My wife's 9 year old is a spiteful, hateful girl with a sharp tongue. She has been since before we got married three years ago (my one and only hesitation to getting married). I get on her for being so being so disrespectful, but my wife won't allow me to say anything to her about it. She quotes this:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5008_qa.html

"At first, you may not agree about much of anything, in which case you are not to discipline the children (they may do whatever they please). But as you practice applying the policy, you and your husband will begin to establish guidelines in child-rearing issues, and agreements will start to form. Eventually, you will agree on how to discipline your children in a way that takes each others feelings into account, and your marriage will be saved."

My DW won't stop the kid from speaking to me the way she does. I feel like the woman in Dr. Harley's book who had a stepdaughter that scissored all her clothes. I have had it, and let her know she needs to do her job if she is to be the only one to do the disciplining. Now she wants a divorce!!!!

The 9yo girl has a dad in Dallas who gives her anything she wants, including a $500 smart phone. The divorced dad in Dallas (DDID?) also lets the girl verbally and physically abuse her older brother when they are visiting him (he's a really sweet kid and never causes trouble), then the DDID punishes my stepson if he retaliates (or even protects himself) at all.

There is NO POJA when it comes to my stepdaughter. She definitely does as he pleases and has no repercussions. The punishments my wife gives her are entirely ineffective as there have been no positive results or improvements.

I get attacked and have no protection emotionally. I tried really hard to not say anything to the girl when she acts/says what she does, but it's really hard not to do so. Wife wants me to come get her when she does those things so she can talk to her, but it's just a little "don't speak to him that way" and SD says "OK mom" and does it again a few hours later.


I don't understand why I have to be the "bad guy" here.

Do you want to save your marriage?

{rant on} I think it should be obvious, or I would never bother to waste my time posting here, and would have left by now and none of you would have heard word one from me about any of it.... I do NOTHING unless I have a good reason to do so.{rant off}

I don't want to sound snide. I imagine the some of the responses people would like to say is this: "shut up and let the kid be as rotten as she chooses to, and as much as your wife chooses to let her. The only way to save your marriage is to let it happen that way".(That sentiment coincides with the Dr. Harley quote)

WHO in their right mind wants to live a home life like that!?!? Talk about love busters... If I had a kid that was treating my DW like that, I think I had better **** well step in and put a stop to it if I felt like I should expect any affection from my wife! How awful would that be for her??

I get enough bad attitudes 10-12 hours a day at work - all I want when I get home is a little peace and some time to ''de-stress''. If I can't get that, then why should I even bother going home?!? Should I go to the bar and de-stress there instead? I don't think that is a good solution.

Okay, so if the answer is "yes, I want to save my marriage" I need to let you know that you are going to have to invest a lot more time into learning this program than you have been investing. I have read several of your wife's posts and your posts - several times you have talked about how you have "no time."

If you don't make time, your wife is going to divorce you.

We'll be glad to help.

Sounds like you have a pretty sharp tongue yourself. Is this how you talk to your wife about the subject?

This problem and all marital problems are impossible to resolve in the presence of angry outbursts. I see that you have previously refused to take any sort of anger management training. That is going to make this problem impossible to solve, and your marriage will very likely end in divorce.

I recommend you start here, because you can listen while at work or while driving to work:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi4200_radio.html

The show is on all the time; each day's show repeats for 23 hours until the next show.

Do you have the book Love Busters? Can you buy the ebook version and read from work?

Lay off the disrespectful judgements for the time being!!!

I am just a little bit upset at the moment.

If you have a hard time understanding as how I might be upset............... then please refrain from forming opinions about me until you get to know me better. Is that OK with ?!?

I'll bet you would feel the same way if you were in my shoes right now!!!!!

In your previous threads, we advised you to schedule 15+ hours a week with your wife alone, without the children. This should give you plenty of good time to destress - plus, if you want to save your marriage, you're going to have to do this.

Okay, I have no idea what you are talking about, and if you want to save this marriage, you need to learn and implement this program. You MUST get anger management training. You MUST make time to learn this program, or your wife is going to divorce you.

Will you get into anger management?

Can you get your wife to come back and post?

Yet you married...why? If this girl is as you describe and her mother does not want to discipline her...well...you knew all this when you married.

Of course I felt that way when I came here! Then I used this program to save my marriage.

We need to get you engaged in taking the steps to turn this around.

Yes, we have read from the book.

Y'all folks need to remember one more thing - you don't know my wife. You only know what she has typed. You most likely have never met her, and YOU DO NOT live with her. You also have NO IDEA if she is "embellishing the details a little" when she posts here. Because you don't live with her.

Don't believe you think you know her as well as you think you might. Everyone's a hero when they are telling their side of the story, right? Especially when hiding behind a keyboard.

How much of what she said is the truth? I'll bet you don't know for sure, because she has penchant for slanting opinions towards her by choosing her words and phrases carefully. Don't be so quick to judge her character because she is on here frequently - - She might give great advice at times to others, but that doesn't mean she puts the same amount of effort into her own marriage, OK?

Come over to my house and live with us for a few months before you pretend to know the woman she is actually is.

I didn't need it before I got married.

If someone hits you on the thumb every day, do you need an aspirin to stop the pain?

..Or shouldn't you just take the hammer away from them?

Makes sense, doesn't it?

I don't understand why you are trying to convince us we know your wife or don't, or why you're posting the big bolded sections.

If you want to stop your wife from divorcing you, you need to get invested learning this program. Did you see that Love Busters says you should ELIMINATE angry outbursts, disrespectful judgments, and selfish demands? How do you feel about doing that?

I am sure she'll be along......

Your wife is going to divorce you if you don't learn to eliminate angry outbursts. Do you want to save your marriage, or just post reasons here why you don't want to follow the plan that will save it?

We are trying to get you to put the hammer down. To do that, you need to take anger management.

You have previously disregarded this recommendation (which is exactly what Dr. Harley advised), and now your wife is threatening divorce. If you continue to disregard the steps that save marriages, you're not likely to proceed on to marital happiness.

Why does anyone make a mistake in life?

Have you never made a mistake? Have you NEVER felt like (at the time) you were making a good decision, only to find out later you should have been more careful?

Do you feel like you are trying to help me right now, or are you trying to make me think I was stupid for doing so? Think about that before typing a post that could be perceived as an attack against me.

Did you follow the plan in the book to eliminate angry outbursts, selfish demands, and disrespectful judgments together? The plan works very well and teaches you to change your habits. It involves exchanging a weekly worksheet to give each other feedback.

Reading the book but not following the plan doesn't work any better than reading a diet and then eating whatever you want.

Ernie, ***EDIT*** Good luck and adios!

I am just extremely upset right now.

And I also feel VERY DEFEATED!!!!!

I apologize for sounding so upset.

Please don't judge me on my "upsettedness" - - it isn't who I truly am. Just try to understand me for a little while, OK?

You (no one specific person) are in no position to cast any stones (am I correct?) so please keep that in mind when you think about adding your two cents.


I am really not trying to take my frustrations out on anyone here right now..... but everyone needs to think their replies through carefully before posting.

I am sensing a LOT (tremendous amount) of disrespectful judgements going on here.

Please read my previous post. That was so disrespectful.

Thank you. I appreciate your stance towards me.
You I trust... some others just want to attack me ;'-(

Are you willing to invest the time that markos has suggested?
Are you willing to do what it will take to save your marriage?

Ernie, I don't think I'm judging you. I'm trying to help you focus on what you need to do to save your marriage. Your wife is threatening divorce, but using this plan you can still turn things around. Helping people do that is what we do here.

It sounds like you're focusing on making a good impression with us, rather than taking the steps that need to be done. Don't worry about making a good impression - I was a complete JERK when I came here! The person you need to impress is not us; it's your wife!

Are you ready to get to work?

I'm seeing a lot of posts from you telling us what we need to think about you and your wife - but not a lot of posts saying "Thank you for the suggestion - I'm going to do that!" For example, I posted a link to the radio show and suggested you start listening. Going to do that? I've suggested you follow the plan in Love Busters to eliminate demands, disrespect, and anger. Going to do that? I'm convinced you probably need to take anger management - I had to do that myself to save my marriage! Are you going to do that?

If you get to work on these things, you can probably save your marriage. And probably build a great relationship with your stepdaughter down the road, too.

Quit arguing with people, because it doesn't help you save your marriage at all. If you want to, you can just click ignore on people.

Ready to get to work?

I don't want that. Financially it is difficult in our house, and I feel like "the only way out" in sometimes is to work harder to keep the bills paid.

My wife is a S.A.H.M. I do not know what she spends her child support on (~ $850 a month) and she has never shared her bank account information with me. I mentioned this in an email recently and she never responded to me. She does pay the power each month (~$300) but I pay all the other expenses.

I can't even imagine where the time and money would come from to take anger management, since there is already a huge shortage of time and money the way things are now.

You are not going to make it, then. I'm sorry.

It seems like everything we suggest you do, you have a reason not to do it.

A divorce is going to be a lot more expensive than learning proper anger management.

Did you know that people with good marriages typically do much better financially than those with bad marriages?

yes........my emotions have shifted down one gear. I am a little more rational now.... I just can't believe that way I was being treated for a bit, there.

I know it is going to be tough.... I know it always is.

OK - {rant on} I *feel* like I am always being told I am the one who has to make all the sacrifices in our marriage to make it better (I feel used up and spent as it is already). I *feel* like no one ever wants to hear my side, and I also *feel* like my feelings and emotions should not matter to anyone...like they don't count.... and I feel that a lot from my wife.{rant off}

sorry all about the venting I am doing :-(

Oh, truly.... I am not trying to make any excuses. I am just ''wondering aloud'',that's all.

Bear with me.

Well, no, you don't have to do stuff to save your marriage. You don't have to save it at all. You CAN save it, if you want to, using this program.

There are no sacrifices required. Marriage Builders stands against sacrifice in marriage - it is a marriage destroying practice.

That does not mean you don't need to change. Both you and your wife will have to change and make adjustments in order to have a good marriage.

One thing that absolutely must change is that you must eliminate demands, disrespect, and anger. You can't have a good marriage with these three bad behaviors. You need to learn to recognize and eliminate them. I hope you don't view giving up these nasty things as "sacrifice."

Lots of "venting" and "wondering" - not a lot of "following the suggestions and taking the steps necessary."

This program works when followed!

Have you seen Lord of the Rings?

I cannot access that from where I am ... but I will listen to it when I get home.

well, I am at work right now.... so keep that in mind, I am trying to type responses in between doing my job.

Then you will need to take anger management. Your marriage will not survive if you don't.
You also need to re-read Lovebusters. Particularly the chapters on Disrespectful Judgements and Angry Outbursts. You need to come up with a plan to completely eliminate these.

It will not always be tough, if you follow the plan. Markos and I have been there, followed the plan, and now are in a marriage that's better than we ever dreamed. It's not tough on us anymore.

I suggest as part of your commitment to eliminate Angry Outbursts and Disrespectful Judgements, you also stop ranting. Rants feed your anger, and are unproductive.

Yeah, me too - I had to figure out this whole program while holding down a fulltime job. I got the radio show archives and downloaded them and listened to them on my commute, which was extremely helpful.

Email her and suggest she come post here. We can help you guys.

I just started reading the thread she started... http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2673758

There is a lot of what she has said that simply isn't true.

I am not sure how to approach her about that.

Some of the things she said were true years ago (bank account info back in 2010) but the only money that goes into my personal account (a few hundred) pays my credit card and student loan - the other $1200 per paycheck goes into our joint account. She pays the power bill and no other expenses. She has not put any child support money into our joint account, ever.

Erie,

We're not here to make friends. We all have careers and families and other things that take up our time. So when we post on here, we are straight and to the poin. When you started posting, you responded with big, bolded letters which is the same as yelling. And you deflected issues onto how you were being essentially picked on. So the question is do you want help or not. If you simply want to rant, start a blog.

The two of you need to both read love busters and do the work sheets.
I would strongly urge both of you to merge all your money into a joint accout.


Have your calmly spoken to your wife when the daughter says something to you when she says something to you?

Don't worry about sorting out all the old stuff. The first thing you need to learn to do is stop fighting with your wife - stop the demands, disrespect, and anger.

Yes - I do. I have been looking at anger management counselors in the area on the web for the last 10-15 minutes


Yes, we have done some of the work sheets, but since we have been getting along so well these last few months we have not been doing them. Money has always been a sore subject since we got into a lot of debt early in our marriage (wedding itself, moving, buying a house, fixing the house, etc.)


Yes - many times, but only in the last 3-4 months (maybe 2-3? not sure) or so since I have been trying to change to work things out this way. I don't often feel like the results are heading in a good direction, though. I would love to see some improvement as it would make life at home so much better.

Okay, I see you are moving in the right direction if you are looking into anger management.

Here's some information from Dr. Harley that should help you as far as evaluating the anger management offerings you see: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2603602#Post2603602

A big part of the problem is that you are addressing the conflicts disrespectfully. Any time one of you expresses a perspective that the other "should" do something, or that it is his or her "job" to do something, you are being disrespectful.

I understand this is a learning process. I'll do my best, but don't be surprised if I make a mistake or two while learning.

We're not surprised at all when you make a mistake. We all have. The question is, what are you going to do about it?

Oh, I won't be. I made mistakes for quite a long time after coming here.

Again, the person you need to impress is not us - it's your wife! You need to ELIMINATE demands, disrespect, and anger. You need to know about anything you say that she finds disrespectful.

There are a lot of things in your top post on this thread that are disrespectful towards your wife. Would you like us to point those out so you can learn to start recognizing them and not talk that way? Often an upset wife won't feel like pointing these out for her husband.

Again, I just want to express a heartfelt thanks for your help. That IS the ONLY reason why anyone bothers to post, correct?

There are many places I could have gone, but I chose to come HERE. That should say a lot about the people on the MB forums.

It should also say a lot about how Dr. Harley feels about this forum, as he wouldn't sanction these message boards if he weren't in support.

You need to learn to not talk like your wife "should" do something or it's "her job" to do something.

For the immediate time being, I need for my head to stop swimming!! Not sure if I should head home or not after work - but I don't have any other place to go (literally). My mother in law is visiting for the week, and she is a wonderful, Godly saint of a woman. I might call or text her first and let her know before I head that way. Elaina77 and I have also been in contact with some folks from church and lifegroup, so I think we will be in good hands with some help from them as well.

I want to discuss the different AM options with Elaina since I know she wants to have a say in that decision. I have "5 steps to Romantic Love" workbook and am wondering if I should make any copies out of it?

I will focus on that.

What is the proper response when she says the same things to me?

You make a request. "Honey I would appreciate if..." or "I would appreciate it if you wouldn't...."

Use the weekly worksheets as described in Love Busters. Then she doesn't see your complaint until a few days later, when she has calmed down.

Most of us when we get here aren't capable of letting each other know about demands, disrespect, and angry outbursts "on the fly" - it just results in a fight! Hence the worksheets.

So stop sacrificing.

It's not part of the program.

If SD is not behaving well, remove yourself from the scene. Don't get angry, get gone.

You don't have to put up with the child's behavior.

You do have to end your angry outbursts.

End the angry outbursts and refuse to put up with unacceptable behavior from the child. If your wife asks why you walk away, explain that you do not enjoy SD's behavior and will remove yourself from the situation.

No one is suggesting that you sacrifice and suffer. You are asked to end your angry outbursts and spend UA time with your wife.

You both are destroying your marriage. But you pointing out her faults isn't going to fix the marriage or help you address your part in this destructive dance.

Things are on a good path. Have been intensely studying and reading about angry husbands and angry outbursts/anger management. There is a lot of really good info out there on the web... I am kind of shocked I was in denial for so long.

The Dr. Harley "radio links" aren't work in MelodyLane's thread, so I haven't listened to them (out of date?). I'll have to learn a little more about trying to find them in the archives, but by doing a search for "anger" and "angry" I have learned tons.

I volunteered myself to leave without DW asking me to do so. It was an interesting psychological turning-point, honestly. I am been doing a lot of thinking about things I never had before, and have had some very interesting things revealed to me.

Much love to all the guys and gals in our church. If I hadn't been such a fool I would have sought them out and asked for guidance and support before things ever got this bad. Also much to Steve G., who gave this advice to me (and has affected me more than many other things I have read lately):


That really meant a lot to me! Thanks again, Steve!

I will if I need to. I am sure my wife would be fine with that.



Yes, I will! Thanks! Spent a little time with SD last night and complimented her on her cartwheels; she responded by wanting to show me more :-) I have high hopes as long as I am acting as I should be and saying the things I should have been.

What have you learned?

Ernie, do you have the book His Needs, Her Needs For Parents? There is a section in there on blended families. Dr. Harley recommends that a stepparent NEVER discipline. As your friend Steve suggested, it is far better to be the source of good things to the child.

I'm not sure why you can't hear the radio show. The links are not obsolete. Please try a different computer, a different web browser, a phone, until you find something that can play those links. That information is vital.

You need to get a biofeedback meter as Dr. Harley describes here and learn to relax when you feel frustrated:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8122_neg.html

Here is how POJA works when it comes to parenting:
First the two of you negotiate the rules that you will enthusiastically agree to.
Second you negotiate how you are going to enforce them.

In the special case of stepfamilies, Dr. Harley says that even if both husband and wife are enthusiastic about a stepparent disciplining, it is still not going to work out well.

Let me add this: as long as you allow ANY angry outbursts in your life, you are not going to be fit as a parent. You are extraordinarily dangerous for this little girl. When you have an angry outburst, you are temporarily insane. Nobody, not even you, can predict what you will do.

