Hello MB members,

I am a Husband in a 16+ year marriage with 3 kids (4yr boy, 6yr boy, 9yr girl). I am 47 and my wife is 39.

We have been in counseling since April 13. Once a week for each of us individually and once as a couple.

We are struggling and I need some feedback and support. I need to know where I am really doing wrong so I can fix it and how to cope.

I will fill in the details in a series of replies to this subject to give a full history and detailed explanation of things. I know it will be long and I probably should apologized for that right now. It is hard for me to not give detail especially if I expect well thought out responses based on what the situation is.

Let's start with some general history of our early courting to marriage in my next reply.

Let's start with Background Info on challenges of our different personalities:

Let me first describe me: I am a Christian so this will in general help you understand some of my core beliefs. I am a detailed sort of guy, work in Information Technology world, so I have to pay attention to detail... I classify myself as slightly introverted in that I think before I speak and I do better in small groups than larger groups. Although anyone that knows me more than 5 minutes would probably say they don't believe I am introverted since I can easily carry on very long meaningful conversations and talk for hours. I just have to force myself at times to get going. Once I know you for just a bit no problems. Anyway... I am a guy that uses humor a lot to break the ice and when I was single it was my way into drawing a female to me. Now let me move on to some background...

When I met Kelly she was very outgoing and forward. This is part of what attracted me to here. I think most men would be attracted to someone who gives them attention and engages them in a way like they were already best friends.

Let me give an example. She was so forward that one of the first things I remember was meeting her after choir practice. I was quiet and she just started talking to me like we were already close friends. This was different as I had never met another female that was like this. She was truly the first I had met that was this forward. It wasn�t long after talking she said she was going to go get something to eat and invited me to eat with her. At the time I didn�t know she was actually dating someone... had I known this I would have said no as I would have found this to be wrong or at the minimum not wise.

95% of Kelly�s friends were men. She only had a couple of girls that were friends. There may have been others, but these are the only few I really ever met or heard about. Other than this there were numerous men.

I was 8 years older than Kelly (21) and me (29) so she was living at an age that I had already gone through. The college years, the party years, the we are all living free and footloose, the time where no boundries really existed between guys and girls. A time where relationships easily jumped from one person to the next. Ultimately I had gone through all this and personally was looking for settling down and meeting someone who I could develop a best friend relationship and then see where it goes next. I was not looking to have 20 close girls as friends, but to develop something unique.

I quickly realized she mostly had guy friends and she stayed over at this group of guys home most of the time. I specifically recall Kelly literally wrestling on the bed with one of the guys.

I also realized one of the guys she hung out with was a guy she had dated as well.

During these early weeks I saw a lot of things that concerned me in regards to male / female relationships and I remember thinking that if things moved forward between the two of us I would have to see how she changed her relationships with males when she entered into a dedicated relationship.

At some point, I don�t recall when, probably early on that she was actually dating another man who was going to an out of state college so was not in town and had not been in town since I met her (couple of months). I remember being very disappointed in hearing this, but she painted a picture to me of a relationship that was on the outs and appeared to be near its end. I had to make a decision at this point. Do I end any sort of relationship with her or do I just distance it and disengage my already building feelings and be only a friend.

I was actually still in the process of trying to come to grips with the what I had heard about her relationship when Kelly found out that her boyfriend had cheated on her and got another girl pregnant. I will call this �The first betrayal�. What do I mean by this? This is the first time (at least while I knew Kelly) that she witnessed an unfaithful act in the confines of a relationship. And this was against her.

Maybe I became the rebound guy... I don�t know... I do know that I did make a conscious decision to see how our relationship would play out and see if it would grow. Still watching how her relationship with other men changed or not changed as we grew closer over time. Heck� when single I am very flirty with women and very playful and had no problems hanging out with opposite sex friends together� but as I entered a serious relationship that changes things for me.

Over the coming months our relationship grew and we became more serious and decided on an exclusive relationship. I don�t recall the exact time of this. It was only a couple of months of hanging out I believe.

As the relationship grew there came a point where she told me she loved me while on a trip to the beach with some friends. I wasn�t certain I was at the same point she was with the �love� thing. Feelings were strong and to be honest I took her I love you response as more of a puppy love or infatuation as I don�t believe she had met anyone like me either.

Our relationship grew stronger, but before I could go further I knew we needed to discuss what we expected out of a relationship long term and how did we see relationships with the opposite sex change if at all.

Over time I did my best to make it clear that I would not be going out with other women in any capacity. If I was in a serious relationship and wanted to see if it led to a long term commitment of marriage I would not be growing relationships with other women. This really wasn�t too difficult as I only had a few girls that were friends. I had many more when I was 8 years younger, but being older I had built more relationships with men.
I don�t recall the exact timing of everything, but at some point Kelly decided she wanted to take a break from dating me. I believe her words was that she felt �smothered� and needed some space. As I look back on why she wanted to do that... the only thing that I can recall she articulated was she was struggling with the relational boundaries with other guys.

Several weeks later we picked up our relationship. The way she described it to me was she wanted to develop the relationship and try to grow it.

A big point of contention was the relationships with other males. It became clear if I could not become �OK� with her close male relationships that I would lose her. Maybe this was a time where I should have exited the relationship as I could NOT see an eventual marriage with a women who in the end wanted to keep close male relationships, go to movies with them, go to their house and stay with them, and have regular physical contact (ie Wrestling around and so forth).

Instead I decided maybe I was fundamentally flawed and I was wrong to want to have a relationship heading to marriage that would minimize the opposite sex relationships. For me I could not ever see myself building close relationships with other women while in a serious relationship much less marriage, but perhaps I was wrong. So I spoke with Kelly and told her I would try to basically except those relationships and accept them as if they would always be there. I recall this sort of being an ultimatum to me. Either I accept these relationships and never expect them to change or the relationship would end.

My goal was to try and build stronger relationships with the guys and be close friends with them, possibly closer friends than Kelly. Heck maybe they would themselves build what I would consider appropriate distances from Kelly since they would know me well and Kelly. Looking back I should have realized I could not become best friends with every new male friendship Kelly would build or have.

I even apologized to a couple of the guys for trying to pull her away from their friendships and that I wanted to build relationships with them. None of them felt I was taking her away... they all said they understood. The guys were not bad guys at all... the whole issue for me was proper boundaries, but at this point I was trying to see if I could grow and change by allowing someone I was seriously dating to have whatever male relationships she wanted.

I can�t recall if it was weeks or several months, but there came a point where I decided I could not do this. I was going to lay it all on the line to Kelly and end the relationship as I knew I could not do it. In my heart I knew there had to be solid boundaries and I could not see being married while my wife was continuing to build strong relationships with other men... misleading other men as I believe a very forward open women could unknowingly do. I do realize there are marriages where both the husband and wife are very outgoing and have close opposite sex friends so I want to avoid saying it is WRONG... but for me it is not right.

So I spoke with Kelly... very emotional for me as I thought it was over... I shared that I just could not do it. I could not see the relationships she was having with other men as something acceptable to me as a long term relationship head towards possible marriage. I thought it was over with and the relationship had came to an end, but Kelly surprised me and in the end she seemingly accepted that those relationships would have to change if we were to grow closer and move to the next stage.

At the time... I think I felt I was accepting a lie. I just recall having feelings that she just is not wired this way and why would she ever change her relationships. But instead I ignored this feeling to see where it would go.

Over the coming months we had tough conversations about the subject, there were times she did things that went against what she agreed she wanted out of a relationship. But I did see her growing and I looked at it as me watching her grow as a young woman... something I had already grown through.

Our relationship continued to grow, but I remember an incident where Kelly was going to need a new place to stay while at college. We were basically seeing each other each weekend and sometimes met for dinner half way since it was only an hour drive. Anyway, she had approached me about moving into a coed house where they had shared bathrooms, shared living space, shared kitchen... really the only non-shared area was the bedrooms. I had seen this situation in the past when I was younger and I knew this was not a good situation for a young Christian woman to be in... but I know selfishly I did not want her in this situation... Christian or not. In the end she agreed to not do it, but at the time I had to convince her of it. She ended up with several girls which I believe was more appropriate.

Our relationship continued to grow and Kelly�s relationships with men did appear to be changing. Maybe in part since we spent a lot of time with each other and she didn�t have the same time available to spend it with other men.

There were still many discussions about relationships as we continued to grow. I think it came up many times for the fact I did not want to spend more time in a relationship that was not going to be right for me if it led to marriage. I guess it was more of a reality check to see if we were on the same page.
There was a time where a big discussion took place in regards to two boys that were apparently very close male friends of Kelly�s. Kelly always described these guys as her cousins when they were discussed, but I soon realized they were not cousins and at least one of them did not think of Kelly as a cousin relationship, but someone who wanted to have a more intimate relationship with her. We were looking at some pictures and this became obvious based on what the man wrote on the back of her picture. Ultimately Kelly admitted he probably had more feelings for her than just friends. This will be important later as I share about a Facebook incident after we were married 10+ years.

In the end I requested Kelly distance this relationship... I may have even wanted it to end. I didn�t want Kelly to be harsh or mean with them... I had just wanted her to share with the boys that she was in a serious relationship and she couldn�t have the same type of relationship she once had. I witnessed the phone conversation she had... I do recall I thought it could be handled better. I am sure Kelly was trying to prove something to me, but I wanted the boys to understand why the relationships couldn�t stay the same as it was. I really do think how it came across was a bit abrupt, but in the end I did want that relationship to not be the same as it was. I did feel guilty how it happened though... it was executed poorly as she really did NOT give them clear reasons as to why.

We read several books about relationships and marriage together. I recall one about the 5 love languages and one about marriage and a study on the Song of Solomon... one specific area about protecting a marriage.

Sometime in October of 97 we had a big disagreement. I can�t recall exactly what it was. The primary issue I ever had was about proper boundaries so that is probably what it was about. I was thinking long and hard about our relationship and in the end I loved her and was willing to work through our issues together. So on October 31�st I asked her to marry me while at the church up at the altar. I told her I knew we had some struggles, but if I was going to have struggles in life that I wanted to work through them together with her.

We did not go through premarital counseling and looking back we should have. I don�t know how it would have changed things... meaning would we have NOT gotten married or would we just had some counseling to deal with some of the issues we both had prior to marriage. Not sure what it would have led to.

Over the years one of our core relational struggles is what are proper boundaries for our marriage with others in general as well as the work place.

In my workplace I NEVER seem to be put into a place where I would choose something that goes against something we have previously agreed upon or get put into a position where I have to think should I do this or allow this or whatever. It�s just simply never an issue.

Well actually... I have had one girl who was going through divorce and would come to my office to talk. Here is EXACTLY what I did:

First I immediately told Kelly of the situation.

I would always make sure my door was open and usually got up and stood in the hallway where others could see us.

I NEVER went to lunch or took phone calls.

I directed her to go to her pastor if she had one and if not I told her my wife would be willing to talk with her. I basically tried to guide and share wisdom, but direct her to a more appropriate place than myself as a husband to my wife.

Ultimately I think she either worked through it or got help as she didn�t continue to seek me out as I made sure I always directed to the Bible, God, Pastor, my wife.

However in Kelly�s first workplace �the hospital� it seemed men felt free to place their hands on other women�s shoulders and also do a tremendous amount of flirting. In the early stages of this job we talked a number of times about what was ok for us and what was not.

What was NOT ok was men placing their hands on Kelly in any way shape or form. Although we agreed on this I was never entirely sure Kelly was ok with it and now I am even less sure.

What was also not ok was going to lunch with another guy, multiple guys or in general coed lunches (other than required business lunches that happened time to time just as a part of the job). I know the coed lunches may be a hard pill for some to swallow and think I am controlling... what I am talking about is the same group of people going out all the time and being lunch buddies. We have both witnessed this situation and seen affairs grow out if it.

They had a common lunch room where they all co-mingled as it was. We have a lunch room at our office, but I have only on a couple of occasions stayed in there as it was usually only a couple of guys and the reset women. I just avoided it. I believe this was Kelly�s going out to lunch with everyone time since the only difference was they were in the office and not leaving the building.

In the end I just asked questions every now and then about lunches and how they went just to keep communication open and make sure no red flags popped up. I never really felt comfortable with how that worked.

Kelly told me of times where someone would try to rub on her shoulders and she took the stand to tell them that was personal space between herself and her husband. I have had no reason to not believe her. Other than when she has lied and been found out... then it makes me doubt everything.

She also told me of times where a group would be going to lunch and she either ate in the cafeteria or made other plans or ate lunch with me. I had no reason to not believe her.

There were times where many of them wanted to go out to dinner where many would be drinking it up and she had never gone or asked me to go. Just not our scene.

Overall it took time to establish the boundaries, but there did come a point where I felt comfortable that we were on the same page.

Over the years we had various friendships. We did however build friendships with one couple where the wife was more reserved like myself and the husband was more like Kelly. This friendship at times generated some conflict. I know the man and he loved flirting with women and he definitely found my wife attractive (he told me). Many times he would try to arrange it so he and Kelly would be alone... like saying they would go pick up some items for a picnic together or whatever. With Kelly�s outgoing nature there was times you would wonder who the couple was on an outing. I tried to explain to Kelly how her forward nature with him was not a good choice and that it created uncomfortable situations for myself and probably for his wife. The other wife never directly said it, but many times you could see the wife�s discomfort when he talked with other women in a more flirtation way than he did with his own wife. I guess the point I am trying to make is between the two of them it made for a very uncomfortable situation and to the point I felt I had to keep an eye out. This man made many comments about other women, how he found them attractive and loved talking to some of them. I did try to discuss this with him in general and how it may make his wife feel and how his desires were not God centered. But in the end he didn�t seem to think it was a problem since he always came home to his wife and nothing �ever happened�.

I sometimes feel this is what my wife believes about male / female relationships. She was very much like him in nature and I find it can be very dangerous in the marriage relationship to act as he was.

We had another set of friends. The wife was more like me. She tended to be reserved, but once she knew you then she was very open like I am. I am quieter in groups, but in small close knit groups I feel more free to be talkative and open. But I have ALMOST always kept proper boundaries. The one time I feel I had not kept proper boundaries is with this wife. Because we both had struggled with our spouses on issues and both have struggled with broken trust by our spouses. I found myself drawn to discussing things with her due to the common struggle. We never spent time alone, we never allowed a line to be crossed, BUT I was very aware of the closeness I felt from someone else who understood my pain and struggles. Because I recognized this I made a choice to not grow conversations with her that built a common bond between us and kept that distance. I shared this with Kelly. It never seemed to bother her and she always seemed to believe nothing could ever happen. This bothers me as her confidence in nothing will ever happen has been the downfall of many, many couples.

Kelly took on a new job. This of course made me a little nervous as I knew if men there were flirtatious or touchy with women that she would have to make the same stands she did in her last job. What I didn�t know is if she would or would not. In the long run I think she made some stands as I don�t recall this period of time being as difficult as what it was in her first job. Partly because we had gone through it before and partly because she was older and I felt maturing in our relationships. I believe there might have been one issue at work and I believe she handled it, but left the guy sore about the situation. Either way I didn�t care if he was sore about it, but that my wife took a stand.

At some point Kelly returned to her previous job and we talked about having the same boundaries as always. I felt since she had worked here before with many of the same people we would have few issues.

Going back earlier in our marriage Kelly had a very close relationship with a couple that mentored her. She would have probably told you she thought they had a great marriage and things were going great. The female was very much like Kelly. Very outgoing, very talkative, and so on. Over time of me knowing this couple I noticed the female had several male friends at the church. One friend was with the pastor of the church. About a year before anything was ever revealed I told Kelly that I felt there was something going on that should not be going on between them. All of the signs were there, lots of hugging, sitting arm in arm, constantly talking with one another (like I have seen Kelly do with other men in the past), basically looking like they are close friends if not best friends. I told Kelly multiple times there was something going on and then it came out that they were having an affair and a church ended up splitting... not necessarily due to the affair, but what it led to. I consider this as �The Second Betrayal�.

If you recall I talked about �The First Betrayal� where Kelly was cheated on and this being the second where a trusted friend and mentor cheated on her husband. I look at these as milestones in someone�s life that should, in my mind, lead to some changes in relationships with the opposite sex.

Through this disaster it opened up more discussions in our relationship about not becoming that couple. By not allowing relationships with the opposite sex to grow or to be overly friendly with the opposite sex and building a friendship that could eventually become a replacement source of worth or love should we ourselves be going through a rough patch.

There were several other situations similar to this where I discerned something was going on with other couples and I was correct. These led to what I call �The Third (and more) Betrayals�. Basically life experiences that Kelly either directly was involved in or was close to. Each time something like this happened I truly felt these experiences solidified our path as a couple to protect our marriage as best we could, avoid unnecessary situations with the opposite sex, avoid situations where we had witnessed or seen others fail... those we thought were strong.

I will stop here as this is a good background. My next post will give some basic beliefs on opposite sex friends from my perspective and then I will provide a history of our experiences leading up to resentment and bitterness on my part and my pulling away or worse pushing her away.

Welcome to MB!
Does your wife still have opposite sex friendships?

There's really no need for so much back story. It's natural for women to compare and contrast pre-marriage and while OS friends are not appropriate post-marriage, it's not clear whether this problem is still unresolved? What's the current position and why are you in counselling?

Counselling tends to be a talking shop with no action plan. MB is not like that. What is the problem facing you and what solution would you like to see/would your wife like?

Are you and your wife currently deeply in love?

First let me first give some general feedback and answer some questions on opposite sex relationships from my point of view so those who want to provide feedback (good or bad) can at least understand my beliefs:

We live in a world where we interact with the opposite sex all the time. We work with the opposite sex all the time. Sometimes in a very infrequent and sporadic way and sometimes in a very close daily frequent way. We do projects with the opposite sex, we share many common likes and dislikes to others of the opposite sex. Basically we are surrounding with the opposite sex in all areas of life. So how do we handle these relationships? What questions come to mind in how a married couple should interact? Let me list some along with my answers. This are my point of view and understand not everyone agrees.

Do I think we do not speak with the opposite sex? No I do not think that..

Do I think we cannot laugh at a joke or share a common interest with the opposite sex? No I do not think that.

Do I think just because we work with a specific opposite sex coworker that it means an affair will happen (emotional or sexual)? No I do not think that.

Do I think we cannot share basic personal information like the joy of our children or joy of our spouse? No I don�t think that. I think when we include in our conversation the love for our family (especially) the spouse we help solidify to the person of the opposite sex that we are happily married and not looking for anything to interfere with that marriage.

Do I think when we go to public events like kids sports or work events that we cannot talk to the opposite sex? No we certainly CAN speak to the opposite sex.

Do I think we cannot laugh at something the opposite sex has shared? No I don�t think that.

Now all of the above questions show that I clearly do not think we should live isolated lives form the opposite sex. I don�t live that way either. Now let me share some boundaries or general guidelines I have for the above.

Do I think it is risky to build a close relationship with another woman? I definitely think it is risky especially if my relationship with my wife is not ROCK SOLID. I understand that there may be something that my wife and I don�t share a common liking for that I and a person of the opposite sex may have. I can acknowledge this, but I am not going to pursue it or put my energy into this.

Do I think we need to be guarded with the opposite sex? Yes. We should take captive the words we use with the opposite sex to not mislead, we should be aware of how the other person is responding so we can adjust our actions to not encourage inappropriate behavior, we should be aware of even how the opposite sex may take something so we can avoid having to make corrections. Am I saying you cannot speak to or laugh at something they said NO. But the less connected you are with your spouse the more guarded you need to be while you build the marriage.

Do I think we should keep information from our spouse in regards to relationships with opposite sex? NO... if you cannot be honest with your spouse about your relationships and you hide them then it is a likely sign that something inappropriate is going on or perhaps your marriage is not strong and you are putting too much emotional energy into this opposite sex relationship.

When we go to public events in general do I think couples should be able to speak to other people (individually). Yes we should. Should it always be the opposite sex? Probably not as that may indicate some other issue if you gravitate almost wholly to the opposite sex? Should you spend the majority of your time away from your spouse? NO. You should also enjoy some of this time together communicating with other couples and individuals as well. Is it wrong if you spent more time apart? Not necessarily. If you have plenty of time together as a married couple and this is a time for both of you to interact with others and it is a mutual desire and need then good.

Do I think we should put our hands on the opposite sex. Other than shaking hands at as a greeting: probably not. Folks we know more personally through church and so forth may also be more of a hug greeting, but even that should be either a side hug or quick and not a lingering.

Do I think we should have more time with someone of the opposite sex than our own spouse? Absolutely not! One may ask how much time? I don�t know the answer to this, but short of required work the spouse should probably not be seeking more time from someone of the opposite sex especially if they are not giving equal and much more time to their own spouse or if it makes the spouse uncomfortable..

Again... this is just my point of view I have developed over the years through my experiences and life... I know others will totally disagree, but this is my core thoughts. Of course I am always open to growing emotionally and see other points of view.

But I know for me when I did marry I thought we had gotten to the point where we were at least in the same chapter... maybe not the same page... but the same chapter on these developed beliefs... especially through the witnessing of failed marriages I explained in last post.

Next post will share some of my worst moments and history leading up to what put us into counseling.

Too much information for posters to get their hands on.

So, in a nutshell, your W has minimally existent boundaries with other men and you are not comfortable with it, yet since you agreed to try to be accepting of her choices, you now feel like you are going back on your word.

No, your boundaries are not out of line. You sense less connection with your W while she carries on without consideration for your feelings. Your instinct is definitely putting you on high alert, as it seems it should be.

You only have the capacity and power to change yourself though, unless she has an epiphany on what she could potentially lose.

Is she comfortable and satisfied with the marriage?

Would she be open to the suggestion of trying out the MB Program?

Read all of the free articles on here and develop an understanding of Dr. Harley's Basic Concepts and read further about the POJA, Policy Of Joint Agreement.

Then ask for the help you specifically need and you will be guided correctly.

LTL

She had developed 2 close relationships that came to a head in March 2013. I explain more in coming posts.

Sorry for detail... I am wired that way... will try to pull it back.

I absolutely do not want my marriage to end. Do I always have "feeling" of love. Absolutely not and I know she doesn't either.

I will give some more thought and try to keep my future posts short.

This isn't that type of site, people aren't going to just spew their own opinion here.

People are here to share Dr H's methods and prionciples because (unlike the very high failure rate in couselling) they work.

His opinion is very similar to yours. Members of the OS are people to laugh with and live with but they are not people for married folks to get intimately involved with as best friends who bare their souls.

Most spouse swould find such a thing horrifically threatening and such a careless and casual attitute would make anyone worry.

Now we know that we all agree, how can we help you?

Emotional Affair or Physical? Was it exposed to all your loved ones and the affair partner's spouse and loved ones?

What precautions has she put in place to prevent another affair?

How transparent is her life today or does she keep her secret life private? Don't tell me she STILL has OS friends?

How much time alone together do you get each week? Doing what?
What are her complaints about you?

Is she still in contact with these men?

A Quick version of fun marriage to not fun:

I am not trying to slam my wife, but here are some of her struggles that I allowed (incorrectly allowed) to build resentment, bitterness and anger.

- Clutter and a mess doesn't appear to bother her. I basically do 80 percent of the laundry, 90 percent of the dishes, 70 percent of the cooking and if things get picked up off of the floor I usually am the one initiating it. We both work and now have 3 kids. But up to the last few months it was like I describe above. The kitchen floor would be full of food on counters and floor and we would get fruit flies and gnats and it was very unsanitary to me. I was cleaning house at 2:00AM at night. Now my wife works as I do so to me this is a team... I don't expect her to do it all... I don't even expect her to do 50% of it as I think I am better able to do it, but I want her help. This has improved, but one area that I allowed to make me feel unloved, uncared for, which turned to hurt and internal anger and then to resentment and bitterness.

- Losing things: My wife can be easily distracted and loses things. She routinely loses the debit card on average 4 times a year, has lost some big checks paid to us and many other things. I don't know how many times I could not find my keys as she moved them from the place I put them EVERY day. I allowed this to also lead to resentment.

- Our physical intimacy was very infrequent after the first 5 years. Maybe once a month. She would tell me we could be intimate and then that night back out or simply go to sleep or have a headache. I allowed this also lead to resentment.

The point is there were things that were not good things, but instead of me properly handling them I allowed them to bring out the worst in me where I literally (internally) couldn't stand to be around her. How did that play out (externally). She could feel the disappointment, the disapproval, and coldness.

I am NOT proud of this and knowing the hurt this likely produced in my wife brings me to my knees. She is a person that avoids conflict and I am a person that wants to deal with it and get through it. That doesn't mix well either.

Regardless we went a number of years like this... up and down... close and distant.

Now my next post will state what happened and last post will state where we are now. It is so hard to keep this short.

EDIT: I am sorry... I am trying to keep it short.

My wife started a new job in early 2012. We were not good... not close... very little sex... and just sort of co-existing.

I didn't hear much about the co-workers or the consultants that were regularly there at hospital. I am just going to copy pieces from journal so I don't have to retype:

In March 2013 my wife comes to me and tells me she has been lying to me for about a year. I knew we had some internal struggles as husband and wife, I knew I had some bitterness and resentment built up which caused me to be unkind when those situations kept popping up, but I was not expecting my wife to be telling me she has been lying to me for a year. I can say I immediately felt sick to my stomach, because trust is a HUGE thing to me and LYING simply DESTROYS trust. She continued to tell me she had been going out to lunch with fellow co-workers (sometimes just a couple of men) and sometimes a big group. She looked at me and said she disagreed with what we have agreed with in the past and had no problems going out to lunch with coworkers like this... whether it was just men or coed. She stated she never went out with just one man.

Kelly shared that my anger and disgust towards her had hurt her a great deal. I recognized what she was talking about as I had built up bitterness and anger over the last few years. We had just gone to the marriage conference and it was something that was a burden on my heart to deal with and I had already started dealing with it... although struggling. She gave a couple of examples and there was no where to turn... I knew I had been acting that way and I knew I had anger and bitterness.

I can�t remember the exact wording, but in short she told me that she felt she needed to go out with these coworkers to meet her needs emotionally. Sadly my needs were not being met either, but I didn�t seek out other females or even coed groups to fulfill it. I really didn�t do anything else other than work hard.

But there�s the difference. I would have NEVER sought out other females or coed work groups to meet my need. No matter how bad things are between us that isn�t even on my radar. I always want to work it out. For that matter I have no desire to go to lunch with another woman, 2 woman or a big coed group. I can get all my work related items done at work and I certainly have enough social time at work as well.

Kelly said she wanted us to go to counseling. I didn�t want my marriage to end, but to be honest at this point I don�t see how anything could save it. She wants something I don�t think I�ll ever be able to give her. However I don�t want our marriage to end so I am fully willing to go to counseling.

As days passed I asked again if she had just gone out with one guy one on one and she said no. She said she had only gone out with 2 guys (the consultants). My wife is not good at lying so I waited 5 minutes and asked her is it was Gary that she had gone to lunch with alone and she said no it was Joe. So now I caught her in a lie... although she is telling me things she is still lying.

We had started counseling and my request was lets stop the bleeding. Please don't go out with the opposite sex (one or multiple) until we can get some counseling and some healing for both of us. She agreed, but she did it 4 more times before she stopped... of course the stopping coincided with the project ending the and consultants rarely coming back.

During this period she worked for 3 months until 9:00PM to 10:00PM 6 days a week on the project where one or both of these men were always around and many times alone.

At that time I point blank asked if she had a physical affair and she denies it. I don't have evidence to say otherwise. I believe she has at the minimum had an emotional affair back then and she takes great exception to this as she said she has never had a lustful desire and back then she said she could drop the relationship and it wouldn't bother her and now that he is gone there isn't any sort of loss so how could there be an emotional affair.

I am not certain she had any sort of lustful desire, BUT... I wholeheartedly believe there was an emotional affair (not lustful) where she was building a close relationship and he and the other guy were filling emotional needs.

She claims she has never spoke about anything emotionally close... like heart desires or issues with our marriage or anything like that... she said it was just normal life stuff... just a friend relationship that was fun and she could laugh. Of course we didn't have that.

I want to be clear... there are red flags everywhere on this... but I found nothing that was blatant in regards to sexual affair or even lustful.

We went on vacation about 2 months into counseling with family and she had to do some work for 4 or 5 hours. After the trip something told me to look at her blackberry from work... when I did I see she was emailing one guy on and off during that whole 4 hours of work and it wasn't work related... it was about the trip her fun and so forth... nothing ever about me... just kids if not about herself. By itself it could just be seen as a friend she was talking to.

That night I asked her to bring up her work email so I could see it.

Below is a list of emails that were sent to one of 2 guys or to both that are more personal in nature. A few of these would not be a concern by themselves, but as a whole and in context of everything there was an issue. Some of them are just seem high schoolish in nature. Like the pictures of food from restaurants indicating she wants them to eat with her. Here is a general listing of some of the content first:

Emails about our personal life like video of Adam on new bike we bought him.
Emails about our beach trip. While on beach trip Kelly decides to spend part of the day emailing back and forth with Joe about our trip.
Emails that are most definitely flirty in nature. Not sexual. Initiated by Kelly.
Emails that are playful and banter back and forth. Mostly initiated by Kelly.
Emails clearly stating how good of friends they are. Initiated by Kelly.
Emails clearly stating how GREAT of friends they are. Initiated by Kelly.
Email where Kelly sends picture of herself to both guys showing her hair straight. Comes across as she was wanting attention and even complained that one of the guys didn�t even notice. Initiated by Kelly.
Emails sending image / youtube videos. These are inappropriate images. Things like women�s large breasts with a saying on the shirt �Wish these were brains�. Video of man dancing in just underwear. Video of bare butt with man putting his nose into the bare butt due to practical joke. Initiated by Kelly.
Emails where either lunch / breakfast was being planned or going to take place. Just continuation of her lunch buddy relationship. Mostly initiated by Kelly.
Emails where she is giving praises and she receiving some praise back. Mostly initiated by Kelly.
Emails where she is concerned about their travels, offering to get their food and drink, and general concern. Initiated by Kelly.
Emails where she offers to get the food and drink. Initiated by Kelly
Email saying she has �nothing but luv for him�. Initiated by Kelly.
Emails just goofing in general. Mostly initiated by Kelly.
You will notice this never happens if any other professional is in the chain of emails.
Email where she says she is �bowing down and kissing his feet�.
Emails where she sends them pictures of food at places she is eating indicating she wishes they were there. She never sends these to me. So she wants one or both to go to lunch / breakfast, but not her husband.

Again... many of these individually I may not think much of... but in context with everything it was a clear pattern.

Next post is more about counseling and where we are now.

Your wife has had very poor boundaries and at least one emotional affair. Was it ever exposed? Is she still in contact?

So where are we now.

In counseling... I immediately started doing what the counselor wanted. He gave us a book called "Boundaries" and the next book was "His needs Her needs" The counselor pulls from varying sources. I soaked these books up... my wife... did not even read it for 3+ months. This killed me as I couldn't understand why she would not put in the effort. She was the one that said she wanted us to go to counseling (and I agreed). I tried doing everything the counselor coached us on... but my wife had a spirit of resistant or unwillingness.

Now come to July of 2013 the counselor worked with us on a boundary agreement. The agreement had some solid guidelines on opposite sex relationships in regards to going to lunch and building close relationships without knowledge of spouse and approval as well as agreements about not being flirty and constantly bantering back and forth (constant teasing) with someone of the opposite sex. Now we made comments in the agreement and my wife saw it as a guideline, but clearly some "gray" area on what too much bantering was or what flirty meant. Clearly no sexual flirting, but she is ok with non-sexual flirting and ok with basic touching. Someone touching her shoulder, hi-fives, and not sure what else as she would never expand on what "basic touching" meant.

The point is we have an agreement, but she says she doesn't see a problem or anything wrong with the things the agreement states we will not do. This makes me wonder could she ever live up to the agreement long term if she doesn't believe in it.

As counseling continued we would take 2 steps forward and 4 back. We go one week ok and then slam something happened and back.

One thing is clear I am struggling with hurt turning to anger and coming out inappropriately (not violence, not yelling, not screaming) but in barbs or saying things that I know may hurt her or me wanting to withdraw my love as she isn't showing much willingness or is hurting me. It is like a vicious cycle.

This is my area of struggles:

Trusting Her. She WANTS this, but she doesn't seem to understand it takes some time with her being consistent with honesty and what she agrees to.

She is not faithful in general... meaning she will tell you she is going to do something, but you have a 50/50 shot that she will do it. Probably more like 40/60. The point is she is very unfaithful with her word. For example she will tell you that 90+ percent of the time what I say I will do I will do... but for her you cannot have any sort of confidence what she said she will do will happen. I struggle with this, but I am doing much better at accepting she is not good in this area... BUT it goes back to me feeling like I cannot trust, because if she can't be faithful in the small things how can you be faithful in the really big important things.

So we are now more than a year into counseling and there are days it seems like we are back at square one. At times you can easily see the contempt for one another.

I fully own EVERY short coming I have. I truly work on them... fail at times succeed at others. The counselor will state that he knows I have been the one to put for the most effort and made the most improvements, but he is also pointing out correctly that in the last 3 months she has really stepped up some of the willingness. I agree... but there is still that resistance. I have a curse of being able to see when someone is genuine or not so unfortunately I can read my wife too well.

3 months ago in counseling I had called her selfish the night before (I shouldn't have said it), but to her it was so bad she looked at the counselor and said how do I say I have had enough. And as of that day she was walking out. Ultimately I gave her space and involved our pastor and she was willing to go.

The counselor still believes it was a feeling of desperation and not a true desire and that she should have never have said it... the problem for me this was a whole new break in trust!

Heck... I get not feeling like you love someone and even the feeling of wanting to be away or not with them, but it is my marriage so I am not going anywhere if it can be fixed. That was a tough one to get through as in the back of my mind I was thinking if anyone should have made the threat it should have been me... but what good would that do.

It did re-invigorate efforts on my part so unfortunately she may see it as a good choice... but again all along I am making improvements on my areas and always willing where she was resisting.

So where are we today:
Struggling... she says she is abiding by agreement... but she does work in the same room with 1 guy that likes to banter a lot and she has admitted there is some of that going on... which bothers me. She doesn't see anything wrong with it, but I remind her it breaks our agreement. It just gets her mad when I point things out.

I still see some willingness on her part... one day it is there... the next day it is not... one day she can be so caring in her words and the next day she looks like she hates you.

I need help in the following ways:

- Not allowing hurt to move to anger and come out inappropriately.
- Showing love and grace.
- Not coming across as judgmental.
- Not allow a bunch of small disappointments build into big hurt.
- Since everything is so sensitive due to hurt how to now let things that should be at a level X be hurt as if it was level Y.

It's like you can't catch a break or catch a breath.

Even just now... we literally work across the street from each other. I emailed her to see if she wanted to take a break and go for a walk. She said she would email me shortly. It was 10:00AM. I didn't hear back so I just now called to see how things were going... figured she got slammed and could go anywhere. She says sorry... things got busy... and then I went and got a bite to eat... came back to busy... and was just now emailing you. Now she did email after we got off of the phone, but I sadly am not sure she really was emailing me. Lies screw with your head so much. The email was about kids schedule... nothing about my original request.

We literally get only about 1 hour a week of any time to talk... and I am not exaggerating... so in my mind why didn't you just invite me to lunch since I was already trying to get time with you. Her work schedule is less flexible so we learned me asking her to go to lunch came with so many no's that it was better if she asked when she knew she could go.

