Hello.
Lets just say my H is going to IC and we go to MC together. Our current MC knows about MB but uses many types of techniques.

He is going to IC, that I am thankful for, but I feel the IC is overriding the M advice.

His consept of "standing up for himself" sometimes overrides me. He just does not seem to care.

He walks away from any argument not going his way (to a ridiculous degree). There is never any resolution..

He proudly states; "I am standing up for myself".
"I am being honest and telling you my feelings."
"I am going to walk away from this conversation".

Which sounds very noble and good. How are you going to solve hard marital issues if you cant have the hard conversations?
any ideas?

Individual counselling is about putting yourself first. It isn't about finding a way to build a marriage - i.e. a relationship involving two people. It is about ONE person. IC is almost inevitably in conflict with MC, which is about becoming interdependent and always taking the other person's feelings into account.

Is your H's commitment to IC so entrenched that he will not give it up?

Could your MC explain to him the conflict that the IC is causing?

Standing up for himself, eh?

Codependency approach much?

Barbie, IC interferes with marriages in that it encourages independent behavior rather than the interdependant behavior that creates happy marriages. Independent behavior is a HUGE lovebuster as you have discovered. He is being taught to make decisions without taking your feelings into account, which leads to incompatibility.

From what you describe, a better solution for your marriage would be to learn the POJA which would involve making decisions that make you BOTH happy and benefit the marriage.

Thank you all for the reply. I know the IC is based on the self and one person immprovement, but I am supportive of him going.

Without giving details he really needed to go. I do not want to crush his good intentions, (beleive-u-me, he is showing positive behaviors now that are helpful.)

I know I have read other people who have done counseling (both IC and M), I wonder how they reconciled conflicting advice.

I would hate the first true positive behaviors I see (now I am not 100% at fault all the time, I am only at fault 84%) ;-)

Here is an example. I know that you are "in charge of your own happiness", but I contend that your spouse's behaviors and actions affects your "happiness", too.

small example, but a conflict.

HHH;
what?

"Put the marriage first" would seem to be simple advice that would make sure nobody benefits at anybody else's expense.

Another good policy to follow would be to always grant each other the right to say "Can we negotiate this?"

AGree. Putting the marriage first results in the greatest happiness for both. Historically, IC causes problems in marriages because it puts the idividual before the marriage, which conflicts with the goal of compatibility.

It depends on the background.

"I am standing up for myself" could mean:
A) You always get your way and I am going to take a stand for what I want for a change.
B) I think I am right and I like to win the argument at all cost.
C) I want my input to truly be taken into account and come up with a win-win solution.

"I am being honest and telling you my feelings."
A) I have not felt comfortable ever telling you my true feelings before because you don't provide a safe emotional environment.
B) I am saying what I want and I don't care if it hurts you.
C) I am trying to be Open and Honest.


"I am going to walk away from this conversation".
A) I feel that you are using Disrespectful Judgments/Angry Outburts on me and I want to remove myself so I don't do the same.
B) I don't like what you are saying so I am taking my marbles and going home.
C) I feel that we are not making constructive progress so I would like to defuse the emotional tension so we can address this issue again.

Being bipolar, I have received IC from time to time. But I have always made it very clear that any "guidance" that would be contrary to a good happy marriage is guidance I don't want. I had one counselor begin to try to explore the idea of leaving DH due to a couple of big issues, and I simply said, "I will not be leaving DH. He is my H."

There are some psychiatric issues that need IC from time to time, but I would make sure that any marriage-unfriendly advice was firmly shut out. When I go now, it is just do get meds looked at.

IC is risky business.

But it is my reality. I cant say "I don't like this", nor would I even want to.

Our MC is fine with IC,
But she has asked that we share any readings/info with each other.
I send him MB all the time! sure!
I found a 8 disc CD set about marriage that I liked and I shared, and I sign up for a weekly newsletter that I forward to him every week too.

I know that he has "assignments", I have seen notes but did not read them.... he complains that he is reading a lot of books.
He has not shared one flipping thing back.

He maintains that he wants the M. Will say it all the time.

But now he is putting himself first, saying things like;
"If I can't take care of myself, I can't take care of anyone else."

"I am making myself happy, because you are the only person you can make yourself happy."

That sounds good in writing but in reality I get shut out and ignored a lot. That is how I feel.

I usually let that slide right off.

