When I'm honest and respectful this causes my wife to feel bad. She has a great need to be dishonest, mostly anything related to self esteem. I feel pigeon-holed in two ways:

1. If I respectfully tell my wife that something she said or did makes me feel bad she always tells me that I'm just taking it the wrong way. In essence she doesn't have make these changes because in her mind it's really just my character issue of taking things the wrong way. In other words she tells me how I need to think.

2. When my wife asks me to do something, she always attaches a reason. Problem is the reason aren't really reasons they are excuses. In other words, she just doesn't want to do it so she wants me to do it for her. An example would be, "Can you walk the kids to school so that I can get ready?" Seems reasonable, but the truth is she isn't really getting ready for at least an hour. So when I comply and I come home and she hasn't even begun the process of getting ready I have to conclude her intentions were to gain at my expense. In the mean time I've put off handling customers and returning email in the process.

I guess what I'm saying is that my wife's life experiences have caused her to build many sub-conscious protection instincts and this is interfering with her ability to be honest. I'm not looking for some exemption or exception, I'm truly here trying to figure out how communicate with her about what bothers me, respectfully, without having it make her feel bad.

I have an unwilling participant here in MB and I've been at it for over two years. It is kind of getting old and I'm looking for a fresh perspective.

Welcome to MB.

Would she be willing to do coaching or online program?

What books have you read?

BH I'm not new to this. My wife and I both used to be here but MB is also a LB in her book. No, she is not willing at this time or perhaps ever. I've read every single book Dr H has ever created. Background is that someone suggested that I "start snooping" at one point. It wasn't a bad idea, but I went about it the wrong way and ended up accusing her of an affair 4 times in 4 months. I was in a bad place at the time and it wrecked this program to a degree that made it unrecognizable in the eyes of my wife. In the meantime I've changed to become the man I've always wanted to be, but she has decided not to follow. The hard part is things aren't horrible to be honest. I mean needs are half-met if that and she is much less disrespectful as compared to before, but I still know that we do not have a great marriage and we may never have one. To her she is a resounding success as compared to her parents. To me we are a failure as compared to my parents. It is all perspective I guess. I have this idea of being madly in love with each other but I don't think she is capable of that so I'm trying to squeeze everything I can out of the lemon to make it as best as it can be. Is she worth divorcing all things considered? No. She is selfish objectively speaking, but when we do spend time it is quite fulfilling, but when she is stressed and feeling bad about herself it can be quite a drain.

What do you mean you accused her 4 times? Did you have any evidence? Suspicions?

What were they?

So how much UA time are you getting?

No evidence, this was my point. I was emotional and irrational and didn't follow the steps. My wife never cheated on me but my accusations were so devastating that she blamed MB forum advice rather than me.

UA time is better than before but more like 5 hours a week instead of 15. MB is a LB to my wife. Good to year from you again, I'm HopelessAndOutOfEnergy. In other words my wife regularly patrols the forum to see if I'm posting and it makes more sense to start a new thread. Make sense?

Yes makes sense.

Have you ever emailed Dr. Harley?

So how long has it been since you've become the man you've always wanted to become?

Is there anyway to increase your UA time?

I just had my email read on yesterday's show about my wife being a narcissist. Might be a bit off, but I've been grasping at straws of late. Dr H said my plan was much like anarchy which doesn't work and I quickly threw it aside.

I've been that man for a year or so I'd say. I've been in a constant state of reinventing myself with the goal of getting my wife to fall in love with me but it just hasn't panned out. She is very selfish still. We had our anniversary and we went for a run together and had an amazing day. It went back to normal though and we ended up getting in a dispute a few days later. It was much the same to be honest. She was rude and I told her I didn't like how she made me feel and she told me I took it the wrong way, etc. I go back and forth between feeling like I'm getting somewhere and then realizing that I'm not. Kind of sucks but then again we are so much healthier than before. I give her some credit for that, but mostly me. In any case maybe I can find a snippet to work with that I didn't catch before. Steve is $225 an hour and I have a wife that is an unwilling participant so it is hard to part with that much dough knowing that I'm working with someone that is unwilling to work the MB program you know?

I know who exactly who you are, HL. The background covered it.

I would advise that you continue to do as you have been doing, and doing everything you can to; eliminate every last Love-Busting habit of yours, and to inform her when she Love-Busts you.

You don't have to mention or reference this program to your wife to LIVE the program, KWIM?

A hard-headed, stubborn, snippy wife can be turned around by a patient and respectful husband.

Quit keeping score, and get your side of the street SHINING.

P.S. - don't get yourself tangled in "disputes"... which, is of course, a way to say ARGUMENT. Despite her disrespectful ways, when YOU participate, YOU lose any credibility to criticize (which you shouldn't do anyway, because it's a disrespectful judgment).

Honesty is a must. You cant row the boat with your partner while hiding your oar, or keeping quiet about an obstacle you see that she doesnt, know what I mean?

Dr Harley says the respectful way to bring up complaints is to say
'How would you feel about doing x'?

For example when she was rude, say something like:

'How would you feel, in future, if intead of saying x, you said it more like y? It would make me feel happier and more motivated'.

Then when she responds with something defensive or with excuses herself etc, stick stubbornly to respectful ground.

'Yeah but how would you FEEL, honestly, about doing that?' Make it clear that how SHE feels about your complaint is very important.

If she says: 'Well, not good. I don't want to do that all. I want you to stop being so sensitive.' RESPECT her choice in the matter.

'Well I thought I would see how you felt about that, honey. It is of course, up to you'.

Next time say it slightly differently.

'This reminds me of the last time I brought this up when you said x. This still bothers me, I am unhappy. You didn't like my idea last time, how would you feel about coming up with a solution we both like to solve this once and for all?'

If she says yes, go through the POJA steps (just dont refer to MB or call it POJA) If she says no reply: 'It requires your enthusiasm, so it is up to you of course.'

It is NEVER disrespectful to say consistently: 'This bothers me. I need it resolved, at some point. How would you feel about helping me do that?'

If you display respect at all times, you will be her lighthouse and not give her any traction to 'dispute' against.

Allowing her to say no is respectful. Requests which 'demand' a yes are not free requests at all. Her choices are up to her. And so are the consequences.

However you aren't willing to let her face any consequences are you?



People live up to the bar they are set.

She likes things from her persepective, she isn't motivated to consider your perspective, and she knows you arent going to take away her set up. Why would she change?

Having previously been in your 'it's not bad enough to leave, exactly' position, I can heartliy concur with Dr Harley when I say relationships either get stronger, or weaker.

Your marriage will not coast forever in this neither good nor bad position.

Use of PoJA, where both perspectives are considered, cause a couple to grow in the same direction, to make wise choices and build romantic love.

Absence of PoJA, which is your situation, causes distance to widen as time grows on, and builds resentment and discord.

Lack of PoJA is relationship cancer, and without resolving it, you face a divorce now, or much later but at some time it will come - without treatment.

Plus someone who does not consider your feelings and who makes independet decisions is ripe for an A. Continue snooping on that score, but keep a cooler head and look for firm evidence.

As others have said there is no need to use MB books or terms. In fact doing so is against PoJA because she isn't enthusiastic and it will be akin to preaching to her.

But you can use the principles to be respectful and do a great Plan A. Also remember that Plan B - a separation to show how serious you are about not settling for a low bar - is NOT divorce.

HL,

Have you practiced eliminating the negatives in your attempts to communicate her LBs?

Instead of telling your wife she is doing this or that that makes you feel this way or that way simply tell her what you'd like her to do. Complaints are supposed to be good in a marriage but your W isnt onboard.

Dr Chalmers had us practice using the phrase "I would love it if...." when asking for an EN to be met or when we wanted a different behavior (eliminate an LB.

It seems you telling her your complaints only leads to an argument. No arguing .... just negotiating.

Wow! That is one impressive disrespectful judgement!

I have to wonder just how successful you are in not openly expressing disrespect to your wife when you are cultivating thoughts like that inside you.

I am not sure how else to say it objectively. Can you and I call things what they are, I'm already dealing with a spouse that refuses to do that. I know what and who I'm dealing with and my wife prefers to operate on a level of dishonesty that is directly related to her upbringing. Her mother abused her her entire life and still does. She isn't good enough, pretty enough, etc. So there are reasons that she is how she is but not excuses. The knee jerk reaction to everything that might zero in on that self esteem is much more powerful than her desire to be honest with me. Her entire life is seen through this perspective even if it has nothing to do with me at all.

That is the dilemma which I continue to try and figure out. If I ignore her dishonesty, which is a LB to me, then we get along pretty good, but it makes it hard to sustain. You are correct that I have chosen a path of passive-aggressive behavior because even when being respectful her knee jerk reactions rear their heads and it drives her away from me. In other words she wants me to let her to operate on a level of dishonesty and in exchange there will be no conflict, OR, respectfully address her(which makes her feel bad all on her own) and live in a constant state of conflict.

UA time helps things tremendously, but with 3 little ones this has been a constant struggle. I ask for it and we get out 1-2 nights per week. The rest of the nights she likes to watch tv and unwind after the kids go down so that time isn't the most productive for US.

What you described is exactly what I do but I could probably be a little bit more persistent. I'm doing all I can do. I speak to a therapist once a week, who knows my plan, and helps talk me through it to stay focused. She knows of this arrangement and I've been perfectly honest with her that I'm "working on my side of the fence." My wife has seen major changes in me but this has not motivated her to do the same.

I keep great tabs on my wife and regularly monitor all forms of communication and there is simply nothing there. I'll continue to do this in the trust but verify format. There are moments that she is good to me and we really have built some RA activities, such as running together, that are awesome. I would say our relationship has gotten stronger for sure, no question about it, but the progress is at a turtle's pace because of this constant need to deflect, blame, and be dishonest.

The difference between a DJ and an accurate description of poor behaviour is a fine distinction.

But an important one. It takes some time to learn, but is well worth learning. It is not a DJ to say you have proof of past dishonesty in your wife. It is not a DJ to say she was raised by someone who practiced proven dishonesty.

It IS however a DJ to say she is ultimately at her heart dishonest, prefers to be dishonest, will always be dishonest, and that she cannot change because of the way she was raised! These are nothing more than unproven judgements and very disrespectful ones at that.

We can all do better with help. And we all want that at heart.

For example if your wife tells you she paid a bill on time, but then you read that she sent a message to a friend saying: "I forgot to a pay a bill and lied to hubby about it' then you can accurately call this instance dishonest. But you still couldn't call her a habitually dishonest person, because it may have been a one off.

If you find out she didnt pay the bill, as she claimed but you dont have proof of dishonesty, then it may be she made an honest mistake. If she is forgetful, rather than dishonest this is a stumbling block. You will seek to fix her 'dishonesty' rather than her forgetfulness - which isn't the real problem.


A prime example is here:



Rather than dishonesty this could be down simply to poor planning. She could have honestly intended to get ready, but an hour isn't very long to get distracted by other tasks that 'will just take five minutes'. How do you know it is true dishonesty and not just disorganisation? You may be trying to fix the wrong problem. That is the danger of assumption.


If she wants her self esteem boosting, what on earth does that have to do with a need for dishonesty?

Give her honest and accurate compliments. I dont think she would be unhappy with those. She would be a strange woman if she desired insincere compliments, which she knew full well to be untrue.

Complaints also should be upbeat and positive and made with her self esteem in mind. When we ask our spouses to do something for us, it should be with an 'I know you are amazing, thoughtful and can do it' attitude.

If we phrase complaints in a positive encouraging way, there's no need for the self esteem to suffer.

PoJA is above all else, cheerful.

This all sounds amazing. Well done.

However you will only make slow progress until you eliminate love busters.

Trying to fill up the lovebank before you ahve done that is like trying to fill a bucket with a hole in it.

I would read up on lovebusters to make doubly sure you have a firm base FIRST.

The posters here have already spotted some demands and DJs you may have been making, so you can benefit from asking for tweaking here as you go forward.

I was amazed at the things considered lovebusters when I first started posting. As a woman I had never considered getting teary to be a SD. But it is - it says 'Do as I wish or you will have a weepy woman on your hands'. Through MB I have learned to negotiate cheerfully and positively.

I do hope you havent said anything of this sort to her. Hearing that our outlook on life is wrong (even if it is) and that our spouse has better ideas than we do, is very irritating.

Why doesn't she Plan B her mother?

Welcome back! I'm glad to hear things are a lot better than they were. Have you noticed it's hard to have a bad attitude around a happy person, it just kind of deflates? I've seen the folks here who listen to the show a lot, and it gives them a more long term perspective where the daily stuff doesn't bother them anymore. It gives them like this midwest "we got this" attitude. That would be my suggestion,listen to the show a lot or spend family time IRL with those folks that don't get flustered.

Self esteem causes her to be dishonest, I certainly don't think she consciously does it. If I respectfully tell her my complaint, she begins to feel bad about what she did or said to me which is a direct hit on her self esteem. She must protect it at all times, so my complaints get rejected or deflected.

As far as my assessment of her being dishonest, it isn't a judgment it is a diagnosis, one that she herself says all the time, yet is unable to reconcile. I used a poor choice of words to say she "prefers" to be dishonest, in fact I don't think she wants to do it, but her sub-conscious is the more powerful of the two and almost always wins. Her sub-conscious mechanisms are the main reasons why she is often disrespectful or dishonest about everything, I mean even silly things that don't involve me at all. This isn't an occasional moment of feeling poorly and telling a white lie, it is how she approaches all things in life with all people and all issues.

