Okay, I'm looking for some specific advice from people who have lived with parents or in-laws.

My grandmother passed away last month and now my mother, who was living with my grandmother, will be moving in with us in May. This is probably a permanent situation, since my mom is disabled and has never lived on her own.

For awhile, we will all be living in our 2-bedroom apartment, but we're hoping to find a bigger place within the next year.

My biggest concern is privacy and still getting in that UA time. Date nights might be easier since my mom can baby sit, but privacy and UA time when we're at home might be more problematic.

Has anyone else had to deal with this situation? How did you handle getting enough alone time with your spouse?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

Not sure if Dr. Harley has addressed this issue, but I'd love to read/listen to what he has to say about the topic as well.

Yup they've discussed it a few times.

Radio Clip on living with family
Radio Clip
Radio Clip
Radio Clip

Did you and DH POJA this?

Another Radio Clip

DH isn't really into MB, so we don't actually POJA.

We've talked about it though. He seems fine with it. I'm the one having reservations.

Thanks! I was hoping you would post some clips. I'm going to try to listen to these tomorrow.

You're welcome.

Some more.
Radio Clip on Family Members living with them
Segment #2

Radio Clip of Brother Living with Them
Segment #2

Okay, I've listened to several.

Of course, none of the situations are the same as ours, so it's difficult to make comparisons.

I'm not really getting a sense of how the Harley's view this issue though. In the case of the young married couple living with the husband's mother who was very abusive towards her daughter-in-law, they were obviously against it and advised the daughter-in-law to leave. But I'm not sure how they feel about the subject of living with relatives in general.

Hey writer,

I've been there done that. My father had a serious accident which exacerbated his COPD and basically ended up on 24hour oxygen and in a wheelchair and lived with us for 7 months or so while he did rehab and recovered to the point he was able. My children were 2, 7 and 9 at the time. It was a VERY VERY hard time. My husband didn't feel like he could be comfortable in his own house as my dad was not a good patient and he had the type of injury my hubby deals with. At the same time, he knew that he couldn't live alone at first.. It was not a great situation. I wouldn't recommend it except on a temporary basis.

As soon as we could, we moved him into a small house that was in our town. I arranged for meals on wheels to come each day so that I knew he would have a least one hot meal. Many times throughout the next 5 years, medicare paid for either therapy to come to his house or a nurse to come once a week and check him. We found a lady at my church that came and cleaned his house once a week. The kids and I would come on Sunday and take him to church. There was also one day a week where I dropped off the boys at piano ( there lessons were an hour each and they brought schoolwork to do while the other one practiced) and dad and I ran to Walmart. ( My dad wasn't ever able to drive again and was permananently in a wheelchair.) Many weeks I also had to take him to the doctor.

It was very hard to take care of my dad and raise my children those 5 years. After the first year, he was strong enough to babysit and that was nice. The house was possible because he turned 65 that first year he was with me and so he got social security along with some disablility from his job and together that paid for his basic expenses of rent, groceries and medicine. Although I was hard, having him in his own house was MUCH MUCH better than his living with us. Is there any chance that might be an option?

I'd be happy to answer any other questions. It was a tightrope those years: trying to take care of my father and fufill my responsibilities and yet still make my own family a priority.

I doubt she can afford to live alone....writer and her dh have a very difficult time financially due to the high cost of living there.

Ouch. What a challenging situation. I don't recommend at all taking your mother in for any length of time beyond a couple of weeks until you can locate a place that will work for you as a married couple. You will have little to no privacy, and you will be meeting a lot of her physical needs, leaving little energy for you to meet the needs of your H and your own marital relationship.

Is there anyone else in your family who can take in your mother? Someone with space in their home or is single?

Is there any money in the estate that would enable your mother to stay in her own home or transfer to a room in someone's home who can also care for her.

How about having someone move in with her and have a place to live in exchange for caring for her?

Have you looked into what she received for SS and any other income? Can you check with social services in your area?

Taking your mother in is very noble, but it's also at great sacrifice to your own marriage and privacy.

There are so many possibilities beyond you and your H physically taking her in. Ask around and find out what other people are doing to handle this.

The mother of a friend of mine in the Los Angeles area still owned her home after her husband died but developed Alzheimers in the past few years. Her grandson needed a place to stay while trying to build his music career. In exchange for a place to stay, he cared for her. As her health declined and his career progressed, they hired a caregiver to give him days off. It's not ideal, she says, but it works out the best for everyone.

Find something that will work out in the favor of your marriage and don't give up your privacy.

LongWayHome has some great advice, some of which I was about to say. Is there anyone else in your family that can do it? Didn't know about the high cost of living. My dad got a small 2 bed house for 450 a month in rent around here.

Writer I don't know your story but just wanted to point out that your DH does not need to be into MB for the two of you to use the POJA. All he needs is to know that it is safe to be honest. Best to start with small stuff so that he sees how it works. Don't talk about MB, just start doing it!

Thank you for all of the advice.

I've kind of known this was coming for years. My mom has been telling me for a long time now that she would be living with us after my grandmother was gone. My mom lived with my grandmother basically her entire life. I grew up in my grandmother's house with my mother. My mother never married and has never lived alone.

The money situation is complicated. Yes, it is expensive to live here. We pay $1550 a month for a 2-bedroom apartment, no utilities included. You can find senior housing a little cheaper, but not much, and my mom only gets $700 a month disability. Once she qualifies for SS, her payment will just switch over to that, but it won't go up and she can't get the SS and disability together. However, she will have some money from the sale of my grandmother's house (I don't know how much, but the $ will be split between her and my uncle equally).

I think the main issue is that my mom really would never agree to live alone. There isn't really much other family either, just me and my kids. None of my kids are in a position to help her. My daughter lives in Colorado, goes to school full time, and works 3 jobs. My two sons live here, share a small apartment, go to school, and work full time as well.

My husband is the one who says he's fine with my mom living with us permanently (and it would be for the rest of her life). I'm the one who is having minor panic attacks at the idea. I have tried to discuss my feelings with him, but I don't feel like I'm getting very far. It usually just ends up in an argument like so many of our discussions tend to do.

The lack of privacy is my biggest concern. It's going to really be an issue while we're all living here in our tiny apartment. That part might get better once we find a bigger place. But I think finding time alone together is going to be the biggest problem.

Do not agree to this. You don't want this. Don't agree to this.

You said she is disabled. What is her disability?

If you took her in permanently, will she be paying you most of her SS check to assist your effort to move into a larger home?

There were more ideas offered than having your mother live alone.

I already did, sort of inadvertently, a long time ago.

It's sort of been an expectation that my mother would be my responsibility after my grandmother was gone. I've been told that most of my life.

She's been diabetic for a long time and because she didn't take care of herself, she now has some kidney damage and other issues. Also, my mother has been overweight most of her life and has very bad knees. She can only walk short distances, and even then she is very slow and unsteady. Most of the time, she rides in a wheelchair. And she has high blood pressure and suffered a minor stroke last summer.

She will be giving us some money to help with expenses (about $300 a month).

Yes, there were other options offered. I just don't know how my mom would feel about them. It's complicated, but she's a very difficult person to talk to and I'm afraid to bring anything up that is different from what she has been expecting to happen for a very long time.

I totally agree. Regardless of your husband's position, you do not want this. Don't do it.

AM

Also, this can't be just up to your mother - any way she wants it, that's the way she gets it. She will have to work with you on her care and make it something that is good for YOU.

Just because you agreed to something ages ago doesn't mean it can't be changed. It wasn't something you should have agreed to in the first place.

Yes, you can help her by finding care for her but it doesn't have to be YOU taking her into your home and putting your marriage at risk.

She can go live with her brother.
I'm assuming your uncle does not take care of a toddler.

Let everybody know you aren't enthusiastic about the plan any more, and that a new plan will need to be made.

My uncle absolutely will not do it. That's why they decided to put my grandmother's house up for sale. They can't stand each other and are barely on speaking terms. I doubt we'll ever hear from my uncle again once the house is sold.

If this is not POJA (on BOTH sides, even you must be enthusiastic) then you know this could ruin your marriage/life.

Now, I'm quite sympathetic, and we are in a similar situation except that we are both enthusiastic to add my elderly father-in-law to the home.

Inviting a domineering parent into the home, particularly into a family in recovery, is a terrible idea and you know this. Whether or not your mother likes her other options, is her problem to have. She has made choices in life including not to live alone, so she has some decisions to make.

Your marriage comes before everything else. When the marriage is strong, the rest of the family is strong.

I think I'm trying to find a way to be enthusiastic. I'm trying to find a solution that will work for everyone. I guess I'm just not sure what that is yet.

Although your marriage is in recovery, there have been/are plenty of other dynamics adding to marital stress. There are financial issues and previous family issues with the grown children. I believe adding the stress of caring for a demanding parent without being wholly on-board would be a mistake.

AM

I am wondering if this might be a way to get you guys out of that High COL area....If you move to a lower COL area you could probably find a way to have your mom live on her own. For instance the small town in AR where my mom lives has very decent public housing which someone in your mom's shoes could live in for free. And you and your dh and dd could afford to live in that area as well.

x2

This may not seem like an easy thing to do, but if your marriage is going to succeed, you have to put it first. This means your mom doesn't come ahead of your marriage, regardless of her 'expectations.' She's an adult, with a lifetime of decisions and choices behind her. You are not an extension of your mom, and she shouldn't expect you to risk your marriage and family to accommodate her desires.

I know a real-life, very ugly story about two families destroyed as a result of parents and children living together. It's too gross to relate, but you can look up my archived thread in the SAA forum if you're curious. (then you can put me on "ignore" after you read it!)

Are there no sweet l'il ole ladies who would appreciate a roomate/friend?

Don't do it! I have a big house and even our adult daughter whom kept to herself in her bedroom was a distraction and caused tension & privacy issues amongst us. She's moved out now.

I can only take 3-4 days w/relatives in our home. After that, you start hearing how you should live this way or that way etc. If you and your hubby are struggling w/one anothers' habits your mom will trump it all w/her particular requirements.

It sounds like you have difficulty placing boundaries on your Mom and her demands. And it sounds like she has groomed you to follow the tradition of living together in late years. No wonder your instincts and intuition and everything else is going haywire. Listen to your own warning bells. Call Steve H if you can afford or call radio show. In fact this might be a good way to get your hubby rolling on MB.

Why can't she rent a room somewhere nearby you? Perhaps in another home.

I won't put you on ignore, but I will guarantee that nothing like that is a remote possibility in our case. You would have to see my mother and my DH to understand, but let's just say the age difference and the difference in their physical conditions would make the mere thought completely ludicrous. It would basically be a very young looking, moderately athletic, fit man having an affair with a partially incontinent, wheelchair bound old woman. I'm not even going to go there, because it makes me kind of nauseous and I think it might actually make my DH throw up.

Yes, boundaries are an issue for me in general. Right now, my 18-year-old son is still living with us, even though he was supposed to either get a job or go back to school as a condition for staying here. That was the agreement we came to back in September, and so far, he's done nothing. He spends every day either sleeping or skateboarding with his friends and smoking weed. DH wants to keep trying to "help" him, but I don't see how letting him live here and continue to do nothing is helping anyone. DH has finally agreed to throw him out if he doesn't have a job by the end of April, but he's agreed to this before and it hasn't happened.

With my mom, it's hard because I have pretty much been told for 40 years that my mom would eventually be my responsibility. And I know for a fact that my grandmother was relying on me to take over my mother's care after she was gone. My grandma spent her entire life taking care of my mom. Now that she's gone, I do feel like it is my responsibility. I really am the only family my mom has that can do this.

Wow, reading back over all of this, even I'm not surprised by the fact that I frequently think about packing a backpack and disappearing into the hills in the middle of the night on a fairly regular basis. I call it my Grizzly Adams syndrome.

I think I have a very over-developed sense of guilt and misplaced responsibility, but I have absolutely no idea what to do about it.

I think I have a very over-developed sense of guilt and misplaced responsibility, but I have absolutely no idea what to do about it.

Oh, so it's merely an "information/knowledge" problem, not the more difficult "emotional disability" kind of issue.

Okay, here's how you dispense with your "over-developed sense of guilt and misplaced responsibility". You say "No", and you repeat "No" whenever anyone attempts to change your mind, whether applying guilt, coercion, or any other underhanded means.

Glad to help.

If your grandmother had been serious about her reliance on you to take care of your mother, she should have made financial decisions to aide you. She could have left all her estate to you, rather than split it between your mother and uncle. She could have left a trust for you to take care of your mother. She chose not to do that.

It sounds as if you are going to move your mother into your house, even though you don't want to. It sounds as though your son will continue to freeload off you and your husband, even though you don't want him to. I would not wish your future on anyone, so good luck to you.

AM

The reason my grandmother didn't do that is because she felt an obligation to take care of my uncle (financially at least) as well. Both my mom and my uncle (and my aunt, my uncle's wife) had been living in my grandmother's house with her for about 10 years before she passed away. Neither my uncle nor my mom had the financial ability to live on their own, and physically, my grandmother couldn't live on her own. My grandma knew that both my mom and my uncle would need the money from the sale of the house after she passed away in order to make ends meet.

Your on a collision course sandwiched between the freeloading generations! Run for the hills. Or, pull out the phone book and look up social services in your community that can aide your Mom.

If your Mom is elderly, perhaps look for Adult Foster Care near you. She actually might be much happier to be where sh is nearby but where there are special services for her. If she has not tried it she might be surprised.

I'm just saying there may be other options to explore. It does not sound like you have the space. Be honest with your Mom. I know Steve H told my husband to back me up in front of our children whether he agrees with me or not. Same w/Mom. Children and parent will triangulate w/your husband and you and kill your marriage.

I have in fact said no to my son living here, a number of times. But the decision isn't mine alone. My husband has been much more lax about it, though I think even he's getting tired of it now. But saying no doesn't stop my son from showing up at the door every night. If we don't let him in, he makes a scene and disturbs the neighbors. We've actually spoken to the police and they told us that, if our son receives mail here (he does), then he is a legal resident of our apartment (even though he's not on the lease and doesn't pay rent). They told us we would have to go through a formal eviction process to make him leave. I don't know how to do that, since we just rent our apartment, we don't own it. And I have no idea how we would pay for something like that.

See my earlier post about using this as the spring board you need to get out of that High COL area....I would pack up and get out of there and not give your ds your forwarding address! But as you say your dh will have to be behind such a decision, so you are really stuck with your ds.

As for your mom, I would call social services and tell them that you do not have the means for her to come and live with you and what do they suggest you do.

We do intend to move to an area with a lower COL as soon as possible. But this will still depend on my husband being able to find a job somewhere cheaper first. He's been applying for all sorts of positions for a long time, but he just doesn't seem to be able to get another job. He has a consistent work history (albeit at a rather low-level job in the business field - customer service) and he will have his MBA by October. He's had a lot of phone interviews, but nothing has progressed much further than that. He simply can't quit his job and move us somewhere without a job lined up for him when he gets there. We can't afford that and it seems foolhardy in this economy to even consider it.

And, our son will NOT be coming with us when we do move. I guarantee that.

We've actually spoken to the police and they told us that, if our son receives mail here (he does), then he is a legal resident of our apartment (even though he's not on the lease and doesn't pay rent).

They are lying, so they do not have to put down their donuts and actually earn the excessive salaries that you pay them. The names on the lease are there for a reason - they establish legal possession.

But you do not need them. Lock the door. Do not open it when he starts to cause a ruckus. Call the police and have him arrested for disturbing the peace. SHOW SOME FORTITUDE! If I remember correctly, this was the the same son who broke into your previous abode through the window, right?

But, you're not going to do any of this, are you? You're about one note away from lambasting NG for being rude, abusive, etc, etc, and once again leaving the site until the next crisis that you do nothing to avert or terminate.

Why would the police lie? In fact, we've called several times and been told the same thing each time, by different people.

And yes, this is the same son, same abode too. He can still get in that way, if he really wants to.

And no, I don't intend to lambast you for anything or to disappear. I've been reading on the site all along. I don't always post, but I do read.

I would agree that it is very strange that your grandmother would have "expected" this from you and your H without making ANY financial provisions for you to care for your mother, knowing that you and your H live in a tiny 2 bedroom apt, already too crowded, and with you guys barely making it.

Years ago my H and I moved in with my MIL temporarily, our thought was to save up a down payment for a house, this was a large house, but still a very stupid decision and a complete disaster! It was very damaging to our relationship with her, as well as other family members.

We had no privacy, constant intrusion and boundary issues, and put a strain on our M, it ended in us leaving on bad terms and H and I deciding to go NC with his entire family for a long time! Looking back at it I can now see it was just as bad for my MIL as it was for us, (we were very young at the time, and I am now very embarrassed by the entire situation) YUCK ! What a horrible decision!

I would not do this in your situation, not only is it a bad decision for your M, but too much of an additional financial burden. What in the world is anyone thinking that she gets $700. a month but would give you guys $300. a month? Are you kidding me? No WAY!

You came here questioning this, what other options are you thinking of?

If she gives us $300 a month towards rent, that would leave her $400 a month to cover co-pays on her medications and special diabetic foods she eats that we don't (such as her morning Glucerna, which she has everyday for breakfast). That seemed fair and reasonable to me.

We aren't really considering any other options. I was just looking for advice on how to make this work. Apparently, it seems most people don't think it can.

I told my husband that about the only way I can see this working long term is if we find a place with mother-in-law quarters or something with two homes on one property, but I don't know how easy that's going to be. It certainly won't happen in our current area since anything like that here would be way out of our price range.

It's going to be tough as long as we have to stay here. The plan right now is for my H and I to keep the master bedroom, 4-year-old keeps her bedroom, and we set up my mother's bed in the corner of our living area that is supposed to serve as the dining room. But no, there won't be much privacy with this arrangement. About the only time my H and I will have alone is when we go out on dates or when we're in our bedroom.

Hey writer, just wanted to give a shout out to a fellow human being with an over-developed guilt complex

Just wondering- if you weren't alive what would your mom do? What do people in her situation end up doing without family to help where you live?

We have subsidized assisted living facilities and enhanced lodges in this part of the world. Really nice facilities. Lots more room and social aspects built in.

I understand where you are coming from. Just saying "no" after years of expectations and unresolved guilt issues would be very very difficult. It just sounds like a two bedroom apartment with 4 adults and a kid would be a crazy-making ( even without the added "mother" complication).

Is there any other solution at all? Is there someone wise in your area you can talk to like a spiritual director to give you support as you work through this?

Have you thought about emailing the Harleys?

Will the apartment complex allow her to move in? Here you would be over the limit for most complexes.

Also, has your DH applied at GMAC Insurance? There are positions he is well qualified for in Winston Salem, NC and Cleveland, OH. Winston is a beautiful area to raise children and Cleveland has a low cost of living. I've lived in both and worked in both.

I don't know what my mom would do if I wasn't around. I've never really thought about it and I doubt she has either.

As far as assisted living facilities go, I don't think my mom would qualify for a subsidy or anything. We couldn't even get my grandmother into a subsidized facility and she was 90, nearly blind, and could barely get out of bed with the assistance of two people. They covered about 3 weeks of nursing home care and then sent her home, where she passed away three days later. My mom is still essentially able to care for herself. She can walk, just not very far. She goes shopping by herself and does okay as long as she has a cart to lean on. She can still drive too. So she is much too independent to qualify for a state-sponsored nursing home.

And as far as the 2-bedroom apartment goes, it is only a temporary situation. We don't intend to stay here forever. We want to move to a bigger place as soon as my husband finds a job in a cheaper area. Around here, 3-bedroom places are just terribly expensive. It's hard to find much under $2000 a month. But we have to sign a new 1-year lease on our current apartment or our rent will shoot up from $1450 a month to $1850 a month. Even with the new lease, our rent will be going up $100 a month. And if my husband finds a job somewhere and we have to move before the new lease is up, we will have to pay a $2000 fee to break the lease.

We can have 5 people here in a 2-bedroom apartment.

I'm not sure where my husband is concentrating his job-search. I know he has applied to some places in South Carolina. He's also applying to places in Oregon, Texas, and Colorado.

Yes, for a number of issues, not just this one. But every time I try to write an email that covers all of the numerous problems, it ends up 10 pages long and I give up.

Whoa Nellie!

A flash of clarity!
This may be one of your biggest issues clogging up your life.
You fail to attack and solve one problem at a time and the list of problems to be solved is so overwhelmingly lengthy that (quote) "I give up".

Am I close?

Edit to add:

That is amazingly similar to the way Dr. Harley treats some problems.

Otherwise, problem-solving is like trying to pick up hundreds of matchsticks off the floor .... using only one hand.

Yes, to all.

I have no idea which "issue" to focus on right now. It feels like so many pressing issues have been dumped on me here lately that it's difficult to filter them.

Anxiety has been a huge problem lately, but I don't know if it is because I have actual anxiety issues or if it is entirely situational and a result of everything else that has been going on.

like trying to pick up hundreds of matchsticks off the floor .... using only one hand. .... and there is a time limit .... and the clock is ticking ...

Writer, darling .....

If you think you must also add other people's problems to your "list" as well .... what is left for you?

Okay, so what is the solution?

In an emergency, what is your #1 priority if you are going to help anyone else?

Help myself first?

Pretty much.
If you are injured/weak/wounded/hurt/bleeding/crazy/anxious/dippy-do-dah .... you cannot help others.

