Hi,

I've had a rough couple of days. My wife had a buddhist spiritual awakening on a retreat we went on over christmas. She is still going through it to some extent. She wants to seperate because she knows that her path forward is now alone. she has become herself and intuitively knows this is her path and I must find my path and walk it. if they cross at a later time then they cross. if they don't they don't.

I'd like to point out: Both my wife and I agree, we were blissfully happy up until her experience. we love each other. I cannot express to you enough how good our marriage was. This is why I am reaching out. I do not have a situation of seperation because of unhappiness or any of the normal reasons. All I know now is that even though she loves me she feels her path takes her away from our marriage. she must be alone in solitude. there is no room for discussion at all. her insight has shown her the true path and that is that.

I'd like to caveat any responses for now by saying i'm not interested in responses about how she is probably cheating or has a man or any of that. I know it's not true. Until something says otherwise it's not worth going through the emotional anguish of reading it. so please don't comment.

I would like to hear from anyone who has had this experience or been through this situation. I would like to hope that this is not the end. I fervently want to keep our marriage together.

thanks in advance. apologies if it is a ramble.

Well it sounds like you only want to hear advice that you pre-approve of,,,,

I dont think I can help you

Were the two of you following a Marriage Builders path?

Following the Policy of Joint Agreement?

So she thinks by destroying a beautiful marriage: it is the path to true happiness and a place of spiritual truth???? Destruction?

I though Buddest's were peace makers and the destroyers of none?

It would be the same as a "God told me this is what we are to do".
It is a no win argument. (And I do believe that she could really think this is a true Revelation.....)

You aren't enthusiastic: it would cause great destruction.

Get a leader to talk to her and don't cooperate at all.

That would be my advise as much as if someone else said "God told me to do xyz". Its bad for her, its bad for you.

Make it hard for her to leave, YOU don't leave your house and keep telling her you only speak peace/pro marriage and not destruction.

If she leaves, she will have to do it herself.

Introduce her to the ideas of Radical Honesty. Policy of Joint agreement.... Undivided Attention time.

bac, have you read the Basic Concepts on this site? There are also some Q&A columns by Dr. Harley that might be relevant to your situation.

Jedi Knight, I'm willing to hear any advice, however I know that there is no other person involved. Just her and universal truth.

She has been in constant email and phone contact with the retreat leader to support her through this 'awakening'. (a well respected teacher in meditation circles) I don't feel there is anything untoward there for anyone whose infidelity ears pop up. He has encouraged her along the buddhist philosophy. to sit with yourself and meditate on buddhist principles. Which I find difficult because it's creating a detachment.

Elaina, can you explain the make it hard for her to leave statement? i think i understand but im not sure.
I will look in to the info on the site.
thanks

This Q&A by dr. Harley might help you a little bit: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5040_qa.html

This is a tough topic - I did quick research on Buddhism (I know very little about the topic) and Buddha himself left his wife and children for the greater good of "enlightenment."

I think you should Plan A her a lot and spend as much time as possible to make things extra romantic. As Elaina said, make it hard for her to leave. If she really wants to take a path of solitude, it is up to her to find it.

In the meantime I suggest you respectfully try to reason with her using the guidelines provided in the link above. You could argue that Buddha was not against marriage and that a husband and wife should only separate if they are so incompatible they can't live together any more, which is not true in your case. You could also argue that Buddha gave guidelines as to how people should conduct themselves in marriage to remain happily married and that divorce is frowned upon in most Buddhist societies. Unless she plans to become a monk, separation does not make sense. The secret however is to remain respectful throughout the conversation. Ask her to do introspection and see if she hasn't interpreted her "awakening" wrongly.

But your greatest weapon is to get her to be so in love with you that she doesn't want to leave, no matter what her religion tells her. People choose love over religion all the time.

I myself married a non-Christian even while I consider myself to be a very zealous Christian and used to believe you shouldn't even marry someone from another church denomination. He has in the meantime converted to Christianity, although he still doesn't enjoy going to church.

You need to get at least 20 hours of undivided attention time to keep her in love (and addicted to) you. If she leaves the house, think about all kinds of excuses to meet up with her and make deposits in her lovebank. Show a lot of affection and you may win her back.

