The person I married was the most loving and lovable person I ever met. She had a childlike joy that was rare. She still has that rare quality, but sadly it is often hidden behind her depression and abuse.

I still love her deeply but looking back over the past few years I mostly remember lots of unhappiness on her part. Lots of yelling and lots of depression.

We have been married for close to a decade, she had her affair a couple of years ago and confessed it to me.

My experience is that no matter how hard I try, how many of her rules I follow, I am still not good enough.

But really I think the root of the matter is that she is just unhappy with her life; her self. And she projects her unhappiness onto me. As long as I am with her, then she cannot will not look at herself to make the real changes that need to be made.

At this point I believe that a formal separation (Plan B) is the right way to go but that seems like such a huge step towards divorce. Which is something that is off the table for me.

ugh.

Plan B is in order.

Instead of being a step towards divorce...it is most likely your best option for saving this marriage.

Stuffless, both you and your wife (hoping heart/toosadtosmile) seem to post very similarly. Each of you concentrates on what the other needs to change rather than on what you can change.

You mention your wife's depression and abuse. What about the part your parents have played in your marriage? What about the enormous debt that you have? I could go on. Might these issues factor in to your wife's happiness? There are a lot of variables at play.


Can you give an example of something that you tried to do but it wasn't good enough for your wife? Blanket statements are not helpful; they are just like your wife's "always" and "never". Specifics are much better. Specifics you can address.

Plan B is not a formal separation. It is much more than that. Plan B is used when a spouse is in an affair and refuses to leave the affair partner. The betrayed spouse cuts off all contact with the wayward spouse; important dealings are left to an intermediary. In your case the formal separation is just the first step to a divorce. That is not Plan B.

If a divorce is not what you want (and it doesn't seem to be what your wife wants either), rather than ask people here what they think you should do, have you given any thought to calling the Harleys?

You are right. I didn't realize this until you pointed it out. As I sit here thinking of additional ways that I can change, I cannot pinpoint any. (lame right?) My wife is very passionate about making our relationship better. It has been a consistent theme since we first married. It has been my experience that I have been 100% willing to mold and change to conform to her suggestions and wishes. I do not believe that she sees, or more accurately acknowledges the changes I have made, but I assure you that I have worked very hard at it.

I decided to separate a couple weeks ago when I found myself so bitter that I did not care anymore to try to change. I believe this attitude is poisonous to a healthy marriage.



Parents: My parents were in a bad situation (yes that they brought upon themselves). They were homeless, and both HH and I believed and agreed through MC that it was right to take them into our home. Going into it we knew that it was going to be a sacrifice and not a good situation. For at least the past year we have made all major decisions under the policy of joint agreement. No money or help has been given to my parents unless jointly agreed. I grew up with alcoholic parents, and only recently have I started to learn how much of a lasting effect that has had on me. I do have co-depedent tendencies that I try to keep in check. I believe that I am doing a decent job at it. For example, yesterday my father was put into jail as a result of a warrant on his record. He is still in jail today and I do not plan to bail him out. My heart goes out to him and I feel terrible for him, but I do not believe bailing him out right now is the right thing to do.

Debt: We have a lot of debt as compared to most people. (close to $500k - $200k of which is owed to the IRS) But related to our assets, our debt load is quite low. Last year we almost sold one of our businesses for 50x our total debt. I am a young entrepreneur and it is not uncommon for people on my business path to be asset rich, cash poor, and with a lot of debt. Obviously we did not have a lot of financial support from my parents while we were getting started in life. I chose to jump start my business career through debt. There was not a lot of other options and I don't think I would do it differently now.

Now I would never diminish the negative impact that this career path (and debt) has had on HH and our marriage. Divorce is very high amongst CEO's. HH is incredibly adept at handling financial pressure, probably more so than 99 out of 100 other wives would be. However, I know that the financial pressure has often times been too great for her. Our situation is scary; no other way to look at it, but it is a path that we both chose together. We both agreed that the potential for good that we could do with the money that we might earn was worth the sacrifice and risk.


I now usually work no more than 40 hours per week, but it wasn't always that way. Early in our marriage I often worked 80 plus hour weeks. I learned that working that much was not okay with HH. Recently we moved out of state to a situation where I worked from home, had no friends, (didn't even have a car). We went on a date pretty much every day. We did this in part because she felt I wasn't spending the time necessary on the relationship. Pretty much the only thing I did while living in this state was run most days and play basketball 1-2x per week. Those two, otherwise healthy activities became her obsession.


I don't know what the heck I am doing. I am very tenacious, but I needed to get out of the house. Our relationship has gotten so bad that every time I am around HH my back/shoulders tense up so bad that I am debilatated to the point that I cannot even work. When I am away for more than 12 hours, I am fine.

I have requested HH to set up MC with counselors of her choice. (she is unhappy with the last psychiatrist that we saw) I do not feel safe talking with her outside of that structured environment. She, so far, has been unwilling to do this.

As you have seen the drama unfold, that is precisely where we are at. Who knows if it is the best option for saving this marriage.

One of the big questions I ask myself right now is: Is HH unhappy because of me or my contributions to the relationship, or independently of me. In other words, if I was out of her life would she be happy/happier. If she would be happier if I left then am I holding marriage as a sacred cow. I believe we are here to serve God first. I wonder if we are serving him by staying in a marriage where we are both unhappy?

We did this thing, during our initial go at MC after DD, where the counselor asked us to rate our happiness on a 1-5 scale during every six month period of our marriage. HH's graph stayed in the 1 & 2 level throughout almost all of our marriage. (5 being the happiest)

What is the point if HH has never been happy?

$200,000. debt to the IRS???????? YIKES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Not lame. But not exactly insightful either.


Do you see a contradiction in terms here? How can something be both "right" and "a sacrifice and not a good situation"?


So, is this one way in which you have changed your behavior? Offering to use POJA with regard to your parents?


I think this is correct. In fact, I would say that it is in your best interest to stay away from your father altogether. The co-dependent tendencies, I believe, extend further than your father.


I'm not going to get into my own education here, other than to say that I enjoyed finance classes and did very well in them. Assets are one thing; liquid assets are another. "Almost" counts only in horseshoes and hand grenades. The situation you describe is perilous beyond belief. People in any "business path", whether they are CEOs, CFOs or UFOs who are asset rich, cash poor and with a lot of debt are one thing: vulnerable. And when you factor in the state of the economy currently....


And quite possibly both your futures.


She doesn't sound like she has handled it well to me. She's depressed, on medication, unhappy, and her marriage is unraveling. I truly feel that you are making light of a very serious situation.


Have you ever considered that risk taking is a form of addictive behavior?


So did I. It's an insane pace that most people can't keep up. It's good that you scaled back. Did HH notice that you made the change?


