I have been an MB junkie for about 6 years! Getting it to work: that�s the trick!!

Here�s the story, Married 3 yrs, 2nd marriage, 4 kids between us. Step-parent thing is going good � it�s the marriage that�s rocky.

So: I try to tell him how I feel, �I�m not happy,� or �I�d like to work on our quality of conversation. I get frustrated when you interrupt me or change the subject when I�m trying to share.�

His latest defense is a good offense: �Well, I�m not happy about X.� or �You are constantly DJ�ing and I�m tired of it.� I am working on my LBs, but he considers things DJs that aren�t: e.g. he thinks snooping is a DJ.

I dislike him so much I won�t go to bed when he does � I wait a few hours (like now) til he�s asleep, then go to bed. Then I get up really early and go downstairs to the couch before he�s awake. I don�t like hearing him breathe, I don�t want him to touch me.

We�ve had 2 or 3 good weeks in the past 2 years: once after Dr. Harley answered us on the radio, and once after I told the pastor how much we are struggling. It�ll be ok for a while, then downhill again.

I asked him once what the problem is in our marriage. He said, �You complain too much, your expectations are too high and you are stubborn.�

Where do I go from here? I�m working on my LBs � but our problems precede the LBs, and I really do strive to stay composed and respectful, even when he yells. I mostly try to avoid his company so I won�t get upset. I actually think he loves me (when I�m not complaining) � but I don�t love him, haven�t for a long time.

Thanks for your advice.

Did you marry your father in law who you were having the affair with?

Who is this new husband? Is this your adultery partner, your own FIL? Whatever happened with that?

No - the affair died, I ended it years ago, worst mistake of my life

This is a totally new marriage - we agreed to all the MB concepts, I've soaked myself in them over the past 6 years. In fact, I told my H about the whole ugly truth on our first date. We did the History Questionnaire, everything.

Why aren't you happy? What are you comparing your reality to?

MaritalBliss: I want to be in love with my husband, like when we were dating, or even more. I know my ENs - conversation being one. I know the LBs - I'd like them to stop poking holes in the love bucket.

I guess I compare our reality to Dr. & Joyce Harley on the radio every day. They have such love in their voices for each other, they speak with such kindness and respect, and really listen to each other. I want that kind of love. You can just hear them smiling when they talk to each other.

They are considerate with every caller, too. It's therapeutic just to listen to them.

I just want to be known, seen.

Is that what you're asking?

Please tell us about the 15-20 hours of undivided attention you and your husband spend doing nice things with eachother.

Thank you for the question, HappyHeart!

We had been scheduling time earlier this year - but it was always me asking for the time. It started to feel like nagging/begging, so I quit asking. Then I counted for a few months - we averaged 8 hours/week.

When we do spend time, we go out to eat 1x per week and mainly talk about work. This can be fun but sometimes monotonous. We go shopping together sometimes (2x or so per month) and that makes us happy because he or I will get something new, so that's fun. We also have symphony season tickets, so 1x per month we get dressed up and go there - but we don't really interact during the performance (supposed to be quiet).

We've tried working out together - did P90X over the summer - but we don't enjoy the same types of exercise. I love yoga/pilates and he likes more cardio exercise.

Does going to church count? I've never thought it did, since we spend the time around our friends there - not really giving each other UA.

We go on drives on warm weekends in the summer, which he loves - we have a little convertible. I enjoy it, but don't consider it UA because we can't talk when we're in the car: too much happening outside, he'll interrupt to point out a truck going by or a bird or something and I get my feelings hurt. So I usually sit in silence listening to him comment on traffic, the weather, etc.

I think the bottom line is the quality of our conversations. I like to go deep, which is not natural for him. I also don't like being interrupted - like the other day when I was sharing about how I miss my dad, getting all choked up (he's dead) and he interrupted to point out a man walking around outside the building. Grrr.

How can we improve our conversations? How do we create times that satisfy both of us - times that I will look forward to, instead of dread?

Thanks for any insight! I know you guys out there know how to put MB into practice - please share your wisdom!

So....anyone have thoughts on this situation? I guess it may not seem 'sensational' but I'd love some insight. We've been struggling with the same problems for a long time now and I'm getting really, really tired....

Have you read these?
Conversation is Boring
Conversation

What do you think?

What are his top EN? Are you meeting them or are you in the state of conflict?

Thanks for writing back, Brainhurts!

"Men and women don't have too much difficulty talking to each other during courtship. That's a time of information-gathering for both partners. Both are highly motivated to discover each other's likes and dislikes, personal background, current
Learn to meet the need of Conversation
interests and plans for the future. But after marriage, many women find that the man who would spend hours talking to her on the telephone, now seems to have lost all interest in talking to her, and spends his spare time watching television or reading."

This is us. No longer is conversation spent "investigating or informing each other," and getting his undivided attention is often difficult. It's not so much "boring" as non-existent.

We are in withdrawal. His main problem is, "your expectations are too high." Mine is our issues that I'd like to work on. We just got back from vacation where we spent no UA at all - all kids.

He asked to sleep in our bed tonight, but I told him I'm not comfortable being near him (he slept on the couch last night for the first time). He wants me to sleep on the couch because his back hurts. I told him I don't want to sleep on the couch, so he said he'll move out tomorrow.

I'm scared.

So what are you going to do for him?

Why wouldn't you let him back in the bed?

How are you going to work on getting out of withdrawl?

Three States of the Mind in Marriage

You do want to stay married, correct?

Do you want to put in the real work? You're here and your husband is not so it has to start with you, correct?

Part of me wants to be married - but much of me doesn't. It's been a pretty difficult 3 years. I guess you could say that I'm ambivalent.

What I really want is for him to show his care for me and this marriage. I wish he was the one posting here, trying to help us. It's exhausting always being the one trying.

Then again, if I don't try, who will? I went downstairs and talked to him. He said he's willing to do counseling - we'll have to over-the-phone it w. S. Harley since no counselors here do the MB principles. It's very expensive, but it would be worth it if we could actually have a loving relationship.

I'll go talk to him again and see if he'll come up...Thanks again for your reply and good questions, Brainhurts.

Brainhurts, you asked about his top needs and how I'm meeting them. Tops are SF, RC and Admiration. We go out and do fun things whenever he wants, he doesn't ask for much SF but I never say no. Admiration is tougher - he has been doing things for 1.5 years that I do not admire, and I can't say that I find him admirable. So, he's not getting much of that lately.

In HNHN, Dr. Harley suggests developing interest in HIS interests, as a way to help conversation. Does he have any interests that you've identified, and tried to get smart on?

Coaching with the Harleys is well worth the money. You said it, you will have to drive this marriage to a wonderful marriage.

From what I understand is that Steve Harley is very good with getting husbands on board.

Keep us updated.

You have read this How to meet Emotional Needs?

Radio Clip about how to complain in your marriage

This was a good radio clip from The Harleys on how to complain properly. The husband is in the state of withdraw.

What do you think?

Thanks Brain Hurts, for the radio clip and the article!

I heard the clip on today's show...it was good. I am a little nervous to do the Plan A thing then separating, mainly because of all the complications/financial/splitting stuff up trauma. I am also dreading doing the Plan A part - I just feel sick inside, I can't even make eye contact with him, let alone meet his ENs for 3 weeks...maybe if I talk to S Harley first, he'll be able to motivate me to try.

As to the "complaining properly" segment, I was on the radio twice last year for this very topic: Dr. Harley encouraged me to continue complaining "respectfully."

Yes, my H is tired of the complaining. His problem is that I complain. Mine is the things I complain about. He thinks its disrespectful to tell him that certain actions hurt me. He believes the POJA is "flawed," and he has great resentment about 'giving up' things that are important to him - he calls giving things up a Love Buster.

Sad Dude - I have tried picking topics he likes - work is one. But it gets monotonous talking about this one thing. And he constantly interrupts me, doesn't listen, and cuts me off to point out inane things happening around us. It's not that we can't figure out what to talk about: it's that he has a hard time being a listener, empathizing, or staying focused. We both suspect that maybe he's ADD, but understanding it doesn't make it better.

OK - I will call Steve tomorrow & ask if he thinks there is hope. I am pretty wiped, but if he can actually get my H on board, I will try.

Thanks so much for the feedback! It helps so much to have others looking at this situation, and encouraging me.

I'm so glad you are going to call Steve.

Keep up the hard work and you will reap the benefits.

Does your husband want to stay married?

Hi BrainHurts!

Thank you. I'm not sure I'm working hard, other than staying polite. He is distant, so am I. We had dinner alone together, and I kept the conversation very light and pleasant, even when he changed the subject abruptly after I'd shared something personal. I thanked him for a fun evening.

But when we got home, he left and went to read alone. I put the kids to bed and he came upstairs 2 hours later without a word to me, laid down and started snoring. I'll sleep elsewhere, since I feel less lonely when I'm alone than when he's near, but not "here" you know?

I'm not sure if he wants the marriage. I know he wants happiness (don't we all?) but his version of a happy marriage is one with no complaints, where he gets to do whatever he wants and his wife is fine with it all. I think he wants to be married to himself, since he understands himself, his feelings, his desires. I can't blame him for this. I am very different than him, and it's surely difficult to accommodate someone with very different feelings. But I don't think I'm worse than most women - I think I'm pretty normal. And I work hard to accommodate him, though his feelings are very different. I just don't understand why it's not going both ways?


Anyway, I did write again to Dr. Harley and Joyce. I am part of the MB "Radio Family" since I've been on, so my hope is they'll help me understand my next steps.

Can you afford some sessions with Steve Harley?

What about doing a few weeks of Plan A as you prepare for Plan B?

Have you read when to call it quits?
When to Call it Quits Part 1
Part 2
Part 3

Hi BrainHurts, thanks for asking.

I called and got a package of sessions w. Steve Harley today. We start next week.

It was very interesting, filling out the Love Bank Inventory...I was surprised by the questions, but sad I couldn't really say I agreed with any of them I don't daydream about my spouse, for instance.

I am hopeful. At least it's real, solid help. If he can help get my H on board, awesome. Having a little hope goes a long way. And if he can't get my H on board, at least I'll have emotional support through whatever comes next.

I'll post after our first session. In the meantime, I'm trying to keep things light (as close to Plan A as I can get right now). It is sad that I'm still being ignored day and night at home, but we did have dinner tonite and talked pleasantly. But now we're back home and he's downstairs with his book & I'm alone in the bedroom.

Oh well. I can be happy on my own - just would rather have someone to share a life with.

I'm so happy for you that you will be coaching with Steve Harley. Keep us updated.

So if you had a pleasant dinner why didn't you go downstairs with him and continue some UAT together? Ask him to play a board game or play some cards?

We start counseling tomorrow with Steve Harley. I'll keep you posted.

Dr. Harley answered my email to him, and also referred to it on the radio yesterday (4.4.12). He said there's not much hope unless my H becomes a Buyer - he says he's a Renter now.

We'll see what plan Steve comes up with for us. I'll post tomorrow!

UPDATE! We had our first session. My job is to stop trying to be the marriage coach. Love this!

We'll see how the weekend goes. I'll give any updates that arise. So far though, I am hopeful. Steve is very motivational.

I'm a fitness person, so his analogy really makes sense to me. I just have to start by doing the exercises even when it's painful, and just push through to see results.

If anyone has any advice while we do MB Coaching, or insight into the things we might bump into, I would love to hear it.
I am relieved he didn't tell me I have to start meeting his ENs...that would have sent me over the edge.

Thanks, Z.

This is fantastic news. They say Steve is very good.

What did he tell your husband?

I would just keep doing what Steve tells you.

Can you give us more detail on what he means about "stop being a marriage coach?"

Listen to Steve. That's my advice. My H and I worked with him for 6 months, and he is GREAT. Just a little funny for you on how he works: my H complained a LOT about DS; said he needed lots and lots of DS to feel love, down to a chair being in the correct spot at all times. Steve asked him to look into OCD, and had us make a list of chores we each wanted done around the house, and how often to do them. H made a HUGE list, I don't know what he was thinking, but then Steve told us: "Okay, now each of you do the things on your OWN list." bwa-ha-ha, he has a great way of getting people to look at their own negative contributions. My H attempted to complete his list, and could not, because he spent SIX HOURS on the floor ALONE. A floor, I have to say, that was already vacuumed and mopped weekly, at minimum, sometimes more often.

Now we have a roomba. And H is much more relaxed about the house, which is always comfortable for non-OCD individuals.

CWMI - That is awesome! I wish I could figure out the laughing emoticon, I would put it here.

I've heard Dr. Harley say that if DS is the complaint, then the guy is really reaching for something. But I guess everybody is different, huh?

BrainHurts: Steve told us both the same thing, since I talked to my H about it. He told both of us that it's HIS job to be the marriage coach, and we are going to go through "orientation."

My H actually admitted today that "the way Steve explained the POJA, I'm kind of coming around to agree with it." I was so excited, but I just tried to play it cool, like, "really? hm."

He said, "I can choose what I do. I can choose to do stuff that bothers you, or choose not to. You can't make me 'not' do stuff." This is true. We've had that conversation a gazillion times. Somehow it comes better from another guy - or maybe just any third party. What is up with that?

You strike fear in my heart, CWMI - 6 months at $200/hr would send us into bankruptcy! I hope we can get this down quickly and go on vacation with the rest of the money

I will keep y'all updated! So far so good. I guess it's way better to spend your money on something that will change your life for the better - we spent $750 on the whole family swimming with dolphins on vacation two weeks ago - sheesh. At least this spend will benefit us long-term. (OK, Dave Ramsey folks, we saved up for it - but it still hurt to pay it!)

"the guy is really reaching for something"---would you expound on this, or provide a link to the article/broadcast where this was discussed? I am very interested in this, as you can imagine.

The money, imho, is well spent when there is a reluctant and hard-headed spouse involved. If your H gets seriously involved after a few sessions with Steve, I suggest you enroll in the online program where you have a coach for a full year, but are responsible for much of your own work on the program. It will save you money, and you will still have a coach to keep you both accountable.

But getting with Steve was an excellent move. He is fantastic!

CWMI - great idea! Online coaching when we're ready - cheaper and effective when we're both on-board.



I will check into that - I heard him say it on the radio in the past few weeks. I think he said it twice. More later when I dig it out.

I am hopeful for the first time in a long time. We'll see how the weekend goes - it's typically exhausting to be civil when we're around each other all day, but this weekend people will be around, so that might help. You know, the good ole' avoidance strategy!


OK, I'm so excited that I learned how to "quote" something.

OK, so just had session #2 w. Steve this morning. We are level-setting the 'design of marriage' and I got all choked up about it all, just listening to him. Since I've never seen it personally, it's like unicorns to me: beautiful, elusive, mythical.

I want to believe so badly. I hope I'll see one someday. Sounds way better than being on my own - which has certainly had its appeal here lately.

H has his with Steve tomorrow - we'll compare notes then start 'exercising' after that.

More to come in the continuing saga of marital recovery!

So now I have a 'philosophical' question: I picked a Renter to marry, unbeknownst to me! We talked POJA, we talked POUA, we talked PORH, we did the History Questionnaire & read the books together while dating/engaged. My H agreed to it all!

But when time had passed and various issues have arisen, he doesn't agree and we're working to get him on board. I've been told that this is what Renters do.

So my question is: how did I get tricked? And how does anyone discern between a Renter and a Buyer before they get married???

I'd like to ask on the dating forum, but I'm afraid it will look like I'm interested in dating - I am NOT. But it bothers me that I was "tricked." If anyone knows how to help others stay away from Renters, I'd love to know how!

It's painful and expensive trying to convert a Renter to a Buyer, and if I could save someone else the grief, I'd love to do it.

The closest I've found is the book, "How Not to Marry a Jerk." But I'd much rather have the MB version.

Any thoughts????

Wow Zhamila! I'm so glad you are counseling with SH!

I don't know what to add regarding your situation, but just know I'm here cheering you on.

Goooooooo Zhamila!

Hi Anointed! Thanks for the encouragement!

(Big Smile)

Hope today was good for you!

Unless you are planning to pick out a new man anytime soon, you are distracting yourself with those kinds of questions. At this point, you can't go back and re-pick, ya know?

Focus on your tasks at hand, this is no time for existential questions. Quit gazing at your navel and trying to figure out why. Figure out WHAT to DO.

Well, if I'm posting here, you can bet it's cause we aren't getting UA. We had dinner out tonight alone, and wouldn't you know it: We started to have an intimate conversation, and he asked me, "what did Steve say that made you get all choked up?" regarding the design for marriage. I started to answer - it was hard to explain - and he put his hand on his blackberry because he thought that maybe, just MAYBE, there was an emergency call. (and no, he's not an ER doctor on call - this is habit he has chosen to continue)

The whole evening: ruined.

Seriously?!? We just went through this Friday night - same thing, he asked, 'what do you want in our relationship?' as I started to answer, he literally pulled out his phone & started reading email.

Wow.

When will I learn that everything is more important to him than this marriage? (sarcasm)

Why do I even care.

At least you cry, Anointed. I cried months ago. Now I'm just ticked off.

Good call CWMI - I'm not going to re-pick. But it really bugs me that I was duped.

Actually, existential questions help me relax. I get to stop for a few moments and ponder, theorize, and analyze. Some people are wired that way, and I'm one of them. If I ever start a blog, it will be all philosophical conundrums, and NO ONE will read it!

Anyway, I am focusing on what I should DO. My job is to keep my nose clean (no LBs), and to consider putting my H 'first.' Not first as in 'above' but first as in 'ingredients in a bowl while baking.'

Thanks for the reminder.

CWMI - I am still looking for that DS radio clip! I promise I'll find it and send along!

When you are opening up to him and he looks at his phone, have you tried gently saying:

"Sweetheart, when I open up and share with you my deepest emotional thoughts and you look at your phone I feel as if you aren't listening. Should we hold off on this discussion until we can discuss it without distractions?"

Zhamila,

I am so happy you decided to contact Steve! I am rooting for you and your marriage!

I completely understand what you have mentioned about you hubby interrupting you and his possible ADD (tough and major LB for me as well) My H used to do this to me constantly! I would be trying to speak and he would interrupt and cut me off to say things completely unrelated to what I was talking about...mid sentence at that!

It was very upsetting to me and I would try to "gently" request he try not to do that...still continued...then tried less gentle reminders (I know not good on my part) still continued!

I won't go into all the long details on your thread, but I eventually went into withdrawal too....for years! I honestly thought my marriage simply couldn't be "fixed" and figured once we finished raising our children we would simply go our separate ways.

I am happy to say my H and I are out of withdrawal and working on our marriage again! He is really making every effort to be better at conversation, he does occasionally interrupt BUT now with just the gentle reminder he stops and apologizes! The problem has improved so much it's hard to believe! My H has ADD also, but he makes major LB deposits with me just by working so hard not to interrupt me and actually listen.

We discovered a new trick accidentally that also works well for us. If we find that we are not communicating well, as in not hearing each other, misunderstanding, and on the road towards a full out AO, we start texting each other, right in the same house..might sound silly but it has really worked well for us, and HE actually finds it easier to really hear each other this way. We are usually able to resolve a sticky situation quite simply this way.

Also at your next session with Steve why don't you ask him?

I bet he gives you a response close to what Brits_Brat has suggested.

Hmmmm, thanks for the good insight & experience TisMeAgain!

Yep, have tried "gentle reminders," over and over. Have also tried "not so gentle" - you are right, those don't work either.

Withdrawal was next for us, too. Thank goodness for SH!

How did you turn the corner? What finally gave your H the motivation to become more aware?

Yes, I have reminded him gently: time after time after time.

Thoughtless behavior repeated over and over - with no hope of improvement - and a spouse who believes that "our biggest problem is your complaints," however gently stated, is on a death march.

SH is helping us - motivating us both - to address these issues. I can't do this myself. My H will have to participate and I am hoping he will!

SH actually told me that UA is not wise for us right now. Crazy, huh? We're so broken, we'd probably just do more damage than good until we figure out how to stop LB'ing and start EN'ing.

I guess we're kind of in Intensive Care right now.

Thanks for the encouragement & advice everyone. My H and I are going to compare notes on our last 2 sessions tonight. We'll see how it goes!

How did it go, Zhamila?

Thanks for asking, Anointed! We kept it short and sweet, and it went well....until he interrupted me. I just said, "you interrupted me," and stopped talking. Then he sighed and fell asleep on the couch in our room after staring at the ceiling for a while.

So we ended the evening alone.

Monday is our next session, so we have another weekend to get through. But at least we hugged today, which is a BIG DEAL. And we've filled out our ENQ's and LBQ's for SH, which helped me rationally think through the stuff that bugs me.

When I see the list of stuff, I feel less overwhelmed because I realize that we could knock it all out in a few weeks and just go be happy!

I'll update you if we make progress this weekend! Thanks for the encouragement, Anointed!

Zhamila,
I just wanted to say that your H sounds a lot like mine. Your post has helped me alot and I will be following it. I don't know if I will have anything to add, except maybe sympathize with what you are going through. ((Hugs))

Zhamila, I have been catching up on your thread and think I recognized something in the above exchange. I should first say that you are in excellent hands and getting great advice on this thread!

