentioned about her teenage years before i came along was her mom forced her to start taking birth control. My wife didnt want to. Once she was on it .. she figured to heck with it .. might as well make use of it so she got together with me! (mind you i was a gentleman and we didnt have any intercourse for well over a year into dating and i respected every boundry she had) .. but became pros at "everything else" lol. SO ... my wife had a discussion with DD15 about that and my daughter does not want birth control and told us if she felt like that may happen she would come ask us about it but until then she plans on not having intercourse for quite some time. My daughter told me at worst she will end up with her first kiss soon.

The bottom line is for us .. if my daughter wanted to do anything sexual with some other teenager she could have already. Shes very open with us and i respect that. She didnt have to tell us anything, but I am proud she feels comfortable to do so. (thats apparent because she tells us what her friends hide from their parents and doesnt want to disrespect us like that). I want to keep those lines of communication open with her and tread on this in such a manner that we dont ruin it. I would like to be able to keep her respect and also feel respected at the same time.

I have gotten about 100 NEW grey hairs on my balding head from this ... >.<

Btw my daughters facebook profile page is her holding a gun lol so many are intimidated by her and often mention that. I am also on her friends list and my profile pic has me and my daughter holding guns together sitting on a dead deer. haha!

Still doesnt feel any better.. but it could be worse.

>.<

MNG
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 03/01/13 05:44 PM
I have to be reasonable also.

I was always the height of reasonableness. I just never decided it was reasonable to countenance either 15, 16, 17 year old daughter getting plowed in some moron's backseat.

BTW: The trick is to have the discussion when the answer about sex is so obviously "No" that no momentum gets built up leading to the possibility that the answer is "You mean like LAST night?"
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 03/01/13 05:54 PM
Thanks NG, That seems reasonable. smile

I guess part of the problem for me was that I have been living with my wife since she was 17. We both moved into our first place before we graduated high school. Got after school jobs to pay rent.

>.<

I fear a bit that my daughter will follow our foot steps. I said this to her .. she said to me right after something along the lines of..

"Dad why would I do that .. so I can end up like you guys? with kids by 18? and NO life? Not likely. My goals in life are big and I have a long ways to go still so dont plan on me going anywhere anytime soon or making choices like you guys did. I plan on learning from your mistakes or at least the ones you tell me about. Besides .. how am i going to get a ranch and horses and property for you to move on to so I can take care of you guys and get your help on my ranch if I do that?"

I just tilted my head sideways a bit and looked at her after that with an intrigued expression on my face.

Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 03/07/13 08:15 PM
OK .. so my biofeedback machine came in the mail the other day (a GSR2). With it i realized that my tension is soo high! I start the machine and the setting is at just a tad over 2 after like 10mins or so im just over 3 but easily get distracted or thoughts pop into my mind and BOOM the pitch goes so high i cant even hear it anymore and have to readjust the senisitivity back down again and start over frown

MY wife tried it and it starts making noise around 3 for her where its 2 for me .. and she can go a bit higher ... but she also finds it difficult to bring the tone down. ANY bad thought that comes in almost right away sends the tone high again.

My son tried it and it has helped him realize just how anxious he really is... we are getting him to use it daily now after school ... just a few mins to help him recognize his state of mind and help him wind down.

Anyone have experience with GSR bio feedback? HOw long does it take to get to a point where i can turn the dial way up around 8 or 9?

MNG
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 03/11/13 11:26 PM
Small update .. I am currently feeling the backlash of putting my extended family in Plan B (it was DD's 15th Bday and she didnt want anyone to visit but instead wanted a quiet night with us and an expensive gourmet sushi dinner!). We are hearing negative rumors floating around also about how much of [censored] we are for cutting them out like that .. and they dont think they are abusive and we should get over it ... it kinda hurts .. but at the same time i feel alot better emotionally and am getting better at controlling my anxiety.

I never realized how close to insanity i function at until i got this GSR. I let my co-worker try my GSR and they managed to turn it up to 7 .. whereas I am still struggling with getting over 3. I was practicing my GSR the other day .. and as I calmed down and tried to bring the pitch down ... the next thing i remember its supper time. >.< i passed out trying to control the GSR sound pitch lol.

Anyhow .. not much of an update ... but wife and I are getting back into better UA time .. and making better use of it. My wife is happy with our progress .. and the psycologist is doing an amazing job. He has changed my wifes attitude quite a bit and also helped me se things in a different light with my wife. We will continue to see him for a bit longer.

MNG
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 03/12/13 03:47 AM
Don't contrast yourself to others on the biofeedback thing.

You do what you do.
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 03/12/13 04:18 PM
Originally Posted by HoldHerHand
Don't contrast yourself to others on the biofeedback thing.

You do what you do.

Oh .. i thought it was a measure of sorts of the level of anxiety/tension/arousal? (seems to increase in pitch with all 3)
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 03/12/13 04:33 PM
Originally Posted by MrNiceGuy
Originally Posted by HoldHerHand
Don't contrast yourself to others on the biofeedback thing.

You do what you do.

Oh .. i thought it was a measure of sorts of the level of anxiety/tension/arousal? (seems to increase in pitch with all 3)

And yet, you relaxed yourself so much that you nodded off.


Measure your progress as your progress, not your progress vs that of others. That's a path to self-defeat.
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 03/12/13 04:50 PM
I see.

Thanks for the 2x4 smile It was actually making me feel more anxious thinking how far i had to go if thats even a true measurement of my tension/anxiety. Was almost depressing, but seeing how happy my wife is with the progress makes me want to continue!

Its funny .. I will be sitting with the machine and my wife will come up to me and say "christmas" and the machine will spike up lol .. then she goes away again after i calm it down and says my step moms name and BOOM up it goes again. I ask her What are you doing? lol She says shes doing it to help me relax when thoughts of those particular events and people come to mind. To help me train my brain to relax with those thoughts.

However .. I am feeling a bit guilty for cutting out my extended family. We currently associate with very few people at all. Most of them still associate with my extended family and we are slowly cutting them off too because they are coming over and then going back to my dad and step mom and telling them whats going on at our place. Seems like all they want is to continue to talk about this and keep the drama going ... I dont understand why people cant just be themselves without getting involved in my family affairs and keep whatever they hear to themselves and not rush around with the gossip. ALL my extended family sucks ... not one of them is very supportive. ALWAYS tit for tat .. especially with my dad and his common-law wife of 20 years. Everything they do for anyone has a hidden agenda or hidden expectation.

frown I could go on about them but I will stop .. I am feeling sad about the lack of support my family gives my wife and I and having to push them off the bus.

MNG
Posted By: xcuseme Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 03/27/13 02:26 AM
Originally Posted by MrNiceGuy
However .. I am feeling a bit guilty for cutting out my extended family. We currently associate with very few people at all. Most of them still associate with my extended family and we are slowly cutting them off too because they are coming over and then going back to my dad and step mom and telling them whats going on at our place. Seems like all they want is to continue to talk about this and keep the drama going ... I dont understand why people cant just be themselves without getting involved in my family affairs and keep whatever they hear to themselves and not rush around with the gossip.

Do you have other friends to spend time with or friends from church? I've been thinking lately about how my wife and I have not really included (or had) many friends we associate with. I can see where that drama gets old quick.
I seem to do ok making friends, but my wife on the other hand doesn't put herself in situations where she can make friends.
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 03/27/13 09:41 PM
Originally Posted by xcuseme
Do you have other friends to spend time with or friends from church?

Not really .. nope ... we have one couple we hang out with on occasion but they are an hour away from us.

Things with my wife and I are not gong too well today. We will be seeing the psycologist tonight.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 03/28/13 12:12 AM
Originally Posted by MrNiceGuy
Originally Posted by xcuseme
Do you have other friends to spend time with or friends from church?

Not really .. nope ... we have one couple we hang out with on occasion but they are an hour away from us.

Things with my wife and I are not gong too well today. We will be seeing the psycologist tonight.
What's going on?
Posted By: markos Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 03/28/13 04:17 PM
MNG, we had to do a lot of that kind of cutting out for various reasons. Now a lot of it is being restored. In particular my parents were real jerks to Prisca, but I simply didn't know a lot about enforcing a boundary. Now that I do, and now that they have apologized and seem to be respecting us, Prisca's enthusiastic about us seeing them again. (And it's a lot more fun.)

Even beyond that, we started focusing a lot more on our immediate family and family time the last few years, and it has been good.
Posted By: markos Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 03/28/13 04:18 PM
Originally Posted by MrNiceGuy
Things with my wife and I are not gong too well today. We will be seeing the psycologist tonight.

I'm sorry to hear that, MNG. We still have our ups and downs. Usually in our case they are caused by reverting back to fighting (demands, disrespect, and anger). BUT, when those are eliminated, things start to get better.

Are you spending enjoyable time together?
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 04/03/13 08:41 PM
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Originally Posted by MrNiceGuy
Originally Posted by xcuseme
Do you have other friends to spend time with or friends from church?

