I am new to this website and forum. I have been reading a lot of the marriage builders information. So I am not sure how this really works, but here goes.

I am almost 11 years older than my husband. He is my second husband. My first was abusive, verbally and physically it was not a good relationship. My husband now is a wonderful person.
We have been married for 12 plus years now. We are military but only have been military for about 4 years now.

I have always been insecure with my looks and have always struggled with self confidence issues. I do feel that there are many things in my past that helped in grain these feelings.

Any way my husband and I do not have very good communication so we found this web site after an issues that recently came up due to my insecurities and lack of trust. Don't get me wrong as far as I know he has never given me a reason to not trust him.

We have had these issues in the past but since he has joined the military I have seem to be struggling more and more as time goes on.

He is a quite/shy kind of person but that has changed a lot over the years. He is still by far not as out going as I am but it has change and is not what was normal in the beginning.

He also works in the medical field so now the majority of co workers are females. This bothers me but I thought I was doing good until our recent move. Now we are located in a foreign where the base is smaller and I am faced with younger women and his interactions all the time. I also feel that we have become more distance that before. I feel that his live is changing and I am getting left behind.

We took the emotional needs questionnaire and have established what our top 5 are and the areas we need to work in but in doing so it brought up some issues with physical attractiveness. That lead me to start asking questions I wished not that I had never asked because I don't know what to do with the information and how to move past it. Here is the information. I asked about how I rated on a scale of 1-10 with not emotions involved just physical features. Back when we meet he rated me a 9 but now I am an 8. I also had him rate others that he worked with luckily I rated higher than they did but still. I also asked why did is seem that he is always noticing other women more now than when we first got together? He stated that you can not help but notice, that is what guys do they look. Then I ask why take a second look? He said that when he looks it is not in a sexual nature the compared it to looking or noticing a nice car or sports car. You look because you like looking at those features. So I asked, so you are telling me that you enjoy looking at other women. His answer is yes, but not in a sexual way. So this right now is my biggest issue. Knowing that he is looking at other women and enjoying it, but supposedly not in a sexual way. Is that even possible? And that I am only an 8 in his eyes...I know that probably sounds selfish but does not ever women want to feel that her husband would rate her as a 10 even though we know that there is not such thing, because a 10 is perfect?

Please any information to help me get through this would be great. I have not had much sleep since this.

Thanks

Hi skyrim, welcome to Marriage Builders. The biggest problem I see here is that a) he gawks at women and b) he works with young attractive females. So of course this is going to upset you and cause jealousy. Jealousy is a natural reaction to a risk in marriage. You rightly see the risk here. So one of the first things he needs to do is stop gawking.

Once he stops doing that, and you start really using this program, you will find that your PA score will go up because he will be passionately in love with you and he won't be comparing you to other women. Check this out:

So I am still not sure what to do. My husband and I have talked about how it makes me feel when he looks, or notices other women. I am not sure that the is one who gawks, but has done a double take before. He is willing to try and be respectful to me an my feeling. I guess that is all someone can ask for, but how ever in the misty of our conversation about this situation. I asked lots of questions. Questions now that I wished I had never asked, because I don't know how to move beyond the knowledge.

I asked why do you look? His reply was because he was appreciating the beauty of a woman/female, and that he enjoyed it. That is was the same as looking at a ice car and appreciating the looks of the car or how you would enjoy a beautiful sun set. I gives him pleasure, but that it does not take away from me or how he feels about me.

Then of course I was stupid and took it one step further and had him rate or rank women on a scale of 1 - 10, for the women he worked with and me. Yes I even asked about me, which I also wished I had not done. Now this rating is on physical features only. Back when we meet it was a 9, now I am a 8. Now mind you that is still pretty high, but hurts like the devil.

So now when we are out anywhere all I do is think of how or which women he is noticing and rank they are and what is the reason he noticed in the first place. Then if I do notice him look, when we are in a place where no one can here us I ask him so what was it about that one. He is still honest and tells me what may have caught his eye.

I am at a loss and I feel that I will never be able to move on from here and I know that if I do not that what ever kind of marriage we had or could of had will never happen. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

What does he say when you tell him you don't like it?

Hi skyrim, please read my post above. Your questions were addressed in that post.

He says he understands as much as he can, and that he will try not to look.

I read your post and shared the information with him. And I would say that he is trying. He does not look for even just a second more of the times. The issue now is me and how I move beyond this. Beyond the information that I now know.

I will admit I am very insecure and have not self confidence and what little I had if any is gone now.

I am so full of hurt and anger that even when he may not be looking I think he is or start questioning him about every female that we pass even when we are grocery shopping. Even if she glanced noticed it was a female and turn his head away, does not matter at this point now. That is where the struggle lies, with me.

Will he come here and post?

How has he been doing on meeting your ENs?

How much UA time are you getting?

He's in the military? Are you together every night?

Not sure if he would or not. I would have to ask.

In regards to EN's that area has been lacking for a long time and we realize it even more after taking the questionnaire.

With UA I am not sure in the past I would say only when in the bedroom. With in the last few weeks maybe more due to the situation.

Yes, he is military. For the most part we are unless he has been sent on a training.

Of course I am willing to come here and talk..but you would have to ask. I guess this is just an offer if you want it.

(edit) This part of the forum seems to be dead..can this thread be moved somewhere it will get more attention?

A couple of questions, skyrim. How would rate him in meeting your needs for affection and admiration?
Please go read this article, download the questionnaire and both of you fill out a copy. Come back and tell us what your most important emotional needs are how you rate each other. here

How much time do you spend together each week meeting each others needs for sexual fulfillment, affection, conversation and recreational companionship? How often do you go out on dates? Can you write out a schedule describing all of the alone time you spent together this week. For example:

Monday - 3 hours - dinner date
Tuesday - 2 hours shopping

Welcome to MB.

It looks like the MODS moved this to MB101.

Would you please start your own thread so we may help you?

You rigged the question.

My wife is 59. She doesn't look the same as she did when she was 20. If she asked if she looked like a twenty year old the honest answer would be no.

When I look at her I see the face that gazed back at me when we made love. I see the face I saw when my daughter came into the world. I see the face that was gazing down at me when I woke from surgery. I see the hands that held mine when my father died. I see the arms that held me in my sleep. I see .....you get the idea.

At twenty we didn't have any of that. Just features can't compete.

It is the face that warms my heart like no other. Of course you want your husband's emotions involved when he sees you.

Right...


Man, she is beautiful, I...


... bet she would be fun to discuss astrophysics with.

... bet she makes a mean chicken fettucinne.

... bet she is an excellent drag race driver.

... would like to ask her opinion on the situation in Syria.

... bet she has some genious interior design ideas.

... think she must have a high skill for solving calculus equations.



Like a sports car, huh?


Sure, take the previous, and add;

... would like to run her through some curves!



"It's not sexual in nature!"


Right.

We did the questionnaire a few weeks back. The following are my 5 emotional needs.
Intimate conversation -2
Honesty and openness -2
Affection -2
Admiration -2
Recreational companionship here is a 2 not a -2


My sexual fulfillment (3) is fine the only thing in that regards was that I would like more foreplay, which can include so many things, not just the things in the bed room.

Most of our time spent with any conversation mostly has to do with me leading the conversation or asking questions, because he does not talk. He has always been a quite person even before we started dating that is just him. But when we do talk like I said I do most of the talking and before we took the questionnaire, he would always be to busy with his smart phone or the computer.
No we really don�t go out on dates, and even if we do go out to dinner some where it ends up being him on his phone. Now with out his phone to keep his attention maybe that is why I have notice that he is noticing other women more often that he seem to before. What little recreational things that we do are typically in a group setting so therefore it is not just us. Which brings me to another thing that I have notice more and more, when we do go do things with friends or co workers, he will pay more attention to them than me, or talk to them more, laugh and joke. Those are things he never really does with me. Another example is when right before we got here to our new base, a group of his co workers wanted to get together and hang out at this indoor game arena. A place where they had go carts and bowling, laser tag, mini golf and etc., now I don�t remember what we where arguing about before he let to go, but I had stated I was not going to go, one reason is I was hurt and mad the other I did have to go take care of a friends animals that I was house sitting for while she was on vacation. After I got done with the animal care I decided to text him and let him know and see if they where still there and if he wanted me to stop by. He said yes, and so I did. That was a big mistake. While we where there he totally ignored me, and my opinions and suggestions in some of the things the group was doing. Here is what I mean. Everyone was trying to figure out what to do next. I made the suggestion that we should go try the miniature bowling, 3 of the other females suggested the laser tag. So rather than him saying or stating to go with me, he went with them. So once they started laser tag game, I decided to go play bowling. When I was finished I went to see if the laser tag was still going on, and it was not. They had finished and moved on to another game and he noticed I was gone but did not care enough to come find me or anything. So I decided at that point I was so hurt that I should go home. I told him I was going to head home so that I could take care of our animals and left. I texted him and told him that I was not sure that he could have broke my heart any more than he had just done. He of course when he arrived home stated that I was over reacting, which is something he does often. He tells me I am over reacting or I am acting crazy, or that my reaction does not match the event. Anyway when we got here at this base we met with one of his co workers, she is very nice drove us everywhere we needed to go. One day we took a trip with the base to learn about a near by city. While we are touring the city, he is walking with her, talking to her and does not even notice that I have fell behind. The reason I fell behind is that I had and still have a foot/ankle issue I have been dealing with for a while and after a while I start limping and some times really can�t walk very good. My son was with us that day and he typically is a fast walker as well, but he was the one who decided to look back to see where I was and stopped and weighted on me. Then slowed his pace and walked with me. All while my husband did not and never did. So that is how our time together goes.

I am willing to make a schedule of our time together over the next week and share it here.

Now as to his emotional needs, here are his and how he rated me.

Honesty openness 2
Affection 1
Sexual Fulfillment 2
Intimate conversation 2
Recreational companionship -1

I guess in a way it was a rigged question, and you are right we do change as we age, but should your partner still be physically attractive to you, not just because you have been with them for a specific amount of time.

Don't most people want to believe or know that when their spouse looks at them that the there is a physical attraction still there?

I do feel that it is sexual in nature. There has to be a reason to WANT to look.

Like today he went with me to my physical therapy appt., and of course we walk in and an there is a female sitting there with a low cut dress on. Now he states he only notice the low cut dress once while I was sitting there. Even though I felt that he had looked more than once. But I guess the issue is when I left the waiting area for my appt. he look/notice the low cut dress more, basically the kept glancing at her cleavage that was showing.

Now I guess I have always know that men look, and that depending on the man that the thought process is different. I guess in regards to my husband I knew he notice things and people, everyone does including me. What I did not know was that he liked doing it. Until recently with our conversation has he realize doing so while with me is very disrespectful to me so he is willing to try to not do that. However if the looking, noticing really means nothing then why when I am not around would he still have the need or want to look?

I guess I feel the same as you I feel that there is more to it than what he is saying.

Also I have another question people can maybe help answer, are there other forms of cheating on you spouse beside actually being sexual with another person. Is there such a thing as emotional cheating?

Can you email Dr. Harley?

Email your questions to Joyce Harley at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com. When your email question is chosen to be answered on the radio show, you will be notified by email directing you to listen to the rebroadcast. If you would like to consider being a caller, include your telephone number. You will be called by us to explain the procedure to you. Every caller will receive a complementary book by Dr. Harley that addresses their question.

This is the biggest problem in your marriage. You don't spend enough time together in your marriage to even sustain romantic love. He doesn't focus his attention on you when you are together because it is squandered on other people or he is looking at his phone. Instead you are competing with his friends all the time.

I would start there. Start scheduling 20+ hours per week of undivided attention time meeting the top 4 intimate emotional needs of affection, conversation, sexual fulfillment and rec companionship. It should be out on dates, ideally 4 - 4 hour dates, with no friends around. No TV or movies either! You will feel more valued in the marriage if he starts focusing on you and only you for 20 hours a week. undivided attention

Gawking is a habit and he needs to get out of the habit. If he gets out of the habit, he won't do it when you aren't there either. When men don't give up the habit, it is easy to tell because they continually slip up in front of their wives.

Here are some good radio clips about gawking.

Radio Clip on Gawking
Segment #2
Radio Clip on Gawking

Skyrim, I don't think you are insecure. I just think you (quite naturally) aren't getting the Undivided Attention you need in order to feel fulfilled and cared for. You will feel much better when the two of you start making dates in which you are alone and focus on each other.

Thanks for the links to the radio segments. I also took your other suggestion and email Dr. Harley.

I have come to realize and I feel my husband has also that my EN's have not been met for a while now, and that is something we both have agreed on. He is also very willing to start as well. I do believe that these steps will help, but I also believe I do need to work on my self and my opinion of my self as well.

I want to thank everyone who has spoke up and gave me/us suggestions and asked up questions to force us to look at things that we may have never thought of. I am hopeful that if we truly try with this program, and that being both of us working hard at it, that things will improve. I feel like I can already see an effort on both or our part. I know that one of the biggest struggles I am going to have it I think the part of the Joint agreement. Not so much about agreeing to things, but sometimes doing it enthusiastically, or when we are not and we are talking about things or issues, I become very defensive. That is where I will struggle. When it comes to the giver and taker part and not letting the taker, take over, because once I get my feelings hurt I automatically throw up a wall, and grab the artillery. So any suggestions on how to learn to not let this happen, would be great.

Don't do it. Any habit that you do that you want to stop, stop doing it.

Tell your husband to hold you accountable when you do the wall thing.

I want to advise you that you also keep an environment free for your husband to be honest. In other words, when he's honest with you, do not react in a way that makes him hesitate being honest. The good news is your husband really wants to be the best husband he can be.

I would highly suggest you order the books Love Busters and His Needs Her Needs.
Sit down each night and read a chapter together and discuss it together.

You should stop that.

POJA is a great tool that will help you drop your defenses. Once you realize the goal of POJA is to ensure everyone is happy, finding the WIN/WIN, not a WIN/LOSE you'll see there's no point (it is counter-productive) in becoming defensive.

Read this segment over and over and implement it.
Guidelines for successful negotiation

I have another question in regards to looking. How will I know the difference between him looking/glancing to admire vs. looking/glancing just to see who someone is. For example, say we where at his work and someone is walking down the hall. Right now if that person is a female it is going to make me feel very uncomfortable when he looks to see who it is, just because of the whole situation right now, but I can see how anyone would look to see who is coming. So, how do I know the difference or how do I get beyond this, to where that kind of innocent behavior will not bother me?