That no friends thing is a killer. Is this your current situation?


And how did you feel about it? Did you like this arrangement?


Meaning that she did not want you to do these things? The situation that you describe sounds kind of isolating for HH, where all she has is you.


Have you ever considered that we recreate the kind of relationships that we grew up with - even if those relationships were ultimately unsatisfactory?

Do you and HH have friends - good friends? Or are you focused solely on each other/your business? I am asking because I don't know and I may be misremembering some of her previous posts. There's a sense of isolation that comes through when she writes.

So I thought I should add an update, being Stuffless' wife.

If you are going to be rude, criticize, be verbally or emotionally abusive in your comment, you need not reply. I will disregard downputting comments.

Never having gone to even 7 or 8 consecutive counseling sessions, never having been able to work through the stuff on the table, Stuffless left me last November and has changed his status to single. He has decided to divorce me.

I think it is important to get to the root of what is going on in order to be able to counsel someone. I did not feel that this happened. Stuffless did not acknowledge what I shared at any point in time... he did not empathize, he did not receive what I shared. Many things he said were not true... but speculations not checked out with me. He wrote above that he took me out on dates every night. But he did not share my concern, which is that he was not present... he was not mentally present, emotionally available... Imagine going out on a date where the person will not reach out to you, will not connect with you emotionally. How do you address it with them? I tried many ways.

He has decided to move on... and spent more time in one-on-one counseling than he ever spent with me in counseling. My greatest hurt comes in never feeling received. If I could no longer handle working in his high stress field, that was not received. If his parents were hurtful to me, that was not received, when I said I could not take it any more. Instead... instead, he attacked me for my inability to be invinceable... and somewhere in all of this, his counselor never knew the better.

I understand pain, and I understand dynamics. I understand that each person interprets uniquely. I feel it is wrong for a counselor to merely encourage whatever a person feels inside, without striving for an objective picture. Rogerian counseling is limited... it has grave faults. Relationships can be redeemed, but not if people are unwilling to forgive. My husband claimed I would not forgive, but I did, and did again. I forgave over and over. He did not forgive. After the A, he never opened up to me again. I worked really hard, regained my integrity, but he never forgave me.

My husband is narcissistic, and I could never please him. I have been blamed for everything. I asked him to own his part, while I owned mine. And I did own mine. But the panic that you saw from me--- the panic for being blamed for that which I do not have power over, the decisions Stuffless made, their negative consequences, and to be blamed for things I did not control--- that is emotionally abusive, and because of my personality type, I tried to be perfect for him, because I am highly self-sacrificing.

There are elements that are totally ignored on MB, because the posters here are not qualified to diagnose them. The posters here cannot diagnose narcissism. They cannot adequately recognize abuse... One party can say they do this or that, and it is not the truth. There are many fogs. My husband is in a fog, he has avoidant personality disorder, and keeps people at bay. He kept me distant our entire marriage. There are multiple levels of abuse and neglect that existed in our relationship. And none of them ever got addressed. I shared openly my deep frustrations, and aired my thoughts.I was alone in this. My husband did not do the same. It was important for him to keep a mirror that reflected back to him what he wanted to see of himself.

Warning to those of you out there---- do no take everything MB posters say--- it is not an objective picture. I strongly believe that what MB posters wrote did damage to my marriage. Significant damage. I also believe that philosophies were espoused that encouraged divorce. That encouraged making excuses for leaving. Some posters were even verbally abusive enough to lash out and attack the marriage, to encourage my husband to leave. All I can say is shame on those who come to a Christianity-affiliated site and do anything but encourage reconciliation. Just because some don't believe it, doesn't mean God cannot redeem the impossible. He can. Those who do not have faith in him will never see that. When others are weak, they do not need to be discouraged and told to give up. The truth is that all have sinned---- to leave a partner for their mistakes only points the finger back to us. Who are we to act as God and tell another what is possible (to tell someone it is not possible).

My husband never had the support necessary to work through our problems to redeem our marriage. None of his friends supported him-- none are committed to marriage. His counselor did not. MB did not. The truth is, asking for perfection in marriage is a setup for failure-- no one is perfect. But instead of growing in love, learning how to forgive, how to submit one to another, how to give, serve, love... people divorce. They blame and judge the other and leave them. But they are the ones who gave up, who judged and cast the stones... I am talking about grace. Stone throwers are not grace-filled. And grace is anti-intuitive, thus why so many attack and explain why grace is never merited. And that is right--- grace is not merited, it is always a gift... that's why it is grace, that's why it is life giving... And divorce happens because of lack of grace...

Stuffless never even attempted to fulfill my ENs. He never read the MB books. If he had, they would have impacted him... but he did the same thing from the beginning (years ago), and then said, "I have done all I can" without even having read Harley's books. That is not doing everything. It is a pity that he wore himself out doing things that have never worked, and that he was never willing to learn the things that work, to implement them. I feel cheated in that. I feel deeply hurt that he would not do the work.

Now he has moved back to that other state, left our landlord high and dry, breaking the lease, left all the furniture there (our joint furniture), I'm living at home with my parents, and he has run away from everything, just as he did in our marriage, avoiding, avoiding, avoiding, and then telling me I'm the problem when I address it.

I matter enough that I deserve someone who will work on our marriage. I am worth the time, effort, tears. Finally, I know I am worth it. I thought I wasn't for the longest time, because he wouldn't do it. He wouldn't risk emotionally, while I risked everything, put myself out there, broke my back for us. I made many mistakes, but if he made less, it's because he did not risk.

I see things differently now. I understand things I didn't understand before. I struggle with OCD (obsessive complulsive disorder) and what happens when things get really stressful, I need to organize things and have things certain ways to feel safe. For a long time I told Stuffless that the stress level is too high, and I explained that things certain ways (under high stress) helped me deal better. He never showed any mercy, compassion understanding. He attacked me for my limitations. It hurt so bad to be put down because of who I am or my limitations. Yes, I have OCD, but it only comes out in high stress situations, and our marriage was very high stress, because H continually raised the risk level in business, with our finances, etc. He never respected how badly doing so would affect me, nor my requests that decisions be made differently to lower the stress level.

Stuffless was always good enough. He internalized anytime I said something he did caused me hurt and took that to mean me telling him he was a failure. I never did that, but he actually did use those words to refer to me. He told me I was a failure and a loser, many many times. He says he only did that when we were fighting, but to me it doesn't matter why--- it still hurt beyond words.

I felt like a cornered animal in this marriage. Often, stuffless would attack me, and point out all my faults. They often had to do with me not working in the field he wanted me to work in, and instead of accepting when I shared I couldn't handle the stress, he called me lazy.