It sounds like he is using advice to meet his agenda. Lots of people do that. A good IC would clarify what "making myself happy" means in the context of M.

Have you considered calling his IC? My DH has full permission from me to get any info he needs from my docs.

I mean, where does common sense and balance come in?

Even Dr. H says that no one should sacrafice yourself for a relationship.
I also know that my H has been at counseling about 4 months. This is new to him. He has never admitted that he had any problems before, (It was always everyone elses fault)

at least now he is looking at "fixing himself"

before compromise was pointless

Thaks T
No, It is not medical issue.

He therapist is a MSW, not a doctor. I have serious issues with social workers ( please no offense MBrs).

It seems the ones I know are all doctor wannabees.

But he seems to like her. He has stopped quite a bit of the passive agressive antagonising.

So at first I thought things were going to go well. Maybe it will.
Tuesday I have another MC appointment. I will try to bring up the fact he apparently ignores MC advice in favor of "self improvement".

Ahhhhhhh....social worker/counselor. That makes sense. My first counselor was a SW who worked at the area Mental Health center (it was free for teachers). Yeah, there was a lot of practical coping and empowering and stuff....which would have been great if I was an indigent abused woman. But it wasn't what I needed really.

Ugh. It's hard to navigate marriage/personal stuff/growing/changing/self-care/caring for your spouse sometimes, isn't it? Is there a way you think you could broach to him that you are so glad he is looking at himself and his life but you still want to be a team? I know it probably feels like a tightrope.

(((barbiecat)))

I see, this is difficult. My H & I went to IC & MC as well. The cool thing about it was that it was a husband & wife team who do IC & MC together, and talk about the cases together (w/your consent of course), so nothing is hidden, and, they'll ask you about bringing in some issues from the IC into the MC as well, because they know ultimately what happens in IC will affect MC. My H also sused the advice to his advantage - why? Well, two major components were/(and are, as he ceased to go to IC, 3 sessions were enough for him, or so he says. Now he blames everything about himself on "our" marriage... nice.) co-dependency and als othe fact that he was & is hurting, and wants a "safe" place to "share" (or now, as I have found out, to hide) what it is that he wants to share. Many people do this, especially if they are unfamiliar with IC and/or MC. I feel that both need to happen, so that each of you has accountability to a party outside of family/friends/etc.. that can have a true objective point of view & whom you allow to kick you in the rear-end if need be. I hope you can seek out the kind of IC & MC where they co-incide & also share vital information that will ultimately influence your marriage. MB's techniques, counseling, & help do all of those things as well. Hence, why I am here ;-)

He has gotten better talking to her. Really, she is sort of a former hippie type that had him doing meditation. ( yikes!!)
better than the emotionally distant engineer, who was very, very angry (but would not admit this)

Actually I liked the meditation class.

I don't even know what they talk about, but the few time I met her, she gave rapid fire excuses on my H's behalf. It did not sound like any accountability was happening at all to me.

I have asked for the "info" she is having him read. Nomoremrnice guy (now she claims that was not her idea, but his)
and Dr. Phil.
Not joking.

May I add this is costing $240 a week. Most covered by insurance, tho.

Thanks, L;
but he really seems to like her. But I feel she has diagnosed him and me bytheway, as ...drumroll please.... codependant!

My 25+ year experenced PhD. MC does not believe in labels like this- thinks they get in the way of recovery.

I like/don't like or MC (she does set ya back on yer azz in your thinking once in awhile)- but I think she is smart and has good positive expereince with MC.

I laid out all my concerns today. In a polite/ non judgemental way as I could. My point, if we are not going to follow MC acvice, why are we going?
She sees it as a who is in control thinkg... but did agree that we have to decide what we want and really commit ourselves to recovery.

Well, get your 2x4 ready.

I have decided I can not stand his counselor.
I feel she is diagnosing not only him but me (by what he says)

I do not beleive she is qualified to "diagnose".
I don't care what she thinks I am. I wish his counseling was about him, not "changing" me. But this is what he takes away from the meetings, maybe not what she says.

She is an older "hippie" type, and the temptation to call her counselor "huff and puff".

How, when I am having pop terms tossed at me, do I not LB back?
He seems to get real upset that I do not like her (I only met her 5 times at meditation class). Well, I do not.

MC says to exchange information that we are receiving, how do you do that when it angers you? He feels I flood him with MB (hehe) and I get nothing back.