My opinion is that if he glances at a person that enters the room, then it's just that. It's what everyone does.

I think you should watch him until watching him is boring.

Over time if he is sincerely trying to avoid looking at women and dwelling on them, you will see this, and your very justified feelings of betrayal and worry will fade.

If he is not, you will see him intentionally continuing to gawk at women, and you will need to take steps to protect yourself from him.

OK. Maybe this is just me but if it's obvious he is just looking at her facial features ... he ain't gawking. Just sayin.

Hi, I would like to share a few things I did not see mentioned. For starters I want to comend your husband on his honesty. I know it hurt that he put you at 8 but that shows your husband isnt just saying something to please you. He also showed honesty saying he does look - notice. Both of those things shows me your husband is being honest with you and that is actually awesome because even though you are hurt if the trust had been violated it would hurt much more. Its awesome he is taking the questionairs and even commented on this forum. it even sounds if he is trying to not look because he knows it hurts you.

My wife also really struggles with this type of thing(probably much more than you). She actually accuzes me of looking when I wasnt. I believe she has become so fixated that she sees what is not there. I do know what I looked at - didnt look at and am very honest. My wife is also 10 years older than me and struggles with that as well as her physical appearance. Honestly that stuff has very little impact on how I view her. Perhaps I have a feminine depth understanding beauty is way deeper than skin level. Most of all that being said to qualify this comparing yourself to anyone is a terrible mistake because ask your husband there is no comparison because you are his and everyone else is not. You can probably relate in this way - there are plenty of attractive men, some may have a better build than your hubby, better hair, better face, funnier,etc but you wouldnt do that(well at least not until you are very dissatified and near adultry and i dont percieve this is what is going on with your husband because of his openess and honesty).

Now I prefer to look at your position as an opportunity for you both to grow. I believe your feelings and hurts are real and also believe in a marriage things should be looked at as ours. Therefore each of you working to solve this would be awesome and probably bring you so much closer. My guess is it came up for a reason and since it looks like your dealing with it together it can really become an asset given you work through it and dont just bury it. Just a suggestion- perhaps you can agree to hold hands or something like that when you are out and you "feel' you need that little re-assurance from him

What this guy said is so good its worth another read.

I also have one more thought as this is something I struggle with and hope to be able to get my wife to help with. It really seems like your love bank is low. Especially in the description of the couple outings. My wife is constantly making plans and doing things for others while i am starving for attention. Most people think time together is all it takes but i can feel so alone in those times and get hurt so bad because i am so hurt wanting some attention and its going to someone else. I do see it as neglect in my case because i have repetivaly shared my need even looked over the **edit** together showing my need or love language of quality time. I have just recently found this site and watched and read everything and have really seen the importance of so much of it. My suggestion is if you can communicate your love bank getting empty or in the negative and if the spouce can recognize that as an immediate desperate cry for a little help getting it back up and do something about it emergency status.

Here is the problem with a spouse that looks at other people, slick; they ARE comparing their spouse to those other people. Gawking and flirting means the competition is still open. SHE is not doing the comparing, BUT HE IS. And he admits this. Men need to get out of this habit if they want their wives to be happy. It is very upsetting to most women.

When one gets married, the expectation is that the competition is closed. And it should be closed. If a spouse even "IMAGINES" another spouse is looking, the solution is to stop doing whatever it was that led that spouse to that conclusion. It is much easier to change behavior than it is an emotional reaction, after all.

slick, just so you know, this forum is for Marriage Builders. They don't endorse Love Languages, because it has no plan to create a romantic marriage. ["love tank" ] Marriage Builders addresses and resolves the problem you mention above with the policy of undivided attention. It takes 15 hours of undivided attention to MAINTAIN the love in a marriage, and 20-25 to CREATE. If you use the Marriage Builders program, your problem of feeling alone would be resolved. It is more than just getting "quality" time, it is very important to get the right QUANTITY too.

Check this out! The Policy of Undivided Attention

Dr Harley's suggestion is to sit down every Sunday afternoon and schedule 15-20 hours of undivided attention for the next week. Write out dates, times, plan activities, arrange babysitting, etc. Time that is scheduled is not so easy to put off.

A couple can't stay in love unless they spend UA time together.

Slick, thanks for sharing your story. I am glad that he is being honest even thought it hurts. You are right if he was not then that would be a different mess in itself.

I am afraid that if I don't get a handle on this soon that I will start doing the very thing you said your wife does. That is start accusing him of looking when he is not, and I don't want that.

I do understand how you must feel, when your wife does not give you the attention you deserve, when at different events. I also saw that you said you where new here as well. If you can see if she will sit down with you and take the The Emotional Needs Questionnaire. That was a real eye opener for my husband and I, because before no matter how much I would tell him of the things I felt he did not understand, until he could see what his needs were and how different mine are. Plus maybe this will help you both see things differently, and figure out why she is accusing you of looking when you are not. Something must be missing for her and you already know that something is missing for you. The link below is to the questionnaire.


http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forms/enq.pdf

skyrim and slick,

One thing that needs to be discussed before just meeting ENs and being able to fill that lovebank are LoveBusters. Skyrim this is critical for you. You will have an impossible time trying to feel your bank being filled if your H continues to do things that annoy you. Read LoveBusters.

If he's ogling other women you feel disrespected, you lose respect for him, it creates a horrible contrast effect for him when comparing them to you, etc.

You can spend your entire life trying to meet each other's needs but unless you eliminate, entirely, your LoveBusters you'll never achieve the romantic feelings needed for your M to thrive.

The more I read and go through the MB web page, the more I realize that there are more issues than just the looking. It definitely has to with the lack of EN's being met. And not being met for a long time now.

Slick you stated the quote above, and after all of the other things I have asked recently, I would be afraid to really ask him that question, in fear of his honest answer. Because what if he answer was not that, then I would just be more devastated. I do understand what you are saying though, and if I felt that way then maybe this would not have been an issue at all.

I do feel that we need to get the books that have been suggested. As well as taking the Love Buster questionnaire.

I also emailed Dr. Harley, and was on the show yesterday for anyone who wants to listen to it. I am really glad that I took the advice to get in touch with them. I am also really glad for the advice we have receive on here as well. At this point I feel that things need to be implemented quick, because my Love Bank has been very, very low for a long time now, and with in the last few weeks has been in the red.

Skyrim, I understand your fear in knowing the truth. You�re insecurities will only be heightened by his answer. But in a M complete honesty is important. Just wanted to point that out.

In this situation I don�t think you need to ask him how you compare but rather ask him how you are doing in meeting his needs and eliminating the things that lower his lovebank for you. Maybe there are a few things he�s afraid to confess because he is concerned it will only add to your insecurities. That is something you two will have to work through. Radical Honesty.

In all honesty if a person is madly in love with their spouse there no longer are comparisons. That person is so fulfilled with their partner they are all they think about. You�re the #1 priority. You�re what consumes their thoughts. They put you and the M above their own personal selfish wishes � because they are content and happy. That brings out the Giver.

This is where you and Jeger need to get to. And yes it is obtainable � even if you both think it sounds hokey. It is possible and if you work at it you�ll get there.

Radical Honesty is not a license to be hurtful. All lovebusters need to be eliminated, so wrapping other LBs in RH is unacceptable. If her insecurities are being enhanced by his RH, I'd bet dollars to donuts that his RH is being used to hide a DJ or some other LB.

It's better to learn the truth so you can improve your approach than to be blindsided by the fact that your spouse is not happy with some of the things you do or don't do.

Believe me, the pain of being blind-sided may be far worse than hearing difficult to hear truths in time to correct them.

I havent had a chance to comment but knew i wanted to comment and would very much appreciate if you both would hear me. First off I just want to say I love the fact you both are involved because that means you really have success at hand. Keep working. Keep sharing. keep growing. A single snowball can create an avalanch. Take what you both have done and continue to let it build and grow. I am going to suggest something I actually sence something with the honesty thing that goes something like this. I think there is still a fear in it thats preventing the intimacy. http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3600_state.html go through those and when you get here in the final section in it then both of you seek to be radically honest to achieve intimacy again. This is the key section http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3620_state.html. Remember a marriage is two being one so any problem is both of your problems even if its all one persons fault so work together.

**edit**

I will admit that it is not easy, but yes we are both committed to giving it all we have.

I also realize that we have a lot to learn and that it seems that more questions come up daily. So here is a question I have right now. In regards to the Love Bank deposits and withdrawals, it seems to make perfect sense. However are there actions that make bigger deposits than others, and are there actions that make bigger withdrawals than others? I guess I am more concerned with the withdrawals more so than the deposits. Reason being is because with my bank being in the red for so long it seems that when there are some deposits there always seems to be a huge withdrawal.

For example we will have a good day then it seems that there will be either one huge bad day or two bad days in a row. So on the good day I feel the deposits and love but on the bad days it seems to get wiped out again.

Any suggestions or hints? Like my husband stated we are in the process of buying and waiting on some of the books to arrive. While doing so we are still reading the articles that everyone has suggested and trying to implement things best we can as we learn. So thanks again everyone.

In a marriage with love busters happening, Dr. Harley would strongly recommend that you both learn about the love busters first and work on eliminating every single one of them. Basic Concepts - Love Busters

Figure out which one of them is the biggest problem for each of you, using the love buster questionnaire, and work on those first, continuing down the list.

The largest love bank deposits come from the most intimate emotional needs being met, but they can all be wiped away in a few bad minutes of love busting. That's why it's important to stop the bleeding first.

You are exactly right and I can't remember, but didn't Dr Harley tell you guys to work on stopping the lovebusters FIRST? That is the usual first step for the reasons you gave above. You can download Lovebusters for kindle on amazon.com and can read it on your PC.

Another important thing is to be radically honest about what each of you is doing to make lovebank withdrawals. And your husband should not be talking about WHAT he finds "attractive" about other females. That is absolutely unnecessary and he shouldn't even be focusing on that in the first place. All of his attention should be on YOU.

I still believe that if you two do a better job of giving each other UNDIVIDED ATTENTION on your dates that it will make a huge improvement in your marriage. Have you been working on scheduling UA time? There is a worksheet in the questionnaire section that you can print out and use.

I agree with what Melody lane is saying. It has been my own experience (which backs up what Dr. Harley says) that a bout of lovebusting can drain our banks faster than an almost perfect need-meeting day can fill them

I cannot remember who recently put up the link for that UA worksheet but it is really good. We exceed 20 hours every week, but it is still a very very good organizational thing and having it in writing makes it even better.

Here is another good tool to use to see what problems you should focus on first.

Marital Probelm Analysis

You would work on those that either spouse scored with a 1 first and so on.

I am not sure of anything anymore. It seems like just when we are taking a step forward then we, me or he takes 15 backwards.

No we have not been working on the UA the way we should, and guess we should look a the work sheet.

I feel that the more we are learning about things and honesty, that the less I feel moving forward. I am finding out about things that I should have known 4 years ago, things that he does not necessarily lied about but overtly leaves out. I keep finding out about how he views things differently than I do and even thought he has not be unfaithful, to my knowledge there have been different events and things that happen that I would not have be ok with, but happened anyway and he either does not tell me at all and I find out later somehow, or he leave specific information out and then I find out later.

There are so many love busters I feel and he states that he understand but never makes any effort to implement anything. He says things then never follows through.

I could go on and list them but I am sure you guys don't want that, but how does a girl with a shattered heart and an empty Love bank that is ready to be closed forever continue to hold on to hope?

I would focus first on scheduling your UA time. During that time you should be as pleasant as possible in your conversation. Do not bring up mistakes of the past and don't grill him. The policy of radical honesty does not give you license to grill your husband or to hammer him with mistakes of the past. That has to stop.

Instead, focus on being as pleasant as possible while focusing on each other. And no lovebusters!!

Do you have the material for the policy of undivided attention?

The Policy of Undivided Attention

Undivided Attention worksheet

skyrim, please read through this article very carefully and start following these guidelines when you are together. The book HNHN covers this topic much better, but this will get you started.

Schedule your UA time and plan to follow the guidelines in this article: conversation

Skyrim,

It would be nice if you could just take a deep breath, realize you two are just recently learning a new way to handle your R and give this program some time to work.

Right now you guys are rookies and have to work through these conflicts so that you end up with enthusiastic decisions and care and protection of each other.

It doesn't happen overnight and the fact you are both here willing to make things right is wonderful. It's just hard for newbies to know how to get started without some proper guidance. We can only help so much. Please know there are some pay-for options here on MB that can make a world of difference.

In this latest post you talk an awful lot about what he has done in the past. Can we accept that the past is the past and that the future is going to be something totally different? That in the future he will be more timely with his honesty and will be far more open and honest. Once you have learned this program and learned how best to tackle the conflicts in your R and built a loving M you won�t care about the past anymore.

FYI the 15 steps backward are based on your attempts to right the ship not knowing exactly how to do it. Can you just accept that things are new and you are going to struggle for awhile?

I think the best option for a couple that are both willing to get on board with MB is to hire one of the MB counselors to help you through these difficult times. They�ll get you started and address the specific issues that make getting started so difficult. My W and I hired Dr Jennifer Chalmers and she was great. She spent a lot of time having private conversations with each of us giving us specific things to do, to work on, to clean up our sides of the street. All the while educating us on how to implement each of the necessary steps.

One thing I think will be very helpful for you is to do more than just tell your H what not to do when he�s LB�ing is to give him things you�d love to see him do instead. �I feel xxxx when you do xxxx. I�d love it if you could � instead.�.

MrAlias,
I really wish we could afford to hire one of the MB counselors, but at this time that is not a finical option.

Yes I did mention a lot from the past, but one of the reasons why is that for some reason it keeps coming back up in our lives. When is does there are always new information and details that where never shared the first time.

I feel so completely betrayed by all of this, and it is hard to even breathe. Just yesterday he received and private facebook message from a female that he so called met when he was at training this past summer for 2 weeks. Really, 2 weeks and you know someone. Not only that but apparently he and the other class mates which included this female where going out to dinner after classes. Now when talking to me I was lead to believe that when he was going out to eat it was lunch and it was with the guys. I am just now finding out that this female was always there as well. And now she is private messaging him just to say hey whats up, how's it going. I don't think or feel so, even though he swears he did nothing wrong and has never cheated on me (sexually).

