My husband and I have been together for 8 years, married 4 years. We dated for 3 years and then he lost his job as an over-the-road truck driver...he was terminated because he damaged another driver's truck for cutting in front of him at a fuel line. He moved in with me after he lost his job.

He had a difficult time finding work and was on unemployment for 1.5 years with me paying most of the bills. Then he had no income for a year, then he worked part time for a year, and he just started receiving Social Security for a disability involving his heart in September. During all this time, I continued to pay all of the bills, pay for his cigarettes, and almost anything else that he wanted. You should know that this money that I had came from insurance money from when my deceased first husband died, social security that I was receiving for myself and my children, and my work salary.

During this time, I have tried to do everything that my husband said would make him happy to the point of alienating my children and friends. We have had arguments in regards to belittling comments that he has made to me and my children...He is always right and I am always wrong, he calls the kids fat and lazy, he says that they will never amount to anything and will probably wind up on the street. Three of my kids have graduated college and live on their own, my next to youngest will be graduating college this fall, and my youngest son will be starting college in the fall.

I acknowledge and accept that I have been responsible for some of our problems. I have not respected him in the way that he wants to be respected. He wants to have final say when he wants to have final say...unfortunately I don't always know when that is. He gets angry at times if I do not agree with him so sometimes I will just to avoid an argument.

He has not always been like this, he used to be one of the most gentle, romantic, charming men that anybody would want to meet. He changed though and I am not sure if I caused that change or if it was an act. He has said that he used that persona to get women in the past.

I love him so much and do not want to lose him. I am also extremely hurt. I feel like he used me until all of my money was gone and then when he started getting money and is in a position to help me, he is bailing on me. He says that he has been miserable for years because of my kids, but my youngest is leaving for college in three months and spends most of his time in his room now.

He said he cannot continue to live in my home because the kids will always think of that as their dad's house. I suggested selling the house and us getting another house for me and him here in Indiana for the next 4 years. (The reason I suggested staying here for 4 years is that I will be eligible to retire then and my youngest son will be out of college).

We live in Indiana and he is moving to Texas. He says he wants to be close to his family there and that I can come there to live. I want to be with him even in Texas but I am 56 and concerned about job prospects. I would also need to sell my home. He wants to leave in 3 days.

When he started getting his Social Security he started making plans to move out without ever even giving me a clue. He had been looking for a place here in Indiana and the only way I found out was because he went over our cell phone minutes and I received a text alert.

I am so distraught over all of this, he had a stroke 1.5 years ago and open heart surgery last year. He was not allowed to drive or anything for several months following the stroke because of the damage to his brain. He has changed so much. He has made a couple of subtle threats about shooting my two youngest sons...he has since removed his gun from the house. He has become hateful towards me and said that I am keeping him from being independent and that he feels like he lives in a box. He also gave away almost every car part and tool that we had in the garage while I was at work about a month ago (tools that belonged to my deceased husband)to a friend of his. He then became outraged at me when I said I would file a police report if the stuff was not returned. He said he could no longer live with me since I said I would call the police.

I don't know what to do. I feel like I am breaking apart inside. Please help.

You are describing a man who has not suddenly changed and become a hateful person. You are describing a man who has slowly tricked you into believing all of this is relatively normal.

He has talked about killing your sons for heavens sake! What do you need this man for? Unless and untill a professional psychologist or psychiatrist garantees you he is not dangerous you should have nothing to do with him for your sake and for the sake of your family.

Went over his text limit? And he said he was texting looking for apartments?

Have you snooped to confirm it's not another woman?

What do your kids and family think of him?

reheadedlady so sorry to hear that you are going through this, but welcome to Marriage Builders.

This is a good article that may help you understand what is happening and also give you some good insights on where you may want to focus.

His Love Bank account may not be high enough for you to get him back but the concepts in Surviving An Affair may give you a chance. I would learn how to speed read or get it in audible.

From what you a describing it does sound like he is having an affair and if you can verify that, then you have a chance of saving your marriage as long as you still want to after finding that out.

As far as the move in 3 day, I would not move at all because of all the disadvantages to you but also because it is not following The Policy of Joint Agreement. As a ministry leader and the man in my family I can not see how I could follow the Bible an follow The Policy of Joint Agreement.

Please keep communicating with us, even though you haven't read all Marriage Builders information we have and can help as long as you give us the information we need to help.

The Policy of Joint Agreement (POJA) is the cornerstone of Dr. Harley's marital program. It states: Never do anything without enthusiastic agreement between your spouse and yourself.

The exception to the POJA is when health or safety is threatened.

Since your husband has threatened to shoot your sons, I think Dr. Harley would encourage you to separate from him and remain separated until he was safe to be around.

Please read what you wrote and ask yourself if you want to spend the rest of your life with this person...

I have snooped and there is no other woman. He has not called, texted, or made contact with any other woman. He has medical problems that make only oral sex possible. I am a more than willing sex partner but he will only shower once a month. When I ask him to shower, he says that I am making demands on him.

I have 7 children (all over 18 now), some of them hate him and the rest tolerate him for my sake. I need to take responsibility for part of how they feel towards him though. I told them too much of our personal business whenever I was upset about anything. I also tended to side with my kids against him when I thought he was being unfair and too strict.

He did remove his gun from the house at my request after making the threat. We had been going to counseling at my request but we are no longer going. I have also talked to his neurologist in his presence and told her everything that was going on, even the threats. She ordered an EEG, which he did have done but he has not bothered to check on the results. I am in individual counseling. Our marriage counselor and the neurologist suggested to him that he might benefit from counseling himself. He does not believe that he has any problems other than me and the kids. He says that if I would focus on him more and the kids less that we would not be having the problems that we have. He says that I say I will change but then I don't, but he keeps changing what he wants me to do. Example: I was helping put tools away the other evening, he got angry and said that I didn't need to put them all away. In the past, he has gotten angry because I didn't help. Most of the time I am so unsure about what will upset him.

I want to do what I can to make him happier with me. I want him to stay with me. My kids keep telling me that he is taking advantage of me.

rhl, welcome to Marriage Builders. Your kids are right that he is taking advantage of you. He has not contributed to your marriage in any significant way and seems to be along for a free ride. He is just there to GET things until he gets bored. Dr. Harley would call him a freeloader:

Freeloader is unwilling to put much effort into the care of his or her partner in a romantic relationship. He or she does only what comes naturally and expects only what comes naturally. It's like a person who tries to live in a house without paying rent or doing anything to improve it unless the person is in the mood to do so.

Renter is willing to provide limited care as long as it's in his or her best interest. The romantic relationship is considered tentative, so the care is viewed as short-term. It's like a person who rents a house and is willing to stay as long as the conditions seem fair, or until he or she finds something better. The person is willing to pay reasonable rent and keep the house clean but is not willing to make repairs or improvements. It's the landlord's job to keep the place attractive enough for the renter to stay and continue paying rent.

Buyer is willing to demonstrate an extraordinary sense of care by making permanent changes in his or her own behavior and lifestyle to make the romantic relationship mutually fulfilling. Solutions to problems are long-term solutions and must work well for both partners because the romantic relationship is viewed as exclusive and permanent. It's like a person who buys a house for life with a willingness to make repairs that accommodate changing needs, painting the walls, installing new carper, replacing the roof, and even doing some remodeling so that it can be comfortable and useful.

Your children have objectivity. When you gave them honest information, they were appalled. They wouldn't be if you were married to a good man you didn't need to be so secretive about.

If YOU thought he was being unfair and strict, then those are your feelings which must be taken into account. If you don't have a partner who doesn't do this then you don't have a partner.

You've been very seriously gas lighted. Every time he has hurt you you have been made to feel it is your fault for feeling upset. Do read our thread on gas lighting.

I know you have invested a lot in this guy, but don't throw good time and money after bad. You will be very sad for a while, but once the gas lighting wears off you will feel free.

He was a guy who shacked up with you so he could be careless at work and have you pick up the tab. He is just a freeloader who cannot keep up the charm act very long.

By agreeing to this he's seen you as a soft mark.

A poster whose husband was moving away in similar circumstances wrote to Dr H and he said the man was a freeloading walk away husband. He cautioned her not to follow him.

He said: "I would never leave Joyce or make the decision for her about where we live. He is testing to see if you are obedient. If you follow, he will see you as a wife who can be controlled"



He keeps you walking on eggshells to keep you compliant and controlled. You are gas lighted into thinking you need to do better all the time.

You haven't been happily in love for ages have you? You've been unhappily in love with an old mirage of charm.

Do you want to grow old with a bullying man who shows you no care?

My hope is that this man may become the man I fell in love with again. I keep thinking that some of the issues are related to the stroke he had 1.5 years ago. I have always felt that unless there was physical abuse in the home that everything could be worked out and that you don't walk away from a marriage.

I was married to my deceased husband for 26 years, we had a wonderful marriage. Our kids do not remember me and their dad ever arguing...they remember jokes, fun times, etc. We did argue from time to time, just not very often.

Is there anybody that believes this marriage is worth saving besides me?

I believe in saving it as long as he is willing to make a lot of changes. Was your first marriage a happy marriage?

My first marriage was great. We had problems from time to time but we always managed to work through them. We had a 16 year old son who died in a car accident and we came close to splitting up during that time of intense grief but we managed to come together. My husband passed away in 2005 after a two year fight with colon cancer. It was extremely hard on me and the kids.

My kids do not want me to move to Texas. They want me to stay in Indiana. One of my daughters lives in Florida, my other daughter lives in Ohio. Two of my sons live a hundred miles south of me. I also have 2 teenage grandchildren, a 2 year old grandson, and I am expecting another grandson at the end of the month.

I could understand their feelings better if they were here more often but they aren't. I have tried to be supportive of their decisions in where they live and even who they choose to have as their significant other (and I have not always cared for their significant others).

BUT, hope is not a plan, nor can you force someone to change to accommodate your will. Go ask him if he wants to be that man. I suspect he will say no.


RHL, but what makes you think he is willing to change? From what you have told us here, he wants to walk away. Dr Harley describes such marriages as such:


So far, your marriage has not been a place of mutual need meeting, it has been a relationship of extreme giving coupled with extreme taking.


Probably not. There is nothing here to save.

This could work if he makes radical, dramatic changes. Why not go ask him if he will. His answer will tell you if there is any future here with you.

He has said in couples counseling that he misses the way things used to be between us. He has also said that he wants me to go to Texas with him. My thing is that I want to wait until I am able to retire in 3.5 years, I am concerned about trying to find a job in another state at my age. I also want to wait until my youngest son is either graduated from college or at least settled into an apartment.

Melody,

He will ask me what kind of radical changes and I am unsure what to say. Can you help me with that?

1. no more fights
2. attend anger management classes
3. get a job and start paying bills with you
4. never criticize your kids again
5. retrieve all of the tools he gave away
6. take a shower every day and develop basic human cleanliness
7. treat you with love and respect at all times
8. go through the Marriage Builders program with you

Unless he will do those things, there is nothing here to save. Your future will be one of misery and loneliness when your kids are alienated.

And you should not even consider leaving your job and going to Texas with him. You shouldn't sacrifice your financial security at this late age for a crumbling marriage. Don't lose everything. Don't sacrifice your financial security and your kids for a freeloader.

Sometimes even in the midst of my sadness, I remember what a nice person that I am and all that I have accomplished. Do you know that I have raised some great kids and that I was the first person in my family to graduate college. It took me a lot of years to earn that degree, sometimes I had to go part time and even took a few years off when my husband was so sick. I did finally graduate a few years ago...one week before my oldest daughter graduated college. I have a bachelor's degree in business and majored in accounting. I am currently an office manager for a local contractor and he trusts my judgment in lots of financial manners. I also am fantastic at preparing taxes and love doing them. But for all my strengths, I am still very weak when it comes to the love I feel for my husband.

I knew you were a smart woman! We are the same ages so I completely understand. I applaud you for coming here to get an objective view of your situation. That bespeaks a STRONG woman whose mind is telling her that her heart is misleading her.

You are not the first person to have your heart lead you astray and off track! I speak from experience

It's interesting you keep talking about your first marriage.

My suspicion is that your second husband targeted you when you were vulnerable and grieving. Love is a drug and he got you hooked at a weak time.

I do speak of my deceased husband because I feel he is relevant when I am talking about my current marriage. My deceased husband and I had problems too, not as bad as what is going on with my husband now though.

I remember two times that my deceased husband and I were having problems, I made some changes in myself and I also did something a little drastic to help him realize that we were heading for trouble. The first thing that I did was to take his complaints to heart. If he came home from work and complained about clutter on the kitchen counter, then by the time he came out of the bathroom it was gone. I also had my mom come to the house to babysit one weekend, met him at the door with our suitcase packed, and told him we were going to a hotel room for the night to talk. During that night we decided together to make our marriage a priority and to start spending more time together...just me and him. It was not all smooth sailing, but we managed to muddle our way through.

I did meet my current husband at a time when I was grieving. He helped me through it, we talked for hours about everything that was going on in my life and his life. He knows more about me than anybody has ever known about me. He has also said on more than one occasion that I know more about him than he has ever shared with anybody else. He is one of the most intelligent men that I ever met. He is also one of the most sociable creatures that you would ever want to meet. Granted, since his stroke, heart attack, and open heart surgery...he has been suffering from depression and spends a substantial amount of time in the house playing video games or watching TV (the doctor put him on anti-depressants). He said that his health is one of the reasons that he wants to go back to Texas. He said that before he got sick that he felt 10 foot tall and bullet proof and expected to live a long time. Now, he says that he doesn't want to wait the 4 years that I need before going to Texas because he is afraid that he won't be around that long. He wants to spend time with his adult children and his parents. Any brain storming help would be appreciated.

Everybody is vulnerable when it comes to their spouse. This goes to the heart of what intimacy is. Your spouse can be your greatest source of joy in your life, or your greatest source of sorrow. It has nothing to do with any inherent fault in yourself. If you weren't vulnerable in this way, that would be a substantial reason to question the validity of your marriage in the first place.

I forgot to mention my husband's other health issues. He has high blood pressure, diabetes, sleep apnea, and I've already mentioned the depression, stroke, heart attack, and open heart surgery for quadruple bypass. He is being treated by several doctors who feel like he can live a long life if he takes care of himself. They have recommended that he quit smoking (he smokes 2-3 packs of cigarettes a day), that he monitor his carbs (but he loves his candy and juice), and exercise. He said that he cannot quit smoking because of the stress that he is under and feels that once he is Texas that his stress will be greatly reduced. He is such a proud Texan...proud of everything about Texas (it is one of the things that I love about him).

That on top of unemployed and no bathing? If your H isn't even willing to take care of himself, he is unlikely to ever take care of you.

Sorry but I would not move to TX and do as Melody advised.

My husband receives Social Security for his disabilities, he is no longer able to work.

I knew you were grieving because you made a good first choice and raised smart children.

It was obvious to me that he would have exploited your grief because you are not the type who is a fool - you wouldn't have chosen him in happier times.

When a man has little to offer, he has to view women as vultures do - target the weak.

I'm sure he IS very smart and sociable.

These are some of the brain storming ideas I came up with in regards to moving to Texas or alternates:

1)Move to Texas, give up my job, and sell my house. Use the money from my house to purchase another house in Texas and try to find a job. Live on husband's social security until I find a job.