And this is a bad thing? See, this is the problem. ICs encourage independent behavior at the expense of the marriage. Of course you should be "codependent" if you want to have a great marriage. I am "codependent" and so are Dr and Mrs Harley. That is only a problem when you are married to an alcoholic/addict, because being interdependent ["co dependent"] can be a disaster when married to a destructive person. Not so when married to a normal.

This counselor is giving him marriage wrecking, silly advice:
How the Co-dependency Movement Is Ruining Marriages
by Willard F. Harley, Jr.


Barbie, can you not persuade your H to get on the phone with someone like Steve Harley? He might do wonders for your marriage and avoid all the garbage this IC is introducing into your marriage.

Oh hot dayahm! (sorry God!)

This article is great, I have not read it before. I have already sent his email a copy....

You see, at least now in "counseling" he will read and consider the content I read. Before he "knew it all".

At least now I can put this forth and he will read talk about it.

But his new "Catchphrase" is "healthy boundries". If I say anything that is too upsetting, I have crossed his "boundries" and he removes himself from the room/conversation/planet.

But you know something, I know it is not the counselors fault. He is a grown man who can make his descisions all for himself.
He brings back the info he wants.

She excuses online pornography (a release) dating sites (a sign someting is wrong in the marriage) --gee you think?

But he has quit having the angry outbursts at his family.

But I don't hear word one about accountability.

Yes, he is becoming a very selfish person, all the while using "healthy boundires" and other pop psycho terms to support his case.

He is willing now to at least read the MB items. He does not believe in everything, but at least he now listens.

Wow. I would not tolerate her either. Your current MC / IC sounds like mine as well. I don' think that those conselors are worth the dime. They do distract, and , as far as "boundaries" are concerned, I feel sorry for the author, as the whole "boundaries" connundrum was never meant for people to use in order to protect that which harms their loved ones (e.g. pornography & dating sites, etc..). It was MEANT to spur on accountabililty, and, like most things in life, people use, bend, twist & manipulate whatever they want to in order to benefit for their own gain.

It's a sick & twisted game. My father went to many IC's who were "Christian" or "God-fearing" who all told him the same things your post-modern hippie counselor is telling your H.

I am sorry you have to go through it. IC forces you to act independently as well. Good thing you can manipulate yourself into working on your marriage... hmm... what a concept!

I think as far as drawing lines with your H (I hate to use the word boundaries here, as it's been reduced to a negative cliche), is a smart thing to do, and needing to put down an effective plan regarding accountability. I have learned that, with anyone who is wayward, if they truly are uninterested in change, they will most definitely avoid all accountability plans & continue on defending their own cause. This will, inevitably leave you alone in marriage. This is where you following Dr.Harvey's plans (A & B, etc.) will become extremely important.

I hope you continue to read the articles here & seek out advice. I know how it is to have a spouse pull out the "boundaries" theme when they want to avoid talking with you, period, let alone defending the slop they wish to continue wallowing in.

There is hope for you, albeit a lonely road sometimes, but know that you are trying to do what is right, and MB's is all about fighting for what is right, true, and what was designed to be sanctified in God's eyes - marriage.

Hey, Barbiecat! Your situation sounds so frustrating! As a therapist myself, I have met a lot of, um, interesting, professionals out there! Many of whom I would not let counsel my pugs...
I have also had a lot of unhealthy (usually abusive) clients who would take great concepts and twist them for abusive puposes. Sometimes, people take from counseling new tools and use them to help them get their needs meet in unhealthy ways.
I'm not sure of your whole story, but I would suggest that you ask your MC to have a release of information with your husband's IC, so that she can have a better idea of what they are working on and ensure that it is congruent to your MC goals.
In DV treatment, we also had the clients sign a release for their partner, so the counselor could talk to you. If his personal recovery, as well as marital recovery is the goal, the more communication, the better.

I am really down about this situation today.

To tell the truth, I cannot really put any boundaries on what he does in IC at all. Nor really would I want to. If he is going to put IC over out M, it is his choice and I feel I have done what I could. Proir to this new IC, I have put up with years of fazes, (and of course, they all blame me as the primary fault.) He picks up one, drops another. It has been so long since he has acted in a manner that I admire, I don�t think I could recognize him if he did.

So this is not new behavior for him.
He also has in the past, only remembered the parts of therapy that are attractive to him.