However I feel that he has cheated on me emotionally and maybe multiple times. Why, because he has so many female friends and supposedly they have all searched him out and requested him. And he seems to have be happier spending time with them vs me.
Again, I feel so much pain right now and feel that I can never trust a word he says, not any more.

I am at a loss, I have always been a fighter an been able to find hope in our relationship, but I am not so sure anymore, I just hurt so bad that I have been physically sick to my stomach and not keep food down well, and have been having some chest discomfort on the right hand side.

Right now I really like I want to run a way and never come back. Leave a go to a place where no one knows me, or crawl under a rock and never come out.

skyrim, have you read Dr Harley's views on opposite sex friendships? Please read this.

And then go take a look at the thousands of affairs over on the Surviving an Affair forum. They all started with opposite sex friendships.

skyrim,

I get the impression you are in such pain because you feel you've been betrayed and that you continue to be betrayed. It makes total sense.

From your H�s perspective I get it. I, too, used to have friends all over and didn�t realize the harm in having female friends. �We�re just friends.�. I never saw having as many friends as possible being a bad thing. But having been here awhile I have heard the pitfalls of opposite sex friends over and over.

I suspect you�re feeling insecure, scared, abandoned, etc. But instead of running away from the M how about you work to fix it? All of your troubles are curable if you have a plan. What is your plan?

What we're all working towards here for you is an end to those feelings. That is best done by putting in place behaviors and protections that make the marriage grow. That bring the two of you closer together. You do this by protecting each other. Negotiating, meeting each other�s needs, eliminating LBs, affair proofing your M via extraordinary precautions, etc.

If you want to start putting an end to those horrible feelings I suggest you start here �
No opposite sex friends. Mr Skyrim (and yourself) need to end those immediately. You need to be accountable and transparent. That is the goal for you two. At least step 1.

So sit down and talk about how you�ll go about ending those types of relationships that cause you so much pain.

You both have a lot to learn. We�ll help you as much as we can.

Goodness - that's going to wreck your emotional health! Tell him you need the female friendships to END.

Skyrim,

I would caution against going in full guns blazing that he's having an affair and getting angry every time he answers your q estions. You have to create an environment where it is safe to be honest. If every time he is honest with you, you get angry and upset and withdrawn, the last thing he will want is to be honest.

Right now he's probably feeling defeated and he can't do anything right.

You two need boundary changes. If he went out to lunch with 'the guys' and a female was present, I doubt he was misleading you on purpose. Did you two have a rule that you cannot go out to eat if a member of the opposite sex is present? If you're not comfortable with it, tell him that from now on you'd prefer he not go to places where there is mixed genders.

If you don't want him having female friends on Facebook, tell himand you two sit down and unfriend them. I wouldn't accuse him of cheating on you because a female messaged him on Facebook. Just from my own personal experience, I've met people one time and they've friend requested me. Perhaps the two of you need to create a joint Facebook account.

This program is partially about affair proofing your marriage by implementing boundaries.

It's important to make sure that it's not just her comfort level that is the problem. Even if she were comfortable and enthusiastic with him having female friends, it would still be a bad idea for their marriage!

You are right that she should tell him she's not willing for him to have female friends any more, in any context, and that she's not willing for him to go to lunch any more with women present. For awhile, my wife wasn't willing for me to go to lunch from work at all - so I stopped!


I wish people would stop giving this advice!

My wife and I switched to a joint account on Facebook after the suggestion was made here - and then went on to carry on an emotional affair on Facebook under my nose with someone I knew! All while we were posting here on Marriage Builders!

Joint facebook accounts are really no security at all. If opposite sex friends or who/what you are viewing is a problem for your wife, get off of Facebook entirely. The world won't stop spinning just because you leave Facebook.

Yes, a big problem that you have in your M right now is that your H has his lovebank open to other women.

Not only is this incredibly risky behavior, it makes it harder for you to make LB$ deposits because he is comparing you to these other women and it is incredibly hurtful and uncaring.

It is critical that when you discuss this issue with him that your lovebusters are under control. You won't be able to solve the problem if you are DJ'ing him or having an AO.

It would make sense if he did though. From the beginning of this thread, she has given examples of her H ignoring her feelings regarding his interactions with other women. He has gone ahead and engaged in these OS relationships despite her protestations and concerns.

I don't think it is a coincidence that he left out the fact that this woman was there that is now messaging him.

That brings up a good point - was he transparent with you about the fact that this woman was there and that she was messaging him now or did you find out because you looked through his FB messages?

Is there anything else he has been dishonest about?

Yes it would. We've certainly seen it before.


Yep. All red flags.

I totally agree.

Have you told him yet?

What did he say?

No he was not transparent with me about the fact that this women messaged him. I found it when I decided to look at his facebook the day after she had sent the message. He stated that he had not even logged on to facebook that day and he did not know that he had received a message from her, but someone had to have read it because there where not red notifications at the top for new messages.

Yes, there are other things that I feel he has been dishonest about. He how ever feels that he was not being dishonest and flat out lying about things. He just never gives the full details about things. Or as he says, he said anything because he did not feel that he was doing anything wrong. Or he uses the excuse, at least I feel it is an excuse that I don't remember every little detail about things, especially if they are not important.

No I have not told him that I want him to end all friend ships with females. I guess I felt that it would be unfair to do that. Also when I have mention it in the past about him having female friends, he just tells me that I am over reacting or just being jealous. Which in return hurts and then I react by having AO's.

You, my dear, must learn to control yourself. What are doing to control your AOs?

You also must be RH that him having female friends hurt and you don't like it.

I just want to clarify....is this how you found out this woman was there that day when he was supposed to be with only the guys, by her message?

Agree.

This is an issue that you need to put on the front burner until it is resolved. Dr Harley encourages complaining in marriage.

Do you listen to the radio show? I believe Friday's show had a discussion about AOs, steps to take to control them and how damaging they are. Press "rebroadcast" to listen.

Jealousy is a normal reaction to a threat in marriage.

You can continue to calmly and respectfully let him know that his opposite sex friendships put your marriage in danger and make you feel unsafe because he is allowing these women to meet his ENs (conversation, admiration and RC). Needs that he should ONLY allow YOU to meet.

I see that your H is posting here. Has he read the opposite sex friendship article that ML posted for you?

This was a tactic to make you feel like this is a problem with you and that he isn't doing anything that is damaging to your M. This is a tactic designed to make you feel like the problem is your insecurity (it isn't lost on me that this is the title of your thread) and has nothing to do with what he's doing.

In addition to SusieQ's excellent advice have you listened to this?
Anger Management 101

I am sure that I have been RH about female friends, or which female friends that made me uncomfortable. But I am also sure that the RH probably was during an AO as well.

I am sure that I am not doing enough for the AO's, but realizing that I having them as part of my defense and attack when hurt. I am also reading the Love busters book at this time. But if you have any suggestions about how to help me get my AO's under control then that would be great.

skyrim, my suggestion would be to stop it. As long as you have angry outbursts you will not be able to solve any problems. It is impossible to solve problems when there is anger.


Have you been radically honest with him about ALL opposite sex friendships? There is no OS friendship that is good for your marriage.

No, it was during conversation. He had to attend a training in Texas for two weeks for his job. He was telling me about one of the conversations that the class had while eating one day. About how the two females that where in the class where asking questions of the males in the class and going around the table to get their answers.

Now he was back home by the time he was telling me this story. When he had talked to me while still in Texas he told that the class went to eat out a couple of times. I assumed that it was for lunch. He never stated any different.

There where many other details of that trip that where left out or not told to me in any conversation until a there was a situation and I decided to snoop on his face book. That is when I realized he had more female friends that I even knew. When I was asking him how he knew each one of them she was in the list and he said she was in the class with him in Texas. I was up set but tried not to let it bother me because I know that other people do search others out on facebook. But since she facebooked him out of the blue like they have known each other for some great time, I started asking more questions and found out even more details about the trip that was not shared with me in the first place.

Do you have suspicions that he has cheated on you? Do you wonder about this?

I have listened to some of the radio broadcast but not that one so I will do that.

My H does have his on thread, and not I don't think he has got to read the article. We both where looking at it and have not finished reading it.

This....


.......... along with the fact that he has opposite sex friendships, would make most women very insecure. Your insecurity and jealousy is a natural reaction to being NEGLECTED in your marriage.

I feel like the most important woman in my husband's life. When we go out on our dates [4-5 times a week] I am the most important focus of his attention. He does not gawk at women and he certainly doesn't have any female friends.

We rarely ever travel apart and when we do, we don't go out with coworkers unless it is planned MANDATORY business event.

I think if you change your lives accordingly, your attitude will change and you won't be so unhappy and insecure. I am a very secure person but I would feel very insecure in the marriage you describe. It would drive me crazy.

I don't even know any more. I don't think that he has been sexually unfaithful, but I feel that he has been emotionally unfaithful. I also feel that if it continues then it would go to being sexually unfaithful.

Yes I do wonder about this now especially, because there have been all these things that I am finding out, that where never shared with me.

See, I don't think you are abnormally insecure. I think your insecurity is a reasonable reaction to his poor boundaries. I think your instincts are telling you something is wrong.

Would you classify yourself as an abnormally insecure person in other areas of your life? In past relationships?

Have you listened to this?

Also, do you have the book Love Busters?

I have never been an overly confident person, and in past relationships I was not this insecure, except for my marriage before this one. And that one did end in divorce and after that I found out he had been cheating. So that does not help this marriage out at all. I feel like I am re living some of the same excuse or justifications as I hear many years ago.

I predict you will much more secure if your husband stops all opposite sex friendships and you start 15-20 hours per week of undivided attention. If you start spending all of your leisure time meeting each others intimate emotional needs, you won't feel so neglected.

So we bought the LB book and HNHN book. We have just got started on reading the LB book. We have only gotten to the 2nd chapter where it talks about abuse.

Dr. Harley's description of abuse is not want you think of when someone talks about abuse. Now I have not even finished that chapter yet, but with just what little I have read, I am so ashamed of my self. I am become very nasty when hurt and lash out. I know that some of this stem from my previous failed marriage. I know that it does not make it right or ok to allow that to flow over into this marriage, but at this point I am not sure what else to do.

I really feel like my giver has given up and may never want to give again, and that my taker has taken control and not willing to let go. It also states that we should avoid not do those things to our spouse, we should protect them. I really feel at this point the only way to do that is to not be around him. He is not for that because he feels that I will not return. But all I know is that I don't want to end up hating him or hurting him anymore, but at the same time I don't want to end up being hurt more either.

I know he is a kind, gentle, caring person. I see that everyday in they way he treats others. It has just not been for me or with me in years, and now with all the situations that have arise, I am so full of pain, anger, resentment that I am very stand offish and cautious.

I see that he is making an effort in some ways like joining the forum and buying the books, and trying to talk and not shut down, but he does not seem willing to other things that people have suggested, like the scheduling of UA. We have not done that yet.
I guess I could make the suggestion, but I feel that for the last few years I have always been the one willing to work on or at us. I have been the one who is suppose to change, or to forgive and give another chance for things to be different. Then they never are.

I know that this is wrong to feel this way and that plenty of you will tell me so, but I feel like I have worked and bent over backwards and have always been willing to believe what he says then there is no follow through, so I end up getting hurt again. So now I feel that it is his turn and if he is not willing to work his butt off to prove to me or show me that he will have follow through this time, then what is the point. Why should I open up my heart for this if it is just going to be more of the same.

How come you haven't scheduled your UA time yet?

I guess on my part because he has not made an effort to do so. So, I am hurt by his lack of true commitment and feel like I should not be the only one trying this time. I know that this goes against everything I have read so far, but when your Love Bank is so empty, you just don't want to be the one to do all of the work again.

But someone has to go first. You're still being reactive instead of proactive. You can keep being resentful and keep your marriage the same. Or you can lead by example and attract him into the program.

You need to set aside your feeling and instincts, and let your rational mind control your behavior. You know it is a bad idea to construct tests of your husband's commitment in this manner. Follow the program and your feelings will eventually fall into line with your actions.

Skyrim,

It's a disrespectful judgement to say he has a lack of true commitment. You are assuming something about him. In his mind, he might be thinking that he's trying really hard. And if he thinks he's trying really hard and he feels you're being disrespectful to him, he might be thinking why try at all since he just gets bashed for trying.

Bad marriages have the "if he would just..." or "if she wasn't so..." It's a blame game where each spouse is blaming each other. Essentially it's a tat-for-tat or a "if you, I will" type of relationship.

It's okay for you to tell him when your feelings are hurt. It's okay for you to tell him when he does something or doesn't do something it bothers you. What I think YOU should do is go to him and tell him that you would like for the both of you to sit down and brainstorm some ideas for UA time this upcoming week.

So with reading the LB's book, and discussing the chapters read that it seems to bring up more issues and more questions. Maybe some of my questions will be answered later on in other chapters.

I guess I am just wondering with the POJA. From what I understand there should never be a decision made with out both of us enthusiastically agreeing. How is that possible in all things. What if a decision needs to be made and we are not together or unable to get in contact with each other?

Also we are suppose to think about each other, and what we might be doing or the choices we make and how each other might feel about that situation to help us make better choices, correct?

If that is the case, and supposedly we have done that and it still turns out to be the wrong choice, how do we fix that or know to do differently the next time?

For example: My spouse while away for training, made choices to go to have dinner after class with other class mates, including females. Which whom the single females, requested him as a friends on facebook, he accepted and now one of them has messaged him privately, but I mentioned that before. So while there he supposedly should have been thinking about me and taking my feelings into consideration. Now I don't feel he did that, because if he had done so then I don't think he would have been so social with the group with the females involved. Now he says he did think about me, and even now if he would have to make that choice again then he would still go out to dinner with them (x3), because he felt that he was doing nothing wrong, and that I would not have a issue with it.

This concerns me, because if he thinks that way and thinks that way about my feelings, then how can I ever feel that he will make good choices where my heart is concerned?

I have been hurt so many times in the past before this marriage, and so many with this marriage that I am so guarded that I am having a really hard time. I feel very overly emotional and sensitive to everything now.

I think you need to take a deep breath. If you spend the entire time dwelling on the past, you'll never be able to fix the future. Yes you've been hurt. Most of us have. Now is the time for you to start setting boundaries. Two him that you're not comfortable with the female Facebook friends. If he tries to argue with you, you just repeat that that is how you feel and you would appreciate him respecting your feelings.