I did have lots of joy, initially. He beat me down. He was never willing to stop the attacks. Even after he left me last November, we would meet, and he would attack me again, verbally. I believe change is possible, I always have, but he did not believe so, and nor was he ever able to see how he participated in this marriage, how he had ripped it down with his own hands.

I made of mess of things too, a big mess, which I deeply regret. I have been fighting to become a person I admire, who handles life differently. It is deeply hurtful that my husband was not willing to do the work on himself, on us, and on his heart.

I am deeply grieving losing him.

Plan B was NEVER a good idea--- because Stuffless never even did plan A, and he didn't understand Harley's concepts, never read the books... A counselor could tell you that separation almost always leads to divorce... not reconciliation... and it did in our case, too. This is exactly the perfect example when people who are not licsenced counselors should NOT be giving out advice... Telling someone to do plan B without finding out if they even read the books... a good counselor would have found that out. They would have known that Stuffless did not read, that he didn't know how to implement any of it, that he in fact hadn't....

I wish for the life of me I never told Stuffless about MB. No advice would have been better than bad advice..

HH I think I understand what you are saying, that many situations can be more than an anonymous board alone can address. I am so sorry for your loss. I know you have tried so hard, for so long.

This is from the top of this and every page.

“The members of this community are peers and not professionals. This is a meeting place of people who have had some of the same problems you face. Each member shares their own experience, perspective, and opinion about various topics. The opinions expressed are not necessarily those that would be endorsed by Dr. Harley or his staff. So please keep this in mind as you discuss issues with the members of the community.”

S was given a lot of advice to get professional help, and then he did. I’m sorry that you all didn’t find the help your family needed.

When my husband left, last November, he was not spending almost any time with me. He was playing ball, going out with the guys drinking, going to the gym, but spending almost NO TIME with me. He had been neglecting me a long time. When I would see him, I was so hurt by how he was treating me, and every time I saw him, he blamed me, over and over. Even looking back over his posts, he did not post about the here and now. I pursued him, and he stonewalled me.

I am deeply hurt. I feel like Stuffless has no internal compass. He follows his feelings, they are king. But feelings take you on a rollercoaster ride, and you hurt and damage those around you, and in the end, you can make excuses, talking about your feelings, as if you can just get off scott free. There is no truth, principle, nothing deep and grounding in feelings. Marriages can never survive based on feelings. No one ever encouraged Stuffless to act from belief--- he acted from feelings... and then ran away... and threw our marriage down the tubes, because of feelings... never acknowledging how he damaged his own marriage, yet demanding I make him feel better. How? How can I do that without addressing the damaging behaviors causing the hurt?

He removed his married status off facebook. That hurts beyond words. I have been faithful, done everything I could, everything, but one stupid A and people throw stones at me, and counsel H to leave--- as if it ever spoke to his character, at all--- his lack of faithfulness in our marriage never got addressed, because it wasn't sexual infidelity, and sexual infidelity is made into this "worst sin of all sins", and so that one can do anything at all to one's partner if they have been sexually unfaithful. How absurd. It's just rationalization--- because at the bottom of it is lack of grace, judgment and condemnation of one to another, one sinner pointing to another, as if they were not a sinner too.

HH
Choices, you both made choices.

You both contributed to make the marriage bad. Your BH never was willing to change. Your were not willing to change until after your affair with the OM.

Your BH is now using your affair as his justification to not have to change. This is wrong. His future relationships will suffer for his adittude.

However your BH, any BH does not have to recover or even to attempt to recover after their WW has an affair.

So don't be made at your BH for not recovering. It is what it is.

You learned a hard lesson here. Don't allow another person to dictate your morals. You knew the affair was wrong. And it put him in a position of choosing to forgive or not. He chose not to forgive. Maybe that was because he was already unhappy as you were. Either way, if he was unwilling to change the dynamic of the marriage, you may be better off without him.

So, a narcissist married an OCD person, and it didn't work, and you blame MB and its posters for your lack of success? umm...ok.

It is amazing looking back how often it appears we talked right past each other. Somehow I feel Stuffless never heard me. He wrote that I was not happy with myself, and I projected it onto him... What I was sharing with Stuffless at the time is that I was not happy with the in-laws living in our house (as they did) and the lack of emotional safety I had with them there, considering the verbal abuse I received from them the last time they lived with us. I was also not happy with my work, and at the time I was working in for Stuffless' company, against my desire, but in a tough position that he was convinced only I could fill. In my personality profile, my strongest personality type is "self-sacrificing", and Stuffless' second strongest is "adventurous" (next to "sensitive", which is my second strongest type as well). The Adventurous personality type likes to take risk, lives on the edge...

Anyways, it is interesting that I sacrificed my wishes professionally for H, but he did not appreciate me for doing so. It was interesting that after I went back to school, he then insisted that I was being selfish... Really, I didn't feel like I could win.

I can't help feeling that all our discrepancies could have been worked out. The counselor he sees used to be my counselor. He is a great counselor for encouraging people to own what they want, to act on their wishes. This fit well with me because I often ignored my own wishes and hopes. However, with the adventurous personality type, the Adventurous person tends to run over the wishes of others, especially Self-Sacrificing types. The counselor did not account for this. Highly Adventurous people need to reign in some of the Adventurous tendencies in order to not mow over other people. Adventurous types already follow their emotions-- counseling someone to give in to their emotions more, instead of to practice discipline, is not the strategy I think was appropriate.

What Oldham and Morris' New Personality Self-Portrait says about my husband's Adventurous style:

"Adventurous types are fundamentally out for themselves" (p. 228).

"Because they don't worry about going under, Adventurous people are remarkably easy with money. Investing, gambling, spending, even giving it away is stimulating, it makes them feel powerful, it's living, and with a good gut sense, they can sometimes make a bundle" (p. 230).

"Life is a game of getting around the rules and the conventional obbligations and going beyond the established limits" (p. 235).

"Adventurous types can be good talkers; they can talk anybody into anything---judges and juries included" (p. 235).

"Individuals with this style do not easily make sacrifices for other people; certainly they make few sacrifices for the sake of fidelity" (p.237).

"They feel no moral pressure to save a relationship just for the sake of saving it or because they feel they owe the partner something for having been involved in the first place. As in other aspects of their lives, they don't build, together or alone, for the future" (p. 238).

Evidently, it was not. A counselor and I saw even said so. He addressed Stuffless (this is after he had separated) that separation almost always leads to divorce. Plan B was never in order here. I was not a wandering spouse. I was not in "fog" thinking. The danger for people like Stuffless going through hard emotional times is that bad advice can shipwreck any hopes for the marriage's future, as I feel it did for mine. This is a warning to MBers that there is lots of bad advice out there, be forewarned and be very cautious what you act on.

