Wise Counsel,

Wife of 19 years has had enough. Wants H (me) to stick around 5 more years until out 13-yr old is out of the house.
W has no intention of meeting H's EN. H tries to meet W's, but apparently, hashing/rehashing sins of the past comes under the EN topic of conversation and her being understood. And I cannot do that after we've discussed them already for years.

I've presented Dr H's plan to revive Romance, but she's of the opinion that she knows all Dr H's principles and practices them, and I'm the one who doesn't. Therefore, she has no interest in reviving.

She complains of my disdain for her, when the facts are, I'm the one always taking the blame for our problems, do the few remaining things she'll do with me together (family functions) or do for her (perhaps fill her car up with gas) and she is the one refusing to "like" me, all the while pinning all problems on me.

I am desperate to do the right thing. Is the right thing hanging around in a loveless marriage? Is the right thing to keep discussing the same questions re: past sins, that I've have given my best answers to many times already, for years.

Clueless and lonely,
Remark

What are you doing that upsets her so much? What are her complaints about you?

Would she fill out this questionnaire for you? http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forms/MaritalProblemAnalysis.pdf

Will she come here and post her perspective to us?

It sounds like your wife has tried the Marriage Builders program, but something hasn't worked for her, and she has lost hope. I suspect that if you could figure out what didn't work right and fix it, it would go a long way toward giving her hope again.

I can see right off one problem in your post: you dismiss her complaint instead of addressing it. For example, she complains of your disdain for her - in Marriage Builders terms, that means she is complaining that you are disrespectful, a love buster. You need to get some help from us or Dr. Harley or one of the coaches in the Marriage Builders office to find out how you are being disrespectful to her and fix it. The way you are posting about her complaint is the wrong approach, and would cause any woman to lose hope.

For goodness sake, quit taking blame for the problems in your marriage. Blame assigning is counterproductive to fixing the marriage. You have to address her complaints - find out what you are doing or saying that she feels is disdainful, and stop doing it! Don't debate about what "the facts are," like you do in this paragraph:

That does not help at all. You do something that she feels is disrespectful, and there is no hope if you are not willing to change that. If you immediately debate it every time she brings it up, she is not going to have any hope that you will ever fix the disrespect, or any other marital problem.

Nope.

She wanted to use a forum. I'm new to this forum stuff. I suggested MB as I listen to it pretty regularly and had heard Joyce mention it. W suggested TalkAboutMarriage.com. So, we did last weekend. She says she's done as of last night though now. With great struggle (learning how to learn to use the forum, create ID, thread, etc.), I created a thread 'Can you rebuild a marriage without communication?' because she doesn't want to talk anymore except through a forum. Why? Because, from her perspective, I don't answer her Q's. From my perspective, I've answered those same questions to my best abilities already. (It's rhetorical to think you can have a relationship without communicating.)
Thanks
Thanks

No, the right thing to do is to start fixing it! In a healthy marriage, husband and wife are receptive to each other's complaints and use that information to adjust their behavior to stop doing things that make the other unhappy and start doing things that will make them happier.

The complaints have to be received with no defense at all. Otherwise, you'll miss the information contained in them and never adjust. This will keep the marriage loveless forever.


The right thing to do is to change the present so that those past sins could never happen again. For example, if you had an affair, make sure you have no opposite sex friendships and your wife is invited to check up on you and you provide complete transparency (all bank accounts, passwords, phones, etc.). Or if you used to be on drugs, rule out friends who did/do drugs from your life. Meanwhile, get rid of what is causing unhappiness in the present - unhappiness in the present that doesn't feel like it will ever be fixed tends to cause people to start going over the unhappy events of the past all over again.

What are her questions that she says you don't answer?

What do you do or say that she feels is disdainful?

No.

Many past hurts over the 19 years, the recurring topic of conversation with her.

Will do.

Thanks,
Markos

I'll need to re-read this a few more times (at home)to be able to say 'I got it'.

Thanks

What do you do or say that she finds disdainful? I didn't see an answer. We can help you if you'll be more specific in your answers.

What questions does she ask that she says you don't answer? Please be specific.

We did HN, HN 18 years ago and LB after that. She gets the concepts. She's very smart, remembers everything and can negotiate me under the table. She has been much better at meeting my EN than I hers.
She has definfed, rigid boundaries. I have flxible, if at all, boundaries, I'm told.

Her question; Background first: She ( my trophy wife) and I married 19 years ago, 2 years after my divorce. I had 4 kids JL/JP custody of. 13-14 years ago, son would come home from school, and forget to do his chores one of which was to set the
kitchen table for dinner. Yet, he'd do it if someone reminded him. I had a hard time disciplining him first thing when I got home from work. This became issue. When we discussed with partor/counselor. He looked at me and said 'That's and easy one, discipline him.' So, I got on board.

Her question: Why did I take his advice, but not hers?
My answer: "Because I perceived him as more objective, not coming from her ( subjective ) persepective, or my (subjective) perspective. And, like I said, I hated to discipline him first thing when I got home, and he has two sets of rules ( one at my house, and virtually none at his mother's) so I could easily see his difficulty, understand difficulty in remembering to set the table. And recall, he does it without arguing if you ask him." But, that answer doesn't compute in her mind, intelligent as it is.

That help?
Thanks

Remark, the reason she keeps bringing up past wrongs is because they have not been corrected in the present. For example, instead of considering her feelings and negotiating a solution about your son, you valued the opinion of your pastor. The problem with that is that a) it ignored your wife's feelings and b) you are not married to your pastor so it doesn't matter if you took his advice or not.

The MB solution to that problem would be to find a solution that made you both happy. we find solutions that are win/win, that enhance the marriage.

So yes you were wrong to take the pastors opinion over your wife's feelings. HOWEVER, you should not have disciplined your child AT ALL until you found a solution that made you both happy. We don't care about what the pastor said, but about what would make you and the wife happy.

And neither of you are using MB concepts or you would not be fighting like you are. Will your wife come here and let us work with her too?

TAM does not have a marriage program and MB does.

It sounds to me like the pressing problem is that you ignore her complaints. She had a complaint about the issue with your son. She brought it to you and nothing changed. If you're like most men, you probably gave a response about how you thought everything was okay.

Basically it took dragging you to a counselor to get you to address that one complaint.

I'm sure she has hundreds of complaints. If you want a happy marriage, you have to get in the habit of addressing them (making an actual change) without her feeling like it is a big ordeal. You have to develop a habit of soliciting and inviting her complaints and feedback on the job you are doing as a husband, and get in the habit of making changes that address her complaints, promptly. Otherwise she will (rightly) feel discouraged.

Complaints fall into two categories. First off is things you are doing that bother her. STOP doing those and look for alternatives. Simple. (Deceptively simple.) Second is things she would like you to do - like in this case, fix the problem with your son. TAKE CARE of those in ways that you are enthusiastic about, and if you are not enthusiastic about what she wants, brainstorm together with her and find a way to meet her need that you are enthusiastic about, or else you will be leaving her unhappy.

I think what is needed is not an answer to "Why did you listen to the counselor, but not me?" I think the question she needs answered is "Are you going to address my complaints on your own, or not?" If the answer is "not," then she probably won't stay with you.

In a good marriage, complaints are encouraged, and husband and wife make changes based on their spouse's complaints.

In a bad marriage, complaints are usually met with an answer as to why the spouse shouldn't feel that way - why their complaint is not reasonable - why things have to be the way they are - etc. This kind of response usually causes people to give up complaining. Eventually they are so unhappy they divorce.

We can help you learn to be more responsive to your wife's complaints so that she doesn't feel so frustrated that she wants to leave you.

Couple extra questions:

Have you read the Basic Concepts on this webpage? They present the Marriage Builders material in a little different way from HNHN and LB, especially if you read them a long time ago. There are several pages in the Basic Concepts that are very applicable to your situation.

How did your first marriage end?

OK,I'll read the current 'Basic Concepts'.

I ordered SAA, and new copies of HNHN and LB as we gave them to our church library a while back. Just finished read HWSW a few weeks ago.

1st wife left me, probably for similar reasons. (I was her 2nd H. She and her boss, pastor of our church both divorced at same time, ran around together for a year or so, but didn't marry.) She remarried yet another guy and divorced him after 2-3 years. He was a good guy I thought.

No, W won't work with MB. Said she knows the concepts as read the books years ago and practices those concepts. Says I;m the one with the issues, and one who doesn't follow (1) what the books advise and (2) do what I say I'm going to do.

Thanks

I know how much it hurts to be told "you are the problem" even if it is true. I've been through this lately- wanted to work with wife on MB, she has read some of the stuff, but seemed reluctant. She was reluctant basically because I didn't really show her that I was serious about it. That is changing rapidly, I'm happy to say.

I finally figured out, through the advice of this forum, that I will have to lead. I bet your wife will come around pretty quick when you show some real change for a while. It will be frustrating because she might be committing some love busters, which you would like to address, but it won't work until there is a lot of units in her love bank.

It is mostly us men that need to do the changing. That was a very difficult concept to get through my head, and I still struggle with it sometimes.

But its true- women for the most part have wanted integrated marriages for a long time while men were pretty happy with the way its been for thousands of years.

Thanks, Neer, for your relative encouragement.

W is so withdrawn, she won't discuss anything with me. She feels I value others' opinions over hers. So, she directs me to 'ask a 3rd party'. This puts me in a Catch-22 of committing the LB of independent decision making.

POJA is impossible with a non-communicative spouse.

Thoughts?

There are schooling decisions for our 13 yr-old son to deal with. Our 4 other kids (from my prior marriage) are out of the house now.

W 50
H 59
Son 13

Thanks

I�m ashamed to say that for 20 years, I neglected my wife�s interests and needs in preference to many of mine. She invested in me and my 4 kids more than I did her interests and her two cats. When my kids had ballgames, she�d come watch them and me as I coached. When we went camping and boating, she�d engage, invest and participate.
I have been guilty of the LB independent behavior especially in the past few years. In the past few years, she has not wanted to do anything with me including going to church. She also dropped out of the bible study group we�d been in for years and I kept on going to it. Another thing I also did was, a few years ago, I started playing softball with my two adult daughters who have a similar passion for softball. (I had the similar privilege of playing softball with my father and brother many years ago when we were all adults. Both of those experiences are very high on my list of joys in life.)

We read Dr Harley�s His Needs, Her Needs, nineteen years ago. I recall discussing the independent behavior issue back then. But, I thought it was too radical regarding independent behavior. And, in recent years when my wife stopped doing things with me, I thought it surely, did not refer to going to church, bible study or playing softball with your daughters. I disagreed with it until just the past few months when things have come to a head. So, I have retired from softball, I�m watching church online and giving up the bible study group that we�d both been in for ten years, but she stopped going about three years ago.
It may be too little, too late.
I love this woman. She has been a tremendously blessing for these twenty years. I regret with all my heart how I have disappointed and neglected her. Even with her neglecting me the past few years, I understand why she has resorted to that and I still love her/
Because of finally agreeing with Dr Harley's aversion to independent behavior. But wife now does not. She says " you worked too hard for too long for us to give up IB".
I am �all in� for the complete Harley program, but can�t be foolish.
Any ideas, anybody?
Thanks, Remark
My MB handle is Remark, and my wife�s MB handle is JustDaytoDay
We married 20 yrs ago when I had four kids from 1st marriage. It was her first marriage. We have one child together.

What has changed over the last year since you posted?

Have you 'led' the MB program, as was advised in one post?

Have you followed the policy of Undivided Attention, spending 15 hours of enjoyable time together a week (minimum)?

What have you done to stop love busting with your IB? What have you done to put your wife's feeling above your family?

Little has changed. I listen to MB every day, but have not led us out of our darkness.
UA is an issue because she wants little to do with me because she feels like I treat her disrespectfully.
Yes, recently, I have stopped all IB.
I've seen my family less than in the past, though we are planning on seeing them for a couple of days Thanksgiving.
I think I put my wife's feelings above my family's feelings, but sometimes not above my own.

I believe in the Harley principles and work hard applying them.

In addition to these excellent questions. Do you have the book Love Busters?

Yes. Have many of the Harley books.
Working hard to put them into complete practice.

How are you treating her disrespectfully? What bothers her? What would she say is her top complaints about you?

I found your wife's thread and she is pretty clear that the problems are a) love busters and b) that you place your family over her. She said that you once went 60 days without seeing them and basically badgered and punished her:

here

She also noted that you usually will agree to anything but follow through on nothing.

From these posts, I've learned that my approach is all wrong. I have approached it by asking for advice on how to 'change my wife' rather than having the focus on what I am doing wrong, and what I can do to fix myself. I've deferred blame rather than accept responsibility and taken personal self correction. So, if you would please read on, please help me understand what I am doing that is defensive or belligerent such that she feels disrespected. Please focus on telling me what I can do to fix me, what I am missing in my interactions with her, that is disrespectful in anyway.
Thank you, in advance.

Friday, we had this e-mail exchange over the course of the entire day:
(She is 'S' and I am 'M')
***********************************************
Beginning of exchange:

