Marriage Builders
Hi all, I'm new here....

We've been married 10 months, together for 2.5 yrs, and have known each other for 8 yrs. No kids.

Our relationship has been unraveling since we moved in together, pretty much... it's all been very confusing.

Basically he says I've changed. Any and all mistakes on his part are "justified" because he was reacting to my supposed changes. We're currently in couple's therapy, but I don't think the therapist is any good. Is through a university, and is very low cost... they're graduate students, working on their PhD's over there, but honestly I don't think that lady has half an idea what she's doing. We just go there to complain about each other in front of her, and leave the office seething.

I guess my question is this... how do you fix things if one spouse is convinced the other is the one with the problem? Is there anything that can be done in that situation? Plan A, Plan B approach? And if so, how do you even accomplish that if both spouses are in withdrawal???

Thanks a bunch

SD
Posted By: CWMI Re: H blames me solely for the state we're in - 10/08/12 12:21 PM
Welcome to MB.

The counselor sounds like she is just a divorce facilitator, so I'd just drop her. Most of them are awful.There are a lot of stories around about terrible advice from such 'counselors'.

If you can swing it, for ~$1k you can do the online program here with a coach and access to Dr. Harley.

Is this a first marriage for each of you? The first couple of years of nearly every marriage are a little rough, so don't feel like it necessarily means it's doomed. There is an adjustment period while you learn to live harmoniously together, and like your husband has noted, once you live together you notice things you were blind to before.

Have you read the concepts and looked at the questionnaires?

Basic concepts: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3000_intro.html

Love Busters Questionnaire: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi4502_lbq.html

Emotional Needs: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi4501_enq.html

I wouldn't worry at this point about assigning blame. If your husband wants to say that you are the problem, well, who's to say he's wrong? smile Ask him to fill out the Q's I linked above to figure out what he needs you to start doing, and what he needs you to stop doing, and get to work on that.

You fill them out, too, and ask him if he'd like to see yours.

Well, probably best to get him to look at the concepts and ask him if he'd do the Q's with you. There's a proper way to share them, let me know if he's willing and I can help guide you through that in the way that Steve Harley had my H and I do it. Some people just thrust them on each other and that almost never turns out well.
Originally Posted by SadnDepressed
Hi all, I'm new here....

We've been married 10 months, together for 2.5 yrs, and have known each other for 8 yrs. No kids.

Our relationship has been unraveling since we moved in together, pretty much... it's all been very confusing.

Basically he says I've changed. Any and all mistakes on his part are "justified" because he was reacting to my supposed changes. We're currently in couple's therapy, but I don't think the therapist is any good. Is through a university, and is very low cost... they're graduate students, working on their PhD's over there, but honestly I don't think that lady has half an idea what she's doing. We just go there to complain about each other in front of her, and leave the office seething.

I guess my question is this... how do you fix things if one spouse is convinced the other is the one with the problem? Is there anything that can be done in that situation? Plan A, Plan B approach? And if so, how do you even accomplish that if both spouses are in withdrawal???

Thanks a bunch

SD

Your first step is to stop the bleeding.
Stop going to that college student. If you want an inexperienced therapist just go to Starbuks with your husban and complain to a stranger in there. It would be about as productive and you would at least have some good coffee.

You and your husband need to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement.
Read te articles about it on this website and commit to following it.
Then you need to learn how to negotiate and there is information for that here also
Hello and thanks for your kind replies.

No, we currently cannot afford that kind of money, hence why we ended up at the uni counselors. I would much have preferred a real couselor, believe me.

I'm not so sure if this is a period of adjustment... seems like most of the love is gone. We're doing one last effort with whatever remaining energy we have, but at this point we're both easily discouraged and put on the defensive. We cannot even hold a simple conversation without it ending up in an argument, as we're both always 'reading between the lines' even when there are none to begin with. Our sex life is dead. So much disapointment and so much resentment exists between us. He not the talking type, so in order to keep the peace I bit my lip, but that only allowed more time for our wounds to fester... he says he's been trying to save our marriage, but that I don't see or value his efforts. I feel much the same. I see that we haven't been meeting each other's needs, he just sees a supposed change in me. I feel like someone flipped a switch in his head once we married. Like he felt sure I wasn't going anywhere and stopped trying. I felt neglected, so I started complaining... that's the change he perceives! We're both with one foot out the door by now.

We're going to counseling, but he says is not his thing. He doesn't want to try anything else while we're in this semblance of therapy. I've suggested filling out the questionaires here and developing a plan to fix things, but he replies he's not going to do it my way... then he says I'm the one with the problem, that I should fix it.

I don't know how we can even do the POJA if it is just me that has to do the work. I'm so tiired of fightfing, of crying myself to sleep...everytime I come upon something that I know could be useful to us, I start to get hopeful again, but is no use if he refuses to do it with me. The pain of being alone in this relationship is unbearable, and with my past history remaining in this situatioon could spell a trip to the psyche ward in a not very distant future. O cannot do the work alone... I just don't have the strength anymore.

What are the options? Are there any? I feel like I'm between a rock and a hard place... if I don't do anything the relationship is over, but if I do, I might be commiting psychological hara kiri and still it wouldn't guarantee sucess for the relationship.


Your best option is to quit the counseling and enter Plan A.
Counseling has a very low success rate and seeig a student is not effective at all. You would seriously be better off visiting an older married couple for advice than a college kid.

Read about plan A and start it
I've read about it, but it seems like it would be even more detrimental to my mental health. How do you go about that?
Could you point me to examples of people who have done this?

Thanks...
Originally Posted by SadnDepressed
I've read about it, but it seems like it would be even more detrimental to my mental health. How do you go about that?
Could you point me to examples of people who have done this?

Thanks...


Everyone on these boards has done plan A at some point. The concept is to entice your spouse back into the relationship. You do not do it for ever, you do it for a defined length of time to get your partner to start working MB concepts with you.

Think about how you both felt when you were dating? That is what you are going to feel again if this works. Enough incentive?
How about something like this?

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi4200_radio.html
Originally Posted by living_well
Everyone on these boards has done plan A at some point. The concept is to entice your spouse back into the relationship. You do not do it for ever, you do it for a defined length of time to get your partner to start working MB concepts with you.

Think about how you both felt when you were dating? That is what you are going to feel again if this works. Enough incentive?

I'm frozen with fear.... I would love to get that being in love feeling back, but if it doesn't work I'll be in for a lot of mental health trouble. And that I can vividly remember how that feels, and I want as far away from it as possible.

Please, could you direct me to where I can read more about the Plan A approach when there's no affair involved? I can't seem to find much info on that. What do i have to do... eat up what I'm feeling, become all peppy and pretend nothing is amiss? How do people who are in the state I'm in (sad, deflated, disappointed, depressed, angry and resentful at their spouses, etc) accomplish this?

The good news is that I spoke with him and he's willing to read the material here together. We started yesterday, today I'll talk to him about the questionnaires and see how that goes.

SD
SD, the place to start is with the book Lovebusters. Get the books, Lovebusters [2 copies] and the workbook, Five Steps to Romantic Love.

Starting today, commit to never fighting with him again. Can you make that committment?

When you get the books, buy a pink highlighter and a yellow highligher. For the first week, concentrate on chapters 1-5. When you read your book, highlight passages that are important to you in pink, and he does the same with the yellow highlighter in his book. After each chapter, exchange your books and read [to yourself] the things that are most important to each other. When you are done, do the lessons in the back of each chapter and discuss it.

In the meantime, download and take the marital problem analysis. here When you are finished, exchange it but don't discuss it.

Print off these articles and read them while you are waiting for your books.

How to Create Your Own Plan to Resolve Conflicts and Restore Love to Your Marriage

Love Busters

Can you do this? And will you commit to not fighting today?
Here is the book, Lovebusters, [2 copies] you can read the first chapter online: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi6030_love.html

the workbook [1 copy]: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi6090_step.html
Update: He wants a trial separation.

I know, I know you're all gonna say he's having an affair. Believe me, I've checked. He isn't. No missing time, no weird phone numbers on the record and he doesn't even his own computer (not much of a tech guy) and the records on this computer are open for the world to see. I have the passwords to his accounts... email, fb, myspace, etc. Nothing weird going on in any of them.

So here's what happened. He agreed to read the stuff, but he won't agree to a concrete time. In fact, if it was up to him, he'd never bring it up at all! When i bring it up he says "sure, honey, I'd like us to read the material... just not now" banghead

Despite all this, we've been a week without arguing. Went on three dates, everything was pretty good. Hell, I even felt my libido springing back to life! Then this weekend he started with the DJ, I lost my cool, we got into an argument in the car where he voiced he didn't care about what i thought. At that point I stepped out of the car.

He left... later I guess he felt guilty or something and started texting saying he'd swing by to pick me up if and only if i adhered to his conditions: we do not talk about it. I was still pretty heated and we continued arguing. Later he started saying he wanted to see if maybe separated we could improve things... I didn't agree.

Back home we were both pretty down, so we had a nap. After we woke up he wanted to go out. It took me a while to get going and he got frustrated and angry and headed to the door. I asked to please talk it over (which is teh only way i know of how to resolve conflicts... i'm still not very good at the whole telepathy thing, you see?). He totally lost it, came back from the parking lot banging several doors on his way in, i stated to go into panic attack mode, which made him even angrier for some reason I still don't comprehend, kicked a lamp that was in his way... lamp fell. He proceeded to grab it by the base and begun banging it against the floor repeatedly. Pieces flying everywhere. Me cowering in a corner. Real nice....

He then decided to call the mental health place because I "was acting up"... I admit it wasn't my best night as I was flying high between my fear of abandonment issues and trying to avoid going into a full fledged panic attack, but I wasn't getting in his way, I was pleading with him to please not leave like that... angry and hating my guts. Probably not the best timing, but this is what I meant about my mental health. I wasn't really doing anything to warrant a call to the looney bin, but that's what he felt he needed to do. The talked to him and then me. She wants to evaluate me for meds (antidepressants). I don't like the idea, but fine... i'll concede to the eval.

After all that, the next morning he was nice and took me out to brunch with the pup. While out he begun talking about our relationship, and he mentioned he was 90% done. That he never wanted to get to the point he had gotten (smashing lamp bit) and he considers me a "high risk person", but was unable to elaborate what he means by that. He insists on separting and mentioned he's leaving tomorrow. Meanwhile he's as nice and as sweet as he hasn't been in god knows how long and to me this is pure torture. Why does he behave like that if he's leaving? Why not just leave?

His idea is to go back to being BF/GF. I don't think this will work. Waht will happen is that as long as we're getting along, thigs will be fine, but the moment an issue arises, he's just going to go to his own place and avoid looking for any solutions. I'm most definitely not up for that. The worse part is that he has already purchased a plane ticket to go on vacation to his country for 2 months! Which he bought without even consulting with me as to the dates... just sprung it on me. So this means he leaves now on this supposed temporary separation... then he leaves on his two month vacation... that's going to be almost 4 months by the time he comes back. History (mine, that is) dictates what will happen is that I'm just going to fall completely out of love. He's leaving, I got abandonment issues. Yeah, like hell I'm going to be waiting for him. It hasn't happened before, don't see why it would now. So basically I feel if he wants to leave, that's fine, but we're done. This relationship did not come with a revolving door policy in the terms.