I think I recognize what happened above in your conversation with your husband and why he yanked his phone out. The basic issue is that he is not "in love" right now and I think you realize that. But more importantly, I bet he gets very distracted if you don't get to the point right away, doesn't he? Have you heard Dr Harley and Joyce go through this? It drives Joyce crazy that Dr Harley goes off on his "rabbit chases" and she has to bring him back down. He tries hard to get back on track.

I am the same way. If someone doesn't get right to the point, they will quickly lose my attention. That doesn't mean you can't explain your position in full, it just means I have to GET IT right up front. We do the same things in sales; I work for a soft drink company. When I sell something, I have to get to the point in the first 2 sentences or I will lose their attention. Once I get their attention, I have their interest and can spend all the time I want supporting my point.

Do you see what I mean? If you learn to get to the point right up front, you will be more successful at holding his attention. Along these lines:

DH: "what did Steve say that made you get all choked up?"

Zhamila: It was so endearing to hear him describe marriage in that way <-------that is the point

DH: can you elaborate?

Then you have piqued his interest and he will ask questions. If he has to listen to a long explanation just to get the point, he will quickly lose interest. Do you think that describes him?

And as far as pulling out the phone, just say "please don't pull out the phone when are together. It upsets me." That is all my H had to say. I am a strong advocate of just saying it straight out.

I have a question about your husband. Where and how did you meet? Has he ever had an affair? How did his last marriage end?

Loves2011, Thank you for the hugs! This means so much to me. I will pray for your marriage while I pray for mine, and Anointed's.

{{{Loves2011}}} (that's a "We're in this together" hug!)

Thanks for the observation, MelodyLane. I will try this. And I think we might leave our phones in the car when we're out...this seems to work better.

I do remember one time when I said, teary-eyed: "I was so sad when my Dad died." and he literally turned around, looked out the window and said, "I wonder what that guy is doing?"

There is such a deep sense of betrayal when you reach out to another person, and they completely "miss" you. When you realize after many, many of these betrayals that you are invisible to your spouse: the one you thought would care for you.

I grieve daily that I do not have the best friend I wanted. I spent time today with a girlfriend: what love, empathy, and kindness we shared! I felt so cared for, so "heard" and "seen" - she also encouraged me to look for the good, to try to be patient.

I want that kind of friendship with my H. I'm not sure if it is possible, but I will keep trying until I run out of gas.

We first met online, then found that we go to the same church. We dropped contact, then 9 months later - when we were 'ready' - we decided to meet at church in person. (It's a big church) We dated for 6 months, got engaged, and married 3 months later. Probably too fast, but our pastor recommended a speedy courting period.

I don't think he had an affair in his last marriage - he says he did not. He was an alcoholic married to a drug addict. He quit drinking, she kept up her lifestyle, then things spiraled down. They lived completely independent lives, she had an affair and he ended the marriage.

I have read material on recovered alcoholics, how sometimes the patterns continue even after they quit drinking. I remember asking him one time if he ever did anything when he was younger, just to make his parents happy. He said, "why would I do that?"

I had very abusive/neglectful parents growing up, but I still tried to be kind to my mother when I was old enough, so this response did surprise me.

ANYHOO, I agree that he's probably not "in love" with me right now. So that makes two of us.

One more thing, Question:

How are we gonna get past this sense that I need to see some "proof" here? You know, I didn't lose my love for him 'cause he was being so great to me all this time. And any little thing sets us all the way back to deep resentment.

You know, I'm tired of getting burned. Yes, he made me coffee this morning. and that was nice.

But dang it, I just don't feel like jumping up and down and rejoicing over that! Putting myself all the way out there again, and getting bonked again!

I need to see REAL and LASTING change - not just another round of "be nice for a week, have sex" then start the downward spiral of ignoring me, neglect, blame and anger, and me sleeping on the couch or floor again, trying to avoid his presence.

Honestly, when I hear Dr. Harley talk about "Just Compensation" for an affair, I say, "AMEN!" ....well, "Just Compensation" for ongoing neglect and betrayal ain't a bad idea either!

Just sayin'

I'm sure I'll get some people chastising me for this rant.....

Zhamila, breaking down into tears over a death makes people VERY VERY uncomfortable. I try to NEVER do that to people because it makes them so uneasy. I refer to that as "inflicting my grief on others." Not fair! I am sure it just makes him very uneasy, so I would stop doing that. People just don't know what to say. Bringing up past tragedies and crying over them is an enemy of good conversation.

And do you really think it helps you at all by talking about your dad and bringing yourself to tears? I don't see how. Bringing hurts of the past into the present is not healthy. It is just a downer for you and others. I have found that I get over tragedies so much more effectively by NOT revisiting them.

Hopefully this program can help him turn this around... I would give it more time.

MelodyLane, I cannot agree with you this time. If there is anyone on earth a person should be able to share their deepest feelings with, it is your spouse. I'm not burdening some stranger on the street: this is my husband.

MB is about honesty. I wasn't bringing up a "mistake of the past" in order to criticize my spouse. I was bringing up a sadness that I had experienced. There is a great difference between the two.

Here's an excerpt from one of Dr. Harley's articles on conversation:

"Remember how it used to be? You and your wife used to be fascinated with each other. You would support and encourage each other. Empathy and understanding were almost effortless. You had many common interests to talk about. Somehow, you need to resurrect the kindness, consideration, empathy and interest you once shared in your conversations with each other.

I suggest that you investigate the facts of each other's personal histories, present experiences and plans for the future. Also investigate each other's attitudes and emotional reactions to those facts.

To withhold accurate information about your inner self prevents intimacy and leaves the need for meaningful conversation unmet.

By reaching an understanding of each other, your conversation will break through the superficiality barrier. You become emotionally connected to each other, and able to bring out each other's best feelings, and avoid the worst."

In fact, the Fourth Friend of Good Conversation is "Giving each other undivided attention." If anything was "not fair" about our conversation, it was the lack of undivided attention.

My mistake was in sharing with someone who is not interested: my H.

Maybe you should bring this up with Steve on your next session?

Be careful of your DJ's of your H.

ML, I will try. It's getting critical, and every day brings fresh hurt. He really doesn't want to know about the hurt, I can see him getting more and more fed up.

In fact, on the way to the symphony tonight, he said something disrespectful to me. I said, "That's not earning you points, and we need to get some points." He immediately responded, "Well you need points, too."

You know, 'cause it's all about him, always. You know, 'cause my feelings never matter, just his.



...And I'm sleeping in my son's room, and he pokes his head in the door and asks, "Why are you in here?" So I ask, "Do you really want to know?" and he says, "Yeah."

"Because I get hurt around you, and sometimes I need to protect myself from the hurt."

"Fine." - he closes the door, leaves.

...nah. He didn't really want to know.

Sorry but I disagree. You can see your husband was very uncomfortable with your grief and it ruined your conversation with him. You DID burden him with your grief. Unless your goal is to make him uncomfortable, I wouldn't do that to him again. One of the enemies of good conversation is bringing up unpleasant subjects. Being "honest" does not mean dragging up every unpleasant thing from the past. Dr Harley even tells people who have been victims of affairs NOT to bring up the affair after the truth is known. And why is that? Because it is unpleasant and ruins the conversation.

Trying to force him to endure such displays of grief is not an approach that works with him.

Proverbs 30: 21-23

�Under three things the earth trembles,
under four it cannot bear up:
a servant who becomes king,
a fool who is full of food,
an unloved woman who is married,
and a maidservant who displaces her mistress."

The earth is trembling.

Does another wife out there know how to strike a balance between dependence upon the Lord for our needs v. our need to be loved by our H's?

I keep messing up, and going too far to one or the other. Advice welcomed...

"You know, 'cause it's all about him, always. You know, 'cause my feelings never matter, just his. "

Yet in your previous post you indicated his feelings don't matter when it comes to his discomfort with your grief even though you can clearly see how uneasy he is. You expect empathy from him but afford him none.

I am very surprised that you dont understand how hard it for most people to endure displays of grief. That shows a lack of empathy on your part too. Do you realize that?

Thanks BrainHurts - I will watch my DJs.
And I'll ask Steve about it tomorrow.

Sheesh, posting near midnight is not the best time to share - it's all emotion and nothing rational.

Glad to hear your perspective, ML, thanks for elaborating. I'll ask SH about it in our session tomorrow, too. I want to make sure I understand this concept.

Zhamila, wouldn't you agree that makes him uncomfortable? By your own admission it made him so uneasy he quickly changed the subject. You can see it does not deliver a positive benefit to your conversation. Dr Harley has told women on his radio show who cry alot around their husbands to learn to stop it because it is an enemy of good conversation. This is the same thing.

Why not focus on making your converstation pleasant for BOTH of you instead of criticizing him for not being empathetic enough?

I know how it makes people feel when someone discusses a painful death and breaks down into tears. When my son was killed, I saw first hand how hard it was on others to see my grief. And it also kept me griefstricken to revisit the pain. When I stopped going there, I felt much better faster.

From my perspective, you would BOTH benefit if you stop talking about it. He wouldn't feel so uneasy around you and you would feel better sooner. A win/win for both.

Thanks again, ML. Our posts kept overlapping!

Just to clarify, this was not a bawling fit. I very quietly said the thing about my dad. There were tears coming to my eyes (I do not cry easily) but they hadn't fallen. I wasn't crying, screaming or otherwise emoting in a 'display.'

As to my lack of empathy, I fully agree. I am not being empathetic to him at all lately. I guess I think it's "his turn" to show some empathy. My Taker has taken over.

This is very bad, because it's not going to help us at all.

But, it was a display of grief. And it DID make him uneasy. It makes many people very uneasy. That is my point. I understand it is hard to empathetic when you are at war. The more in love you are, the more empathetic you are so I am sure it will come!

Thanks ML!

Looking forward to being in love again, and more empathetic!

This whole thing is pretty disrespectful. The first part screams to me the whole "okay, son, you get three dollars this week because you only earned three stars on your chore chart."

How did you expect him to respond? Your statement to him says, "I'm keeping score". In my early days at MB, I started tracking on paper everytime I did something that was in my wife's top ENs (like if I washed teh dishes since she has DS as a top EN). I did it so I could make sure I was meeting her needs multiple times a day. Innocent enough, right? Well then I started tracking when she met my needs and then it ended up being "Okay, according to my figures and charts here, I have done X number of things for you and you have only done Y number of things for me. Obviously I'm trying harder and the better spouse." Now I didn't say that but I might as well have. Essesntially you're throwing it in his face that he's not doing good enough.

Use drive by honesty if he says something you find disrespectful. A simple "I would appreciate it if you didn't say ....." There's no need to go any further. If he tries to engage in an argument, you simply say, "I'm just saying I would appreciate if you didn't say......" And then change the subject. Something like "hey! Would you like to bake some cookies together in a bit/" works great.

Stop wtih the whole 'do you really want to konw?' statements. Here was actually a good time to have a conversation but you immediately put him on the defensive by telling him that he's hurting you and you have to protect yourself from him. He prob thinks you're being overly dramatic. You could have reworded that and it very possibly might have had a much better result.

If he didn't want to konw, he wouldn't have asked. Sometimes you have to help your spouse out a bit if you want to have a conversation. Men generally do not want to have emotional-feely type conversations. It makes a lot of us uncomfortable. It doesn't mean we are adverse to expressing how we feel or talking about how things impact us. It doesn't mean we can't support our wife as she expresses how she feels. But you can't approach him like you would one of your female friends. There really is an art to conversation.

Great Radio Clips on good ways to have Intimate Conversation.

Friends and enemies of good conversation.

Radio Clip on Intimate Conversation
Intimate Conversation Segement 2
Intimate Conversation Segment 3

I hope they help.

{{Zhamila}}

Thanks Anointed!

We did our session with SH this morning, and it was really, really good!

He basically said that we are responsible for our own jobs...not our spouse's. He addressed all my questions in the above posts but not as I had expected. He went deeper!

I asked, "How do I deal with times when I'm hurting & don't get an empathetic response?" He had my H and I talk it out. We were both encouraged to do our parts, think about 'creating the environment' so our spouse could be 'in love'.

He didn't let either of us off the hook. And he made it clear that if our goal is to create that environment, and one spouse tells the other the environment is "at risk" - then we should seek to find out why and fix it.

The temptation is always to look at what the other guy is doing. We're supposed to stay focued on what we're doing. Sounds so simple, but that doesn't mean "easy."

But, I have a renewed sense of strength and purpose!

Our next assignment is to go through questionnaires together - which strikes fear in my heart!

We've tried this many times, and it always ends badly. BUT he told us exactly how to do it this time, so we'll see. We have to be "interviewers" and not try to solve the problems, just listen and understand. That's it.

We'll see how it goes!

He had my H and I do that, and it is much better than handing over a piece of paper! Just remember, no emotion, no defending, just gathering info. That is all. Take a breather if you need one. A short one. Set game rules before you start, like a raised hand means that they would appreciate it if the other would take a short time out because they are getting emotional/angry/whatever. Do not let it escalate.

CWMI - Great advice! It's to great to hear from someone who has been there.

Wednesday will be the day!

Zhamila, you are getting great advice here!

I was very similar to you before I started learning about MB. In a way, I tried to bully my husband into showing he loved me but I didn't see it as bullying because I did it through low emotions and subtle SDs and DJs. It didn't work at all, it just drove him away.

I am here to tell you that taking the approach Steve suggested not only works better, but makes YOU feel better. When things aren't going the way I want, it triggers me to take action rather than feel sad and withdraw. Taking action is usually pretty fun for me, too - I plan some UA time, make sure I am looking attractive, think of funny and interesting things to say, etc. This almost always results in my husband being interested in meeting my ENs and avoiding LBs.

The truth is, my husband still acts like a renter sometimes but over time things have trended in a positive direction and overall I am much happier in my marriage. And, although my husband did speak with Steve a few times he wasn't as engaged as your husband is, so your future is looking bright my friend!

Just keep working on cleaning up your side of the fence.

Penni,

I love this idea. It seems pretty obvious when stated but taking immediate action on your own side of the street when you're frustrated is such a good idea. Gonna write that one down so i don't forget!

This is such great advice Penni! I have started changing the subject to something light when the conversation gets "testy" - so I'm doing a little of this.

And having a strong sense of my own responsibility keeps me focused on doing my part - rather than getting upset when he doesn't do his part. I am determined to "create the environment."

Update! Emotional Needs Questionnaire-Share:

We went through our first 5 ENs (didn't quite finish). We only had to take 2 breaks so far - when one of us got upset.

A (not so) funny thing on my #1 - conversation. I had just started reading it when he interrupted. He said, "OK, I got it."

I was so angry (literally, I had just started saying how many conversations per day/week/month, which is the beginning of the page) - I had to take a break! At least we laughed about it when we were done.

He took a break when I was telling him about Family commitment. It's hard to give positive examples, so I had to re-write that one! We did better after that.

One thing I noticed: he actually gave me "very satisfied" and "extremely satisfied" on one or two. I was shocked. He got almost all negatives. So I kind of feel bad, but it just shows where the Love Bank is right now.

I am so encouraged by the structured way of sharing, that I think we might be able to actually do our Love Buster inventory safely!!

Hahaha, that is funny about the conversation EN. Talk about a live example of the problem! I'm glad ya'll were able to continue and find the humor in it, too.

Good luck on the rest! You will be speaking with Steve again? If you are, rest assured that you cam share the blips with him and he will guide each of you on how to keep moving forward.

I have been more mindful of my selfishness & dismissiveness this week. I've noticed times when I cut him off, or pursue my own interests.

I'm working on focusing less on my hurt and more on my responsibility - It's cheering me up, being busy doing the right thing (even when I mess up & have to course-correct).

He has made efforts too, and that's helping so much! We've still got a very long road ahead, but at least I see willingness in both of us. With that willingness, we'll be able to build new habits.

If I had known how very effective Marriage Coaching w. SH was going to be, I would have done this years ago! I have had very poor experiences with other marriage counselors. I had some hope about it when we started, but now I am absolutely convinced!

Thanks to everyone here who encouraged us to reach out to SH. Feel free to pass along any experience or advice along the way!

That's great, Z! I find that you come here to fix your spouse and you end up fixing yourself!

Keep listening to the radio show. The articles are really helpful but hearing Dr Harley verbalize the information and reflect on it in different situations is invaluable.

Keep updating us, it's good to get continued support.

CWMI - Thanks for the encouragement! We meet with Steve next Monday. I'm looking forward to what his questions will be about how we did. And I do have some questions about blips - glad we'll get to address those.

I did my best to ask questions that would really help me understand his needs. He gave me better ratings than I gave him, which does not suprise me - but makes me sad in a way.

A few things did surprise me: Affection is his #2, SF is #4 and he wants more frequent SF, but doesn't want me to initiate....so how's that gonna get more frequent unless he initiates more (puzzled)?

This one really threw me: Honesty is his #5, and he only wants me to tell him my "positive" reactions - no negative reactions. I'm not sure how "honest and open" that really is...but I'm sure SH will help us navigate that one.

We're gonna try the LB Questionnaire tomorrow. Will probably need more breaks on that one!

Good point, Penni. I really did not expect to have to fix anything, but I am more and more aware of whether I am creating a caring environment or not.

Some moments I feel like it, others I do not - but I am aware that these are choices I am making, rather than responses to his actions. This makes me feel much more powerful and effective, and better about myself! No longer do I have to depend upon his care for me - I can give care without worrying so much about receiving it. I am less pouty, sad, depressed. (Gee, do the anti-depressants have anything to do w. that? Probably - duh)

Does this feeling last? Will I crash and burn after a while? - If anyone out there has been through this phase, I would love to hear your input.

Thanks again for the support!

Hi Zhamila,

Sorry it has taken me so long to respond, PC issues
I am so happy you are working with Steve! Good for you! This
is what my H and I SHOULD have done years back. I am so glad you are keeping us updated.

As soon as I have the chance I think I will write a "reintroduction" to the group and post my full story to everyone. I don't want to do any thread jacking here so I am going to try to keep my answer short and sweet!

I went into withdrawal years back after anger, unforgiveness, and unmet needs had completed drained my account. He eventually followed, and we just were two people who happened to live under the same roof.

About a year and a half ago we were struck by tragedy (I won't go into that at this time) We actually started to reconnect some then, but it did not last for more then a couple of months. We fell back into old habits and started to do our own thing again.

I started to feel concerned about him, he was really struggling, and needed help. I suggested he seek counseling but he refused. He wouldn't open up to me so I started snooping. One day I was reading his text messages and found an overly flirty conversation (his side only) on his phone.

I was FURIOUS! I was initially unsure what I wanted to do, but confronted him and let him know this was unacceptable and that he had to end all contact with this person or I was leaving.

After numerous conversations we agreed together to rebuild our marriage. He had no idea why I had withdrawn from him, but hated it, and wants to work with me now. We are still in the early stages but things are going well.

I would have never believed we would get to this point. I thought we were too far gone. You have made a great decision to work with Steve, and to come back to MB. Keep up the good work!

Thanks TimesAgain! It's good to hear your story & be encouraged. I am glad you are doing well, that's wonderful.

Update: It's been a rough weekend. I think I've petered out a bit.

Yesterday I had to protect my son from his discipline - we've gone over and over this, and my H truly believes he has a 'right' to discipline my children. I've told him I don't like it - he can be downright (verbally) abusive to my children - but he keeps doing it. I've started again noticing self-centered behaviors and attitudes in my H. They are driving me crazy! He was trying for a few days, but it's seems as if he's stopped trying.

I am withdrawn a bit today, I just don't want to be around someone who can be so unpleasant. I don't know if he realizes just how hurtful and harmful his behavior is, and how far we really have to go. We did cover some of the LB questionnaire - he had to stop because he got upset. We'll see if we can finish it tonight.

We meet with SH again in the morning - hopefully I'll be able to get motivated again. I do ok for a few days, then I just get so frustrated that I have a hard time keeping up my relational stamina.

You know...I just miss having a best friend. I'm sure some of you out there can relate: though married, I am alone. It's like living with a brick wall - unseen, unheard, unknown. It's lonely. sigh. Is it really possible to turn this around? To actually ENJOY the person you're married to? Does it take a certain type of man, rare to find? Or can a man really be transformed?

Wow, listen to me whining. Blame, blame, blame. That's just where I'm at today. I'm sure I'll get straightened out tomorrow morning talking to SH. Sheesh.

How old are the kids? In your OP, you said step-parenting was going well.

I could not imagine living with someone else's kids and being banned from disciplining them. That sounds like a recipe for disaster. You should be a united team ABOVE the children, all the children, or they will just play you against each other.

Could it be that he is exhibitng selfish behavior because you are ruling the roost rather than partnering? My H also was (imho) out of line in discipline, but with his own children (ours together). I got pretty far by asking to speak to him away from the kids while he was in a tirade. Did he expect to have no say over your children when you got married? Did he agree to that?

I agree with CWMI on this. My oldest daughters have a strip mom and a step dad. To ban a step parent from bring able to discipline will totally undermine the strip parent from greeting respect from thekids and will cause a division.