So I disengage/detach when the psychobabble gets too thick. I also remind him the point of therapy is to GET OUT OF THERAPY.
He is going twice a week (and some nights meditation class - she is organiser of.) I just decided what my options really were- and chose to politely ignore this). But on the other hand I do not have to live with this influence on my life.

I seriously think detaching is the best way no to LB my husband.

psychobabble = bath tub time.
Lecturing = go for a ride
Entitlement/ superior attitude= I have errands

Our MC said outside learning is good, but we should provide info we are reading to each other.

He has never really shared much concrete information with me about what he is doing in IC. So my perception is going to be a speculation at best, because I have to decipher his �catch phrases�.

and

After reading the codependant book, I have decided that the style of therapy that the IC does really has a place for certain people, people who are in crisis and have little hope. (recovery)

So I will stop giving my rude opinion about her style.

But that does not mean I will accept that train of thought for my life.

Update;

I am still having problems "connecting" on any level with my H.

Mind you, he is still in "co dependant" counseling, he thinks he is doing GREAT. (He has told me he is cured of anger)

Apparently, our relationship problems (including his anger issues) only were because I cross healthy boundaries. Yes, he says he has made mistakes, but will not tell me what they are--
and he takes responsibility, but he will not say what for.

I just feel like giving up. I know that MB really requires the two people to be on the same page, very committed to interdependence -- and my husband (and his IC) just feels differently.

Before you start, do not point out to me that I have been here for years, I know it more than anyone.

He is still seeing the co-dependent counselor, and to tell the truth, he really likes her and feels he is doing the right thing for himself.

We are not having issues with alcohol or drugs, and there is no abuse (of any kind) going on in the home. � (Besides arguing which can be abusive in itself, I know.)

I do not agree that the co-dependant theory (I know it has saved a lot of people) is helping my marriage. It is making him a more selfish, "independant person" - this is supposed to be a good thing. I do not find this attractive in the least (like the books say I should - Men LEAD and women will fall all over you to follow.)

For example;

He is acting indifferent if we stay together or not. I will say do you want a separation, he says �If you want to�� It is infuriating and very hard not to LB.
This makes me feel insecure and more anxious and sad. I yell, ignore and cry, (believe me, I could AND HAVE fill his love bank till the cows come home, he would find a fault� and point to it a lot)
Asked if he cares if we stay together or separate, he says �if you want to�. He shrugs and walks off
I have a slight feeling he enjoys this control, which does not bode well for a MB type relationship.

Due to his �healthy boundaries�, he feels he can list my sins at random- if I agree or not � that is it, my points are not even considered.

When he has decided that he has �had enough� he leaves, because �I have stepped over his healthy boundraies� (seriously, I feel like if anything is said in a fashion that he does not like - I am automatically the �boundary breaker�.)

Before you ask, No- he is not worried what MY "healthy boundaries" are.

Dr. Harley agrees with you:

How the Co-dependency Movement is Ruining Marriages

I am sure people here have been in similar situations. Co-dependency is a very popular form of IC, and I can't be the only one in this position.

I have told my H about MB. I have sent him the packets. He says he is "all for it". He is all about his love bank being filled, and I feel he is all for getting his needs met.

He does not see any conflict in the two philosophies. You can not to MB coming from a place of selfishness and independant thinking.

In my opinion, this type of counseling justifies disrespectful judgemtents and selfish behavior- and it gives excuses to ignore the needs of your spouse.

"only you can make you happy"
"I have nothing to do with your happiness"

bullchit, bullchit and blah. At one point I almost accepted that there was something wrong with me, and it was my H's set up of "healthy boundaries" that was the issue.

HOW can someone be so (for lack of a better term) self deluded?

How do you combine the two?

Barbie, I agree your H's IC is working against your marriage, but it's not hopeless. Have you seen my sig line? I couldn't make it work, but I'd like to thinks that folks can, and since you're here, I'd like to help you try. I think if you start disengaging in the power struggles, and start spending 15-20+ hours a week doing fun things together, you two will grow in mutual care, consideration, and thoughtfulness. He'll experience how in a good marriage, that not only are you *not* crossing his "healthy boundaries," but rather you are well worth trusting to defend them.


What is fun about saying this? I know you guys must have some fun, light things to talk about. Do you guys have an intimate physical relationship? I would think that kind of bonding would be a great antidote to those insecure feelings. What do you think?

barbiecat, your H is what Dr Harley calls a freeloader.