2)Stay in this house which has it's own set of problems until I am able to move to Texas with my husband.

3)Sell this house, purchase another house here in Indiana until I am able to retire and move to Texas with my husband.

With number 2 & 3, my husband could still go to Texas every few months and spend time with his kids and parents until we are able to move there in a few years.

Or:
4)My husband go by himself to Texas and I remain here and we divorce.

Does anybody have any other ideas?

Actually, vultures target the dead. They watch the weak, hoping they will die soon and provide the next meal.

But the point is well taken; this guy is someone who would never gain any traction without his target being compromised. He took advantage of the grief you were experiencing.

You shouldn't move with him unless he is willing to offer you care. He never has.

I would tell him what you require from him in a caring marriage, Melody Lane gave you a great list. You can motivate him by Plan Aing and at the end of Plan A repeat your request for a caring marriage. If he agrees, ( in deeds, not words) then discuss where you BOTH want to live. You are not chattel to be moved around at whim.

If he says no, then his moving provides an opportunity for Plan B.

Read the When to call it quits article which outlines how to motivate your spouse with these plans before calling time on the marriage.

Honestly though I wouldn't bother. He is very dedicated to his freeloading, your children dislike him and you don't have any children together - your efforts would be better spent finding someone more suitable.

These are the guys who were circling me after I was betrayed. With advice from this forum, I waited until I was happy before I dated.

Good men don't help grieving women, they have a natural respect for their privacy and leave them to other women and relatives.

What if there isn't anybody more suitable and I wind up spending my life alone. I know I would still have my family as everybody points out but it is not the same as having a significant other. If I am having any kind of issue and I need him...car problem, need somebody to talk to, etc. he is there and talks to me or comes after me. My family does not always respond that quickly.

I remember how I felt when my deceased husband died, sleeping in that empty bed night after night. Wanting to talk to him and him not being there. It was devastating. Friends and family said you will meet somebody. I joined what I thought were legitimate date sites and the sleaze balls came out of the woodwork. I hadn't dated in over 25 years and it wasn't what I expected. One guy came close to raping me.

And then my husband came along...the most gentle, thoughtful, romantic man that I had ever met. He would look at me sometimes like he thought I was a dream. He made me feel like something that was so delicate that it would break. Even though he was out on the road driving his truck, he would still make sure he was here for major events. As my kids started graduating from high school, he would come in for the graduation and take everybody out to dinner.

He and I would be walking thru the mall and he would suddenly decide to buy me a new coat, shoes, or just some clothes. He would always hold his arm out for me to take when we were walking, open doors for me. My young sons saw this happening and they would actually try to beat each other to a door to hold it open for me. He has been a positive influence on my kids in some respects.

A) no one is better than a freeloader, b) you wait until you are ready to date, ready for the battlefield that is dating.

[quote=] joined what I thought were legitimate date sites and the sleaze balls came out of the woodwork. I hadn't dated in over 25 years and it wasn't what I expected. One guy came close to raping me. [/quote]

As recently bereaved you had a bullseye on you for men who enjoy targets. I've had to sift through dating sates too and while the sleazes outnumber the good guys, they aren't hard to spot. You can meet wonderful men online. Men who are in the same boat as you. Just because there are sleazes online doesn't mean good men are automatically barred from sites. Real life, clubs and societies also provides plenty of opportunities. When nice men are widowed or divorced, they don't vanish. They exist.

If you really think your H has potential, see how he responds to the plans. If there's anything there to motivate, the plans will work. But don't settle into a. 'better than nothing ' mentality which is really just misleading fear.

Your children are good judges of character and know a bad marriage when they see one. So do you, because you've had a successful marriage.

Don't kid yourself that this is what you have to settle for.

Sorry to interfere with your metaphor. It just seemed unjust to me. Vultures only feed on the dead, whereas the people your talking about feed on the living. It didn't seem like a fair comparison. I had to speak up for the poor vultures.

Isn't this all in the past tense? Hasn't he admitted proudly that this is the persona he uses to get women, not his true persona?

Lol,

I am stretching poetic license, I admit. Vultures are creatures of nature doing an important job. Cleaning up, really.

Women will get what I mean though. That sharp, hard look in a man's eye. Joy at your pain. Literally being circled. You do feel like prey.

And how is he NOW? That would be nice if he were this way now, but you know he is not now. Romanticizing about the past does not help you accept the reality of the present. And that is the issue at hand.

I fear that you are poised to allow a bad marriage to ruin your entire life. You have a bad marriage, but a good job, make a good living and have wonderful, supportive children. Do you want to sacrifice it ALL for a bad marriage? Do you want to live your latter years in a strange state without a job and without your children?

Your emotions are leading you to a very, very bad place, my friend. I see nothing but more tragedy in your future if you don't get a grip. You have to put your emotions aside and start using your logic. You are a grown up, not a teenager.

I missed this ^^^ before. I would get away from this man for this reason alone...not to mention the 80 other reasons you have. Sorry but your husband does not care about/for you and looks like he may only want a nurse vs a wife. He refuses to help himself and you are enabling him.

I'd rather be alone than be used by my husband. Sorry for your hurt but things will only get worse IMO if you move. If you want to be with someone no matter how they treat you or your children, that is certain your perogative but it sounds miserable to me.

Good luck to you.

RHL, your husband is going to dump you. If not now, then later. Perhaps after you quit your job and move across the country. You will have alienated your sons if you go with your H to Texas. Your sons love you and will be there for you, your husband will not. He has not been there for you.

Your children grew up in a good home with a good model of marriage. it seems that wisdom is guiding their opinion, without the same emotional block that prevents you from seeing this for what it is.

RHL

You have received a wealth of good input and advice, I would be hard press to find more to say but I will.

I want to first let you know that we are not here to tell you what to do, just to tell what works according to Dr. H. Your husband is a freeloader because he is expecting you to sacrifice for him. If he loves you and cares for you why would he want to you to suffer for his benefit.

You moving or not moving is something that you both should be happy about. And if he want to reconnect with his kids and family he need to do it with you as you have with him. You and him should not spend an overnight without each other.

If he is not willing to accommodate your Emotional Needs then what hope do you have to be happy. It sounds like your Love bank is still high for him and you still remember when it was really high. This is the same feeling gamblers feel about gambling. They remember when they won a lot and forget that they have lost so much more.

I don't know if we are going to be able to save you the heartache but trust us if you move it is going to only get worse even though he is promising you he will be better. And, if you felt alone before you will really feel alone when you are away from your family and you have given up everything to chase him.

I have a feeling he doesn't really want you to follow him (because if he did he would have involved you him his decision to move). I feel he is just not man enough to tell you it's over (which it has been for a while). Before he needed you for financial support but now he doesn't need you anymore so he is moving on.

Cut your losses and move on (Unless his ACTIONS not words prove us wrong). Life is too short to waste it with him.

I presented him with options for staying in Indiana for the next 4 years...moving to a different house here...visiting his family several times a year. He said no, that he wants to go to Texas. He said that he is not considering it a break up. He still wants to be with me but he wants it to be there. I am heartbroken.

I am so sorry.

Sorry.

This is devastating, RHL - I am deeply sorry for your pain.

I don't think you should volunteer for any more of this treatment where you are treated as an optional item to take on a move.

That would not make me feel very loved or safe. I would expect to get dumped at some point.

I think you should hold out for someone who treats you as his first priority.

I so sorry to hear that but it better then being in TX when you figure it out.

After presenting my husband with the options that I came up with to stay in Indiana for a few years, then move to Texas and him saying no...this is some of what he said. He said he is not going to get away from me, that he loves me but he wants to be close to his adult children and parents. He said that he does not know if he has a few more years in him due to his health issues and that he is miserable here. He said he intends on getting a two bedroom house and making sure that there is enough space for me (half the drawers and half the closets, this has been an issue with us. He wanted me to empty out half the drawers in the bathroom and bedroom for him. I told him that I felt the bathroom was public area(there is only one bathroom) and he had the whole den to himself...his stuff only including a wardrobe and I didn't have enough space for me)...this is where I created part of our problems.

He reminded me that out happiest times were when we were in his truck together when he was driving cross-country...when he was making most of the decisions about our life. He said that we had not and specifically me had not been that happy since he had lost his decision making role. He feels like we could have that happiness back again but only if he assumes that role again.

I kept getting teary eyed about him leaving.
He said "Is this really how you want to spend our last couple of days together, every time I look at you...you are crying."
I said "That is because I am the one being left behind and I don't understand how this could not be upsetting to you as well."
He said "I look at it as a new beginning. I would love for you to be a part of it but I can't make you go with me that has to be your choice. But I am going."

He is planning to leave on Friday if his car repairs are complete. He intends to come back in three weeks with his son to get the rest of his stuff.

I just feel so devastated over this. I am thinking of telling his parents that this move is not alright with me because I think he is telling his parents and children that I am cool with it. Should I say something to them or just say goodbye.

rhl, I am so sorry. I would tell his parents goodbye. This set up will make it impossible for you to have a marriage. You can't have a marriage if you are not together.

The thing is Melody that he wants to be together, just not here. He wants to be together in Texas.

My two youngest sons want me to do whatever I want to be happy, even if that means moving to Texas. My oldest daughter in Florida is just furious with me for even considering a move to Texas.

I will use the time that he is gone to do some serious thinking. Maybe while we are separated during his initial visit before he moves... I can be more clear headed.

I keep shivering, shaking, and crying.I am in counseling and my medical doctor knows what is going on. The doctor has said that he would write me a prescription for ADs if I want them. My pastor thinks that I should just let time take the pain instead of using the drugs. He thinks that the drugs will just prolong the pain.

I am listening to all the advice on here but right now I feel like I am in a fog of grief and I just want the agony to stop.

Dear RedHeadedLady:

Please, get a prescription for AD's. The result will be that you will be able to think more clearly, and feel less anxiety. You will not feel NO anxiety. Nor will you be numb, or dozey. You will be able to get more rest, which is so necessary during your time of immense stress. And, your need for them will be temporary.

I took Dr. Harley's advice and asked my doc for a prescription for AD's during the nightmare of my husband's affair. They were really helpful for me. They did not "prolong my pain", but allowed me to deal with it.

Work with your doctor to determine which is the right AD, and what the dosage should be for you. They usually take a few days to a week before their results are felt, and you will need to follow your doctor's advice on how to come off them. But if your doc has already ok'd them, I would follow his/her advice.

Listen to your doctor in this case. It sounds like your pastor is uninformed about depression and its effects on people. ADs are a great help in depressed times. They will not prolong your pain; rather, they will bring your negative emotions into a more neutral area, allowing you to think more clearly. Work closely with your doctor.

It would be a great mistake for you to move to Texas right now. Your marriage is already in trouble and if you move, you will lose your financial security and your network of friends and family.

You and your H apparently didn't follow the POJA in order to create a compatible life style you both enjoyed. The best solution would have been for you to sell your current house and move into one that you and your H would have selected, setting it up a way that you both enjoyed. You can still present this idea to him.

If he insists on leaving, then he isn't interested in working together with you to create a great marriage.

Please take your doctor's advice and have him write you a prescription for ADs. They will help the mood swings.

Is there anybody here who thinks it would be a good thing in anyway for me to move to Texas?

Also, any ideas on how to make myself stop crying so much in his presence? I really don't want that to be the last memory of me in his mind.

LongWayFromHome,
"The best solution would have been for you to sell your current house and move into one that you and your H would have selected, setting it up a way that you both enjoyed. You can still present this idea to him."

I did suggest selling the house, finding another house here in Indiana that we would both like and him visiting his family several times a year until I can retire in 3.5 years...then we could move to Texas together. He said NO.

Yes, I do understand that you have presented this idea to him and he refused it, since he has already made up his mind to move to TX, regardless of whether you join him. Although it's water under the bridge, the best time to sell the house and move into something that both spouses like is at the time of the marriage.

It seems that he is not interested at all in being married to you unless it's completely the way he wants it, which means you will lose your job and financial security and your network of friends and be completely vulnerable to a man who doesn't seem to care. I find it alarming that he liked the marriage better when he was making the decisions. The best marriages are those that follow the POJA.

I understand now that we should have sold the house and found another place years ago. He liked living here the first few years, he loved the six acres of land (he created a small race track in back to drive sandrails and scooters), he loved the 2 garages, even living in the country. I did not realize for a long time that because the house was one that my deceased husband and I purchased and because the kids were associating the house with their dad...that it was creating problems between us.

As I posted when you first came here, due to your husbands angry outbursts (and threatening to shoot your sons), Dr. Harley would probably encourage you to separate from him until he can control his anger.

Quitting your job and moving with him would probably not be advised

Based on some of your posts, it sounds like the garage and tools were like a museum for the deceased husband and your current husband hated it.

The main issue right now is the angry outbursts and physical threats.

You can email Dr. Harley directly if you like: mbradio@marriagebuilders.com. Include your name and number and he may speak with you personally.

If he learned how to control his anger, and was willing to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement you could have a great marriage.

But moving with him at this point does not guarantee any future success.

RHL

I think he is being very clear that he doesn't care about your happiness. The AD will help with the crying but you don't need to mask your feelings. Your feelings are valid and his choice to still move forward despite you obvious displeasure says volumes about how he feels about you.

Don't listen to his word (it only designed to pacify you will he moves), once he has completely moved out I doubt he'll even waste time on that. Watch his actions, a man that wants to be with you wouldn't leave you.

And, don't let him convince you that by not following him you have chosen to end this marriage. He has chosen to leave you not the other way around.

It is obvious that he is not a spiritual man but some men us the Bible to control their spouse. And I'm not sure if that is the case here, but if that is the case, be assured that the Bible believes in the Policy of Joint Agreement, so don't let him use that either.

He may have felt that way about the garage Jedi, I don't know. He had full access to it and everything at the house. My sons would get upset if one of their dad's tools was broken by my husband and my husband would get upset if the boys did not put the tools back properly. Like I said, problems that I should have seen but didn't because I was an idiot at the time.

You are not a mind reader, if it was a big concern of his then he should of voiced it. I'm sure if he did you would of discussed options that may work for both of you. You are not a idiot just human and don't waste your energy trying to figure out what you could of done to make him want to stay. You're not the reason he is not staying, he is a freeloader and no matter what you would of done it wouldn't stopped his freeloader ways.

I don't know Life, I keep looking back on all the things that I did wrong. I would come home from work and be aggravated because he has spent the day watching TV, playing video games, or playing on the computer. Then I would be doing dishes, cooking, and laundry. The reason why I was wrong is because I would get upset with him for not doing anything but not so upset with my teenage son for not doing anything to help out. I would make excuses for my son...he goes to school all day and has several hours of homework to do after school. While you are home all day and do nothing to help. I can see the error in my ways but it is much too late to do anything about it. I screwed up.

He was your husband and a grown up not your kid!

You seem determined to find excuses for his freeloading, lazy, insulting lack of care. Ever have any 'teenage boy' problems with your first husband? Of course you would be upset with that. Your mistake was not kicking him out for treating you like a meal ticket.

Now he's controlling too and is set on making all your decisions for you. While making it clear he cares nothing for you and will KILL any children who dare to stand up for you.

It is them I feel sorry for actually because you've always had a choice. They lost their father, then they lost their mother to a two-faced con act.

At least their father didn't go voluntarily.