Here's where I don't know what to do... do i state my point as an ultimatum? Do I just eat up what I want to scream from the rooftops and let the chips fall where they may? I still feel we could turn this thing around, but if he's lost hope, I don't know how that can be accomplished. And to top it off, he still insists this is all my fault because I "got depressed"... yeah, like I invented reasons to get depressed about. He had no hand in it...

Very frustrated. Very sad. Very uncertain about the future here. Help?

SD
It sounds to me like he is leaving because he can't stand the fighting anymore. Is that correct?
"His idea is to go back to being BF/GF. I don't think this will work. "

This seems like the best idea, and the premise of MB material. Think about what worked so well originally that you two fell in love. Start off with what works, and then you can try addressing yours and his Angry Outbursts and Disrespectful Judgements. Then tou can have more civil discussions as friends on how to read and do other MB.
Originally Posted by NYC_Runner
"His idea is to go back to being BF/GF. I don't think this will work. "

This seems like the best idea, and the premise of MB material. Think about what worked so well originally that you two fell in love. Start off with what works, and then you can try addressing yours and his Angry Outbursts and Disrespectful Judgements. Then tou can have more civil discussions as friends on how to read and do other MB.

He would just rather avoid solving the conflicts. He views them as my fault and mine to solve. I do not see how him moving out will help with that.

SD
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
It sounds to me like he is leaving because he can't stand the fighting anymore. Is that correct?

In part, the other part is that I'm a high risk persson bit.
Quote
In part, the other part is that I'm a high risk persson bit.
I saw that. That is a very curious statement. Did you ask him what, exactly, makes you a 'high risk person'? You do have a right to know that, so he should be open to informing you of what he perceives to be your 'high risk' nature.
Originally Posted by SadnDepressed
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
It sounds to me like he is leaving because he can't stand the fighting anymore. Is that correct?

In part, the other part is that I'm a high risk persson bit.

Do you want to save your marriage? If you do, my friend, you are going to have to stop fighting. When he makes a DJ, the solution is NOT to lose your cool:

Quote
Despite all this, we've been a week without arguing. Went on three dates, everything was pretty good. Hell, I even felt my libido springing back to life! Then this weekend he started with the DJ, I lost my cool, we got into an argument in the car where he voiced he didn't care about what i thought. At that point I stepped out of the car.

Fighting has all but destroyed your marriage. And it doesn't seem to stop.
There's only so much a given person can stand before losing their cool. I effed up. We both had major temper tandrums the likes of which could rival any 3 year old's. I've been Plan A'ing this to the best of my ability and I slipped on Sat. I think we lost a battle, but not the war. Yes, I do want to save this relationship, but I cannot do this on my own. He has to want it too.

Posted By: CWMI Re: H blames me solely for the state we're in - 10/15/12 11:31 PM
Originally Posted by SadnDepressed
There's only so much a given person can stand before losing their cool.

No, there's only so much a given person can stand before trying something different. You've given yourself permission to lose your cool, you see that as the only option you have left!

It is not.

Believe me, I am a reformed cool-loser. I still have the *thoughts* (I want to beat the living snot out of someone right now) but I am in control of my *actions*.
Originally Posted by maritalbliss
Quote
In part, the other part is that I'm a high risk persson bit.
I saw that. That is a very curious statement. Did you ask him what, exactly, makes you a 'high risk person'? You do have a right to know that, so he should be open to informing you of what he perceives to be your 'high risk' nature.


He wasn't able to explain it very well. I think is a mixture of two things: first, he doesn't want to do something stupid like break something else... and since it is all my fault, well that means I made him do that and he's afraid of what else I might make him do. The second thing is that I've been unofficially diagnosed as having dysthymia (sp?), and it might be possible I'm in a major depressive episode on top of that (basically a double depression). I've had to call the hotline twice in the last month as I was having a good dose of suicidal ideation. I think he views that as high risk for him bc if in the very unlikely case I kill myself, it would land him in god knows what psychologic al state
Originally Posted by SadnDepressed
There's only so much a given person can stand before losing their cool. I effed up. We both had major temper tandrums the likes of which could rival any 3 year old's. I've been Plan A'ing this to the best of my ability and I slipped on Sat. I think we lost a battle, but not the war. Yes, I do want to save this relationship, but I cannot do this on my own. He has to want it too.

Losing your cool and throwing a temper tantrum is NOT Plan A. And you are losing your marriage because of it. As long as you believe that he causes you to lose your temper, this will not get resolved. YOU are the only person who has the power to lose your temper.

You have to stop fighting if you want to save this. You don't have the luxury of losing it anymore. It is well past that point.
Originally Posted by SadnDepressed
[ I've had to call the hotline twice in the last month as I was having a good dose of suicidal ideation. I think he views that as high risk for him bc if in the very unlikely case I kill myself, it would land him in god knows what psychologic al state

I agree it would be a good idea to separate. Go to a doctor and get your depression under control while you learn how to control your temper.
Posted By: markos Re: H blames me solely for the state we're in - 10/16/12 02:08 AM
Originally Posted by SadnDepressed
There's only so much a given person can stand before losing their cool.

Dr. Harley's first step in anger management is to acknowledge that only you make yourself lose your temper. Nobody can make you get mad (lose your cool); that is something you do to yourself.

So, your statement that there's only so much a person can stand before losing their cool is incorrect, and if you continue to hold to it, then this problem cannot get better.
Anger Mgmt
Posted By: BWS71 Re: H blames me solely for the state we're in - 10/16/12 05:22 AM
SadnDepressed - I'm sorry to hear what you're experiencing. I can tell it is taking a serious toll on you and your husband.

You've been given some great advice, not sure what I'll be able to add to it beyond restating the same ideas.

Harley's proven method for creating and maintaining marriages that not only last but thrive is to help people learn to consistently do the things that make their spouses feel great and avoid doing things that make their spouses feel lousy. When both spouses become experts at both of these things, they fall in love with each other and stay in love with each other. It is wonderfully simple.

It seems you and your husband have reversed that equation - you've stopped doing the good stuff and started doing the bad stuff - a lot. Now your husband wants out. Until your husband once again sees being married to you as something desirable, something that is going to make him happy, he will not likely have any interest in returning to your marriage. He may not feel much obligation to your marriage at this point, especially after so short a time and with no children.

Addressing this situation is simple... but not easy - you need to change in ways that show your husband that being married to you is going to make him feel great and not make him feel bad. He needs to want to choose you again. Right now he's looking at other options that he thinks are more likely to make him happy, alternatives to staying married to you.

I'm not saying he doesn't also need to change to meet your needs and protect you from his love busters. But he is the one who is in the process of leaving. He isn't interested in changing right now. You can't guilt him in to staying and changing. That won't last. You have to attract him back to you - like you attracted him to you when you first met.

If you can't do this, I doubt your marriage will last. I've heard you say you just don't have the emotional resources to meet his needs and avoid lovebusting against him. Well, could you tell him this and ask for patience while you get in a better place emotionally?

Do you really feel you cannot control your behavior? Can you really not avoid lovebusting against him? Can you really not start meeting his top two emotional needs in a satisfying and consistent way? I'm not saying it is easy. But if you can't, why would he stay? If you can and do, I believe the dynamics of your relationship will change and he will be motivated to come back and work on your developing relationship.

What exactly do you think your husband wants from you? What changes does he want you to make?

BWS
Originally Posted by BWS71
It seems you and your husband have reversed that equation - you've stopped doing the good stuff and started doing the bad stuff - a lot.

Yes, that's exactly what's going on...

Originally Posted by BWS71
You have to attract him back to you - like you attracted him to you when you first met.

If you can't do this, I doubt your marriage will last. I've heard you say you just don't have the emotional resources to meet his needs and avoid lovebusting against him. Well, could you tell him this and ask for patience while you get in a better place emotionally?

When we first started dating (we met long, long before that) I was in a very good place emotionally. He says the thing that attracted him most about me then was my energy and my general outlook about life. Depression has taken all of that away. I've been in therapy for a while now as he kept blaming my past trauma for the lack of sex. So in an effort to meet his top need of SF I got myself in to work through that trauma. I told him it was going to be a process, it might get worse before it gets better, as I've found that's usually the case when you stir the pot of the past during the therapy sessions. I asked if he would be able to be there for me to offer emotional support. He said he would, but he wasn't really there for me. I asked why, he said he didn't know how. I brought materials over for him to read so he would know how. He used them as scrap paper and never read a single word past the title. After that he never tried a thing. He insists he wasn't able.

You are correct, this has taken a huge toll on both of us. For me it's this depression that keeps deepening. His neglect weighs heavily on me... it just encourages the negative self talk and it takes some serious effort and energy in order to stop that. Energy I have a very short supply of.

I've asked him to be patient. His answer is he isn't able. He isn't able to offer emotional support, to empathize, to be patient.

I've spread myself very thin trying to do it all... work on my issues, fight this depression, try to meet his needs, on top of everything else in my life which seems to be about to tumble as well, without much emotional support from my husband... I want with all my heart to save this relationship, but I'm unsure, given my personal situation, if I'm going to go anywhere with it if I tackle this by myself.


Originally Posted by BWS71
Do you really feel you cannot control your behavior? Can you really not avoid lovebusting against him? Can you really not start meeting his top two emotional needs in a satisfying and consistent way?

What I said about a person being only able to handle so much before losing their cool is being misunderstood. Perhaps I didn't exactly express myself correctly, as English is not my first language. I know no one can really make anybody else do a darn thing. I lose it bc it is the easiest reaction to implement. There are several reactions that would probably be more favorable, but take a certain degree of energy and stability I do not have a lot of these days; so an AO is the easiest reaction because it requires almost no effort. The only other reaction that comes almost naturally to me is to do nothing and shut down. I don't know if that would be more helpful to the relationship... i have a feeling you'll probably say it's preferable to an AO. It just happens to go against several years of training through therapy. I had to train myself to NOT shut down. I know there are so many other more favorable behaviors I could have in reaction to his DJ and AO, but I really just don't have what it takes to stop the panicky feelings, the rushing thoughts, the conflicting emotions, etc, AND think about my reaction before the reaction becomes an action on my part. I don't know if that even makes any sense to you guys.

As far as his two top EN... well, he hasn't done the questionnaires, but I gather SF is very high up there. I've been trying to meet that one despite all my issues. I'm not sure what his other top priorities are... what he says he wants the most is to NOT TALK. I've been trying to honor that, but I'm not very consistent about it. I've definitely gotten better at it, but is just very hard to not want to try to fix this situation, and the only way I know how is to gather info, and I can only do that verbally. Basically to me what he asks is to just swipe things under the carpet. I can do it for so long before I feel overwhelmed and have the need to talk... to try and fix what's going on.


Originally Posted by BWS71
What exactly do you think your husband wants from you? What changes does he want you to make?

