I never could have imagined after all of the time I spent on these forums preparing for my marriage that I would be where I am ten years later. I never thought I was capable of such anger toward my husband. I am overwhelmed with negative emotions most of the time and then have moments where I feel completely dead inside, exhausted, almost hoping for him to reciprocate my anger so I can just give up.
And then to see him trying so hard, yet still not able to grasp what I feel is really going on makes me feel so hopeless. I'm empty. I see him trying desperately to fill my love bank, but the bottom of the bank is unplugged and his efforts mostly fall silently on the carpet below. I feel badly for him when I'm not angry.
I think my biggest failing in this marriage was waiting so long to put my foot down and refuse to be objectified any longer. I was always so worried about him cheating on me again or simply resenting me that I neglected my own building resentment. I feel invisible to him and over time I became the kind of person I most pity and hate. For ten years I have taken care of everyone but myself until I reached the final thread of my being...until I felt suicidal. And at that darkest moment of weakness, my husband allowed his mother into my home and watched as she abused me and did nothing to stop her (this was a recurring event that he was fully aware of and allowed to happen). He fled to his safety net at work (during the summer when his schedule was quite flexible) and left me to her abuse as she again told me what a horrible mother I was in front of our three children (ages 9, 6, 2). And then when I stood up for myself, his fury finally surfaced and he chose me to unload it upon.
Many things have happened to destroy my love for him, but that was the final piercing and agonizing strike and I fear I cannot forgive him that. I have followed him to the middle of nowhere for his job where I have no family to help and have reached the point where I'm no longer comfortable asking friends and when I most needed him, he buried me. But, that last thread...my friends, that last thread was made of steel.
This isn't just about reconnecting. I don't WANT to spend time with him, yet. I don't feel safe, yet. Yes, I see how badly he wants to fix things, but I also see how oblivious he is to the things within himself that he needs to look at. He is scared to dig through his own dirty laundry. He is in denial. I've tried to explain that he has some really painful stuff that he needs to unsurface, but have told him I will NOT list those out for him. It is not my place to do so at this point.
I've had to spell everything out to him throughout our 15 year relationship and I'm done doing that. He needs to figure some things out on his own. It was my idea for him to come here for feedback. It was my idea that he see a therapist and his response was to offer to go to my therapist to find ways to help me. HE needs help. He needs to bare it all. In the posts I've already seen from him, nowhere I have seen him even hint at his own weaknesses and vulnerabilities and I think it because he is too scared to acknowledge them. I cannot return to this relationship until I can at least see real signs that he understands what I am saying and we won't just sink back into our old relationship. I do not trust that he is capable of continuing in his current efforts...he will at some point give up or the resentment will build. In a different thread, he listed the things he has recently done for me and all of those are examples that I painfully listed out for him in a last gasp to explain that he needs to come up with things on his own for them to have loving meaning to me. Otherwise, he is just being obedient. This man is a theoretical physicist, friends. He is a proven genius. But, he is a machine...a human calculator. Either he is not capable of putting his brains into real life terms or he has been unwilling to for 15 years. I feel neglected, invisible, and abandoned, and I'm sick of him seeing me as this broken object responsible for his anger and frustrations, a toy that needs to be fixed.

In the interest of disclosure and just laying it all out there, I will share the second thing that happened this year that might as well have been a knife in my stomach (sorry this is such a long rant). I had a prophylactic mastectomy on January 7th followed by three more non-cosmetic surgeries this year. I don't even remember the first week after the mastectomy because I had to be so heavily drugged. I was in constant pain and on constant medications that made me feel nauseous. I couldn't do anything for myself. My best friend flew cross country to come help so Jeremy could return to work. I was in such bad shape, she had to strip down and get in the shower with me because I could not move my arms. And still I felt obligated to take care of him sexually. I was doing everything I could to force myself to have sex at least 1-2x a week before the mastectomy (I had a hysterectomy in 2012, which did nothing to help my sex drive despite being on hormone replacement therapy). Here we were nearing 3 weeks post mastectomy. I couldn't even get myself to sitting position without help (and holy hell did that hurt), but I knew I had to take care of him or he would resent having to wait hand and foot on me (yes, this is how bad things had gotten). We had already reached the point in our relationship where he was no longer going to initiate because he couldn't take rejection and I was scared to tell him when I was sick because I knew all he heard was, "Not tonight dear." We're talking migraines, folks. I felt guilty for having vomit-inducing migraines once a month. So, at 3 weeks post mastectomy, while still on hydrocodone along with anti-nausea meds and STILL in constant pain, I initiated. It wasn't a test...at least not consciously. I felt bad. It had probably only been a few moments when I knew I couldn't follow through. I thought I was going to vomit from the pain. He could see my pain and asked if it hurt too much. I said yes and his response was, "Okay, I'll hurry up."
Sex has never been about me. He cheated on me twice in the first year of our relationship and I probably should have listened to the people who told me to run the other way quickly and never look back. I have felt for years that I could be anyone--he just needed sex with SOMEONE. I have struggled to come across as engaged and interesting and that just gradually disappeared as I felt more and more dead inside. So, yeah, we're dealing with a sexual aversion and I don't know how to forgive him. I also don't know how to forgive myself for allowing that to happen to me. That is not who I am. Yes, I knew the MB laws inside and out. I knew I shouldn't be having sex if I didn't want to, but I also knew that was the most important thing to him and it wasn't just an emotional need. He became cold and grumpy to me and the kids when he didn't get enough. He punished me with his behaviors and his words. And then in my darkest hour, he told me he had been miserable for years because of my inability to meet his needs. I've been to countless doctors, visited sex stores, watched porn, read erotica, bought different goos and lotions, trying desperately to find a fix for my broken little self. Gynecologists, therapists, endocrinologists, menopause therapists, you name it (I asked pretty much EVERY doctor I ever saw if they could help me). I dealt with the insanity of changing birth control pills and antidepressants over and over. I'd been repeatedly convinced that I'm the problem; I'm broken and need to be fixed...for him. Two months ago when I was finally put on an effective anti-depressant, I put my foot down and said no more. I will not fake it anymore. I will not sacrifice my body or my mind and allow him to continue to see me as the broken one. And during that time, he had several epiphanies that have helped him to see his role in my lack of sex drive. HUGE epiphanies, but he still doesn't get it. All of this time, I have been protecting HIS insecurities. Yes, I've given him instructions. I've gently told him he's not a good kisser and to stop suffocating me. I've begged for a delicate touch, a bit of romance, and so on. I've given specific instructions as I've done for everything in our relationship. I can't do it anymore. He complains that he can't read my mind, but after 15 years together, I expect some growth in that department. I expect him to notice when I'm in pain, sad, angry, and just dead inside. I feel like I've been married to a college kid for 10 years. A guy who just wants to get laid and is willing to be a little extra nice to get me in the sack. So, he does things to be helpful around the house and every little thing he does, I know he just wants sex. I still feel disgusting when he looks at me. I'm dealing with the loss of my breasts and trying to find beauty in what I did to save my life, and he still ogles me. He still NEEDS me when I just want to figure out a way to balance taking care of myself while also fulfilling my very busy role of mother and business owner (a business that has been the only thing keeping me going...it is my passion).
He acknowledges that big changes are needed and that he needs to stop pressuring me. He helped me with my business recently and so I hugged him and thanked him. I don't think he even realizes that he ran his hands down my waist and butt and back up during that hug. I FINALLY put myself out there and tried to show him I appreciated what he was doing and I just felt like a lump of raw meat. Just more proof that he doesn't get it and that he is not in control of his own actions.

I'm so sorry this got to be such a long and ugly rant. I in no way think I'm perfect...never have. I'm always looking for ways to improve myself in all of my relationships. Right now, I'm trying so hard not to be just plain mean and cold. And somehow a few smiles and laughs translates into "good friends" to him. Again, I feel so invisible and I'm exhausted by it all. I just want to stop.

Your old friend,
Smiles

Welcome back to MB.

Does your H post here? If so what's his posting name?

Hi Smiles, thank you for signing up and giving your perspective. I have highlighted and underlined above what I see as the main obstacle in your recovery. His going to a therapist is a distraction at a time when he needs to be focused on your marriage. By your own admission you have withheld much needed complaints to him that could have been valuable guideposts. You also have sacrificed so much that you are seething with resentment. I am relieved you can see how damaging sacrifice and a lack of radical honesty is to your marriage.

BUT, in order to move forward and transform your marriage, you MUST tell him what he is doing wrong. Otherwise, he will be groping around in the dark and will never find the right door. You HAVE to spell it out and he has to get it right. He cannot get that valuable perspective from ANY therapist on the face of the earth because the ONE person he needs to make happy is YOU. So only you hold the key to what makes you happy and what makes you unhappy.

A complaint is an opportunity for improvement. He needs those complaints in order to know how to change. If you don't tell him, he will not know.

NOW, we can help you with this, but my suggestion would be that you all sign up for the online course and get professional help from Dr Harley and his team of coaches. You are both going to need special guidance to get through this. Your husband has been here for YEARS and when DIY does not work, it might be time to escalate the problem and get qualified professional help.

Yes, here is the most recent thread that he started:
http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2836251&page=1

Responders requested that I start my own thread.

Does he have angry outbursts?

I completely understand what you are saying.

"Your husband has been here for YEARS and when DIY does not work, it might be time to escalate the problem and get qualified professional help."

No, my husband has not been here for years and he has not been doing the DIY dance for more than 2 months. I found MB in back around 2000. I spent hours reading the literature. I printed up all of the surveys and convinced him to do them with me while also bringing him on board here. I set boundaries and did everything possible to set us up for success. For 10 years, I have been struggling with communicating to a man who only hears the parts he is emotionally capable of hearing. I have been holding this marriage together. I have also been the one taking parenting classes and constantly trying to better myself while chewing on his (and his family's) criticisms of me. It is only in the past two months when I have disengaged and forced him to open his eyes that he has taken me seriously and taken steps to improve himself and only now that I have asked him to do some "mind reading". I am an open book with everyone I've ever met (yes, this has made me very vulnerable to people who do not have my best interests at heart). I have no secrets and certainly never kept any from my husband. The fact that anything he has discovered in the past 2 months comes as a surprise to him is painful evidence of how much of what I've told him has been filtered out or straight up ignored.

His angry outbursts were a new thing this year and clearly a direct result of his frustration. I know he feels lost and like he can't do anything right. It is only in this past month that I believe he has begun to even be able to receive positive feedback or appreciation from me in a form other than sex.

Will you fill this out? Marital Problem Analysis

You validated my point that he needs to be held accountable and that is what the online course achieves. We might be able to help him here, but you will get more consistent help from Dr. Harley.

You don't have time for guesswork or "therapy" from the sounds of it. The most straightforward way to get you on the right path is to be very open and honest about your complaints and have someone hold him accountable long enough to change his habits.

"By your own admission you have withheld much needed complaints to him that could have been valuable guideposts."

No, I have not withheld complaints, but I do see how what I wrote lead you to that conclusion. I have tried to put them gently so as not to damage his already fragile ego and I've tried wording them in many different ways. I cannot think of anything that I have actually withheld. It is that fragile ego that he must address because I do not feel safe at this point reiterating his failings, particularly in bed. He has childlike reactions to my attempts to detail what I'm missing...mostly wounded animal responses. I can tell that I'm just hurting his feelings and even now when I feel no love for him, I don't want to do that.

5x experiences very strong and negative physiological responses to not getting enough sex...this has been incredibly punishing to me over the years, especially while dealing with my own emotional and physical disabilities, not to mention three kids who constantly need me and a son with Aspergers who has interrupted me 6 times since I started this last post! Gah! Anyhow, between that and his being able to see right past my very obvious pain, still seeing me as a means to his release while knowing how miserable I am, I believe he has deep seated issues that require professional help. Perhaps had he revealed these anger issues to his therapist, they'd still be talking.

And fwiw, my therapy sessions have been incredibly productive.