If you must run after him, try to keep some money aside and keep saving for the day when he walks away again. Or you come to your senses. Tell your children about this fund so they have some reassurance in their terror for you.

They say the spouse who cares least has the most power. You are the weakest because you accept his lack of care.

Hell, he moved in commitment free and jobless for three years at the very start. That was the red flag which showed it was never going to be any good.

You are weeping in front of him and he simply doesn't care.

He is willing to take a slave, but he will never be a true partner you can make decisions with. You can never expect him to care about you want.

You'd be selling your soul.

How can someone who has experienced true happiness in her first marriage settle for this sham?

Can you imagine your first H pulling this trick? What do you think he would say?

Please don't throw away the security of your home and your nearby family to follow someone who makes you feel unsafe and unloved.

My husband left for Texas today. We have spent a substantial amount of time talking the last couple of days and I already miss him.

I am so sorry.

Very sorry for you, RHL.

Maybe revisit the doc for some AD's, and if possible, get some physical activity to ward off depression in the short term

I started AD's two days ago. He is planning on coming back at the first of June to get the rest of his belongings. He said, "I Love You and I am not leaving you." I asked him to clarify because what I hear is that he is coming back to stay. He said no that he is still moving to Texas but he would make sure that whatever place he got would have room for me. He would make sure that I had half the dresser space and half the closet space (this was another issue that had caused him to be upset, because he did not have the same amount of space as me...I look at it now and think about how stupid I was to argue over such a little thing). I thought because he had a whole den to himself including a wardrobe and a clothes rack that would equal enough space, obviously I wasn't truly listening to the things that bothered him because even the little things build up.

I have been reflecting on our relationship and what has occurred over the past few years. I know I can't go back and request a "redo" but if I could I would do things differently. I told too much of our personal business to family and friends, this caused problems with their feelings towards him. I was so upset and selfish with how I thought he should be that I kept trying to change him instead of acknowledging all the good in him. The most awful thing that I did...I kept thinking about having him leave and kept pushing him away...through words and my actions. I would get annoyed because it felt like he was constantly touching me, looking at me, calling me too much while I was working...I made him feel so unloved and unappreciated. I realize now the mistakes that I made and it is too late to do anything about it. I am so miserable and don't know what to do with all the empty time on my hands.

It is bad enough when you are not accepted by your spouses family but it is even worse when the person that you have chosen to spend your life with shows you in every action that she does not want you in her life.

He is facing difficulties on the road already. He didn't have enough money to pay for a hotel room and gas to finish his trip so he slept in his car in a truck stop last night. He is towing an old VW to give to his son and along the way the wheel came off and damaged the brake drum. He had to put another wheel on and it was difficult for him because of his health issues. He was about half way to Texas when I talked to him last night.

rhl, the reason your marriage fell apart is because he wouldn't change. That is not a "mistake" to tell your complaints to your spouse; it is the path to a compatible, loving marriage. The problem is that he wouldn't change to accommodate your needs.

Your husband is what Dr. Harley calls a freeloader:

Freeloader is unwilling to put much effort into the care of his or her partner in a romantic relationship. He or she does only what comes naturally and expects only what comes naturally. It's like a person who tries to live in a house without paying rent or doing anything to improve it unless the person is in the mood to do so.

Renter is willing to provide limited care as long as it's in his or her best interest. The romantic relationship is considered tentative, so the care is viewed as short-term. It's like a person who rents a house and is willing to stay as long as the conditions seem fair, or until he or she finds something better. The person is willing to pay reasonable rent and keep the house clean but is not willing to make repairs or improvements. It's the landlord's job to keep the place attractive enough for the renter to stay and continue paying rent.

Buyer is willing to demonstrate an extraordinary sense of care by making permanent changes in his or her own behavior and lifestyle to make the romantic relationship mutually fulfilling. Solutions to problems are long-term solutions and must work well for both partners because the romantic relationship is viewed as exclusive and permanent. It's like a person who buys a house for life with a willingness to make repairs that accommodate changing needs, painting the walls, installing new carper, replacing the roof, and even doing some remodeling so that it can be comfortable and useful.

Renters believe Our relationship is temporary. You may be right for me today and wrong for me tomorrow.

Buyers believe We are together for life.

Renters believe Our relationship should be fair. What I get should balance what I give.

Buyers believe We both contribute whatever it takes to make our relationship successful.

Renters believe As needs change, the relationship may end if needs are difficult to meet.

Buyers believe As needs change, we will make adjustments to meet new needs.

Renters believe Criticism may prompt me to change if it's worthwhile for me to do so.

Buyer believe Criticism indicates a need for change.

Rentersbelieve Sacrifice is reasonable as long as it's fair.

Buyers believe Sacrifice is dangerous and to be avoided.

Renters believe Short-term fixes are fine.

Buyers believe long-term solutions are necessary.

I have been talking to my sister's and my children about moving to Texas. My youngest two sons (18 and 20) say they want me to do whatever will make me happy. My two daughters (24 and 26) are livid that I would even consider choosing my husband over them, they both live in other states. My sisters think I should think long and hard about it and have a backup plan but they just want me to be happy. I feel like I am having to choose between my kids and my husband. Has anybody else ever moved to another state to be with their husband when they have adult children?

Melody, If we know how somebody is when we marry them...shouldn't we accept them for who they are instead of trying to change them?

I have been paying close attention to the things that he does around here for the past couple of weeks and I started noticing the things that I appreciate about him. I know that some of these things may sound silly to people but they are still things that I appreciate. I love coming home in the evening and spending those first few minutes talking...he will normally ask me how my day was and listen, then he tells me about his day. If either of us had a funny story or some issue come up, we call the other one. My tire was flat the day before he left and he took care of it. On weekends when I am home, he fixes breakfast for us. He enjoys when I am actively involved watching a movie...when I laugh out loud or shriek when I am scared...some people get annoyed at that. I fell going down the ramp the day he was leaving, he was immediately at my side helping me up and making sure that I was okay. I'm not scared when he is here, he makes me feel safe.

I need suggestions on things to do to occupy my time.

It would be a huge mistake for you to move to Texas. It is not a move that would make you happy, it is a move that would destroy your life. Creating a "happy" marriage with a freeloader is impossible. All that would happen is that your bad marriage will fall apart down in Texas, and you will have lost your job and alienated your children.

Your husband is not even willing to work on the marriage, rhl, so I don't understand wht you are thinking you will gain. Your marriage was a disaster in your current state and it will be a disaster in Texas.

What do you enjoy doing?

I understand you are in withdrawal from your husband becaucse he has just left. But the solution is not to follow him to Texas, it is to ride this out until you are through withdrawal.

It is much like quitting smoking. At first your emotions are frantically telling you to get some cigarettes, but as each day goes by you miss them less and less. Pretty soon you are not thinking about it at all and are actually feeling good about not smoking.

If you will just allow yourself to go through withdrawal for a few months, your judgment won't be so impaired and influenced by your attachment to your husband. You will be able to make decisions based on good judgment instead of panicked emotions.

I don't even know what I enjoy doing anymore. When my deceased husband was alive my life was wrapped around him and taking care of him when he was so sick. I pretty much stayed in my bedroom for 6 months after he died, I came out when my kids came home from school...cooked, cleaned, did the things that I had to do to survive. I had this emptiness in my heart and my life, not knowing how to fill my day.

And now, it is almost the same situation. My husband has been so much a part of my life that I feel an empty void in my day. I am going to a birthday party today, I don't want to...I feel so teary eyed that I am almost afraid to. My son is talking about going to see Godzilla today, he thinks it might take my mind off what is happening for a short while. Everything I do reminds me of something that I did as a couple with my husband.

What about starting an exercise program? When my husband left me I threw myself into exercise and it was a great relief. It also helped me get into the best shape of my life.

What about your house? How about a nice spring cleaning project? What about buying some furniture or getting a room painted?

When you are down, it is important to make yourself get out. The old adage of "feelings follow actions" applies very much here!

You are going to do what you want to do. You are high on love and are not thinking clearly. You husband hates you independence and want full dependance and control of you. You are beginning to sound like the woman explaining how she caused her husband to abuse her (and put her in the hospital). You are too much in a fog to see that. The pain that you husband implementing on you right now and in his words 'to control' you is abuse and you are defending him.


You may lose your daughters in the process not because they don't want you to be happy but because they can't bear seeing you get horribly hurt. He is very clear he does not what to change anything and hasn�t and he is annoyed that he can�t just shut you up about it, so he is taking back control even if it reck both of your lives in the process.

I'd recommend vigorous exercise somewhere away from home.
Can you go for a run? A bicycle ride?

Is it really wrong for your husband to have the leadership role. He had that when we were in the truck but I took that away from him when he moved in here. I don't mind him being the leader, but I had to be the leader in my family when my husband was so sick and died. It was very much a relief to me and quite enjoyable when I was in the truck with husband, I liked being his helpmate and him making decisions. Now don't get me wrong, he did not make all the decisions but there were some things that he felt strongly about and they were always legitimate things.

It's ok for him to lead as long as he makes sure you are enthusiastic about his decision. And it's great to be a helper as long as he takes your help. The fact that he decided to move to TX despite your displeasure shows a lack of (at less Godly) leadership and an unwilling heart to get help from you. He wants control not leadership.

That sounds more like control, which is not good for marriage. Arrangements like that lead to incompatibility and resentment because one spouse always ends up making sacrifices. However, when there is a partnership where decisions are made that both are enthusiastic about, then compatibility is created.

RHL, the best marriages are ones where both spouses have input in every decision. The basis of policy of joint agreement dictates that no decisions should be made without the enthusiastic agreement of both spouses.

Just giving him "leadership" rights does not take your feelings into account when decisions are made. So if those unilateral decisions have bad outcomes, then you resent HIM. When you make decisions together, you avoid that outcome.

Have you ordered Dr. Harley's book Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders?

Here's a thread to get you going. Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders

The Policy of Joint Agreement does not contradict the Bible. I could send you a lot of scriptures on Husbands and wives roles according to the Bible but I�ll use Ephesians 5:22-33 to give you a clear view on what the bible says about the roles of husbands and wives. So let�s go through this scripture.

Ephesians 5:22-24
22 Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord, 23 because the husband is the head of the wife as also Christ is the head of the church � he himself being the savior of the body. 24 But as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

This is addressed to wives not to husbands. It doesn't here or in any other scripture tell the husband that they are to teach or to help their wives submit. It doesn't say the husbands are to lord this scripture over their wives. In fact there is no scripture that tells husbands to lead, teach, or control their wives. It tells wives they are to be subject to their own husband. And when it says head it does not mean brain of the family because when it was written the brain was not understood because no one until a little over a hundred years would agree the brain had any control over the body.

Now since for the most part husbands are the once that usually object to the Policy of Joint Agreement let us look at the instructions to husbands.

Ephesians 5:25-33
25 Husbands, love your wives just as Christ loved the church and gave himself for her 26 to sanctify her by cleansing her with the washing of the water by the word, 27 so that he may present the church to himself as glorious � not having a stain or wrinkle, or any such blemish, but holy and blameless. 28 In the same way husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 For no one has ever hated his own body but he feeds it and takes care of it, just as Christ also does the church, 30 for we are members of his body. 31 For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and will be joined to his wife, and the two will become one flesh. 32 This mystery is great � but I am actually speaking with reference to Christ and the church. 33 Nevertheless, each one of you must also love his own wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.

It should be clear that a husband�s job is to love his wife as Christ loves us. He is to take care of her as his own body. They are to become one. He is to love her as he loves himself. In John 10:10 Jesus says, �The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come so that they may have life, and may have it abundantly.", since Jesus desires to give us an abundant life then husbands should have the same attitude towards their wives.


So how can a husband force his wife into a win lose situation (where he wins and she loses) and still follow the command to love as he loves and cares for himself. And how can a wife do the same and still submit to her husband. Even though God didn't call it the Policy of Joint Agreement, he setup the contract to make that the case. The only way to follow this scripture is to follow the policy of Joint Agreement.

Leadership doesn't mean a man should make demands of his wife or tell her what to do. Doing so will usually make his wife miserable, which is the exact opposite of good leadership. Married people have promised to love and protect each other above all else, and that means putting their husband or wife's feelings over all other desires, no matter how much those desires are felt to be "legitimate." I may be convinced my opinion is correct, but I always, always, always benefit from bringing my wife's wisdom and perspective in, and if she does not feel that my conclusion is correct, we don't go that direction. This means we may sometimes take awhile before we make a move but when we do finally move the direction we are going is a much better idea, has been much more considered, and is much more pleasing to us both.

You didn't take anything away from him, he decided to freeload which meant he chose not to make decisions. Freeloaders don't make helpful decisions, nor care much about making their mark because they view the whole situation as temporary.

If he wanted to make his mark, he would have got off his tush, stopped playing video games and changed things.

When he wasn't working he got a free ride - so now that he is, he's raised his price. If he's going to support you at all he wants a submissive wife that has no say. I'm convinced this Texas thing is little more than a test to see how much he can make you sacrifice and how slavish you are willing to be.

I'm the kind of woman who adores a man taking the lead, but his decisions should put me first on his priority list and consider my feelings. You are not even in the top ten, you come after his parents, children job, place of residence - everything. He's moving state specifically to make you lose the things that make you feel most safe and secure.

A husband who decided where I was living without even considering my feelings would have me researching divorce lawyers. It's just a promise that more of these types of inconsiderate decisions are to come.

I understand what everybody is saying but he is old fashioned in his beliefs and that is one of the reasons that I fell in love with him. I thought that marriage builders was about keeping marriages together but it seems like most if not all feel like we should separate.

I think he has been miserable for a long time and I just didn't see it. He has also talked about eventually moving back to Texas (ever since his first winter here) because he hates the cold in Indiana. I just thought that I would have more advance notice than this.

MB strives to save a marriage where others would toss it away.

However, it seems you are seeking justification for staying in a marriage where your needs will never be met. It is not marriage at all costs.

Red, you don't have to take any of this advice if you don't want to.

Go to Texas, give up your family and your job and let him control you from now on if you are so dead set on doing that.

Just don't expect it to be a happy experience or even a long lasting one.

When you are really unhappy and have lost everything you might be more motivated to sort out your own life instead of having a death grip on a man out of fear.

You never established yourself on your own two feet after your husband's death and you still don't want to. That's what this all boils down to.

But every woman has to do that at some point. I did it when my XH had an affair although I had never been alone. I learned how to be independent and ensure I was capable and happy before I dated again.

Even my grandmother, who was happily married to a most manly and old fashioned leader of a man for sixty years had to learn this because she was widowed in old age, as most women are.

You just can't afford to be this weak and survive life. I don't think you ARE naturally weak either, I just think your H caught you at a weak time and is hell bent on keeping that weakness alive and himself dominant.

RHL

I'm sorry you feel that way about Marriage Builders. I understand some people have to go through it to know it is not good and it sound like you are one of those people. I which that was not the case.

I do want to make it clear we do not want to separate you, he does. All we can tell you is what works. As the man of my house I would never have my wife through what he is having you go through, because I love and care for her too much. And even if I didn't God commands love and care for her.

I hope after you go through this very painful time in you life and are able to get back online you can help others not go through what you are about to go through. My prays go with you.

my wife left a few times...she wanted to move and did move for a few months out of state and came back a few months later.
She did it without me and had the attitude that I should follow her. My attitude was that I had a job and didnt want to quit on a dime.
She made these decisions in like a week and just wanted to abandon the house, belongings etc.