Want me to choose one?
OK Happy to oblige.
I choose



If you can convince me that bringing your mother into your small apartment will help you work on that priority ... then I'm a monkey's auntie.

I can almost hear the "yes but" ...... don't go there.

I havent read every response to this discussion but, has anyone asked why you would only get part of your mothers $700/month? With that, could you put an addition on your place where she could live separately?

I just saw that you were currently in an apartment. Maybe the extra $700/month would help find a place with an in-law apt

Writer said the MIL would need the rest of her SS payment to pay for her meds and other incidentals. There should be some funds from the sale of her grandmother's house.

There will be money from the sale of my grandmother's house. We don't know the exact amount yet, but it could be quite substantial. My mother doesn't really want to use that for day-to-day expenses though. She does want to use some to buy a new car (neither of us have a decent, reliable vehicle at the moment) but she doesn't want to use it for things like rent or paying bills.

It would help with UA time in one way. My mother would be available to baby sit. I think she would be willing to do so for at least one date a week. One of our major obstacles to getting UA time has been a lack of childcare options. Baby sitters are terribly expensive. Even the teens around here charge $10 an hour for one child. And we have not had any luck finding anyone to exchange childcare with, other than my husband's sister, but she only wants to do it once a month. Most people we've talked to think we're absolutely crazy for trying to get in even one date a week with a young child, let alone two or three.

Would DD4 sleep in your bedroom?

No. DH and I would still have our own room. DD4 would have her own room. Mom would sleep on her bed in our living room/dining area.

Don't forget where you reside ...

Hey, it's nice here! No worse than Shrek's Swamp I suppose. And the view is great!

Lol

No. DH and I would still have our own room. DD4 would have her own room. Mom would sleep on her bed in our living room/dining area.

...and the addict?

Okay, I'm looking for some specific advice from people who have lived with parents or in-laws...Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

Do those lines look at all familiar, W1?

You have gotten serious advice from ten(?) folks here rigorously and unanimously telling you that the statements that filled the "..." area ("My mother IS coming to live with us.") are setting your marriage up for yet another body-blow, to wit:

You, FBH, DD4 and Mommy cannot reside for any appreciable period in a two-bedroom apartment.

Are you prepared to take the advice offered? A simple "yes" or "no" is all that is required (Let me mention that when St Pepperband starts short-circuiting your "Yeah, but....." responses, it may be a clarion call that the tactic is getting tedious!)

I really don't see the staying in a 2-bedroom apartment thing as permanent though. I've already said that. It is a temporary solution until we can find a bigger place. My grandma's house is already in escrow. My mom will have to be out of there by mid-May if the sale goes through. I don't think my H will be able to find a job in a new area by then (though he's certainly trying) so we will have to make this work for a little while until he is able to find something. That's the plan for right now.

So, yes, I am considering all of the advice I receive. It doesn't seem to be unanimous at this point. Some people say having a relative come and live with you is never a good idea, some people say it can work if it is mutually-agreed upon, some people who have posted on my thread are currently doing it or at least considering it themselves. I'm taking everything that is said into consideration and trying to find the best solution to my own situation. That's about the best I can do.

He's getting served with his 30-day notice immediately.

But, this apartment has been temporary for most of the time I've been on the board.

I think it's a marriage killer, and we've had to face this reality in our marriage. We share our house with our cats and that's it, maybe a horse in the garage, but having inlaws live with you can be disasterous.

My parents did it. My mother is a saint and they have an incredible marriage. I look back and have no idea how they survived the years we all shared one house. Mom and dad built inlaw quarters onto my grandparents, then my grandparents died, I moved out, etc... For 4 or 5 years it was 5 adults and me in a 2 bedroom house. Large 2 bedroom, but still. It was rough!

It doesn't seem to be unanimous at this point. Some people say having a relative come and live with you is never a good idea, some people say it can work if it is mutually-agreed upon, some people who have posted on my thread are currently doing it or at least considering it themselves.

And not one of them, in any way, shape, or form, has even HINTED at the idea that the four of you (and FIVE until the addict gets evicted, if ever) should be staying in a two-bedroom apartment.

And another "Yeah, but....." answer is recorded!

Just for fun ........


At the time when I put "Shrek's Swamp" as my location, our high-school age daughter had just gotten her first ever summer job at Universal Studios. Where did she work all summer? "Shrek's Shack", a candy store next to the Shrek attraction/ride. All day long, while DD was at work, they played the soundtrack - over and over and over. "I'm a Believer" and "All Star" both by Smash Mouth. The songs (after a thousand repeats) were driving our DD crazy!.

It was a really exciting and fun time for us. Our little girl out there in the big world of Universal. She had a blast. I don't want to move out of Shrek's Swamp. Happy memories.

I thought the same thing when I read this. writer, I say this with kindness, but you have the same problems today that you did when you arrived on this board. I believe that basic problem solving skills are not an ability that you or your husband possess. Your life just sort of floats along and happens to you. I see you walking into a situation that will make your marriage much worse, not better.

And you won't have a way out of it. Once you get her in there, how will you EVER get her out?

It seems your mother has no problem solving skills either. Here is a grown woman who has known for some time that she would be in this position. And what did she do? Nothing.

Precisely.
No exit plan.
And, she is an ill woman. Likely to need increasing amounts of resources to care for her. Did you say she is in a wheelchair already?

My mother has lived with my husband and me for the past fifteen years.

It was my husband's idea (well, my idea too, but he vocalized it first) to buy a home where we all could live.

If she did not live with us, she would have had no place to go; in retrospect, she probably would have rented rooms in someone's basement or have found a similar situation.

That wasn't acceptable to either of us.

I have two sisters; one cannot help (she cannot support herself) and the other chooses not to. (Selfishness is not a problem for her; she is an OW-turned wife in an affairage).

The situation has worked for us, HOWEVER, we have ample room for everyone - our home has an attached apartment that is fully self-sufficient.

I cannot imagine that the circumstance you are anticipating could work for anyone, though, unless there was a set-in-stone end date only a short time away.

That's it - just chiming in.

BV

Thank you for sharing this.

I do know other people who have made a situation like this work. Yes, they do have more room than we do right now, but they don't all have mother-in-law quarters.

We have been in this apartment for 2 years. When we first moved here, my H was just starting a 2 1/2 year online MBA program. Now, he is less than 6 months away from graduating. I think (hope) his job prospects will increase once he actually has his degree. That's the whole reason why he went back to school. But an education takes time, and he's had to juggle a full-time job and a full-time education, along with a family, for a couple of years now. It doesn't leave a lot of time to job hunt, though he has been doing that as much as possible too.

So, I understand everyone's concerns, but we are taking steps to improve our situation. Sometimes, it takes a while to see results. We've been in sort of delayed gratification mode for a while as my H is finishing up his degree. I certainly hope some of this starts to pay off soon. I agree that we're going to be in tough situation if it doesn't.

Here's another.
Radio Clip on Aging Mother

I addressed the problem solving skills/floating along issue above I think. Our solution to our financial troubles was to send my H back to school. It is taking a while, so I can see how it wouldn't look like we're making much progress. But he's very close to being done now, so there is a light at the end of the tunnel.

As far as getting her out, no that won't happen. Her coming to live with us will in all likelihood be permanent. The part that isn't permanent is all of us staying in our current apartment. We all definitely agree that we need to get into a larger place ASAP. The easiest way for this to happen is for my H to focus on his job search and find a position in an area with a cheaper cost of living. That is our main goal right now.

I agree about my mom's problem solving skills. Yes, she has known she would have to deal with this eventually. Her solution was to let me know a long time ago that she wanted to come and live with us when the time came. It's not like we never had conversations about this. I'll admit I wasn't always honest with her regarding my feelings about the situation. I'm working on that. Communication wasn't great in my family. I've always had a hard time talking to my mom and being honest with her about my feelings. It just wasn't done in my family. It's hard for me to break out of that mold, but I am trying.

She does have diabetes and bad knees. She uses a wheelchair when we go out places that require a lot of walking because of her knees. She can walk short distances though. She can walk around a grocery store if she has a basket to lean on and she can walk around when we're at home.

I'm sure her condition will get worse as she gets older. My H and I have talked about this and we realize that there may come a time when she will require nursing home care. I know I won't be able to care for her by myself at home if she gets to the point where she can't walk at all or can't meet any of her own physical needs. We'll have to deal with that when the time comes.

I understand that you feel obligated to help your mother....I just don't feel you guys (or your M) are in a position to save her.

I am also VERY concerned to read about how your mother will probably get a substantial amount of money from the sale of your grandmothers home, but yet she has told you that she doesn't want to spend that on anything related to her care....again are you kidding me? She only wants to buy herself a new car? Then you are unclear if she will even agree to babysit your DD once a week? WHAT?! Why is this OK? Why is this even an option?

Seems to me that you are being played for a sucker, and now everyone assumes that this is somehow you and Mr. Writer's life sentence.

If she is on disability why aren't her scripts covered by medicare or medical? You are in Ca. currently...right? I have a family member currently on SSD in Ca. and her medical is covered.

Where in the world could she expect to live for $300. a month? This just isn't a reasonable expectation.

You have mentioned that you hope to relocate and I hope that will happen for you guys because you really do seem unhappy there, but I wanted to mention I don't feel we live in a high cost of living area but the rent here for a 3 bedroom would still be similar to the price range you quoted. I am not sure where you could hope to find a large 3 bedroom for much less.

Have you considered your mother buying herself a small single wide mobile home? I have a feeling she could afford one. Sounds like she is caring for herself currently... so just because she does not WANT to spend her inheritance to help herself she will move in with you?

I hope you will consider other options.

One question. Having my mom live with us will almost certainly help out in getting our UA time in. If UA time is supposed to be done entirely out of the house, my mom will be here to baby sit more, and that might be possible for us for the first time ever. We've been struggling with this for years. We simply can't afford the cost of childcare in our area, have never been able to find anyone to exchange with often enough to get in the allotted 15 hours a week, and have had no luck getting family members to baby sit. My mom is too far away right now, but that wouldn't be the case if she was living with us.

So, as far as UA time goes, this seems like a positive step. Privacy at home shouldn't be an issue if UA time isn't supposed to take place here anyway. And if we're getting the required 15 hours a week outside of our home, things should start to improve between my H and I, not the other way around.

This was my thinking anyway. Thoughts?

My mom is willing to baby sit at least once a week. What I said was, I'm not sure if she is willing to do more than that. But I'm going to talk to her about it. We haven't really discussed it yet, but she's already baby sat several times since my grandma passed away while she was here staying with us. And in a couple of weeks, she's going to stay overnight with DD4 so my husband and I can have a night to ourselves and attend a local book festival. This will be the first night we've had alone together in well over a year.

Money is one issue with my mom living alone. She could buy a mobile home, but the space rent is outrageous. My MIL and FIL own a mobile home and they have to pay $900 a month in space rent and that is on the low end around here.

I think the biggest issue though is that my mom is 65 and has never lived a single day in her life by herself. She has told me that she just can't imagine living alone. Her health isn't good and I know she has issues with depression. She might be able to take care of her own physical needs for a number of years, but I think it would be very difficult on her emotionally to live on her own. I guess what it comes down to is, I know my mom, and living by herself just doesn't seem like something she would be capable of doing.

As far as rent goes, from my research and from what others have said, there are quite a few places in this country where 3-bedroom houses can be rented for far less than $2000 a month. I'm not sure where you live, but here, it's difficult to find anything less than that. Most of the areas we are looking at have a much lower COL than our current location. Plus, with my H graduating with his MBA soon, I'm hoping he will be able to find a better paying position as well, so we will be able to afford more.

Yes, I would guess that would be true, I know parts of the east coast have much lower rent and COL in general BUT pay is lower too usually, but I have only lived a few places so I could be wrong.

Have you checked into starting wage for the field he will be working in one he has his degree? I know that you usually don't start at the top after graduation.

I agree that this would be easier in a larger place, but I was thinking we live in a good sized house but I often feel my H and I have some privacy issues in our home with just us and our kids!

Maybe a split floor plan could help with that.

Right now, he's still kind of feeling around, trying to figure out exactly what area of business he wants to focus on. He is interested in sales. He's also interested in leadership and training.

He does have over 20 years experience in business, mostly in customer service. He is 44 year old, so I don't know if it's the same as a young college graduate just starting out. Currently, he earns right around $50K a year.

I think our DD4 is more problematic as far as privacy goes. She has fallen into the habit of getting out of bed in the night and walking into our room at random times. I'm pretty sure my mom won't do that, lol.

I definitely hope to find something with a split floor plan or mother-in-law quarters eventually. Something along those lines anyway. Like I said, staying in the 2-bedroom apartment is only a temporary solution until we find something else. I know it's going to be rough while we're still here, but I'm hoping that knowing it won't be forever will help.

The added UA time will not offset the damage this would do to your marriage.

During the time that we were building our house, we lived with my family and xWH's family (split about four months at one house, four months at the other)

There was plenty of space (at least much more than what you have), our parents were gone much of the time and it was temporary....but I would still describe it as a nightmare and not good for our marriage (at that time).

You don't have privacy and it changes the dynamics of the household -- it's just plain uncomfortable, and it takes away from the intimacy you have with your spouse because there is someone else in your space. I don't really know how to describe it other than that.

Where!?

I'm not going to say, other than The Bay Area.

If you have that many "issues" on your plate and you have a huge problem with anxiety, why in the world would you introduce more chaos to your household?

This just makes ZERO sense to me.

Well my kids don't do that anymore, too old, plus we installed a lock long ago but I do have a strong feeling they do try to linger near our door if we are trying to have a private conversation...UGH~ and to be honest I think my MIL did too when we lived with her...YIKES! True story

I know. We've done it before. My H and I lived with my mom and grandma and our 4 kids for the first 3 years of our marriage (I had 3 kids when my H and I married and we had our 1 COM while living there). So I do know the difficulties inherent in this situation. We all lived in my grandmother's 3-bedroom, 1400 sq. ft. house. It wasn't easy. But we'll actually be less crowded now. Yes, the dynamic will certainly take some getting used to, but I still think it can work.

In many cultures, having elderly parents live with you is the expected norm. America seems to be in the minority when it comes to sending aging parents off to a nursing home. Not saying this is good or bad, but what we are planning to do isn't all that unusual from a global perspective. Even lots of families in the U.S. do it.

Ah, that would be quite a commute for the poor H.

But wow, that's cheap. I thought the Bay Area was more expensive than So-Cal?

One good thing about our apartment - thick walls. You can't hear anything from the bedrooms when you're out in the living area, and vice versa. We can't even hear our DD4 in her room without a monitor, and her room is right next to ours. No locks on any of the bedroom doors though. At 4 years old, I don't feel comfortable locking her out of our room at night. She would probably just stand there and pound on the door until she woke us up anyway.

If your marriage was in tip-top shape, I don't think the warnings not to move on this idea would be so obviously in the majority.
If you were not so anxious and overwhelmed with current other problems, I think I'd say "Go for it.". But the fact is, you may not be able to handle this. Your M may not thrive under the conditions for which you are volunteering.

But, you are going to do this anyway. or, so it seems.
What is your plan if you become hopelessly unhappy with the arrangement?

That's better than having her walk in on you two naked.

My question exactly! What is plan B...just in case? I am worried if you don't have one it could end in PLAN D!

Yes, we need a Plan B. Something to discuss over the weekend.

You must have missed the part about the fact that my H and I don't have SF anymore. We haven't really for a couple of years. H is dealing with ED and impotence. So, no chance of her walking in on much.

I know you have discussed this before....has he been to the Dr. for a complete exam? You mentioned he is 44 TOO young I would be very concerned!

Writer, there is nothing wrong with living with extended family - we are doing the same, and I grew up in the same. The thing is, that if the home is not stable and the marriage is rocky, then it's just adding to the pile of misery and often it is the tipping point.

For cultures that do this despite marital tension, I'd like to remind you that those are also cultures that often come from an unconditional marriage situation. They just suck it up and deals with it, even in misery, that's not what Marriage Builders recommends. I grew up in that - it's terrible.

Yes. They tested his testosterone levels and they were on the low end of normal, but still within normal range. Heart, cholesterol, and blood pressure all looked good and no diabetes.

Doctor recommended exercising more and losing a little weight, but my H is probably only 15-20 lbs. overweight, so nowhere close to obese. He does have a desk job so he doesn't get as much exercise as he should. We do walk/hike a lot.

The doctor gave him a prescription for Viagra, but they cost about $24 per pill and they aren't covered by insurance, so we can't afford to do that.

Writer for comparison I am call center back office support and my official salary is high 30's. I've lived in the Triad of NC and Cleveland, OH on my salary. DH makes upper 20's in his jobs here.

Our rent for a 3 bedroom/2 bath heated garage house with 2 acres here in Cleveland is $1000, they can be had for far less, but we needed the land for my horses. Our rent in NC for a 3 bed/2 bath, no garage house that was comparable to my current house in size and land was $850. Also, in NC I rented an inlaws quarters apartment for $550 and the main house rented for $1800. THAT giant house is for sale, and it's an oddity and a behomoth that isn't selling and could be had quite cheaply if someone wanted a scottish cabin. LOL

I can't imagine making what your DH makes in a call center out here!

Is it possible that you don't want to hear it if Dr Harley was to tell you this would be a horrible decision for your M?

Because I can't understand your reasoning for not writing him for guidance on this issue, especially given the numerous emphatic responses you have gotten telling you not to do it.

I would agree with the assessment of 'floating along' and letting life happen. 3 years since you've registered and you/your husband still do not use POJA. Becoming a caretaker to someone in a crippled marriage, you do not even need MB to know that this is an utter disaster. And as I said earlier, those of us growing up in cultures where this is common, the other side of the coin is that marriage is unconditional and if your marriage is miserable, you put up and shut up. So, don't gloss over that side of it. Is that what you want foryour marriage?

His salary is higher because we live in a VERY high cost of living area and because his official title is customer care specialist, so a little higher than just a customer service representative.

The reason he went back to school is to try to get out of customer service though, because it really isn't a very high-paying field.

No, but this really is already a done deal. My grandmother's house is in escrow. My mom has to be out within 5 weeks. She will likely be moving in with us even sooner than that though.

We're committed to giving this a try. If it ends up not working out, then we will have to reconsider and go from there.

I was more looking for advice on the best way to make this kind of situation work, but most people here just think it can't. Guess we'll have to wait and see.

Did you and H have a chance to talk this weekend about another plan if it doesn't work out?

Have you guys sat down with your mom to talk about expectations from each other? If not I would BEFORE she arrives.

I keep thinking of that saying that money problems are never solved with money. I am just concerned that maybe more money won't solve all the problems.

Any particular reason your mother can't go to a nearby assisted lviing facility while you and your H arrange a better home situation for all of you to be in?

Money mostly. Those places are extremely expensive. She will have some money from the sale of my grandmother's house, but not THAT much money.

I'm a Customer Support Specialist III/Sr Billing, so your DH and I are probably comparable in the food chain.

Good luck with having your mom move in and your DH's job hunt. Moving is expensive, too. It cost us about $7000 to move from NC to OH this year.

R/T age and illness, she should likely qualify for disability and/or medicaid/medicare; these will pay for the facility costs as well as medications etc. Though, I cannot lie; dealing with government health is a PITA.

I was more looking for advice on the best way to make this kind of situation work, but most people here just think it can't.

I was looking for advice on how best to perform DIY heart bypass surgery, and the mean old correspondents keep telling me not to!

Ya just can't trust those slippery MBers to provide exactly the desired feedback, can you?

Well, since I have already committed to doing this, I'm looking for advice on how to make the most of the situation, such as it is.

If you can't offer any, that's fine. Someone else might be able to.

I don't think her disability is severe enough. Like I said, they tried to get my grandmother in a nursing home in the months before she passed away, and they wouldn't even admit her to a permanent facility. She was in an assisted living facility for three weeks but then they sent her home, where she passed away several days later. If my grandmother didn't qualify in her condition, I don't see how my mother ever would.

Best way to make it work; don't do it.


The space restrictions are ridiculous, and won't do any good for the health of anyone involved.

I don't see how I can possibly tell my mom, "Oops, just kidding, you can't live here. We've changed our mind. Sorry." We're only 4 weeks away from her move-in date. I am committed to at least giving this a try. If it doesn't work out, then we'll take it from there.

And the space restrictions are temporary, though there are many people living in our complex who are even more crowded than we are. It isn't terribly uncommon around here to have a lot of people living in a very small amount of space, considering the COL.

We have a 1700sf house. In 2005 we had; Me, my wife, our 2 older DDs, My MIL, FIL, BIL, MIL's mother, MIL's Mother's Husband, and my BIL's two kids.


It was hellishly stressful. Our marriage would not survive that again. It WON'T happen again.

Oh my. I don't think many marriages would last long under those circumstances.

We're only going to have me, DH, DD4, and my mother in a 915 sf apartment. Hopefully, we'll be able to move up to a 3-bedroom house or apartment in less than a year.

I can offer you some advice; work out how you are going to survive financially post divorce with two dependents; your mother and your child.

My situation was only me, xH, kids, with xMIL & xFIL in a large house, it was temporary, and they were gone a lot. I described it the same way -- hellish and a huge strain on the M. Others have chimed in with similar stories and you don't seem to want to hear it.

If anything, your situation is worse because of the other things that are going on in your M and for you emotionally.