Not really .. nope ... we have one couple we hang out with on occasion but they are an hour away from us.

Things with my wife and I are not gong too well today. We will be seeing the psycologist tonight.
What's going on?

It was a tough day/evening. I tried to approach my wife on the lack of SF as of late ... I was calm ... didnt yell (wife did)... and my wife took it as a personal attack. I tried to point out to her that all our UA time has 3 of the 4 ingredients on a consistant basis and was wondering what was the issue with no SF. The conversation was unpleasant to her and i said to her calmly "so now that your #1 need of conversation is not being met this ONE TIME very well because I am complaining about your neglect of my needs how does it feel to not have your needs met this one time?"

She then became hysterical ... saying that I was being mean on purpose and putting pressure on her for sex. I told her thats how i feel when we have great dates .. and everything but SF lands on the plate of our UA time consistantly and then you wonder why the next day im edgy or dont talk much. I told her That I am supposed to be emotionally honest and that I was expressing my complaint of her neglect to be honest with her .. and she didnt like it and said that me telling her those things is not being emotionally honest but cruel. I calmly walked away and let her deal with her own crying and whatever else was going on in her head. She was mad at me also for not being emotional.. thinking that becasue I had no emotion over the subject that it was part of my cruelty. I explained to her .. So you want me to go back to participating in the escelation? Or would you prefer I keep my emotions in check like I am doing and tell you these things calmly? She had no reply.

During our "talk" (i talked .. my wife yelled and cried)My wife said shes really in love with me and how can I hurt her so much by bringing this stuff up.. I said to her "Of course your in love with me because 99% of the time .. i am meeting your needs and you take it for granted and that your feelings for me are directly related to how i treat you .. and my feelings for you are directly related to how you treat me" So all this time that I meet your needs but you ignore mine for weeks .. im rewarding your bad behaviour by being nice to you while you neglect me. I said also "Thats like giving our son a cookie for coloring on the walls, why would I reward his bad behaviour?" I also told her "calmly" I am no longer in love with you my love bank balance is so low that I had no interest anymore in making good conversation or affection .. or doing anything recreational with her and I wont be doing ANYTHING i dont want to do anymore. (I had been doing all sorts of things for her approval just for her to take me for granted and not get that approval). I asked my wife after she calmed down a bit ... how about you do a Plan A on me for a change im tired of trying so hard to only get rejected or ignored .. or told to not "pressure" her. I then asked her How am I supposed to bring up these issues of unmet needs when any mention of my needs is pressure? What If I dont want to meet your needs anymore and I dont want you to pressure me to talk to you? How would you go about getting your need for conversation met if I dont want you to pressure me about it and I just want to sit and do nothing from now on instead of rubbing your back every night .. and showering you with meeting your needs every day that you seem to take for granted?

After that we went to the psycologist the next day and her attitude changed because he helped my wife see my side .. and me see hers. The psycologist agreed .. I shouldnt do anything I dont want to do and neither should she... and frankly I didnt feel like doing anything anymore because my best efforts would not put my wife in any sort of mood for SF. I could be the best hubby for weeks .. and she would not even think of SF... but I am not to pressure her or even mention it or it became a heated discussion. Any kind of sex related talk ... would be putting this "pressure" on her. I would get anxiety just thinking about a way to bring it up with her while trying to operate under the "no pressure" rule my wife has said to me over and over again and that it will happen when it happens and I am just to be patient and stop being a horn dog.(tumble weeds roll by for several weeks with this "waiting") I would wait for her to initiate and get frusterated. I told her.. i cant wait for weeks for you to initiate SF so I guess I will just have to take it into my own hands since I cant "pressure" you or even mention it.. i need SF because it helps keep my head clear .. gives me confidence and an emotional connection to my wife.

Since that convo .. and the last visit to the psychologist ... my wife has really stepped up. She thanked me for not being emotional and not getting angry .. and that helped her feel safe ... and appologized for her outburst that night when i was calmly complaining my side of unmet needs and has been initiating very frequently and actually enjoying SF since then.

MNG
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 04/03/13 08:46 PM
Originally Posted by markos
MNG, we had to do a lot of that kind of cutting out for various reasons. Now a lot of it is being restored. In particular my parents were real jerks to Prisca, but I simply didn't know a lot about enforcing a boundary. Now that I do, and now that they have apologized and seem to be respecting us, Prisca's enthusiastic about us seeing them again. (And it's a lot more fun.)

Even beyond that, we started focusing a lot more on our immediate family and family time the last few years, and it has been good.

This part of our issues gives me anxiety .. on one hand I feel like the bad guy/guilty for kicking my extended family off the bus and they feel the same about us that we are being [censored].

But on the other hand I feel so much better for doing it and my anxiety is under much better control ... not on the edge as much anymore. .. The psychologist told me he figures they will never understand .. so no point in trying to explain it to them ... they will just want to defend themselves and make more a scene if we talk to them about it. I hope to have it restored eventually ... all the extended family (my dad and step mother in this case) are narcisissits.. and they can do no wrong .. its sad and I am sad about it to some degree.

MNG
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 04/03/13 10:44 PM
Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by MrNiceGuy
Things with my wife and I are not gong too well today. We will be seeing the psycologist tonight.

I'm sorry to hear that, MNG. We still have our ups and downs. Usually in our case they are caused by reverting back to fighting (demands, disrespect, and anger). BUT, when those are eliminated, things start to get better.

Are you spending enjoyable time together?

Yes ... our time has been enjoyable to some degree. Our UA time consists of tons of affection, TONS of talking, some recreation and very little SF.. pretty close to 15hrs a week. SF is usually duty SF where she usually says to me "i guess its been a while huh ... so go ahead" which is a total turn off. But usually by the time she brings it up like that, I am so desperate for that connection .. i take it .. and then feel guilty after and worse than not doing it.

This is not saying our SF is always duty related .. it CAN be good and fun for both of us .. and I am sure with all the stresses our life has taken in her global mind its probabaly the furthest thing from her mind. Probably need more healing still as she thinks she has an aversion to sex .. but doesnt want to follow Dr. Harleys aversion excercises (she doesnt feel its bad enough to do that) just wants me to be more patient.

But things are DEF getting better... one day at a time. Some days are down ..(like my post from the other week) but lately most days are up.

My son got a FANTASTIC report card.. for the first time ever. I was so proud I got a bit of a tear in my eye. He has gotten a grip on his anxiety and his teachers have reported he is much more stable emotionally than he has ever been this year. Probably now that I also have a grip on my anxiety .. he does too .. seems to go hand in hand .. since i FIRMLY believe children are products of their environment.

I am optimistic about the way we are heading in regards to our marriage .. and the results of our MCing. Thinking about how to deal with my extended family gives me anxiety.. Totally not looking forward to talking to them about recent events of pushing them off the bus when its time to restore those relationships. Although i hear through the grape vine they are being alot nicer to everyone else now. (other extended family members feel the same as we do about them .. but also contribute to the drama just as much .. and dont want to make a stand like we are).

My dad goes in for a hernia surgery (its the size of a red delicious apple) .. but since we are not talking to them right now .. im feeling an urge to initiate contact (guilt maybe?) .. but at the same time .. i dont want to, as it will resurface the drama again with them and give me anxiety. I hate this ...

MNG

How to deal with narcissists? lol ...
Posted By: LifetimeLearner Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 04/04/13 02:47 AM
Originally Posted by MrNiceGuy
How to deal with narcissists? lol ...

In very small doses - about 5 minutes per interaction, I'd say.

Posted By: Mrs_Recon6mo Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 04/04/13 11:00 AM
Deep down we know what is the right thing to do, even for a good quality SF. MB programme has made it quite cut and dry. But most of the time we just don't do the right thing, only rationalise our lack of sexual eagerness by saying we have an aversion, too much pressure, stressful life, "I don't have that need at all", etc, the list of excuses goes on.

Have you read the book by C. Terry Warner "Bonds that Make Us Free"? I love this book. And have you revisited and revised your EN questionnaires lately? Needs can change over time.

For us a good and enjoyable SF means we need to plan ahead a bit, we simply need to make sure, that we both have enough energy (a good night sleep, relaxed last evening when we do that in the morning, etc), and that we do not have much to do for the rest of the day (that we have not planned any social events for the rest of the day, that our teens are not at home or are in the middle of their 16 hours sleep, and that our to-do-list is short for that day, honestly - I get two aversions in one minute if that is a long one) and that we really-really have TIME for each other. It is completely doable, even with a stressful life wink




Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 04/04/13 04:24 PM
Originally Posted by LifetimeLearner
Originally Posted by MrNiceGuy
How to deal with narcissists? lol ...

In very small doses - about 5 minutes per interaction, I'd say.