I just don't get it. When on the phone a few minutes ago I told her I was sorry that I was struggling right now with this as it really feels like she is avoiding and there was an opportunity for her to do something to build the marriage. She immediately said she had to get off of the phone. The problem is... I know this is a love buster to be able to discuss things and it is my love buster to not discuss things.

Stopping here.

Not entirely... it was only back before marriage I tried to be accepting of the male relationships... I told her I could not continue in a relationship with low boundaries and she in the end seemed to come around to seeing and understanding it from my perspective.

Neither of us are comfortable or satisfied at the moment. But we are trying to get there.

I am going to read as much as I can. Our counselor had us do the emotional needs questionnaire a long while back and read his needs her needs, but I think we had bigger issues. I am trying to go back and start looking into this more.

Would your W be willing to post on this forum for advice?

Does she know that you are posting here?

LTL

She says NO AFFAIR took place at all. The only thing she has ever admitted as being wrong was lying to me. The friendship she said is not wrong and doesn't see an issue with it, but out of deference to me we have an agreement we worked out with counselor.

I believe there was at a minimum and emotional connectedness that was inappropriate. I think she disagrees with this as well. She stands by not doing anything wrong and that it was just a friendship and she would NEVER have an affair. Of course that is a dangerous statement as I believe if we would have continued on the course it could have turned into much more.

How transparent... she doesn't like me asking about things... I don't know if it is how I ask or if it is because she feels untrusted and that in itself puts her off or what... but I do ask and she seems to answer... although irritatedly at times.

In regards to OS friends. She works in the same room with a very friendly gregarious guy who likes to banter and tease. My wife has told me of some conversations that have made me uncomfortable... but to her she doesn't seem to have a problem with a little banter (non-sexual). But it does make me feel uncomfortable and not very safe.

I don't sense anything is being hidden... but we hardly have time to speak and if the only speak we have is about hurts then that doesn't allow for "good times" We literally only get about 1 to 2 hours of alone time a week. She almost always goes to bed after we put kids to bed (8:00PM) and then she reads for 45 minutes to an hour and goes to sleep. yes... we should be talking during this time in my mind, but she doesn't see it that way. Got a meeting will reply to others soon.

Is she still in contact with the OM?

MSM, we don't need that amount of detail to understand your situation. Very few people have the time to read such a long, superfluous post. You would get a lot more help if you summarized your story to 3 very short paragraphs. We don't need your backstory.

She doesn't know yet. We spoke to night and her main request is that I edify her more. I totally get this and I want to make sure I edify her as she has needs. The tough part is when she is deliberately doing things that are harmful to the marriage it makes it difficult to be edifying during those times... BUT I MUST FIND A WAY to do that regardless.

I doubt she would post as she is more of a surface type of person... meaning she doesn't like to talk intimately much or deeply about things... one of those just wanna have laughing good fun time... avoids conflict or difficult discussions. So I can't see her willing to post... but maybe she would be willing.

We are only getting 1 maybe 2 hours. I want the 15 hours mentioned in the book, but with kids at 4,6,9 I don't see that number of hours possible, but I believe we should be able to do at least half. Our counselor has requested we take 1 hour after kids in bed for time with just the two of us... then if we still have time take the remaining time before bed to take care of chores together. Unfortunately my wife goes to a book almost every night instead. Only once a week this request might take place. It makes me feel like she is resistant to growing and spending time together.

What are her complaints about me? I'll tell you what she has shared as I have asked many times what does she need and what can I do.

- If we have a discussion if she wants to stop it she wants it stopped. This is difficult as she sometimes stops it within 3 minutes and nothing negative has been said and nothing hateful and very calm. She doesn't like conflict so she stops it. Now I usually have tried to continue it, but I have altered this and have succeeded about 50% of the time to stop immediately, about 40% of the time stop it shortly after and well... I have failed a few times. It is difficult to try and work through an issue only to get unwillingness.

- She said she wants to be edified. I want to do this and to be honest am struggling with how I can edify with all of the difficulties and things that take place.

- If she has done something wrong and apologizes she wants it to be dropped immediately. If she is truly apologizing and it really is from the heart it is much easier to except and move on pretty quickly, but if it is an apology with a "but" and blame the other person added to it makes it difficult to easily except as sincere.

- She doesn't like to hear about a past issue over again. I agree... but if that same pattern still exists it is hard to not reference the pattern as a whole. But I sincerely don't want to bring up past things... especially if there was an apology and we resolved it. Actually if it is a resolved situation I am not sure I have brought it back up. Only the pattern based things does it come up again.

- She wants my tone to be different. Some how my tone comes across wrong. I try my best to share truthfully and try to articulate, but I must come across sounding judgmental or angry or something. I am actively and continually looking at this. I am meeting with our Pastor and his Wife semi weekly to improve the way I respond and react to things.

- When I am hurt I get very quiet. Some may call it a silent treatment or something of that nature. And to be honest... it probably is something like that. I am hurt... I am angry... and I struggle to just act like nothing just happened when something hurtful or negative may have just happened.

There are probably more... but I have to think a little more on what they are.

Oh... too detailed! I think that might bring up a chuckle from a couple of you here.

There are no boundary issues on my side... I help with all the housework... I help with the kids in a big way... I say yes to 99% of her requests... regardless to what it is. I really try to be a good husband... but obviously I am failing in certain respects and need to strengthen those ares.

I will try to go back and shorten it. Oops... it won't let me go back to them to edit... guess they post is too old now. Sorry.

Prisca,

The main consultant guy moved on to a new project. I know there have been a few emails back and forth (I have not seen them), but she said they were more professional in nature and not personal like the earlier ones.

The secondary guy helps out on project remotely at times and she has to communicate with him at times... she says that she has kept it professional.

The timing of the relationships subsiding timed with them leaving and going back to their remote offices. So who knows what would have happened if they continued coming into town every week.

She says there is no emailing back and forth. I could ask her to show me her email, but I am trying to provide trust as she has done somethings (agreement and adjustments in relationships) that deserve some rebuilding of trust.

Yes... I believe she has very poor boundaries. She will argue that we get the same end result, but we have a different path. My path is to have a hedge of protection by using boundaries... my wife will say she doesn't need a boundary... if they cross the line she will say something. But her line is blatant sexual advance. And in general I do believe if someone becomes blatantly sexual she will say something... but it is all those gray areas of teasing, flirtiness, and overall closeness that I find risky... and if our marriage is not doing well like ours then the risk becomes much greater not have some more protective boundaries.

In regards to was it ever exposed. She absolutely denies and emotional affair. She said she had not lust or sexual desires at all. Now I have researched many sites on what an emotional affair is and there are those that say it must involve lust and then there are those that say it does not have to involve lust. I believe the second type happened, but she still denies it to this day and says she did nothing wrong, but lie to me. This is hard to get past for me. But I don't really have a choice... I can let this eat at me forever or move past it.

It doesn't matter what she says. The M.O. of a wayward is to deny deny and deny some more. The emails/texts you shared with us are not just indicative of "poor boundaries" but red flags that she is either in an affair or actively seeking an affair.

Is she being transparent? Meaning, do you have access to passwords to her email/FB and also are you able to look at her phone at any time or is there a password lock on it? Do you have access to her phone records?

It doesn't matter if she denies it! You don't need her permission to let known what she had done.

Her behavior will not change if the affair is never exposed. There will be another one.

You rebuild trust with transparency. Without transparency, trust is impossible and dangerous.

You need access to all her accounts.

Do not trust her for one minute. Get access to those emails and accounts.

All contact with these men must stop. Will she end contact?

We have 7 kids, ages 9, 8, 7, 7, 5, 4 and 6 weeks. I don't buy that you can't have 15 hours because of the kids.

The thing is, only getting half of the 15 hours is not going to be enough. One hour each evening after the kids are in bed is not going to be enough. Wives need at LEAST 15 hours of undivided attention from their husbands in order to be in love. Anything less will not do it.

Read: What is an Affair?

You realize that your W has a SSL (secret second life), right? Otherwise you would have known about everything that was happening with those male coworkers without needing to find those emails.

The fact that your W feels "untrusted" and doesn't like to answer your questions is indicative of the fact that she is still clinging to her SSL. Look:


Some of the other language you use in your other posts about "needing to trust" has BIG RED FLAG written all over it....that you are being gaslit by your W. You should be snooping on her vs grilling her and hoping she will be honest with you about her day to day interactions with these men.

My sister and BIL check each other's phones and FB accounts out all the time. They don't even use words like 'trust' with each other. They have never had any issue of infidelity in their marriage. They have nothing to hide so it doesn't bother either of them.

People who are hiding things are the ones who want their spouses to "trust" them and not check up on them. This is a very theme we see over and over and over again on these forums. A spouse who is complaining about needing to be trusted is the one who needs to be checked up on the most.

You are using the language of a person who has been gaslit. Big time.

Please read.Please Explain Gaslighting

TRUST is a feeling, a reflex, that you get when your spouse is being open and honest. It's not something you do. It's not an uncaring 'do what you want in secret' policy. That would involve pretending you have no feelings at all! Most women would view such a disinterested attitude as most uncaring and unprotective.

Not your wife though. An uncaring attitude from you gives her free reign to explore more passionate and falsely purported caring from other men. She's already proven herself untrustworthy with one affair. Which she continues to lie about!

I cannot understand why you are getting into debates with her which only force her to repeat lies and keeps her stuck in dishonesty. Just snoop. You can then address the dishonesty based on what you find.

Your counsellor is also a buffoon. One hour after the kids are in bed? Who falls in love like that!?

It's pretty obvious you've been bullied into a sick version of trust by a wife who is addicted to admiration. Your counsellor joined in the bullying, because like most clueless people they just follow the lead of the strongest personality in the room.

That's why you came on here rambling and over - explaining. You've been bullied into thinking that caring about your wife is unnatural and that your feelings are abnormal.

]

Also

I'm going to repeat three key parts of Dr Harley's words for you:

I have access to all accounts other than her work email. She showed me the work emails back in 2013, but the last time I went to check she was very upset because she works for a hospital with HIPPA rules... meaning if she allows someone to see the emails that could have medical information in them she could lose her job. Here is why she was upset...

The last time I looked at them in 2013 I forwarded copies of them to myself as proof of a pattern and she was upset (NOT about me seeing them), but about me forwarding them out as some did have medical info and she could get fired if they audited and saw that. Which is why I told her that I would not do it that way again, but if I wanted to see it then I would expect her to show it to me. At the time she did indicated she would not due to HIPPA rules. This was also during a heated time so if I really pushed it she may be willing to pull them up now.

Now don't forget... she allowed me to see the emails the first time without issue and if there had been anything (she believed) was wrong she would have probably hid it. Nothing in the emails would indicate physical affair and to be honest not directly emotional... just a part of a pattern of a friendship that was building between my wife and 2 other men (with 1 more than the other). I obviously think this to be inappropriate in my marriage.

The hospital also purges email every 3 months... I am sure it is stored somewhere, but she doesn't have access to it after 3 months.

I know the general reaction by most is to say she at the minimum had an emotional affair. My wife is not generally wired that way... but is definitely more wired to just be friendly with everyone... but does tend to lean to men. Which leads to the boundary issues for me.

I am not a naive person... I have a difficult time trusting as it is... so I never just assume things... I look at the whole set of the data and the person.

These guys are no longer in town... they work 6 states away. I can't say they will never be back down for a future project, but for now they are not coming to town.

I have checked her personal phone / personal email and there are no phone calls or emails or texts to them... but I know you can delete those as well.

The only thing I can't check is her work stuff and she has to be willing to let me see it. Again I think she would now if I pushed for it.

I know everyone will immediately say she is hiding something. My un-trusting nature immediately feels this way as well. Maybe I'll bring it up with counselor today... but he is also encouraging trust.

He feels there definitely was a friendship between my wife and the two men, but he has not seen any direct evidence there was a physical affair and he doesn't classify anything as an emotional affair... he sees the definition as one dealing with physical desire and not just friendship. I believe he saw it as a risky relationship with weak boundaries, but he didn't believe it to be an affair. He has the benefit of also talking with her one on one... and maybe he would not tell me what she has said due to patient / doctor relationship, but I would not imagine he would lie and indicate he does not believe an affair (emotional by his definition or otherwise) took place.

Have you seen this?
The Risk of Opposite-sex Friendships in Marriage

Yes... she definitely had this last year. Does she still have a secret second life... there is no way for me to ever know her interactions with opposite sex without me witnessing it or there be physical proof... but at this point it is less likely a SSL is still going on. I do sense she still is more friendly with opposite sex in general than I care for (banter or teasing), but I don't sense something secretly going on at this point.

Can you afford a PI?

I believe in professional confidentiality too - but I would trust my spouse so far that he would not do anything to lose me my job!! Even Dr H's wife has full access to his counselling dealings. She runs his email!

She knows you aren't going to be indiscreet and lose her her job. She knows she can trust your discretion. She knows you wouldn't do anything but scan work stuff anyway.

It's an excuse and the fact that you are allowed access to everything but this one thing IS a major alarm bell to me. Why is it such a hot topic? It shouldn't bother her a bit.



I'm sorry but your counsellor is a moron with no clue whatsoever. He's probably heard that trust is good from a Hollywood movie but has no concept that trust is what SHE should be demonstrating, not something you should be giving away.

We see a lot of this clueless councillor stuff and Dr H's entire program and this forum was in part set up to help the victims of the brigade of clueless counsellors.

I mean an hour together, while tired, after the children's bedtime, not doing anything actually fun, is his idea of romance. It says it all doesn't it?

Has anyone in history ever fell in love like that?

Also anyone with any common sense can see your wife is not trustworthy and that you would be a fool to trust her.

I would not take the advice of someone who does not display common sense.

In regards to counselor... he is not saying 1 hour a night is the key to love... He is wanting us to at LEAST try and do that as a compromise. My wife does have sleep issues, she is on anti-depressant and meds do cause sleep problems (at times). So his 1 hour a night was a starting point. He has encouraged us to not be as busy with kids (soccer, swimming, and so on) to make more time. He has used Marriage Builders documentation (emotional needs) and (His needs Her Needs) and used some of what I have read here. Part of the issue has been the over all struggle in our marriage from both sides that I believe has led to resistance.

So right now the kids are in bed between 8 and 9 and my wife is almost always asleep at the latest by 10:00PM and in the past was normally around 9:30PM. Now lately she has been spending this time to read (I believe is her escape) and I don't want to deny her some (escape) time as I need that as well... but I think more time together will do us much better than reading 6 nights of the week and giving only 1 night of time that we are getting at the moment.

<<addicted to admiration>>
You may be correct her in regards to her desire for admiration. But he doesn't want to be admired... that is a natural desire, but I know it can be unhealthy and clearly effect a marriage.

My counselor has not said to blindly trust or to blindly let things happen. He is PUSHING for us to have positive love bank deposits, try to save tough discussions for counseling room, and build the feeling of love. He wants us to have as much harmony and peace and do life together during the week and we can have discussions during our appointment so it doesn't get out of hand as it has in the past.

Again in regards to trust... he does believe it takes time for that to build and experience and consistency. So he wants me to watch and as she builds the trust and as experience shows she is abiding by agreements and putting up better boundaries that I provide more trust or another way of saying it is have more confidence my wife is protecting our marriage.

Everyone needs to understand that although I see what everyone is saying and I see how things look and that I believe the relationships were inappropriate at the minimum ... but don't discount that I have hurt her with my bitterness and resentment way before the friendships with these 2 guys took place. I am not saying I excuse any of the behavior at all... I am saying that I am a part of the equation of her not feeling loved. Again not an excuse for her actions.

No... and to be honest the only time my wife is not where I can see her is at work. Outside of work we are either all together with kids or I am with kids at one sporting event and she is with other at another sporting event where I have friends at who would share with me something if they saw her being inappropriate.

This doesn't reassure me in the slightest about your counsellor. It's pretty clear his knowledge of MB is incredibly amateurish. He's using materials he doesn't understand.

You've seen how your counsellor's version of trust is a complete u-turn from Dr H's position. Dr H has been lied to by so many waywards who pretended to be honest that he never encourages a fearful spouse have that kind of trust for people with poor boundaries. Only a fool would.

Also, no one with knowledge of MB would even entertain such a 'compromise'. A minimum of 15 FUN hours a week ON DATES is what is required for ordinary, fairly happy couples. Recovery from an affair is more like 20-25 hours and it is UA time which is never to take place in the house - ever!

Dr H wouldn't take any couples who refused to do this, because 'a compromise' would not work. He'd tell them to save their money for a babysitter or a nice dinner because that would be more effective.

All your time together is spent in-house on dull, inadequate time. Or being bullied in counselling. On a foundation of distrust which no one is solving - you are not snooping, she is not being transparent.
Also he's probably counselling you in the same room instead of separately causing disagreements.

He should wear a mask when he takes your money out of shame.

That is madness. Why don't you simply change your schedule?

Also it isn't your friends responsibility to protect your marraige and spend time with your wife!

I'm getting the impression that you schedule eveything ELSE before you prioritise each other. Then whatever scraps are left over are what you give each other.

Take a look

Beware of Bad Counselors [/quote]

Your counsellor is trying to bully you into being OK with a situation that would make anyone insecure and very worried.

He brushes off her attempts to seek the affirmation of other men as nothing and he counsels trust. Even if it WERE harmless (which it's absoultely not) - he isn't listening to how hurt this makes you.



I've never met a wayward who doesn't adore the idea of counselling. In their eyes they can explore all the faults of the BS who 'made them' have an affair. They can also bully them into a very twisted idea of what trust is supposed to be.

All too often they achieve their goals because either the counsellor is clueless about their aims or the counsellors have learned it is a cash cow. Unfixable marriages are lucrative.

Can your counsellor refer you to a truly recovered marrriage he is responsible for? What is his success rate?

Here we see many of Dr H's recovered marriages daily. Markos and Prisca are one!

I totally agree in regards to email.
I totally agree in regards to time together and needing "proper time" to build love.

I however am obviously not giving enough detail about what my counselor is sharing or not clearly stating it.

He is not saying and never said to blindly trust.
He makes it clear it has to be earned... and I am to watch and see what she changes and how she will change.
He has stated she must earn it... NOT me freely giving.
He has stated that I have clear reasons to not trust and that she has done some serious damage (but so have I).
He has stated that we must start building the love banks.
He has stated we must minimize the love bank withdrawals and do our best to stop a tough conversation and use the counseling venue to help work through some of those issues.
He did help facilitate the Boundary Agreement we have in place. Yes I wish she totally agreed with it and believed as I do, but for now I have to start with the fact that she is following it fairly well.
He has clearly stated he sees resistance in both of us to work on areas we need to... there is most definitely some bitterness that both of us are fighting from past hurts. Getting past this bitterness is tough right now. For BOTH of us.

He has also clearly stated that she has broken trust in major ways multiple times. No doubts about it. He said no one gets a pass... if there is an issue we deal with it... we don't just act like it didn't happen.

I have trust issues anyway due to past hurts from my broken home as a child and past dating relationships before marriage... so we need to make sure that overtime when trust has been earned that I do allow that trust to be earned and not go the opposite way and say nothing you can do will ever earn trust.

The counselor worked diligently to help build an agreement where she "out of deference to me" adjust her behaviors with opposite sex even though she may not fully agree that some things we don't do are wrong.

If I understand my wife correctly she believes it is not wrong to have opposite sex friendships. Now I also believe we can have an opposite sex friends, but obviously my boundaries are very focused so usually any women I consider a friend is also my wife's friend and I don't do things alone with her or just call her to talk or go to lunch or whatever. I share about any interactions I have so my wife is aware and the few times a year my work does a coed outing (project milestone celebration, training, business lunch) or whatever I tell my wife before or immediately after. I am an open book basically. I even shared with her how I felt I was getting to close to one of our mutual female friends a long while back during one of our earlier struggles in marriage and I adjusted it to be appropriate.

I think part of the rub is my wife feels like I am saying having lunch with a OS friend is WRONG where as I am not saying it is morally WRONG... I am saying it is risky and for ME... it is a boundary violation that hurts me and because I am her husband and it does hurt me that I don't want it to continue and at that point I find it wrong if she does continue. And overall I found things wrong as we agreed before and during marriage of how we would handle relationships with OS, but she didn't follow that last year.

I am not saying that a teasing statement or light banter is morally WRONG... but I am saying it can be risky and lead on to other things if unchecked.

That is why I simply choose to keep pretty strong boundaries.

My wife was raised in an area where everyone was just very friendly with everyone else... very outgoing... very friendly... but can be without impure thoughts or any inappropriate desires.

So I have to try and realize that it is probably more difficult for her to try and tone back friendliness with opposite sex as it is for me to tone back being overly detailed.

I know I can go back to the first post and shrink it to 3 paragraphs... but I am wired to provide detail and have to really work to cut out detail. My wife is wired to be more friendly and outgoing and doesn't see her friendliness as being inappropriate... especially if she doesn't have any desire or impure thoughts in her mind... just being an outgoing, bubbly friendly person.

I don't want her to change her personality... I want her to change her behavior with opposite sex so that she can still be a friendly person, but have a hedge of protection that doesn't encourage inappropriate behavior from another man or lead him to think something is more there than there is.

I can be the same way as my wife and was the same way to a certain extent as a single man... meaning I could flirt with the best of them... but when I became married I chose to change that way of acting... change my behavior... not my personality... my wife will have to choose it as well... but I know it will be harder for her than it was for me. I have never seen her ever be sexual or make sexual comments to other men... I have seen other men make statements before and she gets embarrassed.

It is indeed generally kids stuff and then what is left is us. It does need to change. I personally believe in God First, Wife Second, kids Third and so on.

It is also possible I am not clearly articulating what he is guiding me on. I go to him once a week, my wife goes once a week and then we both go together.

Listen... our counselor is pushing us for more time, more time, more time. He is pushing date night regularly... he is pushing for a lot of things I see on this site.

BUT... both of us have to be following his coaching and guidelines and I can promise you both of us have done things to either sabotage or hinder progression. There is pride, selfishness and so on that are all part of the mix from both of us.

So even if it was Dr H himself... until the individuals both do their parts it can be a slow process. And both of us have struggled.

In regards to trust... are you saying one can NEVER earn trust? Yes... I believe I have earned TRUST, but I also have no problem with anyone validating that trust. But I do believe I earn it and continue to earn it. So I do believe my wife can come to earn it and earn it on an ongoing basis.

Also out of what I have shared and what I know as fact about my wife's relationship (not speculation) what classifies it as an emotional affair to you.

For me it is simply the fact that she built a friendship relationship with another (2 men) in secret and because she knew I wouldn't like it and because she built a closer friendship than she had with me and spent more energy in the relationship with them.

If I were to make the same statement, it would be God first, then my marriage, and then my kids, and so on. Do you see the subtle difference? I am concerned about my marriage, both of us, and not just my wife. I am equally concerned for both my wife's happiness and my own happiness at the same time.

It is important to understand that a healthy marriage involves balancing you own giver and taker, too. Anything less is sacrifice, which then makes a successful marriage unsustainable.

The counselor has NEVER said to be OK with things. However... when a spouse is unwilling to do something or doesn't agree then that spouse must be willing to work with the other spouse. The counselor can't force it, I can't force it, and my wife can't force me.

Do not discount the amount of resentment, bitterness, and anger that has built by both of us before the inappropriate friendships.

I know I have been resistant in certain areas to change because of this and I know my wife has too. Yes... the counselor clearly states I have made the most changes and was the most active. Remember I read His Needs Her Needs the first couple of days he gave it to us. My wife took about 3 months to get to it. She was resistant.

He again does not BULLY me into being ok with anything. He has NEVER said to be ok with anything.

He counsels about earning trust and building trust NOT freely giving it. He does agree in open book policy... he does agree with open communication... I agree with most things he coaches us on... but if there is resistance to doing something by either one of us for whatever reason then it will hinder healing and that is not on him... that is on me or my wife and our willingness. Yes... I have been very willing and my wife has been resistant... but there are times my hurt leads to me being resistant as well.

I don't know his "success rates"... we do know of a handful of marriages from personal friends that have recovered with his help.

You are correct... I normally would have said marriage... I am here at work so I am feverishly typing and throwing out my thoughts in the brief moments I have. I do agree.

There ARE some very few truly MB compatible counsellors. Yours isn't one of them. This is the critical mistake most people make. Most people say 'we are doing some of it' or 'a lot of it'. The plan is a very accurate recipe and you cannot skip even ONE bit or gloss even one stage or cut the amount of UA time without courting disaster. Dr Harley himself uses the words "narrow path" and describes short cuts as "disastrous". Skipping just one thing is like leaving the flour out of a cake.

If you're meeting in your counsellor's office once a week and not agreeing, you're withdrawing love units during that time. You are falling OUT of love in that time. Judging by your description of UA time, you are not building romantic love at all at any other time either. In short, it's not fun when you two are together. So one hour withdrawing love units weekly, no hours depositing them.

With zero hours building love, and no boundaries around other men - this means that pretty much any man she speaks to is a more fun experience than you are. Being out of love is also one of the biggest danger zones for an affair.

There's been no EPs implemented since her A. So another A or a continuation of that one is a given. Your counsellor hasn't even addressed this very serious danger!

You also haven't snooped, so for all you know she had a full blown romantic affair, sexual or otherwise and is still in love with another man. Such a contrast effect would be disastrous for you and you aren't even aware of whether this is the full picture.

It's a disaster and your counsellor is using a pea shooter to take down a lion-sized catalogue of problems.

However snooping would get you the full picture and the true plan can then be implemented. I'd plan to dispense with the counsellor once you have done some snooping. Doing so now would raise her suspicions.




Of course she can! That is our goal here at MB. To achieve a situation where she stops demanding trust for the purposes of secrecy and starts earning it for the purposes of transparency.


You aren't going to get it in debates with her. You are demanding something from her which makes her very uncomfortable and which will put an end to happy fun flirty admiration time.

So just go get it. Snoop for dear life. Then show her that a) you can't be fooled but b) you are going to respond reasonably and c) persist in getting transparency.

Demanding the truth from her over and over is just withdrawing regular lovebank units and achieving nothing. If you snoop, yes it will withdraw some, but you will do it quickly and effectively like a band aid before achieving a platform to rebuild trust on.

His Needs Her Needs is a great book which is wholly inappropriate if there has been even any kind of an affair. Dr H has said on numerous occasions it should not be read by anyone who has been in any type of affair.

The emphasis is on needs, not Extraordinary Precautions. That's what is making you so unhappy - no boundaries.

This is why snooping is so important. You can't resolve the problem with the incorrect diagnosis.

From the sound of it, he'd probably be OK if you had the full picture and I wish he had counselled you to snoop. However even an OK counsellor costs money and I would rather spend the money on an properly up to speed MB coach or simply more babysitters.

I really agree with you here and I find her behaviour very worrying.

I don't believe her version of events at all. If she was going out to have her needs met by men and it never went further than feeling pleasantly friendly, she wouldn't have gotten worried enough to even tell you, much less decide she needs marriage counselling.

She was either in love or highly tempted. This has freaked her out. I believe the contact continues.

Her detached, would-rather-read-a-book attitude is sadly, textbook. Usually women who are not getting needs met ANYWHERE are desperate to work on the marriage and carry out a counsellor's recommendations. They thirst for UA time. It's a worry and a red flag that she is checked out.


I think she haas been very carelessly been playing with fire for a loooong time. Please, please snoop and save her from herself.

Then the crux of the matter is who's definition of affair do we go by? I studied a large number of sites and about 50% would say it was an emotional affair (with or without sexual desire... it didn't matter) and 50% would say it was heading in that path or at the very least there was a friendship built between 2 men and it was a high risk situation heading in the wrong direction

My counselor wouldn't classify it as an affair based on everything he heard and everything he got from my wife when they spoke. But I also don't recall him saying anything about it being good for the marriage. It's been almost 10 months since this all happened so hard to remember exactly how he put it.

And don't forget I have definitely caused hurt from my end before all of this... she feels I am judgmental at times and that I don't edify her. So I believe at times she avoids time as she may want to avoid conflict or any negative feelings. It is something I have always known... she avoids difficult things... which is one reasons she lied about friendships... she knew I would not like it and instead of saying she didn't see a problem with OS friends she hid it to avoid arguing about it. Up until this point we were NOT feeling love with one another for quite a while.

Yes... I believe anyone can fail (including me) and fall into an affair (emotional or sexual).

These guys live 6 states away... I see no evidence of anything at this point. Yes... I haven't seen her work email and I'll look into that.

Her story about her work emails stinks.


Is her phone password locked? Do you have access to her phone records?

I would stop grilling her about these men and start getting serious about snooping . If you don't, I predict that you will not make any progress in your M. And your W will continue to not want to spend time with you, because she is not in love with you - she is getting her needs met elsewhere.

If you are not going to take the advice about snooping, that is fine but please let us know. I have limited time to post these days and I would prefer to help someone that is interested in learning/following MB.

Susie,

I have been looking and keeping my eye on things... the only thing I have not seen is the work email... I will work on this.

The thing that I noticed about people who post the level of detail that you have provided (extensive background etc) is that they seem to not realize that their WS and situation is just like everyone else who posts here with a WS.

Your situation is not special. You have a WS (SSL + IB + poor boundaries around members of opposite sex) It doesn't even really matter if this was an almost EA, EA or PA. Your WW had crossed the line several times and if this is not nipped in the bud, you are going to be looking at the affair continuing with either or both of these men or another A into the future.

How do I nip this in the bud, you may be asking? Stop grilling her and talking to her about "trust" with the counselor and start snoop, while meeting her ENs and avoiding LBs.

When you have a spouse that has a history of a SSL and As, that is the only way you are going to know what is going on. And without proof, all she's going to do is deny deny and deny which you have already seen.

It would be easier if you answered questions directly - yes or no.

I asked if you had access to the phone records and if her phone was password locked.

I am also not grilling her or even talking to her about these men. They have been gone from town for months and live 6 states away. They were consultants and were in and out of their office over a year period.

We have a boundary agreement in place to prevent us from getting into same spot... of course assuming she abides by it and I am able to see she is abiding by it. Which so far she has been as best as I know.

yes... she still is too friendly in my mind with new coworker at times based on some of the conversations she has shared with me, but she appears to have curbed a lot.

I don't have password or access to records to the work phone.

Again, is her cell phone password locked?

Its a terrible idea for your counsellor to diagnose it on the basis of her highly incredulous story. Independent verification in the form of snooping is required.



Her description of your failings just sounds like textbook justification. YES you haven't done all you could but this is like criticising someone for not finishing the decor when they are setting fire to the home. No one forced her to have an open door policy with other men. That's the five bell alarm situation.

His living far away is the typical set up too I'm afraid. That only serves the fantasy.

It's great you're not grilling her but you need to find out independently.

Being 'less open' to other men is still open. This isn't a learning curve you two will survive particularly if she's already had an EA.

Is it an affair.... DID it cause HARM to your marriage? YES! Affair.Please read this and stop trying to define this and call it for what it is.
If you can not agree on what is an affair, you are in for more and more.

Again: From "What is an Affair". What is an Affair http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8501_fft.html

"Discussions (or arguments) about what to include or exclude from the definition of marital infidelity is an effective way to get lost down a path where "Left Brainers" typically dwell and where "Right Brainers" typically get offended.
The bottom line to the question is, "Specifically, what was it about the inappropriate relationship' that caused the damage in the marriage?" Was it the sex ([insert definition here]), the emotional bond, the amount of time spent together, the physical attraction? What was it? Talk about it. Get a clear understanding. If you don't understand how or why it happened and why it hurt the spouse, the probability of it happening again is very high.

Asking others to define the term for you is not the answer. If you boil it all down, you are left with the fact that you both need to work together in developing a plan to prevent this "beast" from ever attacking your marriage again. If you don't know what it looks like, if you don't know where it hides, if you don't know what its touch feels like, then how will you ever protect your marriage from its venom again? "

Here's an idea, you can ask the guy who wrote the books for free! He usually sends a copy of what he feels is the most appropriate to his callers. If you include your number he may even call you up and chat to you about your case.

I'd tell him the conversation your wife had with you when she said she had been lying and meeting men for lunch, that she was having needs met but she doesn't view this as an affair and claims it never reached a sexual point. That she felt this required counselling.

However I'd say you aren't making progress in counselling due to your wife's greater reluctance. That you don't have access to x, y and z and that she cites work confidentiality as the cause. Then tell him your working through HNHN and struggle to get your wife's attention to spend the hour with you after the children are in bed recommended by the counsellor. Her claims that you dont edify her etc.

Dr H has great experience and insight with withdrawn spouses.

My feeling is though that Susie has already nailed it:

Email your questions to Joyce Harley at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com.





A SSL is a most hurful thing. A year. A whole year.

MSM: I am very sorry you are in the situation you are in. I just want to convey the fact that from outsiders... we feel for you. You are a victim.
Whether or not you ever want to call what happened to you an affair or not is irrelevant to me. You are suffering all the signs and symptoms in your marriage as the worst Physical affair out there.

It is painful.
It hurts your marriage.
You feel like you are going in circles while being told your making progress.
Your wife is throwing your crumbs and you are accepting it.

The saddest thing is that you can't see that yet. You suffer greatly and your marriage looks like 99 percent of all the other marriages after an affair look like. You don't know what that looks like yet so you can't see it.

I suggest you download "How to survive an Affair" from the Dr. right away, read it and let it sink in. You will get a clearer picture and I believe will help give you a clear path forward.

I also suggest if you would like: Email the Dr. Harley himself.... Email your questions to Joyce Harley at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com.

I thought I answered this with "I don't have password". It is locked. They are required to have it locked by hospital.

I plan to ask to see her emails again and her phone again.

Ok... where do I find the meaning of all the acronyms. I know most, but a few are foreign to me.

<< WS (SSL + IB + poor boundaries...) >>

What is WS and what is IB (inappropriate behavior?).

SSL: Secret Second Life

IB: Independent Behavior

WS: Wayward Spouse

If you go to the notable post forum and look up acronyms and abbreviations it is all there.

WS = Wayward Spouse
SSL - Secret Second Life
IB = Independent Behaviour (the decision to do something unapproved of and lie about it/ignore their spouse's concern)

Susie is stressing that she has behaved however she pleases, in secret, for a long period of time. It's more than enough time to develop very deep feelings for these people and the secret will have created distance with you and closeness with others.

She's also practiced at lying because it was hidden the whole time. That's why asking her for her version of events is not satisfactory because no doubt you were asking her about her day and her true feelings the whole time, but she didn't admit it.

My concern is that she didn't confess when she FIRST decided it was OK to get her needs met by other men. She only confessed after a long period in doing so.

The question is why, and I think, sadly, it was because her affair died a natural death.

Which means that it will have peaked some time before that.

Independent Behaviour and Dishonety are two of the major lovebusters.

Surviving my H's affair (PA and EA) wasn't so much disgust about the sex, or the romance, it was more about having to force my mind back to a period of time and 'fill in all the blanks' in retrospect.

That's a horrible job and one you no doubt try and do because you know your memory is incorrect due to a long period of lies.

Most BS's say the lies and the disregard hurt more than anything that was done or spoken between two fools and that is EXACTLY what you have experienced.

It's kind of rich that she is saying you don't edify her when you are reeling from such an extended period of dishonesty.