Dr. Harley in HNHN for parents and many of his radio shows specifically states a Step-parent should not discipline the children. It is the role of the main parent.

Can you share more of what he says? A quote?

From what you've written it sounds like he advocates that the step-parent is excluded completely from any decisions regarding stepchildren, and I just don't see how that works to protect the marriage. I don't have the for parents book.

CWMI, I meant that he should not discipline the children (as Dr. H says over and over on the radio & in his book, HNHN for Parents) - as PrayingIncessantly said, too. He absolutely has the right to be part of decisions made regarding the children - we discuss these things and make these decisions together. But his form of discipline is to be demanding and verbally abusive, which is not appropriate for any parent, least of all a step-parent.

Quote (e.g. he wants to leave at a certain time, to my son): "Put that away NOW and LETS GO! I said NOW, GIVE me that phone!"

or Quote (condescending tone, in front of the children): "What consequence are you going to impose since she's not obeying" or "What are you gonna do about that!?" (with the glaring eyes)

You know, I have enough to do to teach and train my children. I don't need a constant critic echoing me or challenging me in front of them.

I never discipline his daughter. If I have an issue, I discuss it with him in private, and he deals with it. He does not do the same: he just jumps in with criticisms, demands, etc. It's ugly.

He does better/worse but this week has been worse. Overall, I'd say that our main problems are marital - but as the marital problems continue, the parenting issues are becoming more pronounced.

Z- I can say this to you because I used to do this - the following comments are DJs. If you speak to or treat your husband like this, you aren't going to make progress.

[quote=Zhamila]Yesterday I had to 'protect' my son from his discipline [quote]

[quote=Zhamila]I've started again noticing self-centered behaviors and attitudes in my H. They are driving me crazy![quote]

[quote=Zhamila]It's like living with a brick wall.[quote]

[quote=Zhamila]To actually ENJOY the person you're married to? Does it take a certain type of man, rare to find? Or can a man really be transformed?
quote]

As much as you believe you have a logical reason to feel and act the way you do, your husband feels that he has a logical reason to feel and act the way he does. He is not the enemy that you have to fix or defeat. In order to have a happy marriage, you will need to be concerned about what frustrates him and try to fix those things and know what makes him happy and try to do those things.

He is frustrated with the kids - what can you do differently to make this situation better for both of you? What you currently doing is not working, you must find something else.

By the way, I am not saying that he is doing everything perfectly but you are the one that is here so I am encouraging you to continue to clean up your side of the street.

Here is a radio clip where Dr. Harley talks about the step parent with discipline. If there is not an enthusiastic agreement between the spouses.
Radio clip on blended family and discipline at the 6:00 mark

Penni, thanks for the correction. At first I thought, "Well I'm not saying this to him, I'm just saying it to other people, so it's not a DJ" - but then I realized if I build habits of disrespectful speech, it will come out to him. To him or about him - no good.

I am concerned about my growing negative feelings. Not a good sign. I need another dose of wisdom from SH. Thank goodness it's tomorrow!!

Thanks, Brain, that makes sense. For Zha then, it means that her and her husband need to discuss, in private, the issues he has with her children and agree on an approriate way to handle them and let Zha be the heavy with her kids. Makes sense!

Work on that love and poja!

So, we met with SH this morning. It was good as always.
We discussed our week, our successes and failures. We discussed the discipline with the children. It was a relief to have SH there weighing in!

I was very surprised by a few things my H said...I think our philosophies are more different and much more deeply entrenched than I ever realized, based upon his conversation with SH today. I was nearly overwhelmed with shock and discouragement. I mean, I 'knew' on some level that we aren't connecting, but today it became obvious why.

So I asked SH about this. I asked if there is hope. He said the way to turn it around is to provide incentive, to show my H the benefits of the MB way. And to do this, I have to keep trying to meet his ENs and avoid LBs.

I still cannot imagine how meeting his needs even more is going to turn this around. If anything, I'm the one who came for help getting my needs met & getting burnt by LBs. But I will make my checklist for each day to meet his ENs. I will make my checklist of behaviors to replace LBs. And I will do them.

I'm trying not to get tired. I'm trying to keep doing this.

I suppose real character is formed by continuing to do the right thing, even when you're bummed.

I should give credit where credit is due today:

My H emailed me several times at work, which was really nice.
He went outside and helped me put the flowers in our urns.
He respected the discipline thing with my son and refrained from being the heavy. (after a quickly-corrected flub-up)
He was pleasant to be around this evening.
He made respectful requests.

I agreed to hiring a mole man to rid our yard of the pests - he was happy. The lawn is important to him. He said he thinks it's because we met w. SH this morning, and he said he'd better slip in all kinds of requests! funny.

So....I do see progress on his side, and that is encouraging.

Am I schizo?

If anyone has experience or insight in turning a Renter into a Buyer, I would love to hear it! Also, would love to hear about how this "incentive" thing is supposed to work in turning the ship around. Like, how long does it take, how hard was it, what progress did you see, what worked/what didn't?

Thanks everyone for your encouragement, responses, corrections...all of it.

This may be a good radio clip for you to listen to. It deals with resentment and how to deal with it.

Radio Clip on Resentment

Is "deeply entrenched" code for "I'm never going to change this man?


You are right! It is obvious!




http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3402_disrespect.html






Really?

So, you feel that your husband's behavior is that of a man who is madly in love with his wife?

Because, if you were LB free, and meeting his needs expertly, he would be madly in love with you.

I mean, the guy has a lot of work to do... a ton.

But, have you considered - at all - that part of his behavior is evidence of his marital state of mind? That some of his love busters are triggered by your love busters?


I realize it's fantastic to have a blog about how horrible of a spouse your husband is, but you have to realize that your own disrespectful thoughts about your husband withdraw units from his account with you... with neither his knowledge nor his consent.

You're counting the guy out, and he hasn't even stepped in the ring!


That little glimmer you saw? That is a man who feels like there is a chance he can fall in love with his wife, and that she can actually show him some respect... and without trying to "fix" him.

Another good radio clip where Dr. Harley tells the wife to stop "criticizing" and dj'ng and her husband is a renter.
Radio Clip on criticizing

HHH, these are DJs: mind-reading, straightening out. I have a hard time listening to your advice when it is presented this way.

My posts stay focused on my feelings, and I try to avoid saying "he is wrong, I am right." I am a believer in the MB way - which is why I am here. My H has yet to be convinced that it is the way for him...by his own admission. This is not disrespectful, it is simply our different marriage philosophies.

When a person is married to someone with a very different philosophy of relationships, it can be discouraging to not have a 'meeting of the minds'. It also makes problem solving more difficult. I fully acknowledge that it is difficult for him as well. The relationship hasn't been working for either of us, which is why we are meeting with SH.

My hope is that my H will begin to see the benefits of MB, we can learn together and grow in love. I don't think that's disrespectful.

BrainHurts - thanks for the radio clips! It's so good to hear them in the context of what I'm struggling with.

Thanks for sharing. I'm listening right now.

Zhamila,
I just wanted to encourage you as you continue with the Marriage Builders program. Sometimes, even though the program itself seems simple, it is not always easy.
I am very like your H, I think. I was always the one struggling with the program. It seemed at times as if I was the only one doing the growing and changing.... but if you keep at it -it works!

Oh, and HoldHerHand gives excellent advice-even when it is hard to hear sometimes.
Good luck!
RC

Thanks Raging Calm! You are right: simple, but NOT easy.

Since you've been there, what turned it around for you? Was it the patience & kindness of your W, separation, or something else?

Thanks for any insight.

OK, so today I made my checklist of ENs and LBs to do each day and sent it to SH. It didn't seem quite so overwhelming putting it in a checklist. Here's an example:

Sunday:

Admiration
Tell him he looks nice in the morning
Compliment something he does for the family/home
Thank him for something and tell him he's awesome

Disrespectful Judgements
Don't lecture - say my thoughts 1x only then stop
Don't act superior - ask him about his perspective and listen.
Ask: Have you noticed any LBs in the past few hours?


We'll see how it goes.

What turned it around for us was the patience of my H in the early weeks and our commitment to racking up significant UA time.
At first I was LoveBusting him all over the place and only doing a so-so job of meeting his needs.
Do not underestimate the importance of UA time, it is critical to moving forward with the program.
Our marriage was in crisis when we started Marriage Builders, and I took a leave of absence from work to get us jump-started with the program.

Great job on the check list! My H listed all kind of details on his EN form that he often added to or updated. Encourage your H to do this; the more information you have, the better you will be able to successfully meet his needs.

Also great idea to check in with your H on how he is feeling. I make a point to ask H how he feels I am doing as a wife and if I am meeting his needs to his satisfaction. Then I have to shut up and listen to what he says.

I should qualify all of the above as coming from a newbie. We started this program towards the end of December 2011, so I am by no means an MB expert.

Good Luck and keep up the good work, I know it is hard sometimes.
RC

Thanks RC for the great advice!

What a great point on UA! - things go more smoothly when we're spending time together. My H has been seeking me out a little bit more lately: indication that he might be edging toward falling in love again?

Good idea on the EN list - I will encourage him to update it as he thinks of new ways to meet those needs. I will ask him how I'm doing, even though this makes me nervous. But...knowledge is power, and I need to find out how I'm doing on a regular basis.

Thanks for the advice & insight!!

THOUGHTS ABOUT COMPLAINING

I've been noodling over something regarding complaining: Dr. H recommends that spouses never stop complaining, always express their needs, things that drain their bank, etc. So, I took his advice and kept it up - being careful to avoid SDs DJs and AOs. But no matter what I did or said, my H would get more and more frustrated and withdrawn, and our problems certainly were not getting fixed: they got worse.

I'm thinking that as unpleasant as this past 2 years have been, at least it brought the real issues to light. Instead of me trying to "feel" different, I kept it all on the table. This brought things to a head (rather than burying them) and I found out that my H is really not on board with MB principles.

So, perhaps the "ideal scenario" of a complaining spouse is the correction of what's being complained about. This did not happen for us.

But, what if the "runner up scenario" is that each spouse's marital philosophy comes to light much more quickly? If you disagree on the fundamentals of how a marriage should work, then it will not work.

I'd been puzzled over this: why isn't my complaining magically working? Why aren't we making course-corrections the way Dr. H and Joyce do every day on the radio? Because my H and I have different beliefs about how marriage should work.

At least I know now, and we're getting help with the basics.

So I believe in complaining, because SOMETHING good will come of it: either a correction, or a crisis!

Zhamila,
Only have a minute, but I wanted to reply quickly re complaints.
Your complaints were/are not working because your H is not in love with you (or you with him).
Make absolutely sure that your complaints are super respectful. If you are unsure-check with your H. Ask him "Did I phrase that complaint respectfully enough?" If not ask him how he would prefer to hear your complaints. Then abide by his preferences.
Increase your UA time consistently and it will make all the difference.
Good luck!
RC

How are you complaining - give an HONEST, word-for-word example. Don't tell us "I calmly and respectfully stated..." because everybody with a marriage in tatters "calmly and respectfully..." spoke to their spouse about this or that and are baffled as to why it doesn't work. Calmly doesn't mean you are on the razor's edge with an AO or bursting into tears. Respectful doesn't mean that you chose not to curse or call them names - it means that you aren't trying to change their beliefs (read the definitions of DJs... over and over... every day).


How OFTEN did you complain?

Dr. H might recommend that you not stop compaining, but frequency - once every few days, once a week - is the key. Give it time, and don't unleash a constant battering of complaints.



How MANY COMPLAINTS were you bringing to the table each time?


It's usually recommended that ONE ISSUE be worked on at a time, as otherwise you risk overwhelming your spouse with criticisms.



So, have you been bringing one complaint to your husband each week, and giving it to him in a pleasant and respectful manner?

HHH - your questions are giving me a lot to think about, especially about keeping it to one issue at a time, and complaining less often. This is an interesting thought, thank you.

Here's an example (he was planning to make fish for dinner):
I asked if he'd please leave the spice off the kids' and my fish - we can't eat it, it burns our mouths. He was angry, and he told me that fish is 'better' with the spice. I just asked him again to please leave the spice off our fish - he refused, told me, 'that's how I make fish' and finally, 'fine I'll never make fish again!!' I told him I was disappointed that he wouldn't honor the request. (He gets really angry when I stay calm and just repeat my request - he says it's disrespectful).

This is a verbatim example I have. Sometimes I log our interactions, because I wonder later if I'm just crazy, or imagining things. It helps me see what's really going on.


Here's an article by Dr. H on complaining. This issue has been on my mind for years:

Originally Posted By: Dr Harley
Complaining in Marriage

Dear Dr. Harley,

My wife says that she wishes she could talk to me about the things
she is dissatisfied with in our marriage, so they could be addressed.
But when she does talk to me about these things, I get frustrated
because it seems like she is never happy with me. The progress I
make doesn't seem to matter.

I often see her explaining what she is upset about as complaining and
only focusing on the negative. I don't often feel like she has
recognized the good things about us. I want her to be more positive.
I think she complains too much and does not see the good in some
situations. I want her perspective to change, but she doesn't think
she has to do something different to make this happen.

Thanks for your help.

R.D.

- - - - - - - - - - - -

Dear R.D.

On average, women complain far more often than men, in both good and
bad marriages. But there is a difference in how the complaints are
received in those marriages. In good marriages, a complaint is
regarded as a problem to be solved with wisdom and compassion. In
bad marriages, a complaint is viewed as an unnecessary irritant --
something that should be either ignored or reacted to with anger and
disrespect.

Remember what a complaint is -- it's a reminder that you are losing
love units in your account in your wife's Love Bank. She is simply
giving you accurate information about the present state of your
relationship. While it may be discouraging to hear that you are
losing ground, to be kept in the dark about such losses would be
worse in the long run.

More than anything else, your wife wants to be in love with you, and
you want her to be in love with you. So to achieve that crucial objective you must know when her love for you is being threatened by behavior that makes her unhappy. If your marriage has any hope of recovery, she must tell you how she feels about your behavior, and you must make corrections to eliminate her negative reactions.

Your wife's high incidence of negative reactions simply reflects the
number of issues that have yet to be resolved in your marriage. If
you want her to be more positive, you must address those issues, and
eliminate them one at a time. You've had success in the past, and
she has been very encouraged when that happens. But when you seem
to be overwhelmed by it all, and tell her that she must learn to be
more positive, she feels hopeless because there remain many issues
that must be resolved if she is to be happy and in love with you.

The harder you try to become sensitive to your wife reactions, the
more successful you will become in doing what it takes to make her
happy. The more you try to avoid anger, replacing it with empathy
(an effort to try to understand how your wife feels without being
defensive), the more your wife will feel your care for her, and
that in itself will make massive Love Bank deposits.

Remember, all of your efforts on your wife's behalf make a
difference in the way you think and behave. You are rerouting
neural pathways in your brain that will make it easier for you to
care for her in the future. While it may seem like a lot of
effort now, in the future, it will be almost effortless to address
your wife's complaints, and solve her problems with compassion.

Best wishes,

Willard F. Harley, Jr.

Thanks RC for taking time to reply.

I will be careful to keep it respectful.

I like "ask him how he'd prefer to hear my complaints." Great idea...I'll try that!

This is a better article;

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8115_prob.html


Once the "do not" is covered, you get the "do:"

Now, I'm sure at this point that you are getting a rather strange mental picture of me... something similar to this;



But there is another little quote I'd like to share with you;


This is a primer article to the home study or online course;

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi9010_most.html

You can apply it to your sessions with SH as well.


You asked a page or two back; "How does one change a renter into a buyer?"

Here's your answer; you become a buyer yourself.


When we expect our spouses to make the changes to improve our marriage, we take on a renter's mentality; "The kitchen sink is leaking, and I'm going to stand here and complain until the landlord fixes it!"

Now, one thing you may have noticed in your sessions (and I only know by word-of-mouth), is that SH is good at making a strong pitch to reluctant husbands.

That is his job; to make the pitch.


Zhamila, it is your job to close the sale!

Hang in there Zhamila! I know it is a lot of work and hard, but I was thinking maybe you should mention the complaining to Steve. Since communication seems to be a major issue for you guys, I am thinking maybe you need some tips for how to make it productive.

Before I disconnected in my M, I was complaining plenty, but my H just viewed it as nagging, and tuned it all out. I wonder if maybe your H is doing the same?

Now that my H and I are learning to start to communicate a little better, I have discovered that VERY often when I feel I have been perfectly clear, my H hears something else completely, even when he is working very hard to listen. What may seem clear and simple to you, can easily be misunderstood.

If my H gets overwhelmed sometimes and he will just shut down and not even tell me he has no idea what I am talking about.

Hi Zhamila -keep up the good work, I know you are trying.
Another thing to remember, that MelodyLane often reminds posters, is that in a not so good marriage complaints are seen as an irritant.

Focus on racking up the UA time and I think you will turn the corner and your H will view the complaints differently.

I am glad you have Steve to help you through the rough patches.
Sorry you are struggling right now.


RC

Here's some good radio clips on DJ.
Radio clip on DJ segment #1
Segment #2

Thanks TisMeAgain! I'll definitely ask SH about complaining. That's a good idea because he knows the concepts & is also familiar with our unique situation.

Our next appt is wednesday - the earliest we could get. Steve is a busy guy!

Thanks for the encouragement, RC! I will keep trying.

That's a good point - that complaining is seen as nagging if the marriage is in a not-so-good place.

I have been keeping those little complaints short & sweet, then I change the subject. It helps to not dwell on them, so maybe that will help a little.

Update: We both finished our EN LB checklists!

H has been WAY nice the past few days. It's easy to be caring when he's being caring, so I am totally lucking out!

Anyway, we are starting to joke about checking things off our lists with each other, so that's very good. Also, we've been more positive and affirming with each other. We've also been connecting during the day with emails and phone calls, which is also really helping us.

He made me dinner tonight, served it on china, AND had a great conversation with me for an entire 1/2 hour!! Then we checked out our next vacation ideas together. Things are going very, very well right now.

So....I'm just enjoying it and trying not to worry that this is another of those "good weeks" that have often come and gone in the past two years. I hope we build some stamina this time, new habits and ways of being married that we live by for the rest of our lives.



Our next SH session is next Wednesday. I'm looking fowrad to 4 more day sof good marraige: then we can give Steve a great report.

Read your own words.



Now... read them again.


And again...


So... why would SH suggest to you that you avoid Love Busters, and meet your husbands needs?


Because it is easy for him to be caring, when you are being caring!


Crazy, right?

woohoo! Great few days...you guys are making progress! Have a great weekend!!

That is wonderful Zhamila, so glad things are looking up for you. Hope you get in some good UA time over the week-end.
RC

Thanks TisMeAgain and RC! It was a pretty good weekend.

I asked him today how I'm doing. He said overall well, getting better on the ENs. He couldn't really remember any LBs except what happened this morning (which I don't think is a LB) - so we're gonna ask Steve Wednesday. Here's what happened:

We were in bed relaxing at 6:30 am after some romantic time. He asked me what time we're going to leave for church, and started naming the time he wanted to leave. (This stresses me out...he has AOs when we don't leave when he wants to leave) I said, "I don't really want to talk about that right now. I'd really like to relax and enjoy this moment." He said, "It's important to me. Don't you care?" I said "I know it's important to you. But I don't enjoy talking about when we're leaving for church, three hours from now. I'd really like to enjoy this time together."

He says it's a LB that I didn't want to talk to him about the time. I told him it stresses me out to talk about this stuff: he does it a lot, in fact he just now came into the room to find out when we're going to get the kids tonight, when we should leave for the airport tomorrow, when I'm going to wake up in the morning, etc. he got his answers then left. I don't like it.

"Whine-fest" If you don't want to read me whine, just skip to the next post:

I am hurt that he didn't ask me how he is doing meeting my ENs & avoiding LBs. I'm trying not to let it discourage me. Ick.

I asked SH what we do when the other guy doesn't ask. He said I'm responsible for me - not my spouse. True.

But it still hurts, doggone it.

OK, I gotta look at my checklist again and focus on working this program. I can't sit around looking for results - I have to focus on doing my part, "creating that environment."

BTW, Thanks for the radio clips, Brainhurts! I listened, will listen again and try to get your point - unless you want to explain it to me!

Signing off, going to do my job.

Zhamilla, I am reading these last few posts as: I don't want to give him what he asks for (a time), but I get mad when he doesn't give me what I don't ask for but secretly want (him to ask how he's doing).

You are going to get NOWHERE like that, dear.

I like to know when we are going somewhere, and feel unsettled if it is vague and open. Something like church is something that happens at the same time every week...poja a regular leave-time and be done with that discussion forever! If I were you, I would ask your husband if it would helpful to create a family calendar where you guys can just write this stuff down. But I like to know when stuff is going on...I get that you care a little less than I, or your H.

This is an easy thing for you to do to meet his needs. Let him know that his AOs bother you when things don't go as scheduled, and that you will do your absolute best to stay on schedule, but the AOs must stop.

Do you care what time things happen?