S: I don't think we have the same vision for the future.
M: Why do you think that?
S: Well, for example, I think you're an [censored] to me, and you don't think you are. That's pretty incompatible.
M: Yes, I understand that you think I�m an [censored] to you and I agree that�s pretty incompatible. I�ll have to learn at least respond to you and your opinions better than I have in the past. I believe that, though I am slower to embrace Harley principles than you, if you believe in them, then we are closer in a vision than you might think.
S: Believing in Harley is different than applying Harley. I don't believe you and I have the same vision for applying it. Specifically, your current application does not resemble my vision for applying Harley.
M: I take it that is because, for 20 years, I didn�t give up my independent behavior hobbies, right? Well, I do now and I�m applying it now. Maybe it will take some time for you to see that. Or, are you still talking specifically to LB�s and me being an [censored] to you?
S: Specifically to LB's and you being an [censored] to me. I think you are committing LB's, you think you're not. Different vision.
M: OK, let�s keep track of that for a while, LB�s. Please point them out as they occur, whether it�s me committing them or you. I think you probably do already, but just the same, I�ll renew my sensitivity to that as I�m the one asking for them.
S: My point is that when I do point yours out, you don't agree that it is a LB, or even a problem for that matter. And vice versa. Different vision.
M: You�re right. It would seem the only solution is to eliminate them.
S: Both of us are unlikely to eliminate LB's that we don't recognize as being LB's.
M: I believe I know mine, but I would appreciate you telling me still when I commit them, for I don�t recognize many of mine as I don�t see myself as any more argumentative ( respectfully said) than you.
S: I believe you know yours as you see them, and I know mine as I see them. But we have a different vision so we don�t see the same ones or see them the same way. When I point out something you did as being a LB, you immediately responded with, �No, it�s not,� which some might consider argumentative.
M: OK, point taken and acknowledged. I�ll be more sensitive to that aspect of my defensiveness characteristic, and refrain from it.
S: Aren't you already working on that? Your defensiveness issue?
M: Yes, Always.
S: Then that's obviously not a solution to the problem. I find it very frustrating when you commit to do something ("I'll be more sensitive re: defensiveness, refrain from it") that you've already committed to do, yet are obviously not doing because you keep committing to it again and again. Your words of commitment have become trite and your indifference to that fact make your intentions appear insincere.
M: I can understand that. I don�t know what to say to that except prove it over time.
S: Which unfortunately brings us right back to the beginning. You're unlikely to work on something that you don't think is a problem, so you are unlikely to prove anything. If you were going to prove something, you've had more than ample time to do so.
M: Well, like the IB, independent behavior, you�ll see it when you see it. That�s all I know to say.
S: Granted, I finally "saw" it, but not until long after I no longer cared. Is that a good example of what you're looking for in our future Harley relationship? If so, I can do that, and you can take your time proving it, or not do it at all.
M: Fine, Yes, that�s all I can ask for at this point. (Notice how I�m now making sure a d definitive �Yes� or �No� is clear. A lesson learned.) I assume you will need proof in everything from here on out.
S: I don't need you to prove anything, I've stopped expecting it and have redefined my life accordingly. With independent behavior, even though you've finally given it up, I'm not giving mine up because I no longer care if you do or not. Proving it at this point was moot. If your example of independent behavior works for you, then how are we not already there? ( ... and we're back to the original point of us having different visions.)
M: Maybe this is what we should talk with Dr H about, different visions as we talk about independent behavior. The difference I think is my vision is in line with an interdependent, improved marriage based on all I�ve learned. Yours might improve the marriage from your perspective, but seems counter to Harley teachings. But, that� fine as you�re not trying to be a Harley spouse at this point, though you proved you can be in the past.
S: But if your example of addressing independent behavior is acceptable to you (ie. better late than never), then why aren't we already there? You're free to get around to proving 'it' whenever you get around to it -- or not, and I'm free to ignore it if you ever do. My vision of the future does not include applying Harley's principles.
M: Does your vision include us staying together or having an improved marriage?
S: You must have missed my question, let me repeat it for you again. If your example of addressing independent behavior is acceptable to you (ie. better late than never; still meets your definition of applying Harley), then why aren't we(you) already there?
M: Because I don�t see our marriage being better in your vision. Mine, under Harley�s principles, I do see us both being in a better marriage. If that doesn�t answer your Q, I don�t understand what you�re referring to.
S: Your vision only improves the marriage from your perspective. I don't see it the same way you do. I have a different perspective. Your approach is not matching my vision of Harley.
M: What then is your vision of a Harley marriage?
S: It doesn't matter, It's different, and endless hours of discussion about it has not changed your perspective. So now what?
M: I didn�t get anything out of that. Now what? You�re suggesting living together for Jake until you decide to leave? Is that where you�re camped?
S: The question was to you. I'm still trying to get your plan on applying Harley when you and I don't have the same perspective on what that would look like.
M: That�s what I was trying to ID, the differences in what that would look like. What are those differences? Let�s start with our common ground, OK? Don�t we both agree that what we have now is dysfunctional? Don�t we both agree with Harley in that in the long term, our marriage cannot be sustained at the status quo? Doesn�t Harley make sense that, over the long term, we have to do be of value to the other spouse and meet EN�s? (I saying that�s in YOUR best interest, not just mine.) Don�t we both want a spouse we respect and want to be around, do things with, and find interesting? I believe the answers to all those are �yes�. So, what are the differences in �vision� you�re referring to?
S: This is where you go back to the beginning of this conversation. I already said, for example, I think you're an [censored] to me and you think you're not. You're the one that claims to want to do this, so I'm not going to do the work for you. I'm just asking how your plan addresses the differences. If you can't even see the differences, then I feel it's not a very good plan.
M: I understand you think I�m an [censored] to you. So, I�m at all costs NOT going to be an [censored] to you. �differences in Harley vision� is a different topic, though, isn�t it? I�m not connecting those two concepts. I don�t see where I�m �asking you to do the work�. I�m trying to understand you, what you�re talking about.
S: Do you agree that you and I had a differing perspective on Independent Behavior, for about 20 years? For example?
M: Absolutely. I thought it was OK in moderation despite what Harley said (in book). You were more aligned with Harley.
S: But for 20 years, nothing I said could convince you otherwise. So *today*, I'm not interested in going thru that pointless exercise with you anymore. I believe that *today*, you are still going to do what you want to do, regardless of what I say, because that is what makes you happy.
M: OK. I don�t think it is a spouses� job to �tell the other what to do�, anyway. That would be akin to selfish demands, I think. They can express their wishes, their LB�s, and their EN�s, and their opinions. Right? It�s all a balance. I can�t place the entire responsibility of my happiness on you, and vice versa. We can express our desires from our spouses. Yet, both spouses have a responsibility to the other to please them as best as possible. I know I�ve failed at that for 20 years. Does that make sense?
S: Your responses are getting rambly again. Please keep it short.
Somehow you twisted my 20 years of sharing my differing interpretation of Harley to "telling you what to do." How?
M: Sorry, I quoted it from what I thought you said above in yellow. I misread the yellow as �tell you what to do �. My Bad. No, I wasn�t interpreting the last 20 years of you telling me what to do. I thought that was something you said above. No, I am not advocating anyone �tell the other what to do�. Sorry for that confusion.
S: I know "what" you did, I want to know "How?" Or "Why?" It's typed in black and white, yet you automatically took the offensive.
M: I simply misread it which cause my misunderstanding. My attention to detail has always been a problem. Yes, it�s type in black and white. Yet, I still misread it.
S: I have a different perspective. Mine is that this has been a long-term, recurring problem. You have a trigger finger on "being controlled," yet I have never "told you what to do." It's a huge LB for me because your issue manifests itself as false accusations against me, but for you, it's no big deal, "simply misread/misunderstanding." And since it's not a big deal for you, it never changes, and so I'm looking for the door. Do you see how this works? Simple, like clockwork, all starting with you.
M: Yes, I do see how it all starts with me. Despite all of the above, all I want to do is be in love and harmony with my spouse.
S: If you honestly believe that, then how do you explain 20 years of doing the things that have accomplished exactly the opposite? It can't be ignorance because I was protesting loudly all along, so your choices were made while fully aware of my unhappiness and our lack of "harmony." My logical/rational mind tells me that what you really want is something different than Harley, something more akin to having your cake and eating it too. And therein lies the crux of the difference in our visions of Harley.
M: I can only explain it as selfishness and seeing myself as normal when unhealthily comparing us to other folks. I don�t witness that only single people get to play softball, or golf or go to church or bible study. So, seeing and knowing that blinded me and lent in to my neglect of your wishes. I�m more of a believer and student of Harley now.
S: I hear you say that with your words, but your current actions still evidence something different. You still have a "control" trigger, regardless of being a believer of Harley. You still compare yourself to others, and selectively to make the case you want to make. "Selfishness" is the exact opposite of a happy marriage, and yet you still are. You've just redirected what it is you want now.
M: I know that it is unhealthy to compare, which is why I highlighted it in yellow. And, I was representing it in the context of the question, in the past. I�m not demanding anything now. I�m simply quoting Harley in that you can let your giver give all it wants now, but ultimately, it will resent it. �Ultimately�, means long term, future, like after 20 years, where you are.
S: (I'm not connecting your response regarding "giving" to anything above.) My comments were NOT in the context of the past (see blue highlights above.) In the present, you are still selfish, and you are still comparing. And I repeat, t herein lies the crux of the difference in our visions of Harley.
M: �Giver� and �Taker� are Harley terms. When dating, both parties are usually givers, sacrificing gladly for their date/spouse, as you have for 20 years. But, Givers ultimately get burned out and their Takers take over. I agree, selfishness is an enemy of a good marriage. And, I agree, I�ve been a taker most of the 20 years.
S: First I find it incredibly offensive when you explain Harley to me. Please don't. Ever. I said I couldn't connect it to anything we were talking about. At this point, I don't care, so just drop it.
Second, I said you are trigger-happy NOW, you are selfish NOW, you are comparing NOW. Not. The. Past.
M: I'm really not seeing my selfishness or trigger happiness. Why would you say that?
S: We just talked about your having a trigger finger about control (see your yellow highlights above.) But you still don't see that? This last statement of yours confirms my point above, that you're not going to change something that you can't see (see green highlight above).
M: Both of us are unlikely to eliminate LB's that we don't recognize as being LB's. OK, I have had a hair-trigger reaction to control. I can see that. I�ve felt for my entire adult like that �I don�t focus on changing my spouse (consciously), so she shouldn�t be trying to change me.� I now know that Harley says that (paraphrased� �If you�re going to be married, then you must be willing to change�. So, I am.
S: Would you also like to take a moment to defend/explain/rationalize/justify/excuse your selfishness and comparisons as well?
M: No thanks. I�d rather not be defensive, etc.
S: So what scale are you using to determine that you're not still selfish?
M: A scale of me making no demands, me letting you and Jake pick the shows we watch on TV, go or not go places, the scale of my personal depression and lack of joy due to our disharmony and confusion of how to fix things.
S: What scale measure you rejecting the separation because you don't want to pay rent? What scale measure you rejecting the separation because you don't want to go into debt? What scale measures your trigger about being controlled? What scale measures that independent behavior was fine when you wanted to do it, but not fine when I want to do it? Do any of these qualify as selfish to you?
M: I�m measuring all of the above based on a wisdom element as well. I don�t have a good answer. It may be selfless, but foolish to do leave or pay rent, or go into huge debt. What control thing(s) have I �trigger� reacted to of late? Do any of these qualify as selfish to you? No, I don�t think so. I think that negotiating between spouses allows both parties to have input, and say �That doesn�t work for me�. Therefore, both parties continue to brainstorm until they can agree on something. I�d like to wait and talk with Harley before pursuing an LS, whether you rent from me or I rent from you, please. We agreed to next summer not long ago.
S: Then can you explain how your personal depression and lack of joy due to you not getting what you want out of this marriage reflects being 'unselfish?'
M: Arguably, selfish might be to leave and start over and not have to deal with the baggage of past hurts here. I�m choosing what I believe to be the higher ground, weather this conflict and repair things, hopefully make things right with you. I�m choosing to make the wisest decisions I know to make.
S: Are you saying that the idea of leaving and starting over and all that entails is genuinely an appealing thought for you?
M: I�m saying it might be the selfish thing to do. It�s harder to negotiate and repair our problems than to leave and start over. You�ve mentioned similar dreams about wanting to leave, �planning your exit/escape, etc.� This email stuff is incredibly difficult compared to what I envision spouses are supposed to do. If the �idea of leaving and starting over and all that entails is genuinely was appealing to me, don�t you think I would have jumped at the idea of an LS? Let me make it clear, I am sitting here on a Friday night e-mailing my estranged wife sitting 9 feet away from me because it is my desire and conviction to work through this difficult period, repair our relationship and find new heights for my marriage with you no matter how tough it is for me.
S: Then by my definition, your choice is still the selfish one, because leaving is not appealing to you.
M: Yes, I�d prefer to repair than replace. If you want to call that selfish, I can live with that yet I can see where it would be in many ways less difficult than working things out with you. Do you want me to leave now? Has that changed? I thought you wanted to work things out for Jake�s best interests.
S: The topic is selfishness. You are still selfish but you won't see it, and therefore it won't change.
M: So, in your opinion, if I weren�t selfish, I�d run out and get a $280K loan? Is that why you�re calling me selfish? Are there other reasons?
S: Because you are the same person, and because there has been nothing in your life to cause you to change that. Because you're only addressing "our" problems now because you want something.
M: Well, I�ve shelved so many desires in recent years, that I don�t feel so selfish. Do I need to yield to everything you want for you to perceive me as less selfish? I�ll continue to shelve desires to do what is right.
S: Really? I can't think of anything you've shelved. I know there are things that you aren't doing because you don't want to do it without me (eg. work Christmas party), but that's not the same thing. What have you shelved for my benefit?
M: Well, being an [censored], being a slob, being a church goer, playing softball and golf.
S: Haven't stopped being an [censored]; you have a desire to be a slob but you've given it up?; church - weeks, not years; softball - not given up, season ended; golf - not given up. Do you have anything else that evidences how you have "shelved so many desires in recent years?"
M: Have I been an [censored] today? No, I don�t know what else.
S: So this: "I�ve shelved so many desires in recent years,.." Is this a lie then?
M: How would it be a lie?
S: Because you can't tell me what you've shelved in recent years.
M: I was referring to the things I�ve shelved in preference to your wishes. Sleeping together, company functions, etc. Sure, call me a liar if you were referring to permanent things as you have given up meat or the like.
S: You haven't shelved them, you've been denied them. You would engage in them again in a second, which by your definition would mean you'd be selfish again. (Please reread the recent exchange to refresh yourself on the recent discussion. Whatever your tactic is with this topic, it's not making you the least bit attractive to me.)

End of the exchange around 11:00 PM when she felt I had become disrespectful.
********************************************************

I know that was long and probably boring. Nevertheless, I beg of you to help me see what I am apparently blind to. Help me repair myself.

Thanks in advance,
Remark

One of the basic problems in your marriage is that you argue with her when she points out a love buster. YOU DO NOT GET TO DEFINE WHAT SHE VIEWS AS LOVEBUSTERS. <------Please let that soak in. She is the ONLY person who gets to decide what behavior causes a loss in her love bank. It does not matter if you agree or not. Getting your agreement that it is a love buster misses the point. She is telling you that your behavior is losing love units in your love bank with her. Do you understand? She is telling you that you are losing love units.

The only solution is to STOP DOING THAT THING. You don't argue or demand that she justify, you STOP IT.

When she gives you a complaint, it is like getting an NSF notice from the bank. It makes no sense to argue about it. You simply make a course correction.

When you stated in your initial post that she has been complaining about old grievances, I knew it was because the problems were in the present. You don't seem to listen to her and stop doing the offensive behavior.

That is where you should start.

If I were you guys, I would sign up for the online program. They would assign you a coach and Dr Harley would supervise your case. You could post to him on the private forum. This would work in turning your marriage around if YOU lead the way. I think its time to accept and admit that do it yourself has not worked. Dr Harley and your assigned coach would hold you accountable.

Do you think she would agree to go through this?

I agree. And your coach would help you stop your DJs and understand it from your DW's view. They would teach you to see what your DW has been trying to tell you to no avail.

Will you sign up?

Understood. Will do. I am so blind to my LBs.
Thanks for replying. I'm glued to this forum for the indefinite future.

I want to make sure you understand that the judge of your love busters is your wife. It never matters if you see or understand. What matters is that you STOP IT. Immediately. When my H tells me something I do bothers him, I say thanks for telling me, I stop doing that.

Can you do that?

I would gladly do that and have been considering it for some time. As I said I am "all in". Will pursue. Not sure about her. Am trying to first fix me. Until I show some improvement, she is not an option which is why I am keeping the focus on me/my communications skills, my interactions, looking to fix them first. Please help me stay focused on that.
Thanks, Remark

Yes I think I can do that. Am committed to doing just that. Owning the fact that I don't get to define her LB's will help that cause. Thanks

Will she go out on dates with you? That would be an ideal opportunity for you to demonstrate your changes.

So you understand and accept that when she voices a complaint, you should NEVER EVER argue or dispute. Your answer should always be: "thank you for telling me. I will stop doing that." AND THEN STOP DOING IT. DO NOT DO IT AGAIN.

As it is now, you cannot afford a single love buster. You have to be at 100%, not 98% or 99.5%, but 100%.

If you can get her to go out on dates with you, I would ask her to rate your behavior in an email after the date. She can tell you what you did wrong and what you did that she liked.

Do you think she would agree to do this?

No. That is not an option. She won't. The best I can hope for is doing things with her and our son, or her and other family.
It's in the daily interaction where I fail. Daily interaction has dwindled to verbal or e-mail exchanges like above (or below). I understand that I am not attractive to her in anyway as long as I have committed any LB in her recent memory. So, I am focused on honing myself and eliminating my LBs.
Do you see other aspect in my communication where I am disrespectful or deferring blame, or anything else negative?
Thanks

I am not the judge of that. There is only one judge and that is your wife. So I would continue to be on your very best behavior and avoid doing anything that upsets her. Look for opportunities to fill her love bank by doing nice things for her.

What does she love to do? What is her favorite thing to do?

That is a tall order to fill.
"So you understand and accept that when she voices a complaint, you should NEVER EVER argue or dispute. Your answer should always be: "thank you for telling me. I will stop doing that." AND THEN STOP DOING IT. DO NOT DO IT AGAIN." OK. The fundamental issue is that I have some defensiveness in me that rears its ugly head.

"As it is now, you cannot afford a single love buster. You have to be at 100%, not 98% or 99.5%, but 100%." Understood.

"If you can get her to go out on dates with you, I would ask her to rate your behavior in an email after the date. She can tell you what you did wrong and what you did that she liked.

Do you think she would agree to do this?" Doubtful.

Please stay focused on me and my communication skills/tactics, my issues. Any reference to her is NOT helpful. I HAVE to eliminate my LBs, as defined by her before any progress can be made.

And I apologize for not being very competent at the quotation and other features of this forum/blogging.
Thanks

That issue needs to stop TODAY. From now on your response is: "thank you for telling me. I will never do that again."



Don't tell me what is helpful or not helpful. You only know how to wreck marriages and if you are going to lecture me about what is helpful then I won't spend my time here.

When was the lat time this happened? Can you give me a specific example of how you were defensive?

Are you going to sign up for the online program?

I'm sorry. That is not what I meant. To post our e-mail string from yesterday, I asked for her permission. She said that would be fine unless I use any of the forum posting information to be directed at her. It needs to focused on me and my issues. I meant it in that light, not as correction of you. I am keeping focused on MY communication skills, MY defensiveness, MY faults. Not validation of me, or my position as that, as you said, has failed in the past.

You're 100% right. I am in no position to correct anyone, save, perhaps my 14 yr-old.

Please understand I as not targeting you in any way other than to keep the agreement made with my wife to post our correspondence from yesterday.

Humbly, Remark

Not sure. I'll gladly pay for it. The issue is whether she'd participate or not. Is it something I'd benefit from doing alone and/or could do alone? There have programs at our church, for example, that they wouldn't allow me to participate without my spouse.
Thanks, Remark

I gotcha, and I agree. I am not going to criticize her in any way because I understand what and how this got to this terrible place. She is exhausted from your marriage and is not willing to do anything at this point. I get that. She is completely checked out.

Can you answer my question above and give me a specific example of how you acted defensively? And when was the most recent example?

What does she love doing the most?

Probably this morning. We talked that when she says something, I often reply with "No, I didn't" or something akin to that. I understand that "No, I didn't" is defensive. So, I get that.
She also thought I was getting belligerent in my e-mail exchange yesterday. But, I don't see that which is why I asked her for permission to and posted it. I was intentionally focused on being patient and polite, so was surprised by her comment to then contrary.
From her and other posts, (perhaps yours), I am understanding that I defer blame or something and I am trying to see that better, because I don't perceive it now.
Thanks, Remark

If I say "No, I didn't" or defend my position in any way, I usually come off as defensive. I can see that in "No, I didn't", yet often, I feel like I'm just sharing my perspective, different than hers, of course. So, I don't see my perspective as any more 'offensive' or 'defensive' than hers. That's why I posted our exchange from yesterday, in hopes of others helping me 'mine' the defensive or disrespectful comments I may be making and not seeing.

She's a vegetarian, into crafts, plants and animals. In fact, she's at a craft fair with a girlfriend today.