Ultimately only my wife and God know what the extent of the friendship(s) were and if it ever went beyond feelings of friendship. My wife is not a very emotional type of person so I have no problems seeing her build a friendship, but not get emotionally attached.

I know... you are probably freaking out saying he doesn't get it. No I get it... but I cannot attribute and set in stone that X or Y happened that I don't know happened. I can only go by what I know happened and deal with here and now and move forward. I know what pain I feel for what has happened so far that I know of and that she admitted to.

She didn't have to admit to anything and she definitely admitted to things she knew would hurt me deeply, but felt she had to tell the truth. Now yes... she could tell some and not other information... I get that.

Anyway... I don't want to argue over things I cannot prove and will never be able to prove. I can deal with where we are now... deal with current actions... determine if anything is still happening with these other men by checking things... and keep moving forward.

Yes... I struggle with that feeling... so you want me to edify... then stop doing things that hurt me / us and start making the time so we can grow. Yes I get that.

We however were having struggles for several years BEFORE anything took place so the edification is a need she has and should have been getting more of before. Take it for what it is. Regardless of dishonesty... I need to edify where I can to help fill the love bank... yes?

I agree that this is the priority. However you're wrong that's what's gone is gone never to resurface.

Hidden things grow, they don't disappear. The trail is there, all you have to do is look.

Just as Susie Q said - snoop, avoid LB, make deposits.

Hi MySacredMarriage,
Why don't you ask your wife to take a polygraph.
Then you will know all the truth about past and present.

This will help both of you with trust issues and will help her stop lying in the future. After the first polygraph, agree to have the next one in 6 months or so. This will help her to stop lying and withholding info.

There is no way to have a marriage like this with all her lies and without trust and with weak boundaries around men. It's way too painful for you. If the truth is not out, how can the marriage be rebuilt?

The only thing I have not snoooped is the work email and I will work on that. Sounds like we are all waiting for a new big dark secret to come out... If I find something new I will definitely come back and share.

Right now I have to build the love bank and apparently I suck at it or I turn things into a negative somehow.

For example earlier she called and was telling me about the kids schedule. We are looking at 5 out of 7 days of some sort of sporting event and 3 of those 5 we would be separated. I am torn as I want kids to enjoy some sports, but they won't enjoy much if their parents can't get it together. But I clearly want more time with my wife so I say the following:

"We have too much going on. We have almost no time as it is to build our marriage. We have too many days of kids doing things."

She responds... "that is why we are taking a break Friday's. I would like Friday's to be our FAMILY evening(including kids)."

I respond... "so that means we have 5 out of 7 days doing something every night instead of 6 out of 7. That really is not much better. We are suppose to be doing the 8 to 9 time and then some after, but that is only happening about 1 time a week. Yes you may pause to take a 5 minute breaking reading and say something to me or maybe when you get to the end of reading you pause for 5 minutes to share a few kids schedule things... but in the end those 5 minute things only build up to about 1 to 2 hours a week. I want more time with us together"

Her response... "well if we could have more positive times then maybe we could have more time."

My response... "So if we have a tough conversation or even an easy one about our relationship or a concern or a hurt then it is negative and because it is negative you avoid having time? Wouldn't it make more sense to have much more time together so we have enough time to deal with any conflict or hurt and also have enough time to enjoy for the remainder of it. I can see if we only have 1 hour a week spread out through the week and we have a tough conversation sometime in that mix that maybe you wouldn't want to experience that again, but we can't run from these things... we have to push forward and get through the hurt and move to good things by having more good time."

I obviously frustrated her and she was on the defense. She said that there were some responses she could give, but knew it would not be helpful so she will hold her tongue. I don't get it... maybe she disagrees on the amount of time we have so I will start using my watch or phone to start timing it if that is what it takes for her to realize it is very little time. Maybe I put her on the defense by referencing her reading. I don't know. I know I wasn't speaking in an ugly tone and just sharing my desire.

Maybe one of you can see where I might have went wrong.

It was not clear to me...that's why I asked you to answer yes or no.

First I have ever heard of an employee being required to use a hospital issued cell phone and to be password locked. That's mighty convenient if you ask me.

Dr Harley would tell you that she either gives you the password anyway or she find another job. She should probably not work there anyway because of the two men you told us about.

I agree with IG that your counselor is steering you wrong.

Among some other issues that were other pointed out and some that weren't, Dr Harley would be looking very closely at her job.

(1) Affairs are very common in the medical field. It's risky for good marriages....not a good idea for someone who has a track record of seeking the attentions from the opposite sex.
(2) The job prevents transparency and OM1 and 2 work there.

She needs a different job.

You said you wanted more time together and she insulted you to avoid it.

Sorry but I've been there when the way you breathe is incorrect. Having to discuss real life problems - It simply doesn't measure up to when they've been having such problem-free, reality-free sympathy-based fun fests with other people.

That said I would tweak one thing, which is to cut off the debate a bit earlier. Avoid love bank deposits by being too lectury (even if she is being insutling) Like so:

This I would leave the same:



At this juncture, WELCOME the complaint. Expect lots, too.

"Honey I would love that! What do you suggest? I would like a real romantic time at xxxxx (name a place she loves/good memory)

She will say no very likely. But offering will make a deposit and defensiveness will make withdrawals.

Also, once you start welcoming her complaints with open arms, be prepared for her to get huffy about that.

The complaints are designed to keep you in victim mode and to keep the negativity alive.

If you are negative then she isn't the bad one.

Be persistently hard to insult!

Oh and whenever she says no; Smile and accept it as her right. Like the confident man who knows he will get the date some time.

Susie,

You may have missed it... OM1 and OM2 were consultants that came in on average 1 week a month. And then near go live for project they may be there for several weeks. They did communicate via email on work regularly... out of all the emails that went back and forth they were not ALL playful. But clearly a friendship was there. It would look like the type of friendship that a single person might have, but didn't look like love interest "yet". At least that is how it looked to me and many times the email was to both guys and not just one... although OM1 is the one that really concerned me.

She NOW works with a guy OM3 in the same room and on same projects regularly. This guy's wife works down the hall. He is a gregarious Puerto Rican gentleman that from what she has shared with me does do some banter back and forth. She is honest that sometimes there is playful banter (not sexual). What one may call teasing. She says that happens at times, but is not a regular thing. I understand that is her word and no way I can validate.

I agree but I'm tempted to say he shouldn't make a big deal while he is snooping. Waywards slip up. If she's comfortable he would never snoop, as history has proven, she might put info somewhere else, unprotected by a password, where he can see it.

You know more about in-depth SSL's though....

Thank you... that was good. I will definitely need to bounce more of this sort of thing out here and make sure I do everything I can to remove negativity or anything that can be used against me. That will be difficult as the hurt and open wounds have not healed and things are so tender with my heart I struggle not to allow that to come out in other ways.

It's what she doesnt say that concerns me:

"After several years of unhappiness I reached a point where I became needy for other company (why then) I've been lying to you for a year. I've now decided this was your fault (why all of a sudden). Nothing happened but we need counselling (why if everything she experienced elsewhere was so ultra normal) I want you to edify me but if you try I will block all attempts"

Her story has more holes in than swiss cheese.

Please do, she will be a tough cookie I predict.

I really do feel the SSL has moved on since around 08/13. She has been more honest with me and with her thoughts in the last 3 months than ever before. Yes some things hurt, but I rather have her be truthful with her beliefs or thoughts than lies to keep out pain or discomfort. But I am keeping my eyes open and will continue looking.

Will work on that one! It is so hard to smile and accept it when in my mind I am thinking why would you say no or not want to do something to build the marriage or whatever... but then again my response of "why would you..." probably makes her feel judged or comes across as love buster. So need to avoid that.

It won't come naturally. But you are a smart man and know where your poker face is. You must have used it in dating, just because you don't expect to use it in marriage doesn't mean you can't.

Be James Bond.

Yes... I see the holes... she did want counseling a couple of years earlier and my pride got in the way. I felt we should be able to work out of the funk ourselves. I always will consider myself like the chief of sinners as Paul writes in the Bible. I know my own pride, my own selfishness, my own anger, my own struggles and they are not pretty.

Again NO EXCUSE for her actions, but she did want to go way before all of this.

Now my wife is definitely good at the poker face... but I generally know when it is a poker face. Me on the other hand... have almost always wore my heart on my sleave... or at the most you knew if I was ticked or hurt.

The sad thing is I am a very difficult man to get angry... but it seems my wife has the combination... just like I know I have it for her. My anger only comes out with hurt... I just don't naturally get angry. Maybe it makes no sense.

Anyway... that is one thing she did ask for a while back... that when we have a difficult spot to not let it keep me in a negative place (mainly for the kids), but overall. But I always felt like it was me saying if I act ok then I am saying it is ok.

But I see the value in what you are saying and do need to not let struggles pull me down and sort of prevent me from continuing to build love bank.

What is the snooping plan? I thought I saw him say he's going to ask the W to show him the phone. That won't work.

What are you going to do to snoop?

The way that she's got it all set up, it will be impossible for him to catch her. Maybe if he puts a VAR in the car for a week or two. I got the sense that he was unwilling to do that.

What say you, OP?

Do they still work at the same company, regardless of whether they are consultants? They still have access to each other via work email?

Don't sweat it, the garden variety counsellor would have made things worse anyway. Plus I'm suspicious of counsellor requests as they are so vague as to what the problem is and tend to come from waywards. Normal women say: "hey buster I want more x, y and z by x date or I'm looking at divorce lawyers."



My suspicion is she's using the password protected phone at these sporting events. It would be easy for her to text in the crowd or slip off to take a phone call. I'm sure careful questioning would reveal she is missing quite a lot of what she's there to see. My suggestion would be to put a VAR in her car as she must sometimes have phone conversations there, safe in the knowledge the records can't be seen. Or she'd use her car at lunch with the current coworkers if that's still happening. Maybe a GPS too.

I think he should ask for the password too, but maybe not for a week so he can snoop while appearing unperturbed for a bit. Falsely lulling a sense of security.

Two love bank deposit ideas:

1) talk to her about what she sees at these sporting events. Not only for detective purposes, but FC is clearly a high need. If she gets defensive etc tell your story of your event, be entertaining, proud and the one thing no other man can ever be - a great dad to your kids. Slip in a sly compliment 'just like his mom' etc.

2) I'm not a fan of your counselling sessions but it is a good way to hold her hostage for a bit and make love bank deposits. Completely ignore the agenda to discuss problems, and just talk about why you love her and paint pictures of all the wonderful things you want to do with her. When she makes jabs (away from the counsellor or with him) just talk about how thrilled you are that she now comes to you with these complaints and you'd love to resolve them. If all else fails, a sympathetic hmmmm and looking as though you are really listening should do.

Here.
Acronyms and Abbreviations

Already been done.
GPS tracking shows she goes where she says she is going in the car. Already been done.

EDIT: Just realized VAR is voice recorder. I haven't done this, but not opposed.

The only thing I have not had access to is her work email and phone. And one night without warning I will ask her to open it up for me.

No... they are consultants that work for the software company the hospital uses. And yes... they could be emailing back and forth via work. Again... I am going to get access and put this to rest.

Ok... just realized what VAR meant... didn't see it on the acronym page. I am not opposed to doing it.

Here, VAR

Last night my daughter had swim practice and she asked me to take the 2 boys and help with practice tests for school. I always do this as I try to do everything I can to help with kids, home, and so on. So I took the boys and she took daughter to swim practice.

I decided I was just going to make a clear request and see what happens in regard to having some time together. I texted her and asked if we could have our 8 to 9 time tonight. The 8 to 9 just means try to get at least an hour of time together sometime after kids are in bed.

She texted back and said yes, asked what I wanted to do during that time and asked if I could move the laundry from washer to dryer.

I took care of boys and washer / dryer. I didn't have a plan on exactly what we would do. But I just wanted time "together" and then just talk about our day and life in general.

So she came home and as usual there isn't a strong connectedness, but that is the point of having time together. So she comes downstairs with me at 8:55 and I asked her questions about work which led to things with my work and so forth. I showed interest in her job and I made a conscious effort to not let any conversation that involved OS coworkers concern me... she does have to work with them... and I simply planned on doing life with her.

She lasted 39 minutes before she started fading as she does have issues staying awake and always have. Sometimes she can stay up later if doing something active, but sitting on a couch she does fade quick. Been that way 15+ years. But honestly on the nights she reads... when she stays up later... it does show me she can do it if it is something she really wants to do like read. But I need to stay positive as I could easily point this out, but my guess is that would be a love buster.

The point is... it was positive... although love banks are technically in the red at the moment... but there was a deposit and hopefully for her as well.

We went to bed and I asked if I could hold her until she went to sleep and she is fine with this. She has never said no... but I know there are plenty of times I didn't feel like it due to hurt.

So I held her about 10 minutes until she was good and snoring and was going to go do some work... but then fell asleep myself.

She literally works across the street from me... I can see her building so I asked her if she could take a walk with me shortly. She said she is working on a specific issue that has to be resolved and if she can get it resolved before our couple's counseling today then she would go and walk with me.

Trying my best to add to love bank and to stay positive.

I'd describe you as in Plan A - you have a reluctant spouse and you are talking her into spending time with you. What you're doing currently doesn't really count towards building the lovebank. That has to be done on fun dates when you aren't tired! It's more of a pre-plan to make real rebuilding possible.

It's real typical of women who are out of love that they don't want conversation/affection they want fatherhood stuff and chores. Good on you for persevering and getting her to talk.

Listening to her was good, but you want to making little pennies of love deposits right through the day.

What does she like? What are her interests? What little gestures can you give her. Think cups of tea/coffee, small gifts, flowers... notes, compliments. It adds up.

My wife is actually more like a guy in some respects. Meaning she is not this lovey dovey person in general. I remember going on a date seeing a movie that would produce strong emotion (love interest dying or something like that) and I remember me fighting back the tears with all I had in that movie... she on the other hand... looked cool as a cucumber.

My point is I know she is not a big lovey dovey type person... and she is definitely has some male traits. I am more of the emotional love kind of guy... but she needs admonishment, acceptance, and truthfully conversation. We did the emotional needs questionnaire and I need to re-read her answers again.

I think it was Family Commitment, Admiration, Honesty and Openness, and Domestic Support. I will go double check.

But I am in the plan of trying to provide the types of things you are talking about and focus on what she really likes.

So this morning I asked her to take a walk and she was able to take a break and we walk around block for 10 minutes. I asked her about her morning and she shared her struggles and issues. I mainly listened and asked questions.

She said she was able to get a baby sitter for Saturday from 1:00PM to 7:00PM. She wants to be back by 7:00PM so we can have an hour or so with kids. Unfortunately that night is camp out night with kids so that cuts out physical intimacy as an option. Maybe I can get camp night switched to Friday... unless she is willing to be physically intimate that night. We only have that once ever 2 weeks at the moment.

Anyway... I want to make sure I have not painted the picture of no willingness... yes it was very low willingness up until about March... and there is still resistance... especially if we had a bad discussion.

Anyway... I am trying to do everything I can to prevent those and keep my "horse - emotions" in check. I am going to re-read His Needs / Her Needs and then read Love Busters after I finish another book I am reading... just removed the name as I realized the forum rules didn't want other books pointed out.

Well I pride myself on being able to meet the needs of a typical guy! Admiration is a good one. If someone has an admiration need (I do) they gobble up compliments like bar snacks. Usually someone with male energy needs fun recreation - which unfortunately she may be getting at sporting events away from you. A good reason to make it a topic of conversation as a starter to sharing that together.

I like the walk and talks. That's good. Notes and gifts don't have to be the affection need, they can be funny or silly.



I'm surprised that's on the table at all right now. Unless your wife is more like a guy in more ways than one. Usually women need the romantic love threshold to be high to get anything out of sex (so quite a few weeks into spending 15hrs+ fun UA time). If she's at all reluctant and it isn't super passionate, don't accept it. It's false coin. Hold off until a later date. So-so feelings lead to a less than great experience sexually on the feminine side and that's hard to get out of because the brain learns to expect that. You need to treat it like dating and wait for the right time.

Admiration I believe might have been in her top 3 needs. My struggle has always been... if you are doing things that hurt the marriage it makes it harder for me to come up with edification or admiration comments. Maybe some ideas from this discussion will help me get things flowing.

In regards to physical intimacy... it is in my top 3 and at this time she is the only one initiating it... meaning I am not and I wait on her. So she only initiates if she is willing and feels connected enough to do so. It has been a struggle though. She definitely tends to "control" it and that is honestly difficult for me. There have been several times where her sexual need was met, but mine not yet and she would start to get very controlling... hard to explain... and I just let the session stop. Very frustrating to me... I desire for this to be a very mutual and special.

I get what you are saying as so-so feelings for me definitely makes it a less than great experience. I don't have a desire unless I am feeling emotionally connected.

Thanks

I meant to add... no she is definitely not like a guy in this respect. When it happens she has stated she always enjoyed herself... and the physical signs support this. But she has always had a low drive and begin pre-menopausal it is probably less.

Well... today after a rough counseling session I asked her straight up if she was still having any sort of relationship with either of the two male consultants. She said that both of them needed help on a project and she had been helping them (via phone) as they are multiple states away. I asked if this was a project that benefited her hospital or just something that benefited the consultant's company. And the answer was it was for the consultant's company. I asked why is she helping on a project that isn't benefiting her company... was she doing it, because of the relationship she had with them. She said no... that they routinely help out as they were one of the main hospitals for this company and it is cleared by her management to do it.

I then tell her I want to see all of the emails and have access to her phone... I tell her I know in the past that she said I couldn't, but she needs to make the decision to allow it. She said she would.

She said "You can have free access to those emails. I know my anger over this is not justifiable so I won't talk about this until I can without anger or defensiveness. So you can read them knowing I won't speak about it then go ahead"

I told her Radical honesty and openness is critical for our marriage. Not sure she gets this. She says things like that sounds good, but...

So we get to the computer and she opens it up and prints out a couple of emails and says I can look at those. I said no... I told her to hand me the computer and I will look at them on the screen. She did not like this and re-iterated that she wasn't going to talk about the emails and asked if I understood. Didn't like how she said it, but said yes... I understood.

So I scrolled down to the oldest email which was April 11, 2014... their system purges email so I could not see older ones... and this email was her reaching out to Joe personally saying "Just checking in to see how things are going... Haven't heard from you in a while." The content isn't all that important other than the agreement is the friendship that she had built with OM1 and OM2 was to end due to the fact it was hidden for a year and the fact she had built a hidden friendship that went to the point she was going out with OM1 for lunches as a lunch buddy and lying to me about it. And even when she agreed to stop with both me and counselor she still did it a few more times before she finally stopped (well as far as I know) Not only was the agreement the friendship ends and any interaction (that may have to be done due to work) stay professional, but also I believe Dr. Harley clearly states this sort of relationship born out of deception needs to end. It is a threat to the marriage and continues to cause issues. My wife has continued this relationship.

She continues to talk about personal things with him... our kids... books she is reading... how she is ready to move out of our old house to a new house... how the book she is ready is pretty clean... asked about his basketball trips and how she is so jealous he gets to go.

There was one or two other personal ones... one where she is praising how they have the right guy for the job and and praising him as a good sales man. This one email she was chatting back and forth for a while and then said she had to head of for Zumba class as Zumba was calling her fat.

All of the other emails that OM1 or OM2 were in, BUT also had other recipients in the email stayed very professional. Only the emails to OM1 directly and no other recipients were personal.

Again... the overall content is not really important. Looking at the content there isn't anything that would say you are having a physical affair or lustful affair like that. Many would say nothing there indicates emotional affair... but a friendship... But what it clearly states to me...

- She broke her word and lied that the friendship had ended.
- She lied to me and said there was no personal friendship still there and tried to hide it (in my opinion) by trying to give me a print out of one email versus letting me see them all. The one she printed was very professional and not personal. But the few personal ones were in the email account.
- She not only lied about it she was the one seeking it out by contacting him.
- It seems like this friendship is more important to her than her marriage and not putting her marriage first.

I obviously cannot see all the calls she has made to him and have not seen her work phone for texting content, but I will see it in morning.

Although she was mad that I wanted to see them... and she stated she new she had no justification for being angry... and the fact she let me see them have some bearing on the fact she really doesn't see this friendship as harmful or wrong. She states he is just a friend and nothing more... no different than a female coworker. She does also email one of the female consultants, but in the past emails I looked at in 2013 there were very few to her as her friendship was really with OM1 and OM2.

So now I am not sure what to do. I have read enough to not go making demands or attacking.

Oh... and today the counselor really ticked me off as he felt the discussion of the past had been done to ad nauseum and that she apologized and we need to move on. I told them I was not going to be bullied into blindly trusting and that there needed to be radical honesty and openness. He agrees with this... but sometimes he says something that seems to contradict this.

In the end it seemed like one big argument in the room.

So what is the next step? I can't attack her and do things that continue to love bust. We are scheduled for a date tomorrow from 1PM to 7PM and I have to NOT allow any of this to come up and act like none of this seriously hurt me or withdrew every little bit of love there was.

I think you did wonderfully well. Continue to snoop, make deposits, avoid withdrawals.

I think you know you need to watch these friendships most warily.

I am lost as I am not sure what I can do. So I keep my eyes open, I try to make deposits and no withdrawals... but what happens with this??? I did email marriage builders, but the email was very long so they may not read it. I may have to send a second one if I don't hear back and try to keep it to a single page.

Anyway... not sure how to continue. If I can't make withdrawals then how can I state how this makes me feel and discuss the fact the broke her word and try to get this stopped? I am trying to read everything I can now on this site so trying to not do anything at the moment.

And... since we know my wife has no problems with these friendships how will it ever end if she can never enthusiastically end them??? That is where I am really concerned... how do I get it to stop if she would not agree??????? That is part of the POJA I don't get.

You have every right to be concerned about these "friendships"

You don't want to make any withdrawals while discussing any of this, but you can respectfully request that she read the articles on here about opposite sex friends.

This can then open up discussion that may lead to an agreement about protecting your love and marriage to her.

MSM, I haven't been following your entire thread, but since you never enthusiastically agreed to her "friendships" in the first place, they should not be part of the marriage. That means you go back to the point of the negotiation and the default position is to do nothing. Do nothing applies to her friendships. If a spouse does things that make the other spouse unhappy, then that should stop until an enthusiastic agreement is reached.

The solution is to tell your wife how unhappy these relationships make you and ask her to stop. If she cares about your feelings she will be happy to do that. If not, then you have a bigger problem on your hands.

here

And she may not be enthusiastic about it at first and that is just fine. Her reward for doing so is a happy, secure marriage. The article I posted above addresses this very issue perfectly.

Right - you need enthusiastic agreement to DO something, not to NOT do something. So you need enthusiastic agreement to SEE people, not to NOT see them. If your spouse isn't enthusiastic about you having contact with a particular person, you shouldn't contact them.

The rule is very simple and works very well.

That's what I have not been able to articulate to her and maybe I can't. If we could remove the things she does that does great damage to me and remove the things "I DO" from doing great damage I think the healing can begin. I am actively changing everything that has come out that I do that hurts her... I am not perfect at it and fail, but I am actively working on it and no on can deny that. However this sort of hidden deception that comes out by me snooping or having to request access does not help anything.

I want to be clear that I struggle in two core areas that I have read in love busters:

1) Disrespectful Judgements: Based on this from the site

Well... when I am trying to get my point across I don't feel I am trying to "force", but I see how that looks and probably is. Sort of the... "how can anyone who claims to love someone do this" type of thoughts. I need to do everything I can to remove this love buster and figure out how to avoid it.

2) Angry Outbursts: Based on this from the site


Well... I do NOT have this screaming match, yelling match or name calling type of deal. BUT I do feel an injustice is begin done to me and feel she is deliberately making a choice to make me unhappy by some of her actions. I don't feel like I am trying to teach her a lesson, but if I really look hard at myself I can see times where I completely shutdown in anger and in that state I am unwilling to communicate or be loving... just sort of coexist.

I cannot allow this sort of behavior from me to continue. It is not my normal state at all... BUT when hurt has built up I see anger boiling inside and it comes out in some love buster way. I clearly need to address this.

My point is... there are deep hurts I know come from actions my wife is taking, but I also have struggles I need to master... some days / weeks I do very well and when the fire is turned up it is much more difficult.

So my commitment is to do everything I can, even in the midst, of the latest fire to not all it to control me.

For example the date Saturday from 1:00PM to 7:00PM had no discussion or anything to do with marriage in general. I tried to simply provide an enjoyable date. Now after the date was over and went well... I had hoped she may be willing to meet one of my intimacy needs (yes physical), but she did not initiate so I left it alone and did no try to initiate.

But you are not in a position to be able to say if it helps anything. It helps tremendously in that if she is hiding something, you will find out. And if she isn't, you will be reassured of her trustworthiness. Snooping is always very helpful.


That is great that you focused on making the date an enjoyable, pleasant time. You have the right idea. The only thing I would add is that 6 hours is a very long date and may have been too long. Usually 4 hours is the longest because longer than that can be exhausting.

I can be pushing it... I agree. We saw a movie as part of it so I see that 2 hours as being no communication... just enjoying something we both do like. But no talking. We then had dinner and talked and then walked the mall for things we needed to do. Perhaps that is not part of the UA time... so I can't say that all 6 hours were pure UA time. I am still reading and trying to soak up as much info as I can.

That sounds like a perfect date. You just deduct the time you were in the movie. Shopping together and eating out is GREAT UA time, IMO. You did good!

So four hours - which is the perfect recommended 'block' of UA time.

While it's a better feeling emotinally if she were voluntarily open and honest, (that would meet the emotional need for honesty as well as factually filling in blanks) you'd still have to snoop anyway. Careful and protective spouses always realise their spouse may be under some malign influence, or may not be aware of how important some unspoken thing is to you, and so they snoop anyway.

So I am at a loss...

I am not to make demands, do any judging, and not have any angry outburst over this... check... got it... BUT

What the heck do I do. Yes... keep trying to give love deposits and avoid love busters.

This issue needs to be addressed in some manner right? But how?

Now we have counseling appointment Thursday. I shared everything with counselor today and he was definitely disappointed to hear it. My guess is he will let her talk Thursday and see where she goes with things. He met with her after me so I am sure he probably listened to her point of view and may have tried to coach her... but one thing he doesn't do is say you are wrong or try to judge or impose his beliefs. He said he clearly didn't need me to make a case or argument against what took place to him as he agreed this should not take place based on our existing boundaries agreement.

However I am not sure he thinks this is anything more than a close friendship and not an affair and (emotional or sexual). Yes... no proof whatsoever on sexual and even with content of all emails I have found nothing indicates much more than just a good guy friend (as if you were single). I know he sees it as risky... but I don't know what a true MB counselor would do. So how would Dr Harley address this. Would he flat out call it like it is and challenge her (as well as me on my struggles I have already described). I just don't know how this should really proceed.

Everything we have told you to do here is what Dr Harley would have told you to do. He would tell you to quietly snoop on her and find out the facts. He would tell you to respectfully explain to her that opposite sex friendships are upsetting to you and a risk to your marriage. He might even suggest that you give her the article about the danger of opposite sex friendships.

He would tell you not to accuse her of anything, but quietly snoop.

How would he know? Is he snooping on her? Does he have FACTS that would substantiate this position?

Mmmm given that 60pc of marriages experience infidelity (and of those 100pc of the BS's get trickle truthed and get told half the story) - I'd like to hear his rationale as well.

How can he possibly know? Does he just think you 'should' trust her and that will magically make her trustworthy (a sort of build it and they will come philosophy) or does he really think all the people in his office who have trashed the trust in their marriage for a 'friendship' are actually telling him the truth when they gloss over the details?

If the latter, I have some nice pieces of jewellery to sell him as gold before they go green.

Perhaps he thinks only slimy Hollywood baddies have affairs, instead of it being a fairly common human failing, and your wife seems so nice and friendly.

Your wife was VISIBLY nervous when you looked at her emails wasn't she? I think she was fairly, but not absolutely, confident that she hadn't left anything there that was too bad - but she wasn't sure. That's because there is more.

I have requested another meeting before we meet as a couple with him to dialog about this exact matter... why he may think what he is thinking... and what does he really think... how does he know what her heart is... is he saying to just trust her. I don't think he is saying this though. What I don't want to do is just go in... she apologize... I forgive... done. Maybe that is what it should be. I hope or would desire he really examine why she is doing it? Does she not see the danger... does she not see the hurt it causes... how does she expect to have the marriage she claims she wants while continuing to harm her spouse.

Part of me wants someone to simply step on her toes and say point blank... "HEY... you are damaging your marriage with the deception and your opposite sex friends and you need to STOP! It needs to end now before you destroy any love your husband has left for you... and YES... your husband needs to stop the love busters he has... but since I am talking to you... STOP your love busting!!!"

I actually want my counselor to step on my toes and get in my face... it makes me confront both things I do in a poor way or my direct SIN. So I welcome in my face (well without anger). But here it is buddy... now what are you going to do about it!

On another note about lying... I have 15+ years of experience with her and one pattern has always existed... she avoids conflict... no matter what the subject. Over the years I have seen her lie about things that she new I may disagree with in my belief, but she didn't necessarily see a problem with... so instead of discussing and dealing with it she would just either not divulge anything and possibly lie.

This reminds me of one of the articles here where it talked about different types of liars... I think my wife is an avoidance liar. In general I don't catch her in lies with anyone else or anything other than what I might disagree with... again it isn't all the time, but it is clear she is an avoidance liar. I have to make it very easy for her and safe for her to come to me about things she may disagree with and find new ways to discuss (POJA).

The good thing is... since counseling she has shared more things or responded differently in a lot of ways even if it was something that might hurt my feelings... at least we can deal with those things. Can't deal with something hidden away until it comes out.

I have my beliefs and my convictions and I have no problem sharing them... but I think how I have shared them may have come across as disrespectful judgment or like this is how it should be based on my point of view or something like that where she felt she couldn't discuss. We both come from screwed up homes so we are now forced to learn how to properly communicate and deal with our brokenness.

Last night she did start the process to apologize for breaking the agreement, but I asked her if we could talk about this in counseling... to be honest I couldn't trust myself to not respond and say something wrong (judgment, anger or whatever). I was afraid to hear... sorry... and she not look like it really was an issue. As she started out it actually sounded that way. She got this part out before I asked if we could talk about it in counseling... "just wanted to say I was sorry for breaking agreement". It was sounding like apologizing for something simple like... "oops sorry I knocked over your cup" Maybe this is my problem... accepting apologies that just don't look genuine or as if the nature of the offense was not serious. So simply asked if we could do this in counseling.

Told you I am broken as well.

One struggle is her apologies in the past always seem so... trivial. Like the original year of lying. She simply says I am sorry I lied. Now from my Christian standpoint I need to accept the repentance and forgive... but it is very difficult when it looks like it was not really a big deal to her and that it was not a serious wound to the heart in marriage. I guess this is where we may apologize differently and I can't expect her to apologize like I do. For example.. when she shared the hurt I was causing back when we first went to counseling my heart hurt for her as I empathized how she may have felt. I was in tears for knowing I hurt my wife in some of the ways I did. But my wife was more like... sorry I lied and sorry I hurt you. Done. I can't judge her heart... but dang it is hard when it looks like it really isn't an apology.

While it may feel great to receive what you would call a heart felt apology, it is unnecessary for recovery. Many people get bogged down in whether an apology is genuine enough, but it is a needless distraction.

You can build a great marriage without either of you apologizing.

Markos used to apologize with tears in his eyes every time he lovebusted me. But nothing changed, and I came to hate the words "I'm sorry." On the other hand, Markos only received a genuine apology from me AFTER our marriage had been recovered for many months. On top of that, many, many men NEVER receive an apology yet still recover their marriages.

An apology is not vital to recovery.

Tomorrow I will be going in with my wife for our counseling appointment. I have not spoken to her (no love busters) about this latest issue described in the last few posts above. Will try to summarize here:

- I know she is going to apologized for breaking our agreement.

- I know she doesn't think having this friendship with opposite sex friend is wrong and she has always stated that it was nothing more than a good friend just like any of her female friends.

- In this latest situation she again did not reveal she was still interacting with him on some projects and when I found it out she said there was no personal interaction (all professional).

- I then found that there were at least 2 personal emails I could find where she reached out to OM1 personally and shared personal conversation (not about our marriage... just things she was doing and so on).

So in counseling she I am sure will apologize for breaking our agreement (she has already said this much when I asked her to wait until our counseling appointment for us to talk about issue)

So now I am trying to figure out what can I share or not share? I obviously want her to know that it was very hurtful... but one of my past patterns is telling how it hurts, but then sharing what about it I find wrong or what I find about the action that should not be happening. I think this may come across as disrespectful judgement.

So what (In the Marriage Builders way) should happen in this counseling session??? If she simply says sorry for breaking the agreement I can simply forgive (trust is broken though). But what room is there for discussion... how can I discuss and it not sound like I am judging. She most definitely feels like she has not had any sort of affair (sexual or emotional) so me referencing any materials from MB (which many times references some sort of affair) is more likely to just tick her off and make it a love buster moment.

Just trying to determine how best should I respond or handle this in the counseling session. I am so afraid I will handle it wrong or the counselor will make it sound like it was not a big deal... she apologized... move on without discussion or understanding why or whatever.

Please give some helpful feedback on how to handle myself tomorrow.

Thank you for this point of view. I will take it to heart and pray on it as I want to keep moving forward.

Unfortunately I have come to almost hate the I'm sorry that seems un-genuine. Even if the actions were not against me, but if I was watching some other marriage... it is hard to see someone not appear to truly own what they have done.

BUT I hear you and will deeply think on this some today. Thank you again for this point of view.

(I was writing another post when you posted so I know what you said here can carry over partly to my latest post).

1. Keep snooping
2. Insist that opposite sex friendships are painful to you. Don't try to educate her on how dangerous they are or tell her how wrong they are. Make it about you:
"Your opposite sex friendships hurt me and I would like them to stop."
"Why?"
"They just do, and I would like them to stop."
"What are you suggesting?!?"
"Only that they hurt me and I would like them to stop."
"I can have a male friend without it turning into something!"
"Yes, but it hurts me and I would like it to stop."

Repeat this complaint daily. Keep it on the front burner.

Thanks... now another question...

Let's say you are trying to do POJA in regards to OS friends. If a close friendship with OS is hurtful to me then based on POJA it doesn't happen. Now she could say that it is hurtful to her to have her restrict friendships with OS. So the claim is both of you are being hurt... myself by her relationships with OS and herself by denying those relationships because of my feelings.

Now personal I would say build friendships with same sex friends and we build OS friends as couples where neither of us is spending alone, personal building time with the OS. I find this as a good way to go, but she may say I am restricting her or hurting her.

I can see this possibly being turned around on my like I am the bad guy or doing something to her.

We do have an agreement that was done in counseling... but to be honest not sure she was enthusiastic about it as it meant she had to deny some relationships. But she did agree. This was before I learned some about POJA which I am still trying to wrap my head around as I can see someone trying to use it to restrict the other person... maybe she feels I am doing.

Anyway... just trying to pull this all together. I am tempted to call the coaching line with Dr Harley's son, but the price is a little steep for me financially.

What about writing Dr. Harley?