Have you read this?
What to do with an Angry Husband

For each of the following, indicate how serious a problem it is in your marriage. Use these
numbers to indicate your answer.
1. Serious enough to threaten our marriage unless resolved
2. Serious, but not enough to threaten our marriage if left unresolved
3. Sometimes disappointing, but not a serious problem
4. Not a problem at all.
1___ Affection
3___ Family Commitment
1___ Sexual Fulfillment
3____ Admiration
1____ Intimate Conversation
1____ Selfish Demands
3___ Recreational Companionship
2____ Disrespectful Judgments
4___ Honesty and Openness
3____ Angry Outbursts
4____ Physical Attractiveness
4____ Dishonesty
4____ Financial Support
3____ Annoying Habits
3___ Domestic Support
4___ Independent Behavior
Are you in the process of divorcing? ___No
If you have not filed for divorce, have you been considering it? __Only recently and not seriously

During this weekend, I introduced three goals of marriage: (1) create a lifestyle that is fulfilling for
both of you, (2) avoid being each other�s source of unhappiness, and (3) becoming each other�s
greatest source of happiness. Your failure to achieve which of these three goals is having the
greatest negative impact on your marriage? 3
If you could learn to achieve that goal, would you be able to achieve the other two without much
difficulty? Yes

Why do you not feel safe? What does he do in response to your complaints? It is important that you are free to make complaints to him. We can help him become more receptive to them. But you cannot withhold complaints.


Please stop psychoanalyzing him. He doesn't need a therapist. He needs to learn to start behaving. And we can help him what that.

But you first have to stop performing on demand and stop withholding complaints. Having sex with him when you don't want to has caused enormous resentment. It just has to stop. You say you don't withhold complaints and then say you don't feel safe, so I am very confused.

Fortunately, the angry outbursts have not been effective for him. I shut that [censored] down pretty quickly. He has never tried to hurt me. My angry outbursts have surely been more damaging, though also rare and ineffective from my perspective. He's handled my outbursts well, too.

In 10 years of marriage, I think we fought less than 5 times before this year. We have always been very open and honest and outside of his inadvertent demands for sex, I think we have always been very respectful. Only this year have I ever even said anything negative about him to others. I've never feared him speaking poorly of me to anyone else...I don't suspect he has said much of anything about me to others.

Have you seen this?
Resentment Type A and B

"Please stop psychoanalyzing him. He doesn't need a therapist. He needs to learn to start behaving. And we can help him what that."

If buying into that is a requirement for me being back on MB, I might need to opt out. I'm sick of people talking about men like obedient dogs who need to "behave". That is demeaning and disrespectful. I have a friend who told me that all men need is to be fed, have their head pat, and give them sexual release. It was cute at first and then I realized how pathetic that is.

"But you first have to stop performing on demand and stop withholding complaints. Having sex with him when you don't want to has caused enormous resentment. It just has to stop."
Done. I think the absence of sex has allowed both of us to see things more clearly.

"You say you don't withhold complaints and then say you don't feel safe, so I am very confused."
I'm saying for the past 15 years, I have been 100% open and honest, although sugar coating things that could be damaging to his ego. This past year, I have been more straightforward with those things, which has been met with anger and hurt.

When I say I don't feel safe, I'm not saying I fear he'll do anything to hurt me. I have never ever feared for my safety even during his angry outbursts. I just don't feel comfortable being honest with him anymore even though for the first time he is asking me to lay it on him. It is only in the past couple of months that I have withdrawn that I'm withholding anything and to that end, I am withholding everything. I've needed space to take care of myself without worrying about his needs for once. I've needed some breathing room without the ever present guilt. I hit rock bottom with suicidal ideations and had to pull myself back out of the gutter while still performing my roles of housewife and mother, undergoing surgery, and seeing a whole team of doctors to deal with my physical ailments and emotional health.
So, when I talk about withholding everything, I hope you can understand that I was driven to that in order to survive. Had my husband truly had my back like he promised and continuously assured me, that wouldn't have been the case.

BrainHurts, that is one I do not remember reading. Honestly, I think we both experience Type A resentment with regards to sex.

It is demeaning and disrespectful to psychoanalyze your husband like he is a mental patient. You are not a doctor and he is not a patient. No one is talking about anyone like an "obedient dog;" we are all about behavioral change here, whether it be men or women. In fact, the first place we start is with the first 5 chapters of Lovebusters. One does not need to go to a "therapist" to change behavior. They just need to understand what they are doing wrong and stop it.


Thanks for the explanation. We can help you state your complaints in a way that does not come across like an attack. It sounds like he needs very clear, concise feedback to GET IT, but it has to be framed in a very respectful way. We can help you with this.


Gotcha. This makes sense. What has happened is that you are in a full withdrawal.
Thanks for the explanation.

Smiles, if I were you, i would really consider signing up for the MB program. You and your husband could greatly benefit from it because I think your really needs someone to hold him accountable. If you can't do that, I would start by eliminating love busters and agreeing to never do anything without the other's enthusiastic agreement. That applies to sexual fulfillment *AND* any contact with his family. The idea is to stop the bloodletting and THEN start filling the love bank. Are you familiar with the policy of joint agreement?

If you don't want to go through the MB course, you can do this with the aide of the Lovebusters book and the workbook, Five Steps to Romantic Love. That is where I would START. Take a look at the worksheets that come with the workbook here: here

You misunderstand. ***EDIT***

ML was not suggesting anything like training your husband and treating him like a dog, with simple treats and rewards. It was especially ironic that you objected to advice that you saw as treating him like a dog, since you yourself described him in these terms:

Regardless of your own terminology towards your husband, what ML meant was that he needs to KNOCK IT OFF; he needs to stop expressing "very strong and negative physiological responses to not getting enough sex". He needs to express his needs respectfully and he needs to accept your needs and perspectives, rather than getting "physiological".

MelodyLane, and all of us here, give advice that comes from Dr Harley, the founder of the Marriage Builders programme. He is a behavioural psychologist, and as such, he believes in practising behaviours that improve our lives and marriages. He is firmly against any psychologist or counsellor who encourages a person to explore their childhood in the hope of righting whatever wrongs took place there. This is because such activity is a distraction from solving the problems in the present day, and because the wrongs that were done to us in childhood can in fact never be resolved. We cannot go back and make our parent treat us kindly, or undo the physical or sexual abuse we suffered. What we need to do is leave the past in the past and focus on the day-to-day, learning new habits and behaviours that improve our present-day lives.

If a spouse has angry outbursts he need to learn techniques in order to stop those outbursts for good. If a spouse has annoying habits, such as poor personal hygiene, messiness, lateness or a computer game obsession, they need to practice NOT DOING THOSE THINGS now - today and every day. They are habits, and in a few weeks, with assiduous practice, we can learn new, pleasing, marriage-friendly habits.

That's what ML meant by "he needs to learn to start behaving. And we can help him with that." She implied nothing to do with treating him like a dog and giving him sex to shut him up.

This thread has been cleaned up and recent argumentative posts removed. Please refrain from bickering any further. Please also remember that the purpose of this forum is to help posters understand Dr. Harley principles. It is not a venue to share personal philosophies.

Thanks Ariel!

I've requested that my first thread disappear. I was asked to bring my side to MB and I did so at 2am NYE after my much needed fresh start to the year turned painfully ugly both physically and emotionally. I need a redo and after this past year I deserve it.

I am a person who has been hurt repeatedly by people in my life that I depend on. I have a tendency to endure, give too many chances and allow myself to suffer inside while appearing to be incredibly strong on the outside. But, once I've had all I can handle, I have the hardest time forgiving and can hold one hell of a grudge.
I fear this has happened with my husband and I do not know how to move forward when my biggest fear is that his efforts to change are temporary. I worry about that because I know they are taking a world of effort on his part and I'm still getting signs that he doesn't fully understand what I've been trying to tell him. He seems to only be wrapping his fingers around the most tangible requests, but I still feel like the revised, stronger, and more genuine Smile is still invisible to him.

It seems to me you both need to eliminate your AOs.

Did you listen to the clips in here?
Anger Management 101

BrainHurts, I have been banned from my other thread. I've asked that it be removed and hope that can be respected. My DH encouraged me to vent and that post was something that normally would have never been shared with anyone let alone a public forum that would ban me from commenting. AOs, while I agree are incredibly damaging, are far from our main concern on this road to recovery. We have much bigger fish to fry. You are talking to a couple whose marriage was born into the MB approach. We can count the number of fights on one hand prior to this very traumatic year and that's after 15 years together. Before 2014, neither of us said two negative words about the other to anyone else and while there were some flared tempers at times (more me than him and usually due to kids pushing us over the edge), angry outbursts did not exist. We both agree they have no place in our marriage.

You've been banned from your own thread? By whom?

Have you tried emailing the MODS and asking them? I'm confused.

Are you guilty of any Love Busters?

What Love Busters would your DH say you're guilty of?

Do you get any UA time?

Since he's been posting are you seeing any changes at all?

I'm guessing I'm not supposed to discuss the other thread. Yes, I've contacted moderators twice, but nobody has responded to me yet.

I believe our main problem to be our failure to respect the POJA.
I will think about your other questions and respond when I get back from my job this afternoon.

The moderators ARE responding to you but apparently the email address in your profile is no longer valid.

To get a response from a moderator, please email them directly and update your MB profile with your current info.

No, you haven't been banned from that thread.


That is not MB policy.
Read this: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2263402#Post2263402


I have read your thread and think you got good advice on it. It's not fair to ask people for help and then ask for it to be erased and start a new thread after folks spent a lot of time (volunteering) reading your posts and then responding to you.


I don't think BH was incorrect in advising that you look at eliminating all AOs and other lovebusters. It doesn't have to be the "main concern" in order to be addressed.

It's concerning that you seem to want to control the advice that you are getting. That's typically what we see when people start new threads.

Thanks, I see the emails now. That is an older account and I was thinking a private message would be sent. Sorry.

As for eliminating AOs, consider it done. Neither of us have had an angry outburst this whole year!
Seriously, though. Neither of us are concerned about angry outbursts. As I stated before, we have a long history of being very respectful of each other (basically all of our fights have happened this year and we're still talking about 3 fights). We've done a good job of communicating difficult topics via email so that we have time to calm down before responding and we are starting to feel more comfortable having those tough face to face interactions. The last AO was a few weeks ago when we had a real heart to heart in person and I simply told DH it was not okay for him to yell at me. That was the end of that.
Was there something more you wanted me to say with regards to angry outbursts?

Smiles

We just talked about the other questions BrainHurts asked, but I will have to update after we get back from dinner. Overall, we agree that UA is severely lacking and he says he cannot identify much in the way of LBs from me other than when I get frustrated with the kids. I couldn't think of anything during my long drive for work earlier, but I did have some other rather large epiphanies.
I thought about the change question and can comment later.

Smiles

You are the person who introduces Smile to the world.

You can't be silent and heard at the same time. How can an intangible request be answered? You don't know any mindreaders do you?

What change do you think is temporary? Even if he were to start demanding sex, all you'd have to say is no.

No man ever fell out of love for not getting sex. I can see how you felt his promiscuity in younger years put you in a sexual competition, but he would have fallen for you without sex. Sex doesn't start love.

Men have an overpowering need for it but they won't explode, not will they fall out of love.

"You can't be silent and heard at the same time. How can an intangible request be answered? You don't know any mindreaders do you?"

I'm the furthest thing from silent. I talk TOO much. I've had nicknames like "Mouth" as a child,"TMI Tammy" since college, and my favorite "Rabble Rouser" because I absolutely hate when people avoid confrontation and let emotions boil under the surface. My DH is the quiet one who does not know how to express emotions, but at the same time, I can read him like a book (his words, not mine). I studied family/marital therapy in college, but knew early on I could never be a therapist because I talk too much, but all of my friends love coming to me for relationship advice. I am an open book to the extent that I forget myself when talking to people who have a history of taking advantage of information that makes me vulnerable.

I said that he seems to only understand the tangible requests, not that I was not making deeper requests. By that, I mean he will do anything I ask of him (although he has slipped on some pretty important ones over the years if I don't nag him, which I absolutely hate to do and try to avoid), but he needs explicit/detailed instructions on how to proceed. As someone who loves surprises, that has been very boring and it sucks the meaning out of any acts of love if I had to tell him exactly what to do. We're not talking about mind reading. We're talking about small acts of love that show me that he knows what makes me happy. I feel like I'm not worth the time and energy for him to plan and do something special even though I've always told him I love surprises and hate that I have to do all the planning for UA (not to mention pretty much everything else having to do with our family). I feel like a stranger to him.

"No man ever fell out of love for not getting sex. "
I think anyone could fall out of love if their #1 EN is being completely neglected. There has never been anything easy about saying no to him when it comes to sex.

The change I fear is temporary is the shift from doing things for me with the hopes that will result in sex as opposed to doing things for me because he wants to make me happy, because he loves me. I think he has done a good job of that over the past few weeks, but I've withheld sex and he knows that's not changing until we learn how to make love in a way that involves me and makes me want it.
He had a choice to make. Either get pissed off that I was refusing sex until things change and give up on our marriage or make some serious changes. He has chosen to fight for our marriage, but how am I supposed to know if he truly understands that difference (meeting my ENs because he loves me or because he wants me to screw him) and can maintain it or if this huge amount of effort on his part (he agrees he is working harder than he ever has) is not sustainable?