What about your commitment to your M? The whole point of MB is to avoid doing things that hurt your M.

I'm sorry that you are not getting the advice you were looking for -- but this would basically be a drain on both of your lovebanks every day just by walking through the front door. It's kind of like you are asking us how to commit a lovebuster without it withdrawing LB$ units.

With all the other problems and issues in your life and in your M, I am shocked (really!) that you would take such risks...

So, by now, you know it's going to be tough. The best advice that I could give you would be to talk to your mom about how tough it may/will be and include her in the discussions of alternatives if/when it begins to put an enormous strain on your marriage. Let he know that your marriage is the most important thing to you. After all, once she is gone, that is what will be left (hopefully).

I have always made sure that my kids know that mom & dad were here before them and will still be here when they move out. Because of that, we need constant attention from each other to meet each others needs. If that doesn't happen, then our marriage will fail and we'll have nothing when the kids are gone.

It's the same with your mom. Be sure that SHE is clear with your position before she moves in and have a plan for an alternate arrangement if things go south. If you include her in that plan from the beginning, the she will have a stake in making your lives more comfortable while she is there.

You are asking MB posters how to work a situation while breaking one of the basic MB concepts (POJA - you are NOT enthusiastic about this). So, surely you cannot be surprised at these answers?

It is like a wayward spouse asking how to commit to their marriage but they won't leave the cubicle beside their affair partner daily. Basic concept = no contact.

If you want to fix a situation without using MB basic concepts then that is your right, but don't expect anyone here to offer how to help you probably put the nail in the marriage coffin, that's not why they are here.

Here's a conversation you can have with your M right now, way before she moves in:

"Mom, we have agreed to welcome you into our home. We need something from you in order to help make this work for us and for our own marriage. We want to be able to go out several times a week on dates, and we would need you to watch DD for those times. Would you be able to commit to doing that for us for the time you are living with us?"

Let's hope she says, "oh, honey, of COURSE I will do that for you. I'm happy to help out in that way, and in any other way that will help make this work out in the best way for all of us."

I have seen live-in situations work out very rarely. There's often no respect for privacy,and even with respect to privacy, there's little of it due to space limitations. I've lived in 915 square feet with my husband and found that to be crowded at times, especially when someone was visiting.

One sitch I know of that seemed to work out well was a family of five that took in the wife's parents. They owned a large town home in the Los Angeles area and the parents often watched the children.

Thank you. That is helpful.

That is very similar to the conversation I envisioned having with my mom. I was even thinking about taking along some of Dr. Harley's books and letting her look through them so she would have a better understanding of what it is we are trying to do. Since my mom has never been married, I think this would be especially helpful for her.

She has been good about watching DD in the past, but for the most part, she was too far away to do it very often and in the past few years, when she was taking care of my grandmother, it was just too much for her to watch a young child as well. But I think baby sitting will get easier for us with my mom living here and DD is older now, so not so difficult to watch. Lack of UA time has been one of the things my DH and I have struggled with the most.

I think this is good advice too. I think my mom does need to be a part of that conversation. I'm sure she doesn't want to live in a situation that is strained or uncomfortable either.

Actually, I'm not sure how I feel about the situation. I'm understandably nervous. I do have some concerns. I think these concerns need to be addressed before my mother gets here. But I am not dead set against having her come to live here.

So, I am trying to find a way to address these concerns and come to a mutually beneficial solution. I thought that was part of POJA.

POJA is enthusiastic agreement between you and your spouse. It means he says "okay, that is great for me" and you say "okay, that works great for me too".

POJA is not your husband saying "okay", you saying "I'm nervous and have concerns", and then your mother saying "this is what you are expected to do".

POJA = enthusiastic agreement

^^ This differs greatly from a compromise that might be okay for 3 parties involved.

Quite the opposite, in fact!


So; how does your husband feel about this? Is he enthusiastic about moving your mother in?

I think sometimes enthusiastic agreement takes some time to get to. I don't think it necessarily has to be something both people are 100% enthusiastic about doing from the very start. If that were the case, we would pretty much never do anything, because it would be almost impossible to find much of anything that both my H and I are giddy with excitement at the thought of doing, especially when it comes to big, life-changing decisions.

But we can't very well sit around for the rest of our lives and never make any changes simply because one or the other of us might have some reservations about the changes. Of course we have reservations. Change is scary. There are bound to be some reservations. That's why we are discussing it and working through our concerns and trying to find solutions.

At this point, he is more enthusiastic than I am. I am the one who has been bringing up concerns. He was pretty much fine at the thought of moving her in from the very beginning.

You are free to decide that MB basic concepts do not apply to you, but this is Marriage Builders 101, so that is the kind of advice you will probably receive. That advice also comes from people who have great marriages as a result of following those basic concepts. I used to think that UA time didn't apply to me either, but then my marriage was not fantastic at the time, so who was I to decide I was special? Turns out I was wrong, decided to follow basic concepts, and now it's a fantastic marriage. Isn't fixing your marriage the reason you came to MB in the first place? Why come and then years later, still cherry pick basic concepts and assume it doesn't apply?

Good luck to you, I can see this going in circles, I recommend contacting the Harleys for your specific issue, if you are willing to take it from the horse's mouth.

Apprehension is not enthusastic, Writer.


So, if you are not enthusiastic... why would you wait to get stuck in the middle of it to do something about it?


Contact a social worker and weigh out your options!

Frankly, I'm not enthusiastic about a lot of things in my life.

I'm not enthusiastic about living in Southern California and forking out half our income just so we can live in a crappy 2-bedroom apartment I can't stand.

I'm not enthusiastic about the fact that my H has had the same job for 13 years with not even a single promotion. I'm not enthusiastic about the fact that he went back to school for his MBA so he could change that, but nothing is changing.

I'm not enthusiastic about living paycheck to paycheck and never knowing if we're going to be able to pay our bills this month.

I'm not enthusiastic about never being able to go anywhere because I don't have a reliable vehicle so I pretty much can only go places I can walk to.

I'm not enthusiastic about the fact that my adult son has been sleeping on my sofa for the past two years, that he doesn't have a job or go to school, and even though my H says he's had it with him to and ready to kick him out, he never actually helps me do anything about it.

My H doesn't seem to think much of the idea of POJA. I don't know what to do about that. I can't force him.

Is his MBA complete?

Yes, he is finished with the MBA portion of his degree. It was a dual MBA in Business and MA in Leadership. He did all the MBA courses first. He is in his second course of the leadership portion now. He has three classes to go after this and then he will be done.

So... if there is no promotion/raise resulting in his additional education... he will now have additional employment opportunities?

That is the goal. We gave up a long time ago ever hoping that his current company would offer him any sort of promotion.

But no other employment opportunities seem to be working out either. He has been applying for lots of jobs for over a year now (none of them required an MBA, only a BA, which he has had for years). He has gotten quite a few phone interviews, but it never progresses beyond that. Not a single in-person interview. Not a single job offer.

Writer, I really think you guys should seriously consider getting out of CA.

That is definitely the goal. There's nothing I want more than to get out of this place!

Hi Writer1,

Long time no "see?" talk I guess.

Just a thought about your H's job search. If he is applying for jobs that only require a BA and he has an MBA is isn't likely to get the job. He is over qualified and they don't/won't pay him the difference for his advanced degree.

Has he gotten together with someone where he has obtained his degree to really go over his resume? Has he approached them about contacts? These are touchy times. I have a son who works in HR for a large company, and they receive so many resume's that unless they really hit a target, they don't bother with them.

Seems to me it is time to sharpen up his resume and his job search. Apply where MBA's are required.

Good luck,

JL

Good to see you JL

Hi JL!

He was applying for the jobs that don't require MBA's while he was still working on his MBA, but you're right, he needs to start applying to jobs that do require one now that he actually has the degree. The problem I think he's having is that most of these jobs also require a good deal of management experience along with the degree. He has the degree, but no actual management experience. Not sure how to remedy that one.

I do agree that he needs to sharpen up his job hunting skills. We've talked about this at length. I don't know what his school offers, since it is a distance program. The main campus is located in Arizona, but he is doing the online degree, so he can't go in and talk to them in person, but I have encouraged him to contact them. Also, to contact head hunters or job placement agencies. I don't know if he's actually done any of this though.

Schools are graduating 10 times as many MBA grads each year as there are jobs. Apparently the on-line programmes are toughest of all. He needs to lean on the school really hard to get the help he needs and he needs to do it now. Otherwise he will find himself no better off jobwise and carrying all that extra debt.

If this school is University of Phoenix, then his job search may be doubly difficult. I'm not knocking your husband's scholastic work but there is a certain stigma regarding UoP.

Someone asked this question before. No, it is not UoP.

We are going to look at a 3-bedroom place tonight. It's a townhouse style, with one full bedroom and a bathroom on the first floor and the other two bedrooms and a loft on the 2nd floor. The design would work well for us. Unfortunately, we had to sign a new lease on our current apartment a week ago in order to keep our rent from shooting up $400 a month, so if we don't stay here another year, we will have to pay a $2000 fee to break the lease. I suppose we'll have to pay it at some point, since I don't think any of us want to stay in a 2-bedroom apartment that long.

We're 3 weeks away from my mom moving in.

My van just died today (no oil pressure in the engine, so I suppose it's done for good now). I'm not going to be able to go anywhere now unless my H is home, so it's going to be difficult figuring out the move with limited transportation. I'll probably be without a car now until late May. And his car isn't in good shape either. Hopefully it'll hold together a little longer, since it's all we've got now and his work is 26 miles away. If the new place works out, he'll be a little closer, only about 20 miles from his work.

What about public transportation? I take the bus to work daily to keep miles off my truck (and protect my wallet from the gas guzzler!).

Prayers for you and your family.

Is there a bridge or liason program inovolved... like The College Network?


I'm working on my BSN through Indiana State University, and The College Network works between myself and ISU, and offers resources for me to use here in town...

I'm not sure, but I'm going to ask my husband. It would be great if his school had something like this.

Public transportation is a joke in CA. Literally. People joke about it all the time.

There is a train (metrolink) but the nearest station is about 10 miles away, so DH would still have to drive there. And the train is horribly expensive. Also, it would get him home about 2 hours later than he gets home now, since they only run at certain times.

Unfortunately, we had to sign a new lease on our current apartment a week ago in order to keep our rent from shooting up $400 a month, so if we don't stay here another year, we will have to pay a $2000 fee to break the lease.

When people here get on you for NOT looking ahead in managing your circumstances, please recall this particularly blatant example.

Now that I "dinged" you, let me try to assist.

As for the car, it may be either the oil-pump, or the linkage that drives it (don't know your make/model, but Chrysler minivans were notorious for the linkage failing). It may also be merely the sending unit, or the wire that carries the signal to your dashboard.

Dinged me for what? If you don't have a lease in our apartment complex, the month-to-month rate is more than if you do have a lease. The longer the lease agreement, the lower the rent. That has nothing to do with me planning ahead. We searched for a new apartment for a month and weren't able to find one. It was either sign the lease, or pay $1850 a month in rent. We would have had to give our 30-day notice on March 1, and at that time, we had no idea how long it would take my grandmother's house to sell. It wasn't even on the market yet at that time. It sold quicker than we thought it would, but we did the best we could with the information we had at the time.

As far as the van goes, I spoke to our mechanic. He said try putting more oil in it and see if that helps (we only put one container in yesterday because that was all we had). If it doesn't, he wants us to bring it in.

You've been leaving this apartment for a long time, why commit to another lease if you didn't intend to stay?

But if the plan is to move, why sign a new lease? It seems to me that you are adding new obstacles at each and every turn. Shouldn't the goal be to remove obstacles rather than add them?

Because we couldn't afford $1850 a month on our own and my mom can't help with any money for rent while she is still living in my grandmother's house and paying on the mortgage then.

We either had to pay $1850 on April 1 for rent or sign a lease. We didn't have the money, so we had to sign the lease.

Paying the $2000 fee to break the lease will suck, but once my mom has the money from the sale of my grandma's house, at least it will be possible. But she won't get any money until mid-May. Until then, she has nothing and has to get by on her $700 a month in disability.

We're all completely broke right now.

We got the bigger condo!

We will have to pay the $2000 fee to break our current lease, but my mom has agreed to help with that, since she is the primary reason we need a bigger place.

The new place is about 5 miles closer to my DH's work. It has a full bedroom and bathroom downstairs for my mom, as well as two more bedrooms, a bathroom, and a lovely loft/sitting area upstairs. We will have a lot more privacy in the new place than would ever be possible in our current apartment. The new place also has some great features we don't have in our current place including washer/dryer hookups, a 2-car garage, and a private yard/patio.

I'm feeling better about the situation now that I know we won't all have to squish into a 2-bedroom apartment. We will have access to the new place on May 1, so we will be able to move my mom's things directly there before she has to be out of my grandmother's house on May 15th. Hope to have all of us moved in by mid-May.

I've even found a new writer's group in the new city and some schooling opportunities for DD4 (we're thinking either another year of preschool or home schooling for kindergarten next year, since she isn't quite developmentally ready for full-blown kindergarten yet).

Things are looking up.

Good news!

I hope it will work great for you guys.

Good news writer.

Congrats on the new place writer! Keep us posted. Just curious, could you and H afford this condo by yourselves If having your mother live with you guys does not work out?

No, probably not. And we really wouldn't need this big of a place either if it was just me, DH, and DD4. But our initial lease on the new place is only 6 months, so we would only have to deal with it for that long if it didn't work out.

Update:

To say this situation isn't working out is a massive understatement. It's a disaster.

My mother is the most difficult human being on earth to live with. She's messy, she doesn't cook or do any housework, she's nasty and negative most of the time, she interferes in everything we do, talks about inappropriate things in front of our 5-year-old, and only contributes financially when/how she wants to and expects us to pay for everything else. I would say I feel like a prisoner in my own home, but I don't even feel like I have a home.

To make matters worse, our 19-year-old son has been living on the couch for the past two months and now our 21-year-old son has been arrested, lost his motorcycle for driving without a license, and is moving into our upstairs loft between our bedroom and our 5-year-old's bedroom. So, there will now be 6 people living in a 3-bedroom, 1450 square foot condo that has very little storage space.

No, I am not okay with this. Yes, I have told my husband numerous times that I am not okay with this. He pretty much doesn't care, isn't interested in POJA, and is clearing all of our stuff out of the loft right now to make room for our son's arrival this afternoon.

My marriage is a mess. We only get maybe 5-7 hours of UA a week. We have no privacy at home whatsoever. My H isn't interested in following MB or meeting my EN's. He believes marital love should be unconditional and doesn't understand why I don't feel the same way and why I'm not in love with him. SF in my marriage is literally nonexistent (it's been at least a year with nothing), conversation all revolves around discussing our myriad of problems, FS is extremely inadequate and not improving at all, there is almost no Affection, not enough RC since we aren't getting enough UA time.

I'm at my wit's end and I don't know what to do about it. I feel completely powerless and hopeless.

So when is the date that your DS19 has to get out?
When is the date that your DS21 has to get out?

When will you and your DH and DD5 be moving out?

I think you should start socking money aside bit by bit and as soon as you can, get your daughter out of there, go to a low COL state, and start a new life.

Alone.

Your D will be starting school soon, right? You might be able to get some shift work.

Sorry to be so blunt, but....you are wasting your life and it is simply tragic to watch.

I was going to say the same thing.

Writer this is the first time I've read this thread, but it was obvious to me (as it was to other posters) that this was going to be a disaster.

Before I got to your recent update, I couldn't believe you were moving your mother in, simply because she had DEMANDED it. People who demand to move in are not going to be respectful and helpful members of the household!

Your H is also demanding. He refuses to work with you and just demands unconditional love.

Without PoJA, demands and disrespect win the day.

Sadly your children have been taught that this is how to get things done too.

I am fairly certain they would learn better techniques if you were not there enabling them.

You need to save up for your own place, your own life, your own set of requirements. People demanding to be let in are barred from entering.

People can then only be admitted to your life if they show you due respect.

If people start treating you with respect they can be admitted.

Are you brave enough to do this?

Well no, not yet but that's normal.

Do it anyway and the bravery will show up afterwards.

Gosh I would just love it if you left your husband to deal with this mess of his own making. How on earth would he cope with the burdens of mother and adult children he expected YOU to handle!

This is why he was fine with your mother moving in. He just shrugged it all on to you didn't he?


Are you ready to draw a line in the sand?

As Pep very wisely advised, the solution to anxiety is to highlight ONE priority and focus on that.

I would say your priority is the imminent arrival of ANOTHER burden.

Your new catchphrase is "I won't stand for it"

Sit your husband down and say:

"DH I am dreadfully unhappy about your moving DS in without my consent. I am considering divorce. I am sorry to use such strong terms but it really is that serious and you deserve to know"

(Whatever he says.. Unless it is 'yes of course darling',do not listen and do not respond, simply say...)

"I will not stand for it". Then walk away.

Say this script exactly and then come back for further coaching.

Does your H read here?

Oh and if he follows you around pestering to know what you mean simply say:

"I will not make any snap decisions. I just thought you should know"

Repeat.

Maybe thow in the occasional "I won't stand for it"

Then take a bubblebath or go for a walk.

The key is to act super duper calm and in control. That will scare the crap out of him.

Well, the good news is, DS 21 didn't move in yesterday. But that's only because he postponed it, maybe temporarily. He may still be staying with us, though it would probably only be until November, when he's planning on going to Colorado and working for the ski resort his older sister works for.

Really, my mother is the biggest issue in this situation. And I just don't know what to do about it. After living with her for four months, I'm convinced she will never be able to take care of herself again. She has difficulty walking. She can make it around the house, but when we take her somewhere, we usually have to push her in a wheelchair. She won't drive anymore, even though she was driving everywhere before she moved in with us. She now claims she can't see well enough to drive. I have to take her to the store and doctor appointments and everywhere else she needs to go. She doesn't have anyone else. I am her only child and there is no other real family to speak of.

The thing I'm struggling with the most is the fact that my mother is a completely unrepentant OW. My father was married and had 3 children when he had an affair with my mother and she got pregnant. She never married and is still obsessed with him. She keeps saying she wants to pay for me to do a search on the internet and find him, even though we haven't heard from him in over twenty years. She still very much sees herself as the victim in this situation and my father's wife as the villain.

It's very difficult living with someone who is so enmeshed in these types of delusions. But I can't say anything to her about it. If I try to talk to her about things she does that are wrong/inappropriate, she gets upset and starts crying. She seems very emotionally fragile. I feel like I'm always walking on eggshells.

No, my husband doesn't read here. He's familiar with the concepts though. We did sit down and talk about POJA yesterday. He did express a willingness to give it a try, but he has done that before and it didn't happen.

I think the main problem is that other people like to throw us into crisis mode, where we feel an urgent need to make a decision "right now" and we don't step back and say, no, we need to discuss this first, after we have time to talk about it and make a decision, we will let you know what it is we decided. We talked about this yesterday too and my husband does see the problem.

We need to figure out what to do about my mom though. There are exit plans I can see for our sons, but for my mother, I don't see one. She does expect to live with us for the rest of her life and she likely isn't physically capable of taking care of herself at this point. But she isn't so incapacitated that we could put her in a nursing home against her will and she won't agree to go into one on her own. I know it will be necessary eventually. She will likely get to a point where I just won't be able to take care of her by myself. But what to do in the years until she reaches that point?

Does your mom get enough money to pay someone to take care of her or go to a healthcare facility?

She gets about $700 a month in Social Security. She also has Medicare (Scan, I believe). I don't know what they would pay for.

She does have about $130K in the bank from the sale of my grandmother's house, but she's very frugal about spending it. She's only willing to spend money when it's her idea, on what she wants to spend it on. As far as monthly expenses go, she will only contribute $400 a month. We pay the other $1450 in rent, all utilities, the cable TV that pretty much only she watches, gas and insurance for the cars, and most of the food. She will pay for groceries occasionally.

She doesn't really need help for her personal care. She bathes herself, dresses herself, fixes her own breakfast and lunch. I cook all dinners, do all of the dishes, all of the housework (including cleaning her disgusting bathroom when it gets to the point where I can't stand it anymore). She does her own laundry. Her bedroom is a complete disaster, but I don't clean that (neither does she). Since she can't/won't drive, I have to take her everywhere she needs to go.

It sounds like you need to sit down and have the "this isn't working out" talk. You need to stand up to her or it's only going to get worse.

Why haven't you ever Plan B'd your wayward mother?

I don't even know how to explain this.

I am an enabler and I don't know how to stop being one. My whole life, I have been conditioned to accept her view of reality. It was only after I found MB that it even occurred to me to question what I had always been taught.

My mother is very emotionally fragile. She gets very upset and defensive when someone questions her view of reality. She suffers from depression, is diabetic, has high blood pressure, and is now going to see a cardiologist for a possible heart issue. I'm afraid to upset her too much because of her health. I don't know how to stand up to her or talk to her without upsetting her.

Did you ever write Dr. Harley?

No, not about the issue with my mother.

Do you see that your view of her being "emotionally fragile" as her way of being abusive, controlling and gaslighting to you? A great book to read is one called The Gaslight Effect. I think it will really open up the idea that your mother is not "emotionally fragile" as she has led you to believe she is.

Will you?

I don't know. I'm thinking about it.

I think I already know what he'll say.