This morning. She said I was getting belligerent in the e-mail exhange we had all yesterday, so she quit. I responded that I had been very focused and intentional to be polite and patient.
That came across to her as defensive, she said.
Thanks

Stop saying "no, I didn't." How does that solve the problem? When she tells you something bothers her, just stop it. When you do something that bothers her, it is HER perspective that is at issue. I don't CARE if you don't see it. IT doesn't matter. What matters is that you STOP DOING IT.

Justifying being defensive and DISMISSIVE by saying that is your perspective only aggravates the problem. You cannot afford to EVER DISMISS her complaints again. Do you understand that? Just take "no, I didn't" right out of your vocabulary today.

She's a vegetarian, into crafts, plants and animals. In fact, she's at a craft fair with a girlfriend today.
[/quote]

What does she most like doing with you? What about trips, shopping, going out to dinner?

NO, to her you were belligerent and she told you this. Dismissing her complaint like this is what you are doing wrong. AGAIN, it is HER PERSPECTIVE that will dictate whether it is a love buster or not. Do you understand? You cannot define her love busters. ONLY SHE CAN.

Your role in that email exchange ticked me off no end. I can tell you some of the things that made me think you were being a "censored". They might not be the same things that depleted your wife's love bank (when it is already overdrawn), so my view is of limited use. The real problem is that you do not listen to her. You defend yourself over and over again, while claiming not to be doing so. You posted that exchange in the hope that it would show the insanity that you are up against. It didn't do that.

I think the email exchange was so badly managed and so damaging that I don't think you two should have any more discussions about your marriage and your "vision". I think your wife is trying to get you to say the things she wants to hear and you don't want to say them. She annoys you by doing that and you annoy her by not conceding. You have a very nice line in sneering at her point of view while maintaining a veneer of politeness and agreement. In your wife's shoes I wouldn't put up with one more minute of that.

"S: Well, for example, I think you're an [censored] to me, and you don't think you are. That's pretty incompatible.
M: Yes, I understand that you think I�m an [censored] to you and I agree that�s pretty incompatible."

You in fact stated that you are NOT an a s s to her, but cleverly, you made it sound that you were agreeing with her! This is like the "I'm sorry if you feel hurt" apology that is not an apology.

" I�ll have to learn at least respond to you and your opinions better than I have in the past."

"OK, let�s keep track of that for a while, LB�s. Please point them out as they occur, whether it�s me committing them or you."

She's DONE with you, yet under the guise of asking for guidance you point out that she LBs also. You ask her to point out her own LBs. If she does not agree to do this then she is being unreasonable and you are the good guy.

NOT, I note, "I'll stop being an a s s."

"M: OK. I don�t think it is a spouses� job to �tell the other what to do�, anyway. That would be akin to selfish demands, I think. They can express their wishes, their LB�s, and their EN�s, and their opinions. Right? It�s all a balance. I can�t place the entire responsibility of my happiness on you, and vice versa. We can express our desires from our spouses. Yet, both spouses have a responsibility to the other to please them as best as possible. I know I�ve failed at that for 20 years. Does that make sense?"

NOT: I'll stop doing anything that makes you unhappy". And as for that "don't rely on me to make you happy"...I don't know where to start. You're telling her to learn to be happy in and by herself. Well, if she is going to have to do that she might as well not be married. You go on to say that you don't intend to bust a gut making her happy. You'll do what you feel is reasonable - which is what you've been doing for 20 years.

Your wife explains very well how she cannot bear to hear one more time "I simply misunderstood", so I won't spend time on that part of the conversation. Your wife is saying that you have a trigger response and then you brush off your response. The way you do that is to say to her "calm down dear. Keep your hair on. It was a simple misunderstanding. Don't blow everything out of proportion!" and other such belittling responses.

I'd have a hard time not packing your stuff the next time you said that sort of thing.

Your refusal to leave is annoying her. If you would leave as asked, without telling her what a beast she is being for making you do it, and if during the separation you try and date her and win her back, you could rebuild your marriage. Dr Harley guides people through this path when living together has become too destructive.

By telling her it is "foolish" to pay rent and go into debt you are condescending, you are implying that she needs educating about the fact that moving out will be costly (as if she does not know. Has she not run a household for the past 20 years? How do you think she did that if she lacks basic sense?) and you are making it clear that SHE is running your finances into the ground, not you.

Way to win her back, remark.

"M: Arguably, selfish might be to leave and start over and not have to deal with the baggage of past hurts here. I�m choosing what I believe to be the higher ground, weather this conflict and repair things, hopefully make things right with you. I�m choosing to make the wisest decisions I know to make.
S: Are you saying that the idea of leaving and starting over and all that entails is genuinely an appealing thought for you?
M: I�m saying it might be the selfish thing to do. It�s harder to negotiate and repair our problems than to leave and start over. You�ve mentioned similar dreams about wanting to leave, �planning your exit/escape, etc.� This email stuff is incredibly difficult compared to what I envision spouses are supposed to do. If the �idea of leaving and starting over and all that entails is genuinely was appealing to me, don�t you think I would have jumped at the idea of an LS? Let me make it clear, I am sitting here on a Friday night e-mailing my estranged wife sitting 9 feet away from me because it is my desire and conviction to work through this difficult period, repair our relationship and find new heights for my marriage with you no matter how tough it is for me."

You manage to imply that you'd really like to run away, and at the same time to point out how sensible and grown up you're being by staying - unlike your wife, who would like to separate and bring you to financial ruin.

Remark, how about going to stay at low cost with that family that you have inflicted on your wife for the past 20 years? How about making the separation happen and not making your wife feel bad about it?

"M: So, in your opinion, if I weren�t selfish, I�d run out and get a $280K loan? Is that why you�re calling me selfish? Are there other reasons?"

Sarcasm. Belittling.

"M: Well, I�ve shelved so many desires in recent years, that I don�t feel so selfish. Do I need to yield to everything you want for you to perceive me as less selfish? I�ll continue to shelve desires to do what is right."

You are so noble. If your marriage has turned into such a sacrifice, remind me again why you want to stay in it. And while you're at it, tell me how this is wooing your wife.

"M: Have I been an [censored] today? No, I don�t know what else."

I see what your wife means - that if you refuse to accept what she says about your behaviour because you don't see it, you won't stop doing it. Why would any woman who put up with this for years (while vocalising her unhappiness) for her son, but whose son is nearly grown, sign up for one minute more of this?

The following annoyed me so much I nearly burst into flames:

"I can only explain it as selfishness and seeing myself as normal when unhealthily comparing us to other folks. I don�t witness that only single people get to play softball, or golf or go to church or bible study. So, seeing and knowing that blinded me and lent in to my neglect of your wishes. I�m more of a believer and student of Harley now."

Translation: "You unreasonable cow. I've given it up, and I'll keep giving it up, but I'll never let you forget that you are an unreasonable cow because you won't allow me to do what millions of other wives do, which is allow their men to do what makes them happy."

That certainly shows how much you have understood Harley!

As I said, Remark, stop having these talks. You only need to say one more insulting, belittling thing to find your stuff packed and on the doorstep.

Contact the Harley coaches and ask them to help you save your marriage.

Despite what I said above about separation, I recommend that you do nothing until you speak with Dr Harley. I think you should send an email asking to be on the radio show, and see if you can get your wife to agree to be on it also. Get Dr Harley's tailored, expert advice before you do anything.

SugarCane beat me to the line-by-line analysis. You repeatedly lectured your wife, called her selfish, did not anwser her questions about how this time was really different, were sarcastic, and you tried to guilt her for expecting you to give up Independent Behavior. I also find it interesting that you think that bacause you are unhappy, you must not be being selfish. You are probably unhappy because you are not getting your way (and you are a selfish person). Inflicting a bad mood on your spouse is one method of controlling your spouse.

No WONDER your wife doesn't like you! You were very rude. If this was you being civil, I would hate to see anything else.

I think if you want to win your wife back, you are going to have to stop telling her what you will do and just do it. You also need a specific plan. "Thank you for the feedback" should be your mantra. Then actually address your behaviors. Stop eliciting feedback for a while because that seems to be annoying her. Write down all of her complaints that you can think of and begin to address them systematically.

And get Dr. Harley to coach you! You need the help seeing your faults.

I think you'd do alot of good having a coach help you. And plus you get direct contact from Dr. Harley.

Have you asked your DW about it?

Brilliant job, Sugarcane!!

Sugarcane,
I am sick to my stomach, which means I feel so ashamed of something I apparently do and yet I don't see and don't understand.
That's the kind of feedback I was looking for when I posted our conversation of yesterday. But, I had no idea I come across that belittling and condescending. I feel horrible that you would perceive that like she does.
I keep reading and re-reading your post.
Yes, we're planning on being on Tuesday's show with Dr Harley
Humbly, Remark

Given what you've been told today, what should be your response have been?

Have the Harleys contacted you and set this up? That's wonderful! Is your wife agreeing to participate?

Yes.
Thanks

"Thank you for telling me. Help me understand why you're saying that and what I said or did so that I'll never do/say it again."

Is that what I have learned today?
Humbly,
Remedial Remark

Yes. and Yes. We're on for Tues.

"Thank you for telling me. Help me understand why you're saying that and what I said or did so that I'll never do/say it again."

Is that what I have learned today?
Humbly,
Remedial Remark

Yes, but no response yet. Would the coach do just one half of the couple?
Thanks

Sugarcane,
I am sick to my stomach, which means I feel so ashamed of something I apparently do and yet I don't see and don't understand.
That's the kind of feedback I was looking for when I posted our conversation of yesterday. But, I had no idea I come across that belittling and condescending. I feel horrible that you would perceive that like she does.
I keep reading and re-reading your post.
Yes, we're planning on being on Tuesday's show with Dr Harley
Humbly, Remark

"Thank you for telling me. Help me understand why you're saying that and what I said or did so that I'll never do/say it again."

Remark

Yes, I understand. She defines her LBs no matter what I or anyone else think(s).

Sugarcane,
What specific program are you referring to? The coaching center or the $945 package that has accountability partners? I'm in, but not sure which program to enroll in. (We have most of the Harley books, and have been through them.)

Thank you,
Remark

Yes, she is going to participate in the call Tuesday, but she's not interested in the coaching.

Thanks for your advice,
Remark

If she changes her mind, I would sign up for the $945 program. You need all the help you can get.

I think you should first talk to Dr H on Tuesday. He could have a remarkable effect on your wife.

If he can persuade her to give the marriage another chance, then as Mel says, the accountability programme is invaluable. You'll get a coach who is in close supervision with Dr H to take you through the weekly lessons. You can also write directly to Dr H on the private forum here, and if you are in a crisis at any time, your coach will put you in direct contact with him.

I think it's only worth signing up to the accountability course if your wife agrees to work on it with you. The whole point of the course is that you do the lessons together, and address each other's issues in a controlled environment with a coach. I can't see the benefit in signing up to it on your own.

If your wife still refuses to participate in building the marriage after she speaks to Dr H, I would contact the telephone coaching centre for one or two phone sessions with either Steve Harley or Jennifer Harley Chalmers. They will coach you to behave in ways that should have a positive effect on your wife, and they are used to coaching only one spouse in the marriage.

Remark, do you believe it is a selfish demand to ask your spouse to stop doing something?


It is your responsibility to make your wife happy. That is why she got married.

Sugarcane,
That makes sense to me as well.
Thanks, Remark

It is a selfish demand to try and force you to DO something. It is not a selfish demand to ask you to STOP doing something that makes her unhappy. Asking you to stop going to church is not a selfish demand. The principle of the POJA is "never do anything without the enthusiastic agreement of your spouse. "

It is a violation of the POJA and a love buster [independent behavior] to do things that make your spouse unhappy.

WHO counseled you to do things that make your wife unhappy??



It is your job to fulfill all of your wife's needs so that she is happy and in love. If you fail in a certain area, that needs to change. If "the best of your ability" is not good enough, then your abilities need to be changed. The goal here is RAISE THE BAR, not lower her expectations.

What is a dependent personality related issue?

I took it to mean a person who places too much responsibility for their happiness on someone else. But, I'm not sure. I was told that I have that tendency years ago by a professional counselor.

I took it to mean having too much reliance on someone else for my happiness.

Who told me to make my spouse unhappy?

Noone counseled me to make my spouse unhappy. Multiple counselors told me not to stop going to church and bible study though. It's been in the academic discussion of IB with wife that we have discussed it. It's church and bible study with our friends and support group, not drinking or carousing, so I have really struggled ending it until a few weeks ago.
Also, in my opinion, not going to church sets a bad example for a child whom we want to be a church-going christian.

Dr Harley addresses this in his article "How the co-dependency Movement is Ruining Marriages":

here

I totally agree with Dr H's writings in red.

I haven't made the transition to stop going to church as my wife has until recently, and hopefully, not too late. Until lately, I kindof related it to the childhood lesson where we were taught "if your friend sticks his head in the furnace, it doesn't mean you should."

It sets a bad example to your children to deliberately make your spouse unhappy. Your child's quality of life will largely be contingent upon a happy marriage when he is an adult. Do you want your children to grow up and have a marriage like you? I sure hope not!

Multiple counselors and friends have no earthly idea how to create a happy marriage - AS YOU CAN SEE - so you would be wise to pass on their advice to do things that make your wife unhappy.

But you ARE sticking your head in the furnace.

How so, am I sticking my head in the furnace still if I have stopped going to church and bible study like my wife?

"It sets a bad example to your children to deliberately make your spouse unhappy. Your child's quality of life will largely be contingent upon a happy marriage when he is an adult. Do you want your children to grow up and have a marriage like you? I sure hope not!

Agreed.

I don't think our son connects the dots of me not going to church as making mom unhappy. And, surprisingly, he hasn't asked me why we've stopped going when we went for years, and both have taught his Sunday school class over the years. He does see us arguing about it and other things. So, I'm happy and hopeful to get with Dr H on Tuesday.

That is not what I said.

You said you had viewed stopping the church as "sticking my head in a furnace" and my comment is that you WERE doing that very thing by continuing to going to church because of the impact to your wife.

What do you mean here then? I'm confused. You understand now that I have stopped going to church and bible study as I believe it to be IB, right?

OK, I understand that. I have stopped as of three-four weeks ago.

Help!

Still more LBs today.

I can't seem to have a conversation with my wife without an LB or two. How does one stop LBs?

I understand that I'm dysfunctional in my communcation skills, get off topic and cause forum folks to lose interest and stop posting.

Please help me improve in these skills.

I seemed to get off into Independent Behavior, when that's not even the biggest concern right now. The biggest concern is learning how to interact with her without being disrespectful.

Desperate to improve and be a Harley husband,
Remark

What happened?

I quit going to church services that make my wife unhappy, and I'm very glad I did.

We have seven children who are all very religious, and the oldest became a Christian just this year.

Wife asked me why I was focused on Independent Behavior when that isn't the biggest problem and she read it. Reading it, she asserted that I left out facts which is lying.

She feels I paint myself out to be saintly, inaccurately.

She accused me of a LB. I denied it, defended what I said, and started comparing my LBs to hers.

Thank you for responding.

Excellent, that is encouraging.

ok, didnt' we go over this already? It makes no sense to DENY a love buster if SHE is the DEFINER of the love buster.

What did you leave out?

Our biggest issue is not IB. It's the LBs of being a jerk to her and dishonesty.

I left out the fact that church, bible study group, softball with daughters and work are co-ed. But, IB is my issue not hers.

So let's focus on the LB of being a jerk to her.

Yes, we discussed it.

When she asserts something, I don'tknow how to reply without being defensive.

When she takes issue with something I post, how do I respectfully say 'Why do you say that, and how can I be more accurate in the future?'
Is that what I'm supposed to do?

IMO, this is what the Bible teaches about church attendance when your spouse holds it against you:

http://biblehub.com/matthew/5-23.htm
http://biblehub.com/matthew/5-24.htm


God's priority is pretty clear: relationship first. And after all, what relationship should come first, to a degree more than any other relationship in life, than marriage which God ordained?

I think where we go astray on this is when we start judging our spouse's subjective opinions: "she shouldn't resent me going to church, and so this very doesn't apply," I might think. But that's just me being disrespectful about my spouse. It's not noble, and it's not Christian.

It's also evident from First Corinthians 7 that God's expectations for married people is that they PLEASE THEIR SPOUSE, and that this will diminish from their more overtly religious activities. That is totally expected and is God's will.

Christians aren't Buddhists - don't encourage your wife to seek Nirvana by trying to annihilate her emotional needs. She needs you to put her first in life, over every human being on the earth, including all other human beings in the church.

We know the big issue is you are being a jerk to her.


I am confused by this. All of those events that YOU go to are co-ed? And this is why it bothers her? I am not following you here.


huh?


I told you what to say: "THANK YOU FOR TELLING ME, I WILL STOP DOING THAT." So yes, you do know how to reply. I told you this already.


Don't say "why" anymore. Ask her how it can be said in a way that makes her comfortable.

Yes we discussed it. And in our desperate attempts to communicate, wife and I talked about my communication skills, (lack of), forum responses, etc, and that's when she made her comments.

Then, of course, I got defensive.

I don't heed advice like I need to!!

Ouch! Her feelings are not inaccurate! What a very disrespectful thing to say!

I suggest you read the Disrespectful Judgments chapter of Love Busters. Pay very close attention to what Dr. Harley says about wanting to "enlighten your spouse with the benefit of your superior perspective." Regardless of how she words it, it's pretty clear that you frequently depict your perspective as superior to or more accurate than your wife's perspective. That's disrespect, and I'm positive that God doesn't want you to treat your wife that way.