For a better answer, you might want to email dr. Harley himself to see what his take is on this.

Chobitz thanks for the advice.

undivided attention time is pretty tough when all she wants is solitude. She has no interest in movies, or dinner or conversations etc
I would gladly throw all of my time at her however that is making her more withdrawn.
Ill have a read of that link

If she's in constant contact with the guy, that doesn't sound like "sitting alone."

I see something completely untoward in my wife being in constant contact with a man in conversations that exclude me. I would suspect infidelity from such contact - I DEFINE infidelity as consisting of such contact.

As a similar example, if my wife regularly went to have coffee alone with another man, I would see that as a date and consider it to be infidelity.

My wife and I are Christians, and she does not have one on one contact with any of our church leaders. I wouldn't see this as beneficial for spiritual development. And in your case you can see that it is detrimental - a good spiritual leader would encourage your wife to build her marriage, which is a crucial part of spiritual development. And he would certainly not encourage her to be having one on one contact in this manner, because that is detrimental to marriage and thus to the spirit.

A few questions:

How long have you and your wife been married?

Do you have any children?

Were you both Buddhist when you got married, or is this a recent conversion?

Have either of you been married before? Do either of you have children by anyone prior to your marriage?

OK, you're probably going to want to skip this post and move on to the next one.

Bac, you're not going to prove anything "says otherwise" until you eliminate it with proof there's no possibility.

Bac, I was married 28 yrs. Had NO reason to think my H was cheating. I would have staked my life on his faithfulness. Good thing I was never required to do so or I'd be a dead duck now! I was SOOO sure of him.

Please don't cut yourself off of the possibility of recovering your marriage by closing your mind. If you check the possibility of unfaithfulness and find it was a wild goose chase,, so be it..one problem off the map.

LISTEN to the advice. Consider it! These are VERY experienced members offering very knowledgeable help for free. Please take advantage of it!

Your marriage may depend on it!

Good luck!

Thank you all for your replies.
I've known my wife for 16 years. we were best mates as teenagers. lost contact and then reconnected 6 or 7 years ago. We've been married for two. we have a puppy. No kids, no previous marriages. we're both 29. So right now my closest and oldest friend is walking away.
My wife has been in to yoga and meditation for 10 years. I have been interested in it for a long time but only practicing for 3 or 4 years. In terms of buddhism i respect and value the teachings. as does she. She now knows them to be universal truth and the path to happiness is in mindfulness and meditation. nothing else. Prior to this retreat i didn't see any harm from buddhism. recently i've looked around and the practices suggested by most teachers are traditionally for monks and those sorts not for people with families. so the detachment/non-attachment they foster (which clearly changes the wiring in your brain) can be harmful to 'lay people'. so now i'm not so sure about the current teachings. not the content. the concepts are good.
I find their 1 on 1 contact difficult now because she has shut me out of it. however if she needs support from people who have had this experience (and i mean support, she was barely functioning after retreat) then how do i say no? she found a teacher she connects with and appears to be the real deal when it comes to spiritual whatever. and is helping her to be able to identify and understand this transformation of view,insight, truth.
he has seen something in her and realises the process isnt finished and so found a space on his retreat in two weeks time and another space on his retreat in april and has used flyer miles to get her there. I find that weird but I also am not familiar with the concpet of dana or how buddhist circles operate. its about giving when you are able. so if he is able to support her spiritual growth then thats what they do.
she needs privacy and solitude and can't explain her transofrmation in words its pre-cognitive, pre-verbal. she has tried but falls short. she read me an excerpt this morning from a book the teacher sent her. her teacher sent it ot her to help her explain. gist
she says she just wants to be open and honest with communication and that her wanting this and stating it is open and honest. she doesnt want my emotional support. she doesnt want me to hold a space for her to be alone right now she just wants out of our marriage because she knows her previous ideas of life and future wont make her happy and she can't make me happy because she wants to be alone.

she is so rigid in this belief right now. its truth for her. so how do i work with that. do i just give up and say off you go and hope she comes back or I'm not sure of the alternative. She suggested counselling to manage our seperation but has said nothing about using it to stay together.

she wants to continue a relationship with me but not a marriage. she loves me but cant be married to me.
so confused. apologies if thats rambly.

can someone outline the definition of unfaithfulness for me?