Some of the people who post on MB have an agenda. Some had spouses cheat on them, and they dish out anger and vengeance to WSs that come along, and tell BSs to leave their spouses. This is unfortunate... Giving out advice under the guise of "helping" while instead being committed to another agenda... one of vicariously punishing anyone who had an affair... is just not right.

It is sad that first you blame MB for the bad advice. Then you blame your counselor for not taking into account the selfish tendancies of your husband and say that this helped you lose the marriage.

The way you two were living, the way you interacted, and the personality issues you both had would make any marriage hard if not impossible.

Why not put blame where blame belongs, squarely on you and your husband?

MAybe it is time for you to move on and start getting a life for yourself.

Too much talk about how your H and his counselor were at fault for the demise of your M. Too much talk about how MB and its posters were the downfall.

You're here. This should be about you trying to reign in those things that get in your way of having and living the life you want.

"Self-sacrificing" is not a good trait. Why don't we see more communication from you that tells us how you are addressing this obvious problem you have with yourself.

If you don't fix that you'll just take it with you to your next M. And then who will you have to blame when that R ends?

Life's choices have concequences. Many people won't put up with an adulterous spouse.

You need to turn your gaze inward and fix yourself. Then perhaps your H will see the changes and want to come home. Blaming him for the failed marriage isn't quite fair is it?

All sin is sin. But some sins affect a marriage more than others. And adultery is right up there as to its affect on a marriage.

My wife stayed with me after my A. Why? I have no idea. I certainly didn't deserve her to stay.

My advice to posters here who lash out against other posters' advice is 'take what you like and leave the rest'. As a previous poster pointed out, it is up at the top of this page, in black and white--we are not professionals.

HH, what your H did was not Plan B. Plan B is a heartfelt letter that describes a path to recovery. Had your H given you a Plan B letter, focusing on what actions both partners take in recovery, he would have seen that you were in fact addressing them. If the individual issues had been successfully addressed, I think it Plan B could have worked as intended, as a path home for both of you. I can’t know that, though. Again, I’m SO sorry for your loss. You are a special person. I hope that you take this time to continue to create the life you want.

Thanks for posting that, Ears. I was feeling a bit guilty after CN thrashed me today for wanting to abandon my sick spouse. But I know I'd given him what amounted to a Plan B letter, with a very clear path back. And after talking to Steve, a follow up detailing my own accountability. So yesterday's email was a following through. He didn't follow the Plan B.

I don't "blame" others, but I am cognizant of influences. I have also owned my own mistakes. I have come to terms with my own mistakes. I can acknowledge them, deal with them, work through them, heal through them. I'm not focusing on my mistakes not because I don't recognize them, but because I have already recognized them...

My heart mourns misunderstandings.. Misunderstandings that could have been prevented, healed, addressed... misunderstandings that took us down this path. To feel misunderstood, to have my heart judged and actions decided from it--- that is what my heart can't bear.

It feels to me that my husband isn't asking, "Could I have a wonderful, meaningful life and marriage with my wife?", but, "What mistakes has she made and in what ways will I not believe in the future?"

There is a lot to be said about hope. I have felt boxed up for a long time, that H treated me like I would not/could not change... I felt he projected onto me his own fears, and it feels he's decided to leave me because of his projections, not really who I am.

Have you ever hung out with someone who keeps treating you like you are still the person you were in high school? It's like that... even though I've moved past these dark places in my life, it still felt that in interactions H treated me like the same old rotten shoe. I never felt he gave me a fresh chance.

Either way, it is my role to find peace with it. But false projections and motivations and thinking behind projections also come from somewhere... if not from the person (me) then somewhere else. I certainly never told H that I would not change, or that I did not want to grow. In fact, my actions showed the opposite. I worked for change, for healthy patterns and loving patterns of interacting. I don't know what he was fighting against, but it felt like H was fighting against a status quo, a worldview, something whatever it is, that he projected onto me, and then rejected me as a personification of rejecting whatever he was fighting against that he did not like. This is just how I experienced it. He would not take my words as my words--- he would ignore what I said and form his own opinions. When I would confront discrepancies between how he interpreted me and what I really said/meant, I did not feel he was interested in checking in to make sure his interpretations were correct hearrings of me. A simple example of this is when he'd ask me to read over a business letter or something he'd written. If I told him it was excellent, he would not believe me. He had this constant insistence in believing I was lying. This was something he did ever since we started dating--- so I know it didn't start with me. He has inherent trust issues, which I believe are FOO issues--- but I believe in our marriage they were projected onto me, instead of owned for what they were. It's hard enough to have to regain trust for mistakes I've made, but having to fight again the mistakes everyone else in his life has made (his alcoholic parents in his childhood) is just not doable. It's not fair that he withheld that trust from me, trust that his parents broke, and conditioned him to doubt everyone.

What do we call that? The demons in the closet?

It's not about "replacing" H, worrying about that. It's not about not feeling wanted. It's not about any of those things for me. I like myself, I know what I offer, and I don't want H back just so I don't feel lonely or something like that. I genuinely love H. I care about him. I like his heart and who he is, although the past year it's been feeling like his body has been occupied by someone else... Sometimes it really feels like he is in a fog. It's like he's going through a mid-life crisis. It feels like someone took over the body of my husband.


Someone mentioned that being "self-sacrificing" was a personality problem. Sorry, you are wrong. It is a personality type, not a personality disorder. There is nothing wrong with being self-sacrificing, and labeling it as such is down-putting. So please don't put down my personality, or tell me there's something wrong with it, or act like it's psychologically unhealthy. I find joy in giving to others, sharing with others, serving others. That is not a weakness. I believe it is a strength. Just because I may have gotten exploited does not mean it is wrong. The exploitation is wrong, and perhaps my lack of setting good boundaries. Being self-sacrificing is not "wrong" however.

Sounds like your marriage was good for at least 4 out of the last 9 years. That is something at least.

Remember when you told us he wants a domestic slave of a woman that would bear him several children... instead of you that he married? Perhaps he has made his mind up to go looking for that type of woman.

If you want to be properly understood as a spouse and a person, which we all want and need.... I think maybe this man might be too dysfunctional to do it.

What are your plans for the future?

Hi Bubbles4U,
I am back in grad school and finishing that. It's a great program and I'm excited about it. I'm working on my own goals too.

Sounds good! From me, formerly Stellakat.

HH I haven't read all your threads, just skimmed this one, but the overwhelming thing that struck me is how much your posts are about blaming others for your marriage.

Apart from the things others have said, how about your sig?

You get a terse "FWW 30(me)"

He gets an essay on why he's faulty "BS 30 H is adult child of serious alcoholics, enmeshment/emotional incest issues, financial infidelity (taking care of parents not us)"

IMO more humility and contrition and less blamestorming would serve you very well.