Dr. Harley said a good spouse learns to be a good salesman. It's all in the way we approach our spouse with the things we want. That's the point I was trying to make. It's your job in how you approach and ask him what it is you need. Isn't this what Steve is telling you also?

Do you tell him when he says/does something that hurts you? He can't read your mind.

Here's another good radio clip on complaining in a M.
Radio clip on complaining in a Marriage

Z -

Like CWMI and your H, I too like to have times planned. I really like CWMI's suggestion of a calendar. I recently started this with my husband and it helped him be more thoughtful and considerate of me when planning his time.

Something else to consider .... Your H is doing the program, he is speaking to Steve regularly, and he is showing progress. This is really the best case scenario, no one flips a switch and becomes a different person overnight. In one post you mention progress and in the next you sound like nothing has changed and like you are feeling low and defeated. I wonder what impact those low moments have on your husband's enthusiasm and motivation to work on the marriage.

The way I understand it is that we are to work on our checklist, do what's on them without fail, ask how we are doing with LBs and ENs. We are not to give unsolicited advice about our needs. We need to hang in there and rather work against our emotions to stay on task. I feel what you're saying, Z, and it seems to be a most delicate and difficult job to do. For now, maybe we can satisfy the taker by voicing what withdraws so that our giver is "allowed" to meet ENs, as well as becoming better at meeting those needs until we are experts. Even then, there are no guarantees for us. That's the risk we are taking.

Good point, Penni. I will look on the bright side.

I like your poja idea, CWMI.

To answer you: no, it is not important to me when things happen, especially things on the weekends.

You said, "It is an easy thing for you to do to meet his needs." But unfortunately, it doesn't feel easy to me. Maybe it's easy for people who like having things all planned out - but it feels stressful for me. I feel forced into a schedule, which is unpleasant.

I'm not sure how to navigate this one. I'll keep thinking about it.

Thanks BrainHurts!

I like the part about being a good salesperson in marriage. I definitely need to work on my approach.

I do tell him when something bothers me - in fact I told him this whole thing later & we had a nice conversation about how he did last week. He was a very good listener and I was grateful and impressed.

I'll listen to that radio clip too, thanks again!

Wow, Lifelong! Thank you for your empathetic response!

You are right - I need to keep working on my checklist and not worry so much about his. When I stay really focused on doing my job, I sort of forget to worry about his job - it works when I actually do it.

I want to be good at meeting his ENs. I want to be good at avoiding LBs.

And I like what you said about satisfying the 'taker' so we can clear the path for the 'giver' to give.

If it is not important to you when things happen, why not go with your husband's desires there?

It is important to him. That you feel forced into a schedule by pojaing a leave time for church screams IB Queen, and you can't tell me what to do, wahhhh!

Do you work? Have kids? Ever went to school? They all have schedules, did you buck them as hard as you are your husband?

CWMI is right, this is IB. If you say you feel forced into a schedule, it means that you don't want to agree to something with your husband and then have to follow through, you want to make decisions on your own. Your IB around scheduling is probably why your husband gets upset about it and tries really hard to nail you down to a time and plan. When you get better at this, he will too.

If you don't like planning, perhaps you could let him make the plan and then stick with it.

Z, I get what you're saying about the schedule. It's like yet another thing to bash your head in with. I remember those days. As if he said, "I'd like to set a time, that if the kids aren't ready, the sneering nasty monster will come out. What time would you like me to rein him in until?" Who would agree to like 9:30 or whatever? How about reframing it to think about what you *do* want? "I'd love to be out the door by 9:30, but I know our family isn't smooth sailing yet, so we'll wake the kids at 8, have breakfast on the table at 8:30, and if 9:30 comes and they're still getting dressed, how about we let them get dressed in the car today?"

New Every Day - exactly! It's another chance to punish me.

The other day he came up to the room bristling with anger about being late. He said, "You know how I get when we're late!" Very threatening. He stopped himself, but I'm not exactly inclined to give in to demands and angry outbursts.

CWMI & Penni - for me, this issue represents a whole spectrum of control issues in our relationship. I am a very organized person and perfectly capable to getting things done in a timely manner. However, I don't like being threatened and controlled. That's what this represents to me.

I am considering my role here, but I also know that Dr. Harley has said that when someone gets demanding and abusive, stop giving them what they want. Don't reward the abuse!

The Good News:

My H has been very affectionate and admiring this week. He is good at it, and we sometimes tease that he tries to squish all the affection into one minute so he can "check it off the list." But it's very nice. He gave me flowers, took me to dinner and we even sat outside, which I love. He planned a nice activity - the art fair. He said kind things, hugged me, held my hand, and snuggled me this week.

And he had conversations with me! He's been asking me what I'm thinking about, and truly listening. It's very nice!

So, this is all really good stuff.

The Other Good News:

I have been keeping up my checklist, too. He's told me I'm doing well, but to do things more times per day. So I am. I refined my checklist and I'm keeping up with it.

I've been finding things to admire, being more affectionate.

So I've seen real progress on the EN side, which is great.

The Not-So-Good News:

H had four AOs this week, one which got physical. He beat on the bank window after the machine ate my ATM card, then kicked and punched the ATM machine in anger. I was afraid and embarrassed. He also AO'd at my son for not getting ready, AO'd about not having a bath towel (my daughter used it), and AO'd when he took a wrong turn on the road.

He doesn't think his AO's are a big deal. The children frustrate him and he demands to know the consequences for their behavior. Or something inconvenient happens and he falls apart emotionally. I do my best to guide the children, and to consider my H's feelings. But the world is not a peachy-perfect place and frustrating things just happen sometimes! AOs don't solve anything, and they are doing quite a bit of damage.

So today I'm a little more withdrawn...less willing to meet his ENs. I'm a bit pensive, wondering if this is someone I want to share my life with. I know I should stay focused on my responsibilities in the relationship. But setbacks like this really make me feel ambivalent about the whole thing.

What does Steve say about his AOs? Has he told Steve that he does not see them as a big deal?

Or is that your DJ?

What do you do when he AOs?

Agree. Also with talking to Steve about it have you or your H read lovebusters? This is a must.

I would also have him listen to these radio clips from Dr. Harley on Anger Mgmt Anger Mgmt 101

CWMI & BrainHurts, thanks for the Qs.

We met with Steve this morning. The plan is that my H has to come up with a plan to eliminate AOs. They talked for quite a while one-on-one...I think I've figured out that when we do one-on-one's with Steve, it means we aren't doing so well & he needs to separate us. (Like MB101?)

He said the balance is not reinforcing H's abusive behavior while also not setting him up for failure (i.e. not intentionally doing things that I know frustrate my H - which I don't do. In fact I try to order life so it won't be frustrating!)

I asked Steve what I should do. He said just stay calm. Leaving is an option if I sense that we're in real danger, but correcting him or trying to 'coach' him out of it will not be wise. He said I could gently mention it at a later time if I sense that he's ok to hear feedback.

Our next session is Thursday, so I'm glad we don't have long to wait. Will look forward to hearing the next steps.

During an AO: Steve also said I could make it clear - calmly - that the AO is unacceptable behavior to me.

(forgot that part til now)

Zhamila, I'm glad you're working on this. The AOs are a tough thing to battle, but you're in good hands! And it's so worth it to free yourself and your kids from all that.

Zhamila,

I used to pull these kinds of stunts. I thought it was funny and entertaining to blow up at a machine, like a gas pump or a self-service grocery counter. I thought it was great that my anger was directed at machines, not at people.

What I didn't know was that I was reinforcing the habit of anger, making myself a more naturally angry person. And scaring the crud out of my wife.

This stuff has got to be GONE FAST. If your husband were not talking to Steve H. about a plan to stop it, I would be saying that we all need to talk with you about how to get you out of there. Even if he makes a plan, there will be mistakes in following it, and mistakes can be devastating emotionally and physically for you and your family.

Are you prepared to call the police if your husband's angry outbursts do not stop? I would say the angry outbursts you are describing rise to the level of needing a call to the cops.

Zhamila, I feel very VERY confident that Steve told you to not intentionally do things that frustrate your H because you DO. So please look closely at that and don't brush it aside as a non-factor. I worked with Steve, too, and he does not spend one minute saying something that means nothing.

I am not implying that you are responsible for his AOs. That is all on him. My H continued to frustrate me long after I stopped being a destructive, screaming idiot. Your H may not be at the point yet where he decides to not be that person anymore. Your calmness in the face of his anger will help him get there, though, because hopefully, eventually, he will recognize that it is him creating an ugly, unpleasant environment.

Thanks, for the encouragement, NewEveryDay. It will be good to be free of this fear.

Markos, thanks for your insight. I'm looking forward to seeing the plan and watching it come to life. I am worried about mistakes, as you said, because I can feel myself withdrawing. It's hard to stay motivated to do my part when I feel ambivalent about the relationship in general. But I make myself do the things on my checklist even when I don't feel like it. I will keep plugging away.

CWMI, thanks for your thoughts, you are right Steve wouldn't waste time talking about something irrelevant. His comments were in response to my question about how I can minimize frustrating circumstances without reinforcing the AOs (i.e. walking on eggshells, running around trying to placate an angry person). I will continue to watch my behavior and make sure I'm keeping it clean.

Thank you everyone. We'll have an update in the next day or so when we meet with Steve again.

You did not answer my question:

Markos - good question. I am prepared to call the police if his angry outbursts continue, but I don't think they will.

He's only had physical AOs 3 or 4 times in our marriage, so it's pretty unusual. He had a few in his last marriage and the police were called. My impression was that they were under extenuating circumstances (one was that he found his wife's affair partner in the house & chased him and broke his windshield with a bat). I guess I figured that anyone would be pretty upset in that situation, so it didn't concern me too much when I found out - perhaps it should have concerned me more?

But yes, if a serious physical AO occurred again, I would call. I'm not sure if the ATM beating was serious enough..am I being too soft on this?

Did your wife call the police on you? How serious was the AO to have her call?

Destruction of property is serious enough for a call.

She should have!

Yes.

There is a reason you are feeling withdrawn. Your emotions are trying to protect you -- anytime he has an AO, he is insane, and you are in danger. Men who have no history of violence have gone crazy in an AO and have killed or maimed their wives. And your husband has been physical 3 or 4 times?

That's not normal. It's not safe.

Do you understand that when he has an AO, he is temporarily insane? He has no control over himself. Markos cannot even remember half the things he did or said during his AOs, things that were very traumatic to me. Your husband very likely doesn't realize how severe AOs are because he's insane, and it clouds his memory.

Take a no tolerance stance on AOs. You were in danger when he went for the ATM. Don't tolerate that again.

OK Prisca, I'll take it seriously. It's good to have your and Markos insight - you'd been there!

My H doesn't think the ATM incident was a big deal (he told me this) - and that makes me think he doesn't remember it exactly the way I do.

Steve listened to the AO plan this morning - it went well. My H says he's going to count to 10, ask me for help, then thank me for helping. Steve was satisfied with the plan, and said we will likely tweak the plan over time to see what works.

Phew, what a cruddy day. We are flat-lining again.

I recorded one of our conversations. I expected to hear myself being unreasonable and ugly (because I was really upset at times), but was surprised at how measured and careful I was. H was defensive and disrespectful, and refused to talk about a plan for improvement...not pleasant.

H isn't sure he cares anymore. Again, his main problem is that I complain. He calls my complaints 'disrespectful judgments' and me 'being negative.' Like when I say, "I'm not happy, I'd like to figure out a plan to eliminate these LBs," he says it's disrespectful.

I am proud of my behavior. I am fed up with his.

Most of all, I am sad.

Did he know it was being recorded?

I ask because if one person knows and the other doesn't, the knowing one is measured and careful because taa-daa! They know they are being recorded.

No, I told him afterward...good point CWMI.

I got the idea from another poster who said they let their abusive H hear a recorded altercation and it made him realize how bad his AOs really were. I thought I'd try it to see if it would help us eliminate AOs & abuse, since he doesn't remember what he's really like.

I told him I'll tell him from now on if I'm recording. He told me I don't have his 'permission' to ever record him, and that it's 'illegal' to record him unless he gives 'permission.' I told him I want evidence of what our relationship is really like - that set him off. He thought I meant, "go to court evidence." I explained that no, it's just evidence for us - to help understand what's really happening so we can fix it.

I feel the need to protect myself. He's not protecting me from himself, so I need to do something.

We encourage people to use VARs and exposure for affairs, that 'snooping' is good. Why not use VARs to eliminate AOs and abuse? What's the difference?

This is probably one of those things Steve was talking about when he said for you to not set your H up for failure. I think you are lying about expecting to hear yourself being unreasonable; lying to yourself. I think that because if you had recorded in order to hear yourself, you would not have told your husband how HE sounded. You would have said to yourself, wow, I am doing better than I thought! Or you would have been listening to yourself more critically and come here with comments of how you could still use some work on this or that, but were proud of how you handled this other thing.

I think, if you think hard, that you know the difference between snooping in an affair and recording someone to eliminate AOs. But I will simplify that for you: in affairs, the BS isn't getting the truth from the WS. VACs are used to covertly hear conversations, keyloggers are used to gain access to electronic communication, and none of this is done to prove to the WS what they are doing. The WS knows what they are doing. And they know it is wrong, hense the secrecy. The snooping is done to prove to the BS what is going on in their own life. Sometimes we advocate carry VACs around after exposure if there appears to be a danger of a WS (usually WWs) attempting to file a false domestic violence charge.

Secretly recording AOs, however, is to prove what? Your H knows he AOs, he has been discussing this problem with Steve. You know he AOs, because you witness it personally. So what good is it to do something like this covertly? Both parties already know what is going on. Can you admit that you did it just to show your H how horrible he is? Do you think that is part of MB?

I was going to do the same thing, and for exactly that reason: to prove to my H how awful he was. Some good people here talked me out of it. Look, if you are going to deviate from the advice of Steve Harley, will you please come here first and vet it through us? We can, and want to, help you see any holes in your plan, help you get what you want in a non-destructive manner, and want to cheer you on when you come up with something brilliant (and possibly steal it for ourselves).

I thought my H was the most self-oblivious person on the planet, and if HE could learn to recognize his own AOs, and stop himself when he is the only screaming idiot in the room, your H can do this, too. "Gotcha!" is NOT the game plan you want to use, though, if your intent is to help him get there. Like Markos and Prisca said, anger makes one insane. Your only job here with his AOs is to say, "Stop," and then remove yourself.

Also, now, you are working with Steve, so leave your relationship conversations there. There is no reason why you and your husband should be doing any relationship talk right now other than something Steve has assigned you.

Talk about good stuff. Talk about crazy stuff. Talk about the Kardashians or American Idol or whether or not you want to put a bed of hostas in the backyard...anything else. Talk about your husband's prowess or your recent waxing, talk about your grandmother's gout or them Yankees or NASCAR or ice road truckers or where to go on vacation, debate salt water v chlorinated pools, just don't talk relationship talk!

How do you feel about Christian church sermons? We go to a great church, non-denominational, and today's message was really good and I think pertinent to you, Zhamila. It will be rebroadcast at 6pm eastern today, and again at 10pm, and at some time on Wednesday. Here: http://www.northpointonline.tv/

It's really like a cross between a sermon and a motivational speech. I recommend you watch it and think about YOU and YOUR PART, but your husband may enjoy it, too. I just caution you to not plunk him down and demand he watch it.

Do you guys go to church? If not, have you talked about it? We have found it very beneficial for us. Of course, we go to a church where today, the first thing was a 'climate montage' by the band with songs including "It's Raining Men" and "Purple Rain." I grew up in churches with choirs, not real rock and roll!

IF you want H to watch it, too, tell him some woman online told you that you ought to see this and consider how you, Zhamila, affect the climate in your house. His curiosity will about kill him! lol.

If you don't get to see it today, it will eventually be archived for viewing anytime.

Touche, CWMI. Yes. I'll do that in the future.

I'm not sure about this. One hour a week isn't getting us there fast enough, and I am end-of-rope frustrated. You are telling me to live in a crappy relationship, but totally avoid talking about it?

I think your advice would work great for a totally committed spouse who is dying to save her relationship and is in love with a reluctant H. I am not that spouse. I'm not seeing that the benefits are outweighing the pain here. We're in week 4 of coaching, I've been doing my part and keeping it clean. It's taking way too long and I recorded us out of desperation yesterday.

I'm also not sure that SH has told us NOT to talk relationship at all. I'll ask him next session. (Wednesday) In fact, everything I hear from Dr. Harley is, "don't stop complaining, just make sure you are free of DJs, etc" - which I have been.

I'm gonna have to really think about your advice, CWMI. I'm not saying "no" just, not sure. I'll listen to the sermon.

Enjoy the sermon. I swear, it's not preachy! I would enjoy hearing your thoughts on it afterwards, if you're up to sharing them.

I think it was Dr. Phil who said, "If all you talk about is your problem relationship, you'll have a problem relationship." Well of course, us wimmin want to talk things to death, because that's how we work things out and fix things, verbally. But guys are different; they like to do. Not talk about doing.

You have a much greater need for conversation than your husband does, so in order to get your need met, you have to make it pleasant for him. With some ingenuity, you can actually have 'relationship talks' without actually talking about the relationship. Talk about people you admire, ask him about who he admires and why. Talk about things you've always wanted to try but were scared, ask him about his.

Why are you here, and why are you coaching with Steve, if you are not totally committed? Why is it you, instead of your H, here? Is this more of your self-deluding? Work on that, girlie!

OK, I went back and read everything from the beginning of this thread.

First, I want to say "thank you" to so many who have given me encouragement and advice. It's helped me stay focused, and given me hope that things could be repaired.

Second, I see the up-and-down cycle we're on. I guess we didn't get here overnight, and we probably won't get fixed overnight. I also see clearly how our sessions with Steve really make a difference in my motivation to keep going.

So now I'm gonna listen to the sermon, CWMI. And read Loves2011's latest (hope you're doing ok out there!) And I'm gonna try to make it til Wednesday, try to do my checklist even though I really.don't.want.to.

And I really hope Anointed is ok. Has anyone heard from her? I'm worried....


Happy Mother's Day

Keep your thoughts positive. Remember feelings follow actions. I've noticed when you have a session with Steve you're very positive in the "I'm going to work hard and we will get through this" then when he does something you don't like, you get discouraged.

We all understand and have been there, but you can be your worse enemy. Steve Harley has often said the BS can be the biggest burden for a recovery. You're in the same boat.

Stay focused and do work. You'll reap the benfits of MB whether you save your M or save yourself.

OK CWMI - Love the sermon! I'm gonna ask the question: "What's it like to be on the other side of me?" and bring it to God.

BrainHurts - thanks for the insight. You're right, I go from being encouraged to being deeply discouraged. I'm not sure how to stop doing this, 'cause the pain is, well...painful. I withdraw and close up because it hurts so much, which is probably a healthy response. I don't want to keep being abused.

I will keep trying, focusing and doing my work.

Have you tried ADs?

Hi BrainHurts - Good question: actually I started ADs right as we started counseling with Steve. They've helped a ton (believe it or not), in that I'm not overwhelmed by feelings of hopelessness all the time.

I've got lots to be thankful for: 3 wonderful children, a great job, beautiful home, neighborhood and neighbors.

Last night was nice. H and I had a conversation before bed, and I felt safe and cared for. He even made the effort not to turn his back to me to go to sleep. Those little things mean a lot.

I asked my H last night, "What's it like to be living on the other side of me?"

At first he said, "It's all pleasant." I teased him and said, "No, no...you can tell me what you really think."

He said mostly pleasant, but challenging. That I have strong opinions - he knows I'm smart and study lots of things, 'cause that's what I enjoy doing - but he thinks it would be nice if I were more open to others' opinions, even if they haven't done all the thinking/analyzing, etc.

I said, "Wow, thanks for telling me! I'll work on that!" - then we had a really fun conversation about nature v. nuture, and he really got me to think about things differently. It was fun.

I'm sure you're sighing at the "romance" of a philosophical discussion before bedtime....but it was really fun! We both got some love unit deposits last night.

Thanks for the sermon, CWMI. How do I see next week's? It sounded like it would be a good one.

I had a feeling you would enjoy it and get something out of it! You can just return to that link next Sunday for the second part.

Thanks! Will do.

Z- I am the one that did the audio recording. I told my husband that I was doing it and kept it on in front of him the entire time. My H wouldn't really admit that he had AOs prior to doing this so it was more a matter of trying to create some self awareness, which could be construed as me trying to educate him and a DJ. He was surprised at how many mean things he said, how loud he was, and how long it lasted. He didn't realize any of that while it was happening so I feel like it had the impact I was hoping for. I deleted it right away and in front of him.

Also, as calm as I sounded on the recording, there were several times when I should have just stopped talking. Me saying things like, "You need to relax, I want to have a normal conversation with you" was just egging him on. I have listened to it a few times now and I think that even though I was not yelling or saying mean things, I was still contributing in making things worse. I needed to just say, "We'll talk when you calm down" and then not say anything else. It is so easy to paint ourselves as the one doing everything right, but we still have responsibility in these situations.