In a marriage both should make decisions.

You are contemplating allowing him to dictate decisions. Can you have a marriage like that? Yes, many do. Are they happy?

I've had relatives like this and as they get older, the resentment becomes so massive that they just shoot disrespectful judgements and name calling back and forth all day long, even in the presence of others.

Indeed and this isn't something Red would do, she cares far more for her H than she would for any move or change in lifestyle.

She even knows that this is because she is a buyer and buyers dont make huge, indepedent, life changing decisions on their own that hurt the other person. However a buyer will always consider being flexible, which is fine when you are with another buyer.

A buyer who is tied to a renter gets stomped on, because they are the only ones being flexible.

A buyer tied to a freeloader like this will be absolutely squished.

I was "old fashioned" in my beliefs for a long time, too. I went out of my way to "submit," sacrificing my desires to"follow my husband's lead." I believed it was what a good wife was supposed to do.

It never worked. It only lead to unhappiness and resentment for me, and only encouraged further disrespect and demands from my husband. Sacrifice destroys marriages.

You can continue to sacrifice by just doing what he wants no matter how much it bothers you, and you may even stay married. But you will never be happy.

Marriage Builders is not about just keeping marriages together. It is about building ROMANTIC, OVER THE MOON IN LOVE, HAPPY marriages, where BOTH husband and wife are considering each other in ALL decisions and are BOTH getting their needs met. Sacrifice doesn't lead to that. Take it from a formally "submissive" wife. It doesn't work.



Independent behavior is one way to solve his misery, but it is not a good way to go about solving it if your desire is to have a happy marriage.

I just wish he would stay here long enough for us to plan a move.

He had all kinds of problems on his way down there. He was towing a car and the wheel came off. He has a separate bank card that his social security is paid to, he tried to get a hotel room and found out that he only had $58 on his card and $70 in his pocket. He slept in a truck stop parking lot all night, he was only half way to Texas. When he was about a hundred miles from Texas, his car started blowing black smoke and losing power. Luckily his son was able to go get him and pull the cars to his house in Texas. My heart was aching for him.

I feel for him too but that is evidence bad planning skills which are need to be a great leader. I believe if he practiced the POJA all of that would of been thought through if you moved. And, I think you guy would of come up with a plan that considers everything a would be better then any plan both of you have come up with.

He is moving to TX right now because he believe he is dying soon and what to be with his parents and children before he dies. That is the reason he couldn't wait the 3.5 yrs for you guys to retire with your pension. If that is true about he is dying soon (which I don't think you really believe) what are you going to do then alone in TX with no support.

And if he isn't dying soon then he should wait to allow guys to retire and sell the house in 3.5 yrs because life is just longer with no money. If he is just unhappy with you and the marriage then Dr. H programs can help with that. The suddenness of the move without any input from you is my concern.

As in the military the leaders are not the only one to blame then an obviously bad choice it made. The people that choice to follow them are also responsible are prosecuted. You should follow a bad leader because you can't then say it was his fault for where you are. Your job as a helper is to help him be the leader you need him to be.

Mine doesn't because he could have been comfortably at home the whole time. Or he could have taken the time to get organised as you say.

But what does that matter, when you have a wife to gaslight?

I think his children will soon get pretty tired of his gesture to be near him if they are having to constantly pull him out of his own self made messes.

I would not vote for the author of this fiasco to be my personal leader in life.

Do you foresee happiness if you follow him into this chaos?

Was your first husband your leader and if so, was he a more capable one than this husband?

I'm struggling to see why you think following someone with such a terrible track record in his general life is a good idea.

Perhaps you think if you are as devoted to him as you were to your first H, that he will magically become more like your first H?

He isn't the same guy!

Did you ever read this?

Which one do you see your H as?

How can I help him to be a good leader if he will not listen to my advice.

You can't.

You must realise that we can't control others, only ourselves?

The best thing you can do is not go along with his schemes and let him go without all the wonderful,sane things he got from you. If you set a high standard (the list Melody Lane gave you) and don't settle for less, let him fall on his A with his crazy schemes, he may be motivated to try sense.

But then again he may not. He may like being a freeloader who causes chaos.

That's free will for you.

Did you read this?

Yes I did read it.

We don't believe in saving lost causes. Sometimes divorce is the definition of success. You gave him an offer to create a great marriage, but he turned you down. You can't force a person to be married to you against his will, rhl. You can't force a person to change.

Which one do you think your husband is? A buyer, renter or freeloader?

QFT

The most influence you can have on him is by setting the bar high. He will either rise to meet your standards (which will improve your marriage), or he will not (in which case you are better off without him).

***Update***
My husband has called me every day since he has been in Texas. Most of the calls have been about 10 minutes with just the basics of what is happening with him...no intimate phone calls. But he is planning on coming back sometime next week to get the rest of his stuff. He told me that he would "appreciate" having me with him, not "I would love to have you with me or I miss so much."

What he doesn't know is that I am getting stronger everyday. I work for a contractor and he is coming out to change all my locks this week. I also went and got boxes to pack up all his stuff. I will be putting his stuff into a storage unit and let him know where. If I have any trouble with him, then I will get a protective order. He doesn't know any of this yet because I want to wait until I have everything done before I tell him.

Pray for me to have strength because he knows how to smooth talk and I know he will start doing that before he heads this way. He will also find out that he will have extra living expense because he thinks he will be staying with me while he is getting stuff ready to move but he is not.

Very proud of you and I'm going to pray for you.

I am so very proud of you!! Look at you!! I would agree very much that you are getting much stronger every day and that is evidenced by your decision to not be his "option." You recognized that you deserve so much better and have planned accordingly.

Your children must be so very proud of their mama.

I'm scared Melody because he has always been able to manipulate me and I am afraid that I will fall for it again...especially when he starts sweet talking me. I have been paying careful attention to everything he says and the words that he uses.

I have also heard from a mutual friend that my husband does not want me to come to Texas except to be able to use the money that I would get from my house. I was also told that he gave one of his friends permission to "bang me".

He does not know that I know any of this. Even when I have been seething with rage, I still maintain my calm on the phone.

He will tell me what a bad day he has had...how hot it is in Texas...how he has to smoke outside his son's house in Texas...that it is going to cost his over $900 to rent a moving truck. I just tell him "oh that's a shame and that doesn't even include the fuel and insurance".

Don't get me wrong, I still have moments that I cry for what we used to have but I am taking to heart that actions speak louder than words.

Redheadlady,

You may need to have No COntact with him to protect yourself emotionally.
Have you considered this?

I have but I do not want to give him any idea about what I am up to. I am also meeting with my counselor this week to help me with dealing with him. My kids, my sister, my neighbor and my employer are being very supportive. I also started going to church again. And this is a biggee for me, I did not shed any tears for him today.

On a lighter note. I have a brand new grandson and my youngest child graduated from high school yesterday. I was allowed to watch the birth of my grandson and it was the most amazing thing I have ever seen. And when my son graduated yesterday, all of his siblings (with the exception of a sister that lives in Florida) were in attendance. I have had a very full and very wonderful weekend.

Glad to hear that you are doing better and are freeing yourself from his "spell". It is sad to hear and come to realize such a bad truth about the man you have loved. Regretfully you cannot love and kiss this frog into the prince he gaslighted you into thinking he was. You will feel such relief if you are truely free from him. And the leech will find another poor person to feed on...

I am so happy for you and so proud of your resolve!

I agree that he has a good manipulative sense. I'd suggest you go no contact with him, changing your contact details to prevent him harassing you.

Why not stick around too and let us support you through this change? You don't have to have a pressing question or decision to get support here.

Keep up the good work, Lady. I am praying for you.

Congratulations on a wonderful weekend!

AM

My heart hurts for all the years that I stood by him and believed that he loved me. For kicking myself all this time for everything that I didn't do or could have done to make things better between us and then to realize that he thought so little of me.

I am embarrassed, hurt, and angry. Most of all I am hurt that I trusted him so much with all my thoughts, my dreams, things that I never told anybody else about me and now I wonder how much of that is going to come back and bite me.

It's smart not to throw good time after bad. The clock resets now to day one of a whole new life. Don't waste it kicking yourself!



What are you afraid he will do?

Hang in there, red. Congrats on the new grandbaby too!

Hi Red;

Would you consider a "Plan B", (which means you have absolutely NO contact with him, and if he requires any necessary info, he communicates his questions through an intermediary or your choosing)?

You could set this up to be ready just before he arrives.

This would protect you from his manipulative ways.

And give you a calm space in which to heal.

Redheaded, congrats on the new grandbaby! My mom has a husband that has leeched off her their whole marriage, and it would be such a relief if she got herself some respite like you are. Have you talked to your kids about this, they will be a great source of support too.

My kids are very supportive, they have wanted him to leave for a very long time. They have born the brunt of his emotional and verbal abuse. He kept telling me that I had never been a man so I did not know what went through a boys mind. He said he had to be that way with the boys so they would listen. He said that is how father's treat their sons when they are teenagers so they can grow up and be responsible. And the bad part is that he made me doubt my instincts.

I have 7 children, one of them died over 20 years ago when he was 16 when he was involved in a car accident. The other 6 have all graduated from high school. The oldest is married and supporting a family. The other 5- 3 of them have graduated college, 1 will be graduating in the fall, and the youngest will be starting college in the fall. So, I think I did a pretty good job encouraging them to make a success of themselves.

I do regret the abuse that I allowed him to use on my kids, I am seeing clearer now than I have in a long time.

lady, do you really have a 42 year-old child? You must have been very young when you had him. And what do you mean in your signature "2 kids for my husband"? Have you had kids in this marriage?

You've done an amazing job with them. They sound wonderful!

I really do have a 42 year old son. I was 14 when I had him. The 2 children for my husband are his children from 2 of his 3 previous marriages.

I packed up my husbands clothes tonight and even held a couple of his shirts close to me just to smell his scent. This is a little harder than I thought it would be. Tomorrow I will pack up his den and a few more things from our bedroom.

I'd rip off the bandaid red. Pack up all his stuff, not just a little (get help - it is hard) and even see if your kids will help you redecorate or buy some 'new start' items for your home.

Just make sure he does not have the chance to talk you over.

Changing all my locks today.

Hubby called today and we had a long conversation which is what I expected since he is planning to be back by the 14th to get his stuff. He also told me he is going to pay part of the bills because he got his social security check yesterday. I totally did not expect that, I figured he would be telling me he could not pay anything because he had to get his car fixed.

He also told me that his daughter thinks he is wrong for treating me and the kids the way he has done and that she agrees with me on almost everything. She came to stay with us for a week while he was recovering from surgery and saw first hand what it was like. She kept asking me why I would put up with him.

His own DD saw him for what he is, wow. That should speak volumes.

What do you think about what his DD said?

Him "Saying" that he is going to be paying your bills with his SS check and ACTUALLY doing it are two entirely different things. Words vs. actions.

Can you file for a Separation agreement so that your State can order him to pay his legally responsible fair share of the bills AND Spousal Maintenance?

LTL

We don't have spousal support here that I know of, besides he is on disability and I don't think anybody will touch it. Plus, I started banking part of my salary when I became suspicious that he was up to something. I will be ok financially as long as I am careful with my money.

My grocery bill has already gone down substantially since he has been gone. I think my electric bill will go down too. He used to keep his game system and lights on in the den 24/7. He would also leave the exterior door open so he could have more sunlight in the winter when the furnace was running and in the summer when the AC was on.

I will be fine. I am continuing with counseling and I have started attending church again.

When his daughter was visiting, she and I got along great. I had been dreading her visit because he said that she never accepted any of his relationships. He said she still held a grudge because he had left her mother and did not want him to be happy.

His daughter told me that she had met a couple of the women he had dated prior to me and that she felt they deserved what they got from him (his treatment of them). But she didn't feel that I deserved it. At the time, I thought maybe she was trying to drive a wedge between us but the more time that I had to think about it...I believe she was sincere.

My hubby is staying with his son and his son's new girlfriend. When I spoke to hubby today he told me that he thinks that his son's girlfriend resents him being there. My thought is that she probably does, she had just moved in one week prior to my hubby's arrival.

My counselor asked me last night if there was anybody that I knew that was for our relationship or for my hubby. I sat there and thought for a minute and told her no. His son loves him and will always stand by him but I don't know if he will continue to jeopardize his relationship with his girlfriend for his dad.

Even if he does follow through and pay part of the bills...well good...he owes you much more than that. He could be trying to suck you in as well...see I gave you $xxx...as if that makes up for anything. Sorry but I wouldn't look at paying part of the bills as necessarily a good will gesture. Keep your guard up.


Sounds like the daughter has his number and it says a lot.

Oh, I'm so sorry. This is a difficult time.
I went through something similar and it was the most difficult time of my life. I remember smelling my wifes clothes she left behind, trying to find some lingering life left.

How pathetic. Even though you are holding your cards close, he must be getting a very strong whiff of strength from your direction - not to mention a very strong 'not welcome' signal where he is staying. Yet these little crumbs he has tossed your way are the best he can do. Cash he owes you and then some, and saying that someone else thinks he can do better. Not that he thinks that, mind.



Just think of what he is going to cost them too. He is like an old man of the sea - you must feel so much lighter!

It's probably best for her she experiences her boyfriend's lack of care sooner rather than later. It was foolish of her to move in at all if this is what she can expect - but as Dr H says a non married couple don't really owe each other anything and tend to make very short term, unworkable decisions.



This is something Dr H tells everyone to do -ask people in your circle what they think before committing to someone. They are bound to be more objective.



Why not? It wasn't his hard earned money.

I think your H is on the verge of disaster and he sees you as a nice little comfy back up plan when things go sour - which they will, fast. However he isn't someone who will change, not even when the need for change trips him up and smacks his head. If I were you I would file and cut off contact before he gets to the point where he starts harassing you to take him back into freeloading heaven.

Redheadedlady,

I can see the finish line for you. Don't lose focus, this man is a pro at what he does which is gaslighting after all he fooled you and you don't seem like a woman easily fooled.

Take the massage from his DD as a sign that you are heading in the right direction. He's son may try to convince you soon to take him back so he can get him out of his life. When that happens consider that a big sign you are heading the right direction.

Make sure he spend no time alone with you on the 14th. And I would make sure he knows that before he shows up so that he is prepared and so you can make sure you are prepared for him if you since he might become violent. You don't want to find that out on the day of. He can use his SS to pay for his room and board while he gets ready to head back to TX.

Life,

I will be fine, I still have the occasional weak moment but they are getting fewer as the days pass. I also have not cried in 3 days. Everytime I start to feel weepy, I remind myself of what the last few years have been like.

I have a plan in place. I am taking all of his stuff to a storage unit this weekend. My kids are very supportive and said they would be at the house when he starts back this way. My sons are all over 6' tall and they would not let anybody physically harm me. Plus, I am going to give our local sheriff's department a call to let them know what is happening.

Like I said, I will be fine.

Okay, I need some information. My hubby is coming back next week to get his belongings. I have heard through mutual friends that he intends to take some things that belong me.

I have 2 VW sandrails that he took to a place he used to work a couple of years ago telling me that he was going to fix them up. If anybody knows anything about assembled VWs, the ID numbers are not traditionally on the dash in a sandrail. I have a legal title in my name for one of them and I can produce a canceled check for the other one. My concern is that the place he used to work won't let me remove the cars because the people there are friends of his. Any advice?