When you feel angry with this little girl, you need to say and do NOTHING, because nothing you are thinking of doing or saying is going to help the problem. It is only going to make the problem worse, Ernie. Anger is not a parenting tool - when does it ever help, in the complicated field of parenting, to be insane for a little while? Is that ever a good idea?

Get those radio show links working so you can hear what Dr. Harley has to say. You need it!

That would take a lot of space to answer completely. I think the biggest thing has been my acknowledgement of having anger issues that need to be dealt with, because I have been in denial that I had a problem for a VERY long time. There is a feeling of freedom that has come from acknowledging that I have a problem.... kind of like "the secret is out" and I don't have to try to conceal it anymore - - Now it can be dealt with, instead of holding it down and denying it.

Another thing that I have realized is just how backwards my whole thought process has been with concern to the kids. God Bless Steve G. and his wife Susan, they have really been a huge help to me lately. Steve had already gone through the things I am experiencing, and he gave me really good advice and a whole new and fresh perspective about being a successful step-parent in a blended family. His words have the been the most helpful to me because he has overcome his weaknesses and has shown how to be the example that God, his wife, and his kids expect him to be.

From the articles you have read and the shows you have listened to, what have you learned about dealing with anger? How do you eliminate angry outbursts?

I do not want you to think I am ignoring your question. I will be responding with more detail. I would like to type out about 1,000 words (or more), and I will in the next day or so.

For the time being, I read a LOT of very interesting things about anger, and realized I had absolutely no idea how true they were for me, and much my thoughts of "imaginary threats" were affecting my behavior.

web search for:'' pathwaytohappiness anger '' <- This has been most helpful to me, and I have been taking the time to read through these.

http://www.pathwaytohappiness.com/anger/cause-anger.htm
<- This just about described me to a "T".... I was very surprised to see just how similar I was to this character:


http://www.pathwaytohappiness.com/anger/anger-management.htm

http://www.pathwaytohappiness.com/anger/understanding-anger.htm

http://www.pathwaytohappiness.com/core_belief_inventory.htm

http://www.pathwaytohappiness.com/journal/overcoming-anger/


This was also a good starting point: http://www.wikihow.com/Restrain-Yourself-from-an-Outburst (The first I had read)

Ernie, have you been able to get those radio shows working?

I went through 2-3 different anger management programs. I used Dr. Harley's material on anger management as my "guide" to sift the wheat from the chaff - some anger management material is pretty good, and some is ineffective. Before Dr. Harley did Marriage Builders, he ran a very large chain of mental health clinics, and often did anger management counseling. He even worked (successfully) on several occasions with violent prison inmates who were due to be released back into society and needed to get a job and couldn't keep it if they had even one angry outburst.

On top of that, he overcame anger himself many years ago and brings that experience to bear in his explanations. And he very much makes the case that anger especially in marriage is a disaster.

The daily radio show has been a fantastic resource for me. Get yourself plugged in and "sit in class" with the Dr. every weekday.

Hi Ernie, welcome to mb. I know I'm chiming in late, I just got back from holidays.

I agree with the other posters here on their suggestion to take some anger management. I myself took some .. Also I got myself a bio feedback device called the GSR2. It was very helpful for me in my process of learning to control my anxiety. You see.. Its really not "anger" per say that's causing you to react emotionaly. Its that anxiety has taken over your response. When your anxiety kicks in it creates a fight,flight, or freeze response to whatever the situation is that's is unfolding and your neuropathways are used to coping with the anxiety in a certain way. The GSR2 tool helps you learn to control the anxiety response. It shows you your ramp up before you even notice it yourself.

For example.. I would be sitting there focusing on the tone the device makes practicing controlling the pitch of the sound and trying to make the tone deeper sounding (high pitch is anxiety going up and as you grasp control the tone begins to move to a deeper sound) my wife would come up to me and say a word like "christmas" .. And that's all it took.. And I would lose my concentration and a bit of anxiety kicks in and up the pitch goes before I even realized it effected me. I would take a deep breath and (like the matrix) free my mind and regain control of the sound of the GSR2. Its not easy.. And takes practice. Once I could get the pitch at a certain sensitivity level I nudge up the sensitivity and start over at the new level. I would even fall asleep trying to control the thing. Its much easier now that I can recognize the anxiety before it gets overwhelming.

So when you get "angry" according to your wifes perspective that is your anxiety kicking in and your brain responds the easiest way it knows how... With an AO. Of course it feels good to relieve that tension but its the wrong approach. No one deserves to be the brunt of someones AO ... And everyone deserves to be treated with kindness and respect and if your wife or SD do or say something that triggers your anxiety. You should tell them "hey what you just said or did is giving me anxiety". That's easier to deal with than your emotional reaction. No one wants to be the cause of anxiety. If your anxiety contonues to rise... Take a walk.. Once adrenaline enters your blood stream it takes 15mins + to get your mind back to rational thinking.

You can repgrogram your responses, it takes a bit of time and you will slip up. Just appoligize, own your anxiety/anger and do better next time... The GSR2 helps you learn to recognize it sooner... Before it tips you over the edge. As for your wifes panic episodes and shaking... Same thing her anxiety is giving her a flight or freeze response (and in you its fight). You can lead your home back to a harmonous state by being the rock for your house... As god intended us husbands to be for our homes.

**edit**

I will be praying for you and your family. Anxiety is a major problem in society today and it comes in all sorts of different ways. You get cold hands... Shake.. Lose your cognitive thinking ability, lose your appetite, get sick.. Become violent, yell, even hurt yourself. Sometimes you can't remember a thing after your head clears.

I pray you learn self control and set the example for everyone in your home even if they are not controlling themselves well. If you feel "anger" /anxiety rise in you its time to go for a walk... Also excercise relieves anxiety somewhat and releases endorphines. Getting rid of those AO's , and controlling your anxiety should be your number one goal. In between get lots of UA time with your wife (dancing, movies, working out together, walks etc).. And find something to relate to your SD with and create a positive atmosphere with her so she sees you in a better light. For me.. I take my DD15 hunting.. We used to butt heads but she's come around now that my calm emotional state pretty much sets the bar for everyone else. From my experience if everyone else in my family is out of control as long as I don't let myself get out of control they all come down to my level and calm down now after a short period as I don't let their emotional state cause me anxiety. (Sorry for rambling)

You can do it... With god we can do anything.

MNG

Thank you - I need it.

Really, really, really need it.

My heart is just shattered into a million pieces right now. It's pounding out of my chest, it feels like it is dying.

My wife is so incredibly nice and affectionate to me, if you were in my shoes, and living my life you would think there was nothing wrong right now between us. Especially in the last 24 hours, she has just been so incredibly awesome towards me. She massaged me (in such a loving way) to sleep last night, and even again when I got up for work.

I am just so completely broken by the things she has typed.
I can't handle the 180 degree switch from absolute love towards me, to the about-face typed replies about how much she hates me. It's too much to handle, because the signals and the incredible affection don't match up the typed words. I'm very tortured right now.

OK.... I have a personal philosophy about not getting on public forums and saying bad things about my spouse - ever.

I think doing that leads into "he said - she said" type arguments that are immature and not helpful. I don't think it is a healthy way to try to solve marital issues.

The problem I am having right now is the immense and incredible amount of dishonesty from my wife about how things are happening in our marriage and in our home.... and right now, it is scaring the living daylights out of me.

The life I actually am living and the life that I am reading about from her typed responses are at times 180 degree opposites, as well as exaggerations about how events occurred.

I WANT this marriage to work - from my observations at home, I am CONVINCED (without a doubt) that my wife loves me and wants the best for us in our marriage as well. She showers me with affection, then an hour later types out: "just honestly makes me want to pack my bags and leave". The mix of opposite signals is destroying me.

I am pouring nearly everything I have got into making her happy, fulfilling her requests, taking her on dates, giving her affection - - - I am Really seriously genuinely trying to make her happy. She responds directly to me that I am succeeding.

So, now what?

Only you control how she feels about you, Ernie. What are you going to do to change that?

Ernie, my friend, as one angry man to another:

GET A GRIP.

Your anger has practically destroyed your wife. You have abused her for years.

How about you show some compassion and focus on her hurt right now instead of going on about how much she hurts you? All of this is really just a tool on your part to try to control her. I know, because I did it!

IF you follow through on the suggestions here, you can have a happy and fulfilling marriage. If you ask your wife to settle for less, though, you are basically showing a real lack of remorse for how you have treated her - indicating that you haven't repented, and aren't safe for her.

It's not a 180 degree switch, Ernie - she has been "nice" to you for years by concealing her true feelings. You are the cause of those feelings. NOW, she is telling you the truth - your account in her love bank is BANKRUPT. You can refill it - but not by going on and on about how sad you are and how you wish it was different.

If you want things to change, Ernie, YOU have to change.

Ernie, please just stick to one thread, so we can see your whole situation at once and give you the best advice possible.

Ernie - don't punish your wife's honesty, or you will lose this valuable source of information about her feelings. You need this information in order to be able to make course corrections.

I am changing. The level of effort I have been putting into changing (in such a short period of time) for the good/better has been exemplary, almost super-human at times.

Please believe me when I say I have placed an incredible amount of importance on being a better man, husband and father.

However, you should have actually said "You have abused each other for years". That would be an accurate statement.

I wouldn't be feeling abused and "love bustered" if I there weren't also abuse towards me from my wife as well. ;'-(

Ernie this is just dreadful.

Your wife is making a COMPLAINT.

I dont see any mention of your response to her very important complaints. You dont talk about what is to be done at all.

You dont sound like someone who is glad to receive complaints from your wife.

All you are doing is deflecting and dismissing her complaints.

No one is going to help you do that here.

If you have a complaint about her, please deal with it AFTER you have dealt with hers regarding you.

Can you please welcome her complaints like a loving husband?

I can't - and won't -punish her for her honesty.

I feel horribly betrayed by her dishonestly. Maybe you should come live with us a while so you can see both sides of the coin.

Four hours after her last post - she wakes me up by snuggling close to me in bed, wraps her whole body around me, showering me with kisses, and even gives me an erotic massage. What an amazing way to start the day! I was on cloud nine ...... until the wrecking ball landed on me.

I will continue to do the best I can do.

Her feelings are not dishonest. To say that they are is very disrespectful of you.

The things that she says are happening in your marriage are very real to her. Do not make the mistake of dismissing them. Listen, and take action.

You need to be scared right now, because if you stay on the path you're on you're going to lose your wife.

Are you going to do what it takes to keep her?

Again, you are disrespectfully judging her.
Are you going to change that?
Are you going to start listening to her?

She is doing her part to make recovery possible. She is obviously doing it well if you feel loved.

She is being honest about her feelings for you. Her lovebank is deep in the red.
YOU control how she feels. She feels this way because of your years of abuse. It's not going to change overnight -- it will take diligent action on your part.
You can roll around in self-pity, or you can do what it takes to change her feelings.

So, you're onboard with following MB and giving her a romantic marriage?

So your complaint is that she is PLEASANT and loving before she makes her complaints?

That makes no sense.

Complaints are not a 'wrecking ball' - they are things to be lovingly received and acted upon.

You can do better, though.

Start investing your time in this:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi4200_radio.html

Well, of course, Ernie. I know this without you even saying it, because Dr. Harley says that anyone in an abusive relationship will usually tend to become abusive themselves. It was true in my marriage, so I know it from experience as well as from Dr. Harley's expertise.

It sounds like your wife is willing to follow this program here and learn to eliminate this abuse. Are you? If so, part of the program is learning to be open to her complaints.

This big emotional thing you are doing - where you fall to pieces when she is honest and don't indicate you are going to take any action to address her complaint - that would be punishment to anybody.

Ernie78,

Don't try and understand why your wife does things. Just realize she feels certain ways. My wife likes sex. Even when we didn't like each other much and were constantly fightin, we were still having sex. I made the mistake of confusing sex and happines. She explained that she liked sex and I was her husband.

So just because she is cuddling and kissing does not mean she isn't hurt by you.

Note to those involved: I am not not upset - just very, very sad.


I can understand that and relate.

I was wrong in believing I was meeting her EN on a regular basis. She hadn't relayed anything to me recently that made me think I wasn't doing that.

I need to get over feeling hurt right now; it's a difficult thing to work my way out of and it generally doesn't come to people naturally.

I want to address her complaints, I just don't feel like I am getting the info from her I need to do that.

Ernie, here's an important principle: you should ask yourself regularly if you are doing the suggested things to meet her emotional needs.

Are you spending at least fifteen hours a week together giving her your undivided attention?

Are you establishing an environment of affection, being affectionate to her daily and contacting her throughout the day?

Are you integrating her into your life, inviting her into each "room" of your life?

Are you completely refraining from Love Busters such as selfish demands, disrespectful judgments, angry outbursts?

Here's some suggestions from Dr. Harley's son, Steve (also a marriage counselor):

How do you know if your spouse is "in love" with you?

Yes, we get that. Anyway, we hope you do it FAST, because the VICTIM of your abuse here, your wife, needs your help.

Are you going to listen to this radio show?

I WANT that information, but so seldom receive it. I just really wish she had said something to me about the way she was feeling, that's all...... I feel betrayed by her when I have to find out her true feelings from here, and not directly from her. I think you can understand that.

I have NOT been doing that.
When things appear to be going well, I tend to "go with" the good feelings of all that is happening (well). I have a very difficult time asking if anything is wrong, when from the signals I am getting everything is fine. I work best when the problem is presented to me - I don't go looking for problems if it appears there are no problems.


I think we are pretty close - Maybe 10-12?



Oh, yes! Absolutely! And she reciprocates very positively :-)


When she takes an interest I do - - If she appears to be not interested in what I am thinking and feeling, then I don't push her to take an interest.



Yes, except for Monday night. I was stressed about work and about stepson leaving sleeping bags and blankets out on the rain on the dirt. I did not AO, but I wasn't happy.


OK - - - They radio links don't work at work. I will have to try to get access from the computer at home. I usually get distracted by being so happy to see everyone when I get home (HUGS!) that I forget to do stuff like this.

That's not a radio link!

And Ernie - you can't afford to skip the vital education you need. Figure out how to not forget! Suggestion: read your entire thread daily, for awhile, and keep a todo list.

Yes, it would have been nice, but she didn't do that. Fortunately, though, she's telling you NOW! You need to focus on the problems now, sooner rather than later.


Yes, I definitely understand that. I understand it feels terrible, and I also understand that if we let you wallow in it, it will distract you from the work that you need to do.

If you can't hold it together well enough to do what you need to do to save your marriage, you should probably see your doctor about prescribing some antidepressants for the short term.

Ernie, just to give you some productive feedback, the scene she describes below was a massive hit to your love bank. While it may be disappointing to read that she hates you, this is invaluable information that can help you turn this around.


I think she feels that the steps in MB are her only hope (and they really are - if you know of another way please tell us all). Your refusal to do them along with the badgering above upsets her terribly.

So, any progress you make in filling her love bank is wiped out with a single lovebuster. The fact that she is not being honest with you tells me she doesn't safe doing so. And that is very typical when there is an anger problem in marriage. This is why fixing the angr problem has to be first on the list.

That is why I keep pointing you to the radio show. Dr. Harley is an expert at helping men figure out what that information is when their wife is so withdrawn she won't talk about it.

And if you've read Dr. Harley's Basic Concepts, you know about the state of mind of withdrawal in marriage - where a spouse does not want their emotional needs met. In that state of mind, they won't talk about it!

Suggestion: review the Basic Concepts daily for awhile. Other suggestion: don't miss the radio show any more. It's every week day. You can listen it to it any time day or night because the show repeats.

Oh, by the way, I also gave you a cheat sheet. When something's wrong in your marriage and your wife won't talk about it, it's usually one of these things that I wrote above:


Ernie, if you're not doing those things, there's no reason to expect that your wife will be in love with you.

Yes, Ernie - quit telling your wife what you think she "should" do - that's disrespectful and it withdraws love units from your account in your wife's love bank. You can't afford that right now since your account is bankrupt.

Ernie, if you're not doing those things, there's no reason to expect that your wife will be in love with you.[/quote]

But what does he do when she LB's him in the process?

Not sure exactly what this means - the family should spend 15 hours together. FC is a need that typically the husband meets for the wife.

Ernie, quit cutting corners with Dr. Harley's suggestions, or you are going to have an unhappy wife. (Who may feel that she has to hide that unhappiness from you.)


Okay - my suggestion was for you to ASK YOURSELF. In other words, take a little pride in your work as a husband and take responsibility for yourself and look at yourself to see if you are doing a good job. My suggestion was not ask her (although that's a good idea), my suggestion was not to tell me - my suggestion is for you to TAKE OWNERSHIP of these things instead of constantly making excuses why you can't.


That's not enough. If you cut this corner, your wife will not be in love with you. Dr. Harley says there seems to be something magical about that fifteenth hour - couples who don't get it, aren't happy.

Have you read this page? (it's an article, not a radio show, so please don't again give me the excuse that you can't click it at work)
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3350_attn.html


I put a strikethrough through your excuse.

The important thing is this: out of four things that have to be happening if you want your wife to be happy, two of them are not happening.

If you will take ownership of this and start ensuring that these things happen, you won't have to worry about your wife surprising you any more.

By the way ... READ THIS:

I apologize - I wrongly thought it was without actually clicking on it. I have tried the audio links before, and they are blocked by the I.T. dept.

OH - Update: The reason I stated I am scared of my wife right now is because of the unpredictability I am receiving/perceiving. Especially since she has been so amazingly affectionate lately, I had no idea what she was truly thinking. It's the uncertainty of not knowing the truth that has me so frightened. I feel "lulled" into a false sense of security. If I knew what was really going on, I wouldn't feel like this.