In fact, I think I would suggest you read that chapter daily for awhile.

I'd also strongly encourage you to email Dr. Harley and his wife on their radio show, and ask Dr. Harley to help you understand what about your attitude is so off-putting to your wife.

You know, I just realized your first posts in this thread are from November 2013. I can see why she is frustrated. That's a whole year you could have spent:

*) posting here to get help understanding your wife's perspective
*) listening to Dr. Harley's educational and motivational daily radio show
*) reading other people's stories here and learning to recognize disrespect in them so you can start learning how to recognize disrespect in yourself

Don't expect this to get better until you make some serious headway with the disrespectful judgments. You are just as bad as I was!

I was not saying her feelings are inaccurate. I was saying I left out facts that portray me as a saint, which is not accurate.

Yes, we both listen to MB daily.

Good idea. I'll read and re-read those chapters as well as the chapter in HWSW on how to negotiate.

Yes, a year has transpired. In the past year, I haven't posted.
I have listened to MB radio daily and I have read, re-read some of the Harley books, and we've sent e-mails to Dr H and Joyce which have been on the air.

Yes, I should have and can spend more time on this forum.

Will do.

Step 1 is to not disagree when your wife says you are being disrespectful.

If your wife says you are being disrespectful, and you can't understand how you are being disrespectful, get help from us or from Dr. Harley to understand her perspective.

You can't make any progress with this without regular feedback from your wife for any time you do or say something she feels is disrespectful.

Got it. I will do.

Most marriage counselors FAIL.

If you are here for the successful marriage counseling approach, why would you mix and match with other marriage approaches? Marriage counseling has a dismal success rate.

Quit listening to those people. They are wrong.

You aren't still seeing one of those counselors, are you?


That's a disrespectful thing to say about your wife's preference, and being disrespectful to your wife sets a much worse example for your children than not attending church.

That is the wrong response when your wife lets you know you are engaging in a love buster.

At least, if you want a happy marriage.

No, let's talk about the co-ed activities and the fact that a year ago you were on here pining about whether or not you should stay in a loveless marriage. Those are major red flags that you are ripe for an affair, if not contemplating one. We've had at least one at-church affair here in the past year from a husband who felt that church wasn't subject to the policy of joint agreement. It happens all the time. The first marriage Dr. Harley ever counseled had an affair between a pastor and a choir director. Good old spiritual support at church. Great way to meet emotional needs to help you tough it out in your rough marriage - that's the way Christians start affairs, and atheists, too.

Yes, my wife just tonight pointed out similar situations. But, til tonight, I hadn't considered church an unsafe place, or bible study. Perhaps co-ed softball, yes, but I didn't play for that.

Yes, we're both probably ripe for affairs. I have no interest in love with anyone but her. So non-issue for me. Not contemplating one. That's a very real risk as everyone needs romance in their life. We should both be motivated to meet each other's ENs.

Yes, a year ago I was pining for love in my marriage. Still will make same statement.

I MUST OBLITERATE MY LBs BEFORE ENs CAN BE DISCUSSED.

Remark,

Can you fill us in on when you've written to Dr. Harley and what was said on the radio? We want to be supporting his advice, and we also want to hear what was said so we can best understand your situation.

Church is a very unsafe place.

Just check statistics for divorce and affairs in and outside of church. Religion makes no difference.


It is still an issue. You are showing a number of disturbing misunderstandings about the nature of infidelity. Almost all affairs start with someone who would say "I have no interest in love with anyone but her."

You should take a look at these:


How do Affairs Begin?

Anatomy of Adultery

chapter 13 of His Needs, Her Needs


In a bad marriage, it usually falls to the husband to learn how to motivate his wife. You've got to do the jump starting. Frankly, the husband is usually the only one with the stamina to do it.

I have been there in that loveless marriage. Now my wife is extremely motivated to meet my emotional needs, because I make massive love bank deposits every single day, and love busters are extremely rare.

I get all of the above though I never considered church an unsafe place! I considered it a safe place, as compared to bars or meet-up groups, etc.

The only way for me to make deposits is to eliminate LBs first.

There is no way for me to make deposits these days.

Statistically church is just as dangerous.

Frankly, most churches I have known have encouraged a LOT of unsafe behavior, such as valuing time spent at church functions even when the spouse objects. This gets people something to bond over. And nothing helps men and women bond to each other so well as talking with each other about their marriage problems. This is the number one conversation topic in an affair. And you will notice that conversation is an important intimate emotional need.

I hope you completely refrain from discussing your marriage with women, ever - church or not.


That is exactly correct. And that is why it is so vitally important for you to learn to recognize disrespect, so that you can eliminate it. Right now, each and every time you say something your wife feels is disrespectful, it is a crisis.

Have you let her know that you will no longer engage in any behavior she is not ENTHUSIASTIC about? I don't know if that will make a deposit, but I think it will at least make her glad.

What things are you giving up that she has complained about?

I think both of these love busters are at serious crisis level and will spell the end of your marriage if you do not stop them.

Are you familiar with the Love Busters worksheet procedure for disrespectful judgments? Will your wife follow it with you?

If your bible study group teaches people to attend church and bible study even when their spouse is unenthusiastic, I would say your wife was right to drop out! Maybe you can find a marriage-affirming church or Bible study.

BTW, I'm a big advocate of worshiping at home as a family when no other options are suitable - IF husband and wife are both enthusiastic, of course. We bake our own unleavened bread for communion, sing hymns, read the Scripture, and pray. It is very moving and valuable for us. You might find out how your wife would feel about doing something similar.


Incomparable to the joy of bringing your marriage back from the brink and having a romantic relationship with your wife, though. It turns out ANY recreational activity will do if both people are enthusiastic about it. I can't imagine being enthusiastic about softball, myself - sports aren't my thing. My father and brother love football, but they can't bond with me discussing it, because I have zero interest.

There are zillions of recreational activities in the world: millions will be interesting to you, and a different set of millions will be interesting to your wife. Activities that are in both of those sets will bond the two of you together.

A marriage that is on life support does not need outside recreational activities. There's no time to spare for that.

She hasn't complained about IB for years because when she did complain about my softball with my adult daughters, I replied "Don't even think of complaining about my softball with them!" And this was when I wanted us both to do the Harley program last year.

Now, I know that IB is bad, so on my own, I've stopped them.

Yes, I agree it would be a good thing for me tell her that from now on, "I won't involve myself with anything that we don't have enthusiastic POJA on", but she doesn't care. She feels POJA won't work for us because of me.

I can see from her thread that one of her big problems has been you engaging in activities with family members that she is not enthusiastic about.

I had to come to a point where I would not engage with my family if my wife was not enthusiastic.

The result was a happy marriage AND a vastly improved relationship with my family (they stopped being disrespectful to Prisca and to me).

I would leave the Marriage Builders terminology out of it.

I would say:

"I am sorry for hurting you by playing softball with my daughters over your objections. I won't be doing that any more."

"I am sorry for hurting you by seeing family members over your objections. I will not be doing that any more. From now on, you come first, till death do us part. I am ready and willing to forsake them for you."

I can do that. That is true and a good suggestion.

Still, I see independent behavior as the secondary issue. The first being disrespect, being a jerk to her, being defensive.

I am sure you have been very disrespectful about your independent behavior. When she posted here a month or so ago she posted about your independent behavior, but she didn't use that term. She posted about allegiance - you were seeing your family over her objections. And church as well.

In any case there doesn't need to be a LOT said about it - just stop it! Steve Harley once told me not to expect a lot of accolades from my wife for stopping love busters. People don't typically blow a trumpet and announce they've stopped abusing their wives. But the love busters need to stop in any case, all of them.

The more withdrawn she is, the less she will care about some love busters - this is a bad sign, because it means she simply wants to be away from you.

In all your marriage builders listening, have you heard Dr. Harley discuss an approach avoidance conflict?

In April, my wife wrote saying I refer to her as a reluctant wife and she described herself and her efforts and said she was NOT a reluctant spouse. Dr H said she is a reluctant spouse because my LBs have pushed her into withdrawal.

He advised me to stop my LBs and she'll come around and allow me to make deposits.

That was April 14 or 15, this year.

There have been others, but I don' have dates or specific topics.

BTW, I'm more than willing to bet your extended family is disrespectful to your wife. So again, seeing them over her objections is very entertwined with the issue of disrespect.

If you are dying of cancer AND the bubonic plague, it probably doesn't make a whole lot of sense to worry about which one is primary and which one is secondary. You need urgent treatment for both.

Instead of navel gazing about which one is primary or secondary, knock them both off immediately!

OK, I agree. That makes a lot of sense.

How do I stop being defensive? I have done research on it, I've studied it. I've watched youtube videos on how to avoid it. Still, when I am questioned or complained to, I get defensive?

I would focus on keeping your mouth shut until you are totally calm. Don't respond until you have had a chance to get us or Dr. Harley to help you understand your wife's point of view. Focus on understanding her point of view BEFORE you try to give her your point of view.

Be quick to listen and slow to speak:
http://biblehub.com/james/1-19.htm

I am familiar with it. It is in the Five Steps to ROmantic Love, right?. We each did is separately sort of several months ago. I will review.

It's not a one time activity: she should give you a weekly written worksheet listing each time you said or did something disrespectful. See if she is willing to do this.

I generally don't have angry outbursts. I do respond with calm, (I think) unemotional defensive comments, often like "No, I don't" or "No, I wasn't" (defensive, for example.)

It's not so much the tone or emotions, but the words.

It's a love buster for me to say trigger words like "I try", for example.

Did you read all of my suggestions in that post, or did you stop at the suggestion to be calm?

This is a matter of simple habit formation. Eliminate the old habit and form the new habit. Dr. Harley has written a lot about habit formation, and you can find a lot written about it anywhere. One thing you'll find is that in order to override your old habit, you are going to need to be calm enough to remember to think before you speak, so you can learn to start filtering out the things you say that she finds disrespectful. After you have done this long enough, it will be automatic.

The worksheet procedure is very good help in learning to eliminate the habit of disrespectful judgments.

I asked. She is not interested.

Build this new habit:

When your wife tells you something you don't want to hear, thank her for telling you. Then, shut up.

Can you do this?

Yes, I had prematurely responded at calm, I believe.

Good advice.

Anxious to talk with Dr H on Tuesday. I hope he suggests more like this AND I WILL PUT INTO PROACTIVE DAILY.

I can imagine how painful it is to her to hear "I try." You've been here two years and "tried," yet no progress has been made. And when she hears "I try," she has no reason whatsoever to feel optimistic that anything is ever going to change.

For all your research, you still talk like you are totally controlled by instincts and habits and emotions - like you must do whatever comes to mind and can't help yourself.

It reminds me of when I said I was "working on" my habit of angry outbursts. I've learned that "working on it" was basically code for "doing nothing." I imagine she feels exactly the same way about "I try."

Your wife is in extreme, excruciating emotional pain, and you have put her there. She is basically in that pain ALL THE TIME. I would bear that in mind each and every time you open your mouth to speak to her. You simply have to think about everything you are going to say before you say it.

When is the last time you said "I try" to her? Can you stop saying it? Will you post here each and every time you say it, so we can try to help hold you accountable? I would build up a list over time of each and every thing you say that she finds disrespectful, and follow this same procedure for each of them. If she will help you build that list, then great - if not, you can still figure it out and build it over time, and we can help if you will let us know each time a conversation goes south.

See - stop being so quick to speak, start being slower to speak and quicker to listen. You will get a lot more value out of our advice - and you can get a lot more value out of what your wife tells you if will do the same with her.

I suspect you do this to her a lot. If she is like my wife she has trouble getting her sentences started, and then if you jump in when she is barely started, she never has the chance to get around to saying what she wants to say.

Yes, I understand how painful it is to her. It's profound how you empathized with that pain.

Last time I said it, was today, I'm sure. No, I have not been able to stop saying it to date. Can I? With God's help, I will.

Yes, it does come instinctively almost before I can stop ift from going out of my mouth.

Yes, I will post it whenever I say it.

If you cannot make yourself stop saying "I try" immediately, I would suggest that you get professional help.

Let's see what Dr. Harley says Tuesday. I'm glad to hear you are going to be speaking to him. I'd strongly suggest mentioning this.

Yes, I WILL be mentioning.
Thank you for your help.
Ashamedly, Remark

Markos,
What do you mean by "professional help"? Do you mean more than Dr Harley and/or whatever MB program (either coaching or accountability) or something else?
Thanks

I mean Dr. Harley and his program. I really do think you need to get to the point where the answer to "Can you stop such and such?" is "YES." It is possible Dr. Harley might refer you to something more specialized (he did for me for anger management), but I wouldn't think so for this.

What I am trying to say is that if you really feel that you cannot stop saying "I try," when you know that it bothers your wife, you need to get a professional involved in helping you break that habit. We need to get you much more skilled and educated in the process of habit formation, because habit formation is what Marriage Builders is all about. It seems that you have done a lot of reading and research, but you need to get some practical experience, ASAP.

I totally agree and that is what I thought you meant. I am looking forward to hearing what Dr H says tomorrow. And, I will honor and do WHATEVER Dr H says.

P.S. I just made it through a conversation without saying "I'm trying".

When asked what I mean when I say "I'm all in", I said I'd do whatever program Dr H suggests of his own (MB) or otherwise.

I think you and I are the same age, right? Am I indicating anything to you that sounds contrary?

Thanks,
Remark

We'll be listening along and will help hold you accountable to it - one of the great things this forum does is help reinforce Dr. Harley's suggestions.


I'm not sure - people tend to make radically different assumptions about my age online. But I would bet anything we are both in a similar profession.

Great - this is progress! Do your utmost to make today the last day you ever said this.

Sorry, I meant same page. We're in agreement, right?

And, thanks for the accountability. That is what I need, I believe.

Yep - that's what we are here for!

Even more so for those who have previously had an affair.

Your wife detailed an angry outburst on the radio show today. She pointed out when you were engaging in behavior she finds disrespectful (saying "I'm trying"). This was valuable feedback from her that you need to encourage. Your response was to flip her off with both hands.

That's an angry outburst.

So I'm going to ask you - can you stop that, totally? If your answer is "no," I'm going to say you really, really need to go through anger management therapy. There is all kinds of anger management information available here on this site. Threads, devices you ought to buy, procedures you need to follow.

The answer needs to not be "I generally don't have angry outbursts." Angry outbursts need to be eliminated. Your wife ought to separate from you if you can't stop these, right?

Incidentally, I noticed that when Dr. Harley asked if you had any issues with impulse control, you turned things around in your answer to be answering about you and your wife. What's the deal with that? Can you isolate your own faults without having to bring your wife's into it?

And as for your response to these things - don't spend a lot of words telling how ashamed you are. I heard you do this several times on the radio show.

Look, a bunch of us have done this kind of stuff. I spent three weeks in a Super 8 motel in 2012 because Prisca wouldn't let me live with her any more if I continued to have angry outbursts.

A bunch of us make the mistake of trying to really verbally emphasize how sorry we are. Unfortunately that usually covers up for not actually doing anything. So don't post a bunch about how ashamed or sorry you are - let's talk about following the program to end this kind of stuff.

Friends and enemies of good conversation:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5056_qa.html
And also His Needs, Her Needs, 2010 edition, chapter 4, intimate conversation:

Okay, Dr. Harley would like an email from you every day reporting on your attempts to give her undivided attention. We're going to hold you to that.

BTW, don't try to educate your wife - it's disrespectful. Don't even try to educate her about Marriage Builders. Remember, you need to avoid love bank withdrawals at all costs.

Stick to:
"I'd like it if you ..." (she can say no)
or:
"It bothers me when you ..." (follow this up quickly by moving to another subject so it's clear that you aren't demanding she do something about it)

I will e-mail Dr H first thing everyday. Set up as a reminder in my Outlook for the next 10 days ( given the holiday. )
You heard yourself referenced, too, Markos, aka 'responder'.

Oh, I missed that, but I'm relistening with my wife right now!

Yes, I understand that. I will drop whatever I am doing to discuss whatever she wants 100% of the time.
Thanks for your accountability, too, Markos

mentioned re: "seeking professional help"

Regarding rejecting the word "abusive":

* I consider you abusive just as I consider myself when I arrived here abusive. Disrespectful judgments are abusive.
* Dr. Harley has an article on this: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5067d_qa.html

If you want to do Marriage Builders, then you need to not debate the term abusive. By Marriage Builders standards, disrespectful judgments are abuse.

And, me too, relistening, as well.

More comments:

Don't ever debate your wife. If she says you're not seeking professional help, don't debate her on that point. Don't try to refute her.

When you feel frustrated, don't say or do anything. Because when you are feeling frustration everything you are thinking of saying or doing is going to make your problem worse.

I read a book by an anger management therapist who in counseling one guy simply gave him a card that said "SHUT UP." It's fantastic advice.

I'd encourage you to relisten to this show often. Maybe even daily for awhile.

I suspect that listening to it will make you feel pretty emotional. It will be hard to make yourself do that.

However, by repeatedly listening to those emotional topics, you will eventually dull the emotional reaction. And when you are not getting so emotional, you will hear much more of what Dr. Harley is advising you.

Add to 1. - make eye contact with JustDaytoDay when she talks to you.