Dr. Harley recommends you sit down on Sundays and schedule together your UA time for the week. Can you both do this?

What is the number 1 love buster you would say he is committing?

Yes, we can and will. DH has even helped find a second babysitter, which is the type of involvement I've been asking of him for awhile. The prospect of planning UA time has been overwhelming for me since I always have to do all of the work and make it work around his schedule. Sucks the fun out of it a lot of the time. I've asked him many times over the years to stop leaving all of the planning to me. I'm very low maintenance, especially with dates. Take me for some beer and bar food while we watch football...awesome.

Another very recent improvement (oh, about 20 minutes ago) was he told me that he plans to sacrifice some of his work time for UA. In addition, he now understands that the time I have to sacrifice is his problem as well as mine since I'm also a full time mom desperately trying to find time to get caught up with my work. While I know his job is more important than mine in terms of finances, my job is every bit as important to my identity and mental health as his is.

We're going to schedule in as much time as we can.

Dr. Harley says it takes 15 hours of UA a week to maintain love. You both should really be shooting for 20+. Can you do this?

There are lots of little LBs that are mostly cleanliness issues and annoying habits that have all become much more difficult to ignore. Every little thing seems to make me frustrated with him now, but I think that goes for anyone that you get sick of.
Basically, I married an ogre and now that I'm not in love with him, I find him pretty disgusting.

By far, the biggest Love Buster is when he stands by while his mom abuses me. I was verbally and physically abused as a child, mostly verbally abused as a teen by my stepmother (while my dad stood right next to her) and then by my boyfriend at boarding school (my mother saw him attack me and did nothing), and verbally abused by my MIL for the past 15 years. Nobody has ever stood up for me but me. Twice DH insisted that she leave our house when she'd escalated to screaming at me and he claims he has emailed her regarding her behavior, but I've never seen any of those. He'll admit to me that he agrees her behavior was horribly inappropriate immediately after she does something, but he has never set boundaries to protect me and has often asked me to avoid problems with her. I've been put in a position to play nice to someone who hates me as a wife and mother for our entire relationship. She critiques me endlessly and has flat out told me I'm a bad mother many times, twice in front of our kids (with the last time being this past April while I was still recovering from my 2nd surgery and dealing with severe depression). I've finally insisted that she never be allowed back into my life and I believe the way she treats me in front of our children is very damaging to the way they see me as an authority figure so I don't want her around them either. He agrees with all of that, but 7 months later he has yet to let her know that she is no longer welcome in our family. When I hear him talking to her on the phone as if everything is fine, it makes me hate him even though I realize he is in a horribly difficult position. But, I have protected him from being put in that position for far too long. I've been determined to avoid coming between him and his mom or coming between her and her grandchildren since day 1. I've nurtured those relationships and made sure the kids made her special cards or gifts for mother's day, Christmas, and her birthday whenever possible. She is a nasty and hateful human being hiding behind the disguise of being a loving Buddhist and she is poisonous to our family. In June when she visited, she admitted to hurting me intentionally and then sent me an email that verified that she still believes the horrible things she said to me after the birth of our first child almost 10 years ago. That's when we both knew she'd never change, but he still loves her and cannot seem to let her go.

See...told you I talk to much.

Smile

No, 15 hours a week is not currently a possibility.

Little things about your husband irritate you when you have fallen out of love.

I wouldn't compare it to the other emotional needs, because sex is very different to them. It is the only emotional need which can be safely disregarded when falling in love. None of the other four intimate emotional needs can be - sex can.

Even the non intimate needs outrank it!

It also doesn't matter how high it is on a list of person's needs. I have a high SF need myself and I can assure you it is perfectly possible for me to be in love without sex. However if there were no conversation, (a lower need for me) I'd struggle. There's a reason why first dates all concentrate on the same needs, regardless of the people concerned, because sex doesn't build love, the ENs of affection, recreation and conversation do.

Dr H tells women constantly they needn't have premarital sex if they don't want to because it does zip for creating love. It's incredibly common for men in particular to discard their sexual partners. It just simply does not create feelings when the need is met in isolation. That's why men exercise patience through courtship.

It's like how a woman with a high financial support need will fall in love with a penniless, albeit promising, student, and even many years later she will stay in love with him through a period of unemployment. Some of the needs are perfectly capable of patience.

I truly don't want you to worry about this (having sex while ill for example!). You talk about 'withholding' sexual energy - but you don't have any to withhold! It's your husbands job to create it - it's entirely on him. It's not neglect it's honesty. Meeting another person's needs unenthusiastically is play acting. It's dishonesty. It fails to hit the mark too, so the need remains as unfulfilled as if you hadn't bothered.



Ah, of course you don't want your needs to be met unenthusiastically either! I don't think you need worry that your husband's sole focus is on sex. I doubt he married you only to have sex with you - because sex can be had with anybody. Not even the most sexually obsessed person would make that their criteria.

Just ensure the 'work' is pleasant! The dates should become his favourite time of the week. From his posts it sounds like he misses you and wants to get you away from your desk.

What can be done to make it a possibility?

I'm having a difficult time answering that, so I'm going to lay out a typical weekday.

I still experience extra pain in the morning from my mastectomy surgeries, so my husband has taken on the morning responsibilities with the kids while I deal with my issues. I'm very thankful for that. He gets up, wakes the older kids, showers, keeps them on track, eats, makes lunches, and shoves them out the door for school before he leaves for work. I shower and rarely eat breakfast because I end up too busy with our little one.

Our 2yo has preschool twice a week for 3 hours, but I have her full-time otherwise. Fortunately, she naps consistently 1-2 hours a day...that is my only work time during the day and usually my first chance to feed myself. I'm responsible for all kid schedules in terms of extracurricular activities, playdates, doctor appointments, along with shopping, etc. while DH is at work. I often drive all over town like a crazy lady the first half of the day on those two preschool days. I am a photographer and try to schedule photo shoots while our 2yo is at preschool, but usually that time is spent running errands that are too difficult to do with a toddler in tow especially since I'm not supposed to be lifting her. Driving is still very uncomfortable for me, but unavoidable. The other three days are usually more low key and spent around the house, but I don't get the time without the toddler and she is in that stage of "pay attention to me or I'm going to destroy your house". 90% of my photo shoots are during the weekend, taking away from family time.

The older kids get home from school at 4pm, which is usually right after the youngest wakes up from her nap. I help them with homework and encourage independent play time with the hopes of getting a little more work done before I have to start on dinner.

DH typically gets home at 6pm and offers help where needed. We usually eat around 6:30pm then have the older kids start their evening routine of finishing any homework, cleaning their rooms, getting stuff ready for morning, and getting ready for bed. DH and I often work together to clean up after dinner, but I also will try to sneak in a little editing time on my computer while he reads stories to the girls. Sometimes we both read in different rooms since our girls are 4 years apart in age. I have a difficult time tuning out noise while I'm working, so I've taken to putting on Netflix shows to block out the background noise. I feel guilty doing that while the kids are still awake, though. I don't feel guilty doing it anymore while DH is at his computer because of all of the years he has hurried to his computer to work during this time frame, but I realize that is now when he wants my attention.

Once the kids are in bed (DH also takes charge of the evening routine most nights), I'm finally off mommy duty and can take care of me. That is usually at my computer. DH is typically at his computer during that time as well. This is the only time that I have to sacrifice for our marriage and I'm utterly exhausted by this point both mentally and physically. Editing my pictures is relaxing to me and my creative outlet. It's not just a job I'd be sacrificing. It is my release, my much needed ME time after taking care of everyone else all day. DH has shown more interest in my work lately and has been a big help in researching, purchasing, and setting up my business needs. He's also shown interest in my images, although that seems pretty forced.
I've never felt guilty doing my work after the kids are in bed because DH has always done this and still complains he doesn't have enough time to get all of his work done. He is a theoretical physicist...he is a number crunching machine and that is always with him. I feel like I'm always interrupting his work even just to talk to him as he usually doesn't hear me at first. I also have to help our kids interrupt his thoughts since he doesn't hear them talking to him either. Our 9yo son, recently diagnosed with high functioning autism, is the same way. They are both doing some pretty powerful stuff in those big heads of theirs and now that I know much more about autism (think Aspergers even though that medical label has been taken away), I highly suspect DH is in a similar place on the spectrum as our son.

So, as far as I'm concerned, DH works from about 9am until I go to bed, which is when he watches his porn. FWIW, I think the porn watching is a big problem in our marriage now and I'm realizing that it always has been. It has set both of us up for failure and I've often wondered if he has an addiction. But, that's a whole other topic.
DH is finally looking for ways to give me attention, but now I don't want it. I've taken care of him and our three kids our entire marriage and neglected taking care of myself. I feel like I need some time to take care of me before I am healthy enough to work on our marriage. I'm not ready for 15 hours a week with my husband even if we could find the time.

I've been neglecting my 2yo and she has had separate pee and poop accidents since I started this post. She's having a tantrum now, so it's time to go. I think my head is going to explode.

Have you read what Dr. Harley says about porn?

What to Do When Your Spouse Has an Addiction to Pornography Letter #1

DH is saying that during this semester, his schedule is easier and he can make time for me during the day. Part time daycare is really difficult to come by in this small town--it's mostly all or nothing. DD will be old enough for the 4-5 day a week preschool options (half day) in the Fall, so that will help a lot with my current daytime craziness. For now, I guess I need to give our marriage those precious hours while DD is in daycare. I am not physically healed enough to exchange childcare services with other moms, which is the only other option I'm left with right now. Trust me, I researched the hell out of child care options while recovering from my surgeries and desperately needing help and again when trying to create time for my photography business. Yay small town.

I just remembered that I have two long-winded stream of consciousness letters I wrote up in the past couple of months that will give people more insight. While I wrote these just to get some thoughts down on paper, DH has seen both of these. I decided to share some of my insanity with him in writing since I don't feel like he hears me when I speak. I'll go find those and post in a minute.