On another topic, I believe that Dr. Harley recommends picking just one or two things that bug us and complain about those, but not too often - like once per week. If we say it the nicest way possible three times per day, it's still going to feel like an SD.

CWMI, I would like to see the sermon, is there someplace that I can watch it OnDemand?

It won't be available at all times until after Wednesday, maybe even until after the next one, but here is a collection of past ones if any of them interest you:

http://www.brownsbridge.org/messages

Thanks Penni, I couldn't remember where I heard the idea from!

Good point that your H knew about it and still AO'd. Did he enthusiastically agree to record? I did it to learn: I wanted to know what we'd both sound like. I also needed to see that I'm not crazy, there are some serious issues and I wanted to hear what was really going on.

I noticed that I went on and on about one particular topic. It made me realize what my H calls "lecturing." So I've become much more aware of that and am working to eliminate it.

In the end - it was not POJA. I did something my H was not enthusiastic about (and didn't ask him ahead of time, so IB). I'll have to apologize & not repeat it.

As to complaining, I'm still noodling it. I'm going to ask Steve about it in our next session.

When you discuss things that deeply interest you, and how you feel about them, that is intimate conversation.

For instance; simply talking about music you like is intimate conversation.

It might not seem like it, but it is. And all of those emotions that are conjured up talking about those things, the associated memories, the exchange of memories... those feelings become associated with your conversational partner--- in other words, LB$ deposits are made!

Don't dismiss those conversations! They are the crux of UA time!

Totally agree, HHH!

The nature v nuture was an intimate conversation & put units in my bank, big time. And it wasn't about our "feelings" - so I think it was more comfortable for my H, too.

It was the best convo we've had in 2 months - the last 'great' one was about free will v predestination. Now we're doing research with some friends on tithing in the New Testament...it's been fostering some fun conversations, too.

Anyway, good point, and we'll work on having those kinds, as long as he enjoys them as much as I do.

OK, after a couple of good days, something scary happened tonight.

I went upstairs after dinner - felt a little ill. Invited my H & the kiddos to come and hang out with me, I was just going to rest. After a few minutes I heard a 'thud' and my son (7) crying. I ran downstairs, afraid he'd fallen.

My H had dragged him off the couch and dropped him on the floor a few feet away.

My son and daughter (10) had been arguing over the computer, so my H stepped in (even though we've AGREED that he doesn't discipline the children) and took matters into his own hands. Needless to say, I was upset. I comforted the children first and asked them what happened, how did they get hurt. They explained it, and then I tried to talk to my H, who was sitting back at the table on his computer.

I asked him what happened: he was angry, aggressive and defensive. He said he "had" to do what he did, because my DS was kicking my DD. (ok, he's 7, she's 10, she can walk away...I get that it's wrong, but not dangerous). I asked why he didn't call me to intervene - "They were being physically violent and I was PROTECTING your DD!" - glaring, finger pointing, yelling.

I said, "Please go take a drive and cool off." He refused. I said it again, "You are making me feel unsafe. Go take a drive."

"That's a demand!" he said. I said, "You are acting unsafe, and I want you to leave the house for a while." He refused, this is his house, he's not going anywhere, etc.

I don't remember who brought up calling the cops. I went upstairs, called the children into my room, locked the door and called Steve first. No answer, left a message. I wasn't sure what to do.

I called the police and they came. In the meantime H had driven away and returned while they were interviewing the children and me.

I filed a report, and haven't yet decided whether to press charges. They said it would be 3rd degree assault (pretty minor) - and unless he has a record of domestic violence/assault, were not sure how the prosecutor would handle the case. H has had incidents before, but I don't think any were ever charged/filed. The police gave me a list of domestic violence resources and told me it's up to me whether I want to press charges.

H is sleeping downstairs, I'm locked in the bedroom. I don't like having him here tonight, but didn't necessarily want to file a restraining order/kick him out, etc without talking to Steve. (next session, tomorrow at 6 am)

I'm going to find out from Steve whether this is serious enough to press charges? I don't know. I'm afraid I'm overreacting, but we have had tons of disagreements about his discipling the children....I don't want him doing it, and CERTAINLY not yanking them and dropping them on the floor. He's done things like this before with my children: manhandling them, shoving or grabbing them. I hate it.

I'm just not sure what to do next. I'm sure Steve will have some suggestions.

Oy Zhamila! I'm so sorry. I know you must feel so upset tonight.

I can't tell you what to do, but how would you feel about taking some deep breaths and releasing everything over to God so you can rest?

Steve will walk you through in just a few hours. Blessings, sweetie.

It is always the darkest before the dawn.

Hi Anointed! I've missed you and have been wondering how you're doing. I'll go check your thread.

Thank you for your kindness.

With respect, you need to do whatever is necessary to protect your children. Talk to SH about your marriage but don't rely on him to walk you through issues of child welfare.

i don;t know what to say except send you some hugs! praying for u

Update: We talked to Steve this morning. I heard no remorse from my H, just tons of justification for his actions, and minimizing. I told Steve that I have zero margin for error, not sure I want to be on the same team with H anymore. He said I can't fix my H, all I can do is work on me, so consider H's frustrations and try to understand them and work toward solving them. I am not sure about this, but will try for a few more days.

According to SH we need two things immediately:

1. H has an anger management problem. He hasn't admitted it yet. But his first responsibility is to research anger management strategies and share his progress with me, how it's going, talk about ideas and give me a sense of his progress.

2. Parenting plan. We discussed this tonight and developed a strategy. We started with goals (my goals are for the children's development...his were more focused on "controlling the children.") But we got past that, agreed on goals, and discussed effective learning methods like: example, respect, guidance, reinforcement, and natural consequences. Then we talked through one example. We'll do more soon.

You know, I'm not sure what is going on here. I expected Steve to take a harder line on H's AOs and abuse, but maybe he's not because I don't have that 'victim mentality?' Not sure. But this stuff escalates - it doesn't get better. I think he's trying everything he can think of to save the marriage and not give up.

On the other hand, Steve has saved way more marriages than I have (make that infinitely more!) - he can see things I cannot, and he has years of experience with really tough situations. He knows what works and what doesn't, and I think he not only has a great plan, he has good 'instincts.'

I'll keep doing what he suggests. More updates as I'm able.

Do you have HIS NEEDS HER NEEDS FOR PARENTS?

I think you already heard this but an excellent clip on blended families.
Radio clip on blended families

Thank you Loves!

Thanks BrainHurts - I'll listen to that again. Don't have HNHN for parents but have HNHN & have read every article on step-parenting/parenting on the MB site. I'll try to grab a copy at the library.

We talked about Anger Management last night - he's starting to see that it's a problem and we discussed his research. He seems willing to make changes and is becoming aware of the problem. This is good, and shows progress.

My struggle is, do I want to be the one who sticks around while he gets fixed? Do I want to take that risk? I'm not sure.

I had a headache all night and it got so bad this morning I threw up. I think it's stress.

I see potential in him....I am just really torn on whether I want to help him get there, or move on. There will be stress either way: the stress of separating or the stress of the relationship. If anyone out there has opinion either way, please share your thoughts?

Ugh.

Zhamilia -

I honestly have to repeat what Dr. Harley recommends with a spouse with these kind of anger problems; you should separate while he puts a full year into learning to manage his anger.

It's an abusive cycle, and he's following the normal cycle; escalation, apology, and there will again be escalation.

I believe Markos has described his own anger as an addiction.

You know I've put you to task about your own behavior, but there is no excuse for his frightening and dangerous behavior this last time, Zhamilia.

His behavior is not only a detriment to your love for him, it is a serious threat to you and your children.

Thanks for your thoughts, HHH.

I am truly torn, but am trying to be guided by Steve on this, and he didn't say, "separate."

Steve is on vacation for the next week. I wonder if this is a Dr. Harley radio question? I feel bad asking for air time if we're counseling w. Steve, but I wonder if Dr. Harley would say the same thing. Then again, Steve has more information on us - he's talked to us many times and heard both sides.

Marcos, do you have any thoughts on this? You've been there, in the H's shoes....what is your opinion? How about you Prisca? MelodyLane? CWMI? Any others?

Well, if my H had been physically aggressive with my then 3 year old son when we got together, I would have kicked him to the curb. He has been reluctant to discipline him the entire time (kid is now 15), even though I encourage it. He does do the "man talk" with him, in helping to guide him to good decisions, but his discipline is always run through me.

How are your kids feeling? Where are his kids? How is he with them vs yours?

What happened to your statement in March that step parenting was going well, no worries there? Is this new behavior?

If this is new that he gets nasty with the kids (and if you're not going to allow him to discipline them, how unfair of you to leave him alone with kids who think he has no control of them), it is probably re-directed anger.

I wonder, through, if your picker wasn't still off after the ex and FIL situation. Maybe you should be single. Maybe all the way until your kids are grown. Maybe by then you'll stop glossing over the things you don't want in a man, and as soon as you see something you don't like, you'll stop and hollar, "Next!" Keep the line moving, boys!"

Thanks for your thoughts, CWMI.



Yes, this is new behavior. In the past, he was not as angry as often, and in the past 2 months I've seen increased belligerence toward me and the children.


I want to be clear: he can certainly guide and redirect the children. My objections have been against AOs directed at the children, and physical punishment of the children. A calmly meted "discipline" such as time-out, removal of a privilege, etc with no anger would be perfectly acceptable. However, he has been violating this principle, over and over (AOs, physical aggression with them, etc), and has been increasingly 'demanding' they be punished (in my opinion, harshly) for relatively minor infractions (i.e. not hanging up a backpack, not rinsing out a milk bottle, forgetting to turn off a light, etc).

Here lately, I don't trust him to guide or redirect at all.



Here's where I am completely puzzled, CWMI. Remember weeks ago when I asked, "How did I pick someone who was so nice, and has done a complete 180?" H was a very patient, caring individual when we were dating/first married. He was great with the children, and they liked him. Dr. Harley's email to me said that he's a 'renter,' and this change is pretty common for renters. I wish I had known how to spot one.

I did email Steve regarding what I'm hearing on the forum v. what he's encouraged me to do. Not sure if he'll be able to reply.

I'm open to other posters' thoughts, if you'd like to share.

I would consider this push-back, then. Have you read the last couple of pages of my thread Duped? I had long, long had a problem with my H's IB, and he really ramped it up there before it just...stopped. I quit going ballistic in response, and he just pushed harder, kind of like, "Oh, THIS will really get her goat!" mmm...nope.

I still wouldn't tolerate physical (abuse?) toward the children.

What you are essentially describing (push back) is a shift from a state of withdrawal into a state of conflict.

That can be a good sign, it means LB$ deposits can be made.

I just have the amateur opinion that his anger is dangerous, and spouses can fall into conflict in good marriages as any long timer will tell you.

He needs anger management for himself, for his marriage, and for his children.

I will read your thread - I haven't seen it.



Thanks for your thoughts. Would you please explain what this means - separation, or something else?

I would calmly say to him that you feel/understand/recognize/have empathy for (your word of choice there) his frustration and you want to allow him room to work that out, because we all need to find healthy ways to relieve stress, and often we practice some pretty unhealthy ways before we find the way that works and doesn't kill anyone. (<<<that's you, smiling)

Ask him some things that have made him feel relieved. Share some ways you've been destructive/unhealthy in stress relief. Talk about new things you've found, or ask if he would be willing to try something you've found--a kickboxing class to take together, whatever. Physical exercise is a great stress reliever. Maybe you could take up running together. Maybe there's a marathon coming up that you could train together for.

Once you've reached an agreement on a stress-busting activity, to either do together or to practice alone, calmly smile and say "Thank you. I am so happy we could work this out. Because if you lay a hand on one of my children again, I will press charges and I will separate from you. I love you. I have to keep them safe. I am rooting for us, all of us."

I don't remember, does Steve want him in anger management? If so, include that as part of the conversation.

I would certainly take the advice of someone who heard both sides over anyone who only heard one, though.

Z,

So sorry to read of the new situation. I agree that right now you should defer to Steve and follow his advice and guidance.

I can only imagine how difficult a blended family situation would be, my H and I often disagree about discipline, and consequences for our shared children, but at least I know we always have our children's best interest at heart and have the same ultimate goals for them.

I agree that maybe it is unfair at this time to leave your children alone even in the same house with your H. You have stated you expected him to call you in to handle the situation. I think that is unfair and a mistake.

Although certainly not the same situation, this does remind me of a time fairly early on in my M, when my H and I were temporarily in the same house with another family member and children. They would often be in another area of the house and their oldest child would be where we were with our child, and she would often misbehave. This was quite annoying to us, and we found it both obnoxious and unacceptable. My H and I both made it clear we kept our child with us, were not baby sitters, and they were not to allow this. Needless to say this caused many problems, and my H and I had to end the living arrangement on bad terms.

I understand this is not the same situation, obviously the way your H handled your child was way out of line and should have never happened. At this point you do not want your H to discipline your children, so then it falls on you alone, it isn't fair to have it both ways.

Just another quick thought to add, you mentioned that your H gets upset about things you consider to be small, such as not hanging up back packs is an example you gave, and he wants you to punish the children when they do not follow through.

I get where you are coming from as I too would not see this as a major problem, BUT, I think in every home blended family or common children things like this happen. These are rules for the house your H expects to be followed.

We have things in our home that my H might be picky about that I don't see as important, and I don't "freak out" about these things but do require my children to respect the rules of the house regardless. They know some of these things are "dad's rules" but that I back him up on them, and they are to respect them as well.

Agreed. I said this to him tonight (slightly differently, talking about our parenting plan), "If you lay a hand on one of my children again, I will press charges and I will separate from you."

He said, "Are you threatening me?" I said, "No. I'm simply telling you what I will do if you touch my children again. You are in charge of your actions, and I'm in charge of mine. If you do it again, I will press charges and you will leave this home."

He said, "I don't think you'll be able to kick me out legally. How would you do that? No one would consider that abuse." I said, "I would get a restraining order."

Wow.

He is digging heels on the house. Why are you threatening to kick him out of his house? You said it was his house...for how long? You've been married three years, how long has he owned it, are you on the deed/mortgage/lease?

You SEPARATE.

Not throw him out of the place he was when you found him. You leave, if it was his place you moved your poor kids into.

Loved your thread, CWMI. I could relate to so many of your anecdotes! The blame-shifting, calling things LBs that aren't, wanting what he wants when he wants it - my feelings be d*mned. Saying I'm the one with the problem, he's being controlled, I "always get my way," all of it! Sheesh, did they all go to the same freaking school: Alaboutme U.?

Yes, Anger Management is a must. He's doing some research. Parenting Plan is a must. We're working on it daily.

You didn't separate, did you? I read your first 25 pages and the last 6 (whew!). Probably missed stuff, will return & finish.

Actually, it's my house. Bought it before I met him, all by myself. His name's not on anything.

Okay. i misunderstood somethin you said earlier, and thought it was his house you all lived in. Is there legal separation where you are?

We never separated. It was TOUGH. We have three children together, or I would not have worked so hard. I did not want to be a single parent (and you read my solution to that, right? Fine, leave, YOU get custody. He didn't want to be single parent, either. Threatened to divorce the mother of his kids, didn't want to take the kids? Justify that, mfer! Lol. )

I would not have married him if I didn't mean forever. But I didn't mean 'whatever' either. I was very persistent, without making every day a "let's talk about our relationship!" day, kwim? Common complaints could be expressed simply by leaving the room, pleasantly, Not gonna hang out for it!

This part blows my mind...we have completely different goals in parenting AND he does not have the children's best interest in mind. His goals are "control them, they must obey." Mine are, "Develop their minds, emotions, and skills so they'll be adults who contribute good things to the world." He is big on getting "respect," not realizing that respect is usually earned, not demanded.

He thinks forgetting to hang a backpack is "disrespectful." He takes it as a personal affront to his "authority," (his words, not mine). Then he IBs by hiding the backpack, and my son was late to school looking for it.

He treats his daughter that way, too. He's actually told me, "If I tell DD not to do something (like drink, have sex, etc), she'll obey. She won't do it." Really? She's 17, get real. And he conveniently forgets that she's already been in trouble for drugs and has a bad-boy boyfriend who's been suspended multiple times for fighting in school, and who smokes, does pot, and drinks (info from mom-friends who see him when we're not around). It's great that he has so much control over her. (sarcasm)

We did discuss a parenting plan. Started with Goals, then Proven Methods for Effective Behavior Change, then talked specific scenarios, keeping those goals & methods as our guide. He seemed to buy in, though kept falling back to the "disrespectful" "must obey" stuff. We wrote it all down, etc, but I still don't have the gut-level sense that he really agrees. Control is really important to him in work, parenting, driving, punctuality, everything.

We'll see.

Yes.



Me too. And when the promises of care & safety are violated over and over, then it's pretty tough to stick around ...I'm sure you're familiar.

Is this your first marriage? Your footnote leads me to believe it's your 2nd, is that right?

How was your H pre-marriage?

I'm encouraging AM classes. Wonder if this should be a condition of continuing to work on the M? Hm, probably.

I would make it a condition.

OK, good thought. I'll bring this up tomorrow.

Thanks.

My WH and I both had anger problems. Until we fixed that, our M wasn't going to heal and we also have a blended family.

If we don't POJA the discipline then we don't do it.

All I have to say now is " if we don't enthusiastically agree we don't do it"

I can only change me and how I react to him. One thing for sure was I knew how to "push his buttons" which was very unhealthy. I had to stop that. I would just exit the room with no abusive remarks.

It is both of our 2nds.

Before marriage, I would say my H was fantastic. In one of my threads (I ended up witth quite a few...) I talked about that, and why I thought that. He is a salesman, and he sold me, by mirroring. Everything I liked, he liked. Everything I wanted, he wanted. Marriage was perfect for two people so perfect for each other! So I thought...

I didn't really understand the technique until I took a short-term job in sales. Everything kind of came together for me after years of fighting, learning about mirroring and gaslighting and going hey, wait a dam minute! That was followed by a few years of roller coasters, rock bottom, elated highs, rough times, and eventually comfort and random periods of ecstacy.

I would NOT have done that with a man who I did not have children with.

My 1st ended after physical abuse, RO, and I put him in jail 6x for violating the RO. My oldest son, the only one of my 4 children who is not biologically H's, was concieved in the time period between marriages (which was five years). His father is still in his life, and H and I have an amicable relationship with the dad. He lives two states away. I don't know if that is relevant to you. My son's father and I never lived together. We tried to, but when we were looking at places to rent, he told me that if I was going to be with him I would need to lower my standards, and I believed him. And dumped him, pregnant, and rented my own place that met my standards. Lol. I wish all people would be so unintentionally poignantly honest.

OMFG!(that's "freaking") That's exactly what happened to me. He seriously played chameleon and started liking everything I liked, wanting everything I wanted, etc. Funny how that doesn't last.....

And even though we don't have children together, I still have incentive to try:

1. I made a commitment (not 'unconditional' but not tossed aside lightly, either)
2. Stability - financial, relational etc. Somehow I have way more friends married than I had single. Sucks, but it's true. I don't know if people trust married people more or what. Also, I make good money, but it's nice not to have to 'watch it' all the time.
3. Someone 'has my back' - like helping run errands, fixing stuff around the house, etc.
4. Getting divorced is a pain in the *ss. Who gets the symphony season tickets? Who gets the convertible? Will we seriously split up the china/crystal? etc.
5. I don't want to fail again. That would suck, even though I know it's not 'my fault'

Good strategy. Good that you both recognized it and agree to POJA.

We're getting there! We finalized our parenting plan today & I think we're in a pretty good place. Now, to implement it.

Giving credit where credit is due today:

My H sat down with me and we finalized our Parenting Plan - woohoo! I feel really good about the plan, and about the boundaries we set. We highlighted some examples of recent stressful events and talked through the goals, problems, tactics and step-by-step instructions. I am very, very encouraged.

Also, he (on his own) researched AM classes, emailed an instructor and got scheduling and pricing information. There's a 10 week course for $400 in our area. He was thinking of doing the online version for $65, but I said that this is such a serious issue that I'd rather he attend a "real class" rather than push buttons to get through some material online. He's going to go, which also encourages me very much. (Bonus! Maybe he'll meet some cool local convicts & get some sweet neck tattoo ideas, huh?)

I told him I'm impressed, that I am really looking forward to a long, happy life with him, and I'm glad we're making progress.

Then I did something I haven't wanted to do in a long time: I hugged and kissed him really nicely. I told him he's been a "good boy today," to which he replied, "you've been a bad girl." (which means he's turned on, so that's a good thing)

I'm trying to keep it steady, wait and gauge our progress. But I can't help rejoicing over this turn of events. I have hope today.

...maybe Steve should go out of town more often, huh? (kidding!)

LOL @ neck tattoos.

Follow through. That's all I can say; follow through.


Some of this may be, as stated, your H shifting from withdrawal into conflict - and (even better) his cooperative attitude could be signs of peaks into a state of intimacy.

Z, keep your side of the street as clean as you can and watch the results!

Yes, always.

I will note that HIS choices will be the most critical component of our success. And I will HAPPILY give him all the credit when it happens.

