Hello,
My wife and I waited to have sex until our wedding night. We had both talked about it a lot and we were both very excited for it. We both thought we would love it.
As it turned out, it was uncomfortable for her and after two months became painful. She neglected to tell me this until it had been three months. Since she told me I have gone very slow, halfway, in one position.
It has now been 14 months and absolutely nothing has changed except we have sex less frequently. It is still very slow, still halfway, still one position and only for about 60 seconds before I have to pull out because it's uncomfortable. I also cannot hit on her most of the time because she feels like it might go towards sex and she starts to play the what if game (what if I am not ready, what if I displease him, etc). We have had about 20 fights because of this. She is afraid of passionate sex. I can't talk about what I want to be different. She wants to be the perfect wife and if I tell her what she is doing is not completely satisfying me it obliterates her desire to engage in anything sexual at all.
We have seen three therapists. The one we saw last week has seen us several times and ended up telling my wife that she is controlling and her lack of allowing me to communicate is also wearing down our intimacy. My wife didn't take that well although I believe it's true. She doesn't like it when she is taking a shower and I come in the restroom. When we were first married she thought I was controlling because I wouldn't stay in our bedroom when she needed her hour of alone time (which was the only time we had together).
I am so desperate to fix this. I am a very loving and caring husband. I have tried to help her and to understand her and I've only brought up wanting to change sex twice and both times ended horribly. It is creating tons of unfulfilled bitterness and resentment. I've tried waiting the issue out. I've tried to take care of her needs without her taking care of mine to prove I love her and have absolutely no desire to make her feel uncomfortable or to make her feel any pain during sex. I've tried refusing her making me orgasm to prove that I am patient and don't want pleasure unless she can have it too. I've tried taking her up on every chance she gave me to orgasm to lessen the burden she feels when I don't. I don't know what to do. Sex really sucks and it is driving us apart. Please help me. Maybe I need a reality check? Maybe I need tips on making it good? I don't know. She has given up on sex being intense and intimate. She only wants safe, slow sex and only a little bit of it. I am out of ideas on how to fix this. Please, if you are reputable and have a good sex life and especially if you have overcome these kinds of issues help us.
Marmit,
You may want to send the Harleys an email, perhaps they will have you on their radio show, this is very serious.
BrainHurts, do you have links to the radio show on this topic.
God Bless
Gamma
I should also note that I am very attentive to her needs. I help out around the house, I always ask her how her day was and we talk a lot. I give her a lot of her love language. I'm not saying that to brag or to prove I deserve good sex, I'm only saying it because I would assume this was the problem if someone asked me this question.
I also plan a lot of dates (1-2 times a week). If they are too romantic she gets worried sex will come after it. I take a lot of time in foreplay (long 20-25 minute massages) before I touch any sexual area of her. I have tried every single thing I can think of.
The fights I mentioned have been fights for her but conversations for me. I will try to talk with her and I will have a very relaxed tone and amicable words and actions but she will think that I am yelling at her and that I hate her and feel a lot of anger towards her. Our therapist witnessed this and said that she didn't hear what my wife heard and that she thought I had her best interests at heart but my wife just pointed to me and said that I was yelling at her. Every time we talk about sex it gets worse. Even if I only whisper while holding her and listen a lot and only talk a little.
Also, if you have any sort of advice like, "If she isn't going to fulfill your needs you should split," then take your advice and your guilt elsewhere. I am never going to quit on my wife.
"Also, if you have any sort of advice like, "If she isn't going to fulfill your needs you should split," then take your advice and your guilt elsewhere. I am never going to quit on my wife."
I wasn't going to give you any such advice, but when I saw this rude comment, I decided to pass on making any suggestions. If you want to solicit opinions from volunteers, you might want to be a little more gracious. No one here is obliged to help you, we are all volunteers.
That was not a rude comment. And I don't want advice from anyone who would jump to divorce or unfaithfulness. I have no graciousness for anyone who would speak those words of death into my marriage.
That was not a rude comment. And I don't want advice from anyone who would jump to divorce or unfaithfulness. I have no graciousness for anyone who would speak those words of death into my marriage.