I reject that my assessment was assumptive in nature. If my wife had said, "Honey, I stayed late at the gym and now I'm running behind, can you take the kids to school this morning so I'm not quite so rushed?" I'd say sure and I wouldn't find it be a LB at all. It never works that way, I mean NEVER. There is always a dishonest reason behind whatever she asks of me, am I clear? It is truly remarkable and probably unfathomable for you to believe what I'm telling you, in fact I sometimes can't believe it myself. She is not dishonest about other areas of her life at all. In fact she even feels uncomfortable telling our friends "We have other plans." even though we really don't to get out of going somewhere. All things are to be assigned blame at all times, period end of story. The other day her Ipod button broke and she was convinced that somebody broke it. I said, "Well sometimes things get used for awhile and break over time." She replied, "Nope, one of you did it and I need a new one now." I can't be more adamant that what I just wrote to you.

What I will do is to further become an expert of making sure that my respectful requests have no undertones at all that she might find to be Disrespectful which is no easy task. She wasn't feeling well this morning so I said, "Poor thing, you don't look so well" as I kissed her on the cheek. She said sarcastically, "Gee thanks honey!" We are talking trigger hair.

Gosh no, not if I want to be married to this woman, but I used to when we would fight in the past. 100% off limits forever and is about the worst thing I could ever do to her.

Because she has a hidden power over her. Not sure, she admits that she'll never have the relationship that she wants with her mother, yet is inextricably drawn towards trying to please her.

Yes which is why I find other things to do when I'm around my frequently grumpy wife. It is a total drag to be around. What you are suggesting is that the things that are a drain on my energy will be more tolerable if I'm in a more positive environment more often. I try to do this whenever possible.

This makes no sense at all. Her lying is unconscious - but she herself admits it? How can it be both conscious and unconscious?



You missed my point. What I said was she might ask you to give her time for one thing, then use it for another - that doesn't make her dishonest. It could be a thoughtless change of plan - but that isnt dishonesty. It equally could be disorganisation.

I'm perfectly willing to believe that she uses dishonesty with you a lot as it's a common marriage problem. But I'm puzzled as to why you only have vague examples of things that might not be dishonesty at all. If she was dishonest as habitually as you claim, you would have a lot of clear cut examples of dishonesty.



Again, this isn't dishonesty! She's made a DJ that her family have lied to her about breaking the iPod - but that is not necessarily a lie!

One of the best ways to spot DJs is to look out for the words 'never' and 'always'. i you find yourself saying to your spouse 'you never' or 'you always' - watch out. I would count how often you have just used the words in your post.

Is it accurate to use these words?

I have known some pretty habitual liars in my time but hardly any that 'always' lie and are 'never' truthful.

Great news.

"This makes no sense at all. Her lying is unconscious - but she herself admits it? How can it be both conscious and unconscious?"

If you think about it, she is aware that she has a tendency to do this, but is frequently unaware when it happens in real time.

"You missed my point. What I said was she might ask you to give her time for one thing, then use it for another - that doesn't make her dishonest. It could be a thoughtless change of plan - but that isnt dishonesty. It equally could be disorganisation.

I'm perfectly willing to believe that she uses dishonesty with you a lot as it's a common marriage problem. But I'm puzzled as to why you only have vague examples of things that might not be dishonesty at all. If she was dishonest as habitually as you claim, you would have a lot of clear cut examples of dishonesty. "

If she was disorganized, which she is, then she would say, "You know I didn't plan very well today and ran into a friend at the gym, can you take the kids to school?" I'll say it again, this is not what she says ever. She will inevitably and invariably come up with an excuse as to why she needs me to take the kids to school that is dishonest at it's core. Her being disorganized or wanting to change her mind(which is fine) doesn't mean she gets a free pass to be dishonest if you and I are being 100% honest and objective about the situation.

"Again, this isn't dishonesty! She's made a DJ that her family have lied to her about breaking the iPod - but that is not necessarily a lie!

One of the best ways to spot DJs is to look out for the words 'never' and 'always'. i you find yourself saying to your spouse 'you never' or 'you always' - watch out. I would count how often you have just used the words in your post.

Is it accurate to use these words?

I have known some pretty habitual liars in my time but hardly any that 'always' lie and are 'never' truthful."

I use "never" and "always" with you not her, as I said I've been at this a long time. Look, I understand you've been on these forums a long time and you are able to identify patterns and traits that translate from a forum post to action in real life. You kind of have to live in my shoes to experience what I'm talking about. It IS quite literally "always." Context is important and although the words might be interpreted as a DJ about the Ipod, context tells me that this is her MO, her pattern. Assigning blame without proof may not be a lie but it is most certainly dishonest if you are and I are being objectively truthful with each other. We are desensitized in today's world and when we blame others some of us don't even flinch.

I also know that it is very easy to find fault with the arguments of objective thinkers because we are all tainted by our life experiences and see things with a more subjective lens. We are so caught up in trying "not to offend others" that objective thought is almost abrasive. There is a balance though. If we only see things with our subjective lens then we frequently are unable to see things for what they are. The inability to be objective trashes marriages all over the country and everything Dr H has figured out has backed that up. My wife is in fact dishonest much of the time and I do not believe for one second that "one man's lie is another man's truth" or any variation of the sort.

To get back to it again, the dilemma I currently face is that I don't know what to do when faced with an LB from my wife that involves a dishonest portrayal of the events or words that transpired. Can we work on that together?

Sorry but I don't see any examples of dishonesty.

Your example 'I was disorganised yesterday, can you help me today' doesn't take into account that she might not get disorganised until AFTER she has made the request. She might truthfully intend to get ready but get disorganised/distracted and do something else after you leave.

And no, a DJ about the ipod isn't dishonesty in any form.

Assumptions and dishonesty are two entirely separate things.

I think you're trapped by constantly turning to the explanation of dishonesty.

You are using this DJ as an automatic jump off point instead of respectfully asking her what IS wrong.

Wrong diagnoses lead to wrong conclusions.

I don't see her DJs as being much worse than yours to be honest.

Thinking 'I had a better upbringing' and assuming you are more truthful than she is without any real evidence, is simply a good way to assure yourself that your way is the best way.

I don't see any mention of PoJA or of considering her perspective.

HL, I have been following along, both with your original incarnation of this subject and the current form and user name.

Why did you feel the need for dishonesty, if you will, by signing up as a new forum member? Are you worried about your wife reading here? Given that you are not trying to bust up an affair or come up with some other covert plans in the face of infidelity, I don't understand why you would hide what you are saying here from your wife - if you are willing to share with complete strangers, then I believe you should already have shared with your wife. Complete strangers should never be more clued in to the state of your marriage/state of your mind in your marriage than your wife.

FTR, I also see no examples of dishonesty. Blame it on my clearly "subjective" thinking, but you have not provided any "objectively" concrete examples of dishonesty. Thought patterns that are different from yours do not equal dishonesty.

You don't have to be an old hand on the MB forums to understand what dishonesty is. Little kids understand what dishonesty is.

It has nothing to do with 'subjective' or 'objective' or 'blaming others' or any of the other rather vague things you are mentioning.

Dishonesty is lying. Either by saying untruths or omitting to tell the truth.



I too would be rather interested to see a proper and concrete example of dishonesty. We can't help you solve this dishonesty when you haven't mentioned a single example yet.

By any chance was her childhood and the 'subconscious patterns' your therapist's opinion?

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5016_qa.html


Add this to your meeting of her needs and eliminating Love Busters, (HT)HL.

I wondered about this too. The MB way of looking at honesty is a little different from the conventional way as it is so core to MB concepts.

An example that came to me:

My XH was/is a hoarder. Eventually I got fed up with the boxes that would be dumped in the hall daily. We got to the point where there was literally nowhere left to put the stuff. Visitors would have to climb over the boxes to get into the house. He was paranoid that everything had to be kept. So I am ashamed to say that I started sneaking off and throwing his things away when he was out. One day I threw out 14 huge black garbage bags of ragged old shirts. It made me feel better but it contributed to the rot of our relationship.

The dishonesty was not that I threw his stuff away. The dishonesty was that I did not insist on POJA-ing the problem. Can you see the difference?

No therapist had nothing to do with that analysis. Ultimately this comes down to conflict and how quickly it escalates. I have been choosing to avoid complaining because her reaction to it is so severe. Again, I'm not here to build a case against my wife, I'm way past that level of maturity in terms of my understanding of the MB process. I most certainly once was trying to build a case in the past and you can see that in my many posts a couple years ago.

Here's a thought. Dr H says that when you complain that you should only complain about the top 3 things your spouse does that bother you. For me, there are only two issues, but they happen so frequently that to address each one of them every single time would create so much conflict that I don't think it would be productive. How about I pick one moment each day to complain? If successful then maybe I'll go to two down the road.

I feel like I'm in a battle of semantics with you IG. Dishonesty, untruths, twisting facts, distorting reality, assigning blame with no justification, they all revolve around the same thing and you can feel free to call it whatever you want. I prefer to call it what I believe it is, which is that my wife isn't honest with herself nor is she with me.

This is a pattern, it happens multiple times a day, and even if the source begins with her inability to be organized, it is in how she attempts to justify it where the dishonesty is rooted.

"Wrong diagnoses lead to wrong conclusions."

Bingo. In this case it is your diagnoses of the realities of my relationship with my wife that is led to the wrong conclusion. Whoever said dishonesty only involves lying or the omission of truth? I think you've pigeon holed me into needing to prove that my wife has told a bold-faced lie or has omitted truth in order for her to be guilty of doing dishonest things. It appears to be black and white and everything else related to it you prefer to call something else, ie disorganized, distracted, being assumptive, etc. In other words your compass and subjective lens has decided that mine is inaccurate based on your definition of dishonesty. Go research it, I think the subject is much broader than what you claim it to be.

I'm trying to extract the takeaway here from this quote. I don't know that my wife is a "get out of trouble liar." I mean, it is a version of that but not exactly the same thing. First of all there is no trouble because I usually don't say a thing in order to keep the peace, and second of all the manner in which she is dishonest is more about projecting everything to others or to conditions that really don't exist.

So, what you are saying, is that you want to continue with Plan (HT)HL and argue with, ignore, and cherry pick the Marriage Builders advice as it suits your taste. Which has been successful in your 2 years(?) or more on this forum. You want to continue on this path, and hope it will fix your wife.

OK.

Good luck with that. I wish you all the luck in the world.

I don't believe I'm arguing with you at all HHH. I asked you to clarify the takeaway of a quote that you provided.

I don't want to fix my wife, nor can I fix my wife, only she has control of her own actions.

Look I came here to seek help on how to speak and react to my wife when she is dishonest. Complaining respectfully hasn't gotten me anywhere, or at least not very far. Plan B might be where this thing goes, but for the time being I want to be as close to perfect as possible. I have an unwilling partner that I'd like to "win back" if that is a feasible goal.

Would you agree that it is problematic that my wife is dishonest if I'm trying to win her back? Dr H wrote an entire section about it so I know that you do.

When my wife says something that bothers me and I say, "When you said that I need to put together the shelves asap that made me feel bad, I would appreciate if you asked me rather than told me what I need to do" and she replies, "I didn't say that" or "You just took it the wrong way" where do I go from there?

So no concrete examples then?

I suppose you know what you mean yourself.


Good luck.

OK an example!

Again, this is not dishonesty.

Its not PoJA, because she isn't listening to you. Its bad of course. Not listening to our spouses is lazy, but she can be motivated to listen to you.

The way to do that is do as we advised. Instead of a complaint about how you feel bad, cheerfully request something you would love. Keep it short and sweet and respect her right to say no.

Debating and needing to prove or convince you of my wife's actions are pointless. She love busts me multiple times per day and the main two things regardless of whatever concrete example makes YOU feel that it is in fact real are:

1. "I didn't say that" even thought she did.
2. "You just took it the wrong way."

The first is a blatant lie, is it not?

The second isn't a lie but rather a demand by telling me how to think and feel.

You've made up your mind that I have no credibility so go post elsewhere since I don't want to play by your rules. There are plenty of fantastic people on this forum that will take my simple request for what is without demanding that I must prove myself to be worthy of their help.

No, no no... we are demanding; what EXACTLY is going on - not just what she says/does, but what you say/do in response. We are demanding that you don't argue semantics and deflect.

You have been here long enough to know what the goal of this program is, and that posters are attempting to help you improve your marriage.

When you fight, deflect, and argue you lengthen that process - a process being carried out by people voluntarily and with no cost to you other than an open ear.

Your two examples would be disrespectful judgments. However, what your job is is to table the complaint. It is then up to her to correct her course. Do not dignify or address her response to your complaint, just state it.

I would love it if you would ask me to do things, rather than tell me.

Done, regardless of her response.


The funny thing is, this pattern reminds me of a post that someone shared on another thread about a spouse starting out feeling like a constant failure do to complaints being brought up - but as the complaints are addressed, that feeling will fade.

That is a shame. Indie is probably the best person you could have helping you. Not only is she good at seeing the real problem but she is incredibly good at explaining things.

Patience is good.

(HT)HL,

I think another issue that is going on, is that you are coming for support when you hit a high-voltage crisis point, and when things smooth out for a minute, you disappear.

You need to stick to it, keep active, and really clean up your side of the street.

If you were to pony up for coaching, that's what the coach would do; have you clean up YOUR side of the street.

You know you are going to take knocks, that's not new, dude.

But, we need to sharpen your game to a fine razor's edge.