December 7, 2014

Damn, my throat hurts this morning. I thought it was better. And my chest. What is up with the stabbing sensations? Is that even real or just in my head? I guess nerves can be regenerating. Is it too much to ask for that **edit**** to hold off until my throat feels better? No way I'm falling back asleep now. I reach for my glasses and pain erupts through my chest and incisions. I can't care anymore. I need my glasses and I'm sick of trying to find ways to avoid the pain. Ugh. Why do I feel like I have a Nyquil hangover? My head is spinning now that my eyes are open. **edit*** it. I don't care. I need to pee, but I don't want to move again. Better just get it over with. Man, I hate gravity first thing in the morning. Even with sleeping in this stupid tight sports bra everything stings and aches that first time I sit up. I remember how much worse it was without it. What I'd give to be able to sleep completely nude without these tight garments and without worrying about turning my husband on. What he'd give for some sex to start his day. No, it's time to bring on the pain this spinning ball of fun creates. Gotta GET up for that reward, though. One, two, do it! Okay, just give it a second and it will get better. I guess I should just be glad I CAN do it without help. I can't even explain how much I hated the flipped turtle routine after each surgery. Searing pain WITH help. The inchworm gymnastics routine to wiggle a little more upright for a sip of water amounted to a great success and even that took at least a week to achieve after the first surgery. Just a couple weeks ago, the pain was so bad that I had to scream to abort an assisted attempt to sit up. So, this isn't so bad. I can deal with this as long as I don't let this tickle in my throat win out with a cough. I just wish I could wake up one morning and hop out of bed to pee like a normal person. Oh and happily rip out one of those disgustingly phenomenal farts my husband can kill a cow with each morning like he's telling yesterday to go to hell and bring on today. No, I just want to crawl back into bed. If I just stayed on my feet a little longer, the gravity induced pain would subside, but my head hurts and I'm just too tired. My body is tired, my head is tired, my kids are arguing over cereal and hell if I can go deal with that right now. My heart is tired. I don't want to share this little hell of mine with anyone anymore. My pain is such a burden. Both my physical and emotional pain are exhausting to those around me. I see and feel how they are worn down and I sense that this is a small glimpse of what it will be like if and when I grow old. It breaks my heart to realize that my dear Bubbi endured endless years of this feeling let alone the persistent pain and fatigue. The mental exhaustion is worse than what your body feels. I've had moments where I've welcomed the physical pain because it draws my attention away from the rampant negative thoughts eating away at me. Maybe that's part of why I push myself so hard despite knowing how sore I will be; although the bigger reason is I'm sick and tired of asking for help. I especially hate needing help with small things. It makes me feel weak and fragile and just plain horrible on the days where I've been cold and grumpy to the people I need help from. I can only control so much of what my body feels, but I cannot allow my spirit to be weak and fragile or I will break into a million tiny pieces. It's been 11 months. Ha! Today is the 7th! 11 months ago today I brought this on myself. Had I known how bad this year would be, how it would reveal so many painful truths while sending never ending pain through my body, totally **edit*** up my already disastrous hormone withdrawals, and driving a wedge between already struggling connections with people I need in my life...no way. Bring on the next MRI. Bring on the routine phone call to tell me they found something...the waiting and worrying and scheduling, the long drives for painful procedures, the waiting rooms with people who understand and are hoping I get good news but are scared to talk to me and reveal their truths, the sweet nurses and technicians who can't say what they see, the doctors brought in because the nurse either wasn't quite strong enough or experienced enough to ram the tool into my chest and excise a piece of the tiny questionable flaw in my body...pain and fear and waiting. The very brief and overwhelming relief a week later when I get the good news before more questions and the realization that I get to do this all over again in six months assuming I don't discover something worth worrying about before then. I didn't want the people who cared about me to be dragged through the broken shards of glass that was the worry consuming me each time either. I had no idea just how hard this would actually be on me and my family and still, what a painfully difficult choice to make. I already had the rest of my womanhood sliced and diced from my body stealing my hormones among other intangibles. I didn't want my breasts taken. They were a bit deflated, but even I still found them beautiful. They were so REAL. They moved when I moved and squished when I wanted them to and I could feel them. They were a part of me that had grown with me as I became a woman and a mother and a birthing goddess. I nursed three babies, which despite my struggles, was truly magical when I realized that not only had I grown a being inside my body, but I provided 100% of her nourishment for the first six months. My breasts were downright incredible. But, they are gone. I had no idea they'd steal even more of my womanly hormones as they were carved from my thin flesh. Four surgeries later including the latest necessary implant swap and I should enjoy these sharp pains that represent growth and healing as these silicone bags try to become a part of me. I will probably never have sensation on the surface of these things. At least my nipples were spared so these foobs appear more realistic. Of course if I ever get to enjoy the perks of fake boobs and stop wearing bras, those sensationless reminders of what I used to be will be on display for everyone. I know, I gotta focus on the positives. I still need to be smart and question every little change, but the nearly 90% lifetime chances of those ticking time bombs going off has been reduced to less than normal levels. I got lucky. The pain will go away, we will figure out the drugs needed to keep my head from spinning exorcist style, and with a lot of work, some of these relationships will survive. Speaking of which, I'm needed. I need to go shower and start another day of full-time caregiver and house wife. Time to go take care of everyone else.

December 1, 2014

It is after 1pm and I am finally sitting down for the first time to catch my breath. My 4th surgery of the year was 2 weeks ago today. I'm sick with a cough that makes my sternum feel like it is ripping in half and my voice is still hoarse from laryngitis on Friday. I woke up with a Nyquil hangover at 7:30am and barely got Kaia out the door for preschool on time with her breakfast bagel in hand. After dropping her off on the other side of town, I went to Walmart to return an item and buy groceries. Overall, my pain level isn't bad, but it's amazing how sore I can feel after plucking items off shelves, loading them on the belt at the register, heaving the bags into the cart, then unloading them back into the car--ordinarily, I would have brought Kaia after school and used this time to get some work done since she loves munching on a corn dog while I shop at Walmart, but I knew I couldn't lift her in and out of the cart). Just steering the darn cart was enough to make me want to give up, so by the time I got in the car, even buckling my seat belt and turning the steering wheel was painful. And by the time I'd gotten to the UPS store, I was baking in my heavy coat that I didn't want to strain myself to remove after freezing my butt off loading up the car. It turned out I needed to go home to find a box for the item that needed mailing, but first I needed to run across to Dillon's for the loaf of bread I forgot to buy to go with tomorrow's lasagna). While home, I hunted down the smallest box I could squeeze said item into and taped it up, ran a load of laundry, prepared our pork chile verde for dinner (LOTS of chopping...meh), emailed Annika's teacher to remind her I'd be bringing frosted Rice Krispie Treats for her birthday on Wednesday (when am I going to make those???), my therapist returned my call from Wednesday about changing my appointment time (nevermind, Annika will get her birthday dinner on Thursday instead of Tuesday since Jeremy and I are going out on Wednesday), and spent 5 minutes trying to find our check book to pay for Kaia's preschool before giving up and calling Jeremy who had it with him. I was late leaving (OF COURSE) and the left garage door magically opened and refused to close when I tried to close the right side from inside the car. I got to freeze my butt off again while fighting with the garage door and then playing Indiana Jones to get the right side closed again (need I say that I'm not ready to run yet?). I raced back to UPS to deliver the package ($13 to return my mom's little pillow? Really?) then met Jeremy at the gym to grab the check book (enjoy your workout! :P ). I hurried over to pick Kaia up from school then was forced to slow down to a snail's pace getting back to the car (have I mentioned how cold it is outside enough?). Finally back home! Kaia was begging for her leftover pizza from last night that she ate all of the cheese off of, so I grated more cheese and nuked it up for her. I scraped together chunks of leftover Thanksgiving turkey for a sandwich while listening to Kaia complain about her pizza being too hot. After finally sitting down to take my very first bite of food of the day, there's a knock at the door from the mailman delivering a package. Next I wrangle Kaia and get her back in her seat to listen to her tell me that she doesn't like her pizza and scarf down my sandwich while threatening to starve her until dinner if she doesn't eat before her nap. While she's eating, I switched and folded the load of towels downstairs and then loaded up the dishwasher before feeding the rest of her pizza to the dogs. Next I got to play the oh so fun game of put the toddler on the potty. While I was trying to find a potty treat for her, she dumped out a little sample bag of dog food that one of the older kids had opened and left on the pantry table. So, I cleaned up the mess and fed it to the dogs before coaxing the now screaming Kaia who had just closed the pantry door on her hand into my bed (this is always extra fun when I can't lift her). Fortunately, she was too tired to fight sleep, so I was able to escape my bedroom early and well, here I am. EXHAUSTED. My nose is stuffy, my chest is throbbing, and I desperately want to crawl back into bed with my sleeping baby. Don't worry, I've decided not to sweep the floors today.

I wanted to share this one because I can't tell you how annoying it was to have to meet my DH at the gym in order to get the check book. I have major surgery and have no one to help me during a time I'm supposed to be recovering and he still has time to go to the gym. I know he needs to take care of himself and that gym time is important to him, but I told him many times I was overdoing things and needed help. It has been so hurtful the way he quickly resumed his normal life while I was left to suffer through each day alone with our toddler and this happened after the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th surgeries. It was when I wrote this that I realized he had totally forgotten I was still in recovery and had no clue how much pain I was in because I had stopped all complaining as part of my withdrawal from him. I sent him this rant and told him as much and his response was that, yes he had forgotten and he was sorry. He said that he would not be offended if I reminded him that I had just had surgery and still in pain. I wanted to spit in his face.

I would love some help addressing the porn with DH. I've tried many times to tell him it is hurting me and our marriage. I don't really feel offended by it or wish he was saving that insatiable sexual appetite for me. I think it has created a very unhealthy and unrealistic view of sex and how to be aware of me. It is a big part of why I feel like sex has never been about me and why I think he could be having that need met by anyone. There is no emotional connection and I fear there hasn't been since I was forced to worry about him cheating again, which happened 15 years ago...just a year into our relationship when we were struggling to live long distance.

It has only been a few months since he finally realized his role in making sex desirable to me, but he struggled with my physical limitations (from the recent surgery) and became whiney and irritating, which was the biggest turnoff I think I've ever experienced with him.

Are you guilty of any Love Busters? Which ones?

Here's a good show on pornography. Tell us what you think.

Radio Clip on Pornography
Segment #2

My LBs:
*When I'm long winded with the kids (something that I'm constantly trying to fix because I know it's not effective).
*When I nitpick the kids or come across as excessively negative (something that has obviously been worse thanks to depression).
*When I choose to be on my computer instead of spending time with him (I know exactly how this feels because he did it to me for years and then the times he wanted me off the computer was late at night when he wanted sex before bed).
*When I let the little things get to me (the opposite of his LB that he doesn't notice the little stuff...or sometimes the big stuff).
*When I give unrealistic threats/restrictions to the kids.
*When in disciplining the kids, I punish the kid and not the action (again, something I've worked hard and improved upon).
*When I blow up at the kids (this is one of his LBs for me as well especially since I do such a good job keeping my cool all day long when I'm on my own and my blow ups tend to be when Mr. Chipper gets home from work when I'm beyond exhausted. His blow ups are scarier and usually are less expected/sudden where mine tend to have lots of warning because I tell the kids I'm getting very angry. Obviously, both of us need to stop letting the kids control our tempers).
*When I'm grumpy when he gets home from work.
*When I stand my ground on safety issues with the kids (for instance, one of our rare fights was because he let the kids play with fire unsupervised...when our 7 year old burned the hell out of our 5 year old's arm, he was more willing to negotiate).

I can't get those radio clips to work.

What error are you seeing?

Nothing happened when the play button was pressed.
I was able to get it to work on my phone just now.
My situation is very different. I've always known about his porn habit and allowed it in an attempt to pick my battles and keep him from straying. Boundaries were set and he was honest with me about it.
I'm not offended. I do think it greatly shaped his view of sex and has increased his objectification of me.

Here's another good clip that Dr. Harley talks about the contrast effect of porn even if it is POJA'd.

Racio Clip of the Contrast Effects of Porn

Then this program won't work for you. Dr Harley will not coach couples who cannot commit to this - because of that reason.

Susie is correct. When Dr Harley was in active practice he refused to take on anyone who would not commit to the 15 hours of UA time, because his program won't work without it.

here

from Effective Marriage Counseling, pg 30:

I'm trying not to be snippy, but I've really received very little feedback or advice after answering a lot of questions, listening to sound clips, and filling out surveys, and now I'm being told if I don't magically create 15 hours of uninterrupted time with my husband (whose job is the main problem, but is our major source of income to support our family of five), all of the rest of those wonderful Marriage Builders techniques/approaches won't help us worth a hill of beans.
I have a really hard time believing that every couple on these boards are pulling off 15 hours minimum of UA or they're told to hit the road. I understand why UA is so important, but surely 5-10 hours is a good starting place. Hell, I don't even WANT to spend time with my husband. I want some time and space to work out some of my anger and resentment...to finally take care of ME. And I don't want things to feel forced. We went to two concerts and then dinner recently and both dates felt forced. The main problem here is that I've not protected myself and put my foot down when it came to doing things I didn't want to do. My DH has never once intentionally hurt me, yet he has nearly destroyed me. I don't want to open the door for more pain. I need to know that he understands what got us to this point and how to avoid it happening again before I open my heart back up. I'm being pushed before I am ready to spend loads of time with a man who I don't think fully grasps what went wrong in the first place. He's made a lot of progress, but I don't feel safe. I don't want to spend time with him. Wouldn't planning these dates go against the policy of joint agreement?

And I'm really frustrated because I feel like I'm talking to a bunch of robots. There is zero emotion in your responses, nor acknowledgment of my or my DH's emotions. The responses seem scripted. It really seems like I hit a special keyword that sets off a specific auto response and then the meaning is lost in nitpicking. It's very sad. I learned so much from the people on these boards back in 2003/4 and now it's as machine-like and emotionless as my DH has been through most of my marriage.

Smile

The responses might seem scripted because THEY ARE. We are here to help you and your husband follow this program not to chat about emotions. We aren't here to discuss or acknowledge emotions because that does not save marriages. Dr Harley's program DOES. It seems you and your H want to write a lot about your feelings and emotions, which is not going to move this forward.

The people who were on the board in 2003-2004 did not know anything about Marriage Builders and did not have recovered marriages themselves. All they did was use this forum to blog and chitchat, which never helped their marriage. Because when a person is blogging, they are not learning and implementing the program.

Dr. Harley changed the forum to a place of learning, versus a chat forum about 4 years ago.

Smile, it is really hard to communicate with you, okay? You talk and talk but don't seem to DO. Believe me, we want to help.

We haven't told anyone to "hit the road" but Dr Harley sure did when he was in private practice. The program doesn't work without this step. Another aspect is that couples who won't devote 15 hours a week to their marriage are not serious. It just means they place a lot of things BEFORE their marriage, which is why their marriage is a wreck in the first place. If that doesn't change, then the marriage won't change.