You are very rude and I suspect you behave this way in your marriage. If you want help here, I would lose the snotty, entitled attitude. It won't help you here.
That was not a rude comment. And I don't want advice from anyone who would jump to divorce or unfaithfulness. I have no graciousness for anyone who would speak those words of death into my marriage.
You are very rude and I suspect you behave this way in your marriage. If you want help here, I would lose the snotty, entitled attitude. It won't help you here.
I am very careful in selecting my friends and in selecting what influences me. I wouldn't surround myself with friends who talked poorly about my wife and influenced me to leave my marriage. I wouldn't surround myself with people online who would either. Nothing about defending my marriage or my wife is entitled, snobby, or rude. You on the other hand have been pretty volatile. I'm sorry for whatever you have gone through.
That was not a rude comment. And I don't want advice from anyone who would jump to divorce or unfaithfulness. I have no graciousness for anyone who would speak those words of death into my marriage.
Your very antagonistic, pre-assuming comments seem a little off to me.
Do you take hard positions (and presumptions) like this in other areas and force them on your wife?
The reason I ask is that women have a very hard time having sex with husbands who speak to them in that manner.
Why don't you do a quick google search for problems in sex and tells what you read? Over half the commenters usually prescribe such advice.
I have been vulnerable with you and in return you have attacked me. Clearly posting here was a mistake.
We are very careful about whom we choose to help on this forum. Your attitude is not going to get you much help here. And I suspect is at the root of your problem with your wife. Your wife does not like the way you approach her and I can see why. Your approach here is very offensive and I understand why she feels the way she does.
Well, to troubleshoot it's best to start with what might be the obvious and work your way back from there.
Sometimes your perspective of how you are speaking to her might totally differ from her perspective of how you are speaking.
A great example is this exchange.
I am sure you did not intend to be rude, but you were.
I was asking a fair, straight question but you took it to be rude.
I have been vulnerable with you and in return you have attacked me. Clearly posting here was a mistake.
Challenging your rude, obnoxious approach is not an "attack." It is something you need to change if you want help and if you want to resolve your marriage problems.
She doesn't like it when she is taking a shower and I come in the restroom.
This is a canary in the coal mine that she does not feel safe in an intimate relationship with you.
You have indicated she feels attacked (in your opinion unjustly).
You cannot convince her to feel differently - feelings are the way they are. It is easier for you to ask her how can you communicate so she does not feel attacked than for her to not feel attacked with the way you currently communicate.
"The fights I mentioned have been fights for her but conversations for me. I will try to talk with her and I will have a very relaxed tone and amicable words and actions but she will think that I am yelling at her and that I hate her and feel a lot of anger towards her. Our therapist witnessed this and said that she didn't hear what my wife heard and that she thought I had her best interests at heart but my wife just pointed to me and said that I was yelling at her. Every time we talk about sex it gets worse. Even if I only whisper while holding her and listen a lot and only talk a little."
You are having the same problem here with us. Your wife tries to tell you she doesn't like your approach and you deny her reaction, saying you didn't mean it that way.
When someone tells you your approach is offensive, you can either choose to change it or you can choose to offend. You have chosen to offend here and it sounds like you do the same in your marriage. When you fight with your wife and offend her it is only natural she would not enjoy sex with you.
"The fights I mentioned have been fights for her but conversations for me"
CLUEBAT!
I also cannot hit on her most of the time because she feels like it might go towards sex and she starts to play the what if game (what if I am not ready, what if I displease him, etc). We have had about 20 fights because of this. She is afraid of passionate sex. I can't talk about what I want to be different. She wants to be the perfect wife and if I tell her what she is doing is not completely satisfying me it obliterates her desire to engage in anything sexual at all.
As a female, I can tell you it would be really, REALLY, R.E.A.L.L.Y hard to feel emotionally vulnerable (and physically intimate)again with your husband when your limitations in doing so has escalated into 20 fights.
There is a significant amount of damage here that needs to be recovered from.