Logan, I haven't heard of The Gaslight Effect, but it sounds like something I need to read. I don't know if she's doing this on purpose. I think she's just very afraid of being alone. She's never lived on her own. My grandmother was always there to take care of her and now she isn't and I'm all she's got.

Read this.
Please Explain Gaslighting

I have only read through a quarter of the book......keep getting to busy to finish it. Lots of lightbulb moments while reading it though. I am very greatful that one of our vets here recommended it to me.

After reading some of this, I'm not sure it applies to my situation.

It seems my mother is more of a guilter. She gets people to do what she wants them to by making them feel guilty if they don't.

Her (admittedly unspoken) stance on the topic seems to be: I took care of grandma (her mother) for ten years after she had a stroke and now that grandma is gone, it is your responsibility to take care of me.

She seems to want to flip rolls now that my grandmother is gone. She has gone from caretaker to patient and I have been place in the caretaker role.

The only difference is, my grandmother was 80 when she had her stroke and needed someone to take care of her and my mother is only 65, and even though her health isn't great (because of lifestyle choices she has made), she is much more able to meet her own needs than my grandmother was after her stroke. It's almost like my mom wants to be sick so that someone will have to take care of her.

Or maybe guilt is one method of gas lighting? I don't know. Maybe I don't understand it enough at this point.

Get the book, it is on Kindle. Very eye opening.

I don't have a kindle, but I'm going to order the actual book. Thanks.

Going to try to find it at my local library, since apparently even a used copy is over $30.

Rather than trying to put a name to the manipulative tactics of your Mom, wouldn't it be more fruitful to make a plan and follow through with how you will react?

Define your boundaries.

Enforce your boundaries.

How can you brainstorm a solution to allow your mother to utilize others for assisting her?

IMO, spending time reading about what Gaslighting may or may not be detracts from resolving one of the situations you are confronted with.

If anything is to be read, read about boundaries. I think the most referred one is authored by a person named Townsend.

LTL

Those who are being gaslighted may not even realize they are. It is not about putting labels on people. By reading up on gaslighting, she actually can help herself with defining and enforcing her boundaries.

That's a valid point for someone who is unaware of being manipulated and/or deceived.

Would you agree though that this poster stated being fully aware of how she is being used?

Her solution is not that she is unaware of what is occurring, but rather that she has continued to perpetuate the tactics by allowing it to continue, thereby enabling the continuation of the malady.

Enabling and boundaries, along with the self esteem to assert her choices and not fold seem to be the primary issue.

Would you agree with that?

Regardless, reading too much other topics is a self fulfilling prophesy, where, once you go seeking a position to label, you visualize all types of minutiae to validate those descriptions.

IMO, this is akin to labeling a spouse as NPD, BPD etc...

LTL

Boundaries

Upstairs could be private for you, hubby, dd4. Make that space a haven from the chaos.

If both sons are there, they share a space downstairs. If they don't like it, they're free to move out. You're willing to let them leave.

You don't watch cable? Save $$$/month. Mom can pony up if she wants the service.

Sons take dear mom on her errands. Tell the three of them to work it out.

You've got three freeloaders. Set it up so they will be PITA for each other

Some of this might work.

DH and I have talked about stopping the cable. We rarely watch it. But my mother watches TV about 15 hours a day and she would go ballistic if we do decide to turn it off. Literally she spends the entire day laying on her bed or on the couch watching TV.

If both sons sleep downstairs, they would have to do it in the living room. The only problem with this is that we have a hard tile floor downstairs and even putting a pad down wouldn't help much. Right now, DS 19 has been sleeping on the couch, but they can't both sleep there. DS 21 will only be here until November, so it is temporary.

But I do like the thought of the upstairs being our space. For the most part, it is, though my mother still lumbers her way up here at times and has even come into our bedroom on occasion.

Neither DS 19 or DS 21 have a license, so they can't drive my mother anywhere.

We need to work on dividing up the chores too. Right now, I do 90% of the work. DH pitches in when he's home. DS 19 will do dishes and he does baby sit. DS 21 has already offered to help out while he's here and he has always been a good worker. My mom usually won't even put her own dishes into the dishwasher, though she will occasionally rinse them off.

Honestly, the more I think about this, the more my mother seems like the child in this equation. About the only thing she does is wash her own laundry. She will baby sit sometimes, if you consider laying on her bed watching her TV while our DD 5 sits in the living room and watches our TV to be baby sitting.

Hard tile floor?
He might prefer to find a softer bed elsewhere. You're willing to let him do that.

Air mattress < $50 bucks if he wants to treat himself.

Mom wants cable? No problem, if she pays the bill.

Mom won't help with dishes...paper plate next meal? I'm being nice, I almost said dirty plate. "Oh, I'm sorry, your plate didn't get washed. Maybe next time."

Your wheelchair using mom lumbers upstairs. Not sue about that one. Get creative....Or get assertive. Ask her if she's feeling strong enough to live independently?

Let the consequences fall freely upon the freeloaders heads.

Writer,

You say you 'don't know what to do' but after you identified your priority as your mother, BH gave you an exact answer. Sit your mother down and tell her the living situation isn't working out.

Anybody can do that.

I think what you mean is you won't do it. And that's fine; every adult in this situation, including you, is a willing volunteer.

If you avoiding conflict is worth more to you your slavedom to the freeloaders, then go ahead and do nothing.

But I tremble for your daughter. She is being raised in this unhealthy environment where her only examples are freeloaders and a poor put-upon mother.

She's either going to turn into another adult child freeloader on your hands, or she's going to get her own uncaring husband like yours.

That's why I think your priority should be to get yourself and your daughter out of there. You really should start saving and forming an escape plan.

But if you can't even have a discussion with your mother, your daughter is doomed.

My mother is an amazing daughter and mum. She is a housewife and she lives and breathes for family. She cared for her two ill parents, she will drop anything to come help us if we are in need.

I guarantee you if she had your rude houseguest of a mother in her home she would simply take her by the arm and escort her to the kerb. I'm not kidding.




I'm trying to imagine my mother enduring this scenario. Quite simply, she wouldn't. My fathers own things would be packed up before he was done cleaning out the room. The locks would be changed next time he left the house.

My mother taught me how to stand up for myself. Who will teach your daughter?

I think it can be you. I don't think you are "powerless and hopeless" at all.

I don't think you are right when you say:



I think you have it in you. I glimpse a strong, eloquent, caring, protective mother figure in your posts. But all you show others is a doormat.

I think it would be amazing if your daughter could see the real you.

Are you willing to try with one small first step?

Your first step should be:

Write out a list of houserules for your mother. And a timetable of chores/babysitting she is expected to do. Sit her down and tell her the living situation isn't working out and you expect her to cooperate in making this a happy home. Tell her if it doesn't start working soon, you'll have to reconsider her living with you.

IF she really is so very ill and dependent to the point she needs you, then she will gladly heed this warning. If she is only interested in bossing you to death for fun, then she won't. Set a months deadline for her to start showing an improvement. Don't tell her, just write it in your diary.

And at one month from today you'll have your answer and can evict her with a clear conscience.

And if you aren't interested in making changes, you won't do any of this and I will have mine.

So tell your mom that you are no longer interested in cable and if she wants cake, she will be paying for it.

If she gets mad, so what. She gets mad.

This is pretty much what we've decided to do.

My mother is very capable of doing work around the house. In fact, I'm pretty sure she's capable of driving herself to her own appointments and running her own errands. She was doing so before she moved in with us and nothing has changed in regards to her health since then. I think she wants to be more decrepit than she actually is so that other people will take care of her.

Her excuse (and she has actually said this) is "You know I've never been a neat person." It's true. She's always been a messy slob. She's never done much in the way of housework. The house was always a disaster when she was living with my grandmother.

But if she's going to live with me, she's going to have to change. I'm not willing to live with her mess. If she wants to live in a messy house, she can find her own. I'm not her maid.

We should have sat down and had this conversation before we moved in together. Better late than never I suppose.

I agree.

We're going to look into it. Right now, we have AT&T U-Verse and our internet is part of the bundle. I would like to find some good high-speed internet and switch over to Netflix and Hulu. It would be a lot cheaper and we would still be able to watch whatever movies and shows we'd like to watch.

Writer, I think the When to Call It Quits letter two has a lot of good advice for your situation with your mom. Go to your pastor and say you need some help, that this is ruining your marriage. Probably they can help set her up to rent a room in a house of a parishioner that's struggling to pay bills, where your mom's contribution would be a needed help. Your mom and the other person would get companionship from one another too.

And then while you're there tell them you and your DH need help with an exit plan. They can connect you with folks that can help you get set up in a new community with a reasonable COL.

That's a good idea. She could ask a social worker for help in weighing her options too. That was suggested to her initially.

But how to help writer's mother is really not the problem here as she is an adult fully capable of taking care of herself. The problem is writer's mother like to call the shots and wants to be in writer's home to call the shots and writer lets her.

In the story of Sinbad and the Old Man of the Sea, Sinbad was tricked into taking the Old Man onto his back, by the man pretending to be helpless and far from any source of water to drink.

When this usually happened, the old Man would then not release his grip, forcing his victim to transport him wherever he pleased and allowing his victim little rest. The Old Man's victims all eventually died of this miserable treatment, but Sinbad, after having got the Old Man drunk with wine, was able to shake him off.

The problem in this story was not 'How do we help the Old Man of the Sea get a drink' - But how does Sinbad shake loose the Old Man of the Sea.

And I would suggest that Writer has the same problem.

How can you 'look into' telling your mother to pay for her own cable?

Surely it is simply a question of saying: "You are paying for your own cable". What you decide to get for yourself afterwards is incidental.

Aren't you going to write Dr. Harley?

I thought the EXACT same thing when I read that...

Why not give him a try? It's an email and you can listen to his response. It's free.

Is it because you don't want to take the advice from Dr. Harley?

I meant, my husband and I were going to look into our options as far as internet goes so that we get can Netflix and Hulu.

My mom can do whatever she wants.

Not at all. I would actually like to hear what Dr. Harley has to say about this issue.

We are not religious. No one in my family attends church.

Oh writer I'm sorry I have you confused with another poster then.

Good.

So you'll write him then?

Yes, hopefully tomorrow.

Have a sick little one at home who needs to go to the doctor this afternoon.

DD feeling better, so going to work on the email today.

I do have one question that maybe someone has had to deal with regarding a parent or other person in their lives.

How do you tell someone that some of the things they do are quite inappropriate or disgusting without hurting their feelings? My mother frequently talks about gross health issues she's having (in way too much detail). Frankly, it makes me sick. I'm not her doctor and I really don't need to know all of this. She also talks about inappropriate things in front of DD5, like things that happen on the news or stuff she watches on TV that just aren't suitable for small children.

I've tried being delicate about these things and letting her know it bothers me when she does this, but she doesn't seem to get it. She seems utterly oblivious to how she comes across to other people.

I'm trying to find a way to address these issues more directly that won't offend her.

Any ideas?

I would interrupt her and request that the subject be better addressed privately in a conversation with just you later. That goes for both the health issues and the inappropriate comments about news broadcasts. If she starts up, remind her again and keep reminding her but do not get cross. She may have some dementia.

Then, when you do have the private conversation, listen attentively but do not engage in a discussion. That way it does not become an attention getting exercise.

You have 6 people in a 3 person house.
I would have a family meeting and say that this living arrangement is untenable in the long run. Grandma needs some help but can pay for an apartment, and DS21 and DS19 need some support but can help out grandma. You will pay the deposit and will help them look at some apartments. You do expect to be helping them move by the end of the Month.

The Harley's read my letter on the radio show today!

Lots of good ideas and a lot of things for me to think over. They did pretty much confirm what I was already thinking about the situation.

Brainhurts, can you find the link? Can a link be posted for the current show, or do we have to wait until it goes into the archives?

Also, is it possible to permanently download the broadcast onto my computer so I can listen to it again and have my husband listen to it when he gets home from work tonight?

What was the advice, writer? Would you mind summing it up, please? I won't be able to listen until much later.

I need to go back to listen to it again.

Basically the advice was to follow the POJA, and since neither me nor my husband are enthusiastic about my mom living with us, then she shouldn't.

They said my husband and I should sit down and brainstorm ideas about how to solve the problem until we come up with a solution that we are both enthusiastic about.

Joyce suggested that my mother might be depressed, and I fully agree with that. She said it might help to talk to my mother's doctor about her depression and see if medication might be necessary. My mother has a doctor's appointment next week, and this is something I've been wanting to discuss with her doctor. I don't think it's possible for someone to spend 17+ hours a day in bed and not be depressed.

Dr. Harley didn't seem to think it would be a good idea to continue having my mother live with us even if the depression was addressed. He was of the opinion that our marriage is under enough stress due to our situation with our OC as it was. He did say that possibly, if my mother could baby sit and that would allow my husband and I to get in the necessary UA time out of the house, it could work. But in our circumstances, he didn't recommend it. My mom does baby sit, but since her idea of baby sitting is watching TV in her room while DD5 watches TV in the living room, I'm not okay doing that for 15 hours a week.

That's all I remember for now. I'm going to listen to it again when DD takes her nap.

You can listen to it from the listen now tab until tomorrow's show. As soon as it hits the archives I will post it.

Not by normal means, but I did capture a copy of the current stream and have it as an MP3 if it would help you to have it now. I'm not sure if it's OK to post a link to the file or if it's best to wait until it's archived. If there's not a problem with posting early I will do so. I've edited it down to just your part of the broadcast.

He also said that your problem is a really tough one. He said that whatever solution you and your husband come up with, your mother isn't going to like it but that shouldn't matter. He said your mother shouldn't be living with you even if she was a wonderful person, because the OC situation is such a big issue in your marriage. He said you husband needs to be on board with raising the OC via POJA, and that he suspected that your husband already was.

Word.

Yes he did.

I don't think the OC situation is that big of an issue in my marriage at this point. I know that might be difficult for some to believe. My husband is very on board with raising my OC. In fact, he would be very offended if someone referred to her that way. They are very close. He considers her his daughter and nothing less. And legally, he is. His name is on the birth certificate. OM has never even seen her and we've been completely NC for years. He lives 3000 miles away on the other side of the country and is remarried (last I heard, which was four years ago). He really doesn't figure into our lives at all.

I didn't get into the background with my affair and OC too much in my letter to the Harley's, simply because there wasn't enough time to cover everything and that isn't really the issue we are struggling with right now. Though I would like to consult the Harley's at some point about how to tell OC about her biological father. I'm still unsure when and how to approach this. But I'm just trying to deal with one issue at a time.

You've just said a lot about an issue that Dr Harley said very little about, and nothing at all about the issue that you wrote to him about - your mother living with you.

Dr H mentioned your daughter really only to say that an OC is a big enough challenge on your marriage without this extra stress. However, he made a very specific recommendation about your mother, which was to, first, accept that you are not mutually enthusiastic about her living with you and so, second, to brainstorm at least one idea per day each to find a resolution to that problem.

Are you going to suggest this your husband? Are you prepared to tell your mother (following the brainstorming) that she can no longer live with you? Will you take those steps to solve this problem?

I already gave an overview of the other advice the Harley's gave me yesterday. I was just addressing a part of the broadcast that I didn't mention yesterday because, yes, it was a very small part of the overall conversation. But someone else brought it up, so I addressed it.

Yes, we are going to follow the advice. My husband just listened to the broadcast last night before we went to bed. He's very much on board with brainstorming ideas until we come up with a solution.

About 6 posts before you posted this she talked about what Harley said about the mom issue

I apologise, writer.

I did read this. What I missed at the time was whether you and your H are willing to follow this advice, which you have answered now. Thank you.

My mom was admitted to the hospital this evening.

There is a preliminary diagnosis of metastatic cervical cancer with masses in her lungs, lymph nodes, right kidney, cervix and uterus.

I'm in shock. We thought she just had a UTI and maybe gallstones. I didn't see this coming at all and I have no idea how to even begin processing all of this.

Wow, that is sad and scary.

Be loving and know that is all you can expect of yourself right now.

Plenty of self care as well

Peace.

Give yourself some time, and allow the situation to unfold by itself. The time will come when you will know all the facts and have a much clearer idea what needs to be done. We offer you our sympathy at this horrible turn of events.

Oh writer, I'm praying for you!!!!! Take a deep breath. Take one day at a time, one hour if necessary. You can survive today. My favorite verse is Zeph 3:17 where it pictures us crawling into God's lap and him quieting us like a mother and singing over us. During my dad's illness I had to crawl into God's lap and cry a lot.

Next week or next month when you have had time, I will give you other advice about dealing with a loved one going through a chronic illness For now, I will just say that sometimes life stinks!!!!!!

I'm sorry to hear this, writer. Praying for you and all of your family.

I'm so sorry, writer.

So sorry writer. (((Writer)))

Thanks everyone.

My mom is home now. We're going to see her regular doctor tomorrow to get a referral for a G.I. specialist and an oncologist. I'm guessing it may be a week or so before we have any definitive answers. But for now, she's home and resting comfortably. I'll feel a lot better when I know for sure what we're dealing with and what our options are. I've never dealt well with uncertainty.

Glad to hear she is comfortable. Good luck on this journey.

Writer, I'm so sorry to hear this. I'm glad she's had some quality time with you and your kids, and is comfortable now.

Radio Clip About caring for an aging parent.
Radio Clip on Taking Care of an Aging Parent

Writer,

How are you doing? Thoughts are with you.

Hi everyone.

Thank you for your concern.

Just a quick update: My mom is at a local university hospital that has a very well-regarded oncology department. They are running a variety of tests including biopsies and CT scans. We should know more in a few days. Right now, the tumors in her lymph nodes are causing the most issues, since they causing her kidneys to not function correctly. But her labs looked a little better today. Overall, she's in good spirits and they are giving her something to help with the pain.

It's been an exhausting couple of days. I didn't even get home from the hospital until 3 a.m. this morning and then had to go back around noon to take a CD of the CT scan she had last week at the other hospital to the new hospital. I am beyond exhausted and feeling quite overwhelmed, but hanging in there.

All you can do is keep putting one foot ahead of the other and smile.

The results of the biopsy aren't officially back yet, but the oncologist is fairly certain it is cancer. It's looking like they will be doing 5 weeks of radiation, 5 times a week. After the radiation, she will have 2 sessions of chemo, and I think each session consists of 5 treatments.

Also, they inserted two tubes into her kidneys to help drain them until the radiation/chemo can hopefully ease the compression on them and they can start functioning on their own again. The tubes will probably stay in place for several months.

We are going over the hospital this afternoon to learn how to flush and care for the kidney tubes. Sounds like they will have to be flushed morning and night (by someone other than my mom since they are on her back and she can't reach) and the bags will have to be emptied/changed several times a day. She should be coming home tomorrow.

One question I have is how do I deal with UA time when I probably won't be able to leave my mother alone for very long at a time for at least the next several months? Since there are other people in the house who can help, her insurance likely won't pay for in-home care at this point. I don't want my marriage to completely fall apart over the next few months, since it's not going so well as it is. I've barely seen my husband this week at all. We aren't getting any UA time. We're hardly ever even in the same place at the same time at all and I don't see much of a solution for that for the time being.

I'd love some advice from anyone who has had to deal with a seriously ill parent and still juggle all of the other things in life - UA time, family time, domestic/work responsibilities. I'm feeling very overwhelmed at the moment.

Look for a council of aging in your area. ( Or something similarly named). They might be able help or at least give you some names of people. Is your mom on medicare? Would she qualify for Medicaid? ( I'm not sure how many assets/ how much in the bank she personally has.) Medicare provided my dad with in home health and provided a woman to sit with him and do some light housework/cook meals. That only lasted for a short time, but then we were able to hire the lady ourselves. Her rates were reasonable and less than what we paid through the home health since she didn't have overhead.

As far as multitasking... I didn't even know about MB back then and my dad wasn't quite as seriously ill as your mom. So he could actually watch my kids while we went out as my oldest could help out grandpa and yet he could make sure they didn't get into mischief. I homeschooled in doctor's offices, hospitals while getting tests done, physical therapy offices. As he got stable, I set boundaries for how often/when I took care of him. ( Which may not be possible in your case.) So I had a set day that was our take him to Walmart day.

I'm looking at the ages of your children, and I'm sorry, but I don't remember your back story and if they are in the area or responsible. But if possible, have a meeting with them and tell them you really need their help. At their age, they should be able to . What could fit into their lives? Could each of them take one evening a week to give you a break? ( I see you have 4 children over 18) Do you have any siblings that might come for a long weekend so that you and your husband could get away once a month? Do you belong to a church? Our church has helped out people taking care of a relative like this. They have brought in meals, had someone sit with the loved one, etc.

The bottom line is that YOU cannot do it all, writer. I wish I had asked for more help instead of trying to be superwoman. It is funny because a couple of weeks ago, my husband apologized for being such a jerk while my dad was living with us. He told me he should have been more help to me and more supportive. But it is just a tough situation. I hated being in that position. So if at all possible, just share your heart with your husband and tell him you don't want to neglect him at this time but that you are also feeling SO overwhelmed. Can he help you come up with some solutions that you can both be happy with.

My prayers are with you!!! Been there, done that and it isn't easy.

Here it is.
Radio Clip of writer1's question

A lot has happened in the past few weeks.