Then the decision cannot happen. If you say no, it doesn't happen. If he says no, it doesn't happen. Marriage is like two people rowing a boat. Unless you both agree on even the smallest movements - you'll go off course.

PoJA is actually pretty easy to do. You quite simply never do anything without your spouse's full approval. Each idea needs two enthusiastic thumbs up votes to pass.



Don't do it, is the easy answer. Unless it's something your spouse is fully aware of.

But you raise a good point about how difficult it is to PoJA when apart. It's why Dr Harley encourages an integrated lifestyle where you are together most of the time. If the two of you have separate lives, then there will obviously be tonnes of independent behaviour that the other person did not OK. And it will hurt them.

For workplace stuff when you are not together, be radically honest with each other about what takes tends to take place during the day. Then you must put eliminate stuff the other person is not OK with. If a wildcard comes up, call each other.

It's so easy really. I am not married and do not even live with my boyfriend and we find PoJA a breeze. We discuss our plans so we know what's going on with each other even when apart. Of course we don't want to hurt each others feelings by acting inconsiderately and PoJA makes it so easy to think first, act second. I wish I had known about PoJA in my first marriage - it makes everything simpler.




Just remember that he had not even heard of PoJA then! He was entirely left to his own devices in making this decision. Sole decisions are much more unlikely to be wise ones than joint decisions. I guess we're all guilty of bad habits before we learn good ones.

Now he has access to learning PoJA he can be encouraged to only make decisions which take you into account.



Dr Harley says he still now and then makes PoJA mistakes without checking Joyce's feelings first. He'd be unlikely to make such a rookie mistake as dining with OS friends without checking with Joyce! However even with 50 years PoJA experience he does make small mistakes still.

I think an example on the radio was he threw out some old unused books from the attic without asking her. Turned out she still wanted them. So he undid his mistake as best he could by trying to get them back. Then, they agreed not to throw out things without checking.

In your H's case he could undo the social mistake by making sure these friendships he started without your approval do not continue. And he could make sure he doesnt agree to do this again.

How often are you in contact during the day? How aware are you of each other's movements. If you both communicate more, you'd both be less likely to act independently, I think.

Some may have to be answered with experience, with practice, or with communication from others who have been through this as well. Lots of us have dedicated immense time to learning the ins and outs of Dr. Harley's program and are here happy to help!

But the first thing I want to know is - is your husband putting in the time to learn this material, too? I want to warn you that according to Dr. Harley you have an extremely tough time ahead if you the wife are the one motivated to learn and he is not.


The only exception Dr. Harley says to make for the POJA is exceptions for "health and safety." An example would be an abused spouse getting help even though the abusing spouse is not enthusiastic about it - the health and safety of the abused spouse is at stake! Likewise in the case of getting help when your spouse has an affair, or an addiction. This kind of thing usually comes up in cases of abuse, affairs, or addiction, but I can think of other examples: say if you are seeking medical treatment for a child in the emergency room and your husband is not around.

Over time a couple will build up a "list" of agreements they've made, things that they can count on their spouse to be enthusiastic about. An example Dr. Harley gives is that for breakfast, he is always enthusiastic about Joyce making something for breakfast if she wants, so she doesn't ask him. But if HE wants to cook something for breakfast, she might or might not be enthusiastic, so he should ask.


You communicate! You follow the policy of radical honesty: "It bothers me when you do that." And now you know the other isn't enthusiastic, so you stop doing it, and you negotiate an alternative if necessary.


This should fall into the category of things that have now been discussed and he now knows you will never be enthusiastic about that, so he shouldn't do it.

I'll also add that there are many things Dr. Harley says would be a bad idea for a marriage even if both husband and wife are enthusiastic. Drug use would be one example. Spending nights apart is another.


He should now know that you are not okay with it, and what you need to know is, going forward will he now avoid things you are not enthusiastic about? If so, great! If not, then you have a really big problem for your marriage. Dr. Harley says that anything people carve out as an "exception" where they will do what they want regardless of how their spouse feels about it, will wreck their marriage.


When there have been a lot of violations of the policy of joint agreement in the past, a lot of things done that you were not enthusiastic about, it causes you to have a lot of past resentment built up, and that resentment will be brought to mind with each future violation of the POJA. And if your husband isn't even willing to follow the POJA or wants to make exceptions to it, your resentment will probably become insurmountable.

Skyrims, I wondered how you were getting on with an agreement regarding Facebook?

I've advised your husband to get rid of his OS friends on there because you are not enthusiastic about that. However there seems to some mixed messages as though you don't feel it's fair to ask it of him?

Let me reassure you it is. Even if you WERE enthusiastic about his having OS friends - they are not good for marriages and should be eliminated.

In an ideal world, what would you like to see happen there?

What is the plan?

Please read.
Are "Friends" a Threat to Your Marriage?

The workplace has always been something that he never really talks about. He may on occasion say if it was really busy or stressful, or if they had a meeting or carry in lunch, but never really much detail.

With contact during the day. We are some, but not a lot of that either. I guess one reason why is that over here the cell phone signal is not good at all. So you may not even have a signal for most of the day, but even when we have one or had a good one it was not that much. Maybe to see if something was needed on either one of our way home from work. Now he might text me to see if I am busy and want to have lunch. I normally text him much more through out the day, but not so much over here.

He is trying to learn the material, and seems very willing to give everything shot. Guess I am just overly worried at this point, with all the recent events being so fresh.






Guess this is what scares me the most. I feel that he may know to some degree, and I feel that he is not a malicious person and would not do it if he truly felt it would hurt me, but it just seems like he really never truly thinks about how I would actually feel. Like he said about the dinners, he did not think I would have had an issue with it, because he feel that I think the way he does, or something, I am not even sure how he comes to his decisions some times. But you are right now he truly knows and hopefully this will help him if he will actually think about my feelings.



I feel that this is where I am at right now, and that I am struggling to get past those feelings enough to allow him to make love bank deposits. I know he has said that he is sorry, but I also know that he has apologize in the past for things that he felt that he should, but not because he feels that he has done anything wrong. Also some times it takes him a long time to even say sorry for hurting my feelings. I feel that sometimes the only reason he has apologized is because I have badgered him into doing so. So they don't feel genuine.

Neither one of you is telepathic.

He is not going to feel the same way you do about things. He needs constant, clear communication from you in order to know what you want.

You seem to want some sort of intuitive empathy from him. Well that's achievable but only with clear guidance from you!

Right now, you two don't spend lots of time together and don't communicate about a large portion of your day. You're both working blind.

And what clear instructions are you going to give him regarding facebook?

I really don't have a plan at this time. I have been struggling with the Facebook issue that is for sure. I guess having been involved in a relationship(previous marriage)where spouse then was very controlling and jealous, and I was not even allowed to go shopping, or anywhere with out him. As well as if I happen to look in a direction that he felt there was a male or something then there would be heck to pay. Also I had to give up all of my friends regardless of whether they were male or female, while he was able to have whomever he wanted as a friend. So I guess I just don't want to feel like I am doing that to my Husband now.

Yes I do think that some of the OS friends should go, maybe all, at least for now. I also have an issue with the way he wants to do it. He would like me to set down with him and go through his friends list and let him know which ones that I am not ok with. I guess I feel like he accepted these friends with out me or even telling me, and for some reason one of the most recent single ones feels comfortable enough as at to contact him privately. Maybe it is entirely innocent but I don't feel that it is. So when we had a discussion about this I asked him what kind of connection they made that she would feel it is ok to do this. He feels on his part none. I asked him how can you even get to know someone well enough to call them a friend in less than 2 weeks, and why did he feel like he should have accepted her request in the first place. He stated that during class or one of the breaks that people where asking who had facebook or not, so they new he did so he felt it would be rude or a jerk not to accept them as a friend when the requested. If that is the case then is he not going to be rude or a jerk to unfriend them?

In a perfect world, we would be and have been in the romantic love threshold, and we would be able to have OS friends to a point.

I guess my plan right now is that I need to continue to read the books and staying connected to MB's. As well as seeking some out side help for me personally, to help me with my dislike of my self and my self image.

Thank you I did read the article.

But this is not a sensible comparison. It isn�t controlling if your husband is WILLING to listen to you and your concerns! If he wants your help in making you comfortable, then for goodness sake offer it!

You must see that you are setting him up to fail if you don�t give him honest feedback BEFORE he makes a decision, but then you get naturally upset about it afterwards.

Right now you are saying: "I won't be honest with you about my feelings of jealousy in case you judge me badly for it."

Quite simply you are making a disrespectful judgement about his willingness to care for you and not trusting him enough to be honest with your feelings.

I am sure he realises jealousy is normal and natural - and to be honest it would be quite insulting if you were to tell your husband it was impossible for him to make you jealous! That would imply you didn't care much.

Where is the problem in sitting down with him in front of facebook and HELPING him understand exactly what it is you require in order to feel happy and enthusiastic about his actions? If you don�t he will remain uninformed and keep upsetting you, because he is not a mind reader.

Working together to row the boat = not controlling.



The way people make themselves secure, is the same way we make our houses secure. If I had a broken window, my house would not be secure. I would not sleep well at night. If I fixed it up, my house would be secure and I would feel more secure too.

Currently your husband is making a few very silly boundary mistakes. He can be approached by anyone, at any time, on the internet and he mixes and socialises with single women of the OS.

This is like a broken window allowing bored strangers to intrude in your marriage stealing time and attention that belong to you. If you close it up, there will be no intruder and your marriage will be more secure. You will then FEEL secure. Feelings follow actions!

I have no problem believing this is what happened, Skyrim. This is what single people do. They have a lot of time on their hands and they need a strong network of friends to a) defeat boredom and b) to find someone. The best way to find someone is to make lots of friends. Their future spouse could be one of the new friends, or the new friends might introduce them to their future spouse.

Married people can't behave this way, picking up friends as indiscrimiately as picking daisies. For one thing, we owe our spouse at least 15 hours of UA time if we want them to be in love with us - there's not much time left over for messing around on FB. For another it's needlessly dangerous to mix with a lot of single, bored people who want their needs for affection or IC met online or who want to upgrade from their current boy/girlfriend. Thirdly, we shouldnt have friends our spouse dissapproves of, even if they are the same sex, so leaving the gate open to all and sundry is simply foolishness.



OK so he made a mistake in a situation he had not forseen. Therefore the two of you should plan what he should say next time this situation happens. I don't think either of you should be this accessible to complete strangers. It's a bad idea generally to have such little IT security and be open to the world anyway.

Would you both be willing to make your Facebook pages private, so that no one can search for either of you? If you want to add someone you have both PoJA'd, you can send them the link to your FB page so you are in full control of who who contacts you.

I once attended a seminar where lots of single people were swapping names with the aim of getting FB friends. I was a separated BW at the time and keeping high boundaries around the OS until I was divorced. When one man asked me how I spelled my rare surname, I foolishly told him because I had not prepared for such a situation and did not �want to seem rude and like a jerk� � just like your hubby. When I got home I changed my privacy settings so no one could contact me. I dealt better with it after that because I was prepared. There�s any number of things your husband could say.

�Oh I don�t have much time for it�
�My wife is really the one who checks things on Facebook for us�
�No, not really�
�I don�t do the whole online socialising thing�

Why dont you both sit down and PoJA a response to a woman's (or anyone's) FB approaches that would make you happy?


May I ask for what reason you both mainly use FB? Family etc?

Oh I just noticed I misunderstood your question - and Nobody notices being unfriended!

Besides, if he makes his page private, it will simply appear as if he's gotten bored of FB altogether and closed his account.

That's horrible if it's one-sided - did you also get similar input into his activities? It's great if BOTH husband and wife are thoughtful enough to refrain from doing things that offend the other and patiently search for alternatives together when something needs to be done but a win-win solution hasn't been found yet.


Dr. Harley strictly opposes PUNISHMENT in marriage. Even if a spouse breaks the "rules," punishment is not the answer. (Protecting yourself by separation - the ultimate "do nothing" of the POJA - might be.)


See that was the problem - he required you to be thoughtful toward him, but he was NOT thoughtful toward you. And he punished you when you messed up! He expected you to be telepathic and read his mind and punished you if you did something he wasn't enthusiastic about. Meanwhile, he went ahead and did whatever he wanted.

A relationship where both husband and wife are thoughtful toward each other is FANTASTIC! A relationship where one spouse is required to be thoughtful, punished if not, and the other spouse is completely thoughtless is SLAVERY.


There is nothing wrong with agreeing to be thoughtful toward each other. It's the way to build a successful marriage. It's a fair trade - it requires something from BOTH of you.

And he doesn't have to do that if he doesn't want to. If he doesn't want to be thoughtful toward you, he doesn't have to stay married to you.

A marriage where husband or wife or both are thoughtless on a regular basis, where on or both of them do whatever they want regardless of how the other spouse feels about it, is not worth keeping. It is hell on earth. Dr. Harley says whatever "exceptions" are carved out to allow a spouse to override the other's feelings in one area will eventually destroy a marriage.


That would be a bad idea, regardless. Nothing wrong with OS acquaintances, people you both know, with whom you do not discuss personal issues - but opposite sex private relationships where some woman is your husband's friend but not yours is an invitation for trouble.

EVEN IF you are past the romantic love threshold, an affair can still start and the contrast effect can still destroy a marriage.

Simple formula:
Unmet emotional needs (below the romantic love threshold) + no extraordinary precautions = AFFAIR
Unmet emotional needs + extraordinary precautions = NO AFFAIR
Met emotional needs (above the romantic love threshold) + extraordinary precautions = NO AFFAIR
Met emotional needs + no extraordinary precautions = AFFAIR


Are you guys listening to the daily radio show? This is the best resource for repairing your marriage!

Skyrim,

I want to caution you against bringing prior relationship baggage into other relationships. This husband is not your previous husband. Don't punish him for what someone else has done.

I'm sorry but I object to this. Skyrim's objection to OS friends is perfectly reasonable. There is nothing wrong with learning something from one relationship and using that knowledge in the next.

When I first came here I agreed with everything except Dr Harley's stance on OS friendships. Which I though was archaic. However I sadly went on to learn he was right: that two intelligent, thoughtful and caring people (my friend and my husband) were vulnerable to an affair if they were allowed to have a close friendship separate from me. I wish I had known earlier.

I will never accept a need for any future husband to have close, intimate OS friendships that do not include me. This is not only because Dr Harley advises it, but because I have PERSONAL experience of exactly why it is such a bad idea!