The relationship you describe with this "teacher" is exactly how affairs begin. First one need is met and then the others are soon behind. That is how romantic relationships foster and grow.

That is the first place I would look if I were you. I would snoop like a bloodhound so you can put a stop to it. If it is not already an affair, it will be SOON.

It would be helpful if you could be more concise in your posts. There is so much superfluous information [such as needless information about buddism] that it is very hard to understand and follow your story. No one here needs to know about the concepts of buddism. We need you to understand the concepts of MARRIAGE BUILDERS in order to help.

Anything that comes before your marriage will ultimately threaten your marriage. Even if this situation is a simple as your wife pursuing a religious or philosophical path that leads away from your marriage, it is still infidelity in that she is breaking her marital commitment to you. You will have to deal with this as a threat to your marriage, just like an affair. Letting her go down this path without trying to win her back will hurt you just as much as any affair. Frankly, I don't see much of a difference. You will need to employ plan A for as long as two years in an attempt to win her back, and if that doesn't work, then plan B - don't see her, talk to her, or have anything to do with her until she commits to the marriage.

so my post didnt come through or went somewhere else ill rewrite.

Ive read through the basics. The information about an EA does seem a possibiility. whether thats with her teacher or a...spiritual experience I dont know. not sure if thats possible.

It does appear that she is unable to come to me for her emotional needs now. This is a place to start if she is willing (is that necessary?). I can work on building trust and work through my giver and conflict/withdrawl state and her taker withdrawl state. I can also talk to her about an agreement, undivided attention and complete honesty. although the honesty part she says she is there already and being completely honest.

If anyone is able to share how they have approached these conversations I think that might be helpful. I realise every person and relationship is individual but an idea of how these conversations came about may be useful.

"Wants to separate" is code for affair or wants to have an affair.

Dr Harley has said in his experience counseling couples and one wants to separate, it always turns out it's because they have someone waiting in the wings.

I have been here over six years and I have to tell you: Denial is a real problem on this MB101 forum with people who don't want to hear their spouse is probably in an affair. You aren't the first and you won't be the last. And just so that you know, they almost always come back and tell us we were right but sometimes it's too late...

Well, you can't work on building trust unless you snoop and find out how far her "relationship" has gone. If she is having an affair, everything you do will be a waste of time. It is like asking a falling down drunk to follow the 12 steps of AA. Nothing works until he stops drinking.

And MrEureka made a fantastic point that anything that comes before your marriage will destroy it. Obviously, her religion is very destructive to your marriage, so that will be the place to start once you rule out an affair. Her "spiritual advisor" is wrecking your marriage regardless of the relationship.

Can you get some spy resources in place?

Her path won't be "alone." It will be with lover boy. When a woman wants to separate it is so she can carry on an affair unimpeded.

Have you read this?
Snooping: Is it wrong? Or, is it the right thing to do in marriage?

Also these.
Are "Friends" a Threat to Your Marriage?"
The Risk of Opposite-sex Friendships in Marriage
How to Make Your Wife Happy

It's not weird for that man to fly your wife to his retreat (more than once, even), if it's an affair.

I'm not telling you she is having an affair, but you should independently verify what she does. That means don't ask her, use another method.

The very first retreat, did you two go together or did she go alone?

Welcome to marriage builders. You bet he has seen something in her and likely she has too. She is likely over riden with guilt too right now. I (personally)think he is manipulating her at the very least. Don't buy it. Snoop man. Don't ask if she's cheating. Find out for yourself.

She already wants to leave you and is trying to do so in a manner that let's her leave without guilt. You gunna let some dude whisp your wife away to his "retreat" without putting up a fight? How caring is that?

The definition of unfaithfulness is what you make it. There is an article here called what is an affair. You should read it. If your uncomfortable with her interactions with this "teacher" then its unfaithfulness.

MNG

P.s. Don't be a door mat and don't think for a second that you wouldn't get liked to and played. Because if it is an affair they will do their darnedness to make it look like its not.