H never told me why he left. I asked for him to share with me why. When he moved out, he said it was because I was "abusive". He did not specify how. I felt confused because he often raised his voice at me, called me names like "loser" and "failure", and regularly made value judgments about me. I routinely attempted to look at our conflict through the big picture lens: what were the dynamics playing a part? What led to the fighting? What were the prerequisites? H would not look at the factors around our conflicts, and he did not acknolwedge his abusive tendencies.

I still don't know why he left. I am having an exceptionally hard time tonight as I learned that my husband is hanging out with my sister, and they are "friends". My sister has been incredibly abusive to me. My sister has very deep anger problems. When she gets upset about something, instead of sharing that something you did upset her, she starts screaming and yelling and name-calling. My sister is incredibly abusive. She is also physically abusive and violent. She scares me. I have tried to limit my exposure to her as a result. I am confused how and why my husband is hanging out with her. I am deeply loyal and cannot help feeling incredibly betrayed. For all the hurtful things my sister has done to me (as she has my whole family, every family member in my family is wary around her), she has never apologized once to me, never owned up for her hurtful treatment. I do not understand how my husband can hang out with her, as I have in every case I can remember apologized heartfelt for when I hurt my husband, when I did anything hurtful or invalidating. I am very quick to take ownership, to apologize. I am not "prideful" as some as tried to allude. I have no problem with acknowledging my mistakes. I am growth oriented, and I am aware of my mistakes and their impacts on others.

Yet, despite taking ownership, my husband has made friends with someone who does not take ownership. He has disowned me an befriended exactly who he insists I am. But I am not this person.

The levels of abusiveness present in this dynamic with my husband are beyond what I can fathom. My sister is not a self-sacrificing personality type. She makes sure she gets hers, if that makes sense. And H makes sure he gets his. Yet I don't understand how, in the midst of everything, I get attacked, things get turned onto me. Even today, when I talked to my sister, she turned them onto me.

I just don't want to be the scapegoat any more. I just don't know why he won't love me. It comes down to that. He just won't love me. For years, he has given me excuse after excuse. I thought it was because I wasn't making enough money for him. Then I thought it was because I was "fat" (which I never was, but he was judging me by supermodel standards). Then I thought it was because he didn't think I kept house well enough. There has always been a reason. Yet, he has never been my friend, never offered me friendship. And he offers it to my sister. Ouch. My sister who talked bad about me to him.

I am going to give up. I can't love this man any more. What is wrong with me that I throw myself at him. He never received me. I am worth loving. I feel so hurt that he rejects me. I guess deep down I still believe in him, in his good heart. I don't understand how he can leave me. I don't understand how he can just take my love for granted. How he can treat it like it's nothing. I feel utterly heartbroken. I am going to pick myself up off the floor and move on. Harden my heart to him, because I have to. I cannot do this any more. I gave him everything I had, and even now, all I've gotten is the crumbs. He won't even talk to me on the phone. I just can't do this any more. I just can't cry any more.

I wish that people would stop attacking me. I talk about what H did because H did those things. It is possible that H did many more hurtful things in the M than I did, yes, it is. Because I am highly self-sacrificing, when I post I need to be validated about what I am wrestling with. This is because I have a tendency to not watch out for myself in normal life the way other personality types do. So when I come to MB, I end up grappling with what transpired... I end up grappling with the instances when YES I was stepped on. That does not make me selfish, that doesn't mean I "blame" everyone. I don't understand why people say I "blame". If I am grappling with influences and I say something was an influence, or a bad influence, that's not me passing the buck, that's me merely acknowledging what was, trying to ascertain it. I don't need to talk about how I contributed. I already know. I already know that I panicked often when H would regularly threaten to leave me, as loyalty and committed relationship is important to me. I already know how I would become defensive after H said verbally abusive things to me, how it ruined date after date, in the period during the separation and after which H decided he just couldn't be with me. There is nothing I can do about this. He never came to the table and treated me sweetly. He got me a CD for Christmas and nothing for my birthday. Not on one of the dates was he happy to see me. He often came upset, agitated, and turned it loose on me. Several times I was a few minutes late when he picked me up, and he let loose on me. I seriously feared his verbal attacks. I was uncomfortable just to be with him. If we managed to make it to the restaurant without him canceling the date after the first 5 minutes, he would then let loose on me at the restaurant, tell me how upset he was about me in this or that way. He said our dates were about "building positive experiences together", but that never happened. He attacked me every date.

When he says he did everything he could, I do not believe that is true. Tearing down your wife on dates is not "doing everything you can" before giving up on the marriage. How about getting an attitude adjustment, and stop punishing your wife? Stop tearing into her? How about treating her like the special, worthwhile person she is?

I regret so many things. Just recently we talked, when he told me he was going to divorce me for good, he had made up his mind, and I had just come back from a run. I was starving and worn out. I took the call, and I shouldn't have. My energy was low. When he told me he had made up his mind and he was divorcing me, I panicked. If I was in my right mind, meaning, not starving and not worn down from a long run, I wouldn't have handled it like I did. But, it didn't matter to H. The conversation just affirmed why he was divorcing me.

Divorce is dirty. It tears people apart. It is incredibly hurtful. I don't even want the divorce, but H decided he is giving up on the M. I can't bear it any more. Where is the love in all this? There is no love. There is no grace, mercy, kindness, forgiveness, gentleness... there is only condemnation. Divorce is the greatest condemnation of another. It says, "I don't want you any more" and "You are not worth working for". I do not know how to deal with it. H is so wrapped up in the fog of victimhood, and it is fog--- that he sees himself as powerless to save the marriage. I feel that he has so much contempt for me. The harder I have tried to hold onto him, the more contempt he has. He sees me as "weak", "dependent".

I have made many friends in the recent months and developed a support structure. I am preparing for a life on my own. But H is everywhere. He is in my memories and experiences, he is in my thoughts, and he plagues me at night when I lay down to sleep. I think about how rarely he made love to me, how rarely he cuddled with me. I think about how often I wanted to connect with him in conversation, and he was not available. I wonder in agony why he would not love me.

I cannot stand it. I have been with him my entire adult life. I built my life around him. All my business contacts-- they are his. I have been disowned by everyone. Now they are H loyalists. Even though we were in business together, I cannot call on a single one of them to help me out--- to connect me with possible job opportunities, etc, to do any of the things they would help H with, because he has successfully allied them to his side. I am merely "the wife of". but now "the ex-wife of". I am like an old accessory. I can feel it. This is what it's like in this industry.