BWS

He wants me to leave him be. He doesn't want to talk... and I'm not even saying argue because, really... who likes to argue anyways. Plain talking... information gathering, insightful conversation... he's put off by all of it.
That's what I have the most trouble with. When he does his ambiguous things and I get confused, I don't know how to go on without trying to understand what's going on, what the motivation is behind an action. How do I just stay confused and wondering for a month... two... three? I can barely last two weeks.

The other thing he repeatedly says he misses is my 'not depressed' self. Steps are being taken to alleviate that. Believe me, no one wants me to get over this depression more than myself, but it's just not so simple.. it takes time. They keep selling me medication as the ticket out of here. I know I have been able to overcome depression without meds before, but if this will speed things up, I'll try them. I'm not too excited about all the side effects, and the dependency they create, but I'll try anything once, i guess. I'm really concerned about the sexual side effects as it will definitely affect my ability to meet his SF need. It feels sometimes like i'll be just swapping problems around. It really frightens me.

Thanks for your kind words, BWS.
Originally Posted by SadnDepressed
[I've been in therapy for a while now as he kept blaming my past trauma for the lack of sex. So in an effort to meet his top need of SF I got myself in to work through that trauma. I told him it was going to be a process, it might get worse before it gets better, as I've found that's usually the case when you stir the pot of the past during the therapy sessions. I asked if he would be able to be there for me to offer emotional support. He said he would, but he wasn't really there for me. I asked why, he said he didn't know how. I brought materials over for him to read so he would know how. He used them as scrap paper and never read a single word past the title. After that he never tried a thing. He insists he wasn't able.

SadnDepressed, I see a few things that are leading to your depression and have some suggestions. The first is going to "therapy" to resolve problems of the past. Bringing the sadness of the past into the present is a sure fire way to cause depression. It is a waste of your time that will resolve nothing but cause great harm to your present life. This, along with a bad marriage are causing your depression. I would quit therapy and get on anti-depressants.

Quote
I've been in therapy for a while now as he kept blaming my past trauma for the lack of sex. So in an effort to meet his top need of SF I got myself in to work through that trauma. I told him it was going to be a process, it might get worse before it gets better, as I've found that's usually the case when you stir the pot of the past during the therapy sessions.

Your husband should not be placed in a position to have to "wait" for his marriage while you go waste time in "therapy." That is not fair. He got married so he could be happy in a good marriage. NOW. Asking your husband to "wait" while you work through some old trauma is unreasonable and unfair to him. You are not working through anything, but rather causing trauma in your present life. As you can see, it is wrecking your marriage.

Quote
He wants me to leave him be. He doesn't want to talk... and I'm not even saying argue because, really... who likes to argue anyways. Plain talking... information gathering, insightful conversation... he's put off by all of it.

I would focus on conversation that he finds PLEASANT. He finds any interaction with you to be unpleasant so I focus on being as pleasant as possible. Start by quitting the therapy, getting on anti-deps and being as pleasant as possible.

If you can swing the cost, you might want to try counseling with the Harleys. They might be able to give you a plan and persuade your husband to give you another try. It is pricey [$225?] but it shouldn't take too many sessions and it would be good for your marriage instead of harmful.
Do you have a sexual aversion? What is up with that?
Posted By: markos Re: H blames me solely for the state we're in - 10/16/12 02:55 PM
Originally Posted by SadnDepressed
What I said about a person being only able to handle so much before losing their cool is being misunderstood.

No, I understand it completely correctly. It is the same kind of thing I used to tell myself.

Telling yourself this is causing problems. You can't fix your problem with "losing it" until you quit clinging to this justification.

Don't take my word for it: listen to the many wonderful recordings of Dr. Harley talking about angry outbursts. He is the expert, not me. I'm just repeating to you the things that I have learned from the man who actually knows how to fix these problems.
Posted By: markos Re: H blames me solely for the state we're in - 10/16/12 02:58 PM
Originally Posted by SadnDepressed
What I said about a person being only able to handle so much before losing their cool is being misunderstood. Perhaps I didn't exactly express myself correctly, as English is not my first language. I know no one can really make anybody else do a darn thing. I lose it bc it is the easiest reaction to implement. There are several reactions that would probably be more favorable, but take a certain degree of energy and stability I do not have a lot of these days; so an AO is the easiest reaction because it requires almost no effort. The only other reaction that comes almost naturally to me is to do nothing and shut down. I don't know if that would be more helpful to the relationship... i have a feeling you'll probably say it's preferable to an AO. It just happens to go against several years of training through therapy. I had to train myself to NOT shut down. I know there are so many other more favorable behaviors I could have in reaction to his DJ and AO, but I really just don't have what it takes to stop the panicky feelings, the rushing thoughts, the conflicting emotions, etc, AND think about my reaction before the reaction becomes an action on my part. I don't know if that even makes any sense to you guys.

It makes perfect sense. I understand it completely. You are in the right place to get help for this, and I suggest you start taking the advice you are given rather than trying to defend yourself or explain you are misunderstood or whatever else. This is a crisis and you need to do something.

Click BrainHurt's link and start reading and listening.
Originally Posted by Dr Harley
As a clinical psychologist who has been in direct therapy with 50,000 individuals and supervised over 600 counselors, I have not found that resolving issues of the past does much to help people deal with issues of the present. In most cases I've witnessed, it makes matters worse because it drags the most unpleasant experiences of the past into the present. I know that my perspective is in conflict with many therapists who are trained to treat the past before they can treat the present, but I have yet to see any convincing evidence that this approach is more effective than letting the past stay in the past. My personal experience is that dredging up the past actually increases the risk of suicide and other dangerous symptoms of mental disorders. Another important reason that I am opposed to bringing up issues of the past is that it wastes time. When you could be forming an effective plan and putting the plan into motion to resolve an issue of the present, you spend months, and even years focused on the past while the problems of the present keep building up, eventually burying the client.

In your situation, I strongly recommend that you not waste your time talking about the past. And don't try analyzing your husband. I know that his affair was a terrible shock to your system, and you want to feel closure. You have been terribly disillusioned by what he did, but the best you can do under the circumstances is look to the future instead of the past. Don't discuss the past with your husband or anyone else for a while, and see if you don't agree with me that it helps improve your relationship and it also causes you to be more relaxed. Focusing on the past causes depression, while focusing on the future with an eye to making it successful causes optimism and gives you energy.
here

Originally Posted by Dr Harley
"Some counselors think it's a good idea to "resolve issues of the past" by talking about them week after week, month after month, year after year. It keeps these counselors in business, but does nothing to resolve the issue. In fact, it usually makes their poor clients chronically depressed.

My experience as a Clinical Psychologist has proven to me that dredging up unpleasant experiences of the past merely brings the unhappiness of the past into the present. The problems of the present are difficult enough to solve without spending time and energy trying to resolve issues of the past, which are essentially unresolvable. You can make your future happy, but you can't do a thing about bad experiences of the past, except think and talk about them -- and that makes the bad experiences of the past, bad experiences of the present." Dr. Willard Harley

here

Originally Posted by Dr Harley
One of the reasons I'm not so keen on dredging up the past as a part of therapy is that it brings up memories that carry resentment along with them. If I'm not careful, a single counseling session can open up such a can of worms that the presenting problem gets lost in a flood of new and painful memories.[b] If the goal of therapy is to "resolve" every past issue, that seems to me to be a good way to keep people coming for therapy for the rest of their lives. That's because it's an insurmountable goal. We simply cannot resolve everything that's ever bothered us.

Instead, I tend to focus my attention on the present and the future, because they are what we can all do something about. The past is over and done with. Why waste our effort on the past when the future is upon us. Granted, it's useful to learn lessons from the past, but if we dwell on the past, we take our eyes off the future which can lead to disaster.

I personally believe that therapy should focus most attention, not on the past, but on ways to make the future sensational.
here





Posted By: alis Re: H blames me solely for the state we're in - 10/16/12 03:27 PM
I notice you have only been married 10 months. Was this a recurring theme when dating?

I think others have really addressed the depression issue well - one thing I would recommend, as someone who also suffered from depression (mine was postnatal), was that exercising together with my husband really helped. Exercise helps depression - but doing it together (jogging outside, or spotting each other on the weights) also made for some fantastic UA time too. With the exercise, it helped me avoid any AOs. AOs are a huge problem when you have a short fuse with depression. We don't get permission to abuse our spouses as a result of the illness.
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
SadnDepressed, I see a few things that are leading to your depression and have some suggestions. The first is going to "therapy" to resolve problems of the past. Bringing the sadness of the past into the present is a sure fire way to cause depression. It is a waste of your time that will resolve nothing but cause great harm to your present life. This, along with a bad marriage are causing your depression. I would quit therapy and get on anti-depressants.


Therapy doesn't work for everybody, but it surely has worked for me. Perhaps this particular therapist i was seeing wasn't not very helpful. I'm on a waiting list to see a different one in two weeks. On another waiting list to see the psychiatrist for the eval for the meds. That one takes 8 weeks. I would not take the meds without still seeing a therapist. I do not believe you can work through a rape and abuse with just pills.

My depression is caused in large part part by the bad marriage, but not processing stuff from the past that keeps me stuck is surely not going to help alleviate it. Instead it will further hinder my healing process.

Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Your husband should not be placed in a position to have to "wait" for his marriage while you go waste time in "therapy." That is not fair. He got married so he could be happy in a good marriage. NOW. Asking your husband to "wait" while you work through some old trauma is unreasonable and unfair to him. You are not working through anything, but rather causing trauma in your present life. As you can see, it is wrecking your marriage.

Yes, it is not fair. That's why i asked at the time he insisted i go into therapy if he was willing to wait, and willing to be there for support. He said he would. I explained to him the situation and the process with therapy. I told him I knew this was a heavy load to place on him, and gave him an out. He said he wanted to stay, he wanted to help me.. help US.

We've known each other for nearly 9 years. He knew about my trauma as it happened. He knows of my struggles with depression since, he has been there every step of the way. It was not like this wasn't something I didn't disclose. He knew from the get go violence will send my PTSD symptoms through the roof. He knows about the nightmares, the shut downs, the panic attacks. Why would he chooses to act violently knowing my history?


Originally Posted by MelodyLane
I would focus on conversation that he finds PLEASANT. He finds any interaction with you to be unpleasant so I focus on being as pleasant as possible. Start by quitting the therapy, getting on anti-deps and being as pleasant as possible.

If you can swing the cost, you might want to try counseling with the Harleys. They might be able to give you a plan and persuade your husband to give you another try. It is pricey [$225?] but it shouldn't take too many sessions and it would be good for your marriage instead of harmful.

That's what I've been trying to do for almost two weeks now. That's what I've been trying to do since Sunday. Sat I slipped and it seems to have erased the two previous weeks of good times, pleasant interactions and sex we've had. Understandable, I guess. He's at a breaking point. Not enough incentive in the relationship. I get it.