Email your questions to Joyce Harley at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com. When your email question is chosen to be answered on the radio show, you will be notified by email directing you to listen to the rebroadcast. If you would like to consider being a caller, include your telephone number. You will be called by us to explain the procedure to you. Every caller will receive a complementary book by Dr. Harley that addresses their question.

This is a free way to talk to the Harleys.

This is a very common question about POJA. You can read the answer here: Resentment Type A and Type B

That's a specific case of a pretty specific problem. Dr. Harley calls it Type A and Type B resentment. There are some threads and radio shows about it here on this site somewhere.

Suppose I'm going to feel resentful because something I want to do would bother my wife Prisca. The solution is to find something else that I would like to do, that she would be enthusiastic about.

As an example, suppose I want to go to a baseball game. But Prisca doesn't like baseball - and she doesn't want to stay home being the babysitter so that I can enjoy a ball game. We talk for awhile and come up with an alternative we both love: I will take our oldest sons to a football game and she will stay home with the rest of the children with a DVD I will bring them, along with some popcorn and snacks for a fun movie night. Or, we decide to get a babysitter, and we go together to a basketball game. (I use sports in this example, but in real life Prisca and I don't like any sports, so I guarantee you we would be looking for some other solution here besides any of those I've proposed.)

Or, let's say I would like to bed the secretary at work. Prisca isn't enthusiastic about that because it would hurt her terribly. I'll be resentful if I don't go, though, so we discuss an alternative. I propose that Prisca will make love to me more often. But she's not enthusiastic about that - I've been neglecting her and she doesn't feel like being intimate with me. So, we arrange to start spending a lot more time together, with me meeting her emotional needs, knowing that eventually after she falls in love with me again she will want to meet my sexual needs. Obviously I'd never even propose having sex with someone else because the very idea would be insanely hurtful to Prisca, but this very extreme example points out the kind of alternative that people ought to be looking for in this kind of scenario: get your emotional needs met by your spouse - make your spouse your friend.

In both of my hypothetical examples (VERY hypothetical) I'd be resentful if I don't get what I'm looking for - but an alternative can be found that I will be just as happy about. If I start out with the view that I have to have this one thing or else I will never be happy, I will prevent the negotiation that would have allowed us to find an alternative, because I'll be too busy insisting there is no alternative.

I suspect a number of marriages have been saved from people taking up BrainHurts on this suggestion when she posts it.

Isn't she great? She beat me to it.

Thank you to everyone for your continued support. I am sure I'll have more questions to come.

Yes it's very important not to lecture your spouse - complaints should be made without any hint of who is right and who is wrong. See; I think having OS friends is very, VERY wrong, but if I were in a marital debate over them, I wouldn't say so. If I set myself up as the Queen of what's Right and Wrong I will just put a nose out of joint. ( Nor would I queenly decree 'I am right to have OS friends' if I felt that way)

Instead of a right/wrong debate just say it hurts you and you would like that fact considered. MBers don�t disrespectfully judge the other as being 'wrong' as it muddies the water. They simply expect a spouse to respond to the complaint. It is neither right nor wrong to dislike mushrooms, so I would just tell a spouse 'no mushrooms' when ordering pizza, not convince him he is somehow deviant to even want them.

What you're looking for is - how does she respond when the 'right/wrong' label is removed and it is boiled down to 'please consider me'. Will she choose to respect your feelings or ignore them? Is she open to alternative ways of having her need met which don't hurt you? There's nothing these men offer that you can't offer her and more.

See, even if she was successful in convincing you that your feelings are wrong, that wouldn't change the feelings. It would still grind on your feelings of love for her until all romance and tenderness disappeared. Much the same effect as a spouse would have on me if they continually presented me with mushrooms. It still boils down to whether or not she is OK with making you unhappy to get what she needs.

MBers give their spouse every warning they can about their unhappiness, and every opportunity to recognise and correct it. You will need to lead by example for a while.

Thank you for this explanation (along with all the other folks). This helps tremendously for me and how I need to respond. I am one of those folks that need to keep grilling it in until it becomes habit and a way of life.

There are a lot of gray areas or at least appear to be where it is very clear there is not necessarily a right or wrong...

But what about areas that are clearly against the Bible (we are Christians). For example lying? Or Deception? Or Affair? Or whatever blatant sin. Am I correct in that we still do not point this out as wrong or un-biblical? I know if I was holding a friend accountable to Biblical teaching I believe the Bible makes it clear to point out the wrong, but do it in love and allow God's word to clearly point it out... not my personal beliefs. Not judging, but rebuking a friend who I am helping to be accountable.

So how does this play in marriage with issues of clear wrongs like the examples I gave?

In a marriage, when one spouse is doing something that bothers the other, whether it's an outright Biblical sin or simply something annoying, the best way to handle it is to say, "When you (insert troublesome behavior,) it really bothers me."

When saying this, avoid attaching a judgment to it, such as "you're being lazy," or "you're wasting time," anything that can be argued. That something is bothering you can't be argued by the other person.

Assuming your spouse has good will toward you, he or she will apologize and change the troublesome behavior so as not to be the source of unhappiness.

I would be very careful about calling out sin in another person, especially your spouse. Even when done in love, it can backfire if the person wasn't seeking your input or guidance. Many sins are bothersome to the spouse, and the best way to handle it is with a complaint.

And remember that if something your spouse is doing bothers you at all, you can ask for your spouse to simply stop doing it, even without having to explain why it bothers you.

If my H was to set me down and tell me very kindly and with love that something I was doing was greatly concerning to him and told me that when I did (name it), it didn't really bother him but he was concerned that I might going down a path which might lead to sin, I think I'd listen and at least discuss it with him, because our three-year MB marriage history speaks volumes to me about his love and care for me. But usually the MB way of handling complaints is quite sufficient for dealing with life's annoyances and difficulties.

Affairs are quite different, of course, because a simple demand to stop and a patient explanation of the harm being done isn't usually enough to get the unfaithful spouse to stop. Calling it a sin certainly won't stop him/her. With affairs, exposure, Plan A, followed by Plan B is the best solution for the betrayed spouse.

That is a great description!

Pointing it out is just fine, and very much recommended. Not just sin either - you should point out any complaint that you have. Just make it *your* complaint. Don't try and spin it as though God told you to pass the message on. That carries the message that you don't expect what you think to be taken seriously - and if you dont think your feelings are important, why should she?

You can say whatever it is offensive to you and that enabling such behaviour is against your religious and moral beliefs. Just don�t tell her what her religious and moral beliefs should be. You can (and should) say you won't stand for things in your life that you don�t want there - such as deception.

Even when a spouse has an A you don�t lecture them on how wrong they are, it is swifter to say what you will and won't stand for. It is more important to DO than talk in cases of really extreme sin. A man who has the bible passages out won't achieve half as much as the man who is fighting the A with exposure and winning his wife back. Women should not shelter their H in their home while he continues such an egregious and offensive attack. In both scenarios they take a stand against sin with action, but lecturing what a person with free will should think plays no part whatsoever.

MB typically allows the spouse the respect to believe whatever they choose - but that does not extend to allowing deeply offensive actions. A person who believes OS friends won't get them into trouble is left alone to think so as long they don't hurt their spouse by actually doing it. A spouse who gets the temptation to have an A with an old love isn't battered for the thought, they are asked to cut off contact.

Dr H has even counselled with people with completely opposing but passionate religious beliefs to stop any action that offends the other - but he tells them to leave the others' thoughts alone.

wow, indiegirl, that is a great quote - could you go post that over on tiredwife's Honesty thread?

Sure.

Just had counseling session... my chant in my head was...

Do NOT do demands.
Do NOT do disrespectful judgement.
Do NOT get angry.

Looks like I succeeded there.

Here is what took place...

I shared the facts of the latest hidden things.
I shared how they hurt me and how it makes me feel.

She did apologize for not honoring agreement and having "personal" contact versus only "professional".

Although she could lie and I know this she said the following:

- She did not delete any emails herself.
- She DID get mad when I asked to see her work related things, BUT realized she had no grounds to be mad.
- The system does purge every 30 days, but she had not had "personal" contact via phone / email since last year until this April 11th event, but there had been a few work related emails with the consultant.
- She could have deleted the emails in question, but she didn't as she really didn't think the content was overly personal and there was nothing to hide in her eyes. Although today she apologized as it does violate agreement and she knows it hurt me and she said it was not going to continue.

I shared with her that she wanted me to believe this was just a friend and nothing more, but these actions have made it difficult for me to know to what extent of an emotional bond she had / has with this person. And this unknown causes me pain and hurt. She said that he was just a friend and there is no bond and that she has no problem stopping it.

I did not ask and not sure there would have been a benefit, but I would have like to have said... I feel like there is an emotional bond that is difficult to break since it appears to have been a challenge this last time, but I didn't say anything as that would have been argumentative or judging.

She is NOT a thinker... more of a carefree live by the moment person. I know that folks can struggle with being honest with their feelings and I asked did she think she was being honest with herself about this OS friendship, about what it really was... she said she believed she was and he was only a friend and nothing more so she can keep it professional for the few times she has to interact with him for consulting support.

I also shared that I would like to make a request for Radical Honest... that we have honest, openness and transparency. She seems to be fine with that... but maybe she doesn't know what that really means yet.

There was no anger from her at all in the session, no defensiveness. Well... she did once start to give a defense, but counselor stopped her.

Anyway... I believe it was a good session, BUT a long way to go and truthfully... still don't really know the extent of the relationship and must continue with eyes wide open... and me stopping my past love busting and build on her emotional needs.

I encouraged counselor that I would like to get more focused to the MB practices so we are going back to re-doing the questionnaires and pick up from there. He mentioned that we had so much "difficulty" with on another "both fighting things" that we could never really get traction... and that does sort of sum it up. Hopefully we me really pushing to NOT do my love buster actions and if my wife starts doing the same as well as both starting to meet our needs our marriage will slowly improve.

How are you doing, SM?

Still keeping the love busters at bay?

In regards to keeping the love busters at bay... so far I have been successful. Internally though I feel hurt wanting to come out, but I try to redirect by going back to reading about love busters and my other book to help me not go down that road. But so far so good.

How am I doing... it is a struggle that currently is all internal as I feel I can't share with wife. Even if I make something a request I am not sure if she is very open.

For example we took a 20 minute walk the other day and I shared with her that I would like to have 15 hours of time with her per week if possible. I shared we had about 3 hours of alone time with one another over the last 10 days and for me I would really like to get to having 15 hours a week as I felt the amount of time we had wouldn't allow us to really meet each others needs and emotionally reconnect. At the time she didn't seem to disagree or agree and she didn't seem to have a negative reaction or anything. So I thought she just heard me and I left the request in her hands.

She then had her counseling session and then I had mine and it came up in counseling that he wanted me to try and have nothing but easy time with my wife... that she has a strong desire for "easy". So he recommend that when we take walks or go on dates to not bring up anything about relational things. I agree in regards to dates... I was trying to keep those completely free of anything other than meeting needs and fun... but sooner or later you have to make time to discuss requests or desires right? So I told him that I thought I was... and the only thing I did was share wanting more time together. Apparently that was not "easy" for my wife.

So I explained to him from my perspective... I simply took the 20 minute walk (which was 20 minutes of our 3 hours) over 10 days to share me wanting more time. I didn't complain or say it in a negative way... just that I wanted more time with my wife to build our relationship and to become closer with one another emotionally. My wife has read (or at least she said she did) His Needs / Her Needs and I do remember her saying she didn't think 15 hours was reasonable.

So my counseling session I felt didn't go well as I felt I was being told I could never share a request unless in counseling. I explained we are only getting 3 hours in 10 days and it has been that way for a LONG time... if not less. So when can I possibly share a request or a desire when we have such little time.

In my eyes if all we have is 1.5 hours a week and 15 minutes of it is sharing a request then yes... from a percentage standpoint is much less than if we had 15 hours a week with just 15 to 30 minutes of request making and or discussion... at that point the percentage of "easy" is very high. It was like I couldn't get him to understand this... now I think he was just trying to say make everything with relational building easy and save discussion / request for a separate time... and I agree... but when our 1.5 hours in a week happens in just 15 minutes increments then I find it hard to fit it in.

Anyway... move ahead 2 day to our couple counseling and after sharing all of the positives of the last few weeks we discuss the request for more time.

Now although counselor is teaching many of the MB guidelines (he is not a MB coached counselor)... he does coach on not demanding, angry outbursts, disrespectful judgements and also on emotional needs. However there are some areas he seems to not entirely agree with or he things may not be reasonable which really bothered me.

So as we started to discuss my request for more time my wife started debating what time are we including for this... I told her that I was wanting 15 ours of undivided attention where we were meeting one another's needs. That I wasn't counting going to a movie per say as we can't even talk during a movie. The other night we sat for an hour on the couch and I had to take a test for work and she watch a hallmark movie... she looked at me and said she counts that as time together. I said I definitely count it as time together, but not undivided attention... how could I meet her needs or she meet my needs by just sitting there and not doing anything "together". So after a while it started to feel like I am debating on why it is good to have UA time together. So I simply said... I am simply requesting more time with you where we can give each other the attention we deserve and I leave that request in your hands as I don't want to argue about it.

So she went on to say that our counseling time should count, when we watch movies together and a few others that would not count in my mind as UA from what I have read. So one question would be is sitting down watching a movie or tv show at home considered Recreational companionship. There are definitely shows / movies we really enjoy together... and if it is at home we do talk on and off during them.

So I was hoping during this process the counselor would have backed my desire for 15 hours (knowing he isn't specifically a MB counselor). But as my wife makes the statement that she can't see any way for us with 3 kids, with sports, and so on ever having 15 hours of time. I tell her that all we have to do is schedule for it and it will be possible. Then the counselor says that he thinks that would be difficult to achieve as well and he felt if we could get 8 to 10 hours a week we would be doing way better than most of the marriages he is seeing come through the doors. I can say I was very disappointed to here him say this so now he just justified my wife's belief that it can't be done so now how the heck can I get this time.

She also know this comes from MB site and his books so now I am afraid she is turning a negative reaction to MB.

Anyway... gonna head on, but was very disappointed with his response. Now he did say he thinks it would be great to get that amount of time, but he thought it may be difficult for us to do it based on our existing schedule. I agree with existing schedule it would be hard, but that is why you "change" the schedule... because in my mind you put your energy and time to what is important... our marriage... but I didn't say that as that is my belief and could come off as a judgement if my wife doesn't see it the same way I do.

Thanks.

I'd stop talking about MB and what you want from her. MB is amazing, but any belief system not enthusiastically shared is going to come over like you're a salesman on the doorstep. You've mentioned the 15 hours, she has a working memory, so I would now just drop all discussion of it and work Plan A.

I would just start to make a process out of enticing her in. Set up fun things that she would like to do. Set up babysitters. Look into clubs the kids can join to give you free time (Vacation bible school has been used by couples here for free babysitting!) If she says no, then nod, smile and come up with something else. By all means, watch movies with her. No it isn't proper UA time but she will have a good time with you and the pressure to 'fix the marriage' will be lessened. This all encourages her to view you as a fun person she will ultimately want to spend that UA time with. Get her some snacks and fix her a snazzy drink - download something she mentioned or that she would like. Make deposits anyway even before you get that access to UA time.

Women, fortunately or unfortunately are very 'show me the money' creatures. We are wired to want it to be easy to be around the man we are with. We don't do courting or wooing. Whether committed or not she's not going to want to spend time with you if it is peddled as a requirement. She will only want to spend time with you if it is fun and satisfying for her.

The good news for you is that there is a high success rate with men getting stuck in to Plan A and enticing their wives over to the side of romance. If you were a woman, it would be hopeless and you'd have to make an ultimatum.

I am a bit torn about the counselling sessions. The counsellor is useless and it is an hour of relationship talk, which is a negative experience devaluing your stock with her. Not to mention the individual sessions where he is probably peddling incorrect theories like it's OK to spend little to no time together. I wonder if you should drop out, and concentrate on using that time/money better, or whether you should go in there calculatedly to make deposits in a situation where you have her attention. However you can make deposits around the house, or even by email and text which are likely to be far more fun and flirty than counselling time. So I think you should just say you aren't doing it any more. It's busting down your morale more than anything else.

That might create a short term conflict with your wife, but it will add up to fewer negative experiences than an hour a week indefinitely would. Make it up to her in other ways.

If his clients aren't spending more than ten hours together they aren't in love. They might be happily and independently coexisting but a passionately in love person requires more than one and a bit hour per day with their soul mate! Ask for examples of successful couples ten years out from counselling who have been scored for passion and romantic love. If he can't provide them say it's not for you because you have found another system which can provide that data.

I actually talk very little about MB, but I will stop talking about it at all.

I am torn on counseling as well... the two biggest things that have bothered me lately is how he has said...

1) It is unrealistic to get 15 hours of time together... ( but I believe he had also stated "based on your current schedule"). So I am seeing him today to tell him how much this disturbs me as I feel like he just gave validity to my wife that 15 hours is NOT doable when I know it is. It is simply scheduling it and being creative. But because my wife "TRUSTS" the counselor she is likely to believe almost anything he says. Where I don't blindly believe anything he says... I think through what he says and determine if I feel it is wise or beneficial for our marriage. And to state having 15 hours of UA time a week is unrealistic is NOT beneficial in my mind.

2) He has said several times in counseling... "your husband doesn't trust you". This is really upsetting as stating it this way puts the issue on ME as if I have an issue trusting people. When the real issue is the untrustworthy, unfaithful, and deceptive actions that my wife has taken... and how she doesn't really follow through with what she say she will do. For example she was supposed to have the LB and EN questionnaire done by last Thursday and she didn't do it. She actually said... "Oh you did yours H... if you would have printed me a copy I would have done it." I tried to hold my tongue, but I said "I want us to be completely honest with ourselves here... I am not the reason you have not completed the LB and EN questionnaires. Yes I would be happy to print one out for you, but it was your responsibility to complete your own questionnaires". Luckily the counselor spoke up and told W that it was her responsibility and it is hers to own.

She also lost the book she was suppose to have read a chapter in so we could discuss.

The point is... he keeps mentioning "your husband doesn't trust you"... there is a REASON for this and I want him to stop saying it. Yes... I don't just give blind trust... but once you show yourself trustworthy then trust is abundant. There are plenty of people I trust... but to put it nicely... I don't have confidence my wife will do what she says she will do or to stick with something she says she will do. Now I don't say any of this stuff to her outside of earlier counseling where I explained her actions made it difficult to trust or to have confidence in her... but I don't keep bringing it up.

So today I will be challenging the counselor as I don't want this trust thing put on my shoulders when that trust is really on her shoulders. And I do give certain levels of trust to her... and I give more as she continues being trustworthy... but remember... just several weeks ago I found she reached out to OS friend so she broke trust again in a very big way.

After I speak with him today I am going to consider decreasing my counseling with him. You are right... many times it does bust down my morale and during couple counseling I feel negative withdrawal from my love bank.

Hey ... does Dr Harley have any statistics on success rate with his system? I would love to see some info on this... wonder if he publishes any of that?

I am going to do my best to try and make things enticing and easy as possible... which I have actually been doing, but struggling to some extent. When your own love bank is in the negative it is very difficult.

I don't think I am peddling anything as a requirement, but I guess I could see how she may think that if she doesn't have a strong desire at the moment.

I guess it is good one of us has the strong desire at the moment to restore the marriage.

Thanks again for replies.

You didn't "try to hold" your tongue. There was no trying here, because if you had put forth the effort you would have succeeded in keeping your mouth shut. She did not pry your hand off your mouth to force you to speak your mind. Make no mistake, YOU gave yourself permission to lovebust your wife.



You are wasting your breath trying to straighten him out.

Dropping him completely is a much better option.

As a man, your odds are very good at winning your wife back if you follow the plan to the letter and do not cherry pick it.

OK, I'm hoping the following quote from Dr Harley will try and help you see what I was getting at about the counsellor.

I didn't mean challenge him, I meant, get away from that room because it is a negative room, and when you are in it, your wife views you as negative. Yes, even though it is the counsellors' fault!

The feeling of romantic love is completely irrational. We love people who associate with days when we are at our happiest. We don't love people who we associate with chores or unhappy experiences.



If you're there during boring discussions of why your marriage doesn't work (and as you've identifed) hearing how her H doesn't trust her... you're the blue light that comes with the pain. The counsellor rephrasing and telling her that she is behaving untrustworthily wouldn't help a bit - that's still a negative experience for her.

At this point you might ask, "well who cares if it is negative - the real point is that I am correct (and I believe you are!) and that the counsellor should be telling her how wrong she is for an entire hour so that she can learn the difference between right and wrong".

Completely right as far as rational argument goes, but completely wrong as far as the irrational feeling of love goes. Being lectured about how untrustworthy she is by the counsellor isn't going to help rejuvenate her feelings for you.

Romantic love is what you're aiming for here. If you can spark the feeling of romantic love in her (and it tends to need the man do this to the woman) she will feel more motivated to consider you. She will feel as though your heart is hers. She will do anything to avoid hurting you. So your goal is to prime that pump.

Well how do you do that when she won't do UA time? The same way you did when you courted her first time around. Whenever she was near you, she only had positive experiences of you. So she was willing to give you a bit of time, which turned into a bit more time and which then turned into a lot of time. When you got to the 15 hours a week stage she was in love with you. Bingo.

I'd avoid that counsellors' office like the plague because it is devaluing your lovebank with her. Let him talk about you when you are not there - it won't affect you because every time she is around you, you will ensure it is pleasant and fun and pressure free. Make your complaint that you don't want her to go to counselling, but if she does, keep to your plan. Soon she won't have any complaints to bring him.



This is just foolish! Meet her needs the way a man who is courting would. Is this the way you'd go about getting a date? Make her list what she wants from the date?

You feel she owes you more work and more effort because she is your wife. I get that and agree with you as far as that goes. However I would suggest you throw all thinking like that out of the window and just concentrate on priming the pump of her lovebank. You can be right, or you can be married. You can't be both at this juncture.

Once she is in love with you again she will view your early efforts as romantic and heroic. You can be right then.



When two people are fully on board and implement it correctly I've never seen it fail. It really does seem to have a 100pc success rate. Whenever people come on to the forums saying 'hey it didn't work' you can bet your buttons there is a gigantic gap in the plan they didn't do - that is always the case from what I have seen.

When you have one spouse with a reluctant partner, it gets a bit more hit and miss, yet Plan A is always extremely effective at getting a reluctant spouse's interest. As a woman with a reluctant spouse I Plan A'd my H for six months and he enjoyed every minute of it. I'm pretty sure that if he hadn't been having an affair, he would have done anything not to lose me. He was weeping when I kicked him out. Since you are a man, you can do Plan A so much better. The dynamic works better when the man is courting the woman and obviously, (unlike me) you should ensure there are no competitors with snooping. Plan A hard and snoop as hard as you can.

You'll definitely succeed in getting her love if you Plan A right. So far as that goes Plan A is very succesful. Heard of Stockholm syndrome? Even kidnapped women fall in love when they are treated right and spend time with the person!

When that lovebank marker gets back in the black and she's deeply in love, it then boils down to her relationship attitude. Will she work hard to keep hold of the love or will she keep expecting it handed it to her? This is the part that only she can decide, but you will have done as much as you can to motivate her by that point. People will do anything to keep hold of the feeling of romantic love, it's a drug so your chances are quite high.

Please listen to these clips and tell us what you think.
Beware of Bad Counselors

It is very difficult when the love bank is so empty and my "in love" feeling is non-existent and actually was close to the starting to "hate" feeling... and then to hear... basically had you H done this I would have done what counselor asked me to do.

I hear you and will "refrain"... but I can tell you it is stinking difficult at the moment... although I have been successful many times.

I did discuss it with him privately and right or wrong here is what he said.

He said he agrees with almost everything Dr Harley says... but the one thing he has found through his clients he has had read the His Needs / Her Needs book... is they all said they couldn't see any way possible to do 15 hours of UA a week... I believe he said these were mostly folks with kids involved with sports or something else and usually one spouse was unwilling.

So with the resistance he says he doesn't try to force people to do something... he coaches... and guides them where they are willing to go and he said his clients almost always see doing 7 to 10 of UA time as doable in the beginning.

I explained how I felt he validated my wife and by saying it was unrealistic and by extension it felt like he was saying I was unrealistic as a husband as it was my request to my wife to try and reach a goal of 15 hours of UA prior to last weeks couple counseling.

He said ultimately he has found it difficult for his clients to get on board to doing 15 hours a week, but they all were "willing" to start with 7 to 10 hours a week. He said if BOTH spouses were willing to do 15+ hours a week he would never tell them not to..

He said in my case... my wife is ABSOLUTELY resistant to it... she thinks it is unrealistic... and therefore what good is it for myself or him to try and force her to see that it is good. So he tried to get her to meet where she was "willing". He said he can use his position to try and force and probably could... BUT he wants the spouse to willingly make a decision and not be coerced. He suggested 7 to 10 hours and my wife indicated she sees how that might be possible. So he said let's shoot for the 7 to 10 hours and as the love bank fills our hope is she will desire more of it and be more willing to reach the 15 hours.

I told him... I get that... the wife is resistant and we can't force anything... I get that he is trying to bring her along and get her to meet where she is willing to meet... HOWEVER... by saying it was unrealistic... he is saying HE BELIEVES it can't be done. This is where he simply said again... I am not going to lie to you... this is one area I feel can be unrealistic depending a family situation (I am guessing, but I assumed he meant how many kids, sports, business, and so on and so on). Ultimately he has found it difficult for both spouses to be willing to shoot for 15, but could get them to shoot for 7 to 10 and hopefully more.

Listen... I do not want to go bashing him... I am a big boy and make my decisions based on taking in all the information. I am a STRONG believer in MB so I am going to do my best to do plan A.

Just now my wife initiated a conversation on her own about 15 hours and another subject that I will add to thread later tonight as I am not sure how to respond.

You aren't the first one here who has had to learn how to do this. I was the queen of DJs. I could craft the most clever, pointed, biting DJs that would burn for a long time. I know how hard it is. But it must be done if you want a happy marriage. One of the first steps is to stop giving yourself permission or excuses to lovebust.

I was a very reluctant wife. I didn't want to go out for the 15 hours. I can tell you that I wasn't won over by people giving me an out and telling me I could get by with 7 hours. We would not be in a recovered marriage if I had been told that and listened.

Dr. HARLEY wouldn't see people unless they agreed to get in the 15 hours. It's that important.

I think you need to drop the counselor. He is not helping.

Ok... a few minutes to share this conversation.

She had her counseling session today. Then later in the day she calls me from work and says that she wants to take a little time to talk about the request I had made for 15 hours of time. She said that she needed some help with this... she wanted me to take some time tonight and map out the last 7 days and show her how we could have gotten 15 hours in. She said if I need to include where we may need to back some things off of the schedule that is fine, but show her how. I told her I would work out an idea of how I see we can get 15 hours if we were diligent in following schedule.

Now had it ended here I think we would have been fine. However she brought up another conversation from the past.

First a slight background on this... the situation deals with one of her OS friends at work... not the 2 consultants, but another one of the co-workers that serves as a trainer and she has to spend a bit of time with and did spend a lot of time with him over the past 1.5 years. He is also one of the OS friends she specifically mentioned months ago in counseling that was a good friend and someone she touches. I still don't know what touches means... at the minimum she gives him high fives at work as they achieve certain tasks together, but not sure what else... I think possibly putting her hands on his back every now and then or he coming up and touching her shoulder to get her attention. I have seen where she just reaches up and touches a man on the back near shoulder... but one time she describe a man getting her attention. Personally I don't place my hands on other women and if a woman wants to get my attention I prefer she call my name. But that's me.

He is also the guy she goes to to open up her shake bottle and one day she had called me, but she wasn't talking to me, but to someone else and she was laughing and said "Come on big boy... use the muscles". It turns out it was this OS friend she goes to to help open up her shake bottle when it is too tight for her.

Anyway... a short while back she had asked me if I had a shake bottle at work. I said probably and asked why. She said she never remembers to bring one to work. So I said I had a spare, but what have you been doing as you have been telling me you have been drinking your shakes. She said... oh... I just use my OS friend's shake bottle. I just go into his desk anytime I need it, use it, and clean it out as long as I have it back by 2:00PM for his work out.

So to me she has a close enough relationship with this OS friend to where she can freely share a shake bottle that you drink from and he is someone she has spent a lot of time with, someone she considers a good friend. It puts up red flags... and at the minimum does not make me comfortable. Now back when I had found out about the relationship and sharing of personal shake bottles that they both share and drink from I had shared that it did not make me comfortable and something that I would prefer she quit doing... and that I would provide her a bottle. She then said that is why she was asking me so she could not have to borrow his... but that she didn't see any problem with using his.

Now come back to today... she references this past conversation and says... I want to talk about this situation with the shake bottle... the counselor said I should have been honest with you about it. This caught me off guard and I quite frankly wasn't prepared and in instinct I said "I definitely want honest and openness, but that doesn't always mean that what is being told out of honest is something that I would desire or feel good about. When I said that I realized I probably should have said nothing.

She then went on to say... how do we know if a request from our spouse is unreasonable or not?

So at this point it sounds like she is wanting someone to judge what is reasonable or not, but I wasn't sure so I asked her can you explain what you mean... and she says... well what is someone is being unreasonable like being jealous or insecure.

So now she is essentially saying I am a jealous and insecure husband, because I have strong boundaries in the confines of a marriage.

I said that I have spoke to the counselor and asked him point blank at least 2 times over our course of time if he has found anything I have shared as being flat out jealousy and he has told me no that is not what he is seeing. He simply saw me as a spouse with strong boundaries he respects. He has said yes there are plenty of men and women who would agree with me on my boundaries... but as we know there are men and women who also do not agree. (Note: if you want to see what I think about OS relationships you can see my thoughts on one of my first few posts... but I think I am close to what MB discusses in articles.

Anyway... I said it was hurtful and disappointing that she sees me this way... and that I didn't believe I was that way and she said "oh, come on now.". So she basically added a bit more of a sting there with that comment. We pretty much ended up ending conversation as it was going go no where but love busting. I know I felt love busted and disrespectful judged.

Anyway... I am left feeling a bit defeated tonight as I look back on this.

Final thoughts... I was encouraged that she gave thought to the 15 hour request a short while back and that she was asking for me to help her see a way to do it.

I became quickly discouraged as she started to make her case for her OS friendships as being not a problem and that she sees me as a jealous and insecure person for wanting strong boundaries.

Now she knows there are certain insecurities I have... we all have some... and I felt like she was using that in a harmful way. My main insecurity at the moment is I don't know if my wife is ever going to be in love with me, cherish me, and make decisions that strongly consider my feelings... just like I want to make sure I consider her in all my decisions.

So disappointed... we have our counseling session together tomorrow and I know this will be the main topic she wants to bring up and discuss... and to be honest I don't want to. I don't see any good that can come from this based on past sessions. It will likely just be her saying she sees not problems in her actions and that I am just jealous or insecure for having these boundaries and then I would want to try and explain my viewpoint and then the big fear that the counselor would do something to put me under the bus sort of speak.

I don't know what to do... I absolutely don't want this to turn into a love bust session on me or her and me refusing to go would also love bust her. I have to be all prayed up and focused as I don't think this can go well. I guess all I can say is... this is how I feel and all I can do is make a request and leave it in your hands.

I really wonder how the POJA (if our counselor would ever focus on it or even bring it to light) would come into play.

I have studied POJA and I know the premise of it is if there is no enthusiastic agreement from both of you then it doesn't happen. So in the case of "my wife wanting to go to lunch with a male coworker" OR "my wife not seeing an issue building a close relationship with OS friend" or "my wife not seeing an issue sharing shake bottle with another OS man at work"... how the heck would that work with POJA. Yes... the default is it doesn't happen if there isn't enthusiastic agreement... but what could ever be an enthusiastic agreement in this area??? I don't see how I could ever be enthusiastic about it... EVER. And then she would just view it as me controlling via POJA.

She sees no problem building close friendships with OS and doesn't see an issue going to lunch with them and doesn't see any issue sharing personal things and being their best friend. My stance is I find them to be weak boundaries or non-existent and I could probably never be enthusiastic about those relationships or desires. What agreement could there ever be?

Sorry this got longer than what I wanted.

Man I feel so defeated right now.

As FYI: I am reading through Love Busters book now and trying to soak it all in so I can avoid this big love busters.

Your counsellor isn't a bad guy, he is simply clueless. Dr Harley knows beyond doubt that the plan does not work without 15 hours (minimum) UA time. He has surveyed people who have tried it over and over again and it has not worked one time. I can say too, that I've never seen anyone successfully skip this step. People stay together but they tell us here that they are still miserable and detached. Dr H wouldn't even accept couples who were not willing to put the time in, because he wasn't willing to sign up to a failed project. He's right that she shouldn't be forced and you can warm her up with less hours to begin with, but HIS belief that it isn't essential reveals him as an amateur. He simply knows absolutely nothing about how to create romantic love. He's only interested in keeping the peace between his warring clients and keeping the cash rolling in. That does not create love, but it does create an irresolvable problem and indefinite cash flow. Cash which would be better spent on your wife for a good dinner.

15 hours is the MINIMUM for couples who are already passionately in love. You and your wife will need more like 20 to make up for the deficit once she is on board. It's alarming in the extreme that he doesn't even know this, much less accept it.

Any courting couple, any happily married couple spends 15 hours together. They wouldn't be in love otherwise. I grew up in a home where this was done automatically so it still strikes me as strange that some people don't get it.

You are letting a clown pilot an expensive aircraft. His ignorance is dangerous. He has NO idea that he is conducting negative demoralising sessions which are making you love each other LESS. You must stop going to those sessions with her.





If you think you are going to do it even just one more time, separate to protect her. If you think you are starting to hate your wife separate. Every lovebust is a bullet in a your marriage which already riddled. You can't afford one more.

You'd be better off away from her and doing nothing and avoiding doing any harm than actively destructive actions.



Likewise you have to protect yourself from harm and from her lovebusting. If she begins an entire conversation predicated on making a DJ about you just say you don't want to have a discussion where your feelings are referred to as unreasonable. It hurts you to have your feelings dismissed and you'd rather not. Walk out of the room next time it happens. If she raises it again say you want to have a marriage where your feelings are taken seriously and she can either choose to do that or not.

It sounds like that was a gaslighting attempt to me. Rather than worrying about her mindset, I'd be stepping up my snooping.

Remember that you are in Plan A. Plan A has no expectations. You give out and you get nothing back. You are doping her up with needs to create a feeling of amenability. (Which she is already STARTING to display with her schedule) All you need to look for is a) competition with snooping and b) opportunities to make love bank deposits.

She's willing to look at her schedule which is more than most reluctant wives do, so I'd say your Plan A is going great. Most Plan A men have to put up with snatches of time with an actively hostile wife. They still succeed! If it wasn't for the drama created by the counsellor I think you'd be feeling pretty good.

What is happening with your Plan A anyway? What needs are you meeting for your wife (daily) in order to get this plan moving?

Have you written the Harleys?

Also please listen to these clips. Beware of Bad Counselors

Yes... but it was practically a book so I am actively writing one that can fit on one sheet of paper if I can.

I have listed to them. Thanks for the links.

If you leave your number they will call you and get all your information and then you don't have to write so much. They are wonderful and so easy to talk to.

Let us know when you hear back from them.