I would call or go into the local police department for that city (where they are garaged) and see if an officer can go with you to retrieve them. Bring the title and canceled ck. If police will not go, file a police report that they have been stolen. Ask the police what your remedies you have.

I wouldn't even let your WH into your house or on your property.

He will not be coming to my home. The mortgage is in my name only and I have owned this place for 22 years. My son and I changed the locks and installed deadbolts on the house doors already. My boss came out today and installed a new steel door on my garage with new locks and a deadbolt.

Wow, he really does see you as his very own all you can eat buffet doesn't he? He's in for a shock, you've grown leaps and bounds in strength since you first showed up here. It's nice to meet you Red!



It's doubtful he's able to keep hold of a friend's good will for that long. I would also be in doubt as to a) whether he paid them for the work (because why do they still have them?) and b) whether he took them 'to get fixed' at all - he probably sold them and kept the cash without telling you.

I would call them up and ask them what the deal is. I wouldn't reveal anything about your separation, I'd just ask when you can come get your property that your H left with them. Then let them tell you what's happening. You may get a totally different version of events.

If it's as your H said, and they do get funny about your reclaiming the items, report them as stolen and show up with your proof of ownership and a police officer.

One of my friends told me that if I am concerned at all that he may hurt me or my kids, then I should just let him have whatever he wants. I don't agree.

She also said that our male mutual friend that said my hubby gave him permission to have sex with me, might be lying. That maybe he is just trying to get in my pants. I don't think so, this person has always been the perfect gentleman and he is very interested in my single friend.

I am just so hurt and offended by my hubby. I am also very angry. I am one of the nicest people that you would ever want to meet unless you cross me.

I had a wonderful day today. We had my youngest son's graduation party and had lots of family and friends show up. The laughter was contagious. My sister and I were telling so many stories about things we did while we were growing up and the kids couldn't stop laughing.

Yeah!

I got up today and went to a new church with my friend. I almost didn't go because I was tired from yesterday and not feeling well. But I started thinking that I want to get closer to God and my friend and I had decided to visit several local churches to find our church home...so, I got dressed and we went.

Then this afternoon my son and I went to another graduation party for a friend. We visited with the family and a good time.

My son called (the one that recently had my new grandson) and asked if I would like to babysit for a few hours while they went to a movie. I said I would love to. My grandson is such a little cutie and I love seeing him.

All in all, a pretty good day.

RedHeaded, You're amazing!!!

Redheaded,

You have such a great future ahead of you. You are a remarkable woman!

AM

That's great.
Church is an important part of my life and my three kids.

I kept questioning about how I could get closer to God, I prayed about it. I had 3 different people on separate occasions tell me to go to church...just out of the blue, we weren't even talking about religion. I thought God is talking, maybe I should listen.

I have always been amazed by the fact that when I have a worry or concern and I go to church, then almost invariably the sermon will speak to my problem.

Love this.



It's right to be wary of male motives during such a vulnerable time, but there's no real reason to think badly of this guy. Just keep high boundaries with every man while married and you'll be fine. What he's said isn't totally unbelievable. Does your friend appear to be in your H's corner?

All the grief emotions will present themselves in spite of his leaving being more of a gain than a loss. When we let go of a vision, you will grieve it. Eventually you will be totally indifferent.

I'm so glad to hear your life is happy.

I want everybody to understand that I do still love my husband. I also keep in mind how truly bad things have been between us for the last couple of years. I listen closely to everything he says when we talk.

He would tell me before he left that once he was in Texas that he would be better able to take care of his needs. He would blame me and my kids for all the stress he was under and for not being able to take care of his own needs (checking his blood sugar, eating correctly, etc),

Now he is blaming his circumstances there. He doesn't have enough time...even though he is still doing the same thing there that he did here...playing video games and watching movies all day. He says that his son's girlfriend resents him, that she wants to spend all her time with his son. That she is needy and resents any time that his son spends with him. That she purposely has his son go out with her just to keep his son away from him. He says that once he has his own place that he will be better able to take care of himself. Still blaming everything and everybody else for what he does.

He also received his social security check on the 3rd for over $1500 and 4 days later he was down to $400, he has never figured out how to manage money...he told me that once he was in Texas, that he would be better able to do that because he would be on his own.

He is still planning on coming back here sometime in a week or so...I guess he thinks he can move in here again for a month and have me pay his bills and buy his cigarettes...he is going to be very surprised when it does not happen. He hasn't even bothered to ask me, he just makes the assumption that he can continue to sponge off of me.

I keep hoping that someday he might wise up and get a clue as to what the constant is in all his complaints about everybody else...himself.

This post is an excellent description of a freeloader. It is good that you recognize these behaviors. Keep your resolve!

AM

Just had an hour long call from my husband. We talked about a lot of different things. He is still talking about problems with his son's girlfriend. How he does not feel responsible for the dirty dishes they leave because he did not eat out of them. I finally told him that I was going to say something that he probably would not agree with but I was going to say it anyway.

I said, "When you arrived there you did not have any money. They have bought you cigarettes, over-the-counter medicines, treated you to dinner, purchased groceries, and paid all the bills there. You have not contributed any money. They both work full time and you are home all day. In my opinion, you should be doing all the cleaning and cooking a couple of meals so they can eat when they come home instead of expecting them to cook for you. That is my opinion and I will never say anything about the subject again." He was quiet for a few seconds and then partially agreed with me. He loaned his son $100 the other day but his son has not given it back, so he thinks he has contributed money.

I also told him today that I will NOT be coming to Texas. He got quiet again and wanted to know why. I told him if things had been great between us then I would have been there in a heartbeat but that I did not want to spend the next 8 years of my life sitting beside him being ignored while he played video games. He said he understood.

He is also still talking about coming here next week and making comments about how much I have changed. I asked him what he meant, he said going to church, losing weight, etc. I said yes, I am getting the old me back again. I am spending time with my family, going to church, cleaning up my home, and making plans to sale my house and move closer to town. I also told him that I can now fit into my form-fitting blouses and that I look good.

He told me that he cannot wait to see me again and that he has missed me. He also said that he will love being in a relaxing environment again unlike where he is now.

I don't understand that since this is what he wanted...to be in Texas.

Somebody needs to give me a swift kick or something. Husband will be heading back here at the end of the week. I want to see him, I miss him, even though I know it is not in my best interest.

He called again last night and we talked for over an hour. I am still leery though of our conversations. I figured he would start calling more often when it got closer to time for him to come back this way. Quite frankly, he sounds a bit upset that I won't be going to Texas.

I've been following your thread RHL. Use the logical part of your brain right now. Stop spending so much time in conversations with him. He's seducing you back to where he can once again take advantage of you. You need to STOP.

He is upset. He is realizing that he will not be able to freeload from you any longer.

AM

Love is a very highly addictive and powerful drug that can destroy your entire life if you are not careful. Like every drug you have to stay away from the places they may exist.

You can not have conversations with him that is more personal then he would have with a cashier. Your only association you should have with him to arrange for him to get his stuff.

If you can I would have one of you sons handle him getting his stuff while you go shopping or something. Don't go through this pain again.

I believe you will make the right choices.

By the way did you pick up your cars yet?

I have not picked up my cars yet. I do not care for conflict if I can avoid it and I keep imagining a scene when I go to get them.

I am trying to post something positive on here on a daily basis. I worked today and while my job is stressful, I am very good at it. My employer has 5 businesses and I manage all of them. I do all the books, write estimates and invoices, and vette potential employees. And when my boss comes in grouchy, I look at him and tell him to go play golf. lol

My son and I have decided to go to a local restaurant every Tuesday for dinner...actually it was my son's suggestion. He knows that I love beef cabbage soup and it is their specialty on Tuesdays. I have such a wonderful, thoughtful son especially since he thinks cabbage soup smells like sweat socks.

Being positive is great and you should keep it up.

The reason I said have your son handle it, is not for physical safety reasons, but for your emotional safety. Anytime spent with him may prevent you from making sane decisions. Explain to your son what belongs to your husband and have him handle it. Block his calls don't contact him for at less 6 months so you can get out of the fog.

It's perfectly natural that you still love him. Like any drug you have to remove it and experience withdrawal before you can be free of it. However you are making good, logical decisions.



That's a great idea

I guess I'm surprised that the vets have not told you to be in Plan B. That is what I would do. I would not talk to him or have any contact with him. I would get an IM. I would get a list of conditions he must meet before he talks to you: a stable job, financial stability, etc. He would have to show my IM several months of paid bills and a true change. ( Which I sincerely doubt he will do.) Talking to him will let him mess with your mind. I just wouldn't. If he sincerely changes THEN and only THEN would I work on the marriage. Otherwise, just enjoy the wonderful person you are and the stronger person you are becoming.

RHL, what did he expect you to do? Give up your job, your home, your family to go down there and watch him lay on the couch all day and play video games? Or are you supposed to get a job so you can support him? I agree that he is the true freeloader. He is only in a relationship for what he can suck out of it. He is not there to give anything.

Where does he think he will stay when he comes for the visit?

You know we all have dominant leadership styles. If your dominant style is avoidance, you can appreciate this style has its place. For example, sometimes its a good idea to let something go or as they say "pick your battles."

The trouble with using your dominant style for nearly all situations is: your dominant style can get you into trouble too. For example, if your dominant style is avoidance and you constantly use it you'll find yourself dealing in crisis management mode a lot.

There are other leadership styles you can adopt and apply. Sometimes collaboration makes sense. Other times, being competitive is the way to go.

Today, you don't want to avoid. You do not want to collaborate. You actually need to compete. Compete as a style in this case means to confront and cut off the freeloading.

Help me out with what to say to my husband. I am going to talk to him tonight and let him know that he is not staying here if he comes back to Indiana.

I want him to understand that I was very hurt when he left and I don't want to put myself through the pain again. I also want to let him know that we might have a future together if he agrees to:

1) Anger management classes
2) Counseling
3) Stops criticizing me and my kids
4) Shower daily
5) Treat me with love and respect
6) Do the Marriage Builder program with me

And also, I have to see proof of all the above before we see each other again.

I welcome all suggestions.

Please re-read your very first post here. And you are considering taking him back?

AM

Only if he makes the required changes.

So he can still lay on the couch all day and play video games? If I am looking for a flop house I would readily agree to the above and just do enough to get by while I continued sponging off you.

From what you have posted here, it seems he is just looking for flophouses, not a marriage.

I would not allow him to return unless I saw noticeable improvement over the next year. Are you saying to not let him return under any circumstances?

I would not let him back unless he demonstrates to you over a long period of time that he is not using you as a flop house. I get the feeling that he is just looking for a new flop house.

Telling him if he wants to move back in with you, then he will have to purchase and go through the Marriage Builder Accountability Program which will cover your entire list and will give you a access to a coach that will let you know when it is ok to have him move back in. If he is not willing to do that then he is not willing to make the changes that is required. And that should make you next steps clear.

RHLady,

If you decide to follow Life4799's suggestion, you should make it clear to your husband that he should take the lead and not just follow along, doing the bare minimum. Then, take a step back, watch his actions and ignore what he says. He is a smooth talker and has gotten by with that for a long time.

AM

Yep, that is why I mentioned in my earlier post that one of your conditions should be for him to have a steady job and evidence of paying his bills by himself. I would require him to do this for a year before I allowed him to move back in. I might allow dating after 3 to 6 months IF he starts the marriage builder program with you and is the leader in that.

But I don't see any of this ever happening. He will just find an easier mark.

RHLady,

Do you have something positive to post from yesterday? I like your positive post about Tuesday. Do you have something good from yesterday?

AM

As a matter of fact, I do. I have 3 sisters (and a friend that has been anointed as our sister), but I am closest to the sister who is a year younger than me.

My mother was southern and she would say that my sister and I were like two worms all wrapped up together. She believed that no matter what happened between the two of us that we would always be close...and so far she has been correct.

I talked to my sister last night and asked her a question just to mess with her mind. It worked. Even when we had discussed the question, we re-visited the topic several times. There is always much laughter when I talk to my sister. One of the funny things is, that when we say "well, I better get off here", it doesn't mean a dang thing because we keep talking.

I love my seester.

That's great. I had two brothers who were quite a bit older than I. My parents spoiled me quite a bit, but I never had that "sisterhood" with anyone.

Did your husband call again last night? What do you think about the comments in the recent posts?

AM

AM

I understand everybody's concern for me. I am NOT going to just let him move back in with me until and unless I see noticeable changes on his part. I do agree that it is unlikely to happen.

I spoke to him only for a moment because he was on his way to dinner with his son and his son's girlfriend.

I would truly appreciate some comments about wording when I tell him that he is not staying with me when he comes back to get the rest of his stuff. I am not sure how he will react but I don't think he is going to be happy about it. I want him to understand that I do not want to put myself through the pain again when he leaves without him thinking that he can stay.

Help with wording please.

You could ask him which hotel he plans to stay in?

I spoke to him and he is not happy. I will share later.

You don't have to worry about his approval or his upset. You are lining yourself up with who you are and how you expect to be treated. A thoughtful caring person would show concern for you and how his behavior is affecting you.

I would use few words. Give him the bottom line. Own it. "I'm not happy. We can no longer live together and I cannot provide for you and allow you to use any of my resources. You will need to find other accommodations. If you would like to re-learn how to be in relationship with me going forward contact (IM) and he/she will give you my instructions."

I talked to Hubby this morning. He was telling me he would be heading back this weekend. I told him we needed to talk.

I proceeded to tell him that he could not stay at the house because I did not want to experience the devastation of seeing him leave again. He said so you don't want to see me. I told him that I love him and that yes I want to see him but that I can't put myself through the pain again.

I said I love you and I want a relationship with you but not the kind of relationship that we have had for the past couple of years. I said I am working on myself and trying to make positive changes. He said he was too.

I said what kind of changes. He said he was getting bored with his video games and had planned on leaving them in Texas when he came back. I said I hear what you are saying but you told me yesterday that you had spent the day watching movies and playing games. I said that there were things that I would like to see him do but I didn't know if he would be willing. He said is it something that I am physically capable of doing?

I said that I think so. He asked what? I said attend anger management classes, get individual counseling, take regular showers, treat me with care and respect, manage your money better, and do what you say you are going to do.

He feels like we could do those things better if we were together. I told him that if we were getting along much better that I would have went to Texas in a heartbeat. But that I didn't want to change locations and still have a bad relationship. He said that I was happiest when he was in control of our relationship in the early years and I was. But he also treated me with care and looked out for my best interest. He focused his attention on me and we did fun things together.

I told him that I was going to sell the house(it is my house) and use the equity to get a smaller place. He said that I was doing all these things without talking to him about it. I said that I talked to him before he left about selling the house, getting a smaller place that we both liked, and him going to Texas every few months to visit his family but he would not have it. I said you were the one who left me, I didn't want you to go, I didn't tell you to go.

He said you suggested that I go visit my kids. I said Yes, go visit your kids not move there. He said it was supposed to be just a visit but then he saw it as an opportunity. An opportunity to start over. I said an opportunity to start over without me.

I really thought this morning that we were starting to make some headway. I told him repeatedly that I wanted a relationship with him but different than what we had the last few years. He kept saying that I had a funny way of showing it since I didn't want to see him.