If I were you, I would follow Dr Harley's guidelines in When to Call it Quits. That woman ended up turning her marriage around completely using his suggestions. here

Thanks for the reply.
Apparently we can not talk about the relationship at all. 25 years....

We can be having a pretty good time doing something just fine, and then he starts explaining his "I am the boundry setter...you are the rude person who does not/can not understand what that is".
This sets up that he is the "all knowing, rule setter, and I am the somewhat lacking partner".

His very attitude about recovery is what is antagonising.
He is going to lead -- and I will follow... or I will be left behind.
Domestically, I have been in complete charge (along with doing all the work part, too) for 20+ years.

He would like to set up some rules, and gets furious if things do not go his way.

I am not the "train me" type of person.

Well...update.

Things have been going a little better. My H sent me "the policy of joint agreement" and asked "Can we do this?"

This sounds well and good, but he is still trying to cherry pick his way through MB.

He is still in IC counseling, and he considers it positive. I think it does not jive with MB concepts.

He beleives he is "cured". I am still unbelieveably uncomfortable with his attitude tword marriage.

He says he is "here" for the marriage, but he considers "putting himself first" as his top priority.

Through his IC, they have labeled this behavior as "boundary setting". Which, although sounds good... I beleive it can be construed as a way to neglect your partners needs.

I am still not on listed on his bank accounts. He is setting a "boundary for budgeting" --

We had a breakthrough on a former problem, tho. He has vistied dating sites in the past. (busted by computer)
He says he takes responsibility... BUT (I believe this comes from his counseling) He did it BECAUSE I did this or that. Or he did it because he was "lonely".

I think his IC provides him with not only excuses, but that he is "right" in his beliefs.

I told him he has to take responsibility for his own actions, that explaining himself only looks like he is NOT taking responsibility and blaming me for his choices.

He refuses to even consider my opinion on this, but believes he is making "healthy" choices by doing do.
At couseling last week out MC picked up on this -(his explaning away the reasons he does things)... and she pointed it out. -- without any input from me.

He did not like it, but I hope he heard it.

I am still at a loss.

I would stop lecturing him, Barbie. And I would EMBRACE his offer to use the POJA. This is the answer to your marriage problems. Just think, Barbie, he would stop doing things that make you so unhappy. The bank account issue would have to be negotiated, the IC, everything. START SMALL and then allow this work up to the tougher issues. Don't look a gift horse in the mouth.

Do you have all the information about the POJA? We can help you with this, but it is the solution to your marriage problems.

Once he begins to see the benefits of POJA and fully understands it, he will have to recognize how ridiculous it is to have "boundaries." There can be no boundaries, except in the case of abuse. But you need to EVOLVE to that place.

We do quite a bit better with things like POJA.

I know I am 180 from where I used to be (thinking about running the house, buying things and the like).

If this is an evolution, we are still not walking upright yet.

That's not taking responsibility for his own actions. That is classic "blame the victim" mentality.

Does he think an abuser is justified in beating his wife if she burns the toast? Ask him what he thinks of that.

OK.

My MIL is up from Florida for the summer. We have never been close, but I do care for her- She is 82 now.

Tonight is her birthday, we are going down for dinner and cake,I will see her tomorrow, I am throwing a double (tripple with her) birthday party for 25 people.

I found out my H's brother is going to be there. I have issues with him. He has not only advised, but loaned my H money to divorce. I do not consider him a friend to me, my marriage - or my children.
For 20 years I have been hospitable and polite to this guy and his family. He is a former (?) cheater, now divorced/remarried.
Tho my husband "reconsidered" his (line in the sand threats) divorce actions the next day,

I don't want anything to do with this chump.

I like and miss my MIL, do not want to hurt her feelings, but why would I want to spend an eve looking at his "big bro's" mug?
I bought a gift/card
wrapped it.
Made from scratch a chocolate/hazelnut/sourcream and rasberry filled cake - for her on Sat.
I don't mind if my husband and daughter go down there tonight..

I am hurt that my H does not think of the consequences that are left for me. He wants me to "get over it".

He is upset that I do not want his brother(s) at any function -- and boy, do we entertain.
Am I wrong for not shaking this off?