It takes 15 hours to MAINTAIN romantic love and 20-25 to create romantic love. You can ask any of us who are in romantic marriages about why 5-10 hours doesnt work. Couples start falling out of love when your time falls under 15 hours. So I don't agree that 5-10 hours is a good start. It won't achieve the objective so I don't see the point. If a couple will only devote 5-10 hours per week to their marriage, that just means they are STILL putting less important things before their marriage and that is part of the problem.


If you follow the program, you will want to spend every free moment with him. If you follow the program, that can happen. But it can't happen if you refuse to follow the program and put less important things before your marriage.

And yes, it will feel forced and awkward at first. Creating new habits always feel FORCED at first. When I quit smoking it felt forced at first. But you will never achieve anything worthwhile in life if you are not willing to create new habits and stop bad habits.

]
Resentment fades if you create a romantic, happy marriage in the present. The mind does not wander to the unhappiness of the past when you are happy in the present. That is the whole purpose of this program. But it has to be followed step by step. Like Harley said:

Most people find me very easy to talk to and very open minded.

"You talk and talk but don't seem to DO."
I'm not sure what you are asking me to do. The only thing I've been told to do that I have not done is not in my control. My husband is in a tenure track position. I've known for many years the first five years of that would leave pretty much no time for me or the kids. I accepted that long ago. You want him to quit his job that has the potential to guarantee life long job security within the next 2 years?

I'll read back through all of the posts, but I don't remember seeing much in the way of advice or instructions. I think I've been pretty remarkable about answering all questions promptly and thoroughly. To be frank, I didn't really come here for advice or instructions, but at my DH's request, I have posted here and left myself wide open to critique while being told to avoid the thread where he shares his feelings...something I have been waiting for him to do with me for 15 years. My DH has wounded me deeply and completely unintentionally. I don't trust that it won't happen again. I don't want to spend time with him. I can't picture us in love again. I feel dead inside. My behavioral therapist has been very good at helping me see DH's POVs and coming up with effective ways of talking to him about my feelings and expectations. That is working well for me.

So, I ask again. What is it you'd like for me to do? I've answered every question. I've been completely open and honest. Are you just picking through my posts, mostly ignoring me while you choose which points to feed to my DH? So far, things have only gotten worse since I started posting. My DH has been mopey, whiny, and sad. I guess I finally got some emotions afterall.

We want you to follow the program, step by step. The first step is to find 15-20 hours per week to get out of the house. If you can find the time to go to work and take care of your kids, you can figure this out too if you make it a priority. After all, your marriage is the most important thing in your lives. You won't get much use out of his career if you are divorced, and that is where you are headed now.

Start here: How to Create Your Own Plan to Resolve Conflicts and Restore Love to Your Marriage

And pay special focus on Lovebusters. I would get the book Lovebusters and the workbook, Five Steps to Romantic Love and start there. Take turns reading each chapter and do the lessons at the end of each chapter.

The UA time needs to be taken seriously or this is all a waste of your time. You will become quickly discouraged when you don't see any results and you won't see any results if you don't take this step seriously. You will just get discouraged and quit. UA Time worksheet

It would be ideal if you could go through the Marriage Builders program. They would assign you a coach and motivate you to complete the lessons. Those of us who have gone through it have great marriages to day. You can have that too.

But I don't believe you or your H are focused or motivated enough to do this on your own.

How would you address the conflict of UA being against POJA. I honestly don't think spending loads of time with DH right now is going to be good for us. I wrote in detail why...could someone respond to that? I don't mean that to be rude. I kind of feel like all of my time and efforts to explain my concerns with the program are being ignored.

You honestly don't have the slightest idea how to create a great marriage. You are speaking to someone who does have a great marriage from using this program.

How about putting aside your own failed ideas and try Marriage Builders? If you want to have a great marriage, you can have that. But if you aren't here for that, then what is the point?

How is the POUA against the POJA?

Because I don't want to spend time with him.

After reading back through this thread, I owe an apology to indiegirl. You spent a good amount of time answering some of my concerns and I remember planning a response, but got distracted and forgot. A lot of that has set off some big red flags for me.

We know this. That describes about 99.99999% of couples who come here in crisis. They have fallen out of love and would rather do just about anything than spend time together. The solution is to learn to create great times together. That is achieved with the policy of joint agreement while avoiding love busters.

Here is some advice from Dr Harley on the private forum on that subject:

I think the short answer is that you need to do UA time. Do not go with your feelings today. You feelings will change when you make your times together the most enjoyable part of your week.

Wow!!

I can tell he misses me. I can tell he desperately wants his best friend back. I can tell he is genuinely sorry. I CANNOT tell that he truly understands what it will take to make sure we don't fall back into old habits or that he will be able to sustain his current efforts to love...ME. All this time he has been filling my love bank, every dollar has had IOU written in dark ink across it. Does nobody see that I'm dying inside because I'm realizing that the person I thought was my best friend has been treating me like a blow up doll for 15 years? And I hate him for it.

I don't think you read that right. My biggest internal conflict is as follows and hasn't been addressed:

My DH is very genuine and honest. He has never in his life tried to hurt me (or anyone else as far as I know) and never would intentionally try to hurt me. Despite that, he has damned near destroyed me. I'm scared to open my heart up to him before I'm convinced he understands how he hurt me in the first place. I am still hearing him say things that are direct evidence that we're not on the same page. I am someone who has a long history of making myself vulnerable to people who have repeatedly hurt me and I am not comfortable given him that opportunity again. He is beyond frustrated with me and I don't know how to handle it anymore. I'm starting to really think this is a lost cause.

Maybe I need him to look me in the eye and swear to me that he would still love me if I never had sex with him again. Of course, I've told him that before and then quickly followed it up with "but, I'd never do that to you." Still, he has never in any way even hinted that he could stay in love with me without his sexual needs being met. I don't think he can. It's been about 2 months and by far the longest he has had to go without sex since meeting me.

I agree this is a lost cause if you won't follow the program. We can't change your marriage if you refuse to follow these steps. We understand you are hurt and frustrated, but those feelings won't change until both of your actions change. Feelings follow actions, feelings follow actions.

We have seen marriages 10x worse than this that were transformed in a matter of a few months. But you have to put aside your own notions and follow this program.

Smile,

I will say my last bit and then hope others can get through.

Regardless of the past, which was bad as we ALL can see, please understand that you cannot seem to move forward because of the past.

You write a lot, say you talk a lot, and are big on hashing out the past in therapy. I wish I could try to convey to you that the past needs to be left there and NEW habits/future need to be the focus.

If you want to get q divorce, do it. But if you want to try and save this, please open your mind to the concepts. Yes, it doesnt feel right, it feels unnatural - that is because unhealthy marriage is your natural.

Good luck. I went through a similar thing years ago and the program saved us. But it can't save you when the past is constantly held over ones head like a hammer.

You are creating a condition where no matter what he says, he is damned if he is and damned if he isn't. If you can't give him the opportunity to do anything without being wrong then yes, he will get frustrated and give up.

You did that to several posters in a previous thread, I think all of us were female. I think it is important for you to realize how much this attitude kills motivation in anyone who wants to be there for you.

We understand that you're hurt and not in love with him anymore. Dr. Harley guarantees that if both spouses follow MB that there is 100% success.

I REALLY think you need to sign up for the online program. You'll have your own coach to coach the both of you. The coach will be able to help guide your H to stop committing Love Busters and to fill your ENs.

I rehash the past because of the number of times I have forgiven people and allowed them back into my heart just to be hurt again. I don't want to fall back in love with a man who hurt me whilst having the best of intentions and no clue he was doing it. I abandoned ship in order to save my life and I don't really want to jump back on board until it's passed safety inspections. I'm not ready to make that leap of faith. DH has only very recently realized any of what he did to get us here. I think he can use some time to think about those things and give me some space to work through my anger. Things have been worse between us since he's been on here and our discussion tonight was a disaster--the worst we've ever had by a long shot. The holidays were actually not bad and I was starting to relax around him until he started pressuring me to schedule UA. I don't think I can feel honest/genuine during UA until I work through some of my anger issues and actually have some desire to be around him. I've challenged him to make that more appealing to me just like he'll need to do for SF. In the mean time, I kind of followed him to the middle of nowhere and am stuck here unless I want to tear his kids away from him, which I won't do. Things were getting better the way I was doing it, so I'll go back to that.
Thanks for your time,
Smile

Then make it a part of your relationship now.

No porn. No discussion about sex whatsoever. No discussion about when you think your drive is going to return. Tell him you expect patient, pleasantness while this is going on. To show you that his sexual need isn't a 'do now or die' issue. I don't really think it is - he just wants clear directions on how to show that to you.

All you can do is insist on behaviour that you can respond to.

Honestly I think your request about no sex if you got cancer would have been incomprehensible to a man. He would have been thinking 'What on earth does that have to do with the real situation?!' or 'Would she seriously rather have cancer?!'

You'd have to be a woman with similar ENs to yours to understand what on earth you were going on about there. I understand that you want the need for affection to be met. The need for affection is always strictly non-sexual. It's usually a need for women becausse they know there may be periods where they cannot provide sex, such as after childbirth or during illness. They need regular, strong, asexual expressions of care from their partner so they know they will always be provided for, regardless of sexual output.

In order to make your complaints comprehensible stop giving him 'stream of consciousness' dialogue and start giving the type of directions you would give in a car and he were driving. Short and to the point.

Women are often very resistant to the idea of spelling their need for affection out.



Now I'm not sure that the above list would do the trick for you because you seem to dislike physical affection at the moment. Notes and flowers might work better. Perhaps kisses on the forehead. The point is you need to give your husband a similar set of precise directions. Otherwise he is going to feel directionless and hopeless.

It's also worth considering that he can't just tell you he would care for you in some future scenario. He has to show you by meeting your needs. For that to happen you need to go out on 15 hours UA a week. Even if he shows you care for 8 hours a week, it isn't going to be enough to have a dramatic input on your feelings of fear.

You will have to trust us there.

I think that is an excellent idea. What specifically can he do to make you feel like hitting the target on UA time?

No 'he needs to make me feel' responses allowed!

You understand that you won't be talking about your relationship during UA time?

Thank you, indiegirl. I really would love your help.
**edit**
I understand if that's not an option, but what's been going on in these threads isn't either right now. Neither is what happened to us last night.
Again, thank you for your time. I promise I'm not trying to get a hair flip reaction.

Indiegirl, please PM me with an alternate way to discuss if that is an option.
I can't do this here anymore.

Then access the help of a coach and Dr Harley. That way the Mexican standoff between you won't be an issue.

You can have my email address from the mods if you want it but for what earthly reason?

I can't give you anything other than the MB advice you've already been given.


Dr H would be a far more effective contact to make.

SmileaDay, you can certainly do as you wish, but I think it is very unfair of you to impose your problems on one member. [a volunteer] Your marriage problems are overwhelming and will take the input of many board members. I seriously doubt even that will make a difference. That is why I suggested you get the professional help of Marriage Builders.

I really couldn't agree more. You need the big guns because neither one of you is motivated to take that first risk.

It took many forum members to teach me the concepts.

I understand. I asked because you are the only one that I feel at ease talking to right now who knows MB principles.
I feel like I'm slipping back into depression and I refuse to let that happen again. I'm working on a plan to remove myself from this situation for my safety.

Smile, I don't understand what that means. What is unsafe?

I can't stick around here feeling his rage and judgement of me and waiting for my depression issue to get out of hand again. I need to protect myself. Don't worry, he would never lay a hand on me. Yet, the pain he continues to inflict is more than I can handle right now. This is not a safe place for me.

Specifically how does the 'rage and judgement' manifest itself?

See it's a DJ to say what is going on inside his head. Only he knows that. Tell us instead what you can see/hear that bothers you.

**EDIT**
I'm not feeling depressed right now. I'm pissed. I'm so done with this crap.

Moderator's Note: If you have questions regarding
moderating actions, contact us directly. Thank you.

Well it was helpful for me because now I can see what you are on about.

You will feel safer when your husband quits the angry and wounded performance.

So instead of hiding that information you should do this.



This advice is golden and ML has been in your exact shoes. Don't waste it.

Yes, you guys need a coach.

You are both just so angry that this board can't seem to do anything without being insulted in return.

Please find a coach here or sign up to do counseling with Steve. I do not think your current counseling has been successful because you are SO incredibly angry. Counseling like you are currently doing it will keep you miserable and in counseling forever. Give Steve a chance and let him help you have a more positive future.