Here is something that happened today. We were getting ready to take the kids out to some lunch and to shop a bit. Everybody was loaded up in the car and the 2 year old was kinda of being a pain which both was stressful for my wife and I. She is our most difficult by far of the three. In fact our big problems started after child #3. My wife came out and said something along the lines of "She is lucky she is in her car seat considering what she just did." It turns out she had found a little corner of wallpaper in the bathroom and ripped it off the wall for about two feet. When things break around the house my wife gets fired up. I mean it really gets her temper boiling. I didn't say anything other than agree with her that it is amazing how destructive this child can be. 3-4 minutes later my wife proclaimed to me, "You need to watch her at all times, otherwise stuff like this happens. You just can't let this happen again." This is a standard comment that is similar to so many others that they are too numerous to count. It bothered me tremendously. I felt like she was assigning blame because I wasn't following the child around the house at all times, which she doesn't do herself, so I guess I felt that she was hypocritical. I felt that she was assigning blame when blame wasn't due. I'm more of the opinion that this is just what two year old's do sometimes, particular this one. I didn't like being told what I need to do by my wife especially since she won't practice what she preaches. How did I handle it? I said, "Honey, I really prefer that next time our DD does something like this that you don't tell me what to do, but rather ask if this is something I could do." She was remarkably calm this time, escalating to maybe a 6/10 this time. She immediately got defensive and the tension was heavy. She said, "Well I can't take it anymore, she wrecks stuff all the time and I'm about to lose my mind." She says this all the time too. I don't like being around that environment. I kind of went silent a bit because I really don't care for conflict like that. I made myself start signing to a song on the radio because silence can be considered a LB on my part and eventually it blew over and we had a good time.

I guess my difficulty is that this pattern never changes any behaviors on her part. I've always felt that she doesn't really see the big deal with frequent conflict. It seems to me, from my perspective, that this kind of thing doesn't mean anything at all. She moves on from it like nothing ever happened, whereas I am very effected by it.

That's it. They all play out the same which is why I never got specific because I no longer have to guess what is gonna happen anymore. It is also worth mentioning that my wife has said many things to me about how she respects those that will challenge her. She hates when people won't speak their mind at all times. I would describe it as "machisima" for lack of a better word. I think macho perspectives are totally lame personally, but that is just my perspective. My wife has issues with my mother and both sisters because they don't "speak their mind at all times." From their perspective my wife acts like a ****** so they would rather take the high road than deal with it because it is pointless.

I hope that is a more detailed description of what you are looking for from me. I do want to become a fine tuned razor because I still believe our marriage can be great. My description of my wife and her background might be a bit brutal and even Freudian, but I still think it is spot on which is why I shared it with you all.

Really quickly, things are better than ever. I invited a friend who is going through a tough time to MB and decided to begin posting once again. Better than ever is great but nowhere near where it needs to be.

Oh I have no doubt of that, your examples show she is lovebusting you.

You are in the state of conflict with your spouse absolutely, but it is not as hopeless and cheerless as you fear.

She doesn't have a chronic problem with dishonesty. Of that I am quite certain. If she did you would have so many examples to tell us.

She is ignoring your point of view, and refusing to work with you. Quite a commmon and highly solvable marital problem.

I DO understand it is highly distressing and her stubbornness in not seeing your side feels like a refusal to see the truth.


It will take patience and cheerfulness to guide her out of this, but you can do it.

If you can avoid getting bogged down in analysing her childhood and the inner workings of her mind you will stay more cheerful while you work on the task in hand.

Sure thing, you know where I am if you change your mind.

"However, what your job is is to table the complaint. It is then up to her to correct her course. Do not dignify or address her response to your complaint, just state it."

That is all I need to know. I feel that her standard response of "I didn't say that" or "You just took it the wrong way" meant that I needed to clarify it or be more adamant. There were many times that I'd reply, "I'd appreciate if you didn't tell me how to take things" to which she'd blow up. One complaint fine, two just escalates. My instincts want me to desperately set the record straight about what transpired.

As far as dishonesty goes, what would you classify her standard responses as?

"I didn't say that", even though she did is a _______________.
"You just took it the wrong way" is a ____________, I believe DJ.

What do you think dishonesty is? IndieGirl seems to think it just "seems" dishonest. Just so I don't muck it up with my own feelings on the subject what are yours?

This is the right advice!

(And don't diagnose your wife as being "narcissistic.")

No, you haven't. You are still disrespectful of her -- diagnosing her is extraordinary disrespectful, and you do it all over the place.

You've still got quite a ways to go on the DJs. That is why you are not seeing much change in her.

Here's your question.
Radio Clip of HonestyLovebust's question

Thanks I listened to it to. Dr H recommended that I separate from my wife. I think the difficulty that I'm having is that when I try to meet needs and eliminate all DJ's and SD's is that I am not able to sustain it for a long enough period of time because I turn into a Giver. I get fed up and then begin firing back and reacting to her. Vicious cycle.

In terms of her current state. She went to a doctor because of all kinds of physical issues, upset tummy, panic attacks, low libido, elevated temperature. She thought he'd look into her hormones. He looked at her and grabbed both of her hands and said, "Why are you so stressed?" All of it is stress and anxiety. The more stressed she is, the worse she treats me, but when she is not stressed she is very fun to be with and treats me well. The roller coaster effect is exhausting. I never really recognized it before, but the more the kids or the house or anything else stresses her out she starts going after me. It is almost instantaneous.

I can't make her deal with her stress, that is up to her, but what I can do is really try and make sure I'm highly aware of stressful situations and times so that I'm more prepared to deal with her DJ's and Demands. Secondly I need to figure out how to get her to commit to more UA time. As you all know she has been incredibly difficult to commit to this. I now know why, it is stressful to her. Going out during the week stresses her out so she just doesn't want to do it. She feels like things pile up around the house like laundry and she hates feeling rushed. Feeling rushed causes stress and she almost always comes after me.

After a full day of that environment and stress she is exhausted and doesn't have any energy left to do anything other than sit on couch watching reality TV and play Candy Crush on her phone.

So I don't know what to do at this point. I'm stressed, but not at that level, I'm stressed about having a lousy marriage that is far from romantic. Additionally it is a drag to be around someone like her when she is stressed. When she is not stressed, like last night at a wedding we went to we had a blast. Each time we have fun I get hopeful again only to be crushed again, like an hour ago when she came after me because she was stressed about going to a Cub Scout meeting.

Help create a low stress life for her, not tell her to deal with it on her own. If cub scouts is stressful, then remove it from your lives or negotiate the burden of responsibility so that you are both happy with going to cub scouts. Her biggest stress is her relationship with you and how you're not a partner or teammate with her. You focus so much on how flawed and imperfect she is that you can't see your own disrespect. All I've seen in your posting and radio question is a huge heap of negative, accusatory judgement. What human being would want to spend one minute of intimate time with that, much less 15 hours of it?

And to keep her protected from your Lovebusters has nothing to do with being a Giver or being too much of a Giver.

x2.



Exactly. There is no excuse for lovebusting. None.

We have had spouses on here deal with full blown affairs without exhibiting a single LB. If they can do that, you can avoid it.

Dr H's advice on 'being a giver' is very clear. Stop it. No one likes a martyr.

I can appreciate the assessment. I don't ever tell her to deal with her own stress, what I was trying to convey is that I can't make her relax, but I most certainly can try and relieve some of that stress in her life. I've taken on significantly more and more with the children, the house, etc. Let me spell out, in 100% honesty, the average day for me and then you can tell me what you think can be done differently.

6:20am wakeup. Either my wife is already at the gym, or lately is having a hard time getting up. I get up first and get all 3 children up why she puts makeup on or just wakes up to start her day. I take them downstairs and I immediately start to make them all breakfast. I cook all breakfasts in the house. I let them finish up and I clean breakfast dishes while packing a lunch for the big two kids and a small snack for the 3 year old.

7:00am kids head up to get ready for the day. This is a very stressful time for all. It mostly involves trying to get our 6 year old boy to listen and walk through his list of responsibilities to get ready for school. Currently I am downstairs usually unless things get a bit unruly where I come to back up mom and restore some order. I am working out of the house so I get a lot done during this time.

7:45am. Wife takes two big kids to school either by walking or driving while I stay with the little one and work.

8:45am. Wife and I take little one to her class and usually head to the gym together or at least at the same time. She takes spin classes whereas I kind of do my own thing.

10:30am. We go to pick up little one and go get a green tea together.

10:45am. Wife goes up to shower while I stay with little one and work.

11:30am. I go to shower because my sales calls occur between 12pm and 3pm. Wife stays with little one or heads out to run errands.

12pm-330pm. I go to the coffee shop down the street to work and make sales calls.

4pm. Daddy gets home where homework is taking place. My wife split homework assistance most days depending on who has what on their plate. If she has extra laundry to do she might head up and I'll do it, other days if I didn't finish my work then she'll do it.

5pm. Daddy starts dinner. I cook all dinners. I clean up dinner about 80% of the time because my wife is either tired, or because she goes upstairs to bath kids about 2 days a week.

6pm. Family time. We usually hang out and watch a movie and munch popcorn.

7:30 or 8pm. Bedtime. We usually split it up where one of us takes little one, this takes more time, and the big two for the other parent.

8pm. Mom and Dad are excited for this time because the kids are not in our face, but UA time really doesn't happen. I've given up asking to do things like play games because she just says she is too tired.

10:30pm. Bedtime for us. Very little SF, maybe every couple of weeks. It used to be her too tired, but as I've gotten older sometimes it is me too.

So that is my day. Weekends are about soccer games, football games, and track meets, which I'm very involved in as assistant coach, etc. We have a very active social life so we usually will get out one day a week for the two of us where we have a lot of fun every time. Then one other weekend day we usually are invited to go somewhere with other families in the area who have kids the same age. We have fun there too, but usually separately because my wife wants to talk with all her friends. The other dads and I chat about guy stuff.

I already feel and great sense of inequity in the relationship and taking more on to relieve her stress so far has been a strategy that hasn't allowed her to be less stressed. What is my threshold? I don't know, but I'm already pretty bitter as you can tell and I have been lovebusting off and on for a long time. You are correct there is no excuse and really no purpose to love bust. My love busting is almost exclusively a reaction to her treatment of me and it hasn't been working so I have to be diligent in not participating. I'm all ears.

Spend this time with your wife.

Made it from morning to 4pm. I withstood the constant demands, sarcasm, argumentative language, and reached a limit and added some sarcasm of my own. I've never met someone this argumentative and unreasonable in my life. Here is what it was about. Our daughter, who is 9, missed 2 questions on a homework test. My wife immediately demanded that "we" inspect every test even though we sat in a meeting together with the teacher and the teacher told us "it is important that you don't do the tests for you, your children will learn more through making mistakes than having you correct it." I was there, she was there, it happened. I proceeded to ask our DD how she felt about missing two problems, because this is her responsibility and she was careless which is why she missed two problems. I said to my wife, "Honey, we both sat there and the teacher told us about this very specifically because we had disagreed about it and we wanted to know." She said, "That is not what she said." I said, "Well then what did she say then?" this time with a little attitude of my own. She said, "Well it wasn't that and she's gonna get D's and we'll all be sorry!"

I honestly don't feel like I can do this. The positive moments are getting dwarfed by the negatives now and I just don't like her at all any more. You guys can fight with me all you want about how I'm judging her, but I know who I'm dealing with and I literally can't stand to be around her or to see her treat our children with such disrespect as well. If I choose to separate from my wife, how does it work? I move out and we don't communicate, or is that only when infidelity occurs. I don't think it is possible to have this woman cross any romantic threshold in my lifetime, and in looking back I don't think she was ever in love with me. She can't get close enough to people to be in love, she just keeps walls up and honestly I don't feel like I really even know who she is. Good grief give me some tylenol.

I'm gonna go read plan B now. Her father is miserable with her mother and he moved out at one point as well and that got her attention, at least for awhile. Ewwww, makes my skin crawl.

You are very disrespectful of your wife. Are you willing to eliminate your own disrespectful judgements?

Willing but not able. I'm not able, emotionally to respond respectfully to someone who treats me like this at this level. I literally cannot take it any longer.

I'm sorry, why would you plan B her? There's disrespect going in both directions. If your side of the street was clean, this plan might make sense, but it's not. Not even close. Do want to get her "attention" or do you want a good marriage?

I hear what you say...you don't even like her. I doubt she likes you. You have a textbook MB case. Eliminate LB COMPLETELY and FOREVER (not just for eight hours) and meet each other's emotional needs. Your accounts are deep in the red so it will take quite a bit of time. Your disdain for each other is a vicious cycle with no winners, certainly not your children. Someone needs to break the cycle. Why don't you do it? It's not easy...one SD or DJ and you're right back where you started.

Can you do this?

Dr. Harley's advice for a man who feels like that is antidepressants - you are feeling like the situation is hopeless, feeling like there are no solutions - that's the very definition of depression. That is what depression does: it makes it impossible for you to see solutions to your problems. Antidepressant medication helps to even out your emotional highs and lows to enable you to think rationally about what to do about your problem, because your emotions will sabotage you.

Dr. Harley cautions people to pick his Plan A or Plan B and to avoid what he calls "Plan C," which is not having a plan at all. Either show your wife the BEST of you so you can chip away at this problem by making the most love bank deposits possible (Plan A) (and use antidepressants to help with that!), or separate to protect both of you from further love bank withdrawals. What you are doing now is not working.