That isnt baggage - it's called life experience.

skyrim, spouses in a good marriage don't have OS friendships, though. My H and I don't have OS friendships and we are in love. We don't have them because we know they are not good for our marriage. All of our friends are couples.

Instead of going through his facebook contacts, why not just delete the page altogether and start up a COUPLES facebook page for you both? That way, you can avoid all the drama of unfriending people and inviting unneeded attention.


I hope you will agree that the instances of controlling behavior cited above should not be lumped in with Dr Harley's policy about no OS friendships? It is not "controlling" to eliminate OS friendships in marriage. It is what someone does when they implement extraordinary care in their marriage.

Where did I say anything about OS friends? I was referring to her taking about her testing him and responding to him in certain ways because of her ex.

We mainly started Facebook as a network with our friends, and to reconnect with high school friends and family that we had not seen in years. But since we are stationed overseas it has become a means to stay in touch with our immediate families, and friends back home. Also when we are apart we use it to keep in touch with each other through the chat program.

I know an I am trying not to, it is just hard some times when I have heard or live through some of the same excuses as before. It just opens up old wounds again.

But you are right he does not deserve to be treated based on the past relationship.

We have been listening some, probably not as much as we should. Could that be one of the things that we do during UA time during the week? Of course it would be a little different since it would not just be UA time for us, but it would be sort of that way since it would be just me and him listening.

My opinion on that is no. The reason is because you can't meet each others needs or give each other UA when you are listening to a radio show. I know I would want my DH to be quiet while we listened. One show I would really, really like for you to listen to is this one: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/u...in=159068&Number=2757785#Post2757785

Thanks for stating that, because I have felt that the issue with OS friends would be just like my ex.(controlling), and I would never want to be that way with anyone. I also vowed that I would never let that happen to me again. So I guess I did not want to feel that I would be stooping as low as my ex. in the way I was treating my H now.

I think listening to today's show could be of use to you.

There is a segment about accountability. Dr Harley tells the caller who doesn't feel comfortable "controlling" her H's computer use (porn). Dr Harley tells her that if either will not agree to being accountable for this issue, he doesn't think their M will make it.

I think your situation is parallel to this. You feel uncomfortable making your H accountable to you for this behavior but if it marriage-wrecking behavior doesn't stop, it will have a very negative consequence on your M.

It has already led to dishonesty and IB on the part of your H, AOs by you, fighting, etc. Not to mention it is extremely risky behavior.... Dr Harley says people who don't take extraordinary precautions to have an affair...will have one.

Ok, still struggling here. I realize that it took us a long time for our relationship to get in the shape it is in, and that fixing it will take some time as well. Plus learning to do the things that we need to do, when it has been a long time since we have done any of these, or maybe never, takes practice. However how do you learn to implement these things, if you have never done them or don't know how.

For example, with the AO's and DJ's. People have stated to just stop doing them or having them. Well that is great advice, but how? If you are having a conversation and it has turned bad and all you have ever known was to disguise the pain with an offensive reaction such as AO or DJ, then it is not so easy just to stop. What am I suppose to do, just walk away, until I calm down, then try it again? That is part of the problem, there is never any returning to the topic of conversation.

After reading an article on MB about conversation, it made me realize that we are both guilty of the enemies of bad conversation,and I am very guilty of a couple of them. One of the main issues we have always had is conversation. Even when we first met and where just friends, my spouse did not talk much. He has never had a need for conversation. He has always been an introvert, and has always been one who if he feels that he does not have anything good to say, then he just does not talk. So I have always struggled with this area, because I am a extrovert and thrive on conversation and talking.

Also with the article it states that one of the enemies is dwelling on the past and past mistakes. Ok I do realize that is not good or healthy, but if there has never been a complete conversation with a resolution to any of the issues, then how am I suppose to let them go? It seems like nothing as ever been solved agreed upon, worked out. It has always been pushed under the rug.

I know that a lot of you have been doing these things for a long time and it seems so easy, but for a newbie, it does not. So if there are some good exercise, or suggestions, or hints on how to help me to stop doing things or to let go then please share. Please don't take offense or take it the wrong way, but telling me to just stop doing it, is easier said then done. So if you can share some of the things that some of you have done to help you to stop doing certain things that would be great.

Which is a good thing. Please do not refer to her valuable learning experiences as 'baggage'.

Before she had these valuable learning experiences she was entirely passive, ignored her alarm bells and anxieties and that did not work. She also learned from her ex husband that the other extreme - control - does not do much for the lovebank.

So her learning experiences have brought her here where she can learn proactive ways to find the right balance.

Its normal and natural for Skyrim to feel anxious and feel under threat in the place her marriage is in right now. It's right that she tells her husband his actions make her feel this way.

In the past she may have ignored this until the critical levels were reached. However her past relationships have intelligently increased her anxiety level so that inaction is not an option.

People who have been in bad relationships are more proactive at complaining and better at hearing alarm bells. And there ARE alarm bells here. Sky has accurately identified dangers and risks to her marriage.

That is why Skyrim came to MB to get help with some very real issues in her marriage.

I think she's doing great and it's all thanks to her common sense and life experience.

Then why don't you two stick to that plan? Make the page private so strangers can't reach you and only true f&f you've personally added can find you.



You aren't supposed to disguise your pain! If your spouse jabbed you accidentally with a fork - you wouldn't hide it would you? You'd ask him to stop waving forks around in future.

You are supposed to helpfully inform your spouse that you are in pain, and tell him how to avoid giving you pain.

Such as: "I'm not crazy about when you do x, it hurts my feelings. How would you feel about doing y instead?'. Be prepared to accept a 'no', or an 'I don't know'. Part of safe and cheerful negotiation is trusting our spouse to think things over in their own time.

Dr Harley says the best way to learn about safe and cheerful negotiation is to practice with something unimportant, to avoid heightened tensions.

One of his key recommendations is to go grocery shopping together. Negotiate everything that goes in the basket. Only PoJA'd items are allowed in. For example, Joyce doesn't allow sardines, which Dr Harley loves in her grocery basket. She hates the smell.

Obviously it doesn't matter if you fail at this or get stuck at PoJA, because it's just groceries and it's just practice. If you two do run into problems you can come back here for tweaking and tips for your negotiation skills.

In fact one very esteemed MB vet, (who shall remain nameless) who has a terrific marriage today, did not do so brilliantly in this test on the first practice run.

It's all practice.

To just stop is what a lot of us did. You recognize that you're getting angry and you say, "I'm sorry but I need to take a break from this conversation." Go take a walk if needed and you return to the conversation later. It's not easy at the beginning. You're going to have a slip up. But it will become easier and become normal.

All of us had bad marriages before we came here. My wife did a ton of stuff that was hurtful. However, as we worked this program and she/I quit doing the habits that were hurtful, the past became just the past. When the present is excellent and you're looking forward to the future, you don't want to go back to the past. Y'all will get there.

sky,

There are several things you can try to help stop the old behaviors. For instance, if you ever experience pain during a convo with your H you can simply say "Ouch. That hurt. I need a minute.". Then walk away. It, like anything, takes practice. Just try to be conscientious of your conversations and learn when to walk away.

I'm sure you are both aware that your communications need some work. So come to a mutual agreement that you're going to try to change how you communicate. It would also help if you both were able to be aware of when conversations turn bad. When things seem rather heated agree to separate for awhile. Come back later to get some agreement on when you can try to have the convo again.


As far as things of the past ... stop talking about them as they bring negativity to the R. You are aware of the mistakes of the past so instead of telling him what he did that hurt you tell him what you�d like him to do that is more to your liking. Make your conversations ones that are positive in nature.

This was a crucial piece of advice we received from Dr. Chalmers. Our prior conversations were very tit-for-tat and loaded with bringing up mistakes of the past. Removing the negativity helped us have more productive conversations. It stopped us from going round and round the mulberry bush.

If you want something to be different than give guidance on exactly how you�d like it to go down.

�I�d love it if �..�.

Skyrim,

That was a complaint I had about the forum here at first. I can see the value now though. My wife had built a life of not just looking at other men, but fantasizing sexually about lots of them, EXPLICIT fantasies. She was professionally dishonest and two of these fantasies materialized into PAs. The resentment was (is) HUGE for me. The first few weeks was nothing but AOs and DJs for me. I wanted a magic potion to get over it and I didn't feel anyone on the forum could give me that potion.

But it turns out that feelings really do follow actions. Study the friends and enemies of good conversation. If it's not pleasant, or looks like it could get unpleasant, come back to it later. Just last night me an FWW were having some IC and I felt a twinge of resentment (not even a full blown trigger) and I told her I had to step inside, I was feeling a bit down. She knows what that means so she won't pry anymore. That's just my way of saying if we keep going, I'm going to fall into my old pattern of being a jerk. The trick is you have to sense it's going bad before it goes bad. Often times that means not getting the issue resolved. IMO it's better to leave something unresolved than have an AO. Once all your conversations become pleasant you won't WANT to stop them with an DJ or AO and you should be able to gradually introduce more sensitive topics and resolve the issues bothering you. Worked for me.

In my M, I'm the extrovert. It does bother me when an hour into a conversation I realize I've talked for 50 minutes to her 10. I don't know why she has IC as her number one EN if she doesn't like to talk. She just likes to listen. I pride myself in my storytelling, but I do feel like if I didn't talk, we would stare at each other or talk about the kids for an hour. That conversation wouldn't be very intimate.

I know, easier said than done, but...Don't get angry and you won't be angry. Here's my trick: When we are having IC and I even feel the remotest possibility that it could get bad, we stop IC. I don't get in the car or go for a run to blow off steam because there isn't any steam yet. We just switch to another EN, like RC or SF. I say something like, "I really don't have anything else I wanted to talk about right now, but I could definately go for massage. What do you say we pour a glass of wine and break out the oil?". Then she might joke and say, "Hey Buster, you just want a happy ending". My mood goes from 0 to 60 in seconds.

If you wait till it turns bad, you aren't going to want to be in the same room as him let alone meet ENs. Then the next day, I'll send an email to my W expressing why I thought it was time to pause the IC and any outstanding issues I think we have to reolve. For me and my W, email O&H is much easier than face to face on sensitive topics. That way I can scrub it for DJ and SD before I hit send. Dr. H has mentioned email communiction between spouses on his radio program multiple times for this very reason. At first it seems silly, but the benefit is enormous. I'll take my chance with silly any day of the week over another AO.

MMM

The way you implement them is to implement them. You may not be perfect at first, but you use your intelligence to overcome your emotions and after a while it will come naturally.


Don't have unpleasant conversations. And when you feel offended then CHOOSE to not lash out with an AO or DJ.


You should find things that he likes talking about and make your conversations very pleasant. My H is an introvert and I am an extrovert. But we have learned to have well balanced, interesting conversations by sticking to topics we know we both enjoy.


Don't focus on any past mistakes. You don't have to discuss past mistakes in order to resolve current problems. If it is in the past, leave it in the past. If it is a current problem, then bring it up respectfully.

You might want to put any real difficult problems on the back burner until you get your lovebusters under control and you have better negotiation skills.


We really don't think it is easy to change, but we know that living like you ARE is much harder. You just have to make a decision to change your behavior. Allow your intellect to override your emotions. And of course, everything is easier said than done. That doesn't mean you can't do it. If you will only do things that are easy, then you will never grow or improve in life.

MMM, I wanted to emphasize that it is real important to choose topics of discussion that are pleasant and enjoyable for you both. What kinds of things are you talking about that could "turn bad?" If a date goes bad because of the bad conversation, then that sort of negates the whole point of the date.

The goal is to eliminate all lovebusters but to ALSO eliminate any conversation that either would find unpleasant. For example, I am a political activist but my H hates that topic. So I never bring up politics with him. He can bring it up to me and that is ok, but I don't bring it up. He knows to never ever criticize my son so when the subject of my son comes up he might make a positive comment. See what I mean? We avoid anything that could turn unpleasant and focus on being as pleasant as possible.

I agree 100%. In my case, it's not the topic of conversation that's unpleasent, there really aren't any topics we can't discuss pleasantly. Often times, when we are really close in IC, the resentment slaps me in the face because she had that same level of IC with OM1 and OM2. So as I sense my mood go south, I shift gears to RC or SF. Like I said works for me. I know sky isn't dealing with a WS and that type or resentment so my trick may not apply to her.

For Sky, it seems like the topic of converstion is the problem, so I think she should be able to identify the bad situation (specific topic) before it gets brought up and either stick to a lighter topic at first(like you suggest), or if nothing is coming to mind...switch gears to something else. There's more to a good date than IC, though it is important to get that one right or nothing else works. For me, getting it "right" simply means keeping it pleasant.

Can you remember what the topic was when you were triggered?

No topic in particular, believe it or not. Sometimes we're just on cruise control talking about everything under the sun and I get overwhelmed by how much fun we're having. Then it hits me that I'm not the only one she's felt this way about. At first I would get angry, but now I see it coming and move away from IC before I get there.

Notice I said "I would get angry", not "it would make me angry". That's MB in action. I control my anger and decide not to go there now. Many folks took a bat to me on my thread about a month ago...I'm a quick learner.

Sky, it really is your CHOICE, but you have to practice. Keep it pleasant.

So when you say don't bring up the past, what constitutes the past?


To me I guess the past events that I have been dealing with are things that have happen since this past June/July, guess I feel that those things are still to recent, but I could be wrong.

The past is anything that happened that before this very second.

That applies to mistakes of the past. If you want to talk about your family reunion in 1929, that is fine!

I would just start from today. Yes he had said and done things recently that hurt you and visa versa but do you want to start working on the present and future or do you want to take up time making a list of all the things that he has done to hurt your feelings which will leave him feeling overwhelmed and prob defensive. To me, the past is anything that happened yesterday.

If there are specific things that you would like to see changed/happen, then write down a list and the two of you can go over some boundaries. Keep in mind though that if every time you two are together or have time to talk and all you want to go over is how he has wronged you, he is going to start dreading time together with you because he's going to associate this time with his faults being pointed out.

My wife and I didn't like each other much when we started this program. She was angry, demeaning, aggressive, etc. I was passive aggressive, drunk all the time, and inappropriately flirted. About the only time we talked was during screaming matches in which objects were often broken. There were a couple times I slept in the car so we could be away from each other.