**EDIT**

Moderator Note: If you have an issue with moderation, contact the moderators by email. Further disruption will not be tolerated.

I've cooled down enough to try again here.

I'm not sure what to do right now. I don't feel equipped to deal with DH's anger, but I know it's there even when he is doing his darnedest to be kind and gentle and I don't want him to be dishonest. He is resentful and sick of me while telling me he loves me and will do anything it takes to get my heart back. Part of me wants to draw that anger out so he acknowledges it himself.

It seems the only way he takes me seriously is when I'm brought to the edge of anger or depressed and broken. But, both ways, he seems to latch onto a few little comments and miss the message I'm trying to convey. And both ways, I hate myself. Anyone else who knows me will tell you I'm a very smart, kind, and strong person. But, I'm not that person when I'm with my husband. Right now, I need some distance from that.

I hear him telling me he would do anything for me, but I also know doing those things would cause resentment. Of course, that's the same reason I've given up on stopping the porn for all of these years and the same reason I've continued to have weekly sex with him despite not wanting to.
He yelled at me the other night that he thought I wanted him to go jump of a bridge. I'm crushed to know he thinks I want him to hurt. I've dedicated myself to being the backbone needed to allow his career to get where it is today and I'll be damned if I'm going to be the one to hurt it. He is on the brink of something truly amazing at work, he owns a gorgeous home, has three amazing kids, has his health, and good friends. Does he think that was all just good luck? He has admitted to me so many times that he has everything he could ever want to be happy except for more sex. I don't think he truly appreciates all I have done to make sure he was successful.
I on the other hand have gone 15 years being pregnant, caring for babies, moving every 1-2 years all over the country for his job and never close to any of my family, dealing with severe arthritis, migraines, constant cancer scares, hormonal hell, physical limitations, depression, and abuse from my mother in law. And I feel awful that this happy man has had to endure my pain and suffering. I've always felt awful that I've been in too much pain or too tired to meet his SF needs. Why does everyone else see me as this amazingly strong person who has overcome some truly rotten deals and my husband sees me as this broken sex toy that he needs to fix? I just had the worst year of my life and still succeeded in creating an incredible photography business. Even I never dreamed I'd be this successful so soon. I'm admired and adored by so many people, but feel judged by my husband and I feel like I just drag him down.

Okay, that's all the toddler will let me type this morning. I hope you guys realize it takes huge blocks of time to spit out these thoughts lol. I've got a very demanding and noisy boss!

"You are both just so angry that this board can't seem to do anything without being insulted in return."
FWIW, that angry comment from me is out of context.

Smile

SAD, by not doing those things, you hurt your marriage terribly with your resentment. His resentment is only there until a suitable alternative is found. Yours is there forever. He should not be doing anything that makes you unhappy and especially now when your marriage has reached a crisis state. All he is doing by continuing these behaviors [porn and going to the gym] is fanning the flames of your resentment. That is poison to your marriage and you won't soon forget it. His "resentment" however, ends the second you find suitable alternatives.

Are you familiar with Type A and Type B resentment?

from Effective Marriage Counseling pg 112-113

What about Resentment?
One of the most common objections to to the POJA is that it creates resentment when it is followed. I agree; it does usually create some resentment. But far more resentment is created when it is not followed. An illustration will make this important point.

George is invited to watch football with his friend Sam. He tells his wife, Sue, that he plans to accept the invitation. Sue objects.

If George goes ahead and watches the game, he's guilty of independent behavior. He is not following the POJA and Sue will be resentful. When George does something against the wishes of Sue, I call her resentment type A.

If George follows the POJA and doesn't accept Sam's invitation, then George will be resentful. When George is prevented from doing something because of Sue's objections I call this resentment type B.

Which type of resentment makes the largest love bank withdrawals: type A or type B? The answer is type A, and thats why the POJA helps build love bank balances. I'll explain.

When G violates the POJA, Sue has no choice but to feel the effect of the thoughtless decision [love bank withdrawals] for as long as memory persists - possibly for life whenever the event is recalled. But when George follows the POJA, the negative effect is limited in time. It only lasts as long as it takes to discover an enjoyable alternative that is acceptable to Sue.

George lets Sue know how disappointed he is with her objection but is willing to discuss other options. Sue wasn't invited to watch football and doesn't want to invite herself to Sam's house so she suggests inviting Sam and his wife to their house to watch football. George calls Sam, he and his wife accept, and the new activity puts an end to George's type B resentment.

Type A resentment can last forever, but type B resentment stops the moment a mutually enjoyable alternative is discovered. Those with poor negotiating skills may have trouble seeing the difference because they have not learned how to resolve conflicts. They may feel resentment about a host of issues that have been unresolved in their marriage. But after you teach a couple to negotiate successfully, unresolved issues are minimized. Then it becomes clear to them that the POJA helps build Love Bank balances by eliminating type A resentment.

I couldn't fall asleep last night and made a list of LBs.

1. Selfish Demands
2. Disrespectful Judgments
3. Annoying Habits
4. Angry Outbursts
5. Independent Behavior
6. Dishonesty

Selfish Demands: I find sex to be a selfish demand in our relationship. I do not feel like sex has been about me since the infatuation stage. We have lacked an emotional connection during sex since those very early days. That he can get emotional relief from sex without me feeling an emotional connection adds insult to injury. Given that sex has been the main theme surrounding our mutual unhappiness, anything and everything regarding sex completely deflates and deadens me.

DJs: I blame his mom for her incessant DJs with regards to my parenting. I think she has shaped his vision of me and caused him to focus on and exaggerate my parenting weaknesses. I also feel angry that he would critique my parenting when 1) his parenting style has pushed me more to the other extreme, 2) I spend a lot more time with the kids and he has always gotten to be the good guy who comes home from work in a good mood and has the energy and patience for them (plus he doesn't see what a kickass mom I am most of the day), and 3) when I have backed off and let him deal with the kids, I've noticed much of the same exhausted, frustrated, short-tempered parenting in him that he critiques me for. I resent him for finding ways to blame me for his angry outbursts toward the kids. I've never blamed him for my behaviors despite feeling like I had to be the bad cop. I always feel awful after I lose my cool and beat myself up. I'm tired of being labeled as a bad mom, but I'm also realizing that I have a lot of annoying habits with regards to my parenting that I need to and will work on.
Another big LB in the DJ category is when he presumes to know what I'm thinking and assumes I'm thinking the worst of him. I know I've done that to him plenty, so he should know how badly that feels. The stinger there is that I've been completely open and honest and feel like I've clearly told him what I'm thinking, so to see those words being replaced makes me think he isn't listening to me. I'll take some of the blame for that since I talk way too much. Of course, I also find myself talking in circles because I don't think I'm being heard. I think he'd admit that he is terrible at expressing any emotions to me and feel I don't have much of a choice than to try to read his mind.

Habits: I married an ogre. With a negative love bank, all of the little things that I just learned to live with in an effort to pick my battles seem huge.

AOs: These are rare enough that I don't consider them a big problem. I'm the bigger offender here and am willing to excuse his outbursts. I think his control is stellar, but he needs to find a way to express his pent up resentment before he explodes.

Independence: The porn has always rubbed me the wrong way as a form of independent behavior, but has seemed the lesser of two evils given how high is need for SF is. I've never felt like I could satisfy him. The more I gave, the more he wanted (except while TTC). The bigger issue with porn IMO is the way it has shaped his view of sex.
His gym routine better fit this category. I've always felt jealous that he gets that time to take care of himself while my exercise routine has almost entirely consisted of chasing toddlers around. The time we spent together working out back in Santa Barbara was some of my favorite UA with him. I've missed that for over a decade and it hurts me that he still has a regular routine without me. This past year has been extra hard since I have been in too much pain to get exercise and have lost what little release I got from physical activity. That's not his fault, but it makes it more painful to hear about his exercise routine. I don't want him to give this up. I think it is an important part of his life and am willing to deal with that being unfair. I just wish he realized how it makes me feel when he talks to me about it.

Dishonesty: I don't think this has been an issue since a year into our relationship when he slept with two other girls. I found out because I was diagnosed with HPV and asked if he'd been with someone else. I don't think he has ever been able to keep a secret from me. I knew he had cheated the second time just by looking in his eyes. While he struggles desperately to recognize and express his emotions, I can see them plain as day and I can tell when he is holding something back. Now I can see him holding quite a bit of negative emotions back in an attempt to engage me and draw me back into the relationship. Knowing how much anger and frustration is bubbling under the surface only makes it harder to be close to him. I'd rather him admit it, accept it, and address it.

**edit**

**EDIT**

Moderator's note: Help this poster with MB principles or refrain from posting.

Are you a photographer?

FWIW, it's not dishonest for an angry person to knock it off. I was the angriest person on the planet when I was trying to railroad my husband into accepting my superior perspective. When I came here for help tackling the problems, the forum members a) told me to snoop for an affair and b) knock off the anger immediately.

I laughed in their faces but when it turned out they were right about a) I did what they said about b).

I found out about my husbands cheating without a single AO, but I was very honest throughout! Calm and honest.

There's nothing with more power than a calm person who knows they can't control others. Just themselves. Anger is all talk. Calm is all about action.

These days I am much calmer and more capable. Anger is not something that has to be brought out but eliminated. It was always just as upsetting for me to put myself through that futile anger.

It also doesnt matter if he is 'trying' not to be angry - he needs to succeed. Anger doesn't need to be directed AT anyone. If it is exhibited then it is a bomb affecting everyone in the vicinity including himself.

Some very helpful complaints in the lovebuster list!

Well, that's one of the reasons I AM so angry. I've been trying to get through to him for years about the things he does that hurt me. It wasn't until I got angry that he seemed to hear me. I've been very clear with him that I hate nagging. That once I've resorted to nagging, that means I've felt my requests were repeatedly ignored (and no, I'm not above negotiating...just flat out not heard). That's how I feel about my recent anger. I feel driven to AOs where that hasn't been an issue in the past. It's like out of body experiences and I beat myself up for them afterward. That's exactly what I've been feeling like each time we try to talk now...like I have severe PMS and am watching myself from the outside and no longer able to control myself. I hate this person. I wish he could hear me when I speak to him. It makes me feel like he doesn't care about or respect the real me.

Yes, I started my photography business just two years ago. I used to be prodigy a saxophonist, but my jaw broke in college. This photography business has FINALLY filled that void in my life that I lost back in 1998...just before I met DH. I lost my identity...something that everyone around me seemed to respect and admire. And then I put everything into helping my husband reach his dreams.

Check out this article from the MB website:

How to Deal With a Quarrelsome and Nagging Wife.

Don't be turned off by the title. The article describes how a husband's neglect of his wife leads to the kind of frustration you are experiencing. This might be something to point your husband to.

Is that something that might make fun UA time further on?

My boyfriend and I sometimes drive somewhere with our cameras to do street photography or landscapes or wildlife.

I'm rubbish with mine whereas he is really good, but it's just for fun.

Honestly? I think I deserve a gold medal after reading that nagging article. I'd be surprised if DH thought of me as a nagging wife at any point in our marriage.

"So she becomes demanding, disrespectful, and angry in an effort to get her way."
Maybe I'm being blind, but I can only remember a couple times that I was demanding and they involved the immediate safety of my children. I also didn't get my way. I backed off and well...my daughter bears the burns that changed his mind. And, yes, that really pisses me off. She has a silver dollar sized burn mark on her arm that is 2 years old and might never go away. Every time I edit it out of a picture, I remember how he disregarded my concerns.
The anger and disrespect is brand spanking new. I didn't FEEL anger or disrespect toward him until this past year. I internalized everything. We both found ways to turn any blame or responsibility back onto me. I treated him like a freaking god. A stinky, hairy, noisy god.

And now, all I'm asking for is some time and space to work through my anger. I take care of others all day long. I'm mentally and physically exhausted when my chipper husband walks through the door from his job that he loves and has been able to give his undivided attention to all day long. I can barely hear myself think until the kids are asleep. In the past, that has been the point where DH started hinting that it was time to take care of his needs. So, yeah, I'd prefer to finally bury myself in the work that makes me feel whole and appreciated by others and makes me feel good about myself. The last thing I want to do is go spend UA with the man who doesn't seem to even grasp everything I've given up to make sure he was happy. This isn't past tense either. I still don't think he realizes how much I do every day for our family. I don't think he realizes how exhausted I've felt this whole past year from the surgeries and hormonal hell of being thrust into menopause. I don't think he appreciates how tolerant and upbeat I've been given the hell I've endured...and I feel like I've done it alone. I wish he'd stop focusing on my failings. Stop pointing out my imperfections as a parent. Stop assuming all is well if I'm not whining and complaining to him. Stop forgetting about me.