Yeah ... its been nice with NO interaction the last few weeks. However .. it cant stay this way. Once my wife and I are in a stronger place and can talk of recent past events without our anxieties taking over our thoughts and projecting our defences on each other and getting easily offended in our conversations .. we will be much better able to handle our extended family in new ways.

However .. my dad DID call me today .. and I answered. HE was pleasant which was very nice for a change .. but he is also drugged up a bit from his surgery. It went well .. and he sounds alot more humble than I have ever heard him. My wife and I plan on going to see him in the hospital to show we care still .. but we refuse to visit them in their home. For now. But ONLY because of the EVIL step mother... I love my dad (even though hes as azz) I just wish he didnt have the woman he has.

MNG

Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 04/04/13 04:54 PM
Originally Posted by Mrs_Recon6mo
Deep down we know what is the right thing to do, even for a good quality SF. MB programme has made it quite cut and dry. But most of the time we just don't do the right thing, only rationalise our lack of sexual eagerness by saying we have an aversion, too much pressure, stressful life, "I don't have that need at all", etc, the list of excuses goes on.

Have you read the book by C. Terry Warner "Bonds that Make Us Free"? I love this book. And have you revisited and revised your EN questionnaires lately? Needs can change over time.

For us a good and enjoyable SF means we need to plan ahead a bit, we simply need to make sure, that we both have enough energy (a good night sleep, relaxed last evening when we do that in the morning, etc), and that we do not have much to do for the rest of the day (that we have not planned any social events for the rest of the day, that our teens are not at home or are in the middle of their 16 hours sleep, and that our to-do-list is short for that day, honestly - I get two aversions in one minute if that is a long one) and that we really-really have TIME for each other. It is completely doable, even with a stressful life wink

Thanks for your insight Mrs_recon6mo its really appreciated coming from a womans perspective.

I have not read that book that you suggested. But I will look into it for sure. In regards to ENQ .. I have suggested a Redo of it but my wife is not interested at this time. I started mine .. but realized when i did .. i was doing it when i was upset .. so it doesnt count. I scrapped it. I figured I would bring it up again when our spirits are high.

And about knowing what to do about making SF good .. your right .. we KNOW what to do .. its building the motivation to do it .. or the thought that the kids may hear ... etc .. our home is so busy its hard to get into the mood (for my wife anyhow .. im ready and willing in a heart beat). MOst of the time .. SF is on saturday mornings and sometimes sunday and during my wifes PMS week .. and Period week its often not at all .. so for 2 weeks I am generally ignored in that department .. but I would love to have it 1 or 2 times in the middle of the week also. To my wife .. thats unrealistic because she works .. and her job is more taxing than mine is (even tho she only works 3 full days and 1 part days with one full day off) .. so understandably so, she is tired. I work 5 days .. plus I am on call 24/7 but its an office job and my wife is a dental assistant under high demand then entire day ... and often doesnt get a lunch break. I help with the kids and chores in the evenings and give lots of affection and conversation when the kids go to bed (oldest one isn't out of our hair til around 10pm or so because of her martial arts class and needing a shower etc.

However ... we are getting better..Everyday I can feel it now. My wife gives me that look of love WAY more often lately. My own demeanor has been changing. Probably due to anxiety/anger management? I dont feel so ramped up... more relaxed... etc. Thoughts of feeling unloved by my wife (even without SF) are not longer a major thought racing in my mind. I guess things are unwinding now and emotions are settling and new boundries with extended familes have been put in place with new understanding (at least from our perspective and a little bit of the feedback we have heard from some who still talk to those we dont)

We are stronger every day now.

MNG
Posted By: Jhamila Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 04/05/13 12:09 AM
Hi MNG. I was thinking about the sex issue and remembered this article on the website:
Should the POJA be Violated When Trying to Meet Your Spouse's Emotional Needs?

Here's a quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Harley
When you find yourselves failing to meet each other's emotional needs, don't let another week go by without addressing this problem. Think of a plan that will lead to a solution. Remember that if you want your emotional needs met, your spouse must come to enjoy meeting those needs, and be rewarded for doing it. Don't get bogged down with the illusion that your spouse owes it to you, or that you shouldn't have to consider rewards. And also remember that if meeting your needs is at all unpleasant, it's the quickest way to squelch your spouse's willingness to meet them.

Perhaps if your wife read it, she'd be able to talk about her reluctance and might discuss a potential solution?
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 04/08/13 11:38 PM
OK .. first off .. this past weekend was ABSOLUTELY FANTASTIC! My wifes Best friend and her soon to be hubby took our kids all weekend (the ones an hour away) We had so much UA time .. we didnt know what to do with our selves. It was weird.

I said to my wife .. "Do you hear that?" *listens intently*

My wife says "Hear what?"

I grin and say "Exactly!" I then grabbed my wife and gave her a big hug in celebration of NO KIDS!

We soo needed this stress free weekend ... we have been living on the brink of insanity for SO long. Slept in ... lots of back rubs and SF .. eat out all weekend... went on walks ... did the yard work together.. cleaned up the house a bit (was easy when the dishes didnt need to be done every time we ate since we didnt use every dish in the house at every meal like usual lol). We got in TONs of conversation.. holding hands ... wow ... it was almost like we just started dating again. ALmost too good to be true! I dont remember the last time my wife and I had a 2 day break from the kids where we could just be a husband and wife. I felt spoilt and was sad for it to be over so soon... >.< I didnt want the kids to come home yet.



Thanks Z

My wife and I have read that article. My wife has no issues with meeting SF for me .. the problem comes when I am disappointed that it appears shes not as into it as I would like her to be and to me if she didnt orgasm i felt like a failure and it would turn into a fight (how stupid is that?). This has caused her to have an aversion of some kind to her own orgasm i guess or the thoughts of doing it to only not be into it and have me being upset because she was not feeling like it but knew I wanted it. Or if it didnt work out due to being irritated or something but not really recognizing it until the act of SF was engaged she would get anxiety thinking of telling me not to bother with her pleasure..

In her mind .. it was easier for her not have SF because shes doomed if she does or even doesnt. SO i think the subject creates anxiety. In fact I think alot of our issues come from anxiety actually. Its scary how controlling anxiety really is if you let it get the best of you when its unwarrented.

Obviously we have conditioned ourselves over time to create this cycle .. and the psychologist is helping us sort through that aspect. So my wife and I have a new rule ... when we engage in SF I am not to worry about her pleasure (for now) because she will indicate if shes interested and that she just likes it for the bonding it creates. My wife has no problem enjoying the act for the bonding experience ... but doesnt always want an orgasm. So its up to me to help her feel safe in that regard and this weekend was a HUGE step forward in that direction and that we wer able to POJA a solution to get us through for the time being.

Some of what I typed above is or may seemed messed up .. I feel weird taking about it actually .. is me wanting and focusing on my wifes pleasure during SF and being upset by it not happening crazy? I am not sure why I am offended by my wife not having an orgasm every time we engage in SF. We have been exploring that recently.. My wifes response to that is She feels she doesnt get to own it anymore if I am always pressureing her to have an orgasm during SF if she doesnt want it. I have read all sorts of stuff where the guy only cares about his SF and not hers rolling over and going to sleep etc) .. but its exact opposite here. I need and like mine .. but i get offended when my wife doesnt have hers? Weird ..

But whats really good now is my wife and her friend (female) have really renewed their friendship and my wifes friend is the exact opposite of her sexually and so they have been chatting about it and that connection with a "girl friend" shes getting is giving her a new perspective on it and her friends perspective is like mine but from a female point of view.

Things are looking up!
Posted By: MrAlias Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 04/09/13 01:05 PM
Quote
Some of what I typed above is or may seemed messed up .. I feel weird taking about it actually .. is me wanting and focusing on my wifes pleasure during SF and being upset by it not happening crazy? I am not sure why I am offended by my wife not having an orgasm every time we engage in SF. We have been exploring that recently.. My wifes response to that is She feels she doesnt get to own it anymore if I am always pressureing her to have an orgasm during SF if she doesnt want it. I have read all sorts of stuff where the guy only cares about his SF and not hers rolling over and going to sleep etc) .. but its exact opposite here. I need and like mine .. but i get offended when my wife doesnt have hers? Weird ..


MNG,
So you are working on letting that go right? I know to what you are referring to. I want the experience to be mutually satisfying but unfortunately the mindset I used to have was that I associated her being pleasured as the mutually satisfying part. Those thoughts I needed to let go of. It isnļæ½t a requirement for her to have her release in order for it to be satisfying to her. The mere fact she knows sheļæ½s pleasing me is that part that is satisfying for her ļæ½ and my need to push her to have MORE is disrespectful, full of what I want not what she wants.