We are now very much in love. We didn't go back and rehash the bad and hateful things we had done and said to each other. We simply started meeting each others emotional needs and stopped love busting. Yes it was hard at first. But it got easier.

It's also a huge lovebuster when you bring up mistakes of the past. You don't resolve issues that way, you just make each other angry. A better strategy is to STOP doing things now that bother each other.

It really is not that easy just to stop certain behaviors or habits in the way you react to things, especially if you have been doing them for a very long time.

Also it is hard to just stop those behaviors and habits, when your spouse continues to do the same things as before that triggered them and brought them out.


I am sure that every couple is different in regards to MB and the program, but is there a time reference as to when things start making a turn for the better, or a suggested time frame for results?

What are you referring to?

So let me see if I understand what you are saying.

You claim it's hard to stop doing the same things you've done before.

You blame your spouse for doing the same things you did before.

Would you accept it if it were the other way around?

He can't stop doing what he did because you trigger him to keep doing what it was he was doing, and it's hard for him to stop due to your triggers?

Because that's how it comes across. It's hard to stop because he hasn't stopped.

You wouldn't accept that sort of excuse from him, so why present it?

You know that no one can answer that for you. I wouldn't set up a time limit to fall in love. If you told the vets you put in 20+ hours of UA time for six months, they might tell you to plan B, but I don't think you can say that yet. Keep working. I've seen his thread, it seems like he wants to have a happy marriage. You want one too. The tools are here. The motivation is already in the M. It seems like the only thing left is quality UA time without LBs.

If you and DS haven't mastered Lovebusters, the answer to your question might be...never.

No one said it was easy. But it is simple. The thing about habits is if they are giving you noon desirable results, then stop. If your spouseis doing something to upset you, you request that they stop. If they try and debate with you, you repeat yourself. If a conversation gets you to the point you're going to say something mean, you walk away from the conversation and return to it later.

My wife and I used to scream obscenities at each other. We'd break things. We'd say horrible things to each other. We started this program and really worked at it. We undid years of behaviors in a matter of weeks. Yes we'd have the occasional slip up but typically we were quick to apologize and correct ourselves. The two things we made sure of is we stopped bringing up the past and we stopped blaming each other.

We stopped assuming the other person knew something out should have known something. Our spouses aren't mind readers. We stopped saying "you know if they would just...". We didn't pout and or sulk.

Our being a good spouse is not dependent on the other spouse.

It's simple. Stop love busting. Meet emotional needs in the way that counts. Spend alone time together.

If my dad was able to quit drinking one day after 19 years of being drunk everyday. If I was able to quit heavy drugs cold turkey after years, then I assure you that anyone can quit old habits quickly. You just have to want to bad enough.

Yes, we understand this. This is why it is so important to stop it now. The longer you stop the behavior the more natural it becomes. You start new habits with new behavior. You just have to make a decision to do so.


He needs to stop it too.


It depends on how soon you make a decision to stop it. If you won't stop it, then things will never be better. If you follow the program you will start seeing and feeling a difference in about 8 weeks.

I think KT has given you some excellent advice here. Your husband doesn't 'cause' you to do anything. You decide how you react. The buck stops with you. Your husband has to do the same thing, but your responsibility is you.

I also think he has hit the nail on the head with the mindreading thing. You can be a bit timid in saying what you want Sky, but your husband is not a mind reader!

Take the FB thing. He came to you for guidance on deleting friends and you uhhmmed and ahhhed and said you didn't think it was fair for him to delete them. It would have been much clearer to say: "I don�t like these particular friendships. Delete them please." But your husband was left guideless.

I've read your husband's thread and I think he really wants to have a better marriage with you. He will listen if you ask!

He doesn't have your excellent instincts for spotting trouble and dangers such as not seeing the danger with the OS friends thing. But he has you for that. If you speak up when you spot a problem, he will listen and help eliminate the problem.

Not being open and honest, and refusing to talk. When he feels stressed he just shuts down. Goes into isolation mode. And this will even take place before he ever gives a conversations a chance to get started. If there is something that he should tell me or share with me, and he feels that it is a touchy subject, he will choose to not say anything at all. Then I find out later and that only makes things worse.

That's an excellent point to raise with your H, Sky.

Can you give us an example of a touchy subject you discovered later? An example that can be used to explain what he should do in future?

Congrats to your father and you both, those where some huge hurdles to conquer.


Maybe that is it; maybe I don�t want it bad enough. Maybe that is why is feels so difficult. I feel like I have been in the conflict/with drawl stage for a while now. I just read last night in one of Dr. Harley�s Q&A articles that sums up how I have been feeling. The link is below to the article but here is that one paragraph.


"When that happens, the person gives up. He or she comes to the conclusion that the spouse will not change and that they must get used to the idea of living without care or consideration. Some of these people remain married for the sake of their values or children, but they remain emotionally distant from their spouses to minimize their pain. Others leave their spouses for someone else who has offered to meet their needs. Still others simply leave, because they find it less painful to be alone and out of the marriage than alone in the marriage."

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5009_qa.html

There is one of the problems, he does not listen to me. Or at least I feel like he doesn't any way. Maybe I have not been asking in the right ways, because I have been asking him and telling him what I need from him with no results.

The LB area is one that neither on of us have mastered yet.

Sky, try this.

Give exact details of what you want from him. At the end of each week he should report his progress. Then ask you for your opinion on how he�s doing.

�Affection is one of my top needs. I would love it if each day you could give me a hug in the morning, when you arrive home from work and just before bed.�.
After the week is up �
�Mrs Sky. Affection is one of your top needs. This week I have focused on providing you hugs throughout the day, each and every day. I believe I�ve done exactly what you�ve asked of me. How would you say I�ve done? Should I be doing this more? Is there anything else related to affection I could be doing?�.
And then you respond.
You do the same for his ENs as well.

The same can be said for LoveBusters too. The key being the check-in. You hold each other accountable. You schedule check-ins so things don�t go ignored. These are essential to making progress. The M and its needs become the priority over everything else.

Sky I would start there. I understand you are keen to break the skin on the problems and get to the 'touchy' issues - but I would leave that alone for now.

Instead of trying to dig into the touchy issues, you and your H should just try listening and talking about simple things first.

Do the lovebuster exercise, do the PoJA grocery excerise.

Practice.

When you both feel safe and happy about your communication skills - get into the big discussions then.

Otherwise it's like trying to run without putting your shoes on.

Unless your H is dying to share his 'touchy' issues, I'd leave it alone until you guys have done some practice.

In the meantime ask him to do something simple and affectionate to reassure you.

For example next time he is stressed and clearly has something on his mind, perhaps he could kiss you on the forehead and give you a hug before you go do something else. Or perhaps you could just go out and do something distracting and fun together.

Ask him if he has any ideas of what he can do to avoid acting stressed around you.

indiegirl is correct, avoid touchy subjects until you have built up your lovebanks. For now, keep it simple:

1. avoid all lovebusters
2. schedule 20+ hours of UA time per week
3. keep it light and pleasant

Do you have the UA worksheet? Are you scheduling your time? UA worksheet

This makes sense.

Think about how it was when you first met, first started dating. I doubt there were many touchy subject conversations.

I suspect your time was spent enjoying one another.

More of that, less of the touchy subjects and judging one another.

From here, it's just confusing. First you say he shuts down, then you say he doesn't listen. That comes across as he can't get it right. He's supposed to be talking, except when he's not supposed to be talking and instead supposed to be listening.

Simplify. Have fun. Enjoy your time one with another.

Let me clear it up.

I have been told to tell him what I need from him. So I have but still nothing. That is what I mean by not listening.

Talking is when there are things and situations that have happened during the day that he should be sharing with me. Not me finding out through another source.

Are you saying that you are explicitly telling him what you would like and need and he is not doing it?

Please provide examples.

Something you've asked for that he just doesn't do.

Caution, things like, he's supposed to be talking is close to, if not a DJ.

Many things in the form of he/she should.... are just that.

I.E. he should talk more...
She should be less sensitive...

These are forms of DJs. They come across as if he/she would only do things my way, things would be better.

You can make respectful requests, not indicate that things SHOULD be done a certain way.

I have on some thing, I was very nice in doing so and making sure that I worded the phrases correctly. So I am doing something wrong or what he needs more time to think about it and process it ?

BUT, she should be telling him how it should done. If the goal is for them both to eliminate lovebusters and meet each others needs in a way that makes each other happy, she has to tell him HOW she wants that need met. Neither can leave each other guessing.

skyrim, what is he not doing that you would like? What is he doing that bothers you?

And have you scheduled your UA time for this week? Have you printed this out and made copies? http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi4508_tuaw.html

Just recently when it was suggested to me to tell him or write him a email or letter of things that I needed from him, I did that very thing. I was careful to make sure I phrase things correctly.

Example: Right now I need open and honest communication. So I said I would like if very much if you would inform me of things when they happen.

I also need affirmation, he never really gives me a compliment. He stated that he thinks them all the time. So I said I would really like it if when you are thinking those things could you share them with me.

That is only a couple of the examples. I will say that I have noticed the compliments being stated more often than before.

Also I am not saying if he/she would do things my way it would be better, or that he/she SHOULD be doing any thing. Only thing I am saying is with regards to MB and the advice I have received on here and what I have been learning from the books and the web site. I have stated nicely, but yet have not received, so now what?

Thank you MelodyLane, I was beginning to think I got it wrong again and was going back through my post and reply's.

Just keep at it, but more importantly, you need to be building up that love bank via UA time so he FEELS intimate with you. When you go out on your dates, you must be as pleasant as possible.

Have you made out your schedule yet? Is he giving you his undivided attention on your dates?

Because none of this will work if you aren't taking that step.

I do have copies, but this has been a real struggle for us. I am not trying to make excuses but with being stationed over seas in a small rural area, with not much around to do, having our son to consider, and the biggest one is us working thru the "looking" issue it has been tough. Seems like no matter what we have tried or done that the odds are stacked against us in that area. Here is why I say that. Seems like every thing we have tried to do there always seems to be some random female show up, and not just any female, but one with things to look at popping out all over. So then if he even looks to just see that there is a person there regardless of sex, and of course it is a female, then at that point I am done. All of the pain, hurt and resentment come flooding in, so we have to leave, and I become distant. So even if he is not looking, right now it still bothers me, because I am just reliving it all over again.

Understand. So the first step is to line up a babysitter for 3-4 times a week. Then start thinking of things that you would both enjoy.

One idea that comes to mind is driving to dinner in a remote place. Find a nice little restaurant that is in a town about an hour away. That will give you an hour each way of GREAT UA time. Then you have an hour in the destination. He is forced to give you his complete undivided attention the whole way.

Get out a fresh sheet and start penciling in some days and researching restaurants/destinations about an hour away. Start thinking of places you can go and make up a list of suggestions.

Here is the thing: the sooner he makes you his #1 priority, the sooner you are feel cherished and valued.

And BE SURE that his cell phone is turned off on your dates. The only phone calls either of you can take are from your babysitter who should only call if it is an emergency.

A touchy subject to him is anything he feels I am going to be upset with. Like always working late and most of the time he would not even tell me until he was already 20 to 30 min late.
Then by the time he gets home he does not speak or make eye contact, he shuts down. He says it is because he knows I am upset and he afraid of what my reaction will be.



Example one thing is if he receives and email that should be shared with me and does not. And I find out later either by logging on to his email to look or someone else informs me about information that he shared with them instead of me.

So if those things continue how am I ever suppose to get the opportunity to be different, or show him I can be?

Just keep reassuring him that you won't get angry and ask him to please start doing it.




It would alleviate the stress in his life if he just called you and said he is going to be late. I can see that he is worried you will be mad at him, so he is thinking he is damned if he does, damned if he doesn't.

Will you tell him to come here and talk to me?

We did talk about it and I asked him if he could just let me know as soon as he knows, and we both agreed to it. It just does not seem to happen that way.

I will tell him do you want him to come here on my thread, because he has one of his own?

He can meet me on his thread. I will go make a post to him.

When he calls you to tell you he is going to be late will you PLEDGE to be uber pleasant? I can tell he is probably avoiding conflict and doesn't like to disappoint you. You need to help him change this habit. Will you do this?

I am not saying she can't describe her preferences. But if you or you husband would have continued with we should get this lettuce instead of negotiating you may not be where you are today.

That is my point. If she says he should... it can be the same thing as saying he should just get the lettuce you want.

It's a matter of he should or how would you feel about....

Maybe I am not saying this clearly.

I had to state my preference about the lettuce and he had to state his. If we don't KNOW the others preference then we can't negotiate. As far as meeting her needs and avoiding lovebusters, it is very important that she guide him in that process. She has to show him how to meet her needs in the most effective way possible so he can become an expert at doing so. She has to tell him when he makes her unhappy.

Perhaps you are just saying that she shouldn't start off with "you should" and she is not doing that.

Looks like his actions are saying the same thing. He can't change until you change.

One of you has to break the cycle. Make it safe for him to deliver bad news. You are looking for improvement not perfection at this point.

What if he is saying the same thing? If she keeps getting angry, how can he show how he can be?

How about only using a joint email? Skyrimandjeger@aol.com? That you both receive on your phones at once?

Integrate your lives. If you have the same lives, same email, same experiences there will be fewer things he has to remember to tell you about.

Its good transparency too.

Actually, she said many times in her post that he's not doing what he should. I asked for clarification and made a conditional statement. I.E. If she's saying X, then she may be derailing her efforts.

Didn't say she was. Didn't say she wasn't. I asked for clarification via example.

Seems it's not as simple as he's not doing what he "should"

He doesn't call. But, is she getting angry when he does what she wants? Does he feel it's safe to deliver bad news? Is he just forgetting, hasn't learned the habit, or does he believe that calling is just a losing proposition and wants to postpone any pain associated with delivering bad news?

I don't know, that's why I ask.

Are there still females still emailing him "friendly" emails even now? Can you give example/s of what the emails say? I might have a suggestion on how to help resolve this. Indie's suggestion of a shared account is great.

"Actually, she said many times in her post that he's not doing what he should. I asked for clarification and made a conditional statement. I.E. If she's saying X, then she may be derailing her efforts.

Didn't say she was. Didn't say she wasn't. I asked for clarification via example.

Seems it's not as simple as he's not doing what he "should""

Actually it is very simple. He should start calling her when he is late. He should stop gawking at females. Very cut and dry and very simple.