Back in the day, 13 years ago, this bro was going thru a terrible divorce and indicated something - I believe inappropriate to me, I told my husband at the time, we chalked it up to "divorce" and poor judgenent and forgot it.

or I did until the money loan. Not that it is an issue now, he has never said or done anything "creeper" since, it bugs the he(( outa me.

should I stay or should I go?

Awesome!!! This is the first step. I am dancing with joy for you guys!


We all do, at first. Every single one of us. It takes awhile.


I know. The solution to neglect, though, is you can negotiate to find ways he can meet your needs that he will enjoy. This will not happen all at once. But with the POJA as your guide, you can get there.

I'd tell this man yes and heap praise and admiration on him for suggesting it!

Start small, Barbie. Don't tackle the big stuff until you have greater skills at tackling the small stuff. My H and I had a huge fight in the grocery store just learning to negotiate grocery choices.

Can you persuade your H to sign up for the online course?

Thanks Markos and ML

I guess this little glimmer is very positive, Morkos, your advice reminded me to count blessings, not offences....

I know everyone, (including me) would like to "cherry pick".

Heck -- I have been MBing for years, I still have LB's and AOs. Tho admittedly not as severe or as much now.

Went to dinner with H, DD, BIL, SIL and MIL.
It went OK.
My BIL tried talking a few times to me. I avoided conversation.
I still have a hard time walking the line of what is appropriate there.
Under no circumstances do I want to give the impression that what he did (supporting and giving money for a divorce) is "OK" by my standards.

...... just 'taint.
H wants me to let it all "go". How do you unring that bell?

I have gotten out the LB book, and will look again at the online lessons. He may be at a place where he is willling to give MB a try.

thanks.

Barbie, what is appropriate is for you and your H to respectfully negotiate any contact with your BIL. It is very disrespectful of your H to tell you to "let it go." But you do need to let it go FOR NOW. He is interested in learning the POJA. Use that as a hook to get him into Marriage Builders. That is how I got my H on board. That was the springboard to really turning my marriage around.

If you can, do the online program so you can get Dr Harley's help to turn him around. It will make a huge difference and it will happen fast.

Barbiecat,

Sorry to hear about your recent marital problems. After reading through a couple of your threads I can't say I'm surprised. I think your husband is once again showing you and your family exactly who he really is versus this being any kind of mistake or temporary aberration. You should be in a real plan B, making plans for yourself for the rest of your life, divorcing this man-boy and posting to people that know how to help you versus continuing down this path of trying to mix and match every book, program, wayward peer advice forum out there.

The most shocking thing to me is that you went to DB and tried to 180 him. I'm sure he thought that was great. Nomoremrnice guy narcissists just love it when everyone acts all happy and everything while they walk all over you. You should be in Plan B with absolutely NO CONTACT with him. You should have done this about 6 years ago...but better late than never.

Please know that my wife and I are also in the Detroit Metropolitan area and that if you need help with snooping on your cheating husband we might be able to help you out.

Again, I'm sorry you find yourself in this position again.

Mr. W

Let me also add that identifying OW IS important.

Your wayward husband is in a absolute rush to divorce because he has, no doubt, told this OW that he is already separated from a completely loveless and horrible marriage. This OW doesn't know he's married to anyone that cares she is dating him. He wants to get the ball rolling quickly so that the truth will line up sort of with what she's been told.

I don't recommend trying to save your marriage but busting him and exposing OW may just ruin their relationship and if saving your marriage is still a goal...the best shot you've got is by busting the OW, exposing it and letting exposure destroy their relationship. At the very least, perhaps your soon to be ex-husband won't marry or otherwise bring OW around your children and he can repair his relationship with them. If he goes with this OW...they'll likely never forgive him. (and your daughters need to know who OW is so they can protect themselves from her too).

I'm so sorry, Barbie.

Look at the date on these posts of yours. Do you still want this in another four years?

Four years is generous, Indie. Barbie registered in March, 2008 which was 2 years after he cheated in 2006. This has been at least an 8 year ordeal.

He needs to be exposed at work. OW is likely a co-worker and their employer here in Detroit may even fire them both should they get busted. This is why he's so gung ho to hurry along a divorce. IMO, getting him fired is the only chance Barbie has to actually save their marriage. It's the only way he'll wake up to what's truly important in life...his family.

Mr. W

Will anyone be willing to IM??

I have threads you can read to catch up on. please

BC

IM located. Thanks to all who have read this post.

Looking for IM training link.

Here it is >>>>> Intermediary Training School

thank you, LWFH!