Lately my wife has helped clue me in during our SF time together on what the goal is for our time but stating at the start ļæ½Tonight is about you.ļæ½. I love that she says it in a very sensual way. OH MY!!! Maybe you and Mrs. MNG can find something similar so you understand whatļæ½s on tap.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 04/09/13 01:09 PM
Mr NG, there's some really good stuff in the Willingness to Desire articles. I remember my body changed when I had kids and what used to work for me no longer did. But that's okay you two can figure out how to make it all simple and easy again.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 04/09/13 03:17 PM
There are six in this series. Have you seen them?

Willingness to Desire #1
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 04/09/13 04:08 PM
Thanks for the feed back. Yup I am working on the part of letting go of her pleasure. I'm def not a lazy lover and very concerned with my wifes fulfillment in that department. Our psychologist helped me see that part and really cleared that up on our last session. Part of the issue stemmed from my upbringing. My mom would tell me to always make sure your woman gets hers first! My mother treated me like I was the man of the house and I was expected to behave like a dad towards my 2 younger siblings, who we all have a different father (9 and 10 years younger). She would bring other men into our home (my mom was single all my childhood) and I would get attatched to them and then next thing I know they are gone never to be seen again. When I asked why and what happened. My mom would usually tell me it was because he was sexually selfish and didn't care about her needs. This confused me greatly. So men came and went like a revolving door with no concern for us kids. Then I would be left to help pick my mom back up and would be her emotional tampon. It sucked! So growing up I had this trained thought process that if my wife is not sexually satisfied she would throw me out or next me (after all that what mom constantly displayed). I never really digged into it until recently when the. Psychologist asked the right questions and made me explain my perspective. It was really an eye opener.

Its now very apparent that it was emotional abuse by my mom. Which really skewed my view on sf. I was basicly my moms husband in a weird twisted way and she used me to meet her needs in every aspect but sexual and disclosed her sexual issues to me when things didn't workout with the guy. I would feel bad for her.. Confused..and mourn the loss of the guy that I would get attatched to.I soo badly wanted a dad in my life (had a hard time with visitation with my real dad for a long time) How messed up is that? That's almost sexual abuse too the way my mom dumped her sexual issues on me at such an early age (11-15). I then met my wife at 16 and moved out with her at 17 into our own apartment.

In regards to the articles mentioned. Its caused a few heated discussions in the past. Its not that my wife is unwilling and she's tried to find her desire but she jusrt doesn't have it. My wife has told me many times that she just doesn't desire sf and doesn't often feel "horney". When we are engaging in sf it brings out her desire once things get going but if I am not doing the initiating she would and could just carry on for weeks without it. The problem came when those weeks would go by and my wife would tell me not to pressure her for sf (how can I initiate sf without some kind of pressure? As she states if I bring it up at all its pressure) so that's where I get stuck.

Dr.harley says I'm supposed to make it enjoyable and be the primary initiator since I have the highest need. But this no pressure echo in my head gives me anxiety thinking about how to achieve it. My wife often teLld me I meet all her needs and it just doesn't stir sexual emotion in her and its nothing to do with me. I then ask if I meet all your needs then how come you don't initiate sf if I am not supposed to pressure you?

But! Our psychologist has really helped us past this bit. We may need to take another look at those with a refreshed mind set. My wife said to me recently that she takes back the no pressure mantra she has echoed at me for years and wants me to initate more as long as I understand that sf for her is not always a release for her and she has a better understanding that sf for me is not just a physical release but gives me the same connected and emotional bond that pleasant conversation gives her. She's heard it and read it before (same with me actually) but having the psychologist ask us these questions and validating us both and helping us reaffirm that its normal has gone a long way to really change things for us. Its also helped to cut the toxic extended family out during this healing time also.

Mng

P.s. Maybe this is too much info .. Hopefully it helps future readers feel more comfortable being honest on the boards too. I don't often see ppl talk of the sexual details like this. So its kinda embarassing but feels good to talk about it here also.
Posted By: MrAlias Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 04/09/13 04:41 PM
Quote
P.s. Maybe this is too much info .. Hopefully it helps future readers feel more comfortable being honest on the boards too. I don't often see ppl talk of the sexual details like this. So its kinda embarassing but feels good to talk about it here also.


Your anonymous. It's all good. If you can't talk about it here ... where else could you? This is the only safe place to do so as we're all following the same principles to a wonderful M.

To your post about your Mom. I have the same concept as a child ... things my Mother said to me that impacted how I respond to my W and our SF issues. Boy I hope we don't screw our kids up like that.
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 04/09/13 05:02 PM
Originally Posted by MrAlias
To your post about your Mom. I have the same concept as a child ... things my Mother said to me that impacted how I respond to my W and our SF issues. Boy I hope we don't screw our kids up like that.

Yeah ... our kids think we are crazy because they are both well rounded and balanced and dont understand our perspective very well. My daughter is glad though that things are getting much much better lately. Shes very supportive and understanding. We dont give her personal details like my mom did to me. She has shown interest in wanting to talk about our problems when its very apparent my wife and I are not getting along, but we ask her to not ask us and that its inappropriate for us to talk about our personal problems with her. She then gives me this look and says "are they sexual problems?" I just give her a look back and tell her "I cant discuss it, its inappropriate". She then says .. "you guys need more time together and I will try my best to help you with that" She is always telling us to go out now .. or if its nice on the weekend takes her little brother to the park for a bit in the morning before we get up on the weekends (its a 5 min walk for our house) or has the kitchen tidy our the house tidy in general when we get home from work after she does her homework. Shes been doing alot of little things to take some stuff off our plates without us asking her to. SO blessed! We praise her for her efforts very often. She even sometimes has dinner on the go!

My DS8 on the other hand he wants to help also. However .. hes not as adept at the helpful things as my DD15. So we thank him for his desire to help .. and tell him the fact hes doing awesome in school .. and making excellent progress with his anxiety is already doing us a HUGE favor and we praise him for those things .. and also praise when he is respectful and kind .. and often he offers to clear the dinner table on his own now and keeps his room clean on his own now also. Wow .. he even vaccumes because he wants to help like his big sister does.

The progress as of late has been moving forward in leaps and bounds .. a hurdle in our MB journey that we were stuck at is finally having the road block removed.

Am I in recovery now ?? lol *shrugs*

MNG

Posted By: MrAlias Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 04/09/13 05:25 PM
Pretty cool stuff MNG. Pretty cool. cool
Posted By: LongWayFromHome Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 04/09/13 05:29 PM
Originally Posted by MrNiceGuy
Thanks for the feed back. Yup I am working on the part of letting go of her pleasure. I'm def not a lazy lover and very concerned with my wifes fulfillment in that department.

-----snip------

In regards to the articles mentioned. Its caused a few heated discussions in the past. Its not that my wife is unwilling and she's tried to find her desire but she jusrt doesn't have it. My wife has told me many times that she just doesn't desire sf and doesn't often feel "horney". When we are engaging in sf it brings out her desire once things get going but if I am not doing the initiating she would and could just carry on for weeks without it. The problem came when those weeks would go by and my wife would tell me not to pressure her for sf (how can I initiate sf without some kind of pressure? As she states if I bring it up at all its pressure) so that's where I get stuck.

Dr.harley says I'm supposed to make it enjoyable and be the primary initiator since I have the highest need. But this no pressure echo in my head gives me anxiety thinking about how to achieve it. My wife often teLld me I meet all her needs and it just doesn't stir sexual emotion in her and its nothing to do with me. I then ask if I meet all your needs then how come you don't initiate sf if I am not supposed to pressure you?

But! Our psychologist has really helped us past this bit. We may need to take another look at those with a refreshed mind set. My wife said to me recently that she takes back the no pressure mantra she has echoed at me for years and wants me to initate more as long as I understand that sf for her is not always a release for her and she has a better understanding that sf for me is not just a physical release but gives me the same connected and emotional bond that pleasant conversation gives her. She's heard it and read it before (same with me actually) but having the psychologist ask us these questions and validating us both and helping us reaffirm that its normal has gone a long way to really change things for us. Its also helped to cut the toxic extended family out during this healing time also.

Mng

P.s. Maybe this is too much info .. Hopefully it helps future readers feel more comfortable being honest on the boards too. I don't often see ppl talk of the sexual details like this. So its kinda embarassing but feels good to talk about it here also.

May I interject for a moment here?

What your wife is experiencing sexually is really quite normal, even for a woman in love. Over the years, there is a natural loss of testosterone in women, and women have much less than men to start with. Testosterone is what lights the fire, so to speak.

I've heard Dr. Harley say that a woman in her child-bearing years would probably feel that kind of physical desire for sex maybe once or twice a month. Obviously, that's not going to work for most healthy men, and this is where being in love with your husband helps.

When a woman is in love, as your wife seems to be with you, she does WANT to meet that need, but it's more of an emotional connection she is desiring. She also wants to make her man happy and at the same time to enjoy SF for herself, not necessarily always experiencing satisfaction the way a man has a need to. (trying to be politically and all correct.)