I would tell her this:

"Wife, I love you and have committed to you for life. I do not want to lose our marriage. I don't want you going on a spiritual journey without me - I want to go with you together. I'm not enthusiastic about you seeing or contacting {spiritual teacher} again. He is harming our marriage and our spiritual journey."

Then I would contact spiritual teacher and I would tell him this:

"Stay away from my wife or else I am going to make your life miserable. If our marriage goes to divorce I will haul you into court and have you testify as to your exact role in the breakdown of our marriage."
The message you give him should sound something like this:
[video:youtube]c0ndsXVaPwc[/video]

I would find this guy's wife and family and anyone important in his life (including spiritual leaders and spiritual followers) and let them know what he is doing with your wife. He will likely slither away like the insect that he is.

Instead of assuming there is not an affair, you should verify that there is not an affair. You should become so close to your wife that she could not possibly have an affair without your knowledge. You should be monitoring her communications and not letting her go on trips without you - you should be right there getting the information. Hire a private eye if she tries to hide anything from you.

Get the TRUTH. If you want to take a spiritual journey, build it on TRUTH.

Take the TRUTH about what is happening to everybody that is important in your wife's life and the spiritual predator's life.

Trust will be something that you feel when two things happen:
* she acts trustworthily
* your investigations prove she is acting trustworthily

Right now neither of those things is happening.

Anything else is not really trust, even if you try to call it that. I call it whistling in the dark or self-deception.

This is most likely because she began an affair with him during the retreat and was eaten up with guilt and conflicting emotions.

It's a good sign that your marriage can be recovered if you ACT and don't bury your head in the sand.

How badly do you want to stay married to her? If you are not willing to start looking into the truth yourself instead of telling yourself what to believe, I would just file for divorce and take her out of your life, because she will be a source of depression to you.

bac, watch the movie Temptation: Confessions of a Marriage Counselor by Tyler Perry. You will see exactly why your wife was barely functional after she came back from the retreat.

Your wife is on a journey into spiritual darkness. A spiritually positive journey would not destroy a marriage.

bac, read through this first article from Dr. Harley on Conflicts of Faith in marriage, and see if it doesn't ring any bells:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5039_qa.html

**EDIT**

moderators note: please familiarize yourself with Marriage Builders material before posting advice to others. Any questions, shoot me an email.

Missy80 - what does the above mean? What is spiritual agreement? Dr. Harley discusses the Policy of Joint Agreement, but I've never heard of spiritual agreement.

And our goal in marriage is not to avoid conflict; rather, we negotiate our conflicts. Conflicts, or differences of opinions, are inevitable. The Harleys say they have conflicts at least once every hour. But they negotiate. That's what's advocated in MB.

Missy - please start a thread of your own and tell us your story. It's a violation of the social norms around here to just sign up and dispense advice off the bat.

I thought i would get some advice on the letter i have written. I plan to have this as a conversation with my wife and also give it to her as a letter.
Markos, that article is bang on - the transformation stuff.
thoughts would be appreciated on if my letter aligns with marriagebuilders principles.

To my love,

I understand your need to be alone. I understand that you have had a deep transformational experience and that this has been hugely difficult for you. I agree. We should separate from our marriage.
You have been dealing with this idea for 6 weeks whereas I have had only 4 days to process this seperation that you are certain about. I ask for the time and understanding to experience the full impact of the emotions I have. I ask for wisdom of understanding if I am angry or speak without thought. I love you and I do not wish to be in conflict. Please understand that this is the most emotionally painful experience of my life. I wish to have the space to be mindful of my thoughts feelings and actions so that I can hold a space for your feelings, experience and emotions. I feel that this will enable us to work through positively this together.
This doesn�t matter now as we are where we are. I feel I should say it. Last year was heavy. I get that. I was very unwell. Depression and panic attacks caused by giardia, losing job, us moving to here, coping with that. I think we lost track of nurturing ourselves and our relationship and just worked on our life. I respect your strength and am thankful that you supported us emotionally and financially last year. I am deeply pained that we did not see this hidden undercurrent sooner so that we might have explored alternative options.