Will they, Z?


This is a marriage. It's 50/50. 2 become 1 flesh.

You have a load to carry in this, and YOUR choices, YOUR actions contribute to the over all health of the marriage.

This will become more apparent when your marital state shifts from withdrawal, to conflict, to intimacy.

If you base your success on his choices, you set yourself up for much frustration and feelings of failure, my friend. Whose life are you talking about? Isn't it yours?

Your choices are crucial. I love talking about stuff, but I'm a girl. Please limit your planning exercises to once a week, and enjoy the rest of your lives together. You exhaust me, and I LIKE planning and analyzing. It is my favorite activity. It often gets in my way of actually doing anything. Go have fun!

With all due respect, I have been living by the MB principles this entire time. I'm not the one blowing up with abusive behavior, getting ready to go to AM classes, disagreeing with the POJA, bucking against living by it, etc. HIS improvement and choices will be what makes us successful, because they are light-years further from "good marriage behavior" than mine. This is why I said he'll get the credit - he was further to go.

I cannot do his job. I can only do mine, and I have been doing it. That's the reason I called Steve, the reason I have written to the radio show multiple times, the reason I've read every Harley book multiple times. There is responsibility on BOTH SIDES....one of us has not been doing "his" job.

As I've done AM research, the lightbulb has gone on for me: it is impossible for someone with Anger issues to live by MB concepts, because they are full of anger and blame. The Anger Busters director says, "I can't work on a marital relationship with a rager right away. He's not ready until he's willing to be wrong, accept blame, let go of his anger/narcissism, etc."

...And I might add that Steve told us to "record ourselves as often as possible." He said (wisely) when H was angry about being recorded surreptitiously - "so H, if you had KNOWN you were being recorded, you would have done something differently? Then what WERE you saying/doing? I mean, you should be interacting according to your job REGARDLESS of whether you are being recorded, right?" Whoa, quick backpedal from H! "Of course I am behaving properly whether I'm being recorded or not."

Whew.

And furthermore, when I heard Friday's radio program, where a woman (Brittany) said all she had to do was talk to her H about a problem. He immediately "apologized" and they fixed the problem. I was blown away!!!

This has not been my experience with my H. When I bring up problems - however carefully stated, absolutely without LBs - he gets p*ssed off that I even mentioned anything. Empathy is not his forte.

Please note that H's definition of "honesty" is he only wants to hear Positive Things! (this is on his EN questionnaire). Seriously? Steve called him on that last week as well....that he doesn't want to hear anything unless it's wonderful. H isn't ready to receive real information that would be helpful to this marriage.

Not my problem, can't fix it. He will have to either do it or not.

Z,
Remember that we're talking about deprogramming,engrained behaviors. Some individuals take longer than others to make changes.

Many men fall into the trap of getting defensive when their wives complain. I remember when my wife and I started practicing MB principles, I was enthusiastic about creating a great marriage. Part of the changes I had to make was to stop taking my wife's complaints as a personal attack, getting defensive, and throwing it in her face what she was doing wrong. In the beginning, we'd have good days and other days we'd be screaming at each other. Now I can't even remember the last time my wife and I raised our voices to each other. I'm at a place now where if my wife expresses a complaint, I respond with an apology and a restatement of the complaint that I'm hearing her say. And then I don't repeat X action that upsets her.

My wife, on the other hand, had to work on expressing one complaint at a time rather than bottling stuff up for weeks and throwing a ton of stuff at me at one time. Well, that and not approaching me in an angry, disrespectful manner. Years ago a complaint from her would typically start with her saying "would you stop being a fu#@ing a..hole?!" And then follow it up with a string of complaints along with other choice words.

It takes a lot of work and practice. And it certainly doesn't happen overnight or even in a short few weeks.

Today I'm very thankful that we don't have those wonderful days where we'd start screaming at each other during car rides with me getting out of the car, my wife driving off, and me having to walk miles home.

Well said, KT. This is so true. I have noticed that my husband has adjusted to hearing complaints much better than me. He listens respectfully and then agrees to stop doing it/start doing it. I still catch myself going into defense mode and have to stop and remind myself that complaints are good for marriage.

Wow, KT, that's awesome! Thanks for the encouragement. What turned it around for you?

^


You see this lady here, Z?


Look what she said!

What's your point, HHH?

Found some inspiring quotes today:

"The measure of success is not whether you have a tough problem to deal with, but whether it is the same problem you had last year." - John Foster Dulles

"Wisdom is knowing what to do next; virtue is doing it." - David Starr Jordan

Well... I think you've been here longer than me... so...


read a lot of what/how Mel posts?


Pretty straight-to-the-point most of the time. A lot of people react like it's a "holier-than-thou" spiel.

But... it's not!


When she brings up her own experience, she has a lot of mistakes and misconceptions that she owns right up to. CWMI is coming with a lot of that lately, too!


These are both very strong, intelligent women who have learned that utilizing MB and measuring their own contributions to the state of their marriage does not threaten their strength, dignity, integrity, or intelligence.


Dunno... don't really have a point... just kind of in awe some times...

I just wanted to say that I read all the way through your thread and empathize with your situation. The way you have described your feelings are much like how I feel, and the way you describe your H is much how I would describe mine (minus the anger issue).

I hope there is light at the end of the tunnel! I am starting back at MB again...starting right now.

Z, just a note on complaining and your H's desire to only hear positive things:

You can do that! And it is surprisingly effective. I can help you. Just think of some complaint you have, and what you would like instead of whatever he is or is not doing. Like intimate conversation...you complained that you don't have intimate conversations. But you had one the other night. So next time you feel like complaining about NOT having intimate conversations, talk positively about that one.

Instead of saying: We don't talk enough. I don't feel close to you when we don't have deep conversations. Why don't you ever want to talk with me? (negative, negative, negative!)

Say: I was just thinking about that night we talked about nature vs. nurture. I loved that night! I felt so close to you. I love it when you talk with me like that. Want chicken for dinner?

If you want an exercise, write out your top five most common complaints, and find positive ways to encourage what you want instead. Reframe the conversation, give the man something positive to build on. It's not going to hurt you. And like I said, it is an effective way to complain without complaining.

My husband annoys me by rearranging the dishwasher while I am loading it. I used to respond by telling him he was annoying the crap out of me and if he kept it up, I was going to leave the task to him. Game on! Why can't I just learn how to load, etc, why do you have to tell me how to do everything, yuk. Now he pretty much leaves me to it, or he does it and I leave him to it, but on those occasions when we forget what a battleground the dishwasher can be, I can smile sweetly and say, "I really love it when you let me finish cleaning up and you go relax after working so hard all day." He knows it means he's annoying me. But isn't it nicer? Lol.

CWMI and Triple H, Of course Mel (but she gets enough of that).

You both are awesome. I'm just saying.

Thanks Gdar! Welcome back, and I'm sure there's light at the end of the tunnel!

I've read a little of your thread, I'll work through it. We can encourage each other as we go

Good idea, CWMI. Marriages with potential would really benefit from that advice.

I'm not sure how effective it will be to reframe some of his abusive behaviors (annoying is one thing, abusive is another, e.g. "I love it when you don't yell at and threaten me and the kids. It makes me feel so safe and cared for." Wha??) Seriously though, I get it when it's about an EN.

Our biggest block to progress right now is his anger and abuse/control. That's why we've been going round and round for 1 1/2 years now with nothing to show for it - this has been a HUGE lightbulb for me. Once he overcomes this issue, we will be able to work together on MB principles. Kinda like an alcoholic: no matter how hard a spouse works on the marriage, until the addiction is gone, nothing can be solved.

I'm keeping your advice for a day when we'll be able to effectively use it. And I was kind to him today - not too sappy/warm (I'm too afraid/determined-to-be-safe right now) - but kind in a quiet way.

Right now, I'm watching him be nice for a few days, wondering when it'll happen again. And before anyone tells me I should be "forgiving," or "come on, quit looking for the fly in the ointment!" I will remind them that safety is too important to leave to chance. I am vigilant and must be until he gets real help & shows progress.

This weekend, in the interest of "health and safety" I told our weekly small group friends, some other dear church friends, and the associate pastor a little bit about what's up.

I need others in our lives to know what we're dealing with, and I want the safety of other people knowing what is going on. They can encourage, pray, and hold us accountable.

Seriously, KT, what turned this around for you? I'm looking for signs of life/hope. If you can tell me what to look for, I'd be glad to go hunting for it.

"I have really enjoyed your company the last few days."

Is that too difficult for you to say?

Do you think your marriage has potential? If not, why not quit now? I thought you said the anger was new. Is it? Can you let go enough to recognize the push-back effect I talked about?

If you are that worried about safety, you would separate until AM is completed. I am having a hard time believing that you fear for your safety, and that of your children, if you are not doing that.


Good luck with that! What's your plan again?

It's not too difficult - but it would be dishonest.

What would be honest? Is there anything you can draw on from your history together to use as positive reinforcement?

I'd like to hear your answers to the above questions also.

No, I said he's had 4 other incidents of physical aggression in this past year and 1/2. However, since we've been counseling, it seems to have happened more often and to escalate in intensity.

Additionally, there has been NO apology or remorse for the latest 2 incidents...this is what concerns me the most. Only minimizing, blame, and justification.




Well, because MB principles have saved even the worst marriages: those wracked with adultery, abuse, and even addiction.

Plus, my H agreed to go to AM. I'm watching his progress with cautious optimism.

Sure, I sincerely thanked him for my last year's MD present (used it tonight)...it was a thoughtful gift that I did not give him much appreciation for at the time. I apologized for that and told him how much I enjoy it & how grateful I am for his thoughtfulness.

Also sincerely thanked him for helping with dinner for the peeps tonight.

I am thinking of ways to reframe my EN complaints as well, though I have tried this in the past and received defensiveness and blame no matter how gently stated. That's why I said I'm going to try it when we're in a healthier place.

My plan is to listen to Steve and do what he says. He did not tell me to separate before he went on vacation....if you remember from my previous posts, I have been struggling with this all week, seeking advice from others as to whether I should have taken more drastic measures.

In the meantime, I'm holding it together until he returns.

And my H has agreed to go to the next AM session - this is a good sign.

You ever think that trying healthier alternatives could improve the health of your marriage, now?

If I had waited, I would be divorced now.

I agree with listening to Steve.

I caution against thinking it will be an insta-solution. For us, it took a year after Steve for my H to buy in fully. You have to be patient, or you will get in your own way.

CWMI, you of all people should understand the barrier that abuse builds in a relationship.

In your marriage, you were dealing with major IB and thoughtlessness, which is painful enough. We've got some pretty serious other crap on top of a bunch of IB and thoughtlessness.

Would you have taken your own advice with your abusive baby-dad? And how would you have responded if someone told you to just 'try harder' with him?

Well, I don't like it.

I didn't have any children with my abusive ex. He cracked my ribs with the butt of a shotgun, and I left, putting 3000 miles between us.

If you are being physically abused, you need to leave. Period.

I'll stop posting to you.

Good point, Brain. What got you guys over the anger problems? Was it the same thing for both you and your H?

Z,
I have heard Dr. Harley say that the very first step is for a person to accept that no one makes them angry. For any of us, we have to accept that although someone or some situation can cause us frustration or distress, we DON'T have to act in anger. With that understanding and belief, one then has the ability to start problem solving inside themselves on how to deal with frustration without displaying anger (like presented in Lovebusters). Sometimes when first learning how to change from rage to calm, as much as you possibly can, provide the least frustrating environment you can. Maybe that's what SH meant about provoking: you may not feel that you are provoking, but maybe go further for the time being and think about what frustrations you two can remove so that it is easier for your husband to practice the exercises described by Dr. Harley. �This could pave the way to being able to really get into problem solving in the end.

We both attended anger management, read Lovebusters and listened to Dr. H's anger mgmt.

Also we learned to put our marriage first above all of our 7 kids. When I stopped the verbal abuse and questioned things they way Dr. H teaches it was the ticket.

The lighbulb for me was when Dr. Harley told me "No BrainHurts your WH doesn't control your anger, you control yourself" "It takes two people to fight and you're one of the two."

Thanks for the answers, Brainhurts! What is "Dr. H's anger mgmt?" Were they specific radio programs/part of the online course or something?

Maybe someday we'll try reading LoveBusters again. We have thus far been unsuccessful in getting through it together.

Also, he found an AM course, but I'm wondering if there's one covered by our insurance. Gonna find out.



That's insightful. Thanks for sharing.

This is good, LifeLongLearner. I am looking forward to his AM classes - perhaps he'll have more self-awareness and be able to communicate those situations that he finds provoking. Then we can work on solutions.

I am not sure if you have seen this or not .. but maybe it will give you some perspective.

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2575873#Post2575873


Check it out .. watch the vids in that thread. They are VERY short and fall right along with MB.

MNG

Z,

Here it is Anger Mgmt 101

Z,

A lot of things turned it around. I wanted to be a better husband. She wanted to be a better wife. We were completely willing to do follow with the meeting ENs, stopping LBs, and spending UA time.

We were both very reactionary towards each other. She'd wait to bring up several issues at once...many times in a demeaning manner. I'd get defensive and it'd turn into ScreamFest2000. As we followed the MB program, things got better. Now keep in mind it took months to really get into the spin of things. In the first weeks we'd have good days and then a bad day. Now bad days are very very rare. And we're at the point now to where if one of us does something to upset the other, we can pull the other one aside and say, "I'd appreciate it if you don't...." Or "I felt insulted when you..." Or "it's really not cool when you..." And if it's my wife saying that to me or me to my wife, then we're quick to say, "I'm sorry, I didn't mean to offend you when...." Or, "my bad. I apologize, I won't do.... again." And follow it up with a hug, kiss, and a smile.
We do a lot of drive by stuff too.

My wife and I both want each other to let each other know when we upset the other one because we don't want to do those irritants that mess up the mood. I tend to be a bit more easy to express frustration. My wife is a bit more like Melody in that she's a bit more defensive minded. I think it might have to do with how men and women are just wired a bit different.

But it wasn't that long ago when my wife would approach me with "hey! What the F%$k is wrong with you?! You know it pisses me off when you....!"

Then, of course, I'd go into defense from being attack mode and tell her if she wasn't being such a witch that...." Then she'd mouth off and I'd throw something.

Now I've never hit my wife. My wife did slap me once when we were fighting. I was quick to tell her if she ever put her hands on me again, she'd find herself single. I'm a firm believer that guys shouldn't hit women but also shouldn't allow women to hit them. This just makes you look unattractive and like a punk. I also believe that if you hit someone, you're a fool if you don't expect to get hit back no matter what gender you are. So to alleviate this issue, I just don't deal with relationships that involve domestic abuse.

However, it wasn't uncommon for me to get mad and throw something or hit a wall or knock stuff over. This never really bothered my wife because she knew that I'd never cause physical harm to her. She'd just say "I hope it was worth your jacked up hand hitting the wall" or something like that. And, honestly, I would have been very insulted if my wife had said she felt unsafe around me because I had never even shown the slight amount of aggression towards her physically. Emotionally now...well, we were both pretty bad to each other.

If I remember right, the first thing I started doing rather than getting into a yelling match was I'd just go take a walk. It didn't take all that long before the yelling got further and further apart. And then it got to the point to where it became that she and I couldn't even remember the last time we had an angry outburst towards each other.

I have no idea if that helped or not. But, honestly, we didn't really use anything other than Marriage Builders material here on the site, me getting guidance from some of the forum members, and using the Love Busters book. Stopping the Love Busters and spending UA time together made a world of difference. This set up us wanting to meet those ENs of the other.

The only other thing I can think of is I started to really embrace what one counselor told me when I was a teenager. It's basically that you control how you react. Essentially if you don't want to flip out and throw things...well, don't. It is you that is control of how you react and respond.

I like that first video. I'll dig through and watch the others too. Thanks for sharing, MNG.

My H and I tried to make it through the Pink n Blue Bible Study last year....but we got really stuck at the beginning. He started saying things like, "Well, you're just pink and I'm blue, so that's why you feel that way. I can't do anything about it," or "You need to RESPECT me - that's what the bible study said." It was so painful, and I quit going because it just made things worse for us.

It's been a really strange year. Things that make so much sense to me, things that I learn and become a better person for having learned - they haven't had quite the same effect on my H. It's almost as if they make things worse and I don't understand why. I could give so many examples (like his learning the LBs, then calling things DJs that aren't. Like my saying, "I don't like it when you travel for business," - and the response I get is: "You don't trust me! That's a DJ!" Or he calls withdrawal a LoveBuster...it's an "AO when I get quiet and avoid" him. Steve works to set it all straight, but 1 hour a week is pretty tight to try and explain everything.

I just don't understand.

I'm looking forward to Monday - next Steve session. I'm feeling a little bummed again.

Thanks BrainHurts! I heard these on the original day...will listen again with an applied ear.

Thanks for telling your story, KT! It helps to hear how you and your wife overcame all that on your own (I mean by using the books/forum etc). That's pretty impressive, in my opinion.

So at 11 pm tonight...after we've talked about the summer nanny for months and months, gotten everything ready for her arrival (same one we've had for 3 years now), discussed finances over and over, and even touched base on this yesterday...he says he's "not enthusiastic" about her coming TOMORROW at 11 am. (school ends tomorrow)

He came home from his business trip tonight and started pointing out everything that bothers him: a dish left here, a child in the bathroom too long, a kid using nail clippers. (OK, sorry - accomodate - OK,sorry - accomodate - OK, etc)

OMG - I actually had 2 happy days without him. I've got that old tightness/nervousness in my chest now that he's back.

This sucks.

Have you seen this?
Traveling Jobs

Totally agree, BrainHurts. His overnight travel used to be a real issue for us, and was never resolved. It's kind of what got everything started on the downhill slide: his job became more important than our marriage. He got angry, I withdrew. Add 1.5 years and here we are.

So sad.....

So any plans for him to change jobs so there's no traveling?

We've discussed this issue quite a bit and finally have a plan that I will accompany him on overnights. So far it has never panned out: this last trip I was going to go, but my boss plopped a huge director's retreat on top of it...not something I could easily miss.

So I stayed here. He did cut his trip down, and I've already put in PTO requests for his next 2 trips. Problem is, I don't have as much vacation as he does, and we have 4 kids. Not easy, but doable.

The main thing that bothers me is how angry and dismissive of my feelings he's been on this - and many other - issues. It's exhausting to be married to someone who hates the POJA, does what he wants, then blames me for all our problems.

Dr. H says women usually love the POJA, and men typically have hard time accepting it. Too bad we can't all marry women.

I hear you, Z. I hear you! Having 4 kids and going anywhere is certainly not an easy feat, especially if you do not have much support.


I completely relate to this: "The main thing that bothers me is how angry and dismissive of my feelings he's been on this - and many other - issues. It's exhausting to be married to someone who hates the POJA, does what he wants, then blames me. "

Thanks, Gdar.

Well, someting kind of magical happened last night. Here's the scoop:

H said several times this week, "Fine, let's separate." or "Fine, let's build an exit strategy." Mostly in response to disagreements like what time we should turn on the AC, when we should discuss the budget, etc. Not real helpful.

So I asked him yesterday why he kept saying that, is that what he wants? He said no, that's what I want (hmmm, really?). So I told him that's not what I want, I want a great marriage. Could we agree not to use that threatening phrase anymore, because it hijacks me and I have a harder time solving our problems? He agreed.

So...with that out of the way, we agreed to meet for dinner after my DDs dance recital dress rehearsal.

At dinner, he started doing 'verbal jiu-jitsu' with me. When I complained about something, he said, "I think I'm hearing you say X, is that right?" Yes. "And you'd feel better if I did Y, right?" Wow, yes! "OK, that's what I'll do." I teased him, "What are you doing? Are you my therapist now?" - it was cute and we laughed.

He told me it's a strategy Steve had taught him. His main motivation for using it was so I didn't go "on and on" about something. I said I LOVE it! It makes me feel heard and seen.

He kept doing that all night. It was awesome. Here's the magic:

For the first time in months, I ENJOYED his company and I want MORE of him.

I had forgotten how great that feels! I am happy today.

And yes, I told him, "I really enjoyed your company last night. I had so much fun with you!" I'm gonna go hug him (he likes that).

Yay Z! That is so great! Wonder why he waited to pull that outta his hat?! The good news cleary, he IS listening and did apply Steve's advice. That is huge, go Mr. Z!

Isn't it so great to actually enjoy spending time with your man, and even look forward to it? I actually look forward to my H getting home from work now, and his days off. It's funny something must be in the air...my H did some great communicating last night as well.

I thought he was trying to delay some UA time to finish a TV program, I was very upset....so I pouted for a minute (bad plan) then actually told him why I was upset...turns out was simple misunderstanding, and he did a great job explaining AND letting me know I AM his top priority! He did say a couple things at first that I didn't like, but self corrected.


Hope you and your H have a great weekend together. I look forward to the next update!

UGH! Please just ignore typo's I can't type (or spell) today at all for some reason.

Your husband just dropped a hint.


I suggest you listen to it.