I cannot afford much of anything. If I was, i would have jumped on it. My hours at work have been reduced and it looks like they might want to eliminate my position. Meanwhile the business i'm trying to get off the ground is moving along, but at a slow rate. Now with him leaving, I'm going to end up having to pay for everything, and I really don't know from where I'm going to get the money.

I cannot get choosey about my therapists because I'm on programs from the government. If I had insurance or was able to afford a therapist either for myself or for the two of us, I would be shopping around like, yesterday. Unfortunately I have to make do.

He still sounds like he wants to move out, but I don't see him doing anything. This is what I mean about his ambiguous things. He says one thing, but his actions say the opposite. Still uncertain about our future.

Originally Posted by SadnDepressed
[

Therapy doesn't work for everybody, but it surely has worked for me. Perhaps this particular therapist i was seeing wasn't not very helpful. I'm on a waiting list to see a different one in two weeks. On another waiting list to see the psychiatrist for the eval for the meds. That one takes 8 weeks. I would not take the meds without still seeing a therapist. I do not believe you can work through a rape and abuse with just pills.

Worked... how? You are depressed! But you can remove the source of the trauma, which is THERAPY and a bad marriage. Like Dr Harley says, bringing the trauma of the past into the present CAUSES depression. And here you are ..... depressed! As a former counseling junkie, I know first hand it causes depression. You cannot resolve the problems of the past. If "working through" your tramatic past means bringing the past into the present, you will be perpetually stuck. And perpetually depressed. Its just simple logic. If you talk about past traumatic events, you will stay tramatized.

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My depression is caused in large part part by the bad marriage, but not processing stuff from the past that keeps me stuck is surely not going to help alleviate it. Instead it will further hinder my healing process.

You will stay stuck longer if you keep going to therapy to discuss your past. And your marriage won't survive that. Your husband is already on his way out.

You don't have to go to therapy to get anti-depressants. You can get into see any MD and get them. He will help you choose the best one for you.

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Yes, it is not fair. That's why i asked at the time he insisted i go into therapy if he was willing to wait, and willing to be there for support. He said he would. I explained to him the situation and the process with therapy. I told him I knew this was a heavy load to place on him, and gave him an out. He said he wanted to stay, he wanted to help me.. help US.

But you are not helping "US." You are hurting the marriage by keeping your focus on the past when you have more serious problems at hand. When the Titantic is sinking you don't go and boil tea in the kitchen.

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We've known each other for nearly 9 years. He knew about my trauma as it happened. He knows of my struggles with depression since, he has been there every step of the way. It was not like this wasn't something I didn't disclose. He knew from the get go violence will send my PTSD symptoms through the roof. He knows about the nightmares, the shut downs, the panic attacks. Why would he chooses to act violently knowing my history?

You are driving him away with all this. Please get yourself on anti-depressants and get yourself under control. I don't know many spouses who could endure this behavior. You have managed to drive a brand new marriage right into the ground in a less than a year. It is time to take a new approach, dear.


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That's what I've been trying to do for almost two weeks now. That's what I've been trying to do since Sunday. Sat I slipped and it seems to have erased the two previous weeks of good times, pleasant interactions and sex we've had. Understandable, I guess. He's at a breaking point. Not enough incentive in the relationship. I get it.

Did you see how your efforts were making an impact? Yes, you fell off the horse, but you can get right back up on it! It was working!!

Quote
I cannot get choosey about my therapists because I'm on programs from the government. If I had insurance or was able to afford a therapist either for myself or for the two of us, I would be shopping around like, yesterday. Unfortunately I have to make do.

Just going to a "therapist" is not going to help you since most are destructive to marriages. You would be better off using the free resources on this forum. Let those of us who have gone through the MB course help you out. You can also get help on the free radio show.

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He still sounds like he wants to move out, but I don't see him doing anything. This is what I mean about his ambiguous things. He says one thing, but his actions say the opposite. Still uncertain about our future.

That gives you an opportunity to make lovebank deposits if you will use it.
Dr Harley just mentioned on the radio show that Wellbutrin does not diminish sexual desire.
Originally Posted by alis
I notice you have only been married 10 months. Was this a recurring theme when dating?

I think others have really addressed the depression issue well - one thing I would recommend, as someone who also suffered from depression (mine was postnatal), was that exercising together with my husband really helped. Exercise helps depression - but doing it together (jogging outside, or spotting each other on the weights) also made for some fantastic UA time too. With the exercise, it helped me avoid any AOs. AOs are a huge problem when you have a short fuse with depression. We don't get permission to abuse our spouses as a result of the illness.

No it wasn't. I wasn't depressed then. I wasn't even in therapy. I didn't have a job, but I was working towards my degree and setting up my own business. I felt great, I was active, I had a positive outlook on life (something that takes serious conscious effort on my part as it is not my default). I was happy.

I did have some panic attacks following sex the first few weeks (well, maybe 2-3 months). Not pleasant for either party, but I haven't been able to NOT have them when I first start sleeping with someone new since the rape. After a while I guess I adjust and they don't happen anymore. I haven't had one during sex since. Despite knowing this, and me explaining it to him, he finds it deeply hurtful that I had the panic attacks... like he thinks I should have known he is not going to hurt me, therefore me having an attack is evidence that I think he's a SOB. I think he still carries that with him.

PTSD is always been something i've had to deal with to a certain degree. I have good stretches with almost no symptoms at all. However my startle response is never been the same (it was almost non existent). This was sort of amusing for him in the beginning... i would laugh at it too. But when something sets me off, just the phone ringing sends my heart rate up, makes me jump, etc. It get's annoying.. i get it, i have to live with it. I do not know of a way to completely eliminate it. The more depressed I get, the more conflict I have to deal with, the easier it is to set this thing off. There's always going to be some conflict in life, so I guess i'm stuck with it. Frustrating.

Exercising together sounds good in theory. We used to do it, in fact. I stopped doing it because there was no UA really. It was more like me riding/jogging/roller-blading behind him. Him with his ipod. Me just watching him from behind. Not fun... I'll see if he's up to something we can do together.

I agree illness is not an excuse to treat others disrespectfully, but neither is it an excuse for others to look down on us and disrespect us. Having been to hell and back does not make one less of a human being.
You and your DH have gotten into a script on how you deal with problems. There are other scripts.

For example, if my DD1 bumped into DD2 accidentally, DD2 goes to DEFCON5 immediately...yelling, "How rude", much overreaction. DD1 would not take responsiblity. Because DD2 is not just seeing a bump, but everything DD1 ever did to her ever. And they just have a typical sibling relationship.

If I was to bump into her, I would say "sorry" and DD2 would say "that's okay."

So she uses a different script with me for how an incident like that would be handled.

What other script can you use with your DH? You think there is only one, but clearly the one you are using isn't working for you.

Maybe you remove yourself physically from the situation.
Maybe you two use a journal to commuicate.
Maybe you say "I am feeling upset now, I would like to talk about this later."
Maybe you come up with ground rules on how to discuss an issue...like No Name Calling, Eiter party can put the discussion into a time out.
Maybe you discuss the issue with a 3rd party.
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Dr Harley just mentioned on the radio show that Wellbutrin does not diminish sexual desire.

Thanks for that info! Reading about it seems like it would be a good medication for me... but I guess that's for the Dr to decide. I'll bring it up when I have the eval.
Originally Posted by SadnDepressed
We've been married 10 months, together for 2.5 yrs, and have known each other for 8 yrs. No kids.

Our relationship has been unraveling since we moved in together,
When did you move in together?
Sept of last year. We got married in Dec.

The story is a bit complicated. He says he's not very expressive verbally. He acted like he was in love, yet when i asked (about 9 months into the relationship) he verbally said he wasn't "yet". I left it alone. He kept acting like he was in love.

Then he left to work about 10 hrs away during the summer. His place had been vandalized while he was away and he needed to move. He was "temporarily" living with me. He mentioned moving in together, to which i refused because he wasn't in love with me. I told him the is not you, is me line saying I wasn't ready (I wasn't really... didn't want to live with a person who didn't love me). He pushed the issue and about the second week of him staying here I told him my reasons. He said he was in love with me really, but he just had a hard time telling me. dontknow I then broke down and allowed him to move in.

We had to marry for legal reasons. Well we didn't have to. But we decided to do it for legal benefits. When I offered, it was agreed it was to be handled separately from our friendship and the budding relationship. He agreed. Then somewhere along the way when we started getting more serious he started being ambiguous about the agreement, saying whenever he did something he did it "right". He wasn't completely clear about it, but he meant it like the marriage was for real, not just for legal reasons. I kept insisting for a while, he delivered the same ambiguous line.

we started having trouble in our relationship when we started planning the wedding... something I will never tackle again in my entire life. It went from something very intimate and informal to a full fledged event with reception and all. We ended up trying to please family members and not taking into account what each of us really wanted/needed.

It's all been downhill from there... Nov of last year, basically. Yes, we planned the wedding in about 5 weeks.

Today he swears he loves me, but acts as if he hated my guts. Me=very confused.
It sounds like you guys didn't have the best of reasons to get married, and even though your husband says he loves you, I wonder if he says it because he wants to believe it but doesn't really mean it.

I don't know what to tell you other than listen to what other more experienced posters on your thread tell you. That, and if you can get your husband to do some phone counseling with the Harleys, I think that would be a great step towards solving your issues.
In the hypothetical chance I can scrape enough money for one phone session... how would i go about convincing him to talk to the Harleys?
Originally Posted by SadnDepressed
We had to marry for legal reasons. Well we didn't have to. But we decided to do it for legal benefits. When I offered, it was agreed it was to be handled separately from our friendship and the budding relationship. He agreed. Then somewhere along the way when we started getting more serious he started being ambiguous about the agreement, saying whenever he did something he did it "right". He wasn't completely clear about it, but he meant it like the marriage was for real, not just for legal reasons. I kept insisting for a while, he delivered the same ambiguous line.

So you agreed to get married for legal reasons and not because you were in love and/or committed? Would he have had to leave the country if you didn't marry him?
Originally Posted by SadnDepressed
When I offered, it was agreed it was to be handled separately from our friendship and the budding relationship.

Did you intend for the marriage to be permanent?
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Originally Posted by SadnDepressed
When I offered, it was agreed it was to be handled separately from our friendship and the budding relationship.

Did you intend for the marriage to be permanent?

In the beginning, when I first offered, no I didn't. It was a separate arrangement between friends. He felt the same way. After a while when things got serius, I did see myself with him for the long run, but I didn't say anything. When we were planning the wedding and I saw him spending so much $ on somrthing which, in my mind, was just an arrangement we talked about it and he said outright he saw himself with me for the long run as well and that the marriage for him was for real.
Has he changed his perspective about the marriage? And did he want to get married so he could stay in the country?
Yes, he also he said he had changed his perspective about our marriage and wants it to be for the long run. I asked why and he gave me reasons which ring true to me about our relationship. He also said he loves me.

I cannot comment on the nature of the legal reasons why I initially offered to marry him. Sorry ML.