Then tonight was awful. First my tire blew while I was going 55mph and scared the heck out of me. Sounded like and explosion. It damaged my car slightly but my son changed it for me and we weren't hurt.

Then the next phone call with my hubby, he was mad.

My phone had died while I was out and he was upset about not being able to get in touch with me because he had called my cell phone 3 times and the house phone twice. I explained to him what happened and then he voiced concern about me and if I was alright. I said I was okay, that I was just scared when the tire blew and that my son would be over this weekend to change my tires.

I asked him about our morning phone call and what he remembered of it. He said that I don't want to see him again and that I don't want to see him until he moves all of his belongings back to Texas. I said that is not what I said. I said I love you and that I want a relationship with you. I do want to see you but I just can't do it right now because I don't want to go through the pain again. He said that I might have been thinking that I told him I wanted a relationship but this is the first time that he has heard me say it today.

Then things got a little vicious. He told me that his father would not be coming to help him because he did not want to get in the middle of things. he also does not want to take a chance with his vehicle towing another one and maybe have car trouble in the middle of no where.

He said he had to figure out how he was going to tow all the cars. I let him know that he was not taking the cars that I paid for and titled in my name. He said since you can't control me then you are going to stop me from taking my stuff. I said they are not yours. He said you told me I could have them when you bought them. I said no, I didn't. I thought we were going to be together forever and we would enjoy the cars a couple. I may have to sell them to make ends meet.

He said that if I tried to stop him from taking the cars that he would make me pay. He said he would tell his friend to put a mechanics lien on the cars since they had been sitting on his business lot for the last few years and if I was going to take them then I would have to pay for storage.

he said that he kind of figured I would pull something like this. I said babe I love you and I don't want to do anything to hurt you but I also can't hurt myself. I am telling you that I might have to sell my cars just to make ends meet and you sound like you want me to suffer.

I kept trying to go back to wanting our relationship to work and that I was willing to make changes but I couldn't do it by myself. I said I have told you that I want the relationship to work but you haven't told me if you want the relationship or not. He said he hadn't heard a question. I asked do you want a relationship with me. He said he didn't want a relationship with the woman I am today. he wants one with the woman he used to have. And granted I was happier then but he also treated me better.

He said that he had intended on coming back for an indefinite period because he missed me. I said why didn't you tell me that. I have heard you make all kinds of plans to come back and pack your stuff this month and then move everything next month. Never once have you said anything about coming back to stay.

He said scratch that. This morning my intention was to come back and stay but after that first phone call this morning when you said you didn't want to see me then my plans changed.

The way this last phone call went, I doubt he will call again or even try to have a relationship.

I have already tried to call the owner of the business where my cars are parked. I left him a message about what hubby is doing and to please not let him do this wrong thing.

Hubby also said that he doesn't need anger management classes. He said that he had been living in intolerable conditions for the last five years and that he had managed to maintain his cool except for when he beat on the garage with a 2x4. I told him that I disagree...you threatened to shoot my kids.

He said they threatened to whoop me. I disagreed with him again. I reminded him of a few months ago when I stepped outside into the midst of the start of an altercation when he told my son he was waiting to pop him like he had wanted to do for several years. And my son took a step towards him and I stopped my son.

He said that isn't what happened even though you have told that story to anybody who will believe you. He said even that argument was because of you.

I had a little kitten that was cold and shaking so I rushed into the house to get something to cover the kitten. My son thought hubby had done something to upset me. He asked hubby what did you say to mom. Hubby said I didn't do anything and it's none of your F'ing business anyway. I walk back outside and hubby says what did I say to you.

I said you didn't say anything. Hubby said, see I told you I didn't do anything. Then he stood there with his arms crossed while my son and his friends were packing for college. My son turned around and asked him what he was doing. According to my hubby he said you better get your son before I pop him and that my son cursed him.

Hubby also said anger management and counseling are all the same thing and he doesn't need it. He said that if I give up control of our relationship then we would both be happier.

I had a brief moment when I wondered if he might be correct. Then I remembered how viciously he turned on me this evening. And made everything my fault.

I really do wish he would work on our relationship with me but I don't think he really wants me. I thought this morning we were making progress but I think he was just a little stunned when I said he couldn't come here.

My heart hurts for what could have been good again with a lot of hard work.

I even told him this morning that I don't want to focus on all the conflicts that they had us doing in marriage therapy. I wanted to focus on the things that would make us happier with each other but according to him I never said that I wanted a relationship with him.

Such bullchit.

I even told him that while I am not ready to see him yet that I was considering going to Texas for the long July 4th weekend to see him. But since I will not bow down and let him have everything I have, he probably won't want to see me anyway. I plan on calling his parents tomorrow and let them know what is really going on. They like me and they were the ones that told him a few years ago that he better get a job or he might find himself peddling his little car down the road.

Should I give him the cars just to keep the peace, together they are only worth about $2000 until they are restored.

A few other things. He said he could not understand me not wanting to see him. He said that he would be happy to see me. I said I would be happy to see him too but it would be too painful watching him leave again. He said when I was a truckdriver, I would spend a few days with you and we were very happy but then I would have to leave but you still wanted me to come back. Now you say that you do not want to see me. But I would be the one getting hurt, not him.

I would love to see him, be wrapped up in his arms, and have some amazing love making...but I don't trust my emotions right now.

He also said that I got upset because he left me one time but that he got upset when I left everyday. I told him I had to go to work in order to pay the bills. He said it still hurt everyday when I walked out the door.

btw... I leave for work at 6:25am and he would sleep until 11 or 12, then I was home at 3:30.

He used to tell me that the only reason that I sat with him in the den in the evenings was so I could smoke...so I quit smoking.

Then I noticed that I was spending too much time playing Bubble Witch game on my laptop while sitting next to him and him playing video games...so, I quit.

I would sit next to him for hours with very little interaction because he did not like being bothered when he was playing his game.

Now he tells me that he is bored with his games.

I never ever in my wildest nightmares thought our relationship would end like this. He was my knight in shining armor when we first met. So handsome, gentle, loving...I can't help but feel that it is my fault that he has changed so much.

I have went days without crying and here I go again.

Your fogging up. Your giving him too much information and he's gaslighting you with it. Go get your cars. Stop avoiding.

Yes, you see what talking to him does to you. He is an experienced freeloader who manipulates by anger and gaslighting. There is no way you should let this man back into your life. He will make you miserable.

Can one of your sons help you get the cars? If the owner attempts to stop you, call the police, show them the titles/registrations and have them go with you to retrieve the cars.
Do they run or will they have to be towed?

He didn't actually change. You didn't change him. This is how he really acts, pretending until he gets what he wants, as Melody said, a place to flop, play his games and have someone feed and clothe him and have sex with him. He is a freeloader!

AM

He should write a book on being an expert freeloader and how to be skillfully gaslight but that would take to much work.

Unless the shop has a repair order that you have signed by you, stating that you will be charged a storage fee he can not get a mechanic lean on your cars, and a mechanic lean does not stop you from taking possession of you cars. I would get the police involved today before his friend hides the cars.

Telling him that because you are not in a better place with him is why you did not move to TX is not true. If you were in a better place you guys wouldn't be moving to TX right away because moving to TX right now doesn't consider both of your needs. If you guys were in a better place both of your needs would be equally considered.

It's amazing how he is calling your behavior independent and he doesn't see his as independent. I guess he feels that his job is to make all the decisions and your job is to follow all his decisions. If you would like to blame yourself, you should blame yourself for letting him believe that is ok.

It's ok for him to make all the decisions as long as all the decisions he make are with your enthusiastic agreement. Even God doesn't lead us without our enthusiastic agreement, how could he think that he has any more rights then God.

By the way have you been listening to the MB Radio show on a daily bases?

armymama- I have called the police this morning and they say it is a civil matter, I also called the place where the cars are at. Unfortunately, the owner is out for today but will be there tomorrow. I know the employee that I was speaking to though, I explained to him what was going on. He told me that if I have the title that they belong to me and if owner approves, they will help me load them on a trailer. They have to be trailered because they are restoration projects.

"I guess he feels that his job is to make all the decisions and your job is to follow all his decisions."

That is exactly what he thinks. He thinks that if I let him take charge of our relationship that I would be much happier. I was happy when he was in charge at one time but he treated me much better.

Good for you! Get the cars back! ASAP.

He said that everytime he tries to change something about himself to suit me that I try to make him miserable or that it is never enough.

Remember this as his theme song:

"Papa was a rolling stone, my son.
Wherever he laid his hat was his home.
(And when he died) All he left us was alone."

This is a gaslighter quote you know.

Ouch!!!!

I think it is time for you to get your plan B in place and stop talking to him.
Get you IM (intermediary)
Send him a plan b letter ( which outlines how to get you back)
Make sure there are no ways he can see or speak to you until he fulfills your letter.
Do you know how to plan B?

At this point, continued contact is confusing you and hurting you greatly.

If he really wants you- he won't let plan b stop him- he will do whatever it takes to win you back.

Please do it now for your own health!
Hugs

You asked him for teeny tiny conditions. Proof he will keep his temper, basic manners and personal hygiene. The sort of things you require from a waiter who is going to be in your life for ten minutes.

A husband has to be willing to show EXTRAORDINARY care. Dealing with whatever problems may occur to you on a daily basis. Not just these very basic requirments. This guy won't even pick up a bar of soap.

(Except he must have during the golden courtship lets-trick-her period right? He CAN look after himself and you - he just chooses not to. He chooses to act like you aren't worth it.)


The vets response was that he would agree to basic frequirements so as to keep his flop-pad. However this guy is SO lazy and uncaring that he won't even meet these very, very basic rules of humanhood. Your requirements should have actually been much higher. You most certainly should not have been calling him love and babe and trying to persuade your case while he was being so vile. That will only encourage him to gaslight harder.

I'd stop communicating with him. He is making it very clear that unless he can bully and gaslight you back in to accepting a freeloader he isn't interested in being anything else to you.

You didn't change him. He didn't change at all. He did this to his daughter's mother long before you were around.

He can't be changed.




That is the most insulting thing I have ever heard said to a wife on these forums. Are you willing to have a drifter come by your home for freeloading for INDEFINITE periods???!!!!


You're much stronger when you don't speak to him. In your shoes I would put into place no contact, change your email and phone number and put an IM in place. Send him a letter with your requirements for being married to him. He can tell the IM when he is ready to implement them. However I predict you won't hear from im again.

Someone in your shoes should keep him out of the house for a long time while he demonstrates change and that's too much work for a drifter.

I tell you to get an IM because his talks with you are so abusive and take such a toll. You were feeling much better before he started these verbal attacks, weren't you?

He actually brought his daughter's mother up last night. He said maybe I will remember what he told me about her. He said everyday he would get up for work and she would start in on him...arguing, criticizing, complaining about not having enough money for bills. Then she would be content the rest of the day while he carried the arguments around in his mind all day.

He said that is why he left...that he got tired of her bullchit. He said that we had been having some great conversations but I wiped that all out by threatening to keep his stuff (my cars). He said that I see the negative in everything.

He said that when he started calling me more frequently in the last few days that instead of understanding that he misses me...he said I put a negative spin on it by assuming that he was doing it to charm me because he was getting closer to coming back.

AND HE NEVER DID JACK ABOUT IT.

See what a great husband he was in his first marriage? That's a clue as to why it failed.


I doubt she was really content, or the issues would not have kept coming up.


It wasn't bs, though. Complaints in marriage are very important and should be taken very seriously, welcomed, and acted upon. Joyce Harley complains frequently to Dr. Harley. My wife complains frequently to me. The complaints should be made without demands, disrespectful judgments, or angry outbursts - but they must be made!

The big problem is that he didn't want to lift a finger to do anything about her complaints. People get married to make each other happy - he didn't want to do that.

Your H freeloading 'plan of attack' looks something like this:

1. Find a nice lady who is either forgiving, low hanging fruit or going through a tragedy I can take advantage of. This is so I can be the boss and ignore all her complaints further on.

2. Put on the woman pleasing persona. Charm and romance her. Tell her I am making all the decisions, but actually, I am careful to only make decisions she approves of. This is so I can be the boss and ignore her further on.

3. Stress the success of the charm-attack phase in which I made woman pleasing decisions. Ask her if she enjoyed me being the boss. This is so I can be the boss and ignore her further on.

4. Start to ignore her and please myself. I will make life very difficult for her if she complains. I will describe it as 'negative'.

5. Remind her how happy we are when I am in charge. For good measure, I tell her about the previous negative harpy who I abandoned. Doesn't she think she can do better?

6. Blame everyone else. Find fault with everything. No one is treating you like you are the boss and they must be made to realise that IS A VERY BAD IDEA.

7. It seems family members are not bending to my will no matter how much of a jerk I'm being. Let's see if a touch of abandonment makes them crack. Let's not forget the goal is that I can be the boss and ignore her further on.

8. Leave. Keep one ear cocked for desperate tears and pleadings. A desperate woman might consent to a bad man rather than no man.

9. Perturbingly, the woman is pleased to not be subjected to daily abuse. She is now saying she needs me to clean up my act and behave like she matters. This cannot continue. Remind her of steps 3 and 5.

10. If you break her spirit, return to the time when you were happiest - stage 4. She will never see stage 2 again- she had her free trial period! If she gets wise to you, find another mark and start again at stage 1.

Negative is the very, very favourite word of neglectful jerks.

What on earth does that have to do with you?

This is a classic gaslighting tactic. My XH picked a really silly fight with his brother, and never spoke to him again, breaking his younger brothers heart. From that day forward, whenever anyone was upset with my H he would threaten them with the same treatment. He told both me and his mother that he had 'proved he was capable' and that if we persisted with our complaints - we'd be dead to him.

It was a very effective technique. He was essentially able to ignore the feelings of others and do whatever he pleased.

Have you read the thread on gaslighting?

How do I find the thread on gaslighting?

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1954175&page=3

Here you go. One of the classic gas lighting techniques is "I didn't say that" or "I didn't hear that" - your H has used both of these recently. This to remove all power from you. He will only remember the parts of conversations that serve him, your memory will be dismissed as useless. It used to drive me absolutely nuts when my XH did this. I used to think we must both have really bad memories since we could never agree on what had been said. I honestly thought about recording our conversations to settle later arguments.

If I had, he just would have moved the goalposts and called me a name or described me as 'looking for faults' for needing a recording. The fact I probably would have remembered the recording correctly wouldn't have mattered in his rage.

I'm confident in my character and memory and appeal these days. Not so much, then.

I've been in a relationship for a year and a half with a normal non gaslighty man and we've never once had a disagreement about 'what was said'. We both have perfect recall, because he isn't trying to play me. It's not normal to constantly have someone pick at you like that.

Red please don't do this until you are sorted out with this man. That means either divorced or 100% fully recovered.

The house is yours because you owned it before the marriage. He has some claim to it if you get divorced in that marital time and money was used for its upkeep during the marriage (which includes this time whilst you are separated). A judge however, would never force the sale of the house over such a short marriage.

However, if you sell the house and buy another during the time the two of you are married, it will become a marital asset and he could get 50% of the new house. Not only that, but he will certainly be awarded a chunk of the net cash from the old house.

This is true whether you are in a community property state or not. The rule is that premarital assets must have been always segregated and must remain segregated.