You two have managed to make it worse than it already was. You are the ones being rude and making pre-found assumptions. Instead of helping anything you have called me rude, a entitled, snobby, insinuated that you know how I talk to my wife better than myself and a therapist, wrote down a cluebat emoticon indicating that I am an idiot, and have told me that you will not help me because I told you not to tell me to leave my wife.
I have not called you any names, not told you anything mean, yet you have attacked me and my marriage. You are incredibly out of line. Clearly my marriage will not be helped by either of you.
See if anything in this article makes sense to your situation:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5047_qa.htmlNote this quote:
"He may not be abusive every time he makes love, and he may be very sensitive on almost every occasion. But whether his abuse is frequent or infrequent, his wife is likely to associate the unpleasantness of his abuse with the sex act itself. After a while, she finds the act extremely unpleasant, and tries to avoid it if she can. "
It is very possible that your wife has begun to associate the unpleasantness of the 20 fights plus the other conversations she perceived as attacks (and given your bellicosity here, perhaps she has more grounds than you give her credit for) with a fear of having the sex act itself with you.
Anger outbursts are defined as words that hurt another person - not necessarily shouted words. They can be whispered words.
If you had 20 fights over sex in your short marriage, then by your own description you have hurt her, with your anger over sex, far too often.
Have you read Dr. Harley's description of LoveBusters?
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3400_lovebust.html
Marmit, you sound very much like me when I first came to Marriage Builders. Right down to taking offense at anyone suggesting that I leave my wife, and swearing that I would never do such a thing.
Good - because the solution is not for you to leave your wife, or threaten to leave her.
I'm in a happy marriage today with my needs very well met because I used this program to learn how to understand my wife's feelings and modify my behavior so that I would quit making her feel bad.
It is nearly impossible for people to change their feelings - but behavior modification is a very understandable scientific process. You can use this program to learn to change your behavior, and your wife's feelings toward you will follow that change after some time.
In particular, you have GOT to stop fighting with your wife. No matter what problems you have in marriage, fighting about the problems will make things WORSE.
Here is what I suggest as a first step for you:
Email Dr. Harley and his wife Joyce at their radio program at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com . Describe your problem and go on the radio show and talk to them. Be sure and mention that you have been fighting with your wife about this. Put your mailing address in your email, because Dr. Harley and Joyce will send you a free book that will probably be very helpful.
For step two:
Download the Marriage Builders Radio app and begin listening to the radio show every day.
For step three:
Start documenting every fight you have with your wife here on this forum. Listen very carefully to the feedback that is offered, and change how you are approaching your wife.
No woman wants to have sex with a man who fights with her.
You're assuming I have anger over sex. You're assuming I talked to her harshly in a soft voice. I didn't say that. You weren't there. I haven't responded to the rudeness you two have presented with rudeness. Why would you feel ok to assume that was the case? You two are full of hurt. Hurt people hurt people. Just stop trying to hurt me. Go post on someone else's topic. Maybe I can find someone with a good relationship who will help if the two of you stop derailing this post.
Thank you very much for posting this! I really appreciate it! I didn't realize I could email them directly
Our therapist witnessed this and said that she didn't hear what my wife heard and that she thought I had her best interests at heart but my wife just pointed to me and said that I was yelling at her.
Wow, you need to find better therapists who will validate your wife. How can you ever learn to empathize with your wife's point of view when you've got people telling you she's wrong?
I'm sure you do have your wife's best interests at heart, but if she says you are yelling at her this needs to be taken seriously and addressed rather than dismissed, and you need to change something about how you are talking to your wife.
I can't think of a single time Dr. Harley has ever dismissed my wife's complaints or validated me in dismissing them, and I've been at this a few years.
Your wife will never want to have sex with you if you don't take her complaints seriously or if you take her to therapists who try to decide which of you is "right" and which of you is "wrong." I'm assuming you don't want to be right, single, and sexless, so get somebody in your wife's corner who can be an advocate for her to you so she can get through to you about whatever changes she needs you to make.
No yelling.
No fighting.
Fighting is like nuclear war in marriage - the only way to win is not to play.
Don't do or say anything your wife things is demanding, disrespectful, or angry.
We are not assuming anything other than what we have seen here and what you have told us. Your wife has told you she doesn't like the way you speak to her and instead of changing your approach, you dismissed her complaint. You are doing the same thing with us.
