Not sure, if anything anyone can help me with but I am about done!!
Been married 28 years. I love my wife dearly BUT very frustrated! My wife has always been a very cold, non-touching, non-affectionate, non-romantic woman. However she is a wonderful mother to our children and a wonderful wife when it comes to the houshold. I give her an A+ in those two catagories. As far as a warm, affectionate, romantic woman? D- to an F. I guess this is why I have stayed married to her, two out of three is pretty good.

Her coldness has always been a problem but I have learned (forced myself) over the years to try to accept her for who she is, especially since thats what she always tells me to do. Thats all and good however there are times I cannot overcome the natural urge to simple want touched, some romance or affection, especially since that is my love language (physical touch). It is EXTREMELY difficult to always have your "love tank" bouncing on EMPTY and nowhere to turn to get a fill up.

We have read all the books on love languages, marriage builders emotional needs ect... with no avail. We have also talked about this issue so many times over the years I cant even count them. I know her needs, words of affirmation and acts of service and I work very hard attempting to keep her tank full!

We are recently "empty nesters", kids are gone to college. I honestly thought (hoped) things might start to get better now that we have more one to one time together....I was wrong and VERY disaapointed. It seems like things are actually worse. I dont know what to do any more. We are both Christians and love the Lord with all hearts. I have prayed about this for soooooo many years that I am to the point I have given up on any answer to prayer for this. I just now pray for strength to overcome the frustration I live with every day. I dont want to even consider leaving but I do sometimes think it would be far better being alone than frustrateed every day of my life??

Anyone have any advice other than read more books, talk to each other or seek counselling?? We have done it all and that doesnt work!

Welcome to MB.

What about the online program, where you will be assigned a coach?

Or emailing Dr. Harley?

NotTouched Welcome to MB and I'm sorry to hear that you are having such a hard time.

It sounds like you guys have trying a lot of things. Have you considered Dr H Plan A and Plan B .

You may want to consider an online course that includes coaching if you haven't already.

How much time alone together do you get each week? Doing what?

Hi NotTouched

I'm sorry you're living with so much frustration. I am in a similar situation and feel your pain. I am currently considering Plan A and B because I have found my hill to die on. Its not something I want to do, but can't stand continuing to live with status quo. I don't know if you have reached your hill to die on, but I think you have to ask yourself a hard question I recently asked myself...which is worse, status quo or living without your spouse?

My situation is different in that my husband's job keeps him gone most of the time. So I'm pretty much already living without him. For me the tough decision is whether or not I want to risk losing the very thin connection we do still have.

This probably doesn't help you much but I wanted you to know others can relate to the frustration you feel.

NT,

My guess is that your wife is not in love with you. When a woman feels in love with a man, her emotions usually prompt her to want to meet his emotional needs, and to be physical with him.

According to Dr. Harley, in order to be in love a couple needs to be spending 15 enjoyable hours a week together. It's called the Policy of Undivided Attention. The first thing to do would be to start doing this with her, and after a few weeks see if things are any better.

The Critical Importance of Undivided Attention

Reading marriage books with her will not do near as much as taking her out on 4 4 hour dates each week!

Welcome to MB. You have found a pretty good place to get some pretty good answers.

Has your wife ever said "I love you but not in love with you"

Has there ever been any (emotional or physical) affairs of sorts between either of you?

Are there any structural issues like debt, health, that could cause an impact on this.

What's your wife complain about the most?

Are there any critical moments of neglect between you two?

When did the intimacy between you two go down hill?

What was it like when intimacy was good between you two? (Basicly a bit about the good times together)

I am sure that if you answer those questions it will create a picture for everyone to help giving good advice and get the ball rolling in the direction it needs to go.

MNG

Thanks Tamak, You were a big help. It really helps just knowing Im not the only one out here dying on the vine. To answer your question...Yes, I have reached my hill to die on. Posting here is my last stance for help. I hear what your saying about the tough decision. The way I look at it, Im far better alone and frustrated than with someone I desire so much but cant have.

Been there..done that... doesn't help

No, she has never said I lv e you but not in love

No affairs that I am aware of.

Not any structural issues. We have a pretty good life, good money, no health issues or anything else I can think of.

About the only thing she complains about is that she wishes she could be a better wife to me.

Not sure what you mean about critical moments of neglect. I try to meet all her needs. I work very hard at that. That's one thing I don't feel or see her doing.

Intimacy has always been a problem. When first married I always thought she would warm up some day. 32 years together and Im still waiting.

When we do have sex, I have absolutely no complaints. Its really not the sex Im have an issue with. Its just the frigid coldness in between which can be weeks.