The biopsy revealed that my mom has cervical cancer. A PET scan showed it has spread to much nearby tissue (rectum, uterus, possibly bladder) as well as nearby and distant lymph nodes, and lungs. This makes it Stage lV, which is considered incurable.

Been doing lots of tests and preparation for palliative treatment. She should start radiation and chemo next week. The radiation will be daily for 5 1/2 weeks and chemo will be weekly for as long as it is working and her body can tolerate it.

The prognosis is she probably has about a year.

I guess we're handling it about as well as can be expected. She doesn't do much other than sleep and watch TV. She is having to take percocet for pain every 4 hours around the clock. She doesn't eat much at all. The hope is that the radiation will help decrease the tumors, and therefore the pain, and improve her quality of life.

What I'm trying to figure out at this point is how to cope with her illness and all of the other things going on at the same time. This is definitely putting a strain on my M than I'm not sure it can withstand. We still get some UA time, thanks to my sons, but one will be leaving for a job in CO soon. I imagine our UA time will suffer even more as my mother's condition worsens. I'm also starting to feel a lot of resentment since the bulk of the responsibilities seem to be falling on me. I've tried to talk to my H about this, but it usually ends up in an argument. I just don't get the feeling that he wants to hear anything I have to say. Any and all complaints get an immediate negative reaction. I spend so much time now trying to figure out how to phrase something in a way that won't make him defensive that I rarely get around to saying anything at all, which obviously isn't working and is increasing my level of resentment.

I'm just plain worn out and exhausted.

writer, I'm so sorry to hear the terrible news about your mother.

I can tell that you have a miserable year ahead. Have you looked into health services that you can claim, such as visiting nurses? Over here I believe there would be some help offered by the NHS with personal care. What about with your insurance?

What specifically have you complained to your H about, and what arguments does he make to rebuff the complaints?

Thank you SC.

Right now, we have a nurse coming over once a week to check on my mom and see how she's doing. I'm not sure what's available beyond that. We haven't gotten that far in the process though. I do know someone else who went through this recently though, and they said they eventually had to hire a caregiver on their own, because Medicare/Insurance wouldn't pay for it. It cost them about $150 a day, and they had to provide a room for the caregiver to sleep in (since their loved one needed 24/7 care). Not sure how we would manage that on either count.

Mostly I have complained to my H about not having enough help around the house. He will help when I specifically ask him to, tell him what to do, and how to do it. My main complaint is that he doesn't take any initiative. An example: Last week, my mom had a late doctor's appointment and we didn't get home until almost 5:30. When we got back, my H and both sons were sitting on their computers and no one had given any thought at all to what we were going to do for dinner. It would have been nice to come home and actually find someone fixing something. It wasn't something I knew was going to happen ahead of time, since the appointment was at 3 and lasted much longer than we originally anticipated. We didn't discuss it, but it would have made some huge LB deposits if my H had noticed the time, realized we would need to eat when we got home, and started making something.

The main problem is, I am primarily responsible for our 5-year-old, everything having to do with my mom's care, 90% of the housework, and making sure everyone eats everyday. When I tell my H I need help, he says he's willing to help more, but then when it comes down to it, it often doesn't happen. It was fine when he worked and I just stayed home and took care of the house and DD. But now, with my mom's illness thrown into the mix, it isn't working anymore. She has at least 2-3 doctor's appointments every week, and once she starts radiation/chemo, it will become daily. Plus, I have to change the dressings where her kidney tubes are and flush the tubes everyday. I have to help her with most everything. She can still take a shower and dress herself, but that's about it. It's overwhelming and I'm having a difficult time adapting.

Have checked to see if there is federal or state funding to assist with your mom?

My wife has a high need for DS. I asked her to write a specific list on what would be the most important in terms of helping her out. And if there is something else she needs help with on a specific day, let me know.

I think it'd be easier to do that than just assume he's going to do something and be disappointed that he didn't volunteer to do something.

I don't like vague 'I need help with cleaning' stuff. I want a checklist. Most guys are this way

Thanks KT. I know this, and it's true about my H as well.

I'm just trying to figure out how to make it happen when our lives are so unpredictable right now. Like with the dinner thing, I had no way of knowing we were going to be gone that long. One doctor sent us to another doctor who sent us to the lab, so we were running all over the place. I was driving much of the time, or in doctor's offices where my ability to text/call was limited. I did try to text him a few times, but our communication wasn't great.

I wake up every morning and I have no idea what the day will hold. Many days, we don't have an appointment and I think I will be able to do stuff, only to get a call from a doctor saying we need to go here and do this or that. It's crazy. Maybe things will settle down once the treatments get started and we have a set routine. But right now, I don't know how to plan for anything at all because I never know what I'm going to have to do from one moment to the next. I would love to give my husband a checklist, but I'm not sure how to know what to put on it if I don't even know myself what I'm going to have to do that day.

Hospice may be an option for your mom.

one suggestion, ask to talk to a social worker at the hospital she is having her treatments at to find out what the options for help are.

Hospice is a great idea, but if she is not considered to be a candidate for that (usually means life expectancy less than 6 months), ask about palliative care.

Also, with your husband, you might want to concentrate on having some positive time together. He might be overwhelmed by what is happening to your family, and just react in a way that seems not helpful to you. You need some time focused on each other, which I realize is a challenge given circumstances.

My thoughts are with you.

Hi writer,

I'm so sorry you are going through this. When I was taking care of my dad my kids were 3, 7 and 10 when it started and 7, 11 and 14 when he died. My husband was working 80 hour weeks, though and he wasn't available to help. Plus, I was homeschooling while running around to physical therapists, eventually cancer doctors, pulmonary doctors, etc. I trained my children to help. My oldest one cooked dinners many nights. Once I had started dinner and I had to leave and he finished it. I trained them to do the housework. It wasn't until the very last year that my older two finally caught on and started helping me without being asked. But most of the time I would be like, OK guys you are sitting there playing and running around while I'm struggling getting the wheelchair out of the car and getting grandpa out and getting out his clothes.. You need to LOOK and see and do things without being asked. They finally started doing that but it took over 3 years of talking to them. Now your boys are A LOT older. I would sit your boys down and tell them that you really need some help. Delegate the cooking to them several days a week. If they have never cooked before, then start with really easy recipes or buy a big frozen lasagna that they can put into oven. Delegate as much of the regular housework and possibly care of the 5yo as possible. You be responsible for your mom's care.

Do you belong to a church? I wish I had not tried to be superwoman and asked for their help during this time. I know they would have brought meals. And I know about two different instances where some men had some SERIOUS health issues and needed 34/7 care and our church provided for the wife to have a sitter a couple of days a week, so she could leave the house. But no one can help you if they don't know.

As far as UA and marriage issues, I'll let the vets here address that. We hadn't ever heard of MB at that point and ours was nonexistent. As I said, my husband just recently apologized to me for not helping me at all during this period. He was just so overwhelmed and didn't want my dad in the house, but like me saw no other option available. Luckily for me he only lived with us for 7 months until we could get him stabilized and found him a little rental house. For me it was chronic health issues not palliative care. But I'm not sure how you deal with the resentment that comes with a parent who is hard to live with anyway getting to the end of life and being stuck taking care of them. There is anger at them for their personality and behavior that either caused the illness or made it a lot worse. There is anger at God for putting this mess on your doorstep when you have enough on your plate and anger at your husband ( though for me it was mixed with sympathy as well) for making you do this all by yourself. You feel like the world deserted you. ( Or at least I did..)

So lots of sympathy and if you lived anywhere close, I'd be driving up to help!!! You are in my prayers!!

Thank you tiredwife.

I don't have a lot of time to respond to everything right now.

But your quote above struck a nerve. This is exactly how I feel. And most of the time, I feel like crap for feeling that way.

How can I possibly resent my mother now that she's dying? What kind of person does that make me? But I do. She has always been a difficult, unpleasant, negative influence in my life. It makes me feel so petty and horrible that all of that still bothers me, and that I have to take care of her everyday and try not to think about that. But I do still think about it. The resentment is still there. The cancer hasn't diminished it. I feel like it should have, like I should be able to forgive all of that and enjoy what time we have left with her, but how do I do that when I've never enjoyed being around her?

(((Writer))). You take care of her for YOU. To honor your own values. Whether she deserves such care or not is irrelevant.

For the practical side of things, keep looking for programs that will help you. My understanding of hospice is that they will only let you in the program once all treatments have stopped. But that could be different in CA, so find out.

You are in an emergency situation that may last a while. Pull out your crock pot, cook double batches of some meals and freeze one. Have a couple of go to quick meals for days like you described when you were unexpectedly late.

That is why I posted it. I felt like a horrible Christian and a horrible person for having these thoughts. But I wasn't. Those feelings are normal. For me, it came down to being able to look myself in the mirror. My responsibility according to the Bible was to honor my father and so I chose to do that by taking care of him. On the other hand, that didn't mean that I gave up my life either, so I moved him out as soon as possible. I drew boundaries like I didn't just show up whenever he asked. I was with him and made doctor appointments when they were convenient to my schedule. I took him to Wal-Mart once a week, so that is when he could get groceries and stuff. ( Sometimes he wasn't up for it, and I went by myself.) Now, obviously I wasn't dealing with the same type diagnosis you were. But just try and do what you can...maybe Tuesdays are a day where you put on your schedule that someone else will take care of her for 4 hours: one of your sons, someone from church, someone the social worker knows, etc. Then you and your husband go out. You are going to have to schedule it yourself and make sure it gets taken care of. I know with this initial diagnosis/treatment you may get last minute appointments, but generally you should get to a place where you can tell the docs, this isn't a good day let's look at Wednesday instead. You won't always be successful, but the more boundaries you can put in place, the better. Just verbalize to you sons and to your friends and to your husband that you are worn out and need help. You don't like being in this place either. You might even tell them that you are mad that you have to do this... That is ok..

You are human. You have a right to feel the way that you do!!!! I will tell you that when she passes, you will also have very mixed emotions. I was lucky. My dad came to Christ and changed and we were able to put some things behind us and develop a new relationship, but the care was still hard when developed bladder cancer and other health issues in addition to rebreaking his leg and having severe COPD. I missed my dad when he passed, but I also felt free of a gigantic weight and so glad to be free of the added responsibilities ( Get myself dressed all the kids dressed, drive to my dad's and get him dressed and get everyone to church..) I felt really guilty to be somewhat relieved.. My pastor must have known that I struggled with guilt about how I could have taken care of him better that maybe I should have done more, but my family needed to come first... He told me at the funeral that I should be proud of the way that I took care of my dad and that I should never second guess myself or feel guilty. I remembered that when I was tempted think I should have done this or that better.

Hang in there. Look for daily manna. God gave the Israelites just what they needed to get through the day and that is what he will give you. Try not to look to far down the road. Handle today. The verse that got me through this time was Zeph 3:17
The Lord, your God, is in your midst,
a warrior who gives victory;
he will rejoice over you with gladness,
he will quiet you with his love;
he will exult over you with singing

I pictured myself climbing up into God's lap and him holding me and quieting me like I quieted my kids when they were hurt. I would cry and he would sing over me. He will give you victory over this situation. Just crawl up into his lap.

Praying for you.

Dear writer1,

have you and your mother considered not doing the radiation and chemotherapy? If your mother is in a situation where there is no realistic chance that she will recover, it would be wise to carefully consider the options.

Radiation and chemotherapy have side effects. It is important to weigh the side effects against the chance that she will benefit from continuing therapy. Most patients take the chemo- and radiotherapy, whereas many doctors do not if they are in the same position.

Although there may be specific reasons to undergo therapy and even paliative surgery, it is important to weigh the benefits against the costs and not only to look at prolonging life, but more at improving quality of life, even if that means living shorter. Those are decisions only your mothercan make, but it is important to make the decisions and speak with the medical team about the possibilities.

God bless
Happyheart

I live in an area where there are lots of elderly people. What I have seen suggests to me that people face their own terminal illness in much the same way that they faced their life. Those who have always approached life with grace and dignity continue to do so as death approaches. I don't think that simply knowing of the approach of one's death validates any behaviors that would have otherwise been wrong. The things that your mother does that were wrong before she knew of the cancer are still wrong now. Your feelings toward your mother's impositions in your life are as valid now as they were before. Her illness doesn't change that. The expectation that you should sacrifice the well being of you marriage for her was wrong before, and is still wrong now. I know people with illnesses as serious as your mom's who are likely to die even sooner, and who would never dream of putting the kind of pressure on their offspring's marriages that you are experiencing because of your mom.

So, what am I suggesting to you? I am saying that your mother's health is not a requirement for you to make extraordinary sacrifices. In points of fact, the situation you are now in is much the same as when Dr. Harley told you that you and your husband need to decide how your mom will be leaving your house. Your first obligation is to your marriage. I suggest aggressively seeking alternative care for you mother. Don't feel guilty about doing that, because you really shouldn't.

The way the doctors explained it to us, the radiation and chemo she will be receiving are meant to improve the quality of her life. Right now, my mother is in a lot of pain. She is taking Percocet every four hours around the clock, and it isn't helping as much as it used to. The radiation especially is meant to help shrink the tumors and ease that pain. The chemo they are primarily using to shrink the tumors in her lungs, since they can't do radiation on those.

My mother just had a porta-cath placed today which the doctor's will use to deliver her chemotherapy. She should be starting treatment any day now. Just waiting for the chemo doctor and the radiologist to coordinate their schedules and get things set up.

If the chemo and radiation don't improve her condition, or she isn't tolerating them well, we may have to reconsider our options. But right now, my mother very much wants the treatments.

I don't see how it's possible for my mother to leave our home at this point. She really has no other family and nowhere to go. It simply isn't possible for her to live on her own anymore. She can walk around the house a little, but she is pretty much bound to a wheelchair when we have to take her anywhere, and the only place she goes anymore is to doctor's appointments. There are no alternative care options available to us at the moment that I am aware of. I don't know if Dr. Harley's advice would change if he knew about my mother's condition.

That's not really how his advice works. If people say their life circumstances make it too hard to follow his advice, (even if that is very, very true) he does not then turn around and say: "OK - it doesn't matter then". What he usually says is that it is a shame because the person's situation is unlikely to get better without action.

If a doctor prescibes medicine, but then people say they cannot afford to pay for it or don't have the time to take it - then they won't get better. Saying you cannot take the medicine won't make the condition go away by itself.

Writer, may I ask something about what plans you have in place for the very worst case scenarios?

If you or your husband were to be injured or killed, or diagnosed with a terminal illness, what would contingency plans are in place for your mother and children?

I'm a big believer in hoping for the best but planning for the worst.

What would happen to your mother if the two of you divorced?

What if you were to become diagnosed with a stress related illness which made you unable to care for your mother?

Those are some other contingency plans you should have in place.

Before you took your mother in, some posters said it was highly likely your mother would get very sick. That's what happens when we get older. Some people said you should anticipate the very worst scenario possible and prepare for that.

I know that when you set out on this journey of trying to help your mother you were a bit overwhelmed and didn't want to think about 'worst case' scenarios. You rather wanted to hope for the best instead.

That was understandable but I think the time for hoping for the best is long gone.

This is because there are still plenty of things that can go wrong in your situation. But I am sure you can prepare, plan and avoid them.

I don't say that to be mean, but rather to ask you what preparations can be made to limit any further problems happening.

Actually, what I was wondering was, would Dr. Harley's advice be different in light of my mother's current health issues? I know he didn't think it was a good idea for my mother to be living with us if she was able-bodied and capable of living on her own. But I don't know if his advice would be different now that she isn't able-bodied and simply cannot live on her own, and probably will never be able to. We didn't know she had cancer or that she was terminally ill when I sent that original letter to the radio show. I may actually send a new letter and update the situation and see what his advice would be in light of these new circumstances.

I know we're not the first family to deal with a seriously ill parent. Most people at some point or another have to deal with a parent in declining health. I don't think it's uncommon for parents to require care as they age and I know many families who have made the choice to provide this care at home. There may be a time when my mother will require more care than we can provide her at home. My H and I have discussed this. We will probably get to the point where we will need help from hospice, or maybe even a nursing home, but from what I've been able to learn, neither of these are options while my mom is undergoing chemo and radiation treatments.

Honestly, I don't have the answers to all of these.

My H has a life insurance policy through his work that would help out if anything were to ever happen to him. I don't have life insurance since I don't work and our family income wouldn't be affected as much if anything happened to me. When we can afford it, I would like to get a policy for myself as well.

As far as divorce goes, that is a choice. We have chosen not to consider this as an option. We aren't going to get divorced, so planning for that isn't necessary.

Right now, I am in good health. I've always taken care of myself. I exercise, eat a healthy diet, don't smoke or drink, and am not overweight. I have no medical issues other than a sluggish thyroid gland, which is treated with one medication a day. I have no reason to believe I will get sick because I take care of myself, something my mother never did.

It's not that I don't think about these things, but I don't obsess over them relentlessly. I believe prevention goes a long way. Most of what is wrong with my mother was completely preventable through lifestyle choices - her obesity, her Type-2 Diabetes, her high blood pressure, even her cancer. If she'd gone in for regular Pap smears, this would have been caught much earlier. When caught early, cervical cancer has a 95% cure rate. If she'd taken better care of herself in the first place, she would have drastically decreased her chances of ever developing cervical cancer in the first place, sine only a small percentage of people with the HPV virus ever develop cervical cancer, and most of them have weakened immune systems due to other medical issues.

Of course, no one can predict the future. But I do think there are things we can do to greatly increase our chances of remaining healthy well into old age. My mother has always served as a cautionary tale for me.

Does you mother have any funds remaining from her inheritance? It would be really great if you could use those funds for respite care each week. That way you could get some UA time with your H, something to look forward to, and a break.

Your mother could be sick for months and months, and meanwhile your marriage will continue to suffer. This situation just sounds so terribly depressing for you.

Yes, she has money. We will probably end up having to hire someone at some point. We have friends who went through this and they hired someone to live with them 24/7, but that cost $5000 a month and they were required to provide a private room for the caregiver. We wouldn't be able to do that. A) My mom doesn't have THAT much money and B) We simply don't have enough room in our house to provide a private room for the caregiver. But I'm sure at some point and time we will have to have someone come in more than what we have now, which is basically 1-2 nurse visits a week that only last 30 minutes and don't offer any sort of respite opportunities.

Right now, we are getting in some UA time, since DS21 is still living with us and has been an immense help. He baby sits and helps my mom when she needs something and we aren't here. So we've been getting out 2-3 times a week, with at least 1-2 dates out of the house. But DS21 will be leaving to start his new job in Colorado in a couple of weeks, and things will get more difficult then. DS19 will still be here, but he has behavioral issues and even though he's pretty good about baby sitting, he doesn't get along with my mom at all and I don't think she would take well to him helping her out. They've never gotten along. DS19 also doesn't drive, so he won't be able to help out with taking my mom or DD5 places like DS21 has been able to do. DH is gone for work M-F from 4:30 a.m. until about 4 p.m. so he won't be around to help much during weekdays, so he can't really drive my mom to appointments or take DD5 to school.

My mom starts the radiation and chemo next week. We will be doing radiation appointments daily for 30-45 minutes a day and chemo once a week for 1-1.5 hours. Right now, about all I can do is wait and see how my mom responds to the treatments. We are living very much one day at a time at this point.

Writer I am so sorry your family is going through this. You are a good daughter to care for her in her final days.

How much UA time are you actually getting?

So you're not going to take Dr. Harley's advice?

How are you doing today Writer? I know how that feels to be in an emergency situation with taking care of sick family members.

I'd say we're getting 10 - 15 hours a week right now. Not bad really, under the circumstances.

I don't know what you mean about not following Dr. Harley's advice. I don't actually know what his advice would be since my mother's diagnosis with a terminal illness. I suspect it might be different now that my mother isn't physically capable of taking care of herself or living on her own anymore.

Thanks for asking SW. I'm doing okay today. My mom has seemed a little better too. Monday was a bad day as she had the porta- cath put in and she was in quite a bit of pain from the surgery.

I'm hoping the radiation she starts next week will start easing some of her pain, like the radiologist said it should. The pain meds just aren't working for her like they used to. If the radiation doesn't help, she's going to need something stronger than the percocet soon. It isn't working very well anymore.

I doubt it. But why don't you write him and ask?

Dr. Harley seems like a empathetic man. I am sure he would praise you and your dh for taking care of your terminally ill mother. I would be curious what he would say about a situation like this----your mom having no where else to go and not being able to care for herself anymore. I am so sorry she is in so much pain.

I was planning on it, though I have to be honest, if his advice is to move my mom out even though she's terminally ill and needs help with things like preparing meals, changing the dressings on her tubes, and getting transportation to and from her daily appointments, I don't think I can follow it. These treatments are the best shot my mom has at improving the length and quality of her life. She can't live on her own and if she goes into hospice or a nursing home, she couldn't do the treatments. So honestly, I don't see any choice but having her live with us for now. There may be a time when the treatments aren't an option anymore and we will then consider hospice or a nursing home, but that time hasn't come yet.

My mother's doctors and every medical professional we've encountered throughout this process are all very happy that she doesn't live by herself. They have all said that it is absolutely necessary for her to live with someone who can help her with everyday activities as well as driving her around and attending to her various medical needs. None of them think she is capable of living independently now.

I'd say hire someone to take care of her during your 15 hours per week, and to preferably spend that time OUT of the home so that you are not burdened during your time together. You should contact your local Hospice for references you can use to find conscientious caregivers you can hire (or who volunteer) so you can have this time alone.

