Thanks for the advice. Would really like to find a list to start a discussion with.

Thanks for the advice. Would really like to find a list to start a discussion with.

To summarize my criterion for off-limits friendships of the opposite sex:

• Any friend of the opposite sex that is not enthusiastically agreed upon by your spouse.
• Any friend of the opposite sex that had been a former lover.
• Any friend of the opposite sex that you know might have what it takes to trigger a feeling of romantic love (or may have already triggered that feeling in the past).
• Any friend of the opposite sex that meets your need for affection (expressions of care and concern), intimate conversation (conversation about personal problems being faced, and topics of personal interest), recreational companionship (spending time together enjoying common recreational activities), honesty and openness (revealing personal feelings, past history, present activities, and plans for the future), physical attractiveness, or admiration (expressions of respect, value, and appreciation). This is especially important when your friend does a better job meeting your needs than your spouse in any of these areas. In that case you should drop everything you're doing to immediately fix the problem.
  But even if your spouse does a better job meeting these needs, a friend can make enough Love Bank deposits by meeting these need for you that you may wake up one morning in love with that person. And if that happens your judgment will be severely damaged.
• Any friend of the opposite sex with whom you have a private, personal, and bilateral relationship. It's private in the sense that conversation is generally one-on-one, and sometimes kept secret because the spouse would be threatened in some way by it if it were done with the spouse present. It's personal in the sense that personal information is revealed, especially problems faced in life, along with a willingness to help if needed. And it's bilateral in the sense that both people share personal information with each other and have proven that they have what it takes to help each other.

[
Hi dingerdad, in the article linked above in BrainHurts' post, Dr. Harley writes that he is "not opposed to all friendships of the opposite sex." He's only "opposed to those that can lead to an affair."

Therefore, he does not endorse opposite sex friendships.

I'm not opposed to all friendships of the opposite sex.

The definition of a "friendship" is:

"a private, personal relationship."

One of the extraordinary precautions I mention when discussing the topic of avoiding affairs is to rule out friends of the opposite sex.

The first place to look for the highest risks for an affair is to consider who is most likely to be an affair partner. It's a friend of the opposite sex. More people have affairs with that person than with anyone else. And the closer the friendship, the more likely the affair. So a reasonable precaution to avoid an affair is to avoid opposite-sex friendships.

But I take it one step further to warn couples that any friendship with someone of the opposite sex should be carefully evaluated because of the risks involved. Even if a couple is in enthusiastic agreement, I recommend that a friendship with someone who was a former lover should be ended. Also, a friendship with someone who you feel might actually make enough deposits to breach the romantic love threshold should be ended. Don't take unnecessary chances.

So I'm not opposed to all friendships of the opposite sex. I'm only opposed to those that can lead to an affair. And those are the ones where the most important emotional needs of affection, intimate conversation, recreational companionship, honesty and openness, and admiration are met.

True, but he doesn't oppose them either:


There is more than one definition of "friendship," and perhaps Dr. Harley is using a different definition.

I like your distinction between friends and acquaintances; that's a good way to describe the difference between off-limit opposite-sex friendships, and the opposite-sex "relationships" Dr. Harley writes about that he and Joyce have many of.

Splitting hairs doesn't really help anyone.

When I found a list, I noticed that Dr. Harley wrote "I am not opposed to all opposite sex friendships," which seems to contradict Melody's first post "Married people should not have opposite sex friendships."

The OP asked for a list of guidelines. When I found a list, I noticed that Dr. Harley wrote "I am not opposed to all opposite sex friendships," which seems to contradict Melody's first post "Married people should not have opposite sex friendships." I don't see that as splitting hairs. That's an apparant contradiction that I wanted to hear Melody's explanation of. Others might see that as a contradiction as well and be curious. I think Melody did a great job of explaning. Thank you Melody.

Yes he is opposed to opposite sex friendships. He and Joyce have friends as couples, but these are not one on one relationships between the opposite sex person.

1.Clich�s - Clich�s are simple conversation starters such as, �Hello, how are you?� When these are handled with ease and grace, safety is generated and people are willing to go to the next level. If they feel judged, criticized or ridiculed they will go no further. People start here to see if it is safe to connect.


2.Facts - Facts can be personal or non-personal facts about the weather, sports, current events; whatever can be addressed in conversation without too much risk. Except in the case of know-it-alls, this is a great level for people to test whether a person is a safe conversationalist.