In the SF chapter of HNHN, Dr. Harley says that it's important for a man to not pressure his wife to have an O, because it's not always going to happen for her and she often feels very satisfied without going for it. So it's important not to place this expectation on her.

It's important for the husband to make sure he allows enough time for the O to happen but at the same time not stretching it out too long and making her feel as though she has to "perform" each time.

What we do is schedule it a few times a week. That way H doesn't have to wonder when the next time will be; we both know. I know that I am in charge of my own SF satisfaction and H knows his job is to make sure he allows time for it happen. If it's not going to happen for me, I let him know and he proceeds.
Posted By: MrAlias Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 04/09/13 05:49 PM
Quote
What we do is schedule it a few times a week. That way H doesn't have to wonder when the next time will be; we both know. I know that I am in charge of my own SF satisfaction and H knows his job is to make sure he allows time for it happen. If it's not going to happen for me, I let him know and he proceeds.


Very good points LongWay.

My W let's me know in her own way as well.
Posted By: Wow777 Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 04/09/13 06:03 PM
Did you say that your kids vaccum? Is that on the site here, somewhere? Where can I read how to get them to do that. I NEED TO KNOW.... Sorry, but I'm a little jealous
Posted By: xcuseme Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 04/09/13 07:57 PM
Originally Posted by MrNiceGuy
In regards to the articles mentioned. Its caused a few heated discussions in the past. Its not that my wife is unwilling and she's tried to find her desire but she jusrt doesn't have it. My wife has told me many times that she just doesn't desire sf and doesn't often feel "horney". When we are engaging in sf it brings out her desire once things get going but if I am not doing the initiating she would and could just carry on for weeks without it. The problem came when those weeks would go by and my wife would tell me not to pressure her for sf (how can I initiate sf without some kind of pressure? As she states if I bring it up at all its pressure) so that's where I get stuck.

Dr.harley says I'm supposed to make it enjoyable and be the primary initiator since I have the highest need. But this no pressure echo in my head gives me anxiety thinking about how to achieve it. My wife often teLld me I meet all her needs and it just doesn't stir sexual emotion in her and its nothing to do with me. I then ask if I meet all your needs then how come you don't initiate sf if I am not supposed to pressure you?

But! Our psychologist has really helped us past this bit. We may need to take another look at those with a refreshed mind set. My wife said to me recently that she takes back the no pressure mantra she has echoed at me for years and wants me to initate more as long as I understand that sf for her is not always a release for her and she has a better understanding that sf for me is not just a physical release but gives me the same connected and emotional bond that pleasant conversation gives her. She's heard it and read it before (same with me actually) but having the psychologist ask us these questions and validating us both and helping us reaffirm that its normal has gone a long way to really change things for us. Its also helped to cut the toxic extended family out during this healing time also.

Mng

P.s. Maybe this is too much info .. Hopefully it helps future readers feel more comfortable being honest on the boards too. I don't often see ppl talk of the sexual details like this. So its kinda embarassing but feels good to talk about it here also.
I can relate to some of this and I think it's helpful to see that I am not the only one dealing with similar issues.

Currently my wife is not interested and is unwilling to participate in SF. Saying that she doesn't have the emotional feelings so she won't do it. I haven't much felt like I have wanted to go to work for the past couple of months but I'm still doing that every morning. I don't get it, but that's how it is.

Prior to the current 14 week dry spell we would go through this whole pressure cycle and it would cause problems because I was exactly how you describe - trying to back off the pressure, but at the same time with no pressure there is no SF.
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 04/09/13 09:04 PM
Originally Posted by LongWayFromHome
Originally Posted by MrNiceGuy
Thanks for the feed back. Yup I am working on the part of letting go of her pleasure. I'm def not a lazy lover and very concerned with my wifes fulfillment in that department.

-----snip------

In regards to the articles mentioned. Its caused a few heated discussions in the past. Its not that my wife is unwilling and she's tried to find her desire but she jusrt doesn't have it. My wife has told me many times that she just doesn't desire sf and doesn't often feel "horney". When we are engaging in sf it brings out her desire once things get going but if I am not doing the initiating she would and could just carry on for weeks without it. The problem came when those weeks would go by and my wife would tell me not to pressure her for sf (how can I initiate sf without some kind of pressure? As she states if I bring it up at all its pressure) so that's where I get stuck.

Dr.harley says I'm supposed to make it enjoyable and be the primary initiator since I have the highest need. But this no pressure echo in my head gives me anxiety thinking about how to achieve it. My wife often teLld me I meet all her needs and it just doesn't stir sexual emotion in her and its nothing to do with me. I then ask if I meet all your needs then how come you don't initiate sf if I am not supposed to pressure you?

But! Our psychologist has really helped us past this bit. We may need to take another look at those with a refreshed mind set. My wife said to me recently that she takes back the no pressure mantra she has echoed at me for years and wants me to initate more as long as I understand that sf for her is not always a release for her and she has a better understanding that sf for me is not just a physical release but gives me the same connected and emotional bond that pleasant conversation gives her. She's heard it and read it before (same with me actually) but having the psychologist ask us these questions and validating us both and helping us reaffirm that its normal has gone a long way to really change things for us. Its also helped to cut the toxic extended family out during this healing time also.

Mng

P.s. Maybe this is too much info .. Hopefully it helps future readers feel more comfortable being honest on the boards too. I don't often see ppl talk of the sexual details like this. So its kinda embarassing but feels good to talk about it here also.

May I interject for a moment here?

What your wife is experiencing sexually is really quite normal, even for a woman in love. Over the years, there is a natural loss of testosterone in women, and women have much less than men to start with. Testosterone is what lights the fire, so to speak.

I've heard Dr. Harley say that a woman in her child-bearing years would probably feel that kind of physical desire for sex maybe once or twice a month. Obviously, that's not going to work for most healthy men, and this is where being in love with your husband helps.

When a woman is in love, as your wife seems to be with you, she does WANT to meet that need, but it's more of an emotional connection she is desiring. She also wants to make her man happy and at the same time to enjoy SF for herself, not necessarily always experiencing satisfaction the way a man has a need to. (trying to be politically and all correct.)

In the SF chapter of HNHN, Dr. Harley says that it's important for a man to not pressure his wife to have an O, because it's not always going to happen for her and she often feels very satisfied without going for it. So it's important not to place this expectation on her.

It's important for the husband to make sure he allows enough time for the O to happen but at the same time not stretching it out too long and making her feel as though she has to "perform" each time.

What we do is schedule it a few times a week. That way H doesn't have to wonder when the next time will be; we both know. I know that I am in charge of my own SF satisfaction and H knows his job is to make sure he allows time for it happen. If it's not going to happen for me, I let him know and he proceeds.

Thanks for the insight. I am just realizing this and accepting this in recent months. I Always took it personally .. and always feared that if my performance wasnt good enough to get her over the edge so to speak that I was a failure or she was getting hers somewhere else or taking it into her own hands and not "saving it for me" to provide it for her to give her that same love bank deposit in the regard for SF. It as a blow to the ego. Everytime it happened like that .. I would be left feeling empty which was often.

This mentality was especially out standing after Reading Dr.Harley say that we should have no sexual experiences without each other. Dr. Harleys book didnt specify about the orgasm part .. just generalized it to SF. So I took it out of context i think and over thought about it. My wife would tell me that often times she wants it when I am not home and by the time the evening comes shes lost the thought or got so busy/tired so she would just take care of it because it was easier or she was bored. She would be willing for me .. and then when i asked her if she was interested in me providing a Big O (which I am VERY capable of helping her achieve no problem) she would tell me she took care of it herself already. This was very discouraging. And often repeated it self over and over again.. and each time I would get more and more discouraged to the point i wondered why we even bothered and this cycle created an aversion in my wife which we are finally coming to grips on.

My wife gets it now ... and we are DEF healing from our past crazy cycles that revolved around SF. My wife said to me recently that the only week she most likely wont be providing SF is her PMS week and when her period comes she said she begins to feel normal again and not some alien thats pissed off . SHe told me if I could make PMS week more pleasant for her emotionally and give her space to be the alien she would be more generous in the SF department all the other weeks. I jumped for joy with that ... she even said that to the psychologist.

So because my wife wants help to recognize her PMS week (sometimes is ok with me telling her and sometiems not but wants to be told anyhow if i am keeping track of it) I now try and predict her PMS week and have an alarm go off on my phone to remind me .. and I bring home a box of hedgehogs chocolates that day. I might be off by a day or so .. but my wife appreciates the sentiment and it brings humor to the suggestion of PMS starting... she cant get upset if i bring home chocolates! Right? :P

Edit to add .. that my wife has even told me when I tell her i DONT want it .. she then wants it for some reason. And this week .. (happens to be my wifes PMS week) with the expectation of no SF in my mind .. and the no mention of SF during PMS week .. shes finding that she actually wants it. Go figure. *shrugs*

If I am being too graphic .. let me know .. I dont think i have read any thread as in depth of details of sexual frusterations as mine. I have seen it generalized but not really addressed or spoken of in a manner like this.