One night a week in a hotel room well away from your ailing mother (an hour or more, so you're not tempted to "stop by") would do wonders.

Who provides her health coverage?

Is it medicare/medicaid? Does she have a caseworker?

If so; does she qualify and/or is hospice appropriate? If hospice is not, talk to them about setting up respite care.

My Aunt and Uncle took care of my grandparents and had some home-health for cares (bathing), and respite care so they could maintain their marriage by getting out of the home.

She has Medicare and also supplemental insurance (I believe it is Scan, which is in CA only I think).

Right now, she does have a nurse who comes to help with the kidney tubes and stuff 1-2 times a week, but she doesn't provide respite care. I have a friend who recently went through this with his MIL, and he said insurance usually won't cover respite care. They had to pay for that on their own. Right now, my two sons stay with her while my H and I go out for UA time, but DS21 will be leaving soon and DS19 isn't very reliable, so we may need help at that time. Caregivers are very expensive. My mom has the money, but she's quite frugal about spending it. I don't have the money. It's something we need to sit down and talk about though, because obviously, if she gets to the point where she can't get out of bed and needs care 24/7, I simply won't be able to do it by myself. At that point, she'd either have to agree to pay for a caregiver or we would have to put her in a nursing home.

She doesn't qualify for hospice right now because she is doing chemo and radiation. Hospice will not help until she has ended all treatment.

One night a week in a hotel would be wonderful, but there's no way we can afford it. We are going to try to sneak away for two nights next week before my son leaves for his new job in CO. We haven't gone anywhere overnight just the two of us in about two years, so it will be nice to have a couple of days away. That's probably the last time it will happen though for quite awhile.

That's what I was thinking also.

How about following up to Dr. Harley with your circumstances?

The real issue here is not about empathy; it is about sustainability. One needs to sustain both the marriage and the caregiving. Sacrificing the marriage for the caregiving can cost you both. I am the primary caregiver of an autistic adult. I know something about how all this works.

What is needed most is better solutions, both for how to provide the mother's caregiving and how to care for their marriage. Praising sacrifice is not nearly so helpful as suggesting sustainable solutions.

I don't know what the answer is for writer, but she doesn't have to sacrifice her marriage in order to care for a terminally ill parent. There is no virtue in that. Caring for our parents/family can be done in several ways. When my dad was terminally ill, he had his own apartment and I made sure he was well cared for without sacrificing my marriage. I agree we should care for our parents in their time of need, but this can be done without ruining a marriage. Many people take care of their parents AND their marriage at the same time.

writer, I know you are in a difficult situation and I would strongly advise you to contact Dr Harley to see if he has some ideas for you.

Thanks Melody. I'm going to write to him this weekend. My DD5 has four days off from school and I think I'll have some free time then.

Fantastic writer. Let us know what he says.

Just an update.

My mom isn't doing well. We had to take her to the hospital Friday night because of severe vomiting. She spent four days in the hospital and then they transferred her to a temporary rehab facility yesterday. She is now incontinent and can no longer walk at all.

She started the chemo and radiation today. I had to go to the rehab facility, pick her up, take her to the appointment (we were there for about four hours) and then take her back to the facility. She is in diapers now and basically has a bowel movement every 20 minutes or so. I had to change her diaper while we were at the treatment since the nurses at the oncology lab do not do that. It was horrible to say the least and I almost couldn't get her off the toilet at all. The rehab facility will be transporting her to appointments from now on, but I still have to be there to help her at the appointment as they do not provide someone to do that. My mother is much larger than me and it is quite difficult for me to move her around by myself. Luckily she can still stand and transfer to a wheelchair, but I have no idea what I'm going to do when she no longer can.

She can stay in the rehab place for a couple of weeks and Medicare will pay for it. After that, she will either come home or have to go to a nursing home that will cost us thousands of dollars a month. She's already said she doesn't want to go to a nursing home, but if her condition doesn't improve, I don't think we're going to have any choice. Our only other choice is hospice, but she would have to stop all treatments in order to qualify, and she doesn't want to do that either.

For now, we are just waiting to see if the treatments help enough to enable her to come home. If they don't, then we are going to have to figure something out. The biggest issue is that we can't afford to stay in our current home if she is no longer living with us and contributing to the rent. And we've spent so much of our own money over the past few months because of my mother's illness that we don't have anything left now to cover a move.

Not sure how all of this is going to work out. But I am beyond exhausted and completely overwhelmed. Starting to get migraines again too, which I haven't had in years.

Writer,

So sorry to hear you (and your mom) are having a rough time. It sounds like you are at the "take it one day (or hour) at a time" stage.

It seems unlikely she is going to be able to come home, which she may not like, but I think you have to be realistic in what you are able to handle.

Have you talked about the financial options of various choices with a social worker? I do not think you would be responsible for the nursing home costs, your mom would need to use her assets and then medical assistance starts once her assets are gone. I think you can get better information about this from a good social worker, and I would imagine her current facility would have one available.

And hoping you and your husband are able to discuss the options, reach POJA, and he can support you! Because you will feel terrible if your mom is disappointed she cannot come home, and you will need his support I think.

Best wishes....

Both of my wife's parents and one of mine died of cancer. It is a horrible disease.

Your mother may be at the point where all care decisions are dictated by the disease. That happened with my father. We couldn't make decisions fast enough. It seemed that everything we did was too little, too late. My suggestion: try to get an idea from the doctors of how long they think a care decision will work. If you find out that more intensive care will be needed shortly, factor that into your decision. Don't just be reactionary. Try to think ahead. I know it is difficult to do, particularly when what the future holds is so unpleasant.

(((Writer))) I wish I had a magic solution to make things easier on all of you.

Hi writer,

Thinking of you and your family. How is everything going?

Hi. Thank you for asking.

My mom isn't doing well. She started chemo/radiation last week. She's had 6 radiation treatments and 1 chemo treatment. She was supposed to get another round of chemo today, but her kidney function wasn't good enough for them to do it.

Just taking it one day at a time. She is in a rehab/skilled nursing facility right now, but will probably be moving to an assisted living boarding facility in a couple of days. There's just no way we can bring her home at this point as she is pretty much bed-ridden and completely incontinent and I don't see any way that I could care for her at home. We're waiting to see if the treatments help restore some of her ability to function, but the oncologist said this may take another couple of weeks. Just taking it one day at a time for now.

Cancer really sucks. I know we all have to go eventually, but I really do NOT want to go in this way. It is horrific and painful and pretty much robs you of all dignity. It's hard to see my mom suffering like this. Sometimes, I really do just wish it could all be over, but then I feel guilty for feeling that way.

That is truly a totally normal feeling in the face of such a debilitating and painful illness. I hope you don't let yourself feel TOO guilty, because it really is normal to think that way. Cervical cancer especially is a bad one.

My thoughts are with you.

Thinking of you friend. Hang tough. You are a good daughter.

In more positive news, I went in for my first PAP smear in about 5 years a couple of weeks ago. Everything checked out fine and I am HPV negative! Since most cervical cancer is caused by the HPV virus, this means I have little chance of getting it myself.

If it's been longer than a few years since your last PAP smear, I highly recommend getting one for all of the women out there. If my mother had had this simple test, her cancer would likely have been caught much earlier. When detected at the Stage 1 or 2 level, cervical cancer has a cure rate of 85-95%. When it isn't detected until Stage lV, that number plummets to only 15%.

It looks like we are going to have to choose between sending my mother to an assisted-living boarding care facility to the tune of $2500-$3500 a month, or bringing her home and caring for her ourselves. She is being discharged from the rehab facility on Friday.

To complicate matters, my husband just informed me that we have about $250 to our name. We've been going in the hole ever since we moved here, since my mother's $400/month contribution wasn't even a drop in the bucket compared to the increased living expenses we incurred when we rented a larger place so she could live with us.

Not that financial issues are anything new. They've been an ongoing problem for the entire 20 years of our marriage. And we've never lived extravagantly. Far from it. Even all the years when I was working, we barely managed to make ends meet while driving around in old cars and living in a bad neighborhood in an old house that was falling apart.

I would have to say that the single biggest obstacle I've faced in trying to fall in love with my husband has been his chronic lack of any ability to meet my need for FS. And I have some pretty low expectations for that compared to most people, or at least I've learned to have low ones, since I know even low expectations aren't likely to be met.

So, now I have to decide between getting my mother the care she needs or winding up homeless after next month when we can't pay our rent.

Could you not present this problem to your mother? I believe you said that she has plenty of savings. Why not ask her to spend her savings on her assisted living?

We have talked about her spending her savings on her assisted living. That's what she'll be doing.

But my husband and I have no money to take care of ourselves now. We can't even pay our rent next month. Even if we could find a cheaper place, we have no money to cover a deposit or first/last month's rent. We've blown through our paltry $3000 in savings trying to cover the extra utility bills, insurance on the new cars my mom bought, extra food, extra gas driving her to and from appointments, etc. We literally have nothing.

This is nothing new. We were scraping by in our old 2-bedroom apartment too. The only way we were making ends meet were by using my husband's excess student loan money to help cover our living expenses. But he graduated in October. Now, instead of sending us money, we're going to have to pay his (and my) student loans. He was supposed to get a better job after the MBA, but that's not happening. It's never happened. My H has been at his dead-end job for 15 years without a single promotion and nothing more than a pathetic COL raise once a year. I've been looking for work for years. I can't find anything since I've been out of the workforce for so long. Yesterday, I just got turned down for a minimum-wage job at a company I actually worked for for 5 years. I get turned down for everything I apply for. Apparently, a long period (5 years) of unemployment has made me permanently unemployable.

I'm just feeling very down and hopeless right now. I have no idea what to do.

Have you checked into Hospice? What would happen to your mom if you didn't take her home?

Hospice doesn't provide round the clock care. They provide supplementary care in your home or in the boarding facility or wherever she is living. They basically come to your house once a day and provide assistance with baths, bed changes, medication, etc. once a day for about an hour. That would still leave me responsible for my mom for 23 hours a day. She can barely transfer to a wheelchair. She can't sit up (they have been transporting her to her appointments in a van on a gurney). She can't go to the bathroom and needs to have her diaper changed often. She goes to the bathroom almost constantly. And even now, she still outweighs me by a good 40 lbs. (she was quite overweight to start with).

Good, so she will be comfortable


Whilst this is incredibly traumatic, it cannot possibly be a surprise. How could an extra $400 a month have covered all these costs as well as the increased rent. What arrangement did you come to with your mother about the overhead? And a car? She needs to give you more money. Explain the situation to her just as you have written it here.



Of course you are feeling down. Your mother is dying.

An on-line MBA was never going to get your DH a better job although it might help him to work more effectively at the one he has.

In the meantime, you need to get creative about finding work. This is the low hanging fruit for you. Network in your community to see what opportunities exist for someone with your background. Think creatively, part time maybe. For instance we are starting a charter school here and need some specific skills over the next few months. We are networking rather than advertising because this is a short term assignment. You need to let people know you are available.

I don't know how to do this in light of her current health issues. She is very out of it much of the time. And the thought of trying to talk to her about something serious like this in her current condition seems horrible to me. I'm not even sure if she'll understand, or necessarily stay awake long enough for me to do it. She falls asleep in the middle of saying something constantly and much of what she says often doesn't make sense anymore.

I really hope this doesn't prove to be true, since we went massively into debt in order for him to earn this degree and there is simply no way we will ever be able to pay back his student loans on his current salary.

Networking is a problem for me, since I don't know anyone where we live now. And I don't even know how I'm going to deal with taking care of my 5-year-old, deal with all this stuff with my mom, and work. It's overwhelming just to think about it.

And really, it does nothing to solve my basic problem. My H doesn't meet my need for FS and he never has. Meeting it myself, even if I'm able to pull that off, won't help my feelings for him. Dr. Harley seems to be of the opinion that it is the husband's job to financially support his family, and my H has never done that. After 20 years of this (many of them when I was working too just to make ends meet even though I wasn't enthusiastic about having to do so while raising 4 kids), my love for him has been significantly eroded.

I'm struggling with a lot of unmet needs. We never have SF (my H is impotent and has not been able to meet this need for years). I have a high need for RC, but we don't meet that enough since we have no money and not nearly enough UA time. Conversation is high on my list too, but my H and I have very different interests and I don't find much of our conversation particularly fulfilling.

I'm struggling with the fact that I'm not in love with my H. I want to be very much. But I don't know how to accomplish that if needs go chronically unmet and UA time isn't being met. And really, these aren't problems I can solve by myself. It takes two to make a good marriage.

I don't understand the health an social care arrangements in the USA. Could you explain to me who would be required to pay this money?

Over here, the ill/elderly person would be entitled to be admitted to a care facility, but they would have to use their assets to pay towards that. However, the family is not required to pay. The family cannot be made to pay. The patients assets would be used and when they ran out, or if they did not have any, the taxpayer would pay.

Is it so different over there? What happens if you put your mother in the facility, using her money to pay for it, and after some time your mother's assets run out? Are you made to pay? If you don't have the means to pay, or if there is no family to pay, what happens to the elderly person?

I don't know about CA but here in AR/OK when the money of the patient runs out the government takes all their monthly income (such as Social security) and the supplement the difference for the cost of a nursing home.

Writer do you have Power of Attorney over your Mom? I think you need to get that now. It should be a simple process in her current medical condition.

I don't know what to tell you about your future financial situation. Or your feelings for your dh. I would say to try to not overthink that at this moment. Because you are in extreme crisis dealing with your mom.

What are the rules in your state, writer?

It works pretty much the same way in the US. My mother has enough money to pay for care for a while. After that, Medicaid would take over the payments if she ran out of funds.

Our problem is my husband and I don't have enough money to make it without my mom's contribution to our household income. We moved into our current rental because there was no way we could all live in our old 2-bedroom apartment. My mom agreed to contribute $400 to our household expenses when we moved into the bigger place. The problem is, our expenses went up way more than $400 when we moved here. We were going in the hole every month trying to cover all of the extra costs. Now we have no savings (we literally have $250 in the bank right now) and there's no way we can afford to continue living here if my mom doesn't live with us and contribute to the finances. And because we've drained our bank account trying to cover the additional costs above the $400 a month she was contributing, we can't afford to move to a cheaper place either.

Our monthly rent is $1850 right now. That's about 70% of my husband's take-home pay. Even when my mom was contributing money towards the rent, we were spending 50% of our income on rent alone. We live in an extremely HCOL area. And moving right now isn't an option. There simply isn't anywhere we could move to anyway that would be cheaper and still within commuting distance of my H's work. And nothing he does seems to result in any job offers that would allow us to relocate or stay in our current area and earn more money.

No. Not sure how to go about that. Would I need to consult a lawyer?

From that it seems that you do not have to factor in your mother's care costs. They will be paid for by her until her money runs out, and she will still be cared for after that.

Would you agree that it would probably be best for her to move permanently to a care facility? It sounds to me as if you are dreading caring for her at home, and as if you really don't want to do this - which is fine, if that's how you feel. There is no onus on you to do more than you want to do up to and beyond breaking point, which it sounds as if you've already reached. Do you feel that caring for her in your home is your job because you are her daughter, and do you worry that people will feel badly about you if you do not look after her, or do you really want to do this yourself?

If you can accept that your mother's care costs will be paid for by her, then that leaves the problem of your living in an apartment that you cannot afford.

There is no solution to that other than moving, unless you can afford to take in lodgers to cover the rent - which does not seem feasible in an apartment.

It's that simple. You have to move. You cannot afford to live there so you will have to move.

I'm not opposed to moving. But we have no money to move. We only have $250. We would have to give at least a 30-day notice on our current place. Our rent is due before then, so we would have to come up with the $1850 for rent for the month of December. We don't have it. My H's income isn't going to cover it. Then, we would have to come up with at the very least a security deposit on a new place and 1st months rent. I don't know where to get the money to do that. And, believe it or not, $1850/month is on the low end for rent in our area, and pretty much any area that would be within commutable distance to my H's work. We might be able to find something a little cheaper if we go smaller, but I don't know if it will be cheap enough. Rents have been going up fast in So-Cal for the past two years.

If you are prepared to look after your mother in your home, then get power of attorney over her assets. Then you can use as much as you need to pay your rent, and the rest for her personal care. It's only fair that she should cover the costs involved in having her at home.

Obtain power of attorney anyway, because decisions will have to be made about her income and assets right now, and she is in no position to make them, and her mental faculties will only get worse.

If you take her back home to care for her, you need to make plans for when she dies and you no longer have her income. You won't be able to stay in that apartment. You need to plan ahead in a way that you haven't really done so far. By that I mean: when you agreed (with great reluctance) to move in together with her, you should have insisted on a proper contribution from her, or you should have done so once you realised that $400 would not cover your costs.

What happens if you stay there and do not pay the rent?

It was our goal to care for her ourselves, at least as long as possible. It's only been 5 weeks since her diagnosis, so we certainly thought it would be possible for her to stay home longer than this. The oncologist originally gave her about a year to live. He didn't say she would spend a year confined to bed, incontinent, and unable to meet any of her own needs. Her decline happened suddenly and unexpectedly and we really don't know why. I don't even know if her life expectancy has changed, though judging by her condition, I assume it will be less than a year at this point. I've asked the doctors, but I don't seem to be getting much in the way of straight-forward answers.

It isn't that I don't want to care for her at home. I just don't know if I can do it. My H is gone 12 hours a day for work (9 hours of work and 3 hours of commuting). My DS21 has been here helping, for the past few months, but he's leaving on Monday to start a new job in Colorado. That still leaves DS19 to help, but he has ADHD, a behavior disorder, and is more of a burden than a help. I also have DD5 to care for. It's a little overwhelming to think about caring for my mom at home under these circumstances when she can no longer walk or really meet any of her own needs. She is almost completely dependent at this point.

I do feel bad for feeling like I can't properly care for her at home. I don't really care what anyone else thinks. But she is my mom and she has no other family to help out.

When we moved in together, we never could have imagined she would be diagnosed with a terminal illness less than six months later. We weren't prepared for that, it's true. I mean, we knew she'd get older and we'd have to deal with health issues eventually, but we had no idea it would be so soon. My mom is only 65.

We did talk to her about increasing the $400. But she didn't want to touch any of her savings in the bank. She was trying to live off only the $700/month she received in SS. Impossible, I know. Which lead to us having to contribute way more to the household expenses than we could possibly afford. Which brings us to our current situation, where we have no money left and can no longer pay the bills.

But few people would have the ability to care for a seriously ill person at home. That is why we have hospitals and care homes. Do you think that having her cared for in a good quality care home, with frequent visits from you, would be a bad thing? Do you think it's wrong to come to that decision? I'm not talking talking about leaving her alone in an apartment, after all.

We get evicted? I don't know how long that would take, but I'm assuming that would be the end result.

And after an eviction, along with our bankruptcy last year, we'd probably never find another apartment. It was hard enough finding one after a bankruptcy only.

You gave her the right to dictate that she would live with you, and not only that but that she would keep her money and you would subside her living costs. You must see that this cannot go on.

You have to take control of her finances and either use them to pay for her care in a home or to pay for her care in your home, including a proper contribution towards the rent.

No, I don't think that's bad.

It's just weird, because the places we're being referred to are basically just regular houses owned by RN's or professional caregivers. They don't look much different than our house, and the level of care they provide is similar to what one could do at home. I'm guessing they may have more than one nurse/caregiver, since I don't see how one person could do that 24/7 alone for 6 different patients on average.

The next level of care is a skilled nursing facility. But those are double the cost of the boarding care facilities. At that rate ($5500+/month) my mother's savings would run out a lot faster.

This is probably the only solution.

I just need to figure out how to handle it from a legal standpoint.

The alternative to moving - not moving - is therefore worse.

You have to act before that happens. If your mother moves back in it's not so critical, but she might not be well enough to do that, or not for long. Start working on a move before you are evicted and in an even worse position.

The problem of course with moving at this point is that it would take away any possibility of my mother ever being able to come home again, even if her condition improves. We would have to move into a much smaller place in order to find something we could afford. There's no way we would have room to care for her if we ended up back in a tiny 2-bedroom apartment like we were in before.

And right now, the doctors can't tell us what's going to happen. They don't know if the treatments are going to work and improve her quality of life and ability to function or not. It's kind of a wait and see game.

Tomorrow, make an appointment with a lawyer and find out how power of attorney is done. Eventually, you'll pay the legal bill with your mother's money

I'll be blunt, writer1. This is the least of your problems right now. Let that one go.

YOu are in a crisis. I'm sorry.

writer1, I read almost daily, rarely post, but I feel compelled to post to you. I am so sorry for what you are going through with your mother. Cyber hugs are so little, yet all I have to offer. You are in my prayers.

Thank you. It really is very much appreciated.

She sounded a little better when I spoke to her on the phone tonight. She was able to talk coherently for about twenty minutes. I know it isn't much, but I'll take it.

Writer, you can download a generic Power of Attorney form from the Internet. It would more than likely would have to be witnessed and notarized. Does your mom have any life insurance? The reason I ask is that when my husband's cancer came back for the last time and his only income was SS because he was too sick to work, we were able to apply for accelerated benefits from his life insurance, which saved our financial situation for awhile.