SD
He got an apt last night. Used me to go pick up a bed. I found out what we were doing after I had agreed to go with him to drop off a friend's U-haul after we (H and I) helped them move. We were on our way to his mother's to pick up a bed whenhe told me what he was doing. It was very humliating for me. frown

We spoke briefly in the car on our way home. He stated he wanted to have a second place just in case. I mean, we don't have any $ and he's renting another apt (the one our friends moved out from). He is leaving Nov 29 for two months and was complaining that he needed to watch every penny in order to leave me with enough $ while he was away to cover the bills. Now the amt he has to come up with has nearly doubled!

I asked what his plan is... he wants to have a place where he can 'get better', but he's not moving there unless 'i make him'. So basically, as I undestand it, it's his back up plan... if he doesn't think I'm behaving up to his standard, he's out. It is a veiled threat. And to top it off, since I'm the cause of all his troubles, then I'm the one that's gotta fix things or he's out.

He had asked me to look for a roommate for our apt, since we're so tight w $. I had spoken with a friend we have in common and who we had both agreed beefore could make a decent housemate. This guy seem to like the idea of moving here... now H went and offered the same friend to be *his* roommate at the other apt. WTH? I so don't get him.

I spoke with him briefly on the phone. He insists he doesn't want US to try and come up with a solution... in his mine we've already tried many times and failed, so he'd much rather take the advice of a 'professional' (refering to the semblance of a counselor we got).

I think this is my time to jump in and try to have him talk with the Harleys... I don't know from where I'm gonna scrape the $, but I will.

Can someone please advise me on what would be the best way to present this to my H?

SD
Ok, he wants to talk tonight. I'll try to see if he's amenable to speaking with Dr Harley.

I'll let you know how it all goes. Sigh....
Posted By: BWS71 Re: H blames me solely for the state we're in - 10/18/12 12:59 PM
SaD - I'm going to make some general comments that I hope are helpful.

You cannot control your husband's mind or feelings. The only way you are going to attract him back to your marriage is by changing your behavior.

If you do not know what to change - let's identify that and work on it.

If you do know what to change but feel you truly can't make those changes - let's identify that and work on it.

I want you to know I respect PTSD. I had some mild PTSD for about a year and a half after my deployment. I also respect depression as a true medical condition that you can't just wish away. If you are currently disabled by these conditions It's ok to admit that. Be careful you're not hiding behind those conditions and thus robbing yourself of the benefits of true engagement and change. I'm not saying you are at all - but that is the one of the dangers.
Thank you BWS...

Yes, I know I can't change how he feels or acts... as much as I wish I could, sometimes, lol. I do want to become more attractive to him so our marriage doesn't go down the tubes. AO are one of the things I identified... I read up all I could find on anger management and last night's conversation was a LOT better. He did get angry, but I managed to refocus myself and relaxed. He agreed to talk to Dr Harley! smile

I have a general idea of what I need to change, but I would need help identifying specifics and how to bring about that change. Any help appreciated. Sometimes I feel like I shouldn't make a change or I might be resistant to an idea, but I usually will come around after some reading (like I did about the AO). If nothing else, it will always benefit my life to make a positive, change rigght?

I know what you mean about hiding behind one of these conditions. I try not to. As far as the PTSD, I think I'm pretty successful at it, since I've lived with it for a few years now. The depression is tricky as I'm not always sure if it's the condition itself, or me just being lazy and trying to justify my actions with it.

Now.... how do I get him in touch with dr harley? What should I put in the comments section.... the whole story? Point him to this thread?

SD
S&D, you can reach Dr Harley for no cost by sending him an email to the radio show. Tell him what has happened and ask him for help. Tell him your husband would be willing to speak to him. There is no guarantee he will answer but sometimes he does.

Be sure and tell Dr Harley how your marriage was planned initially, that it was an arrangement for legal reasons only.

Or you can sign up for the counseling [paid] with Steve Harley or his sister, Dr Jennifer Chalmers for a cost.

Did you contact an MD to get on anti-deps?
When you write the email, keep it short sweet and concise. If it is too long, Joyce takes much longer to answer it.
Originally Posted by maritalbliss
Quote
In part, the other part is that I'm a high risk persson bit.
I saw that. That is a very curious statement. Did you ask him what, exactly, makes you a 'high risk person'? You do have a right to know that, so he should be open to informing you of what he perceives to be your 'high risk' nature.

She has mentioned mental health issues a few times. I imagine that is what he is talking about.

Maybe bipolar or something of that nature.

committed

Editing: read a little further through the thread and caught the depression thing.
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We had to marry for legal reasons. Well we didn't have to.


Hmmm...you mentioned earlier in the thread that he purchased a ticket to go on a 2 month vacation back to "his country".

So...did you marry to give him a green card?

committed
My old friend, commie!! laugh
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
When you write the email, keep it short sweet and concise. If it is too long, Joyce takes much longer to answer it.

Ok, thanks for the pointers. I will get to that email right now. Quick question... how long should I wait to see if they choose to answer my question before it's safe to say they've decided not to cover it during the radio show? I only ask so I know how long to hold out for before borrowing money to do the paid thing. Thanks.

SD
Originally Posted by committedandlovi
Quote
We had to marry for legal reasons. Well we didn't have to.


Hmmm...you mentioned earlier in the thread that he purchased a ticket to go on a 2 month vacation back to "his country".

So...did you marry to give him a green card?

committed

Hi, there... unfortunately I cannot comment on the nature of the legal reasons I had to offer to marry him. I hope you guys understand.

Hmm... this raises the following question. Do they use full names during the radio show? Is the info I send confidential? Does anyone know how I could find out?

Oh, and ML -- I cannot afford to visit a MD for the anti depressants. I have an appt this Sat with the people from the local government funded mental health place for an eval. Hopefully this will be the solution to the pill thing.

SD
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
My old friend, commie!! laugh


Hi Mel!!!!
Originally Posted by SadnDepressed
Originally Posted by committedandlovi
Quote
We had to marry for legal reasons. Well we didn't have to.


Hmmm...you mentioned earlier in the thread that he purchased a ticket to go on a 2 month vacation back to "his country".

So...did you marry to give him a green card?

committed

Hi, there... unfortunately I cannot comment on the nature of the legal reasons I had to offer to marry him. I hope you guys understand.

Hmm... this raises the following question. Do they use full names during the radio show? Is the info I send confidential? Does anyone know how I could find out?

Oh, and ML -- I cannot afford to visit a MD for the anti depressants. I have an appt this Sat with the people from the local government funded mental health place for an eval. Hopefully this will be the solution to the pill thing.

SD


They only use first names during the radio shows.
Thanks. Writing to them now.
Posted By: markos Re: H blames me solely for the state we're in - 10/19/12 04:24 PM
They are more than happy to use an assumed name or just refer to you as "Caller," as well.
Originally Posted by SadnDepressed
Originally Posted by committedandlovi
Quote
We had to marry for legal reasons. Well we didn't have to.


Hmmm...you mentioned earlier in the thread that he purchased a ticket to go on a 2 month vacation back to "his country".

So...did you marry to give him a green card?

committed

Hi, there... unfortunately I cannot comment on the nature of the legal reasons I had to offer to marry him. I hope you guys understand.

Hmm... this raises the following question. Do they use full names during the radio show? Is the info I send confidential? Does anyone know how I could find out?

Oh, and ML -- I cannot afford to visit a MD for the anti depressants. I have an appt this Sat with the people from the local government funded mental health place for an eval. Hopefully this will be the solution to the pill thing.

SD

Notice the highlighted area?

And...no I do NOT understand.


You offered to marry him for "legal" reasons...which means to me it was for the purpose of some kind of fraud.

He took you up on that offer which leads me to believe that he married you cause you offered some kind of legal wrangling.

He just needed to get married for some kind of legal reason...not because he wanted to because he loved you.

Now you want him to love you and be some kind of husband...when it was really just some kind of legal wrangling arrangement.

You cannot comment on it because it is suspect at best and illegal at worst.

Just my opinion.

committed
Posted By: alis Re: H blames me solely for the state we're in - 10/19/12 04:47 PM
Yes, you really need to speak with the Harleys. And you need to tell them the real reason for your marriage.

Dr. Harley has actually worked with marriages that began without love, so I have read. So, not saying it is impossible.

But this really is a massive hurdle above & beyond a 'typical' problem marriage, because there is no foundation of love to go "back to". Part of MB involves restoring and rebuilding romantic love - if the commitment did not exist to start with, it will be that much harder.
Just sent the email.

We've been good friends for years. I offered because my friend needed help. Apart from that we got involved in a serious committed relationship... would we have gotten married so soon had the legal reason not existed? I honestly doubt it, but had we not gotten involved and remained as just friends, I would have helped him just the same. Basically what I'm saying is the relationship didn't need to exist in order for me to help him. Yes, it complicate things a lot. I was very naive to think we could keep things separate.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that from my point of view there has been love here, and there still is to some degree.

If the marriage doesn't survive this crisis, and it ends without betrayal or abuse, I'd still remain legally married to him until I see things through. Our friendship of so many years deserves at least that.

SD
This is just too painful. What do you do when any minor conversation ends with tears? I so wish I could reach him. I so wish he would see me. He won't talk to me. His perception of our conversations is so negative, he doesn't even gives us a try. I feel so invisible to him.
He is fogged out and addicted to the "wonderful feelings" that he gets from his fantasy addiction. I am sooo sorry that you are hurting right now. He is chasing his fix. He has to demonize you to justify doing what he is doing. He is NOT in his right mind. He looks fine, but he is NOT!! He is an addict chasing his addiction - nothing else matters! I just wanted to tell you that I saw your post, am sending positive feelings your way, and to tell you to remain true to yourself!! YOU draw your boundaries and stay true to yourself. You do not deserve to be treated in this way.
Originally Posted by SadnDepressed
This is just too painful. What do you do when any minor conversation ends with tears? I so wish I could reach him. I so wish he would see me. He won't talk to me. His perception of our conversations is so negative, he doesn't even gives us a try. I feel so invisible to him.


A bad marriage is the loneliest place on the planet. But you can change this. You have to stop with the tear stuff and start plan A.
how? That's what I'm asking. Where do you find the. Strength to put up with their DJ and criticism. Honest question here....

If there was like a tylenol for emotional pain, id take that around 5pm every night....

SD
Originally Posted by SadnDepressed
how? That's what I'm asking. Where do you find the. Strength to put up with their DJ and criticism. Honest question here....
SD


How? By wanting a happy marriage and being prepared to do whatever it takes to get that. Plan A is tough, it is about meeting your spouse's emotional needs whilst avoiding ALL lovebusters 100%. So if tears are a lovebuster for him (they often are), you cry in secret. Use ice on your eyes afterwards so that he cannot tell you were crying.

If he is critical, you gently tell him 'ouch that hurt' and then you immediately change the subject to something cheerful. For instance, you might ask him what he wants for lunch. Same with any DJ.

Nobody is suggesting you do this for the rest of your life. You do it for long enough to entice him into/back into the marriage. If it does not work, you can leave knowing you did your best.

Good show about DJs.
Radio clip on DJs
Segment #2
Segment #3
OMG... Thanks for the links BH. Listened to them yesterday and have been trying my very best to avoid LB. This is hard. He takes everything i say and spins it negatively. Sigh...