So far I have been trying to make everything easy for her... if something hurts me I have not said anything... if she asks for something I do it... I am showing no frustration and no anger... I am not making any disrespectful judgements (other than that statement in the last counseling session I mentioned earlier... don't know what it is classified as, but it was a love buster).

The harder part is trying to act like you are courting someone and not falling into patterns of co-existing. Although it has been "easier" for her, because we don't work on anything or deal with anything it internally takes a bit of a toll on me and is a struggle. I believe this is why she probably is showing more willingness... her asking about how we could do 15 hours (even though she clearly thinks it is unrealistic), being willing to take a 15 minute walk with me about once a day for the last week (she literally works 2 streets over from me), she has been calling me twice a day at work just to say hey.

All of these are positive and have made small love deposits... but there are still large love busters nailing me.

Heading to couple counseling session that I am very nervous about.

I just feel hopeless.

The topic she wanted to discuss was about the OS friend that she shares a shake bottle with some times (see several posts earlier). She explained how she doesn't understand why this would even bothered me. She said she doesn't know how she can avoid love busting me if something doesn't even register in her head as an issue. She goes on to say she has borrowed multiple other folks shake bottles as well... multiple ladies. She said she could have gone and asked another guy as well. She just doesn't see the issue.

Sharing this here... She doesn't understand or get the full context of this relationship with this particular OS friend. To me (and I know she doesn't see it), but sharing a mixer that you both drink from on top of the fact you have an admitted close friendship, and the fact she said in counseling she touches him... again don't really know what that fully means (see previous post about this), and how she is playful with him all leads to me not feeling very safe about that relationship. In the FULL context of everything. My number one LB I call Weak Boundaries... but I am guessing falls under IB... right??? There are other issues, but this is the one LB that has been a pattern and does massive withdrawals. But again I can't make her see that and it is futile to try.

The counselor did speak up and asked her if she understood this is NOT about a bottle, but about the context of the relationship with this OS friend. She of course acknowledged it and she was able to accurately state how it made me feel. BUT... she says she doesn't need boundaries as long as she stops blatant attempts at sexual advances and it shouldn't bother me.

She clearly believes I am just a jealous and insecure person and that is why the need for boundaries...

She point blank stated the following in counseling:

"Someone who wasn't insecure or jealous would not need boundaries." Those are her words blurted out in anger in counseling. Heck... my only insecurities are in my marriage and how my wife values me so little to be unwilling to look at stopping the LB's.

She went on to say that every guy in the world could want to have sex with her, but she would just say no, because she would NEVER do such a thing. (I didn't say it, but how about putting up a hedge of protection so it is clear to those men who have common sense that you are unavailable for being a best friend and then save the blatant NO, get away from me for the idiots who don't have common sense)

She acknowledged she was married to me so we have to figure out how it works, but she went on to say where do you draw the line? Meaning... again... what if she thinks it is not an issue at all, but spouse does... where do you draw the line and say this is not really an issue and you should just deal with it. She literally looks at it as you just have to accept it... which to me sounds like shortsightedness in being able to find a workable solution.

Well I agree from a Christian standpoint that I accept her where she is and love her where she is... but if someone willingly continues to destroy the feelings of their spouse where does that go... Yes... I am to still love and honor... but it destroys the marriage nonetheless.

I specifically spoke up to counselor and said how about the Policy of Joint Agreement. You have asked us to follow the policy of radical honest, why not follow POJA. This is designed for us to work out issues so it protects each of us. LUCKILY he said this much to wife... "if it is something we cannot enthusiastically agree on we don't do it." But that is it. But then again I know he also believes sometimes we just have to accept things. I am split on this on that I believe we need to love our spouse through all our imperfections and we have to forgive and we have to accept one another... but by simply saying sorry just accept this knowing there is a way to resolve doesn't make sense.

Right now I am all torn up inside so this is just my "current" feeling right after leaving... but I feel it is over. I see no hope no matter how well I plan A it... if I can even do it well enough. My emotions after session is all over the place.

The only feedback right now I hope to get is a little encouragement... And how I will go home tonight and successfully do plan A after today's new low. Sad thing is we are running in different direction for kids sports and won't be back to the house until after 8:00PM and she normally passes out around 9:30PM. So when we get home she will just be tired so hard to try and enjoy time.

I know everyone will probably slam counselor... I know how everyone feels... so let's not rehash that.

Right now I have to defuse the internal hurt trying to build anger or resentment in me right now. I need to love my wife regardless... I do believe this... I need to find the strength to do it well to give every chance for success.

Dang... I'm tired of hearing myself talk.

Thanks for the ear.

She just sent me an email saying "love you".

That is something positive... to me I take it as trying to confirm a love commitment... I just desire for her to join me and each of us demonstrate it together as a team full force.

I will take this positive.

This is a very common Plan A mistake. You SHOULD tell her when she hurts you, not just keep it to yourself. But it needs to be done very respectfully, and keep in mind that she may not care for quite some time. But do gently complain:
"It bothered me when you did ..."
"It bothered me when you said ..."
Keep it short and sweet, and don't get into an argument about why it bothered you or hoe she should respond. She may very well respond hatefully. Expect her to. Get your complaint out there, then quickly move on to meeting emotional needs.

It was a disrespectful judgement. Be careful in claiming that you are not making any disrespectful judgements. This is a very sneaky Lovebuster, and very often difficult to see in ourselves. Your wife is the ultimate judge of whether or not you are making them.

Are you listening to the radio show? Looking at other couples situations is a great way to start recognizing disrespectful judgements. They are easier to see in others than ourselves.

She will know because you will respectfully complain.
You: "It bothers me when you share a shake bottle with your male co-worker."
Her: "Thank you for telling me."

It doesn't matter WHY it bothers you. Don't get into that. Now she knows it does bother you, so the excuse that she didn't know no longer flies. It's up to her to start protecting you once she knows.

It doesn't matter if she understands why it bothers you. The question is, WILL SHE STOP?

I would stop having these conversations with her. You don't need to argue over whether or not it should bother you.
Will she stop, regardless of whether or not she sees the problem? That's the only conversation you should have. She needs to know it bothers you, but she doesn't get to argue with you about it.

YOU: "It bothers me when you share a shake bottle with your male co-worker. Please stop."
HER: "But why? It shouldn't because [insert random justification]"
YOU: "It just bothers me and I would like it to stop."
Repeat on a daily basis.

That's fine. She can believe the sky is green and the world is flat, too. Doesn't matter. Will she stop just to protect you?

If your wife will not put up these boundaries, she is a danger to you and your kids. An Affair is just about inevitable. Don't have another session with her where you spend any time justifying or explaining. It simply bothers you, and you need it to stop.

Why? What emotional need does that meet? If you want her to respond to you Plan A her. Meet her emotional needs on a daily basis.

What emotional needs are you going to meet today and tomorrow? How will you be courting your wife?

No more talking your guts out. No more trying to fix her brain and her mindset. Or allowing her to try and fix yours. It's incredibly depressing and pointless to boot.

Make your complaints swiftly and confidently and don't allow a conversation about the complaint to follow. You are notifying her, you don't care about persuading her.

Hit it quick and move on to needs meeting.

I probably need some help in what to do for plan a then. I am inviting her to lunch, asking her to go for a walk for breaks at work (since she is only 2 streets away), and I plan date night (although she feels we can't go every week). I guess she feels we can't spend the money on date night OR she doesn't want that much time away from kids. No since arguing about it so I can just make a tentative plan, invite, and see if she will say yes or no and if no... tell her maybe another time or ask would there be a better time for her.

The sad thing is... I don't fully know her true emotional needs. The first questionnaire she filled out a long while back she filled out wrong so it made no sense. I believe she has finally filled it out again, but we haven't gotten to it in counseling... I think I am going to ask her for it tonight.

I mean... I know the things she likes to do... but going to a movie where you cannot interact... does that meet an emotional need. I believe for her she may say it is recreational companionship... mainly because we both enjoy, but I thought recreational companionship was where you could interact as well and communicate some during the process... or at the minimum just be interacting together.

Anyway... I need to get that list and then look at how to meet them.

Let me go ahead and now list what I think her top 5 would be:

1) Admiration
2) Family Commitment
3) Honesty and Openness
4) Domestic Support
5) Affection

I am almost certain about top 3, but above that I know Sexual Fulfillment is probably last and intimate conversation is probably second to last.

In some ways she is like a guy... meaning doesn't much need for affection or intimate talking... or at least appears that way. Sure during courting days... and maybe that would come back.

But I remember reading I think where there are 3 Dr Harley want you to do that are considered the intimate ones right off the bat even if not top 3. Gotta go back to book.

Anyway... last night she came downstairs with me for about 30 minutes. 20 minutes of it was going over our budget and bills... is this meeting a need? Maybe Financial or Family Commitment. We do have to discuss and make agreements on what we need to pay / do. So could use help on if that 20 minutes is part of UA or not.

She did start conversation off with... I am sorry today was so rough. I just said I am sorry it was as well and then immediately went to asking her how soccer was for the boys and how the rest of her workday went... basically moved it off of anything that would lead to relational discussion. I can tell you in the non-distant past I would have taken her invitation and opened up in conversation that would have probably led no where... but I am avoiding that now.

Anyway... I am sure I will be back for more thoughts on how to meet needs.

I hear you on the DJ.

I have been listening to some of the recordings. I may need to become a member so I can search more specifically by topic. It is hard to be able to listen live so I catch the recordings as I can.

Here is a sample schedule I came up with for 15 hours:
*******************
Day No Hours Notes
1 1.75 (.25 Walk, .5 hours with just us at gym, 1 after kids in bed)

2 1.25 (.25 Walk, 1 after kids in bed.)

3 3 (.25 Walk, .75 lunch, 1 hour exercise at gym, 1 after kids in bed)

4 1 (1 hour after kids in bed)

5 1.75 (.75 lunch, 1 after kids in bed)
6 5 (Date Night)
7 2 (2 after kids in bed slightly earlier. )
*******************

I am not really super happy with it, but it showed we could get the time. Now she then said... when will we do laundry, clean house and all of the other things that have to get done? (We both work and kids have sports 4 to 5 days a week).

Since I didn't want to get into a debate or argument or fall into a DJ I simply said... we can be creative and figure it out and left it at that as she just briefly looked at it.

She also said she couldn't see us having date night 1 day every week, but 1 day ever other week. I didn't want to get into this either, but I believe her reasoning is two fold... money is tight and we currently have no family to help babysit and two she likes have all family together a lot so I believe she feels us being on date every Saturday or Sunday night would short change the kids. Now I don't totally agree we would be short changing them as I believe our marriage needs to be solid and that will do more for the kids than anything, but again I didn't think we could handle that conversation at the moment.

What I am not happy with about it is my wife is EXTREMELY tired and fades FAST after 9:00PM. Usually by the kids are totally put in bed and asleep it can be anywhere from 8:00PM to 9:00PM. So at night if our time starts at 9:00PM I am literally getting the worst part of her... she is tired... she doesn't think straight... she literally starts going glassy eyed. I on the other hand am normally solid until about midnight... but the point is... most of the time at week is late and I don't see any way around it.

And the other option is either taking kids out of sports or getting someone to take them while we go out, but I know she likes to be there for practices and I totally get this... so short of removing kids from their 1 sport hard to see much more time during week. My guess is many have made the hard decision to either remove kids from activities and gotten sitters during week or something.

Anyway... point is I could use some help in figure better ways to get 15 UA.

Also here were some random thoughts on getting 15 hours:

- Try to have 2 lunches together a week or 2 lunch breaksj together
- Try to have 3 or 4 walks a week.
- Have 1 hour after kids in bed at least 5 times a week
- Try to have exercise together at gym at least once.
- Consider taking 1 extra night of swim off so we can get the kids to bed early and have 2 hours of time.
- Make date night 5 or 6 hours... although longer than really desired it helps offset week
- Try to call one another at least a few times today... even if just for a few minutes. Not really lenghty UA time, but helps keep connected through day. Along with emails.
- Would much prefer larger blocks of time instead of the chopped up .25 walks, but is a start.
- When we lower counseling appointments we could increase lunches to 3 a week.
- We could plan a second short night out where someone watches kids and we go to coffee house or do what we want. Say someone comes to house at 7:00PM and we head out and come back at 9:30 or 10:00.

Keep it simple. Ask her how her day was. Start up a conversation about something she likes. Take an interest in her work. Take an interest in her. Compliment her. Buy her favourite treat. Download her favourite movie. Run her a bath. Take care of a job she hates. Leave her a jokey little note somewhere she will be surprised.

You can make *a* lovebank deposit without having her UA time at all. Think of it as drive by needs meeting. You won't be able to spend hours together pouring huge amounts into the lovebank until you get it started with a few little pennies. A constant stream of pennies. Think like her. What can make her day better?

You can indeed meet an RC need outside of UA time.

Domestic support on my list and it's an easy peasy one to meet in a slightly more intimate way than just doing laundry. If someone makes the home welcoming to me or just brings me a hot cup of something when I need it I appreciate it so much!



Perfect.

Asked her to lunch today and she said yes and that she wanted to go to her favorite place. So took her there.

Asked her about her day and asked her about the house she saw online that she would like us to look at and did a little dreaming. Talked about kids and work.

Early on she wanted to ask a question that could have led us down the wrong path.. she said... "as much as I am scared to ask this question... but are you really wanting to stop going to counseling"

I simply said I would really rather just enjoy our lunch together and not talk about that during lunch... she immediately said ok (not angry or anything) and then I immediately asked about her day and how soccer went with the boys last night and about the house she saw.

She feels that way because she is in withdrawal. She will have more desire for you to meet the intimate emotional needs when she is in love with you.

There are 4 intimate emotional needs that need to be met regardless of how she or you rank them. They are: Intimate Conversation, Affection, Recreational Companionship and Sexual Fulfillment.

Fill your UA time with these 4 emotional needs, regardless of whether or not she says she wants them. These are the emotional needs that cause people to fall in love.

You need to be planning 15 hours of Family Commitment (FC) each week as well as the 15 hours of UA. This will take care of her need to spend time with the kids. They will not be short changed. Here is a sample schedule I posted on another thread:

Sunday: Church, (4 hours FC)

Monday: mom babysits, dinner and shopping (4 hours UA)

Tuesday: gym night (4 hours UA)

Wednesday: dinner out with kids then play in the park (4 hours FC)

Thursday: gym night (4 hours UA)

Friday: game night with kids (4 hours FC)

Saturday: take kids to the pool (4 hours FC)
Susie from church babysits, eat out and go for a drive (4 hours UA)

I come with a heavy heart to share my wife has said she is going to walk away from marriage of 16 years with 3 children 5, 7, and 9. We already had a counseling appointment today for 90 minutes and she said she was going. Here is the gist of it and also the email I have sent to my church leadership. In there you will see what she says is her number one struggle from me:

<<
I am sharing based on how I heard things and how I understood it.

- She shared that she knows that her choice goes against God.
- She said she would meet with any or all of the people I have contacted (leaders).
- She said she understands that no one will give her a pass and no one will say it is God's will that she walk away from marriage.
- She said she agrees with my theological and my belief we should have strong boundaries. She just doesn't agree with application and feels she does have strong boundaries.
- She said that she is at a point where she is willing to accept the consequences of divorce and disobeying God... because she can't see it getting better.
- She said it is not what she wants and she knows it is not what I want and she knows it is not what God wants, but....
- She said she knows she should stay and work it through, but there is a hopelessness of it she is feeling.

I asked what it will take for her to stay and fight:

- Ultimately she kept going back to we have been in counseling for 15 months so she sees it as not able to improve... (so in the end I feel there really isn't anything I can do to persuade her to stay and fight.)
- Counselor told her that was a good question (what will it take) and asked her again.
- It comes down to she wanting to be trusted 100%.
- She seems to understand why there is some difficulty with trust, but she feels there hasn't been 100% trust for our entire marriage.
- I said that there has been growth by both of us, but my primary growth was with 3 core love busters many men struggle with. Counselor and wife both agreed there has been tremendous change there. Counselor confirmed there has been other growth as well in other areas. HOWEVER I know my growth had NOT been focused on just trusting her 100% yet... so I told her that is what I want to focus on.
- She said she wants to know that when she is talking with the swim coach or with her co-worker or with her boss that I trust that she will not allow anything to happen and she does have a boundary up... she is just friendly. She wants me to be able to ask questions about situations... but not with the purposes for "having to know" to "checkup" or "make sure she isn't doing anything wrong".
She said she felt like we reached out to Pastor and Wife and she feels they gave us all the tools to fix things and 6 months later we are not fixed so why would now be any different?
- I / we met with Pastor I believe 3 times over 6 months and she feels since I didn't continue to keep accountability or keep meeting with someone whether it be with Pastor or Elder that why would it happen now.
- She said she was talking to one of 3 ladies at least once every day and she said each and every time they kicked her butt and said she cannot walk away from this marriage, that it was not Biblical and that she needed to stay and make the marriage work. She was upset I was not involved in daily accountability and didn't do the same.
- She feels like I don't want people to know of anything that may make me look bad. (Yes... I don't want to look bad... who does. But I am willing to share anything and share my thoughts regardless of how it makes me look.) My marriage is too important.

So what can I do...

- Wife left the room and Counselor and I talked. He said... you have to come to accept that Wife has certain aspects of her personality and the way she interacts with men that you have to be OK with and trust her. He said we still hold the big things up like having one on one lunch with another man and other bigger examples, but the other things that make me feel uncomfortable I need to come to being ok with. He said he believes I can, but just like Wife has to show she is trustworthy and build that trust with me I have to show her I can accept these aspects without mistrust before she trusts in my actions. Of course none of this matters if she is not around for it to happen.
- I asked Wife to find the grace to allow us to continue working and allow me to work on that specific desire she wants... and not walk away. She did not say she would.
- I leave counseling today with no idea what is going to happen next.
- I don't know what I can do other than actively and willingly let her know that I am not going anywhere and willing to work on what she says she needs from me.

What Do I struggle with... (openly sharing what makes me look bad)

- To make it clear I have just as many struggles as my wife... probably more.
3 love busters I struggled with and have almost eliminated are (wife has confirmed I haven't been doing these for a while):
Demands
Disrespectful Judgment
Angry Outburst
- For years I allowed bitterness and resentment build up and this I know has hurt my wife as I know she didn't feel loved by me. It doesn't take away the actions she was taking that was doing the same to me, but I did NOT handle it right and allowed bitterness and resentment. I feel I have let this go and Counselor has told me he feels I have as well.
- I do have a struggle with trusting my wife. I think this is number 1 issue that I need to overcome for my wife... the one thing she clearly needs from me. In general I am a person that can trust others unless you break it or continue to break it. However in the area of matters of the heart I believe I have this self preservation or protection mode that puts me on high alert. Meaning once I have been hurt by my spouse I believe I get into this protection mode of not wanting it to happen any more. So I sort of feel I have to stay on top of it or to make sure we don't get back into that situation. I have valid reasons from certain actions to have trust issues, but I believe due to past pains going back to childhood and the protection mode I go into... it leads to things coming across too strong and simply as not trusting at all. I know Wife must feel totally untrusted and she is feeling like it can't change.

What do I need...

- I need 2 Godly men who feel led by God to be my accountability partners. Men who will be honest with me and challenge me and not allow any biblical compromise. Regardless of whether wife stays or goes I need this. I can't do this alone. And possibly in a men's group if one of these 2 men are part of one if wife is not at this point willing to attend a couples group.
- If Wife is willing... I pray that several of the women here will be willing to stand with her and support her on a regular basis as well... not compromising Biblical principles. To help give her the strength to be willing to continue the marriage.
- I need this spiritual battle over and my family in tact, my wife loved with her needs met and my children protected and loved by the two of us as one.
- If wife is willing... is there a life group we as a couple can go to and be open with and get support of other couples. I don't believe she is willing at this point, but I want to know of a group that would be accepting of us and willing to help be there with us.
- I feel so far from God right now... my own sins, my struggles, the pain... I need help in feeling his love.
- We need your fervent prayers... Wife does not see a way to reconciliation... she is tired... she is hurting... I am as well.
Thank you for your prayers
>>

So that was the email to my church leadership.

What can I do (without wifes willingness) to try and make this work. I don't think my plan a was working or going well enough. I struggled with trusting her and I know it comes out. Is there any hope?

I have been a Christian pretty much all of my life. I have always been an active church member, and am presently a church elder. I know a great deal about church discipline and it's application to Christian discipleship.

And I would never try to use that mechanism to solve conflicts in a marriage!

Do you really think your wife accepts her actions as being opposed to God, or do you think it is more likely that she is tired of you trying to deal to her from a stacked deck of moral superiority? You can't keep playing the God card on your wife.

MB offers you a plan for recovering your marriage. It isn't a smorgasbord. You can't pick out the pieces you like, and then turn to your church leaders for the rest. You might end up feeling like you did everything to save your marriage, but that is just deceiving yourself.

Is she still working with OM? Do you have spyware in place?

Plan A has nothing to do with displaying trust. Plan A is about being the best husband you can be. It is about doing things that make love bank deposits and not doing things that make withdrawals. You have been unsuccessful at increasing your account balance in her love bank, and remain seriously overdrawn.

I suspect that your attitude toward her has much to do with her giving up. She needs to see you as an equal partner. Instead, you keep assuming the role as the head of the household. Trying to act as the authority over her has drained her love bank. She is at the brink of rejecting the entire marriage model you present, because she sees no place in there for her, and thus no hope.

You need to try a real Plan A. Knock off being judgmental. Be fun instead. When your wife is in love with you again, she will enthusiastically resolve the relationship issues. But she will not be willing to work on these issues if she sees nothing in it for her. As I said before, I am a Christian, and so is my wife. We have a very strong marriage. We have recovered from multiple infidelities. But I have to say, if I were your wife, I would feel like running from you, too. You are way too pharisaical in your approach to things, and you are just not any fun to be with. Change that.

Eureka,

My wife has not had an interest in looking at Marriage Builders. Unless the counselor has told us to read it she hasn't. She did read His Needs / Her Needs and that took her 3 months to go through.

I however am very interested in marriage builders and the concepts so I am reading and trying to implement everything I can as fast as I can. I have read His Needs Her Needs a while back, but going through Love Busters now... which I wish I had read first back in March 2013 when we started counseling.

I have shared with my wife about Love Busters and what I see that I had been doing wrong with Demands, Disrespectful Judgement, and Angry Outbursts. She has said that in the last month to month in a half she has not seen any of those three. She clearly stated things are EASIER. Further down I will try to expand on what I believe is the core issue for her.

I didn't reach out for them to discipline... these are people she trusts and respects. We have know most of these people for 15+ years and they care about us. Maybe it comes across that way, but I don't want discipline... I want support to help us through the tough time and encouragement to continue forward as I am a 100% willing partner to work on whatever changes I need to make. I don't expect them to solve anything... but when we have people that love both of us and our children and there encouragement means a lot.

All I can go by is what she says... and she says she knows this isn't what God would want... BUT for her things are bad enough that she is willing to accept HIS forgiveness and the consequences than to deal with the struggle. SO I MUST determine what it is that is the struggle and FIX it from my end.

I think she is tired... I think she is hurt... I think she has switched off. I am tired... I am hurt... I just haven't switched off.

Our CORE issue has always been boundaries with the opposite sex. I have explained to counselor what my boundaries are (and they are in one of my first couple of posts). Counselor has stated he really didn't see any problems with my boundaries... but in the end my wife does NOT agree with them.

I am trying to really examine what it is that I do in regards to boundaries that has made it unbearable for my wife. One of her struggles is not being able to explain her thoughts OR I have simply had difficulty getting it or understanding it or even hearing it.

My wife is extroverted, very gregarious, very outgoing, playful person, and not very mindful of things. She will call other men baby, darling, and maybe some other names. Most men quickly become her friend and she tends to gravitate to men. She will tell you the same. She finds women catty or too much drama where men are less like that.

I lean to the introverted, attention to detail, and not considered outgoing UNTIL I know you and then I can be your best friend and loyal friend. I am very mindful of things. I have what I consider strong boundaries and don't go out with other women and don't call them pet names and the like.

Now... you mention "moral superiority". It is very possible I may have come across that way to my wife... especially with the disrespectful judgements I made in the past. Yes... I think strong boundaries are better than week... but I have learned that the way I shared this especially when it came out as demands or disrepectful judgments probably does make me seem "morally superior".

We both came from broken homes... my parents divorced and her parents did... her mom did 5 times I believe. So we have a stacked deck in that we have not had wonderful examples. But I don't believe the past has to control or dictate our future.

Let me expand on boundaries... although most everyone I know has said they don't see any issues with my boundaries... I believe she simply cannot do them to the extent I do, because of her personality...

AND let me put my heart completely out here as I think I have some deeper issues. I have been hurt many times with broken trust in the past. Not just some by my wife, but in big ways in childhood and early adulthood. I think I am allowing fear to control me.

So what if many people think my boundaries in general are good... if I am putting too much on my wife or making her feel like it is impossible for her to be her where is that going to get me.

She said she gets knots in her stomach when she is at work and she wants to eat lunch in the cafeteria and there are her coworkers (male and female) and she wants to sit and eat. I have managed to make her feel she is completely untrusted and doing something wrong by sitting at a cafeteria table with mixed company.

Or another example is she is going to meeting at 1PM where she and her project manager will be leading. She needs to meet with him at 12:30 to discuss the meeting before they meet with all staff. They have not had lunch and the natural thing to do would just meet at the hospital cafeteria, order a sandwich, discuss meeting and then head straight to meeting. Although I consider that ok as it is one of the "exceptions" rule. BUT... would it have made me "feel" uncomfortable. Yes... and I did tell her probably would have. She said although she knows she wasn't doing anything "wrong" and that she has no inappropriate thoughts or conversations she was sick to her stomach of it possibly happening if the PM wanted to meet quickly.

Another example. We had a teenage boy live at our house... a youth I mentored... back 7 years ago. I also led a boys small group. With Kelly's outgoing nature she always was hospitable and welcoming to the boys. After a while as we got to know the boys we would give them hugs when we saw them and so would my wife. I recall very vividly one day giving warning to my wife to be careful how she acted with these young men. Their hormones are raging and she is attractive and with her personality they may react. I think it is wise to be cautious of this, but what motivated me and what it made my wife feel like was terrible. She said later she would be sick to her stomach about giving one of our teen boys a hug. We went to his wedding and she was nervous about giving him a hug to congratulate. Why did I even give her any sort of advice about being cautions... BECAUSE I was a teenager he fell into the trap of falling for an older woman and through my interaction with that woman and that woman's interaction with me I had fallen in love with (as best I could at 17). Basically I lived what happened. Here comes my protection mode... I believe I was so fearful of that happening to me... my wife attractive... the young man was... with my wife's personality... I saw the possibility of something bad happening. So is it wise for my wife to be aware of the possibility of a boy having feelings like that for her... probably... BUT it made my wife feel UNTRUSTED and for years she felt bad for just being herself.

So... my fear and need to protect my heart has lead to behavior that has caused my wife to feel sick to her stomach and that she can't even be herself... like she has to stifle her personality.

I have proven I can change things about myself... by making changes to the three love busters. Now I have to focus on my ability to not let my fear / protectiveness of my heart to make my wife feel she can't be herself... be in her own skin... be who God has created her to be.

The light went on for me Thursday as to what I was doing... but now I have to work on not letting fear rule me and my actions. Yes... My wife has issues she has to work on... she is not perfect... but if my actions make her feel like she cannot be the person God created... her personality... then how can she be with me.

So now... she feels like I have known this all along... but I haven't... it just came clear to me Thursday. What did come clear was my 3 love busters and I attacked it. But because she thinks I have known this all along and because it has been an issue for almost entire marriage... that I should have fixed it. I can't debate her about it and I cannot argue with her about it as that is not what I should do.

What I did was when we talked today was to let her know that I NOW see that I am doing something that is causing her harm. I don't remember her ever saying she felt like she could not be herself and if she ever did that I was sorry I did not hear it or acknowledge or recognize it. But I do see that now. I asked her if she would give me 3 months to work dedicated on this issue and not go anywhere. I am a willing husband to work on my issues. She said she could not promise anything at the moment. I think she is researching the steps to divorce right now.

I think I am going to call Dr. Harley for direct counseling on this issue and what I should do. I would love for my wife to be around while I work on this so she can be a part of it and see it progress and give feedback.... but if she does decide to move out I don't know what the heck we do... plus the kids.

What steps should I start taking... other than obviously working on this fear / protection mode thing that leads to what it leads to.

No... I had tools in place an nothing was going on other than a business question. I can't find any evidence of anything going on.

Let me ask a question... Everyone here knows of people (MEN and WOMEN) who are very gregarious, very outgoing, everyone's best friend as soon as they meet... opposite sex and same sex acquaintances. Sometimes I feel like these people are doomed to being considered weak boundary people.

Or maybe I really don't get what is a proper boundary and what is not... I have to say that I probably have a skewed view on what they should be since I have such a fear and need to protect my heart. I believe when I try to really look at my inner thoughts... that I see those who are very gregarious and outgoing as more likely to get into trouble and affairs. My wife being one of them. Please help me have the right views. I know many things I believe are on track, because they are inline with much of what I have read her... BUT either my implementation or my internal view of it is off... it should not cause my spouse the pain she described.

I know you made a very long post, but let me pick this out for a moment.


What you did here was to lecture her. While your intent may be noble, the approach you took here was a love buster. My guess is that you do this A LOT and don't even recognize it.

I should know because I'm pretty good at it myself.

I appreciate your comment very much... I most definitely have done this for a long time... and I determined that issue about a month ago and have worked diligently and my wife has said she has seen my demands / disrespectful judgments / and angry outburst become almost non-existent.

I know I can make changes... but being able to see them is the first step. I couldn't see the above until I had read through part of Love Busters.

I didn't see how she was being made to feel until Thursday when it was the first time I ever heard it. Now one of her issues is NOT communicating her thoughts / feelings with me at all... she is now doing that. BUT am I a dollar short and a day late.

Thank you for your feedback... I agree as I look back... whether what I was trying to convey was wise or not I was never doing it right and it looks pharisaical.

At this point... how do you plan A when she is planning the steps to walking out the door. She is still in the house for now and don't know what she plans... but she has quit saying I love you back... she now just says all right. So should I continue to say I love you when I leave? Or end a call with her???

I suggest taking her out to dinner at a nice, quiet place. Let her do all the talking, and you mostly just listen. Don't talk about your relationship. Make the evening as fun as you can. Is that something you can do?

We had been having date night probably once every 2 weeks. Tonight is family night, tomorrow we go to my parents for 2 days, we come home Sunday to my daughters swim practice that usually she takes her to so I don't know if I could make it work. In the past when it was this busy she didn't want to as things were so hectic, but the only night this would work would possibly Sunday night. I can line up a babysitter and offer it and she can accept or turn it down.

She has clearly withdrawn the I love you so she is in full withdrawal mode and in her mind I believe is gone and just doing what is necessary for the kids.

At this point I need to hit plan a hard, but I need more advice and more details on this. I have seen a number of things about it, but I need as much as can be given to me.

I know family time has always been important so I am going to try and make this a very fun family night... games or something we can all enjoy.

But will try to see if she will go out Sunday. My fear is she will, but only for the purpose to tell me what she is going to do for separation... I don't think I can willingly help her do that.

Thanks for the responses, keep them coming. I am scheduled to spend time a little time on phone with one of the church leaders to talk about my personal struggles I need to end. Either way I am stopping it cold... but I need help in support in doing so.

Predictability is death, here. Do something that surprises her and shows that she is number one. Line up a babysitter right away. Family night is secondary to making some quick love bank deposits, as is visiting the in-laws. Don't make Plan A fit into your schedule. Fit your schedule around Plan A.

The only reason I have time to post to you right now is because my wife, who is a children's librarian, is late getting home from work. Her library is holding a teddy bear sleepover and she is busy taking pictures for the library's web page. You had better believe I'm keeping an eye on those teddy bears. They had best not try anything!

Update:

We made it through the weekend. mrEureka, I was able to get a scheduled date on Sunday night, but only for 2 hours. Could not get a sitter for any longer.

Friday we had family night out and I made it as fun as possible and anything that normally in the past may have made me "uncomfortable" to hear I did not allow to make me uncomfortable. What would be some of these... her sharing about work which involves men she works with every day. In the past I may have asked "probing" questions to "protect" myself... but instead I just asked more about the work.

My wife being very gregarious... will sometimes break out in "dance" to music. Does it make me a little uncomfortable... yea a little. Why? Fear. So I didn't let that bother me and just had a great time with family and did everything I could for fun that she would allow with our family.

What is so confusing is just 7 days ago (4 days before the she is leaving statement) we made love (we were doing this about once every 7 to 10 days) and as we made love she never seemed to be "not there" she always seemed to be there and she at the end of our love making while I was still holding her said "I do love you" as if she was trying to convince me. I only throw this out as that is so confusing from 7 days ago to ready to walk out 4 days later.

Saturday we went out of town to my family. I can't read into anything, but she allowed me to hold her hand some, she hasn't taken off rings, she allowed a hug and other signs... but I also have to remember she may just be trying to avoid open conflict.

Was it awkward... yes... as there is obvious major hurt and tension.

I did as much as I could for fun within our family environment.

As we were leaving my families home she went to the bathroom several times as we were leaving which I can tell was to hide crying. My guess it was maybe because she saw this as possibly the last time she is with our family since we only gone once every several months... but I don't believe me guessing why will help me.

As we were on the road... she had some tears and I reached over and held her hand... she squeezed tightly and more tears came. We obviously couldn't talk as kids were in back of van, but all I could do was hold her hand. Again... my thought is there is a lot of hurt on both our sides, but she may be wrestling with things.

Sunday night I she agreed to go out to dinner. I had several VERY FUN things to do, but they all ended before we could get a sitter and she said she was very hungry so we ended up with just 2 hours for dinner.

BEFORE we left for dinner she broke down crying again and I went to her and shared my heart and asked her to forgive me for my struggles that have lead to hurt in her heart. She says I am already forgiven... but she just says she doesn't know if she can do it again. Not sure what it again means, but I believe it simply means she doesn't want to struggle through hurt or pain... as neither do I. She says she can't promise anything... and she is just telling me where she is at the moment.

I didn't tell her this, but this is 100% recoverable in my mind so I do not have the mindset of quitting.

AFTER dinner we were driving around and she wanted to go look at a house WE had been talking about considering when we sale our house... back before she had decided she wanted to leave marriage. It is very confusing when I see her wanting to go look at a house together sort of dreaming, but at same time she has said she was leaving. She allowed me to hold her hand.

I am trying to hang on to positive that she has not left and has not told 5, 7 and 9 year old anything and still wearing wedding rings and still sleeping in same bed. I am also trying to rest in the Lord's hands that he will give me wisdom on solving my issues and that he will soften her heart.

After we had took a quick look at the house she said... "I just wanted to be honest here... I don't want to give false hope... right now I cannot promise anything. This is just where I am at the moment".

The last thing she said to me was I will not stay in a marriage where I am not in love just for the kids. To me this is the taker talking... I have heard my taker to the talking for a long time and it looks a lot like that.

I took a risk and I asked her how does she think people fall in love? How does that happen?

She said God puts it into your heart. I ask how though... and I said I believe he gives us the ability to love as he has designed us, but how do you see people falling in love. She said spending time together and caring for one another. I told her I agree... through time with one another, caring for one another mutually and doing as little harm to one another as possible... and that I do believe the "feelings" can come back between us and I am willing to rebuild that with my her.