That is a good idea. I will try hard to not forget to come back and check in.

Are you working this program or not? I would think that if you have decided to use Marriage Builders to save your marriage, you would be checking in frequently.

Make a written todo list!

Yes, I do.
I wish I had known earlier.
I tend to forget things might be going wrong when things feel like they are going right. I am hope Elaina will be wanting to talk through some of these topics tonight.

Thank you for that. I can see the value in the information, now I need to see if we can work out some dialogue to get back to recovery mode.



I had felt for a long time that I was being "beaten over the head" with Marriage Builders - Elaina was very offensive to me with the information at many times, using the information as a blame tactic to make me feel it was all my fault we were having trouble and that if I didn't submit to Dr. Harley's teachings (and him personally) then I was an outright fool.

That placed me on the defensive. It is difficult to be open to new ideas if you are told you are an idiot for not accepting the beliefs of another. Just like this:
I was made to feel stupid by Elaina for having an opinion that I would like to know more about MB and needed time to investigate it more... but I was just having MB rammed at me forcefully and I resented her for that. I, too - felt very disrespected that I wasn't allowed to look into the program first, and was expected to blindly jump in. This has created a psychological block that has been difficult to overcome to be willing to accept ideas that were once forced upon (Selfish Demand?) me instead of allowing me to look into it myself.


I have made tremendous progress in eliminating AO's but it will still take time to earn her trust.

Yes, I am familiar with this concept. I want to make sure the state of withdrawl get eliminated as quickly as possible. We need to be able to talk in order to work things out.


OK, I will! :-)



OK, I will do that as well.


The cheat sheet is the 4 items you listed that I am only doing two of the four? OK, I will make them a primary focus.

Have you been diagnosed with an actual psychological block?

Dr. Harley studied couples that had good marriages and extracted out the factors that were common to them, to create his program.

Meanwhile, Elena had a horrible marriage in which you abused her.

If you would like to make it up to her, here is how to have a good marriage with her, Dr. Harley or not.

If you balk at that all the time, I don't think anyone would blame her for leaving you. In fact, I would encourage her to do so - women have a lot LESS stamina than men for putting up with a bad marriage. Years of abuse for women in marriage result in genuine psychological and physical problems - post traumatic stress disorder, compromised immune systems.

I am wondering what the answer to this is, as well. It took inappropriate actions from both of us to get where we are. I would like to know what can help me keep motivated to work things out while I am in the process of being hurt. The blame does not fall on my shoulders only.

Withdrawal is like the snails that Dr. Harley says he used to poke when he was a boy. When he would poke them, they would pull their heads back into their shells. When they came back out, if he poked them again, they would draw back in and stay their longer. And even longer the next time. And so on.

Don't poke the snail!

Every time you make a demand, disrespectful judgment, or angry outburst, you put her into withdrawal.

You can't hurry her out of withdrawal. It's an emotional and non-rational thing. What you have to do is keep monitoring yourself for those four things I mentioned (did you copy down that list?) so that when she does come out, you don't send her back.

Warning: reading the basic concepts, you'll see the three states of mind in marriage are Withdrawal, Conflict, and Intimacy. After withdrawal, she will be in conflict. She will probably come out swinging. Don't be surprised if she messes up and breaks some rules and makes some demands, disrespectful judgments, or angry outbursts of her own. Don't respond with MORE demands, disrespect, or anger, or you will send her right back into withdrawal. Don't fall apart emotionally if she does. Just stay cool and keep checking that you are doing those four things and start incorporating the feedback she is providing you.

See your doctor about antidepressants.

You make it sound like it's so easy to do. If it were so easy to do, I would not be in the position I am in right now. When you are in the bottom of a deep pit, clawing your way to the top doesn't happen in an instant. It takes a lot of work. It doesn't help when so many other things are happening in my life.

Wow, Y'all can type waaaaayyyyyy faster than I can..... let me get caught up.

Markos is telling you to do what he himself had to do.
It's not easy. We all know that.
But the sooner you stop making excuses and start taking ownership, the sooner you will be in recovery.

What is the point of arguing about how hard or easy it is? You have to do it if you want your marriage to succeed.

I can't think of anything in the world to be gained from you trying to persuade me of how hard this is. Since I've saved my own marriage from similar circumstances, I'm actually pretty aware of how difficult it is to make these changes!

Yes, Sir, Drill Sargent! (that is a compliment, BTW)
I can commit to doing this!

Yes, it's hard, but if you whine all the time instead of actually buckling down and doing the work, you are not safe for your wife to be married to, Ernie.

Then be here every day, and listen to the show every day. Start working through Love Busters with your wife, and start exchanging the weekly worksheets that book describes (there's a workbook if you need a guide as to what those should look like).

Get that todo list made. Put all the above on it.

No - - - but I have yet to find anyone who enjoys getting insulted, or of being disrespected for having an opinion.

I believe marriage is supposed to be a team effort, not where one of you is is ramming stuff down the other's throat against their will. <- that is just not conducive to creating positive change in a marriage.


Hmmm...perhaps it wasn't always me doing the abuse?

OK, that is a good warning.

I have had to fight "defensive tendencies" all my life. Really, NO ONE enjoys getting attacked - especially by their spouse. If you are a Christian man, please pray for my patience to be able to always handle that type of situation. It sounds a lot like going through a root canal with no anesthesia!!!

Exactly! That's why Elena needs you to do this stuff and quit balking about how hard it is! That's exactly what she needs from you - a team effort instead of an angry man ramming stuff down her throat.


I already mentioned that Dr. Harley's told us all that in abusive marriages the abuse is usually on both sides. We already know that. No sense bringing it up again and again, Ernie. It's just a common tactic we men use here to NOT DO THE WORK.

Ernie there is no sense in your wife learning how to eliminate her demands, disrespect, and anger, if you aren't completely totally 100% committed to doing so yourself. It would be a waste of time for her. Your abusive behavior is not caused by her abusive behavior. As long as you are claiming that this is all just Dr. Harley's opinion, or whining about how your wife commits love busters too, etc., it's all just excuses to not do the work and it would be unsafe for her to invest much more effort in your marriage.

By the way, looking through Dr. Harley's Q&A columns, I just saw this:


Here's the rest:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5067b_qa.html

Don't leave those Q&A columns unread, btw. You have a lot of work to do!

Yes, we see the defensive tendencies in you very clearly, I'm afraid. They aren't attractive - and we're here to help you eliminate them, even when your wife slips up and attacks you. But first you've got to quit using them as an excuse.

I will absolutely pray for you, Ernie, and I have already been doing so. But I am praying for Elena's safety. She needs you to get out of the defensiveness, the excuses, the corner-cutting attitudes, ASAP. You should view her like somebody you have robbed or injured - you have a debt to repay. Think more about HER than yourself. If you are a Christian man, this principle should sound familiar.

So, 24 hours from now, you will have listened to the Marriage Builders Radio show at least once, right?

We have this workbook; ironically I photocopied a bunch of pages out of it the last several days for us to go through. When I get home I am in such a hurry to see everyone, I forgot the packet in my truck :-(

I will photocopy all the lovebusters pages - - it that the BEST first step? (for us to work on those?)

If not, let me know.





You do mean these 4 items, correct?

No, I am on board with this. I can be 100% committed to it.


No, dishonesty was the main reason, it's been going on for years and I have always had a hard time talking to her about how it hurts me so much. We have really been dishonest with each other about a lot of things since the beginning.


No sir - I will do the work.

I do need to ask: What can I do/use to keep the ball rolling? On those days when I feel like all hope is lost, what's the next step to keep the momentum up?

Thanks for that.

Yes, i DO have a lot of work to do!

Her dishonesty is not the cause of your abusive behavior.
She is not the cause of your anger or disrespectful judgements.
You and you alone are responsible for those. You cannot stop your anger until you take responsibility for it and stop blaming her.

Please read the chapters on Angry Outbursts and Disrespectful Judgements in "Lovebusters."

In fact, YOUR anger and disrespect greatly contributes to her being dishonest. You have created an environment that discourages honesty.

Very few people will be honest when they fear abuse.
You want honesty? Make it safe for her to be honest. This will take time and a lot of hard work on your part.

You know, I can understand how y'all might think I might be angry today, but I haven't actually been angry once all day. It's impossible to determine this when you can't hear a person's voice.(a serious flaw in the message board world)

It's actually been several days since I was "upset" in an angry-sort-of way, but I kept my cool. (I have been much more upset about other goings-on the last few days, but not in an angry way.)

I have been very sad at times today, but I am feeling pretty chipper right now.

I need to leave work soon (was not a very productive day here I'm afraid)- Do y'all have any last words of advice before I head home? I printed off pages 13-17 (Commitment form) as well as pages 37-84 of the "5 Steps to R.L." workbook. (double copies where needed).

I'll listen to all the radio links tonight that Marcos posted, and I'll print off the stuff I need to read before I head out.

How do I approach my wife when I get home?

Print out T he love busters questionaire

OK, got both his and hers printing now!

How about the other questions I had asked earlier? Anyone?

It's going to take a lot longer than just "several days."
Even if it's true that you haven't been angry for several days, and I'll believe you on that, you have already created the environment that discourages honesty by your PAST angry outbursts.
And the disrespectful judgements are still going on, and have been evident today.

Ernie, we are glad that you are making an effort.
It is obvious that you did not go into this relationship withe the current result in mind.

What seems difficult for you at this time, is to see and feel how your way of relating to your wife has damaged her. It is very good that you have succeeded not to have angry outbursts for a few days.
Now think about it. If you had a bulldog, who would bite you every day, would you feel safe with the dog if it hadn't bitten a few days in a row?

It is a start, but as we say here, trust comes on foot, but it goes on horseback!
It will take time and continued effort to gain her trust back. At thd same time, you have to start by being the father and husband your family deserves.
You cannot wait for them to be perfect. Even if they spit in your face so to speak, you should be able to contain yourself.

you can only control you and become the man your wife fell in love with.

Yeah, I was fine up until the good blankets were left on the ground out in the woods. I didn't get angry but I wasn't happy about it either. Before that it has been much longer than "several days".


Yes, I realize that. I know a regain in trust comes slow.

How about taking a stab at some of the questions I posted earlier? They are important to me to have answered or I would not have asked them. Thanks!

Thank you, Happy Heart.

Your wife is the judge of that.

OK, heading home. I will check in later!

And after she has filled out tge love busters questionaire, read it carefully. Di not argue with her as to what she considers love busting. If it bothers her, stop dojng it. Even if you would not feel it was disrespectful. Dr Harley encourages couples to stop doing the things that irritate the spouse. Even in small things like flossing yiur teeth, so do not take offense.

If you feel unjustly judged after reading the questionaire, refrain from talking to her about it. Just think about it and invent different ways to act.

This goes for the other love busters as well.

"I do need to ask: What can I do/use to keep the ball rolling? On those days when I feel like all hope is lost, what's the next step to keep the momentum up?"

I would really like to know the answer to this as well.

Answer to this question: depression is a situation where you cannot see a solution to your problems. If you are feeling like all hope is lost, that is exactly how you are feeling. You are feeling depressed.

Antidepressants are medications that help with this condition. They help even out the emotional highs and lows and help keep you thinking rationally. They enable you to see the solutions to your problems that you are missing.

If you are feeling like all hope is lost - see your doctor and ask him to prescribe antidepressants for you short term. Tell your doctor you are depressed about your marriage and having trouble making things work and need a little help keeping yourself on an even keel while you do what needs to be done to turn your marriage around. This is exactly what I did. I was on antidepressants for about three months, and it was just the thing to keep my momentum going when I felt all hope was lost. Worked perfectly.

It may take a couple of back and forths with your doctor to get the right dosage and possibly the right medication. It did not in my case.

Depression prevents you from seeing solutions to your problems. Even when people present the solution to your problem you dismiss it out of hand, throw up your hands, and proclaim that there are no solutions and the situation is hopeless. But a typical outside observer can see that there is a solution and the situation is not hopeless.

For most of the problems men report on this site, the solution is found in Dr. Harley's Basic Concepts in the model of the Love Bank - typically the main problem is that the husband's wife is not in love with him. The solution is for him to learn to make massive love bank deposits every single day for the rest of his life and to completely avoid love bank withdrawals. Usually for most of us guys these love bank withdrawals are very instinctive - especially if we are very emotional guys. (I AM!!!) They come like second nature and so we do them all the time and we DON'T EVEN KNOW that we are being demanding, disrespectful, or angry. We think we are doing everything right and think there is something wrong with our wife because she is in the state of withdrawal and won't communicate with us, and we are pretty sure we didn't do anything to cause it and she is just weird or unreasonable.

You have got to learn to recognize your own love busters, and you may have to do it without any feedback from your wife so you may need help here or from the Marriage Builders coaching center learning to identify them. And you may have to do all of this while your wife is completely unmotivated to eliminate her own love busters - frequently she won't see any point to doing that because of yours. That can be very unmotivating. Get the antidepressants and get the help you need to be trained and coached to fill your wife's love bank, and then you will never have this problem again for the rest of your life.

Listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show every single day. Dr. Harley will help keep you motivated and will also help educate you on the millions of things you are missing. He did for me and now my wife who previously couldn't talk to me without sounding like she wished I were gone from her life forever is sitting here acting affectionate to me and is in love with me and wouldn't do anything in the world to hurt me.

Thankfully, I won't need them. I snap out of a funk pretty quickly. Elaina is an amazing woman and despite me having hurt her is very sweet and supportive of me working on being the best husband I can be.

Okay then the answer to the question you asked ("On those days when I feel like all hope is lost, what's the next step to keep the momentum up?") is snap out of your funk quickly, and protect your wife from demands, disrespect, and anger while you are in it.

If you fail to protect your wife from demands, disrespect, or anger, then please go back and actually read what I wrote.

Did you listen to the radio show, yet?

No, not yet. I have read H.T.O.a.A.M., Basics, Policy of Undv Att.

Daily update:
Got home around 6, just enough time to hug everybody and see DW out the door with DS on his way to Wed youth group (hugs and kisses). Watched over 8yo SD and her friend while I fed, then played with my baby girl while watching the other two. DW came back at 7, then we all visited and gutted pumpkins until 8pm when DW left to go get DS. I washed dishes for 20 minutes; my back muscles were in fierce levels of pain from being tense all day (and my feet were KILLING me), so I went to lie down for a spell and visited with baby girl. DW came home around 8:45ish and we all had a good time carving jack-o-lanterns. Lots of fun, laughter and playing involved on all parties.

8y.o. SD is really warming up to me since starting this thread, I�m VERY happy to see a lot of improvement in that area. She is the type that needs people to bring attention to her instead of her seeking it out from them, so I have been working on improving in that area. Not much time left for DW and I to have a lot of one-on-one, but what we did was extremely pleasant and encouraging, no barriers to affection which is a huge plus. More to come; Thanks for the prayers!

I will keep praying, Ernie. Keep reading, start listening, and put it all into practice.

It will be hard when you become emotional. You are going to need to give yourself a LOT of education to nourish your logical side so that logic will overcome your emotions when you become emotional. Otherwise you will make love bank withdrawals instead of deposits - and you can't afford any more withdrawals.

Listen to that radio show! If you sign up for the archives you can download MP3s and take them into work. And/or listen on the way.

I will post my replies only in this thread.

Quick update: Stepdaughter has been to a mental health hospital because she has borderline disorder; or at least what is considered for a child to have. Elaina has told me her ex husband has been diagnosed by three doctors as having borderline disorder. It is assumed to be genetic in 8 year old stepdaughter. If you read about the disorder, you will have some idea of what it is like to be a stepfather in this situation to a child like that, but you will never know the true suffering and agony unless you are living in that situation.


I know this is a week old... a few nights ago we stayed up until 2 AM and had a very nice talk with RH and Elaina was very appreciative afterwards. I DESIRE GREATLY to have these talks, but they seldom happen before 11PM and that is very hard on me with my "work schedule/body clock" interfering with my difficulty in staying awake.


I do NOT hate her at all, that is a lie. I will freely admit that living with her is extremely difficult. This is a girl that says nothing nice.... ever. I really do mean never. She is not even nice to Elaina, and that fact is VERY hard on her as well.


Hmmm... we discuss her at great length and very frequently, so I am very confused by this statement. She has been the main topic of discussion for hours on end, which really is not good UA time.




This has been true in the past, but in the present tense is not correct.



Having a daughter in a hospital an hour away is a stressful time for both of us. it is difficult to manufacture joy and happiness in times like that. The best I can muster is to be calm and caring, and that's all I can offer at those times. Romance isn't exactly on the radar, but caring for my wife in times of pain like that certainly is.



I was doing the best I could think to do at a time when I knew my wife was in pain.



My dear lovely wife, I will rejoice when the day comes you no longer have doubts of my love for you, and will rejoice even MORE greatly when you realize there is no cause for concern of my response to you :-)

I need help....

I have explained (gently) to my wife that when she speaks bad things about me to others - (any others, no matter who they are or where they are located) that it hurts me a LOT. Her words have great power, and it concerns me that she can hurtful about about the things she says at at times.

She seems to have understood what I was saying... yet she continues to not take my feelings in this matter into account. Her words cut me like a knife sometimes. What do I do?

Also... we have had a great number of events occur in our family, work, and our house these last few months that have cut into our UA time that have been completely unavoidable. I am feeling completely "tapped out"... I have already trimmed any "personal time for myself" down to near zero... What is next to do to find some UA time? Life circumstances have me feeling very "burned out" with little energy left to keep all the "irons in the fire" hot. We are also tapped out financially, with tons of medical bills and no way to pay them,.