I like indiegirls idea of getting a joint account, but he wouldn't have to tell you what comes into his regulAr account if you just read everything yourself. Your way is not a reliable way to get information anyway. Lets just imagine he is having an affair. Do you think he would tell you about those emails? A better way is just snoop and confront him if you find something that is inappropriate. That way you avoid this game of "you didn't tell me about this."

I will do my best, I promise to give it all I have.

I don't have a problem with a joint account. I can bring up the topic and see how he feels. MelodyLane I will probably continue to snoop for a while. Even with those things if he truly wanted to hide something I am sure he could, or he could even use his work email mail. But I hope to get past of even having those thoughts.

You are right one of us does need to break the cycle.



But in regards to the email example or the being late example, lets say I have explained to him my needs about these situations, and he explains to me how he needs me to react, and we enthusiastically agree on a plan. Now for reasons unknown he is going to be late, but never calls. What then? Neither one of us will know whether or not I was able to do my part, because I never had the opportunity to show him that I have changed that habit. That is why I said what I did about him never giving me the chance.

No more females that I know of. Except for the one we are having to work with about my wedding rings and diamond that where damaged while being cleaned at the jewelers when I took them for their inspection and routine cleaning. The contact person for that is a female. But the last email that he receive that he never shared with me was in regards to her an my ring situation. But it is everyday life situations and events like those that are never shared. So I only find out via someone else or me snooping.

If he fails to call, then when he gets home, you calmly tell him that you know he gets busy at work but it hurts your feelings when he's going to be late and doesn't call or text and from now on to call or text you when he's going to be late. Leave it at that. This way you're calmly reinforcing your need. And your reaction will throw him off in a good way. It will leave a great impression on him.

No I don't think you will. You're too smart and you know all things are possible. I know that my life experiences mean I sure will always be open to the possibility something untoward is happening.

However if he's consistent and open and using PoJA over time you will feel more reassured than you do right now. It will be a low level awareness rather than real anxiety.



When he isn't responding or doing your requests in the way you would like, ask why not. A big part of PoJA is finding out the other person's perspective.


For example he isn't calling when he's late because when work is stressful, he gets forgetful. As a forgetful person myself, I know that it really helps when other people help me come up with ways to remember things. I kept leaving the house with the lights left on, so my mother suggested I put a little red symbol on the back of the front door to remind me.

I know that I wouldn't be up to remembering emails I'd received and passing that information on as well as some people would. I probably would not agree to do that under PoJA. This is why I suggested you simply view all emails through a joint account. Or read his. Another solution (if it's his memory)is for you to ask him if he got any emails, reminding him.

I'm not saying he's forgetful like I am. Just that you need to get at the reasons that are blocking him from a PoJA solution.

Assuming its because he 'didn't listen' is a DJ and blocks you from finding out the real reason.

When you get his reasons, go back to the drawing board and come up with a way to get what what you need, but which also takes his perspective into account.

Ok so in reading His needs Her needs book, and other things on the MB's page. As well as doing the emotional need questionnaire. It raises more questions. With SF being one of the mans top EN's, what the heck is a person suppose to think, in regards to this. This is what I mean, suppose something happen an a wife can not longer meet her spouses SF needs due to a medical/physical reason. What is the wife suppose to do, because according to everything I have been reading, that is going to leave his love bank open for someone else to step in and take up an account. Basically what I am understanding that if for some reason say a wife was in a car accident and it left her unable to have sex ever again, then what happens then to their relationship. Does she just have to worry about him having an affair, or what? Because this concept is really bothering me right now. Same thing if the her top EN was SF and he could not preform for medical reasons. If that is the case goodness sake what is a person to think or do? I am really struggling with this right now.

Many, many people cannot meet their spouse's emotional needs for various reasons. For example, if a spouse has dementia and has to live in a nursing home, he/she can't meet the EN's of his spouse. But those spouses don't seem to mind when their spouse CAN'T meet their EN's and typically are very supportive.

The only time it becomes a problem is when a spouse can meet the other ones needs and WON'T.

Also, there are many different ways to skin a cat. Just because a woman cannot have intercourse does not mean she can't have an enjoyable sex life with her spouse.

The more common dilemma is a spouse who can't meet his wife's need for financial support, because of no fault of his own. He may have been laid off. While it causes stress to the marriage, as long as the laid off spouse does his BEST to find a job, his wife is usually fairly patient. It only causes problems when a spouse is lazy and does nothing to change the situation.

And even if your spouse CAN'T meet your needs, it never ever justifies adultery. If your spouse can't/won't meet your needs, then the other spouse should make doubly sure her lovebank is NEVER open to anyone else. Unmet needs is never an excuse for an affair.

I wouldn't get caught up in the what if you can't do this or that like you ar. You're imagining scenarios that probably will never happen. Right now the task is to concentrate on the present.

One thing that concerns me is your husband has stated that you are questioning him when y'all go out about women that pass by. If your husband is actively and purposefully not looking at other women, you are doing harm by bringing attention to them. I imagine this is very unnerving to him. Melody had a great idea about taking long drives. Maybe finding a restaurant in a town you've never been to. But if along the way he is engaging you and not looking at other women and you start sayin " what about her..." to some woman crossing the street, it's going to make for a miserable time.

I know, it's boggling.

Besides, what's the use anyhow... there is a 1-in-10 billion chance that the earth will be wiped out TOMORROW by a solar flare, so why attempt to have a happy marriage?

Or, I could end up in the dementia unit I've been working at... totally possible, there are 4 people there near age 50 right now.... so why try NOW?

Well, because I have a choice NOW. I can meet my wife's needs TODAY.

Maybe tomorrow, a resident will lose it and impale me with a wheelchair footpedal. So I guess I should do my best to fill up my Love Bank account with my wife TODAY.

This would be the second enemy of good conversation;


http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5056_qa.html

That all makes sense.

I don't question him about women that are in the room or just pass by, I only question him when I have seen his eyes look or glance toward another female. Some times I questions him about a female that we have passed, only if I have no clue as to whether he has looked or not because I can not always see him. Some one suggested that I watch him until I get bored. I do try to watch but that is very hard when he either always walks behind me, or in front of me, because I can not see what his eyes are looking at. Then I will question him, which I know I should not, but it is still all to raw, and even though he is trying, there are times that he slips up and it hurts.

Like the other day, he asked me to come have lunch with him at his work, so I agreed. While there close to the end a female came into the room. First thing he does is look, then he proceeds to get up. Then he looks again. I do not say anything at the time, I bit my tongue and remain pleasant. When I am getting ready to leave a little later and we are standing in the hall, I am getting ready to go through one of the glass doors to head down stairs to leave, He looks past me through the glass wall and looks at the female going into the locker room, which happens to be the same female that came into the break room before when he was looking. I again said nothing but just looked at him like how could you really. I said my good byes nicely and went to the car and cried. I was even dress very nicely that day and fixed my hair the way he likes.

Once I got home I sent him a message about the situation and how it made me feel because I knew I could not do it verbally with out it becoming and AO. This is what he replied. I looked and stood because I did not know who she was and she was and officer, and I was not sure how strict she was about standing when she entered the room. Ok I can understand the first look and standing then, but what about the 2nd and 3rd look. He gave no reason for 2nd look and stated that he does not even remember the 3rd look.

That is the reason I don't want to go out to public places and events. I am so tired of feeling this way inside and hiding my pain and I am so tired of crying. I have never told him that I would not go to dinner with him like Melody had suggested. And he has never asked.

If you cannot see whether he actually looked at a woman you should not ask him if he did. It will make your UA unpleasant.

It is on him to not look. It is on you to watch him to make sure and to follow up with a respectful complaint if you see that he is.

So how is the planning going? Have you scheduled some evenings at restaurants that are an hour away yet?

Print this out, here sit down with your husband and fill it out today. Get your babysitters lined up and your destinations planned. Try and find places that are AT LEAST 45 minutes away.

Come back when you have completed that step.

Sky, I might request that he walks by your side and perhaps even hold your hand while y'all walk together.

I do appreciate all of the advice that everyone has offered.

Right now after spending the last 24 hours in silence because he has decided to shut down and not talk no matter how much I ask nicely, or try to bully him into talking, he has not budged. Nothing.

I am just not willing to live another 12 years this way. I am stuck in a foreign country with no friends no family, no one to talk to or socialize with, except for my H and my son. That situation alone is hard enough, with out his silence, which is pure hell on me and I just don't think I have what it takes to fight an up hill battle that seems never ending and always me losing.

I am ready to back to the states. I feel I need time alone to work on me. Not time feeling lonely.

Why are you trying to bully him into talking?

Why would he expect MB to work when you demonstrate that you are unwilling to use it, instead resorting to your self described bullying?

Seems you need to protect him from your anger. If you don't, he will put up that wall and retreat.

If you get angry and try to bully him, of course he is going to shut down. You have ruined the date when you do that!! I don't understand why you keep doing that when we have told you to stop it. That means stop it NOW, not next week. NOW.

How about trying this again but with a commitment to completely eliminate ALL lovebusters? How did you behave on the FIRST date with him? WEre you angry, demanding, bullying? I seriously doubt it.

The key is to use your intellect to override your emotions. You must get out of the habit of committing lovebusters and he must get out of the habit of gawking.

You are shooting yourself in the foot. You need your husband and are doing everything to push him away and discourage him from trying. You push him away and them complain that he is ............pushed away.

If he messes up and gawks at a woman, you are not entitled to bully him or get angry. There will NEVER be a solution as long as you get angry. We can help you solve the problems but it has to start with eliminating ALL anger.

I have only resulted to bulling as you would call it, when is has been shut down for hours or days.


Why would he expect MB to work?? What about why would I expect MB to work when he demonstrates his ill-regards to my needs, and is always shutting down for hours some time days?


He has always done this whether I have been angry or bulling. He has always chosen to retreat if he even feels that the subject is sensitive and he is not comfortable discussing it.

Who is suppose to protect me? Yes I do need to protect him from my anger, that is why I feel it is best if I take some time away.

How am I pushing him away? Even when I don't get angry he is still not willing to do all of the MB steps. No that is not a DJ it is an observation, over the last few weeks. He seems to pick an choose what he feels. I am not sure why he chooses the things he does and not the others.


Am I not entitled to my feelings? I understand that I should not bully him, but I do not understand how I am not entitled to get angry, or should I say feel angry, hurt and totally disrespected? I understand that I should not be snapping at him or yelling, or talking to him in a disrespectful manner. However my taker has been in charge for a very long time and according to Dr. Harley when the anger/taker has taken over and in charge it is like a moment of insanity. I am working on it and yes I admit that I still do not have control. Again another reason for me to step away.

You don't get to decide how long it is ok for him to be shut down.

After all, you don't let him decide that what you call gawking is just the normal catching your eye.

Get it. Just as he cannot define for you what constitutes a glance vs gawking, you don't get to define for him how long he shuts down due to feeling it's unwise or unsafe to continue in a line of conversation.
You may have a point. But answer this, is your anger helping or hurting the situation? You want him to try MB, but you are not yet putting it into practice. Or you are using it when it suits you, but if you don't get your way, out the door it goes and the bullying replaces it.
Which is perfectly normal. No one is asking you to be comfortable when he does things like gawking. So why do you expect him to be comfortable?

Just as he cannot say you are too sensitive, you also cannot say he's too sensitive when it comes to these topics.

So what you are saying is that it's ok for you to retreat, but when he does, it's not right?

That's how this is coming across.

Instead of judging him for being shut down, what are you doing to learn what it takes for him to be enthusiastic about resuming the conversation?

I have been reading my spouses post on here the same as he has been reading mine.

I have not said anything up to this point about the things that he has posted, because I am sure it is a DJ and his perspective. However, when he post things he has a way with words. He has a way of making it sound as if he has been doing and trying everything that people have suggested, when if fact he has not. It also leads people to believe that I am not willing to try or do certain things. Well I have been very honest about what I am willing to try in regards to UA. Which he also leads you to believe that he has been trying to set up time, when in fact all he has done is research things on his lap top, almost every evening this weekend, while reaming silence. So with out both of us being open and honest about things I am not sure how the advice will work. Maybe I am wrong in posting this I am not sure, I just feel that I need share this information.

Throwing him under the bus doesn't address your bullying behavior.

I get it, but when he is the only person that I know and my only form of communication, what the heck am I suppose to do? Just sit here and hurt. Like I said he has done this from the beginning of our relationship, even before I would have AO's or bully.

And he can gawk and look all he wants, that was not the issue I had with it. My issue is the feelings he is having when doing so when he is a married man.

Well I am sure it is not helping, but what am I suppose to do with the feelings inside me. I literally feel that my heart will explode at times from all of the pain, then I turn the pain into anger. So what do I do with the pain?

No I am not using it when it suits me, I am still trying to learn everything, so yes there will be mistakes. I am not sure what constitutes bulling? Yes I have AO's DJ's, but the only time I guess I would consider me bulling him is trying to get him to talk to me.

How is what he is doing any better or different?



No I am not comfortable knowing that my husband, who is suppose to love and protect me, is looking at other women and getting some type of pleasure from it. But I can not compare a conversation that maybe become heated to the same level. I am sure he is not comfortable, but as you and others have stated if someone does not break the cycle then it will never end. Guess I just have not been strong enough to do that yet.


I am saying that if I am suppose to protect him from my anger and such, then right now I am not strong enough to do so. So therefore I need to leave. I have been in the state of withdrawal for a very long time. Sometimes I am not sure why I have stayed this long. Guess I was hoping for a miracle. I have asked him and I am reading all the material that I have, so I am not sure what else I can do to learn what it takes if he is not willing to share.

If we are not both willing to be honest on here in order to get appropriated help and feed back then what is the point?

Plus I have felt from the first time you have commented on my thread that you have been very judgmental and harsh toward me.

I am not sure why, but I have found that to be more detrimental that helpful. Maybe it is just the way you state things, I am just not sure.

I just don't sugar coat or use kid gloves.

I admit, I don't have much tolerance for double standards.

And what makes you think it is me that is being the one using the double standards? Just because I am willing to share on here. I came here first. I was looking for something after 12 freaking years of nothing. No communication, no needs being met, and finding out that while I am in one country and my husband is in another he is contacting women via facebook talking about making plans to get to see them. So don't even pretend to know what I am dealing with right now, and please don't pass judgement on me.

I am telling you what you sound like from this perspective.

Your husband is shutting down. You said it. He says it.