Z,

That's exactly how my wife and I started addressing each others complaints. It was a tactic taught to us by a marriage class at our church. It's a neat trick because often men and women misunderstand each other because of communication styles. She would often take things for more than I was saying and she would often mean what she said but not always say what she meant. This way both people are clear.

YES! Go Mr. Z!

TisMe, that's great you are enjoying time with your H too. So happy for you! (that self-correcting thing they do really helps, don't it - wink!)

Glad it works for you too, KT! I sure do like it.

Funny you say this, HHH...I did catch it and listened. Then we joked about it for a while, cause I said, "I'm hearing you say you don't like it when I go on and on about something, right? And you dislike it when I say things over and over, or when I just repeat myself and say the same things time and time again. Is that right?"

...anyway, it was funny to us, and I learned something.

Update: this weekend continued to be pretty good, with us caring for one another and having fun.

I will say that sometimes I get annoyed by his playing on his new Kindle (literally for hours and hours) - but I think the glow is still there so I'm more willing to overlook things (I do tell him when it starts to bug me). And I notice when he does seek out my companionship, so it feels good.

We went out last night and had a great time. We had breakfast together, went to the pool and bought fun things together today.

We are going out tonight again, so that's fun.

Session with Steve in the morning. My Love Bank Inventory was higher than it's been since we started, though I still feel ambivalent about certain things...time and continued progress should take care of those eventually.

We met with Steve this morning. We talked about our parenting plan, trust, and how to complain 'correctly.' We also talked about how great H's new strategy of "verbal jiu jitsu" works...that it really feels good to be seen and heard. Steve said it's all good, keep doing what we're doing, check in daily with each other on things like parenting, etc. He pointed out that we're discovering that teamwork and coordinated effort really brings about great feelings for each other. AMEN.

Steve recommended a group AM course rather than individual counseling. I was hoping we could do something through insurance, but if the group sessions work better (not covered by insurance), then I'm ok to pay out of pocket.

Steve asked me one-on-one if I feel safe. I said yes, because I have a plan if anything else happens and have made my expectations clear. However, I have seen a few things that tell me we're not 'there' yet...and four days of goodness doesn't make a marriage. So I am cautiously optimistic. He said good, keep going. I also told him that I unilaterally told 3 couples at our church what is going on because I felt like I needed a safety net of sorts. He said that's also good. He said it's also ok to feel ambivalent...there's nothing wrong with wanting to see continued progress.

I asked him what I can be doing now. He said, "Be encouraging. Not 'woohoo, we've arrived!' encouraging, but just tell H that you are pleased with the progress so far, it seems to be working, and you're hopeful that it will continue to work as we go." That's easy, I've been doing that already.

He really doesn't tell me to do much, which is interesting. He also didn't wring me out for not meeting H's ENs for 4 days post-AO last week. I told him I avoided LBs, but really didn't have the heart to meet H's ENs. But I'm doing it now. I always feel safe talking to Steve, and I'm always surprised when he doesn't chew me out. What's up with that?

Anyway, we're going to keep at it and talk to Steve again on Friday.

I think H is feeling pretty good too. He said it seems to be working and he feels good about it, so that's good.

I will give an update on our last few days later...met with Steve yesterday.

While I can see some progress, I'm starting to believe that this is going to be harder than I thought.

Do people really change? I mean, habits can be changed (people lose weight, stop smoking, etc) - but do people fundamentally transform? I think they have to do it from the inside, and no one can "make" them, only encourage their efforts.

These are the thoughts going through my mind now. Steve is great, but he cannot 'effect' change - only we can do that.

Hmmmm. (Philosophy again....)

And then what follows this line of thinking is...


what?

Warning: If you are a die-hard optimist, this is a moment of pessimism so you may want to skip this post.

We continue to cycle in and out of good/bad days. I'd really like to see this marriage turn around once and for all....but some days I have my doubts.

We're in week 10 of counseling with Steve and I don't see sustained improvement. Steve told me to be 'encouraging' and I'm trying, but some days I am so sick inside I can barely go on.

And I've been reading CWMI's thread "Duped" in which she talks about their continuing struggles, even after 6 months of MB counseling. Her H still struggles with the POJA - seriously, driving the boat in a way that frightens your wife out of her wits? This isn't rocket science - why is it so hard for some people?



I want to ask Steve about our prognosis. Any good doctor can tell you what the "odds" are - I'd like to know ours before we continue treatment. There's only so much emotional energy a person has: I want to put it where it's gonna show a return on investment.

Sigh.

It isn't rocket science, and my marriage spans 12 years, and if scaring me on the boat is the worst of it, I'm just a lucky gal married to an overgrown teen who I can beat at scaring with a plastic spider...lol.

You are in or you are out.

That determines your prognosis.

And either you're all the way in or all the way out.

You keep being up and down on here, imagine what your H must feel.

You've been here for over 6 years.

Z, what happened? It seemed you had turned a major corner and were making such GREAT progress....but your last few post's have been quite different. Hmmmmm...it seems to be a pattern?

Are you guys getting in the 20 hours of UA time every week? Are you guys meeting all 4 needs consistently? I just wonder because some weeks seem so good and others don't. I know you have mentioned you both work full time, he travels for work AND you have young children.

Hi all -

CWMI and BrainHurts - I appreciate your thoughts, and I'm not sure I agree. Steve hasn't ever told me that "I'm either in or I'm out, and this determines our prognosis," but I will certainly ask him. I don't think ambivalence is a flaw, it's a feeling, and he's actually advised me to be cautious at this point. Anyway, I appreciate your enthusiasm and will definitely include it when I talk to Steve.

And for the record, just because I go up and down on this forum doesn't mean I am doing this to my H - in fact, posting here helps me to be more measured in how I interact with him. The ADs help, too I've been doing what I need to do - I just get really discouraged when I don't see sustained progress on H's part. I'm scheduling our sessions, keeping things on the front burner, doing my checklist, sending the stuff Steve asks for. But these cycles wear me out.

TisMeAgain - You are right: this is a pattern. I keep seeing little jumps of progress, then it goes back to how it was. My H seems to be able to keep it going for a few days, then falls back into old habits. I don't have any LB$ reserve to keep a steady feeling of love for him - so when we have setbacks, the bank goes in the red. It's like having $5 bucks in your account - any little purchase pushes it over the edge.

Maybe other people with longer marriages and kids together have more 'rationale' to stay together. We've got none of this, so we need to be even more diligent about our LB$ balances, I guess.

TisMe: We don't spend 20 hours of UA time together. I actually asked Steve about this a few weeks ago and he said we'd probably do more harm than good at this point. I'll ask him again.

I didn't post last Friday's session on here, but it was kind of a doozy - several things were done and said by H that discouraged me greatly - glad Steve was there to help navigate it all.

Giving credit where credit is due: He made me coffee this morning, which was very nice. I looked in his eyes and thanked him sincerely, hugged and kissed his cheek.

We had dinner with some dear friends last night who know that we're struggling. They asked questions, listened & prayed with us. They were encouraging. It's good to have friends who know and love us both.

Z - it feels like you use each situation to evaluate whether or not you two can make it in the long run. That has to be stressful for both you and your H. You two are currently on a path working toward fixing your marriage and you are learning, you aren't going to be perfect.

Can you try to view each slip up as a learning opportunity rather than evidence that you are doomed? You could set a deadline for yourself, like 1 year from now, to evaluate if this has all paid off and then allow yourself to experience the ride until then.

I only responded to you again because you mentioned me specifically, but I feel compelled to ask you about Steve saying that spending time together would do more harm than good?

What (as exactly as you remember) did he say? I am deeply suspicious that his statement was misinterpreted, but not intentionally. I say that from experience with a spouse who didn't want to spend time with me during coaching with Steve. Things were misinterpreted.

Penni, this is really good advice. Thanks. I'll take it!

Good question, CWMI. I was frankly shocked by Steve's response. I asked him (one-on-one), "I'm surprised you haven't given us the 15 hours a week assignment yet. When do we have to do that?" Steve said (something like), "Well, we have to start with the basics, lay the proper foundation first. It's kind of like physical fitness: if you start trying to lift heavy weights before you're in shape, you'll hurt yourself. We'll work up to that. I think at this point it would do more potential harm than good." And he literally has not assigned us "time together" yet: Only EN & LB checklists, and eliminating LBs completely (like my Hs AOs)...which is taking time.

Sometimes I feel like we're in preschool, or Short-Bus MB.

Anyway, in sum his approach is sometimes very different from what I expect. He doesn't push me to commit, he's not insisting on anything. He just encourages us to do things that help our teammate feel safe and cared for.

I should qualify: I will do my best to remember this when I'm discouraged.

**EDIT**

Ouch. I don't like your approach.

Then don't mention me in your threads, okay? I promise to stay away from your thread unless you mention me or use me as an example. Okay?

Sometimes the best advice comes from those that are hard to hear.

The forums aren't like they were 6 years ago when everyone just complained about their spouses and "supported" each other with "your spouse is the bad one and you don't need to change they do". Sometimes it was very difficult to read and watch the storms.

They teach and direct with Dr. Harley's concepts now.

Okay?

I am done with you unleas you mention me again.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8505_fft.html

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8116_coach.html




There is a video that can be found on Youtube that is a lecture given by a man named Randy Pausch on "Really Achieving Your Childhood Dreams," it was alternatively named "The Last Lecture."

Pausch was a professor at Carnegie Mellon University, and began giving the lecture after he had been diagnosed with terminal cancer of the liver.

Around the 9 minute mark of the video, he talks about playing High School football, and having the coach be "hard" on him.

One of the other coaches pulled him aside and said; That's a good thing. When you are screwing up and nobody is saying anything, that means they gave up.

Your critics are the ones who are telling you they still care.


I see that here. Every day. When people KNOW what they need to do, and refuse to do it... people give up on them. Every. Day.


We can help people with their own behavior. We can remind them that their behavior will affect their LB$ balance with their spouse. We can remind them that improved LB$ balances will make their spouses more receptive to their complaints and requests.

We cannot give someone with no desire to work the program on themselves the desire to do so.

We cannot stop somebody from making the decision to blame their spouse for ALL of their marital problems.

We cannot stop somebody from using excuses and justifications to not keep their side of the street clean.


We can call them on their bull, but we cannot MAKE them see, or MAKE them listen.


Some posters run away because they are incapable of taking responsibility.

Some posters will be given up on, little by little, until they stop showing up because no one will help the to do NOTHING for themselves.


And some posters... some posters will take responsibility for their own choices, their own actions, their own reactions... and those posters will go on to have great marriages.


Where would you like to be, Z?

Z,
For what it's worth, the idea of training small and working up analogy is a statement about how the work is done. It is not a statement about how you're "wimpy". It applies to both partners and it doesn't necessarily mean you're not doing the "weights" that you are supposed to be doing now. Just practice your checklist for a while while refraining from Lovebusters, no matter if you get lovebusted. If you feel one about to come out, excuse yourself. If you are presented with an AO, excuse yourself. If you two could just get 30 minutes of time together that is enjoyable for both, then you'll have something upon which to build and increase, until you are able to enjoy 15-20 hours together. The hard part is getting the first bit done! The hardest part is to get yourself off the couch in the first place. The hardest part is deciding that you do indeed want to run the marathon enough that you're willing to train for it.

No need to stay away. I don't like your DJs - if you post respectfully, I'd appreciate your thoughts. If not, then please don't post on my thread.

**edit**

**EDIT***

moderator's note: if you have an issue with another poster please notify us and let us do the moderating. Thank you.

Thanks LL. I've noticed that when we do get small increments of pleasant time together, it makes a big difference in my feelings. I'll remember that and try to use it with my H.

For the record, my H started this program with a distaste for the POJA (he calls it "flawed"), tons of LBs, including AOs that became physically violent. He is now in AM.

H's only complaint about our marriage was that I "complain too much, my expectations are unreasonable," otherwise he was happy. Mine was his abuse, other LBs, and not meeting my ENs, with a LB$ deeply in the red.

I am not convinced that Steve was referring to me in his "more harm than good" comments.

Credit where credit is due: my H has been 'working it' the past 2 days, and I am grateful for this. I'm keeping Penni's advice in the back of my mind and trying to see the big picture. And, my H has been warming up to the POJA bit by bit. That's encouraging.

Hi Z, hon, it's not your problem if folks posts in ways against TOS, that's what the notify button is for. That will keep your thread focused on your marriage.

What I like about MB is that it's a plan of action, and the feelings follow. I was free to give up my expectation that I was supposed to feel a certain way. Steve toldy then-H that how he feels about me is a result of my actions and likewise how I felt about him was a result of his actions. You know you're doing what's on your action plan, things you are enthusiastic about, things that make you feel better about yourself, your H, your M, your family. The rest will follow. I was *so* hard on myself for so long, doing the "If only I tried harder" guilt trip on myself every day. What a relief to trade that in for Plan A, they call it the Reality Bringer, and it totally did that for me and my family.

I'm sorry to disagree, but I think that both LL above and Steve Harley are interpreting and watering down Dr Harley's programme.

I am coaching with Dr Harley on the online course, and it is simply not allowed for a couple to water down the 15 hours UA requirement.

You are required to practice the 15 hours from the moment you sign up to the course, before you even finish watching the videos and filling in the EN questionnaire. You must account for your 15 hours every week, in writing. If your marriage is in crisis then you are urged to complete more than 15 hours.

Zhamila, I think you should write to Dr Harley at the radio show about this. Through my coaching with him, I am aware of how strongly he insists on at least 15 hours' UA time from the very start. He does not like cutting corners on his programme, and saying that this is something you can build up to - especially going as low as "30 minutes of time together that is enjoyable for both" - is cutting the programme to shreds.

It seems to me that the thing about the 15 hours of UA time isn't that it's just 15 hours. They have to be spent meeting each others' needs. If most of the time is spent engaging in lovebusters, and it seems that the ones involved can't get that under control, the 15 hours will turn out to be the WORST times of one's week. That would result in trying to avoid any time together. I think, though, if one keeps the goal of increasing UA time to 15 hours to 20 hours in mind, they will quickly build to 15 hours a week of actually meeting each others' needs. It's not about just 30 minutes, it's about practicing spending good time together to reinforce the motivation to do more.

Z, if you want to increase the UA, which I totally understand, some suggestions:

Find a time of the day as stress free as possible. Maybe an early morning cup of tea before the kids wake up, meet for lunch halfway between your jobs while your kids are in school, or going out for a cup of coffee or a nice walk after supper while your kids play at a neighbors. Think of things folks do when first dating someone new, where you have some privacy to talk but still have the safety of others not far. My ex wouldn't LB me the same way when others were watching.

LL, of course the whole point about the 15 hours is that they should be spent meeting the 4 intimate emotional needs. I was taking that as understood when I made my post; perhaps I should not have.

If your point is that this couple is possibly spending much of the 5 hours LBing each other, then you should be suggesting that they plan 15 hours in such a way that LBs are ruled out. It should not be that they plan a much smaller amount and work up to 15 hours.

Our advice should NEVER be to cut corners with this programme. You are doing the online seminar, and so you really must know that Dr Harley is insistent on 15 hours being planned in advance, and that he does not cut corners with any part of this programme.

Zhamila, if you plan to be out of the house on four, 3-4-hourly dates, you will find that arguing and LB and general unpleasantness disappears during that time, and that the good feelings spill over into the rest of the week.

My dates look something like this, every week:

Sundays: a 4-hour walk in the countryside. (England is so beautiful!)

A weekday: lunch when my son is at school and I am working from home.

An evening: a trip to the pub (very little alcohol, lots of talking).

Saturday afternoons: a trip into central London to see an old film, plus a walk around the west end, plus a drink at a pub. (Deduct the time spent watching the film.)

SF is unscheduled and is extra, and we get a lot more of it by doing the scheduled activities. UA time lifts the mood of the marriage beyond description.

Dr Harley also allow us to add the time spent working on the online questionnaires, listening to the CDs etc - about another 1-2 hours - but I use this as an extra. I do not count it in our schedule in advance. I find it best to plan the full 15 hours to be out of the house and then if one of the dates falls through, SF and lesson time will probably make up the difference.

UA time is not to be used to talk about marital problems or problems with the kids or ANY problems. If you plan to make it the most enjoyable time of your week then it will be the most enjoyable time of your week. If you do not plan, then UA time will not do the job it is supposed to do. But whatever you do, do not cut corners.

What criteria is Steve using to decide when you are ready for the POUA? Are there Love Busters that need to be eliminated first?

I have, actually, but it's pretty rare.

NEVER heard one out of Steve Harley. He's one of the most respectful people I know, and I heard Dr. Harley once say Steve was "respectful almost to a fault."

I don't have time to read this whole thread again, but I did just re-read the first 100 or so posts. Having done so, I do strongly suggest that you schedule UA activities that 1. have some activity at the core, such as going to see a film, football game, exhibition or play and 2. schedule 4 sessions a weeks. Remember that you must deduct any time spent watching the film, so some dates will end up being longer than 4 hours. Scheduling four sessions a week will mean that more of your days are spent doing nice thing than doing humdrum things. You need to rebalance your week in favour of pleasant things.

The reason I am suggesting this is because I can see that you have problems with conversation. I read about how you try to express your feelings to your H and he whips out his phone, or loses interest. My suggestion is that you forget about using UA time to talk about things that are meaningful to you, like your father's death, and stay off subjects that can become obsessive for him, like his work.

That might not leave a lot to talk about at first, so that is why I suggest building an activity into your dates. The activity you have just participated in gives you something to discuss to start the ball rolling.

We have no trouble going to the pub, sitting down and starting a conversation, but there is a certain artificiality about doing this time after time - and adding having to do this at lunch, too. I have found (without trying) that seeing a film gives us plenty to chat about for the first 30 minutes, which then leads to many more topics coming up. Conversation and laughter is no problem on dates, and SF is usually on the cards for later.

Of course, doing the same activity week after week will become stale too, and that is where living in London comes in so handy for us. There are art exhibitions, talks with playwrights, old films and new plays opening absolutely everywhere, and if we are forced to find something to do we end up making the best use of our fabulous city. We can do so much for free, including walking around the old Roman City of London and visiting historic buildings.

Go out and do stuff, and lay off the heavy conversation, and things will improve within two weeks, I promise.

How old are the kids and step-kids, Zhamila?

Zhamila, I think SugarCane is giving you excellent advice. The POUA really is the heart of Dr. Harley's program. Follow that, and most of your problems typically begin to get better.

I gotcha and I agree.
Thanks,
LL

Z,

Hmmmm, well in my M, the UA time has made all the difference. In fact, I have noticed my own feelings going down if we miss our time for any reason. One week H was sick, and we were not able to get our time in, and I noticed a change in my attitude.

I don't think this program can work without the UA time. As another poster pointed out to me, my H and I would have never fell in love to begin with without the UA time, and we would have never been married, SO TRUE!

You and Mr. Z havent been married long, so obviously you were in love with each other not so long ago. When did that start to change? I bet it was connected to UA time going down.

You, and any one else who has begun to successfully implement this program, sister.


Z,


Cut the crap. And, yes... posters will "DJ" you, because YOU define what that is. We aren't here to build up our balances, that is correct. We are here to call you on YOUR bullcrap in YOUR marriage, and help you to build a larger LB$ account with YOUR spouse, and help you to make the changes so that your spouse can build his account with you.


Caution; "DJ" ahead, ready your finger on the notify button;


Your up and down drama queen act is quite exhausting, and your use of the phone coaching as a shield when you are told something you don't like is deplorable.

"But, but, but.... STEVE SAID!"


You've been all but directly called out on your latest assertion, I'll call you out completely; no way in Sam Hain did a Marriage Builders coach tell you that you are the one-ever exception to the minimum requirement of 15 hours a week of UA time. This program DOES NOT WORK WITHOUT UA TIME. COUPLES WHO WILL NOT COMMIT TO UA TIME ARE NOT ACCEPTED FOR COACHING, BECAUSE THE PROGRAM WILL NOT WORK.



UA time is also the fastest and most efficient way for each of you to fill each other's LB$ to the Romantic Love threshold.

Kind of like charging your cell phone. Little bits here and there will keep it from going out completely, but it requires x hours/x days of charging to have a charge that will last.




Z, honest question; are you on the forums for help with marriage builders, or are you here to be a diva and cherry pick your advice?

This is what I've noticed also.

Thanks, NED. I didn't know you could notify anyone about this stuff. That's nice.

What's TOS?



I love your perspective on this, NED. I do notice a big difference when I am "busy" doing my thing - I feel better when I am actively working on it. I'll try to remember this and do it.

I try to ignore the feelings...sometimes they get the better of me and I get depressed and tired. Will try to stay active.

It started with increasing IBs on H's part, and an unwillingness to follow POJA. I tried to keep holding it together by scheduling our UA time every week, but started to feel like I was begging for his time and attention. So I stopped asking and kept track for a while out of curiosity. You are correct: the UA time went down and down, and my feelings did too.

You hit the nail on the head, LL....hey, do you have a VAR in our house?

I like your suggestions, NED. Being out and about does change the way we interact.

SugarCane, thanks for the suggestion to do activities that give us something to talk about - kind of a 'warm up.'