Start listening and stop brawling!
You're assuming I have anger over sex.
No, I am not assuming this at all - you said so yourself:
I also cannot hit on her most of the time because she feels like it might go towards sex and she starts to play the what if game (what if I am not ready, what if I displease him, etc). We have had about 20 fights because of this.
Thank you very much for posting this! I really appreciate it! I didn't realize I could email them directly
Tell them markos sent you.
Why don't you do a quick google search for problems in sex and tells what you read? Over half the commenters usually prescribe such advice.
Yep - most people have only one type of marital advice to offer: use a club on your spouse. Either leave them or threaten to leave them. Or ignore them. Or (God forbid) have an affair. Or fight with them. Or try to straighten them out.
Using any of these clubs on your wife will make your problem worse.
It is nearly impossible for people to change their feelings - but behavior modification is a very understandable scientific process. You can use this program to learn to change your behavior, and your wife's feelings toward you will follow that change aftIn particular, you have GOT to stop fighting with your wife. No matter what problems you have in marriage, fighting about the problems will make things WORSE.
Markos,
When we do fight it is bizarre. I literally do not change my tone, I don't say words that are harsh, I don't make it a me vs you. I'm not mad at her because she is an amazing wife! She is trying so hard to be the best wife that ever existed for me. The problem is if we talk about sex at all then things get bad really fast. Even though I try to tell her everything that I really like about it, she only hears that I hate it even though I don't think that and don't say that. I do want it to change though. That has happened twice.
The other fights were caused because of the issues with sex. She would get very cold and reject any of my advances and I would feel pretty alone and unloved as a result. When we would end up talking about it she would feel like I felt a bunch of things I didn't feel.
Do you have any recommendations for this from what you've read?
You're assuming I talked to her harshly in a soft voice.
Whatever you are saying in a soft voice, she does not like. Take this indication very seriously:
She doesn't like it when she is taking a shower and I come in the restroom.
This indicates her problem is that she doesn't feel safe to have emotional vulnerability to you.
Marmit, you sound very much like me when I first came to Marriage Builders. Right down to taking offense at anyone suggesting that I leave my wife, and swearing that I would never do such a thing.
Good - because the solution is not for you to leave your wife, or threaten to leave her.
I'm in a happy marriage today with my needs very well met because I used this program to learn how to understand my wife's feelings and modify my behavior so that I would quit making her feel bad.
It is nearly impossible for people to change their feelings - but behavior modification is a very understandable scientific process. You can use this program to learn to change your behavior, and your wife's feelings toward you will follow that change after some time.
In particular, you have GOT to stop fighting with your wife. No matter what problems you have in marriage, fighting about the problems will make things WORSE.
Here is what I suggest as a first step for you:
Email Dr. Harley and his wife Joyce at their radio program at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com . Describe your problem and go on the radio show and talk to them. Be sure and mention that you have been fighting with your wife about this. Put your mailing address in your email, because Dr. Harley and Joyce will send you a free book that will probably be very helpful.
For step two:
Download the Marriage Builders Radio app and begin listening to the radio show every day.
For step three:
Start documenting every fight you have with your wife here on this forum. Listen very carefully to the feedback that is offered, and change how you are approaching your wife.
No woman wants to have sex with a man who fights with her.
For step four I recommend:
Read through these Q&A columns by Dr. Harley:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5505_qa.htmlAll of them! (Click the links down the left hand side: controlling husband; control, dependency, and identity; conflicts of faith; angry outbursts; domestic violence.) Read all of the Q&A columns in that section, even the ones that don't apply to you, because Dr. Harley usually has valuable tidbits of information in all of his articles.
It is nearly impossible for people to change their feelings - but behavior modification is a very understandable scientific process. You can use this program to learn to change your behavior, and your wife's feelings toward you will follow that change aftIn particular, you have GOT to stop fighting with your wife. No matter what problems you have in marriage, fighting about the problems will make things WORSE.