What you've done for the past 12 years isn't working. Your instincts, your judgements and your behaviors have not made it better in those 12 years.

What I see is someone fighting against those who are giving you a third party view of what they see.

If your perspective, talents and skills are working for you, then by all means keep on doing what you've been doing.

You can put anyone you don't agree with on ignore and continue on your path.

Or you can ask why folks shut down.

People, for the most part, act in what they believe is their best interest. Right or wrong, your husband has decided it is in his best interest to keep his mouth shut and wait until the perceived storm blows over.

It may not be in the best interest of your marriage. But then that just means there are two who are willing to act in their own self interests, often at the expense of their spouse.

Anger is one of the most destructive forces in a relationship. If your relationship has any chance of survival, all anger must be replaced with respectful requests and negotiation.

I see you complain about things he does, but then give yourself a pass when you are doing the same or very similar things.

I never pretend to know how you feel. But I do know what it is like to be betrayed. Anger and frustration are NOT traits that a spouse, wayward or otherwise typically find attractive.

If you've really had 12 years of nothing as you put it. Then what are you trying to save? I don't ask that in a flippant fashion. I really want to know.

Is it really 12 years of nothing? Or is that an exaggeration?

If nothing, then why save it. If it's an exaggeration, it's possible this is part of the problem as to why you are stuck.

Imagine hearing that from his side. For 12 years, she claims I've done nothing. If that's the case, it's hopeless, why try.

He's shut down. Is it possible that the above scenario, or one like it is playing out?

I'm just asking you to look at your behaviors and see if any of them could be sabotaging any possible recovery.

Or, if it's not exaggeration, then examine why you want to save your marriage give the stated lack of need meeting.

I'm just a mirror, imperfectly reflecting what I see. I may be wrong. I certainly don't have all the details. And hopefully, my reflections are helpful or at least get you thinking about possible changes you can make in your approach.

I don't know what it's like to be the unfaithful spouse. But I can share from my vast experience and mistakes I made in hopes that others will not make the same errors as I did.

skyrim, I don't have a lot of free time to spend on this forum. I have a full time career and a marriage. I have spent enormous time on this thread telling you how to turn this around. You have followed NONE of my advice.

I can help you take action, but I won't come here and deal with your anger. You want to be entitled to anger? Fine, that is your prerogative. It is my prerogative to not waste my time on a no win situation.

I don't mind posting to someone who is serious about working this program, but I don't have any extra time for someone who is not serious. Good luck.

I have only resulted to bulling as you would call it, when is has been shut down for hours or days.

[quote]

That does not make it OK to bully someone.

If he never talked to you again, it would stll not be OK to get ugly.


A very sad attitude.

One thing I've noticed is that when you get called in something you're doing wron, you make your husband look worse and worse. Essentially it appears you want to make all the issues in the marriage his fault.

Have you asked him why he shuts down? There's something about the way you're responding to him that makes him feel uncomfortable in talking to you. When I used to shut down, it's because my wife would get snappy and when I'd tell her something bothered me, she'd turn it around on me. In other words, it turned into what I was doing wrong and a total disregard for my viewpoint

Skyrim,


One thing you need to understand, is that posters here who are experienced in helping others learn Marriage Builders aren't going to spend a lot of time joining the chorus berating your husband.

That would be an exercise in futility.

So, if you continue along with the "But, but, but.... MY HUSBAND does x...!" People will bow out 1-by-1.

People will help your husband with HIS behaviors on HIS thread.

YOUR thread is going to be targeted to YOUR behaviors.

Also; your 'tude about the "bullying" is strange... as people are referring to YOUR admission to "trying to bully him into talking."

You stated your behavior, you have been advised to knock it off. So... KNOCK IT OFF. Your husband's Love Busting behaviors no more justify your Love Busting behaviors, than your Love Busting behaviors justify his.

Are you prepared to start using Marriage Builders to keep YOUR side of the street clean?

The feeling is frustration, and the reaction to frustration is anger. So, you are entitled to be frustrated, but anger is your choice in how you are reacting to the frustration. No, you are not entitled to be angry.

Correct me if I'm wrong but anger is perfectly fine. Our feelings whatever they may be are okay. It's how we react to our anger and frustrations that is the issue

I'm happy to correct you. You are wrong!

The MB model says that anger is a reaction to frustration.

I disagree, I have been trying everything you have asked of me and I am still trying. Just because I am not perfect and things happen over night, or that I still revert at times does not mean that I am not trying.


I have said nothing toward you that I feel was in anger. Yes I am angry at the way Enlighten_Ex has been so crude in his response to me. I felt that this was a safe place to come and bare my soul. While at the same time getting help for my marriage. Not to be felt like I am being attacked.


That is fine if that is the way you feel, and from my perspective in you saying that I am not taking this serious is a disrespectful judgment on your part. But thank you for all of your advice.

You are right if he never spoke again it would not be ok for me to do that, at the same time if he never talked again what am I suppose to be doing during that time? And that is a very serious question.

I guess I don't see it that way as far as trying to make him look worse. I just want everyone to have as clear of a picture as possible.

I really don't feel that all the issues are his fault. I know that I have mine and I don't feel that I have been afraid to admit it. I know I am not perfect and I know I came into our marriage with baggage from my past.


I have asked, and just asked again today. He has stated in the past that he shuts down because he does not know what to do or say, and this is even before any angry outburts or DJ or anything has happen. He would just shut down. He has also stated that it could be because he has to think about things to much, and analyze every possible out come or reaction I may have before he tells me something.

Today he state that it is because he fears what my response will be.

I don't know that this is a DJ, but for the sake of argument, let's say it is. So, what? DJs are lovebusters that we need to avoid with those people we want to remain in love with, but what about others? What about DJs that are true? While it might we nice to avoid all DJs, it is hardly required. In the context of giving you advice, what would you prefer, the truth or just nice words?

I am not asking for that.



Just thought I was being honest about things and having questions. Maybe I need to look at how I am asking them.



See that is where I guess I am stated things wrong or something. Lately I have been trying to not bully(push) him into talking. I said that I typically only resulted to that after so long. And I have been stopping conversation on my own as soon as I realize I have completely lost control and my taker has taken over. I will even leave the room and go find something to do until I feel that I can not be snappy.

Guess that makes sense put that way. However it is not just frustration that I feel, I am hurt as well, but I do see how anger is a choice, an that I guess that has been a choice I have made for years, even before we met.

Yes it is!

And we are dying to get you to that answer.

There is a good technique and a bad technique for dealing with it.

The bad technoque is anger. The bad technique makes everything worse. Each time you do it, things get a little worse.

We need you to stop doing the bad technique FIRST.

Before you can use the good one.

Can we get an agreement from you that you should stop using AOs right now so you can progress?

You will also have to accept that your husband will be a little gunshy for a while until he learns to trust you have control and won't use AOs no matter what.

I suspect if the bad techniques end, on a consistent basis, much of the problem will be solved.

He may still be thinking it out. But he may be willing to say, let me think about it and get back to you by some specific time.

Seems there are two components to this.

1. His thinking how to respond.
2. His fear of a bad reaction.

Remove #2, and it will be easier for him to return after he's thought about it. Why? Because his thoughts will NOT be filled with images of a bad reaction by your.

You mean you are telling me from your perspective.



Not fighting just trying to understand and learn in a safe atmosphere.



Thanks I did not know that, and even though I don't agree with it does not mean that I don't need to hear it. But there are better more tactful was of stating things.


I guess this would be where our takers are in control?

Give me an example, in a respectful manner?



Because in the beginning when we met, before we got married it was not that way, and for the first year or so it was not that way either. So I guess the 12 years was a wrong statement, considering we have been together 14 years and married 12 1/2 of those. I guess just like everyone else some how we were meeting each others needs, with out even know it. Plus I still some how even with out my needs being met, Love him or the him that I just to know. I don't want to picture my life with out him, but at the same time I don't want to continue to be so unhappy and lonely. Maybe those are not good reasons for wanting to save it? I don't know they are the only ones I have right now.

This is possible the best statement you have said to me.

I am sure that some are. Seems we humans are pretty good at sabotaging ourselves.

Oh and I am really not exaggerating about the needs being met, or at least I don't feel like I am. Like I stated in the beginning they had to be, right?



Maybe just a little less harsh would be nice, but yes they have got me thinking a lot. Just to be clear so that there is not misunderstanding, as far as I know he has never been unfaithful to me at least sexually. Yes, he was making plans or trying to make plans to meet with this women. But after talking to him about it, he states that it was a previous supervisor and that the only reason he was going to stop and see her at her place of work was to get some information he needed for his supervisor here at this place of work. Felt that I should put that out there that way I am not accused of making false statements or trying to make him look worse.

Yes, if it is safe to say when I feel that the taker is taking hold, that it is ok for me to redirect myself and attention to something else until I gain control again and learn to shut the taker down before it does take hold?

Is it ok to ask, that with the bad techniques ended, and there are things that he has shared or told me about that is upsetting or hurtful, what would be a proper response?

I guess I really don't know.

The upsetting stuff will usually fall into a category - DJ, SD, AO, AH. Have a sheet for each and write it down all week. Be calm, knowing that your H is going to earn your trust back, that this is temporary short-term stuff. Don't worry, if it doesn't change it's going to get obvious really quickly. The at the set time for the week you share the lists. Do you have the LB books? There are end-of the chapter exercises for each. There's probably even enough here on the site to address the stuff.

Just don't let it ruin your week, life is too short. You just have a short last stretch here before things change in an obvious way or not.

Yes we do have the LB's book and we have been reading through it and we have bought the HN HN's book and I just ordered last night the 5 steps to romantic love work book.

Thanks for the encouragement. I will start the list today.

No if. Just do.,

If you can't control yourself because of whatever reason, excuse yourself until you CAN.

Wonder why your husband "shuts down?"


Because he is managing his emotional response.



You have 1 option when a conversation becomes unpleasant; stop having the conversation.

Either a) change the subject, or b) take some time out to calm down, then come back... and change the subject.

Sorry I did not notice the if when I was typing, it is a type-o that sentence should read, "Yes, is it safe to say......" Not the "Yes, if it is safe to say..." I guess I need to proof read what I am about to post.


Understood

Skyrim, a couple of more thoughts:

1) A good marriage doesn't need boundaries - when you two are in State of Intimacy he naturally won't do the things that upset you once he's aware of them. This is where noting it down helps. And it will get so infrequent that you'll be able to mention it naturally in the moment and then go back to your day.

2) It's going to feel so awesome when you can catch the anger before it rises, write the stuff down before it gets bad. I yelled at my kids for years and it always left me feeling ragged and awful because I don't want to be like that. I haven't raised my voice now in a few years and I like my life so much better. I don't remember if you're a yeller or how your anger affects you but it was so awesome to not have to go to that place to get to where I want my life to be.

By the way I know what AO, DJ, SD are but what does AH stand for?


My anger comes out in crudeness and yes if it is let go enough then snapping and yelling. You are right you don't feel good afterwards, it just leaves you feeling even worse about everything and still nothing is solve and more has been added because of it.

So with writing these things down. Am I suppose to write what I am getting frustrated about, and with the other am I suppose to write what DJ's I am thinking or want to say. But of course not saying them, or is that for me to write down when he has done those to me?


Guess I am just not sure exactly what I am suppose to be writing and are we both suppose to be doing this or is this exercise just for me to help me gain perspective?

The writing that should be done is each of you should keep a written weekly worksheet where you record things your spouse did or said that you found demanding, disrespectful, or angry. Then you should exchange worksheets each week.

AH is annoying habits. I remember reading in the article that you pick one to eliminate, then once that is gone 2 and 3. Then by then the rest of the list doesn't bother you the same way any more. But if something does then that can be eliminated too.


Yes then there is this nasty thing to rehash, too, that no one wants to talk about. Much better to just nip it in the bud before it gets to that point!


Write what is frustrating to you. For example when you hear him DJ put it on the DJ page. And yes I think it's both of you do this. He writes down the DJs he hears from you. And then at the end of the week you look at them. You have the book, sounds simpler like for example if you both are working on the DJ chapter write down one other's DJs to go over at the end of the week. So you don't have to keep track of everything.

What LB are you two working on eliminating this week?

Thanks markos for clarifying!

Mine is AO's right now and learning how to not make demands,and making sure that the request are respectful. I did not realize how many demands that we actually make of each other, until now with the information we are learning here.

Are you in an anger management program?

No, but I have looked into what is offered over here where we are stationed. Not many options unless you can speak the native language, which I can not. However there is this program they offer on base, it is through Military life consultants, I have place a call to them and waiting on their return call.

Good job on getting help.

I have an anger problem also. I also took anger management.

What helped me more than anything was Love Busters and Dr. Harley's anger management 101 and talking to Dr. Harley.

Have you read Love Busters? Listened to Dr. Harley's anger management 101? Have you written Dr. Harley?

What really got through to me was when Dr. Harley said no one makes you lose your anger, you control your own anger.

I have been reading Love Busters, and I did listen to Dr. Harley's andger management 101. I have not written him about my anger though, I have written him about other things.

I think after someone had state that anger is a choice, and someone also said how they feel afterwards and that they did not want to do that to any one including their kids. Then someone pointed out how would I feel if I were on the receiving end. I think it finally hit me and I started thinking about it, and I would not want to be the receiver, so then why would I want to be doing it. So I have been trying to make sure that it does not happen. My husband even said he has notice a difference and that he really appreciates me try. I believe that is a big step in the right direction.

That's fantastic Sky; remember his assessment is the most accurate with this particular issue.

Good for you skyrim for making the change. One of these days, I'm hoping it's today, you're going to feel your confidence return that you know you can protect yourself and your family from your anger, and it's gonna feel awesome!

And I'm hoping that contagious enthusiasm and confidence will spill over to your H. He totally has everything he needs to protect him and your family from his stuff, too!

Here's your show.
Radio Clip of skyrim's Show
Segment #2
Segment #3

Thanks for the encouragement everyone and thanks for sending me the radio clips of when I was on.

You're welcome.

How are you doing?

Some days seem a little harder than others, but I do think we are making progress. We still have a lot to learn and learning how to negotiate is an area we both struggle. Not because we don't want to or that we are being selfish, it is that sometimes neither one of us seem to be able to come up with any brainstorming solutions. None, no good ones and no bad ones, just noting and not for lack of trying. Guess with this concept being so new an fresh that we have not learned enough of it yet.

Radio Clip
Segment #2
Segment #3