MNG
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 04/09/13 09:22 PM
Originally Posted by Wow777
Did you say that your kids vaccum? Is that on the site here, somewhere? Where can I read how to get them to do that. I NEED TO KNOW.... Sorry, but I'm a little jealous
haha sorry .. we have talked at length with both our kids in age appropriate ways about some of the issues going on ... the kids know that the more they do on their own without us asking or expecting us .. they better rewards we give them for their efforts. More so lately and especially with my DD15. We treat them both almost like adults and in return they often act like them to some degree as their ages will let them. Of course there is alot of guidance also but our entire household has a core of truth and trust between the 4 of us and that has gone a long ways for them to talk to us and be open with us in truths (even if the truth gets them in trouble) .. and respect us as we respect their opinions and them as people .. and not just kids we control and tell what to do. We taught them that truth is always better than lies. We discipline when truth gets them in trouble and when we are lied to for trouble avoidance the penalty goes up. They have tested these waters a few times and now realize we deal with truth much easier and dont punish them for it.

So for them i think its just respect and love is the reasons they do the chores without asking as we have handled them in ways that allows them alot of freedom. More so with my DD15 than DS8 becasue well .. he is 8 and does act his age sometimes. smile

The Book His Needs her needs for parents helped us a bit with that also.
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 04/09/13 09:45 PM
Originally Posted by xcuseme
I can relate to some of this and I think it's helpful to see that I am not the only one dealing with similar issues.

Currently my wife is not interested and is unwilling to participate in SF. Saying that she doesn't have the emotional feelings so she won't do it. I haven't much felt like I have wanted to go to work for the past couple of months but I'm still doing that every morning. I don't get it, but that's how it is.

Prior to the current 14 week dry spell we would go through this whole pressure cycle and it would cause problems because I was exactly how you describe - trying to back off the pressure, but at the same time with no pressure there is no SF.

Well .. I will tell you whats changed our dynamic in that regard. I have killed my desperation for the most part. My wife can sense my agenda if all I am thinking about is getting laid. I have approached with an attitude of not really caring if SF occurs or not and its beginning to happen more! A good part of it is because I am acting in a way thats more appealing to my wife than I used to be many many months ago. I tease her some in a playful way .. and sometimes (depending on her mood) I treat her like shes a spoilt brat. But I do it in way that doesnt undermine her feelings. I am in the habit of asking her How she feels. Then inquiring on her response with more HOW questions. I try not to provide answers and fixes when she talks but rather listen and reword it back to her so she knows i heard it and try to be a bit unpredictable and a bit cocky in fun ways.(example I always take my shirt off to do the dishes and flex and stuff and tell her she should make a calendar of me doing the chores with my shirt off) When we talk .. I will touch her when i say certain words to emphasize them and when I am sitting on the couch pretending I interested in the TV (when my mind is really thinking about her as it often does) I will place my hand on her lap... snuggle a bit .. then retract and remove my hand and all touch. Next thing I know .. shes putting my hand back ... and kissing me. Go figure? lol .. its taken me quite a while to train myself to do these kinds of things and have them working consistantly. Everything used to be so cut and dry and boring ... I have been trying to be more fun to interact with and that goes a long ways after you display it and pass all the [censored] tests our wives give us when they want to see if the changes are real.

MNG
Posted By: xcuseme Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 04/12/13 04:09 PM
Originally Posted by MrNiceGuy
Well .. I will tell you whats changed our dynamic in that regard. I have killed my desperation for the most part. My wife can sense my agenda if all I am thinking about is getting laid.
I can relate to the wife sensing part - Even if I don't feel like I am showing anything on the outside, she can tell something is up. For me that was disappointment and frustration with no SF that she detected. That only led to more stress and fights and stuff. I also have tried the killing my desperation/not initiating, but for me so far it's just made me lonely.

Originally Posted by MrNiceGuy
I have approached with an attitude of not really caring if SF occurs or not and its beginning to happen more! A good part of it is because I am acting in a way thats more appealing to my wife than I used to be many many months ago. I tease her some in a playful way .. and sometimes (depending on her mood) I treat her like shes a spoilt brat. But I do it in way that doesnt undermine her feelings. I am in the habit of asking her How she feels. Then inquiring on her response with more HOW questions. I try not to provide answers and fixes when she talks but rather listen and reword it back to her so she knows i heard it and try to be a bit unpredictable and a bit cocky in fun ways.(example I always take my shirt off to do the dishes and flex and stuff and tell her she should make a calendar of me doing the chores with my shirt off)
Do you feel the not caring if SF happens attitude is more of the reason or your better interaction with her that's fueling the increase in SF? Im sure it's both, but have you talked about it? (not suggesting you should - I wouldn't rock that boat if I were you and actually getting SF)

Originally Posted by MrNiceGuy
When we talk .. I will touch her when i say certain words to emphasize them and when I am sitting on the couch pretending I interested in the TV (when my mind is really thinking about her as it often does) I will place my hand on her lap... snuggle a bit .. then retract and remove my hand and all touch. Next thing I know .. shes putting my hand back ... and kissing me. Go figure? lol .. its taken me quite a while to train myself to do these kinds of things and have them working consistantly. Everything used to be so cut and dry and boring ... I have been trying to be more fun to interact with and that goes a long ways after you display it and pass all the [censored] tests our wives give us when they want to see if the changes are real.
Good Stuff!
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 04/15/13 07:58 PM
Originally Posted by xcuseme
Do you feel the not caring if SF happens attitude is more of the reason or your better interaction with her that's fueling the increase in SF? Im sure it's both, but have you talked about it? (not suggesting you should - I wouldn't rock that boat if I were you and actually getting SF)

It was a combo of both. But mostly my inner self. My wife and I have talked about it several times. Infact controlling my anxiety has been huge contributer to more SF also.

I find that being so ramped up by anxiety causes me to seek SF alot more. More so for the physical release part. Almost like anxiety has me in a state of over stimulation .. and SF dials the volume down so to speak. But I had to stop seeking SF for the "fix" of my anxiety. Being less stimulated and able to recognize my own inner mind state has really helped in the "kill my desperation" aspect. Its really all in your head (or mine for that matter) in regards to the fact its almost like dog whispering. Your state of mind .. or the energy you give off. I found that if my affections were giving off a sexual undertone she would pick up on it right away .. this would give me anxiety and cause me to feel desperate. Basicly she could tell when my affections were sexually intended or not and if they had sexual intentions .. it would make her feel "pressured". So I try to make my interactions with her more FUN oriented and interesting. Play on her words a bit ... try and find something funny out of what she has said .. maybe show off to her a bit.Open ended questions about herself. You know .. dating and courting interactions.

I will quite often ask her how she is feeling and i use that to put together how to respond to her.

Whats really helped lately is NOT doing ANYTHING I dont want to do. So when i do something for my wife .. she is appreciating it more because she knows its because I wanted to do it and not that I am doing it to get her affections or SF. Or she can ask me politely and respectfully how I would feel about doing something for her .. instead of me trying to guess what she wants done.

In a nut shell ... its self respect without placing unwanted expectations on my wife. I am no longer seeking her approval or attention in ways that set off her alarm bells of "pressure". Its more covert now and she likes it that way.

Example: the other day my wife was telling me about her day in her dental office and how she had to clean up some stuff her dentist asked her to. I said to her .. "man .. you should come clean up some storage rooms in my office building!" She gave me this puzzled look like i was insane and said "Thats really odd that my mind (hers) went to the gutter before yours (mine) did. I was thinking more of the fact that they are secured areas where you (refering to me) only can get to ... why would you want to clean if I came to your work? lol" Then I was like .. "OHH .. your right ... geesh .. what was I thinking?" And seriously I was thinkig my wife could come do some work! lol .. and my wife was thinking kinky SF in a semi public place (where I only have keys to). I thought .. wow .. how come i didnt think of that first? and i kind questioned myself for a moment as to why.

With my anxiety under control (or far better than I used to be) .. I think about sex far less. And this puzzles my wife to the point she is doing more initiating. I am doing less chores (unless she respectuflly asks me or I ask if I can help with something) .. and spending more time with my kids .. and she is eating it up. She would rather do all the chores and have me take the kids away for a while.

And on the day I think her PMS starts (the week prior to her period) I buy her a box of her favorite chocolates to let her know .. i know... and its a bit of a joke now. She smiles at me and says "is it that time already? that went by fast"

*shrugs*
Posted By: kilted_thrower Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 04/16/13 01:11 PM
For what it's worth, sex where you can get caught I've found to be wayyyyy over rated when you're worried about getting caught. My wife, on the other hand, thinks that part of it is semi exciting.