Add to 5. - a time limit to eliminate angry outbursts, and an agreement that if you are unable to eliminate angry outbursts by that time limit, you will agree to seek professional help. Go read the Anger Management 101 threads here. And also Dr. Harley's "How to negotiate when you are an emotional person" article. Do you have the most recent edition of love busters? There is lots more information about angry outbursts in here than in the earlier editions.

Good catches. I am adding them to my plan. My daily, first thing before doing anything reminder list.

Yes, I think I do have the latest edition of Love Busters. I'll hve to check.

And, OK, what's a resonable time limit. 30 days? a week?

Thanks

I would suggest 30 days.

Love Busters was revised in 2002, then again in 2008.

Plan to refine your list over time.

I have the 2002 edition. I'll read it as I have it. Major difference in the 2008 edition?

Yes, there's been a lot added about angry outbursts.

I'll snag a newer copy. Thanks

I would say that your #6 is not near specific enough.

I would add to that list "Do not disrespect your wife". It is not good enough that you think you are showing her respect. She needs to feel that you are doing it.

Great additional ideas!
Thanks

Remark - how's it going? You disappeared rather quickly.

Are you doing this?

Yes, with the holiday, I only e-mailed Dr H last Wed and then this AM. (We were out of town until last night.)

I have been respectful and given her undivided attention.

It's much easier to give her UA and when the topic of conversation is not something I am doing that bothers her. Within a span of 5-10 minutes yesterday, I annoyed her three times. That spawned conversation that I cannot succeed at. That is to say that I was not able to answer why I wasn't paying as close attention to our dog as I should have been, for eample. It frustrates her no end that I can't give a deep, logical answer to 'why I wasn't paying close enough attention', for example.


Thanks,
Remark

I ordered last week and received today, the new edition of Love Busters. I'll be reading on AO tonight.

Thanks,
Remark

Markos,

I am here. Was just traveling over the holiday. And, I'm still not a pro at this forum stuff. (Yes, I need help, accountability partners, etc. But, I hate to burden the world with my issues. I'm transparent, but I don't twitter, 'ya know?)

I e-mailed Dr H Wed AM and this AM as per his suggestion. I believe I am doing well on the Undivided Attention. However, there are always other issues.

More in a minute.

Markos,

How does this forum stuff work in that I would welcome my wife to post on this thread. But she doesn't. She has her own thread that you and your wife have both replied to/on. I spent some time reading it last night, not understanding some of what was being said.

Should I stay off of that thread?

Meanwhile, back to this thread............
I've been good at UA, dropping whatever I'm doing when she speaks. We still have conflicts that bury us though.
Thanks,
Remark

I would stay away from posting on her thread and keep your questions and comments to your thread.

x 2

I just listened to your show. Why is it that you have failed to mention that you had an affair?

First: I don't see how you can say that you were "respectful and gave her undivided attention" if she is still complaining that you are not doing so.

Second: to me, your words come across as rather scornful and sneering. It seems to me that you posted these examples of how unreasonable her requests are, so that we can see how she gives you a hard time over stuff of vanishing unimportance. You're still trying to prove that you are unreasonable and no bad example of a husband, and she is an unreasonable, miserable, demanding cow.

Did she ask you give a "deep, logical answer" to why you were not paying close enough attention, or did she draw it to your notice that you weren't paying attention, asked you what was distracting you and you said "I dunno", and she asked again, insisting that you must know? Was she trying to point out to you that you were doing yet again the very thing you've been told off for, by her, by us and by Dr Harley - the thing you promised you wouldn't do any more, which was to treat her as less important than the stuff on the bottom of your shoe? And were you treating the complaint itself as beneath your interest level?

And when you weren't paying close enough attention to the dog: I assume she wasn't trying to get you to have a deep, meaningful conversation with the dog. Was the dog fussing about something (like needing to go outside) and you were ignoring it, not wanting to have to get up and see to its needs? Is that what she meant when she asked why you were not paying attention to it?

I see what your wife meant when she said that you won't try at something you don't take as a serious problem.

You're doing it again.

You're belittling her and using carefully chosen, very unpleasant descriptors to tattle on her here, because any normal person will see that she is a high-maintenance nightmare and that you are as good as any husband out there.

How's that working for you, Remark?

I have to say that the way you treat your wife isn't the kind of 'just compensation" after an affair that any of us would stick around for.

Well, because I didn't consider it a bona fide affair until Dr Harley's interpretation. What happened was this. Eight years ago, I exchanged email with my high school girlfriend whom I haven't seen since high school 30 years prior and couldn't pick out of a line up then or now. I live 800 miles from where I went to high school and have never been back. The e-mails were not racy or sexy in any way. So, I didn't consider it an affair. Upon listening to Dr H for a couple of years now, I understand and consider it an affair, an emotional affair. And I appreciate the intense pain it has inflicted on my wife, and how incredibly stupid I was then.
I cannot be more ashamed of that situation. But, that is what Joyce was referring to.

Have you seen this?
What is Just Compensation?

I wonder if you really do because it seems you gave her no Just Compensation, continued with destructive behaviors, and dismissed your wife complaints. You have repeatedly said you can appreciate that your wife feels x, y, or z and then do absolutely nothing to change it...or it is short lived.

If you know she has issue with your family, why did you still go there for Thanksgiving?

Sugarcane,
Obviously, it's not working at all.
I am at a loss, though. How should I have communicated, worded what I posted such that it comes across as frustrated WITH MYSELF and my inability to satisfy her or you with deeper answers. I give her more than "I dunno", but less than all-the-layers-of-the-onion as we both would like to know/share.

re: the dog..... we were traveling back from a family trip yesterday. She had to go to the bathroom and wanted a frappe. We pulled into McDonalds. As she went towards the store, I went away from the store to the perimeter of the parking lot to allow the dog to relieve himself and mark a few bushes. She paused before going into the restaurant to see the dog come back onto the parking lot and a car had to stop as he was venturing into its way. I was not paying the close attention I should have. Indeed, I should have had a leash on him because, that dog worships her. His immediate thought after anything is "Where's Mom?" Conversely, if he were with her relieving himself, he'd be content that mom is right there with him, and he wouldn't be so concerned where I or our son was. So that was the dog reference.
I have thought that one through, and landed as I just described. I don't have more to offer as to why I was not more attentive, for example. I am sorry, remorseful and will not ever allow that to happen again.
And, I have spent time over the years trying to figure out why I am the way I am; what childhood trauma or event caused me to be the way I am.
Honest, I do not think of my wife in terms like "unreasonable cow" or anything like that.
Please, take a portion of the above and tell me how I should have worded it more humbly, more considerate of her.
In need of a coach,
Remark

I am familiar with Dr H's term just compensation. What would that look like in this case?

I didn't insist on going there for Thanksgiving. My dad is 88 and I feel the need to see him a few times a year. And he lives in the same city as my brother, a dentist, and he was in the middle of some dental work on me. I see your point though.

Thanks,
Remark

Yes, I am familiar with Dr H's just compensation. I don't know what that would look like in our case. Any thoughts?
Thanks,
Remark

Guilting your spouse into doing what you want is basically the same as a demand. You are not supposed to do things unless your spouse is in enthusiastic agreement. She has identified your lack of allegience to her as a SERIOUS Love Buster. You could visit family at a different time. Like after your marriage is in better shape.

This article seems relavant. Also all the articles on POJA.

Christmas ruining your marriage?

Also, if you aren't going to sign-up for coach, get the Radio Archives and listen to everything on POJA, Disrespectful Judgements, Angry Outburst, and Undivided Attention.

And your explanation of the dog incident sounds like you are shifting blame to your wife.

You are supposed to make the marriage better than ever to compensate your spouse.

Sounds good. I'm working on that very thing.

Re-read the post. The focus was on how the dog is so attached to your wife. Not that you weren't paying attention which is her complaint.

OK, I understand that. I can see how it would be interpreted that way. Honest, in my analysis, I came up with the contrast of how the dog behaves with me versus how he behaves with her for the sole purpose of me being more responsible and aware. My pint was not to shift blame anywhere. I assume full blame/ responsibility.

The description of the dog's attachment to my wife was to contrast his behavior and how I should have handled it differently, better.

My bad. I am an idiot.
Apologies,
remark

Marko's wife, Markos, Anyone,

Perhaps, I continue to be an idiot. Should I have assumed to send my daily e-mails to Dr H on Thursday (Thanksgiving), Friday, Saturday and Sunday of the holiday weekend?

Thanks,
remark

What would your rationale be for not sending them those days?

We were at her family's place Thu, and left early Friday for my family 6 hours away where we were until Sunday around 5 PM when we got home. I thought it presumptuous and imposing on Dr H and assumed he was celebrating the holiday with his family as well. Doesn't everyone except those who have to work retail on Black Friday weekend?

I didn't take my PC either. Technically, I could have logged on to my parent's PC or used my phone to e-mail him. I just thought it was a holiday for him and everyone and left him alone.

I resumed Monday.

Is that stupid?

Thanks,
remark

I'm thinking the lack of responses here means you agree with W and I should have e-mailed Dr H every day this past weekend, despite it being a holiday weekend.

I blew it. Again.
Full of regrets,
remark

I wasn't online until now but yes you should either have emailed Dr. H everyday because YOU said you would or you could have simply asked your wife if she thought you should email him given that it was a holiday weekend and POJAed the issue. Either one would have been a simple solution instead of you assuming and doing nothing...that has been a major complaint with her. Either you assume or you ignore instead of communicating. Everyday means everyday...not everyday except...

Words should have weight, Remake. I divorced my exWH because he was a cheater but also because his words meant NOTHING either. You can not afford to make assumptions. I don't think stupid is the right word but it is extremely aggravating when a spouse does this...especially when your spouse is at the end of her rope.

Thanks, BR, I get that.

What to do now? The few things she will ask me, I do. The little interaction we do have, I give her UA and complete eye contact and attention. That's all I can do.

I keep reading forum stuff, and relistening to Dr H, MBRadio of the day we were on.
remark

I need to log off and do some stuff with my kids but you said, "I get that." I have seen you say this after the fact many times...after dropping the ball again. I have seen you ask posters what to do many times...even though you listen to MB radio, have spoken with Dr. H, and your wife has made umpteen complaints over the years.

My advice is to stop being lazy and think of something on your own. I am not saying that to be mean either. I was not willing to draw my H a diagram after he repeatedly missed the boat, time and time again. Repeatedly saying you're sorry doesn't cut it. So brainstorm about what you can do or what you should stop doing.

Dr. H specifically asked your W if you were capable or not. You heard her answer so go from there.

OK, thanks. Will do.
Thank you for your time.

Don't just do the few things she will ask you. Your wife is in withdrawal, which means she does not feel like having you meet her emotional needs. So she's not interested in asking you to do much of anything.

Work the program, Remark. You listen every day, so you know what is entailed. Eliminate your love busters, STOP DEBATING WITH HER, STOP LECTURING HER ABOUT WHAT THIS PROGRAM SAYS SHE SHOULD DO, and start meeting her emotional needs.

The whole point of this program is to turn men into irresistable husbands who sweep their wives off their feet by meeting all of their emotional needs. Not turn them into clueless guys who can't take a next step without asking their wife what to do.

Don't disappear again, got it?

P.S. When is the last time you said "I try"?

There was something your wife found attractive about you once upon a time when you first met or she wouldn't have married you. I highly doubt you dismissed her feelings or made her feel unimportant. With you having four children from a prior marriage, I don't think she was signing up for that because she thought you were a troll. You have known her for 20 yrs...what does she like (without asking her)?

Think about it...

And it was pretty clear from your posts earlier that you were promising to do so every day.

When you failed to follow through on this simple thing, it made her (and us) feel like she was being played for a fool. It showed that this program isn't a high priority with you; it's something to bring up in crisis moments and then forget. So the changes this program advocates will never be permanent with you; only temporary promises made in crisis, to be forgotten quickly. (Very quickly, apparently.)

No dickering around, Remark - don't insinuate that we are fools. Every single one of us read on this thread that you were going to email Dr. Harley every day, and you didn't do it, so don't argue about it, start doing it now.

By the way, your list that you made shortly before you left is woefully inadequate. You need to master this entire program.

No demands
No disrespectful judgments
No angry outbursts
No independent behavior
No dishonesty
No annoying habits
15 hours a week giving her your undivided attention
- meeting her need for conversation
-- including all four friends of good conversation
-- including none of the enemies of good conversation
- meeting her need for affection
meet three more emotional needs for her, well
negotiating everything that goes into your schedule, including only things that she is enthusiastic about, so as to build a compatible and enjoyable lifestyle
providing full transparency into your life

You've done plenty of studying of this program - it is time to start doing what the program specifies.

I can't understand why you would think the answer to that is anything other than YES.

I can't understand why you would even discuss it.

Start sending those daily emails seven days a week.

POST THEM HERE ON THIS THREAD AS WELL.

Don't let up until your wife feels your marriage is spectacular.

That's a lie.

Don't be a dramaqueen. Regrets won't save your marriage. Changing your behavior will.

Remark, you gotta get focused here.

Do you have the book Five Steps to Romantic Love?

I suggest you start working through it, a chapter a week. Each section of the book corresponds to a chapter in either Love Busters, or His Needs, Her Needs.

Early on you will tackle Selfish Demands. See if you can get your wife to agree to give you a weekly worksheet listing selfish demands you have made during that week. If she does, POST THEM HERE. If not, post to us regularly and we will try to help you see your selfish demands.

The next week you will tackle Disrespectful Judgments. We know you make a lot of those. Same procedure; you want to invite your wife to give you a weekly worksheet listing your disrespectful judgments - if she feels like it. If not, we will help you spot them. If she does provide you the list POST THEM HERE. We will start working with you to eliminate these, just like we are working with you to eliminate "I try" from your vocabulary.

Eliminating Disrespectful Judgments will be a major step forward for your marriage, but I expect she will still be furious because you also have major problems like Independent Behavior.

Your Love Busters are the reason your wife has no interest in receiving your undivided attention, so it is a very good thing that Love Busters are at the front of the program. Try to spend 15 scheduled hours each week giving your wife your undivided attention, but don't expect her to actually feel enthusiastic about that time until you've gotten very consistent about eliminating the love busters.

Keep progressing through the workbook and eliminating the habits that are highlighted. Ideally you need to eliminate them all at once, immediately. Probably you will need some help learning to spot these. POST HERE REGULARLY for help with that. Any time your wife is upset, post here about it, and don't leave out any details, and allow us to help you understand your wife's perspective, and what habits you need to eliminate or replace. There are lots and LOTS of helpful Marriage Builders posters who can help you understand what you are doing that is upsetting your wife, and who can help hold you accountable for eliminating the upsetting behaviors.

Don't disappear again. It makes you look like you aren't serious about this.

Your wife should be preparing to separate from you if the disrespect and independent behavior don't stop and you don't turn this marriage around for her. This is a crisis that won't take a holiday.

Your wife isn't enthusiastic about it, though, so don't do it.

Don't carve out exceptions to this program.


Whatever care you provide for people outside of your marriage needs to be done only in a way that your wife is enthusiastic about.

I hate to sound callous, but I am assuming that at age 88 you have had many happy years of memories with your father, and there are not so many years left. Meanwhile, if you intend to stay married to JustDaytoDay for life, you have many MORE years ahead with her. Your relationship with HER is the one you ought to be building.


Don't "see points" and thank people - that's a sure sign that you don't intend to take the advice you've been given.

Will you agree to stop doing anything that your wife is not enthusiastic about, including seeing your father if that is how she feels? Will you follow this program, or will you make an exception for this?

We need an answer to this question before we can go forward with you.

"Working on" is code for "doing nothing."

I know, because I was "working on" my own love busters for years. It was all my wife's fault for not getting on board with this program.

Dr. Harley's recommendation for a wife whose husband disregards her feelings and engages in behavior that she is not enthusiastic about is to separate from him.

Since you have often advised your wife to listen to and follow Marriage Builders, will you advise her to separate from you if you keep seeing relatives when she doesn't want you to see them?

You need to fill in your wife on all the details of this event that are missing.

You should offer to take a polygraph examination so she can verify that you are telling the truth about the extent of the relationship and the extent of what happened.

You should get ahold of the list of extraordinary precautions from Surviving an Affair (my wife posts this list frequently) and make sure you are following each and every one of them. Don't make excuses or exceptions or cut corners.

I don't think anybody's asking for professional level forum usage. And I don't think anyone needs an advanced degree to post to a forum.


Fine, no problem, burden your wife, instead, right?

We are here to help her by helping you understand her.

Don't pretend that not seeking regular help for the problems that you are causing her in life is noble, Remark. She is in excruciating pain, caused by you. There are a bunch of us here shouting at her and you that we will help you learn to stop hurting her - and instead of jumping at the chance to receive that help, you take the path of least effort and say you don't want to bother us? This kind of sentence makes it sound like everybody in the world comes before your wife.

OK, I won't dissapear.

And, I have not said "I try" or "I'm trying" yet since the 25th. I've thought it, of course, but thankfully have not let it pass my lips.

From Surviving an Affair, pg 66-67

The extraordinary precautions do more than end marriage-threatening affairs; they help a couple form the kind of relationship they always wanted.