Now, you are saying a lot about how you "reached a limit" and are just "not able" to remain respectful, etc., and I am here to tell you that this is not factually true. It is a lie you tell yourself. As an abusive husband, I had to learn to quit telling myself this lie in order to learn how to stop the abuse: my demands, disrespect, and angry outbursts. I had to learn that it was always my choice whether to become angry, disrespectful, or demanding, or not. I had to learn that it was possible to abstain from these three behaviors NO MATTER WHAT MY WIFE DID TO ME. Even if she broke every Marriage Builders rule in the book, even if she was demanding, disrespectful, and angry towards me (she was), even if she had an affair (she did), I learned that it was possible at all times to not abuse her in response.

And wives of abusive (and formerly abusive) husbands are very testing. Dr. Harley has said that even when working with these women, knowing that they are risking all of their marital recovery and sometimes even risking their husbands going to jail or worse, he has a very, very hard time convincing them to not do things that are very testing to their husbands. But he has a LOT of success teaching the husbands to never be demanding, disrespectful, or angry no matter what the wife does. This is the only way marital recovery is possible for these situations. And it works!

If you persist in telling yourself that you can't do it, you really do need to see your doctor about prescribing antidepressants. My doctor prescribed lexapro. Dr. Harley often recommends wellbutrin. I felt I was going to break just going to my doctor and asking, but I'm so glad I did! I was only on them for about three months, and in that time we turned everything around and our marriage is great!

It would be better to separate from your wife than to "reach a limit" and be demanding, disrespectful, or angry toward her.

But it would be even better to learn how to not be demanding, disrespectful, or angry no matter what. This is something Dr. Harley has taught husbands how to do, and you can do it, too. This is the only chance your marriage has. If you do not get on board with eliminating these three behaviors NO MATTER WHAT, she certainly never will.

Fighting is a death knell to marriage. It is like nuclear war. Nobody wins.

This article describes the procedure that you need to follow to learn to eliminate your demands, disrespect, and anger:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8122_neg.html

Don't expect to find happiness after divorce without learning to eliminate these behaviors. It won't work and it will be even harder. You and your wife at least have your daughter in common to motivate you toward a common goal. First marriages are a lot easier to make work than later relationships. But they never work if somebody holds on to a "limit" after which they justify demands, disrespect, and anger.

BTW, I empathize with your wife being very upset at you if you presented the teacher's opinion as "right" and your wife's opinion as "wrong." The teacher is just a human being just like anybody else and is not really any kind of authority - you and your wife can probably make far better decisions about your daughter's education than the teacher can if you will take off the table all ideas that you are not both enthusiastic about.

There are lots of parenting and educational fads that have been in and out through the years. Having two parents brainstorm about possible ways to solve problems and work together to find a solution they are both enthusiastic about is the BEST possible way to correct for this!

Thanks all for the advice. I moved out to my parents. We had a discussion afterwards and decided to take a break and attempt to go see a therapist together, not solo. I believe in MB, I really do, but that doesn't mean it works in all situations at least at this moment in time. If you anyone can help me find a therapist that knows MB in my area, please send me a PM. I'm not able to follow the plan to a tee so I need help if I want to save this. Thanks guys. What a sad day.

Nope at this moment I literally cannot do it. She is beyond unreasonable, in fact if she was cheating I would not be surprised. Most unreasonable person I've ever met.

Sure I'll consider this. I'll take all the help I can get!

That was my conclusion at this time.

I'm sorry to hear that you aren't able to reign in your own Lovebusters. The idea isn't to sit there and take hers without a peep, but to be a good role model and bringing up "it bothers me when you speak to me like that" as a way to address her Lovebusters. Sarcasm is a bad idea no matter how long you feel you've been putting up with abuse. All we're saying is that there's no excuse for you behaving with Lovebusters in response because there are more successful (and dignified) ways of handling these situations.

As you sit there over at your parents, you could still do yourself good by reading Lovebusters and practice not making them. It's not her fault that you use sarcasm or any other LB, it's your own. You can still work on that. You are probably going to have to interact with her in the near future, so don't engage in Lovebusters with her in the present and future. For goodness' sake, don't be "pretend honest" by telling her she's unreasonable or any other disrespectful judgement like that.

Well, now that's done...What are your expectations before moving back in and working on your M? How do you intend to fill your role as husband and father while you are separated?

Markos is right, though. Dr. Harley specifically challanges men to completely eliminate any and all LB regardless of the LB our W's direct at us. IMO, It's likely their conditioned response to the way we have treated them over the years, and then we have the nerve to say WE'VE had enough? I'll admit, your W seems a little more challanging than my W, but I eventually gave up all AO and DJ. It wasn't easy but 300mg a day of Wellbutrin made all the difference. It changed the "can't" into "maybe". My personal work ethic turned the "maybe" into "can".

Contacting Steve. I don't believe any amount of MB will encourage my wife to change. She lives in an alternate universe, and that is me being objective about it entirely. I'll see what Steve has to say about all of this. My wife's not healthy and it is accelerating and the environment is horrific. I'll keep you posted.

DJ

DJ

DJ

The problem is not entirely your wife's. You've been here for over 2 years, and I see little improvement on your part.

This is the option I've chosen, but Steve might have a different view point.

My issue was that she entirely rejected what actually occurred. I have no problem finding a win/win for both of us, but it never gets that far because we spend time discussing whether or not something actually happen. It is so knee jerk I can't even describe it. When I'm respectful in my language, and she knows MB, I think it takes her back to a place that she hated being in. She hates MB. She does this with everything which is why I find it so hard to eliminate my lovebusters.

You're right Prisca, it is not entirely her fault, and I never said it was. I did improve for a long time, I'd go an entire month without a DJ but it never got me anywhere. I can't imagine being able to sustain it with this woman for any period of time without help from a third party.

appt is booked for tomorrow with Steve.

Don't spend time with her arguing about what actually occurred. Allow her to have her own opinion as to what actually occurred, even if it differs from yours. There is no need whatsoever to straighten her out about this.

My wife and I have different memories about events ALL THE TIME. We don't try to straighten each other out about it. We don't approach it as if one of us is right and the other one is wrong.

It is possible to learn to not love bust no matter what your wife does. It's essentially a required skill for having a good marriage.

In addition to not lovebusting, you need to add to that respectfully complaining - keeping the things that are problems to you on the front burner - and also not responding to her love busters with love busters.

For example - when she becomes difficult or abusive, don't start talking to her or anybody else about how she's just different and just a person who can't be reached or whatever. (The way you are talking now.)

Eliminate the disrespectful "escape hatch" that you use to cope with the emotions she causes in you when she is abusive.

Read and actually do the things in that "how to negotiate when you are an emotional person" article. BUY the type of meter that Dr. Harley describes, and learn to use it.

That is good news.

You can do this, HL. I know you are sitting here saying you can't, and you can't because your wife is so difficult, but I am here to tell you that you can.

I would suggest rereading your threads and emails and taking note of the good resources that you have used in the past. Use them continuously. For example, good radio shows - relisten to them.

Here's a Marriage Builders piece you are not using:

Complain about your spouse to your spouse

Since you have lots of problems in the marriage, you need to be honest to your wife about these, and you need to keep the problems on the front burner. That means keep bringing them up.

We are not teaching you to suffer in silence. That is not Marriage Builders. This is not about enduring continued abuse and neglect hoping things get better.

The goal is that either one of you should feel free to talk about a problem in the marriage, so long as you do it in a way your spouse finds respectful, non-demanding, and not angry.

I know you will worry that your wife doesn't find ANY complaints you make to be respectful. But if she does say you are disrespectful, just withdraw the complaint (drop the subject) and come here or to Steve Harley or to Dr. Harley and get some help learning how to make your complaint respectfully.

Have you scheduled an appointment with your M.D. for antidepressants?

Marriage Builders specifies the following:

Demands, disrespectful judgments, and angry outbursts should not be tolerated in marriage.

When your spouse is abusive or neglectful, you do not have to respond with abuse (demands, disrespectful judgments, and angry outbursts) yourself.

The first step in overcoming angry outbursts (and those other two love busters) is to acknowledge that your spouse does not cause them. If you will not take this step, you are not safe for your wife.

HL, as long as you are posting that your wife's behavior causes, explains, or justifies your disrespect, demands, and/or angry outbursts, you are not even using Marriage Builders - you are denying its fundamental tenets. So it's not that Marriage Builders won't work for your wife - it's that you are fatally compromising the program. Steve Harley explained to me that it's like having an operating system bug - you have to fix this before any programs will work on that hardware.

All of us on your thread can see numerous instances in the past 24 hours where you have used language indicating you believe your wife is the cause of your disrespect. Phrases like "reached a limit" are an example.

We can't help your marriage if you believe that your wife can make you angry or make you disrespectful or make you demanding. Steve Harley and Dr. Harley can't help, either. If you compromise this, nothing will work.

It might just be the way you have written this but this account makes no sense to me, and I have some sympathy with your wife's viewpoint.

My child often does poor homework or no homework, and has in fact failed major exams for this reason. We are now having to pay a huge amount of money from our savings to get him to pass the exams that he should have. If I had known when he was about three years younger that we would be in this position because of his laziness I would have sat with him constantly until the work was done. In fact, I'm doing that now, and it is paying off well.

Your wife appears to have said that ""we" inspect every test", which I take to meant that she wants know about every forthcoming test or homework set, she wants to know what the questions or topics are and she wants to check that they have been done, before the test is failed for non-completion. That seems eminently sensible to me and is what good, involved parents do all the time. What is wrong with her saying that she does not want to find out after the fact that the test was failed, when she could ensure that it is at least completed properly on time?

Perhaps she issued this as a demand, which she shouldn't have done, but the course of action in itself was not a poor proposal. I found out after the fact from my son's teacher that some parts of his exams had been failed, from non-completion, to such a degree that even if he got A* on the remaining papers he could not pass the exams overall. These were critical, school-leaving exams and I was furious with her, him and myself for not being top of this.

So, if your child's teacher has said you must not do the tests yourselves, that is fine. If you do the work at home for your child, clearly he or she is not passing that work; you are. But if by that statement you understood the teacher to be saying "don't help", then I can see why your wife said that this isn't what she said, and if it IS what she said then I sympathise with your wife for saying "well, I'm not letting my child fail out of laziness, no matter what a teacher tells me. I'm going to intervene."

If she was demanding and disrespectful to you when she communicated this then she was wrong, but you were wrong if you dismissed her point of view in favour of what you thought was the teacher's view. I think this mutual disrespect is what is missing when you analyse your interactions with your wife. I think you've got to the point where you see everything she says and does as the ravings of an unreasonable, miserable nut-job and you refuse to countenance her point of view with any respect. That is not helping you well, as I hope you can see from the perspective of your parents' spare bedroom.

My wife agreed to therapy. I'm hoping that the follow through is there, because in the past it has not been. I'll see what Steve has to say tomorrow and see if he can recommend anyone in my area.

You've cited my name, but I can't tell whether this is intended to be a response to my post.

What kind of therapy has your wife agreed to? For what problem?

That is exactly my issue, we planned to ask the question, the teacher advised us not to do her homework for her because that wouldn't allow her to learn and agreed upon it. We help her when need be on homework but the rest is up to her and is her responsibility. Upon seeing to problems were missed she decided to throw out our decision, unilaterally, and alter what the teacher had told us and what we agreed upon.

Sorry this was meant to be a general response. Marriage therapy together. We agreed that we need a third party to intervene. I'm hoping to get a recommendation from Steve in my area. There is a history, my wife did MB, hated it, so although I don't mind if he will try, I don't think she'll field a call from Steve.

When my wife does something unilaterally that I was not enthusiastic about, I first make sure I am completely calm, and then I complain to her about it, as described above in the link I posted ("Complain about your spouse to your spouse.") In the past she was not very motivated to respond to my complaints, but that has changed tremendously. If she does not respond to my complaint immediately, I focus on continuing to stay calm and not responding in any way that she would find demanding, disrespectful, or angry. So far we have yet to hit an issue that we can't eventually solve in a way that makes us both happy, as long as I avoid the demands, disrespect, and angry outbursts, which I do primarily by staying calm and relaxed.

It works! It does require patience. Sometimes it means I must complain more than once - if the problem is not resolved, it has to stay on the front burner. That means bringing it up every day or so, or every week or so. Respectfully each time, without any judgmental implications that the problem should've already been solved right now, or should never have happened because she should've asked me first, or whatever.

What does your wife dislike about Marriage Builders?

My answer is a DJ so I'd rather not answer at all. She is opposed to it and has made it clear.

If your wife is no longer enthusiastic about an agreement, then you need a new plan.

It sounds to me like you don't understand the problem from her perspective. You would gain a lot from the exercise of learning to word, respectfully, her complaint about Marriage Builders. You might even learn what it would take to get her on board with it.

Does she feel that Marriage Builders was used to abuse her?

This still makes no sense to me. I don't think I understood what you wrote in the original post and I don't think you understood what I wrote.

If you agreed with each other and the teacher not to do her homework for her, then when she said that you need to check the tests and make sure they are done, that is NOT doing her homework for her.

You didn't agree not to have anything to do with homework whatsoever, did you?

How did your wife "throw out your decision"? What decision? Please be specific.

HER answer is not a DJ. Could you please try and describe the problem as she describes it?

I'm sorry if I'm new here and breech etiquette, but is Lonely4years your DW? Seems like someone presenting the exact opposite of your story. If it's not, her thread may be a good read to possibly see the "other side". She's going to be on the radio show Friday, so it may be a good listen as well.