I have a great story about my wife leading me inyo y parents laundry room while we were visiting on vacation. Dad is sleeping in the next room (and could wake up any second), mom was bound to be home at any second (the door she would enter into was the door to the laundry room), and there weren't any locks on the laundry room doors. One arm holding one door shut, a leg holding the other door shut, and I felt like a teenager all over again worried about being caught by my parents. Geez...I'll never do that again lol
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 04/16/13 03:27 PM
That's awesome kilted!

I'm not super keen on "chances of getting caught" but I am a commercial building manager and have keys and access to places in my buildings that no one else does with zero chance of getting caught.

My wife just found it strange and curious that my mind was not in the gutter and for once it was hers that was. Of course I immeditely changed my perspective and agreed and was all like "Yeah, hun that would be hot" . Its like geesh what was I thinking. Where my usual previous self would have gone to the gutter way before my wife.

Seems as our dynamic changes and we get our anxietys sorted out with the psychologst the pendulum in regards to sf is also changing. Things feel much more relaxed and not so amped up. I just hope I don't lose my drive for sf as my wifes picks up.

But the fact is. Anxiety in me is a huge turn off for my wife. I think it was a massive contributer to this "pressure" she would feel. She has her own also but it seems my mind state controls the majority of the households mood. *shrugs*

Mng
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 04/16/13 07:42 PM
You know .. Looking at the stuff I have said about doing less chores? I'm not really doing less.. Just doing things differently. What I take from that is my wifes needs have changed and mine has too (I asked her to fill out the ENQ but she doesn't seem interested yet)

So that (even though she's not fully aware of it) must be the on of the causes in her spike in interest. On top of killing my precieved past neediness that was screaming anxiety.

It might just be possible that we may have hit a new wave of balance in my marriage after all this upheaving lately. Whatever it is I hope to keep up this fantastic momentum we have in need meeting, ua time and family time in general. Also looking forward to a family get away for a week in july. 2013 has so far been really full of surprises for us and full of self discovery, awareness and enforcing our self respect in regards to our extended families.

Mng
Posted By: DarenTV Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 04/17/13 04:05 AM
Praying for you MrNiceGuy, I know it can happen, so easy over a period of time. Make sure you keep your head and heart calm. Be secure and be confident in your relationship with God and who He made you to be. There is a way to get your wife back and have her love you again, if there is any love in her.
My encouragement is make sure you get back in church.

My heart goes out and I am praying for you.

Daren.TV
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 04/18/13 09:07 PM
Originally Posted by DarenTV
Praying for you MrNiceGuy, I know it can happen, so easy over a period of time. Make sure you keep your head and heart calm. Be secure and be confident in your relationship with God and who He made you to be. There is a way to get your wife back and have her love you again, if there is any love in her.
My encouragement is make sure you get back in church.

My heart goes out and I am praying for you.

Daren.TV

Thanks for the encoragement DarenTV. You made an account just to post your encouragment? Maybe u know me? Hope all is well with you and yours. If your struggling in your own relationship please post your story so we can offer our support to you too.

Mng
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 06/10/13 08:18 PM
Well a little update if anyone is interested. Haven't really posted in several months.

Things between my wife and I have improved greatly. We have been seeing a psychologist who's been helping us with our anxiety and angry outbursts. (Mostly mine). And guidling us through our extended family drama (major cause of anxiety) and giving us tools and homework ideas to bring us back to ourselves. He had been fantastic and he upgraded us from once a week now to a follow up once a month. Wooots! He feels our recovery is moving along excellent. He validates both my wife and I and addreses our concerns very fairly. Every session we had we did together with radical honesty and managed to maintain respect and when we stepped out of line our psychologist would correct out cognitive thinking patterns before they got away on us and ramped up the anxiety to the boiling point. Thank good ness that doesn't happen anymore. We went over childhood stuff together and our insecurities and everything.

I have not had a single AO since the big one I last posted about and having control over my emotions and anxiety has really helped keep the "volume" turned down and a lot of the stuff the guy has spoken to us about has really had a huge impact on my wife in positive ways. My wife actually believes my feelings when I express them to her (she used to dismiss me a lot even when following mb) but I did that also in different ways. I feel like a totally different person now than I ever have. My wife also feels like a different person. We both have totally new outlooks on life.

SF is a lot easier to talk about now. Not perfect but my wife tells me she no longer (very often anymore except on PMS week) feels sexually pressured by me and is overcoming her aversion to SF that I have helped create since our children arrived and actually has been initiating intimacy quite often.

I feel so in love with my wife in the calmest possible manner. My wife has been so respectful.. Caring... And loving its like god gave me a new wife! These past few weeks I have gotten the look of love from my wife so often its unbelieveable. Being calm and almost free of unwanted anxiety feels soo amazing (for both of us since a lot of our insecurities have been dealt with). At one point before I was going to consider anti anxiety meds but our psychologist suggested no and same with anti depressant meds too. He said he could get us through it without the need for meds and he delivered!

I am in a new chapter in my life and it feels amazing. I'm a whole new me and so is my wife! The future can't stop us now! Muahahahahahhahaha!

Hopefully I can be of some help sometimes around here again.

MNG

Posted By: LongWayFromHome Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 06/10/13 08:40 PM
Thanks for the great update, MNG.

It really is amazing, isn't it, what happens when the love busters are eliminated. Then the deposits stay in the account and love has a chance to actually grow and breech the romantic love threshold.
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 06/10/13 09:11 PM
Oh yeah! For sure. Many of our lovebusters have been eliminated for sure. Far easier to work on being in love when your not exhausted from bailing the water leaking into the hull of the love boat!

One of the key ingredients that got this ball rolling in the right direction was radical honesty. (Psycologist didn't put it that way but we reapplied his tools to MB in the process). We were told to ask eachother how we felt everytime we interacted. Example: when we come home from work. Greet. Then instead of asking "how was your day" we were to ask "how are you feeling?" And be honest about it. Take inventory of the feelings and procede from there. This helped tremendously. If our feelings were bad and it (from our perspectives) was caused by our spouse we were to own our feelings and explain how they came to be that way with the most amount of respect we could drum up and not take offence for our spouse feeling certain ways that may or may not have been caused by each other. No more being offended (especially if its obvious it was not intentional) or disrespectful towards eachother. No more getting defensive or disrespectfully placing blame even if we feel the other deserves it. Serves no purpose.


This approach has really helped my wife hold shorter grudges and she feels much better understood (these types of questions meet her need for intimate convo!) and vise versa (really helped having the male psychologist there to better elaborate my side of things to my wife as he seemed to speak with authority to us both and my wife took to heart everything he said. It was like we were talking to a police officer or a judge lol.

I don't feel like my marriage is on life support any longer. Probably the first time ever actually. Even since all my prior posts where I thought things were amazing its even better now.

Anxiety I think is a big killer of marriages and society. Much of what people call "stress" is actually anxiety! If not properly taken care of and identified, man it does a lot of damage! I have never felt so normal in all my life (took a while tho)... Anxiety is sooooo draining you don't even really recognize that that's what's draining you. It drains adrenal glands. Its mentallly draining and it creates a negative feedback loop that constantly reinvents itself to stay in your head repeating negative movies and worries over and over again.

Anyways. I feel amazing and I feel like my marriage is in the best standing its ever been in since I found this place. Its been a long journey. Not as long and hard as some here (so I shouldn't complain because it could have been crap tons worse) but having the love bank holes all or mostly patched up makes working on marriage far easier.

MNG
Posted By: markos Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 06/11/13 03:07 AM
Sounds great, MNG!
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 06/11/13 04:58 PM
Great job Mr. and Mrs. NiceGuy. Thanks for the update.
Posted By: MrAlias Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 06/11/13 05:05 PM
That is great news MNG. Keep the ball rolling.
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 06/11/13 07:22 PM
Thanks guys. Much appreciated!
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 08/13/13 11:11 PM
Small update.. Recently since we have stopped all contact with my wifes mother due to her affair, she has been having her new church pastor call us up to throw scripture at us about forgivness etc. Says we should be phoning grandma and saying sorry and reconciling the relationship. This pastor argued for over 1.5 hours on the phone with my wife about this and it really tore up my wife. My wifes mother feels its all our fault and so does their pastor. He has called several times to get us to crack and let her back in our lives now that she is married to her new god sent husband after the breakdown of her other 20 year marriage and dragging us through the coals in the process.

What nerve of this pastor.. Who does he think he is? I'm pretty choked at this guy and my mother in laws attempt to covertly trick other people to do her bidding like this. How rude.

Grrrrrr

Other than that my wife and I are doing great. Infact we got a week off from our kids for the first time ever. Feels so weird to come home after work and not have to rush around and be responsible for 2 kids. We even went for a drive last night like teenagers up into the mountians to go 4x4ing and wait til the stars came out to watch the meteor shower last night. Seen one that lit up the sky pretty good and left a smoke trial behind it. My wife thought it was so romantic lol. Dr.harley was right. It gets easier as the kids get older. I can't wait for them to grow up and get out lol.