I told her I had been wrestling with God on my struggles with the latest struggles just coming to light last week... and that I pray she is wrestling with Him as well.

At this point I felt myself being pulled into "trying to make a case for not divorcing" and I stopped.

She just said that this was where she was at at the moment and I ended with... I understand and hear you... this is where you are at the moment.

Then the conversation moved to the schedule of the week and the kids swim / soccer schedule.

I took the babysitter home and when I got back she was in bed waiting for me. She started to cry and said that she felt like she was judged with my statement about wrestling with God. She (not in a request, but very angrily) said do not question my faith... and then she said... I am sorry this is coming out so harsh sounding, but if I cannot share how I feel how will anything ever improve.

I told her that I was sorry as that was not my intention at all and asked her to forgive me. I said I have been working on that love buster and doing everything to take captive my thoughts and my words as I never want her to feel judged. I told her I hope she can recognize how long there hasn't been one per her own words and simply forgive me.

I thanked her for being honest with me about her feelings and sharing her heart about how something I did made her feel. I ended with I hope we get to the point where we can both share our hurts or complaints where we don't have so much emotion tied to them... she said she agreed.

I asked her if I could pray and she said yes... but because I don't trust what would come out of my mouth during prayer as a couple I just prayed the Lord's Prayer and asked for His help.

There have been so many things over the last 3 days that gives me hope, but I don't want to read into anything she has said or done... I need to 100% focus on my issues and rest in God for strength.

Right now I would like to get as much advice on every possible idea on what to do during Plan A. I would love to hear from others who have struggled and almost divorced (whether it be from infidelity or something else) and what one husband did to draw his wife back.

mrEureka said "predictability is death here". I don't want to be predictable, but I don't want to come across desperate and where she may "see my actions" as not genuine... although they would be she may perceive them as not.

Anyway... I will take as much help on Plan A as I can get.

That looks like some really good work making life fun on your part and some respectful conversations. Great job accepting her complaint. I'd suggest not letting any of those sort of conversations get too heavy or deep. I'd keep God out of it, even when she brings it up. She's too emotional for it. More, let her feel your sympathy with endearments and touching (I like the hand holding).

Your wife kind of reminds me of me. I dance wherever, whenever there's a beat and get teary very easily and I had poor boundaries once, when I didn't understand the love bank, too. I think her heart is quite open and there's more than a shot here.

Update for Sunday Night and Monday:

Sunday night wife fell asleep with daughter and then in the morning she came upstairs to tell me about the upcoming day and she had put her hand on my forehead while I was waking up and kept it there while telling me she was heading into work early to catch up on project (around 6:30). I can almost swear she said Love You as you went to leave, but now I don't even know if I trust my mind. Either way she didn't need to touch me... but then again wife is someone that touches.

She called and asked if I wanted to take a walk so I met with her at her office (we are literally across street) and took a long walk. We talked about her work and how things were going and about my work. A small amount was discussed about how the home we wanted to look at... as if we were doing it and she also said she was going to plan for us to see it. This is extremely confusing, because if you are leaving why would we look together... but then again she has told me she cannot promise me anything. All I can do is trust God will get me through no matter what she does.

Anyway... after we walked we were standing on the sidewalk and she leaned in and gave me a kiss on the lips. I don't know if this is habit or she testing how she feels or what. I am trying not to let my hopes go to high as I feel like a yo-yo at the moment. So this was Monday.

Monday night she took daughter to swim practice. It is normally over at 7:30 and usually (regardless of who takes her) can leave around 7:45 to 7:50 depending on how long it takes daughter to change. Wife text'd at 8:15 saying she was coming home. I figured one of three things happened.

1) Daugher and Wife went to grab dinner together... sometimes Wife tells me she will be late and sometimes not.
2) She got to talking with parents or someone (possibly coach). The male coach has been a little worrisome to me as he shows more interest in her than he does other wives anyone else. But as we now know... I have this fear and struggle trusting (even before my wife lied to me last year)... so my mind tries to go straight to "what could happen"
3) or they went long on practice.

So they were running between 25 to 30 minutes behind.

Now being honest... I now my fear would think she is hanging out with coach, talking, and getting closer with him and to me leaving me feeling nervous. But I know that is my fear talking. Is it likely she is sort of hanging out with coach. Yea... probably. She knows it makes me a bit uncomfortable, just because I see things about him... where I see he asks about her a lot, but not about other moms... but she also believes it is my issue (because I do have a long standing trust issue that I never really saw until now) and she isn't doing anything of concern that I should worry about. So do I think she is doing anything "wrong". I don't believe so. She is probably just talking about daughter or about swim team. I know my struggle and it is painful trying to fight my thoughts. I don't want to be blind, but I don't want me true fear control me. But here is where it gets more difficult.

When daughter comes in house she comes downstairs by herself. I naturally ask what happened... they are running behind. She said the following:

- Mommy asked me to work on my dives, but I only did that a few minutes and then I started playing on the slide.

I asked her why didn't they leave after she was done with dives. Daughter said:

- Mommy talked with (opposite sex) coach for about 30 minutes and then to (female friend) some.

Now... I can't really figure what I would talk about for 30 minutes with coach, but I am going to say I very seriously doubt my wife talked about anything that would break fidelity or faithfulness in our marriage. Yes my mind thinks about how many times my wife is there without me and how many times a week she may talk to him... but I struggle now with my own thoughts and fears versus true valid requests I should have on boundaries. Of course I am HYPER SENSITIVE ever since the deception and OS friend she had developed last year.

BUT...

When I saw wife I asked what put them so late. Her answer:

- Daughter worked on her dives and I talked with (femail friend) some. She didn't mention the coach at all. I chose not to share the discrepancy.

So here is the deal... I know I have a trust issue in general that has me projecting out what could happen if a lot of time is spent between opposite sex and a close friendship is built... that is my work and that is my struggle to get rid of (or at least reign in so it is not so intense)... BUT... when radical honest is not there is makes everything 10 fold more challenging. I am trying to tell myself maybe daughter was wrong and female friend was with them the whole 30 minutes or daughter was just assuming she was talking to coach when maybe she wasn't... however daughter (9) is pretty observant.

I have been crying out to the Lord (if He is even my Lord as I am struggling with my faith). Basically been literally crying out to Him on and off all day Tuesday.

Last night (Monday) wife fell asleep with daughter again... I go in there and tap Wife and ask if she is coming up... she didn't answer and she probably didn't realize I was there.

This morning wife comes upstairs and lays next to me in a spoon position. In my mind I would say this is a good sign... BUT she is also still with holding I love you when I say it to her and just saying "alright, talk to you later".

So today... she didn't have time to talk and she had told me they were having a going away lunch for a male coworker that was leaving. I did NOT let this bother me at all where before I might be thinking who will she be sitting with and who will she be getting close with and concerning myself over long term risk. I didn't at all... I had just told her ok... have a good lunch. Anyway... she came by to get her phone after the lunch and she had 2 ladies with her. I will admit it was nice she only had women... but she was very cold. She quickly would say... "well we gotta go"... twice. I was trying to be polite to the ladies and briefly talk to them to be cordial. Anyway... after the second time I said ok... Love you and she said ok see you later.

I know last year I was where she is... after finding out about the lies she had been telling and her going out with the other man / men I was having feelings so harsh to her that I doubted I loved her at all... but I knew I wasn't going to leave the marriage at all so I had to deal with it and push through... unless there was actual infidelity and un-repentance. I am long-suffering so it would have to go extremely bad before I would walk out.

She wasn't able to walk this afternoon either, but she did email to say we are scheduled to look at this other home on Saturday at 4:00PM.

Many would tell me why bother doing any of that stuff if she is going to leave... and I believe the counselor told me I shouldn't proceed with buying anything until we have commitment of rebuilding marriage as that would just complicate things... so maybe wife just sees this as looking and if it got serious she would make a decision. I don't know. Just confusing.

So just got off phone with her and told her I loved her and got the standard alright or ok good by. I can tell you this is so painful and so hard.

Is she just withholding love or is there NO love at all. I truly believe there isn't a feeling of "romantic in love"... but even I feel love for my spouse with all that has been done... it isn't this super romantic love, but it is clearly love that I still feel.

I had counseling Monday. I shared more about some things in my past that I believe have contributed to my fear and struggle that I have to own and he said it made more sense to him my struggle. Now he has always said he respected my boundaries in general and he NEVER told me they were bad... he said they were reasonable... just wife didn't agree. BUT... I am not sure he had the full context of HOW the request would come out or how it sounded to wife. Actually all those years they came out more as demands and disrespectful judgements when it should have been requests and respectful persuasion.

My fear is if wife decides she does love me and wants to reconcile and rebuild the love and get back romantic feelings as well... my fear is she will go to the opposite end of the spectrum and just say any "concern" I have over any boundary is just my struggle and use it to do what she wants regardless of feelings. If we are able to recover I would think there has to be "some" concern over the other person's feelings? Maybe not.

Anyway... Counselor said that he believes Wife is ambivalent right now. One minute she may feel some love for me and one minute she may not feel anything. He said last Thursday when she asked me to leave the room that he told her to continue to persevere.

He told me for now that he and I would work on my issues... the way my fear of hurt effects how things come out... even if the overall intent may be sound. He said he felt I could overcome my struggles and while we focus on that just to keep harmony... care for wife... love her consistently and not question her or talk to her about relational stuff especially as she is ambivalent... he said just give her time as I make life fun with her.

I forgot to add... I don't know why I concern myself over what other people may think... since she is the one threatening to leave everyone sort of looks at you as the only one with issues and that the one leaving is the saint putting up with everything. Maybe that is pride.

Tonight (Tuesday) I had daughter at swim and wife had boys home. As stressed as I was I got my act together and when I got home I gave her a hug and managed to get a kiss in where she didn't show signs of stopping it. She did not pull away or act like it was not ok... although it did seem a bit awkward.

I just joked around with her, played with boys and her at same time.

I then took care of boys by: getting the ready for bed, having Bible Study, start a load of laundry and then take trash down while wife soaked her feet. When I got back we talked about work and her struggles of the day. I did offer her hot tea which she loves, but she declined and I offered her her foot cream as I know she was going to need it after her foot soaking.

She went to our bed tonight and when in bed she said she needed to make a request. She needed to be able to abstain from any sexual intimacy for a season. She said she did it over the last X months, but she just is not motivated (or some word like that)... basically it came to me as I am not willing / ready. She asked that we do this while we work on things. I told her I was ok with it for a season and ultimately if she was unwilling I didn't want her subjecting herself to it. I didn't tell this part to her, but physical intimacy according to counselor can bring about more emotional intimacy unless the person is having "sexual aversion". I don't know if wife is having this or not... but if she is... strongly encouraging her to do it even from counselor may be bad. Anyway... I told her I was on board with it for a season. I hope and pray the season is like a month or two max... I hope. But right now I hope love can be rebuilt.

So tonight I asked her if she would be willing to just sit and we hold each other. She seem to be ok and repositioned so I could hold her... it was more me holding, but that is ok. We talked about the kids some... She still says things like "we have been here before where we both are away from God... things get bad... we move back to God and things get better and then we move away from God again and get bad." I didn't want to debate anything, but what is clearly different is we are getting counseling help and have spiritual leaders encouraging us and supporting us. Granted the counseling has been 15 months... but slow progress is being made and it has been actually speeding up in the last 3 months (well to me). Things are being identified on both sides. So in the end I personally think this is different. If we can both get help in fixing our individual personality disorders (whatever the heck they are) and learn to care for one another properly (hopefully with as much of Marriage Builders concepts as possible) then we will be all the better for it.

What I did tell her was I think God will honor our perseverance and He will be glorified for it and in the end we will have a stronger marriage. She didn't agree or disagree, but at least she didn't say no.

In the end she simply said she is trying. And when I left the bed to go downstairs and do the laundry I said "I love you" and she said "love you". That is something along with the overall conversation. At least it isn't... I have got an apartment and leaving.

This part is probably my pride... but I feel like my wife may look at me one day as "weak" or "the broken one" and feel like I was the only one with "significant" issues in the marriage. I shouldn't concern myself with this and I am not voicing it to her, but internally I know it is popping into my head. I mean... she is the one threatening to walk out not me. So most people look at the one that will be LEFT as the BAD GUY... when I truly considered leaving her for her issues a year ago and further in the past... but I knew I just would never do it as I had no Biblical grounds. So why does that bother me so stinking much.

You need to relax a whole lot. That's not to say your stress isn't very reasonable and natural but survival here depends upon being able to find your zen. Slap on a poker face and fake it till you make it. Things generally are pretty good between you and it's building. Even if she did move out, which I doubt she would, she would still be very open to love bank deposits and the deposits are working. So chill.

As for 'trust issues' and being wary of other men - that's just smart. I don't see any major red flags but I like that you are being watchful enough you'd notice them. All of this work is pointless if there's competition.

Great work on the lunch walks and great work on her request re SF. I think women can really, truly bond when it's clear SF is unpressured.

Stop expecting her to say I love you - that takes time. Also:



Cut it out! This message essentially says; "Our marriage is sucky to me too but I am doing what god wants and you should too."

It makes your marriage offer seem about as sexy as sweaty cheese. Your message should be about how great and light and fun the future is. With visuals like the new house. Not about how she's going to need to persevere like you do.

Women are different. Even when they logically agree that marriage requires work and a bit of suffering, their spirit leaves the building without a second look when this happens. The women who are really into effort are actually the worst. Women who work the marriage like a job end up losing all feeling and it's hard for them to get it back. Men don't have that problem.

You described her quote of not staying just for the kids as her taker talking. Would you be interested to know that Dr H often tells women to leave if they are unhappy and he always tells people to listen to their taker. He wouldn't say it to your wife because you're willing to regain the love but he would agree with the sentiment you don't stick it out for duty.

So quit talking about perseverance and duty. It's soul shrivelling to a romantic like your wife,

Particularly stop this inner dialogue where you are trying to figure out who is the bad guy. Part of PoJA is respecting the other viewpoint.

She's an emotionally led person who isn't going to listen to duty speeches ( thank goodness) but your wooing her is working. So relax.

100% agree with everything indie said, she saved me a half an hour of typing.

And good for you for bringing you daughter to swimming, what a simple and effective solution!

Internally I am not relaxed as all of this is painful. However externally I am showing as much relax as possible. I am showing love, interest, desire, talking to her.

It is this simple... I am absolutely willing to do whatever I can to rebuild our marriage.

I am acting more chill than I have in years. Slapping on the poker face... but I don't have to fake my desire and willingness and love... because they are all real. Yes... I have to fake not being fearful of a future without my family. And no... I do not feel deeply "in love romantically"... but I still have a strong love and it is still there and would not take much to me for us to rebuild romantic love.

I am trying. I don't say anything about it to her or ask why she isn't or anything. I just act like a husband should and tell her I love her like I normally would. She is not really this lovey dovey type person so I hope she doesn't have this adverse feeling to hearing loving statements.

I get it... it is not romantic and will not bring about feelings of being in love.

A side note... is my wife really a romantic? I am the more emotionally one and in touch with my feelings. Very able to articulate my feelings at any given moment and open to showing them to someone I am close with. I very much love affectionate touches, genuine kind words of affirmation, and I guess what many would say is parts of a romantic.

My wife on the other hand is very much like "the guys". Meaning you don't see very much emotion from her at all... Maybe she really is a romantic... just not really seen on the outside. She does read a lot of "christian" oriented romantic type novels. She just has never really seem to be the type that was a romantic. But I may just not be seeing things clearly.

Sometimes it is hard to see her as being "emotionally" led just because she normally keeps things in or just let's it wash over her back. I am putting a lot of effort into relaxing!

I think I am going to create a new post specific to questions about plan a. I thought about putting it hear, but it may get lost in this lengthy thread.

Thanks

Just a quick update... she is still here and has not walked out. She says the following once a week for the last 3 weeks: "I am willing to see where things go, but I can't promise I won't be in the same place 6 months from now". So basically it comes across as one foot in the door, but the rest of her body out of the door. Just very emotionally difficult to hear. Makes you feel like no matter what you do it may not matter. Also makes you feel like she is saying she has no issues whatsoever... and that I am the only one with issues. I can promise you she has plenty of issues. Coming from a family where the mother divorced and remarried 5 times she has Daddy issues and struggles telling the truth and so on. Anyway... no since beating her up... the point is she has things she has to work on and this is not all on me... although I believe it is all on me to get her to not walk off and do more damage then she could ever imagine to both of us and our children... especially when you have a 100% WILLING partner.

I have not had any failures on Demands, Disrespectful Judgements or Anger (based on her confirmation) and I have not expressed any uncomfortableness that in the past some things may make me feel in regards to opposite sex interaction for her.

According to what she said in counseling she will still abide by our original agreement on boundaries and work on it.

Counselor in individual session agreed that 3 weeks ago when she said she was leaving was the first time she has ever expressed how she felt in regards to boundaries or at least how they came across to her. He still says my boundaries are reasonable, BUT talking about them regularly or letting my fear lead to regular discussion in the past to protect was what she couldn't handle... and how she interpreted them never were what I was saying.

So I have not been discussing anything. Sure her friendliness with OS still makes me uncomfortable. She isn't going to be going to lunch with other guys or going out with them, but she does work with them all through the day. She says she wants to be able to go to work and not feel sick to her stomach if she speaks to a guy... of course I have NEVER said anything like not being able to speak to a guy... BUT for her that is what she feels like I am asking since she is so gregarious... basically her interpretation.

Probably once a week something is brought up (I haven't brought anything up... she has) that is very hurtful. Basically the comment about not knowing where she will be in 6 months. But at the same time she wants to look at houses with me and so forth. Very confusing. It is like being on a stormy see having my emotions high with hope one day and feel like no hope the next.

I am doing my best to Plan A... however almost every opportunity I suggest getting a sitter or make a plan she says no... usually she says it is because she it tired... which she really does have fatigue issues after about 9:00PM so I don't complain... I just ask again for a different time a day or two later.

Last week there was a rough moment when I asked if I could hold her in the bed and she said "I don't care". Hurtful... just part of the up and down emotional roller coaster.

So let's give some positives as I want to avoid focusing on negative:

- She surprised me today with a date night Saturday from 4PM to 10PM.
- She did hold my hand walking today.
- She has started allowing me to hold her in the bed or she takes initiative and per her arm around me until she falls asleep.
- An issue with her parents came up where they have ALWAYS tried to get her and the kids to their home without me. They have just never liked me. In the past we had to fly to see them so we had agreed early on that we would go as a family and not let them try to split us apart. She shared the latest conversation with me where they just asked again if only my wife and kids could visit without me. They have moved so they are only 1.5 hours away. Now our agreement has always been that we go as a family and we will not exclude the other spouse. I can tell you one thing if my parents tried that crap they would get an ear full and basically have to decide if they ever one to see the grand kids, because I wouldn't allow them to pull that crap. My wife did make a strong stand and said that the agreement we made in the past was one we both made and they cannot put that on me as it wasn't me controlling, but us making a decision together to protect family time and not leave out the other spouse. So I give her credit for standing up to her..... BUT... without dialoging with me my wife knew I was going to be out of town for business trip (happens 1 time a year) and she told her mom she would bring kids up for 1 day that weekend.

So my wife making decision without us talking is very undesirable and is a love buster to me (Independent Behavior) and the trip we had planned to go up this weekend got cancelled.

What I would like my wife to do is tell them NO... this is what you want... to remove my husband from a family trip and we are not going to play those games.

Now had my wife spoke to me about it before making a decision I might have said go ahead and go... the problem is that is what they want and they are getting there way and my wife let them... and did it without talking to me.

If my parents had called and asked them to come down while I was gone (BUT NOT BECAUSE THEY DON'T WANT ME THERE) then there wouldn't be a problem. Yes... we agreed we were not going to go fly across country to her various family members without the whole family... but if family is within a couple of hours driving distance I don't think either of us would have an issue if the other was out of town. What makes this different is that is what her parents want... they want to deliberately leave me out... for whatever reason neither of us fully understand why... or at least my wife has never told me they have ever give a direct reason.

Anyway... long enough.

I am doing everything I can to be the best husband I can be and try to meet her needs... at least the ones I know. Still hoping counselor will get to the point where we can go through the lists so I don't have to guess.

Sir, you should try to eliminate any overnight travels.
Dr. Harley says that married couples should be together every night

I understand Dr Harley's thoughts on this. In the past my wife went with me. It happens one time every one or two years, but now with kids it is difficult for us to all go. In the past when she could not go we talked every night for 15 to 30 minutes when we would both go to sleep. I also make sure we are in fairly constant contact.

If my job had me doing this regularly I would most definitely change it as I don't like being away from my family and see the risk. I also go with my boss (male) so it is 2 men... both married and Christians who keep each other accountable. I have extremely strong boundaries so I practically cannot get into a bad situation with OS as I don't allow it.

Thanks.

As an update... I am continuing to do my best to Plan A.

But have questions about specific things.

1st Section:

Wife was out shopping school supplies. I was at home working, but I took a break and my 7 year old and I stopped to do a 20 minute workout together. My wife called and asked if I could call 2 stores and have them go look and see if they had a very specific composition book. I responded with "I am doing a workout with son, but..." and before I could finish she said "Sorry to bother you... forget it... bye" in a frustrated sort of angry voice. Now what I was going to say to her was... "but... if you need me to call now I can or if you have time I can call them in 15 minutes and let her tell me which would be better for her".

What I did was simply call back and explained that I did not say I wouldn't do it, but just letting her know what I was doing and that I could do it right away or after and let her let me know how fast she needed the answer. I told her I didn't feel like I did anything that would warrant an angry response. She did apologize (still sounding a little frustrated), but we moved on.

- Should I have even bothered calling her back?
- Should I have have not even provided a choice, but simply said I would do it right away for her?
- Yes... I felt like she love busted me with anger, but should I have even let her know I didn't fee like I deserved the anger?

2nd Section:

She made a positive step by planning a date night this past Saturday night. So we started out on our date by going to look at a possible house for our family. (Yes we are looking at houses even though she had threatened to walk out 3 weeks ago.)

Anyway... On the way to look at house my wife had been texting someone (I normally don't know who unless I ask as she never really volunteers... but at this point scared to ask as she may think I am not trusting her at all and making her feel untrusted at every turn ). Turns out she was texting her coworker and he has asked her if she could take his "on call" time so he could go to a wedding. She tells me she agreed took the "on call" time for him.

I asked her does she think there will ever be a point where she will get feedback from me before she independently makes a decision that affects both of us. I told her that by taking his call I feel like she placed more value on her work relationship with him more than with our marriage and our date. She tried to say that she would probably not get a call� but I explained� BUT you could get a major issue and have to stop date completely. She agreed.

It started going south quickly as she started making excuses and I didn't want to get into an argument so I just told her I would get over it, but I wish she would have not taken call on our date night.

Now my wife was continuing to text and then said that coworker decided he wasn�t going to go to function now and would keep his call.

But she kept texting so I asked if she was going to be texting with him about work all night. She said no� she was just trying to see what had happened. I didn�t say this� but what does it matter what happened� he doesn�t need the call time covered...drop it and now continue the date.

The date still went well and no more discussion on this and I was able to move on without letting it control my emotions.

So... should I have said anything at all about this? I feel like according to MB I should be completely honest about, but not make demands or be disrespectful or get angry... which I don't believe I did any of those.

Anyway... things are improving.

I had counseling individually today... I get so frustrated when I bring up MB and he talks about how practical Dr Harley is, but then says something that seems to contradict. Today he said something like "sometimes we need to know when not to say anything and let it go". Maybe I am missing something... but does this go against MB? Do we let go of something that may bother us?

Yes that does go against Dr. Harley's advice.

Amazing how much bad counseling is out in the world. I was listening to a preacher talk about marriage on the radio in my car, just happened upon it. It was this exact same advice. Turn the other cheek. It was a long soliloquy about how to say nothing in marriage, 'even if the other spouses act is sinful.' Yes, this is DEFINITELY against Dr. Harley's advice.

It is no wonder the divorce rate is so high, with such a plethora of bad advice being given.

Have you listened to these clips? Beware of Bad Counselors

I believe I might a listened to those clips a long while ago... will listen again.

My wife has made it clear she isn't going to another counselor and I haven't pushed it because of where she is emotionally. She said she is not going to start all over and she likes this counselor. He is a "respected" counselor in the community and many people like him.

I simply can't make my wife switch. Had I known what I know now when we first looked at counseling I would have looked for a MB only counselor in the area... if one exists. But I didn't find out about MB until our counselor had us read His Needs / Her Needs and had us fill out the questionnaires for Emotional Needs and Love Busters. NO... we have yet to go over the answers. YES... partly because we had so many struggles that it seemed like every counseling session was a gripe session by one of us and recap of the last week full of love busters and what not. Both of us were doing it and we were miserable.

So when I look back I wish he was a more "forceful" or more "strongly pushing" an action plan... basically telling us to STOP everything we are doing and do only what he says... but for the most part he seems to not like to be forceful... not sure how to explain. Maybe he should have been stopping us from "sharing" so much of the "issues" and giving more action steps. Some sessions I believe it was just one or both of us talking.

I look back it I mostly remember him helping us to learn to listen and acknowledge the other person's complaints... but it always seemed like we were in the acknowledgement stage and not in the negotiating stage.

He is the one that lead us to His Needs / Her Needs and me to Love Busters... but what I don't like is the couple of statements made that go against MB that I think are very important... and how he has not been strongly pushing these concepts. They are there in general, but not in the way Dr Harley lays them out... and again how he has spoken against a couple of things.

Those 2 things deal with 15+ hours of time and with the statement that he doesn't believe you can come to an "enthusiastically agreement" on everything.

In regards to time... he felt that it was difficult to achieve (based on our schedule) and encouraged us to get at least 8 to 10. He explained to me later in private (when I complained about his statement) my wife was absolutely against 15+ hours and he was trying to give an initial goal she would agree with and hopefully that would allow some opportunity to improve our time together and get more hours. He said she was already herself saying it could not be done so he was trying to get her to meet me where she was willing. I would have been OK with the negotiating to at least 10 ours, but what I was NOT OK with was him saying himself that he felt it was not always reasonable based on schedules.

I DISAGREE with his statement about 15+ being hard in general... as I agree with Dr Harley that it is about scheduling and choosing what is important... but I need to avoid disrespectful judgment or trying to demand it from my wife if she feels it is too difficult at this time. But it definitely did not help having counselor say what he said. I have requested it, but she doesn't think it is possible. I have provided a tentative schedule that hit right at 15 hours (we really need 25) since have been a bad place.... but I cannot make my wife agree. This is why I am removing all love busters and doing plan a as best I can and will continue doing this. I have gotten my wife to agree to just have my daughter at swim class 3 times a week instead of 6 so this will help... but it helps more with family commitment time more than it does our UA time.

I think we are very close to looking at the emotional needs / love busters answers so we can specifically work on them. I told him I believe we really need to look at those and make efforts to focus on them.

BUT remember... my wife was walking out the door and going to pursue divorce just 3 to 4 weeks ago so her willingness may not be there and I have to plan A regardless of what she is doing.

I am thinking of going to Steve Harley for just me as my wife said she is not changing and MAYBE she would be willing to sit in at some point... or maybe doing the coaching program and see if she is willing to go through it... but I believe I have to wait a little longer after plan A improves things further.

The second thing he spoke against was the "enthusiastic agreement". He said he doesn't think you can ALWAYS come to an "enthusiastic agreement". Now I MUST SAY... that statement is correct based on what I have read. Let me expalin... take the POJA and the default action... if you can't agree you don't do it. This in itself means there isn't "enthusiastic agreement". Then you look at the resentment from not doing it or the resentment when the spouse does it anyway (Resentment Type A and Resentment Type B). Now if we are BOTH on board and BOTH agree that if we don't agree we don't do it and try to come to an enthusiastic agreement one could say we are in "enthusiastic agreement" to be ok if we don't come to an agreement.

But I am fairly certain in our relationship where my wife is more liberal or open to doing whatever, but where I am more boundary driven and conservative that we may run into a number of situations where the default action would be to do nothing and in turn my wife would be in constant resentment type A with "possibility" of negotiating something. The point is... could we always come to "enthusiastic agreement". I think that was his point... there are times you may not be able to agree and you end up with the default action of not doing anything OR allowing it to happen. Either way someone is not in "enthusiastic agreement". So just based on his statement I would have to agree there are times you wouldn't... ESPECIALLY if you were not 100% on board with being ok with things possibly not being done or not coming up with negotiated agreement in the time frame needed to make decision.

Anyway... I asked him... so let's say 10% of the time we can't come to enthusiastic agreement, but have to just not do it and we have one possible form of resentment... does that mean we don't follow POJA? And we don't learn it. He said no... he was just stating he believes there will be times you can't come to the "enthusiastic agreement".

To summarize... my wife is not going to go to anyone else... perhaps after plan A long enough she may consider the coaching? And I am sure she would not do it unless current counselor was ok with it.

I am going to do everything I can individually with him to constantly steer to MB concepts and push him to focus those areas. In counseling as a couple I have to be careful in steering as I do not want him contradicting anything with MB.

I know most everyone will say drop counselor... but I can't make my wife do it at this juncture. She will not.

Thanks

That's an interesting analysis.

Being able to reach enthusiastic agreement may depend on the state of mind you're in (The Three States of Mind in Marriage). If you're in the state of Intimacy, enthusiastic agreement is easier to reach than if you're in one of the other states.

Possibly what your counselor is getting at is that enthusiastic agreement may not always be possible for someone in your wife's current state of mind; i.e., "was walking out the door and going to pursue divorce just 3 to 4 weeks ago".

Regarding the reduced amount of UA time your wife is willing to agree on, it's not optimal but given your circumstances, I'd take what she'll give and steadily try to increase it. As you find more and more enjoyable things to do together, hopefully your wife will want to spend more time with you.

Sounds like you're in a difficult position with a narrow path to success. If your wife is open to you checking out MB coaching, I'd give it a shot.

I see what you are saying and that may be the case... but it did come across as a overall general statement from him which it makes it sound like he does not fully agree with POJA... especially since I was asking him to teach it (so she could hear it as well without coming from me). But I do agree with the above about the different states and how it would effect things. My wife has been at best in the 2nd state, but mostly in the 3rd state. We have been love busting each other for years so a lot of hurt is there on both sides... and I know for certain my needs were not met for years either... I can say I wasn't meeting hers either.

I agree on getting what she is willing to give... BUT I would say counselor is definitely not a FULL MB supporter in the fact that HE believes 15+ hours is difficult and does not tell us we must get 15+ to rebuild love. But he has also clarified with me that he has to look at where we are and try to coach based on what someone is willing to do. I still would rather him flat out say you need 15+... or you need POJA and here is how you do it and PUSH us to it... CHALLENGE us. Now I am on board with MB principles... wife however has been resistant over the past 6 months as I shared bits and pieces. Essentially I believe we have not been in the state of intimacy so nothing I say would be of benefit.

To give you quick background:
She has made 2 walk out / divorce threats. The first time in January and the things that she listed as issues causing her discomfort I removed. I also read Love Busters after that threat and realized I was doing 3 of them which she did not point out. I stopped those. I have asked her if I had done any of them since (around March when I read it) and she said no (other than 2 times where she felt judged and she told me and I apologized and re-worded). So as far as I or counselor knew the core issues she listed were removed.

We still had boundary issues for me in where she was fine with going to lunch with other guys (individually or multiple or in coed) where I wasn't ok with it (other than rare exceptions). As well as how she communicated with opposite sex and gave them a lot of attention... most say they feel like best friends almost immediately due to how her personality is. So fairly regularly I made requests on boundaries. In the end it turns out her perception of what I was asking was NOT what I was requesting AND because of my fear of my wife having an affair led me to bring it up too much which made her feel even worse like I couldn't trust her in simple relational things.

To keep it short (you can read past posts)... When she made the latest threat (and looked to be carrying it out) she introduced a "new issue" about how her perception of what I want in boundaries was making her sick as she felt she couldn't even speak to another man or if she went to the lunch room she couldn't sit at a table near another man or whatever. She simply said she couldn't live that way... she felt she was doing nothing wrong and had no desire to cheat and had no lust or anything. Just a friendly person. She had also felt going to lunch with other men wasn't doing anything "wrong".

Now I spoke to counselor and he has told me he definitely leans to my boundaries and not hers. He told me he saw nothing wrong with my boundaries and respects them. He has told me that they were a little more strict than his, but thought they were reasonable. The problem was my wife did NOT see them reasonable.

Since our last counseling after her latest threat he told me that we will still continue with agreement (that was made) to not go to lunch with other men or have regular lunch outings in coed setting, but stick to the exception rules of special lunches (like Birthdays, Holidays, retirement, etc).

So even though counselor had no issues with my boundaries (see one of my first posts in this thread to see what I live by) I am NOT married to HIM... but to my wife that did have issues.

So even though my wife was feeling sick in her stomach on her perception of what I was saying I never said or even implied what she was thinking BUT it was clear my regular requests for protection made her feel like I didn't trust her AT ALL (even though she had broken trust in several big ways in the past 2 years)... but she felt I would never grow to trust and her perception was she couldn't live like this. And my fear of affair lead to too much request / discussion and with her already being in the 3rd state it all mixed like oil and water.

So... I am doing plan A, I am back in the Bible and working on renewing my mind and thinking / acting like Christ wants (which strengthens my resolve to NOT love bust) and (strengthens my resolve to Love my spouse and make choices that care for her and her needs). I just hope she gets fully on board at some point so it isn't just one of us doing most of the work. Not saying she isn't doing any work or trying, because I see in the last week she definitely is... just that it will be great when both of us are giving 100%.

I truly believe we can be romantically in love, but I also believe it will take all the concepts Dr Harley lays out to have best chance of success and LONG TERM romantic love.

Now a days too many people think of marriage as existing without Romantic Love and that is sad. The Bible talks about unconditional love and many other love qualities... but it also talks about passion and I don't think you can have the passion described in the Song of Soloman without romantic love.

Ok long enough as I can make large posts... which is probably why very few are responding now... gotta learn to shorten things up.

In my previous marriage, my ex and I had the same issue you have. When I complained that I didn't feel comfortable with her traveling with the same man several times to out of state conferences, booking flights together, booking rooms at the same hotel together, etc, she said that I should trust her. We talked with a marriage counselor, our pastor, her best friend, all of whom advised her not to travel alone with another man. To this day, I don't understand why that wasn't enough to get her to stop.

I used to struggle with trying to understand her point of view, thinking, "Is it true, I don't trust her? Maybe I should just trust her." It wasn't until divorce recovery that a counselor helped me realize the problem wasn't that I was bothered by the possibility of me not trusting her, I was bothered by her dismissing my feelings. She shouldn't have needed a counselor, a pastor, a friend to tell her what to do; a spouse should care enough about the other's feelings to take action.

In your case, if your wife truly is in the state of Withdrawal most of the time, it'll be hard to get her to care about your feelings.

Just to make sure, have you read What's Wrong with Unconditional Love?. I had heard numerous biblical sermons on unconditional love in marriage and interpreted it as I should love my spouse no matter what. I think Dr. Harley's analysis of unconditional love is spot on, and I wish I had known about it a long time ago.

Do you have a time frame for Plan A? I've heard that if it goes on too long without results, it can be detrimental to the one trying to implement it.