Yesterday, a new friend of mine had the same prophylactic bilateral mastectomy I had a year ago tomorrow. She's doing amazing. I realize my recovery was especially bad and I want hers to be easy, but at the same time, seeing her up and moving around in her pictures made me cry and feel jealous. I told DH as much. I told him again how sad I am that a year later, I'm still not able to look back and be glad I went through with it.
His response was that I'm doing great.
I said, "No, really I'm not."
He said, "I meant physically."
"No, I'm not. I'm in pain." I have shooting pain in my chest off and on throughout the day. I'm dying to exercise and keep trying to, but it hurts. I'm dying to pick up my toddler without hurting myself. It's been a year and I haven't been able to scoop that sweet, little girl up in my arms the way she loves. SHE is far more understanding of my pain than my husband. My 2yo notices when I cringe or groan. She comes to me and hugs me and tells me it's going to be okay. Yesterday, she saw me crying about DH. She gently touched my face and asked if I was okay.
I told her, "No, baby. Mommy is sad."
"Why are you sad, Mommy?"
"Someone said something that made me sad."
"Do you want my blanket, Mommy?"

Yes, that sounds nice. We went to Breckenridge to celebrate our 10 year anniversary this past August. I enjoyed that trip and loved getting to relax and take lots of pictures. He played along and was supportive of that. I also enjoyed the hiking we did even though I was in plenty of pain. That's the only time we've done something like that together since having kids. I pretty much insisted that we do something special for our 10 year since we'd only ever gone out to movies and/or dinner. It wasn't a demand...I knew he wanted it too, but I asked him to do the bulk of the planning for this.

I can't tell you how much I wanted to go to to Switzerland 2 years ago. He got to go give a talk there for his work. I even tried to send my good camera with him because I so desperately wanted pictures. He took a few pictures with his phone. I got to take care of three kids on my own for a week. I don't feel like he shared much of that trip with me. We chatted via email a few times that week, but our son was about to go in for major surgery and I was pretty stressed out with those pre-op appointments while DH was gone.

My mom was a travel agent when I was young. I was very lucky in that I got to travel the world for a handful of years. I LOVED that. My dream vacation is to go to New Zealand. I haven't really got to go anywhere since I got married (I realize this is often something that must be saved until the kids can all be left behind for a longer period). I've always looked forward to the day when I'd get to somehow join him for one of his conferences in an exotic location even though I know the bulk of his time would be working. Of course, I'd much rather endure seemingly endless flights, preparing a lecture, nice dinners, and hotel buffets and gyms/hot tubs interspersed with intelligent conversation with some of the smartest people in the world than play slave to three kids. Hmmm...I guess he did tell me plenty about his trip.

Anyhow, yes, I would like to just go on little day trips away from the kids, but the prospect of planning that is a bit overwhelming right now.

I am so sorry for the pain you are in, and the disappointments that you have had to bear. Your physical challenges, and your husband's lack of empathy. He really can't feel what it's like to be you. Nobody can, because nobody will ever experience your exact same situation.

There are many here, including myself, who have experienced a similar lack of empathy from their spouse. Right now, you are feeling like your husband will Never get it. And you may be right. But he is here posting, and even if some of what he posts is hurtful, please trust me that it is a wonderful way for others to help him change. The patterns are very obvious to us, and would be very obvious to the MB coaches, especially with help. It is not an easy process, but it can happen, and any progress will bless the lives of your children. Having said that, the habits are deeply ingrained, and without a 3rd party to point them out, it's unlikely that he will be motivated to see them.

I felt similar to you at times, where the pain of the lack of empathy was so intense, and my health had suffered, triggers abounded, but I couldn't imagine being the cause of my children's unhappiness through divorce.

I can't offer you anything more than the others here, but want you to know that there are those who have experienced maybe a small portion of your pain, and that you are in the right place. For whatever reason, you have held on this long, so you are probably one like me who just holds on, even when we probably shouldn't.

One thing that I have learned is that if I am going to hold on, then I have to stick to my plan regardless of how hard my spouse makes it. I need to be responsible for my own lovebusters. We all have disappointing circumstances in this life, and having chosen a partner without empathy (substitute whatever) is one of those that we cannot change. But my stronger moments are when I decide to focus on my plan, regardless. And I feel that if I can do it under the most difficult of circumstances, then maybe if things don't work out for some reason in my marriage, I will be uberprepared for whatever good things come my way in the future, and I will have an eagle eye for decision making. For now, I try to appreciate that I have a partner who, despite his own challenges, my shortcomings, and many extenuating circumstances, is willing to do this program with me. Not everyone is so lucky.

I really hope what I have to say is helpful for you, and not annoying.

You mentioned that you are burying yourself in your work to get some needs met.

I got to a point in my situation, after about 10 years of marriage where I felt that going to work was the solution. I did get some of my needs met, which helped me tolerate the fact that my husband wouldn't. However, it is a poor substitute for what we really need from our husbands, and it doesn't make it better. I wish that I had known about MB then. What's interesting, is that our relationship eroded further during that time, because I was less able to meet his needs for FC/DS and he was judgmental of that. But it did give me more independent financial power. But in the end, for most women, living in a relationship lacking extraordinary care will damage your ability to do ANYTHING well. Then it becomes more Stress, More Chaos.

Thank you, DidntQuit. No, I did not find that annoying at all. I've been feeling very alone, having a difficult time communicating while so emotional, and I think I started off really badly here, probably because I was redirecting some of my distress at the people trying to help. And I apologize for that.

I understand the importance of not finding other things to fulfill my ENs. And yes, my photography business does do that. But, more importantly it gives me an identity that I have lacked for so many years. Something that makes me feel more important. I'm not just a mom or just a dutiful wife. I need that in my life. I'm an artist and I just spent the last 17 years of my life trying to replace my greatest passion that was painfully stolen from me while holding my husband up and building a family. I went from being one of the top saxophonists at one of the top universities to...Mom. Please don't ask me to sacrifice what I've found. People finally see me again. It'd be nice if my husband did. I know I need to give him the chance to change whether or not he deserves it. I know that I need to change and grow, too, in how I value this marriage, how to respectfully stand my ground, and how to balance my business and my relationship.
The balancing act has me a bit baffled, though. How do I give him that chance while desperately needing some space to process my feelings? I don't understand why this has to feel so forced and rushed. Maybe I feel like I've earned the right to be angry for a bit...and maybe I feel like he doesn't deserve to be angry at me right now. Of course, I know and respect that all feelings are valid.

Why would you think your work would need to be sacrificed? From what I can gather you are both enthusiastic.

I've been wondering if you're enthusiastic about being a SAHM but I don't think anybody would be if they had no recreation.

My mother was alwaysvery firm about her days off and nights out.
I call her Marmee like in Little Women because "You are the sunshine-maker of the family,and if you get dismal there is no fair weather". I would love to see a situation where that happened for you. There's no reason why vacations should be some sort of impossible pipe dream either.

Well, I'm realizing my work time will need to be sacrificed for UA at some point.

Why not embrace the identity of working artist and put your daughter in full-time childcare? Pay for full time care but keep her home and enjoy her if/when you are caught up with work.

You are a working mother and you need appropriate child-care...

I'll be able to do that later this year. I think she'll love that and I look forward to that time for myself and my business.

Ok, I've talked to your husband and I suggest you read what I posted as our situations sound similar. Now I want to talk to you.

I am very glad that you are doing your photography. Good for you!!! I know that your husband has been asleep, but I think you have finally woken him up. So here is what I have to say to you.

Take care of your side of the street. It isn't all his fault. You yourself said that you should have gotten an award for not nagging. Yep, I have that same award. I thought that is what a wife was supposed to do, to be supportive. To help your husband the best you can and raise that family and forget about your own needs... So I hid them. Now how in the world could my husband know that anything was wrong. I would make half hearted attempts to tell him or I would tell myself I shouldn't feel that way. But he was not a mindreader. Neither is your husband. You somehow have this magical idea that he should know exactly what to do and that he alone did all of the hurting. But some of those choices you made yourself. He didn't MAKE you do them. Now maybe you have decided those were not the best choices. I get that. I understand.

I also understand the feeling that he only cares about you because your being incapacitated impacts HIS world, not that he truly cares about you. I believe that has changed, but the only way for him to prove this to you if for you to let him plan the 15 hours. Nothing will get better if you do not.

So may I ask you if you will please try a 6 month experiment. Allow him to plan 15 hours out of the house. You don't have to do a thing. He will do it all. At least try. If at the end of 6 months, nothing has changed or he hasn't followed through, then get a divorce. Don't stay like this. But give him a chance to prove it. I'm not saying you have to open your heart. I'm saying you agree to 15 hours out of the house.

Can you do that?

"Ok, I've talked to your husband and I suggest you read what I posted as our situations sound similar. Now I want to talk to you.
I've been told not to read his thread. Would you mind copying and pasting the part you'd like me to read over here?

I was perfectly willing to plan the UA time even though I still don't see how 15 hours is possible. I don't know what he has said on his thread, but he's told me he completely agrees. We sat down to plan out the time and came up with 8 hours. We ended up sitting down for a discussion the other night and I realized just how far off mark he still is in trying to understand my perspective and I still feel like he is putting on a happy face while he is actually quite angry and bitter. Can't we just let some of that anger on both sides subside before jumping in with aggressive love building attempts? It's just that I feel like I'm getting angrier the MORE time I spend with him right now. I feel out of control and have committed more love busters in the past week than I think I've done our whole marriage. I need some space to cool off. I really wish I could just go on a trip away from all of this and have some time to hear myself think without feeling so much pressure to move forward.
Thank you, hw47. I appreciate your feedback.

Smile,

I've been following your thread. I too went through a very angry and resentful stint, after years as a neglected SAHM building H's career. I don't have any advice really, because looking back, I was SO ANGRY at that time, I don't know that spending a lot of time together would have been positive at the time (although we didn't really have MB as a tool yet, nor was my H trying like yours is). I was definitely in the conflict stage.

What I do want to caution you about is this. You are also at your most vulnerable at this time. Guard yourself against being something you are not. I drank a lot more, cussed a lot more, and had AO's in a way I never had. I LB'd like a crazy woman. Fortunately for me, I like to write, so I would often blog wildly about my innermost thoughts, most of which included very negative and hateful things towards H (one such creation was titled '50 things I hate about you'). But I never showed him any of it, and then when I calmed down, I threw all that venom in the trash. Guard yourself against showing that side of you, because you won't be proud of it after the fact, and you can't undo it.

Also guard yourself against the temptation to get your needs met by other men. That might sound crazy to you but just recognize the fact that in your anger and resentment, you are also weak and vulnerable.

Hopeful is right. Now in retrospect, I take a lot of hard looks at my OWN side of the street. I wasn't always honest about my needs, and when I was it was in a whiney, love busting way.

I neglected myself a lot too. As SAHM's we tend to do this. We feel guilt spending money on ourselves, we feel guilt asking for help doing 'our job'. We create our own dissatisfaction in so many ways. We are the martyr for our family! But, it doesn't make us more attractive or help our family in any way.

One thing that stands out to me is that you are NOT a SAHM. You are a working mom. Just because you don't go to an employer, and are rather self employed as a photographer, does not make that not so. I agree that you need to treat yourself as such, and use daycare to do your work like most working moms do. Don't try to get your work done at night when kids are in bed, or when it impacts your family the least, at the cost of you and your marriage. Treat it like you would a regular job, where you are not also responsible for taking care of a toddler and doing the laundry while you are are working.

I think you will find that if you start using daycare more frequently while you are doing your photography, it will open up a LOT more potential for UA time. You do not need to give up your photography to do this instead.

Why later this year? Do you not plan to *work* until later this year? If you worked for an employer, would you bring you toddler to work with you and tell your employer that you will get daycare 'later this year'? Of course not, you would not work until you had daycare. Your photography business is no different.

Smile,

If your H going to the gym is a source of resentment for you, and he says he will stop going, do you respond by telling him it isn't necessary to stop going?

Thank you, Unwritten. I do not like the person I have become around DH. I'm not having anger issues around others or when I'm alone, so I'm not worried about unhealthy habits. When I recognized this ugly side around DH, I immediately worked to put a stop to it. He then posted here that things were going much better and I was ready for the next step. I wasn't and am still not ready. I just didn't want to be a b****.