Right now you mention you just want to be alone. You want solitude. I understand, I am open to this. Yet it is not what I see. I see you spending time alone, in solitude, in the park, meditating. Then you retreat into the emotional support of INSERTNAME. I observe this in you constantly checking your phone to see if he has contacted, the countless hours on the phone or in chat to him, the 2:30 am emails, the constant and long writing to him. The sending him a cd and your reluctance to tell me. I ask that you sit with this observation. I see your emotional retreat from our marriage to INSERTNAME in securing your laptop and your phone with passwords. You have emotionally disconnected from our love and our relationship. The lack of trust you have suddenly developed has been one of the most painful things I have ever experienced. Your inability and more so your lack of attempts to try and explain this experience has been particularly hurtful. You say you can�t explain yet you are able to send INSERTNAME emails explaining what is happening. I feel you are having an emotional affair with INSERTNAME. I do not believe it to be malicious. I believe it is with good intent to process and understand your experience however I still feel it to be an emotional affair. I feel the boundary-less relationship you have with INSERTNAME has been a catalyst to the destruction of our marriage. It has meant that you have emotionally checked out from any honest and open communications about your feelings and experiences with me. As such you are retreating further and further into INSERTNAMEs emotional support and this emotional disconnect also means you no longer feel intimate with me. I feel pain and tension and my body recoils when I think about your emotional relationship with INSERTNAME and your emotional checking out from our relationship. It feels dangerous to not only our relationship but to you as an individual who want to be alone to explore the dhamma. I feel you are creating a dependent teacher student relationship much like that of traditional monastic monks/nuns. I don�t feel you can explore the dhamma or your deep intuitive insight with this level of attachment to INSERTNAME.
The pull of the Dhamma has grabbed you. That is fantastic and I support you fully in your exploration of this. I understand your need for support from people who have had this experience and understand it.
I would ask, as someone who loves you with all their heart, and if you love me as you say that look to other teachers from the same lineage with the right experience to guide you in your dhamma and insight experience. The truth of the dhamma and the deep insight it brings is available from other teachers as readily as INSERTNAME. INSERTNAME mentioned to me that he felt he couldn�t be a teacher to me because the nuances of face to face contact were lost via email. If this is the case then he should be offering the same advice to you. I would ask you to explore the Buddhist library and other teachers that you can have a face to face relationship with. You�re intimate emotional relationship with INSERTNAME is incredibly painful for me.

I also struggle with your talk about how you have completely changed and that all previous you was swept away. I see you interacting with friends, listening to music, watching tv shows, drinking wine and dancing as before. I see you act in the same and loving maternal way towards Mango. The only difference I feel has happened is a complete disconnect from our relationship. I feel incredible heaviness and pain in my chest over this contradiction.
I respect your experience and am trying incredibly hard to understand the feeling of it in a non-conceptual way. I would like to meet your needs to practice by offering some solutions to our financial situation.

1. Mum and dad buy you out of the mortgage and support me financially for the rest of the year. This enables you to do the deep practice you need. I ask that you find a 1-1 teacher that is not INSERTNAME for this.
2. Mum and dad pay half the mortgage and bills and support me financially. This takes the pressure and removes the stress of finance of being in Sydney. This would also allow us to make time to be with each other and for you to remain in Sydney without the stress or need for a fulltime job.
I would like to build honest and open communication with you. I feel we have lost this and it is something of ours I value greatly.
I would like a joint agreement of how this seperation works and I would like the things in it to be items we are both enthusiastic about. I feel by coming up with items that we are both enthusiastic about we can meet both our emotional needs.
I am enthusiastic see a relationship counsellor that we both connect with and one who has a spiritual understanding or background. I approach this openly and honestly.
I do not feel we should see or sleep with other people as this would be particularly painful for me and devastating to my mental health.
I feel that we should be intimate if the feelings arises and ask that we explore that part of our relationship together, openly, if it comes up.
I would like to keep wearing our wedding rings as a symbol of our love and a tool to help ground you in your experience. Similar to the grounding effect Mango has.
I will use this seperation to nurture myself as I feel that necessary and important and something I have neglected to do. I ask that you do the same and that we also make the space and time to nurture our relationship. I am enthusiastic to explore where our relationship leads from here.