Agree 100%!! I hope your wife starts seeing that too.

I am not certain what state she is in right at the moment. Clearly state of withdrawal 4 weeks ago. I have been doing plan A and I see some positive feedback, but I am sure she is in "guarded" mode so don't know what that puts her in. I know it isn't at the State of Intimacy. Both our Takers were in control for a while.

My wife is a avoidance liar. She has done it for years to avoid conflict. Now most of the time it was over things that were not a "HUGE" deal to me... meaning they were not really about OS boundaries.

My wife is not someone you can always count on. This bothers me a lot, because it is hard to have her back as I don't know when she has messed up. Meaning she losing things 50 percent of the time, she says she is going to do something and 50 percent of the time she doesn't (says she forgot). She is very absent minded and not very mindful of things at all. She has left people hanging when they were counting on her to do something, because she forgot. I do at times wonder if she has chemical issues in the brain. She is on anti-depressants, but I don't know what effect that has and if she could get completely off of them if our marriage was wonderful.

Anyway... point is I never know if what she says she will do she will do. A lot of times I see this is just a choice on her part to not be mindful and just not be considerate of others, but I don't want to judge her as I don't really know.

I mentioned she was an avoidance liar... well there was a BIG issue for me last year... last year I found she had a secret second life. (You can read earlier parts of this thread), but to summarize she was going to lunch with several other guys, then individual guys, one guy more so than others, going to breakfast and never telling me or lying saying she couldn't go to lunch with me due to work, but went with him / them.. I did do snooping and spying (unfortunately later after the consultant had left town), but I never found anything that would show an actual physical affair and no correspondence ever got really emotionally personal. Again you can read past posts in this thread. At the minimum my wife was emotionally connected at a close friend level and having some of her needs met (conversation, admiration) by another man or two. Never proof of any lust or sexual advances... just what looked like a close friendship with several OS.

You see my wife is a very gregarious person that likes to talk ALL the time. She will tell the same story 15 times in a day and I'll hear it 5 times and remind her she already told me. Again... not mindful.

My wife still to this day doesn't think she did anything WRONG other than LIE about going out with OS for lunch and breakfast. Again... see past early posts for details. She did apologize for lying to me at some point and that it hurt me, but that was it. If the one OS consultant had not left town and gone back to his home office (multiple states away) I still wonder if the friendship would have ended as was requested by myself and the counselor. Essentially that friendship built out of lies to me.

So do I "TRUST" my wife?

In the sense of... will she just go out and have a physical affair or be sexual with another man? NO... I don't believe she would at all...

BUT... do I trust she will not over time allow closeness build between her and another man and do I trust she will have up good boundaries to prevent mixed signals. NO... because in my estimation her boundaries are weak. The counselor has stated they are weak. And they do add "RISK" as he put it.

And do I trust she will do what she says she will do? No... not really. With a 50% hit or miss how can you trust that? She will tell you... almost 100% of the time I do what I will say. She will tell you she has not issues trusting me at all in regards to boundaries, because I am always open and honest and tell her pretty much everything.

But have there been times I have said or done something that would make her feel that I had no trust or faith in her in the past... yes. Counselor understands that what I was sharing are pointing out was not me saying to my wife I don't trust you... I was sharing my desires for boundaries... but many times it came across to her as there was never any trust (even before last years big deception) and she wants to be trusted. I know... I believe in earning trust and retaining trust through your actions... she doesn't seem to fully understand this. She finally got to the point to where she understood where I had some trust issues after last year with the specific situation where she lied... but it is like she expects me to get over that and fully trust quickly.

Dang... I am getting long winded again.

I don't understand either... I am stopping the things I was doing LB's and what not, BECAUSE I care for her and they were hurting her. Why can't she see this for me???

One of the last things she said before the last threat was "WHO was going to be the person who judges what is "reasonable" or not. I told her it is us... we have to decide and do it by protecting one another and discussing things (POJA). You see she felt my boundaries were unreasonable and that I was just insecure and jealous and wanted to know who would "reign" me in sort of speak. The issue is... most women I know (outside of a few) seem to like having good boundaries so being married to someone else would likely mean I would never have to discuss boundaries since that person also has boundaries... but I have to make this work with my wife.

At this point I can't really say much about boundaries... I have help steer us back to a point where my wife decides she wants to rebuild our marriage and is willing to try and meet some needs together.

Everyone (not here) keeps saying it could take years to recover... I say bull crap... it doesn't have to take that long IF BOTH commit to Dr Harley's methods. I see too many folks on these forums that have recovered and many pretty quickly who seemed to be in worse shape than we have been.

Thanks for your replies... it is hard going at this alone.

I probably should change "it is hard going at this alone." to "it is hard going at this without both spouses all in"... because she is making some efforts.

I can see the path to full recovery and a fully in romantic love marriage so clearly... but it will take both of use all in!

I just hope I can ride the emotional roller coaster long enough to get there... BUT make sure I am not causing any part of the emotional roller coaster so the love deposits can continue to flow without love busters to my wife.

If you were in love with your wife, you would be happy listening to the same story over and over. I love listening to my wife talk. It makes me feel connected. It doesn't matter if I heard it before.

So, what are you two doing to have fun? UA time is the way out of this mess. Disrespectful judgements are not (not mindful!?, I mean, seriously!)

That is a very good point... I wasn't saying that I didn't like talking to my wife... as I do want to be talking with my wife.

I am not trying to PUT DOWN my wife... I am trying to point out a pattern that makes things difficult in being able to trust what she says she will do... not only in matters of every day general stuff, but also with marriage. She wants to be trusted, but many of her actions reflect the opposite of building trust. The counselor has stated this and is working to help her with some of these issues.

In regards to the comment about talking... the point was she seems completely oblivious that she has shared the story multiple times to x, y or z person. Just like she makes a commitment to do something and then may just forget it. So the whole thing comes back around to never knowing if she will do what she said she would do... trusting she will do it... and being able to have pretty good certainty she will do what she says she will do.

Take a look at Dr. Harley's statement in His Needs / Her Needs

So let's say we are able to POJA something (although she is not following or considering MB)... I have a 50/50 shot that she will follow through as she in the past has demonstrated she just forgot... or it wasn't her intention to do something... yet she did it. Even if it seems she 100% agrees with what she said she would do.

IF she allows it I am doing:

- Giving affection: holding hands, giving hugs, giving kiss... but only what she allows. Emailing her regularly and sending texts checking to see how she is doing during day... taking walks with her during day at work (she works across street from me).
- Having Conversation: As much as she will allow. Usually plans about kids, house, possible new home, things we mutually desire to talk about.
- Recreational Companionship: As much as she will allow. Ask her to work out with me at home, work in yard, play game.

She requested no sexual intimacy for a season (don't know how long that is, but I honored the request.) Not like I have a choice, but I understand and respected her. I have done cuddling if she has allowed it.

I am only getting about 6 hours of UA time which is a problem and if you have followed all posts she thinks about 8 hours is doable, but not 15. So I take what I can get and hope as the love deposits build she will want more and be more open to it.


Listen... I am not telling her this. The counselor is pointing out that she is not mindful and that she needs to make efforts to be aware of her actions and take captive her thoughts and follow through with what she says. Not only in the personal world, but her professional world. That's how you become trustworthy... be consistent and follow through and do what you say you are going to do. I am just explaining here how it makes things difficult in the world of "trusting" she will do what she says she will do... because she says she wants TRUST.

I have no problem with someone pointing out something I am doing that goes against MB... BUT there is a LOT going on right now, I feel like I am in an emotional roller coaster and I really need some support and encouragement.

The only person my wife will listen to is counselor and although he agrees with many principles of MB and teaches some of them in his way... my wife is not looking at anything MB unless counselor specifically says to... and I am working with him to see if he will focus more specifically to MB concepts.

And yes... before anyone makes a comment... I was also doing things that showed my behavior to be untrustworthy (love busters like SD, DJ, AO). But according to my wife she has only felt me have DJ 2 times in the last 3 to 4 months... and I could see how she felt that way when examined how I said something and I apologized and re-worded so it was not a DJ. So I am doing everything I can to remove LBs from my life. If it is pointed out I attack with intent to rid it of my life / habits.

So please don't think I am EVER SAYING I don't have things to work on. I am CONSTANTLY looking at myself trying to find areas to improve for the sake of my marriage and me as a person. I can't change her... I can only change me and hope my changes and actions draw her too me and as I follow MB as best I can I hope to restore love and have her want to be on board and no more about MB, because she will see how MB is effecting me.

An update... I have continued doing plan A and this past Thursday my wife initiated Physical Intimacy. (We were in a season where she requested no Physical Intimacy and I was honoring her request).

So this is a positive!

We then had a date planned Saturday and we went out and had a good time. That night I asked her if she would be willing to be intimate and she said no. But I could cuddle if I wanted.

So I didn't say anything other than ok and I cuddled until she went to sleep.

I guess I need some encouragement as this is very hurtful and difficult. It was over a month before we finally had physical intimacy again and it is my number one need on the list. We had a very good date and I would have thought she would have been willing as I having being the best husband I can be to her and loving her and caring for her.

Remember she isn't really practicing MB... she is only doing what counselor requests her to do. So she isn't on board with MB concepts specifically.

What is such a struggle at times is I know she was at a point where she wanted to walk out... BUT so was I. The difference is I feel I am 100% willing to do what it takes where it looks like she is continually holding back.

Yes... my taker is telling me to "protect, protect, protect yourself!" Don't let her hurt you... don't put your heart out there over and over and let her trample it or treat it as something not important... BUT I know if I let my taker kick in then nothing will move forward.

So I guess I just stopped by for some encouragement as it is difficult and I just wish the process would move quicker.

An additional note... counselor had her read LB's independent behavior chapter... I don't know why he didn't just have her read the whole book as she also struggles with many of the LB's listed. I did make a request to her and asked her if she would be willing to read the "Setting the stage" chapters (I think first 2) as it was a very good leading into the other chapters... including the one counselor pointed her to.

She indicated she would, but she said she just read what he said to at the moment... but said she intended on getting to the first 2 chapters I thought was a good intro. Little disappointed, but as resistant as she has been on reading anything I am grateful she has read what she has so far.

Heading to my individual counseling shortly... his focus is to help me not "fear" or "immediately draw out to conclusion" a possible affair when my wife is interacting with other men.

What does this mean? I tend to see where something "CAN LEAD TO" and because of this I request boundaries fairly quickly before it builds.

Let me list my general thoughts on boundaries from an earlier post:

Apparently my wife's perception of these boundaries have been taken extremely different than what I have ever said. BUT I acknowledge how they have been shared and the frequency over the years has been more than I feel I should have needed to express things. To be honest we had agreed on these things before marriage 16+ years ago.

But now the wife feels building friendships with OS and then going to lunch with them is not doing anything wrong... which gets into the whole right or wrong argument that should not be needed.

Anyway... I am starting to feel like I am going into hostile territory when going to counseling. Yes... I don't want to immediately go to thoughts of a possible affair... and to be honest I never went directly to that until she lied to me leading a secret second life for over a year and started going out with several guys for lunch and the personal emails (nothing sexual).

So again I don't want to go to distrusting thoughts or feel like I immediately have to speak up to make sure boundaries are put into place to protect our marriage... so I feel I need some help in "relaxing" that sort of speak. But I don't believe my boundaries I have listed are bad or harmful to marriage... if anything I find it something that would strengthen marriage.

Anyway... again... as in my last post... just looking for some encouragement as I keep pushing on.

No one... not even the counselor will ever convince me we should not have good boundaries... but how we come to them and learn to agree on them is definitely something I want us to do with love and caring for one another.

Ummm�

I haven't read your thread, and I don't have time to do so now but I will, from the beginning, but...

Your ideas about boundaries are correct - they need to be high - and your counsellor's ideas are completely wrong. You do not need to learn to "relax" about your wife's friendships with other men. She needs to learn not to have those friendships!

Going to your counsellor is indeed going into hostile territory, if this is the harmful advice that you have to put up with. This counsellor is poison to your marriage and you should fire him, yesterday, He is nuts and should be reported to the authorities and stripped of his license! Please tell me you're not paying for this affair facilitation in the guise of professional advice.

Don't go! Stay at home! Run, Forrest, run!

I have a much better idea: she can stop interacting with men and you won't have any "fear" or "draw conclusions." See, when you are playing chicken and you recognize the risk, the solution is to get out of the road, rather than ignoring your warning signs.

Any "counselor" who tells you that you should learn to live with opposite sex friendships and just deal with your fear is a fool who has no earthly idea how to create a safe, happy marriage.

Please stick with Dr. Harley, a licensed clinical psychologist who specializes in creating great marriages and leave the novices behind. You will ruin your marriage this way.

Why don't you listen to Marriage Builders Radio? It's free, and you can hear a marriage counselor with decades of SUCCESSFUL experience explain the solution to this problem that actually works.

It will be a long read... I have a hard time keeping short.

I have to ask myself how much am I misinterpreting things.

Am I just a jealous guy and overreacting to things? He told me earlier he didn't see me as a jealous guy... just with strong boundaries.

If my wife speaks to another man out of the blue do I immediately go into alert? No... but I do want to know who it is and how he relates to my wife. I have never said... you can't talk to him or you are having an affair because you spoke with him or anything like that. Now over the last year and a half after the secret second life yes... I have been on HIGH alert. You will have to read past posts to get full picture. So right now I am probably on higher alert than before.

My main issues now... even if counselor was out of picture is my wife simply doesn't see anything "wrong" with going to lunch with OS friends or giving hugs to them when she sees them or calling them babe or darling or sending pictures of her lunch to them and the other things she was doing (earlier posts).

So we could argue "right" and "wrong" all day... we both see it differently. I have asked in the past... how much time together would become to much time? How many lunches together and how many more lunches with OS than with your husband is ok? What is the boundary? Would you go to dinner with OS friends? Would you go to a movie? Back then she could not answer those questions. All she could say was she didn't need a boundary as if they tried to be blatantly sexual or cross that line she would put a stop to it. Good... I am glad about that and I 100% if any general OS person even general friends she would put a stop to it... BUT... when the OS friend becomes a close friend... going to lunch regularly... texting them about her lunches and saying don't you wish you were here type of thing... that sort of relationship I don't trust anyone to not potentially fall in love because of weak boundaries.

In the end it finally came out that she felt I was saying she couldn't speak to anyone and it made her sick in her stomach as she is naturally gregarious, outgoing and playful and she felt I was asking her to not be herself... when all I ever desired would have been some behavior modification (not going to lunch with OS, not calling them by names like babe or darling, not doing a lot of touching OS in general). I never said don't be a friendly person in general just certain behaviors around OS.

BUT... that all made her feel like I was controlling her and changing who she was. And yes... you will see after all the past requests and then after finding out about secret second life I really struggled with Demands, Disrespectful Judgements and Angry Outbursts, but she will tell you that you would be hard pressed to see that in the last 3+ months)

But in the end my BIGGEST issue for me is boundaries. In many other areas we can easily work through things. Not all areas, but many... but the main issue is boundaries. She thinks she has good ones and I desire better boundaries.

Yes... she has agreed to no longer going to lunch with other men and she agreed to no longer contacting guy that she built a friendship with (via deception). Again... you will have to read past posts or I could end up going way long here.

I have been watching closely and she hasn't been going to lunch with other men and I don't believe she has since late last year... she has actually for last couple of weeks started to go with me regularly. But she did fail and reached out via email to the OS guy once (the consultant living up north), but when found out she apologized and said she didn't think she did anything wrong just saying hi and seeing how he was doing. Counselor was very disappointed as well and has been checking with her to help hold accountable. You see the issue... she sees things as not being "wrong". She doesn't see things the MB way in general. I still have hope she will get it one day... but I am trying to make sure I kill all LB and make deposits so one day maybe.

Thanks for feedback.

I am scheduling appointment with Dr Harley's son... don't know if Dr Harley himself is doing any counseling over phone. My wife is not going to switch from our current counselor, but I want to make sure I understand MB principles and see if Steven Harley sees any issues with me... do I have any "issues" sort of speak that he sees I need to work on.

If Plan A can bring about feelings of love from my wife then perhaps at a later time I could get her to consider coaching. I just have to take it a day at a time to make sure I do everything I can to not LB, to meet whatever needs she allows me to meet. And to daily make it safe for her to talk to me about anything and to be fully honest so her past conflict avoidance lying will never be a problem again.

Since she is not going out to lunch with other men that is a BIG weight off. And another positive is she has said she will still "work" on boundaries. Just don't know what this looks... especially if counselor isn't doing MB.

Thanks for feedback... I have a lot of continued work to do.

I just feel my taker wanting to jump up and I don't want the bad side of the taker kicking in... (also knowing there is the good side of taker as well).

Hey Markos,

I am indeed now doing this. I actually paid for the service so I could go back and listen to a lot. I hope one day my wife will be willing to listen. I know I could make a request, but right now I don't feel I can do that... I am hoping plan A will get our love bank building so she would be more willing to listen.

But trying to get Love Bank up with UA time is at about 5 to 7 hours at the moment is tough. Again... pasts posts will show she thinks 15 hours is unrealistic so all I can do is get the love bank up as high as I can and hope she will be more willing to creative ways of getting UA time together while juggling 3 kids and so on. I have shown on paper how we can get it to 15... now getting her willing to do it and desire it.

And one way is me continuing to build the love bank one step at a time and not knock it back with an LB.

Thank you Markos.

That's great news! I can't wait to hear how it goes.

If you address this problem with Dr. Harley's son, I'd be interested to hear his advice.

Overall, it sounds like things are moving in the right direction, but probably a lot slower than you'd like. Keep up the good work!

Remember the scheduling with Steven Harley is just me... my wife hasn't agreed to switch to anyone else or do it together. Basically this is for my sanity.

And you are right... it is moving so slowly. I feel like the counseling (that I can't force my wife to withdraw from) gives mixed coaching. One day he will nail an MB concept, but then contradict it.

Thanks for encouragement.

Today was our couples counseling. I always get sick to my stomach before going as I have no clue what is going to happen or be said. I feel like I am waiting for the other shoe to drop and either my wife just says... I don't feel in love so let's end it or counselor coaches something way against what I believe in MB.

Today he asked how things were going and my wife said she felt that we have been doing what the counselor calls "easy" and having "harmony" in the home and avoiding any relational discussion or issues. Basically just do life and avoid any topic that may generate conflict. But she acknowledged that would only get you so far as you are just doing easy and she felt we had to move to the next step to "work" on marriage.

Well that was good to hear.

Now I have been doing Plan A as much as my wife allows... but with very little UA time it it more difficult... but I am making headway I believe.

Anyway... he had us go through some sort of communication worksheet that we rate various statements about our spouse, how much it bothers us, and then rate ourselves. He then had use list the issue ones and each one of us discussed some aspects of it. Things like: Your spouse doesn't listen, your spouse talks to much, your spouse interrupts, your spouse shuts you up, your spouse talks about difficult things too much, your spouse withdraws when upset and so on.

I sort of looked at it as recognizing Love Buster type behaviors where you continually interrupt spouse or shut them down and so on... communication behaviors. Yes... it is good to know that we both recognize our own areas we have struggled in, but it just doesn't get us to any action plan (like MB).

After going through list he goes back to saying if we do discuss something he wants us to make sure we at least acknowledge the other person even if we don't agree. We can re-assure the other person if we really mean it, but if we don't agree just acknowledge.

My first thought is (but didn't say it) well... acknowledging one another is great and needed and I see that in MB guidelines... but what about resolution. He continued and said of course this is just the first step and you want to be able to work through it.

BUT here is the contradiction... he said sometimes you are just going to disagree so sometimes all you can do is acknowledge and let it go. WHAT??? Am I missing something? Again I guess anyone who doesn't support MB fully will see this as a possibility. So what I sort of hear is if my wife builds a friendship with an OS friend or does something that is hurtful and I really would prefer she not do it... she can simply acknowledge I feel this way, say she disagrees, we don't resolve it, I should just let it go and she keeps on doing it. I am trying to keep my emotions out of this so tell me what I am missing.. am I off base.

I mean I understand something time sensitive may not be POJA'd in time and the default is to do nothing, but what I hear is the default is to acknowledge and if she disagrees then you may just have to let it go. Well... since wife is not doing MB then that may be my only option, but could not see that lasting long term.

Anyway... the positive note for me was the wife started to share about her reading the independent behavior chapter in Love Busters and she said she recognized she does a lot of this (didn't say from an OS friend standpoint, but in general) and she could see how that was not good and we should make decisions that we both go along with. Again she wasn't referring to anything dealing with boundaries with OS, just general stuff.

She didn't say she read anything she didn't like... she read a little about POJA that was discussed some in that chapter (I don't believe it fully went into nitty gritty of POJA), but enough that my wife seemed to think it was reasonable at least in the examples of late where she just did things without considering me.

So my hope is this may segway into other areas of the LB book and MB concepts. But I must be careful to not push it or "preach" it at all. She has to come to this herself. Don't know if she ever would as I don't think she would like the default position of doing nothing in "all cases"... even if the goal is to find solution... because she (and I) possibly wonder how do we come to an agreeable solution on OS boundaries.

Anyway... she was still sort of distant in session. But trying to hang on to hope. Right now with almost none of my emotional needs being met while I am doing Plan A (what she will allow) is very frustrating and discouraging.

Counselor asked what 2 things from that communication list did he want us to have our spouse work on. She said she wanted me to not withdraw if I am upset (and have struggled with that in the past). He asked me and I said I think it would be better if we could start meeting emotional needs and avoid love busters and doing that I fealt would help snowball a lot more positive things.

So next week we FINALLY are going over Emotional Needs Questionnaire. My wife has not done it yet so she has been asked to get it done.

I am going to use my individual counseling to try and drive him towards more MB stuff... especially if my wife seems to get some of it after reading about IB in the LB book.

Yes... I wish I could get her to say let's do the Online Seminar with Courses and Coaching and Steven Harley... but I have to take what I can get. One day at a time.

Last thought... I look at it as a privilege to know and understand what my spouse desires and needs and then a privilege to meet those needs. Now have I always done that... absolutely not... have failed miserably in the past... YES... BUT... I am actively pursuing this goal daily so I can see the privilege it is and live it. I just want her to desire the same... and right now she isn't there.

Does your wife know the anxiety you feel about counseling? I'm not suggesting one way or another whether you should tell her, just wondering if she knows.

That IS good the hear! Especially recalling earlier in your thread where you indicated she was ready to walk out not too long ago.

You're not missing anything. Does your counselor know you're uncomfortable with your wife's OS friends? If he/she does and doesn't counsel your wife against that behavior, I'd be very unhappy with the counselor.

That's progress! Without trying to push her into it, I hope you can encourage her to keep reading. Have you guys tried reading it together, such as you read aloud to her or she reads to you? It can be very bonding to read books like that and discuss as you read. Be sure to stay respectful if you hit any disagreements though.

My hope too.

Sorry to hear about that. It sounds like you're working really hard at this, and I'm sure the slow progress is discouraging. Your thread title includes "need support," and I hope you find some on this forum!

That's a nice perspective, that it's your privilege to meet your wife's needs. I learned something like that about cooking: eating is necessary to sustain life, and what a privilege it is to cook for someone and meet one of their most basic needs. I, too, hope your wife comes to realize that privilege.

Did you schedule the appointment with Steve Harley?

I am doing this in the morning as I missed time to talk to them on phone. Already put the request in via web, but going to get discount and have to do it on phone and I missed them... they closed earlier than I thought and an hour behind me.

It's been a while so I am going to do a little catch up here and look for some feedback.

She knows. She has said in the past I shouldn't feel that way. Mainly because she doesn't recognize things the counselor may say that go against MB or are a slightly different version.

He did help orchestrate an agreement where she agreed to not be having lunch with other men. Coed lunches would be only for special events like a project success luncheon or retirement luncheon or training luncheon... basically the exceptions. Not just a group of guys and gals going to lunch for recreation. And if there were to be an exception we would communicate it before it happened or if it was something unannounced as soon as possible.

She was to also quit all personal interaction with the OS friendship she created with consultant who came in regularly from out of state. We never found evidence of anything more than a friendship and snooping didn't reveal anything else. She had a little more contact for a couple of months for work related and then we found one "personal email" interaction with him that the counselor... not sure how to put it... expressed it not being a wise choice and asked her to recommit to keeping the interactions to work only (if he still was on the project) otherwise stop all interaction.

The OS friend is no longer on project, lives 6 states away, and nothing new has been found for interaction at all. She also doesn't appear to be in the same funk / cloud / fog she acted like she was in a couple of months ago.

I personally wished he was stronger on danger of OS friends and the strong danger. Yes... he has stated they are risky, but has not been as solid is how MB describes it.

So far no reading together and she is not actively reading anything MB. She read His Needs Her Needs late last year and the IB chapter a couple of months ago.

Thanks. Will give some updates in next post.

Let me recap some things in general about who we are and what has happened. I am listing struggles my wife and I individually have so I am not trying to be disrespectful in listing what either we both admit to or the counselor points out:

- Wife is the bubbly extravert who knows no stranger and to most seem like an immediate best friend.
- I am slightly introverted and more reserved until I know you.

- Wife's OS boundaries are very weak. Doesn't see a problem with OS friends, having lunch with them, being playful with them (not sexual) and enjoys banter with them. I honestly don't know where her boundaries are other than blatant sexual talk or sexual touch.
- I have strong OS boundaries, what I think are MB based boundaries.

- Wife has made many independent decisions without me.
- I honestly have done some of this in the past, but much less frequently.

- Wife tends to not be mindful... this is what counselor calls it. I guess it is like she isn't even aware of what is going on or just goes with the moment... free spirit.
- I am very mindful.

- Wife lived a secret second life building OS friendships with at a new job a couple of years ago lasting a year before I knew. She lied about OS friendships and built what I believe to be a fairly close OS friendship with two guys (one in particular) and found personal emails revealing this. Never anything sexual. Never anything expressing love, but definitely expressing good friendship and personal in nature. Not to the point of intimate desires... but based on post title Stages of Intimacy some where between Opinions and Hopes/Dreams. This OS friend are no longer around and no evidence of any interaction.
- I share everything I can with my wife as I believe she should know everything.

- Wife has little to no sex drive and medicine does have effect on the libido. However normally once you get to the starting point she becomes very sexually aroused. Just got to get to starting point. At one point we only were intimate maybe once every 2 months.
- I have strong libido and sexual intimacy is my number 2 emotional need next to honesty.

- I was love busting in big ways. At some point I became resentful and bitter and started making demands when requests were never heard.
- Wife has never really been demanding.

- I also moved to disrespectful judgment when my demands had no effect.
- Wife has struggled with DJ as well.

- I also moved further to angry outbursts.
- Wife has this, but very infrequently.

- We have had very little of what MB calls UA time for years.

- Wife threatened to walk out back in Jan 2014 and March 2014. The main struggle that she said pushed her here... discussion of OS friendships and boundaries and the ensuing LBs we both did as a part of it. Felt no peace.

So that sort of listed the quick and dirty of struggles.

Now the positives:

- I discovered my LB doing via Love Busters book and according to wife I don't really do it any more or she cannot think of an instance where I have done it. But I know I have done a few DJ's... the ones I believe most don't realize if you don't pay attention. But I do focus a lot so I don't do that so I believe based on her feedback I am doing great here.

- Demands and Anger I have not shown.

- Counselor has asked her about the above and she said that I was doing great and she feels much safer in talking with me and more willing to talk about requests.

- Her walls are coming down.
- She is more willing.
- We are having sexual intimacy about once a week and a half to two weeks.
- She has ready the IB chapter of Love Busters and is working on it even though she struggles.
- She is showing a little more affection. Although it does seem fake at times.
- I continue to try and be in Plan A mode... although I slip out of it and go into auto-pilot some and have to intentionally be back in Plan A and not let struggles or frustration pull me out.
- We are now going through Emotional Needs questionnaire with counselor.
- We are having dates, but only about once every 2 weeks. UA is still WAY TOO LOW for me. Fluctuates between 4 and 10... if we have date not. I can't force her so I take what I can get and what she feels is "realistic"

Do I feel safe in my marriage yet? Not really?
Do I feel she still could just say... eh... don't want to be married? Sometimes. But the feeling is less and less as I see her continue forward with me and show some care.
Do I feel like calling it quits at times? Sure... when I am very frustrated (internally)... but I have to keep pushing forward.

So overall things are much better, but we have a long way to go... but we have had some things dealing with IB that I want to get some feedback on so I will post that in another post later with more time.

As well as some things about OS friends.

Anyway... that sort of catches things up.

I am new here and have not done the program yet. I am just starting it and hoping my DH will participate. So consider that I'm not an MB expert when I give my opinion/advice. But I have read much of this thread with great interest, And I was thinking:

1) You said you work right across the street from your wife
2) She says the 15 hours of UA is unrealistic

Is there any reason you cannot have a standing lunch date, every day, that you lunch together. It sounds like you've started doing that, so that sounds great. Assuming your jobs allow it, I would make it a given that every day you lunch together unless work won't allow it.

BTW, unless your wife is a 75 year old truck stop waitress, I think calling men other than her husband darling and babe is really ...off. I can see her feeling awkward about refusing to lunch with OS if it's a mixed group, or if she's in he company lunch room and they walk in, but to call men babe and darling - no wonder you are on high alert. Taking consultants to lunch one time to thank them? Maybe, but it's not necessary. I am a consultant who has traveled a lot over the last 15 years and I have NEVER and I mean NEVER had a MALE client invite me to lunch with just him. I have male clients invite me to lunch or dinner and they bring their wife or female coworkers. Oh wait, I just remembered on who did when I was young and I figured it was just business but I realized later he was interested in me.

Again, I'm no MB expert, I just say this to you to validate the fact that you are not being unreasonable. I think she's messing with your head a little because she wants to do what she wants to do.


I call BS. Again - you don't have to be an MB expert to know it's "wrong" to "reach out" to "say hi" to an OS when your husband is already sensitive and your marriage is on the rocks. I think she is playing innocent. I'm sure she has her own reasons for being upset and to her that justifies her choice. Why is she wondering "how he is doing?" in the first place? That in a vacuum, might not be alarming, but knowing you've openly discussed boundaries and contact with the opposite sex, it's not possible she didn't know, when she sent that completely unnecessary email, that it would concern/bother you if you knew about it.

Sorry - no advice here other than keep up what you're doing - it sounds like you're working hard and making progress, but I just wanted to weigh in as a woman and say that's nonsense.

We are having lunch about twice a week. We were taking 15 minute walks about 3 to 4 times a week before whether turned cold. This was helping in connecting throughout day. We do chat more during day via Google Chat and more calls during day which again help.

I asked her to lunch today and she said since she was off the last two days and was late this morning she felt all she could do today was run through a drive through and go right back to work. The first thought that ran through my mind... are you going back to the lunch room where sometimes she may sit with another OS coworker or back to her room. I want to ask to see if she is putting things in place to strengthen boundaries, but I did not as I don't trust it would sound right or not sound controlling or something.

Also... she made reference one day about feeling like she couldn't even go into the lunch room for "fear" of talking to another OS. She said it was causing her to feel ill. Back when this was said during counseling I clarified I never had a problem with her being cordial and speaking to OS workers. What I had a problem with was going to lunch room and hanging with the same guy and building a friendship over time... and how she spoke with guys at time (darling and so on).

Here is an example of why I have concern about the small lunch room environment... This has recently happened in my office... a married woman you rarely see speaking to other people (very shy) sitting in the lunch room eating each day. I noticed a month or so ago a married guy started eating lunch in there more regularly and as time passed he sits across from her every day and you can see the progression of friendship. I see red flags starting to go up. This is what I don't want happening in my marriage. And because my wife doesn't see the danger or issue she is more likely to just do it.

I have eaten in the lunch room before as well, but since it is almost always just women all sitting around the same 2 tables I decided not to eat there... and definitely not regularly if I did at all. I know all the women... they all like me and consider me a great guy... but I don't give the opportunity for anything to grow into a risky area.

When she uses those words (Darling or whatever) I honestly don't believe she means anything by it. It is a habit she formed when she was younger and while working in the hospital as she called all patients by these pet names. Now she is in a different setting where she knows all the names and not a random patient. It makes me uncomfortable as when she calls me darling it doesn't have any meaning of affection to me. It's just what she says. I have requested she stop and she says she is working on it. She still says it to me and it sadly makes me uncomfortable... it has sort of become a negative connotation to me since it is something I requested she stop saying to men and she for a while said she wouldn't. She does say this to women as well so again I don't think she means anything by it. I just don't feel comfortable and have requested she call (at least the men) by their names.

In regards to coed luncheons... my office has this maybe 4 times a year. Thanksgiving lunch, maybe a big project finished up, someone retired. Whatever it is... it is usually a big group and I haven't built any close friendships with any of the women. I have no problem with these at all. As long as we communicate and let each other know what is going on in our lives. I always communicate these sort of lunches.

But what I request her not to do is have a small group just going to lunch to go to lunch recreationally allowing opportunity for solidifying OS friendships. I have watched this happen a number of times and seen marriages fall due to relationships that started innocently in coed groups. Heck it happened in our church as well under the guise of music ministry get together for coffee every night after practice. Married wives and husbands would be out with other married wives or husbands and single folks, BUT without their own spouse. Maybe a few married couples together, but mostly individuals. I have just seen it happen and I desire to guard against it with good boundaries.

"messing with your head" as in an intentional I want to hurt you doesn't really fit my wife... BUT... her thinking "I am not doing anything wrong so I am going to do it so the problem is with my husband" is something she has said in the past (before things started improving). Our nature is to want our way... the question is are we willing to give up our INDIVIDUAL way and create an OUR way... which is what I desire.

I try to avoid the words "right" and "wrong" as they come out judgmental. Yes I feel if your spouse clearly has let you know of something that bothers or hurts you and you still do it then yea... I see it as "wrong", but I no longer say that. I just make a request and pray she hears it one day.

I did ask why she reached out back earlier this year and she said a group of her coworkers were in a meeting and someone started reminiscing about the past project this consultant was involved in and she said this caused her to think about him (nothing more than a friend to her) and reached out to see how he was doing and she shared about some books she was reading. She said in the counseling meeting she didn't think she was doing anything wrong. Actually thinking about it raises my blood pressure a little as it was hurtful to me... but she admitted she violated our agreement, apologized and said she would reconfirm and stop.

What I struggle with is my wife is a natural outgoing extrovert that just talks to everyone (male or female) as if she already knows them. I have had about 5 men I know tell me that if they had not know she was married to me and didn't know me they would have felt she was either interested in them or they would have at least felt like they could pursue her as there didn't seem to be anything that would say not to (other than a ring on the finger which doesn't stop many men).

Anyway... I fell in love with the extrovert part of her as I was slightly introverted and it made it easier to converse. I had never met anyone like her... ever. The first time I met her though she asked me out to grab some food as she was hungry after choir practice. I found out later she was engaged and fiance was in college out of state. She was 21 and I assumed she was just one of those folks that was friendly. He a few weeks later slept with another women and that ended that relationship. But to be honest the friendship we were building before that happened was wrong in my eyes and if I had been honest with myself I should have ended it as soon as I heard she was engaged.

Anyway... the point is... with her personality... I don't want her personality to change... I want certain behaviors and actions to be changed and boundaries to be put in place. I think at times she equates behaviors and actions as "just who I am".