One day at a time, I guess...

SD
Here's a good clip of Dr. Harley explaining how a couple probably has grown apart and will need to try POJA.

Radio clip on growing apart
So before it was about my "depression", then about my AO, now it's about my annoying habits... And he's taking to talking to me like I have trouble understanding simple sentences. I want to scream everytime he does it. UGH!!

No word from the Harleys yet about the radio show. I truly cannot afford the private phone sessions at this point. Has anyone been in this position? I agree the best thing would be to have him talk on the phone with someone there, but I don't know when I'll be able to afford that. I haven't brought up reading the material anymore because it just sparks a bad attitude in him. I have quit trying to sell it to him, since anything and everything that comes out of my mouth is bound to be damned in his eyes. I just don't know what else is there that I can do.

I can listen to the radio show and read all the materials until I'm blue in the face. It will most likely benefit me anyways in the long run, but if he's not willing to lift a finger I don't see this relationship working out. I'm running against the clock here... he's leaving Nov 29th.

SD
Originally Posted by SadnDepressed
I can listen to the radio show and read all the materials until I'm blue in the face. It will most likely benefit me anyways in the long run
Yes indeed it will

Originally Posted by SadnDepressed
but if he's not willing to lift a finger I don't see this relationship working out. I'm running against the clock here... he's leaving Nov 29th.
SD


I have an idea for you. You won't want to hear this but what about putting his feet to the fire? Decide that if you two split up, you will withdraw your sponsorship of him. It will get him focused like nothing else will. Right now he thinks he can do whatever he wants and gets a free ride. Why would you allow that?
Posted By: alis Re: H blames me solely for the state we're in - 10/24/12 01:51 PM
What little money you have might be best spent on an attorney consultation at this point. If you have sponsored him (and you haven't said, and that's fine, but let's say IF such a thing took place) then you are likely liable for supporting him at a certain % above poverty level if he chooses to stay in the US.
Originally Posted by living_well
I have an idea for you. You won't want to hear this but what about putting his feet to the fire? Decide that if you two split up, you will withdraw your sponsorship of him. It will get him focused like nothing else will. Right now he thinks he can do whatever he wants and gets a free ride. Why would you allow that?

You know what the problem with that is (for me, at least)? I would be forcing him to remain in this marriage. I don't want to "make him" want to be with me, or love me or what have you. I don't want this relationship to be an obligation. Where's the love there??

If he doesn't see past our hurt and issues, and cannot or will not work on this with me, then why would I want to make him?

Yes, I could and probably would end up undoing the legal arrangement by getting a divorce, but if that happens is because I cannot bear the thought of him gaining a better life at the cost of mine. Not as a ploy to get him to remain in a relationship to me. If I'm not valuable to him, his life... if his priorities are elsewhere, why would I want to remain with a person like that?

What I want is a partnership. What we used to have before. We would help each other out, we were there to listen, to catch each other when we fell, we had fun. We treated each other as equals... I don't have kids and don't plan on having any, so why else would I want to marry anyone? If he's not willing or capable to be that person, what the heck am I doing here?

What keeps me here is that I know we've done it before, and that leads me to think he's capable... at least to a degree. But I have doubts, of course, and the legal arrangement just cast a bigger shadow over the whole thing because everything is so circumstantial.

I would call it quits if I was sure he is not capable of giving, or learning how to give me emotional support. Because it is all too simple to be there for someone when all if fine, but what happens if I get ill? If/when my parents die? Heck, even when the dog dies!? Would I be able to count on him then, or will he remain unable to deal with "so much negativity"?

Anyhow, I've rambled enough... thanks for the suggestion, and it is most definitely not a bad one. It might get him running to save the marriage, but I just wouldn't see that type of marriage as a valuable one for me to remain in.

SD

Originally Posted by SadnDepressed
You know what the problem with that is (for me, at least)? I would be forcing him to remain in this marriage. I don't want to "make him" want to be with me, or love me or what have you. I don't want this relationship to be an obligation. Where's the love there??
The vows of marriage have already imposed an obligation on you both to do whatever is necessary to care for and protect each other. There is no need to worry, the love will come if you do this right. Any marriage can be successful if both sides follow MB rules.

Originally Posted by SadnDepressed
If I'm not valuable to him, his life... if his priorities are elsewhere, why would I want to remain with a person like that?
That is the right question to be asking yourself. If you become convinced that no matter what you do, he does not care enough to work on the marriage, you need to move on.

Originally Posted by SadnDepressed
I would call it quits if I was sure he is not capable of giving, or learning how to give me emotional support.
A marriage is a partnership. It is not just about giving emotional support, that would be far to draining for anyone to do over an extended period. It is about working on meeting each other's emotional needs actively, every single day.

Originally Posted by SadnDepressed
It might get him running to save the marriage, but I just wouldn't see that type of marriage as a valuable one for me to remain in.
Here is something you might find helpful on your journey. If you are concerned that he might just fake it (he might) watch what happens when you use the Policy of Joint Agreement. You will be amazed at how revealing it is, there is no better way to smoke out a faker.

Here is an invented example; he wants to go to his country for a holiday and you are concerned that he might use that time to meet other women so you POJA the visit. The outcome that makes you both happy is that you go with him. If he is genuine, he then goes out and buys you a ticket, if he is faking it he will find 'an insurmountable objection' later that day/week.

Let us know how you get on.
How do you implement the POJA when we can't even talk. Mere talking is a LB to him at this stage.

I think my only hope is to get him to talk to the Harleys. There has been no response regarding the radio show question I submitted last week; how long should I wait in your opinion?

SD
Originally Posted by SadnDepressed
How do you implement the POJA when we can't even talk. Mere talking is a LB to him at this stage.
POJA is for down the road, not for today. Today you are going to use the carrot of Plan A and the stick of Plan D.

In Plan A you are going to be everything that attracted him to you in the first place - you are going to have fun and invite him to have fun with you. You are not going to ask for any emotional support as this is clearly an LB for him (it is for most men).

Originally Posted by SadnDepressed
I think my only hope is to get him to talk to the Harleys. There has been no response regarding the radio show question I submitted last week; how long should I wait in your opinion?

I think this is a great idea, hopefully someone will come by and give you a response. I have no experience of the radio show.
What is plan D?
Originally Posted by SadnDepressed
What is plan D?
Divorce
Originally Posted by SadnDepressed
How do you implement the POJA when we can't even talk. Mere talking is a LB to him at this stage.

I think my only hope is to get him to talk to the Harleys. There has been no response regarding the radio show question I submitted last week; how long should I wait in your opinion?

SD
The Harleys usually respond within a week. Send another email and also notify the MODS and they will also let the Harleys know.
Hi all, thought i'd give you an update.

Went on and maxed out the only CC i had and got my H to talk to Steve Harley. He then (Steve) spoke to me and told me my H had agreed to look at the material. It took 2 weeks for my H to mention anything about the session.

He hasn't to date done a single thing. I've been trying to keep LB to a minimum while trying to meet his needs, but that's a hard feat to pull given that he just gets more belligerent and demanding. He has mentioned he does not intend to work on any of the material until he's away on his trip. I find this unacceptable and a firm and clear message that he does not have this marriage very high up on his priority list.

I'm just done. I'm telling him to go today. Thanks for all your suggestions and advice. It would have been simple (not easy) to solve our troubles if he was willing, but he's clearly got his sight on something totally different from having a fulfilled relationship with me.

SD
Posted By: BWS71 Re: H blames me solely for the state we're in - 11/06/12 12:27 AM
SnD - I'm sad to hear this news, sad for both of you. I think you're right - understanding what needs to be done is simple. Getting both people to do their parts is not.
Ok, so I told him. This is not what I want, and he knows it. He's asking if he can still see me. Hasn't left. Insists he doesn't see how we can turn things around as he feels he's exhausted all his emotional resources and if he keeps going he's going to end up in therapy (which might not be such a bad thing... him doing some therapy, i mean).

Meantime, I'm deeply in love with this person and have huge abandonment issues to boot. I know I need to let him go... in fact, I need to get him to go, but how!?

Furthermore, this house is full of reminders of the life we'll never have together. It hurts just sleeping on this bed, looking at the walls we were going to paint, watching the dog long for him to arrive every time someone comes through the building door (she can hear it). This all just breaks my heart... How do I get through this?

SD
Originally Posted by SadnDepressed
Ok, so I told him. This is not what I want, and he knows it. He's asking if he can still see me. Hasn't left.

Originally Posted by SadnDepressed
I know I need to let him go... in fact, I need to get him to go, but how!?


Neither of you was honest with the other about your expectations from this marriage. You married because you loved him but said you were marrying as a friend to help him out. He married you because he needed permanent residence.

To repair the damage that this lack of honesty has caused, you both have to go back and start again or abandon this marriage, learn from your experience and do better next time.

Originally Posted by living_well
[quote=SadnDepressed]
To repair the damage that this lack of honesty has caused, you both have to go back and start again ...

How do you start again? Is it possible to start again?
Originally Posted by living_well
To repair the damage that this lack of honesty has caused, you both have to go back and start again ...

Originally Posted by SadnDepressed
How do you start again? Is it possible to start again?


It is always possible to start again but you both need to want to. Start by owning your own lack of honesty. Tell him that you now know that you were wrong and that you deceived him. See where that goes. Admit to your own faults and let him admit his if he wishes to. If he walks away, let him go.
I can admit to my own faults, but just to make it clear... I NEVER deceived him about our marriage. He knew all along I had deep feelings for him. He chose to go through with the marriage as a real marriage... but I'm thinking maybe he wasn't on the same page as me.

Right now I don't think it would be a good idea to try to contact him. I told him I was still willing to work on the marriage. I told him also ending everything is not what I wanted, and that I was doing it because he didn't have courage to do it himself. That is my biggest regret right now. I feel like I could kick myself for being so stupid! I did this to myself, and now there's no going back.

He tells me he still loves me, but has lost faith in us ever working out. I can only hope he will come back after catching his breath. In the meantime there isn't much i can do... i can only better myself.. get out of this depression and put myself back together.

SD
Yes you are only able to better yourself.

Suppose you have two very close friends with whom you share lots of history and common interests. One is full of fun, interested in what you are up to and makes you feel great, the other is always moaning and groaning and talking about herself and how she needs your sympathy. You might love both of them but which will you spend your time with?

Think yourself into being like the first of these people and you will be rewarded with a thousand blessings. Maybe from an unexpected place.
Did you hear back from the Harleys?
Yes, I did. Spoke with Steve Harley and my H had agreed to look over the material and the videos in the site... but then he never did.

I also heard from Joyce and spoke with them on the radio on monday. Dr Harley recommends me to choose a better partner next time. My heart is still on this marriage, I do not want to give up, but I guess people here are no longer willing to help.

Everybody hears the part where I married him to help him initially and the rest of the story becomes a moot point to their ears. There's so much more to us than that....