I love you.

Separations of any kind are not going to nurture anything other than a desire for divorce. I'd you want to save your marriage, condense that into a two paragraph letter that essentially says, "I suspect you're engaged in Ann inappropriate relationship with Guru Dingleberry. I do not want to give up on our marriage and will fight this affair with every breath I have."

Bac, you put a lot of thought into that, and I'm sure it has some relief of allowing you to express your thoughts. However, I'm going to strongly suggest you don't use it.

Here's why:

She isn't going to care. She doesn't really care that she is hurting you (if she did, she wouldn't do this), you can't educate her when she's high on the delusion of being with another man, and she is so inherently selfish right now that you could be hit by a bus and she wouldn't notice.

Did you read this?
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5039_qa.html

"So she did what she had to do, she withdrew from you, and found others that would meet her emotional needs. These people who met her needs happened to believe in new age philosophy, but it could have been almost anything. One of them, the man you refer to in your letter, probably did more than the rest to meet her emotional needs, so it's likely that she has fallen in love with him. As a result of her relationship with those who met her needs, she has adopted their system of beliefs.

As long as her emotional needs are being met by these friends, it will be impossible for you to dissuade her of her beliefs. Notice how she tells you that it "feels right." What feels right is that her emotional needs that had not been met by you are now being met by her friends -- by her male friend in particular. Who can argue with that?

You won't be able to meet her needs at first, while she is in withdrawal. First, you must prove to her that you are a safe and pleasant person to be around. Then she will slowly come out of her defensive shell and give you opportunities to re-connect with her. "

Most of all - separation - will be the kiss of death to your marriage. I think Dr. Harley would advise you that he has never found a wife who fell back in love by being AWAY from her husband. That is leaving the door open for this new man to seal the deal.

That plan you outlined in your letter will only make sure you don't win her back. You need to let her know that you will do what it takes to work on a marriage that's a "spiritual experience" itself, so to speak. Ask her if you don't already know what she needs in your marriage. It looks to me as though you don't have a job and she's been supporting you financially and now you're turning to your parents to support you. Is that the way it is? If so, let her know you are going to look for a job and find a way to provide financial support.

Don't tell her you feel she's having an emotional affair, tell her it bothers you that she's spending so much time with another man. Meanwhile, get your evidence that this is an affair, for that is what it is. Dr. Harley talks about undivided attention time which allows a marriage to grow. It also allows an affair to develop. As you can see, she's spending a lot of UA time with other man. It's an affair and you need to do your part to kill the affair before you'll even have a chance to win back your wife's affections.

Look at MelodyLane's sig link on killing affairs.
Here: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2566583#Post2566583

Not a good idea to send that letter. First off, it is way too long. If you want to be understood, then brevity is the answer. More words is visual pollution, especially to a person who is emotionally detached. And the purpose of the letter: separation and accusing her of an emotional affair with no evidence are destructive tactics.

Why not put aside your own ideas and listen to the people here?

Please answer. If you don't stop talking and start listening, your M isn't going to make it.

You've been told what to do. Plan A and start snooping

I am going to add to it that it is way too long. She is never going to read it. Your effort will be wasted.

You'll need to get her attention with more than just words. You'll need action. Integrate yourself into her life and meet emotional needs, and stand up for your marriage (find out the truth, as I described, and confront the problem: the relationship with this other man).

Please pay very close attention to this.

You do not need to prove to her that she is having an emotional affair. Instead you need to get busy taking action about the affair. Don't have a debate with her.


Please follow up on our suggestions. We have seen variants of your scenario before.

Did you read the links I posted?

bac, one impression I'm getting is that you have not been providing very much financial support for your wife. This is an important emotional need for a typical woman. I encourage you to pursue a plan to upgrade your career or start a new one. (As long as you do not do it at the expense of your marriage.) This is probably important!

Hi guys.

a couple of things i should have cleared up.
1. I havent put any spy resources in place. my observations are in the above letter. there is no more to it that what i have listed as the guy doesnt live here. he lives overseas. He will be here in two weeks to run a retreat she is now going on.
2. I was planning on having this letter as a conversation.
3. the reason she has been financially supporting us is that we made the decision for me to study so that I can more stably financially support us when we start a family. we both had great jobs before we moved.
4. someone mentioned not calling it an affair? Doesnt Dr Harley suggest to call it for what it is in the infidelity info?
5. seperation at this moment looks like staying in the same apartment until she finds a job working somewhere else.
6. markos I did have a read.