H doesn't understand this. He does not understand what it means to be scared financially for the future, the way a W is when her husband, the financial provider, leaves. Even if he gives me alimony, he does not understand. H does not understand what it means to lose all your business contacts. H does not understand how vulnerable I feel.

I feel incredibly taken advantage of. I feel used. I feel my love was used. I feel hurt. I hate the hurt. I hate the pain I feel. I hate this place I'm at. I don't want to be here any more. ugh!!!

This too shall pass.

TSTS, how about rereading LA's posts to you? Or getting to a meeting? That helps me when I forget that my life is full of joy because I am so hyperfocused on one person's actions. I don't say to you to be cold, hon. You have been in mourning for a long time. It is appropriate to feel grief now, of course, but you can have good parts to your day, too.

I understand that you need validation too, HH. But I feel like you're asking too much of the board here, when you barely share your good days, your progress. You don't encourage others on good days or bad, just appear when you're at your lowest, and dissappear when you feel "better enough" again. I'm asking you, HH, to read Dr. H's What to Do With a Depressed Spouse. There is treatment today. I encourage you to get the outside help you need, and come post back when you have a plan. It's too painful otherwise to just keep watching you flail, offering suggestions that don't sound good to you. What would sound good to someone chemically depressed? Please, HH, *you* make your plan, and then we can support you in it.

When I don't post to you, doesn't mean I don't care, just means that I have nothing new to say to you. I'm still rooting for you quiety. I look forward to seeing the life you create for yourself.

HH, here is a really good example of how you take a situation, and look for all the possible reasons why you don't have to take responsibility for yourself.

That is not meant as a jibe against you. It is meant as an attempt to help you find happiness. You were starving so you screwed up. You were tired so you screwed up. You shouldn't have taken a call at that time so you screwed up.

All valid possibilities for why you said the wrong thing, or whatever you did.

But what does saying/thinking that get you?

Even this:
is you saying that, darn it, if you just had a different personality type, you wouldn't have panicked. So I guess it's God's fault?

How about: I tend to panic so I'm working really hard to stop myself before those feelings surface and I stick my foot in my mouth.

See the difference?

You're doing a lot of searching. How about searching topics on accountability? I think it would be a tremendous help to you on learning how to achieve happiness.

Why are you not posting on your own thread, HopingHeart?

Seekingtruth527,
I think I'm writing on his thread for multiple reasons... I really miss him, I feel closer to him writing on his thread (strange, but true... kind of like holding onto the object of a loved one that deceased...)

I also feel hurt by some of the counsel he received.. I feel as an FWS, and H as a FBS, that the advice given can be bias by some just because of that history there.. Rabbittrails that I thought should have been gone down in giving H good counsel never materialized... for example, D.r Harley talks about 15 dedicated hours of quality time each week to restore the relationship... well, H never gave me anywhere near that. I was lucky in the last 6 months (after he moved out) to get even one hour a week, and because he would not respond to me the rest of the week, often we ended up doing "business" (bill discussions, responsibility discussions) even though I direly did not want to discuss such things. We ended up talking budgets.. No one in his real life told him to spend time with me. Time was my number one complaint.

Catperson,
I guess I am confused... how am I NOT taking responsibility? I didn't blame H for me being panicky. Sorry, just wondering, how many people can be told by the spouse they love that they are being divorced and NOT feel like the floor was pulled out from under them? How many would NOT get panicky? They point is not the feeling of deep loss and despair, but that I didn't handle it the way I wanted to because I was tired. I was not blaming anyone there. My action was my action.

There was a LOT of hope for my marriage. A LOT. Good boundaries, for one, with the in-laws would have helped. H participating in our marriage as a team player instead of his own boss would have helped. I addressed each issue with my husband. None of them were ever worked on by him. Instead, H took the route of trying to be "nicer", (bascially not being emotionally abusive) but did not stop the independent behavior. He did not invest 15 hours a week with me. He did not set boundaries with his parents... UNTIL AFTER HE LEFT ME.

You are not taking responsibility because you always have a reason for everything you do wrong, everything you understand incorrectly, everything that happens to you.

Sometime you have to stop looking outside yourself and accept what you are responsible for.

Just recently we talked, when he told me he was going to divorce me for good, he had made up his mind, and I had just come back from a run. I was starving and worn out. I took the call, and I shouldn't have. My energy was low.

When he told me he had made up his mind and he was divorcing me, I panicked. If I was in my right mind, meaning, not starving and not worn down from a long run, I wouldn't have handled it like I did. But, it didn't matter to H. The conversation just affirmed why he was divorcing me.
Honestly, what difference would it have made if you had come up with the smartest, wittiest answer in the world? You can't change him or his mind. You can only change yourself.

So, because you were tired, hungry, and weak, you did/said the wrong thing? What good does it do to say that? To think that? How did anything turn out better?

My H is the King of Denial. EVERYTHING in life is someone else's fault. He ran a red light and got a ticket, and it was the fault of the guy behind him cos he was tailing him too closely. His boss has a hard time dealing with him (as all his other bosses have, as well), but it's because the boss is 'looking at everything wrong.' He didn't get an ad turned in on time yesterday, when the ad was supposed to be turned in Wednesday, but it's his bosses' fault because they wouldn't review the ad when he asked (on Friday, already two days late), and because he was gone all day Wednesday and Thursday (which he knew about ahead of time); when I asked him why he didn't get it done on Tuesday, he got mad at me.

What good did it do my H to blame his problems on someone or something else? He STILL has to suffer the consequences, whether it's his fault or not. The only reason to blame your problems on anything besides yourself is to make yourself feel better, and not have to do the work you need to do on yourself.

I also feel hurt by some of the counsel he received.. I feel as an FWS, and H as a FBS, that the advice given can be bias by some just because of that history there.. Rabbittrails that I thought should have been gone down in giving H good counsel never materialized... for example, D.r Harley talks about 15 dedicated hours of quality time each week to restore the relationship... well, H never gave me anywhere near that.

So, now it's OUR fault? WE didn't tell him what to do that YOU wanted? Why didn't YOU tell him what you wanted, and work on that?

Does that make more sense?

Hoping
I have been reading over your thread, and I really feel for you. It is obvious that you really love your husband and from your husbands own words he 'desperately loves' you. I hope that it will work out for you regardless of what you have been through. I have to ask, what 'industry' are you in, what type of work do you and your husband do. Over the last couple years your work is repeated to constantly, but only hinted at. I am very curious? Also if it not going to work out or he does not want to try, maybe you need to find a new line of work. Sounds like he has basically blackballed you and if you do get a new career path it may help you get over him. Maybe there are too many memories in this business and you need a fresh start.