We are together quite a bit during the week. Approx 20 -25 hours or more a week.

Doing what?

I would start working out. If you don't already.

Also.. Be outcome independant (don't show disappointment even if you are) if somethings not going as you want it to.

When you go on a date (which should be often) come home from work and tell her (you should know your wife well by now and what she likes) to get ready.. Your taking her out. (Don't tell her.. Just make sure its someplace you know she likes). If you go out for dinner.. Sit next to her and not across from her (easier to cuddle.. And stroke her leg).

Start framing yourself as the best.. And be funny and amusing in your conversations. Look for situational humor. If your selfesteem is low she will feel unattracted to you (working out will help this). She likely "can't put a finger on why" or tell you but she feels it since women are emotional creatures. Keep topics going on things she can feel or remember feeling that she associates as positive.

**EDIT**

If she denies you affection (possibly does if to her it always leads to sex) be cool about it.. Don't let it bother you. Smile and carry on like nothing happened.

Also.. Don't wait or hope for affection. Just go for it. She's your wife. Be the man. If she complains when you touch her (say a gentle drive by with a playful smack on the butt). Look at her with a smile and eyes that's ripping her cloths off and say something amusing and in a fun tone like "what?, don't ya want a piece of this awesomeness" flex your arm and walk away.

It will take time but she should warm up.. Especially if your working out and feeling good about yourself.

MNG

NoTouching

You are most definitely not alone on that vine. You said you tried the online program and emailing Dr. Harley and it didn't help. Have you considered a phone counseling session?

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Who was your MB coach? What does Dr Harley say about your situation?

Also .. Critical moments are things that have set her off. Like being unsensitive when the family pet dies.. Or failing to protect her somehow that might cause her to lose respect and see you as less of a man. Or bad things said in fights etc that she never forgets. Basicly anything that she may precieve as a critical moment and was really mad at you for because you didn't handle it properly in her opinion.

MNG

That is not what we mean by undivided attention time. just being together accomplishes nothing. We want to know how many hoours you are out on actual DATES meeting the top 4 intimate emotional needs of affection, conversation, sexual fulfillment and recreational companionship. I woild guess next to none since your main complaint is that she doesn't meet your needs.

The above is the big MISS in your marriage. She is not in love with you beuacs you are not spending time together meeting each others needs.

Well ML from what OP says.. He tries hard to meet her needs but she is reluctant to meet his.

Possibly his wife has a contrast effect of sorts if his efforts are not producing results.

MNG

He is not meeting her needs. That is the problem. If he were meeting her needs and doing it correctly, she would be in love with him. She is not in love.

I agree. It sounds like they spend time together, but since the word date hasn't even been mentioned yet it sounds like no needs of hers are met during this time together.

So time together which accomplishes nothing and I'd guess they've tried traditional marriage counselling which as we know accomplishes nothing too.

She is probably not helping matters because she isn't asking for any needs. She expects it to happen internally by magic which is why she wishes she were a better wife.

This program, which puts the focus on finding out what her needs are will help a lot.

I'd guess she is also having sex because she feels she should, not because she really wants to. Which as we know is dangerous while her needs aren't being met. This just makes her feel worse.

I have to disagree. I am meeting her needs, or at least the needs I think she needs based on what her love language is and what the emotional needs questionaire indicated. Now, maybe you have a point that I may not be meeting then correctly. I need to think about that.

When a woman is not in love she tends to prioritise the non intimate needs.

Hi NotTouched.

I'm in a very similar situation and have been working the program here for awhile now. I know you're coming from a couple of different programs because I am recognizing the different terminology. I even know where MrNiceGuy is coming from. I recognize that approach as well.

But this is the Marriage Builders program, so let's talk in terms of that approach as it is designed to be a complete program all by itself.

How long ago did you two sit down and fill out the emotional needs questionnaire? Have you also done a love busters questionnaire?

Can you list your W's top five needs here in order?

Can you give examples of things you do every day to meet those needs?

How often are you getting out of the house together on dates where it is just the two of you? For how long? What are you doing during those dates?

Just touch on some of things you mention here:
I have learned years ago to not sulk or try not to show any emotion when Im frustrated. I think that is why we are still married for 28 years now. Not to blow my own horn but I think I have done a WONDERFUL job just taking the blows of this frustration over the years.

Im a ver romantic guy, over the years I have always done things for her, come home with flowers, surprise her with "surprise dates", taking her out in a limo on dates...I could go on and on.

I like your suggestion of not doing everything she ask. I just started doing some of this more. She gets very upset because she has been so used to that. But I am to a point now, I dont care if it makes her made..."join the frustration". I know that sounds vindictive but I dont care at this point. Im tired!!