MindMonkey, no, I'm not his DW.

I didn't read this entire thread but am going to when I get a chance this week!

I'd love it if my H would start his own thread. Maybe someday...

Ok I just read a few snippets of the start of this thread, am running out the door. But HLB, you do sound quite a bit like my H!

Question for you: are you a controller? It seems like perhaps you are a controlling person.

The first post, about you being asked to take kids to school so she could get ready, and then being upset about how fast she got ready, and in what manner....wow, that sounds EXACTLY like what my H would do.

He is very controlling, and basically has a very stringent set of standards...exacting standards. Through the years this has led me to drag my heels, even sometimes subconsciouly, and not do what he wants. I HATE it. I hate being controlled, or feeling like I'm just a puppet in his life, basically he demands I do things his way.

Anyway, just a question for you to think about.

I also think today's radio show talks about this a bit. My husband is a little OCD about things...always complaining about our warm, wonderful house, complaining about me folding laundry late at night and toys around (because he expects me to be a robot who is perfect and gets stuff done while he is at work). He has very exacting standards...Dr. H talked about this a little on the show today, and I found it interesting.

I'm off and will be back later.

Exactly the opposite actually. My ongoing issue with my wife is that there is a massive inequity in our relationship, and I'm having a hard time letting it go. Please read earlier parts of this thread where I explain my average day.

To her it is a time where I accused her of cheating on me, even though she wasn't. She also didn't like the format of asking for things respectfully, or having to meet my needs. She didn't outright reject them, but over time after it was proven "not to work" she made up her mind that it was a bad program and that the forums were particularly toxic.

Specifically she had an issue that she missed two problems at all. She wanted her to have a perfect score and so she asked me to make sure that nothing was wrong prior to turning it in which is not what we agreed to, that is me, my wife, and the teacher.

Truth is, whether it is a show or not, my wife acts indifferent about separation or divorce whereas I am fearful of it and she knows this.

It seems that you all agreed that you (parents) would not do her homework for her.

I don't see that what your wife asked you to do - to check it before it was turned in - was going back on your agreement not to do her homework for her. Checking it is NOT doing it for her.

Your wife did not ask you to do your daughter's homework for her, as far as I can tell.

The way I read it, the issue was not that either parent was doing the child's homework...there was an agreement to not change DD'sanswers if they were wrong. Seems like there is confusion of what is being considered as "checked." Parents will check that the homework is done but if the answers are wrong, they agreed to leave it and let DD get graded based on her answers the first time around.

My two cents

My point is that my wife wanted to have me ensure that all homework was being turned in at 100% and that is not what we agreed upon. You are exactly correct BR.

If your wife is no longer enthusiastic about the agreement you made, you need a new plan and a new agreement.

Right, I'm ok with that and agree, but SugarCane kept grilling me so I kept answering. I'm over that, let's move on. This hit home:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5055_qa.html

This line in particular, "Who are the ones most likely to make that unrealistic offer? Men. In most cases, they do the asking, and they don't offer an interdependent deal. They offer unconditional love -- a BIG mistake! And predictably, they get blamed the most for being controlling."

I don't control the money, I just make the money, but I think my wife feels trapped without a way to make her own way. I grew up believing in unconditional love and providing unconditional love for my wife comes naturally for me. She may not see it that way at all. She might feel entirely dependent on me for everything, and the more I give, the more dependent she must feel. I certainly don't link love-making to allowance, she has no allowance, she spends what she needs and we are lucky to be in that position. But even if it was unintentional I think we have a problem in this that she may not even understand, and frankly neither did I until reading this article.

Hi HLB, I'm back.

I read your whole thread, and there were a couple of times that I thought to myself "oh my gosh, maybe this IS my husband!" If it weren't for a few key points, I'd really be wondering too. As long as you aren't lying about the teacher thing and your kids genders...

You really sound a lot like my husband. Our stories have a lot in common: we have 3 kids also, age 2, 6, and 9. And our youngest has been insanely difficult also.

And I've reacted like your wife in the past. Mostly because I'm pretty disgusted with who he is as a person, and it comes through. And you seem to act a lot like my husband!

I think maybe we can help each other. Because I would be willing to bet, by the familiar way your wife is acting, that I could help you understand why she reacts how she does.

I don't know, your story just seems SO similar to mine...my husband meets very few of my needs (aside from FS and FC) and he just continues to do more around the house while ignoring ME. And I react badly and am not in love with him.

So first thing, your wife is just not in love with you. I bet you've not filled her Love bank and put her over the threshold in a long time...and I bet that is why she blames you for everything. She sounds depressed (I have certainly been depressed...sometimes more than others...at the state of my marriage and absolute torment my H puts me through). I know for sure my H doesn't realize what he does that takes ALL the wind out of my sails. And I bet you don't realize either.

Anyway...I think maybe we should try to help each other. I can maybe help you understand how your wife feels, since I feel like the story is similar. Even down to my husband's sisters, who don't talk, and almost cannot carry on a normal conversation, and my bad relationship with my mother. And maybe you can help me understand my husband's pov.

Also, just wanted to touch on the issue of you making the money...I would bet you that it's an issue for her. Let me ask you a question: have you EVER during an AO, or otherwise, held the money over her head. As in, if you leave, you will have no money and no job? Have you ever told her "go ahead and try to find another job that will keep you in this standard of living' or anything of that nature? Do you rag on her about how she keeps house and her weight and how much she does around the house? Do you "reward" her with your pleasant demeanor when she visibly works hard around the house/for you? Do you punish her with criticisms when she's had a hard day with the kids? I know for myself, I'm in the same exact boat as your wife, staying home while he makes all the money. And my H has done nothing but drag me down since the day our first baby came. House not clean enough, dinner not ready on time, laundry being done at night, you name it, he's been disrespectful about it. He's called me "lazy" when I had a colicky infant and napped during the day, he's told me that "nobody else's house" looks like ours (not true...we live in a lovely home...but toys are around because we have children who live here), and he's also joked that I'm a hoarder, which trust me is not even close to the truth. I'm kind of a neatnick...especially compared to other suburban moms. His reality is that his mother was controlled by his father, and literally NOTHING was ever out of place when he was growing up. But it wasn't a happy home whatsoever. It was just a model home. Anyway, I can tell you that all of the negatives I got about the "job" I'm doing, has made me less inclined to do anything. In fact I've had periods where I just don't freaking do ANYthing. And yes, I sleep in and let him deal with getting the kids ready for school/all of it.

I've never told him how to do his job but he insists that I'm not doing mine well enough. He tries to control me in that way, and I hate it.

So that part about your wife rang true to me. It doesn't make that much sense that a wife would just be a lazy bum who doens't want to do much of all. More than likely, I wonder if she is just totally unmotivated to do anything to please you, because you have criticized and nitpicked her. Obviously I could be totally off base here, so correct me if I'm wrong. If not, then maybe your wife's perspective is something like mine.

By the way I just want to say that since finding MB, I've stopped acting like your wife. But, for many, many years, that was how I acted. I was not fun to be around, I was surly, I was very upset at my husband, and was not very nice to him most of the time. I blamed him for things I shouldn't have blamed him for, but most of it was because I just didn't feel the love. Nothing he did, no amount of helping with cooking or laundry or whatever made me fall in love with him, because that wasn't what I needed. He wanted "appreciation" but since he wasn't meeting my ENs (and instead was basically doing my job, while criticizing my performance as a wife/mom, he was actually love busting me when he did all that. Does that make sense?) So you picking up more slack around the house probably isn't going to make a lick of a difference to your wife. It wouldn't to me. I don't need my husband to take more home duties off my plate, I need him to meet my ENs.

It wasn't until I got here that I finally realized that though.

Thanks for your lengthy note and yes it resonates a lot. I don't think my wife is lazy at all, in fact she is the opposite and I don't have many requirements in terms of how clean the house is or anything like that. I'm pretty laid back about it. My wife works very hard, but isn't very organized about things and often times doesn't remember where she places things, forgets things, and I admit I have expressed my disapproval on numerous occasions. When this happens and she gets stressed out I come to the rescue most often, and in some instances just begin taking over one more thing. So now we are in a place where I continue to take over things and I really have to be honest with myself as to whether it was to help her, or because of me being intolerant of the way it was done. Probably some of both, but it hasn't gotten me anywhere.

I own my own company and am probably the most efficient person I know so we are not a good "fit" in that regard. Is it possible though, that my wife feels a significant amount of depression, even when I don't do or say anything? Is she so dependent on me that she has in essence lost her identity? Is this why she is so argumentative about things even when there is nothing to argue about? Is this why she pushes me away from working out together at the gym because she still has the ability to identify as someone who likes to workout? Same things with running. She never wanted me to take up the sport of running, and now I know why. She needs/wants her own identity and the more I give, give, give, the less I receive from the relationship.

So what does she want? When we first got the MB workbooks we filled out our worksheets, but I don't think it was a true assessment of what we needed from each other. What I can identify are the following things that continue to surface and then we can organize them into the EN's outlined in MB.

1. She needs me to listen. I mean she has a very low tolerance for not listening and/or forgetting something. If I'm not careful in reading a text about what to pick up and get the wrong thing or forget what she asked for it is a big, big deal to her. Her mother never listens to her by the way so I get it. I've tried to adjust in the past by making more notes, but on occasion I mess up and she certainly lets me know about it.
2. She needs admiration. I worship this woman in terms of praising how she looks, how cute a top that she wears, etc. I go out of my way never to criticize her ever about anything, and frankly don't even have the urge to. I praise her for being a good Mom, but then I probably wreck by criticizing how she disciplines the kids. We have an ongoing debate on the difference between false promises of discipline and follow through verses meaning what you say and saying what you mean. I'm the latter and my wife is the former and the kids respond and react differently to each of us. Nevertheless she needs this from me, even though she has a negative comment to say each time I do compliment her. I could stand to be more genuine when I do praise her, and maybe I have not been.
3. She wants me to be thoughtful. Huge improvement over the first 5 years of marriage where I was the opposite of thoughtful. The little things go along way with her. At times I've been incredibly thoughtful but she always nitpicks something and I get frustrated and tend to give up on this. Nothing is ever good enough and it is almost a knee jerk mandatory DJ each time I even attempt it. It has gotten better though. I can pick out clothes for her and about 80% of them "work" which is pretty good for a guy.
4. She needs "stuff". This is a tough one and I say this not to be a martyr, it is just how I'm wired. I have very little need for material things. I'm like my mom. I'd rather spend $100 on dinner with my wife than anything $100 could buy for the house or on clothes. My wife places a great deal of importance on things whereas I value experiences and I have not done a good job of hiding my disapproval of the practice. I don't hold money over her head but I certainly remind my wife on occasion that we are buying more than we can afford and this makes her feel bad. In fact I don't know anyway to say it without making her feel bad.

I don't think we are the same Lonely. Similar but not the same. I am not like your husband in many aspects. Do I have problems with DJs and Demands, yes I do. Do I meet all of my wife's needs, likely not. All in all I'm a wonderful Father, and from the outside, the guy that gets the "you are so lucky to have him as your husband" guy. This is to everybody but my wife, yet the others don't matter, only she does and I want more than anything to have a romantic relationship with this woman, but I feel like she won't let me in. She keeps the walls up. When I hug her she drops her arms to the side or pushes me away.

What I won't do is allow her to have this power over me that about being afraid of divorce. She uses it against me and acts like she really doesn't care, but I know it is an act. Truth is she is terrified of divorce because she is so dependent on me. I won't live in fear of divorce any longer. Change must happen because I won't live this way for the next 30 years. She knows this now and immediately changed her attitude about therapy.

I have to turn internally to fix my side of the fence, this I know and I need some help to do that because I've become so defensive and bitter that I can't remain objective about what the task at hand is. On a side note, my wife still thinks I don't trust her. At the wedding the other night I didn't see her so I went around the corner and said, "Oh there you are." It wasn't about trust, I just wanted to hang out with my wife because we were having such a good time. She sent me a text last night that she has forgiven me, but not forgotten, about me accusing her of cheating 2 years ago, and thinks that me finding her at the wedding meant that I still don't trust her. She doesn't get over things very easily, that I know for sure, and I don't think she is over the first 5 years of our marriage yet.

Not sure where to go from here. I'm speaking with Steve in 5 hours so that is a good start.

Lot of truth here. I just can't help but think that my wife feels bad half the time because of the simple fact that I do so much. She knows about the inequities very well, we've discussed it many times. But she keeps asking and I keep giving and it doesn't seem to matter because she continues to say "I'm overwhelmed" multiple times per day. It is hard for me to see her perspective on this front. She asked to help with my company and the billing, in fact she has asked me numerous times and although I haven't said no, the truth is I don't want her to help. She took over the bills at one point in our marriage and it was a train wreck. So what does one do when a spouse is depressed, yet things still need to get done, and that she feels bad just for the simple fact that I make sure they get done. It is like she appreciates me but finds me disgusting all at the same time.

She asks me for things all day long, every day without any hesitation, I ask her for very little. This constant barrage has worn me down and I've grown tired of carrying the load. The last time she went to get a job it didn't go so well. She didn't get a lot of traction and ended up getting a low paying job that wasn't even worth it. This made her feel even worse about herself because I'm sure it felt like she wasn't wanted. So what does one do? Keep in mind even without me saying or doing anything I'm lovebusting her, just for being me. That is what it feels like on this end.