It was a very small policy that I had purchased through my job. We only took 1/2 of it to use for living expenses, and the remaining $$ paid for his funeral. That $$ was non-taxable and we had to have a written diagnosis from the doc that he only had six months to live. It was really a simple process-- just a matter of filling out some forms and having a doc sign off on the diagnosis. it took about two weeks to complete.

With power of attorney, you could request the benefit on her behalf. Just a thought.

Just make sure you have all the t's crossed and I's dotted to prevent delay of the disbursement. Follow up with phone calls to let them know how dire the situation is. You really have to stay on top of the insurance company to get it pushed through quickly.

Unfortunately, the only life insurance policy my mom has is $1000 one that she bought probably 30-40 years ago. And it wasn't the kind that grew in value with time, so it's still only worth $1000.

I'm learning so many lessons from this experience about planning ahead.

It may only have a $1,000 redemption value back at the life insurance company but you can sell it. There are investors who do this. If your mother has only a few months left, you should be able to get almost the full insured (face) amount of the policy. I suggest you see if there is a local charity in your area that can advise you on this.

Ok writer

Yes, get power of attorney, ASAP. Also make sure you have living directives, medical power of attorney and all of that set up.

Do you know about all of her checking accounts, savings accounts, where her will is, etc. Do you know who the executor is on the will? Does she happen to have any IRA's anywhere?? Savings bonds?

I was very lucky. I filed all of my dad's financial papers when he moved here ( helped me make sure he was current on his bills and he wouldn't do it). He had a little box where he kept all of his important papers: wills, life insurance, etc. So it was a lot easier than it could be. His will still had my uncle as executor because I was only 10 or so when it was written. My uncle turned over his rights to me because he lived so far away and my sister was fine with it. That said, I was surprised at some of the assets he had like savings bonds. He died 5 years ago now, but just this past summer a bank tracked me down about an IRA that I guess my dad forgot he had. It was from when my parents were still married and my mom was the beneficiary so she got the money even though they had divorced and he had remairred and divorced again. That was fine. I didn't need it and I figured it was payment for the horrible 25 years she spent with him. In your case, I probably would have tried to see if I could receive it somehow.

It isn't fun and I'm not sure exactly how lucid your mom is right now, but you have got to have this hard conversation so you can be prepared.

I do have the info for her bank accounts. My name is even on these accounts.

I know she has no other assets. My mother worked in fast food and at the height of her career, she was earning $9.50/hr. and bringing home around $1000/month. At one time, she had a small 401k plan, but she cashed that in several years ago when she broke her ankle and had to quit work and go on disability. That money is long gone. Other than the insurance policy and the money from the sale of my grandmother's house, my mother has nothing. And the insurance policy is supposed to be used for her cremation expenses after she passes away. It won't even cover all of that. I know because we just went through this with my grandmother last February and she had the exact same policy, also no other assets except for her house.

Hi writer I hope you all get through this okay. Did you send the letter for the radio? It sounds like your situation has got you both way down and you both would benefit from having a fresh set of eyes to look at the situation and help you two get on the same page and make a long term plan you both can get excited about.

I talked to a friend who said her parents set up a "Special Needs Trust." Their estate attorney advised them to do it so that a stay in a nursing home would not wipe out their assets.

She said you can probably get a free phone consultation with an estate attorney to see if anything can still be done. A special needs trust with you as the decision maker might make your mom eligible for medicaid for nursing home costs and have her money available to use for her "special needs," which is a legal term that means whatever you all wanted to use it for.

These need to be done YEARS ahead of time. There are "look back" rules (used to be 3 years). Medicaid will look back 3 years through all financial records BEFORE granting medicaid benefits to see if the family/patient hid money and/or assets. Attorneys can even be prosecuted for helping families/patients illegally hide assets. Sure you may be able to do a little of this if there's hardly any money and she pays you reasonable monies for the care you give her OR if you had a bunch of money to pay creative risk taking attorneys as well as a bunch of money to hide. I'm not thinking that is the case here.



It's not a horrible idea to seek counsel in your state and your area. Medicaid is a federal program so I doubt the rules are that different out there but I'm not presuming to know what I don't know. It's probably too late to protect much of it and then there's the problem of getting into a facility. Many facilities only give medicaid beds to established "residents" that first private paid for a time. Medicaid bed availability walking in off the street can be very difficult in some places.

As far as such trust meaning you can spend her money on "whatever you all wanted to use it for" sounds a little like a elder abuse and theft. A trustee of a special needs trust has a fiduciary duty to protect and use the assets of the trust for the benefit of the beneficiary(ies). Doing "whatever you like with the money" is a breach of that obligation and a violation of the law. This is a criminal. Your friend sounds a little unscrupulous, Ned...if her parent is still living I'd have you consider reporting her to adult protective services.


Sorry to read about this predicament...what a tough spot. You guys should just leave and go somewhere else where the jobs are more plentiful and the cost of living is much less. We are praying for you writer.

Mr. Wondering

Sorry it came out that way. It sounds legitimate to me recoup the costs of moving to a larger place and the new vehicle as writer needed to transport her mom and didn't have reliable transportation before.

Unfortunately, this simply won't be possible until after my mother passes away. I can't just leave her and there's no way we'd be able to move her very far in her condition.

I'm not sure if it's quite the same, but I think my mom and uncle did something very similar to this with my grandmother's house before my grandmother passed away. They had a trust set up and transferred the title of the house out of my grandma's name and into my mother's and uncle's names. It only cost about $3000 to do it. They did it expressly to protect the home from having to be sold in order to pay for my grandmother's care. In their case, my grandmother never got to the point where she needed Medi-Cal (that's what they call it here in CA). She was in a skilled nursing facility that was being paid for by Medicare for three weeks, they sent her home, and she passed away three days later. The transfer of the home only went through a week before her death.

I don't know if it would work the same with liquid assets in a bank.

No worries Ned, I know we are all trying to come up with unique solutions to writer's predicament as best we can. At least this situation helped you identify a friend you'd never want to name the trustee or executor of any of your assets. Heck, if it's a neighbor take back your spare key immediately. There are lots of people that prey on the elderly as though their parents money is already their inheritance. In the very least, just be careful of that friend, she's already told you who she is.


Writer needs ethical solutions. She could certainly get mom to help out some short term, if mom is of sound mind and still capable of making her financial decisions. A power of attorney would certainly be wise and one can find a state specific form on line.

The look back rules, I believe, were promulgated in the '90's to prevent exactly what they did. For a fee anything can be attempted and done. Doesn't mean the Feds (or State) won't catch on and send you a bill later on and/or prosecute anyone they can catch trying to illegally hide assets. If it was attorney's that did it post the year 2000 they likely made them sign off on all sorts of hold harmless stuff explaining the riskiness of their legal position for doing what they did.

Small amounts of cash shouldn't be much of a bother later on. She could have spent HER money on groceries, rent and lotto tickets. The feds and state aren't concerned about that.

Over here, there are legitimate ways of legally transferring assets so that they fall outside one's estate, for inheritance tax and care-home reasons. However, the assets must really be transferred, and not at the last minute. Parents can't for example, transfer the deeds to the house into the children's names and then continue to live there. Additionally, in order for the assets fully to fall outside the estate, they must have been transferred seven or more years before the death - and longer in the case of care home fees. There is a tapering figure of tax for deaths between seven and three years of the transfer, and if the death was within three years of the transfer of assets, the full inheritance tax will be payable with no reductions.

The tax department and the local authorities who provide care homes will look back through the individual's finances and penalise anybody that cannot prove that they genuinely gave away the assets. There are similar provisions to make sure that trust funds are genuine.

The authorities will not allow people to exploit the laws on taxes and income to simply avoid paying the legitimate taxes and charges. If it were that simple nobody would ever pay tax!

A neighbour of mine and her mother transferred the deeds of the house from mother to daughter and they all continued living together as before. A lawyer signed off on that deal, of course. He never told her that when the mother died the Inland Revenue would include house in the mother's estate for inheritance tax purposes - which is what happened. My neighbour had an unexpected and nasty bill to pay after her mother died, and her lawyer apparently never warned her that she could not buck the system at will.

I'm not a lawyer, that's for sure.

I can only tell you that my uncle and mother did in fact have my grandmother's house placed in a trust in their names a few weeks before she died. My grandmother did return to the house to live until she passed away. They then sold the house, the sale went through in June, and my mom and uncle split the money from the sale. Neither of them had to pay estate taxes, since the value of the home was below the threshold for that. I'm not sure what that number is that is exempt from taxes, but I believe it is in the millions. They also never received any bills from Medicare for my grandmother's care or for the 3 weeks she spent in a skilled nursing facility.

Well - that's why they did not have to pay taxes, and there would have been a legal reason for the lack of Medicare bills. You need to check what the rules are for your state, but they surely won't allow people easily to avoid legitimate taxes and charges.

Here, the threshold for inheritance tax is �325,000, which is well below the value of my home, so there'd be taxes to pay on that:

"The Inheritance Tax threshold (or 'nil rate band') is the amount up to which an estate will have no Inheritance Tax to pay.
If the estate - including any assets held in trust and gifts made within seven years of death - is more than the threshold, Inheritance Tax will be due at 40 per cent on the amount over the nil rate band. From 6 April 2012 people who leave 10 per cent or more of their net estate to charity can choose to pay a reduced rate of Inheritance Tax of 36 per cent."

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/rates/iht-thresholds.htm

You should be able to look up quite a lot online, writer. You urgently need to look into these issues, and make plans.

You said "medicare"....medicare is an paid in entitlement. It is healthcare for seniors. The look-back rules don't apply to MEDICARE they apply to disbursements by MEDICAID which is care provided to the disable and indigent.

It doesn't sound like your grandmother incurred any "Medicaid" expenses...so nobody is the wiser.

There's another issue...when you apply for medicaid support and have to list your assets you can exclude your home as long as there is a chance you can go back to your home. Your grandmother did and actually passed away there. However, when people rack up big medicaid bills and then die...the states are supposed to go after the Estates to repay the medicaid bills.

Elder Law attorney's may be doing all sorts of creative things to avoid these issues including just making it hard for the government to figure out where things went and when. If the government doesn't know...don't tell them kind of stuff. If your mother has inherited hundreds of thousands of dollars....she could be paying you handsomely for the care you provide. She could pay the entire rent and it'll be ok as it'll be cheaper than a nursing home for sure. She should also be taken to an Estate Plan/Elder Law attorney as NED mentioned to figure out what options you have in your state and to get some real good power of attorney documents done versus stop gap forms downloaded from the internet.

I'm trying, but my mother calls me constantly complaining that the nurses at the rehab facility where she's currently at aren't doing anything. She's called three times today. This afternoon, they gave her insulin at noon and never brought her lunch, and she's supposed to eat within 30 minutes of receiving her insulin. I had to call the facility and get someone to bring her some food. Add onto that the boarding care facilities I have to call, the calls to her oncologist to try to line up TPN feedings because she isn't getting adequate nutrition by mouth, the appeal process I'm going through to try to keep the rehab facility from discharging her tomorrow when we haven't even figured out where she'll be going, etc., etc., etc.

I'm going crazy here. I literally have done nothing for the past three days in a row except deal with all of this insanity. I don't know how much longer I can take it. And my H is being a PITA. He's just making things worse by telling me all of our financial problems are my fault because I won't sit down with him and try to figure out how we can possibly survive on his current salary in a HCOL area we can't possibly afford to live in on what he makes.

How much money does Mom have???

Mom's options are limited...she can help you more financially and with a move to better housing (like a duplex where she can live next door) OR pay $1,000's a month of rent at sub-par care facilities like the rehab place.

$130K or so.

My mother is completely incapable of living on her own even if we were in a duplex next door. She needs assistance with everything. If we bring her home, I will have to help her in and out of bed to her wheelchair, change her diaper dozens of times a day since she literally never stops having bowel movements, change her bed everyday, fix all of her meals, care for her kidney tubes, bathe her in bed, and drive her to her appointments (that is, if I can get her in and out of the car, since she has been getting transports to these appointments via gurney at the rehab place).

The rehab place is being paid for by Medicare. If we move her to a place where we're paying for it, we'll definitely choose something better.

You husband is not a pita, it is very sensible to think again if things are not working out as planned. Sorry to say so, because you must be going through a gruesome time, BUT
you have to make some tough decisions here if you want to save your marriage from financial ruin. Eve r ybody is giving you awesome advice and you have to start doing what is sensible instead of letting your mom ruin your family financially.

To me it is beyond comprehension that she is dying and is still not willing to spend her savings on her health at her daughter's expence. You are not doing anyone a favor by sacrificing your family. Your mother needs care, but she cannot demand that you sacrifice the future of your children for money she won't be needing a year from now.

Our financial problems have nothing to do with my mother. This particular situation may involve her, but financial issues have plagued my entire marriage. I can't blame it all on my mother.

We've never been financially stable. We've had our home foreclosed on. We've gone through a bankruptcy. My H has had the same job for 15 years, with nothing more than the occasional COL raise. He's been denied dozens of promotions. He's applied for literally thousands of jobs and never gotten a single job offer. We live in a HCOL area and he blames me for not being able to make the numbers work on his salary. I've tried. But when your rent alone is at least 50% of your income and there isn't cheaper housing available that would be close enough to his work for him to commute, I don't know how to do it.

Well then, but you cannot walk into your demise with open eyes?! Something has got to give.

He is facing reality. Instead of thanking him, you are refusing to sit down and work this out with him? I know life is really tough for you at the moment but you have to see that you need to find a way to do what he is asking.

Either that or leave the marriage.

1. Are you her only child?

2. The going rate for that kind of care is OVER $3,000 per month.

If you have siblings that stand to possibly inherit any left over monies you might, in time, and after talking to an attorney, discuss with them that they can either take mom in themselves OR you might but if you do you will be charging mom a little less than the going rate at a crappy nursing facility AND paying for some outside help from time to time.

Sounds like this could be the perfect job you thought you couldn't find...getting paid $20 - $30,000 a year or so (plus expenses) to take care of your mother until you are no longer able to do so.

Again, if your sibling(s) object....they can take on mom themselves instead and get paid too. You'll be her power of attorney by the time you have that conversation anyway.

I am an only child.

My main concern about bringing my mom home is how much care she is going to require. She has to have her diaper changed a lot and I don't have the strongest stomach on earth. I will have to provide all of her care 24/7. My H can help when he's home, but he's gone 12 hours a day.

$20-$30K a year doesn't seem like much when you're working 24/7 around the clock. And I still have my 5-year-old to take care of. I'm am solely responsible for her during the day too, including transporting her to and from school. Not sure how I would manage that if I can't leave my mom alone.

Then there are all of the other MB requirements. It's going to be pretty difficult to get in 15 hours of UA time if my H and I can never leave the house together. We haven't had any UA time at all in almost a week. It takes its toll, especially when the marriage isn't strong to begin with.

Mr W's plan also involved outside help. Can you get in outside help which will cover UA time with your mother's money? Since you don't think she will last out the year, her savings should do that.

Another person being paid as a live in help maybe? Another salary on top of yours would only take up 60k at most of her 130k. The rest should be used to cover additional expenses. Put some of it aside for her funeral.

Maybe this isn't a long term plan but you need to figure out a way to pay the rent before you are all made homeless.

That is an urgent situation, writer. You either need to use her money to pay the rent, pay for her care or you need to go elsewhere where you can both get jobs. I know that isn't ideal but you can't help anyone if you're homeless, so make that the PRIORITY.

It's all very nice to say she doesn't want her savings touched but the reality is, she's ran you into the ground with her lack of foreplanning for ill health. How can it possibly benefit her if her sole relative goes under and is no longer able to help her?
You do have to figure out how to pay the rent, writer. Your husband isn't wrong to ask you to sit down and do that.



But if he is following a plan you both agreed on, applying for jobs and getting more qualified, then it isn't his 'fault' either. His being a sole provider in a high COL area is a plan you both take responsibilty for.

If your plan isn't working, then you should make a new one!

No one is saying it's your mothers 'fault' but she has put you in a dreadful bind where you cannot easily move now.

It was her responsibility to save and plan for old age, not yours. Similarly it is not your H's responsibility to provide you with FS and unilaterally make that happen without your input. You've known for years that extra help for the cost of living in your area was needed and need to now look at how you can do that.

Your mother passed the financial buck to you and now it is getting passed on to your H. Really, that needs to stop. She has to provide funds and you need to play an active role in an entirely new plan.

The real important thing is not to get overwhelmed. I know how hard that feels, but you can do it.

If her calls are constantly interuppting you you need to call someone high up, tell them the complaints and oversights which have been happening and tell them you expect them to be resolved. I'd call them in the morning and tell them in advance to do what do what you need them to do. Speak to your mother at the same time and make sure she knows you're on it and there's no need to call you. That you will call her in x hours. Do some work for a few hours and then call back and make sure it's been done.



Honestly, I think it is a great idea that you two sit down and figure this out. I'd go somewhere quiet and pleasant where he cannot love bust or 'blame' you and attempt to figure this thing out in an emergency meeting of minds.

I'd bring a big legal pad and brainstorm with abandon all sorts of things until you hit on a solution. Au pair? Selling stuff to pay this month up and buy some time? Moving and managing her care with trips home and phone calls? Starting a business if no jobs are apparent? Really brainstorm.

His idea of cutting down living expenses seems eminently sensible. You say you've 'tried' but it isn't your sole responsibility to do that. The two of you are responsible for coming up with a budget and both sticking with it.

It's obvious that he needs to be included in the loop there. Even if outgoing costs are cut down to the bone, then he needs to sit down with you and be shown that.

Worst case scenario, he will agree with you that costs are cut as much as they can be. Then he will be informed and motivated to try a new plan. Hopefully together.

Best case scenario, he will see something you haven't that will save costs and help you both manage better.

I don't like this set up where it is 'his' job to find cash and 'your' job to manage it. You both need to make joint agreements on how you do everything.

x2

It feels as if you are trying to set him up to fail and then blaming him when he does. It is not a path to happiness.

Since you are the only child there really isn't anyone to likely cause you much problems. See other siblings often object when one of the kids spends "their" inheritance on anything, including the parent's legitimate expenses. You don't have to deal with that. Meaning, a trust may not be necessary at all. With a year, more or less, left to live it's not likely she'll make it beyond the 3 year look-back period so, PERHAPS, your best bet is to get the cash out of her estate legitimately using a simple durable power of attorney.

Your problems are so complex that you need to break things down to mini-crisis resolutions. I think step one is to get your Mom to sign a durable power of attorney effective immediately giving you the power to manage her monies. If I recall you said they were in a joint account anyway but I'd still feel more comfortable if you had a Power of Attorney. I presume your mom remains competent enough to sign her name and understand the nature of the document she is signing giving you the authority to basically manage all her financial affairs. If so...get it done (along with a power of attorney relating to health care specific to your state so you can make medical decisions on her behalf). That's step one. Here's a link to an online California form that is probably good enough (you should see an attorney in your state to know for sure). It even includes specifically a right to compensation. CA DPOA

*Also...don't bother asking people at any health care facility to witness or notarize any legal documents....they should have all been trained to decline since it can get their facilities in trouble when they witness clearly incompetent persons signing legal documents in such settings. You'll probably need to take Mom to the bank or an attorney to find a witness and/or willing Notary.

Step Two - prepare an itemized bill for the care you already provided her and pay yourself from your mom's money so you can pay this and next months rent, some bills and some groceries. Immediately...you need to buy yourself some time to sort out this crisis with your husband.

Step Three - Brainstorm with your husband how to change your lives together. Mom's money COULD pay for you to relocate with her to a place with a lower cost of living AND maybe a facility across the street that can look after her for you. These could likely be combined with job opportunities.

As the only child and sole heir to mom's estate you likely feel that it's only a matter of time before you inherit her money (which hopefully isn't all "wasted" on her care) and THEN skies will brighten. I say do it now...with mom. If you provide her care....then pay yourself handsomely and if she survives longer than expected by then her estate will be depleted and she'll likely qualify for Medicaid assistance. Just keep up on your documentation and receipts so that any federal official that sticks his/her nose into your mom's finances the last few years will see a well documented reasonable depletion of her funds for her benefit.

My last point about UA time with your husband...any job you would have obtained would have interfered with that as well. You need to find a way to make it work and get help (paid help) so you can manage. Ultimately, once things are sorted out it sounds like she's going to need a nursing home or hospice anyway. There will come a point where you just can't provide the end stage help that she needs and you'll need to pay professionals to handle that (with mom's money). Hopefully, you and your husband will have things sorted by then.

Thank you Indie and Mr. W.

I am reading and absorbing everything, but have little time to respond at the moment.

I'm going to look into the durable power of attorney ASAP.

Today, we are waiting to see if my mom is going to be admitted to the hospital to start TPN, since she is barely eating and her labs haven't been where they need to be for her to receive her chemo. We are also meeting with her oncologist today. Hopefully, he'll be able to give us some answers.

I look at my mom and how much her condition has declined over the past two months and I wonder how things can possibly get any worse. Then everyone tells me they will. I can't even imagine what worse would look like at this point.

If you said the money is in a joint account...

withdraw your rent payment.

Keep a folder of bills you pay on her behalf and draw up a quick one page bill of the amount she owes you for her care. Staple the withdrawal slip receipt to such bill.

...immediate problem of rent solved so you and your husband can focus on the other immediate issues.

If it is not joint...get that DPA signed asap and then make the account joint so you don't have to take the account through the probate court when she dies.