3.Opinions - The opinion level is the first level of vulnerability, marked by a person�s willingness to risk revealing something about who they are. This is often the level where conversations break down; where disagreements of opinion reveal inflexibility and intolerance. Conversely, if a person is willing to allow others to disagree without rejecting, ridiculing or punishing, the conversation can continue to the next level.


4.Hopes & Dreams - If we navigate safely through the level of opinions, people will often be willing to reveal what truly inspires them. Sharing hopes and dreams identifies what a person wants to become or how they ant to live. Being safe enough to entrust others with your dreams prepares you to connect at an even deeper level.


5.Feelings - When the environment is safe enough to be honest with our feelings, only then are we able to feel truly connected. Inviting someone else into our feelings, however, makes us feel vulnerable, and for most people is a difficult obstacle to overcome, depending on how accepting and validating their past experiences have been while sharing feelings with others.


6.Fears, Failures and Weaknesses - This level is uncomfortable for many of us because in our culture weakness is seen as a fault, and past sharing of one�s fears and failures may have been met with ridicule and rejection rather than acceptance and support. Conversely when openness on this level is met with care and nurturing, real healing and growth can occur.


7.Needs - Sharing our needs in a way that is vulnerable (not demanding) is a sign of maturity, as is the ability to truly listen to one another. Sometimes our conversations lack meaning because we fail to listen or fail to ask the right questions. We fail to listen because we don�t know how to subjugate our own needs in order to meet the needs of others.

1.Clich� - How are you?
- What have you been up to lately?

2.Facts -
Non-personal
- What was the score of the game?
- What is the weather forecast?

Personal

- What did you do today?
- What have you learned recently?
- What have you been reading lately?
- What is your favorite color, food, song etc.?


3.Opinions
-What are your preferences concerning�?
-What are your beliefs about�?
-What do you think about�?

4.Hopes and Dreams
-If you could live any way you liked, how would you like to live?
-If you could live anywhere in the world, where would you like to live?
-What goals do you have for your life?
-What area of study would you like to become an expert in?
-If you could be famous for something, what would you like to be famous for?
-What would you like written on your tombstone? In your obituary?
-Who would you like to help? How would you help them if you could?
-What one thing would make you truly happy?
-Who are the people you�d like to learn from in life?
-What personal qualities do you hope to develop in the future?
-What skills do you hope to develop in your lifetime?
-What do you dream about being the best in the world at doing?
-What are 5 things you dream about having?
-What are 5 things you dream about doing?
-What are 5 things you dream about being?
-Who are 5 people or groups you dream about helping?
-What would you do if you knew you could not fail at it?

5.Feelings
-When in our life have you felt special to others?
-Who in your life made you feel safe, loved, accepted? How did they do that?
-Who in your life made you feel the most rejected, devalued, abandoned, invisible?
-What are you most passionate about?
-What do you feel about:
-Your relationship to God?
-Your most significant friendship?
-Your relationship to your parents?
-Your relationship to co-workers?
-Your reputation in the community?

-How secure do you feel in your life right now? (Why, or Why not?)
-How significant do you feel in your ability to contribute to others, to your community, to the world? (In what way? Why, or Why not?)
-Do you feel like you are becoming the person you want to be?
-Do you feel like you belong?
-Do you feel competent in your ability to build something of value?
-What are the biggest hurts have you experienced in the past?


6.Fears, Failures, Weaknesses
-What makes you feel like you don�t measure up?
-What makes you feel like you are unlovable?
-What do you think would make others reject you?
-What are some lies you�ve been told in the past?
-What do you feel you must hide from others out of fear that they would reject you?
-What makes you feel ignored?
-What makes you feel rejected?
-What makes you feel humiliated?
-What makes you feel incompetent?
-What makes you feel like a failure?
-What makes you feel inadequate?
-What is your biggest fear in life?

7.Needs
Spirit � what do you need to thrive spiritually?
� what do you need to thrive in your relationships?
Mind � what do you need to learn and grow in to thrive mentally?
Strength � what do you need thrive physically?
When have you experienced great joy?
Describe what you think constitutes true happiness?
How do you help others experience joy?
What do you need in order to be secure?
What do you need in order to be safe?
What do you need in order to be significant?
What do you need in order to be competent?
What do you need in order to be powerful?
What do you need in order to belong?
What do you need to be clear about?
What do you need in order to build something of lasting value?
What do you need to know God better?
What do you need to feel special to others?
What do you need in order to feel like you are understood?
What do you need in order to do something great?
What do you need in order to achieve something that will last?
What recognition do you need?