SD
Originally Posted by SadnDepressed
Yes, I did. Spoke with Steve Harley and my H had agreed to look over the material and the videos in the site... but then he never did.

I also heard from Joyce and spoke with them on the radio on monday. Dr Harley recommends me to choose a better partner next time. My heart is still on this marriage, I do not want to give up, but I guess people here are no longer willing to help.

Everybody hears the part where I married him to help him initially and the rest of the story becomes a moot point to their ears. There's so much more to us than that....

SD
Radio clip on SadandDepressed's call
Segment #2
Segment #3
Segment #4
I really regret what I did after the show. I really regret telling him to go.

He does love me, i know that. I can feel it. There is no affair, there is no ulterior motive. He even told me he was thinking of maybe just staying in his country.

We still talk. I try to be good and sound happy on the phone. People who know us tell me to give it some time... he's got so much in his head he can't see things clearly right now. I'd like to believe them. I don't know what to do. All I know is that I want US back...

SD
Originally Posted by SadnDepressed
I really regret what I did after the show. I really regret telling him to go.

He does love me, i know that. I can feel it. There is no affair, there is no ulterior motive. He even told me he was thinking of maybe just staying in his country.

We still talk. I try to be good and sound happy on the phone. People who know us tell me to give it some time... he's got so much in his head he can't see things clearly right now. I'd like to believe them. I don't know what to do. All I know is that I want US back...

SD
Then why doesn't he show by his actions of doing his MB homework?
I think he's overwhelmed. I think I complained so much and nothing was ever good enough for me and ending up making it so that there was very little for him in the relationship. I know this happened because of his independence... he would try to work on the relationship but it was always one sided... and he wouldn't tell me he was doing this or that for us. All I got was that he wasn't trying the "right" way (because he kept missing the mark in his attempts to meet my needs), and would complain.

He's not comfortable speaking about feelings and it is very hard for him to allow himself to feel vulnerable.

Right now I think he's got nothing working right in his life here. His relationship is gone, his job is crap, his project is an abstract, he's not financially stable... His family is going through a really rough time and he's thinking maybe he can do more there than here.

He still seeks me. He has called 3 times. He came over last night to feed our dog (who is more upset than I am, i think, about his absence...she wouldn't eat for me). The fact that he still wants to have contact gives me some hope that maybe there's still a chance we could work.

SD
Originally Posted by SadnDepressed
I think he's overwhelmed. I think I complained so much and nothing was ever good enough for me and ending up making it so that there was very little for him in the relationship. I know this happened because of his independence... he would try to work on the relationship but it was always one sided... and he wouldn't tell me he was doing this or that for us. All I got was that he wasn't trying the "right" way (because he kept missing the mark in his attempts to meet my needs), and would complain.

He's not comfortable speaking about feelings and it is very hard for him to allow himself to feel vulnerable.

Right now I think he's got nothing working right in his life here. His relationship is gone, his job is crap, his project is an abstract, he's not financially stable... His family is going through a really rough time and he's thinking maybe he can do more there than here.

He still seeks me. He has called 3 times. He came over last night to feed our dog (who is more upset than I am, i think, about his absence...she wouldn't eat for me). The fact that he still wants to have contact gives me some hope that maybe there's still a chance we could work.

SD
Will he talk with Steve?

Does he tell you he loves you?

What were you complaining about? Why wouldn't he change what you were complaining about?
He spoke with Steve 2 weeks ago. There are no more funds to continue to talk to Steve. The other thing about continuing to talk is that he hasn't familiarized himself with the concepts of MB yet, so I don't know how effective the sessions would be until he reads up on them or watches some of the videos.

After the talk with Steve he was willing to read up some, and watch the videos. Then he didn't say anything about the session or anything else regarding working on the marriage. He was full throttle trying to come up with money to leave things paid here while he's out of the country. After some time, the topic of the session came up and he mentioned he was going to look over the stuff while he was in his country. Right now I'm unsure as to if he's still willing to do that. I'm leaning towards "no" because of how overwhelmed he is.

He has never been the kind of guy to express his feelings verbally and spontaneously. I asked him if he still loves me and he says yes, although he admits his feelings towards me have decreased. But he insists he still does love me.

I was complaining about our lack of intimacy... given his trouble being expressive verbally like that, he has a lot of trouble meeting this need of mine. He's also not comfortable allowing himself to feel emotionally vulnerable, so that creates another barrier in meeting my need for intimate conversation and just feeling connected. He has a hard time with trust... this is from his upbringing. He has attempted to change this. He would text me sweet things and that he loved me... my mistake was not being happy with the little steps and always pushing for more.

The other main complaint of mine, which i didn't understand how to explain it to him until i read the MB concepts was his independent behavior. He feels he would stop being himself if he was to "comform" to someone else. He becomes defensive and communication becomes totally unsuccessful at that point. I would also get defensive and those were most of our arguments.

As to why he wouldn't change his Independent behavior? My conclusion is his trust issue. He believes he's going to lose himself if he molds his behavior to better the relationship. He rebels against it and tends to do the exact opposite. If he could just learn to cool himself when he's feeling defensive, or to let down his guard a little we could accomplish great things.

Thank you BH for continuing to try to help. I really appreciate it as I do not know where else to turn.

SD
So do you think he may not be marriage material? A really MB marriage where you live as one?

Do you not agree with Dr. H's assessment?
Not completely, no. I know he didn't just marry me for the benefits of staying here. I know there's love.

I believe it would be a difficult path for us to create a good marriage, but I know we can both do it. I also know now he has a lower tolerance for emotional stress than a lot of other people, but that doesn't mean we cannot learn to manage such stress.

I still believe in us making it as a couple. I regret DEEPLY telling him to go. I should have let myself cool down after my talk on the radio show with the Harleys. I know a lot of people for whom dealing with a marriage such as mine is a fairly removed subject is very easy to generalize and say most people in my H's shoes would take advantage of the other person. And, although that can happen, it's not usually the case. And I know it is not our case. There's too much history here... he could have just as easily gotten the benefit without creating a home here with me. I offered that because I know how to separate these things. He knew he could have gone about it the easy way. There has been no need for him to fake a marriage, love, or commitment. That has all been real.

SD
Hi SadnDepressed,

I have been following your thread, and heard you on air with Dr. Harley.

Have you read Dr. Harley's basic concepts? If yes, do you completely agree with His concepts for how to build and maintain romantic love? You seem to feel Dr. Harley did not really understand your situation, and told Dr. Harley that you also felt the people who have advised you here don't really get it either, and everyone is getting to hung up on the legal reasons for the marriage.

It seems to me that you feel your marriage is quite unique. I do not mean that in a judgemental way, I came to MB initially skeptical about this program, and also feeling my own situation was quite unique, and basically decided to pick the parts of the program I agreed with, and would implement. That was a complete disaster in my marriage.

It is 100% possible that your H was INDEED completely in love with you and committed to the marriage 10 months ago. The problem is he is NOT now. How do I know? I know because he would not be behaving the way that he is now if he was. This does not mean he has zero feelings for you, but people that are IN LOVE don't separate, or leave the spouse behind to go out of the country.

I could have possibly left my H for a long period of time while we were in withdrawal and not in love, but would not ever do so now for ANY reason. My H had to go out of town for 3 days several months ago and I couldn't wait to see him.

It is VERY unusual that he would be willing to go away and leave you for 2 months. I question his commitment to you in general. My kids are older, and would get along fine here with my H, and I could leave them for an extended period, but would NEVER be willing to do that for any reason, period! I have went 10 years without seeing my family and still could never do that or have any desire to do so period. My life and family come first over anyone else. Why is this the case in your situation?

The only explanation is that he is not currently in love with you or very committed to you relationship. The only way to save this marriage is to build or rebuild romantic love.

I also heard Dr Harley's wise words on your situation and agree 100% with tisme but he said something more didn't he? He told you to file for divorce and see if that brought your H back into working on the marriage. He said that you would know pretty quickly if he was faking it to preserve the marriage until the end of the two year probationary period.

I know you do not want to file for divorce because it means telling him you married him for love but your relationship stands no chance without honesty.

How will you feel if, as soon as his greencard becomes permanent, he divorces you leaving you with a 10 year financial liability for him. Oh and a new girlfriend too. That is what will happen if you continue your present course of action.
Originally Posted by tismeagain
Hi SadnDepressed,

The only way to save this marriage is to build or rebuild romantic love.

How do I do that... this is what i want to know.
Living well... he knows I married him for love. Is not like i was dishonest about that. He married me for love, too. Yes, there's the papers situation which was ultimately what the whole marrying thing was about at the beginning, but things changed as the relationship progressed. We were not dishonest about those changes to each other at any point.

If I divorce him, he will sign the papers and stay in his country. Forcing him into an agreement will accomplish absolutely nothing. If anything is to be salvaged, he needs to come back to the marriage willingly. I know this because I have known this person for almost a decade.

Based on this knowledge I can assure you, as well, if the marriage cannot be saved and we go our separate ways, we will divorce at the end of the two years. Girlfriend or no girlfriend I'm still going to feel like [censored], but he will not screw me with alimony or any of that crap. He is an honest man.

SD
Originally Posted by SadnDepressed
If anything is to be salvaged, he needs to come back to the marriage willingly.

Plan Hope has yet to save a single marriage.

Originally Posted by SadnDepressed
he will not screw me with alimony or any of that crap.


Did you read what you signed? You took financial liability for him for 10 years. This has NOTHING to do with alimony, it is the INS. So if he is knocked down and goes into the emergency room without medical insurance or asks for any form of welfare, they come after you to be reimbursed. Are you aware of that?
Yes I am aware... and I know he won't do that. He'll take responsibility for his expenses if it comes to that. If not, well that's a risk I'm willing to take.

Now, this is not about plan hope. I know if I file, he'll just sign the papers and stay in his country. How is that going to help me save my marriage?

Any other ideas i can implement?

SD
S&D, you deserve so much better than this. You sound like a bright, articulate woman who can attract a man who would love and care for her. It hurts my heart to hear that your H does not like talking to you. It is so obvious he does not love you. There are many men out there who would love to talk to you.

Please divorce this man and follow Dr Harley's advice. Stop allowing him to use you like this and free yourself up to date other men so you can find someone who truly cares for you.
I guess you're all given up on trying to help me rebuild love in my marriage. You will help people who have been out of the marriage for months, but somehow you've all decided my marriage is not worth your time and effort. Fair enough.

ML, I appreciate your words, and I know there is some truth to what you're saying.... I'm just not ready to call it quits here yet. I haven't given it my best.

Thank you for your interest throughout this time... I'm guess I'm now on my own as to repairing my marriage and restoring love.

SD
Originally Posted by SadnDepressed
I guess you're all given up on trying to help me rebuild love in my marriage. You will help people who have been out of the marriage for months, but somehow you've all decided my marriage is not worth your time and effort. Fair enough.

ML, I appreciate your words, and I know there is some truth to what you're saying.... I'm just not ready to call it quits here yet. I haven't given it my best.

Thank you for your interest throughout this time... I'm guess I'm now on my own as to repairing my marriage and restoring love.