....and yet your thread is titled "harsh, spiteful stepdaughter".

Seems like rules for thee but not for me.

That was quite a while ago... a lot of water under the bridge has flowed since then.

Try to give me the benefit of the doubt for now.

I am not familiar with your or your W's thread so I probably shouldn't be posting but...

Are you saying she is DJ'ing you in your communications with each other? What is she saying that's DJ?

You may not like what her opinions and thoughts are on things but as long as she's not DJ'ing you she should be able to express what she's feeling/thinking. I don't think "that hurt me" is specific enough. People could use that phrase on just about anything they don't want/like to hear.

And I hope this isn't about things she is posting about here. If she is being disrespectful, the other posters will/should call her out on it and it will actually help your M.

Yes, the things that are said about me CAN BE very big DJ's.

I guess I should say that "Words of Encouragement" are in my top 5 emotional needs...

...and then the opposite is VERY true; words spoken about me that are "unkind or disrespectful" are a "love buster" (a big one) to me when they are "embellished" truths, or even outright fallacies. I think most people are pretty sensitive about libel/slander, and I am no exception.

Let me clarify that if the event being described is done truthfully and with an air of respectful constructive criticism, I can take it easily without being hurt. But when I am being described to others as someone that does not accurately fit the circumstance, I do feel hurt by what is being said of me. I just want honesty and tactfulness in the description, that is all.

Really......What I want MORE THAN ANYTHING is actually for my wife to come to me (her husband)FIRST and discuss things she has issues with - before discussing the issue with someone else (which can often be accompanied by an air of criticism) regardless of who they are or where they are located. That action "love busts" me a lot.

I really want radical honesty in our relationship, but what I receive, I feel is lacking to a great degree. I do desire to have a successful marriage where we work as a team -- and work out our issues as a team - - and no one is saying bad stuff about the other (EVER... to anyone). That is what I desire greatly.

I didn't ask that, Ernie. I asked you this:



What she posts about you here may be disrespectful (and as I stated, if that was true, most likely posters would call her out on that which would be a GOOD thing) but it is not a DJ.





A "word of encouragement" is not an emotional need. Do you mean you want more admiration? Complaining about her postings on MB is not going to make her want to admire you. I know you probably hate hearing that but I am being honest with you.

From an outsider's perspective, you are circumventing the unwritten rule that we have around here about not commenting on a spouse's thread with this post. If what she is writing is bothering you so much, then maybe you should stay off the thread or explain HERE what you feel is being misrepresented.

I understand that using POJA that if you are not enthusiastic about your W posting here, then she should maybe not do it anymore but that's not what I am hearing from you. What I am hearing you say is you want her to POST the way you WANT - which to me comes off as controlling and a selfish demand.

How do you react when she gives you a complaint?

I feel the biggest DJ are either: A) Jumping to a conclusion without hearing all the details first, which can have disastrous results, or: B) Inflating the issue to a level higher than it really should be, which takes it from the category of "not worthy of getting into conflict" into "now we have a conflict".


I hate getting into "he said/she said" situations.

What I don't like is something like this example:
Let's say we are having a picnic, and I have a hot dog on my plate. I see a kid throwing a sandal at another kid and in the process of quickly turning to tell the kid to "stop" and explaining to them that throwing things isn't proper behavior, my hotdog left my plate and landed on the table. When I hear about the story being told later, I was yelling and throwing food all over the place. (Maybe not to that extreme, but still...)

It also has happened with "good/fun" stories... where all of the sudden when the story is being retold, her part in the event has a greater impact, and my role in what occurred got downplayed, often to a level where anything I did was near insignificant in the retelling of the event (or if I was even mentioned having a part at all, her taking full credit for what happened). That is what I find very hurtful and disrespectful.

So, to answer you a little further, when we have communications with each other I feel that most of the time things are on the level. It's when she is telling stories or explaining situations to others where I feel she embellishes and exaggerates to the point where now it can/has become hurtful to me.



Well, I hope I explained it well enough that it more clear now what has been happening.
When I was driving from my work to my MIL's house yesterday, I was thinking about this thread, and the thought did occur to me that in order to exercise care in our marriage and prevent LB's from happening, maybe it is best we discuss first what the other is going to say about the other, no matter who it is communicated to. That will "head em' off at the pass" and prevent damaging words from getting out and causing a LB later on.

I would be totally POJA with that idea. It would also ensure I have become aware of any problems, questions or concerns from my wife first... so I can first be aware the problem even exists (I sometimes feel I am the last to know), and then be able to make actions and decisions to correct the problem before any number of other people are aware of it (before I have even heard of it). That is the level of honesty I desire in our marriage.

I do want there to be a level of communication where we can work on our marriage as a team first, and then (meaning after) seek the advice and help of others only if our first attempt doesn't get the desired result (is that a Dr Harley concept?).

I just need to be the first one to able to hear about whatever problem is happening, that's all I ask. Not heard second-hand from any family, not from unintended eavesdropping, not from any friends-of-friends, and not on here. Pick any of the above; they all hurt me. I want to be the first one she goes to with a concern.

I had to think about this a LONG time... because I so seldom hear an "obvious" complaint firsthand, I have to dig deep in my memories to try to recall how I do act when it occurs.

Complaints from W usually look like this:

The direct-to-me, yet "so-subtle-it-doesn't-sound-like-a-complaint-but-I-really-am" category - and it is not only the hardest to detect, but because it doesn't sound like a "genuine" complaint, it can go unnoticed or not taken very seriously by me.

These are the most damaging to me, because she feels like she is communicating effectively to me (and wants me to take action), yet the way she is communicating it doesn't give it the gravity it deserves, so it immediately ends up on the "back burner". When that happens the resentment is from her immediate.
[NOTE: I am relaying this from a recent discussion we had together; that is why I know this is what is going on]

She thinks she is doing an effective job at letting me know about things that concern her, when to me it barely sounds like it might resemble a "thoughtful request". What I hear is: "could you please take your keys off the table and put them by the door, we are getting ready to set the table".. to which I reply, "Oh, OK - I'm sorry" and go hang them up, but inside she can be thinking "How many times do I have to remind you how much it bothers me when you put your &!%$# keys on the table!!"

But I don't hear that, so until we discuss it later (looking back) and discussing how our actions really do affect each other differently, it doesn't get addressed.

Because the "too subtle"(because I didn't receive it) complaint didn't have its desired effect, now its viewed by her as me "ignoring her concerns and being disrespectful of her desires"... it's too late now - so she is going to keep it inside and brew on it, sometimes for weeks or months, and add it to the pile of the other things she has complained about (sometimes very subtly) and saw no desired action result from. After some time, the pile breaks through the retaining wall and causes a huge mess.

At those times, the onslaught feels like a full on assault, because at that moment I "can't or haven't done anything right for the last couple months" (that's me exaggerating; it is how I feel at those times) and every problem in our marriage is my fault because I never do anything she asks of me. And at this point, it's oftentimes all "new" news to me.... because I have LONNNNNG since forgotten all the little "subtle" complaints that really... really just didn't sound very serious at the time. Well, not enough to put any great weight on them.

I work in a place full of prior military folks where a steady stream of swear words at loud volume is NOT an angry outburst.... it's just how those people talk/communicate. They are probably NOT as angry as they seem they are; that is just how they talk after being in the military for 20 years.

Then when I come home, the phrase "please put your keys...." doesn't sound ANYTHING AT ALL like a complaint!

The contrast effect is SO EXTREME.... that it is extremely difficult to disseminate from someone at work who is cursing loudly (but not really complaining to you) and then listening to my wife say something so subtle that it doesn't even remotely sound like a complaint, (and sometimes doesn't sound like a complaint at all) ..... but it is my fault for not picking up on it, so I get punished by her for not detecting and acting on it.

So, to answer your question directly:
How do I react?
Sometimes by not noticing it even happened.

I deal most effectively with direct/serious concerns or complaints.

At those times, she has my full attention, like one particular "pet name" she hates and never wants to be called. She said directly: "I do not want your to ever call me xxxxx, I do not like that name at all".. and I NEVER HAVE. Why? Because it was direct, and I can "burn" stuff like that into my memory.

ernie, I only skimmed over your response - I don't have much time to post these days and I try to focus on the threads that need 911 type help.

I skimmed the last page of your W's page. As I suspected, your W's lb$ is very low, and I have two pieces of advice for you.

1) You are making a HUGE mistake making your W feel badly about her postings here. Your W and your M needs the help of the forum right now. Your efforts in an attempt to control the way she posts is coming off as a big lovebuster.

2) Instead of focussing on what your W should or should not be doing, I would put all of your efforts towards avoiding lovebusters.

Good luck.

Thanks. I do - and will - continue to work on eliminating my love busters.

This quote from Mr.Wondering summarizes EXACTLY how I feel:

That is what my desire is, as well. I want us to be a team.

This comes off as controlling and manipulative. If I feel that way, I can only imagine how your W feels.

If you keep this up, you are going to end up divorced.

Sorry to be harsh, but you are not getting it at all. I am frustrated in trying to talk to you in just a few posts. I can only imagine how hopeless your W must feel.

Surely you're not saying she needs to use swear words and a loud voice rather than politeness to get you to take her seriously? So now you know, when she says "could you please..." she is probably telling you a complaint, especially if you've heard it more than once.

Please explain your position.... I am unable to determine what information you are trying to present. Could you be more specific?

It took a long time to learn this... and it was only in the last couple of months that I did learn this from her, by her telling me this is what is going on... I wish I had known a lot earlier, it would have saved a WHOLE BUNCH of hurt on both of our parts.

There were no other women in my life prior to me getting married that complained in a such a soft manner, so I came into our marriage at age 38 not having ever seen any complaints from women that were NOT loud. I was just expecting my wife to be the same way since I had never seen anything different.

There is no hidden meaning or further information needed. I meant what I said literally. It's up to you to decide if you are going to listen or keep on demanding that your wife POJA w/you everything she is going to write about her feelings about you and this M.

Wow, Ernie. It sounds like you are totally confused as to what a disrespectful judgment is. When you decide how high an issue should rank and decide that your wife's ranking is "wrong," YOU are the one being disrespectful, Ernie. You are saying that she should just choose to feel different - that way you don't have to address her complaints.

You need to be here every day learning and working this program, Ernie. There's a radio show being broadcast every week day. There's other threads you should be reading and posting on to learn to recognize disrespect so you can stop doing it.

The problem is not that your wife is disrespectful. The problem is that you want to ignore/downgrade her complaints. That's the exact opposite of Marriage Builders.

There's no such thing as "not worthy of getting into conflict." Conflict is inevitable in marriage. Dr. Harley and Joyce have a conflict EVERY HOUR. Dr. Harley does not pressure Joyce to not bring things up. Instead they resolve their conflicts for a win-win every time, using the principles that they (and we) teach here.

Elaina, you need to plan for a separation until your husband is more serious about learning the basics here.

In a case like this where a spouse is abusive like Ernie, getting help (i.e., posting on this forum) is NOT subject to the POJA. Health and safety is the main exception Dr. Harley makes to the POJA, and that includes getting help in the case of abuse (demands, disrespect, and anger).

Elaina, I hope you are reading. You should probably continue posting here as well as look into getting help from a local women's shelter.

If your husband continues to punish you for the posts that you make here, email the moderators ***EDIT***

Agree x 100.

This level of manipulation & SDs -- trying to make it seem like they will be like MrW and MrsW, a MB success story, if she will "POJA" her posts w/him...and using MB terms against her (she's not meeting my need for admiration!) makes me wonder what else is happening in their M.

You're going to lose your wife if you keep going down this road you're on.

I hope Elaina takes the suggestion to separate seriously. That's how serious the way you've been treating her is, Ernie.

*sigh*

I am not some horrible abusive monster of a husband; I think you have me figured out all wrong. I am just a normal guy working on some typical marriage issues, and though my successes are not all achieved overnight - they are successes nonetheless. I am working hard on getting better at being successfully married.

I just don't understand why you are all so quick to tell my wife she should leave me all the time, you make it sounds like I am some horrible crazy person that belongs in prison instead.

Elaina told me last night the reason she doesn't leave me is because I *AM* improving and getting better all the time. As long as I strive to be a better husband, she's fine with working things out with me; That gives me a lot of encouragement.

SO, I offer to you this: Do you think I should still stay on this marriage builders forum, or go away quietly? I would like to think that by coming here I can still get some good advice and direction from y'all. If you don't think I should be here, then I guess I can leave.

I just sure am scratching my head sometimes wondering about the things you say to me, that's all.

Dr Harley says to build your life (job, house etc) around UA time.
The UA time MUST always have priority according to Dr Harley

We do have a special needs child at home, and that changes things a bit.... meaning it can be more difficult to get good quality time together. It's a struggle at times, that's for sure.

My friend had a girlfriend that used to watch a handicapped girl while her parents went on dates together.
The father was a doctor but the state paid all of her care bills.

Can you qualify for a home health worker?

Are angry outbursts and disrespectful judgements abuse?

I'm not sure what good the advice will do if you don't act on it. You need to be learning how to recognize and eliminate disrespect rather than arguing that you are really not such a bad guy. My suggestion to you above was to start reading other threads and looking at it - you'll find this is one of the worst problems most husbands have. I would also strongly suggest listening to Dr. Harley daily.

This can't be a thing you are perpetually working on and struggle with. You have to actually succeed at this.

You MUST stop punishing your wife for what she says here. Otherwise you make it impossible for your marriage to get help.

Don't put any of your wife's complaints on the back burner. Keep them all on the front burner. You can ask her to prioritize what order she would like them handled in.

And for heaven's sake, stop judging your wife's feelings; stop saying that she is "Inflating the issue to a level higher than it really should be." You are not the arbiter of what level something should be. That is profoundly disrespectful and abusive. She can't live like that, Ernie! She should expose that kind of abuse to us and others EVERY SINGLE TIME it happens so that she has a support group, and if you don't stop it, she should separate from you to protect herself until you do.

You MUST stop punishing her for looking for support from your abuse. What you are doing is abusive, whether you are or or not a monster (which is an irrelevant debate). It hurts the hell out of her - what difference does it make if you aren't a monster? It hurts!

I think you need to encourage your wife to post here to hold you accountable. Your actions have been punishing and discouraging her from posting. But it's the best possible thing for you - you need to learn what was abusive about each disrespectful thing you say. Sometimes she may not even know, but we can help her (and you) understand why it hurts.

For crying out loud, she hurts like hell, and you are punishing her for telling people about it? And arguing that you are not really a monster? It's about how BAD you are making her feel, Ernie, not how good you really are.

When your response to your wife's "Ouch!" is "No, let me explain, I'm not really so bad," you are on the wrong track:

Ouch! No, no, let me explain... by Steve Harley, M.S.

No she doesn't qualify - just finding a child psychologist/psychaitrist who would take on the liability of seeing her at all was a huge challenge. She's on Welbutrin now, and that has some positive effects, be we are a long, long way from seing the light at the end of the tunnel.

My mother in law moved to town a couple weeks ago, WOOT WOOT!! She's a sweetheart, but doesn't like to babysit a lot. She really the only one we have that can watch the kids some. Now that Christmas is over, We don't have a lot of extra money to spend on babysitters (wow, they charge a lot nowadays)

If all of this frustrates and exasperates you - just think how Elaina must feel! She's the one hurting because of the disrespectful way you react to her complaints. She's the one in pain. She's the victim. She's the one who needs more understanding from you. You are the big strong guy who is capable of listening to us and learning from us so that you can stop hurting her so bad, rather than getting upset and frustrated with us and arguing with us.

Ernie,

Have you read the book Love Busters by Dr Harley?

Sure they are, but spouses separating seems like death sentence to the family structure. I believe in cases of extreme abuse it is warranted.

(BTW: I have my AO's under control, please see: #2767789 - 11/23/13 11:59 PM -
Here's an analogy to explain how I feel about it:
If you break the speed limit, you get a ticket and usually pay a fine. Most people don't really try to break the speed limit, they just do sometimes because they aren't paying close enough attention. The fine hurts to get, but it isn't a death sentence.

There are no states giving the death sentence to speeders, so I get really confused when people accuse me of murder on here, when I just wasn't watching the speedometer as closely as I should have, that's all.

I understand I have had to pay an occasional fine (LB withdrawls) because I was speeding (DJ's -still learning those) but I really don't believe I deserve a death penalty.

In cases of separation, Dr Harley doesnt recommend separation as a means of punishment like a traffic cop giving a ticket.
He recommends it as a means of protecting the other spouse from the emotional harm that is being caused.

Would you like your wife to be madly in love with you?

Thanks - but Dude, I am working hard on being a better husband in this marriage, it's just really hard to get over so many bad habits learned over the years. I can try to get perfect overnight, but it isn't easy. I feel like I got a really good hold on my AO's really quickly once I realized just how much damage I was doing, and it still takes energy and effort to make that be a success as well...

Changing bad habits really drains a lot out of a person. The only thing I ask is for patience as I am improving, and I get that from Elaina (bless her heart) ... and I hope it isn't too much to ask for a little patience from y'all as well.

I am totally cool with that... I want her to feel like she is getting some good support from others when she needs it.


I do too, my man.

I hurt like hell right now, as well... and I don't know if anyone can tell I am.

I really feel like no ones cares if I am hurting like hell, as well.

Abuse is the death sentence here. Separation would be to protect your wife, not punish you.

You need to start taking your abuse more seriously.
According to your wife's recent post, you are still punishing her.