This was how my ex felt about MB too. I tried to implement it well, but I didn't fully eliminate the DJs in my head, the disgust I felt about him and the choices he was making. I put a lot of effort into UA, his top ENs RC, FC, and eliminating IB, and our marriage improved a lot but it was not enough and I filed for divorce. And it wasn't until he was out of the house for a year or so that I got rid of those DJs enough to approach him about reconciliation. He wasn't open to reconciling then. It's been 3 years since the divorce and only this last year or so can I really say the DJs are totally gone.

I hope two you can eliminate the disrespect on both sides and save your marriage. I hope living with your parents for now will help reduce the LB withdrawals. Have you talked to an attorney, though, we traditionally encourage men to stay in their homes so they don't lose their rights as a parent to the kids. And if your wife is dealing with anger issues that's a rough thing for your kids to be around without you to help stabilize things.

I once asked my wife if she resented me because most things come very easily to me, to which she never answered the question. Do some people resent others for doing well at things? I know this exists financially or physically, but can the person I married look at me in this way? Something that is new, that I never ever held over her head or her parents is that we started to help them financially. This was a joint decision by the way. There are no strings attached and never were, I just wanted them to be able to enjoy their retirement without stressing about money and I'm starting to think this might have pushed these feelings for my wife over the top. Her parents go out of their way to see if we need anything or if they can watch the kids much more so now than they did prior to assisting them. There is a pattern. Is it possible that my wife sees that my ability to provide for her means that she is some way obligated to meet my needs? I certainly never stated that, never held it over her head, but it may not matter, she still might see it as a certain level of servitude. Never thought of it before that way because for me it was an unconditional gift for family in their time of need. I'd like to know all of your thoughts on the subject.

We are more civil than that and no I haven't spoken to an attorney. This is not a long term thing, just a break for both of us to gain perspective. Most of all it is for my wife to take me seriously which she now does.

HL,

Do you and your wife do anything fun together? It seems like your schedules are work, kids, and chores. When was the last time you two went on a date? What is her idea of fun?

You mention that she appreciates the little things and is also into "stuff"...do you ever give her small, thoughtful gifts?...just because and not for any special occassion.

We go out about one day a week for a couple hours and have a good time. I do give her little things on occasion, but it never works out, she always makes it about me wanting something for it. In other words, she just doesn't see it as a genuine attempt to meet her needs. My wife is different than most. She does not require affection whatsoever, always been that way. Fun for my wife is dinner and shopping. When we go, as you can imagine, I don't look for things for me very often, and the fun is finding cute things for her to wear. I enjoy it, she enjoys it. I just don't have a need for "stuff" so I find it easier to focus on her. If we did this every night of our lives we'd probably be madly in love but also in debt. lol

How would the women in this forum react to a husband that got babysitters 3 days a week, made arrangements, made sure kids did homework the day before to reduce her stress, packed lunches the night before, laid out clothes for kids to change the night before, and took her to dinner and shopping or movies without asking her. She pushes back on UA time, but I think that is the stress talking and if I removed the things that cause the stress, maybe she'd feel more comfortable getting out with me?

Markos did many of those things for me.
Fact is, as long as your abusive lovebusters continue, none of this will have any impact on her lovebank.

Those things have zero effect on the lovebank!

No one loves the home help. If they did, we would have romantic feelings for our mothers and never leave home.

Besides which, these things help you and the running of your home just as much as they help her. So I don't see why they are seen as anything particularly special.

These helpful and organised things could HELP. Help set a background where needs were met and lovebusters eliminated.

But alone - nothing. Particularly not while lovebusters are in force. If your wife is in withdrawal you need six months at least love-bust free with some stellar needs meeting.

My wife would answer with a resounding "YES!". For the early part of our marriage, she was "in awe" of me. Everything seemed to "fall into my lap" when in reality I was working hard and taking chances that paid off. After a while that "awe" did turn into resentment. She was supposed to be an equal partner but all the good in our life seemed to be a direct result of my effort. I made sure she knew that, mostly in subtle ways. Also, I often told her that her contribution was just as important, but she knew it was lip service (I did too). Just a way for me to later say, "I give you credit, don't I?". She definitely didn�t feel like an equal. In hindsight it was almost patronizing to her. When you asked your W this, she may have taken it as a DJ, I know my W would (because IT IS). In other words, you asked her "are you mad because I'm awesome and you're not?" Think about it.

It is a DJ.

Assuming you know what other people think, or why they think it is a DJ.

The way to put is: "Is there anything I am doing you find annoying?" Then it is up to HER to say how and why she finds something irritating.

It is beyond disrespectful to come up with the reason beforehand.

ASK why. do not TELL why.

Yes. I can feel the arrogance over the www. I am sure your wife can hear loud and clear how awesome you think you are.

My xh has done well in his career. I was never jealous or resentful. I was proud of him and I enjoyed the benefits it brought our family. He however, began to look at me as the weak point of his life...thinking how he could have done better. It didn't build up love for him at all.

This is exactly what we've been talking about HLB. You need to learn how to speak to your wife respectfully and not say ANYTHING disrespectful like this for at least six months before the love will return.

Like all of us, you'd love to get your admiration need met, wouldn't you? Have your wife look up at you with glowing eyes and tell you she loves how she is treated?

Well, to do that you have to quit being disrespectful FIRST and keep it up FOREVER.

Not one more item, please.

Right now you are being disrespectful on a daily basis (and I don't care if she is too). While you are being disrespectful on a daily basis she CANNOT love anything you do. No one could.

This comment about how she resents your abilities offended ME and it wasn't about me!

No wonder she did not answer, she was probably trying to keep her temper.

Makes a lot of sense. I'm glad you were never jealous or resentful. I told her that one time that things come easy to me, never again. I don't even tell when I bring on new clients anymore, because she never reacts with joy, just sarcasm. I don't tell her anything about running anymore, because she reacts with sarcasm. Pretty much any success I have in my life has become a sore topic so I just don't even bother. Yes I have a need for admiration from my wife, and I get none, in fact always the opposite, but I won't suppose as to the reasons why, that is a DJ. My wife doesn't think that I trust her. She sent me a text. I do trust my wife, but the accusation from 2-3 years ago is not something she is over yet, at least according to her.

I never looked at it this way because I don't think that way. I take great joy in my wife's successes. When she finishes a race and places high I'm her biggest fan. When she does something creative with the kids I'm the first one to tell how awesome I think it is. I take great joy in anyone who succeeds or achieves. My wife has been a runner for a long time. I remember the first time I told her I wanted to sign up for a race. I was thinking of it in terms of us having a hobby that we might be able to do together, plus it is healthy. To my surprise she reacted very negatively and sarcastically and still does to this day.

What matters is how your wife sees it.

Correct, I was just giving you my perspective and the reason I failed to see it from her perspective. There are reasons not excuses.

Is there a reason you aren't answering this?

Can you give me a couple examples of the type of things you give your wife, the delivery used and what her response was?


Even when you were dating and newlyweds? She didn't want to kiss, hold hands, snuggle? Nothing? Ever?

Perhaps you can check DD's homework and if she did get an answer wrong, you can give DD a chance to work the problem again. Ask your wife, if that is agreeable. That way DD is still doing the work but was given an opportunity to correct the error. If your wife wants 100% but doesn't want DD to do the work then it is your wife's problem.

This year my children transferred to a new school. During the orientation, the parents were addressed by a school counselor while the children went off to meet their teachers. The counselor was not a child counselor...she was a parental counselor. The message was for parents to stop saving their children from failure. She specifically called out the mothers and told them to stop enabling and let their kiddos develop and grow up. If Johnny forgot his packed lunch, he would still eat and wouldn't starve. If Susie forgot her homework, let her take the hit on her grade so she can learn not to forget it again. Basically, do not bring the forgotten lunch or homework to school...or else your kids never learn consequences and aren't motivated to do for themselves. Her discussion was AWESOME and you could quickly tell whose feathers she ruffled and who were the mother hens.

Your wife may be this way...women tend to be that way vs men. Call your school district and see if they have a parental counselor. If they do, perhaps he/she can speak to you and your wife.

There's a lot of similarity to the way I used to treat my wife. She is also a runner and when she places high, I'd be the first to congratulate her. When she does something awesome with the kids, I'd be sure to praise her. I also took great joy in all her accomplishments. But she truly felt that everyone (including me and her) saw her accomplishments as less than mine.

Between you and me, when she placed first in a race, I bragged to all my buddies about it. But it wasn't about her getting a pat on the back, it was for me. I wanted people to pat me on the back (for nabbing a hot wife and providing so unselfishly for my family), and they did! Shamefully, I can admit now that at the time I felt like some sort of great benefactor to my W. How great of a man am I, providing all this for my family. Heck, the work I do ENABLES her to train so much. Any other husband would put her to work once the kids were in school. Without me, she wouldn't have this great life. How dare she not grovel at my feet thanking me and showering me with admiration?

I'll tell you why not. I was a disrespectful jerk...for years. Not only did she not admire me, she eventually HATED me. My wife withdrew into the ultimate IB, starting a secret second life. Didn't work out very well for me when OM started giving her the admiration I wasn't [really] giving her.

Nope not at all. I'm frustrated, but I wanted to speak with Steve before doing anything, hope you understand.

Taking a break from here, sorry, need to educate myself after speaking with Steve. thanks for everything.

My wife's response to speaking with Steve:

"I am completely opposed to MB and have no desire to follow anything it stands for. There are many reasons why I feel this way."

Then she dropped a bomb on me that she "plans on being gone the entire weekend including Monday." Not asking, telling me. Aside from one night with my sister wouldn't even tell me where. Hard to take someone serious and build trust in a relationship with stuff like this. As I told you before, she is the most unreasonable person in the world, and she is treating this as a game that she needs to beat me at all costs, and if that means we end our marriage, well then at least she won. Unreal. What a great start to my suggestion from Steve directly.

Ok, this is so disrespectful, and is a huge love buster. How would YOU feel if somebody was calling you disorganized when maybe you just don't feel like doing what they are trying to force you to do? My H is much the same, he has a perfectionist issue..it's his way or the highway. And he lets me know I'm failing to measure up. It's terrible. And it makes me HATE him. Sometimes the visual that pops into my head is that of a monster.

again, wow. Very disrespectful to say how efficient you are, and how much of a bad fit you are (aka, wife is inefficient). She is a HUMAN BEING. There is no one way to do everything. You were not blessed with knowing the "right way" to live life. You are not showing your wife respect at all.

I strongly suspect she is depressed because she is married to a man who is not at all respectful, and in fact is downright mean to her.

Probably you think you are listening, but in fact you hear her and then judge her. Have you ever listened to her without trying to "correct" her? I bet she wants someone to REALLY understand her pov. And from what I've seen here I doubt you actually listen with the intent of understanding her. I bet you (like my H) listen to judge. The reason she complains when you mess up, is because she isn't in love with you, and also you screwing up make her think you didn't listen in the first place.

My H does the same thing. But I don't believe him. He is mean, and I don't trust him. His compliments actually seem like they are a ploy to get me to ***edit***. So he seems like a liar in my eyes. you can't compliment someone and criticize them in the next breath, and have your compliment mean anything. You DO criticize your W. Every time you do that you tear down any credibility you have. I, too, don't allow my husband to touch me. I brush his arms away and say "don't touch me" because I hate him. I bet your wife feels similar. He feels like a lying sneak to me, and the stuff you say feels so similar to my situation (so similar I've wondered if you WERE my husband). He talks just like you. It's very disrespectful and has caused me to not only lose my love for him, but actually to hate him.

Again, I would be willing to bet she doens't think your thoughtfulness is genuine based on the time she's spent with you, and how hurtful you have been. My husband could have kept me happy with little things from the getgo, but now, I just don't even want them. Don't buy her clothes. Seriously. Do something romantic and THOUGHTFUL. Clothing is not it, jmo.

This is just a DJ. To say she values materialistic stuff. Do you even understand WHY. Do you even ask her why she wants something? I get the feeling you don't care, you just DJ her right off the bat. ***edit*** Seriuosly, this is disrespectful.

I would bet you might not be meeting many of her ENs at all. Everyone thinks my H is super dad too! He coaches soccer, is involved, all of it. But at the end of the day, WHOSE admiration do you most want? It should be your wife's. She's smart, she does not admire you because you are abusive. In fact, she sounds like me. My walls are up, I push my husband away and don't want his hugs either. She's probably in and out of withdrawl and conflict with you...and you do not help her to stay out of withdrawl because you hurt her more than anyone else. Stop hurting your wife!!!


If she was in love, she WOULD get over things. She doesn't get over things because more of the same is coming. And she knows that. Have you actually given her a reason to truly forgive you? Are you actually a CHANGED man who will never hurt her in that way again? My husband's favorite word is "sorry" and unfortunately it means nothing now. He's an abuser who says sorry but then just does it again. So likely, she is having trouble forgiving someone who is just going to keep hurting her over and over and over and over.

As for ruining the MB program, well why did you accuse her of an affair? She wasn't having one, so why did you link your accusations to the MB program.

I can tell you one thing: the MB program can save your marriage and can teach you to be a good husband. If you decide to do it. I'm hoping my H will! you don't need to call it MB to be a great thoughtful spouse who NEVER treats his wife disrespectfully and considers her opinions and doesn't act independently. If you just work the program I'm sure she would come around...but you have to commit to doing it for a LONG time. years...and she would come around. She has walls up to protect herself from you. And now you've linked MB to a husband accusing his wife of having an affair in her eyes. When most likely she just feels very much abused and withdrawn from you. If you want to save your marriage, stop hurting your wife!