Writer1,

please listen to Mr W's advice, which is extremely to the point.
You have to survive this as a family in one piece.

Please realize that is possible that your mom will live considerably shorter or longer than doctors anticipate at this time, depending on how fast her cancer grows and spreads.

May God give you strength during this time.

Do Mr W's plan, its brilliant!

I don't have a lot of time, but just a quick update.

Friday, I got a call from the rehab hospital where my mom was staying. They said they couldn't order the TPN, which they wanted her on. So their plan was to send her to the ER, have me meet her there, then have me attempt to convince the doctors at the hospital (one she'd never been to before) to admit her and start TPN. I immediately realized how ridiculous it was for them to expect me to do this. I'm not sure why they ever thought having me try to tell doctors who don't know anything about my mom or her condition how to do their job was ever going to work.

So, I called my mom's primary care physician. She agreed with me and we both set to work trying to get my mom moved to a skilled nursing facility in our city (she was about 13 miles away in a different city) so her own doctor could take over her care. Before we could do so, the rehab hospital where my mom was sent her via ambulance to the hospital. So, I had to go there, pick her up, bring her to the new facility in my car (even though she hadn't sat up or ridden in a car for 2 weeks). She was finally admitted to the new rehab place and able to see her own doctor for the first time in almost a month.

Her doctor is amazing. I love her. She finally sat down with us and had an honest discussion about what's going on with my mother and the cancer. Up until this point, every doctor has refused to be straight with us and actually say "You are dying." That finally happened. She told my mother that she doesn't have to actually have these radiation and chemo treatments if she doesn't want to. No one had ever said that before. She told her they probably won't help and they could very likely make her feel a whole lot worse, which we've known because it has been happening, but have never been able to get a doctor to admit before. So, my mother made the decision to quit the chemo and radiation. And, in her case, I support her decision.

Right now, she is still at the new rehab place (which is so much better than the old one). Not sure if she will stay there or come home. We are looking into getting her placed in the hospice program this week. I will also be looking into getting the durable power of attorney.

It feels like a huge weight has been lifted from my shoulders. Even though it's horrible, it is so much easier having a medical professional who is willing to have the difficult discussions and let you know what all of your options are so that you can make an informed decision about what is best for you individually. Why this didn't happen 6 weeks ago when all of this started is beyond my ability to comprehend.

Writer dear, I am so glad your doctor was open and upfront with you. We had this very same conversation with my husband's oncologist when his cancer came back. It was a choice of trying chemo to MAYBE shrink the tumor, for a while, but surgery was out of the question, and the chemo would have made him suffer that much more. The doc actually said I wish I could send ALL my patients into hospice early on, but as long as they are receiving any life sustaining treatment, he couldn't. He knew it was the end of the battle for my husband. He went into Home Hospice a week later. The hardest thing was we thought we had 6-18 months, but he only lasted four months. It was horrible.

I know you are relieved, but I warn you, this is not going to be easy. Treasure your time with her, get plenty of photos, etc, because all you will have left are the memories and the photos, after she's gone. The $$ won't even matter.

I am so sorry.

Thank you princessmeggy. I know it isn't going to be easy. And I don't know how much time we have left, but I am going to treasure every moment. Luckily, my mom is now only 2 miles from our home, so I can go see her whenever I want. We went up yesterday and took pictures of grandma with some of the grandkids. DS21 is leaving for Colorado tomorrow, so I wanted to get some pictures of him with her before he left.

I'm very glad to hear that your doctor levelled with your Mom. Wishing you strength in the days ahead.

Don't forget to pay attention to your DH, too.

We went out on a date last night. I even managed to stay mostly awake the entire time, which is about the best I can promise at the moment.

Writer 1

Stopping treatment is probably the wisest decision your mother could have made. Thank God that you have such a good primary care physician. Many if not most people who go through palliative chemotherapy and other treatments only experience the side effects and complications and end up losing quality of life in their last months. To be honest, I highly doubt if your mother makes it through the year. From what you tell, it might as well be half a year or less. Doctors tend to overestimate life expectancy in cancer patients.

As hard as it is, try to dose your strength around the important aspects of your life. And writing down your extra expenditure on a piece of paper (like driving to the hospital again) with receipts, like Mr Wondering says is a good idea.

Writer, (((hugs))) to you, what a roller coaster. I'm so relieved for you all that you are finally getting some respite.

So, the latest dilemma.

As my mom leaves rehab and enters hospice, we basically have three choices:

1) She comes home and we hire a home healthcare aide for $5000-$6000 a month (24/hr. care, which her doctor feels will be necessary, but may be impossible for us since it would require us to provide a room for the caregiver and with 5 people living in a 3-bedroom house, we just don't have one).

2) We place my mother in a boarding care facility where she will get round-the-clock care by a qualified caregiver for $2500-$3000 a month.

3) She stays in the facility she is in now as a skilled nursing patient and receives around-the-clock care by a medical team for $6000 a month.

We were very much hoping that my mother would choose Option 2. But she chose Option 1. She wants to come home. And since we can't legally hire a 24/7 caregiver because of lack of space, my mother wants me to be her primary caregiver with only the hospice to help out (visits 5 days a week for 1-2 hours maximum). We could hire a part-time caregiver during the day, but that runs $20/hr., so we would be paying the same for 10 hours of care as someone else would for 24 hours of care.

My options seem extremely limited. If I bring my mother home and assume primary responsibility for her care, I will essentially have to give up my entire life. I know how demanding this is going to be from the time I've spent with her in the rehab facility, where she is literally asking me to do things for her constantly the entire time I'm there. She repeatedly acknowledges that this is "going to be a lot of work for me..." but it doesn't seem to bother her in the least to have this expectation.

If I put my mother into the boarding care against her will, my husband and I will be in immediate financial dire straights, as I can't expect my mother to contribute financially to a household she no longer lives in because I won't allow her to. We have no money at all, so even moving to a cheaper place wouldn't be an option.

I am feeling so dejected and hopeless right now. I don't have any idea what to do.

I hate the fact that I have to be obsessing about money constantly, but our rent is due in four days and we have no money to pay it.

writer, I would let her know that you support option #2, not option #1 and ask her if she will contribute to your rent. Let her know your dire straits, but also let her know you can't do option #1. Your mother does not get to make decisions about your life too. Don't give her that option.

I had this exact conversation with her tonight. The problem is, she's really out of it. I keep repeating things over and over again, but I think she's only processing about 20-30% of what I say. She actually falls asleep in the middle of having a conversation. And much of the time, when I ask her a question, she doesn't answer at all.

If I had known things were going to go downhill this fast, I would have gotten all of this straightened out so much sooner. But they told us we had a year. Two weeks ago, my mom was walking around the house, not very fast but she was walking. She was sleeping a lot and having issues with pain, but mentally she was fine. Now she can't even sit up by herself.

Things are happening so fast, my head is spinning.

Make the decision for her and tell her it is going to be option #2. writer, at some point you have to stop letting life happen to you and do what is best for all. I did this with my own father in the end. Your mother is out of it and can't make decisions in her best interest.

I know. I know Option #2 is best for everyone involved. I just don't know what to do about our expenses. I'm going to have no choice but use some of the money in my mom's saving's account to help pay our rent this month. And I feel horrible about doing that if she wants to come home and I say no.

We never should have agreed to only allow her to contribute $400 a month. Our expenses went up so much more than that when we moved here, and we blew through all of our savings trying to pay for everything when she refused to contribute more than the $400.

Don't feel horrible, writer. It is the right thing to do. You can't let your family crash and burn. Just go do the right thing and keep good records like MrW suggested. I know it is hard, but you have to make these decisions for your mother and for your family. Unfortunately, it all falls on your shoulders.

Thanks Melody. I know I have to do it. And I know I'm not abandoning my mother. I'm going to make sure she is taken care of. And she'll only be a few miles away. I'll be able to see her everyday. I have to keep reminding myself that this is what's best for her too. I want her to receive the care she needs and I don't think it's possible for that to happen in our home.

It just really sucks that I have to do all of this by myself. I feel so unprepared. I've never wanted a sibling more than I do right now.

I understand completely! I have scads of brothers and sisters and found myself all alone when it came to taking care of my dad in his last days. Since there is no instruction guide I had to just use my best judgement and do what I felt was right. That is all you can do too, my friend.

I agree your mother won't get the best care in your home. You are doing the right thing for her.

CANCER SUCKS!

Seriously, this is just the most horrendous thing anyone could ever imagine. My mother is in constant pain and suffering. She can't eat. She throws up day and night. She is confused. Nothing the doctor gives her does anything about any of this. It just doesn't seem possible to make her comfortable at this point.

They say we have maybe a month left at best. I simply can't imagine doing this for another month.

She is in hospice now. She was moved to a boarding care facility yesterday. She called me three times in the middle of the night. The attendants at the boarding care said she spent the entire night pushing her button. They would go in, try to put her nasal cannula for her oxygen back in every time she pulled it out, empty her bucket every time she threw up, do their best to make her comfortable. She kept threatening to get out of bed even though she can't get up anymore. She even called 911 at one point, but she didn't know where she was, so they didn't come. This morning she was begging me to take her to the hospital. But I know there's nothing they can do for her there. She is fighting this process and making it harder on herself and everyone else, and I don't know how to help her.

Ugh. I really just needed to vent. I feel so helpless most of the time. I don't even know what to do.

Morphine. Tell her to keep asking.

They have her on Methadone right now, once every 8 hours, in addition to Percocet, whenever she asks for it. Obviously not working.

Also, lorazepam for anxiety. Given many times to hospice patients in conjuction with morphine.

So sorry you are going through this, writer...

It sounds like she could be having a reaction to the methadone. I'm very surprised they aren't giving her morphine along with anti-anxiety meds, since it's hospice. My husband didn't need or get morphine until the final day of his life, but he wasn't as agitated as your mom sounds. He was able to get by with hydrocodone, phenegram?, and anti-anxiety meds. Confusion and delirium can also be caused by dehydration. Everyone is different though. If she won't take her meds orally, can they administer it through IV? Look over the paperwork you and she had to sign when she wad admitted. There should be a patient's rights section. Make the facility live up to their end.

My husband was in home hospice for about three months all the way to the end. It was horrible to watch him suffer, but he was able to get some relief through finding the right medicine combinations, and he was much happier at home with us. It took several different tries and even dismissing one particular hospice nurse. Her replacement was an angel.

Don't be afraid to speak up and demand that they try something different. That's the whole point of hospice, to make the patient as comfortable as possible when there is nothing left to do to treat the disease. You as the family have every right to make sure they are doing everything possible to make your mom comfortable, even if it means trying different drug combinations, or even different caregivers.

I feel bad for you, but I also feel bad for your mom. No one should have to suffer that greatly. Hospice is for the family too. You are in charge, not them. You are the voice for your mom when she isn't capable of helping herself. Contact a patient advocate at the facility. Put your complaints in writing. I've heard too many horror stories and read lawsuits about neglected and mistreated patients in some of these facilities.

I'm so sorry you're going through this. I know firsthand how it feels to watch someone you love die from cancer. It's an awful disease. Your thread triggers my grief but if I can help you I will.

Princessmeggy, thank you for all of the advice.

They did switch my mom's medications yesterday. She is now on morphine, as well as an anit-anxiety med and a sleep med. I haven't spoken with her yet this morning, but no calls in the middle of the night, so I'm hoping that is a good sign. She was much calmer while I was visiting with her yesterday evening. I think what happened was she was admitted into hospice and moved to the boarding house quite late in the day Monday. Hospice was supposed to delivery her meds that night, but they didn't arrive until Tuesday morning. So that first night, all they had was whatever the skilled nursing facility had sent over, and that simply wasn't working.

We went back and forth about bringing my mom here or placing her in the boarding facility. In the end, I just didn't feel as though I could handle having her home. I was afraid of having my 5-year-old have to witness every step of this process and also I just didn't feel capable of providing the level of care she would require on my own. Hospice is great, but they're only with her a couple hours a day. My mother requires a very high level of care. Even two full-time caregivers at the boarding facility are having a hard time meeting all of her needs. I just have no idea how I ever could have done it.

This facility did come recommended by the social worker at the hospice, so I'm hoping it will work out and it was just a matter of getting her medications figured out.

Oh writer, I do understand the dilema, and you were right about a small child watching that. At the end, we sent our grandchildren away because we didn't want them to remember their grandaddy like that.

I'm so glad they got her meds straightened out. That can make a huge difference!

(((writer)))

Writer, I think Princess Meggy means Phenergan (generic known as Promethazine). Phenergan is used to treat nausea. Another medication for nausea is Zofran. I get terrible migraines, and an anti-nausea has helped my pain meds work better because I need less of the pain medication if I can keep the nausea under control. Hope this helps.

You are doing the right thing in protecting your little one from seeing the sickness take over. Know that many of us here are thinking of you and praying for you and your family.

Zofran is the gold standard of nausea meds in my book. Phenergan and Compazine both have some psychological effects, Zofran does not AFAIK.

I, too, get wicked migraines and the nausea meds help me.

Today, mom has been a virtual zombie. She can't seem to wake up at all. I haven't even been able to talk to her on the phone.

So, they are changing the topical Compazine to as needed only (she hasn't thrown up today) and decreasing her Morphine dosage.

Hopefully, we will be able to find a balance between her being in pain and agitated and her being a virtual vegetable.

I agree that if your mother is in unendurable pain, that it dows notmake sense for your daughter to experience that. Otherwise, you can bring your daughter in for a few minutes in moment where your mother will be awake.

Just as we tell children the truth about affairs; illness, death and dying are part of life. Of course it depends on the situation and the individual child. When my grandmother was in the hospital at the end of her life, My mother would visit her and at the end of the visit I would be allowed to go in, which I frankly do not remember. What I do remember though is, that I would be allowed to buy an ice cream at the little shop. And I remember the day my grandmother died. My aunt was reading a book to us and my mother came to tell us that she had died. We were allowed to go into the room and kiss her hand. This I vividly remember.

What I wanted to say is, that when the situation has calmed down, you may want to bring your daughter, depending on her reaction.
I do not feel that the idea of "let the child remember them how they wher when they were healthy" is ideal. To have a family member just disappear.

Just teach her the truth in an age-appropriate manner.


God bless

Happyheart

Keeping a balance will be very difficult, because your mother's needs are changing so fast. That is a big reason why it would have never worked for her to return to your home. I am very sorry you are experiencing this. Both my wife's parents and my father died this way. You will likely know the end is days away when she stops accepting any fluids.

Wiser hon, I'm praying for you and your mom and your family. What a rough time, so sad. I'm grateful you have had the time you had together.

(((Hugs)))

So sorry writer.

My mom passed away early this morning. Today was her 66th birthday. She'd been unresponsive for several days now, but I think she was just holding on long enough to see that milestone.

Mostly I just feel a sense of relief. I'm relieved that she doesn't have to hurt and suffer anymore.

I know I will always miss her. I will always have a void in my life. It's been a rough year, losing both my mom and my grandma. They were my only real family. When I think of the word "parents" those are the two people I think of. They were the ones who raised me, who loved me, who took care of me, stood beside me even when I made stupid mistakes. I guess that's about as close to the definition of a family as one can get.

Thank you everyone here for your hugs, prayers, encouragement, advice, and kind words. They really did help get me through a most difficult time. I appreciate each and every one of you who took the time to post to me and help me through this.

I'm so sorry writer for your loss. You and your family are in my prayers.

I am so sorry, writer. I am glad your mother does not have to suffer anymore.

I'm sorry, Writer. Hugs.

I'm very sorry Writer. Wishing you and your family peace and healing.

I am sorry to hear of the passing of your mother.

I'm so sorry, writer.

I am so sorry Writer. (((Writer)))

Dear writer one,

It is unimaginable what you have had to go through in this short period. You are in my prayer.

Happyheart

I am so sorry to hear this news, writer. Condolences to you and your family.

Just saying I am sorry to hear this just does not even seem sufficient. Hugs to you.

(((writer)))) you and your family are in my thoughts and prayers. I'm glad you got that time with your mom at the end, and that she is at peace now.

Thank you everyone.

Spending time with family today.

I bought a yellow rose (my mother's favorite flower) and it is sitting on our dining room table now in a lovely little pot. I think of her every time I see it.

I am sorry for your loss. The rose sounds like a lovely reminder of your love for your mother.

Hugs and prayers to you in this time.

Oh writer...i am so sorry... (((writer)))

((((((writer))))))))

Thank you everyone.

All of this would be so much easier if it weren't for my 19-year-old son too. He's being absolutely horrible.

He's never had a job, he doesn't go to school. He does nothing but sleep all day. Every time I asked him to baby sit last week when I needed to go be with my mom, he complained and became verbally abusive. I had to have my 24-year-old son drive an hour to come watch DD5 the night before my mom passed away because DS19 refused. Yesterday, after my mother passed away, DS19 took off for 12 hours. This morning, I asked him to baby sit for 2-3 hours so that my DH and I could have a little time alone for the first time in over a week. He got verbally abusive, refused to watch her, and left the house.

I'm just done. He's a terrible person. He expects us to provide him with food and clothing and a free place to live while he hangs out with his friends, skates, and smokes weed all day. He contributes nothing to anyone. He won't do anything if there isn't something in it for him.

I just can't take this anymore. As if all of this wasn't hard enough already, my own son has to make it 100 times worse.

I'm sorry your son is making such a difficult time even worse. You need to put him out of your home. Are you planning to move as soon as possible?

I agree. He's an adult and isn't respecting your rules and your home.

Writer, maybe it's time to stop enabling him. If I were you, I would give him 2 weeks to get out. In that time he can get a job flipping burgers and rent a room nearby. Or he could get a cot at some homeless shelter until he gets his act together. Kicking him out wold be the best thing that ever happened to him.

We were going to give him until January 1st to either get a job or enroll in school full time. But after the way he's been acting this entire week, I told him today as he was leaving not to bother coming back. He can arrange to come pick up his stuff, but he isn't welcome in my home anymore. He is constantly rude and disrespectful to everyone. I just cannot handle having him live here anymore.

SugarCane, we're looking to move ASAP after the holidays. Hoping to get out of CA if DH can find a job. It is just too expensive to live here and I don't like it here. Now, there really isn't any reason for us to stay in this area. DH's parents and sister are still here, but we don't really see them very often. My oldest DS is still here, about an hour away, but DS21 and DD22 are both in Colorado. I would love to move there. It's a beautiful state.

Are there jobs in Colorado? Could your H simply give up his job in CA and you all move there? Don't you have a financial cushion, from your mother, that you could eke out for a while? Your situation in California sounds desperate; you should just get out of there if you possibly can.

Yes, we could do that. It makes me nervous though. It seems that it's easier to find a job when you are currently employed. I've suffered quite a stigma from being unemployed for so long, even though it was a choice for me to stay home and care for my daughter. Employers don't seem to care about that. Of course, my DH's gap in employment would hopefully be much smaller. And it would certainly be easier for him to look for a job if we were in the area where he's looking. Long-distance job searching isn't easy.

Try signing up for the major head-hunter websites in addition to going to the Colorado state job searching website at www.connectingcolorado.com. I hope things work out so that you can move to a new area.

Thanks for the link! I just sent it to my DH.

Is Colorado a low cost of living state? I would think that Texas or Oklahoma would be an easier transition because the COL is very low in addition to very low unemployment. And companies will be busting loose with hiring in February and March. Very few companies are hiring right now.

We aren't only looking in Colorado. My DH is looking all over - Colorado, Oregon, Minnesota, Texas, North Carolina. We know people who live in all of these areas. But we are open to pretty much anything. And most places have a lower COL than So-Cal, so anything would be an improvement over here.

Oh good!! I am glad you are looking everywhere. The COL in OK and Tex is lower than most and the unemployment is very low. For example, you could rent a nice little 3/2/2 around 2000 sq ft in a suburb of OK City or Tulsa for around $1000. You would also have a lot of options for employment because many major companies have offices here.

I am so excited for your future, writer!!

Wow! This is a great step!

Here in OKC, you could get a 2 bedroom apt for about $700 or a house for about the same. As far as job hhunting, go to newsok.com and go to the jobs area. Heck, he could get a job working day shift 7-11 for $11 an hour. Is your husband in good enough shape to apply for the police Academy?

I would also tell your son that he has 4 weeks till he has to be out of the house. Help him fill oout the fafsa for college if he wants to go to school.

Even better if you can find a lower cost of living area than So Cal. Great job keeping your options open!

Email me if you want me to put you intouch with my old employer - They're hiring call center supervisors/back office call center supervisor.

Ask the mods for my contact info. The jobs are either Ohio or North Carolina, possibly Ontario, CA.

Oh writer, hubby and I were away for a long weekend together and I just now read about your mom. I'm so sorry. Since it happened so quickly for you, you may or may not have these weird feelings of being so relieved and yet missing her. Taking care of my father for 6 years, I felt so free not to have that burden anymore and yet I also missed him. A weird dichotomy. Praying for your family. Oklahoma or Texas would definitely be a good choice.

Writer,

what a blessing that your mom was able to have you help her in her final days. It certainly seems that you made the right decision to have her stay where she could get more care, considering how fast her health failed. Your instincts were good.

Best wishes in your next moves, launching your son (however unwillingly) into his adult life, and finding where you will live. Good opportunity to practice POJA. Is his dad in agreement about him moving out?