Hi HH:

I read your thread and it hit a nerve I guess. I can tell from your post that you are in a lot of pain and are really hurt. You remind me of my ex-wife in some ways. My XW cheated on me and I divorced her. I felt just like your H that she was never happy and then went on to have an affair. My XW affair signaled the end of our marriage. I had told her I would divorce her if she ever cheated.

I realize my XW was not happy in our marriage but that was not my fault. I did everything for her and yet she was never happy. I started earning good money and give her things and she just wanted more. She felt entitled to be happy. Whatever made her happy was what it was all about. I don't think it every occured to her that she could lose me. That maybe she should treat me well and try not to lose me.

When I had her served and ruined her trip with the OM everything changed. My XW did not want the divorce and even though it has been a couple of years she still wants us back together. I feel bad for her because she was so unhappy with me but she is worse without me. Her affair killed any love I had for her. Some of us have a firm line in the sand. I look at it this way if you need another man then we need to divorce so you can have him forever and I can find a woman who will look at me the way she looked and felt with the OM.

I am too good a catch to wait for sloppy seconds from any woman so I divorced her so she could be with the OM. She dropped him like a hot potato when I filed and has not been with him since. I tell you this since I have included posts from your thread and your H thread above.



Your H loved you but he realized that you acted like you were never happy with him. Maybe he did neglect you but it was clear that you were unhappy and then you cheated with another man. Now I can tell you as a guy that some men cannot overcome the betrayal. Maybe your H is one of those people. Plus it is just to much work to live with someone who is always unhappy and goes out and cheats but yet expects the betrayed spouse to want to work on the marriage.

You should have known that if you cheated it might send the signal that you no longer want to be married to your H. And if you were unhappy and depressed well it just might have been asking to much for him to overcome. Just my opinion from a guy who lived this life.


Now HH I got this from your first post. When I read this I see a woman who was very unhappy. You were married but in love with another man. I lived with a woman just like you and I will just say for me it is just not worth it. It does not appear that you were happy with your husband and you are not happy when he is gone. I lived thru this and it is a horrible life.

I did not want an unhappy wife. Nothing I did could change that she was unhappy. She was so unhappy she went and found a guy to have sex with and she got to take my paycheck and as long as she could do that and not care about my needs she was happy. You see to make her happy all I had to do was let her shop and let her have a lover she was hot for and just turn over my paycheck so she could buy what she wanted... At last I had found out what would make her happy and I realized I did not care if she was happy. I realized I could divorce her and keep my paycheck and find a woman who did care about me. It was an easy choice.

Now it sounds like you felt neglected and he was not there for you. If that is the case you need to move on and find someone else. I understand being lonely in a marriage is horrible but finding another man and cheating is a hard thing to get over. But if you were that unhappy then I don't blame you for wanting to get out but you don't seem to understand how having an affair can end a marriage right away.

I hurt for you because my XW hurts just like you. You need to find a way back to happiness. But if your H only sees an unhappy woman who cheats then really I just don't see any way to get him to want the marriage. My wife neglected me for years yet I did not divorce her. But her cheating on me sure made it easy to leave the M.

You need to learn how to be happy in life. You also need to realize your part in this. Your unhappiness is something that is within you. You need to learn how to be happy again. I wish you the best in your search.

HH, if you don’t want to divorce, if you still want to make a go of this, why not? How about calling the Harleys for support and a plan? Looking4 is getting a lot of relevant advice and support on her thread InRecovery, how to continue on your recovery plan when your BS expects you to do ALL of the heavy lifting. If you look at the successfully recovered FWWs on the board, they ALL had to do ALL the heavy lifting with zero short-term return for long periods of time in order to recover their marriage. But they did recover their marriages, marriages that were better than they had ever been.

Ihadenough,

I was very happy many times with my husband. I am not sure why my beloved Hubby felt I was never happy. It was not true.
---
It has been a long time, and many things have happened. I am still standing for my marriage and praying for God's healing over it. God can take the impossible and make it possible, he can wash the stain of sin away, soften hardened hearts, heal brokenness, and plant a garden where there was only death and destruction.

The bible describes Satan as coming to kill and destroy. I used to not believe in spiritual warfare, but I believe in it now. Satan wants to destroy marriages and destroy homes, and sin will take people captive to its power and wreck everything in its way.

God freed me from the power of sin on my life. God wants to restore if people are willing to seek Him. If we are willing to forgive, anything and everything can happen. God works in supernatural ways and makes things new.

I didn't know how much anger I harbored in my heart. My anger blocked the door to restoration. I did not know that I was not willing to forgive. I did not know what it meant to love.

Now I know. I love my husband very much.

Every day I ask God for mercy. His mercy in my life, his mercy when I interact with others, the mercy to be merciful, the mercy to love, to mercy to forgive and be forgiven. His mercy in my marriage. God's supernatural power is my hope and strength. What is impossible with man is possible with God.

Love you all.

I am now divorced and my life has moved on. I still love my ex-husband (Stuffless) very much. He still loves me. He is uncertain of what he wants, and says he's not happy. Both of us miss being together.

I've changed a lot. I look at things differently. I've come to learn why I acted in certain ways and to take ownership for it.

There's not a day that goes by that I don't miss my ex dearly. Nothing seems right anymore.
I don't really fight any more, with anyone. Even my parents, who can be difficult. I have no doubt everything would be different if Stuffless and I tried again. However, I don't know how to make that happen. He says he doesn't know what he wants to whether he would want to be with me.

All I can do is live my life the best I can.
My life has a lot of deep grief.

Sometimes I have dreams where my ex is with me, and it's me and him again, happy, goofy, without a care. It's him and me again, nothing else matters. Life isn't perfect, but we're together.

I wish he would come back.

Hi HH,

Have you dated other people? That might take your mind off of your X-husband. We have many folks here are happily remarried,[Seekingwife is one - she posted to you] using all the new skills they learned on Marriage Builders.

Harley suggests dating ALOT of people and marrying the one who does the best job of meeting your needs. I seem to remember that your XH did a very poor job of meeting your needs. That can probably be avoided in your next marriage if you carefully select a spouse who does the BEST job of meeting your needs.

HH,

It appears from reading some of your old tread that you never exposed the OM to his parents, school, church etc. Did your BH feel any hostility towards the guy, especially since OM got away undamaged?

God Bless
Gamma

Hi MelodyLane,
I've dated... I know what you mean by selecting a spouse who does a fantastic job of meeting your needs. Stuffless did an amazing job of meeting my needs and that's why I fell in love with him and married him.

Hi Gamma, I didn't need to. OM confessed his A himself to the appropriate people at school and church.

Am I remembering wrong? I seem to remember he did a terrible job of meeting your needs according to your posts. Maybe my memory is off..

What you are not remembering are the guidelines for dealing with waywards. Remember, just because a wayward says something, doesn't mean it's true.