Ok, you all have really valid points.
How do I make our marriage a safe space if she has withdrawn and just wants to go? she doesnt want to do anything together. wants to spend all her time meditating and communicating with this guru

Please follow our advice and get spy resources in place asap.



Ho0pefully you will abandon that idea.


I wouldn't call it anything right now because you don't want to tip off your wife you are snooping.


Living together is not a "separation." I would avoid any "separation" schemes or games.

Please follow the advice. We can't help you if you don't follow the advice. First off, get some good spy resources in place asap and then we can help you run this dirtbag off.

I didn't say don't call it an affair, I said don't tell her you feel like she's having an affair. She can debate you about how it's just your feelings. Get the evidence together (a lot of which you already have: tremendous amount of UA time between her and Buddha guy in the form of phone logs and texts). Get cracking on stopping her affair. Go on the retreat, too.

How far along in your studies are you? Did she enthusiastically agree for you to quit the job you had so you could do these studies?

Follow the suggestions that are being given to you. Gather evidence and get the TRUTH. That is the first thing you need to do.

Meanwhile, don't confront her about the relationship. That will definitely make it "unsafe" for her. Just reaffirm your commitment to her and the spiritual value of your marriage, and tell her you aren't comfortable with her pursuing retreats and activities away from you. Meanwhile, keep gathering evidence.

And get ready to confront the spiritual misleader.

Your reasons for not snooping are not valid.

Are you ready to listen?

BTW, it should be mentioned that you are fitting the mold of a spouse in denial to the T. Rather than take our advice, this type of poster, who is in denial that there is an affair, wants to "talk" their WS out of it.

That is a disaster. All you will do is cause her to take the relationship further underground and she's not going to listen to you anyway.

You MUST quietly snoop. I don't know how much more clear we can make it, it has been posted seven ways from Sunday and you are still not getting it.

I really hope we can get thru to you. You are about to make a pretty critical mistake...

Hi thank you for your frankness. It is helpful although hard to bear.

I suppose my question is really, what good does the snooping do? I know she has retreated emotionally to this guy I know she is in constant contact I know she spent $200 on calls

She is emotionally withdrawn from our marriage and relying on him for all emotional support .

What more do I need to find out?
This is a problem. I know this already. I need to identify her emotional needs and Crete a safe space for her to share them with me before we can even talk about marriage continuing we new to build this trust

I do agree that the letter needs to be shortened and re worded to speak to her taker and address her withdrawal

Snooping will provide you with the evidence of the nature of the relationship. We will then use that evidence to run this turd off.


Throw the letter away and follow the advice please. Your plan is the equivalent of trying to reason with a falling down drunk. You must FIRST separate him from his booze so he will be sober enough to want to change.


No, you do not know. You have no idea what you are doing. You cannot meet the needs of someone whose love bank is closed. HER LOVE BANK IS CLOSED TO YOU.

Please put aside your own foggy ideas and listen to us. Snoop on her and find out what they are talking about. Come back here with the evidence.

Throw the letter away.

Anything over 3 words is a waste of time and a distraction from saving your marriage. Did you notice that NONE OF US [all experienced posters] told you to write her a novel? No, Sir, we did not. WE TOLD YOU TO SNOOP!

Please read.
Conflict Avoidance is the Kiss of Death

ok so i didn't send the letter. I had a conversation because our dog and I are flying back to my family for the week so that I can 'put the floor back in to myself' so to speak.

I have had a conversation with her. a safe one. we established rules about if it started to feel unsafe and agreed to be radically honest.
She would not agree to make decisions from a safe place. as 'her decisions that are right for her may feel unsafe for me'. she would create a safe place to talk.


You are all right. the letter I wrote is pointless. She is firm in her conviction that the marriage must end and that we were never connected on the deep level she now operates form. If there is a wall then i'm the one that built it. because she is open.
She wants to go to counselling to help me through this but she wants a divorce once the 12 months officialness is up.