MNG
Posted By: optimism Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 08/14/13 11:27 AM
NMG,
great update. thank you.
I would like to have taken advantage of the meteor shower activity, but we live close to Boston, so would have to drive quite some time to really see anything well. As it is, when we go to New Hampshire the stars are incredible up there compared to this light-polluted sky. I'm glad you enjoyed it. It means a lot to your kids that you do stuff like that. Very important for their development.

It's remarkable that pastors, clergy, ministers, etc., adhere to such common, banal, pervading understanding of infidelity. But I suppose they are people too, and since it's not against the law to watch sit-coms and talk shows, they are subject to the same insidious poison that the rest of the world's influenes.

Unfortunate that MrsNG wrastled with this fellow for such a spell. She must have been exhausted! Perhaps from now on he can agree to disagree with you both; in the meantime, do you think he would be interested in coming here, or reading SAA? I know he was arguing forgiveness, but self-protection is a major component of that process; I wonder if he accepts that?

opt
Posted By: Enlightened_Ex Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 08/14/13 12:33 PM
I don't know how much you want to engage the pastor.

One and a half hours?

I think I would have told him, politely that you are aware of the scripture, and you would rather have him focus his efforts on ensuring the member of his flock knows how hurtful her affair was, instead of trying to spiritually bully and manipulate you into something you are not comfortable with.

One can forgive, and still not spend time with someone. You and your wife will heal on your timeline, not hers or the pastor's.

Originally Posted by MrNiceGuy
Small update.. Recently since we have stopped all contact with my wifes mother due to her affair, she has been having her new church pastor call us up to throw scripture at us about forgivness etc. Says we should be phoning grandma and saying sorry and reconciling the relationship. This pastor argued for over 1.5 hours on the phone with my wife about this and it really tore up my wife. My wifes mother feels its all our fault and so does their pastor. He has called several times to get us to crack and let her back in our lives now that she is married to her new god sent husband after the breakdown of her other 20 year marriage and dragging us through the coals in the process.

What nerve of this pastor.. Who does he think he is? I'm pretty choked at this guy and my mother in laws attempt to covertly trick other people to do her bidding like this. How rude.

Grrrrrr

Other than that my wife and I are doing great. Infact we got a week off from our kids for the first time ever. Feels so weird to come home after work and not have to rush around and be responsible for 2 kids. We even went for a drive last night like teenagers up into the mountians to go 4x4ing and wait til the stars came out to watch the meteor shower last night. Seen one that lit up the sky pretty good and left a smoke trial behind it. My wife thought it was so romantic lol. Dr.harley was right. It gets easier as the kids get older. I can't wait for them to grow up and get out lol.


MNG
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 08/14/13 05:51 PM
Originally Posted by optimism
NMG,
great update. thank you.
I would like to have taken advantage of the meteor shower activity, but we live close to Boston, so would have to drive quite some time to really see anything well. As it is, when we go to New Hampshire the stars are incredible up there compared to this light-polluted sky. I'm glad you enjoyed it. It means a lot to your kids that you do stuff like that. Very important for their development.

It's remarkable that pastors, clergy, ministers, etc., adhere to such common, banal, pervading understanding of infidelity. But I suppose they are people too, and since it's not against the law to watch sit-coms and talk shows, they are subject to the same insidious poison that the rest of the world's influenes.

Unfortunate that MrsNG wrastled with this fellow for such a spell. She must have been exhausted! Perhaps from now on he can agree to disagree with you both; in the meantime, do you think he would be interested in coming here, or reading SAA? I know he was arguing forgiveness, but self-protection is a major component of that process; I wonder if he accepts that?

opt

Thanks. Your right about it being important to get out and be a couple with my wife. My wife was very impressed with my driving ability as we took on some pretty rough roads that only a 4x4 could take on. Infact my wife wanted me to turn around as she was not sure if we would make it through some of the stuff we approached. I reassured her that I knew the trucks capablility and would not attempt to put our truck through if I felt I couldn't do it. We made it and she was so excited. Was very private too! smile

Yes my wife was exhausted after the convo with the pastor. She was in tears as she relived all the horrible moments and her horrible history with her mom to the pastor to try and get her point across to him that he was being manipulated by a master manipulator. Eventually I wrote a little note so my wife could read it that told her to tell the pastor that we are just not ready yet. My wife smiled and the pastor took that as an acceptable answer for now and that got my wife off the phone.

I don't think the pastor would come here. My wifes mom has slandered MB big time. Dispises it. So I'm sure she has expressed this to the pastor guy but its worth a mention next time he calls.
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 08/14/13 06:00 PM
Originally Posted by Enlightened_Ex
I don't know how much you want to engage the pastor.

One and a half hours?

I think I would have told him, politely that you are aware of the scripture, and you would rather have him focus his efforts on ensuring the member of his flock knows how hurtful her affair was, instead of trying to spiritually bully and manipulate you into something you are not comfortable with.

One can forgive, and still not spend time with someone. You and your wife will heal on your timeline, not hers or the pastor's.

Yeah .. I agree. They talked in circles many times over as he could not take no for an answer. My wife felt compelled to express her concern about contact with grandma and her past history with her. The pastor was dead set we needed to contact grandma until I finally told my wife in a note (she had a face full of tears at that point) to tell the pastor we were not ready for contact YET. The pastor told us he feels that the demise of her marriage was grandpas fault but never listened to grandpas side since this new pastor only knows grandma and her affairage partner because they left the church we exposed too and moved far away to another town and got married in another church. The pastor too claims that they are happy now and their relationship was god sent. I almost puked when I heard that...

My poor wife... That phone call brought all her hurts to the forfront. Including her childhood abandonment hurts from her mom. I wish I could take her pains away when I see her like that.
Posted By: MrAlias Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 08/15/13 12:14 PM
Quote
My poor wife... That phone call brought all her hurts to the forfront. Including her childhood abandonment hurts from her mom. I wish I could take her pains away when I see her like that.


You are my friend. By building this fantastic M your W has a great foundation to base her life on. And from that she gathers strength to endure some of life's horrible moments including things from the past.

So keep on keeping on.
Posted By: optimism Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 08/15/13 01:08 PM
MNG,
NG and I are reading "Boundaries" (I read it some time ago at the suggestion of someone here).
You know it's based on very Christian/Biblical principles and I believe it goes very much in line with MB concepts.

I kept thinking of this when you were talking about your wife's episode. Have you guys read it?

opt
Posted By: markos Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 08/15/13 05:32 PM
If the pastor ever calls again, I personally would tell him that I'm not looking for any advice in my personal relationships, and hang up if he keeps talking. smile

Trying to educate him is probably futile, not to mention draining.
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 08/06/14 10:25 PM
Update about myself and family.

Life is FANTASTIC. We are meeting eachothers needs often, spend copious amounts of ua time together (sometimes I feel bad for my kids because of it). We have cut out all the toxic people in our lives and trained the ones we wana keep around how to be more respectful towards us by being assertive towards them (if they make snide comments I will often agree and amplify the situation) and rewarding their behaviours by allowing them to visit when they talk right. Which is not often but they are learning haha.

Wifes mom is now out of our lives andm no longer an issue.

Kids are a lot more respectful and obedient now that their homelife is stable.

Haven't had an angry outburst or any Disrespectful judgements in almost a year. Neither of us. Wow.

Most of the time we can hardly keep our hands off eachother. Constant stream of affection/admiration and the "look".

What's changed though is my wife has asked that I take on a more leadership role in our family(was often passive and let her lead, which she never really wanted to begin with) and marriage and to be the badguy to outside influences when we don't want them and to step up and be more protective and be more of a positive source of energy but assertive when I need to be. In a way its like a captain and first officer roles, we both have the power she just wants me to do more steering of the ship and to make more decisions based on what I know of her and us. Part of this is to also help my wife by being the emotionally stable/lean on guy when things go amiss and handle her and the kids like any captain/leader would. Listen.. Be calm.. Make the rational decisions and plan dates for us to spend UA with etc.

Its been quite the process to get to this point but I don't think I have ever been happier in my life and reading back on it all seems so surreal. My wife can attest to that also. We are becoming the couple everyone hates haha.

This place has been a major blessing and helped us build a good foundation between my wife and I. Because of that I share it often. Infact, some I shared it with have come here and you guys helped them out too.

That said it didn't have everything I needed to fix me to be the man my wife needed me to be. It was a self discovery process of who I was and where I wanted to go in my marriage and in my own personal developement. Over a year of psycological counselling also helped me sort my head out and fix my anxiety issues along with my wifes which was also a large contributing factor in our differences and struggles. We are still learning (likely will forever) but it feels great to have this relationship momentum finally in the green... Finally feeling in love and feel loved.. Finally feeling like a happily married couple.

MNG
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: Feeling lost and withdrawn - 08/07/14 12:22 AM
That's great Sir.
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