You might want to consult a lawyer, I am worried that even if you do not sell the house, you may find yourself having to give this man money if you divorce him.

A complaint is an opportunity for improvement in a good marriage and an irritation in a bad marriage. If she was complaining every day, that is a sign he never addressed and resolved her issues. He is what Harley calls a relationship freeloader:

Freeloader is unwilling to put much effort into the care of his or her partner in a romantic relationship. He or she does only what comes naturally and expects only what comes naturally. It's like a person who tries to live in a house without paying rent or doing anything to improve it unless the person is in the mood to do so.

Renter is willing to provide limited care as long as it's in his or her best interest. The romantic relationship is considered tentative, so the care is viewed as short-term. It's like a person who rents a house and is willing to stay as long as the conditions seem fair, or until he or she finds something better. The person is willing to pay reasonable rent and keep the house clean but is not willing to make repairs or improvements. It's the landlord's job to keep the place attractive enough for the renter to stay and continue paying rent.

Buyer is willing to demonstrate an extraordinary sense of care by making permanent changes in his or her own behavior and lifestyle to make the romantic relationship mutually fulfilling. Solutions to problems are long-term solutions and must work well for both partners because the romantic relationship is viewed as exclusive and permanent. It's like a person who buys a house for life with a willingness to make repairs that accommodate changing needs, painting the walls, installing new carper, replacing the roof, and even doing some remodeling so that it can be comfortable and useful.

Lady,

Are you doing ok?

AM

No, I'm not. I know that everybody on here thinks it is a terrible idea but I want a relationship with my husband. I miss him terribly.

I am not in a fog, I am thinking clearer than I ever have. I will continue to be guarded and I will continue to work on improving myself and also figure out what I want. But I will also continue to do what I can on my end to restore our relationship.

I know that my husband needs to make some changes and so do I. I will encourage him to do that but I cannot control what he will ultimately do. But for my peace of mind, I have to do this my way.

I know that most of you, if not all of you will not agree with me. I would still like to come here and post. But if you would like me not to, then I will abide by your wishes.

RH, you're peace of mind of course is important. What does doing this your way mean? I think the folks here can help you reason through a plan that keeps you protected and ensures that the marriage you are working to reconcile is one that is healthy for you and your family too.

"Doing it my way" means that I will continue to talk to him whenever we both want to talk. I will continue to make the conversations as fun, interesting, and informative as possible.

I have been telling family and friends too much of our business. I decided that had to stop because if we do reconcile, then they will mostly remember the bad things.

I am going to reduce the clutter around the house and have my adult children remove things that they have been storing at my house for a very, long time. This was a source of irritation for my husband.

And last but not least, I fully intend to see him in person sometime in the next 3 weeks. I intend to visit him in Texas if he wants to see me.

I really like the idea of clearing the house, because whether you live there or sell it, that will be a huge benefit to you. And it gives your kids the opportunity to become more autonomous, a win-win

Please keep us posted

Being in the fog and being in love are essentially the same thing. We are all in the fog when it comes to the people we love. It is important to understand this, because as long as you are in love with your husband, it is impossible for you to make completely objective choices. You need to appreciate the nature of this bias and not fool yourself into thinking that your decisions are all 100% rational.

I understand what you are saying Mr. Eureka and I know that I am prone to make emotional decisions.

I also know that I am not willing to allow him back into my home until I see changes over a length of time.

I want to see him and I know that he might use the fact that I would not allow him to come home to stay while he got the rest of his belongings as a reason for me to not come and see him.

Something along the lines of "If you weren't prepared to see me because you did not want to experience the pain of me leaving again, then why would you want to see me now."

My response would probably be that I wouldn't have to see him walk away from me if I was there for a visit.

I asked hubby about coming to see him. He said I should rethink that it has not even been a week since I didn't want him to come here. I responded with I would not have to see him walk away.

During our conversation he was talking about missing me. I told him the ball is in his court. He said after he gets his own place because his kids are upset about how he was treated by my kids.

He also said that his daughter had called his son while he was still in Indiana and demanded that he come and get my hubby because she was concerned about him. She didn't think my hubby was lucid. He also said that they are still coming to grips with the fact that he is old and not as physically able to get around as he used to be.

Are they people who overreact and judge little things as major? Or are they reasonable people who are not blinded by the fog of romantic love?

Who are more objective than you are.

I'm not saying your plan to do it your way is unworkable. Freeloaders can choose to try harder. You must realise it's out of your control though. Only he can do it, and he never has. He has abandoned every woman for easier pickings.

If I was planning to get my H to do such a huge personality makeover, I'd seek Dr H's advice on the way to go about it.

My fear is your bar is still too low. You're not willing to cut him loose and he will smell that.

You should consider writing to the radio show. I've done this twice, and it is painless. Write to mbradio@marriagebuilders.com and explain your problem. Remember to include your phone number and address. Not only can you get free help from Dr. Harley directly, but you will get a complementary book that addresses your situation.

I would not even know where to start in explaining my situation Dr. H.

I just got off the phone with my mother-in-law. She said her and her husband had only seen my hubby once since he had been in Texas.

She also finally said he treats you like chit. I told her I was surprised to hear her say that because he was usually on his best behavior in front of them. She said if that is his best behavior then it is no wonder the kids hate him and that frankly she was surprised that one of my kids had not whooped him for how he treats me.

It shocked me because I didn't know she had ever seen anything. She said there had been a running joke in the family in regards to my hubby for years...that he never has a relationship that lasts longer than 7 years.

She said she does not know how he gets women. She said her best advice to me was to forget about him because he will never change. She also said do I want to hurt for a little while or the rest of my life.

She said if I come to Texas that he will manage to take all my money again and ruin my relationship with my kids. She said that she knows I care about him but sometimes you just need to let someone go.

She said I know this is not what you want to hear.

I told her I appreciate what she had to say because I know she loves him and that she knows both of us. I told her that everybody here hates him and only hears my side of the story so I felt she was unbiased.

She said she didn't know if she was unbiased because she does not like how he treats me and the kids. She also asked if I could blame my kids for hating him...just the things he does to you is enough to make the kids mad.

Just stick to the main points and your main concerns when emailing the show; try not to make it terribly long.

I've heard on the radio show that Joyce will read through the email and then give it to Dr. Harley with her notes. If you send your phone number, you might be able to have a discussion with him on the radio. They seem to make it very easy for people to do that, since they are such great conversationalists.

Getting Dr. Harley's perspective on your situation would be very helpful.

There is no need to overthink this. Joyce Harley will call you and clarify the questions in advance, and if you refer them to this thread, they can review it, too.

I just sent an email to Dr. Harley. How long does it usually take to know if he will respond?

Usually within 24 hours. Sometimes a little longer, it hard to say.

The Harleys answer every email they receive, so you will hear from them. If you don't hear back in a few days, notify the moderators. They can check and make sure the message was received. Just hit the "Notify" button at the bottom of the message window.

Oh, Dear Lady, I am so glad that you did this. Dr. Harley is so insightful and to the point.

I am glad you had that conversation with your MIL. She seems to have a good grasp about her son's behavior. I am certain she loves him, but is not proud of the man he is.

AM

I emailed Dr. H from my personal email account, should I have done it on here?

Sending from your personal email account is the right way to do it.

Let us know what Dr. Harley has to say.

I just received a call from Joyce Harley. I will be on the program tomorrow. I was surprised to get a call, I expected an email response.

That's great! We will be listening for it.

If you don't already have it, download the MBRadio app on your smartphone. It is free, and it will let you listen to the program more carefully afterwards. When you are on the program, it is hard to absorb the advice fully in a single hearing. If you don't have a smartphone, you can replay to show on your computer, as well, by following the link on the home page at www.marriagebuilders.com.

Please come back here and tell us what your thoughts are on what they advise.

My dear MiL said much the same to me. She loved her son so much it hurt her greatly for me to allow him to be a bad H. She told me he would never change and I should suffer some pain short term for long term happiness. She was one of the ones who helped free me from my sad love and I've never been sad since.

The way your H treats you would be obvious to anyone with eyes. He abandoned you to go to Texas on a fools errand and that's the nicest thing he's ever done for you. There is no mistaking a good H and no mistaking a bad one.

It's also not 'your side'. Your complaints are based on facts. He has neglected you, insulted you and threatened you and yours. Those are facts. They aren't daydreams you have or opinions, which don't matter just because he pretends to be better than he is.

You need a husband who doesn't need to be on 'best behaviour' because his behaviour is already good. One who doesn't pretend to be romantic short term to get women hooked because he is romantic for real. One who you can tell the world the truth about, because he doesn't give you cause for complaint.

You could hide his wrong doings and become a pretender like he is. But I doubt anyone would be fooled. Particularly not when he hits the road again to show who's boss.

If he comes back, it has to be as a different man. Personally I think it would be easier to just get an actual different man than embark on redeeming someone who never had it, and doesn't want it.

Do I need to do anything to prepare for my phone call with the Harleys tomorrow?

Unless they asked you to do something, just be available for the call. Dr. Harley often calls you about 5 to 10 minutes early and talks to you privately about your situation before the show actually starts.

Just relax and they will guide you. The advice they give is invaluable, and it is a very worthwhile experience.

Good luck for the show. The Harleys are really nice and will take care of you.

Yep, the Harleys agreed with me.. YOU NEED TO GO TO PLAN B and get an IM!!!!!!! I would make sure he doesn't even know how to find you!! Change your phone numbers, e-mail, etc. END IT!!! Get your boys' input.

Walk me through what I need to do please. Help me!!!

Ok, Dr. Harley said not to write him a letter but somehow you have to let him know what you are about to do. You need to chose an IM. It needs to be someone who can stay calm and follow the rules. They will not let you know ANYTHING this guy says. Period. No matter how he begs or how "urgent" the matter is. Somehow the IM must send him a short letter saying you are breaking off all contact. You can find your property at this location. She will be filing for a divorce. You will not be able to contact her but will have to send things to me. I would suggest moving somewhere else at least for a time, so he doesn't show up unannounced. I am also a little worried about violence as well.

Then you put move somewhere else temporarily. You file for divorce. You put his stuff in storage. You talk to your sister like you said on the show if you are feeling weak. You join a church and maybe join a ladies bible study or some other LADY only activity. ( You are too vulnerable right now for a co-ed with single men activity.) Find stuff that you enjoy doing for you. Enjoy time with your sons.

Dr. Harley strongly advised you not to let this man back into your home, even if he ever returns with a repentant, with hat in hand. Even if he goes through anger management treatment, wait a while before taking him back.

He suggested that you gather his belongings and move them to a storage unit.

Find a good IM, someone who will pass only relevant messages about finances between you. She would filter out "spam" from your H. Have the IM or someone else give him the key to the unit. The IM will tell him that the relationship is over.

Invite your sons to listen to the show with you and ask them what they think you all should do as a family, in light of the fact that this man has threatened to kill you.

To help you through withdrawal from him: get a good friend - you said your sister will help you - who will support you throughout the ordeal of withdrawal. She would be someone you can call day or night when you are feeling weak. This support person, your sister, should listen to the show, too.

Institute any extraordinary precautions you and your sister can think of to keep from contacting your H. The challenge for now will be your loneliness.

Don't reach out to him in any way, even by writing a letter, because this will make you feel worse.

What was very clear to listeners of the radio program was just how dangerous your husband is. So why would you want to be with him? The answer is that you are in a the fog caused by your addiction to this man. Please accept this as a fact and reach out to the people around you who can think clearly for you. Separating yourself from this man is not going to be easy, but it is the only way out in this situation.

RHLady,

I just listened to the radio show. You did a good job telling your story. Have you had the chance to listen to the show this afternoon?

Dr. and Mrs Harley made plenty of sense to me. Are you going to follow though with their recommendations? Will your sister be helping you?

Please remember that in addition to your family that we are here for you.

AM

Please read this and heed Dr. Harley's advice.

How to Plan B Correctly

Except you won't be writing him a Plan B Letter.

What did you think of their advice?

I did listen to the show, one of my sons has already listened to it, and my sister is listening tonight. I will follow through but it is not going to be easy for me. He really is like an addiction to me...and I hate that about myself.

Why? None of us are any different. Everybody is addicted to whomever they are in love with. The problem is not you, it is him.

Just think of it like quitting smoking. At first it is holy hell but you miss it less and less every day. After a couple of months you feel better than you have in AGES. That is what will happen to you.

I thought I was on my way...I felt more in control of my life when I changed the locks, packed his stuff, spending time with my family...then I started missing him again. I feel foolish, especially at my age. I sure did not expect to be going through something like this at 56.

Don't feel badly about yourself. You have many positives in your life. You are a loving, caring person. As Mr Eureka said, the problem is your husband, not you. And as Mel said, you will feel better.

What was your son's reaction?

AM

56? ... Many, MANY great times ahead for you, RHLady!

We all see your underlying strength. You have it in you to build a much better life for yourself. And it will not be one dependent on a dangerous louse like your husband is.

One foot in front of the other RHL... You can do this....

Do not worry about how you will feel next hour, tomorrow. Just follow the plan.

You have excellent support in your family, and your MB family.

You can do this.

But it isn't permanent - the first few weeks of No Contact will suck and then it will just get better and better. Red, we have ALL gone through this. At one stage when I first went NC with my H I thought I would have to tie myself to a chair to prevent myself from calling him. I was in pieces crying. I was absolutely on the floor, not caring about the logic, just wanting to hear his voice. That was AFTER he'd had an A with one of my best friends! I never thought that would be me. Now I don't even give him a second thought.

Every human being is addicted once they have built a love bank for another. Your H may have built one under false pretences, but to your neural system, until you have gone through withdrawal, it is just as real as if he was really the great guy he pretended be. No one, of any age, is above feeling the pain of a lovebank withdrawal.

RHLady,

Are you there? Doing ok today?

AM

Here is your show.
Radio Clip of redheadedlady

I am away for the weekend registering my son for college. I will have limited computer time.

It has been one long exhausting weekend. I love the college my son picked but I will still worry about him when he leaves in the fall.

We had a good time this weekend...even when we got a little lost a couple of times. He wanted to eat at a particular restaurant and we drove all over creation before we found it. We are both tired though.

I am currently trying to work up enough energy to go to my niece's graduation party.

Is energy a problem? How is eating and sleeping?

Still having some issues with appetite and sleeping. I went to a domestic abuse counseling group today.

RHLady,

Did you make it to the graduation party?

I can't recall. Are you taking anti-depressants? They can be a great help during the upheaval of these changes.

AM

I did not attend the graduation party. My son and I had been out of town at his college orientation and it took us 4 hours to get home, that is why I was tired.

I am on ADs.

RHLady,

Are you seeing/talking to your husband? Is that why you have been absent from the forum?

AM

Yes I am still talking to him and it is part of the reason that I have been absent. I have started domestic abuse counseling through a local shelter and they are helping me.

The major reason that I have been absent is that I have a crisis in my family I am trying to deal with...actually two.

Sorry but no one is buying that. It's no good an alcoholic continuing to drink just so long as they go to an odd meeting. The shelter will want to help you, but they can't if you won't help yourself.

You have to treat your love for him as an addiction. Block out contact because you can't handle it. You will experience some weeks of great pain in withdrawal - but at least you will start to feel better soon. The current contact means every time you are in contact with him you feel less energy, less hope, less life. You're turning into a shadow.