Things are improving slowly. I need to get my thoughts together on some specific questions so the MB gurus can give some good feedback.

Thanks for your comments and feedback.

I have some questions about independent behavior and POJA. Here is the situation. I'll list questions throughout:

She wanted to redo the pantry, remove all old shelving, fix up walls, paint, put in new shelving. I was on board and was ok with this.

She decided to take 2 days off work to do it.

1) She didn't ask me about taking the days of she just did it. Honestly it didn't bother me, but is this something that MB'ers would discuss before doing?

We discussed paint options as we have always agreed we never wanted to do something in the house where they other didn't like it. So we had a paint color option set.

She went to the paint place and they could not create the paint color. Don't know exact details why, but it doesn't matter. Anyway... she picked another color and painted.

I find out later she picked a different color and painted, but I would have preferred that she call me and we could talk about paint. I felt like she took me out of the picture and acted independently. Was the paint a bad color? No it was ok? All I said is I would prefer if she would have called me as I no longer had a say in the color of the paint. I thought the subject was over, but that night she says...

It bothered her that I wanted her to check with me on the paint. She felt that I should trust her to make the right choice. We had already agree'd on something, but they couldn't do it so instead of stopping everything she felt I should trust her to know what I like and make this decision. It was time sensitive and she had taken time off from work and she was under the gun to get everything done. She then said I need you to trust me and it needs to be ok when I have to do this sort of thing.

My response... I told her that I follow her thinking on this and understand she probably has a good idea of the colors I like or don't like, but to me this isn't a matter of trust, but a matter of being considered in decisions that effect us. I told her that I definitely did not agree with her view on this. I asked her would a phone call been out of the question... I said for example you could have called to say what we wanted was not available and gave some suggestions or ideas over the phone. I could have looked up colors online or to be honest I would have probably just said pick up something in the color range you know we have talked about in the past. I told her I was not disagreeable about the color she chose as it turned out ok and that I was not "mad or angry" or any other LB thing at her. I just want her to consider me and if something we agreed on had to change that we just touch base.

2) So MB'ers did I handle this wrong. Is this something I should not said anything about?

For example... I don't expect calls from my wife about clothes she is buying the kids if she is shopping without me. Meaning we both know we want modest clothes and what that means to us as we have discussed it.

When she takes them shopping or I do I don't expect either of us to call about colors or little details... I don't want either of us to micromanage each other. We already have an agreement. And we don't need to call each other.

BUT for me... if my daughter wanted something that was borderline and I was ok with it... I would discuss it with my wife first and we could always come back and get it. My wife (as done in the past) would just make the decision and tell me I figured I could take it back if you didn't like it or think it was appropriate. This is a real example of what has happened.

3) So in this clothing example what should be done based on MB? The way I handle it or the way my wife has handled it in the past?

Last example... my wife has said she wants to paint all the bathrooms (we have 5) the exact same color. I would like to have some of them painted a little differently. Is this a huge deal to me? No, but it is a difference of opinion. Now based on MB you don't do anything. You don't paint. BUT if her opinion is wanting them all same and mine is I want some of them different. How would you ever get an enthusiastic agreement???

I believe I could easily say it really doesn't matter that much to me... but that isn't the same as enthusiastic is it? And if not how do you POJA that... especially if all the same is what she wants. In my mind we do a couple different with colors we both love. But that is still different than her desire.

I did ask her if I didn't not agree with all being the same color what was her thoughts. She immediately said... well we would paint them different colors. Which I would not want to do if it was her giver being willing to give in. Just trying to work through some examples.

I'll stop here.

Thanks!

I am hoping Melody or Prisca or Marcos or other long time MB's can chime in.

You need to trust that she will start taking your views into account. Would it be ok with her if you chose a color for her bedroom without consulting her? Shouldn't she "trust you" to make a good decision? The truth is that she shouldn't be trusted if she makes decisions without taking your feelings into account. She couldn't possibly know what colors you like without checking with you.

The solution to this issue is to UNDO her decision. I would completely renegotiate the paint color and start from scratch. [unless you really like the color]



In the clothing example, you have come to an agreement. You aren't real concerned and pretty much know each others tastes, so you have an agreement to allow the other to choose the clothes. That same principle applies to nothing else unless it is by mutual agreement.

My H *HAS* picked out a color we did not agree to because they didn't have it at the store. He brought home something I HATED thinking I would like it. We went back to the store and got something I liked. He couldn't take that ugly paint back either so we ended up eating it.


Keep negotiating until you find a solution that makes you both happy. It is not "my way" or "her way" it is a THIRD WAY that makes you both happy. She is not happy with your idea and you are not happy with her idea. So keep brainstorming until you find an outcome that you both love.


Its ok to say it doesn't matter much to you. For example, I am not enthusiastic about my husbands tools, because I DON'T CARE. It makes no difference to me. So, if you don't care and will be fine with her decisions, then that is fine.

And maybe we should flesh this out, because there are decisions that spouses won't be enthusiastic about because they don't care. For example, I am not enthusiastic about John Wayne movies. But do I care at all that my husband watches them in the living room while I am in the study? NO! I don't care one bit.

Maybe Marcos and Prisca can add something about the category of "I DON'T CARE!"

Dr. Harley has said that what you are looking for is "not reluctant."

As an example, I might play a game with our kids that my wife has no interest in, or read a book to them that she has no interest in. She doesn't feel "enthusiasm" for the game or the book, but she's not reluctant about me doing it. She simply doesn't care.

Dr. Harley has talked about having "general agreements" and "specific agreements." For example, some things there is no need to ask every time, because you already know that your spouse will be enthusiastic. Other things, you need to ask each specific time.

I don't usually ask my wife about me bringing home dinner because she is always enthusiastic. But I do ask her about my going out from work to eat lunch, because sometimes she enthusiastic about it and sometimes she is not.

Prisca will frequently buy something and let me know we can take it back if I am not enthusiastic, and I am enthusiastic about that approach. But if you are not, I would tell your wife "I would like to be asked."

Dr. Harley has said that when there is a third party involved asking one of you to do something, the response to give may have to be "I'll get back to you on that." That way you can go find out how your spouse feels privately, and then decline later without explanation. Otherwise you risk saying something like "I'm enthusiastic, but I'll have to check with my husband/wife," and then if your spouse is not enthusiastic they look like the bad guy to the third party. This is particularly a problem when the third party is your children! Also when it's other family members asking - you don't want to set up a situation where they resent your spouse for "always" saying no.

Thanks! I knew there was a better way to define those types of agreements.

Dangerous discussion here.

It does bother her to have to check with you. Like most of us, she would prefer to be independent. Just validate her feelings, and don't debate it with her. If it happens again, complain with a very light touch: "I'd like to be asked."

DO NOT try to educate her about why she should take your feelings into account or why you shouldn't be asked to "just trust her." She will perceive that as disrespectful. Just state your feelings and leave it at that.

Is she involved in learning the program with you? Listening to the radio show together? Does she feel like she is getting a lot out of it? If so she will eventually hear from neutral third parties like Dr. Harley on this subject, and it will give her a chance to think about her position. It is normal for people to feel bothered by a complaint, as is happening to her here. Even Dr. Harley has said he feels bothered when Joyce complains.

If this kind of thing continues to be a problem for you over time, I would definitely try to get her involved in the program somehow. This might make a very good radio show question, especially if she would go on the show with you.

See, all of that probably came across as disrespectful and lecturing and educating to her and made her feel less motivated to do anything Marriage Builders-related. It's best to keep your complaints extremely short and sweet and focused on your feelings. "I'd like to be asked." Now she knows what you like, and she feels freedom to make the marriage building choice of taking your likes into account, or the marriage damaging choice of ignoring your feelings. I am betting that that feeling that freedom is important to her.

One thing I have found is that my wife is a lot less independent-minded when she is in love with me. When she is not in love with me, it is a MAJOR bother for her to feel troubled by my preferences. But when she is in love with me she wants to be integrated.

Questions of this type get asked around here a lot. It's the source of most of the troubles people have trying to follow the program.

The answer is almost always "Keep brainstorming" (guideline 3 from FGSN) and "Keep working to better understand each other's perspective" (guideline 2 from FGSN).

This usually comes up when the assumption is that it has to be one way or the other. When you collect more information about your spouse's perspective, you are better able to come up with out of the box solutions. What you want to find out is, given your spouse's proposed solution, what is it about that solution that he or she likes? If you know that, sometimes you can come up with some additional suggestions that he or she will also like.

For example, what is it about one color for all the rooms that she likes? Is it because it makes the job simpler? Maybe you can come up with another way that makes it simple enough for her to feel enthusiastic.

Don't forget to be very familiar with the FGSN:

Four Guidelines for Successful Negotiation

I agree, but I shouldn't say all that to her right? I guess I all I can say is either:

"If we agree on something and it cannot be accommodated I would like us to discuss it again so we can come to a new agreement."

I thought about tacking on the end of that... "How do you feel about that?", but she already stated she felt she didn't need to.

OR

"I would like to be asked in the future if we run into this type of situation again."

My guess is the first one is better.

If I didn't like it at all I would do that. She made mention that if I didn't like it we could change it. I prefer to avoid having to make changes by communicating so I don't have to apologize for not considering her... she tends to be more of do it and seek forgiveness later as there isn't anything "wrong" with her deciding for me. Anyway... I was fine with the color in the end.

I just want to avoid all of the taking back and wasting of time if possible. So I think my request is anytime we are not sure about agreement we should touch base with each other.

What has frustrated me in the past is my wife allowed daughter to get something she knew I might not be ok with... but she allowed daughter to get it. However I am setup to be the bad guy when mom says if Daddy isn't ok with this we will need to take it back. This happens a lot... not just clothes, but with a lot of things with kids. That will be a whole other topic.

Point is I want to avoid putting either one of us in the bad light with one of our kids. I desire decisions effecting kids to be our decisions and I do everything I can to never put mom in a situation where kids could perceive her not letting them have what they want, but daddy would allow it. I see it as needing to be OUR decision whenever we can.

Just seems difficult when there looks to be only 3 options. Her way, my way, or no way. Of course I get the no way is an alternative neither would want so we try to find an our way.

Gotcha

Sometimes my kids tell me they can't find something. I don't allow them to say this. I make them say it over again correctly: "I haven't found it, yet."

There aren't just 3 options.

Thanks for example. I agree we have a number of general agreements. I just would like to touch base when either one of us suspects the other may not like something. If based on our general agreements if she really doesn't think something would be an issue I can always let her know I don't like what it was and take it back... but if it is when she "suspects" I would not like it please touch base. I say this based on examples in the past where she said she thought I might not like it, but figured she could take it back. I would like to avoid all that by simply making a 1 minute phone call if possible.

There are plenty of things that wouldn't matter to me... and plenty of general agreements... but if she suspects it or we don't have an agreement at all then let's get an agreement. At least that is what I would prefer.

This has happened many times and is a point of frustration for me. During counseling and to my wife I have asked that this not be done and we check with one another. Counselor has encouraged her to do the same so we can make some of these types of decisions together and not put the other in a negative light. She continues to do it. Not all the time, still does it.

I have GOT to totally wipe this out. I still find I do this once in a while and don't recognize it right away.

She actually has a slight adverse reaction to hearing about MB. And I am sure it is where early on I was trying to share about it. Although counselor has stated many times the positive practical wisdom of Dr Harley she can get visibly irritated if I mention it. So I am not saying anything at the moment. I am trying to continue building love bank and when she can see the benefit based on my actions maybe she will be responsive.

And I am sure you are absolutely right about how it was perceived as I read through it again. DJ can be so stinking tricky!!!!

I was attempting to acknowledge her feelings... but maybe I should have left it to acknowledging her feelings, but simply requesting to be asked. Maybe this would have been a lot better:

"I understand my request makes you feel like I don't trust you. I understand how you see and feel this. I just would like to be asked if what we agreed on needs to change."

Or maybe I shouldn't even acknowledge her feelings?

The good thing is she was about to fall asleep when she said it to me so she literally started snoring right after my reply... so honestly I don't know what she remembers. It hasn't come up again.

I wish I could just go back now and say something like "I felt like my reply probably came across disrespectful and that was not my intention. I value her feelings, but I do want to be asked in those situations." and leave it at that.

But may be best to leave alone.

You mentioned counseling, and I'd just like to take a sidetrack to point out that most counselors don't know how to restore romantic love, don't believe romantic love lasts, don't believe romantic love can be created. They aren't trying to accomplish the same goal that Marriage Builders does.

Don't mix and match - this is almost always a bad idea!

Romantic Love: Is it a Realistic Goal for Marital Therapy?

Thanks... will revisit this.

I 100% agree. BUT... she has made it clear she wasn't going to see anyone else. We are only going together once every 2 weeks and by our selves once every 2 weeks where it was once ever week for individual and couple. It helps that it is less. I think it relaxes things a bit and allows more time to build love bank and not have what is typically not an enjoyable session. Although they are getting better as well.

I am talking to counselor as much as possible about specific MB practices and they do come up in counseling a little now. We just went through the "Honesty" section of emotional needs last week. If I had my choice I would take Dr Harley or his son in a heartbeat... but can't force wife to see the benefit.

We did have one tough day about 3 or 4 weeks ago and she (looks like out of frustration) said to give her some information about Dr Harley's coaching / counseling. Internally I wanted to jump for joy, but I sensed it was a statement made out of frustration... meaning she wasn't really "wanting" to do it. I was correct that is not what she wants to do... so I am continuing to try and build love bank and let her see the benefits of MB through my actions.

You are right... I cannot educate or teach her anything. Right now all I can do is try to lead by example and pray her heart changes and she is willing to do online seminar with coaching and possibly Harley.

Under those circumstances I still wouldn't go to other counseling.

It doesn't matter what her motivation is - if you have an opportunity like this, take it! The program works even if her motivation is completely not what you want. If she will do the program with you, do it!

The toughest struggle for me at the moment is when your wife says says you are unrealistic or insecure or jealous to a request you make... it seems like it is a way for her to not consider a request.

One of the areas that has made me a little uncomfortable was my wife's interaction with one of our children's coaches. His is a divorced single man. My wife (as a parent of child) would spend a lot of time with him... many times when I was not around and some when I was around. Presumably talking about our child.

She then accepted being treasurer of swim team and had to interact more with him.

Let me be clear... in general asking some questions about your child and doing business in general with OS does not bother me.

But there are specific things that started to be red flags of concern or keep an eye out. Not 1 thing, but multiple things adding up.

1) I found she would go down to an area during swim meet where parents are not allowed, but only the coach is allowed and he would let her stay with him the whole meet. She was the only parent I have ever seen do this. I wasn't there, but she told me.

2) Many times even if I am there she goes to talk with the coach and it would be 10 or 15 minutes and I can't figure out why she needs to spend that much time with him while he is actually coaching. Presumably she is talking about daughter, but she tells me personal things about him (later) that tells me it isn't just about daughter.

3) There are some meets that I was unable to go, because of other child obligations so my wife goes and a group goes out to eat for lunch or dinner after meet and take kids. The 2 times my wife couldn't go the coach would ask my child where her mom was at. He didn't asked me he would go to my child. There were several other kids there where only the father could make it and the coach did not ask where that mom was.

4) Another time when we both went to the dinner my wife had to leave dinner at the end and take one of the children back to hotel (overnight event). The coach then asked my daughter where her mom was going. I am a very aware person and I watched how he interacted with other moms and anytime other moms left early (some did) he did not ask about them.

5) I also notice how he acts a little different around my wife than he does others. He sort of seems like he is a bit happier around her.

6) What the coach does say to me when I have to go to practice without her and there is paper work he needs to give her since she is treasurer... is he will say please give this to your lovely wife. I see him also give things to other husbands and he just says please give this to Sarah or Jane or whatever there name is.

I am a very perceptive person and pick up on things my wife never notices and usually I am on target. When I add up everything in the end I sense he has taken a liking to my wife and I would like my wife to be aware of this and limit her interaction.

There are 3 other men who are regular fathers at these meets and I know each one and none of them give me any reason for concern. I see my wife speak with them at times and how they interact and nothing as of yet gives me any concern with them. However the coach yes.

Do I think my wife is about to have an affair? No.
Do I think he will make some sort of advance on her out of the blue? Likely not.
If he did say or do something inappropriate (sexual or blatant) do I think my wife would stand up and stop it? Yes (as long as the relationship didn't slowly grow over time to a dangerous point).

So what is my point???

I have requested my wife limit her interaction with the coach. I have made this request in the past(many months ago) when I first noticed it and this was one of the areas she got pissed off about and thought I was just jealous and insecure and said it was one of the reasons she was going to walk out. Back then our interactions was much more volatile so we were not in a good place.

We are in what I think is a better place.

After seeing a few more interactions this weekend I made the request again. I said it made me feel a little uncomfortable at times and ask that she limits it to required conversation about swim team or specific issues with child. I didn't have to explain why as we had discussed this in the past and I was avoiding why.

She said she felt she had limited it (honestly no way for me to know as I am not always able to be there and can only go by her word) and she said that she keeps it to just business. Side note: I had actually requested she step down as treasurer a while back as it was taking too much time and she agreed... but... she decided to not step down even after we agreed.

Anyway... she then said that she felt she had been adjusting things, but she didn't see any problem with touching a man in the small of his back when she went up to talk with a man or when she is trying to get their attention or what not. Now I did not say anything about touching men... she brought this up. She knows it makes me uncomfortable. But I guess she felt like she wanted to state she didn't have a problem since this is one of those boundary issues discussed in the past.

I probably didn't respond correctly. I just said that it does make me uncomfortable and I would prefer she not be touching other men in general. She just replied with I don't see any issue with it. I replied that all I can do is request that you don't, let you know it makes me uncomfortable, but you have to decide whether or not you will continue doing it knowing it makes me uncomfortable or not.

I just don't know what else to say without getting disrespectful. It is like we are totally opposite. She is a free spirit and doesn't want boundaries and I (although have a free spirit side of me) I desire good boundaries and protection in marriage.

I am so discouraged.

That is very problematic and she is headed for an affair for sure. Has she ever had an affair before? Do you snoop on her?

Disrespectful judgments, like namecalling like this, are simply a tool to try to pressure someone to give you what you want.


You need to keep the disrespectful judgments and the independent behavior problems on the front burner - each time she engages in independent behavior, complain about it. Tell her it bothers you. Then move on, rather than debating it with her. Meanwhile, keep up the massive love bank deposits (are you following the Policy of Undivided Attention?)

If she is doing a job you don't want her doing, such as this treasurer position, I would bring it up every day. Tell her every day that it hurts you that she does it regardless of your feelings, and say that you want a marriage where both of you consider how the other feels in everything you do. Then don't debate her when she tries to talk about WHY you feel that way and how you shouldn't feel that way. Don't argue with her if she tries to tell you you shouldn't feel that way, or if she threatens to leave you. Just change the subject - the information has been passed to her, and that is all that matters at first.

Down the road if she continues to disregard your feelings, it may eventually become necessary to separate from her. But LONG before it gets to that point, she should be well aware that her behavior is hurting you, because you have been talking to her about it EVERY DAY. And even the process of you talking to her about it should have become routine for her by then, something that doesn't cause her much emotional distress or anxiety, because she is so used to hearing it from you - then she will be capable of calmly considering what you are saying, rather than reflexively trying to beat you with a DJ to make you stop bringing up this uncomfortable subject.

This gets really tricky, but I would be careful to avoid referring to your boundaries as "good" and implying that her lack of boundaries is "bad." Stick to the point that when she talks that long with someone, it hurts you, and when she does this treasurer job, it hurts you.

"It bothers me for you to be treasurer for that organization."
"Oh, that's just silly; nothing's going to happen."
"I know - it just bothers me."

"It bothers me for you to talk with our child's coach without me present."
"Come on, you are being ridiculous and insecure."
"I know - but it just bothers me."

This is very important.

You need to be so close to her that you know all of the details of her interactions - so close that, if she had an affair, it would be happening with your full knowledge.

Just a short while ago she emailed our group of spiritual leaders asking for more prayer and to see if some of them could meet with us. She thought "maybe a group setting with a mixed group might bring some insight".

What I take this as... "let me get my husband in a group and see if I can get some folks to say it is nothing wrong with her actions so husband can't make any more requests about boundaries."

I told her I didn't not mind meeting with our group of leaders, but I have no desire having this group give their opinion on what they think is right or wrong in a marriage on areas of boundaries... an obvious area that will vary. There will be some that will be with me and some with her. It will achieve nothing. My desire is for each of us to show extraordinary care for one another and not do things that we know harms the other.

Her response was... well this conversation causes harm to her.

I had asked her to lunch earlier today... she then said... I love you, but I am going to decline lunch with you. We need time to cool off. Now I have not showed any anger so I am guessing she is ticked off.

I believe she is just hoping one day I will be ok with her having low boundaries (granted she thinks she has strong boundaries). So I don't think it really matters whether something is uncomfortable to me or not.

Oh... last thing. When I had told her it made me uncomfortable and it was up to her to decide how to handle that she said she does care if something bothers me. My question though... if my uncomfortableness does matter and she does care... then why is it an issue????

Feeling defeated and if I think to much on it I feel myself getting angered, but I know that will do nothing good. I just don't get it.

I would suggest that you do whatever it takes to be present at every event where this coach is present - take over the job of bringing the child, so your wife isn't there.

See how much she balks at this - it will be telling.

I wouldn't go to such a meeting. Be a recalcitrant, incorrigible, unreachable guy who can't be reasoned with and just sticks to his "irrational" feeling that he doesn't want his wife doing these things. Don't discuss it with anybody.


"I understand, but what you are doing hurts me, and it will continue to hurt me until it stops."


Nope - you are going to keep this problem on the front burner. You are going to be cheerfully annoying and persistent about it.


Lecture alert, buddy! Don't tell her it's up to her to decide how to handle something. That is true, but quit trying to educate her.

Here is what I would do if I were you:

* snoop like a bloodhound and become so close to her daily activities that you know everything she is saying to the coach and to anyone else
* Go back to her asking about Harley and tell her you think you should do Dr. Harley's online seminar and accountability program together
* QUIT all counseling or any other attempts for people to intervene in your marriage. You WILL get bad results if you throw other ingredients into the recipe.

Tell her you changed your mind and you're not going!

In the earlier part of this thread I shared about her SSL and how she developed 2+ OS friendships and 1 in specific where she built a close friendship and was starting to go to lunch with him 1 on 1. No proof other than close friendship was found (which was bad enough for me). I believe there was an emotional affair (I don't think lust yet), but clearly he was meeting emotional needs of conversation and admiration.

I have snooped and this is how I found out about personal emails (again nothing every beyond a growing friendship and nothing showing sexual or lustful remarks).

Boundaries is an issue in general. She sees it as her personality and I see it as behaviors that can be adjusted.

She is headed right straight for an affair and I would wager she has had a few.

What kind of snooping do you do? I would have spyware on her phone, a GPS and a keylogger on her computer.

Keep reminding me of this!!!!

I 100% believe the OS friendship from over a year ago during the time of SSL was heading there given enough time. I believe at the absolute minimum he was meeting emotional needs of conversation and admiration. So if that is considered an emotional affair then that is what I felt happened. All correspondence found only alluded to a building friendship. Nothing ever sexual in nature or sexual innuendo. But definitely a friend. Nothing overly deep... no complaining about me or anything like that. My earlier posts shared all of the details.

All I know is it tore me up and still hits me every now and then... When I think about it I have to fight the flood of thoughts... did she ever really have anything other than a friendship building (which is bad enough for me).

Had I knew about MB right in the middle of all of that maybe I could have had a PI get involved and done a lot of snooping while all of it was active, but it had all come out and slowly through counseling and the fact the consultant no longer comes back on-site (his home office is 6 states away)... it all died down.
I am still watchful and check things. I don't have a GPS at the moment. My home computers I have tools on, but I don't have access to her company computer. I have requested she pull up her email in the past and she has and I will likely again in near future.

So do I have 100% knowledge of everything going on? No. Do I have an extreme amount of knowledge of what is going on and can account for her time, etc. Yes. Right now it would be very difficult for her to have a sexual affair. Is it possible she could build some close relationship at work? Yes, if she kept it off of phone and computer... but it would be extremely hard outside of work with our kids our schedules and other ways of telling where she is.

I have known my wife for 16+ years and from everything I have learned about her over the years is that she just doesn't see the dangers of OS friendships. Back when she was going out with the 1 OS friend for lunch I had asked if I was going out with OS friend for dinner would it bother her. She early on couldn't answer it... later she said it would probably bother her as she saw dinner was when work was over so I should be coming home to spouse. This made no sense to me... so I could go to lunch with another woman because it was still the work day????

I believe my wife has held these views ever since we dated... she had just agreed before marriage to having solid boundaries (I shared what mine are in earlier posts), BUT she has stated that she thought they were good boundaries, but later in practice she found them difficult and came to not agree with it.

Early on... before I started studying MB I remember asking how many times could she go out to lunch with OS friend until it was probably too much? Or how many times could I go out with OS friend for lunch until she started to have a problem with it. That was a dangerous question since she had no problem with going out with OS friend for lunch... but she never answered it back then.

I unfortunately do not know what her boundaries are. I believe if someone out of the blue makes a sexual advance or sexual talking to her she would put a stop to it... meaning if they cross the line completely. But up to that point... I don't know where the boundaries begin.

We do have an agreement that she will not be going out with other men to lunch and also not coed in general... other then special exceptions (see earlier posts) and as far as I can tell she as followed this... even though she doesn't 100% agree with it. There is also an agreement she would never reachout to the OS friends during SSL again. She failed once back in earlier part of year.

Anyway... in the end... she just doesn't see the problem with OS friendships and always has. Even though she has witnessed 5 marriages fail due to OS friendships leading to affairs.

I know what her boundaries are: she has none. If she has opposite sex friendships like this, she has no boundaries because she does not understand the RISK. She is doing what everyone in an affair DOES. They have opposite sex friendships. There are thousands of such cases over on the SAA forum here. This is HOW affairs start. And it is with a spouse who says "i would never do that."

Most people who have affairs don't go looking for them. IT is like the frog in boiling water, the problem begins when he gets in the water. Your wife is in the water all the time.

Can you get spyware on her phone so you can read her text messages?

Let me put this another way. Your comment is like saying "she is a good drunk driver, but I don't know where the boundaries begin." A married person who HAS OS friendships has no boundaries, period, because that is the most risky behavior of all. Just go ask the 1000's of people over on the SAA forum.

She has work phone that I can't get access to. She has a password and in the past would not give it to me saying it would violate HIPPA... although later she let me into her email when I requested it and found that one personal email after friendship was supposed to end.

But they are letting her switch from blackberry over to a personal phone that I will setup within the month and I'll have that one configured for monitoring.

If you talk to her about how affairs can happen with OS friendships she will agree that it can happen... heck she has witnessed 5 of them. But she never believes it could be her as she thinks she has boundaries and as they say "I would never do that".

I say the same thing as in I would LIKE TO BELIEVE I would never do that, but I know I am capable in the right circumstances.

This came up in counseling once and she said the same thing and after a while the counselor finally said each one of us in the room is capable of it and no one is exempt.

You are preaching to the choir on this... I agree... But I can't make her do anything. I do see changes... I see her making adjustments... she has stopped the lunches... she is going with me to lunch more... things are improving... but no one will probably ever convince her that OS friends are so risky that she should avoid them or keep them to friends that are both our friends and still have boundaries.

But from what I read in MB... she doesn't have to necessarily agree... but come to decide she cares more about her spouses feelings and discomfort and choose to care more for the marriage that about OS friends. Would I rather her 100% agree with my point of view... well of course... but I can live with that maybe she doesn't agree, but because of MB and building romantic love she decides it is not worth it for an unhappy marriage.

Instead of trying to educate her, make the point that you can't live like this. Make it all about your feelings - you can't live with a situation where she does these things. It doesn't matter if it matches up with her own personal opinion of "boundaries" or not. It doesn't matter if she thinks you are rational or not.

These philosophical discussions with her aren't accomplishing anything. What will accomplish something is you knowing everything and then refusing to tolerate a situation where she continues to do things that are offensive to you.

Great, you took her to a counselor to lecture her instead of doing it yourself.

You can keep the problems on the front burner and eventually separate from her if she continues to live in a way that is hurtful to you. And you can monitor her so closely that you are aware of everything she is doing. And you can reveal the extent of her relationships to your children, if any, and to the extended family, and let them all know how much it hurts you.

You need to spend less time talking to her and us about what she believes or what you wish she would believe, and more time DOING something about it.

You need more ACTION and less TALKING.

However days like this where she decides she is going to cancel lunch with me, because of my earlier request about interaction with coach and the discomfort felt since we were not in agreement. And also she bringing up touching other men and not having issue with it and me not feeling comfortable with it. Anyway... today's like today it is very discouraging.

I am FAR from perfect and I am sure somehow I have responded in a way that makes her uncomfortable. Markos gave me a "lecture alert" so I know at least one thing came out wrong.

yes... it is her right to refuse lunch... just disappointing and hurts. I am sure she wants to avoid possible further conversation... and I get that. Our past we could easily be pulled back into it and get no where. So maybe it is best.

Don't say you can't get access to it.

Say that you haven't figured out how to get access to it, and keep trying to gain access.

In the end, if I had a phone or other communications that my wife couldn't gain access to, I know that she would separate from me over this. And ultimately, vice versa.

I would see a doctor and get antidepressants prescribed to help even out your emotions. This is going to take awhile and you are going to need to be able to execute a plan, so you will need to be able to stay rational and non-emotional.

We rarely do talk about it now a days.

I think I am taking action... but I believe one of the largest issues is UA time is still only 5 to 10 hours a week (if we get one date night). If she is unwilling to work with me to have more UA time then all I can do is take what she will give.

So let's look at today... I am obviously upset she has decided to cancel our lunch. She is obviously upset. So it will obviously be awkward the next time we connect.

I am just struggling today specifically... probably because of the conflict... but it sure would be much easier with 2 on board for MB principles.

I may have to do this.

Can you start including herself in her life for an additional 10-20 hours per week? Just go to whatever she is going to. It wouldn't be UA time, but it would be a start, and would also start to help building an integrated lifestyle where she can't carry on an affair without your knowledge.


This is where antidepressants can really help you.

There is no reason for it to be awkward the next time you talk with her - you feel emotional, but you need to keep that under control and continue to be a positive conversation partner for her.


You realize almost none of us on this forum have ever had a situation where both husband and wife were on board, right?

Don't dawdle on it like I did. You can do a lot of damage to your marriage in the interim.

I meant to say can you start including yourself in her life for an additional 10-20 hours per week.

I include myself in everything I can. Our daughter is in swim team and she has practice 3 times a week. Since we have 2 boys I am usually requested to stay home with them as she doesn't want them out late since by the time they get home it is after 8:00PM. OR if they have soccer I have to take them elsewhere. We sometimes alternate me taking daughter and she taking boys.

In all honest I would like to pull them from sports so we have more time with family and in turn free up more time for us. But she is not ok with this.

Other option is... when no soccer we would all go together, the boys could swim in pool for fun while daughter has practice and wife and I could work out together (since we are at gym) or just hang out. Kids (5,7,9yrs). But wife again doesn't want the boys out so she rather us alternate.

Here is our life schedule in general which limits UA:

- Monday: She takes 1 child to daycare and I take other 2 to school and we both go to work. I try to get her to go to lunch or one of us has counseling. Monday night daughter has swim and we usually alternate who takes her. OR if boys are in soccer we have to split up. Later at night I have men's small group.

- Tuesday: Same morning, same lunch option, and then home for family time. After kids are all in bed it is around 8:30PM to 9:00PM. Wife usually starts fading fast at about 9:45PM so if we do get that time together it is poor UA time, but I count it if we can spend it together doing UA things. BUT sometimes kids interrupt by getting up and when the heck will laundry and dishes and cleaning take place.

- Wednesday is exact same as Monday except no men's small group.

- Thursday is exact same as Tuesday.

- Friday is exact same as Tuesday and Thursday.

- Saturday is usually some kids sport in the morning, wife going to massage therapist to work on her wrist issues and joint issues, then it is a grab back of things going on and about once every two weeks a date night running 4 to 6 hours (6 if movie involved).

- Sunday is Church, lunch as family, try to get things done at house and then daughter's swim practice which wife normally takes while I am home with boys. Wife requests not bringing the boys. When she gets home we go to couples small group where one of the couples children watch our kids for small group for free (this was done so we could attend small group).

Now throw in family visits to her parents some weekends (once every couple of months) and with my parents (once every couple of months) along with other things that come up you can see it gets quite spread out.

If my wife was someone that could stay up later without issue... like 10:30PM then I think we could get some more UA time... although in house, but it would be better than nothing. Or if we could find some free baby sitting be able to go out for a couple of hours. But she literally starts to pass out around 9:45PM most nights. We have to start date night early so we get home by 10:00PM at the latest or she is shot.

So I am injecting myself everywhere she allows. Obviously I can't make her do anything and if we disagree trying to discuss it doesn't work as I can't "educate" on POJA. I can try to throw out alternatives... but if she doesn't want all of us coming to swim practice then by me just trying to do it anyway doesn't go over to well... it would really irritate her as I would not be considering her request. Yes it sounds funny to me as all I want is her to consider my request and not take actions that are hurtful about OS relationships.

I know she loves it when we are all together as family and when me and kids are having fun... you know the good father to children... so I do that as much as I can... and though that is one of her needs that is not one of the UA emotional needs.

You are right that family commitment is not one of the four intimate emotional needs, but don't underestimate its importance. It can make some very large love bank deposits for a wife.

Have you checked on the massage therapist appointments?

Yes... I see the check payments and it is the parent of one of the youth we know very well.

It is also important to me so I make sure I do this as much as I can.

So you've put a GPS on her car and verified she actually goes there?

So you've shown up unannounced at the appointments?

I noticed you said "parent" not "mother."

No I don't have a GPS now... when I switch out her work phone to our smartphone I'll have it built in.

Parent is mother.

Not unannounced... but called a couple of times and hear the parents mother (massage therapist) talking.

Is it possible should could have done something... yes... but the likely hood based on our schedules of getting kids places and everything in general it is highly unlikely.

I don't mind showing up unannounced... but based on everything and all pieces of info I have it is highly unlikely anything happening during that time.

Well... I was going to attempt to update how the last individual counseling went, but my wife dropped a bombshell on me.

She said that her 91 year old Meemaw who lives several states away desires to live with us now.

My wife feels it is up to her to take care of Meemaw and has asked me to pray about moving her into our home.

I can't give a reply at all to my wife at moment... I am shocked.

I have no desire for this and believe it will be a detriment to our marriage where I can barely get 5 hours of UA time with my wife as it is.

And with the wife not willing to look at MB... If I say no I am not ok with becoming a caregiver and having her move in is likely not going to go over well. I don't even know how to respond at the moment. This is likely going to be difficult.

Just a quick brainstorm... My suggestion would be to ask Meemaw to contact HER son as they have a spare room in their home (if he or his wife is willing). Maybe suggest she enter an assisted living place in the city her son lives in. I am leery of suggesting move to our city as I feel my wife may feel compelled to become her caregiver since she really wants her to move in anyway. We also have NO financial way to handle this... even if I wanted to.

She does still get around, but that I believe is changing.

I feel guilty for having initial response of no in my head... I may end up looking like the uncaring person to my wife so this could go bad no matter which way it goes.