These recommendations may seem rigid, unnecessarily confining, and even paranoid to those who have not been the victim of infidelity. But people like Sue and Jon, who have suffered unimaginable pain as a result of an affair that spun out of control, can easily see their value. For the inconvenience of following my advice, Sue would have spared herself and Jon the very worst experience of their lives.

Checklist for How Affairs Should End

_____The unfaithful spouse should reveal information about the affair to the betrayed spouse.

_____The unfaithful spouse should make a commitment to the betrayed spouse to never see or talk to the lover OP again.

_____The unfaithful spouse should write a letter to the lover OP ending the relationship and send it with the approval of the betrayed spouse.

_____The unfaithful spouse should take extraordinary precautions to guarantee total separation from the lover OP:

_____Block potential communication with the lover OP (change e-mail address and home and cell phone numbers, and close all social networking accounts; have voice messages and mail monitored by the betrayed spouse).

_____Account for time (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a twenty-four-hour daily schedule with locations and telephone numbers).

_____Account for money (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a complete account of all money spent).

_____Spend leisure time together.

_____Change jobs and relocate if necessary.

_____Avoid overnight separation.

_____Allow technical accountability.

_____Expose affair to family members, clergy, and/or friends.

We need an answer to this.

Perfect - this is the first of many habit formation changes you will need to make if you want your wife to be happy in your marriage.

Now, we need an answer to this, highest priority:

Yes. I have been doing all of the above except spending time with her and accounting for money. Her withdrawal won't permit that. It bums me out, but I can't demand anything.

As for accounting for money, I'll gladly do that as well.

In the past few months, I have given up all my outside independent behaviors [WITHOUT RESENTMENT - that is important ] except one that is with my son (which is Boy Scouts, which meets on the same night, same time, as her classes coincidentally, and I'm doing it for him not myself. He and I made a commitment to that effect. He is pursuing being an Eagle Scout, which is a big deal.) BTW, the three things I have given up as IB were Bible study group, going to church and playing softball with my adult twin daughters on a coed softball team.

I give her a printout list of all my passwords periodically. I am an open book, ashamed of many things in my past, but open to discussing them to put them to bed.

I don't know what any current issue(s) is/are with my family.

Am willing to do whatever necessary to bring closure and enter a new era for a better marital state!

Remark

Independent behavior doesn't mean behavior performed alone. It means behavior performed as if your spouse doesn't exist - i.e., she doesn't want you doing it and you do it anyway.

How does your wife feel about you doing Boy Scouts with your son? Find out for sure, because we will check with her and make sure you find out accurately. If her feeling about it is not ENTHUSIASM, then are you willing to quit?

She wasn't enthusiastic about spending Thanksgiving with them, if I understand correctly.

Go find out for sure.

Just FYI, I wanted to let everyone know I'll be stepping out. My H just blew off a conversation I was trying to have with him so he could go back to fixing the toilet. He just left to go to the store to get a part. He continued on that course even after I pointed out that he was once again demonstrating to me that I was less important than a toilet.

He's all yours! I'm done.

I'm back. The leaking toilet is on hold, steadily dripping onto some towels. This is more important, of course.

I also have a couple of emails from her since I left work around 4:00 PM to deal with son and bad toilet.

Markos,

I understand.

I'm begging for that help. Thank you, by the way.

I'm answering all questions honestly.

I don't know what or if there is a current issue with going to my folks' for Thanksgiving. A week or so prior to Thanksgiving, she suggested that we do the usual Thursday at her brothers' and asked when my family was getting together. My family was getting together Friday and Saturday. So, that what we did. (My family is 6 hours away. Hers is here in town.)

I thought it was as close to POJA as we experience. As mentioned I also had dental work done in the same trip. I had to go alone for that, if need be, but I thought she was OK going up there based on her comments. I'm an early riser, so would have left early Fri if it were up to me or I was asked. But, I left her and son sleep in and we left around 8 am.

I thought I was being sensitive to her wishes.

I don't know what her current reluctance is centered on. I'm trying to find out from her.

remark

OK, I should not have assumed Thanksgiving holiday was a non-working day in this sense, and emailed Dr H. Clearly, when I realized Thanksgiving was a non-working holiday, I made a mistake thinking it was an inappropriate day to send emails to Dr H.

I am willing to do 15 hours of UA and everything else. You understand that, right? I'd kill for 15 hours of UA. UA is supposed to be pleasant, like a date, right? I'd love to have a date with my wife. You do understand that, right?

No demands
No disrespectful judgments
No angry outbursts
No independent behavior
No dishonesty
No annoying habits
15 hours a week giving her your undivided attention
- meeting her need for conversation
-- including all four friends of good conversation
-- including none of the enemies of good conversation
- meeting her need for affection
meet three more emotional needs for her, well
negotiating everything that goes into your schedule, including only things that she is enthusiastic about, so as to build a compatible and enjoyable lifestyle
providing full transparency into your life

I am being transparent.
I'd love to meet any needs of hers she'll allow me to.
I'm not aware of any demands I'm making, or disrespectful judgements.
I'm managing my frustration very well without any Angry Outbursts.
We exhanged many e-mails today while we were both at work.
I don't know what else to do to address her conversation EN.

I am focused on eliminating LB's as per instruction from her and Dr H, before I attempt to meet EN's.

Please realize my efforts as part of your understanding.

She says 'she's done' and won't respond to my question of her position on the Thanksgiving trip to see my family, which I didn't demand and made every effort to make as pleasant for her as possible.

My arms are down (which means I'm not fighting or being defensive, just being honest and answering everything.)

Help!
Remark

BTW, I've asked my wife what issue(s) there was with going to my family's place for part of Thanksgiving as I thought we had POJA on going. She referred me to this forum.

I'm honoring your suggestion and staying off of a couple of her threads, (my arms still down). But, I don't know what she is referring to.

I know my family offended her years ago and so it's a strain for her to go there. So, I make every effort to minimize that discomfort when we do go. And for sure, I don't demand that she go.

I don't know of anything new.

If someone on the forum does, please help me to know.

OK, I found a reference to my family. She says "It's like an emotional affair with his family". I don't get why she'd say that at this point.
Years ago I was too intimate with them and shared some of wife's and my conversations with them. That stopped years ago. I've cut way back on visits to see them and telephone calls to them. I go to work early in the AM as does my brother the dentist. We exchange QOTD (quote of the day) e-mails 3-4 times/week, but the emails just have the uplifting or religious quote in them.

Regardless, her feelings are her feelings. I don't what/how to make things any better for her.

As I said, if I need to cut all ties with family, I will. I am struggling to see things from her perspective and I don't really know her perspective except for a comment that "it feels like he's having an emotional affair with his family".

I don't know why she would say that.

I'm sharing more with you all forum folks than with anyone else on the planet. Though I wasn't on my PC over Thanksgiving, I've been glued to this forum every waking hour at home since save for a leaking toilet tonight.

I'm not arguing her position, but am trying to understand it and why she'd feel that way.

remark

So is your wife

ENTHUSIASTIC

about going to see your family? Or is she

RELUCTANT?

Notice that I'm not asking about the reason for her feelings. I am asking about what those feelings are.

It doesn't matter why. The policies still apply. It's important to learn to quit questioning why your wife feels the way she does. It makes it sound like you believe she might be wrong to feel the way she does, which is a sure love busters.

You have a habit of jumping straight from "my wife feels this way" to "why?", skipping entirely over "is she enthusiastic or reluctant?"

If you want to transform your marriage into a marriage that makes your wife happy, you need to replace the habit of asking why with the habit of finding out if she is enthusiastic or reluctant.

It was interesting to me that I advised you to go find out if your wife was enthusiastic about visiting your family or not, and your comments included things like "I don't know what her current reluctance is centered on. I'm trying to find out from her." It's like you completely passed over the question I meant: is she enthusiastic or reluctant?


Notice that I didn't say go find out why?

I didn't see an answer to this.

OK, she feels that way.
Shouldn't she communicate that instead of suggesting that we go to spend part of Thanksgiving with them?

She says "she's done"!
Remark

OK, I SEE THAT SUBTLE DIFFERENCE. Enthusiastic vs. reluctant.

I believe Dr. Harley recommended in your radio show that you stop trying to tell your wife what Marriage Builders says she should do. I agree with him on that, and in fact I'd specifically say that if you want your wife to be happy in your marriage, you should take about 6-12 months off from doing so.

By the way, any time you use the word "should," you are almost always making a Disrespectful Judgment. You definitely are here. Keep a written record of your DJs; put this one down on it.


That's right. She's done, and she doesn't care what she should do for the marriage. It is up to you to become so fantastically good at this stuff so fast that it will give her a reason to want to do anything for your marriage. Right now she doesn't care, and it's up to you to change that, using the techniques here.

So, let's table what she should do, and talk exclusively about what you need to do if you want to change this situation so that she is happy in your marriage. Do you want that? If so, you're going to need to filter out 100% of all "should" statements about your wife, and you're going to need to stay focused on the topic of what you need to do, with no tangents about what other people ought to do.

For now, that is all you need to know about her feelings about anything. Make it multiple choice for yourself: a) enthusiastic, b) reluctant. Listen to what she has to say, and then pick the best matching answer out of a or b.

In this case she's definitely not enthusiastic about seeing your family, right? So, if you are going to follow the Marriage Builders plan for saving your marriage, what does the Policy of Joint Agreement say you should do about this?

Remark, you have tremendous potential for improvement here. You are doing things that she perceives as selfish demands and disrespectful judgments literally every day. Almost every post, in fact.

That's not uncommon for many men. It's also not uncommon to not even realize what your wife finds disrespectful, and to be totally unaware that you're making DJs with every other sentence out of your mouth. When I showed up here on this forum I was in the same boat: I believed I was following this program to the letter and I was never engaging in love busters, and I had no idea why my wife was so upset.

That's normal, but we've got to get you educated about disrespect and how to identify it and how to eliminate it.

For now, realize this: the goal is not to avoid demands and disrespectful judgments in some abstract sense - the goal is to avoid anything that she PERCEIVES as demanding or disrespectful. That means if she perceives it as demanding or disrespectful, for whatever reason, even if you think her reasons are wrong, even if you didn't mean it as demanding or disrespectful, you have got to eliminate it.

This is actually spelled out in Love Busters (the book). Dr. Harley explains that the standard to go by is whether or not your spouse feels you are being demanding (or disrespectful, or angry). For the purpose of following the Marriage Builders plan, if she feels you are, you are.

And let me tell you as a neutral observer, you are disrespectful all the time.

We can teach you to stop that.

Yes, I have Five Steps to Romantic Love. I will go back through it.
No, she won't participate.
I don't see where I commit disrespectful judgements.

Today's crisis had to do with ea I had 8 yrs ago. I exchanged emails with my high school sweetheart not having a clue that was an affair. I have not seen this woman since 1974 and live 800 miles away. I mentioned that in this thread. Wife can't understand and asked 5-6 times why I would mention the 800 miles. I explained to contextualize it. Dr H talks about leaving town, and changing jobs. None of that applies, but I patiently kept engaged and endeavored to answer yet another way as she kept asking for "relevance".
Ultimately, I agreed the "800 miles away " reference minimized the sin somewhat.
Her feelings are her feelings. I thought this was all put to bed years ago when it was discovered and i ended it, 8 yrs ago. All of this was discussed at length 8 yrs ago.
No angry outburst from me. And I don't perceive I DR either.
Remark

Teach me!
I gotta know. 'Every other sentence.,.,'
I feel like all I'm doing is answering her question. What, specefically am I doing wrong.
You've seen several today. Every other sentence. Which ones.
Thx

Don't just read it. Start following the procedures in it. Seriously, take one lesson a week. I'll be happy to work through it with you.


We know.


I just pointed one out to you a minute ago when you were talking about what your wife should do. Did you realize that was disrespectful?

Yes, I want that. I can see where "should" gets into DJ territory.

Start that written record. Make yourself a weekly worksheet.

No, I didn't realize that. Perhaps I would have been better to ask for clarification of enthusiasm or reluctance given she suggested we visit them.

I'd take markos up on that offer if I were you.

When you think about her feelings about this over the past few years, were they reluctant, or enthusiastic?

If she was reluctant about it, and nothing has changed that would change her feelings about it, she's probably still reluctant. I think she would be annoyed to have you ask for clarification in this case - I think she made her feelings clear in the past, and you went ahead and did what she was reluctant about, she was hurt, and decided that it didn't do any good to share her feelings with you.

When your wife lets you know that she is reluctant/not enthusiastic about something (not necessarily in those words), don't just wait for her feelings to randomly change. Find an alternative or a different set of circumstances that you think she might be enthusiastic about. If you can't think of an alternative right away, just wait until you can.

Here's a post Dr. Harley made to me a few years ago:

I I will.

I am going to take Markos up on it, but am tied up until late tonight, 'round 10 PM, starting in 30 minutes. Have boy scouts with son until then.
And, Thank you

Remark

Glad to hear it

BTW, have you snooped for an affair?

No. Honesty is her biggest virtue and EN. As neglected as she is, she's above that.

I'm re-reading Five Steps Chapts on overcoming LBs in anticipation of Markos.

Remark

So was I.

But I had an EA anyway.

She's very vulnerable to an affair, and the way she claims to be done and the flippant divorce threats are red flags.

Start snooping. I wish markos had. It would have saved us a lot of grief.

As much as you've listened to the radio show, it sounds like at least one major point has failed to sink in, then.


Remark, here's my suggestion.

Over this week and next, let's read the Selfish Demands chapter of Love Busters and the beginning of the workbook through to page 47. Fill out the memorandum of agreement on page 16 and give it to your wife. Don't expect her to sign it or to be happy - from her point of you have made this commitment before and failed to follow up on it, and the only difference to her now is that years have gone by and she's more hurt and upset. But give it to her anyway.

Fill out the love busters questionnaire as best as you can, about you, from your wife's perspective.

Fill out the Selfish Demands inventory and the strategy to replace Selfish Demands with Thoughtful Requests. Keep a selfish demands worksheet over the next week: any time your wife or we say that you are being demanding to her, write that down on the worksheet. If your wife gets upset at you at any point during the next week, post here, and let's see if we can find a selfish demand from you involved.

For the information your write down on these worksheets, post it here as well. We will have feedback.

I'll be doing the same thing out here. Write here about your progress each day and anything you read that sheds any light on how your wife feels about your marriage.

Meantime don't forget to listen to the Marriage Builders radio show daily.

Start snooping.

By the way, here is a list of ways I've compiled over the past few years that I or other people I've heard about have been disrespectful to their spouse.

sarcasm
criticism
judgment: stating that their perspective is wrong
"should"
lecturing/attempting to educate
gestures, facial expressions, body language
expressing surprise or shock at an opinion or feeling or belief
saying that something is "obvious" (in other words, you "should" realize this or "should" know it)
disrespecting your spouse's feelings instead of accepting the fact that they do feel that way

guilting, shaming
hyperbolizing
always/never
exaggerated words
scolding
name-calling, labelling
saying or doing something you know your spouse identifies as disrespectful

comparisons: if I had done such a horrible thing as you, I'd be doing more to make up for it

defensiveness

minimizing -- "just" -- you just say that because ... [Translation: I don't have to address your complaint.]
psychoanalyzing your spouse
explaining away your spouse's feelings or complaints

attributing motivations
blaming, fault-finding
expecting them to read your mind


I statements may help, but are not an excuse for a disrespectful judgment:
I feel like (DJ)
I feel unloved.
I feel like you don't love me.

I have had that sense throughout this entire thread, but since no one else pointed it out, I felt I must have misread the red flags.

There just seems to be too much demonizing and portraying of the Too Little, Too Late, and I'm done, these changes are just temporary.....

All while this man sincerely seems to be learning and slowly applying these new habits.

I would believe that many BH's on here would have proclaimed that their WW's could never have been so dishonest, etc...

SNOOP!!!

And keep studying, learning and applying the lessons being taught.

LTL

That's a Great List to start recognizing erroneous comments, attitudes and behaviors.

Thanks for posting it.

LTL

Btw, I just read JDTD's reply to Prisca's comment/observation and am glad there is potential technical transparency.

Are there any OS friends who are "Just Friends" though?

LTL

Remark, your wife's use of the word "ludicrous" is concerning. Don't discuss it with her any further. Just quietly snoop, especially in the coming months/years. If she has nothing to hide, this will not bother her. Such transparency is good for marriage.

If you ever do find anything, don't post it. Notify the mods who will be able to help you.

Don't discuss snooping with her. Don't discuss the possibility of an affair. Just keep an eye on her because it is a very real possibility. She's vulnerable.

Such as the male coworker.

And don't think that just checking her email or phone is enough, because she can delete everything before you check.

Keep in mind that we are not saying she is ABSOLUTELY having an affair. But she is exhibiting certain behaviors that suggest it is a possibility. So snooping for awhile will either prove her innocence or prove her guilt, and either way you will be better off knowing for certain what you are facing.

Four years ago when markos and I first joined this forum, I was just as "done" as your wife claims to be. Some people suggested to him that I might be having an affair. He blew them off.

I wasn't having an affair at the time they suggested it, but I was very vulnerable to having one. Eight months later, I started an EA.

Keep in mind that she's vulnerable. Being "done" with the marriage makes one vulnerable.

Now, how are any interactions going on today?

Keep up with the tutoring lessons from Markos and the other vets.

You can do this. I know you are struggling to get it, but keep practicing and it will become 2nd nature to you.