Markos,
When we do fight it is bizarre. I literally do not change my tone, I don't say words that are harsh, I don't make it a me vs you. I'm not mad at her because she is an amazing wife! She is trying so hard to be the best wife that ever existed for me. The problem is if we talk about sex at all then things get bad really fast. Even though I try to tell her everything that I really like about it, she only hears that I hate it even though I don't think that and don't say that. I do want it to change though. That has happened twice.
The other fights were caused because of the issues with sex. She would get very cold and reject any of my advances and I would feel pretty alone and unloved as a result. When we would end up talking about it she would feel like I felt a bunch of things I didn't feel.
Do you have any recommendations for this from what you've read?
Ask Dr. Harley in your email to help you figure out why your wife thinks you are yelling at her and how to negotiate this without offending her.
Couple questions:
Have either of you been married before?
Do you ever have any sexual experiences without your spouse? That could include pornography, masturbation, etc.
Our therapist witnessed this and said that she didn't hear what my wife heard and that she thought I had her best interests at heart but my wife just pointed to me and said that I was yelling at her.
Wow, you need to find better therapists who will validate your wife. How can you ever learn to empathize with your wife's point of view when you've got people telling you she's wrong?
I'm sure you do have your wife's best interests at heart, but if she says you are yelling at her this needs to be taken seriously and addressed rather than dismissed, and you need to change something about how you are talking to your wife.
I can't think of a single time Dr. Harley has ever dismissed my wife's complaints or validated me in dismissing them, and I've been at this a few years.
No fighting.
Fighting is like nuclear war in marriage - the only way to win is not to play.
Don't do or say anything your wife things is demanding, disrespectful, or angry.
No I mean seriously I will hug her and tell her I love her and tell her I'm not angry with her and that she is a wonderful wife and I understand that she is trying really hard to be the perfect wife and she will turn around and tells that I hate her and that I'm yelling at her and that I am full of rage. Assume that my therapist is right and that I am not fighting her and I'm not yelling at her. That is really what is happening.
No I mean seriously I will hug her and tell her I love her and tell her I'm not angry with her and that she is a wonderful wife and I understand that she is trying really hard to be the perfect wife and she will turn around and tells that I hate her and that I'm yelling at her and that I am full of rage. Assume that my therapist is right and that I am not fighting her and I'm not yelling at her.
But you need to understand your wife's perspective, not dismiss it. Why does she think you are yelling at her? What constitutes yelling, to her?
I strongly suggest you dump your therapist! Most of them suck anyway, I am afraid. Three counselors here before we came to Marriage Builders.
And Prisca and I probably had several conversations that looked a lot like that, back in the day. Why did she think I was yelling at her? Because I was a disrespectful jerk! I wasn't aware of it, and I would have defended my attentions and explained over and over again why I wasn't being disrespectful, and I really was doing the best I knew how to do. But I didn't know how to NOT be disrespectful. I had no clue. I was utterly, totally clueless about disrespect, and I was disrespectful all the time, and my wife's emotional barometer was extremely accurate about it, and the result was disaster.
I had to learn to see what my wife was seeing.
Got that email written to Dr. Harley, yet?
Another question: do you feel that it is normal for couples to sometimes have fights, even in a good marriage?
No I mean seriously I will hug her and tell her I love her and tell her I'm not angry with her and that she is a wonderful wife and I understand that she is trying really hard to be the perfect wife
While you might wish she would put it a little differently, her reaction is informing you this is hurtful to her. She likely receives that as a statement that she is not yet the perfect wife (especially in the bedroom) in spite of her efforts.
Because I was a disrespectful jerk!
Quite the understatement ....
No I mean seriously I will hug her and tell her I love her and tell her I'm not angry with her and that she is a wonderful wife and I understand that she is trying really hard to be the perfect wife
While you might wish she would put it a little differently, her reaction is informing you this is hurtful to her. She likely receives that as a statement that she is not yet the perfect wife (especially in the bedroom) in spite of her efforts.
Good point - I didn't even pick up on that when I read that sentence.
No I mean seriously I will hug her and tell her I love her and tell her I'm not angry with her and that she is a wonderful wife and I understand that she is trying really hard to be the perfect wife
While you might wish she would put it a little differently, her reaction is informing you this is hurtful to her. She likely receives that as a statement that she is not yet the perfect wife (especially in the bedroom) in spite of her efforts.