I get this. I don't want to make her feel bad. I was just really upset because I felt that situation wasn't being accurately portrayed, that's all. Shoot, if I didn't know her at all and was going only by what "Elaina" has posted on here, I would suggest she leave as well! It's just that... well, the info she posts on here sure seems very, very different to me than what is really going on, that's all. I guess that is why I can get so confused and wondering why she says the things that she does sometimes, because it seems like it doesn't coincide with what is happening in our marriage and home. I don't want to call her an outright liar, but it just reminds me of the old saying: "There's three sides to every story- your side, my side, and the truth".

OK, I have my flame suit on for saying that, but I think you get what I am saying. I will FREELY ADMIT that I have a long way to go on learning about what is a DJ and what is not a DJ.... and I think that now that my anger is under control, I need to study some more on getting a hold of what DJ's I am doing and figure out how to stop doing them.

I sure would!! That is why I am working on trying to be a better husband, so she would be madly in love with me, as I am in love with her!! <3 <3 <3

We have read a lot from the Love Busters book, but I don't think we have finished reading together yet. She has read the whole thing, but I don't know when I would be able to find the time to read it other than when we have UA time. Same with the DR. H radio broadcasts, where do I find the time?

You can ask her if she really truly wants to separate. She tells me she doesn't, and I believe her.


Still learnin', ma'am. :tips hat:

You are still downplaying your abuse. Your marriage will not get better until you start taking what she says seriously -- MORE seriously than we on this board take her.

As far when is there time to read Lovebusters or listen to the show -- MAKE THE TIME.

Do you have a smartphone? You can ;listen to the show during your commute using the free MB app.

She doesn't need to read it together with you. You need to study it as if your M depends on it, though.

I don't think you really do.

People are really trying to help you but you seem to want to talk more than you want to listen. Your M is in real trouble here and you need to start listening. You are VERY LUCKY that markos and prisca are helping you.

I was very disappointed with this post, Ernie.

I was hoping for something more along the lines of: It was wrong of me to browbeat my W into POJA'ing her posts with me. I have encouraged her to post again and told her I will not punish her for her posts.

Instead you tell us you're not some kind of monster. That's basically gaslighting. I hope you don't talk to your W like that.

That is an amazingly cavalier and nonchalant attitude about the PAIN and suffering that you are causing your wife. Every word uttered to defend yourself is going to be offensive to her.

"I'm just learning" - doesn't help the hurt. It makes it worse.

(Plus, part of the problem is that learning is TOO LOW of a priority for you. Everything else is taking precedence, when this should be number one, and it would be, if you took it seriously.)

If you care that you've hurt her, you'll stop defending yourself and start following the very practical suggestions that have been offered to help you learn how to not hurt her any more.

Any case like this one - where the husband doesn't take the problem of abuse seriously and makes excuses about why he isn't going to be able to follow the plan to correct the problem - is a case of extreme abuse.

Dr. Harley's advice to women is to write a letter to their husbands expressing their complaint about abuse and/or neglect and then if he dismisses the problem or explains why it has to be that way and she should be more tolerant, etc., his advice is to separate to protect herself until he takes the problem seriously. In at least one case, Dr. Harley knew a woman who wrote her husband such a letter and he simply tore it up!

(You'd be familiar with more of those cases if you were listening to the radio show.)

I'm actually not reading her posts fully but am reading yours in detail - I don't need to take her word to see the abuse: you describe yourself doing and saying abusive things very frequently. The biggest problem right now is that you don't know how to even recognize disrespect on your part. So you think you are doing great, but you are actually saying a lot of things that are disrespectful. And then when we try to encourage you to educate yourself about this so you can stop this problem, you let us know that you don't have time.

What that means is, there is no hope for Elaina that the disrespectful judgments are going to stop any time soon. You don't know what the problem is and aren't going to take the steps that are necessary to become educated about it. That doesn't leave her with much hope, and under the circumstances, Dr. Harley would advise her to start planning for a separation to protect herself.

I'd like to hear from Elaina again very soon on this board - it is very serious that you tried to cut her off from this source of support against your abuse. Seeking support for an abusive situation (demands, disrespect, or anger) is not subject to the Policy of Joint Agreement. I hope you will encourage her to post freely - let her know that if she feels you are punishing her for what she writes here, you encourage her to report this to the moderators and get you banned or whatever it takes so that she can receive this support without having to be afraid of you.

Doing that would go a long way toward helping your situation, Ernie.


Yes, you do! Like Prisca said - you need to make the time!

Thanks; I know this is true. I'll have to figure out a way to find the time somehow.



I don't believe I realized that. I am not "just learning" though - I am not making excuses, I am making real measurable progress. It gives me hope to jeep moving forward.

By the way, we had a separation in 2012. Prisca insisted that I could no longer live with her if I continued to be abusive.

We are back together, and very happy. And I know that she will never put up with that again. Knowing this helps motivate me to avoid demands, disrespect, and angry outbursts!

That isn't me, though (the tearing up letter type) - my wife and I do talk about the things I need to be taking more seriously.


She's online reading this right now, so Baby - go ahead and post what you need to post, I'll keep my big nose out of it!

MUAH!

Excellent - this is what Elaina needs to hear.


Good - you sound like you are listening a little more now, so I hope you will be following up on these recommendations. It's the hope that Elaina needs.

I have been in a situation that is an awful lot like yours, and I probably have a pretty good idea of how you are feeling.

The solution is for you to take the lead in eliminating the abusive behaviors. Don't ever let her Love Busters become an excuse for you to not eliminate yours. It is imperative that if one person breaks the MB rules, the spouse doesn't respond by becoming demanding, disrespectful, or angry.

BTW, as you are reading Love Busters, look for the answer to this question:
What is Dr. Harley's recommended way for a couple to exchange information about Love Busters that occur?

Woooo hooo! Some words of encouragement!! Thanks!!

I don't think anybody knows that better than me, to be frank. But Steve Harley's comment to me was "Don't expect to be praised for eliminating Love Busters. People typically don't go around blowing a trumpet and singing their own praises for the fact that they stopped being disrespectful and angry toward their wife." The real success comes when you have established safety and are finally able to provide care (meet emotional needs). When your wife is consistently safe from you and you are meeting her emotional needs consistently you will get a lot of admiration from her, and probably quite a bit from us.


Don't ask us to cut you any slack, Ernie. Ask us to hold you accountable.

"Gradualism in theory is perpetuity in practice." What that means is, if you aim at making gradual improvement, things will stay the same, so you need to aim at perfection. It's the only way to make even gradual improvement possible.

Taking this seriously requires reaching for the absolute standard: NO love busters.

This analogy was basically a way of saying that the disrespect you show your wife isn't so bad. It's a minor thing, like speeding.

That's a big part of the problem, here. You think disrespect is a minor thing. It's not like speeding - it's a major thing.

Don't try to persuade people that your offenses aren't so bad. Instead, learn how to eliminate your offending behavior, like the rest of us have done or are doing.


This is an argument for some tolerance for some love busters in marriage. Dr. Harley's position is that if you don't eliminate the love busters, your marriage doesn't stand a chance. And he's right!

Don't do like I did, Ernie - I posted here for three years before I finally took the problem seriously and decided that Prisca should not have to put up with an occasional love buster from me.

Dr Harley describes anger as enormously destructive to a marriage. He says that other problems cannot be dealt with if anger is present.

To post your analogy correctly: anger is as serious as murder to a marriage.In fact, it IS murder to a marriage..

If you will read Love Busters closely, any attempt to punish your spouse is classified by Dr. Harley as an angry outburst.

Given that you were giving your wife grief over what she posted here, I would say you still have a way to go on eliminating angry outbursts.

Selfish Demands, Disrespectful Judgments, and Angry Outbursts are all a continuum or spectrum of abusive behavior. Frequently one leads right into the other. Sometimes a behavior might be on the border and we might debate about which of the three it really is - but a more productive thing to do is to eliminate all three.

Yes!

Ernie, you need to start regarding your demands, disrespect, and anger as more like murder than like speeding. That is what "taking it seriously" means. It is serious, and not a thing to be minimized. Demands, disrespect, and anger will KILL a marriage.

I think you forgot to add "...no matter how small".

That has been one of the hardest concepts for me to grasp. I had always just assumed small ones were going to happen no matter what and are unavoidable, so they didn't belong in the same category as the large ones.

That's right, Ernie. You're starting to see how important this is.

(Find a time to listen to that radio show every day. You need to have a lot of exposure to this thinking to get these ideas fully accepted in your mind - that way, your logic and your reasoning and your understanding will be able to give you a reason to override your emotions when you are feeling emotional and wanting to let loose with demands, disrespect, or anger.)

This is exceptionally good advice!

I think so, too - it's a blatant rip-off from Dr. Harley's son, Steve Harley, who told me exactly that on a paid call.

Passed along to you for free.

Thanks to everyone who has made an effort to give me good advice on helping me save my marriage. I do appreciate all you have done, and I am grateful.

Goodbye.

That kind of sounds like the opposite of my suggestion:


http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2777262#Post2777262

I can't see any reason why you should be bidding the board goodbye if you are still planning to do the work.

I was thinking of maybe just being a "lurker" or "viewer" instead of posting further. I still plan to do the work, but I'd rather leave gracefully before I get banned. My wife saw this and text'd me a little after noon and said "I don't want you to give up the MB forum".

I haven't decided yet if staying here as a poster is a good idea or not. I want to honor my wife's wishes, and I get some really good advice... but at the same time it still feels very hostile being here. I find my self being very drained and pulled down far more than energized and lifted up after being on here... that isn't helpful to me, though. (Especially after the "tush-reaming" I got from the DCMA guys today, it will be a while before I untuck my tail from between my legs... we are a poster child for workplace hostility, here at this aerospace place).

People tend to gravitate towards the things that help them up and shy away from the things that tear them down, so that is why I am debating on whether I should stay here (as a poster) or not. It is difficult to feel like I should continue on here when I feel perpetually torn down.

I got up to page 45 in LB yesterday afternoon, I am fixin' to leave work now and go read some more.

Ernie,

I have family in the aerospace industry too. So I can understand a bit about the frustrations there.

Please stay and get help. I'm fairly new, but I have seen progress in your posts since you have been here. Markos, among many others, is here and willing to help you. But you must take the first steps to change.

Please show your wife respectful support as she posts in the forum. She needs to hear that from you, and she needs to see it.

You can do this!

I too have seen progress from the beginning of your thread as well.

***EDIT***

LTL

What about emailing Dr. Harley?
Email your questions to Joyce Harley at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com. When your email question is chosen to be answered on the radio show, you will be notified by email directing you to listen to the rebroadcast. If you would like to consider being a caller, include your telephone number. You will be called by us to explain the procedure to you. Every caller will receive a complementary book by Dr. Harley that addresses their question.

And we don't want you to leave either.

You are not in jeopardy of being banned. Bans are not initiated at the "suggestion" of members.

If the moderators have a concern with your posts, they will usually contact you via email to personally discuss any issues.

And , just as a reminder to ALL members-- be SURE we have a current, working email address for you. UPDATE your email addresses!!
Thank you,

JustUss

You are forgetting that entirely aside from the punishment handed out that speeding sometimes hurts people. If you speed on the road, you might kill. If you abuse in your marriage (even if it is unintentional!) you might kill it.

Separation is not a punishment, it is taking your 'license' to comunicate off you for a while to make sure you don't kill your wife's love for you.



I think this is the heart of the matter. You seem to think you should have the same PoV, which is impossible. This is where your lack of perception lies which is causing all this 'speeding'.

Men and women see EVERYTHING very, very differently! Elaina's perspective is hugely valuable because it tells you what not only what SHE thinks, but how importantly SHE rates it.

But most of all Elaina's perpective is opposite which means she can see all the things in YOUR blind spot.

I found the hot dog story very interesting. How you didn't see that a hot dog rolling was a big deal, but that she sees the need for more calm and control in your responses.

She is capable of seeing things you cannot. Just as you can see all the things she cannot. That's PoJA.

Remember:

Elaina is a DIFFERENT person to you!
She has different thoughts, feelings and perceptions!
These differences must be RESPECTED, ok?
When you get really advanced, you move on to valuing her differences, but baby steps...

So, Ernie, how much have you read after p45?

Yes, you'll have people here pointing out where you're love busting, but that's not a tear down. Posters won't tell you you "great work, so your remaining Lovebusters are small problems to work on later." It sounds to me you want encouragement that you are doing good (admiration) even when you're not, rather than encouragement to do better.

And have you become transparent with your wife with the bank account and finances?

You complain she tells the story from her POV and not yours, yet you're ready to pack up and be silent. You're the only one that can explain your POV, here.

Ernie listen up - that was the wrong response. The RIGHT response was to change your offensive behavior, not run away.

The point is that if you are going to be abusive toward Elaina and not work to fix the problem (argue that it's not such a big problem or is really her fault, etc.), she needs to be protected from you. But the real solution to that is for you to learn to stop abusing her. Not to run away.

Get back here, ASAP.

Ernie, this is the worst excuse I've ever heard for bailing out and not doing the work to learn how to stop abusing your wife.

Nobody is going to ban you from this forum on my say so. Get back here ASAP.

All you need to do is learn to stop abusing your wife and arguing with her. This is not rocket science.

The question is are you willing to do it or not?

Not posting = not willing
Arguing with your wife when she complains = not willing

As long as you remain unengaged like this, your wife needs to be planning for a separation, because the clear message you are sending is that you have no control of yourself and are unable to stop abusing her and unable to learn how to stop.

Now personally I think you ARE able to learn how to stop. (After all, I was able to learn how, so I think you can do it, too.) So the real question is will you do it, or will you argue every time she complains about you doing it?

The only reasons I haven't been on here was because I haven't had time to read/post while at I have been at work this week, doing so at home could possibly make my wife upset, and I have been sick all week.

I am read up to about 1/3 of the way through LB book... Elaina and I discussed it the first couple of days. I haven't brought up any points the last few days (because I have been near exhaustion) and she never, ever, ever, asks me about it... or asks me about any other MB stuff.

You know, I had a really nice long response typed out, but what's the use. I give up.

If my wife were comes on here and says [edit: anything she wants, really....whether it actually happened that way or not] then what's the point of me being here?

I get beat up and attacked by her,
I get attacked by others who are sympathizing with her...

If I don't think she is honestly portraying what our home life is like accurately,
then I just don't see why I should be here because it's just making me upset.
I feel she is just not portraying events accurately or honestly.
Slam me for saying that, but it's how I feel.

I have been putting forth extraordinary effort to have a positive and peaceable home life with no AO's, no DJ's... I really have been.
I have pouring out all the extra energy I have to being the best I can be.

...but despite all that, I am continuously being made to feel (by her) that NO amount of effort, even the maximum amount, is enough effort.

At this point, I am beginning to feel like she is incapable of ever being satisfied by "us".

I WANT to keep having hope..
I really, really, really do...
but my wife continuously punishes me for the absolute tiniest of mistakes and expects from me far more than what I I feel like I can possibly give.

I am trying so hard..... Yet I am always being told I am failing at every turn.

I don't get it.

I don't really get the feeling anyone here wants to hear my POV. At least if that is the case, this is the first time I have noticed it.
Maybe I am wrong... but I am not feeling that.

"She said we had an argument, he wonders why she said that because no argument happened..."

I try really hard to avoid "she said, he said" narratives because it so seldom turns out positively in the end.

Maybe I am wrong about that too.

Yes, I am financially transparent... but my wife has never volunteered to share her bank account info with me, nor does she tell me what she is going to be spending that money on. But every day when I come home, there are new Arby's, Wendy's, Sonic, Taco Bell, etc. stuffs on the table and it bothers me... but I don't say anything about it.

She doesn't do this. She does not.
But she does expect me to know when I did. That is very unfair.
Maybe once every three months she will say something... which is incredibly unproductive.
If I can't see the target I will forever be shooting in the dark.


This is what kills me.
I�ll never hear about it 97% of the time, even if there is a realization later.


That is untrue; I do not do this.
I am very considerate of what my wife has to say, in the rare cases she does tell me what is going on.


I don't do anything (in this present age) that resembles a �rampage�. Maybe last year, yes � but not recently.


In the past this was true, but not anymore.


Her letters often are not productive at all.
They are usually accusatory, full of blame, threatening, and belittling.



OK, I am not an inconsiderate person like "Ed" in Steve's example. I am always apologetic when I do something wrong: If I am aware of what I did, I apologize - - and if I find out later about something I did but had no idea what I did was wrong, I apologize for it when the issue has been brought to my attention... but only If/when it has been brought to my attention, which is very very seldom.

I do not tell Elaina "she shouldn't feel hurt". Though I have in the past (guilty as "Ed" was) I do not continue in that behavior.

I printed this off:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8114_plan.html

I am going to carry a copy everywhere I go and read it 10 times a day!

Things have to to be getting better...

Glad you're back. Are you going to stick with it?

1. You decide if you want to rid yourself of Lovebusters. She doesn't need to ask you what you learned today from the book in order for you to take it to heart and change how you treat her.

2. The way you feel home life is like is different than how we feels. It's disrespectful to say she is wrong and dishonest about how it is from her point of view. Respect her point of view and ask what you can do to make life better.

3. As Markos said, you don't get kudos for protecting your wife from Lovebusters. You eliminate them because you care, and get kudos and admiration for sustained meeting of your wife's emotional needs.

4. Another DJ.

5. How does she punish you? That may be a lovebuster that she can work on eliminating (but factual complaints or statements about what make her unhappy are not Lovebusters).