It is easy to look at the list of dangers that Dr. Harley wrote and say to yourself "But that does not apply to me! I love my spouse! The Other Person is in love with their spouse!" Or any number of rationalizations for why you are exempt from that list. Opposite sex friendships are like flypaper.
My ex had a friendship with a woman that I supported for a long time. It became entrenched. The woman's husband supported it too. When the red flags started waving, I let my ex talk me out of my feelings. We're divorced. Opposite sex friendships are poison to your marriage.

I'm reminded of a post by HoldHerHand in another thread. That post is here: Stages of Intimate Conversation

I thought it was a really good description of how things can progress with an opposite sex friend through meeting the need for intimate conversation. After all, that's how we make friends in the first place, by having conversations with them.

Here are what I thought were the relevant parts of that post. Everything below was posted by HoldHerHand in the other thread but I pasted it here for easier reading. Hope that's OK!:


... I did some digging about conversation and intimacy. What I found helped in 2 ways; it reduced stress as to how "deep" intimate conversation is or is not, and it allowed us to know how and where to develop boundaries in conversations with people outside the marriage.

Just going to straight quote here instead of citing;

So what if the opposite friendship existed for yrs before your relationship with you current partner? Should you just cut off the friendship? Doesn't to make sense to me.

So what if the opposite friendship existed for yrs before your relationship with you current partner? Should you just cut off the friendship? Doesn't to make sense to me.

So what if the opposite friendship existed for yrs before your relationship with you current partner? Should you just cut off the friendship? Doesn't to make sense to me.

So what if the opposite friendship existed for yrs before your relationship with you current partner? Should you just cut off the friendship? Doesn't to make sense to me.

So what if the opposite friendship existed for yrs before your relationship with you current partner? Should you just cut off the friendship? Doesn't to make sense to me.

I do think the word 'friend' can be confusing to some as to what level of friendship is being discussed. It's a badly misused word sometimes.

I went from thinking that the rule for no opposite sex friendships was crazy to thinking I couldn't exchange the odd pleasant and casual word with a male coworker.

I know that sounds ridiculous - but I'd always thought OS friendships were fine until I got burned. When I took on the 'crazy' rule - I went too far.

Another poster was similarly OTT and it was Melody Lane correcting her - saying of course you could be pleasantly friendly while keeping boundaries, before I got it. Then Dr H's revised article cleared up a lot more for me. I was stunned to read they had kept hold of OS childhood friends but it was all in the way they did it.

As a couple they both look out for their friends and neighbours of both genders, but they do it appropriately and with boundaries.

I do think the priority is caution and warning people off opposite sex friendships. It's better to be safe than sorry.

I just think once that's achieved that there's room to explain too that it won't make you any less pleasant or sociable in surface interactions. That if you do want the best for OS childhood friends and men in your circle - it's being a friend to NOT get too close once you're married.

When I first was hurt by an opposite sex friend to the marriage I could easily have voted for a very gender segregated world, as other countries do. That's actually what I thought the old OS article was advocating and I don't think that misconception helps MB.

Ours isn't a culture where men and women are segregated so an understanding of 'How will that work?' is quite helpful, I think.

I would like to ask Indiegirl some follow up questions to her post, but should I ask this in a different thread as I am not the OP or leave it hear as it is all related to Boundaries of Opposite sex relationships.

A lot of people agree with you.

But most people don't have happy marriages.

Of the people that do have happy marriages, this is one of the things that they do.

I would like to ask Indiegirl some follow up questions to her post, but should I ask this in a different thread as I am not the OP or leave it hear as it is all related to Boundaries of Opposite sex relationships.

If it's to do with the OP's question here, otherwise start another thread. All I was saying here is that when the concepts are very new, almost revolutionary, it can be hard to understand them just off one article. He makes it really easy for us to follow complex psychology - but you have to put some time into understanding the program too.

I think what has changed is the way society views it. Now OS friendships are the norm, there are even terms used to fondly discuss these relationships like 'work wife'. Married people with boundaries are the ones seen with the issues, not the other way around. Sad.

I think what is not new or revolutionary is the *instinct* to not want to share your spouse in any kind of intimate way with someone of the OS.

I think what has changed is the way society views it. Now OS friendships are the norm, there are even terms used to fondly discuss these relationships like 'work wife'. Married people with boundaries are the ones seen with the issues, not the other way around. Sad.

OMG so true, I can't stand it and my children do think I am crazy