Smile

Regarding childcare, I agree that would be a good solution, but we are in a small town and availability is limited. This time of year, I would just be able to get on waiting lists. She's still too young to qualify for the 3 and up care, but I might be able to find something after her birthday. I put a lot of research into childcare in the Summer and Fall. It took 3 months just to get that 2nd day. I had her in a home daycare, but that didn't work out. She is already signed up for preschool in the Fall.
The daycare hunt has been a real pain in the butt.

Smile

Here is what I wrote to him:

"I don't know that that is necessary. It's not the gym that is the problem so much as your ability to make recreational time for yourself during work hours combined with your ability to forget that I was and still am in recovery. It's not such a big deal right now, but this past year, I really needed you. You were able to carve time out for the gym, but not for me while I was overdoing things within a month of surgery. You disappear off to work and are unaware of what I do to keep this family going or how much pain I'm in. Especially over the summer, it would have been really nice if you had altered your work hours so I wasn't left alone so much. I think being forced to resume full-time mom duties too soon is a big part of why my recoveries have taken longer than they should have and you don't have any idea how hard it is to be in pain for such a long period of time. It's not the gym or the work that's the problem, but what has come across as a selfish approach to those things when I needed you most."

I think I've just developed a habit of telling him what I need and then giving him an opportunity to avoid doing it...he has consistently taken the out.
For instance, during the long drive to one of my doctor appointments, I told him that I wish he could just look me in the eye and tell me that he'd love me no matter what...even if we never had sex again. In the brief silence that followed, I saved him and said, "but, I would never do that to you."
He never replied.
I reminded him of that during our "discussion" the other night (I saw that as a fight, but he doesn't agree) and he asked if he could say it now. Not sure why he asked, but when he said it, I didn't feel anything.

I need to find my copies of Lovebusters and His Needs, Her Needs. They are in a box in the basement somewhere. I can't even remember if I wrote in the LB book, but I don't remember him engaging in the exercises. Too long ago to remember. I know I've developed quite a few LBs that need to be addressed even if he wasn't able to tell me what they were.

You might want to get new copies, since both have been revised in recent years. It is a good idea to get 2 copies of Lovebusters and go through the chapters together, highlighting things that stand out to you both. You can then exchange your books to see what stood out to the other person. Each chapter closes with some lessons. Another great resource is the workbook, Five Steps to Romantic Love.


I just want to point that people fall in love based on how well their needs are met. If you won't meet his needs, he will fall out of love. Just as you would fall out of love with him if he stopped meeting your needs. That is the whole basis of the Love Bank, which you can read about here:

The Love Bank

Loving you "no matter what" falls in the category of unconditional love, which you may not have meant. If you did, Dr Harley writes about it here: What's Wrong with Unconditional Love? (Part 1)

In your example, you are telling him to tell you that he feels a certain way, but are holding him accountable for not telling you that. You are even bringing it up in subsequent conversation. Can you see how disrespectful this is? It is a DJ to tell him how he feels, and a double whammy to tell him to TELL YOU that he feels that way. Not only does it put him on the spot, but it does not encourage RH at all, can you see this? You are basically telling him to agree to do something that is not honest, but then holding him accountable if he doesn't do it.

When I first read the book Lovebusters, I thought, wow we are lucky we don't do any of these things! Ha, what a joke. We practice many LB's in our marriage that we are having to work hard to conquer, but they do become so ingrained it is very difficult to see them.

I wanted to point out that you are giving this as an example of 'telling him what you need,' but in reality you are committing a love buster by DJing him.

You basically said, I need you to tell me that even if you never get your EN's met, you will still love me unconditionally. As ML pointed out, this is not something the Marriage Builders program supports at all.

No, you're right.
I didn't mean it that way. The precursor to that was me asking what would have happened if I'd gotten cancer and couldn't have sex for several months due to treatment. I never intended it to sound like forever. The point there was more of what if I had an really obvious medical reason to abstain for a long period of time...would he still be bitter? Of course, I DID have a really obvious medical reason to abstain and he didn't see that.
Anyhow, he wasn't giving me enough time to heal from my surgeries before telling me he was unhappy because he wasn't getting enough sex and it was usually nonverbal communication that I could not ignore. I could tell he was making a great effort not to bring it up, but I was also dealing with the not so subtle hints along with the side effects of him not getting enough, so the guilt was their anyway. His attempts at hiding his feelings from me don't work so well. I never tried hiding my feelings from him until the past couple of months. I'm sick of complaining and I'm sick of spelling everything out for him. I really honestly, just need some space.

I saw my therapist last night and she's going to read up on the MB concepts, especially UA, since that seems to be a big area of personal conflict for me.

"I just want to point that people fall in love based on how well their needs are met. If you won't meet his needs, he will fall out of love. Just as you would fall out of love with him if he stopped meeting your needs. That is the whole basis of the Love Bank"
Well, yeah. That's why I always had sex with him even when I didn't want to and even when I was in a great deal of pain.

Smile

This whole paragraph is a huge DJ. You are saying he complained with 'non verbal communication', which would be what? He is making an effort, and you are reading between the lines to decide how he feels, and then holding HIM accountable to that. He is in a lose/lose situation.

He would come up to me at my computer and stroke my arm or kneel down next to me. I'd either tell him okay and we'd go have sex, or I'd tell him I didn't want to have sex (usually because I was hurting too much--no, it wasn't a lie) and he'd just slink away and go to his computer. There was never any indication that I was misreading his body language. I've told him many times that I really wish there was intimacy between us that did not have to lead to intercourse.
He'd often get mopey when he wanted sex (not a huge turn on). We were already at the point where he wasn't initiating anymore because any kind of rejection was too painful for him. I did my darnedest to initiate once a week. I knew he was looking at porn nightly regardless and he had started getting insistent that we be more adventurous and fun. Turns out fun sex isn't very easy when you can't lay on your stomach, sides, or even lean over to pick something up. I had maybe a month or two all last year where I could lay UNcomfortably on my side. So, it pissed me off when I decided to have sex with him and he'd push me to do something other than lay on my back when that was the ONLY position that resulted in discomfort...everything else was too painful and I told him as much. I developed a take what you can get or go away attitude. And he got really sad and mopey. Now he is pretty much sad and mopey whenever we talk and I'm pretty unpleasant about it. It is NOT attractive. I took a picture of him (with his permission) to show him what I'm seeing and why that's part of why I don't want to spend time with him. I promise I wasn't doing it to be mean. I really want him to see through my eyes for a moment.

He'd do the same "nonverbal" communicating when I was in bed hopped up on hydrocodone and already starting to fade. Rarely, I would bring up the topic of sex because I was starting to feel so resentful. That resulted in him telling me how hard he was working to make me happy. There was a point this past summer where I seemed to get through to him that I didn't want him to work hard to make me happy if it was just to get more sex. I needed and appreciated the extra work he was doing while I was in recovery and I loved him for that. I explained to him that it had gotten to the point where everything he did around the house seemed to be with the hopes I'd reciprocate in the form of SF (he seemed to agree on that point). I also explained that I was overwhelmed with guilt because I felt like I couldn't ask friends for help anymore knowing I couldn't pay them back anytime soon and that it was really hurting me that I felt that same guilt with him.
Honestly, I don't want to ask him for help with anything anymore. I'm tired of feeling like I owe him.

Hugs to you Smile.

I posted to your husband. He claims he has been your "hero" for the last 15 yrs and only been a monster for the last 4 mos...8 mos to a lesser degree. I challenged him on that description based on what you have written and he has not responded to my last post in any way. So I will ask you directly...has H been your hero throughout your marriage aside from the last 4-8 mos? Is that an accurate description? Did/do you tell him this?

I would like to remind the OP that the purpose of this forum is to help people learn and implement Marriage Builders concepts. I don't see this thread being used for that purpose. This is not a place to vent but a place to learn the program. If there is not a specific question that is being asked, we will lock this thread.

I understand, Denali. Bad habit.

In an attempt to stick to MB terms, I'm still struggling with balancing the understood necessity for UA with the POJA in the sense that I really don't want to be close to DH until I can somehow know that he's not just doing what he thinks I want him to do, or in this case, what MB concepts and friends are telling him to do. This as opposed to understanding and really wanting to do these things because he cares about me. In the past, the trend seemed to be that he does things for me to increase his chances of getting SF in return and when I realized that, I stopped feeling loved and he got horribly frustrated that all of his efforts were seemingly wasted (even though the things he was doing were necessary to keep our household functioning).

I've spent our marriage doing everything I could to avoid creating resentment on his part. I fear getting close to him and feeling love for him again, because I hate the person I have become as his wife. I hate the subservient wife who was scared to say no or even stand her ground and I hate the angry person I am toward him right now. I guess I feel fairly confident things will be better as long as I can figure out a middle ground, but I'm not at all confident I can do that. And even more so, I'm not confident that DH can sustain this new approach to marriage where he does things for me out of love and respect as opposed to slipping IOUs into my love bank.

Black Raven, I need to think about your question. I certainly don't remember ever referring to DH as my "hero". I'm not sure why he would say that both because I don't remember saying that and I don't know what telling people that would achieve. That makes it sound like I've been idolizing him our whole marriage.

Smile

SmileADay, what is your specific question for the posters?

I guess my question is the first sentence of my last post:
"How do I balance the understood necessity for UA with the POJA...?"

I stated it that way because I think there has been an attempt to answer this, but I'm still struggling with how to make that work if I don't WANT to fall back in love with him until I trust his deeper intentions.

I agree which is why I asked.

Either you have been dishonest.

He is being dishonest or at least has an untruthful idea of himself.

Or there is some combination of both but there is dishonesty and that is a big issue.

You would schedule 20-25 hours of UA time per week. worksheet here In addition you would need to learn to use the POJA by learning how to negotiate your decisions. There is a chapter on this in His Needs, Her Needs. I would work on that AFTER you have eliminated love busters and are well into getting your UA time.

• "The reason I have so much difficulty getting couples to spend time alone together is that when I first see them for counseling, they are not in love. Their relationship does not do anything for them, and the time spent with each other seems like a total waste at first. But when they spend time together, they learn to re-create the romantic experiences that first nurtured their love relationship. Without that time, they have little hope of restoring the love they once had for each other."

• "But fifteen hours a week is usually not nearly enough time for couples that are not yet in love. To help them jump-start their relationship, I usually suggest twenty-five or thirty hours a week of undivided attention until they are both in love with each other again."

• "Your time together is too important to the security of your marriage to neglect. It's more important than time spent doing anything else during the week, including time with your children and your job. Remember that the time you should set aside is only equivalent to a part-time job. It isn't time you don't have; it's time you will use for something less important, if you don't use it for each other."

• "You have 168 hours every week (24x7) to schedule for something. I highly recommend 8 hours of sleep a night, so that leaves 112 waking hours. Getting ready for the day, and going to bed at night may require, say, 12 hours, and work plus commute may take another 50 hours. That leaves 50 more hours to spend doing what you value most, and 15 of those hours should be dedicated to maintainng a passionate and fulfilling marriage."

The Policy of Undivided Attention


The program focuses on actions and not intentions. Intentions won't change your marriage but actions will. It is a series of behavioral changes that will make the difference in your marriage. As long as your husband is committed to taking those actions, your marriage can change and you can fall in love again.

I don't think either of us are being dishonest. I think I must have said something to him at some point and that his how he heard it. As I've been able to get him to open up recently, I've noticed that happening a lot, which is a big part of why I've felt so invisible and misunderstood. The long term norm has been for him to bottle all of his feelings up and pretend they don't exist. I think if there is any dishonesty going on, he is being dishonest with himself.

Has he been your hero for the past 15 yrs aside from the last 4-8 mos?

Yes or No, please.

Has he been your hero for the past 5 yrs aside from the last 4-8 mos?

Yes or No?

MelodyLane, I understand all of that. Maybe my question isn't clear. I'm trying to again say that I do not feel safe falling back in love with him at this time. I do not think that is a good idea for our long term success because of the risk of us falling back into old patterns or him holding even more resentment toward me because he doesn't quite understand or buy into this concept of separating his ENs from mine. IOW, fulfilling my needs doesn't equate to me owing him something. I will do things for him because I'm in love with him and want him to be happy. This, I believe, is where I have sorely failed in our marriage. I did love him, but I think I did things for him (sex and allowing him to do things that hurt me) out of guilt and obligation.

He has never been my "hero".

SmileADay, since there is not a question being asked of posters, we are going to lock this thread. If you change your mind and decide to use the Marriage Builders program, please let us know and we will unlock it so you can get help and guidance in the steps. Thank you.