Again, they can't help you if you won't help yourself. It's no good taking pain medicine while volunteering for more pain.

You've decided to be a victim, which is your choice but my heart is frozen with pity for your children who have already lost their father.

Now they have front row seats to watch you get worn down by a dangerous and abusive man. It's only a matter of time before he has access to you physically and he isn't safe.

I am extremely worried about you and I don't know you. If I loved you I would be distracted.



Then you and your family don't have time for the walking-train-wreck-meets-a-greek-tragedy that is your H. Actually I preferred Dr H's description of him: "Monster".

Yes, what Indie said.

When I asked my doctor for anti-depressants, he said my problem was like someone who had a car parked on their foot and wanted something to take away the pain of the car being parked on the foot. He gave me the ADs, but his comments were not lost on me or my husband.

Has your husband gone back to Texas or is he in your local area? Did you let him move back in?

AM

He is in Texas and I have told him he is not welcome here.

reedheadedlady, are you ok?

RHLady,

I hope the crises in your family work out soon. Please remember that we care about you and are here for you.

AM

OK, great. So what is the purpose of contact? Are you looking at closing off means of communication?

I have had a long stressful week.

My 29 year old son went to a party last week with people he did not know. He either took or was given some kind of drugs and was having paranoid delusions. He thought people were chasing him.

I took him to the hospital. His blood pressure was 178/108 and his heart rate was 158. He tested positive for marijuana and amphetamines. They gave him 3 doses of Ativan to calm him down but he was delusional for 3 days.

I took off work for a couple of days to be with him at home. It was a very scary time.

Then my 2 year old grandson's mother (she id not my child) had an emergency hearing with Child Protective Services (CPS) on Monday. CPS called me twice because I am the relative placement if anything happens with my grandson. I had custody of him for a short time last year before they returned him to his mother.

The mother keeps disappearing with my grandson. The hearing was to get her contact info. She didn't show up for court but the judge talked to her on the phone. They got her contact info and the judge made arrangements for CPS to visit where she is staying. The judge also told her that if anything else happened that she may remove my grandson from her custody.

My grandson's mother had to go to the ER on Tuesday. She texted me from the ER and told me that her mother had kicked her and my grandson out and she had nowhere to go. I took her to a hotel for the night and took her to a homeless shelter the next day.

I cannot have her in my home because it jeopardizes my standing as relative placement for my grandson.

We live in a small town and I already had information about the shelter. It is a wonderful place. They help the tenants find jobs, apartments, childcare, and they provide transportation for free. I went in and looked the place over and talked to the staff before taking my grandson and his mother there.

It is the first time in a long time that I have felt like my grandson is safe. I have also went back and took them things that they need and showed them around town. I spent several hours with them yesterday.

I went to a cookout yesterday evening but left early because I was not feeling well. Around 11:30 last night I started having horrible chest pain and had my son call an ambulance. It was so bad I was screaming. Then I vomited all over the place and the pain subsided.

The ambulance crew checked me out, said all my vitals were good and I refused transport to the hospital. I went to bed about an hour later after apologizing to my son for scaring him so much. I slept for 12 hours. I have been thoroughly exhausted this week.

My son asked me earlier this week if I would take him to the drive-in this weekend and that is what our plans are for tonight.

My daughter is coming in from Ohio to spend the night with me tomorrow. It seems that I am going to have a full weekend.

My other daughter from Florida will be here next week to finish preparations for her wedding in August. I will get to spend three weeks with her before her wedding. I have a feeling that we will be going non-stop.

Busy life.

I'm sorry you've had such a tough week. Please consider taking care of yourself! You can't do much for other people if your health is shaky. Chest pains are no joke. It's worrying you refused treatment and that you got right back on that treadmill. Your daughter's wedding won't be very special if your health collapses.

I've had chest pain in the past few months. I have had an echocardiogram, stress test, ekg within the past 6 months and they all checked out fine. I believe that I have just had a very long stressful exhausting week.

Stress? Well that much is obvious. It's just I don't see how a problem which has plagued you for months was caused during the past week.

However you are a smart woman and are certain to figure it out. I don't think my advice is going to be of any help to an intelligent woman with the best medical advice and the counsel of Dr H available to her so I get off here. However you will remain in my thoughts.

I however do hope you keep someone close to you at the very least in case of another attack.

Yes, that is a lot of stress for anyone. Please take care of yourself. You have a lot going on in your life.

AM

RL, I am very concerned, that you have not checked yourself into the hospital with those severe complaints. Women have other symptoms than men when having a heart attack and vomiting in combination with chest pain, would be a typical constellation. If your echocardiagrams and you ecg's have come back normal, that does not in any way rule out the possibility that your chest pain comes from cardiac ischemia. Neither does having normal vital signs.

If you would have gone to the hospital they could have done additional tests. Your grandson depends on you. You can help nobody if you are dead.

Of yourse it could also be the stress, but if you are not sure, you should rather err on the safe side.

Red, how are you doing?

I need advice. My husband is coming back to Indiana on Thursday to get his belongings. I have placed them in a storage unit.

He called and asked me what the sleeping arrangements were going to be because he was coming back with his daughter and his daughter's lesbian girlfriend. I told him that they are not staying in my home...none of them. I have told him this every month.

He told me that he had checked his legal sources and that he is allowed to come and go as he likes because his driver license still has my home address on it...even though he abandoned me almost 3 months ago. He is not on my mortgage...my deceased husband and I purchased this house 22 years ago.

He wants to come through the house to make sure that I did not miss packing his belongings...I told him no. He then started nitpicking... wanting to know if I packed his little spatula that he purchased a few months ago and his egg skillet.

Is he right, do I have to let him in? I changed my locks 2 months ago, he is not on my mortgage, his belongings are in storage, and he has not paid any bills since May.

Don't do anything. If he calls the police, they won't let him in.

No you do not have to let him in. I would be more proactive given your H's threatening nature. Call the police TODAY and tell them you are concerned that your H will try to get into your house and that he has a history of unstable behavior. Tell them he has threatened bodily harm to your children. Tell them he moved out of state months ago and that his belongings are not even in your house anymore.

Whoever you speak to, make sure you get the officer's name. You might even ask them if they would call H NOW and tell him that if shows up at your house they will be called. Depending on your police department they may be willing to make the phone call so just ask. Ask them if it would be considered trepass.

I would not wait until Thursday for him to show up. Plan ahead to avoid any craziness as much as possible.

great suggestions from blackraven!!

I called the sheriff last week and told them the details (unfortunately I did not get his name). He told me that they would not get involved because this is a civil matter unless he shows up at my place in a threatening manner.

Gotcha...well at least they have a head's up should you need call them. Are you going to be home Thursday or will you be at work?

Have you considered calling his daughter and telling her that his belongings are not at the house but are in storage...and that the police will be called if they show up. Don't tip your hand by mentioning "in a threatening manner" though. She may want to avoid any drama too.

Is this the same daughter that told you H treated you poorly and basically thinks he is a jerk?

It is the same daughter but he has been spending a lot of money on her lately. They are going to be staying in a neighbor's garage that lives 3 houses down from me.

According to my husband, his kids don't appreciate the way the I let my kids treat him and I am no longer welcome or appreciated in their life.

I will be at work on Thursday, they will not be in town until late that evening. I am going to work from home on Friday and they are leaving on Sunday. Their timeline is pretty set because the daughter's friend had to get permission to leave the state because she was in trouble for drugs.

I did inform my neighbor of the facts and they are leery about having them stay even in their garage.

My husband and this neighbor were good friends but I have filled this friend on what was happening in my home because he did not have a clue...he was only hearing what my husband had to say.

My husband told me yesterday that this neighbor is more my friend than his. Apparently he had a conversation with this friend yesterday and my husband said the friend feels like my husband is the "bad guy" in all this and that he was wrong for how he treated me and my kids.

So what is your plan if he shows up?

Red I would change your number and contact details. Until you do you are going to continue to field stupid calls about spatulas and the like. It would also send a strong message that you don't care about his threats and don't need to hear any more.

If he's so sure he's got legal rights he can engage a lawyer and get it done right. Badegering you achieves nothing and just shows that he's got nothing up his sleeve except a plan to wear you down.

I'd take BR's advice and tell his daughter that his goods are at a storage facility and if he shows at your home the police will be called. This could be your last message before you change your details.

Red,

Doing okay?

AM

I want my husband back.

Hang in there!
Change is hard but sometimes for the better.

I don't know your situation Jedi but aren't there times when you would love to have your wife sitting there beside you and it wouldn't matter what anybody else thought or said about it?

Red,

I am guessing you saw your husband when he was an town and he turned on the charm. He knows how to attract women. He's done it several times and then he shows himself to be the freeloader that he really is. As much as he has said and done, he still has a love bank balance with you. This is why Plan B is so important.

I am sorry you are feeling badly.

AM

I know you and everybody else are correct but I cannot just cut off contact w/o sending a letter or something. I do believe he can change IF he wants to. Help me with a Plan B letter please.

Have you read the Plan B letters in here?
How to Plan B Correctly

A plan B letter will be so good for you. They say on average an abused woman leaves 8 times before she stays gone. It is a horrible thing for you to go through, but also for your kids, fearing your safety. A plan B letter will help you avoid getting on that yo-yo, gives you a concrete list of what "set up for success" looks like.

Jedi I totally loved what you said on another thread about settled for crumbs and then complaining you don't have a loaf of bread. Redhead, you can raise the bar high and get to enjoy the loaf of bread. Then these crumbs from this last time period here will truly sink back into perspective. I'm so grateful you are here where folks will help you protect yourself from temporary fleeting feelings. You are such a special woman and deserve to take wonderful care of yourself.

Red, do keep in mind that Dr Harley said he wasn't going to give you a plan to get him back because he is not a safe person to be near you.

So I don't think the majority of Plan B letters (do x and do y and then you can come home) is appropriate in your case.

I think Dr H has overseen situations where an unsafe spouse had to live away from the home for over a year and attend anger management throughout and meet strict criteria in order to prove he was safe before returning home.

If that was possible he would have suggested that to you. Dr H does not take marital commitment lightly. Please do see that you are very likely dealing with a hopeless case.

I agree with you wholeheartedly that he can change IF he wants to (though it would probably be long, hard work with dedicated professionals to cure his anger). What you seem to constantly overlook is that he doesn't want to in the slightest and he never has. He has done this to a lot of other women besides you. He is not a buyer and finds PoJA or giving the lady a say a ridiculous idea. He has no interest in providing care.

The fact is he never was a true husband - he just pretended at the outset he could be one and then never delivered. You're mourning a mirage. If you were to cut off contact you would feel a lot better in a few months time and wondering what on earth your dilemma regarding contact with him was all about.

I have felt the pangs of the lovebank too. I thought I would have to tie myself down to prevent myself resuming contact at one point. But I didn't and I got better. A whole lot better. My entire life and even my career is so much better without that dead weight of unhappy love.

Today I am so glad I did because I am in a relationship with a wonderful person who makes me happy instead of one who gave me constant misery and blame.

Wouldn't you prefer to have happiness? Instead of contact with that feeling of unhappy love?

Why don't you try going away somewhere for a few weeks? Somewhere without cell reception and truly think it over. Your safety is at risk.

I wish I could afford to go away somewhere by myself for a few weeks but I can't. I keep trying to think things through, to be logical...keep my emotions out of the equation but I am an emotional person.

Is it possible for someone to post Mortarman's "The Roles of Husbands and Wives". I've seen it referred to on the forums but when I click the link I get a pop up that states access denied.

It has apparently been removed.

That's a shame, as I love his posts.

Red, I hope you're doing OK today and I just wanted to say don't give up because you are an emotional person. I am too and no matter how much MB I absorb or use, I have strong emotions nevertheless.

But you get used to enduring them and doing the logical thing nontheless. Just as you have done. Look how far you hgave come - you should be proud.

In the early days, someone told me my pain was like the shadow of a mountain. Just because I had been walking for many days and was still in shadow did not mean I always would be. One day the mountain would be a blip on the horizon behind me. That day came!

The important thing is to keep walking.

Red,

I am glad you posted. I have been wondering how you are doing. I think Indie's analogy is a good. Keep going. It WILL get better.

AM

Feeling lonely, mopey, and tired tonight. I took my son to college this past weekend, I did not realize how tough it would be on me on that long drive home.

I remember when people would say something to me about me having an empty nest and I would just brush it off. I would tell them that I was so ready for an empty nest because I had had kids in my home for over 42 years...I was so wrong.

I do have plans for this weekend but I am just not feeling enthusiastic about them.

I am going to work both days this weekend. I am also going to have my grandson tomorrow evening. My neighbor and I are going to take him to a festival in a nearby town. Then my son and his family are coming over on Sunday. I will also be going to Sunday services with another neighbor.

It's not that I don't have things to do and even people around me. It's weird but I still feel lonely.

Lady,

I am sorry you are feeling low right now. We have three kids and when the last one went off to college last fall, I was teary on the way home. And I love when they come to visit.

I think it is good you have busy plans for this weekend. Your grandson is lucky to get the one-on-one time with you. Hope you are feeling better soon.

AM

The point you are at right now, it couldn't be more natural for a long drive to turn into a sad reflection. That's any long drive much less dropping your son off at college!

Also the plans you make for yourself: they just don't seem satisfying or like much use against the loneliness. I registered for a night class to improve my prospects and (it seemed) all it did was place me amongst women in happy couples.

However the class did pay off ... Eventually. New friends did pay off too. My whole life is better but it didn't happen overnight.

Its very rough for quite a while and it IS lonely. Even though you have us.

I went to church yesterday (my friend and I are church shopping) and the people there were wonderful. The sermon was ok but the songs were fantastic. Every once in awhile, a song will move me to tears...I don't even remember what the song was but I was singing at the top of my lungs and raising my eyes to the heavens...I felt like God was standing right next to me.

I actually had a wonderful weekend. I spent time with my two youngest grandsons and I can't help but feel happy when the youngest one turns that toothless little grin on me. I also either saw or spoke to all of my children this weekend.

I took my 2 year old grandson to a local festival, gave him a dollar and watched him pay for his very own yo-yo balloon. He loves that toy.

All in all, it was a great weekend.

Kids like going to those festivals.
They used to have festivals all over, every little town did but lately its getting harder and harder to find these small festivals and parades
That's good you had a nice weekend.

Lady,

Thanks for posting about your nice weekend. It really made me smile.

AM

I m surrounded by several small towns Jedi. I am a natural born city girl and when I moved to the country 20 years ago I missed the conveniences of the city but my kids loved being out here. I have grown to love it as well.

There are so many festivals and small town parades in the area. I remember being surprised at the first parade I went to when they were tossing candy to the kids along the parade route.

I was even more surprised when people were waving at me when we passed each other driving down the road. I thought they knew me...now I know they were just being friendly.

I am happy to put a smile on your face armymama. You have been so encouraging to me when I am having those sad days. I love when you check on me, it makes me feel like somebody cares about me when I am feeling lost and alone.

Thank you.

Little people are amazing at switching your focus to what really matters...

We are truly rooting for you. You are one of life's survivors and your success story is going to be quite the legend. I just know it!

All those small towns used to always have Veterans Day and Memorial Day parades too.
Some of them lost a lot of young men in the wars.
They taught children respect for the national Holidays.