I have always told her this issue isnt about sex. Its about simple affection, thats all I want. It doesnt matter to me if that affection leads to sex or not. If it does, GREAT but if it doesnt then thats GREAT too, its not about sex..just some affection.

She has told me before to "just go get" the affection from her if I need it. That sounds good but what good is affection if I have to force it or just take it. Thats not what Im after. For years I struggled with why God gave us free choice however he wants sooo dearly for us to seek, love and follow him. Now I fully understand. He doesnt want to force us to desire him, love him and seek him. He want to "feel" the love from us. I want to "feel" the love from her. Hope that makes sense.

I am always touching, flirting, texting, ect... her. I have always hoped that leading by example she would see the light.
NOT!

hmmm...interesting
Wow! It really hurts to think shes probably not in love with me. I guess I never really considered that or at least wanted to consider that.

NotTouched

It sounds like you have been working really hard for 28 years and I totally get that. You and a lot alike in that way. The thing had to and still have to get is if it's not working I'm not doing something right. So even though you may feel like you we are talking your wife's side we are not. She isn't here, only you are and I'm sure that frustrates you too. We want you to stop surviving in an unhappy marriage and create a loving one.

It sounds to me that you feel like you are alway sacrificing and as you are noticing that only make you more angry over time. So answer all of our questions so we can help you come up with a plan that moves you into a loving marriage.

Obviously what you have been doing for the last 28 years is not working and it would be insanity to continue doing it and expect different results. Let us help you.

Can you answer these?

Could you please answer these?

If you were meeting her needs, she would be in love. We can tell she is not. When you are meeting your spouses needs in a meaningful way, they feel passionate love towards you.

What do you believe her emotional needs are?

NT, I believe you when you say you have been working hard, but you have not been working smart. You have been playing pool with blinders on, hoping for the best. There really is an exact science to all this. It takes spending 20-25 hours of undivided attention time with her meeting the INTIMATE emotional needs in a way that makes her happy. It takes eliminating sacrifice and lovebusters.

You menti0oned you have been through the Marriage Builders course. My H and I went through it in 2007. Who is your coach? And have you brought your issues up to Dr Harley?

It's obvious she's not. You would notice if she were!

Usually when needs are not being well met, the woman falls out of love first. Now you are following her in the path out of love, because you don't like her unloving demeanor.

She probably feels guilty about it, and wishes she loved you passionately, but she can't just make it so.

Sacrifice might be responsible for it. Doing whatever a woman asks does not make her happy. She can tell you don't really want to. What does work is to carry on negotiating until you find something you can do for her that makes you happy too.

The other thing that could be responsible for it is time. Men do OK without lots of UA time. That's because their needs can be met pretty briefly, in the home around lots of distractions. Usually women need dates that have been thoughtfully planned for them, have lots of interesting conversation, fun recreation and affection. Affection is not just a physical element, either. Some women adore non physical affection such as notes, and just remembering what she likes.

If you ask her does she want this she will probably say no because she does not feel that way right now. She probably values non intimacy more.

The way to do it is to think back to your courtship days. What did you do for her that won her? Did you spend more time on dates then?

You can see that the practice of going out of your way to "not do everything she asks" has bad results. You can see that it upsets her. Why, then, would you like the suggestion?

The fact that you do not care about being vindictive is telling. In a good marriage, we avoid being the source of our spouse's unhappiness. We don't take a don't-care attitude, or even become vindictive.

You are trying to get a better marriage, so why would you do anything that you know upsets her? Just exactly how is being "no more Mr Nice Guy" helping your wife to fall in love with you?

Intentionally, randomly picking things that she asks and not doing them is a terrible idea and will only piss her off. If there's something she is asking you to do that you are not enthusiastic about, by all means don't do it. But look for things that you CAN do to show care for her!

***EDIT***

I agree markos.. It can't be randomly picking things. It has to be things you genuonly don't want to do in the moment. There is a fine line in this between vindicive and self respect. Find it.

A reminder to posters to advise using Marriage Builders concepts, or refrain from posting.

Notouch.

***EDIT***

MB has good advice.. I know I lived it and still do but often its hard to articulate apropriately because of how mechanical it is all written.

Work out... Find positive energy in yourself while following the principlas here and project that positive fun energy to your wife and don't let her take it away. Try to figure out a way to follow the advice here without it being so mechanical in nature.