I queried about the teacher relationship. she says she has been reaching out to her closest friends and family also and that she has a deep friendship with this person.
I know what your response will be im just not sure i can do it. She said that i should reach out to any of her family and friends I like.
relationships are built on trust arent they? how can I do that if i violate the trust?
Feeling hopeless.

What are you, Ben Stiller writing a script for a new "Romantic Comedy?"

Are you going to have Mike Meyers play "The Love Guru" again?


Your. Wife. Is. Having. An. Affair. With. This. Hippy. Dippy. Nutjob. Con. Man.


Do me a favor. Unzip your trousers, and reach down the front.

Feel anything there? Two small round objects?

Yes?


1) This viper needs to be reported to authorities for the retreat or whatever he works for.

2)You need to call him up and tell him to stay the hell away from your wife.

3) You need to expose your wife's AFFAIR to all friends and family.



If you fail to do this, you are surrendering your marriage to a smelly hippy spiritual dirtbag conman.


Seriously dude, man the hell up.

This for the win. I'm just floored you're buying into this line of bull she's feeding you and that you're letting this loser steal your wife. He's going to take her, bleed you both dry and throw her away. Are you seriously going to sit there and watch it happen?

Intimate relationships are built on care and time, not trust. Trust comes from consistent, reliable building with care and time. If you don't want to do what it takes to win her affections, then that's your choice. You either do all you can without anger to stop this affair to give yourself a chance or you let the wind take you like Jellyhead and watch her leave your life.

I ask again, did she really like you quitting your job so you could go back to school?

No, relationships are not built on fake trust. You don't trust her and empty, false platitudes will not save your marriage. Please put down the bumper stickers and start snooping if you are serious about saving your marriage. You are wasting valuable time.

So basically, you had a conversation with her, and she's going to do whatever she wants anyway. And now you've tipped her off that you suspect something.

If you want to actually save this, you're going to have to quit going off on your own ideas (which are not working) and listen to the advice of those who have been there before and who have helped hundreds of couples who have been where you are.

Do you want to save your marriage enough to slow down and start following the plan the works?

This is how every single person in the world feels when they are having an affair. We have seen hundreds of them.

You need to get the book Surviving an Affair and read through it ASAP. You can buy the ebook version and have it to read immediately.

I wil get the book and start reading.

Yes she was keen for me to stop work and study because it is aimed at being stable when we have kids. Which was supposed to be this year.

Yup, which we told you would happen.

Do you want help getting snooping in place or not? This is a serious question. yes or no?

...


Did you order "the book?"


Nearly every poster that has been posting to you has experience with the concepts of this program contained in the books, and have been advising you based on those concepts.


So, are we ready to start ACTING?


Or... did you disappear?

You are getting terrific advice here. If you want to save your marriage you have to act with determination and conviction. Get out of nice guy mode and get into your armor because this is war. Fight or lose.

Read SAA quickly and get into a firm Plan A.

Also, read everything here:
http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2695379#Post2695379

1. Gather your evidence.
2. Expose the affair. Your wife said to talk her family. Once you get your proof then indeed you should. You will expose this affair to them and to everyone associated with this phony Buddhist guru.
3. I would not let her live with you for 12 months if she continues the affair. She has to agree to end contact for life with him or leave.

One more thing, bac. You don't strike me as a militant kind of guy. I'm not either, but I learned to be when I was in your position. Like you, my wife entered her affair and there was a deep spiritual "awakening" that came with it. If I ever see another copy of "Eat, Pray, and Love" I think I'll wretch. Anyway, I became militant in my approach to combating the affair and fighting for my marriage. The Marriage Builder's tactics worked and I was able to recover my marriage and my family. It takes time, but it works.

By militant, I do not mean being harsh, overly aggressive, or bullish. Rather, you need to be assertive in your approach to fighting the war that you are in.

You cannot afford to waste time vacillating. The betrayed spouses who post here and have the most success are the ones who read Dr. Harley's works and apply the concepts without waffling. They also follow the advice of the people who post here and know inside and out the anatomy of an affair.

Bac,
What is happening?