The key is to learn to express your point of view in a way that is not demanding, disrespectful, or angry.

For example, tell Elaina that it bothers you for her to be spending the money on fast food. I'm sure she is willing to negotiate a new solution with you that will make you both happy. This is a great issue to practice on. I'm sure she is willing to stop buying these things that you are not enthusiastic about until an alternative is found.

Don't tell her that she "shouldn't" be buying these things - that would be disrespectful. Don't let the conversation be about right and wrong, good and bad, at all. Just the fact that doing this bothers you.

Now, if your point of view in general is that Elaina shouldn't complain, you need to understand that this choice is what leads to unhappy, incompatible marriages. In good marriages husbands and wives complain to each other when there is a problem - respectfully, non-demandingly, and without an angry outburst.

The problem most of us have when we get here is that we see only two choices: either don't talk about things that bother us, or become demanding, disrespectful, or angry about it. But that's a false choice, because those are not your only choices. If you want a good marriage, you'll both have to learn to give and receive complaints without being demanding, disrespectful, or angry.

So, express your point of view - just not in a way that is disrespectful to your wife. Don't say anything that suggests that she is wrong to feel the way she does or that she is taking something too seriously. That is disrespectful. If she feels there is a problem, you'll both need to work together to find a solution. Let her know your point of view. For example, if there's something you do and it bothers her, talk about what benefit you are receiving from doing it, so that together you can find something to do instead.

It's not a matter of portraying anything accurately. What needs to be understood is her feelings, and your feelings. If she feels you are disrespectful, that is true and it is vitally important that you stop doing anything that she feels is disrespectful.

Read very closely through the Selfish Demands, Disrespectful Judgments, and Angry Outbursts chapters of Love Busters, and you'll see how Dr. Harley makes it clear that you need to let your spouse determine what is disrespectful or not - if she says it is, it is, and you'll need to change it if you want her to be happy.

Your wife is very capable of being happy - if you'll stop the things that are making her feel unhappy.

When was the last time you re-read this thread from beginning to end?

Great. But be sure to let her be the judge of that. You may still be doing it sometimes without realizing. You need to find out accurately what things you might be saying or doing that she feels are disrespectful or dismissive toward her feelings, and you'll need to stop all of them.

There are several recent examples. For example, when you were posting that she was taking things too seriously, or not seriously enough. That was not that long ago. If you stop everything like that and keep it stopped, you'll find that it will become possible to make your wife happy.

Ernie, remember that points of view are subjective. Her opinion of the marriage and home life is different than yours. It's neither right nor wrong. Obviously you see things differently. Your viewpoint isn't right or wrong, it's simply different.

We're not here to beat anyone up. We're here to help give you the skills to create a beret marriage. Often becoming better and improvement is difficult and uncomfortable. But this isn't some middle school where people pick on each other. We have better things to do with our time. If what we say is direct and to the point it's because we want to get to the point.

Stop expecting high fives and congratulations for doing what you're supposed to be doing. When most of us go to work, we don't get high praises for showing up on time ands keeping to deadlines. We do get reprimanded for not doing what we're supposed to do.

The question is are you willing to do what it takes to have a successful marriage? Of you are and you do, she will follow suit

Ernie,

There is disagreement between what your wife says and what you say about transparency in finances. Are all your pay stubs there for her to see? Does all your useable income go into a joint account that she has full access to, including all transactions? If not, this doesn't help in providing an atmosphere of safety, care, and partnership in your marriage. This is something you could easily and quickly fix and would show good will on your part.

I had payroll set so $1200 (same every month) went into our joint account, and the remaining $231 or so went into my old account where I could pay my student loan from ($88) as well as three previous credit cards: One card I used regularly for us eating out and gifts, one I used never (just paying it down) and one I only used sparingly, like when it was just the two of us at a fast food joint (less than $50 a month). I pay for all our land taxes, vehicle maintenance, bicycle maintenance, the Lowe's card (most of the time)& and all other household/yard expenses from what ever is left. Once in a while there has been a few hundred extra if I got some overtime hours, but since all I ever feel when it comes to finances is give give give give give give give give give give (not a stuck keyboard), then I let my taker have that last little bit left for me... and I don't blow it on fast food either.

My paystubs have never been a secret I was hiding from her. When she asks to see, I go find one. Most of the time I forgot it was in my pocket by the time I got home, so I seldom bothered to take the time to show her since we talked about (and knew) how much I am making.

This has been a HUGE deal for me: She complains about money for groceries, yet she buys tons of junk food and other crap I am NOT enthusiastic about buying! There is no good reason to come home with 4 cans of Pringles that will be gone in 2 days, or 20 frozen pizzas... or expensive sliced deli meats and cheese that just go bad and get thrown out (yep,I am still upset about that).

We have PLENTY each month for food ($1100 to mortgage, $60 water, $400/month to gas/insurance leaves $840 a month that gets blown on junk food and fast food). I eat ramen noodles for lunch because I am trying to cut expenses.

I balk every time she complains about money because all I see is a steady stream of junk, waste, and fast food. The kids constantly prepare meals, eat a little bit and waste the rest. I am forbidden to say anything about it to them, and she thinks its no big deal so she lets it continue.

I have always maintained the position if I see those things improve some, then I would be more open about finances.


You are 100% correct, and it goes back to when we first got married... I bought an expensive ring, most of the wedding (both our parents helped some), a nice big house for all of us to live in, all of the expenses to get her and her kids moved into the house, and a honeymoon. My cash savings were wiped to ZERO, and A lot of this went on credit cards. We talked about money and I felt she was very much in agreeance that we need to be frugal for a while to get caught up.

This is one of the very biggest hurts for me I never got over. She was a non-working single mom living on savings, child support, food stamps, and her mom, from Jan 2008 until early 2010 (when we were getting ready to get married). Her step-dad told me how she is amazing with money: "she can take whatever small amount she has stretch it to the limits and make it go as far as she can." This was exceedingly encouraging to me since I value a sensible lifestyle with occasional luxuries (like fast food, which I seldom ate before we were married) and not living in excess every day, and that pretty much how she lived as well. I thought we were a pretty good match at that time.

Since we got married, I have been made to feel like she married me for my money at times. (I was making about 50K and she knew this going in). Starting off early in our marriage, I wanted us to stress frugality until we got caught up, but all I could see was the constant flow of money and the overdrafts each month (numerous). I admit I was COMPLETELY unaware of how much money things were going to cost.. this caught me totally off guard and made me throw the brakes on, and they have been locked down since.

All of this could have been avoided so easily if the immediate post-marriage spending spree had never occurred. I have screen shots of bank statements saved from back then that show $250-$300 withdrawls every few DAYS!!!! That was the breaking point for me, and I have been very upset about how money is being handled ever since then. I was expecting frugality and felt she was on board wit that philosophy, but the statements were all proving otherwise.

She gets $945 a month from child support, and $260-$320 of it goes to electricity, which I think is completely fair because she can control how much juice we use from the kids leaving the lights on in every room all day, and constantly heating frozen pizzas in the electric oven (in the summer, when the A/C is already full tilt). I know for a fact she uses our Discover card to buy groceries because I see the statements. From all visual indicators, the best I can tell is she spends the other $600 on junk food and fast food. Add in the other $800 from our joint account, and what I get is about $1400 a month (give or take) being spent on absolute junk. The only exception to this has been some books for her son's classes.

I want to discuss a budget... but it's hard.
I finally feel like we have got our "normal" or "Joint account" spending levels down to a reasonable and manageable level... meaning no over drafts, bills are all paid, and we still get to eat out some for occasions like date night and after church.

I haven't ever been adamant about knowing what she spends her child support money on because I felt it was her money, and I didn't want to seem controlling about it. I have always figured that if she has all that money to spend as she pleases, then WHY would she be concerned about the little extra I might have each month?

OH, and since I keep such a small amount for myself, I spend this money very very frugally. Most of the time, it's actually things we need for around our property anyway!! Like fencing supplies, chainsaw and firewood cutting supplies, sewer drainfield pipe, etc. etc. I don't buy any of that with our "joint" money. I even bought the rear tires on her Caravan with "my" money and not "our" money.

So having to hear her complain about money when I all see is waste, waste and more waste makes me want to not talk about it.

Can you talk about it without namecalling words like "waste"? That is disrespectful. When she buys something you don't like, just say it bothers you to spend money that way. Don't use disrespect to get your point across. That will make it impossible to ever discuss the subject. Or any problems at all.

Also, don't use terms like "fair." There is no "fair" and "unfair." There is only things that both of you are enthusiastic about, and things that only one of you are enthusiastic about.

If you will stick with this program, we can help you learn to discuss these problems successfully.

Is there transparency? Is she able to see where every dollar goes?

Okay, now, you've got a conflict to work out.

You can talk to your wife and apologize for how you've behaved about finances, and you would like to work it out in a way that makes you both happy. You can start by letting her know your paystubs will be sent to your home mailbox so you can both look over and discuss finances and to combine incomes into one shared account.

You can then read and print out the materials from Dr. Harley about finances and budget. She writes out all that she needs and wants and approximate cost. You do the same. Then you two start negotiating, with respect and care. No "you gotta be kidding," or "that's wasteful," or anything of the sort. Make the whole process caring and respectful. All the guidance about how to do this is in this website and in Dr. Harley's books.

Have you seen these?
How to Resolve Financial Conflicts and Keep Love in Your Marriage #1
How to Resolve Financial Conflicts and Keep Love in Your Marriage #2

Ernie:

#1: Even if all you have said is 100% true, why do you feal Elaina is not capable of understanding math?

By your own account you have not shared the information with her that she would need to have in order to make sound spending decisions.

#2:

In a one-earner household, the earner must take extraordinary precaution and care to not use the fact that they are the earner to force the other partner to cede power.

Either you both acknowledge that each's involvement is 100% as important as the others, or you negotiate for a solution where that sentiment is agreed by both.

#3: By your own account, you seem to really be withholding information in order to even what you perceive to be an old wrong, but it really seems like it was a lack of information.

Here's something I learned from a wise old man: Before you seek revenge, first dig two graves.

Even if everything you say is true, you are not treating her like an equal. Almost more like a child.

Ernie,

Have you completed Anger Busters or some other appropriate anger management program? Any love-busting behavior needs to stop immediately, including the AO's and the DJ's. Even one LB is one too many.

What can you both cut out of your budget to be able to afford the online program with an accountability coach? Can you have a respectful conversation about this ASAP?

Also, have you read about Openness & Honesty? Does Elaina know everything about the finances? Is she comfortable and safe with the financial knowledge that you have shared with her?

Fear.

My decisions are based on fear.

I fear if I concede all monies then I will have absolutely no more say over finances. I have no gentle way to approach the subject without feeling like we would both be putting up huge walls simultaneously.

I feel all I have ever asked was for her to just put a throttle on the fast food/junk food and other spending I viewed as frivolous. Once that has occurred, my trust would be 100% restored... but until that happens, I just can't bring myself to trust. I feel too vulnerable.

I believe Markos has made a suggestion regarding SD's. Did you read his posts?

Further, it appears that you are only willing to change after your wife changes. Is that true?

I suggested a way to approach the situation. Did you try it?
BrainHurts did the hard part and gave you the links.
Did you read and apply?

If you have the attitude that none of this is going to work because she is who she is, you've made one of the most destructive disrespectful judgements that can be made.

Get your paystubs mailed to your house as your first step towards transparency and honesty. She's amenable to MB, so print out the budget worksheets and present the issue with a smile and a negotiating stance.

Then, try to practice holding off on DJs even here. It's not frivolous spending on junk food. You know that that's your _opinion_, right? During caring conversation, you might learn that she doesn't like cooking and that super stretching of dollars takes so much work, that she doesn't want to do that as a lifestyle.

As an aside, a huge red flag for me is the statement "that's all I ask for, this one simple thing..." That's usually a complaint of a controlling person. So now, instead of running away and feeling attacked, look the idea in the face and decide you don't want to be like that any more.

Sir,

I completely agree with you on the issue of spending money on junk food.....
However, if you want to stay married you will have to follow the POJA or your marriage will end in divorce.

I think you are at a crossroads here, where you either decide to follow the POJA and work towards a romantic marriage or just get divorced.

So Ernie, do you realize you are saying that once she gives you your way 100% and cedes to your supervision then you will trust her to be supervised by you?

Not the way a marriage works, buddy.

You are both equal partners.

Treating your spouse like the inferior person in a marriage is one of the fastest ways to make her fall out of love with you.

This is excellent advice.

There is no yours/mine/ours in a marriage.

Not only are you enforcing yours/mine/ours, but your version of that seems to be: "yours (whatever I say is yours)", "mine (whatever I say is mine", and "ours (whatever I say is ours)".

Before you take the step that Lifetime Learner is suggesting, how about if you provide Elaina with full disclosure of your income and "Ernie expenses" and ask her to come to the discussion with a suggested budget?

If your household budget is as tight as you indicate, I would bet you a Starbucks coffee that you will both be suggesting substantially similar suggested budgets.

So you see, Ernie, I'm smelling something else in this situation than simply a disagreement about finances.

Please give Lifetime Learner's suggestion about control some serious thought. That's what I hear from your comments as well.

Do you want a wife who's love for you is more like Stockholm syndrome, or do you want a true marriage? It doesn't seem that Elaina is one of the people who can develop Stockholm syndrome, so herein is your dilemma.

Also, is it true that you have not filed taxes for three years?

If you have, could you please show Elaina your signed/filed returns so you can put her mind at ease that her husband is not racing along a one-way road to prison?

The beauty of having her suggest a budget is that ensures she's 100% on board with her budget (which based on tight finances will likely be 90% or better of what you want as well).

There you have it, your biggest conflict easily resolved with her FULL buy in - since the resolution is her suggestion.

Since what your are POJA negotiating is that last 10% (if even), the stakes are low and the conversation can be calm and productive.

Also, during the discussion, you might POJA what happens if one or the other needs to make a variance to the budget based on circumstances.

For example, any variances over $50 need to be POJA'd, or if there are more than three smaller variances in any month all variances after the third one need to be POJA'd.

You also need to have some leeway for urgent situations, trusting one another to make a good judgment call upon occasion.

For example: Let's say you both ENTHUSIASTICALLY agree there is not money in the budget for more than 2 junk food stops per month. However, it is the 30th (two stops already having been made) and Elaina's day went sideways with a child needing an ER trip where they are released at 6 pm. Elaina had no time to make dinner and needs to care for the child upon arriving home/has no time to cook dinner, so she stops to pick up Taco Bell on the way home. Ernie, concede the Taco Bell stop without complaint or comment, right? But Elaina would try to mitigate the impact by stopping at Taco Bell rather than calling ahead a takeout order with a $12 entr�e for each man/woman/child in the household from P.F. Changs.

Here's another example: Ernie goes to lunch with some colleagues for the first time and carefully orders what is in his budget to spend for lunch out. They order multiple appetizers (Ernie doesn't) and several drinks each (Ernie knows he doesn't have the budget for drinks, so he asks for water). They all order steaks but Ernie orders a hamburger per his budget. At the end of the meal, Ernie finds that the tradition is to split the tab equally and Ernie has no choice but to go along unless he wants to cause an uncomfortable situation. His tab is $51 more than his budget. Elaina concedes the overage without complaint - what else could Ernie do? (And Ernie knows not to go out with these colleagues again until he has room in his budget for a larger tab).

This is the very crux of the problem. You see complaints as a bad thing. This attitude is your dead weight.

Not only do you punish your wife for her complaints - but you fail to make any of your own!

By failing to respectfully raise complaints about fast food you mislead Elaina into a belief she is doing OK. She is
completely unaware that you have turned it into a secret grudge.

.


You have used the secret grudge to justify doing MORE and more IB stuff with marital funds. You have used the concept of separate money to make independent choices on what you wanted to spend marital funds on....( Married people do not own singular money!!! It is all 'OUR' money and Elaina gets a say.)

Ernie, you CAN do better than this. You are a smart man capable of raising simple complaints.

So this is the first time you have raised the fast food complaint on this thread and you have done a shocker of a job.

Complaints should be respectful REQUESTS in which lovebusters are avoided. Your complaint about the fast food is emotive and littered with DJ's and SD's.

If you had avoided secretiveness and raised it simply and respectfully the first time it bothered you, you would never have created such a mountain of resentment.

If you persist in this, she will have no choice but to separate.

She can't resolve the simple complaints of daily life with someone who refuses to even raise them. Creating secret grudges so you can spend joint cash without any PoJA, and commit what you consider justified IB.

In her shoes I'd be making the initial arrangements to separate.

I second Indiegirl's comment about why have you not respectfully complained instead of holding a grudge.

I would also this:

Ernie said: "I admit I was COMPLETELY unaware of how much money things were going to cost.. this caught me totally off guard and made me throw the brakes on, and they have been locked down since. "

Do you see how making independent decisions like this instead of voicing respectful complaints and POJA'ing have destroyed your marriage?

Your response, instead of respectfully complaining and asking to POJA was to a) start thinking she may have married you just for your money (huge DJ), b) since this was in the old days when you were still AOing, probably throw a huge AO, and finally c) hold an everlasting grudge by asserting control over her day to day life forever by forcing your version of financial control over her.

Do you see, Ernie, how that isn't working out for you?

One more comment about keeping secret grudges and making secret DJs about what you think Elaina's motives are:


If you dreamed that your good friend was talking negative things behind your back, when you wake would you be angry at your friend?

Of course not, right?

Well, being angry about what you ASSUME someone else's thoughts or motives are is similarly as foolish.