Good point - I didn't even pick up on that when I read that sentence.
Thanks, Markos.
Comments like that likely refresh her recollection and bring back into the present moment how very deeply she has been hurt in the past over this topic.
This is why her reaction in the moment may seem outsized compared to the present scenario.
Assume that my therapist is right and that I am not fighting her and I'm not yelling at her. That is really what is happening.
See my comment above.
The problem is that it really did happen (the fighting) 20 previous times. That is now part of her emotional package on this topic in any present conversations.
And, as we have seen on this board, Marmit, you have quite the arsenal of mean and putdowns to have used in your 20 fights with her.
you have ......insinuated that you know how I talk to my wife better than myself and a therapist,
She knows how you talk to her better than you know how you talk to her. And she is telling you in no uncertain terms that she does not like how you communicate with her.
Dr. Harley's foundational premise is that the recipient of the message is the judge of the message, not the speaker.
It is much easier to deliver your messages in a way she feels are productive than to insist she should feel different about your current method of delivery.
Also, if you have any sort of advice like, "If she isn't going to fulfill your needs you should split," then take your advice and your guilt elsewhere. I am never going to quit on my wife.
Guilt about what?
Your comment is rude. Taking your frustration out on posters is not going to help you or your marriage.
And I don't want advice from anyone who would jump to divorce or unfaithfulness.
Yeah MB is so very pro-unfaithfulness and immediately jumps to divorce when there is a sexual problem in the marriage.
You obviously have not read anything on this site. If you don't come back, then good luck to you. After three therapists and with a wife who doesn't enjoy sex with you, you will need it.
Assume that my therapist is right and that I am not fighting her and I'm not yelling at her. That is really what is happening.
Please listen to the clips in here.
Beware of Bad Counselors
Maybe it's because I viewed the comment that is being discussed as just a plea to not attempt to just pack his bags and leave the marriage, I did not feel that dictate was rude or offensive.
"Also, if you have any sort of advice like, "If she isn't going to fulfill your needs you should split," then take your advice and your guilt elsewhere. I am never going to quit on my wife."
Possibly he has received or read advice previously that suggested that option as the most obvious conclusion AND He Doesn't Want To Give Up On His Wife.
That's how I read it. The following comments are extremely defensive and reactionary and antagonistic, so it would seem that that some posters hit a sore spot.
Maybe there is something for him to start to learn if this thread can get off that rollercoaster. That will not be productive.
LTL
I too did not perceive this new poster was rude. It appears he does not have a lot of background about Dr Harley's philosophy and principles which is understandable as he just arrived.
He sounded a bit burned from past experiences w/other counselors and in his comment he is pleading his hope this site does not promote unfaithfulness and anti-marriage orientation.
The various strong reactions seemed to convince each side of the others rudeness. In the end I know each individual and this site want the same thing.
I hope he comes back. It would be great Marmit if you would email the Harley's radio show for help. I'm sure it will be like no other counsel and actually benefit your marriage.
Let's drop this subject and help this poster find solutions. Rehashing disagreements helps no one!
***EDIT***
Marmit424, here is my advice to you:
Take VERY seriously the possibility that you may be doing some pretty bad "lovebusters" towards your wife.
I know, you will probably think that "you don't" - - and that is a natural first reaction. But I sense the opposite is quite possibly true. The fact that you have had so many fights about the subject makes me think there have been some very damaging words spoken from you towards your wife.
So, please tell me: Have there been?
Marmit424, welcome to MB! Wish it could have been under better circumstances.
Firstly, congratulations on your new marriage!
With respect to your situation, you sound like you are really hurting a lot. Many people here have already provided you with some suggestions. There are a few more ideas from MB that I have that could help you, but you have not seemed to sign on in a while, so I am wondering if you are gone or not.
If you are still with us, please let us know more of the background to your situation. How are the two of you? What kind of a job do you each have? What kind of an education? Interests? With regard to sex, how much of an experience have each of you had prior to your relationship?