And I will just say that the more you write on here, the more you sound like my husband. You aren't him, but wow, I feel like he is very much like you...so I think I'm in a unique position to understand your wife.

What did Steve suggest you do?

Great idea, yes, educate!

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi4200_radio.html

***EDIT***

When you are ready to see things objectively and without your own colored lenses feel free to come post again, in the mean time I think it best that we stay off each other's posts, thanks.

I think there are some valid points, but at the end of the day, what drives me to compliment my wife and remove as many things from her busy day is because I care for her and love her deeply. I do not want to control her and I'm not looking to somehow find a pat on the back for bragging about my wife and her race accomplishment. What I was trying to share with you all is some background on our situation and what possible reasons there are for her state of mind based on an article that Dr H wrote that resonated with me in the first place. I don't want groveling I want her not to be sarcastic, rude, and disrespectful in every moment of every day.

He suggested I respectfully see if my wife would speak with Steve to which she immediately rejected. Next step is to find the next best for of education to meet our goal of a happy romantic marriage. As of this moment it is getting some referrals to marriage therapists in our area.

Was anything recommended about you returning home vs staying out of the house?

Just chiming in... the couples who use MarriageBuilders typically have one reluctant spouse and one enthusiastic spouse. It's just the nature of the beast.

The couples where both are enthusiastic figure out how to resolve their differences and move on with their marriage.
The couples where neither are enthusiastic divorce and move on with their lives.

The couples that end up implementing MarriageBuilders are almost by definition those in which one spouse is much less enthusiastic than the other. In my case, I was the enthusiastic one, and my wife not so much. I simply began living it and encouraging her to follow, working my schedule to have the time to spend with her.

It works.

Now, unfortunately, the way our relationship STILL works today is that I'm the one that needs to block the time out so we spend enough together, and if I don't do it it doesn't get done. That generates some passive resentment on my part toward her, easily overcome by how much time we spend giving each other undivided attention. So don't assume because you work the program that eventually you can get lazy about it; the unenthusiastic partner might become enthusiastic about YOU working the program with them, but not trying to work it on their own! It's just the way life is sometimes :-)

Give it a try.

QUICK EDIT: OK, I read a bit more of the backstory. A foundational tenet of MarriageBuilders is "You are responsible for how other people feel about you, and they are responsible for how you feel about them". It's the core concept behind the Love Bank model, and the key to a happy, life-long, monogamous marriage.

But most are quick to disregard that truth. It doesn't jive with popular thinking, which is typically, "I am responsible for my own happiness".

I'd suggest an experiment this week: replace labels with descriptions of how you feel, instead of how she acts, and what she could do to cause you to feel differently. For instance, when you used to think "disorganized" about your wife, instead think, "I'd love it if she did this instead of that". When she does something awesome, tell her, "I love it when you do that," and even if you remember her having once done something she's not done in a while.

Learning to state your complaints in terms of "I love it when you do X", and "I'd love it if you wouldn't do X" keeps you focused on your goal: having her build a Love Bank balance with you, and vice-versa. But a key adjunct to this approach is never, ever say "I'd love it if you would/wouldn't be X". Wanting someone to behave differently is simply changing habits. Wanting someone to "be" something else is a level of wrong we typically want to avoid in marriage.

That was fairly predictable, HLB. It's not surprising she doesn't want anything to do with this programme when she is constantly being told she is wrong and you are right and you know the way.

She either gets DJ'd or left if she isn't singing from the MB hymn sheet.

I know that if I was getting educated about MB in this fashion, I would run for the hills too.

I have to say, I think this is a great idea. Much as I love MB, it isn't there to be shoved down people's throats who don't want it. The greatest food in the world becomes mush when it is force fed.

Your wife is a grown up who deserves the respect of being allowed to freely choose her own beliefs and coping systems. That is not unreasonable at all.

You can still be true to yours.




Yes exactly!! Now you're getting it. It is not just disrespectful but completely counter productive and useless to ponder on what you think the reasons why are.

It really does not matter at all what you think her motivations are. You will have success if you use that as your starting point for eliminating DJ's.

When I gave it my last effort at saving the marriage ex also spoke to Steve, and then we went to an MC in our area on our insurance. I asked her a lot of questions before we started like Dr. H advised in the article here. But it turned out the MC just said what I wanted to hear to get us in the door, and then gave us a lot of advice that just made things worse, about accepting one another's issues when they were actually things that we needed help finding lasting solutions for. I emailed her and told her how disappointed I was but she didn't have the skills or the mindset to help us find the answers we needed. Some folks are great for IC but not MC.

I hope your results are better. You can look up reviews online. How about the online course?

Or when you are asking the MC questions first, how about talking about the specific issues, and ask what the approach would be? I believe years of bad MC about learning to accept the unacceptable is part of what left me so hopeless I gave up. You need someone who is great at helping you two learn to find answers that work for both of you and great at challenging folks.

The things MrA has shared with us here from his counseling with Jennifer that I never heard in an MC office were

I'd love it if you...
I love it when you...

Everything I heard in our MC was about learning to settle. But settling isn't going to make you two happy. Effective help will help you two become irresistibly attractive to one another. If that doesn't happen, please change course before it's too late!

No. However I'm coming back Friday night and she is leaving to stay with my sister one night and a friend the other so that the kids and I can hang out.

We are gonna negotiate that, but we will be largely seeking a therapist that believes in marriage, and that marriage needs to be mutually beneficial. The kind that gets us to see that this is "our problem" not "her problem" or "his problem." I do not believe, can't speak for my wife, that the modern believe of "do whatever feels good" is ever going to work and I'm well aware of this prevailing perspective in the therapy community abroad. This is why we are going to select the therapist together, not rush into it a moment of weakness and anger.

I think many counselors believe in marriage but just don't have the skills or a PLAN to recover a marriage. If you don't have an effective, ironclad plan, then all the skill in the world will not help your marriage. What you need is a counselor who believes in the steps in THIS plan and has the skills to motivate you and your wife to follow these steps. If a counselor has any plan OTHER than the steps outlined here, I would be very cautious because it is doubtful that it will work.

One of the prevailing themes with marriage counselors is the practice of accepting your spouse as she/he is just as NED experienced. That is a road to marital disaster. Dr Harley cautions against that philosophy in one of his newsletters:

here

To quote Steve verbatim yesterday on the phone, "We are not the only game in town." He went further to say that it is ok to interview and understand the tenets of each program and furthermore that we can even request our own program. As it stands my wife is opposed to MB, but that doesn't mean that she won't in the future.

Please listen to the clips in here.
Beware of Bad Counselors

She is opposed to Marriage Builders, or she is opposed to the STEPS of Marriage Builders? Is she opposed to spending time with you? Is she opposed to eliminating disrespect? Is she opposed to creating an integrated marriage that is romantic and passionate? Is she opposed to eliminating independent behavior? Is she opposed to falling in love with you?

If she won't follow those steps, I ASSURE you that you are wasting your time, regardless of what you want to call it. You can call it the Marriage Builders program or you can call it the hootenanny express, those are the steps to a happy, romantic marriage.

If there is a way to create such a marriage without spending 20 hours of UA time together I would like to know about it. Because Dr Harley has proven that you won't have a romantic marriage without that step.

At this moment she associates MB with a bad time in her life and it is not an option right now. I can't ever love bust again and get buy in for anything, this I know. She just told me in a text that she has never forgiven nor forgotten anything I've ever done. When she looks at me, all she sees are the bad things from my past. She thinks I don't trust her, she thinks I want to control her, and that is all there is to it. MB might be the best, but not the only, and I think suggesting that it is MB or divorce, isn't really being objective Melody. I'll continue to bring it up respectfully, now and again, but until she I stop lovebusting and she starts believing forgiveness, I doubt she'll consider it at all.

You can follow MB concepts without ever mentioning MB to her. You don't have to use the terms "Lovebuster" or "Undivided Attention time" or "Emotional Needs" in order to start treating her with respect and taking her out on dates to make her feel cherished.

These concepts are what work, and they work just fine without the label "MB" attached to them.

Already started

Never did I suggest divorce or MB. What I am suggesting is that you use these concepts without the label. There is not another way unless you know something I don't. What is the other way to create a romantic marriage? Sure, these steps are not exclusive to Marriage Builders, but who else uses them?

Does the therapist have such a plan?

Do you have the book Effective Marriage Counseling? If I were you, I would download that book on kindle for PCs and start reading it. In it, Dr Harley outlines the necessary steps to create a romantic marriage.

You can read this book and share it with the therapist. He can coach you through Marriage Builders without ever using that TITLE. See what I mean? You don't have to use the terminology, but you do have to use the steps.

That little book is probably my favorite MB book. It is interesting, easy to read and takes you step by step through the program.

Downloading now.

Moving back in to house tonight. Fresh clean slate, no one is allowed to be disrespectful at any time to each other. Talk the talk is how she phrased. There will be no discussing of "us" and our relationship until we get in front of a therapist. In the mean time I'll read the book ML suggested as fast as possible.

What will you do when she slips up?

This is exactly what I had to do. Prisca hated Marriage Builders because of my own disrespect and love busters. Look at the gaps in her posting history - some of those are because she was busy, but some of them are because she was mad at me!

When we crossed the romantic love threshold again earlier this year, she almost immediately insisted that we come back here again.

From Effective Marriage Counseling:

"My efforts to convince couples that they should learn selflessness and be committed to each other for life didn�t work. In almost every couple I counseled, there was at least one spouse who felt that selflessness and commitment made no sense at all. That spouse wanted out. And in most cases, the other spouse wasn�t in the mood to be selfless or committed after being the victim of neglect, abuse, infidelity, and other indignities."

Walk away for now.

So you crossed it and then lost it? I wasn't aware. Massive AO?

We crossed it many, many times on this journey. It wasn't until this year that it appears we made things permanent.

My last AO was over a year ago - Prisca insisted that I was moving out and could not live with her unless they stop completely. That was the end of the excuses for me. After what I now call "Super 8 motel therapy," I had to learn to not have an angry outburst no matter what, including even if Prisca has one herself.

Super 8 motel - last year, summer
Antidepressants - Dec last year - March this year
Recovery: from around March, onward

It probably took her back to that bad place in a moment's notice. Love Bank annihilated = Motel 8. All the thinking and researching about my wife and why she does thing helps me a lot, it is how my brain works, understanding things helps me accept them a bit more. It doesn't mean that the same process won't/can't be followed, which is to me eliminate LBs entirely, but it means that I'm much more aware of the "why's" and it helps keep me aware of what is at stake if I do. Great part is, if I truly commit to this once again, even if she doesn't commit, there is no other outcome but success.

Ok so I'm headed home tonight, then take family out for dinner to break the ice and have some fun. This isn't going to be an easy path and what I'm most fearful of is how to react/respond to a DJ, SD, or AO. I know they will be coming, so I need to rehearse what to say and how to react. Last SD by me was about 10pm on Tuesday, none since, but that has been via text. We are not going to "talk" about us, but we will watch some tv just to get used to being in the same room together. I offered to sleep in spare bedroom depending on how she felt but didn't get an answer to it. I'm in a place where getting my needs met hasn't been what bothers me the most. It is the DJs and SDs. They get to me, and then I get fed up and fire back. I will not do that but I certainly am wide open on specific examples of how to respond and/or not respond when they inevitably will come.

Rule #1 - stay calm!

Get that biofeedback meter Dr. Harley talks about and work with it - you will learn a lot about staying calm.

Since you aren't talking about the relationship, if she is demanding or disrespectful toward you, save your complaint about it for later. (That's what Dr. Harley recommends anyway - a weekly worksheet rather than trying to talk about it on the fly.)

There were times in the beginning when I would have to say, "I'm sorry but I need to take a walk." This was better than me yelling and saying something hateful.

That's great news, HLB.


Yes, we do understand. That is why Dr H says they have to be eliminated FIRST before anything else can happen. The first priority is to make sure you dont fire 'back'. It's not an SD or DJ to say you're stressed and need to take five. It takes practice to do this cheerfully and calmly instead of creating a dramatic mood.

One thing Dr H recommends is practicing cheerful and calm negotiation on small issues before talking about the relationship. For example, practice PoJA on each item to go in the basket in the grocery store.

Once you can negotiate what kind of cereal you're both happy with using PoJA and respect, you're ready for bigger topics.

It was a pleasant night. A little bit of talk about us, but not much and all of it was positive about where we are going and that we both have the skills and desire to get there. My wife is fearful of therapy, I am less so because I'm so determined to make it about me. In the past I was concerned about SD's. Since it is a request, that implies there needs to be an answer, but I guess that isn't true. For me the trick is making sure that when I "take 5" I do it respectfully particularly with no facial expressions. I full expect that when I do this, there will be a backlash, but I'm determined not to make her pay for it. I will recite in my head, "Pointless, pointless, pointless" to keep myself in awareness mode that trying to fire back serves absolutely no purpose.

YES! I can see you getting it.



Exactly. Just because most of us are born with this instinct doesn't mean we can't change it.

Dr H said when he was learning to scuba dive it was instinctive to panic when he stopped getting airflow. But he and many other people have learned how to stay calm, and fix the airflow when this happens on a dive. Similarly in marriage we can unblock conflicts without letting basic instinct muddy the water.