My husband would AO at me frequently over things he assumed that I was thinking, but that I didn't say. In our 25 years of marriage, his assumptions were NEVER, EVER correct - not even once.


You previously said talking smack about you behind your back is a HUGE lovebuster to you. Do you see the double standard of your behavior? You are talking smack about her behind her back to yourself and worse yet, going on to punish her for the smack you are talking about her.

Elaina said: "he has filled our 3 car garage, it's attic, bought an old shipping container(that he knew I was NOT happy about him getting) put it by our garage, filled that: now the entire yard is filling up."

So here Ernie is another double standard.

You don't want her "wasting" money on fast food but you are "wasting" money on car parts, filling up a 3 car garage, an attic and a yard with stuff you are paying for but not even using.

Ernie,

Did you change your mailing address for your paystubs to your home address?

Ernie,

Where are you? What have you been doing to change things for the better? This running away gives Elaina the message "I'm not here for you," which is the opposite of affection, which kills any chance for you to get admiration. I don't think you have much time left to turn this ship around, so it's time for you to decide: do according to loving principles which MB is, or not do them.

I agree.

Ernie, I just posted on Elaina's thread. You've both done a ton of work in the last month, and you CAN do this. But not if you quit now.

Ernie,
I've seen Elaina's update, where's yours?
What steps are you taking to implement MB on your part? What's your plan? What about those paystubs?

Cross posting to both of you in a very general manner.

1) Minimal - get Love Busters, He Wins, She Wins, and 5 Steps to Romantic Love.

Medium - Get some coaching sessions in addition to the above.

High Gear - Get the Online Program

2) Each of you work on eliminating YOUR OWN Love-busting behaviors.

Each of you work on meeting the other's Emotional needs.

(The 5 steps book includes communication sheets to help you communicate ENs and LBs - but some are rather simple; Don't AO/SD/DJ)

3) Last, but most importantly, start getting 20+ hours of UA time EACH WEEK.

At this point, with both of you in heavy conflict/withdrawal, attempting to tackle POJA is an exercise in futility.

People don't generally want to POJA with people whom they are not in love with.

Tackle UA, complete 1 and 2. Then come back to POJA.

Together When You Are Happiest




Helpful tools to start - Print and Complete;


Emotional Needs

Love Busters

There are more... quite a few more than were available when I first arrived here just under 4 years ago;

http://www.marriagebuilders.com//graphic/mbi4500_resource.html


So, quit using the forum posters as referees for your passive-aggressive argument, STOP ARGUING, and get down to Marriage Building... shall we?

Oh, no - - I'm not running... Just taking the time to fix our marriage first... that is where my first "time priorities" lie

I had to take a sick day late Mon/all day Tues and then Wed at work was 100% "catch up" time. I still have a lot to do today, so bye for now but will be checking back in.

It feels REALLY, really good to be on a good path with recovery in our marriage!!

??? That doesn't make any sense. The reason you are bypassing posting here and learning to eliminate your disrespectful judgments and other love busters is because you are "fixing" your marriage? You're skipping fixing your marriage because you are so busy fixing your marriage?

I've heard this one before from other men. Their marriages didn't make it.

Goodness gracious...

Let me clarify: I have been spending some lovely UA time with my wife lately, we have been talking, discussing, practicing POJA, and I have been reading quite a bit as well. These are all good things. I haven't been on here as often because we have been implementing all the good things learned from MB and putting them into practice. So I hope that clears things up a little bit.
(<-Elaina's suggestion to add the "Happy dancing guy")

How about if you stop using excuses to avoid answering the posts on your thread.

???

Please point me to the example you are referring to?

I was going to go back several pages and try to update previous posts from many days ago. I'll do that when I have more free time.

Ernie: "I was going to go back several pages and try to update previous posts from many days ago. I'll do that when I have more free time."


Great to hear, Ernie.

We are all thrilled with the recent turn of events.

Did you find the remote and then refuse to tell her where you found it? Stuff like that is childish. You might as well file for divorce if you keep on this route because she is going to get sick of it.

Let's say she didn't look for it as hard as you felt she should have. So what. It's a remote control. It would have been better to figure out a way to keep better track of the remote. Or go get a universal one just for yourself.

We had an issue losing remotes. So we got one sided sticky velcro and put it on the remote and on the wall and when we were done with the remote put it on the wall. Or if the kids lost the remote (everyone had their own remote) thru couldn't watch TV until thru found it.

Both of you two are in a constant cycle of trying to get the last word or saying a snide.comment or being right. Either fix it or just get divorced

Yes, I found it after a brief search.

When DW went off and began to demand to know where I had found it, I felt the wisest decision was to just leave the room before I said something I might regret later.

Supposedly the kids had �looked for it for days� - it was down under the TV (DW says she didn�t participate in said search - her statement to kids: �You guys were the ones who used it last, you find it�). It really upsets me that so much chaos happens when the kids lose the remote (MMMOOOOMMMM! Where�s the remote?!?!) and then I am told they have been looking for days when it wasn�t even hidden at all� it was not a good time to talk with me about it.

The TV has been a source of contention in our family on a regular basis - not between me and others (I usually have better things to do), but I get to listen to the melee as it progresses (it is sometimes the first thing I hear when I walk in the door). I typically stay out of the fray because my wife doesn�t want me to say anything to her kids, but I certainly take no pleasure in listening to it.

I wouldn�t have my feelings hurt if the TV weren�t there because I so seldom watch the thing. The derision that occurs between various children over who gets to watch what and at what times is really unpleasant at times. I would greatly enjoy the peace and quiet of a TV-free home.


My wife and I can discuss a plan of action ahead of time, but I rely on her discretion to handle the situation at those times when I am at work and not at home. Simply unplugging the TV would be the most enthusiastic agreement I would come up with.

I don�t need my own remote - I enjoy other activities far more than watching the TV. I do enjoy watching the Andrew Wommack DVD�s my wife gets, as well as the Veggie Tales shows. Sometimes I watch something on Discovery, but it happens once a week at the most, if that.

The problem I'm seeing is that you were disrespectful and angry toward your wife about the remote - I'm not seeing you acknowledging that.

Whatever you decide to do about the television and the remote - make sure it doesn't include being abusive.

You don't need us to tell you what to do about the TV - you need to learn to quit being disrespectful to your wife when the two of you have a conflict.

If you look over Dr. Harley's guidelines for successful negotiation, the first guideline - the VERY FIRST - is establish a safe environment with ground rules to protect both of you: no demands, disrespectful judgments, or angry outbursts.

You are trying to brainstorm about solutions and that is a much later step. The first step is to learn stop fighting.

Have you seen this?
Four Guidelines for Successful Negotiation

Also, are you in an anger management program?

I left the room because I did not want to enter into an unpleasant discussion, and was not in the right mindset to discuss it calmly... It didn't come up for discussion later.

I did what y'all say to do - leave if it gets unpleasant, go somewhere else to calm down. I forgot completely about it afterward (many other things going on), and DW didn't mention it again. How did I go wrong?

Here is what she told us: "Yesterday, my DH found the tv remote that had been misplaced. I asked him where he found it, and he told me he wouldn't tell me. No one had obviously put any effort in finding it so I didn't deserve to know. I told him I would really like to know, but again.... And still he refuses to tell me."

She asked a real simple question and was treated to the above lovebuster. Why?

Are you in anger management?

Good question!

Your wife feels she simply asked you and you feel she went off on you. It seems you two have a completely different view of how you are responding to each other. Essentially what you're saying is you feel your wife interacted with you in a disrespectful manner. If that's the case, you need to say, "I would appreciate it if you didn't speak to me in such a harsh tone. I found the remote under the tv."

if she rebuffs your opinion of how you feel she responded to you. You calmly repeat how you feel. Then I would have said "let's take some time to brainstorm on ways to keep the remote from getting lost."

A good question for which no good answer exists.

It is insufficient to just walk away from unpleasant confrontations. You also have to avoid doing things that cause the confrontations. To commit a lovebuster, then walk away from the subsequent complaint and claim to be taking the high road is delusional. You need to own what you do before there is any hope of fixing this.

It started as a simple question at first.
I was not calm about all the chaos its "been missing" had caused, so I did not want to talk about it just then - at that point. I most likely SHOULD have just said "I am really upset by the the remote often being misplaced, and I don't wish to discuss it at this moment". But, I did not say that. When she then began to demand to know where I had found it, that escalated the situation and I felt the wisest decision was to just leave and calm down before I said something I should not say.

Yes, I was upset - especially after having found it in a simple location.

No - I did not communicate to my wife that I was upset.

That's great - - but I need to talk myself down first, before responding. Agree?

My H used to do this. It got to the point where I just stopped asking questions. This is where a wife walks on egg shells. I told him I wanted separation if he could not stop, and he did - with some minor bumps along the way. I was 100% serious - I was starting to make plans to leave. I had a toddler and was pregnant - that is how serious I was.

I cannot imagine any woman tolerating this. To not even be able to ask where a remote was without anticipating some sort of AO. You could have simply just said where it was and then said you needed to discuss later some ways to solve this problem.

You WILL get divorced if this continues. You need anger management if you cannot cope with such a question without responding with anger about other things.

I agree, but I just wanted a moment to calm down first.
Is that not what I am supposed to be doing?

Opening my yap when I am upset about something will cause more damage, correct?

If you must calm down first before answering your wife's question about the location of the remote, you have a serious anger problem.

Again, are you in anger management?

You have to learn to be calm even when a storm is happening around you-its good for your health and women find it attractive. A better way to have handled this is to just answer the question and then change the subject. If you had just answered the question, the blow up situation would not have occurred. Both of you are frustrated and feeding off each others frutration.

Then later you approach the subject of strategies to handle the misplaced remote issue after the kids are not around.

Go to the grocery store and learn to negotiate. "How would you feel about buying 2 cucumbers (or whatever product it is)".

I wasn't angry at her.

I was upset with the kids for causing chaos for my wife at home when they should have been looking in obvious places.

I was very upset that they caused my wife frustration when they didn't need to at all - they should have simply looked for it but they did not.


I read a series of lessons online. I did what I was supposed to be doing- calming myself down... That is what anger management teaches. I didn't have an AO, and for me that's a HUGE step.

Do you have other suggestions for calming down before discussing an issue? Why do you think I should invalidate my feelings of being upset?

If I had been in the frame of mind to do that, I would have done just that. However, that is not what I was thinking at the time - All I was thinking was to "just chill out and don't say anything stupid".

You need to get into an anger management program that will keep you accountable, or there is no hope for your marriage.

Will you sign up today?

You are in no position to judge that.

It's still a massive withdrawal from your account in your wife's love bank. It's just as serious to be angry or disrespectful toward her children as it is to be that way toward her directly.


Any time you use the word "should," it's a pretty clear indicator that you are being disrespectful.

If your problem is that the kids hurt your wife, you would want to make it better, not worse, right? So don't handle it by being angry or disrespectful toward the children.

As kilted said, you need to learn how to be calm even when there's a storm happening around you.


When you are upset, you shouldn't say or do anything until you are calm.

Then, after you are calm, you should resolve the issue. Later when your wife asked you where the remote was, you should have just told her instead of being dramatic about it. Any time you are dramatic to prove a point, it should clue you in that you are probably being very disrespectful and making huge love bank withdrawals.

Yes - you need accountability or you guys are not going to make it.

After you calm down, you should tell her where you found the remote, without commenting on how noone has put any effort into finding it. That comment is disrespectful, as is refusing to tell her.

I guess my questions goes unanswered.

This is golden advice.

Combine it with an anger management program and you will probably turn your marriage into something that makes your wife very happy.

What would have been so wrong with just saying "i found it on the couch?" (or wherever you found it) How very amazing that a simple question could be used to cause so much damage to your marriage.

Wouldn't just answering the question be the wisest course of action?

I agree very much that anger management therapy is the most urgent issue here.

Yes, but I just forgot about it because we had other tasks going on.

Ernie, here is Dr. Harley's advice on how to negotiate your problems when one of you is an emotional person. In particular there is advice to purchase a meter that can be used to gauge your frustration level. I have one of these meters. With this meter, you can practice learning to relax when you feel frustrated, and eventually learn to stay calm while handling a conflict with your wife:

How to negotiate when you are an emotional person

Right now, when you and your wife have a conflict, your emotions are prompting you to do things that are extremely abusive and hurtful to your wife, extremely destructive to your marriage, and extremely destructive to your balance in your wife's love bank.

If you want your marriage to be something that makes your wife happy, you are going to need to learn to protect her by preventing this kind of damage.

Right now I'm not sure you realize how serious that damage is. It sounds to me like the discussion we had a couple of weeks ago, where basically you felt that you'd offended on something of the level of a speeding ticket, something that your wife (and us) should feel is not that big a deal.

I guess my questions goes unanswered. [/quote]

Hold on there..... don't do that.
I am at work right now.
The time I get to spend on here is VERY limited.
Y'all need to understand that truth.

You had time to post this and argue with BrainHurts, but you didn't have the time to type "yes" or "no"?

Ernie, if you'll turn to and follow the advice here and fix your marriage, you will have earned a lot of respect and admiration from us and can probably hang around here helping others as well.

But if you argue with us, I promise that you will never prove that you are respectable. And you'll probably never learn how to stop fighting with your wife, either.

Yes - that would have been best.

"I did not want to talk about it just then - at that point."

The answer is: No, I have not.

Are you going to sign up for an anger management class?

You come off as a very controlling and manipulative person.

This is crucial.

Yup!!

By Ernie's DW's account of the situation, he refused to answer her question and told her he wouldn't because of x, y and z reasons.

Now he's making it seem like he wouldn't answer due to preventing an AO. But wouldn't you have just said nothing and left?

This, to me, isn't adding up.

And if it is true that you were really going to have an AO and had to leave immediately without answering the Q, then your W is in danger here. Because what's going to happen when something more serious happens than a remote being lost?

Hi Ernie, what would you feel about us practicing with you here?

When you pointed out that we all need to understand that truth, it bothered me.

I would like it if�.in the future you could just mention that you are at work and will be back in touch with us later.

****
See�.that is the way that you and Elaina could learn to speak with each other. The way that I just typed above, with the underlines as a suggestion for how to express your thoughts and wishes.

You see, when you told us that we all need to understand that truth, that felt like a demand. We understand that you are at work, but so are many of us, and we aren't getting paid to help out on here.

Next time the remote incident plays out, how about saying "Honey, this constant chaos with the remote bothers me. What do you think of us spending some time tonight to see if we can come up with some solutions regarding the remote that will work for both of us?"

Actually you DID want to talk it about at that point because you told her you wouldn't tell her because she didn't deserve to know. You were mean to her, in other words. Do you think that "being upset" entitles you to be rude and hateful to your wife?

How do you expect her to have any feelings for someone who treats her so shamefully?

Do you understand that truth?

Why the oversized font? Do you mean to shout at us? Are you getting agitated by this discussion?

Ernie, we are just some anonymous folks trying to help you see things the way they are, so you can figure out how to help yourself. If this angers you, you are proving the point that anger management is a real need for you. I hope you get help with this before it's too late.

No, I wasn't shouting - it was more of an admission,that in hindsight, I really wish I had thought of saying it at the time but truly regret not finding those words to say at the moment.


I clearly recall having NOT said anything so disrespectful as this. I swear to God almighty "don't/didn't deserve to know" are words that never left my lips. I would not ever say such a spiteful thing.


If I had decided I do not want help from anyone on here... I would not be here. Simple as that. I find it very disrespectful towards me that you would put words in my mouth like that.
If you want to know how I feel about something, then please just simply ask me: "How do you feel about the help you are getting from this Marriage Builders forum? Do you find the advice is beneficial?" etc. etc.

I get knots in my stomach when I think about doing the online program. I told Elaina I don't know why - - but it is just a gut feeling I have. I think it stems from the feeling that in order for someone to be really, truly able to help me, I need to feel as if they really care about me first. The feeling I have concerning whether the contributors to this thread "care about me or not" is a low percentage. It follows logic: Would I be more inclined to follow the advice of someone who wants to see me succeed? Or should I follow thew advice of someone who is harsh towards me and doesn't place any stock in what I say? I think the answer is clear.

One other thing: It is actually sometimes very difficult to keep coming back here.

I know that some of you have stated you are interested in helping. However, I do not appreciate the manner in which certain things are said to me. If you believe that what I say or think looks & smells like what falls out of the south end of northward facing bull, then that's fine - you can tell me that you feel that way - - - but you don't have to be cruel, spiteful towards me, disrespectful or impolite. I believe you are all capable of doing that.

Or impatient. If I don't answer each post individually, it isn't a slam on you - it is often because I have a limited amount of time to answer only a few posts, and I try to prioritize which to answer next. I don't mean any disrespect if I have not directly addressed yours, and I apologize if you think I was trying to ignore you when I was not.

I understand that some of you think you need to be overly stern with me, but I often dwell on the thought that if Dr. Harley were reading this thread from front to back, he would be really disappointed with the approach some of you taken with your responses towards me. Would you say the things you say to me in the same manner if we were sitting at a table having a cup of coffee?

Consider the comment:
How is it beneficial to me, to phrase this comment in such a way? Is it respectful towards me? If you feel it isn't respectful, than wouldn't an apology be appropriate at this time? Do you think a more appropriate response would have been to simply (and politely) inquire as to why I had not yet answered this question? Maybe my reply would have made sense (time constraints, etc) and it wouldn't have needed to be said the way it was (in an accusing manner).

I expect a higher level of professionalism from those who volunteer to help here on the forum. The acid test is this: If Dr. Harley were sitting next to you as you type your response, would he be pleased with what you said before hitting the "submit" button?