I'll try it.

He wasn't specific, he just said we weren't ready and needed a solid grounding in the basics, that it could do "more harm than good." Sorry, that's all I remember.

So now I'm dying to talk to Steve again and see what he says! There's been quite a ruckus here regarding POUA!!

The kiddos live with us full-time, and spend alternating weekends with their other parents:

DSD: 17
DS: 14
DD: 10
DS: 7

Terms of Service Terms of Service Marriage Builders Board Rules

So when they are all with you, there should be no problem abandoning the whole lot of them for an evening out. The older ones can look after the younger ones, can't they?

What about lunchtimes? How are you fixed for lunch with your H while the kids are at school?

My earlier point was that Zhamila can't make this time together pleasant on her end (just look at the post about their dinner out where her husband 'kept up all night' responding to her complaints positively) and knowing Steve, he would have never said that to her, that they were not ready for UA, unless he felt it was something for her to work on. The man does not mince words or talk to you about your spouse's fault--he talks to you about what you need to work on. "You need the basics" means YOU. Otherwise he would have said that she was not safe to spend time with him yet, until AM was completed.

He didn't.

**edit**

Zhamila, I regret weighing in on your thread contradicting what you were told by Steve Harley about UA time. I should not have challenged what Steve was telling you and suggested that he was watering down his father's programme.

I said what I said because, during my own coaching, Dr Harley is strict about the 15 hours. However, you are coaching with Steve who knows about your specific situation and has advised you accordingly. It might be a good idea for you to clarify his reasons when you next speak to him, in order to understand what he is trying to get you to do.

My ideas might be of use once Steve tells you that you can increase your time together.

HHH, I do not appreciate the manner in which you are attempting to help me. I find these phrases hurtful and disrespectful:


Please stop. I would also appreciate your removing this personal attack.

Thank you.

CWMI, I do not appreciate the manner in which you are attempting to help me. I find your personal attacks hurtful and inaccurate:


This has never happened, where do you get this idea? Also, I "can't" make time together pleasant? I do not appreciate this disrespectful remark.




Were you there? How do you know this?

As I've asked you before: please stop the disrespectful comments.

Hi SugarCane,

I appreciate your advice, and it encourages me to ask Steve about it when we meet next.

I am asking him in our next session, so thanks!

Is this the "up all night" post?

Yes, that's it.

Zhamila,

Would it be possible for you to tape your phone sessions with Steve?

Or could you make a list of questions you have for him PRIOR to the session and take notes on his answers?

That might help you to remember exactly what you asked and he replied.

I know it was always hard for me to recall the exact wording and sometimes it may make a big difference.

Zhamila, I have never personally attacked you and have spoken to the moderators about why my post was removed and labeled as such. I am satisfied about the answer.

I cannot imagine a date night more unpleasant than one which involves repeated complaints (okay, maybe rape or inviting an AP along or someone ending up murdered, but you understand what I mean, right?). UA time should be pleasant. Your dinner out sounded pleasant enough for you. I question the enjoyability factor for your H. And I love complaining, too! You should read my thread from when we were in coaching...I think it was "One more time with feeling" but I am not sure. I get all funky when I read my earliest threads because I get indignant: oh, he did that, I forgot! *stews* What a jerk! *plots*

Then I remember it was years ago and isn't something going on now. But most of all, I remember that there were a few people who didn't believe me when I reported about our sessions with Steve. So I believe you, that he said you weren't ready for the 15 hours, and my intent is and always has been to help you to not blow it off as intended toward your husband. Your H was, imho, a very intentional man on that dinner date, focused on your marriage success, while you appear, imho, as someone who thought a date meant a free-for-all on complaints toward a complicit husband.

That's going to get you nowhere, quickly.

And in no way do I think everything is your fault. I just want to help you point the gun away from your own foot, kwim?

OK, well "he kept doing that all night" doesn't mean I complained all night. He literally started using this phrase on everything I said: news story, something from work, everything. It became a funny joke, I did it to him too, & we laughed a lot.

I do bring a list of questions and take notes on his responses. I also write down his exact phrases.

But I think recording is a good idea. I'll try to figure out how to do that.

Perhaps next time you could ask clarifying questions rather than jumping to conclusions? I never said I complained all night. I said "he kept doing that all night," NOT "so I kept complaining all night." Big difference.

He said it in response to everything I said. It became a funny joke between us, I started using the phrase too, and we laughed a lot.

Feel free to ask, and I'll always clarify.

So you do have his exact phrasing written down about UA? <<clarifying question, per your orders, ma'am.

Good question! I dug through my notes on that one, and all I wrote down was what I told you before, about the fitness, not being ready, etc. It wasn't one of my "robustest" note sessions, unfortunately - it was our very first session with Steve, and I was writing furiously and had tons of questions to ask him. Since then, I take way better notes and our sessions aren't 2 hours as often, so it's easier to keep up.

That's why I think NerlyCrzy's recording idea is a good one. I think it would be a good idea to be able to listen again anyway. I "feel" like a sponge, but I know I miss things because emotions sometimes run high during our counseling - either "happy" high or "curious" high, sometimes, "distressed" etc. Plus I get distracted by my H's reactions/facial expressions while Steve talks - so notes are good, but recording would be better.

Tomorrow is the day! After 1 1/2 weeks, we have our next session with Steve. Lots has happened: some good stuff, some stuff we could use guidance on. I always look forward to our counseling time....it's very helpful for keeping me moving forward.

We had some together chatting with Steve, usually at the beginning of the session and at the end, unless we ran long and Steve didn't have a pressing issue for both of to hear instructions on. Are you speaking to him alone? Like really alone? H and I would swap times on the phone, while the other went out of earshot, most certianly out of sight. Facial expressions should not be seen...do you have two phones? We usually went to other corners of the house while we were both on the phone with him (landline) and didn't see each other.

I imagine if you're on a single cell, you could put it on speaker and sit on opposite sides, facing away, to get rid of that distraction.

Marriage building isn't pretty! Stay out of your H's time w/Steve, and tell him to stay out of yours. Even during the time together, look at the wall or the floor rather than being distracted by your H. You can look at him later.

We are usually together, except at the end he gives us instructions separately. During the session we're together unless something's really wrong and he has to "separate us," (at least this is the impression I get, maybe I'm wrong).

I don't know...I kind of think we should note each others' emotional reactions to what we're hearing during the sessions. It's helpful for understanding my H. Hmmm. I'm gonna have to think about that one.

Ask Steve. We usualy talked to him together at the start, and then he would ask to speak to one of us, then the other. If watching your H's reactions is distracting you from the advice, I suggest you not watch and just listen.

Just try it.

I am surprised that Steve doesn't want you to spend time together, but coaches you together. Seems odd.

I found it helpful to judge my H's emotional reactions when I watched him. I found it better for my marriage to watch his actions toward me than to judge his emotions. Like when we were out the other day and came on wake and he took it down to ~10mph for enough time for the wake to pass before getting on plane again--I didn't have to see love stars in his eyes or hear a total change of heart about how he feels about driving fast in the boat to feel cared for. I didn't even need to take control (oh, I offered!), I only needed to hear that he enjoyed driving and he would accomodate me and see that he did.

If I judged his emotional reactions, I could tell he wanted to jump that wake. But he wanted me more, by putting that boundary around him: I will not jump wakes. I will not jump wakes. Lol.

So we asked Steve why he didn't push UA time with us. His answer was pretty clear: until my H gets his anger problem under control, Steve didn't feel safe telling us to be together that much time every week..."bad things could happen."

But he gave us the assignment this week, so I guess he thinks it's safer.

This is in alignment with what Dr. Harley says and what a lot of posters were concerned with when you told the forum about his anger.

Glad you're back on track.

Glad things are progressing Zhamila!

Some good days, some difficult days. Still meeting with Steve, still slowly taking it day by day.

Z,

How are things going with the UA time? How much time has Steve suggested per week?

I am glad you guys are still meeting with Steve. Good for you Z, and Mr. Z! I guess our marriage's didn't get where they are over night and won't be magically fixed overnight either.

It is a lot of work, and some setbacks, but thank goodness for the improvements and good days!

I would love a detailed update when you get the chance! I am rooting for you guys!

Zhamila, did you read Prisca's thread on angry husbands? I thought that somehow my ex and I were special and we'd be able to make it even though it took me forever to get serious about no longer tolerating his AOs and over love busters. But the love busters depleted my willingness to work with him until I filed for divorce. You have what it takes to be strong and consistent and defend your marriage

One thing I did was to focus on UA and FC time primarily as a way to make some good memories for us and the kids in case things changed and we were going to reconcile later. We didn't reconcile but I'm glad I put the work in to make it easy for us to make those memories together. Are there any things that you would regret later not having done as a family that you would want to make happen now?

Thanks for the reference, NED. Where can I find Prisca's thread? Also, I'm not sure I know what FC time is? (sorry, I feel stupid today)

I'm sorry your marriage didn't work out. Would you mind telling me more about that, or referring me to your thread? I'd love to understand what happened & see if I can learn from it.

I can empathize with your saying that AOs & LBs depleted your willingness to work with him. Even though we have a few good moments/days, when the cycle changes and it's difficult again, I find that it gets harder and harder to pick back up.

I like your advice about making good memories. We don't share children, so I feel ok there.

Hi TisMe! Thank you for the encouragement.

Sorry I haven't been a diligent poster...It's been kinda rough lately. My H reads the thread, so I haven't been providing great updates lately. It seems to make things harder sometimes.

I will see how the tide turns and start posting again if I can.

Z,

Maybe it could be a good thing he is reading?

Do you think he would be willing to start his on thread?

I think my H may be reading mine as well.

Here.
What To Do With An Angry Husband

Also FC=Family Commitment, it's one of the EN.
Family Commitment

Thank you BrainHurts!!

Again, thanks Brain!!

My H says he'll never post here. I asked him quite a while ago, he's not interested.

Zhamila, I read through your posts to me again, and I want to thank you for your encouragment.

I kept telling myself, "no, that is not me. My DH loves me and he isn't doing what she says he is doing."

Denial anyone?

Thanks for being strong, and I pray your days are getting better.

In a nutshell, my XH was a heavy drinker and worked out of town a lot, and I became depressed. After the divorce, the depression lifted, and we co-parent successfully now. I know did what I could to save the marriage, and hope our kids can take away that we don't give up on family easily, there are things you can do to try to make a family healthy, but marriage is not unconditional.


This is a good thing, that you have the hope to recognize that when marriage is this level of difficult, it's not natural to just pick up where you left off. It means you need more protection. You've read the articles, are you at the point where it is safest for you and your family to separate for a year?


That's great. I want you to be able to look back on this period of your life, however it turns out, and know that you have learned what you were meant to from it. Equipped with healthy tools for whatever comes next.

Thanks for YOUR encouragement, Anointed!

We're struggling still. I'm unsure what will happen.

Thank you for writing, NED. I learn so much from you, and you're always truthful and kind!


I honestly am not sure...my H has read the MB stuff and he says that any separation I try will be "the END" for him.

We've had several good days - my H has been very considerate and caring - I'm turning 40 and we've been celebrating with friends and family all week. If this 'good cycle' sticks around, I would have hope. If not, I'm not sure how many more of these cycles I can go through.



I want to have 'no regrets.' I do struggle with being near the edge of a 2nd failed marriage. It scares me that I'm broken or something, a total failure.

Wow, that is hard, none of us really knows how we will react, we take our best guess. He may be right. I understand wanting to maintain some privacy, so I am trying not to get really specific, but you know a certain level of AOs, and Dr. H recommends a one year separation to give yourselves the best shot at marriage recover. And I think you know in your heart where that line is, and what side of the line your family is on. IIRC though there is a poster stay together who didn't separate and they are recovering well. So it's not like you have no options.

I don't know why we let those tapes in our mind say we are broken or a failure. After my divorce many women at church and work told me they had been divorced too, women who live joyful lives and who I respect deeply. I wasn't the only one or something. The widows I knew, they had gone on to marry someone they could make a good life with, they didn't end up alone, and that gave me hope. If you stay, I hope you stay because you believe in your H and your marriage recovery, not out of fear of his response if you separated and not out of fear of becoming broken. I hope that makes sense. (((Hugs)))

You are not broken, Zhamila. You are doing your part. I don't remember if you are a Christian, but something God has shown me over the last few months is that it doesn't matter what ANYONE says about me (including myself). The TRUTH is what God says about me.

God says I am His child, blessed, and my children are blessed because of me. My enemies will not defeat me (in fact they will celebrate me), and my paths are laid straight.

I believe what God says about me no matter what this physical world tries to say.

You are so precious, Zhamila, and far from broken.

It could be your picker and not that you're broken. KWIM?

Have you read Buyers. Renters and Freeloaders? Dr. Harley recommends it for dating couples for a reason.

Thank you NED. This means so much to me, and I'll try to let it sink in deeply.

Thank you so much Anointed! I am a Christian - though I don't always act like one.

This is such good advice: God is watching me and my marriage, and His opinion is the only one that really matters. I can choose to please Him with my words and deeds. I will try again - for Him.

Thanks Brain! I will check it out from the library - it's practically the only Harley book I don't own. Maybe I should buy it this time.

Funny...I seem to remember saying this to you, Anointed!

I don't feel like I've done my part in the last week - I've stepped away, sort of stopped trying and shut down. I need to get back in there and try again.

Sad but true: I called some church friends in desperation, to see if the husband would talk to my H and maybe help him see things differently. He did, but he told my H that 'marriage requires sacrifice, that's what love is,' etc etc. Whoa, not really helping support the POJA there. Plus this guy travels overnight tons for work and they are 'fine' with it. Ugh. Big mistake on my part.

My H told me today that I'd "follow Dr. Harley off a cliff."

But he was also pretty nice this evening. I'm confused.

BrainHurts, just ordered BR&Fs from the website. Can't wait to read it again...it's been years. Thanks for the recommendation.

You're welcome. I hope you like it.

Here's a taste that Pepperband put together until your book arrives.
Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders

THANK YOU!!! Reading now...

So....I just went back and read my thread. I just want to say Thank you to everyone for posting to me. There were days when I was really angry and just wanted to blame someone. Listen to this rant: blah blah blah. I'm so embarrassed I said this junk:


I'm sorry I was such a witch at times.

...AAAAAANNNNNDDD now reading BR&F thread from you BrainHurts! Sorry, got sidetracked.

These hit me particularly hard. Off to read more....

Funny how my H comes home from Anger Management and promptly loses his temper....

I'm starting to feel like a thick-headed dolt.

Zhamila, do you mind if I ask what "loses his temper" means for you and the kids? It means an Angry Outburst, correct? What's your goal here? Are you data collecting, still on the fence? Getting your ducks in a row? Being a buyer by letting him know when his behavior is unacceptable and making plans to eliminate your and your kids' exposure to the LBs?

I'm sorry Zhamila. I'm going through a process of realizing just how much I have contributed to my marital problems. I'm proud of you for being open to learning.

I'm interested in finding out the answer to NEDs questions. Blessings and hugs!!!

Hi NED - I never mind you asking

Yes, it was an AO. I did let him know it was not acceptable and left the room.

I'm trying to figure out my next steps.

Markos' thread about how "MB works better" when the H is on board is hitting me really hard. I mean we've spent tons of money, gotten Steve Harley's help and I've learned to do my part. We are no longer meeting with Steve ($), so I feel like my safety net is gone. However, if my H is going to get on board, he will do it with or without a weekly pep talk from Steve.

So I guess you could say I'm observing while being very careful and cautious. I am watching, planning, and thinking.

That's cool, things get obvious in time, the don't call Plan A the reality bringer for nothing!

I'm still hoping he'll come around. We used to have a poster here whose H made the changes without an ultimatum, and when she was struck with an illness he kept to his changes he made.

Well, I spent some time this week reading about abusive relationships. Ours is pretty classic. The recommendation was to simply set limits on what is unacceptable behavior: all is in line with MB principles, basically saying you won't accept SDs DJs or AOs.

So I started to tell my H that I would no longer accept certain behaviors (mentioned them). He interrupted and demanded that I never criticize him in front of the children. I said that the prerequisite for our parenting plan was that he not abuse the children but speak respectfully to them. If he did not abide by that prerequisite, then I would correct the abuse in front of the children because they need to learn that abuse is not acceptable, too.

So he said, "Fine, then I'll leave. Do you want me to go now, or can I wait a month?" I told him I don't care when. But I iterated that I still want great marriage with him, but one free from abuse. If he chose to leave, I wouldn't stop him, but I would rather have a succesful marriage with him.

So that's it I guess.

You know your H better than anyone, but I remember when my then-H threatened to leave, too, many times, as I "rearranged the furniture" the way you're doing. It would've been cool if I had been detached enough to act as narrator, "So it's more important to you for me to pretend in front of the kids that yelling is okay, than to show them thoughtfulness in our FC time together. Good to know. I'm here at the park with you all this afternoon to show them thoughtfulness." But I wasn't.

Does it help to remember that your H leaving is something that can set your family up for success in the future? And that it's way easier on your kids if he leaves than if you do?

They are not his kids, so her leaving is out of the question.

This is a short marriage with no kids.

NED, I've just realised that my previous reply assumed that you meant Zhamila leaving the kids behind. That's why I said that her leaving is not an option - she wouldn't leave her kids with someone who is not their father. I realise now that you might not have meant leaving the kids behind.

She could leave with her kids, but as you rightly said, it would be easier on them if he left.

Zhamila, is he still talking about leaving, or have things calmed down a bit?

Thanks to you both, NED and SugarCane. He would leave no matter what: I bought the house before I met him, it's in my name only. He's fine with that.

We have not spoken since that conversation yesterday. We have avoided each other all night and day. I do not think he will change his mind, and I'm actually quite relieved.

I wish he had stopped the abuse and joined me in creating a great marriage. But at this point I am sooooo glad to be near the end of fear, pain, and sadness - I feel lighter and more serene. And I am looking forward to spending my time enjoying my childrens' company in an emotionally safe, loving home.

Housekeeping Q:

Is there an easy way to download my posts? I'd like to be able to pull them out someday when I'm sad and remember what really happened...

You can email individual posts or whole threads to any email account. Use the Email Post button at the bottom of one of the posts you want, to see the options.

Thank you!!

Well, the silence is broken. He wants to 'try again.' I'm not sure I want to get on the ferris wheel again.

I gave him the Agreement to Eliminate Abuse tonight (from a Patricia Evans book on verbally abusive men). The more I understand verbal (and other) abuse - from Dr. Harley and other MB-consistent sources - the more I realize how damaging this marriage has been.

I told him that Abuse/Anger is our #1 problem. It prevents the solving of every other problem.

I am so done. I wonder whether I should keep moving away or give him another chance. I mean, I've already started looking forward to a pain-free (ok, marriage-pain-free!) life! How can I consider going back into the dark?

This sucks.

Advice? Anyone regret not trying harder? Anyone regret having hung on too long?

Me. Looking back I know the exact moment I should have bailed. I stuck it out for 7 more years. Hindsight is 20-20 and all that though. I stayed married for 26 years so I know how it feels to want it to work.

No regrets. There are no bad decisions here. LIke that thoughtful request, you can decide to "try again" for 2 weeks, and then see how you feel. Then all you've lost is 2 weeks of your life. But if that rings as not a good plan for you, you have your answer already. Have him to go anyway, and then if he does the work to become safe again, it'll become obvious, and you will fall back in love with him. As the article says, you are in much more chance of letting him back too soon than not soon enough.

If he gets it, he'll understand why you want to try again from 2 houses. When to Call It Quits 1 I think outlines how to try again from 2 houses, and When to Call it Quits 2 outlines how to try again from one house.

Thank you SmilingWoman! I've only been married for 3 1/2 years, so I admire your perseverance!

If you have a thread here, I'll go try to find it and read & learn.

NED, I love that you reminded me that there are no regrets either way. Thank you.

I guess you are right, giving it a few more days is not the end of the world. I was just so relieved to be moving on and I feel sick inside that I might have to do this longer. Maybe til Monday?

I did tell him last night that I'd like to separate and work on this from afar. He told me if we separate "it's all over" in his mind. However, I really need a break - I need peace, safety and freedom from fear. I wouldn't mind working on our marriage, but I think I'm petered out emotionally living with him every day.

He said a funny thing last night, "We are both better off married to each other." Really? Funny how he didn't ask me if I am better off married to him. He just assumes that I am.

I feel invisible.

Still thinking.........................

Wow Z, sorry for what you are dealing with now.

I would think him saying he wants to give things a try would be a good sign ? Maybe you guys should agree to really focus on the UA time for a few weeks, the full MB UA time, and see what happens.

Second marriages have high failure rate, but the odds for a third are even worse. I would want to know I tried everything possible before walking away.

Is he still going to AM classes? I know this couple, and the man had major issues with his anger, we could actually hear AO's from inside of our house with windows closed! He went to AM classes, at first I still heard AO's, but after a while they stopped and I have never heard one since.

It took a bit but he seems to have really learned to control his temper. Maybe for some it doesn't "click" and fall into place as fast as others ?