SD

There is something you can always do: Pray.
Take your cares to the Holy Cross and lay them there.
Originally Posted by SadnDepressed
I guess you're all given up on trying to help me rebuild love in my marriage. You will help people who have been out of the marriage for months, but somehow you've all decided my marriage is not worth your time and effort. Fair enough.

Do you know how to rebuild the love in a marriage with someone who refuses to participate? Because I sure don't. You are asking us to help you achieve the impossible from my perspective. I think you have to look at this realistically and just accept that you can't force someone into a marriage.

I would love to help you if I saw a way, but I don't. Sorry. frown
Posted By: markos Re: H blames me solely for the state we're in - 11/09/12 09:40 PM
Sad, I would strongly encourage you to follow Dr. Harley's exact advice for your situation. This advice stands the best chance of restoring the love in your marriage.

What does Dr. Harley advise a woman to do in a situation where her husband has been approached to participate in rebuilding the love in the marriage and he has refused? I would study this program until I understood what his advice is for that situation, and then I would do that.

If you will take the initiative to learn what Dr. Harley advises for such a situation and do it, I guarantee you we will support you in that.
Hi Sad&Depressed,

I heard you on the radio this week & have read a bit of your thread. I know you want to save your marriage and build love back into it, and this is admirable.

My H was reluctant, too. In fact, he became so abusive I told him to leave. That's the moment he decided to work on our marriage: when he saw he had lost me. I'm sorry that's what it took, but that's the way it worked for us. We are now working together and building a better marriage.

Sometimes Dr. Harley recommends a separation partly to 'wake up' the reluctant spouse. If you do file for divorce, your H may suddenly realize all the goodness he's about to lose, and he may decide that he doesn't want to lose you! If he walks away, then you'll know there was no hope anyway...he wasn't willing to have a great marriage with you, and no amount of your trying would change this.

Have you heard the saying, "We never know the worth of water until the well is dry?" Filing for divorce doesn't mean it's all over: it means the well is dry and he gets to decide how much he wants that water.

...Just my thoughts. I'm sorry you are in this difficult situation.

~ Z
Sad, I don't know how much you've read about the electric personality here. I hear what you're saying that your H doesn't respond to things like most folks would, that he acts in a much more extreme way. Like instead of realizing what he stands to lose, like Z's H did, just using it as fuel for the withdrawal that already makes sense to him. The thing is, is that what you want for the rest of your life? An extraordinarily difficult man that you can only reach by jumping through hoops, well past the point you have any enthusiasm for that? What about when life's real troubles hit, and all this guy knows how to do is bail? You deserve more, Sad.

When I told my then-H that I wanted him to leave, like it describes in When to Call it Quits, he said something like the only way to get him out would be to divorce him. Like you, I knew what an extraordinarily hard shell he had, and I knew he wasn't bluffing, so I cut my losses and filed. After the divorce, he said he wanted to reconcile, but unlike Elaine's H, in the newsletter, he wasn't willing to get the outside help I had let him know about, or find anything on his own to address the real issues in our marriage. Good to know. I didn't need to waste more years on someone who would only stand up for his family when it's easy and convenient.

If you look around at the folks who have turned their marriages around, like cwmi, markos, and the gang, they didn't do it through half measures only when it was most convenient. It took consistent outside help.

Z, how about an update on your thread?
Hi NED, I haven't heard about electric personality here or anywhere else.

We saw each other by chance Sat night at the supermarket. Had a short conversation and arranged to have a coffee the following day. He picked me up, we had a nice time out for coffee, then he came upstairs to spend some time with the animals (dog especially, she's not doing too good) when he dropped me off.

Later that night he used an excuse to swing by again. We visited a while over another coffee, then he used the "it's raining" excuse to stay a while longer. We watched an episode of a TV show we both enjoy while the rain stopped. He was affectionate, and sad... at one point i think he may have teared up behind me. He suggested we meet for another coffee soon, but I haven't heard from him since (it's only been 2 days, but it feels like an eternity). During the time we spent together on Sunday, not one word about "us" was mentioned. Just pleasant conversation about other stuff.

I do not contact him... if he feels pressured, he'll just pull away even more. He's still providing financial support. I have been in contact with one of his friends in whom he confides. This person is supportive of our marriage. H has been commenting about how he was surprised I'm doing "well", and I'm not totally broken and run over with the depression. His friend says he is angry because he feels i kicked him out our home, but despite the anger he feels dim hope of reconciling. He has mentioned he's going to give it until he comes back to see if I can get out of the pit of depression before he makes a decision whether things are salvageable, but he doesn't want to risk his emotional well-being by enduring life with a depressed partner who is unwilling to treat the illness (at least in his view).

His friend suggests I let him come to me.. not to pursue him. To be warm and affectionate when he seeks me out... to try to be the person he fell in love with before all our issues, but to not rush into talking about fixing our situation, as he is not yet receptive. I feel i have found an ally in his friend and I'm very grateful for that.

Despite all this, I realize I cannot just wait here for him. I know what caused us to be in this situation now. I can see all the details in our path to the bottom of the pit. Yes, I do have responsibility in this mess, and yes I wasn't patient, cooperative and receptive to his trying to help. I sat down in my depression and blamed him.. don't get me wrong, he does have a lot to do with my being depressed... i'm not exonerating him, but I also realized I could have handled things differently. However, i will gain nothing if I come out of the depression by the time he comes back, and he's still unwilling or unable to see he also had a hand in getting us where we are right now. This part I do not know how deal with... how do I split myself between fixing me while I hope of reconciling, but at the same time preparing myself to face the definite end of the marriage should he continue to put all the blame exclusively on me?

SD
I have yet to find the part in MB where you are to assign blame. The beauty of MB is that you spend far more time determining what you each should be doing and little to no time spent on what you did in the past.

So waiting for him to have some epiphany about what you feel he did wrong may actually be counter productive to rebuilding your marriage.

In a nutshell, the program is meet needs, avoid love busters and protect the marriage. There isn't a dredge up the past and assign blame portion of the MB plan.
No, I'm not talking about him taking blame... in a nutshell this is what i see happened:

He is very guarded with his feelings... doesn't handle strong emotions well (positive or negative). He puts up a wall. I expected that as the relationship developed and he felt more at ease, his defenses would begin to drop. They did, but I failed to see the progress and kept trying to find out where he was in the process. He became increasingly defensive, and shut me out. I felt lonely and abandoned and became increasingly more depressed. I entered counseling and it made things worse for me (as it usually does in the beginning), he was further put off by so many strong emotions I was displaying and became more emotionally distant. Rinse and repeat.

It became so much, I was hell bent on making him see how he had shut me out and that I was trying to reach out to him. This drove him nuts... sounded to him as nagging. We finally had pretty bad AO's, he felt the only way to stop this madness was to leave. I told him I would have none of it... if he left, we were done. Enter the session with Dr Harley. Nothing much happened, finally I felt it was up to me to say what he couldn't and asked what he wanted... He said he wanted us to work, but he had lost faith in the possibility of it happening and expressed he felt the best thing was for us to go our separate ways. I told him to leave. I've regretted that conversation ever since.

He's now living about 3 blocks from here. Took most of his stuff out of our home. He insists he loves me, but sees no hope for us. He tells his friend he's going to see what happens when he comes back from his country.

I guess the "epiphany" i wish he would have is to see how his shutting me out made me feel. He seems to still think the major hurdle to us being able to fix our marriage is my depression, which it very well could be! But what happens if while he's away I begin to get back to normal... heck even if I achieve it. Then he comes back and seeing that I'm no longer in the depths of despair wants to reconcile and come back home, only to begin shutting me out again? That's basically what I see I'm up against now...

SD
Originally Posted by SadnDepressed
I guess the "epiphany" i wish he would have is to see how his shutting me out made me feel. He seems to still think the major hurdle to us being able to fix our marriage is my depression, which it very well could be! But what happens if while he's away I begin to get back to normal... heck even if I achieve it. Then he comes back and seeing that I'm no longer in the depths of despair wants to reconcile and come back home, only to begin shutting me out again? That's basically what I see I'm up against now...

SD

Cross that bridge when you get to it.

Seriously. I'm not saying keep your head in the sand. But your focus seems very external. You make passing references to your contribution, but go back with laser like focus on what you think he is doing wrong.

Who would want to be part of that?

MB teaches that we are to complain, as long as it's done properly. But what one is not to do is to be critical. For example, if you come across as critical as to his emotional openness, what is his incentive to be more open? More criticism will not create more openness.

I like to term what Dr Harley teaches as attacking problems, not people. Complaining is attacking the problem. I.E. we don't talk enough. I would like to talk more. Those are complaints. Criticisms are phrased as, "You are not open" "he is not emotional" or whatever.

It's subtle, but important. I see a lot of criticism in your writing which may come across as attacking him.

In no way am I suggesting he has it all right. What I'm suggesting is that to accomplish your goals, you have to ensure that you are complaining, but not being critical. If I understand, complaints are good and necessary for a healthy relationship, but criticism will destroy romantic love.

Showing my work: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8111_quit.html

In this series of letters on the topic of when to call it quits, Dr Harley describes in a letter L.R. the progression.

First one complains. If that doesn't work, they move to criticism, which Dr Harley describes as follows

Originally Posted by Dr Harley
A criticism adds demands, disrespect, and/or anger to the complaint. The message of an unmet emotional need is buried under layers of abuse. Instead of creating a cooperative partner, it creates an adversary.

What follows is emotional withdrawal, separate lives, and little or no romantic love between the spouses.

So complain, but don't criticize. Work on your side of the street. If depression is a problem, then address it. It does little good to focus on how he may or may not respond when you have work to do on your side of the ledger.
Yes, you are right. I am very critical and hard... even on myself. This is one of his complaints. I tried to change the way I expressed myself... you know, the whole using "I" statements, but he would get defensive just the same. For instance, if I said "I feel xyz when you do abc" he would jump up and say that I was calling him whatever xyz happened to be. Then we'd get stuck on trying to separate my perception from his, trying to make him see I wasn't trying to call him xyz, but rather that his action was xyz... increasing frustration, increasing disappointment, we never resolved the issue.

Next issue came up, rinse and repeat of before. Until we had a huge pile of issues to untangle, but could never seem to do it successfully.

This dynamic is why he doesn't like talking with me... because it becomes a never ending circle. The issue wasn't that we didn't talk enough... god knows we did! It was that we could never accomplish much by talking, and he always said he felt worse after a discussion. We didn't know how to do it right...

I tried to be less critical, maybe I didn't do enough? Maybe I didn't do it right? Too little too late?

Thanks for pointing this out...

SD
Or maybe he isn't marriage material. It takes two. You have to complain. He has to be willing to address complaints.

You could always ask for how you can deliver complaints in such a fashion where he doesn't feel attacked, but does understand that things he does impact you.

Ultimately, you only have control of your side of the street and even if you clean up what is under your control there is no guarantee he will adequately address his issues.

But you have to focus on your part until it's obvious how he will consistently respond.
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
Z, how about an update on your thread?


Sure thing, NED wink
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