Yes, Ernie - Dr. Harley is quite aware of how his forums are run. I received the same help from him to overcome my abusive tendencies as I am giving to you.

Do you want effective help to stop abusing your wife and start making her happy, or do you want to straighten out strangers on the Internet? Because I guarantee you my friend, you cannot achieve both. If you are going to argue with us, you are probably going to lose your marriage.

If you can learn how to stop arguing with us, you might eventually be able to learn how to stop arguing with your wife. And your marriage cannot afford any more arguments.

Ernie, you are the cruelest, most spiteful, rudest, and most disrespectful poster on this thread. I don't think you get that, and I definitely do not believe you are taking your marriage problems seriously enough. You keep complaining that you do not have time to do the work that is necessary to save your marriage, and yet you have time to write paragraph after paragraph arguing with us.


I don't think any of us care if you slam us or not. We point out that you aren't answering questions because when you fail to answer those you are missing the valuable insights you need to save your marriage.

I don't care if you answer the questions or not. It's no personal offense to me - but the people who are lazy like that and don't answer questions are the ones who end up losing their marriages.

It's about high time to take the cotton out of your ears and stick it in your mouth, son. A wife abuser like you or me is the last person who needs to be lecturing other people about being rude. You don't have to accept the help that is offered here, but you are abusing the hell out of your wife and making her life and her marriage miserable, and it sure sounds like we care about her pain a whole lot more than you do. All you do is argue with those who are trying to help you - those who actually know how to help you, because we have used the principles here to recover our marriages and to help others do the same.

Marital recovery is not for those who are too lazy to answer simple questions. It requires work - not debate.

I was a lousy abusive husband when I came to this board, and you are currently a lousy abusive husband. Your best thinking has ruined your marriage, my friend. You need to stop dispensing wisdom and start looking for help here.

Dr. Harley points out that when you have an angry outburst you are insane and do not remember everything you did.

Well, good night, Ernie - why should we place a lot of stock in what you say when you are ABUSING YOUR WIFE and don't seem to care and don't take the problem seriously?

How do we wake you up, my friend? You are destroying Elena, plain and simple. She can't continue to go on like that. And instead of acting like this is a deadly serious subject, you argue with everybody. You are just here to justify yourself, not to learn, so of course we do not put any stock in what you have to say. We have heard the same excuses and justifications before. Some of us have even offered them ourselves.

Quit acting like you got a speeding ticket and start showing some empathy for your wife and desire to change your actions. Why should anyone take you seriously when you ignore hard questions, dance around the issue, and argue with us ALL. THE. TIME. ?

It doesn't matter WHO or WHAT you were angry with. If you cant control your anger at whatever/whoever while being asked simple question you need help.

You attack your wife and you attack posters here. If you were really were concerned we were posting contrary to Dr H's methods you would contact him or the mods.

For you, the best form of defence is attack.



Well I don't care about you one bit. I might if you did something, anything, worth caring about.

I care about the wife who is being abused far more than you.

You don't need people who 'care' about you because you learned long ago how to manipulate such people.

You need objective people who see through you.

Believe it or not, the answer to your question is yes. You are receiving very solid MB advice, and Dr. Harley has dealt many people in exactly your situation. We are mirroring the advice he gives.

Much of your post is, in essence, a complaint that you are a victim of disrespectful judgements. Disrespectful judgements are a lovebuster that needs to be avoided when dealing with those that we want to love us. We do not care to make love bank deposits with you. We do not care if you love us. We will tell you the truth. If that seems disrespectful to you, so be it. You are a man with very serious anger management problems. While you might have success gaslighting those close to you, it doesn't work with us. We have seen it too many times.

Ernie, do you understand that what you are doing is abuse? Your wife should separate from you until you realize and correct your abusive behaviour. You are too angry to live in a home with another person. A person should not be treated in this manner. Good luck, but only you can fix this.

We are not being paid to tell you what you wish to hear. You are being told an unbiased view, based on your own account of what happened.

And we expect a higher level of seriousness from someone who professes to be trying to save his marriage. All we see here is a glimpse of the reasons your marriage is falling apart. Instead of addressing the points made in the posts, you deflect, deny and blame. A distraction strategy designed to take the focus off your abhorrent behavior.

Your marriage is hanging by a thread and here you are wasting valuable time criticizing and scrutinizing your volunteer's posting style. Has it occurred to you that the posters you are condemning have solved their marriage problems? ..................and you have NOT?

I will tell you what they told me when I joined AA in 1985 and was doing the same thing you are doing here: take the cotton out of your ears and put it in your mouth.

If you want to make it, that is what you will do.

Bingo, ML.

Ernie, I was 9 weeks pregnant with a 20 month old. I packed my bags and was ready to buy a plane ticket back home. You were my husband. He smartened up and realized what he was doing. Your wife WILL LEAVE YOU if you do not stop this abuse. Women leave men for two reasons - another man, and abuse. You are in the second category, which fortunately for you, is something you can fix TODAY.

So, while you have time to argue us for paragraphs, why not take some of that time to follow the program? This thread is from October. You don't watch TV and you can argue with us, you have time to do the program. You don't want to change, that's why you said no, isn't it?

Ernie, I was your wife 2 years ago - I'm not afraid of you - so I'm going to tell you how serious this is.

Bingo. This is the problem, right here.

God gave Elena a husband to care for her, and he is doing the exact opposite of that. Strangers on the Internet care more for her than her husband, who would rather prove he is doing all he can than learn what more he can do.

Is the advice brutally honest? Yes. Is it uncomfortable? Yes. Most of us are matter of fact and to the point. Think of your marriage as a math problem. What you have is a committee of mathematicians telling you how to solve the problem. We're showing you what to plug in for X and Y. You're getting answers from those that have already solved the problem.

Does it impact me if your marriage doesn't survive? No. But I'd like to see it be a success.

We're not here to love and care for you. That's what your wife is for. We're trying to help you so that you feel loved and cared for by your wife. We're not here to high five you. We're here to help if you want the help.

Essentially we've given you a checklist of what to do to make this situation better. What you should be doing is going down the checklist and then asking "Done it. What's next?"

[quote=alis
We are not being paid to tell you what you wish to hear. [/quote]

No, but I do expect a level of communication that is not belittling to me. I am internally conflicted, because y'all are saying you are not belittling me... but it sure feels like it to me. If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, etc...
I don't come here because I enjoy getting beaten up by posters in this thread. I come here because I want good advice (which can effectively be received and properly implemented) and NOT personal attacks against me.

You do want to reach through and get to me, correct? (mentally). Do you hear me say: "You are going about it the wrong way by attacking me"?

Is not that the reason you post on this thread? Because you see my faults, and wish it to point them out to me so that I can correct the error of my ways. That is also why I am here. I want good solid advice that is presented in a way that does not make me feel like I am under attack.

Right, wrong or otherwise - - - If I feel like I am being attacked, I will shut down mentally. That is the fastest way to get someone (even me) to stop listening to your advice. I am not different than anyone else in that respect. You might say I am wrong for saying that, but I am not going to deny that it actually happens.

It's the same exact thing with why I was so hesitant to get involved with marriage builders... remember the thread I started back in 10/23/12?
Here it is: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/u...in=167470&Number=2676546#Post2676546

I am really quite reluctant to receive advice as easily when I feel it is being presented in a way that is lacking tact and consideration. I feel like that just isn't too much to ask of you to do.

Please take that into careful consideration, and tell me why I am wrong if you disagree with me.

I care for her far more than you think I do.

SHE IS the only reason I am here. I want my marriage to succeed.

Posters on this thread think they are helping me by being rude, but it isn't working.

Yes, but I do not deserve to be belittled in the process. I deserve better than that. This is similar to: "You can catch a lot more flies with honey than vinegar", and I feel I am certainly in the dill pickle jar right now.

If you really want my heart to be open and receptive to listening, lay off of the vinegar some.


I don't want that. I DO NOT expect sweetness or love, but I do expect to be treated like a normal human being.

Ernie,

There is no other way to say it other than that you are abusing your wife.

Do you realize that your behaviour is abusive? Ernie, you are so angry that people cannot even express thoughts without you stating they are rude, attacking, whatever.

This is really no different than what Elaina experienced in the remote incident. A simple statement is met with anger and belittlement.

It's not us Ernie. It's your perception of reality, it is so clouded by your anger that it has crippled your life. You really need professional help.

Please, above all else, at least read markos' posts. He was you, once upon a time.

None of this addresses the problems in your marriage.

You are still trying to change the subject which tells me you are not taking this seriously. Let us know when you get serious. Until you get serious, you are just wasting the valuable time of board members. We are all volunteers here who have already saved our marriages. We owe you nothing.

Let us know when you get serious.

Ernie,
You may care for her more than we think you do. As a wife who has been on the receiving end of similar abuse, I assure you that your wife does NOT feel loved and cared for when you mistreat her this way, and I'd imagine that she is rapidly losing the love that she feels for you.

My husband felt that because HE knew that he loved me and our children, that meant we "should" know it too. He couldn't see how his words were killing us, because he didn't "intend" for that to happen. If he was abusive, that would've made him a "bad" person and he didn't want to accept that.

Just because you don't think you are abusive doesn't mean you aren't. Your wife knows it. The posters here know it too. That's why they are telling you to stop the abuse and show TRUE love and care to your wife - before it's too late. Instead of doing this, you are arguing and deflecting. I recognize those tactics well. Your wife deserves so much better!! And the thing is - this will benefit you as well. You'll be so much happier too.

I see no credible evidence that you want your marriage to succeed. I see just the opposite. If you were serious, you would be discussing solutions to your marriage problems and not trying to create needless distractions.

We are right back to the same conversation we had with you a couple of weeks ago, Ernie. You think this is all no big deal. A mere speeding ticket.

What is care?

Do you treat her better than anyone else in the entire world?
Do you always speak to her in a pleasant, loving tone?
Do you always consider her feelings above all others?
Are you radically honest with her?
Are you careful to avoid doing anything that hurts her?
Are you ever thoughtless and inconsiderate?
Are you ever disrespectful?
Do you ever lie to her?

I could go on and on, but answer this question:
Are you the source of your wife's greatest happiness or her greatest unhappiness?

But how, when I am feeling so weary? (letting you know?)

I really am starting to convince myself I am caught in some strange, twisted parody of "Anger Management" (Adam Sandler/Jack Nicholson) where I am being pushed to some bizarre breaking point of submission to the board in order to have a successful marriage. My logic and emotions interfere with the stream in information. It wears me down to the point where I feel like extraneous circumstances are interfering with the implementation of any advice I should be following. It's like all the pieces of the puzzle aren't here... I've got the border finished but can't fill in the rest because it's all so jumbled.

It's like drinking "sour" water from a firehose. I can take a bitter pill one at a time, but not an entire handful. This thread has gone so far off the rails I don't even know which direction to turn to get the train back on and rolling again. I definitely need to find some peace before I can make any forward progress.
Until that happens y'all have lost me.............

Ernie, do you understand that you have been abusive to Elaina?

Maybe not what you can see....... all you ever hear about is the "bad", the "good" is almost never mentioned on MB. Maybe twice? That is so discouraging to me.

None of the "good" matters as long as you continue your abusive behavior.

Have you signed up for anger management yet?

You say you can only take one pill at a time...

Here's your first pill Ernie - admit and acknowledge the problem.

Fortunately we do. All you need to do is go back and start answering all the questions that were asked of you. Just start from the beginning and work through.

Because your need for praise and positivity distracts you from the real problems. You have, in the past SEVERAL posts, ignored the basic difficult questions (DO YOU RECOGNIZE THIS AS ABUSE - WILL YOU ATTEND PROFESSIONAL HELP) by demanding a "softer" approach or to be led gently.

I give up, Ernie. I'll be happy to help you when you are ready to listen to me and answer questions and follow suggestions instead of arguing. Until then, I wish you will.

Goodbye.

Yes, I understand that I have been... to a HUGE (not shouting) degree in the past, and I feel like I work (and have been working) really really really really really really really really really really hard to not be abusive anymore.

I feel the remote was an event that was just the last straw on the camel's back" of a greater number of other stressful events that have been occurring recently. I am terribly sorry and I have apologized to Elaina, and she says she forgives me.

I want to keep moving forward!!! (shouting very loudly with great enthusiasm!!) That is my goal - I need to be in a frame of mind that keeps me moving and working at this. I need something positive to look forward to. Not a constant stream of negative comments that do not have any positive result.

Andrew Wommack says you have to visualize yourself succeeding and visualize healing for it to become manifest. That is what I need to do... I can't deal with all the threats about how my wife should be leaving me, that doesn't do ANYTHING good for my forward progress! I need to know that there is a light at he end of the tunnel and that I CAN get to it! That is what I need more than anything right now! Getting beaten down makes me want to think there is no hope and to just give up.

Yes, I have a problem!!! But I WANT to succeed!! I really do!

I understand this, when I was trying to make changes but we were just crashing into one crisis after another, it was hard to get momentum to keep going. What helped me was to make a list - RC, FC, UA, whatever was my goal, and post about that. What is a step you can identify this week, so you can check it off, add something else next week, and see positive change building over time?

Some suggestions would be the paystub thing or anger management, or maybe there is something else you two are working on this week that you would like to share?

What is discouraging to us is that you are not focusing on changing the bad behavior. The benefits of the "good" are all wasted when you commit Lovebusters like you did in this instance.

You cannot afford ANY Lovebusters so of course that is what we should be focusing on because if you don't knock it off, you are not going to be married for long.

Ahhh, yes - - several weeks ago you had asked if I had been through from beginning to end. I need to do that and post a really long post concerning all points brought to my attention.

Prisca, I am not enrolled in an anger management course.

So will you sign up for anger management?

I REALLY TRULY do want to stop all lovebusters from ever occurring again.

I just struggle so much at times to be 100% fault-free that is burdens me mentally to where I feel like I am always on eggshells hoping to never "slip up". It's a lot of pressure to deal with.

What's wrong with hoping never to slip up?

"Yes, I understand that I have been... to a HUGE (not shouting) degree in the past, and I feel like I work (and have been working) really really really really really really really really really really hard to not be abusive anymore.

I feel the remote was an event that was just the last straw on the camel's back" of a greater number of other stressful events that have been occurring recently. I am terribly sorry and I have apologized to Elaina, and she says she forgives me."

Your behavior over the remote was inexusable so don't try to excuse it. There is no excuse. And she might have "forgiven" you (which is a terrible idea) but her forgiveness does not replace the massive damage you did to her lovebank.

Being upset does not entitle you to behave like a jerk. A person who is really sorry does not cite the alleged wrongdoings of others because they understand they are solely responsible for their own business behavior.

You say you get it, but when you continue to point to the behavior of others in conjunction with your own Lovebusters that tells me otherwise.

Good, you've admitted it.

Stop minimizing and you need to remove "in the past".

How? Have you signed up to anger management? Are you going to take Markos' suggestion and start responding to other questions on this thread?

I heard this a LOT from my husband. He just wanted to "move forward", which meant, "come on Strongerme. I've told you I'm sorry and I'm going to "do better". Let's "move forward" (but I don't need to go to anger management or work the marriage builders program.)

Visualization is good. I can visualize that I am at my goal weight and goal fitness level too, but I actually have to DO something to achieve it!

All about you...guess what? Your wife can't deal with your abuse. Maybe she's about to give up. Step up!

Ernie, this ^ is the best advice you will ever receive.

Do you understand what Melody is saying?

Dr. H speaks of building up the LoveBank as feeling as if you have to literally fill a pond with TEASPOONS of sand in order to build an island. It takes forEVER to do the positive things to build that island one teaspoon at a time. And then if a storm comes through (LOVEBUSTERS), ALL of that work can be wiped out in a nano-second.

You're blinded by the forest instead of looking at the trees. We're not threatening or advocating your wife leave you. We're telling you if you don't make changes, she will.

Those of us posting to you have been in the same boat. We're no longer in that boat.

I would start with 2 things. Look up anger management courses to start learning how to deal with frustrations. And read a chapter a night in the Love Busters book.

It is even more pressure to lose your wife.

Once you get into the habit of behaving respectfully, no matter what, it will come naturally. Walking on eggshells while you are retraining yourself is not a bad thing.

I owe a huge apology to everyone for my behavior when posting this morning; I acted in a very undignified manner.

I was involved with a situation at work where an employee responsible for an area (even though another employee committed the actual infraction) was facing his "third strike" and it was my call to push him forward towards the termination process. It would have had a negative ripple effect (not just at work, but most assuredly his home life) and it was an amazingly stressful and difficult situation which took incredible effort to resolve without violating corporate ethics policies. I am glad it has been resolved, and I am sorry to all for my emotionally charged, irrational, and unprofessional posts.

Wow, I really need to advice on how to wind down from stress. A ride on the Harley does wonders but I can't leave work just yet....

So will you be signing up for anger management?

Ernie,

I wish i were ad fortunate as you where the faults that are under your control were discussed with me by my Wife.

You are being given a multi-step instruction manual, BUT you need to follow it to make your marriage happy, which means both you and your Wife.

How about one simple task to get started?

Did you give your wife the paycheck stubs yet, or any bank account information?

If yes, then say so and when it was accomplished.

If No, then what prevented you from doing something so simple?

Will that be done today?

That is already a several week old issue that seemed to be agreed to.

Actions speak louder than all of your words, rants or excuses.

It is mind boggling to watch and see that you don't get it.

LTL

Markos posted an article to you yesterday that covers this topic.

It is a shame that he quit posting to you. Having been where you are, he is probably the best person on this board that can help you.