Now, don't drop off the face of the earth. Now is the time to really push forward and learn.

When your W sees continued improvements, then she will see what the both of you can build Together.

LTL

Thanks LTL and everyone,

Last night was a very late night. We talked until after 3:00 AM. (I was exhausted as I've been getting little sleep of late and I usually start work at 6:00 AM.)

I had no AO's but did catch myself saying "I'm trying" 3-4 times. As tired as I was, eye contact slipped now and again, too, she pointed out.

She wants to go to plan B as some have advised her on her thread.

Soldiering on and hoping to interact with Markos and vets,
remark

Remark, don't discuss Plan B with her. That's her decision to make if she chooses, not a decision that a couple makes.

I strongly encourage you not to stay up late having relationship discussions. Prisca and I used to do that all the time in the days before Marriage Builders, and it never led to any good.

When your marriage is good again, you may want to stay up that late having FUN discussions, but that's something different (and I still suggest getting a good night's sleep!)

Agreed. You are setting yourself up for failure by doing that, since nobody could manage to keep eye contact that late at night and sleep deprived.

Remark, is your wife welcome to snoop on you, check up on you, etc., in any way she chooses?

Time to man up and be completely honest.

Your Wife does not accept your minimizations of the Deleted Texts and that still stabs her to this day, while minimizing those actions have been partially why she doesn't givea dang anymore.

A person who has nothing to hide, hides nothing.

Why did you previously delete those texts?

What are you currently doing in todays timeframe that triggers her to remember that so distinctly?

What else can you change? How about Radical Honesty to your Wife about those types of triggers?

LTL

Yes, nothing to hide.

Agreed. Nothing to hide.
What triggers?. I don't know besides unmet ENs for years, and current LBs.
Why delete emails? Because I was an idiot who, 8 yrs ago, was stupid and curious about old flame who's name he saw in paper. I was an idiot, yet smart enough to realize I probably delete the emails. Guilty on that. Foolish, stupid, idiotic. No excuses.
Am radically honest and desiring of mutual extraordinary precautions, radical honesty and meeting each other's ENs without committing LBs. It's frustrating not being able to get us there,

Yes, absolutely.

Please use the "Quote" feature, like I just did, so we can follow what you are replying to.

Yes, absolutely.

Based on a discussion today, I have some insight into some 'triggers' which cause her to feel disrespected.

About 10 days ago, she mentioned to me that the flapper in one of the toilets needed replacing, because the toilet leaked enough for the toilet to refill itself every so often. So, I went and replaced the flapper in that toilet.

It was still acting up a few days later, (last Wednesday) so, without additional conversation, I stopped on my way home from work and got a new Fluidmaster float mechanism ($10) fix that as it was catching or something and not working. In that process, the flexible hose from the all to the toilet got crimped and has a slow drip that still isn't fixed.

OK, to the issue. We had a significant discussion on this topic today as from her perspective, I violated POJA by doing anything more than just the flapper.

From my perspective, I thought I had been asked to replace the flapper, which I took as tantamount as 'fix the toilet'. So, as long as I had to spend nominal money to do it, (not replacing the whole toilet or involving a plumber, etc.) I had the authority to do so.

In our conversation, since I bought additional parts on a subsequent trip to the hardware store, I violated POJA in doing so. She related it to this example. "Say we discussed it and we agreed that I was going to the golf sporting goods store to buy some new golf balls. On that trip, not only did I buy golf balls, but new golf clubs and a golf getaway trip because they were having a sale." (Readers, this was her example; It didn't happen. It was simply what she was characterizing my purchase of a couple more parts totaling $27 so I could fix the toilet.)

So, that triggers her into the position of me being disrespectful.

OK, I understand that.

In describing POJA, Dr H uses the exercise of shopping at a grocery store together. In another example, he uses the example of asking if he can take the trash out. I recall the example, but I don't recall the meaning or context. Of course, a spouse doesn't need to ask for permission to go to the bathroom. Should one also consult spouse on taking the trash out or on additional parts for a toilet repair, when he thought he had been asked to repair it with the request to "replace the flapper"?

I love all of the Harley concepts. Where, though, does POJA start/stop on something like this?

I one of us buys anything, even like needed new underwear, without checking with the other, is that a POJA violation?

Please, I need some feedback on this one.
Thanks,
remark

If that is how she felt then that is how she felt. It does not need to make sense, it is just the way it is.

You will find that the POJA gets easier and easier the more you do it. Reason is that you will both come to understand when an agreement needs to be revisited. In this case it needed to be revisited. Apologise for your mistake and say that next time you will know.

OK, Thanks.

If that's how she feels, That's how she feels.

I will apologize.

Thanks again,
remark

These situations where she complains and you debate her are killing your marriage. If she lets you know that you have upset her, that is valuable information. Thank her for it. Don't try to persuade her that you didn't do anything wrong.

How far does POJA go?


http://www.marriagebuilders.com/mb.cfm/4/29/282

The point of the POJA is to learn how to not bother your wife. If your wife wants to be consulted when you buy toilet parts, make a sandwich, brush your teeth, or go to the bathroom, then tell her you will check with her first before doing any of these. It's that simple.

If it never bothers your wife when you buy new underwear and you know she's already enthusiastic, then you don't need to talk to her before buying it first. However, if it sometimes bothers your wife when you buy new underwear, then you should check with her each time to find out if she is enthusiastic.

Can your wife access your work email and computer?

Not really. I can show her my company e-mails on my cell phone, which I'll be happy to do.

I will offer that up to her.

Thanks

OK, I understand that. I think, thought that she didn't feel controlled. She felt disrespected. I am the one that felt micro-managed and controlled, based on a misunderstanding. (The misunderstanding being I thought we had POJA to 'fix the toilet' when we only , apparently, had POJA to 'replace the flapper'.

Sure, I can and did apologize. But, my words, especially apologies, ring hollow. My BEHAVIOR needs to change and evidence a new, better, me.

Yes, I agree that I need to stop debating, though it seems to me like me just sharing a perspective like she does. It IS killing us.

Am I on track?
remark
P.S. went with color red as I don't know how to use reply, quick reply, quote, quick quote, etc, effectively yet. Apologies

I read the above POJA link again. I know, without a doubt she would say that is for reason no. 3. She feels I am making decisions
that don't take her feelings into account.

I our current state/situation, I don't believe anything but my actions of honoring her wishes and therefore her perspective, will prove to her I am a changed husband. Since we have talked for years about how I perceive she controls me. So, for me to just give up on that concept might be a tough reality to embrace WITHOUT MY GENUINE ACTIONS TO BACK UP THAT CONCEPT.

Will simply have to prove it! Period. (I know that talk is cheap and actions speak louder than words.)

Remark

Then your marriage is not going to survive. Can you fix this? Can you leave that job?

Do you have remote access to your work computer?


No, she needs to be able to access it without your knowledge.

It's not really about your current situation - in EVERY marriage, every decision must be made in such a way that it takes the feelings of both into account. This is how it works in good marriages that are not in crisis, and this is how they stay out of crisis.


I'm a little worried that you sound like you think you have to prove it and then this can all be over - the POJA needs to be for life, if you want to avoid making your wife feel controlled.

If your wife doesn't want you doing something that doesn't mean you are "controlled." That simply means that it would bother her for you to do it. She can't change that, so if you want a happy marriage, don't do it!

"Controlled" would be if either of you is making the other do something. Waiting patiently until you find a win-win solution is not being controlled - it is having a good marriage.

Don't be judgmental about what bothers your wife. Ask MelodyLane about lettuce.

Markos,
Next weekend, my oldest daughter is receiving her PhD in Des Moines, (where we were for Thanksgiving and I have several family members.) We are invited up there for her graduation ceremony and some dinner festivities that evening. My wife's finals week is the week after. So, she has suggested that my son and I attend the festivities while she stays here and studies.

Given that you've had some interaction with her on her thread re: POJA, reluctance vs. enthusiasm, and independent behavior, what do you think we should do?

I can enthusiastically support going up there for the festivities and call it POJA. It sounds to me like she is enthusiast about it as well. It's not independent behavior if both parties support it, right?

I'm asking because I have a bad track record of decisions like this one.
Thanks,
Remark

Markos,
Yes, I realize it is a life-style change, a permanent one.
My meaning is that my words sound like a sales pitch to my wife. So, simply saying or promising something is not going to prove, to her, anything at all. Sustained better behavior as a husband will win her over, but not words.
Doesn't that make sense?
Remark

Markos,
I have a work laptop PC which I bring home every night. It would violate my company's policy if I were to give the logon password and such to anyone.
Even though it violates my company's policy, I will show her the log on sequence and my password and offer that up. (Just don't tell my company!)
I am an open book with nothing to hide.
Alternatively, my phone gets all my company and personal email. She is welcome to my phone anytime she wants, including when I am asleep or when the phone is in the charger. She knows the password to my phone (which is her birthday.) (Since my phone gets company e-mail, it has to be password-protected.)
Can you live with either/both of those options?
Thanks,
Remark

Melodylane,
(This isn't so much in response to anything. It's just the best way I knew to get in touch with you.)

1. I'm supposed to ask you about "lettuce", with regard to being controlling. Page 30, dialogue between Markos and me, remark.
2. Also, please read my post related to what I can and can't do re: my company laptop PC which I bring home every night as I an on call. You and Markos are both inquiring about how my wife can look at all my emails.
The short version is, I'm not supposed to give anyone the password to it. But, I will to my wife for the sake of our marriage. And, I'll have to teach her how to log on to our network with my corporate PC as there are several steps. She already has access to my phone which is password protected because I receive all of my company and personal emails on it as well. The password is her birthday. I welcome snooping and as far as I'm concerned, I have lived by extreme precautions for several years now.
Thanks,
Remark

Extreme precautions, radical honesty

OK, To my wife, I have given
(1) given instructions on how to logon to my work PC to check my email whenever she is compelled.
(2) given her all my known passwords to Amazon, password accounts, ebay and all other websites, etc.
(3) the PIN to my phone and iPad
(4) I just got a 1% raise and a nominal bonus last Friday, and today's MB radio reminded me of that. It had simply fallen off my radar screen and I had forgotten about it.
(5) She is aware of all my bank accounts, and has access to the
(6) She already has my personal (home) PC password which, like my son's PC, has Convenant Eyes on it.

Can anyone think of anything else I might do to be more accountable with regard to radically honest?

Thanks,
remark

I sure would!


Who, me? It doesn't bug me in the slightest what you do or don't do. But your wife can't live without openness and transparency!

Is she welcome to check up on you any time she wants using any means necessary? If you suddenly discovered her remotely viewing your screen at work while you are working (I discovered my wife doing this today! ) would she have to face any consequences from you?

Great!

Small note: I am really vigilant about identifying disrespect and possible disrespect. Your wife might feel like the word "compelled" is disrespectful. Some people might see it as psychoanalyzing, i.e., saying she is obsessive compulsive.

Hopefully not, but I thought I'd mention it! It wouldn't hurt to say "whenever she desires," and add "for any reason."

Glad you were listening to the show today; there are a lot of great comments about openness and honesty (I'm just now listening).

I will post my lettuce fight incident in the next post.


As you should. She should have access to everything because your wife comes before your career. I work for a Fortune 500 company and my H has access to my laptop and I have access to his. I even have a way to see every call that comes into his desk phone!


good deal!

2007

Did you notice how horribly disrespectful I was about my husbands opinions in that post? I dismissed his views as "micky mouse."

Amazing how my husband relaxed when I stopped doing that to him. No more angry outbursts and the use of the POJA makes us feel like we are a CLOSE COUPLE now. We are partners.

Markos,
WOW! I hadn't thought of that!
My answer: No, she would have no consequences from me. I know our PC support folks have that ability as they have periodically resolved issues on my PC. But, though welcome to do so from my perspective, I don't know how my company would deal with it, allow her through my firewall from her work place or home PC, etc.

Bottom line though, she'd have no issues from me.

And, just so we're clear, I have already given her the involved instruction set of how to log onto my company PC and log on as me and all my passwords and PINs to PC's (work and home) phone and iPad.
Anxious to be trustworthy and trusted,
Thanks, remark

Fantastic, Remark.

Did you get that chapter of Love Busters read, yet?

Surely she can get in through the same access route as you, right?

Crap!

Honest, I meant no disrespect or implication by 'compelled'. Thanks, 'desires' or 'for whatever reason' does sound better.

Thanks,
remark

I'm on page 58 of the new edition reading it in detail, having read the older edition several years ago. And I have read/updated the pages you mentioned of the Five Steps workbook through page 47.
Where did you suggest I read through of LB newer edition before we start?
Thanks,
remark

Us disrespectful guys usually don't mean any disrespect at all!

It's a matter of learning what can be perceived as disrespectful and learning to filter it out. I recommend developing a very strict filter!

WOW! That is cool! How does one do that without knowing McGee on NCIS?!?

Go check out EJH's thread tonight here on MB101. Notice how the instinct is for the person to argue that they are not being disrespectful. And notice how it's not helpful at all. If all we ever do is prove that we didn't mean to hurt, we'll lose our marriages.

Ouch? No, no, let me explain.

I'm not sure what that means.........'access route'.
Understand I cannot access my work stuff from my home PC. I use my company-supplied and configured PC to log into the company's network and that allows me to work from home as necessary.

Beyond that, I'm not savvy enough to know how one would use PCANYWHERE or whatever to log into my PC while I'm on it, if I understand you correctly. I know our PC support people have that ability, but I don't have a clue how they do it.

I log onto my PC, invoke ie (browser) and go to a secured website that connects me to our network after I've done about six different things including invoking this thing that creates a random password that is only good for 2 minutes. So, when logging on remotely, I have 2 minutes to successfully log on, or I have to start over again. I don't know how it works beyond that.

Thanks, remark

Yes, thank you ML. Yep. I noticed. I use terms like that also which tends to have negative effects on my wife's interaction and response.
And, I relate to your husband as I feel relaxed also and seem to AO without yelling or cussing. At least, wife says I have AO when I think I'm only sharing my perspective as she was hers.
Great insight on how the IB fosters AO and vice versa.

Thanks, remark

It "Sounds" like you are allowing complete technical transparency.

But, would your Wife agree?

Her view is the only one that matters.

LTL

LTL,

You are correct. At this point, I doubt that she'd agree. I am just focused on being honest, transparent and trustworthy, period.

Hopefully, over time, she'll see and realize that.

Thanks,
remark

I should clarify that my husband had to accept that his angry outbursts were caused ONLY by him in order to resolve them. And yes, even though he wasn't "yelling or screaming" he was having an angry outburst. An angry outburst doesn't have to involve yelling or cussing to be an angry outburst. With him it involved gritted teeth and obvious anger.

Eliminating my IB helped, but nothing would have helped if he had not accepted that only HE is the cause of his angry outbursts.

Understood.
I will manage myself so there are no AO's from me.
thanks, remark

Yes, Markos, I have completed all of Chapt 1 on Selfpsh Demands. Four rules for engagement. (1) Set negotiating ground rules to keep it safe and pleasant (2) Identify the issue from both perspectives (3) Brainstrom with abandon (4) don't settle for any alternbative solution that doesn't accomplish POJA.
I'm ready for the test.

Marcos,

I am reading on in LB ON Disrespectful Judgements as I look forward to hearing back from you.
Thx,
Remark

Hi, Remark,

I am reading, too, and will get back to you soon.

Excellent. Thanks
BTW, I am out of town 'til Sunday night attending daughter's college graduation. May not be able to get back to you until Sunday night.
Thanks,
Remark

Mario, I am reading on in LB AND LOOKING FORWARD TO WORKING WITH YOU.

OK, Help me here please, forumers,

Question 1.
My wife and I seem to be at an impasse and I can't figure out why and she wouldn't want to do POJA with me right now, all the while accusing me on being the one who doesn't/won't do POJA. Can someone explain that to me?

Question 2.
If we discuss something, and she asks me my perspective, does raising your voice in a discussion count as an angry outburst?

Question 3.
IB, Independent Behavior has been and issue for many years. She likes to garden, and I like to play softball or go to church and bible study group. Those have been issues for many years. OK, it has been a big struggle for me to give them up as I see them as good healthy things, that she used to do with me, but has opted out. (She also is going to school to finish her degree, so her time is precsious.)
The point is, it has been a big issue between us for years. Now, she has reversed her position and won't agree to no IB for either of us.
Can someone explain that one to me?

Thanks, Remark

Is this about your behavior or your wife's? Because if it is your wife's, you are not supposed to be trying to prove her wrong.

3. She is planning to leave which requires IB.

Well, hers I guess. I stand accused of being a Harley believer, but not a Harley practioner. Yet, I believe in POJA, yet my withdrawn wife won't do POJA with me.

OK, don't attempt to prove her wrong. So, what does that mean, if we're (both of us) advised to do POJA?

So, her IB is OK? I don't understand.

You said it yourself,she is withdrawn.

ETA: you cannot expect her buy-in at this point. You are at the stage of building a very basic level of trust. You need to focus on fixing yourself (ie, eliminating LBs and meeting ENs) rather than correcting your withdrawn spouse.

What is your action plan for the week? It is Tuesday so you should be 40% through a thorough plan of action. If not,fill out an hourly planner with each action step.