So I realize now that my wife and I started on our journey not expecting anything from each other. I mean needs were met, and there were few enough lovebusters that we crossed the threshold enough to tie the knot. As life got more complicated, with children, and there were many more responsibilities and stresses in our life the lovebusters increased and the needs being met decreased. So then one day I wake up and decide that after 7 years that I suddenly had expectations in our marriage. In my wife's defense, this is not what she had signed up for in the first place. I think it is safe to say we both led very independent lives, and it was me that started to demand that we shift into a partnership, not over time but "from this day moving forward." We never started as partners, yet somehow we were able to make it work, at least for a period of time. Where we are now was inevitable because we never learned what it really means and what it takes to have a mutually beneficial relationship. It doesn't matter if it is marriage, or any other relationship. If I were to give a customer free services for six months and then told him he needed to pay me one day, you better believe it is human nature to take exception to that request, especially if it is in a demand. It is true in every single permutation in the human psyche to react this way. I told my wife, through my actions, that I did not require anything from her from day one, and two years ago I started to demand that she pay, and I don't blame her one bit for being upset about it.

What have you done today that is going to make your wife feel better about herself, you and your marriage?

From your posts I get the impression that you care a great deal about turning your marriage around. On the other side, you must beware of something:

People have two sides, a giver and a taker. If the giver is active, your mind circles around how you can make the other person happy. If the taker is active, you are very aware of everything you do for your spouse and it could be that you don't notice half as much what your spouse is doing for you.

In your current situation, it is very likely that your taker, is overactive. Please realize, that to have a good relationship, you alsohave to control your taker.

Read up on the giver and the taker here:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3550_give.html

God bless

Happyheart

I'm well familiar with my Taker, he causes the big fights every time. I also know my Giver well, he gives repeatedly, then the Taker comes to straighten it out. I've been to this point in our relationship many times. All the times in the past I'd set myself to eliminate all lovebusters but I would never complain. When you don't complain respectfully you are giving unconditional love which is totally unsustainable. I guess I figured that if my wife knew I needed something then she should just do it, and that I shouldn't have to bring it up over and over. It isn't that she doesn't know, it is that by not bringing it up, I'm not keeping it in the forefront.

Today she lovebusted me. She put words in my mouth and made some assumptions about how I was feeling about a situation. I calmly and respectfully told her that this bothered me and I'd appreciate it if she wouldn't do that moving forward. She came back and did it again, so I didn't fire back, I simply repeated my request with as little emotion as I could. She is heading out so I kissed and told her to not worry about the kids, I got it covered, and to have a great time tonight. Furthermore I offered a coffee on the way home to make sure she knew that there is no hard feelings and that my request was simply that, nothing else.

"If the taker is active, you are very aware of everything you do for your spouse and it could be that you don't notice half as much what your spouse is doing for you. "

I'm not sure about that. I don't think that the inequity in the relationship that I feel causes me to not notice half of what she is doing for me, I really don't. My needs are met scarcely but that is likely because A. I'm still making my wife feel bad, and B. I don't complain enough. I intend to change that this time around.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8122_wife.html

This sounds great, well done.

Pretty good 3 days I'd say for my wife and I. I have been following the plan and I've seen a lot less DJs and SDs from my wife. That makes me happy. She also got a couple referrals of marriage counselors in our area which we'll investigate soon. My wife is opposed to MB and I understand why. There is no fault on the part of MB, but there most certainly is with me. I didn't follow the plan and some very ugly things happened which I wish I could take back. MB has the track record and the credentials so I hope some day she is able to investigate it one day in the future.

My plan with the counselor we choose is to let her and my wife know what I need in this marriage. My needs are:

Affection - I'm an affectionate guy. Receiving affection from my wife makes me feel like "I'm her guy." I don't currently feel that.
Sexual Fulfillment - Ideally we'd have sex 1-2 times a week. Tue and Thu are ideal, after a workout while all of our kids are in school. Night time is when we are both tired and out of energy so this solution works well since I work out of the house. I have suggested before to my wife.
Physical Attractiveness - This is met just fine. I think my wife is incredibly attractive from top to bottom.
Admiration - I would like to be admired by my wife for the things I do and successes or ideas I have. She is proud of me providing for us, but on most other subjects I don't find her to share in my joy.

The things I don't like are:

DJs - My wife is frequently disrespectful to me, and I towards her. I would like to agree together that disrespect and judging has no place in our home or relationship.
SDs - My wife frequently demands that I do things and I don't like that. I prefer to be asked for things not told things. I would like to also agree that we don't demands things of each other and that we always, always find a win/win for both of us.
Independent Behavior - My wife is a very independent person. Part of it is because I neglected her for the first 5 years of marriage so she set out to go fill that void with her friends. Nevertheless, the general feeling I have is that might wife wants me to do what I want to do and for her to do what she wants to do. I'm not ok with that model. I want an integrated marriage whereby we consult with the other person on all activities with respect.

A scenario like the one above would make me very happy in this marriage.

So it is very apparent that I tune out my wife. I don't intentionally do this but each time I don't hear something that she told me it really makes her feel bad. I literally have no recollection of the things that she says she tells me sometimes. I want to change this, but I don't know how. It is important to me that my wife and I figure out a way where we are able to minimize this from occurring because it is a big, big deal to her.

In my defense I do feel very overwhelmed at the volume of things that my wife tells me. I feel like I go on system overload and I must subconsciously shut it down. I don't seem to have this issue in other parts of my life like work or anything, it is specifically with my wife.

Kinda dead in here this week. Hoping for some help on this issue. I'd really like to be able to listen, comprehend, and remember my wife's requests as they occur. I know that the brains of men and women differ greatly in their capacity to take in information. It would make me happy if my wife researched this as well so that she understood my perspective as well. My concern is that she thinks that if I forget something, that I simply don't care. I do care, but with all I have to remember at work, I have a very hard time shifting back and forth between the two environments. I segment things a lot. It is not that I have any desire or reason not to complete what she asks, it is that I find it very hard to multitask and memorize the next task or activity. In the work world I have a never ending series of reminders and alerts. I'm starting to think that setting my business up to only "react" to an email or reminder has made my memory useless without it. All I know is remembering all the things my wife tells me stresses me out because I'm terrified to forget something, for fear that it will make her feel bad. Sometimes it is not that any harm was done by forgetting something, it is more on a level that by not remembering, she thinks that I just don't care about anything. This has been a common complaint in the past. I do care, but I don't think I have the capacity to manage this much information on a consistent basis. We communicate a ton during the day. Volumes of texts, both of us constantly, letting each other know where we are and what we are doing, etc. What I struggle with is when my wife tells me a future date and that I forget that date when I mention an alternate event on the same day. In this particular case my wife said she told me that I could meet my mom so that she could give a gift to our little one any day but this Wed. I honestly have no recollection of this specific statement but she says she did. When my mom sent me a note asking what day, I wasn't operating in the mindset of my wife's calendar, I was simply trying to solve a problem. In my mind I just wanted to find a date that worked for me, my wife, and my mom. So I asked my wife if Wed worked and it in fact did not. She was upset because I didn't remember. From her perspective I'm sure I seemed inconsiderate. I didn't mean to I was just trying to solve a problem.

Buy a notebook. Write down her requests.

As for the male/female brain thing, I get it. I do just as I suggested for work.

How about a big family calender on the kitchen wall with a to do list? If your wife pledges to put her requests on the to do list or mark off any special days she needs you to take note of on the calendar, you could pledge to check it every day when you get home and put the details in your phone/calendar. Or you could both sit down and update your calenders and to do list daily/weekly.

Dr Harley is a big fan of couples getting organised. As UA time is the cornerstone of the marriage, he suggests couples sit down once a week and set aside 15 hours UA time for each other. There's no reason you can't schedule other things at the same time (so long as the UA time goes in first). Not sure if your wife is on board with UA time yet but it can't hurt to get her thinking about when to sit down and organise stuff.

Another thing you can do is get your wife to email instead of text. Most email packages let you drag the email into the associated email calendar very easily.

Keep brainstorming until you find a solution you are both enthusiastic about.

I'm curious: what are you referring to here? What ugly things happened that you wish you could take back? This information might help posters to better understand her reluctance and give you suggestions for helping overcome it.


This is great news! I've heard Dr. Harley say that a committed husband has a much better chance of winning over a reluctant wife than vice-versa: so your odds are GREAT.

So glad you're counseling with Steve. He is top-notch.

He made some SDs that she follow MB, he also tried to educate her about it. When she wasn't willing he made some DJ's about her reasons not to. After these series of lovebusters she is probably triggered at the mere mention of MB.

It doesn't matter as he can follow the principles and encourage her in a gentle way without using the lingo.

Thanks Indie. I read that earlier, just wasn't sure if he was referring to something else in the post above? As he afterward said she felt neglected, developed an IB lifestyle, and feels uncared-for when he forgets things that are important to her. Just trying to clarify the "issue of the moment," so posters can be as helpful as possible.

I'm concerned that my idea of a calendar might make her feel that I'm trying to instruct or control. I can't afford that now. I'm trying to pay attention better when I hear her talking and trying to see the difference between her talking out loud vs her talking to me. If I'm sending an email to a client, this is difficult and I might not even hear her at all. What I need to avoid is to acknowledge things that I haven't in fact heard. I did ask her today, when I didn't quite hear her, ask her if what she said was something I needed to remember, it wasn't. I'm also trying to stop what I'm doing and look at her, or also stop what I'm doing and put a reminder in my calendar.

My wife needs to feel safe that I'm not gonna once again become disrespectful to her or demanding for a longer period of time, as in forever, than in the past. What has happened historically is my Taker would get upset, and I would allow myself to go back to how I was before. It had the net effect of destroying any love I had built up over the period of time where my Taker was behaved. I've done this more than once, much more than once so my credibility is shot. I've come to terms that my needs not being met are unrelated to me lovebusting my wife. My anxiety and unhappiness of the state of my marriage is also unrelated to me lovebusting my wife. My wife's lovebusters towards me are also unrelated to me lovebusting my wife.

Good for you being sensitive to this problem. The males in my family have an auditory processing disorder which means they simply cannot hear when they are hyper focused. We got into the habit of asking for an acknowledgement.

Looking up and repeating back what you heard is good too.

I might have that disorder. We ask for acknowledgement with my kids, and I have no problem having her ask for acknowledgement provided it is respectfully done. It wouldn't feel very good on my end if she did so with DJs or Demands.

HL, obviously I don't know your wife but I would be amazed if it would offend her if you would ask her "How would you FEEL about getting a wall calendar and writing tasks on it?"

If its any comfort at all, Dr Harley himself says he has ADHD and Joyce agrees!

I hear ya, it is more of a timing thing, this is new again for us after trying this awhile back. Even if I'm not trying to educate my wife, it could possibly come off that way based on me doing it a lot in the past. I'll get to that point, but for now I want to see what things I can do first before I request that she do things as well.

I spoke to a couples therapist and I found her to be quite reasonable very much in tune with MB-type concepts. I was open about my feelings on what I found to be the fundamentals of a couples therapist. I was very vocal about the type of therapy that I disagree with, which is the modern focus of "just accept who he/she is" and live with it. She is adamantly opposed to that as well, and used the word "mutually beneficial" on more than one occasion. She impressed me because she was able to pick up on the fact that the current situation might need some tweaking in terms of our environment. I let her know that I'm not looking to make this a "venting" session and that I really wanted to learn, particularly about my wife's perspective. I also let her know that I'd be happy to tell her and my wife what I'm looking for in the relationship, as well as what bothers me. Mostly I let her know that I'm fully ready to begin the process by looking internally to begin with which she liked very much. I gather the average client is not prepared to do this. My wife was made aware of the conversation and plans to have one herself.

Have you written Dr. Harley?

Written and spoken to him before. Spoke with Steve and he is aware that she is unwilling to consider MB at this time. He stated that "We are not the only game in town." He was supportive of me seeking couples therapy as long as I did my homework and followed the rules. He was concerned of all things of my wife's competitive nature. He gathered this from her running achievements and said that he fully expects her to "dig her heels in." She may, but again this unrelated to me lovebusting her so I simply won't.

Good call, HLB. From personal experience I can say that taking responsibility for my Lovebusters - regardless of difficult circumstances - was one of the most enlighting experiences of my life. Boy, did my blaming finger want to keep pointing at anything else...but I finally realized I am 100% responsible for my behavior, no matter what. Not a fun thing to admit, but I'm so much happier now (crazy thought, but true).

Glad you're getting counseling and posting here. You've got great odds of winning back your wife. It might take time to 'prove' to her that you're finished LB'ing (as you mentioned above) but you can do it!

Yes I'm ok with being responsible for my behavior. The hard part is keeping yourself under control when needs are not being met. I would be very happy if my wife were affectionate, met my need of SF, and admiration. Each day that goes by, I'm hopeful that I'll see a small gesture. Last night didn't go well. I don't mean lovebusting, I mean in that we had an opportunity to meet each other's needs but it didn't happen. I tried to get a few conversations going but it didn't work. She just wanted to play games on her phone. I know she is withdrawn, but it doesn't make it any easier.

So I spoke to a recommended therapist for my wife and I yesterday. I sent her contact info to my wife. She said last night that she'd maybe call her today and then we could make appointment which was good. I have to give my wife every opportunity to make that call. I hope she makes the call cause I really, really liked her. If she doesn't make the call, I won't do anything other than to respectfully ask her again tomorrow and leave it at that. In the past I had a very difficult time doing this and I'd make her pay for it with a DJ or SD usually.

Any updates, HLB?
How's the counseling going, and how are you doing eliminating LBs?