Just because a wayward says her spouse didn't meet her needs, that doesn't mean it's true.

It could be, she now sees how he was meeting her needs and misses what she had and didn't even know it.

Who knows?

MelodyLane, there were times where he did, and times where he did not so well. Prior to him leaving me, our time together did diminish. Looking back, we also had quite a few external pressures, other than just in-law stressors. Our business was under a great deal of stressors and my dog was dying.

That's not to say he didn't meet my EN's. I think he may have been at a point where he was struggling with his desire to be in the marriage, considering that both of us didn't know how to handle conflict well, which is understandable. Certainly, by the time he left, he had to have considered leaving, despite disliking it as an option. Leaving is a contrary option to committing to meeting a spouse's EN's, so it makes sense his focus there likely diminished, which is why I was experiencing higher anxiety about the marriage. I didn't really know how to handle my anxiety, unfortunately.

I also failed to meet his EN's the way I should have.

I handle stressors differently now, and wish I had the tools back then. I miss my H. I invite him to hang out, each time he says the day/time won't work for him. I know he's working a lot, not sure if maybe he doesn't really want to hang. We also have different schedules (I work evenings), and that makes it harder. He seems to be happy to hear from me, but it's conflicted happiness. He says it's hard for him, that a lot of the old stress emotions come back.

HH, at the beginning of this thread you said that Stuffless was abusive, narcissistic, has avoidant personality disorder, and that he never attempted to meet your emotional needs.

HopingHeart,

Hi Gamma, I didn't need to. OM confessed his A himself to the appropriate people at school and church.

I know that's what you thought, but what did your H feel about your not doing anything to expose OM. He may also be lying to you about the extent of self-exposure btw.

The way you write that it almost sounds like you are saying that he was a good guy for exposing himself. Somewhat like the esteem my W still holds for OM2.

From your H's perspective "exposing himself to the appropriate people at school and church" might have included everyone. If he is still seducing women at some church you haven't done your job.

God Bless
Gamma

Wow, Gamma, I don't know what I say... I feel sideswiped. Actually, I feel uncomfortable. You're projecting some weird stuff onto me that's not mine, and I don't really wish to pick it up as my job to answer it, because it's not. You said you're detecting some esteem I hold for the OM? Are you kidding? That's not me at all and I feel really uncomfortable with you putting that on me.

I might suggest though that if it's an issue for you (that your FWS doesn't completely denigrate the OM) that there might be some bitterness issues still lingering. As a woman who had my own spouse walk out on me and have another relationship with another woman while married to me, I feel I can talk about bitterness because I understand it quite well. You can't repair a marriage and hold onto bitterness. I don't know if you are, but the fact you projected issues onto me suggests something's there.

Additionally, I don't wish evil or bad on anyone. Exposure seeks to end an illicit relationship, not as some kind of cruel punishment to ruin someone's life. Exposure is not about vindication. Exposure is also not about trying to set someone straight, because I can't control what another person chooses to do. What I can control is they're not doing it with me. (Do you really think anyone can control another person's free will? How convoluted this conversation would get if someone insisted on trying to "control" another...)

I haven't talked to the OM for 7 years, when the A ended. I don't think dialogue about the OM is in line with my recent posts at all and feel lost and frustrated as to why OM is being brought up at this point.
I don't mean to be insensitive to anyone out there, but it doesn't feel sensitive to my post and what I'm sharing to mention something this off.

I feel frustrated about even having I have this conversation. I feel unheard, like my post wasn't even read.

I think I already shared numerous times that the A was not why Ex-H left. He left because we were fighting (LB's).

I was in a prayer group two years ago with ladies whose husbands had walked out on them. We would come together to pray for our marriages. I had a particularly awakening experience there. One girl who claimed to want her husband back spoke of him with the cruelest words. She almost smirked and seethed with contempt and the animosity she had for him was amazing. So much anger. And when she talked with him (she recounted the conversations), she spoke with a disrespectful tone, disrespectful words... Would anyone want to come home to that?

Why would any WS ever want to come back to a marriage where they were going to get treated like that?

The thought of BS justifying their anger makes me think of that. I am a BS too, I've had to deal with anger on a real level, but it has no place in marriage restoration...

Kirby, not sure if you are reading my posts? Have you read Dr. Harley's books?
I feel frustrated. Your response to me feels... grainy... contentious... What is your goal? To be combative? To understand? I don't feel heard or understood by your response.

Being "abusive" means LB's. So can narcissistic personality traits and avoidant personality disorder can have its own effects. Personality is something that can change. It is not fixed any more than a person who has a pattern of continuous LB's is fixed to be that way for life. We can change how we see things, understand things, react to things, and LB patterns can be dismantled and extinguished.

I know that when a bunch of shrinks got together and created the first DSM and then came up with all sorts of diagnostic labels, that those labels get treated as never changing realities of a person. I don't agree at all that personality disorders are fixed. Personality disorders are defense mechanism disorders--- meaning, learning healthier defense patterns and coping mechanisms enables a person to respond to their environment differently, which is in effect a personality change. That is the summit of all of Dr. Harley's work--- real life transformation through foundational growth of the person.

Like Harley says, couples fall in love because they meet each others' EN's. My Ex-H and I fell in love and we met each others EN's. At one point LBs entered the picture and we stopped meeting each others ENs.

I was pointing out the fact that you are being inconsistent. You have stated that Stuffless did an amazing job meeting your needs and also that he never attempted to meet your needs. Those cannot both be true.

Her response is accurate. She is only posting the truth. I had the same reaction when I went back and read your posts. You wrote endless, VERY LONG posts about what a poor job he did of meeting your needs. How many posts do you think you made about what a poor husband he was? I dunno.

Maybe you need to go back and read your posts?

My suggestion would be to find someone new who does a good job of meeting your needs. Dr Harley recommends dating at least 30 people and marrying the one who does the best job of meeting your needs.

HH,

I was just trying to give you some perspective from a BH, this may or may not apply to you. I get the impression from your posts that you never really understood your BH's perspective on the affair or what WW affairs do to BH's in general.

And yes people on this forum do not really know you, but can only form an image of you from your words, and the limited number of posts your ExH made.

God Bless
Gamma

Former married couples can and do get back together; some shouldnt but many can.
Here is a link to articles Dr. Harley wrote on this subject: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5035_qa.html

However, Dr. Harley also says that persons with emotional disorders are usually unable to follow the POJA and usually end up divorced because they cant maintain a mutually caring relationship.

Wow, HDW, that link was so enlightening, especially the second page! I hadn't seen it yet, even though I've perused this site extensively. Another good reason to "lurk" in other people's threads...there is so much wisdom here, both through Dr. Harley and through the many experienced posters.