For example, Wednesday:Up early to Make coffee and start dishwasher. Invite spouse to watch the Hobbit tonight followed by dinner at favorite restaurant. (Get tickets and make reservations)

Also, stop carrying on mental arguments with your wife. They predispose you to DJs and defensiveness. If you catch yourself doing this, tell yourself to stop and that your spouse is a good person who is very hurt.

This requires some clarification - how exactly can we help YOU with YOUR behavior here?



Yes. And the proper response is; "This conversation is no longer pleasant, can we discuss it later?"


So, yes. YOU should stop engaging in independent behavior if you want your wife to fall back in love with you.




[/quote]

Remind me please. What did Dr. Harley say to you on your call?

Radio Clip of Remark and JustDaytoDay's Call
Segment #2
Segment #3
Segment #4
Segment #5

BTW Remark, did you ever expose your affair? I've never heard you mention telling your family.

As for your wife's behavior, Read Matthew 7:3-5.

Sort of. Back whenever it was (2006 or 2007 I'm guessing) , (1) I in no way considered it an affair. (2) I did mention it to my sister, and perhaps brother, and no one thought some emails were an affair. At least, it wasn't discussed as an affair. It was a non-event. Even I didn't consider it an affair until about a year ago as I got into Harley principles.

Yep, Got it. Read it. She has said that a lot.
Agreed.

Which requires IB on my part? her part? both parts?

He said she is in withdrawal and I need to stop LB's. When that happens, hopefully, she will re-engage. He said she feels like I don't value her wishes, her perspective over my own. I need to focus on eliminating the LBs., all of them.

What does ETA: mean?

"Edited to add".

^^You should quit saying that because it isn't true. You admitted that you deliberately hid the relationship from your wife. You knew it was wrong or you would not have done that.

What did Dr. Harley say?

Also, you never addressed what your action plan for the week is. So what is it?

The way I read HN,HN, I take it to mean noth spouses. In his case, Dr Harley does few things without Joyce, and Joyce does several things without Dr H. But, since they are church activites, choir, ladies Bible Study, which he approves of, those are not considered IB, is what I understand.

If either party doesn't approve of the activity, I think that makes it IB. Is that what more seasoned MB'ers think?

I've been on the forum, reading Love Busters and the Five Steps, and answering her questions on why I did certain things my way rather than doing what she wanted to do much of this week. Tonight she is at her class and our son had a piano recital. We just got home.

In her withdrawal state, she wants nothing to do with me.

Independent behavior is anything you do with no regard for your spouse that effects your spouse in any way.

Mark,

You probably don't mean it that way, but you come across as someone who has difficulties changing his habits aka stubborn. Because many of your questions are about if something was "right" or "wrong".

The better approach to you wife's complaints is not: I'm not sure if you understood Dr Harley correctly, but: "how would you like me to do it better next time" and then do it.

You are getting nowhere by proving that you were right/ you didn' mean it in a bad way/ giving excuses for why you did the thing you did.
Have you worked on taking your wife for a date to a place she would like if she would like to go?

Makes sense. I will use that approach. Thank you. Remark

Did you sign up for classmates.com and not tell your wife? And try and hide it by setting up a rule to have all sent emails deleted?

OK, I understand that. I seem to struggle with a reply to my wife or even people on the forum without coming across as defensive, or arrogant, or even offensive. Please advise me on what I'm doing wrong in that regard.

OK ,I won't focus on who's wrong or right. I already apologize more than she cares to ear. Instead I will ask "OK, what can I do better next time?" and then do it.

No, I haven't focused on what or where I can have a date with her, assuming she'd agree. From a schedule perpsecitve, whe was not available until yesterday as she had a class she was taking that comsuned her every spare minute until thie past Thursday. I'll let you know what I might come with in this regard.

If whe won't agree to a date, what do I do?
Thanks, Remark

Apples123, You have the same concern expressed by my wife.

OK, I will no longer say "I didn't ever consider it an Affair", as I did know it would be detrimental to my marriage if she knew about it.

I own my mistake back then. I knew it was wrong then and I, at minimum, knew it was detrimental to my marriage by virtue of the fact that I kept it a secret. She caught me, confronting me on it in front of our pastor. I know it's far-reaching ramifications, and know it was an emotional affair. We discussed it. I own it. I cannot regret it more.

I have confessed it not only to pastor and counselor, and not sure who all else eight years ago. I've repented, ended it eight years ago and never done anything like since.

I have discussed it many times over the past eight years reinforcing its devastating effect on us and our marriage.

What can I do at this point? Do you think ressurecting it now by making it more public will serve a purpose given it ended eight years ago? I have been open about it for the past eight years, I think.

What would compensatory compensation look like at this point so that it might give closure?

Humbly, Remark

Remark, I have been following your thread. (And rooting for you and your marriage!)


You say this... a couple times in this thread it seems you have minimized and rationalized the EA.

I understand most people who are not familiar with MB principles would not use the word "affair" to describe what you did, but even if you did not think it was "wrong" at the time, you knew it would upset your wife or you would not have tried to hide your activity.

You say you have rehashed this several times with your wife.

I am a woman I have experienced great challenge at times "letting things go" even after an apology and discussion. That was times when my husband's apology felt like appeasement. Like his goal was not to connect with me and help me feel better, but rather to SHUT. ME. UP. so he could move on with his life. When he did that, I was like a dog with a bone.

On the other hand, when he acknowledges what he did and why my unhappiness is legitimate, I find I couldn't stay upset even if I wanted to. I feel cared for and understood and I love him more for it.

For example - the other day I was in a situation I found really irritating due to IB on DH's part. He called me and the first thing he said was "I'm sorry." I asked "Do you know what you're sorry for?" And he said "I _____." and he nailed it. We both laughed and that was the end of it. All the energy was gone from my irritation. If he had explained why he did what he did and why I shouldn't be upset I would have felt patronized and like he did not understand my feelings at all.

Back to you - It sounds like you're on the right track in regards to the EA now. In previous posts you said "I didn't consider it wrong, my family didn't consider it wrong." (Something like that, I'm paraphrasing.)

Being told that would infuriate me if I was your wife and I would be hard pressed not to harp and harp and harp on you about it because I would feel like even though may know that I am upset, you don't think I should be (I feel my own chest tightening just imagining this) and 2) you were more worried about defending your behavior that considering my point of view, and yet 3) we both know you knew d*mn well at the time that your actions would upset me or you would not have tried to hide what you did.

On the other hand, if you told me "I'm so sorry. I was immature and self indulgent. I knew it would upset you if you knew, but I did it anyhow because it stroked my ego and I figured it was harmless - that what you didn't know wouldn't hurt you. But now I understand so much more how even if you hadn't found out I was hurting our marriage ...etc... - whatever the truth is about why you did what you did, how you understand why it hurt her and your marriage - that may go a lot further in helping your wife move on.

Every time you explain why you did something you did in a way that shifts blame it gives the impression that you're only sorry you got caught and have to deal with the headache of explaining and appeasing now.... The actual transgression may be very minor, but, at least for me personally, feeling like my spouse does not take my concerns seriously (because he's busy explaining why what he did was a reasonable thing to do) is not minor at all.

Hope this helps with some female perspective.

Years ago, I think I did do the free version when it came to me in a spam or advertisement email. But, it requires a bona fide paid subscription to do anything now I learned as I investigated to respond to this e-mail. I unsubscribed as of that research so as to not get e-mails from Classmates.com.
I am unsubscribing from anything that might be compromising like that.
I do have a Facebook account which I only use to keep track of my five children. I use it to hold my kids accountable and see what they're posting once in a while.
Thanks,
Remark

Thanks, Anywife. That all sounds like great feedback from person with a similar perspective as my better half.

I seem to come across to her in an arrogant, offensive way when I don't mean to at times.

In future conversations, I will acknowledge my wrong doing, with less defensiveness and more humility.

A difference,perhaps, bet ween you and my wife, is that she has heard so many apologies at this point, that apologies mean nothing to her. They come across as a "sales pitch".

Thanks, remark

Not apologizing anymore is fine. But you should still try to entice her to spend time with you on a fun date if you are to have any hope of saving the marriage. Also if she likes thoughtful gifts like flowers or coffee, or thoughtful actions such as taking out trash,etc.

10-4 Apples. I take every opportunity to do so that I perceive.

Thanks, Remark

Forumers,

Many of my posts as well as verbal responses to my wife are perceived as defensive. What makes them defensive?

If I keep 'I do not', and similar rebutal, negating comments out of my languaage, what is still making them defensive?

Thanks,
Remark

This post is defensive!

Why?

Because you give reasons that seek to invalidate other people's perspectives rather than accept those perspectives for what they are. Instead of saying things to explain yourself, concentrate on receiving clarification from others. You would have been fine if you had stopped with your first paragraph. In your second paragraph, you imply that you think you are doing enough, and that comes across as defensive.

Can you see that?

mrE,
No, I don't see that.
But, thanks. So, I should keep the extraneous information paragraph explanation out of it?
Are there other examples of defensive language or patterns that I use, or perhaps others use, that I might glean defensiveness in and therefore avoid?

Thanks,
Remark

Markos,
A while back, I consolidated two lists of all my passwords onto one and gave it to her. (I had one my work computer for work-related logons and one on my personal, home PC.) I consolidated it onto one as some of the passwords were outdated, updated because I forgot it, or whatever. Some of my work passwords expire every 90 days and need to be reset as well. Two lists on the two computers meant that one was always out of date from the other. So, it was a good exercise to consolitate them even for my own purposes.

Anyway, my wife is welcome to log into my email and snoop and she did which is the point and design, of course.

Unfortunately, in my email there was an email from classmates.com that I didn't have on my password list. She attempted to go to classmates.com where it required a password. Since it was not on my list, it raised her ire, as I can understand. I didn't join classmates.com, but I believe I did receive an ad/spam email telling me some classmastes had inquired about me. So, I went to the classmates.com website at somne point. But, as I recall, a screenn or two in, it wanted me to register and pay $X.XX/month for the sevice. Well, I wasn't/am not interested in paying for that service. But, they had enough info on me to recall my e-mail address when she went back. And, if I had a password assigned, I don't know what it is/was.

I get other spam e-mails that alarm her, e-mails which I don't spend time even reading. So, I am taking the time to pull them up and unsubscribe from them.

Also, I had a typo on one of them, so as she tried to log on, it failed, of course.

I hope these are understandable mistakes, as they were not malicious or meant to deceive in any way.

My whole intent was and is to follow the policy of extraordinary measures.

Thanks, Remark

In another thread (Help! I want to do the right thing!) an incident regarding fixing a toilet came up. I think you left a conversation to fix the toilet and your wife was unhappy about that. At some point in the thread you said this (emphasis added by me):


That sounded very defensive to me. Why did you need to let us know the toilet was dripping on the floor? And then you say "this is more important of course."

Tone and attitude don't always come across in writing, so I may be way off, but this is what when through my head when I read those two sentences:

Remark said:
"The leaking toilet is on hold, steadily dripping onto some towels."

Anywife heard:
I feel defensive, like the people on here think everything that is wrong in our marriage is my fault. I need to let you all know that, in this situation at least, my wife is the one who is not being reasonable. Once you know the toilet was literally dripping on the floor, surely you'll understand I did the only reasonable thing and my wife was completely unreasonable to expect me to talk with her while it dripped. I'm trying really hard but what she wants is unrealistic.

Remark Said: "This is more important, of course."

Anywife heard:
"My marriage is more important. I do believe that. But, in this instance surely you can see that the toilet situation was more urgent. Please give me credit for being such a good guy that I am willing to let our floor boards rot in order to try to save my marriage."

Also, are you the one who had a plummer come out to check your work when you had POJA'd that a plummer would do the work? whoever that was, that struck me as defensive and very "I told you so." (H feels defensive that the W wants a plumber to do the work over him, does it on the sly, then uses the technicality of having a plumber out to check his work for free as a way to say he stuck with the agreement, and as an opportunity to say to W - "See? You were wrong to think I could not fix this and to want to hire someone else. And you can't get mad at me because I did call a plumber and I didn't waste any money since I had a coupon."

-------------------
Please note: I am not judging you or saying that you have no reasons to feel defensive or that either you or your wife are right/wrong in any situation. Just giving you examples of things that struck me as defensive. I also tend to be defensive and think "...if they only understood how unreasonable my H can be...!" but I realize now, that's not the point. The point is to stop doing things that upset your spouse, not convince a bunch of people on the Internet that you have good reason for doing the things they find upsetting.

remark,

your wife has described you and this sounds familiar to me. Is there a chance that your have ADHD, or ADD that are contributing to your problems?

Because treatment could contribute majorly to following through and listening to your wife.
I always have trouble listening to my husband, especially if he is having long monologues, my mind wanders. (I have this with patients too, so it is not that I'm unwilling to listen to him.)
And I can drive him crazy by not knowing where I have put things.

AW, I see your points. And, yes, that was me/us. I am ashamed and sick about that incident. That incident is turning out to be he straw of my defensiveness and selfishness that is breaking the back of my marriage.

I read something this morning on defensiveness that hit me between the eyes. It was effectively that if your spouse says that you hurt her in some way, defensiveness validates your position, perhaps, but only AMPLIFIES the inital problem that SHE feels hurt. How profoundly stupid it is of me (or anyone) to be defensive!!!!!
Thank you,
Remark

hh,
Yes, it is possible. I have looked into ADD and ADHD as well as many other options over the years. Working with a counselor and my GP doctor, I tried several different medications which didn't seem to work. One med even gave me a constant low-grade headache, without helping, of course. My doctor said that when we hit the right med, the 'light with come on' and I will realize 'so, this is how the rest of the world lives'. No such light came one.
My wife and I were both disappointed.
Thanks, Remark

Markos,

You OK? I haven't heard from you in quite a while and I was hoping to do the LB series with you. Yes, I've done Chapts 1 and 2.

I hope all is well with you and yours and it is simply the busyness of the season that has stalled our communication.
And, I hope we can continue.
Thanks,
Remark

OMG - That is so true. That explains it so brilliantly! Think about it this way - if you do something that hurts someone, and they explain "That hurts me" and you respond defensively - the message they're going to receive is that you aren't going to stop doing that kind of thing because you feel justified in doing it.

Now, not only have did she make herself vulnerable by telling you that your actions upset her, but she's being told 1) she is wrong to be upset so it's going to continue. And, since she's married to you - how helpless (and probably enraged) must she feel to think that's the kind of "care" and "compassion" and lack of control over the situation she has to look forward to for the rest of her life with you?

I see two ironic things here:

1. If you were not defensive and just changed your action to what your spouse wanted, you'd probably be the hero in the situation.

2. It's really not about blame. Look at LBs - many of the things we do that drive our spouse crazy are not "wrong". (My H is super sensitive to sounds - but is it really wrong for me to eat, drink, and drag my feet when I walk? No. Prior to MB I would have an AO and explain why he was wrong to be so hypersensitive and sprinkle in some DJs on how AMAZING I found his tolerance for his own chewing... Now I understand he's not sitting there thinking I am right or wrong. He just wants the noise to stop. So I leave the room if he's not also eating. And I ditched the slippers that made the scraping sound with every step I dragged across the tile floor.)


I'm curious. Prior to fixing the toilet yourself and all that followed - did you know in your gut that she would not be happy even though you believed you were perfectly justified in what you were about to do and could explain/rationalize it later?

If so, I recommend you start paying attention to that feeling. When you find your brain setting up a justification for actions before you take them - that's a MAJOR CLUE to you that, right or wrong, you are itching to do something that, on some level, you know will upset her. At that moment - Stop. Turn Back. Abort! Abort!!!!!! (or at least discuss it with her before proceeding).

Have you tried meditation? Or other brain exercises?

I am "self diagnosed" but quite positive I am MAJOR ADD. (Once, mid sentence while on the phone with my DH, I stuck my cell phone in my pocket and started talking to people around me then remembered him about 5 minutes later.)

I started meditation - just a few minutes a day - and it REALLY does seem to help calm my spaztic brain. I plan to start that up again. There is an app called CALM that walks you through things that's really good. There are other brain exercise things out there too that I think may be good.

This may not be ADD, but something else that helped me (though I have a long ways to go) is I read this "1 minute rule" tip. I can never shake this "i don't have time I don't have time" feeling, so I never put things away/clean up. The tip said if something takes 60 seconds or less - do it right now. It was like an epiphany for me because even I have 60 seconds... I had not thought before about how little time many things really take - like picking up my clothes, making the bed, emptying the dish washer, etc.

I also stopped being defensive about my spaciness. It really irritates me when DH points out something I've done, but I (usually) just fix it now instead of explaining why I have every right to do that...

AnyWife,
Honestly and sadly, yes, I must admit I feel she would not be happy. I didn't even have the brass to tell her about it when she got home.
I should have, as you said, listened to that voice in my head and aborted.
I failed miserably to honor my wife's wishes and will regret it forever as it seems to be the ultimate back-breaker for her.
Remark

markos has not been around much recently. I'm choosing to believe that with 7 kids, this is the busiest family time of the whole year for him and Prisca.

Thanks, SugarCane. I thought similar, even having forgotten they have 7 kids.

Thanks GW. Good tips. I'll look into the CALM app.
I had pursued ADD/ADHD as I mentioned, but had not heard of the related brain exercises.
My wife and I have talked about the 1 minute rule, though I don't think we called it that. And I believe I am better about that in recent years.

Thanks,
Remark