MNG

My wife has always been a very cold, non-touching, non-affectionate, non-romantic woman. However she is a wonderful mother to our children and a wonderful wife when it comes to the household. I give her an A+ in those two categories. As far as a warm, affectionate, romantic woman? D- to an F. I guess this is why I have stayed married to her, two out of three is pretty good.

Hi! Welcome to MB. I am sorry you are in so much pain, so I am going to throw out some suggestions.

In the world of Dr. Harley- maybe a better approach would be to tell your wife using positive reinforcement what things specifically she could do to show you "affection" and "romance". For me, I don't know what those words means to you.
Dr Harley has couples write down specifically what they would like, ask their partner what would help make this happen and then practice/try it out for a month.

For instance:
1. When we wake in the morning, I would like you to roll over, smile at me and then hold me for 5 minutes while stroking my back and arms.
2. Before we get up I would like you to look me in the eyes and say good morning, I love you.
3. I would like to have breakfast with you where we talk some about our upcoming day while we hold hands and or or rub my arms.
4. Before I leave for work, I would like you to hug me, kiss me and look me in the eye and smile telling me Have a good day and I love you.
5. During the day I would like to receive 3 text messages just saying you are thinking about me or something interesting you are doing.
6. When I call you for lunch, I would like for you to take 5-10 minutes to talk to me and tell me you can't wait to hold me again when I get home.
7. When I get home, I want you to come over, smile at me and give me a 3 minute hug followed by a kiss. I would like you to tell me that you are happy to see me and that you love me.
8. During dinner I would like you to wink at me once and give me a smile. I would also like it if you would rub my leg.
(And so on)

Perhaps she just doesn't know how to do Exactly what you need. Write it down! It will NOT feel natural or normal for either of you for usually about 3 weeks, but then suddenly it does-you have created a new habit that
A. Makes you feel like you are receiving the affection you need (this is different for everyone)
B. She can feel like she is finally being a better wife to you as she has something concrete to work on.

I would at least stop calling her cold or frigid. It is Disrespectful. Do you know what her definition of romance is?

Anyhow, hope that might help as a starting point.

NT, does this sound like you?




You say you've stopped making her happy which suggests you were not crazy about the deeds required in the first place. The may explain the current state of the marraige.

When a man acts unenthusiastically, not doing things joyfully but because he feels he should, he makes his wife feel insecure, anticipating problems, and her love starts to drain off. Then he gets frustrated and stops doing anything.

Dr Harley says this situation can be fixed with PoJA. Here:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8122_wife.html

Elaina, great list!!

Follow the MB program. Eliminate Love Busters. Implement POJA so that you only do things when both of you are enthusiastic.

My suggestion for first thing to POJA? You getting a dog. The dog will provide the Affection you are missing while you work on improving your marriage to the point where your wife is enthusiastic about meeting your need herself. Good luck.

I don't understand how a dog will meet his needs in his marriage? The entire purpose of meeting needs is to create romantic love, not to meet some basic need like air or water. He is not attempting to create a romantic relationship with a dog.

However, if he uses a dog to meet an emotional need he might end up creating one.

I thought that was only sheep??

Apparently it can be anything. There are people who claim to have married the Eiffel Tower, in Paris. They claim to be romantically involved with the Eiffel Tower itself.

Did you ever see The Simpsons Movie? Homer became awfully fond of his pig...

The Eiffel Tower can meet your need for conversation. It has been known to be riveting.

Minus the romantic part, is she non-touching/non-affectionate with the children and others?

Horses!!! Especially if they look like Sarah Jessica Parker lol

http://news.yahoo.com/bestiality-crimes-america-233736760.html

I don't think I would say his wife doesn't love him. I have a friend who loves her husband dearly, she just isn't affectionate - period.

I have sympathy for your problem. I am in the same boat. It is hard for sensitive people to live with dominants because our emotions get trampled easily. Will your wife let you cuddle when you go to bed? Maybe give her a backup to set a mood? The tough part is when you do everything you can think of and no result comes of it.

I wish I had advice for you that would work.

lh2, don't worry - we do have advice for him here that will work. According to Dr. Harley, in almost any marriage if a husband will commit to meeting his wife's emotional needs, protecting her from the worst in himself (demands, disrespect, and anger), abstaining from independent behavior, etc., he will eventually be irreplaceable to her - his account in her love bank will be so full that her emotions will help motivate her to want to meet his emotional needs.

It's unfortunately not so cut and dry when the problem is a woman whose husband is not on board. Sometimes those situations have to go to a separation before a husband will finally start giving his wife the care and protection she needs. But for this kind of case, where the husband is on board with the program and the wife seems reluctant at first, the husband will typically have success if he is persistent over time, according to Dr. Harley. It worked in my experience!